« Jocko Podcast

374: Know Your Strengths, Know Your Weaknesses, Know Your Attributes, Know Yourself. With Rich Diviney

2023-02-22 | 🔗

Rich draws upon 20+ years of experience as a Navy SEAL Officer where he completed more than 13 overseas deployments – 11 of which were to Iraq and Afghanistan. Through his career, he has achieved multiple leadership positions – to include the Commanding Officer of a Navy SEAL Command.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is jacobite gas number three. Seventy four with echo charles and me jogger willing good evening echo that either. I found myself in a sea one thirty lumbering through the sky at twenty thousand feet, one late spring night. When inside an airplane or a helicopter that say, sensation of height is muted As far as the physical senses are concerned, you might as well be standing in a small wobbly room or sitting in an uncomfortable chair, but once we reached the right attitude, I in the tail standing on an open ramp, staring into a pitch black abyss and getting ready to throw myself into it. Did I mention that I hate heights the fear response is an interesting thing. There are some basic physiological reactions common to most people increasing pulse and respiration dilation of the pupils, but others are
using craddock mine, a yawn I know it sounds weird and I it was too. But what I know now know is that yawning is just my bodies, way of trying to re, regulate my breathing taken more, oxygen and set access, my parasympathetic nervous system, of course, the outward appearance of this suggests the complete opposite of fear, which is handy when you dont want people to know that you're nervous, but I was I was now every time I got ready to jump. I was practising the most difficult level of of skydiving high altitude high burning or hey ho, jump from around twenty thousand feet. Count to four then pull the cord the pair. It opens it about. Nineteen thousand feet which mean there's a long flight to distant landing zone. This training done during the day and at night with
nighttime proficiency being the goal, which is why I was standing at the back of that sea, one thirty yawning in the black sky, several things jumping from that height, more difficult ones a cold, it is up their average air temperature differentials are proxies. Three degrees per thousand feet. This means that, if its reasonable to sixty degrees, when you board the aircraft, you can expect the air to be bone chilling, subs your temperature. When you jump out There is also very little oxygen at that height at sea level. The air is almost twenty one percent oxygen at twenty thousand feet. It plummets to less than ten percent. Were there that thin you're out sk of altitude sickness, which the myriad of symptoms, ranging from dizziness fatigue and headache to massive confusion, shortness of breath and completely of consciousness. This means you have jump with an auction canister and mask and that's on top of full combat
year blister comment and because its pitch dark night vision, goggles, that's a lot of equipment juggle, which only adds to the list skills needed to survive a halo, jump yet I'd mastered all those skills I'd made does of hay, HO jumps yet minor serves quickened every time I stood at that open, ramp, those skills mattered. If I couldn't, force myself out of the dam door in times of high stress and great discomfort skills are enough. That is where attributes come in. That right there is next excerpt from a book called the attributes
when five hidden drivers of optimal performance written by rich diversity and the book focuses on uncovering attributes required for success in any endeavour and also how to evaluate and improve those attributes and the author he is a retired seal officer. Sir, over twenty years in the navy deployed. A dozen times eleven of those two points were to arise. Afghanistan he served in leadership positions at every level and and also ran the assessment and selection for them maritime component of the job special operations command, which we called J sock and it's an honor to have him. with us here tonight to talk about his experiences and lessons learned and, of course will dive in to these attributes rich factual, coming down there.
Thanks juggle honour to be here. We are glad it got to have you are and are we write and into each other in some unfortunate circumstances, but glad We are the link up and get the operator you to pass on some these lessons. So these hard earned lessons that you have, which includes being the most comfortable position with gears? apt all over your body off the back of a sea. Thirty, the middle of the night good times Let's, let's just before we jumper the book, let's jump to just how'd. You ended up here how you eddie there, So where are you bore? Your connecticut can harm the kinetic, a kid and surprising, if, as you surprising, how many team guys that discovered when I went to seal training, how many guys or from connecticut knock heat a lot, but a big, populous sudden what it is meant zone in the war. I always found it rare on or not.
I would have you ever met a guy from connecticut. I was like wall right on. All I know is that were at when I first joined up within the first few years. I met at least a dozen or more duties from connecticut. Did you ever hear that thing that, when they researched who could make it through, but they are trying to figure out thing that they figured out those two things they only improve the chance of making through, but like almost almost immeasurable trail him out there, but it was wrestlers and people for new what have you read that I heard wrestlers I didn't you have people from doing went, and I also heard rowers- and I have a theory on that- one too, but we can t which are theory on rowers so well This resolution rowers and what I I think, one of the weak one, The primary attributes required there's one most important attribute required to get through buds, its compartmentalization civility too. assess your environment immediately prioritize what you need to focus on and then focus on that until completion? and so you think, about a roar, and I never road competitively. But I've talked to many rose
a rower is someone who is sitting in a boat and is part of a team and has to literally just row until they puke and if they if they even break their rhythm for a second, they mess up the whole team, so it's literally a selfless sacrifice in in a in a team effort that they just have to get it out. till her diamond, it is, is cut of one of the most intense compartmentalization moments, I think, was the average length of one of those races in time. I have. I have no idea due in two thousand meters, something I'm search like sprinting in terms they have different difference distances, but none of them are are short we have to keep it together for along I long to hear to to an end and to and to not to even dip a little bit is going to affect the team which is fascinating to me and, of course, wrestlers. I think you know, and I would actually put any fighting discipline into this category. This idea that you are. You are in a ring with another human, so too highly uncertain situation.
And you have to u have to compartmentalize and have basically adapt ever What you're, seeing and you are often being viewed by by the external so to to give up in any capacity is going to mean injury or least of or or or I guess least of fate, or least favoured embarrassment, injury embarrassments. I think I think those those sport talk about. I I do. I typically don't talk about attributes in the athletic endeavors, because most most sports are fairly certain environments other than a few, and the few that I do talk about are fighting sports climbing. In some cases, rowing is pretty certain, but I think combat realization is. He has definitely affected that one, but jerk Jeff so you're born in connecticut? What would your parents It was a lawyer. Mom stayed state on with kids perfect no. She was a semi professional pianist, so she used to spend most of today's practicing piano, which was either
We call a really annoying. Well, you don't funny yeah, it was. I thought it was. I thought it was annoying within a framework of earth man, that's really nice! That right and I recognise I recognize I do love classical music. I don t know I dont over index on it, I do have a love for and so so the it it was. It was nice, but yeah, really nice shouted twin brother, older sister, younger brother too, and was there any military in your family? Now none my dad was a private pilots, so he go flying on the weekends and, as we take us all up and my twin brother and I got hooked from the from the beginning- and you know he presented in the miss in the right seat and We'D- help help him steer the aircraft, and so my favorite, my two favorite books growing up were chuck eggers ago, autobiography yeager and the right stuff, and I read those I mean a dozen times, and all I wanted to do was be a fighter pilot and I awoke world war. Two world war, two fighter pilot, that's all, but but we had this bent on joining or go out first air.
and we found out that the navy guys land on ships are like well bilaterally right, so so those navy. Although This was pre top gun and top unjust made. It made it even worse. The others and wild thing of one of my bodies. Dave burke, good! Do yes, they have thing: where did they call it getting aboard and basically there's some people that can't do that that last which is land the boat on the plane on the boat, and he this one body that decided the marine corps and set it on the air force and he made it all the way through train was an f pilot and the law thing that he needed to do is get aboard, couldn't get aboard and so if he would have been in an f fifteen pilot in the air force or pilot, he would have been good to go. But he couldn't get aboard his ass. Like that last little I think I remember, reading an article navy pilot and of course I was absorbing as much as I could back then, and a navy pilot was quoted as saying imagine, putting a poachers postage stamp in the middle of a of a large rug, turning out the lights and the
jumping and landing on that poacher stamp with your tongue. Yeah sounds like that's the one, that's pretty good! What sport do you? You said you did row. What sports did you play? I I tried everything when I was a kid back, then you could, you didn't have to start a they didn't they didn't. They didn't put like a baseball glove with the only sport for you. That's right, you're going to be a champ depending on where your grow up. Nowadays, you have to start. If you don't start early, you're, not gonna, make the high school team were out so anyway, I tried in grown up when I, when I got high school, I decided I loved ice hockey, but I couldn't skate well enough to make the team, so I decide to play lacrosse I felt like it was going to have a land version of ice hockey, and so I I walked on the team freshman year never having played played for years and was captain by the end of it by my senior year, says: legit So that was that was at the only sport you played, I mean I did track. I did track in the winter to get in shape for lacrosse, but that was yeah. That was about. And then what are you thinking about? The merits of this is high school. You think about the military. Oh yeah, nato,
bent on navy, and so we were the kids in it were the kids who had made pictures of of jets I mean, are inaudible or notebooks. I had it all over my room, pictures of tom cruise tom cruise, but but yeah jets. And yes, I was yeah. We were known god of those who knew us in highschool. They knew that if any boys wanted to go in the military so and then, so, then your plan was to obviously be a pilot. You have to be an officer see now you know you gotta go to college yeah and where'd. You end up going to college, so went to first year to an aviation school down at embry riddle brutal down in florida. My brother went to F, I t down in florida and the plant Let's get are let's startling a fly or maybe get our pilots licences and go. Oh yes, but after about a year there were half a year there I realized. Well. First of all, I I realized getting you know, paying twenty thousand dollars a year to get your pilot's license right to make sense. A major avionics, which I wasn't good at all my brother,
did get his license, but we also realise that the doors after the top gun kind of surge, the doors for slots for us. Yes, we're closing so we're like now we should try fauna and already seen it, and so we both applied to produce and then transferred to Peru and down. I join the are to see it earned a scholarship there. My brother did not, but he went some after some years of kind of figure out what you gonna do, went down. Marine PLC join the marines and then, various for three or twenty years. So at what point did you realize you don't want to be a pilot? It was I didn't want to be a pilot. It was awesome I always have after the first gulf war, there was a newsweek article that I saw, and it was it basically had a guy's face on. It was camouflage and said it was like special special operations forces right, and so I this article and dumb it was. It was about seven pages and talk about all the speck ops unit, so army navy, airforce
went through those seven pages, there were probably twenty. Twenty five pictures of guys know do differ things underwater in the snow, skydiving desert jungle and I recognise that out of the twenty five pictures like twenty of them were seals. There was just in different environments, and I was like who are these guys right, and so I started. I start reading bottom and dumb I went to school. I still had made a decision. One thousand aren't you see, but ultimately I said itself. While I know I can be a pilot, but I don't want to. I don't want wonder if I could be a seal and so so what that direction? And, fourthly, I believe and how did you I mean this is what's what year is this? This is not well graduated in ninety six, so it might be nineties yeah. I don't want to see yourself. Did you How hard was it to get a bill? It well, it was difficult to me. There are only they only my ear. They only accepted eleven roxy guys nationwide, and I did- and I was sixteen o k, big eyes, and so I was able to link up with a guy in connecticut who was running he. Basically he just
the programmer. He just he was of Earl. He was a a retired reserve seal, a captain, bisset and and and he had helped a couple of guys get through the you know get to the get through the pipeline. and so I looked up at him. He started in helping me with the physical tasks which I arrived at the back, then I did. I think it did eleven pull for my for, like its estimates, which would mean me, I would even yo gotten close to making today. but he also, I think what he really did was introduced me to some active seals. I drove down a deceit and meet with them a captain down there. Gotta recommendations, I met with them, they gave me recommended And then he helped me put together a package which I then gave to my archie, see you If they don't really know how to do the same thing, in fact, during our summer cruises there's there was something called many buds and I remember you know being at my union going to my my unit officer and saying hey: can I go to many but sees a golf or let me look into that and so a couple days later, seagal you know, there's no more billets for many boats as a girl can check, and so I went on a normal lady crews,
act like one ownership, her in san diego they throw my white and just walked into the buds supported. His aching show me run but ironic I get the buds? I realised that actually there were bullets or extra bullets for RT, see that that he didn't know about so extra extra extra academy guys got to got to go that year, so I never got too many buds. So this was ninety ninety six, you say I remember there was a time period where they were, cutting guys like the officers were just the kind of like off the charts I know ivy league guys that road crew and were captain of the football team in all this stuff- and then they kind of act away from that, because they had these guys that were basically there's there's several issues that they run into. I'm sure we could run into the attributes what it was, but a lot of them were just they were just there to do for years and your ticket, you can get the call, and then get out and move on with the rest, their life. other guys just didn't, have any common sense type thing into the they kind of opened up
to open up their minds as to who they were recruiting. So it sounds like you know, you're what laughing you're saying you only eleven pull ups It is one of those things where you know you look at a bunch of guys and this guy can do fifty, and this guy can do forty two and this guy can do thirty eight and this guy and this guy can do eleven. I frankly being able to do pull is not necessarily mean translate to any part of being a being an actual seal seal officer for sure, and so you know, obviously you must add some other characteristics that they looked at and thankfully they did because now I was also talking to a guy that worked but a little while ago, and any you know he was simply talking about the fact that sometimes guys that are but like france and bad runners he's a guy if the guy can't keep up with his boat, diskettes run out of the boat and that's it is done. and he says, and you and I both know- and we all know like being
a good runner does not necessarily make someone a good seal. No, no, you don't should fascinating, and I think you can. You can agree with this because you were actually in the pre war seal teams longer than I was, but when I got to the seal teams, the ninety seven or so you got me, I want to see him. I recognise that all the quote best seals were, or those who are considered the bed deals where all the best p tiers. They are the guys who came up first on the runs and all that stuff and pt was kind of the measure at the time cause These massive team pities every day is good for morale standpoint. I think that's you know, that's something we lost in the war, but but what are as is won, the war started all those guys turned the disappear. I mean that did it didn't. You know the guys who are actually good war good at the job, that does measurements left right and so so absolute right. I think the default tends to be physical, because it's it's a measurable and you can see it, but we all know those dark horses van you. Now you gotta, but this
This is why we have a fire in the gut ward and blood stripe, because you know, I don't think they have it anymore. Oh, really, okay! Well, that's! Oddly enough, it is odd, yeah yeah, I don't have it yeah you know. When I got to team, I saw wanted out. I got a team one and I would say there was a little bit over. There was alone but a of a line between like people that were good at running in and the numerous people that were considered to be like good team guys and those sometimes the good runners, were also good team guys, but sometimes the team guys weren't great runners, and it really boiled down to like how good they were at doing the job of getting the field and that's what counted and all though I think from like maybe senior leadership would look, go disguised our best runner. He must be a great seal and yet
it certainly is, but, as has been our last draft just not as to non runners here yeah we can testify. I've never been. I've never been accused of whiting rudiger, and I was I was doing. I was going to school at. I first got the buds I was goon squad and I was literally on the weekends practicing my ronnie iran on the beach on the soft sand, because I'd related done it. And slowly I got up to the end to the edge of the pack of the back and then into the middle, and but I was so where you put. So how preferred were you or what information did you have to? Well? You know I mean books back were you hard to find a brave men dark waters? Yo or kelly road of couple there was one commandos, which was probably the most recent. It was kind of them at the time, the most recent book in a kind of outline how weak so So I had a sense of what was going on that be something special. Recording. Video are you? That's all you need right.
ultimately I think I can say I wasn't prepare enough- but you know when I there. I just I reckon I say I just had to do with any- to deal and dumb. Even Of course I mean you know again on the weekends or after work. I was going to practice the one course I was running on sands. You know just to get going because I said I just have to have to do it so and what I knew I could do. I think one of the things I recognize it buds fairly quickly was that actually wasn't about the physical. It was about just keep going ghetto and down and almost come to the sense that hey there's only I push ups that someone can make me do until I can't do any more and at that point they're going to get wet. It's like okay, so I'll get you know and I'll be cool off and I'll go do more, pushups right, so so you'll, come to a recognition that you're going to get to zero and just do what you can at zero. And I think that's that's what that's what that's? What they're looking for they're looking for that recognition and that almost that comfort in that?
