« Jocko Podcast

389: Fix Your World. "Super Power in Peril." With Dave McCormick

2023-06-07 | 🔗

After his graduation from West Point, McCormick went to United States Army Airborne School and to Ranger School; he was named the Honor Graduate of Ranger School. He joined the 82nd Airborne Division at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, in 1987.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is just about gas number. Three. Eighty, nine! Without control and me jocker willing. Good evening, echo lydia. an american led coalition, orchestrated by president george H, w bush had given Saddam Hussein an ultimatum leave, wait by january, fifteenth ninety ninety one, he didn't and, on january sixteenth, sixteenth, the world witnessed What the grating greatest fighting force ever created could do. the invasion went in two phases: first and air war, where the combined might of american and allied militaries rain thousands of tonnes of ordnance on the iraqi army weeks later. The coalition smashed through our racks, barricades and military. In a two pronged, ground attack to the right america. lead forces surged. I rack into iraq near the quaint border. Meanwhile
another contingent launched a left hook across the iraqi desert. My unit joined that assault, At the last minute we had been attached to it french tank division charged with protecting the left flank. We cross the border into I wrap early on the morning of february, twenty fifth R humvee cutting through the desert. close air support in the distance when the sun came up carnage, met my eyes. I remember bert vividly. The skeletons of enemy tanks, trucks and artillery that had been hit by precision guided missiles, the in campaign, so precise and watched on tvs around the world was precedented in human history, pushing farther in we can. Some resistance from retreating iraqi republican guard forces, but the majority their uniforms and blended into the populace or surrendered by the thousands.
my unit was assigned the missions clearing minefields, industry I iraqi munitions and military equipment approach from twenty seventh engineer battalion also from fort bragg, was attached my company, so After crossing into Iraq, it was assigned the mission of clearing munitions from airfields after coalition bombing had rendered them inoperable. Sadly, when Wearing cluster munitions, The bombs went off killing seven, including platoon leader, first lieutenant terry plank. Who might gonna know? Well, there was a tragic and very personal reminder of the costs of war, and that right there an excerpt from a book
called super power in peril. Written by David H, Mccormick David Mccormick is europe. West point grew do it he's a ranger school graduate, as you can tell from them extra right there. He fought in the first gulf war, he's been, the ceo of companies include, bridgewater associates. He served in the second bush administration, as the under secretary of the treasury for international affairs and also as under secretary of commerce for industry and security. He's got a wide range of experiences and it's a pleasure to have him with us tonight to hear about his experiences and lessons earned in life David. We join in eight or add me jack. I perceive yeah the eye
You echo discern how echoes getting facts is that how we're going to accept that the odd yeah starting off with the with the gulf war? Definitely will. We'll get into some of that, and what that build up was like that was when I had just joined the navy. I was I the navy, nineteen. Ninety, so I missed the mischief, go for we'll get into that bottom beforehand. into the gulf war. Let's talk about, you know how you grew up and what happened in kind of start at the beginning, and you know that Work is filled with all kinds of cool. Little anecdote and stories we stir often the book you say this I was born in Washington. Pennsylvania shoot a few short miles from that evenings rallies when you run and for political, in westmoreland county and was raised in a small industrial town named blooms. Burke, Fifty miles south of scream and Nobody knows where scranton is now because the office,
sure, and Joe Biden said that here you heap Therefore, like a year, but there he keeps talking about growing up and scrambled loses ruth s original routes. I guess we're delaware for it was a sort of place where, on the monday, after thanks schools would shut down and we would head out of the hills for the first day of deer hunting season. While we live in town, my family owned, a small farm, and I grew up working in the summer's trimming, christmas trees and baling hey on the weekend. Boss tables at the local magic that right, maggie, Magee maggie, hotel on main street I did well enough in school, but I wasn't a great student. I found a home competing on football fields and wrestling match across northeastern pennsylvania. so that's a little bit about about where you're from tell us about your. Your parents was gone, all of your parents and my mom and dad or but both teachers. They grew up in
western pennsylvania, so my dad grew up in a little town called marion center and his his dad owned a pharmacy, a little drugstore, and he was my dad my dad's father. My grandfather was account a democratic county commissioner in Indiana county and my mom was born in the famous puncture tawny were, sit on your europhile like the seven generation a pencil needs in western pennsylvania and, as I say in the book, you're one of the great traditions my dad has, as you don't next week, is every memorial day. he drives out the western sensibly and he'll go put flowers promised his mom when she was passing on All the graves of of those of the relatives, and so we got em, we agree, we got graves across west That's right! So it's a it's a data. the fair and it he got even in higher education. My mom became a teacher my down in a higher ed, and he got a doctorate at university, pittsburgh and It was his career. Was there any military backup Did your family none uncle uncle Charlie
I don't remember appeal only served in world war one and we with uncovered some boxes recently where we found his draft corridor. Is his military ideas you for your. What do you know he's with anything? Now I didn't your uncle charlie logo jolly, but nobody in nobody, which was why west point for me with such a you know, out of character, and what happened with that is. I got recruited to play football at west point into Russell and I had no interest in going and I want to go to penn state play football which it which of course I wasn't good left it to do that or Lee hide a rustle and in Europe but not for that- I would have made made him again for that unless your by eta, but my dad said, listen apply to west point, you know you don't have to go, but just apply to see what and was your dad just looking at this like a financial perspective, are huge. So was forty thousand dollars of savings more or less and arms, was financial, but he also insist that he thought the honor of going to one of the academies, and so what happened
what, when you were grown up. So you are in the sports, you say your grades were: ok, were you not that into school? I was okay and cool, but no it wasn't the driving force so my dad was this academic guy, and he was the president of this little college in bloomsbury. and my dad knew nothing about sports, although he was any or you would attend every every game and so how would were started wrestling? I started wrestling young, maybe sixth, grade and then football a little bit later. Football came in more in the highschool area. You can kind of catch up on football. Now right it's a little harder to catch up on wrestling with a football. the football thing that that the amazed him oh Papa was. I was a very good. I was gonna warm the bench for the first couple years and the coach got fired at my