in fact, this year, I'll just keep going even slow, I'll. Just keep moving so not going to give up is there thing that was especially challenging real, while running was spry the most challenging, especially beach running here I would say: the water stuff, I always loved the water stuff. So if there is anything so drown proving was pretty much my favorite thing to do because it was a time known with screwing with you, so armor it have dogging ponies and yadda yadda buds causative, it's say: hey. We need volunteers to do these dog opponents. I'd always volunteer for drown, proofing cause. It was the time they'd leave me alone. You know for thirty minutes I could just bob in the in the pool. So and poor carbon everything you are just good, no water! Would you would you go
women. I grew up yeah. I grew up in connecticut right on the long island sound. So I was always a water rat, so yeah everything water related. I was comfortable doing. I had to I'd learned to scuba dive in college just deliberately and just recognize I just loved, I just I loved being in the water underwater, so poor copy I was It wasn't an issue for me: have eaten and you're, obviously ahead, the normal stress for, but I I was able to get get done. The first time yeah, it's weird if you're lucky enough to have that comfort, I mean Some deeds are just petrified if every water revolution and usually don't make It- I mean this- is not a good way to roll into it. You're petrified of drown, proofing, petrified of life, saving petrified, if not tie, that's right just having that hanging over your time. Well, especially if the fail a few times and then you have to do it the way the weekend and do it again,
but you haven't you bring good point because I think you know a lot of people and you I'm sure you ve had this. They ve described seals as fearless, and I can't stand that description because it's out, none of us are fearless. You know, because in a curry require sphere, and all of us have little things that were like it. We risk where we don't like it. You know that, team guys who love skydiving in they hate diving. Thirteen guys like me, who love diving, I don't like skydiving climbing is nothing is I would never climb on my free time or bunch, egypt right, but I think every single one of us. We learn how to move through it. And so you hope it Every guy has something they like about about the job, but, but regardless of who you're talking to that person had to move through some fear hereafter to some suffrage. After just suck up a totally worth your while there's another his guests, I guess I've, always you know- and I got asked by- is why would a bunch of sailors they wanted to be seen
so I was on a ship. I did a one ship deployment as in elena and they said hey, sir, could you just give us thirty minutes and talk to us about being a seal sausage or when I got them all in a room is about tenable and I said, it. By saying this I said: listen I want all you know. When you're a navy seal when you're doing the job. Ok, there's never any cool music plank, and there's no there's no like girls on the side or beers, it it always sucks right they will. The teams will take that the fun out of everything it diving it's cold. It's dark its dirty for skydiving, its nighttime, you you're walking out of there. Nothing is ever cool the coolest. is at the end, when you look back at what you did and you're having a beer whatever, but you have to get that in your hand. I think I think buds slams at into your head. They won right. You come in with this mythology and like all cool and suddenly like wholly crap. What the hell is this and so let us supporting that whole premises. The fact that its in corn, otto California, it's right what you're driving. In view of this,
it's gonna to san. You drive over to Coronado. As you drive over this beautiful bridge, look down a corner. We literally looks like a movie depiction of. a little heavenly neighbourhood, and it almost is with a hotel reigns as it addresses just this beautiful place sonny. reaches our sons out beautiful beach and somehow they can take that well. It's gets that people think southern californian waters is actually went on a run. This morning I hit the beaches at my west coast ritual. I always go down to coronado and take a run, and so I hit the beach at five am I was like: okay, cool five am normally on the beach right. I get there and immediately realized that it's high tide writer sounds like ok, it's cold because its call its discovery was forty five priorities, I or so so I start running within the first hundred yards. The waves crash over my feet. This is out of the sand, is soft right. I started laughing. I was just pitifully miserable and down- and I think that's what you really start to restart the relish that stuff, so
so how weak you get down with that. You get done with poor comp done with my work, receive you get on with buds down yet did you what are you doing I'd guy rolled from the side in a technically ass, I started with two annihilated there there there in doc, but before to another, Classed up officially they're like hey, there are too many officers in the class were rolling when a roll. The three slowest runners so I got to, and so I never classed up with two oh nine, but I saw it so I started with two to ten and I graduate to ten and then, where where'd you go from there you gotta, ask anyone in hawaii but dead, the time classic budgeting. You know we graduate April ninety eight and there were no. There is apparently no, although no money to p p c s. Officers
answer like hey we're going to keep you here and you'll. Do your stv school because back then it was in san diego. So we waited we lived in. He had just lived in apartments until summer that year the stv school went to jump school and then I checked in january ninety january, ninety eight to stv team, one and then you get out there. What did you want to go to stevie periodic the water? in for it well, so knows and as I would. My plan was to you, but when you gotta buds, as you will testify, every expressly back, then everybody I dont twenty, he s. So I got I got worried about us, dvds my dream. She I put two always goes it's cause. I want to go and I got std one so chair, but I wasn't upset. I was like okay, this is cool because I I did love diving. I love that. I love that aspect of it and to be able to have done that I thought was pretty froggy so and then you get there when you get put into
attitude like how's that working out yeah it was. It was a little bit. We were a little bit delay. There was a platoon that was already formed up. My one of my you know my best friend he's an admiral. Now he and I were were- were kind of put in holding got to do an exercise with one of the foods went out to the middle east in an exercise and then play tuned up a little bit late, but did one platoon and deployment and out to the outer the middle east you're kind of wanted italy's quite a bit back then we're out therein and we archie out there in bahrain when the coal, the use. Called on, she did some response to that. So yeah did one deployment as an ally, see their recipes. And then what was the next up certain to be so Well, I was I'd always wanted to go to the east coast and specifically sealed into cars all the books back. Then, you know we're older books. They focused on one saturday morning. And so you say you got to you just you and I just miss each other. Did too yeah cause. I I left there in two thousand the spring of the others
yeah, I'm thousand, and I was actually in january, two thousand one ass. It is where did you go straight to opportune commander? No yet again I was delayed. I did a I the only way I could get seal team to you know intersects with my my buddy, and I we call the detail for detail are from hawaii and both of us want to go east coast, so he gets on Well, the first thing I'd like to do in a like an oh, I see on the east coast and the guys I gotta have one a teammate he's: a cool ticket, so he's like my buddy's year. So I got on the phone yeah. I want to noisy on the east coast cause that was my last one sounds awful. if by a phone call boosted by a phone call yo, but he said he said I you know. If you want, you can do in illinois, oh yeah back then there we were deploying guys on ships on both carriers and and martens, and they usually put a sea officer as an elena on their ships and set up, as has size sadly citizen can I go to certain team issues that he's yeah. You know you need do in illinois. I said I'll. Do it on elano, but I want to do a carrier how to want to do a bark, because I of love aviation. I just wanna he's a deal,
so I went checked in and then did. I did my first employment with the John F Kennedy battle group, hesitant olano on that carry This is crazy. So up my put soon at your team to was the sea if the platoon we want on the uss. John F Kennedy are you gonna, say last conventional carrier, so yeah it was actually actually turned out to be a great deployment. We I mean I've, seen nine eleven happened, Is that why you're on deportment no exact? We do where we deployed we were actually getting underway for comp two x on nine eleven god. I heard the word come through. Actually I was tied up it just shutters. I know the echo charles- these are big, like fleet exercises that you're doing in the whole fleets out there, all these ships and you're going to get tan with all these missions- and it's just is this The operation complication for two weeks. That's right, that's right, yeah and and- and the battle group got underway on the morning of september. Eleventh is all the news. All the news reports said that there was a a strike battle group that got
underway within hours of the attack which is collected I wouldn't it wouldn't happen that way, right with you happen to be within hours, and so and so we actually steamed right up to the east coast off the east coast of Virginia there. I flew off and went to the teams checking to see what was going on and to get a sense of everything so and then You guys did that, but then did you go on a normal day. I still got back from there pluto platoon up as an oh, I see and and started that work up and then, of course, then Iraq was kicking off, and so because we were, you know our patented pretty well known in the training. Our ceo sent us to Iraq was that what you know as two thousand and four two thousand and four Oh so I remember when you guys showed up you guys, did you guys go up north? Did you go so we started up north and then and then came down south and we took over the the security mission yeah. We started it yeah, so
My I had a very lucky career like got up and went home in a few months later, you guys were doing the security, yeah yeah and then So how was your work up when your platoon commander rate was, it was standard, you know, did the opposite of the unity of the individual. links alibis. Whether schools and we did our our our platoon training- did all our schools, back then it was all well as you remember, they had just implemented the the the nsw two thousand forced twenty one meaningless, go brill. If the idea we we didn't know that it was going to be so brilliant right because it just set us up to deploy in such a perfect way and but Haven't they haven't changed the the train programmes. We did all the regular boxing mobility dieting. Seek you see all that stuff and dumb? and then went straight to a whim move when we went out there. We want europe to muzzle and started there. The other side
relax. We didn't see you guys. So you guys literally turned over. That sounds a team, seven you guys arrived in all. I want home sometime around April, but you guys, I think you guys might have showed up. We might. I might a high fived a couple of guys that I do from team two and then you guys rolled straight up to muzzle right after I think you guys had people had stayed down in back. As well, yeah. We had some Elinor guys you stay down, which is also fortuitous, based on the fact that we, all after after few, after a month and a half all went down to baghdad to start run that that ps demanded gus chop under the team, one seo No one was hurt. to seal on deployments her. He was under point with us all and if so, what happened was the team? One ceo stayed out west to continue running direct action and our team to seo ran the the ps3 ignition god it s about seals. Redeployed
god. It's ok, you up now and now I'm remembering and also the I reckon through the marseilles like death. One of the first marines showed up yup, and that was called to cause a bunch of those guys I had done when I was an endless got. I did two back to back argue platoons out here at team, one wow, and so we knew all these force recognise and allows for three guys became the debt one guys are we high fibre those guys as well and had the good times near so so that deployment you do it bit of direct as yourself up north yeah, a little bit of da up north only about a month and a half, and then I get drawn down a psd and yeah. That was a diplomat, and that was the focus for the teams for like a year and a half before the rule to pass at all. I know that the mission was there was a bunch of iraqi leadership government leadership that everyone in the country, while a lot of people in the country, wanted to kill yeah and they had to keep those
individual, safe, I mean from a strict jack level, those guys had to stay alive, and so this an incredibly important mission. I mean it was The high or low measures now the emissions, and I support mission in the in the iraq war at that time and was to keep these waters one of them right. Seventy of the p m, the president couple, others of and yeah, and then YAP seven with seven different deed, elsie it why. That is why I was on a call about a month ago with what retired, now gentle george casey, and he was out there in charge of the whole effort. and I was telling hey, I was out there and he's a gap remedy guys. All you want do I like it here. get us out of this mission. Get us is it which meets because you know we are. We can only do it for so long that wasn't our primary metal so but again it you know it's his idea, ya think gum seals, spec operation special operations holistically, are designed to do what you have to do. I mean you could adapt. He can you can mod you? Can you just hey? What's the job? Okay,
the job and we might complainant bitch among the but was still do the job. Well and that's what we did. You have always talked about the fact that you know and we're getting better now, but we You and I were in especially at that time. There was no doctrine on anything right. And so you would know how to do a direct action mission, because some The guide come back and tell you how to do it. The vietnam guys taught us how to do raids, like is all was word of mouth, an occasion you get some photocopied with some weird stick figures out and about what you're patrol formation be but all it was all like work, mouth and then you'd go out and you do it and you to adapt and figured out, and so we didn't have any doctrine which can be a negative right if you, got some kind of a mission that you probably should have some baseline do, and yet you can't plot a book, whereas, like the army and pull out. What is it fm seven tacky three triple tunas got there. It is right. Here's everyone's job! Here's your commission! Here's what we're people's fields of fire, it's all laid out for you, which is awesome.
The the issue is when you have something like psd. You know security for much effect of high value. people and there's. No, there was no book on that. There was no doctrine known, had any doctrinal that, while the elite, actually we are again. The only thing we drew upon was that of our our specialized unit had been doing it and up in the in europe for a very few years, and we had some guys who, from that command who were were like. Oh, we not do this. We not we we've we've done it before and that's why we were tat to start doing as those guys are training all of arson and they they were familiar self, so yeah you're right I mean that the doctor, I think I think officers and- and I think they do live at more this, but it would you know officers, who couldn't come in with better understood. I just feel maneuver ends ends and battlefield stuff right. It is advantageous, but at the same time, this disability kind of in almost with it with an infants. Mind is, is something we do pretty well yeah takes a certain level of of open mindedness to go. Oh here's, the biggest street.
admission that you've around the country cool yeah. We got it yeah we'll do it and and to pull it off. I mean think about that all the thousands, thousands of move bits of individual new elements of these individuals over a year and a half into hostile territory, where there's so Many people trying to kill them and then they all made it down. They all lived and that's a pretty amazing, pretty amazing job general boys and had like you said you don't want to be on defense right and that the crux of that job is you're urundi. If iran defect, although when people donors and is the office of nature, that job I mean, there's so much preparation in planning, and I think I think one The reasons why the guy, Did it so well as because we just look at environments differently were always hedging r r, r r situation to the best of our billy were comfortable uncertain. But we'll get it to whatever percentage we can in terms of looking ahead and uncertainty. Before we say. Ok,
that's the line we gotta be good here, and so I, for me, was a real education on the on the go on the offensive nature of that of that type of and of course, when you're in the moment, you're on defense, but you've, you've offensively prepared the environment so that you are hedging your bets in your in your advantage, which is pretty cool yeah. The the shift of the mindset This is a defensive mission. How do we make? How can we be offensive, as we possibly can, and I remember we where she did when I was a team to weed training for this. We actually did like some scenarios. Where are we going to protect this guy? And I remember you know in conversations with guys that had worked with other units and their what they were too Wasn't he told us this? Okay? What we, when we work with these other units, at, do this for a living, here's, what they would say. Oh you collapse on the the person that you're trying to protect you
it's a very defensive mindset, he's like what we would do is. Oh there's, a three we would attack the threat yo. It's like that. It's like you, opposite minds, and he said you know what, when they would play it out. You know with simulation or whatever the people, we're goin orphans and attack. The threat would do better than the people that we're just trying to survive the principal and get him out of there right if you do want to do that, but if you ve got guys are attacking the attacker enneads beat a better move. Yeah you get into their their ooda loop. I mean you get it. You know as soon as someone if they're, if, if, if an enemy is in attack mode and suddenly they find that someone is getting into their space, it puts them on the defensive, and so I think that's a really cool mindset and strategy than that that we applied so you get done with that deployment and what what acts so that screen for the maritime Mona, the specialised unit for for the joint joint special operations command maritime component.
Green and got got accepted and went to that selection and how's that selection. For you I enjoyed it. I mean I am it's is about nine months I enjoyed so I would. I would describe that, whereas buds primer responsibilities to not quit the there there's performance come in there. You have the you have to be able to perform in the in what they're asking you to do, but I just like I love the I love the m. Since my group to growing up what you know. I said my mom classical piano, my dad. Denver. I love all of it, but I started getting it metal and equipped- and there was I have little in the late eighties I heard master published for the first time, and- and I was I was hooked- I had been lift listening to like yoga, a motley crew, and things like that- and I was like I just want something heavier there's a will? There's gotta be gotta, be more and I do, and I have heard master of puppets and and and justice for all. I heard those guys- and I realized why I guess I realized later in this mental autopsy,
I loved the what I call precision violence persists. Aggression and in the way these guys played- and I love thrash metal, but I mean fit with the palm meeting and the fact that you could hear every single chug on eddie work and it was just so fast and so precise and that's what I felt like. I was doing this kind of passage, rescue level seek you see us just so fast and so precise, and so I just really they love it, and musical, I love it means that the wrappers, who do it yourself, who rat fast and precise ella if it's a country, if banjo playing fast and precise. I love me, I just anything. Fastened, precise kind of violent yo persist aggression. I love and dumb. I love the challenge. It was I enjoyed it. I met metallica dislike the impasse and I walked, two are james hatfield and I the story, which was when I got to see your team one. Ninety ninety one there was a
ec stereo system in the weight room and it was had the old school five disk, cd change ice and was all the metallic albums where there was locked shot. He was the only permit set was like yes, yes, sir, but that's what I made a good decision by during the day, yeah right, that's awesome! Yet a that, so the so might so. The training reminded me a little bit of that justice. This very precise aggression, which I look, and I thought seals, always that way and in others the underwater deliberate different I thought we were just designed differently in a sense it. Yes, we we do never violence, but we do it. Every single time you move every single time your trigger finger moves, it's with a thought. It's it's thought through and I am I really enjoy that that level. So you get done with that with the training, yeah Now it's time your gear get put into a squadron, you shall go on deployment yet
and what are those? What is it? How many of those? What's your? What's your op temple like yeah back, then it was a. It was a nine month cycle, three months, three months, training three months of it's called alert and then three months deployed and and then rinse and repeat, but because the war had started it was basically, you know it. While I guess prior to the war it was, it would be basically six months of training, three months alert and then it became three months. Training three months alert three months, but the point and down, and so the training cycles got got crunched and it was just very fast and ends tough, tough, but cool. Because the op tempo, when you were there were so intense, but but I did, I ended up doing to deploy, as a trip. I did a coin as I've got the abruzzo further squadron night to deployment of europe as a true commander. There
where's were those aircraft in one hour when it was too to Iraq and Afghanistan and then what what timeframe if this was o five through. Oh eight, the familiar sir you and I may have crossed over. I'm sure we did. I I'm you know I in trying to think through it. I mean we may have crossed paths here, because it. Even when I was running training I came out here. I I we probably sat down in some of the same training conferences to talk about stuff right, but you never know Yes, so you're out on those deployments, how's that that from a leadership perspective it some I mean you're learning the whole time and I think I think you try to when you in any in any seal platoon. Especially as a new officer you go in there and, if you're not willing to just listen first year, urinary skirt right, especially when you have guys who ve just been there done that so so to go in and listen first and watching and here the expertise and was almost like getting,
into a machine that was already moving and you just try to say now. How can I help this move better and faster, and so is a tremendous lesson in leadership for me, because that's what I recognise that you have to have to be a part of the machine, it's not necessary. I mean that I think I was a kind of leadership is not a position. It's behaviour right end and I talk about this concept called dynamic subordinate. which is really decentralized leadership, and I you know, and the story of this kind of me thinking about this comes after I left the teams. I was talking to a bunch of executives and they asked me: I had flipped next to me and they say: hey rich. Can you draw the task organization with a task? Orders or organization looks like for a for high performing team, and so I was stumped when the asked me that, because I had the models and my head was like this- these models don't apply. I had the pyramid model. Of course I was like well that doesn't apply because you know that's too slow and bureaucratic. The flat model, which was a
wild rebellion to the pyramid, and I said dumb that doesn't apply because you know in a flat model. First of all, it's hard to know who's in charge and, second of all it because it's flat something happened on the right, sideline that doesn't it's not seen or heard by the left sideline so it gets silent. Information can get silent on a high performing team. We should never get silent so flat models out, and then I had the robert Greenleaf servant leadership model where the leader is the upside down pyramid leader sits on the bottom and I always tell people it's like if you're if you're gonna land on any one of those, philosophically that's the one you can land on its way to good one. However, still not our help from team operates is in a hype from team. A burden is distributed, it's not all at once, so so in frustration I basically drew blob on the board. Me, but I said to the group, I said: what do you think the leader sits in his blood and I get answers like an affront. Backed up bottom centre has at your you are correct. The leaders wherever the union needs to be in a moment, and- and this is what I call dynamics explanation, which is Really this idea that a team understands it issues and challenges and problems can come from.
any angle at any moment and when one does, the person whose closest that problem and the most capable ambiguous sets up and take sleep and ever be followed. And at a swaps is also also also alpha swarming, that opposition swaps- and so I know you and I Officers were pretty much in charge of every op we were on, but didn't mean we were always being supported. In fact, it was usually the opposite. We were supporting other people and sometimes the environment shift and they'd have to support us right, but but it was really an interview. This really hit me when I was actually in training, and I was watching close combat training because in close quarter, combat you'll see a group before guys outside door and they'll go at your number one man number two men over three men reformer, they're gonna room there sunny clear that every me all clear will the next threat might be closer number formats. I guess what number form into comes from one, and so you see this and so no seek you see, run as ever. The same you know and as justice this just amazingly beautiful vial. We beautiful dance between leadership positions. I think that's what I recognized the most and and
fell into quite quite you know quite well, because that's kind of how I like leading, but you know funny story. First appointment as the tribune I'm in afghanistan, and we get this. We get this art our first mission, its and it seems fairly fairly good compounds not too far away easy drive their relatively easy. Get this thing planned out and dumb and as were planning where you know, we're getting little things like yellow genes, crypto, or this thing didn't sign up here. Gear we need is not there are these little thanks little text, and I m an archaeologist little nephews brushing aside, but their adding up and a kind of keeping account my hat
and so we start rolling out and and now we're driving in the first route fouled right. So we have to go second route, that's fouled, and now we're like okay, wait. A second you know gave you probably get this third row. We get the third route they finally park a little bit late timelines little bit skewed walking towards the target. Finally, we're walking towards target, and we start hearing whistling and we'd. Just read a couple days before some intel on him. a unit that had been ambushed and they'd heard whistling. So I stop everybody. I call my troop chief, I'm like hey, I'm gonna feel good about this one. You know I've. I've got too many tics and fortunately was a great guy and he's like I agree and so I was joke on on my very first up at that commandest esther commander. I called the seal There were whose arrange your back of it: the basis of hate around were were quitting the mission you know, and I actually blog on this is it's it's ok to quit, but but just never give up pride because because,
you're seeing the situation in europe paying attention. I realize it was really. It was really good for me to understand that that's my job as Wieder I mean they would get so many guys who do so. Many phenomenal things. If I'm not keeping abreast of all this stuff, and of course there are some guys who are pests, and you have to take that that hit too, but but that's my job and it really tommy. I think in the hundreds of missions I did. I turned around on three and four, one felt like I was quitting in every one was hard and on every one we had guys who were pissed off and upset, but but I recognise that that's that's the job, the aim is to have the means to joke about it. So what was a platoon commander. When I was a troop commander, where I called a go, go criteria because you and the seal teams. They have no go criteria if you dont have this meant, because it's a no go if you dont, have this air supported to know, go if you dont, have coms these people to know us we'd have all these no go criteria, so my you could always be it. For me, it's go. Go criteria were fuckin going right and but that but
interesting thing was there was something like there'd be emission words like hey we're, going; ok cool, hey we we actually just lost. They are cover for this part of the answer. Ok, we're going looks like the army that was going to support us with their vehicles for cure out for the first half an hour, they're not gonna, be on station for an additional three hours. Ok, we're going hey the whatever Elinor for that unit. That was supposed to be here, for the briefing actually didn't show you know what we're not going I so eventually you gotta make that call of hey. You know what, for me, we're just that the universe, trying to tell me that this was not a good off well and you- and I we've read these after action reports of these. These tragedies that happen and these tragedies never happen with one big thing: it's always a series of little things, and so hindsight is always twenty twenty and I think, if we're not as leaders understand that we're looking for those number of
excellent and no one knows how many takes it takes you dance. They walked. Ten tax write it just it is what the tick is and how does it affect the mission and then eventually, what's yours, What's your no go, vs go, go, you know, and I think that's a that's one of the jobs yeah, the the other. As far as the leadership goes- and you know I've had this conversation with so many civilians companies and wanted. ways that I would explain it to them is here we are on an assault and We go over the wall and there's a guy, that's in charge of opening the door and he's a breach and guess what whatever he tells me to do as the breach team leader. on the overall guy in charge out there on the ground forced commander, all the people out. There actually work for me and when he says hey, step back feed go around the corner. I say roger yeah, that's right when the point man says hey we're gonna shift to a different, I say cool roger that when my vehicle commanders as having a pop up and veto and and get a gap corner here, icicle roger that so
your constantly people are gonna lead of what they have control over what actually want, as I want everyone, my team to be a leader and step up and make things happen so readily. It's like a school of fish brown. We are leary amoeba, we're not we're! Not this this hierarchy or line, and that the position of the police- and tells you is what you're of responsibility circle, is you know four for making should happen? He also, and I think it's important the up so you do these deployments and then it at some point here you get tat. with running the selection for this J sought, grew this navy are yeah not before I volunteered to go back out to the teams, okay, so one of my great mentors you and I both know him and he was he was, and he is now retired, but he was my ceo tilting too. He was also a deputy there. He had. my seated ass, it appeared he had been at that command and- and I just loved him so much. I didn't already get back
I didn't. I wanted to make sure I stayed in both communities, kind of or both both things, I've I volunteered go to in ten as ops exo and in the other. The other component was my wife, She pretty soon he was a group commander he would well know when I did it. He was the deputy commander before he took, grew combat but we're tracking on the yeah, but my wife was also sick. A sick of the command someday I'll have him on here. We have because we've got some good stories like this yeah. What a phenomenal guy, but life is also secular command? And she basically back then I mean they wouldn't even let wives near the compound. I mean she, you know she had to drop me off at the at the fence and walk in, and so she used. She was pretty pissed off and she sat me down. She said, listen, you know, I don't think he. I don't think I could take you staying there and that's a pretty big thing, because that, because you know it's typically, especially as an officer, if you leave chances are you're coming back
or you know you know you don't know you know to to it's a gamble, and so, but I you know how long have you been married for at this point? got married in a one? So this was this was now oh eight. We hang ups married when you were when you got to team to basically at once, so I met her in hawaii, though, and then I got him to she moved she was from pennsylvania, but she moved from a lie back to your virginia beach, and so I went to kids by then He's already pest bro, you took my guy you're, so I tell the story is funny, but it was. It was planned. oh seven, and I was some seven and I came back from I'm at points there was very successful deployment and you know, and my wife's pretty sick and tired of hearing how awesome her navies you'll, have it she's at home, with our one year old and our three role and its have doubled as I've been home and I'm just a freaking loser, loser total loser and I come home. So I'm at home, I'm doing some projects and I hear her from the back row: she's a rich. Can you grab the cheese and doing something with the kit? Can you grab the cue tips now
Italy and embarrassingly I didn't want to drop it, I'm doing some just like I don't know where they are and and then she's like no they're in the bathrooms, like okay, better drop. What I'm doing so, I kind of regret gently drop. What I'm doing I go to the bathroom. I I step in the bathroom they're, not here and she's like they're in the closet, I opened the closet door. They're not if she's like they're right there on the shelf in the closet. I'm saying I'm telling you they're not here so now I hear her footsteps. I was like okay, I'm gonna prove her right right. Her arm comes from over my shoulder grabs, a cue tips. What's in it for my and says they are right here and as she's walking away she's like it's, no wonder you guys haven't found bin laden. Yeah she's, like you guys, are probably going these caves and you just sit in there. Your male eyes are not saying anything which ironic I say. Ironically, it was a female team, but a female found found them right. It's the wives seal lives are bad ass. They really are, and I know you can testify that the duke but yeah so is it was oh wait volunteered go back out the team
was didn't ops, obsolete, exo deployed with them. So that was about to your tour and then how'd. You like that I loved it. I loved it love the ceo of the mass chief of the team. Again, your back on a six month deployments, which rougher, but but I was I recognized. I recognise the than the healthy nature of seeing both sides and staying connected and ended and ethnic and, of course, if it helps you not at the hall it on home front, but then was asked to go back to two run training, and you know my at that point that in the command there is, there was issues the commanded sergeant at an ex ante stubby holistically had started. Do a lot more for the families and the wives bring the families in they set, which it there's no great concept right now,
so it was a. It was a better. It was a better situation and I was happy to go back in and went back in early, two thousand and ten and and took over selection. So this When are you take over selection? This is kind of the kind of the beginning of this book that you're a bright idea and with that is probably a good time. to just jump into some sections of this book jump into rare here we go He say this. I learned about attributes hardway on the job and under pressure. From the top and two thousand ten I was in charge of training for one of the premier. Special operations units on the planet are command select to canada from other speck. Team, is men who already proven themselves to be exceptionally skilled and committed one friday afternoon I was sitting across a small table from one of those men still sweating his fatigue from along the training. He was a navy seal with eight years of experience behind him. A season warrior who to comply.
dozens of missions. His record was saturated with glowing reviews and recommendations from his superiors. He was also, good as a mentor, two younger, less experience, guys and he'd been promoted at every of, global opportunity, often early sir, across a team from the start on paper, he was perfect but three. each into nine month training programme. We already knew he wasn't gonna make it the selection. Writing class just finished a week of close quarters, combat exercise or seek you see. You ve seen it in the movies on tv, a swat team or a squad of soldiers busting into a building staring down the barrels of weapons there waving around one of them shouting clear, every few seconds, the holly, version is much noise you're in sloppy than reality, though, in real life seek. You see, is a complex sequence of movements, the exact order and timing of which have to be improvised in a fluid high stress environment, where mister can be fatal. The lead man focuses only on the door and wait for the signal squeeze or a word from the second man. Then he goes to the door and turns left or right sweeping is sidelined down the wall. Ninety degrees,
for the center of the room. The second man goes, the opposite direction left to the lead man's right, or vice versa, that does the same visual sweep. The third and fourth men keep alternating directions, each of them scanning the room for any bad guys who need to be neutralized or good guys who don't all that happens in a few heartbeats. The guy said, across from me had in his career, cleared more rooms than he could likely remember, but each space operation team had its own habits and techniques, and we needed him to learn our particular once the candidate at the table had started strong. But after the first week or so things begin. To get a little shaky little mistakes, morphed into bigger ones in this conference was taking ahead. He knew he was falling behind and he tried to get like hell to catch up? He stayed late, walking through scenarios processing techniques asking instructed for feedback. None was working, one of them highly trained warriors in this world, a man specifically recruiting for the specialised unit just couldn't keep up. What was I supposed to tell him that
that at least he wasn't the only one that more than half of the other candidates washed out too. That wouldn't do no matter how gently words came out. Your Good enough is a hard blow to anyone's ego, let alone a guy of his caliber and then there were my superiors there. Isn't it I attrition rate for canada to want to get into special operations units in the first place, and that is by design about eighty five percent of prospective candidates, for instance, don't complete basic seal training, but we recruiting manhood already proven themselves to be among the very best special operators, when only about Fifty percent of those guys made it through our training command farther up the chain, understandably wanted to know why, on that, in two thousand ten. I haven't you satisfying answers. I told this highly experienced highly decorated and highly competent seal. The only thing I could I'm sorry, you just didn't cut it. He wasn't happy either.
For that sort of you figuring out. Why is this happening? What can I do better here? Yeah rough rough, and and disingenuous, especially as I mean, the leadership was obviously. Needing some answers and wanting some answers, but as qadri I mean he just that we could do so much better and I think the collateral effect of that was that these guys were leaving. These guys would leave and go back to the the regular to their teams and they didn't feel good and they were they were they hated where they just came from, and so So we were, we were looking at some a real problem, community of of hurt feelings. and I say I say that I mean I don't mean working animosity- animals yeah, so so Leadership that hey rich, take a better look at this. What what's going on, and so I really had to start deconstructing performance as you do there some
you say you're in the book and obviously get the box. the attributes unwritten little chunks of it. You see thus to begin figuring out a better way to explain why so many seemingly well qualified candidates were cutting it. I decided I needed to examine our roots. Are went back to the beginning, nineteen, forty three and here talk about world war, two, talk about draper kaufman there, the cd use you you go through some that history and a brute did have you read out by by water beneath the water at yes outstanding, sending back what up that morgan Ben mulligan book trying to wash out every dived yet awesome. An incredible job. He did on that book so used. Looking at that, you say your kaufman understood though that being a strong swimmer who could speak across a beach was enough for his recruits. He needed men who could think on their feet. Men who could adopt adapt and flex as fast as the environment did many where the abyss
you be aware of multiple aspects of their surroundings? Could work together as a team and things quickly and do so, while under unfathomable stress coffin realised, in other words, that it wasn't looking for recruits who knew how to do the job, but rather men who could do the job The difference in that single word between how and could is enormous, the required skills, diving, cartographer demolition and so on could always, he taught what kaufman were men with certain innate attributes traits that are hard wires, hardwired into each person's core. So there you go, that's what you started looking at, so I thought about at the time you know now it's two thousand and ten. I had already been on hundreds of combat missions, and I thought about my own it's experience, and you know in buds we spend hundreds of hours running around the big boats in her head and one hundred drums running with three hundred lb telephone poles and exercising with those and freezing the shirts on, and I thought about the hundreds of
as I'd been on. Never on one of those missions are thousands of training, evolutions, never unwanted. I carry a photo or a telephone pole right, so what they were doing to us was not training us and the skills skills, and so that's where I started distinguish this. This difference between skills and attributes yeah. I did do one up one time love. I did a training, arbed off the coast of north carolina we came across the inner caused, the waterways we ended up. It was low tide. Everything was a disaster where this mud flat, we had a carrier, freak zodiac in mud, flatter from a long long asked Tom. Did you put on your head? No, he had the we didn't low care, look everyday located. So you say this Skills and attributes get conflated all the time, yet they are inherently different things right. and again you got a whole section on this skills are learned these hybrids.
Skills are learned, skills, direct behaviour right explained direct behaviour. So so, he'll tell us what to do in in known specific and rapture. Here's how and when to write a biker, throw a ball or should again as a target, here's this failure, What do you do? Here's, what here's? What it hears you hears when to write? Here's, what to do! Here's when to write and write and and then finally, because they're they're, visible they're, very easy to assess measure As you can see how well anybody does any one of those things encourage scores and stats around this. Where we go into organizations and hirings like you, could put them on a resume, and this is why we get seduced by skills and we're hiring right, but they don't tell us how we're going to show up and it's challenging certainty, because in an unknown environment, it's very difficult, if not impossible, to apply a new skill, and so that's when we lean on the attribute in the attribute their innate right All of us are born with levels of patients or situation, awareness or adaptability. Now you can certainly developed those things over time and experience, but you can see of the stuff in very small children, which means there is a nature nor trailing and then attributes inform our behaviour. They don't directed so another
my son's levels of persevere, and resilience inform the way waste, up when he was learning how to write a bike and he was falling off a dozen times doing so. and then finally, because her heart to see their difficult to measure and test you hearted test someone's levels of patient or whatever, and so they're are the most visible in this world during stress and uncertainty, which is what made our laboratory my laboratory with specialised commander, even buds. The perfect laboratory foreseen this but really ultimately is attributes which, of course, that's what it is. You learn some skill should certainly but That's it that's offense question really spt is where you learn is where you learn, you really and then be your your team and used are really learning, but its natural selection, coarse and so, and so these attributes inherent qualities are really what DR thee the distinction as to whether or not we can operates mars is a funny story. I'm not sure if you heard this one, as I heard it when I first got the buds because it how obscene and some time before me maybe even way before us. But the story goes in and beckoned
story goes this kid shows up and he wants to be a seal and they basically say well, you need to swim. You know fifty meters and he's like okay. So we take this kid to the pool. That's going to twenty five meters, one way and twenty five back Damn the kid jumps in the pool and sinks right at the bottom and stars walking grass about the pool to one end and then walked across the world. who, by the other and he comes up, he's gasping for air nearly drowning in a looks up and with what hell are you doing, and the kid who stuffed gasoline is breathless with the interest. As I'm sorry instructor, I don't know how to swim and it starts or pauses. For a second look, the kid says: that's okay. We can teach how to swim here. and it's because that is the future new. Is fiscal. Had the attributes all of us as one I guess I could be out erect but to show up the navy seal training, not knowing how to swim, teaching him to swim. The skill was maybe the easy part right, and so so the idea
is anna in you know we go into business. Obviously I don't know some skills are necessary just for basic entry right, but if you want teams, if you want the highest performing teams on the planet, which are teams that not only do well when things are going well, they do wealth and things are are not going well. You have to look at attributes, and so I in the book I talk about this dream team. Paradox where you you, you hear it all the time these teams are put together best graphics, is or best marker best lawyer, whatever best best best, and then they slowly turned yo and they go. They go well when things are going well right, but as soon as the environment changes as soon as things go go sideways, the team turns toxic and if you don't, if you haven't built your team on the attributes, you're not going to have a team that that survives, yeah from question. If I should tell the story, but I'm going to go home, I think I've told for so. My mom my daughter is having a birthday down the beach and dumb. I ended up taken all of her friends and like Organizing the teams and having them compete against each other, of course, and this was certainly who state
just a matter of fact and there's a river up there, and so I was having do this contest drag this logs at all kinds of fun stuff. They dragged us login who can do faster? Who could build the tallest? You knows sand tower in five minutes ready go and the cool what one the cool was that as I'm watching them. I'm like I see like one person that steps up and starts leading. I see some of that doesn't care. I see someone, that's lagging, I see someone that will do whatever they're told to do as soon as they're told do it has like this. freakin little super tune of eight year Girls raises crazy like the same exact humans, but then The funny part is my daughter s. It. Ok, you guys go the river, whoever camping, bring the biggest rock back winds and so two hundred a she's the across the river awesome requests the cost of everyone's grabbing. You know there are the size of a base. Ball may be the size of a great fruit, my daughter, does my middle daughter rana. She picked up like a legitimate raw That is the whole way
a small boy and she's it's back across and clear, he's not compelled to swim with it? And I'm watch I'm like all this is gonna be interesting and she just like like this kid that you're talking about she just goes in her head just disappears and be no five. I can go by six seconds, go by bitter head pops up and she's. She barely gets her head mouth out of it grabs a breath of air, goes back down, keeps walking, comes back up again, grabs another breath of air cups, walking and finally, like her head rises up on the other side as it gets more cl or she walks up and just drops the thing at my feet: node victory and she wasn't. She didn't win at added. She wasn't diverse. She was freaking one like a heartbeat. She was like you've got the biggest rock. It was like known, recent drop that like whatever I got this guy. You deaf, we were about. One is still at some. I mean this is this is where a lot of tea,
miss hiring. They get, they get confused conflate these things and they ll think someone with the with the best skills is the best person and dumb, and this is why I think you can. You can pick certain environments where just attribute show up more than skills and an obvious the copses environment, with that this is where I talk about like different sports in in in many sports skills, take predominance right, but things like fighting. You know, and I don't fight you know just a. I know, people who do- and I you know I look at it with interest but but I can't predict necessary what the other part is. It's uncertainty. So there's actually there's adaptability, there's perseverance! There's all these things come into play. Climbing would be the same thing, and so so I think these are these. where you start, I'm really from obsessed with an edit within
I think I'm obsessed with who we are as human beings at our most raw, because that's the real us right and- and we always hear it- you know it's when when the shit goes down that the realist shows up and I'm like: okay Who'S- that, because we had the we had the the great gift in our careers of understanding who that person is and understanding who that person and all the people around us and and that allow It has to be the teams we were. I mean, I know you you would agree. I mean I knew my guys and I could see a silhouette, and I knew that That's how well we knew each other, because we ve seen we lived each other at the most raw and a lot of people. Look at that opportunity and you don't have to go through seal training to do it right it just understanding these these qualities gives cause these attributes. We, when we fall back to do that are most wrong. It's what these attributes are running, so we should know what we're high on all we're alone. As you start talking about, I attribute here, you say this, but the right stuff item of basic? We meant thing
hard wired in the skills in skilled pilot that allow them to function at the highest level, no matter how babby circumstances went sideways, he meant in these three words attributes that's what the right stuff drains and then ass the things you talked about the elemental they they inform, rather than direct. What you're going to do and attributes are difficult to assess measure intestine, and that is the truth in that's. Why, you know, like you, don't know they don't know who's gonna make it through seal turning. No exhilarating the dunno who's gonna make it in despite There is a there. Is an element of if this guy great on his p see that the physical standard test feeders great on it it it does index that this guy had the discipline to work out. He had the wherewithal to stick to a programme so that it does indicate some of their attributes. Europe boats
not necessarily he's also people. It is really good athletes and they like to work out right before they showed great shape. We every single seal has a story of the guy, their class. That was, you, know olympic, this viscera, whatever college athlete that, and they just quit. You know If you and I went to buds and dumb in this- is just a hypothesis I had there's, there's no way will build approved this fight and we could sit down with a class of of candidates, get ready to start, and we could interview each one of those candidates about what there when he was to get there in the first place right, I think that the guys who had the longest journey the toughest journey we could say that that's probably to make it through, because I think that this is these are the because it's they were executing attributes to get there in the first. By always a bud select, Certain starts when you decide. You know, there's a lot of there's a lot of there's a lot of attrition that goes
because we were like I wish I could do that. But then they stop their writing so so there's a journey, whether you're, enlisted or officer to even get to the beaches of buds and then it's then bud starts writing. So so I think the the the folks in again up you know there are there's always exceptions, but the the folks who have practiced these attributes and developed the and, of course we all have to come up. We have to go. We have to enter the game with a little bit of a level right. We all have to have a level of compartmentalization at day, one of budrus we're going to make it will hyper development and buds, but we have to have it, but there's we could. All. I think every single one of us could tell stories from her past. Was like oh yeah, that was, that was great right. There was a compartment. I a I when I was playing football in eighth grade. My dad didn't like he didn't want my mom driving us around. So he's like you have to ride your bikes everywhere, so my brother and I would have grown our football gear and ride our bikes through town to get to football practice and then practice at the ride, our bikes home. You know,
it all that seven uphill both ways right, but but there's elements there that you know you're powering through, and I think we could there'd be there. You would never get it right, but you know I think we could. We could pick some of the guys Yeah and we'd miss some other guys. We listen to me. I know it sets. It really is crazy. The the demographics of people that make it and don't make it down. It's like literally, all this rich kid from wherever from boss, There grew up Rita with a silver spoon. Oh he made it this poor kid from the ghetto that grew up. You know without a mom, without a dad group raised by his, you know his grandma, who did have a job and lives off welfare. He made it. and you can also say: oh this rich kid from Boston that went to a private school and had a silver spoon he quit and this poor kid that grew up in the ghetto quit now a like a doesn't make any sense. It's one of the things I love the most about that training and
things, are most grateful for its because I don't think there's a process on the planet and verifiable says on the planet that allow you such a zero out, start I mean you hit those I remember lily getting there and I felt relieved because it took so many people like I did get into use. Recommendations just to get a billet right, We're getting there like all right, it's now it's on me and I felt relieved because was now it was literally on me. No one there was going to force me out and and we we we had this up it is your own everything and just start moving through and it school yeah maguire. Telling me that he would tell me, who is the ceo of buds? He would before how we could say if you guys don't make it through its because of you now like a pretty much we're, not gonna drop, you look what people get draw breath, but the vast majority of people right. They quit the very few performance
drops, yeah yeah, then those are out as are towards the ends and autumns in stt. But very few- and those are am I correct in saying those are attribute, drops I would think so because, if you're talking about very basic, I remember we had a guy who got who got dropped because he just he was unsafe with his weapon while being safe with your weapon, has nothing to do with the skill of hitting a target has to do with the attributes of being safe with your weapon right, I mean it's a it's a situation wherein, as it's adaptability, it's it's it's all this I'm gonna name off a bunch right, that's what he didn't. and so and it's so buds. Just like this training I was running and we used to say I remember briefing awesome and awesome sohkon. I said sir, this training or on its nine months now, ok, but but as an attribute selection course, the whole nine months where there are attributes that we're assessing risks that are going to take nine months to see. How can I see someone's level of integrity, for example, if I can't watch them in a myriad of environments, I can't get feedback,
their peers, who tell me how they are in town. You don't tell me what they do right. You tell me if they they just clean, there's their stuff in and leif right. They don't help out I have this so it so some these attributes don't do take a little bit of a long time to assess what I think that's the beauty of bugs and in this process is it is over a long period, and so we have all Yes, we have time and we have different environments inside of wished to see these cause. They can be in some cases, contextual, and even the ones that were naturally high on sometimes we're just not some we were on off day right and so you, so even just one data point is not a decision point. You have to have to see that across the crust of time, I went back to the book here. You talk about the kind of grouping. These things together, you say, they're, the ones that follow are grouped into five categories. Is the attribute you're acting to talk about the book grit mental acute? the drive leadership and team ability. That does not. that any particular attribute is relevant in only one context? For instance, empathy and accountability are not reserved exclusively for those in positions of leadership and
but minus certainly is useful, regardless of whether one is especially driven rather the act you are organised on the page in a way similar to how they tend to cluster in real life people. We think as greedy, for example, generally have healthy amounts of the four attribute in that category. But again simply in organizing tool. It is entirely possible to have a sizeable amount of courage yet not having. suitable amount of grit and that's an interesting dynamic. Isn't it so now we're going to get to this this little site the. Would you start talking about the attributes themselves? I just kinda went through what the the major ones are and again the the tell that you give you give stories around. All these things are examples. You talk a lot about the neuroscience behind all your friends with edge acumen. There's all kinds of great information in the book so get the book, but did you hit some highlights the the first section is the grit attributes and
number one courage the ability to manage fear in order to confront danger, difficulty or pain? And you have this this, chapters actually called beware of the fearless leader. That's a very good if you ve ever worked for someone who doesn't seem like you're scared ready that you should be a little bit nervous out. It is only after we ve talked about, but haven't named. He told me that he was a guy said. Beware, the fearlessly he's gonna get because illegal get you killed. He is the one that has to go. Go criteria! No! No gas euro, note yeah! kurds, not an absence of fear, but rather the ability to function. Despite being afraid this is you honor, one thirty overnight it. Forty thousand, we get really jump off. comes one hundred percent from the brain busier target on entry, Huber, yep andrew huberman quote: it's a state of mind, which is why People are afraid of different things. Heights might not bother you and all, but they make others uncomfortable or maybe you have a debilitating folks
of snakes or rats, both of which many people consider delightful pets, feet, not to say, however, that fear stays in your head. Fears can by neuroscientists to be the subjective label. That is on the stress response, Andrew says and stress, is more than just a state of mind, its official logical response to our environment, but your does start your head, it begins of your brain, detecting a threat. Process which happens they make dollar in very simple terms. They Migdol is a sort of trip wired for sensing danger, assessing both existence and severity of a threat. So, let's talk about what fear is Do you think you got used to overcoming fear? Yes, we all do we all do. And and again it's this idea, and so there's there's a couple of ways that when we start talking about the physics, physiology of fear and the the
the rise in our autonomic arousal system. When the things start you know, europe are breeding starts getting rapid. Our vision starts to focus in we were. Eight? We all of us have Well, I think we're wired for soil, our courage or courage, circuits or wires or our courage. Attributes are wired. So we're we're slightly above boiling point. If we reach a boiling point, is the average or autonomic response trips and most seals are strip a little higher than boiling point right, which means we don't it takes a little bit longer for us to get that response, but even when we do get the response, were we also, I think, unconsciously, train ourselves to manage our physiology in a way that that keeps our front loeb online. So what happens as we as we approach a deal, a hijack or autonomic overload and our frontal lobe starting to ticket back a backseat or our limbic, brain or lizard brain start to come forward which, when we
wishful. An article wrote overload were acting without thinking it's a lizard brain just survival, so this is. This is advantageous for certain things right. When we touch a hot stove, we don't want to think about pulling our hand away. Our brain takes over a plot underway. In most environments. However, we want to think through challenges. Stress really want to think through the environment. I think that's what we do. We manage our physiology. We we keep our frontal lobe back online and were able to start thinking through the process, and so- and I know all of us have this- it is funny you know again, I'm in I've lived in virginia beach now for twenty two years same by the way down. I have a seal, it was across europe, may I see lose down, the rights has just done right, monsieur le loup down what am I right by saying, I'm so glad these these guys are here because, if they happen, I could go to them and they act like you. Act like what you mean
What, whenever something happens, they just calm down and it should start working the problem, and this is what we practise doing. So we don't, we don't have less fear. We have just practice the process of moving through the fear. Every time jumped out an airplane. I felt fear, but I just knew the I knew and understood the process of going through. That and part of that process is If you understand what to focus on in the moment, we don't overwhelm ourselves and we basically and some ain't. So I'm I'm right the next book right now. The next book is called masters of uncertainty. I'm going to basically walk through this process. But but it's the idea where we say ok out of all this. What do we focus on the roma? How do we move our horizons? You know we pick up her eyes that we move to and oftentimes we pick the appropriate horizon so that we can actually move, and it can be anything it can be. An ex ten second serve itself. Torture by potential as you know, in how we get mildly, I'm going to make the net I'm going to do the next meal, but we
whatever that horizon is, and so it's interesting, I was having lunch with a couple of guys who I served with and in the squatter, and we, of course we didn't ton of these halos together and we're talking about hayhoe. we're talking about like being on the ramp in it's unknown, dz and- and you know, for the Audience- and I didn't do an unknown. Dz is like basically, you look at a map and you're like oh, that looks like a good place to land and you don't have any other. You know intel on like okay, that's where we're landing and you're hoping it's good. So it's there's, there's some stress involved and I remember used in my body was again no we're the rapid. I can remember being unknown. Dz we have this mission ahead of us all that stuff and and there's only one thing, I'm thinking about just one as like. What's that it's like nearly exit, that's the hooray nail the exit and then, once you know the exit, the next rising is ok pull. My shoot gave that's the next rising. Ok, what's next, get on heading right, amazonian and we we are trained to think that way, and we do so in almost all areas and elements of stress challenge, uncertainty, that's what we do and that's what com
as we know- and you know, I mean in the very first book that I wrote about leadership as we call a priority. Next, you yeah. What's the biggest priority you ve got right now right, that's what you need to focus on and get that thing done. If you try and focus on fourteen different things that are all gone, I was the zone team time. You're gonna be a disaster. If we do not have the resources to get it done, you polly likely to have the cognitive capacity you'll get it done? It's gonna be a problem well, then his neurology right, what you're doing by doing that is you ve, read your deliberately engaging your conscious mind your deliberately, bring your conscious mind back in your frontal lobe back online to focus and make a decision move focus. Make a decision
so I love that says his idea of of I I've talked about this. You know it ad nauseum, but it's idea of we. We have this. We kind of have this big picture. You talk about stepping back, which is which is exactly what happens we step back. We open our aperture. We start. We say, okay, what about this environment guy control in a moment? And then you pick something and you go like this and you you focus and you do that until completion, then you go back out again and you asked the question again and one of the things I loved again you see was such a great laboratory inside wish to seek. You see. Is this just extremely rapidly you're going into a room with big focus, then you're, focusing in you're shooting you're going back out, then you're focusing your shooting and it just goes one after the other with a filler. This is exactly what we do in all alarms, and anybody can do this, and this could be what I talk about. This is how we become masters of it because master of uncertainties, not oh, I I know all the environments, no, it's not about training it to environment, about training, the process by which you you operate in an environment and that's how you start moving through chaos. So did you go through the navy
before school, no higher guy with fortunately got good luck. I don't officially and forth. I went to you so I went through old school navy freefall school after my first platoon and it used to be the better. You did, the less jumps you got an began: you just Didn'T- have to repeat jumps. So if you screwed up you gotta, do it again, you screwed up again, you gotta to get did fine. I think I screwed up one jump, and I had nineteen jumps at free at freefall. School and so I'm totally incompetent right, basically completely not just enough to get you some area, and so then did I mean: did I'm too jumped back into work up and now the work up. We got a land, we do it. So now it's been saddam, nineteen jumps, probably in whatever two weeks, and then I don't jump for how long slot long time, long time don't you like like a year, probably like another, no jumper, and then I get on a jump and
alike, were there was a guy there? That was a very experienced jumper and we're we're just doing a jump. command a team, one we're gonna jump and we happen to get a bird like hey. You guys want to be out well hell yeah haven't jumped in frequent a year leno. I only have nineteen jobs yeah. I want to jump so we this bird and we go up we're supposed to be jumpin it whatever third time thousand five hundred feet, normal jump. You know and there there's a ceiling right There's cloud cover and then, and so all we can't get up to twelve five and so you know we're like oh good women about, although we're gonna take to whatever six still not covered like okay, so now down to five, we did and finally in this guy's, a great guy he's like a guy from from special operations command great, do you know, is a master chief and So he's. Ok, guys. This said like we're. There's just we gotta get down low, we're going out it.
Whatever it was out at twenty two hundred and analysis, which do just what you just. Let me that's, you we pull out too, I mean there's, usually four thousand as pull out. So now you're going and I was like I was like what editor we were friends years of mastery, but like we're friends and like I think well, what are we going out is actually two hundred, Twenty two wanted just a hop bob and outside and who is actually not just me. There were several of us that wrong the same platoon all just copy freefall school year. Before all the same experience Finally, I go by what. What do you mean hop impact and ok go out, get stable. The two just pull any yelling and aircraft, any notice added face he's trying to be cool, and I was like roger that who'd, you ve, never don't what are these before, like negative any injuries about you guys like negative, because I dont worry guys. You'll be fine, don't think the exit is what he just. Don't you exit which something like
I bet I could barely get out of a freak out at this point. So I went out. I didn't zig the exit, I'm still here, still alive and end. That's all you're thinking the up nellie exit and there's only one or two, that's that's what made me think of it was used. Otherwise they could just like just just get just get just don't figure. The exact socrates pretty could bring an instruction in just don't like the exit. That is a good piece of advice. So, after fear, perseverance,. constancy in doing something despite difficult year, delay in achieving success. You know it's one of those things. Seems real obvious right now. You say this I urge the ability of effective. We move through fear, challenger, discomfort and perseverance. Is the ability to keep doing it over and over again to persevere, though, does not mean simply to endure, challenge, every uncomfortable situation in fearful episode has its own. on tours somewhere, require only stoicism acquires a quiet suffering until the moment passes. Others might call for an act.
Aggressive response was to you you get this situations. Where do you d artagnan he's gonna like suck it up here? Why talk about there, a break. That's one of the attributes. I break into a couple of different things. Right and so perseverance is actually a combination of both persistence and tenacity and that, with a little mental fortitude thrown into the mix right, but but percent and says: hey I'm going to do this thing this same thing until it is accomplished. I know which is the rocks. It's a stonecutter pro trump and tap on this rock one hundred times cause. I know no one first half to break tenacity as I'm going to try something that doesn't work, I'm going to try something else. If that doesn't work, and so Dont want a tenacious stonecutter right, you'll, never get the rock cut, and you don't want a persistent car mechanically, just checks, the belts and checks. The but what perfect perseverance allows you to do is allows you to modulate and between those two we all know that any environment might require either and and the the kind of the mental fortitude pieces can I decide which, but but yeah it's his ability. Just keep stepping through and modulate yourself
as you go through. You know you get into this at some point. The boy come you know, and I wrote a book called gotta be leadership of life leaf and It was the idea that, if you take any these, what we want calling it's, but if you take any characteristic of a human, then you take it to an extreme. It's probably going to be a problem. Yes, one hundred percent, and you don't want the examples that I wrote about leadership strategy tactics is. This is something that, when I was running, training we'd put these as like in a hallway, you know, and at the end of the hallway it'd be a barricaded shooter and the platoon commander be like two guys: go those two guys get shot up with tape, all their debt to more guys, go those two guys get shot up a paper that timor guys go. Those you guys get and you'll. Have those guys stuck in that mindset of number one. Been trained to never quit their whole life like bright, look, don't go, don't go in all have to do a step back like two feet. Look around and the like. And you know I sometimes have to be. I came in coming here are you gonna send it to their death
there's maybe another way to get to that rome. Besides. This hope this one hallway there. I think in right now, and it was amazing how tunnel vision People get in experienced guys. You know for two chief, like the guy's got fifteen years. In fact to mark out to Marco came in flight, this dude man just go out. I throw the window do something else, so that the idea of Think when I wrote about it in on leadership strategy tactics, I think called the chapter like when to quit and it's not does not work another. If I wanna try something news, stop what you do is going to be tenacious ursus persistent on that one another one adaptability he too quickly and calmly adjust to changing circumstances the situations and you have a little owed to the frog here? The chapter six is called be like the frog
adaptability as amphibians, frogs are built to live a double life if it isn't for suitable on land, often of a water, nothing in the pond wander outlandish grab. I frogs have adapted to environments on every continent, accept and arctic up from low lying deserts to the sobs amounts at fifteen thousand feet in in the australian out back the water holding frog and weighed up to seven years for rain. thanks, they're called blood frogs can change their body temperature to adjust the temperature to the surroundings and their legs, providing mobility that is extremely advantageous, allowing them to leap up to twelve times their body length, the illusion of fraud,
Of course, his classic darwinism survival doesn't necessarily favor the strongest fat lot of good. That did the t rex, but rather those life forms that are most adaptable. This is the same for us, and therein lies the secret to making through buds it's not about being the strongest straight. You have to adapt yourself and to whatever is going on so I mean we're all all team guys have our eye on adaptability. I think, because we can, we can just the environment changes and we just okay. How do I just you know? You know you don't fight it, you adjust to it. I should have brought you book I did. I think I did for five podcast on this book called the psychology of military incompetence in its written by this guy. Who is a world war, two guy who became a psychologist and he wrote this freaking awesome book, but one other main dynamics of the book is that when you look at the military from the outside You know if you are a young sort of person
with an authoritarian mindset, and you like things to be a certain way. You look at the military and you're like oh, that's a place. I need to be that people have to listen to me everyone's going to look the same everyone's going to have to wear the same stuff. Everyone's gonna have to do what I tell them to do. It's a really promising looking environment, would you have an authoritarian mindset and that Fourteen mindset in garrison works out, really the ultimate works out. Well, but man, You don't have that open minded the adaptability and you get into combat where all of a sudden things aren't going to go the way you want them to go, and it's going to be mayhem. Yes and you can't and people have trouble. Adapting to it are gonna, be not good, combat leaders, there are always be some of those folks growing to buds. So a lot of times, I should say a lot of times, but I've heard stories of guys that were prior marines prior army, you know had and squared away like these guys infantry officer especial operates guy from the aren't whatever. But the
environments and marine corps in the army. They have all of their they're going to favour. Someone has little that more authoritarian minds, yeah, and they showed the bosnia like. This is freaking mayhem right and they don't even like it's too crazy for them is to chaotic this, not all remy guys, not marines, I'm just saying I've heard stories of guy whether that back, I was you know that guy was a can to a platoon commander in Iraq in the army. What happened they'd be like dudes, he just he just. It was too crazy yeah, it's a it's a structure that right now so I talked to you know we will probably get into cunning. We did, but this is team guys we all hate rules. it now having and dumb, and so we actually like lack of structure in many cases it it can be downfall. It has been as leadership as leaders in the teams. We have actually monitor that because it can go awry quite quickly but dumb, is this looseness that we approach of environments to because again, one of the things that you burn, and I would say a bill asked me about how does navies you'll stay humble right what was that there are some seals or very
well, but most of us for the most part, our humble deeds- and I said that the biggest the most the primary reason is because we're in environments that will kill us right, I don't care what kind of remember you are, the ocean will kill you if you check, if you turn your back on it right same with a jumping out out of airplane, twenty thousand be ice till my guys no somalia a nine year old with an aching, forty seven and just pull the trigger and the up just happens- to aim- will kill a thirty five year old expert may be seen in a second with or without with an unnamed that's right! So so so, and and so in a world where the environment requires deep humility and the oceans. Just a perfect example. May let you surf right, I mean when you get when you get churned up by a wave. What do you do you relax you just let the you kind of you go with it. You don't fight it. You adapt to the water right, and so so I think this is a a huge asset in in in in any type of uncertainty up and just like you said,
Any of these attributes over indexed is a bad thing. Too much adaptability means your limp, noodle right now and so, and so what we in fact, what we're trying to do right now in the work we do with organizations we're taking each attribute, and we we have about forty six now and we're actually defining okay. What is too much look like what does too little look like because it's a pretty cool project, the others that we were at my company. We do the same thing with we do. A balanced assessment Where are you out of balance? Do you micro manage to a point where people have? say what's happening or you too far in the other direction. Where now no knows what's going on right that would every characteristic of leadership, so yeah, yeah balance and not being stream that was there the bummer about our book extreme ownership, as we put the term extreme in the title, we gotta be extreme, that no, actually that we will write another book to to make up for that right for the next one resilience, the ability
rapidly returned to one's baseline, emotional and mental state. After a stressful, traumatic or even triumphant of and you ve got a story in here and get the book to read the story bout. Your buddy heck, who was who was wounded babby Ghana stand. Then you just talk about His resilience, get you gotta, be hank, just an awesome. guy I was trying to. I was actually I was reading about like who is this guy? I started because he he was your troop esea yeah. You may know I'm talking about, but but yeah yeahs, I was figuring, I mean he's gotta, be I mean not if he was in first at the same time, period has gotta be around yeah I do after I am actually yeah. Was so we'll talk offline about that. But do you have a great great story about him? Obviously, a very inspiring story, and it's a legit story of resiliency, and
but this is an interesting way of looking at it. You say this. I imagined your life represented by a line plotted on a page line, moves from left to right from the past under the present, extends a little bit more with each passing day. If your life, is uniformly com and pleasant, neither aggravating nor exciting, but the line will be flat. Level will call your baseline and its work europe, is where your most comfortable emotionally mentally and physically but the one is rarely flat, of course, at undulates rising and falling in regular wave to mirror the highs and lows of your life. Occasionally wide spikes represented your gun chief achievements, and sometimes it plummets, maybe spouse divorces. You or maybe you get fired it's difficult to function in either of those deep troughs or at those dizzying peaks. What you want, what you need is to return to the baseline to that state of pleasant com that neither aggravating nor exciting-
That's what it means to be resilient, and you got a story here from one of your skippers who you know who I will say because we mentioned him on them are craven PETE van hoosier and when we mentioned them craven was on. I mean one of the best. The officers I mean he was, I was so fortune. He was my seo when I was running, training got it and yeah. He used to target the two minute rule and my grandfather taught it to me and if something bad happens, take two minutes and just you know, wallow swear. What are we need to take the dirt feel sorry for yourself activists get back to work, something good happens, celebrate rest your laurels. Pat yourself on the back after two minutes get back to work. You know, and it's such an again, I did people say because I've I've put this on social media have gotten somebody was like. Well, it takes a lot more to intimidate, there's a lot of things in life. It take a lot more than two minutes to come back to baseline from it. but the two minute rule allows you practice in those small tragedies that that you might have
Practice, the resilience, muscle and again resilience is not necessary growth or growth to to grow from x. Something like that takes a little bit more effort, and you can kind of you can up that baseline at some other stuff that he room and I were working on as well, but resilience if you can get back to baseline. You know, then you, you are you're getting yourself back into a steady state where you can not start making decisions again, and I think that's another thing that navy seals do very well as we get better. We shall get ourselves back to baseline and sometimes to our detriment, because if we come back cause we we might come back from a low so fast that we don't allow ourselves the appropriate healing time. for that to happen. But again sometimes we have to ask for an effort to combat environment. You know we have to get back right, but up, but resilience is also often conflated with perseverance. You know, but resilience is not. Perseverance. Perseverance, as moving through and in going through resilience is snapping back. Is that rubber band stretching and going back to the original strict shape? So would it be a well? How does this play out?
imagining what what the answer is, but when you have someone, that's really good with perseverance, but not really good, with resilience, so they're a niche in a bad place, but they keep going keep going. But what happens as they slowly they slowly fall into entropy there. So you ever imagined so the way you look if people were imagine that line and that sideways. And then I sign with a kind of goes up and down and stays with that without line centre. Someone who does not is not resilience will that, but the kurds goes lower down the line, also befall you, so you fond entropy, whereas if you can become anti fragile, you can actually get that line can actually have at that curve start moving up and that line starts. Right here. So any one of these one of the cool things thing like you was exploring continue to and we actually distinguish these attributes. Can they exist independently of each other? So can you be perseverance without being resilient and the answer is actually? Yes, can you be resilient without being persevering? Yes, so, but in there,
there's manifestations of each of those those combinations, yet others were kind of what I thought this was that I can imagine what the answer is. Yes and then the reason I think this is because I think you and I both have known guys where they're going to keep going. Yes, but you can see that they are not there not where they should be they're gonna keep going to let you go on employment. The heap working third keep them moving forward, but areas on apart. Yes, I think that of all the grit attributes resilience is where a lot of team guys fall short and you actually see it and in the civilians. with very high performers. And this reason the reason is because high performers to include team guys, love the. I love the feeling of getting getting the shit done. Ok, I got it done right. What's the next thing? Okay, give me the next time. Give me a sexy and resilient when things really resilience requires is a recovery. It requires an assembled to recovery to get back to baseline. If you maximize that recovery you'll get to interpret reality, but you at least need enough recovery to get back to baseline. A lot of top performers fall into the trap of not recall
and we know team guys are pretty bad about the next set of attributes that you talk about is the mental acuity attributes. Oh acuity is basically a measure of how sharp the mind is. It has little do education or even wrong. Intelligence is not a matter of how well redder quick witted you are. Rather, we are focusing on the ability to actively absorb and understanding. action to concentrate focus and remember you give some definitions in here this visa huber min, we talked a lot, I was put in this one. I'm sure you did you've got scripts. These are think of these little lines of code. Your brain is costly writing to make sense of the world you've got patterns. These are collections of similar scripts that build familiarity and certainty. in our environment such as every time, I touch a hostile like a bird
parents are how we learn categories. The hippocampus, which is in art of long term memory groups patterns in the categories for easier retrieval using a stove climbing a tree. Driving my car and in context These are broad versions of the categories, cooking, climbing driving and they can be applied to a variety of environments, for example, I thought this a good example. If you when a tractor slip into a go card or take the wheeled about your brain will recognise that context as driving. So these are either they have gets. It gets complex. This way If you write a book- and I recognize- I wrote that book and afterwards, as I got, is pretty dense and you have people who resonate with some of the details, my wife right and she's, like there's too much signs in here. I don't like that. Other people,
I love the neuroscience. I think when you talk about those definitions, it speaks to mostly that task. Switching capability, our brains, are focused points and we're hopping between categories context and categories of all time. Ultimately, these attributes just describe how we process the world around. Us and they're my favorite, because I think, even though I would say compartmentalization is the number one thing you need it seal training, it's that it's really the mental acuity attributes that start defining how you perform in stress, challenge, uncertainty and so, and so we start going through those like situation, awareness, commercialization task, switching and how's our brain working in those environments and how quickly and effectively are we able to do certain things and there's pros and cons for both. So the one you just mentioned, the first one of the situational awareness, the ability to absorb and process meaningful information about our current environment, yeah a man in short, vigilance, right, yeah, yeah and then
you get into in it, and then you get into this as well as the fact that if the here's, what as with any attribute extremes, can be detrimental like us. Get into it yourself, and I wrote a book about it. This book, as it is well extremes, can be detrick too little situational awareness risks oblivion. Oblivious to real danger to much hyper or hyper vigilance, can wear out the nervous system and perhaps even mask and underlying paranoia, so this is this: is the young seeds oftentimes ptsd for those of us coming back from the comments, I mean, I'm someone who literally walks around new york city, I love new york city. I walk around. I notice everything I notice dark alleys. I notice hands, I noticed faces, I notice cars, everything in my wife's, not next to me and she doesn't notice anything right now again. Let me just make sure every set the context. All of us have all of these attributes the difference in each one of us are the levels to which we have each right. So so adaptability right, I you and I would be a level eight environment changes around us. We should we,
shift. Okay, someone else- might be a level three, it's difficult for them. They're still adaptable. She is difficult so and if we were kind of line all these up as like a dimmer switch on a wall, we'd all have different dimmer switch settings as to where these things fall, which starts to speak to our performance. Okay, so there's no judgment in this right. It's that'd be like judging your haircolor, it's just who you are so when I say I'm, we all and seals tend to be of very high high situation where we were pretty vigilant and when you go to a combat zone, as you know, and you're wired, I mean you get you get high. I mean everything you're, just notice, everything you're on key, and so when you go home, if you can't turn that off, that's when you're walking around new york city was like okay, there's a guy like two feet by me again, and he can't say: okay, it's really, okay, right, so so I've I've made I had I took deliberate efforts a lot times to just freakin relax. What what efforts that you take just to just to recognise
I swear. I was being too hyper vigilant and said that don't worry about it, it's going to be fine, right and and and in some cases just enjoy the moment of obliviousness. You know put my headphones on. Maybe a couple times which is hard for me like I'd like up like you, I don't run with headphones gotta eat because I like the environment, but I see people running with headphones on the street, unlike the hell are you thinking. I mean you're going to get help one you're in that's it yeah two years there I've. Never! I know that's not happening, that's not happening. My sons do want do the one earphone or headphone, but but anyway, I think the situation. once again too much as hyper caesar ptsd too little? Oh, I mean you're aka noticed stuff and that's it's important to sometimes so yeah if we are to us thinking, like your wife, if you hear in new york city she's few her vigilance is way low, but I bet you
out of the grocery store at night to your car, which is far across the parking lot? You're, not thinking that, watch about it. Your wife, The other hand you know walking out at wait for the grocery store in the car. She's, probably more vigilant than you are because there's a cheaper price perceived threat, sire yeah threat, I think threat that definitely definitely affects us and- and that is where it gets and attributes get interesting because context, matters, and I think what the the best way to describe this in a general sense is where you default to you know, and- and I just I default to noticing stuff it just it's just who we are, and the I just noticed- are actually human right, humour and are joking with us. We are traveling is up for code. We were traveling to do a talk, and so we happen to be travelling together and and we show up open and I'm just like okay, we gotta go here here here. I know it's in my bag. I know I get through security like everything's. Just I just know of a thought through everything essence at. I think I did ts rejected you while he goes through security and I walk over to see where he is and his bag is coming
the open method of each year to go and stick it in others, protein bowed and stuff, and we reject about that because it would just we just constantly thinking that way, noticing stuff so this is the one that you mentioned already several times, compartmentalization the ability to effectively chunk. Environment or situation into meaningful pieces. Then focus on that needs immediate attention and again in the book, extreme ownership is doing. This prioritize next, you, you got a focus on what's happening implementation is a three step process, assessment, prioritization and then focus so for me was prioritize next cute. Interesting sure the stories right tell in the book is excess stone was up to commander our task in a commander without doing vehicle. immediate action drills and when the guns would
gone to charge, shooting the targets for pop up. He would like lock up here. This is just were in our work up and I'm watching him and he's not making a call and so I took my sharply match marker and I like we got done. The iran have liked hebrew time will tell you this. I wrote one like ought hit the windscreen the windshield of his humvee. I wrote one relax to look around three may call as it when you get. Those guns are soon again just follow these steps, realities, roger that and so then turn off economics it behind him in the vehicle, the targets up in the shooting starts now I'll look out and when I see him like you can hear anything as the fifty cows gone, but may seemed like take a breath and exhale. I'm like okay cool he's, got step, one he's relaxing and then he looks around. He opens the door. Looks the vehicles behind okay, there's two and he gets on the on the hornet makes call sounds like there you go. that was kind of the original version of prioritizing attitude and and
also taking a step back like you, gotta, take a step back. You've got to relax and look around and make a call, and that's what that's what you're talking about here, while in compartmentalization doesn't work without situation awareness I mean. Let's say what you're talking about is that that stepping back as you're extending back you're getting situation you aware again and then you're, compartmentalizing and you're getting a situation is that that out in motion, and they just work in tandem in the best way such a frequent code. My guide has such a jack odin again. Another stone story, so here broke his neck during work up. Remember, hearing here now and So now he can't do land warfare, but I'm like hey, you don't come on I'm going out to to do after taxes, with your guys we're going to watch him. He likes it These are, of course, so we're standing there in his guy pinned down. We got the laser tax system on and his guys are pinned down in this ravine and he's. Let me I has like no and where would literally standing like away from these guys- and he said obvious what call needs be made its just completely obvious and knows
can a call they're all look now: they're gone and yellow screamin injustices, chaos, Finally, you know- had helped. Many tells him hey. Do this, I add whatever any me: what's there out, he goes it's so easy from way up here and also, Oh look where we are going What this was like for me when we went through workup together? I said everything was like this because I was never frequent staring down the barrel of my gun or the sights my weapon like freaking out, just like looking around oh yeah, there's there's an out over that we can all see the bad guys. We don't in that direction, but hey! Let's do this maneuver and it's just really easy. It's like a freaking superpower, yeah the detachment. That's right! That's right! so you go into this compartmentalization and also worth noting we say this is an endless process, compartmentalize It is not static. Few silo your thoughts into a tight box and keep them there We are sorry as if you sell your thoughts and keep them there is ever changing. The script is causing updating with information and we actually
for this new melter target fixation missis oh you're, gonna prioritizing execute. But then you forget about everything else. Now you only got one thing you're looking at, we call that target fixation, not is not out of java leader leader should not be doing that. multitasking myth this chapter, ten task. Switching. The ability to shift focus among tasks or contacts most people believe they can multitask most people. I believe the very good at it in one the study from the university of utah a statistically absurd, but remarkable, confident Markovic at seventy percent of participants thought they were above average in their ability to multiple things at once. They were, then you aren't either when people I d do several things at once: almost everyone, a full ninety percent. According to the utah study, gets worse each individual task, another study instead,
we found that people who habitually multitask actually do more poorly overtime. this is. This again falls into compartmentalization, because if you're not priority in executing and you're trying to do a bunch of things at the same time, you're actually going to fail at all of them in a recognition that we just we can't focus on more than one thing I mean we just can't, and so, and people believe that the people we listen to this podcast and say you know rich jocko, you're, full of it, because I'm listening to podcasts and drive my car right. It doesn't count if you've relegated that task. To your unconscious mind, you can do that because you don't have to think about driving your car, but if you're listening this pocket, asked driving a car and someone swerves in front of you only have to take evasive. Maneuvers you'll have to rewrite the last fifteen seconds of hot gas, because your brain will have hopped contexts right and so and so the p so there are some people who really good at this siena who can go from the email to the conversation to this too, and go all around and just hop really effectively other people when they when they get hop or get hopped. It takes them awhile for their brain to kind of engage that new activity and so, and so it's really just about understanding where you are
and I just realized- I do something echo charles and you're, not going to like this cause. I probably done it to you before. I don't so let's they were rolling You mean rolling jujitsu struggling right, and all of a sudden I just like, having a conversation with something I got or like a girl or leader like we're rolling, and all this and I say to someone else's carrying our conversation somewhere else, and I go. I say actually no- that there's no class this afternoon timing and doing there. I little do that psychological warfare to let you know that whatever you're doing right out of the running you think about it, the head of a joke. Yes, another! Ok! Only aware, during attention tat s kind of like unmitigated affects a little bit like the ultimate cool guy thing, but a lot of we'll do that and its
because some jujitsu like like we're just gonna, gave up some of my own. I you know that you are not the only person. I do it in a way. I already knew he did that either the others have to win would mean its, but do you the kind where sometimes you can do that cause there's a lot of it is just natural. You know, muscle memory or whatever, and so you can see you know, especially in the early rounds where you're warming up or whatever like people, do it kind of the reason I ll do it as the sky, like I don't even have to think when our or with you relegating the fact of the matter. I see what you do Ass you like good. That's what it'd be legal when you're like? Oh, you can drive a car. You will have to rewind fifteen seconds, so you know you had to think about what you're doing now watch next time. He does that stuff. I'm I'm gonna like go harder. Whatever increases sense of origin yeah, you gotta enter his little psychological thing. Yeah there you go this is the one that bit between that one and so apartment illustration thing: you talked about for buds for basic ceiling,
it's just like. Oh you just need to focus on whatever you do right in front of you right now, right move, you need effectively, move your horizons and but an focus of this one is the task switching. Recognising that you can't do two things at the same time, you need to focus on this one and if you have to focus on the other thing, go ahead folk summit of the vessel who gets this is work. It's fun, global complexes that that the people who do this very well and in what we ve seen in our environments can can come our main allies, while keeping a little bit of situation warning to the environment, because because as the as we monitor the environment at the end, and actually he removable will testify to this in terms of the human brain kindness really folk. On two things at once, but it can keep awareness of a second thing. All your focused on one thing, and so, and so we keep away It's because, if, if in that awareness the priorities change, then we task which night and we we were at. We say, oh now, that new priority we're coming off of this, even though it's incomplete and shifting that is shifting to a new priority so
so there they they can, they can dance. These attributes can dance with each other, and I don't know what the optimal levels are for us. or someone you know it depending I would. I would imagine fighting is the same way because year, your constantly gauging the environment and you might be focused on one move but you're your gauging what what's happening mad to shift or adapt. These types of these types of exercises can allow for for a good, dumb practice of this one of the arm. One of the things that I think it's really useful to be able to do is like press job at issue. And this is what I used to tell the young seal officers that we're going through my training. I'd be like hey, you might need to get in there and solve a problem. Don't stay there. get in there. Look in that room. Looking that building look at their what That squad is doing me the adjustment and then get back out of it, and now I I trouble with the eurogroup will when, when people,
pale with the ooda loop, it's because they get stuck in one piece of that right there looking around- it's not making a decision or their taking forgot. What decision to make or once they make a decision, they don't act on it. I also do whole leadership, loop of decision making and the fight a point that I make us don't get stuck in any one of these things because then you're stuck in that one think so the ability to press in law if problem solved the problem given give direction, give a solution and then get out of there is. Is it he too anything that you're doing really from a leadership perspective. The minute nothing I've seen a lot lately. The solution to the problem is not the problem like this
you can go in there to figure out what the problem is and then back out and find what the solution is because most likely, when you're in that problem, you're going to you're not going to see this you're in the fishbowl yeah, that's like when you're up in the catwalks- and you know, you're watching when you're watching other people do cqc all it's like so easy from up here when you're watching somebody do- and I add you like- oh there's the out over there- that's where the that's where they should flank to you can act, We get there. While you're doing it long as you exercise that detachment and taken a step and looking around so important. This is what again the the advantage I mean again. I think you, you would agree with war sucks on all levels, but the advantage of being able to be in combat or or be at these, these units, where we're learning this stuff, if you're not doing this as a leader, you're you're out of the game, to be outrun. I mean you have to recognise that this is your job. Your job is not looking down the gun pointed and shooting I mean I I I I may be- kicked a couple doors when I was out and in iraq and Afghanistan, because my
was task in a commander. I was running the environment and my guys expected me to do that job because a they said he that very well all right, so so the job is to me team that awareness so that the guys who have to be target fixated for Louise can do so and understand that their backs recover. An ability, the ability observe process and apply new information to a current or future context along the men Well, attributes the most what is learn ability. It's a sort of catalyst that allows those other cognitive trade to be put new, effective use. If didn't, have the ability to update and adjust the scripts. Our brains are costly, writing or apply and remember the appropriate patterns and templates, that is to learn. Apartment, compartmentalization and tasks. Working would only help make us make this. mistakes more efficiently. So, if you're not look, What's going on an actual adjusting to what's happening than others
as a matter of your compartmentalize alerted regions, while I would say this is actually one. I admit that I am a little lower on, because the people who really high on learn, ability, people, you people, you could tell us, do something once or show them once they got it right. They display pick up things really fast and I, for me what the hell was busby, prime, more, that the selection when I was going through it- and we finish it ear training in there be geyser of the cleaner gear and go drinking. I'd have to stay back and, like think about what I didn't and it makes the same mistakes a couple of times, and so it's really it's an adjustment to where you are and but, if we're not, if we're not able to recognize where we fall on, this particular attribute, it's going to be tough to actually metabolize. these lessons. I think something that I learned watching what a young guy and see guys that older than me. You know experience it have to petitions are five tunes or whatever, and they would This is the way you do it. Something better
I remember very well. There was immediate action drill whether it was you know how to put your weapon at high or low per annum There was a way that they had been taught. And in their minds that was the only way to do it, is the only way to do it. usually couldn't articulate why their way was better would usually use their rank or their authority. Their experience to say no, I've always done it. This way, this too, we were, and remember I have to train and remember where kind of western solidified. But I remember thinking myself: I'm not gonna be like done, and there is only a hundred percent more than one way to skin a cat. Like me, you go into a room. You can do to a twenty eight different banks and they can all be right. Like you can go, you could go left. You go right, you there's a bunch of different ways to do things and to two gets stuck on one way and not ever make adjustments.
To me, that's a lack of learn ability, one or two percent was when I got to ST vs young again late nineties, we had, as you recognised when your children to a bunch of the old vietnam gus were still in the team, great deeds, most of them running training and I remember we did a. We did- an island trip as ST vs, because we were to play out the middle EAST and, as our doing this insane, like seven day. Hump, whatever and and their their contacting us and things like that in their containers in oak terrain, middle. The desert right ends there like ok, peel, right or peace. I really after using vietnam? Vietnam, like you know, tactics in an open desert and are something that doesn't it just doesn't computer. Right now, I'm in earth are there other ways do that in effect, teams, sir see eye to eye member you brought remember. I am tee the whole. I am teased over that. That came from at least when I sought, or we would seem too, born from this idea that hey we need to start learning. move in a different way, because, yes,
is to tactics are great. They work for jungles, but you know we need some different tack. some, but there's a dinosaur mentality. We always yeah, there's been some. There definitely was some strange evolutions that happen- and I mean literal evolutions- unit gross yes I would tell us yes and I want to see us they had yet nepal Sure you got these issues buckles their brass belt there, brass right and they came. coating on it. That meant it didn't a road did you stayed beautiful in china and when you got it issued to you, they would you polish, that until that animal came off, and now it could a road. Thing myself, like this loss, It's this this got lost somewhere the ai ads so, as you know, to add our land warfare on the west coast.
Drank saudi there's areas in there that are close to re us, you can go and you can do jungle, tactics, unclose terrain and what- What happened is some things. over time, they lost, they got loss and I'll. Give you a great example when you're doing, for instance, like a like appeal right and when you do peel right, Were you ever seen that thing where it looks like you're doing a pure, what they call it, which is like a dance move. You spin around to guess so you'd be are you if you can appeal right or you can appeal left, and it was your too Go you would turn the opposite directions will break the spinning around like about face and so. If you're on a range in america There is almost no place where you can do what you're actually supposed to do, and the vietnam guys know at this I missed this. For, like my first platoon, I was like It really understand.
Why are we doing the spin and guys it's for safety okay. I didn't really understand why this was safer. Maybe you can. I poured in or whatever, and then of vietnam guy was your hasta vietnam guy as actual figures, roger hidden agenda, Why do you spin like this wanting to get up and go, and he goes oh if, worn on range right now, if you will You had freedom sixty degree, you would, when you got done, shooting at the target You would then turn to your right and dump, more rounds on your flank. Then you would turn behind you and dump round behind you to make sure that you're not getting someone behind you and then you I got an extra ngo, so what, looks like when you can't shoot is it looks like you just spinning for no reason and so on. I have explained that too many many people over the years like oh here's, what actually supposed to be happening. Yours
between us. So what What happened is when you got guys that went from like doing the closed terrain, where, you can move cause you're behind cover consumer right. Well, when you The desert is a long way to travel. what do you do? Well, we'll just going through the motions, so in order to go through the motions, just get up and run, and that became a thing like that. Why does that feel right? Well. Does it feel like ass, not knowledge, if you're it, if you're have distance- and you have cover fire, sometimes it does the right thing to do. You, can you guys putting down massive cover fire hate? You get up, we try to get out of there but the other some of those things that over time, they Next thing, you know your polishing enamel offer about buckles right and things just get lost in translation overtime. That's one of the negatives about not having doctrine like we talked about. It no one to say, hey the reasoning- spend like that is if you were in a real content
in a closed environment you be dumping sounds so that you're not getting flanked you're not getting any one coming up your sex, which is what you don't theirs When you're online in a gunfight everyone's online facing in one direction. So so it's gotta, occasionally dumps rob brown! You make sure not crawling up your ass witches gotta be a bat seed. I'm really appreciated I never knew that serve I've. I've learned that now, after twenty one years, the need eyes and again I got lucky like caught that and I always had those questioned. You know like wait, a second. Why we do in this way? Why does it was that where's that come from yeah. Usually there was a reason and unfortunately, sometimes they would get lost in the translation over time, which is which is terrible and in a lot of lessons we learned in in in our war right on what we got next year after learned billowy driver. The drive attributes
we all have needs, and the drive is how we try to fulfil them if you're hungry, thirsty to use the easy examples you are driven to find food and water. Those Admittedly, much is your task now that we can satisfy this leads by opening refrigerated during its up. But for me millennia, eating and drinking required expending a considerable amount of time and energy or driven among our ancestors or the least hungry and thirsty there.
You kinds of human needs, intrinsic and extrinsic explain those to be intrinsic an extra grounds from van pinks book. Dr sarka intrinsic needs are those some, those of economic severely. The physiological needs him did. The drive to drink is from a physiological need to two too, because you're thirsty, you need water. Extrinsic are those in. I need to. I need to make money to pay my rent right, so so they're just coming from the external environment, but but yet drive the drive as opposed to grit and munich grid. I would define us that that ability to kind of certain pursue, though shorter term, are acute challenges and objectives, and then tribes, those longer term challenges directorate and willows.
what what makes up the driven person were those attributes and and there's some counter intuitive ones in their so self efficacy, a belief in one's ability to achieve ago, especially when the path is uncertain or unknown, and you have this chapter titled this chapter, about self efficacy is titled. Mastering the pivot, Like some other attributes, self efficacy can be dissected into components. combination of confidence, initiative and optimism. I like these little by, like that soon, as I read that I was not a good way spain, get it's not as simple as I got this, that's you We bravado self efficacy is thoughtful and serious
I know I can do this because I'm willing to take the first step, and even though I don't know yet all the answers or how this will unfold I'll continue until unsuccessful, and then you go through talk about confidence, talk about initiative and talk about optimism. and it's really interesting to try to get out of here. If you, entering any kind of pursuit in life when you think about how offered him about this. Can I take the first move and in order to take at first move. You've got to have that optimism that tracks are going to make it happen. You do and and so we we, we we throw the his other attributes into our mix them were doing this stuff with with organizations cause all all these attributes are meaningful, but but they can be inert by the bun solves. You know I I talk about in the book him and he you know. I've always wanted to be a pilot My dad was a pilot, my brother's violent. I know pretty much at this point I could find airplane. I know everything about flying. I've been through groundswell a couple times I mean. I know everything again as I got
brother sim. I could fly the thing right. I've never got my pilot's licence. I've come confidently, could fly plain of never gotten my files since rights, others lack of initiative. There, and so initiative on? It's own is frenetic energy. I mean you just you know. Oh I'm just gonna go right, but if there's no, if there's no confidence, if there's no optimism, you're just you're, just spending energy and then optimism hudson, I'm in united plant gardens and and say every day that we? and I can grow ends, sure yeah sure enough. Three weeks later, we will grow. so so optimism on its own can be inert, and so it really to combination that makes up the self efficacious person ends and if you have, if you have an optimal level of that, you will that that add to your drive, corbett, there's gotta be a a friend of mine, Travis mills on his part, gaston he's just a friggin, probably the best whenever I don't really think the best you've ever done or who he is. Is there a quadruple, amputee amputee from Afghanistan? I've heard of him he's he's. Attitude is bar, none
better than anybody. Anyone I've ever known had just absolutely freaking awesome. We are trying to work through his life and his history, and He joined the army and europe in your. He like was a start in high school freakin football ass. We just a study, he's a beast of a human, just, a total stud, and I kind of was like hey man. Why don't you go and, like you know like? Why? Don't you try for special forces, or do you go ranger or anything like that? He was mad. I didn't know if I could make it like this guy is I mean I was the most. average person, like a rose average high school kid across the board like avc, to low average in every thing that I it was just like for some reason. I had this idea like oh seal training, toughest training in the world, one, let's go, bring it and you have us told the stud like Travis being like hadn't. Wasn't sure if I could make it so it's like He might have had a little negative on the optimism rights in our right, yeah, there's about it.
But there's also we can with roses or a little cunning in there. We don't like rules. So don't tell me what to do there. Some rebel nature in there that I think causes guys like you and I too, to try for seals ends were what this is a little bit narcissism did the owner of a question? Go so like Travis mills. Essentially you missing there where he was like kind of a higher level like a high level. Athlete like having got used to it, and we talked about this about buds too, with jason I know a little bit where he was talking about you have highly wifely to really used to being high level in waning winning winning right? So but then they go through, but then they are losing them in their it shatters right and then you get someone like you just said, like you're just average, so you gotta, used to Dan L, offer a beat dying area for that, because we think that it's like, if you kind of concern
like. Why is that so it's kind of like the that the high level athlete to speak is used to a certain standard of of what winning is- and I would even say winning, I would say I would say- and again I say the advocates of its level of performance the high level athlete design his or her entire day and system around being a hundred percent for the moment right. It's this idea of a peak performers, one percent of the moment, and so when they come in, when environments, where hunter percent doesn't, exist or say: oh great, IRAN. Recent we're going to take down a zero they're, just not used to it, and so I think I think a lot of the the the the div one. Athletes who who go and don't make it are just not used to being at a performance level of of of not a hundred, let alone zere. As you know, we
We love to be a hundred, but like if someone came to us were poor remission said you know what I am my shoulders. Can a ninety percent of economists at this one, our electorate, what environments like it? If I live? No, it's more like telling a guy that like has a freak and broken leg like hey bro, you can you gotta, go I'm sorry, I don't I'm gonna go up good! Is it? What is the difference, rugby players and everybody else? Rather, seals are more like ruddy recognised for you. I think that is the level of performance so like the in not to put too fine a tip on it, but like literally someone who so used to winning- and so you some performing at them, ass more or less it's also like their level of standard of what they would call says in their mind- is like so high, so anything below that threshold is kind like all my will not have been exerted might in this, and I think there are big you're onto something again. We can't became in digging amount minded these folks This is gonna. You know I I keep on saying. Fighting fighting is: is it sport you go into and your literally going in and expecting to get hurt. You gonna go
did the whole game is you're going to go from one hundred per cent down to whatever percent. Knocks you out right or you're, not got that other guy. That is a whole different mentality than a lot of other sports writing. So I think I think these types of distinctions are really interesting to me. Don't you know you have to be carefully, don't put labels on things, but I like dissecting, that's dear that's the scary thing took us whatever example you bring up there's a counter example. yeah. For every example we like well, this guy was started. He quit theirs of goods. That made it yeah, there's a stud that failed that whatever he was like a cool. I got it like in there's just a counter there. It's counter to every example that you can come up with yeah and I don't mean necessarily like the whole guy or I'm just saying that element yeah yeah yeah. If we could die if, if we could figure those things out, then you'd start to be able to figure out who's going to make it through. I think, but you have to look at the whole, you can't just look at their their life and athletics. You'd have to look at their whole life. I mean cause there's because all those great attributes, all those metal good average, all those directories they're all execute in other areas of life too. I mean I talk about, I mean seals.
Yeah, but there are some gritty people out there who are way greedier than seals right I mean so so. These contexts of life can be training, improving crowns for people and athletic says why that the top athlete might have had a whole different contexts inside of which he or she just Just knocked out was used to being its euro and then they make it that would make sense for the restless cause they're cutting weighed in all this lay very starving themselves. Like that said, I would make sense and lay still quit by the way division. One ready made some go and freaking columbo, that's what happens. Her story from one instructors, told me that got a guy. That was a total starts like Just an awesome fast frigate stronger to stud, and they like they do things like put on runs where this before miles, but it's actually four point six whatever or they make you do much exercise before, and so they fail. Everybody, though, that the alleged, though at three
I pass or whatever it'd you. She, those guys did it, and this guy, like it was like first day whatever of first phase so he's gone to other. retraining and then the They're, like you, fail and he's like you got me, I quit materialise war. Ok here it is it's actually crazy. You think about guys that sign up for the navy in Instead, the navy for six years of it alive now tell their girlfriend. Tell their parents tell all the friends I'm going to be your shield and they show up there in the first, if we can call it crazy. It is really, I think, parlance the myth of slow because cause, even even reading about the training he'd read about how he got it. Don't you just don't experience until they're hit the beaches that that first day tell me some young guy, the other day. You know like. He always dad or whatever some of us in this, is a family contacts like note, like a family had met me or like a father and son, or something and the kids like
the data, he wants to be a seal and also guy. You know it's really hard Most people don't make it most, people quit and like looking at me as if brow now. What are you look? I gotta go and most people look at me like you, look at me right now like clearly? It's not gonna, be I go everyone shows up their thinking, they're gonna make it an percent of em ring the bell. So I wish you luck, don't quit! That's my way yeah I was. I was in a group of again good, dudes or company were working for about ten of us and they were all talking about seal training and and and almost all of them, for, like a half I'd love to be a seal, I think I could do it. If I I think I could do it. I think I could look at unless it listen. There's ten people in here, ok about eighty five percent quit so We are in an already got through, so the odds aren't good point: five euro american point. Five remedy: is you make it right here
bergamo, always a fan of discipline? Yes, ability to remain focused and steadfast to achieve a result, but what's interesting this is called that the chapter title is the self disciplined loser? Yes, and what s interesting is is echoing I talk this you know, people that have high amounts of discipline in certain areas just don't apply to other aspects of their life. It's that difference between what I call outer and inner discipline to talk about it, yeah and so, and so the discipline I taught by the book is really our displeasure, the that making. I choose, where or deciding upon a goal that the outside world has a say in whether or not you accomplish okay, that could be a navy seal. Writing a book becoming a best selling author being a great chef
whatever whatever that might be. The outside world has a say in whether or not you can accomplish so so so the so the discipline required to accomplish that takes a different level. It takes adaptability, takes flexibility, takes an understanding of you have to shift. You have to move right, but then they're self discipline, okay, self discipline of speech of those goal at the outside world has no say in whether or not you accomplish. So that's like me, saying I'm to eat healthier and I'm in vegas next week, while I'm at the bar, the buffeted macro, throw pastries at me. Ok, it's all on me again his work. It's interesting as I asked myself, can these exist apparently I have known people who are high elitist self discipline, they have a routine. They work out really to eat right, blah blah blah. They can't get a combo of a long term goal accomplished for there to save our last rape. I've seen people I'm actually wanted. He's, whose I'm highly discipline like I can get audacious calls accomplished. You know, and I'm good at it right myself this
sucks. I have the work really hard for me. Right I was joke is like I don't even like to tell myself what to do. Let alone we saw the best is about That's right! But again, when you start separating these and seeing that they can live independently, you start really understanding your performance. So if you have the the the said, listen, I'm really high on self discipline can get. It is really high self this. When people love structure, they love routine, guess what's gonna happen. If you try to be a navy seal or be best author or be whatever you name, the outside got your routines. It showed with you're, not committed work out one day or night of elite. The same thing you want to eat right, so so that's why they follow the the the really well disciplined person. People have of audacious goals were really good at adapting were like oh yeah, throw it at me or af. I'm good bro right, but like now, I see, as I have you've got to be structure I don't hate that right, I so so. Obviously the the best, the best is how
new balance or at least understanding where you may fall higher and lower in those scales so that you can affect you can affect each side into our effect each side independently and get yourself to where you need to go. Yeah. I think you know so. I wrote a book called this political freedom field manual, but I'll talk about when, when I'm talking to companies and also about aids, This is dichotomy as well. inside of a team, if your overly disciplined as a team, all of a sudden people, don't they stop thinking, We can only if all the rules, you know the dmz. in many ways, is a highly disciplined organization. They're going to follow that rule, oh you're, in the wrong line. Go get that other line. Now they don't go: hey cool, hey! We can just move you over here or I can do with this. I know there are highly disciplined and therefore highly effective, so you can go just like any of these things. Taken to extreme and it's gonna. It's gonna cause problems. Someone who quick someone asked me about once about disappointing for freedoms, what thing by think and disbelief equal freedom. I said I said yeah he's absolutely right.
Only thing that we have to add on a tagline is discipline, equals freedom to be undisciplined riah, because if you You discipline yourself to a degree you Allow yourself the freedom to once in a while be undisciplined, you know and that's the dichotomy and it it. It happens with teams as well- and this is the example that I give all the time is if we're out on a target and Here's another building that needs it could take it down, and I I can just look at you: go rich, go hit that building too and you'd be cool got it. You didn't need to tell me that people are going to take or what method of venture you're going to use or what going to do with the people that you captured. You didn't tell me that, because we have discipline standard operating procedures which gave us all kinds of freedom, so we have the discipline which gives us freedom to then move and maneuver quicker, and then on a personal level. This occurred for the first time I was at this kid's birthday party. Little birthday party, and they had cake. and ice cream cake, which I think that's one what because cake was reluctant cake
Kick is generally, in my opinion, dry right crossing good, but a lot of time. make itself dry. It's not it's not enough. The brute bring me over the edge ice can kick. Different story right, so many ways, ice, cream, cake rules out the ice can kick gets caught up and I've slap of slab of that thing run over by a little plastic party plate, and the grandma. Who else is like friends, the family, the grandma he's from germany and she's like Jacko, I thought we were discipline, and I said man this is the freedom party. Like you, said right now, like richest set you gotta have. The disciplines are occasionally without ice. Kate shows up with the with the ground:
what kind of oreo ceremony on the bottom. You know what I'm talking about right: the crust of oreos type thing yep. They did the rate there that they did they. They made good moves crossing the mint chocolate chip ice cream in there. So, yes, we have the discipline it'll, give us freedom ultimately to do what we want. that's what that everyone was the tagline. You added on discipline equals the free to be undisciplined once more. Very I guess I put what freedom and on discipline in the same category right away. So there we go discipline next one. open, mindedness, a willingness to consider and accept new ideas, opinions or perspectives, This is again come coming from a book the psychology of military competence, this is major downfall of leaders, have authoritarian mindset is their mind is closed. I don't hear your idea
Now I want to hear your idea that I want to hear the entire report that just came out that I want to take the feedback from the guys around the front. Want that close minded they are and this causes all kinds of problems it does and I, You know in sony, I put open mindedness specifically in the book to speak to optimal performance. There's another attribute called curiosity, which I don't talk about in the book and the difference between the tos is really a and activeness and a passiveness korea, curiosity is, is proactive, open minus I'm going to go whereas open mindedness is his passive. So that's you and I go into th and you know we meet our local friend, a local friend says: hey, I'm going to take you the most authentic thai place and you're like cool or outdoor, got good good. That's open minded or we go to thailand, we made our local tie friend, we say, take us to the most authentic restaurant right, that's being curious, right and so very interesting lead. These can exist independently right. So the
you can be curious without being open minded, he could be open minded without being cures being open minded without being curious. That's ok! Ok! It's not too bad! You just passively woman. If you are curious, without being open minded, it can be dangerous as a leader. This is the seeds of conspiracy theory. Right. I know what I want to build. eve and I'm curious to find out why its rights right and the and the leaders who are curious without being open minded stands the fbi, Mozart. An interesting one open it is then can to some extent, be debilitate, sorry, deliberate process, What I like us, we just talked about someone of other part gas where I was saying that the path a contrary in mind, if you, extreme. Obviously, it's bad enough work for bosses are you do they were contrary, and so it is because What drag everything was I hold is another way to do this, even if it make any sense we're not gonna do different way, but the ilo
this idea of open mindedness making it the process and when I say was being a contrary and it's gonna You see the counter intuitive options that you might not see. If you didn't act, we try and say: ok, let me get deliberate about what the way to make this happen, I just listened to that it was. I totally agree that this is a idea of the devil's advocate and, I always said, hey. I I really wanted the occasion, devils advocate, but it had be a productive devils advocate not aid, not just to know the island has asked. If I had a boss, there was very contrary on everything. It look great guy. But you know Eventually, you're, just like yup got it for you, wow, that's crazy, fast! Well, that's not cool yeah we'd move on now right right! Next, when you ve mentioned this one already cunning the ability to consider problems and circumstances from unusual and unorthodox perspectives in order to achieve a goal or objective story that you telling here is pretty cool and every
this park S will provoke, is about chuckle, adele and base. we are talking to some of your guys and who could be chuck, liddell and fighting and everyone's. I the knows the deal you know if you train combative at all. You know if you go up- and this is at the time period when chuckle del was the lighthouse champion a world answer you every of trained. You know the chocolate else. Gonna beat your ass because he's way better than you are, and you got one guy, that's like I'll. Take him then it's like. Oh, what do you mean? How could you take it when he says I'll? Take him as long as I get to dictate when and where we fight, but what he meant by that well want to fight him at two, a in the dark in the ocean down at fifty feet and then I'll. Take chuckled makes it the better that you're calling becoming mind, approaches a problem and immediately asked requests. The question it asks is: first, are their roles and boundaries set is? Are they real or are they perceived, and the third is if they are real, what happens if I break them and then goes about looking at different ways and this x,
is that is one of the primary qualities of navy seals. Is the cunning mind? Is we we? We are not constrained, rules and objectives you have in your conning is a pejorative word implies. Sneaking, is deception using trickery to an unfair advantage, but I'm using in a broader sense as a neutral term. It might include deception any given time, but not always rather I mean, billy to disregard the unspoken and often official rules when appropriate to consider objects and circumstances from unorthodox perspectives, this is a weird one in this day and age. ok, sir you're in buds, basic seal training- and I heard two things where I went through, but one of them you're, not you, you're not trying to do and the other one. you cheating, you're, only cheating yourself and many others been. Obviously you know buds is pre high on the radar
as far as what what's going on there, but that's a difficult balance, but there is low There is no right answer you you want to have guys are like wait, a second. classic example. You know the instructor accounts they all right, you, you do and log pity, which means you're, you're you're on your squad with six guys or seven guys, you're carrying this log, and I think this is in this book. Her a real out of books is that they want to but anyways the guys the instructor comes out. Ok, take it run down around the berm and run back. Don't do anything that I don't do just do what I told you to do. Take your team run around the burma come back, and so the teams pick up the logs run. One one leader says: I let's go guys and leaves the lock because they didn't get told they had to take it. So that's a person, that's like thinking outside the box, good job, right, right, good job and I think
Talk about in this book. Is that the dragon right yes go: go rescue the dragon whose guarding go rest. the princess whose guarded by the dragon, and what the seal mindset is well. Can we just avoid the dragon quickly? How can we do not even have to deal with the dragon? Go snob deliver pizza to the princess and then sneaker out, problems, some slices of at the dragon to and he's good supposed to going to fight the dragon where we take ass, what do you? What do you think? What do you make of that balance that they look for in buds of someone? That's going to break the rules without Breaking the rules yeah it's so so hank and I talked about this. We having coffee and it was actually in the context of the the recent controversy of of of the students that still training using using substances and and in the the common thoughts for most of us. Like that's, we feel like they're, stolen valor right I mean, if you're not going to
but the way you're supposed to do it, then that storm power and but there's a reason right because, as is different than cheating, and will end what we came up with right or wrong. But I, like your thoughts, is that if your cheating and its hurting the team, its back right, if your cheating in a context to get the team to accomplish a mission right, that's dick. right and what what what we eat, what we were looking at that conversation about substance abuse is you're you're doing here, your cheating, the jeanne the process by which we will understand that you can go to combat with us and anything. We need you to do right because you're you're, giving yourself physical, so what are you doing so so you ain't, cheating Try to try and is about is about looking at the problem differently for the purpose of making the team successful and there's no selfishness involved with it right, and I think that's the he again, there's benevolent cunning right. That's that's oscar schindler, theirs, there's malevolent cunning right? That spurning made off, I mean so so so
even being divisive or devious right. You can do it in a benevolent way and these guys who would be curious, omitted the guy you, ran around the firm without the log they probably got beat up gesine other structures like, but they probably the out the instruction frolic actually is pretty good. in writing because our seeing their see in some different ways of thinking as long as it's in service, the team, selfish cheating, is where we travel on. I was a team to we were doing. Seek you see at whatever black? What is now called hey? I can members change ten had this one of them one the mount towns they had like a facade want one side. The street was just a facade, so there was only this. There was a street a fake stream, and then it was like a hollywood for you, echo charles, like the front of buildings but they had windows and doors and all the stuff, and we had target that we were supposed to hit where we
I had to like go right in front of that street and the few runs that we'd done already. The guys were hiding in those facades and just shooting the shit hours. So you know we're just doing quick. Iteration runs and unlike our alright gonna, do and we moved a few guys, like the bulk of the opportune, just ran right, down the field to the mount town and started doing the clearance towards the target, but we sent like four guys, ran all the way around the berm all the way around to the back of the facades and as we initiated the target they just shot all the op four in the back, you know Furthermore, like immediately- and I was one of those things whether where they were like Take a job rushed like you. Do we weren't watching our sex and you get your ass? They were stoked about it. So I what I wrote down was like that fury of la kinda, like this be rid of the rule like. If you break, I think
something where you have to judge like wait. A second. Are we actually doing something? That's breaking the spirit of the evolution like and bugs yell. are we doing something that actually is is just not the right thing brains, If the detriment of the team or at the detriment of true training right, I mean you know, yeah yeah and what I thought you were acting to say when you're talking about you and hank talking about doing steroids or whatever in, but at what. I thought you say, and I agree with what you said, but also, if You're in a boat crew. an arm on steroids and you're not I can go a little bit faster and now you're having to keep with me and you're you'll have the benefit of being juice to the gills as they say, which isn't rob now I mean From what I understand that the steroids as a whole and knock and help you get through, but no it's gonna be a detriment. Yes, so hopefully
geyser here that mass welcome its would baffles my mind is the guys who are doing it. The they haven't got it because it's not about. looking good is not about winning it. If you can win, it think ray it's up, even if you mean there's no score, I'm the guy, who wins nothing but still makes a through still becomes a navy see around us. Lila was you said earlier, is like pay, you can do, let's say you and I get drop down on you do the gills and you're, not a cop, you a hundred and seventeen pushups before you went face first yet deserve. I did a hundred and thirty right, I did an extra thirty pushups. No one knows no one cares. We both end up wet. I cooled off faster and faster, as all my buddy who's who's running goes in first phase told me a story. He said it was hell week and they were doing this evolution hell week. I can't remember it's called it's called. I think it's called a double up where they run, they have the class run two miles and then when they have a certain time to do it and you whoever fails that time has to do it right or wrong. You do it again or immediately do another tool.
and he said dumb this class. It was, of course there are basically, apparently they they got in word and all that stuff there there are super prepare right, they go to this two mile run the the every single person passes. It was like holy crap, every single except one dude, and this dude is like way far behind used to struggling as class passes there sitting there and the dude finishes in their like ok, you know it did how does duties is some who didn't pass? Ok, you're gonna go or get some water. Are you going to do it again, so he walks over to the the class the class kind of circle them huddle around him about a minute. Later, the kid comes back to the instructions heya, I'm I'm quitting, I'm a dealer right, so he quits, and so my buddy goes to the class leader, says: hey ya what what went on there said. Well, you know we, I dunno he just he. We, we were all prepared to win that, and you know he and now he didn't. He didn't live up and we kind of are. We felt like his private time he's like my buddies like come, you guys are idiots,
What is it you guys could have been sitting around doing nothing while he ran after two miles. Did you ever think about that one now you're going to get beat so this is this? Is thinking outside the box right in a different way right. So it's it's! This idea of our we break the paradigms of our thinking. This is what speck cops was designed with the first basin and is how we wish we we conduct war. I mean I remember we were changing tactics all the time to try to stay ahead, because you know we had to you know. So. I think the cunning mines, used benevolently and use it. service to others is a huge ass. It definitely What what? What what the seal to use and like you, said what that's, what special operations is for. You know too, but a problem say: pull on a second or those Three questions you had. Those are three good questions. Yeah first question is: are there rules and boundaries? Second question? Are they real or are they perceived? Third question is what happens,
I break them if they are real, what happens if I break them? schools are good. Echoing I just did, for our part cas about the game. Aim we're just about the game and, above all, the different aims at your plan and life game and job game and digital was a game and relationships is a game all these things, but those are three really good questions and, and we actually ended up talking about the infinite game versus the finite game, and I know you mention that in here as well, but yet always, checking things out and say: wait a second. We know why we ve, that's gonna, contrary in mind that I have is acquire even unison. What what? What? What? If? What? If we don't do, this its healthy scepticism, and I think that really is a valuable asset. Healthy scepticism, powerful now. We can do this the fun one yeah. You mentioned this one. It's all about me, but Closing line of the book leadership strategy in taxes- it's on you, but not about you,
narcissism desire. Stand out to be noticed to be recognised when I was lying on a california beach in the dark, the call pacific surf crashing over me at the mill both height of how weak I was not driven by selfless service to my country, had lena my deep patriotism and I was not inspired by a sense of sacrifice or duty. To be honest, none of those high minded ideals were even the primary reason. I wanted to be a navy seal in the first place, all those are part of me, but of course, all those we of course, but they are. Why signed up for buds training. So why did I for the same reason, every seal does to see if I could be a bad, ass, special operator to prove that I was good enough. Tough enough strong enough to be recognised as a member of an elite fraternity. In a word, I was motivated by narcissism. That's another one of those words that typically, is considered pejorative. An excessive amount of narcissism, in fact, is clear.
We recognise personality disorder, but in the layman's version of the term, narcissism is one of the elements of engines of human behaviour. The innate attribute that is us to strive to succeed, to be noticed in healthy doses, it's important for optimal performance, yeah, I got a. I got a copy of the dsm five, which is the psychological bible, because I want to make sure I was looking at this correctly as in the dsm five. They have a couple of pages on narcissism and in the end, the disorder, and they have nine criteria in there that you read like sentences and that the idea If the. If the doktor reads these nine and five and a patient's, he can say yes, five or more than the patient is, is, is considered disorder. And so I start reading through these nine and as I read through them, I did not have five or more, but I was not innocent All that I was reading says. Ok. I asked myself the question: why did it becomes a scene in the first place and because you know all those things exist, but I wanted to see if I could do something very.
if people could do and the idea- and the other thing is when you look at the neurology the neuroscience of this, an infant, that's getting recognized and adored by it's parents is getting bursts of dopamine, serotonin and oxytocin. All very powerful feel good chemicals right. It feels good to be recognized and noticed, doesn't change when Rendell told so so the the the thesis is and it's the impetus to some very audacious goals that we for ourselves. It has to be the tabloids and healthy way and the way we metabolize it unhealthy ways which surround ourselves with people who tell us the truth. You can always tell the disordered narcissist because they surround themselves with yes, men people tell them what they want to hear. People put them on a pedestal, and it's interesting because as groups are very transient, so someone who can't bend the knee for very long will. Leave eventually will that person who just left immediately becomes enemy number one to that narcissist. That's just the way it works, and so so we can say we don't know, a lot of people would wouldn't argue the fact and you we could debate this
that hollywood is generally considered a narcissistic town- If you look at some of the most kind of them, the healthiest most stable hollywood actors and actresses, they are people who surrounded themselves as with people who were there just normal around try and so, and so we just most of the people who don't put us in a palace or who tell us the truth, who keep us humble, that's our teammates. By the way. That's our wives. If we marry the right person and we can really use narcissism too great advantage, because why Why else would I want to be a navy seal? Why else would I want to write a best selling book? Why else would I want to be the best surgeon, the best athlete the best teacher whatever that is, So the ideas I understand or humanists, recognize or humanists: don't do it don't ignore it? Don't pretend it's not there just recognize it and body it and try to metabolize metabolism. you say this, people who fall too high and the narcissism scale, however, can be
dangerous in a simple sense, those more narcissistic types favour the quick hits of serotonin dopamine oval longer lacks lasting oxy. What's it oxytocin oxytocin. they need those constant reinforcements because their self esteem is either very fragile, are very low. Despite presenting as arrogant their generally feel unsafe and insecure. stream we sensitive to pursue injuries from criticism or defeat, and they ve easily feel humiliated or degraded. To prevent that highly narcissistic people. Try to themselves at the centre of small tights, sickened sycophantic tribes, I rarely loyal, loyalty, wires, trust and a sense of safety, so their tribes are inherently unstable. How we members tend not to stay long and new ones that are let in only when they show the requisite deference. Those
who do leave usually suffer a disproportionate amount of wrath from the person to whom they once deferred, because defectors are considered enemies. So, beware, the highly narcissistic people in your sphere, their energy effort, will more not be to prop up fragile egos rather than to achieve shared objectives or serve a common purpose. They are definition, not teen players if they sent? You are distancing yourself if you are not obviously on their team, the we lash out diminishing you in an effort to inflate themselves of all narcissism, doesn't show up clearly in the mirror, the more narcissistic a person is the less likely it is that they'll recognised that behaviour. This is one of the biggest on things that we do. teach your eyes the key components for most support characteristic,
for a leader to have is humility and the reason that we there is none found that we have to win into. That is because you're working with people are leadership, leadership positions lieutenant they got there because they have coffins right. They got their big, the now we did they have conference. They did well all and were rewarded, and got rewarded, they did even better and then they get promoted and then, when they get promoted their profits are the do well again, and so they get this. So we. a tendency when working with enemies in the seals, like occasionally We would have a young officer that was four indexing email like just lacking conference right occasionally that was way more often than not, it was someone that was ido. Hey already know how to do this, hey. I agree. We did this. My way like that was the norm and it's the same thing in the business world, like you, don't become the ceo of a big company, because you are overly humble, you got there, because your confident and then the more
good decisions, jamaican more success. You have the more than You go get out of control and that's when we, the problems. So that's a good one, yeah and and also that confidence. I almost ten. This sometimes separate confidence. I consider arrogance, the opposite of humility. And and arrogance. The way I talk about those right when I talk about organisations is, is arrogance? Is our confidence. As I know I can do. This arrogance is better than you. Confidences is internally focused and arrogance is x, externally expressed and soak. Obviously, confidence is quite arrogance is loud. against almost always comes from a place of insecurity, and so- and so you can have a very very humble you can have a very very coffin person is very humble right. I mean that most of the masters out there that we will leave you encounter very confident, but also humble in the hollow humility. In my in my mind, is really just a it's, not a type, a deference. It's really just
I stand that. I always have something to learn. I always I have I I oh there's always someone who can teach me something and I'm open minded to it. not necessarily right. That's right! Yes, and so on, and so some people, so so lotteries bodies, folks again the opium If you look at the studies, a lot of the top like entrepreneurs like the very successful they're, a little bit higher on the narcissistic scale, but it's because those endeavors required a little bit of that to get it going. Can I can do to spark that? But if you want to keep on going, you just have the manager, yeah and that could bite him in the ass to see these petal employ. You know self destruct help because yeah it takes a level of confidence, leaning towards arrogance. To get to like hey, I'm going to take this money from you and I'm going to kick ass and we're going to create this thing. That's never been done before. I tell you we got up some level of arrogance pushing in that direction, but then they to appoint, or they get to a point where all the sun on I'm not listening to you, I'm not taking before. I guess said before, I'm so,
confident what I'm saying I'm now into arrogance. Now, I'm not listening to my advisers are not listening to the market. Hey people don't know what they want to be sure. I just don't know what they want, I'm going to educate them. That's when you have people just self destruct wishes he's crazy to see an unfortunate or a timetable, went to the leadership. attributes. Leadership is not a position, its behaviour and you don't get to decide if you're doing it. Well, I really like that you look at the side of your good leader, not meters aright, fighting defined by those whom they lead. You can't declare yourself to be a leader, announcing that you're funny you might think you, you might think so, but if you can't make anyone laugh you're, not funny whether you're, actually a leader, not just a person in charge, is entirely up to other people and great leaders were told, get, it again are trustworthy, they listen and they care they're, selfless, authentic and accountable. Some Sanctions describes, skills, listen
for one is greatly unappreciated skill, but most of them are attributes. There are five that are key leadership. Empathy selflessness authenticity, decisiveness and accountability skills like time management delegation in listening will enhance those leadership attributes, but they are not critical. In fact, mastery of Any particular skill is not required. So here we get into these leadership at that attributes. The first one empathy, the ability the deliberate or not to join the emotional state of another person to feel what some else's what someone else feels. definitely important. It is in dumb, then overlooked. Quite a bit. I mean you know I always to define team guys, especially team team guy leaders biting, I think, team guy holistically holistically as as the best guys having kind of an empathy dimmer switch. So we know when to dial up and went to dilute down. This just stems
The idea that we were out there doing combat and in one second year, you're killing a terrorist and the next second year, caring for in a mother and kids right, and so this it's a dial, but, but if we don't, as leaders take take the time to feel what other people feel. Then they will not feel care for if someone doesn't feel care for they don't look at you as a leader. What's interesting about these attributes is that when I got on the navy so good friend of mine, simon sinek author. He linked me up with a great leadership organization, called the chapman and chapman leadership institute. So I went around teaching leadership and kind of their style, and things like that. We'd go around the country around the globe and we'd get in front of his audiences. We say just ask a question: what do great leaders do and we'd have a flip chart next to us and we just have people
allow things, and we just make a list of about twenty five. Thirty things, no matter where we went the list was always the same stuff. Always it doesn't matter what country, what what state? What generation it was always the same stuff and always within the top. Ten were those five where those five thinks selflessness, accountability, empathy, empathy, a lot of times was number one or number two so, and so it matters to to take that time, and it does take time it does take effort. But when you expend time and effort, that's also a display of carrying you know, a good friend of mine used to say time is the currency of leadership, because everybody has the same and when it's spent can't you can't get it back and so will you, when you spend time to help another, they will feel care for so yeah that even the pragmatic perspective of understood what other people's perspectives are and so important of eve word gonna plant emission and you work for me.
I see some kind of resistance like you, don't want to do it or you got some some qualms about doing it like for me too, actually say wait. A second. Was you see that I don't see? What does he know that I dont know deepened, a pragmatic perspective? That's like tactical. You know, empathy but what are you actually seeing is is so important and- and I was telling- both you, I've got up. I talk, not making emotional decisions, don't make motionless, isn't obviously- and I always ask groups of people who here who nears made an emotional decision, haven't, raise their hands. Who has made a good emotionalism. Everyone's ants goes down, so we don't want to make emotional decisions at the same time. You have put emotions into the calculus of decision that you're making yes so my team is mad. Need to think about what we're doing. If my team is upset about something if their overall aggressive mindset. I've gotta take those emotions into account when I'm making a decision about what we're gonna do. So it's not totally void of emotions, but you gotta
understand one other people's emotions are understand what their perspective is and that's what I that's what empathy is all about? Well then, one more quick note- and this is really important- empathy does not require agreement and- and we have to understand, is in our country- could could do right by understand. This is an example. We were in Iraq and we saw unfortunate event than that weapons. Unfortunately, too often it was, I think, twelve or thirteen year old kid attempted to fire a rocket propelled grenade at a at a convoy and- and you know, unfortunately, got cut killed doing so because they can't have that happen and more virtuous team, guys at the end of the day, were around a fire like we always do at that. Over overseas were on fire just chatting and this thing came up and we we kind of settled well, let's, let's walk this thing back for a second. You know this kid twelve thirteen years old, he probably has no father so I'll, just probably gone or dead he's price, probably him just taking care of his mom and his sisters, no school, no loud music, no sports,
No parties, no girls, nothing to get his testosterone out on one day, the bad guys come and say we will give you a hundred diener to go fire this rock of appropriate at this year's conference every single one of us navy seals said we would be that kid. If we had been, in that environment, we would be that kid right. That is empathy right and that's he without a green learn agree with what the kids doing over the king did, but we can totally. Put ourselves in that person, shoes and so so. The active emma he does not require agreement. It really just requires effort. While that also reminds me of home when I was in a leadership position in a seal platoon or a seal task unit. I would look at these. Eyes, these young seals that are too twenty one, twenty two twenty three years old and they do some arclight stuff, I would always remember that was me I was that kid stirred we'll be back here right. I was a kid, so the
remembering where you came from and remembering what other peoples are, people are and understanding where thereat. That's what that with this why this is so important. Nepal, naturally for leaders to have for sure. Selflessness, placing the needs and well being of others above one's own despite real or perceived risk your had this Angela. Progress without your petersen and and what I ended up. saying was ivory what the conversation, but I was trying to explain what made a good seal and you know it, Spain, the fact that look, you can be a great shot, you can be a fast runner. you can be a great diver. You can have all the parachute skills but if you are the type of person that doesnt put the team first known, wants you of tat period and that's exactly what you're talking about here and there
the difference, because another attribute his generosity and we have that in our in our kind of a full attribute list, but there's a difference between generosity and selflessness and that the difference is that risk factor right, generosity is, can be done without risk and that's fine. It's great to be generous. Foolishness is at risk. There's your putting yourself at risk in some way and when people how you doing that they they tend to say this as someone I want for europe, there is a whole theme that I've been talking about for the past couple years when it comes to building relationships with people? What does relationship consults consist of? Well, if trust, you know if I trust you, you trust me We have a relationship if I expect you and you respect me. We have relationship contrary. If you don't trust me or I don't trust you, we don't have relationship. Have her final respect. You respect me on a relationship. If I, if influence mural in and you're not influenced by me at all. We don't have a relationship, I mean. If we have relationship, we should influence each other and the last one was listening. If I don't listen to you and you listen to me, we
have relationship but but the final one, which I just added the other day. It's one of those ones that was so sitting in front of my face that it I didn't say it and that's of course, care which you know we ve mentioned, which is but the interesting thing this kind of reflection? What we're talking about every one of these. If I weren't you You listen to me. How do I make that happen I listened to your guts. I want you to remove the respect I tree with respect. I want to I want you to be influenced by me. I better allow myself to have an open mind to be influenced by you and the carrying of course take care you in most cases, you're going to take care of your luck. If you're, a narcissistic, bastard or whatever, there's always gonna, be people that you know. I trust you and you screw me over. I listen to you and there's a small amount of people out there in the world that are just other egos, nerd they're, just then did and did souls right where their terrible people
unfortunately, but for the most part- take care of other people that take care of you you you, show that selflessness and sacrifice and they'll be willing to do the same thing for you and this by the way the only time you can use leadership as the noun leaders go. First, they go first in behavior right, you model the behalf. You want to see more of, and then you reward the behaviour we want to see more of. If you want more empathy in there, people, you are better understand of care. You modeling, and then you reward empathy and that's the problem. If you don't stand that you're, not gonna, because people will automatically you other they'll do what you were. The rewards. You know flow and they'll they'll do with a vast us right if they, if they, if they feel good about it. So that's only time you go first as a leader. Next one here decisiveness: the ability to make decisions quickly and effectively. You say decisiveness is the ability to make clear, well informed and timely decisions. The last tyrian timeliness is what separates,
person with a high level decisiveness from a person, merely makes solid decisions in any. Eric environment, didn t to make even good decision is ineffective because the environment changes so quickly, so This is one that I've I wrote about this one in you're subtracting charging tactics, and I talk about the fact that I was decisive in the ceilings but I always cheated and the way there she did was. I would make very small decisions very quickly. I wouldn't try and figure out everything that was going on that in the next, Four hours of of a scenario, I would figure. ok, what's going on right now that I can see it, I can get we can make a move, and I want to do that pretty quickly. and then I'm gonna pay attention and feedback run, Loop paves the feedback and make another very quick decision and
that's a very broad called the iterative decision making process gap. Now it's a little decisions quickly. That's your compartmentalization loop go onto your minutes, it's really effective. The one thing I do want to highlight and I I didn't say this earlier- a great way to determine whether something is a skill or an attribute is to ask a simple question. That question is: can I teach it or can it be taught if the answer's? Yes, it's probably a skill? The answer is no it's attribute. So so someone could come up to us and say hey. I want to learn how to shoot a pistol and hit a bull's eye. While we could take out someone after the range and teach them how to do that in two hours right someone else could say. I want to learn how to be more patient. We can't teach you to be more patient and so to develop. An attribute you're low on requires a it requires three things, a of a knowledge that you need to develop at a motivation to develop it and then a deliberate at a deliberate effort to step into environments that test and tease and developed that attribute. So if you want to develop your patience, for example, go find environments that test and teaser pages,
whatever that looks like for you, it could be, I'm gonna deliberately go drive in traffic. I want to pick the longest line at the grocery store sand and I usually have kids that will develop your patience, but the reason why I bring that up is because I want to separate making decisions with decisiveness. Just making decisions is a skill. You can actually teach someone to make better decisions and how they gather information. He can it's a skill that can be taught decisive, This adds a speed and efficiency of factor to it, and some people are just higher on the decisive attribute than others, but but no, it's it's rare! I dont want to beat the be defended, but it's rare leaders are looked at as leaders if they are indecisive and there are some people I've served with and served under, who were really great d. John makers, but it was a long protracted to get them. There was a painful process like on my gosh, I mean and and again against, just didn't, feel leadership. Nor was wild that you and I both got her experience being pre war and then living in the war. The
the ninety six hour planning cycle, and that was you know what we say a kind of entered into the scene in the mid nineties. It became a thing, like this is a we probably eventually caught that you got passed down through the army and eventually made it into the seal teams and eventually got into friggin lowly see opportune. Where I was news, I can help it's a ninety six, our planning cycle and me and I remember my boss, Now? That's your team! Seven he's- how much time do you guys need to launch on a mission? zack, expecting some alec fifteen minutes he was a diabetic. I was like yeah fifty minutes or- and I had great relationship with my boss until two examples I got fifteen minutes were wrong. He said How can that be other? Tell me why, the target is Tommy the friendly, that's in the area, what frequency there on and we roll we can make this happen.
Difference for the ninety six hour, tell you when I got to our adversaries are doing ops. I was so happy that I because remember how many briefs it was like he had to do like seven different briefs and was all like painstaking. We get to Iraq and it's like a caught up girl, Hanako, even the khan ups. In fact, in fact, that was She a m a real challenge in combat and complacency that the speed with which we could move really showed me and it made made me really think about. Okay, we gotta make sure that we're actually thinking through things versus just snapping on what we usually do. All that said you know I just I didn't like the ninety six by cycle or for four that we know about the way to combat that a good little protocol to combat the We got to a groove and getting a poisonous, as often as I could out, have my subordinates, come up with a plan like. You guys, hey here's. The mission come all the way and I am detached I'm looking at it from a distance if they start forward up there to quit
are you just going to see the holes in it? That's powerful. The other thing I was thinking about when you're talking about teaching skills, verses. the miller, learning or developing attributes and interesting metaphor that I use in jiu arrived teaching a move into Let's say: there's ten things that you have to do right too move actually work in jiu jitsu, there's things that you have to do. I can we teach you like. Five of them, maybe deem listen. can teach you six, maybe up. Oh, Nor can teach you for. Does I could quite have it, but there is good we things that you have gotta put yourself in that situation and you ve got. Spanish yourself in order to get better at them. So I think that when you about putting yourself into these situations because look I know for a fact. I know you do too. I would see guys, overtime, improve, in all these attributes, sometimes they would- I should say, not always right
but sometimes you get someone that is, you know, they're they're, they're, just not very decisive they're, just not, but then you'd see you when I'm in that position. You talk to him about it. You can tell him a couple of things like hey, you need to have it figured out three things you could do and pick what's ones the best one. I could even that little help. It's a move that you can each them that can kind of start that can become part of their personalities in, and so you teach some of it, but ultimately you gotta develop at all time. Is that there's a line up with what your totally lines up and and and it actually brings up a good point- and that is when we, I kind of often relator relay to us, as as automobile humans really caught up with us. We're all different types right. Some of us are jeeps saucer Who do you suppose furs and there's a judge him? There is the jeep and do things of our can't do and if I can do things the gps, but it behoves us to lift our hutton forgot: what kind of engine we're running? with an there's. No again, there's no judgment on that
it also means that we don't necessarily have to be high on every attribute. In other words, I got you stand a comedy right. The stand up comic is too high and empathy. That could be a very good stand. A comic right so so being too high, may be detrimental to what you want to do. In your specific needs, but bottom line is when you start looking at developing these things, if you find that you just can't develop something, that means you adapt and you just I mean, and they can start playing off of each other. So I think I remember In fact, I think I remember hearing one of your examples on one one of the pot guess about talk. About a guy who was not given and very loud was allowed up, was in latvia and so and in you said, hate you occurs as you: gotta be louder, go any justice getting it so basically pulls the loudest guy over a teller guys to do this right, that's adaptability, that he's using his adaptability to buttress his low. Whatever LAO this attribute, however, and so you can eat some of these, though so, for example,
Low adaptability can be buttressed by high open mindedness right and you can actually that they can even out your performance. That way. That's why I'm here Banning these levels, and in yourself and your team is really born there. The guy was that guy was a very smart guy and did a good job. I was like yup, you just solve that problem and that's why building complimentary teams, when you know what you're at computer and like look not the guy, you want do, paperwork and right eye find the guy in my platoons or my jobs that are good at paperwork. I'm find that guy, I'm going take care of him to be my best friend cause. I'm gonna do paperwork right next, accountability, taking risks, the body for an ownership of your decisions, actions and the consequences thereof.
Stream ownership. I agree with that very much and I end by the way, a buttress two decisive. This right, you can't be effectively decisive if you haven't buttressed it with accountability, because you have to look at those decisions and say of it was the right decision. What are we doing? Do we need to make a different decision so credibly important, you see here, a complex environments. Take taking action is paramount, even if the action is making a decision. to do nothing, it's important to understand what you're doing and why just as important, recognising that any consequence of that action consequences of that action are your responsibility, Therefore, we almost decisions, be council and owning our decisions and actions serves several purposes one. It requires that we understand why we're doing whatever action we ve chosen, which in turn helps us to be fully committed to it, which are which
I'm late. We have been talking about this thing when my calling it the explanation. Effort meter, e m the explanation, effort meter, which is, it is if it is so hard for me to explain to you why this makes sense. I should but we really consider if it actually makes answer about not yeah. Don't be that hard. I am fairly articulate. I've got a good upon on what I'm trying to explain and if I can't get through to you, there's probably is something wrong with my idea. Now, look there's a chance that you just have a big ego in your your you know. Everyone loves their own idea the best. But if really that if my ideas that much superior to yours, I should be Explain that and articulate- and you should probably end up- not you're, had gone yeah. You know what you're right and public. Expending all this effort, trying to explain something and it's still wasn't getting landing with you and you're still not nodding. You had will then why you
What how much effort is worth it, let's face it. Guy, I've experienced. Many people you and me arguing about how to hit a target. neither one of us actually knows where the enemy is going to be. You know what they're how there can be set up, what we don't. We got ideas but they're gonna get a vote, and so you- and I did agreeing and being combated, and finally funnier signal what shut up I'm in charge. You do it my way, and then we go on a target where there's a you have no idea what actually going to happen any citizen in the business world. Do people want make an investment in this thing over here. The person doesn't want to make their investment when reality is no one really knows what's gonna happen anyway, can't convince you of that explanation- effort beaters, just read lined just homesickness, just consider Just consider, maybe it might not be worth the squeeze well into any of the hack too that the hack too, that is, if you encourage
you allow someone to make a decision to do something it. It automatically makes them accountable right that they own that in a way, you know the other thing. Ellie little time, because this is something that can sometimes they dont quite get it that leaders, leaders, and always delegate responsibility, but never accountability and that's really important, because I've had leaders who delegate both- and it's not good. I mean it's not fear that they do something goes wrong and, and they they back away, they push away. It's I don't know we're always audible! Now, I'm not saying that you look so people are well known the people you're giving responder accountable to as a gesture, but you are accountable and by you owning it. It just is the behaviour modeling that they need. Seymour They will also own it in their own, but but we can delegate responsibly. We cannot delegate accompany you another. another problem people run into an they want you. If I want rich to take ownership. So what do I say: ok, rich here's. The mission here
because I want you to take care of the people I want to take with you. Here's the weapons. I want you to use the rod. I want you to take the target they go through. The whole thing is now now that's the plan to take ownership of that plantago exactly right. It's like putting one of my favorite metallica songs, so one of my favorite albums and justice for all, but one of my favorite songs is eye of the beholder and the line in that is you can do it your own way? If you do it, how I say yeah exactly like yeah take ownership because it's a song about a pressures but the way it's awesome and it's so easy to say: hey man, here's the mission, how do you want to do right so much easier to say that I have to get you to buy anything into anything and yes is there a chance that you present to me a plan that completely insane and makes no sense sure, but if we working together and I've been showing you how we do this and have been, let me run little parts of the operations prior to this. You can to do, and you gotta give me a decent plan that work to be able to run with so
give ownership you go on to say here: purpose provides clarity, it's nearly impossible to truly own in action. If you aren't clear why you're taking it if you fully own your decisions, you better be able to explained the reasons behind them accountable, allows us to look objectively and critically at the result of a decision which helps us assess the results more accurately and make the next decision more effectively the mission if the mission plan ends up not working as well as possible. The accountable officer and men will studiously figure out what could have been on better, rather and dismissing any flaws, as the boss may, as do it that way. Better decisions will be made next time and everyone will improve a far better outcome, then repeating a cycle of grudgingly doing what the power, where's that be demand. Finally, taking responsibility for decisions and its results immediately engages an ability attribute. Remember: we. Human beings are wired
sense of our environment. While much of that happens, Automatically and unconsciously part of that process is very deliberate. So and is aware of the year the humility comes into mine to cause you're, not humble enough to be. I get. This was my decision and I made it and it didn't work and his way you fix it while the other ended the last thing I'll sit down, accountability cause. I don't think I mentioned it in the in the book. Is that especially for leaders' accountability allows patrol allows you to take when when you say I on this in times I've done this quite deliberately, even though I know I had nothing to do it. I just take, I say ion this: this is my fault right. If I take a steering wheel as soon as you place, blame europe gear, given a steering wheel, someone else and so so kind. Billy allows for taking control of environment and starting to steer the way he wants. the lifelong little little extreme ownership goes a long way. Team ability, attributes, team ability or reward to build
It's a word. I say I took from nsw, okay yeah, although I think we missed authenticity. That doesn't mean that's something. I think we missed authenticity. Okay, let's talk authenticity. The only reason why I need to say it I need to mentioned is because the guy I talk about in that chapter, Brian Mccabe, and he's a deeply authentic, I need, loves and has been to several of your masters, and I think of how I missed until so. I told him I'd I'd. I'd give him. This is the one that you there. This third is sorry I missed it off entities the degree to which a person's actions are consistent with his beliefs, values desires, despite extra process as a screw. You gave the coin to and he held onto air like yeah yeah. That's a great story again get the book read the story, very cool story. The history of giving coins- and what they mean and all that in this particular case, is a pretty cool story. Among all
the leadership attributes, authenticity is a most important for building trust authenticity by definition, Cappy faked it can't be copied, there's, no, but no checklist of external behaviors or attitudes that are the model of authenticity being firm and taciturn doesn't make one. Any more or less of a leader, the being easy going and funny matters more is that is that person is authentically firm or authentically easy going, Simple measure of authenticity is consistency. Very very you know so so important right and it's really hard to figure stuff guys are not very good site. Really easy and how I am using these some of these folks and I will I'll just say it examples of seen. Officers who are you know, sticky, sweet to the of the senior leader who comes and visits there, just like, like apple pie
I turn around their tyrants to the people underneath them. It doesnt build trust for the other there, is a legal that level of vulnerability there. You know like pay you No everything. That's. kay and yeah. Is always to your point like something that's interesting about the pancakes It's like dude you're on here for long enough. I dunno how many hours we have of doing this, but there's a long time. You are the character playing the character after awhile that it's just a real coming out. So here's an interesting er I was putting when I was doing this attributes work. I was talking to a buddy of mine. He worked one of the agencies and one of his primary jobs is to help people develop, alternate personalities, undercover personality, and I told him about the work I was gonna say: russia's is really interesting, because when we help someone develop an alternate personality, we always make it consistent with who they really are, because what we found is that even the best actors of the plan
It can't pretend to be someone else for more than thirty days now. Most of us can pretend for more than a few days right. We will always were vat refer back and what I tell people and in business. Is that Anybody can pretend to be any one. You want for an interview process right, but if the idea is these attributes are who we really are right and if we'd lean on these, then are authentic self comes out there. I love telling people are, intent has a smell and so, when you're, when you've got some weird alternative agenda in the back, everyone can smell it and you don't think they can smell it's a weird thing: you can throw a little deodorant on it. You try and keep a little distance, but everyone calls have you ever done that person you're like something just that they actually say it. You say something doesn't smell right. Yes, something doesn't smell right. That's when you sense that lack of authenticity and man the boys see through that shit, oh yeah, they look there now. By the desert so yeah sorry miss that one god you're on it
So what's the guy that came to the muster brine, cape, ok, yeah, couple times the right order. So I'll have we'll get him to another one. Yeah now worth I'll tell him to let me down, let you know if he's coming those are our powerful. Did you have a good time? Oh yeah, he loved and he's been, and I he's been to two or three read on we'll get him to another one. We can make that happen. We have the power So now we getting the team ability yeah again, I think I took from the teams. I remember that being one of the attributes for four seal candidates yeah, so man- that's important, it is it's weird- that some people don't get that right literally joining the seal teams happened. You may think it might be an important thing to be a good team. it'd be good to blair in this kind of falls back on what you said about, how you can't say, I'm a good leader, one hundred per cent, the same thing here, you can't say: hey, I'm a good teammate,
team abilities by how well people work and play together. How deep they connect now effectively. They correct collaborate, much being a leader. You don't get to decide whether you're good teammate, others will instinctive. We make that assessment for you and they will do so based upon how well you perform and interact with them. number one of these integrity, the ability to act in accordance with relevant moral values and social and cultural norms. You pretty good good on you throw good tested people on this one, This is the one about the person that cheated on a test that one yeah yeah tell us about that little dilemma I don't. I will misquote the dilemma, but I would I will say: is we have to remember? Integrity is subjective and in other words, in accordance with the group, doing the right thing for a cub scout troop is going to look different than doing the right thing for an isis troop
and I would submit that makes people uncomfortable. I say it, so I will say it right if you have a cover scout. Who said five dollars from his civil, a scout, and you have an ice, a person who runs into a building with a suicide best whose being whose behaving with more integrity. In that situation, the isis person in accordance. a group, and so so the reason why this is important, because if leaders have not defined What do the right thing looks like that? The groups can sort it out and we found us in a team them in a team, sometimes those those less swell run groups, loyalty will supplant integrity and that's not right, either and so and so early We need to be diligent about defining. What do the right thing looks like for group, foreigners organization behaving those ways right cause, if not to behave it you're, you're, you're, sunk as well, and in that that that will define the integrity for the group The example that you put in here is like a kid, is cheap,
on a test, basically joining in a test and in the new ask like hey: are you the person? That's gonna tell on them right we're not telling her? I think, as you've studied your your house on this thing, and you see this kid cheating, then on a cell phone yeah, and so then, eventually you give the context of like hey. So so the kid cheated you studied hard he's going to get an a your. You know he's going to pass, but you had to work for it and teacher ass, you like hey, I think that kid was cheating. Was he and you put, you asked the question, but then, when you put context around it, it's like oh, his mama with cancer? He's got up this the one test he's got a pass, he's already been offered a job. As long as he passes this test, you can be able to get his mom on health insurance, and he has time to study cause he's been taken care of us. Like always of a sudden, I was an asshole, so. I always try to break down the side. Do it they say what you do like. If I tell you what to do some women do it, you know,
Integrity next one conscientiousness the ability and inner drive to work hard to be diligent and be reliable. You give up story about here about little guy? You again get the book because it got cool stories, lots of stories, a story, a dense books, consciousness matters in the context of a team, because it fosters trust this isn't an esoteric cards. No trickery of brain chemistry, Common sense- and you understand it intuitively thinking. People in your life, personal professional, whom you trust odds, are most of them are defined the both reliable and hard working in one way or another is fairly straightforward. The amounts very straightforward like in Interesting thing is: if you're one of those people do you get more work, Oh yeah always earlier totally words. They were they were they six other the what's the same. No, no, no good
He goes unpunished because you're going to get more good deeds if you're a reliable diet, guy you're going to get more shit to do, but these team ability ones are fairly straightforward. I mean they really are they're they're, not rocket science, and the reason is because we all know what makes great teammate I was about to say, yeah. We all have to interact with people that are cool and people that soc. Yes, that's right, humility, the ability to be self aware and transparent about once strengths and weaknesses. Humility is often stigmatized, especially I performance arenas. It can be seen as a weakness or lack of confidence, a modest or low view of ones importance, as one dictionary puts it as an attribute. Humility means being transparent about your witnesses, that's not the same as false modesty or the occasional, humble bragged, but rather an honest assessment of one's abilities. also means being vulnerable. Admitting weakness by definition requires vulnerability, but its critical in the context of team ability, one of the strength,
of any high performing team lies in understanding its weakness being open about your own weaknesses, allows others to understand where they can boom. Working with people that are arrogant, gets old arrogance kills themes, it really does and arrogance. Much like narcissism is like a vampire starring in them, or you can't see it in yourself, and so so I always tell people be beware of it. In yourself, cause we were were victim of it sometimes, and then, if you are a leader- and you see it in your, so actually arrogance was always a trigger for me. I mean I just hated see I every time I saw just trigger- and I was I was actually with body mine. His name is Josh waits. Can you know johnny rates in europe the georgian? I would have lunch in new york at twenty times when it when you still living there. Down, and we were talking about one one time we're talking about triggers things that trigger us- and I said I said oh arrogance for me and is a guy- that's interesting, sick. When I see arrogance, I immediately think
insecurity and as soon as he said that it clicked for me as like. That's exactly it, and I recognise that I have to approach arrogance with empathy, the others something about that person, that's a causing them to want to express the weather expressing and change my whole view of of arrogance. is so accurate. I am I just The combination of the client this morning- and they were talking about that- and I was While this you know this is egotistical. I think it's insecurity ever get well you're right, it's insecurity, which then flares up as as ego justly the dichotomy that I talk about here, you say: there's a sweet spot on the humility scale and it's quite wide, but there is danger at either extreme in either too much little. A lack of humility often resembles arrogance, while that's almost always. A by product of fear and insecurity. Arrogance on any team is detrimental, breeds, resentment, stifled education and, as a result, is brutal in terms of results too
Humility, though, risks teetering into meekness, which in turn can lead to inaction. Deference in this court of empowering others is necessary for optimum performance, but there are times when you need to step up and be the alpha. Be the expert in the room, the one who's been empowered by the deference of others. point. You will need to take charge and perform with conference. Great leaders understand this balance. They will defeat, until they ve squeezed every ounce potential out of their team, but they will not have it's to assume control when required more. An overabundance of humility can also mask an underlying lack of confidence. A lack of confidence realer perceived inevitably will begin, do no trust which in turn will undermine any team. You own level of humility is difficult to assess humility strange thing, sir edward wholesome, nineteenth century british politician once at the minute. You think you ve got it, you ve lost it and I love it
that's a very good cause. I've got a section in leadership, charging tactics where I talk about leadership, vacuum and When do you step into the leadership vacuum and- and I talk about giving it a little bit more time and the reason you get, and this could be like, like literally two seconds if you jump in when there's a leadership vacuum as soon as it shows up other people haven't seen it yet they're ready to resist it or they are to they know, what's gonna, so I would always like theirs the confusion here like some shouting smelling like those which your words do? Give it a second and then nothing here, the quiet that means or people are recognising and then, if you say given that seconds it. Everyone, you know did although right now, working well ready to be led in that moment, so that waiting. That's. Why, like that data, when you said four until you ve squeezed every out of potential like you up and try and they can make it happen. It's like. Alright, here's what we're doing
that leadership vacuum, let it let everyone feel the vacuum step in and make a call. That's what you gotta do I used to tell my geos I used to call the irony of leadership right. I used to tell my jos you're, if you're doing your job correctly you're working yourself out of a job you're, creating a unit that can operate without you and that takes humility and and quick story about hank we were out in Iraq and we were talking about some of the stuff and we said to ourselves. We know if we're talking about growing, all our leaders and if we don't do it, we don't do anything about it. We're not walking the talk, and so he said you know what we should do, Who should have him with the cinema rob without us and so sure enough. If we find a knob, it looks pretty pretty good, pretty easy right. Where, like I tell the truth, hey you guys are taking this one here, hank and I are going to sit back at the jock and and sure enough they go and one of the one of the troop chiefs take on one of the troops. When a team leaders takes the gfc position, another takes a trip to the position they go up. Of course it turns kinetic, like it's
I was going down and hank and I are sitting in the jock and we're looking at religion. Each other is a man of the schools, bad we're done like we are done. You know, but it's about. I mean it It's it's. It's being humble enough to then have the courage to grow your leaders and, if you dont, if you're allowing them to do with eighty to do and and make decisions and and and and and have confidence in doing it without you, you're, not you're, you're you're you're you're, not creating a team you know and and the other the collateral effect of that was that they got back and the team leader that had my job, the ground force commander he takes his head it's often throws them at me like. I never ever want to do that again because, of course, gfc you're, like you, have like five thousand things going on. So they have an appreciation for what you bring to the team as well right so but but it takes humility takes courage, enemy, the about Gaza that I learned from my one of them, I can, but do we had the best commander ever basque. I ever and you like,
he took over, but we have to commander, got fired and he took over and like the first training mission we did, he was like I was. I was a he four. Actually and he was I jocker. You run in the special. Doesn't e4 he's: ok, you're the p, smells like an. He made the guy another eve another e4 zig you gotta run in us. We're like in totally stopped but man we learn and that's what I did for mental. So why time I was on a planet. Everyone had run their surf and our evil, our new guys. It run opposite as ground force commanders in training So when you get overseas like the the younger, that's were definitely ready passage. Do men and yeah the others too. That are going on lake van use on a got go out. There the next one humor The ability to find a funny even last from tat, laugh when times are tough q, humours a powerful attribute to build a laugh, find the sliver funny amid the tragic and trying can become
when comforting, empowering encouraging. We ve all heard the joke that broke the tension that one but it's mood the edge of fear, the wise crack that distracted us from nagging pet had a vision in my mind. Imagine if they put like magic. were able to grab a compilation, you only have you two things that are like our best one minor for whatever was there real team guy- things were going sideways and people are cracking the best. It's what I miss the most I miss the most I mean the the the stuff that guys would say. Oh so so a friend of money, you probably know him, but anyway he's he was telling me. I was talking about this he's like you know, we were on our way back from an op one time and we are in the helicopter and the helicopter started going down sort of like having a malfunctioning and crashing were shooting this helicopter and one of the dudes looks at the it says: well, I guess we're not gonna have to clean our weapons tonight and everybody burst out laughing. It's like that's what I miss. You know. It's that dark, humor freedom, class and
next section is about dynamic, coordination with which we are to talk about just of the fact that You put your leadership shifts wherever and to whomever. The leader needs to be at any given moment those teams, I understand that information challenges and obstacles can come from any angle at any time and their effect meeting the teams are affected, because the teammate closest to the problem can step up and lead a while. The rest, the group differs to that temporary meter business freakin decentralized command every one of the teams gotta be reader. That's that's how we absolutely got things to go down got a second section here called the others. Everyone has all the attributes if any of it we need to have described, seem unfamiliar that you can imagine that they're wired into you trust me. They are remember, attributes aren't exotic quirks don't only upon a beat performers, their basic part
in a human being an element of, but you might have some that are like just do as you use a demo switch right of something pretty damn prettier pre love might have highly to light a fire, or these thinks there's three. more attributes. You say you want to discuss, and you say this: three are important, but there also our wires. None of them fits into the dimmer switch model, because each of them has an opposite that can't be ignored, mostly, attribute can be measured on a straight line that begins at zero. If you have low accountability or empathy or discipline, whatever the dimmer switch will be at the bottom, your left accountability can't go lower than that if accountability isn't a thing But what, if you have zero patients? What have you less than zero patient than your impatient given the recent somebody's patience and impatience the idea. The idea was that these polarities can both imply success
so in other words, the their highly successful people who were patient. There are highly successful people who are impatient and ends. but the other ones and and and the ideas on a team This is when you this, when polarities matter right, the best teams have representation on either side right, and I in my life now, for example, I am typically a patient person. My wife is typically impatient right. That's worked beautifully in our twenty three years of marriage rikers when patients has been report, I step up when impatience is required. She steps up and so so, whether it's patience or impatience, and whether it's competitiveness or non competiveness, which really was interesting because I've never been a competitive person? Even when I was capital lacrosse team, whether we won or lost didn't bothering me very very much. In fact, I used to fake being upset because it's like that probably look bad. If I'm not from that, like swearing or something, I thought that would be a detriment to me when I wanted to seal train, because I could shoot better, but a and recognizes that the competitive mines tends to think in a finite game. Right attends to place rules and boundaries and in an embargo.
because you can't win or lose unless you have rules that define when are losing the knock mind. There are no rules right and we both know that combat military operations into effect any type of teeming requires both corollary. Sometimes it requires running up the line and winning right sometimes requires thinking outside the box, and so those are two and then the final two which I thought were interesting. I was really to be quite honest, trying to figure out what it was about seals that distinguish and I was kind of landing on this vanity peace signal. Is it vanity right was almost gonna use vanity, but the problem of vanity is vanity, typically centres around appearance, you know and well. We know there are some guys who really focus on their appearance. It wasn't thing, and so that's why I kind of thought about this fear of rejection thing and what I recognize is this is it here this is because every single one of us who made it through buds, we have somewhat of an elevated sense of fear of rejection. We don't want to look bad for our teammates. We just don't, and it pushes us to do things that push
need to jump out an airplane twenty thousand feet, which I never otherwise would have done right. So that can actually power, you in certain good ways. Obviously too much is bad too little is bad, but then the opposite right the associates. I don't care what anybody thinks we seen those people write that these are economy class. They start their own movements they're. The people was like. I don't care what anybody thinks I'm doing this entity quickly. People start to swarm around themselves. So my wife and I are like this like- I have an elevated sense of your objection. She doesn't care what people think and we we we blend together, beautifully right, so so polarities should be looked at as hey if he can have each represented hi on either. One is not a bad thing: have each represented and you'll have a really balanced team. Yeah and is paying attention to where you know in a lot a lot of what's the when someone's an alcoholic- and the first thing is like saying
alcohol, and so so. The first thing here is saying like: oh, I have a high fear rejection. I need to pay attention that's right over and you can over index on that you can over index on patients. You can over the next an impatient. So having that balance balance, I guess we'd say Now you go into a kind of getting caught The end here of the book you got to in your power and any what you say is you gotta you ve gotta online thing at the act. Beauty dot com and you got an assessment- will actually haven't taken it yet but it is through a little bit through this tool and then how it works, gotta fill this thing out so the tool the tool is for the the first three categories: grit, metal, katie, drive and the reason why it's the first three, because those can be self assessed. We we have just finished a leadership and team ability, attributes tool, and that is going to be a three. That is a three sixty, because again you can't. You can't just assess yourself on how humble
all right. How selfless you are so that's in the most humblest. If someone was the one on the website now, sir, is free for those three and you can get a score and, and the score really should be looked at as a as a starting point. Okay, because whatever that score is then the ideas to interrogate your own performance and say: ok, if I'm coming up low and adaptability, let me think about some environments, where my adaptability tested the the environment changing around me. How did I do right? Okay, it was difficult, challenging. Ok, that make hence to me, and so the assessment tools can allow you some some sense. On where you might stand and where you're dimmer switches might lie, and that really takes some felt self reflection to to really get that dialogue and and then you ve got this acronym to attempt to start Make adjustments these thing. You got this acronyms start which is slow down. Think act. I results and try environments. These that's them. concerning. That's the methodology to actual
start to evolve and improve your attributes because, while the progress that the part that comes before the acronym, place yourself in the environment where the attributes being tested and then you're going to feel your stress and challenge come on, so as you feel that stress and challenge, then you in there you slow down, you think either you you re, assess your performance. You can use that ackerman, canada. Ok, think again, this is what we just talk about. You know, engage your conscious mind craig. Frontal lobe, to start examining your performance in the moment and you'll start to understand and and and development lots of good tools and I'm just gonna fast food, just kind of close up a book you say this and again, this is in the closing of the book or I'll leave that for the people to get the book, but for me to close it out says we are a species that in only ten thousand years, evolve. Cave dwellers to space explores human,
have the unique and brilliant gift of being able to imagine something and bring it into existence. We are only but to do this because of our grit or mental acuity, our drive and leadership and teamwork. Understanding your attributes is one of the keys to unlocking your potential self. That's, Given that my wrapped the book, it's not, it's not wrap up the book by Europe. even there you gotta go back. That's like going back twenty five hundred years to sangsue In saying that we have to know ourselves and what you're saying there's like we have to know ourselves and in this case no ourselves through our attributes amen. so that's what's your work in another, but corona yeah sudden,
one, is called masters of uncertainty, which is really what I always defined seals as an individual and teams that could drop into complex environments and figure it out and and I'm going to lay it out about six steps step. One is understand your attributes step two involves your identities, the identities we we we define ourselves step. Three is our beliefs and that's kind of understanding yourself, because we while all of us who do this habitually know those three things about us and then the the other three steps are, in fact the tools actually a lot of stuff that he women. I have worked on the tools that allow someone to actually engage their own physiology to start stepping through that and again it's about it's about a process right. We can't predict uncertainty by definition, cannot be predicted and that's not what we do right they say. Will you see as your your expert? Sarah? No, no we're experts at the process right. We understand when, when things go into chaos we slow down, we start working through the process and start figure it out, and it's not always pretty right. Sometimes it's decidedly ugly,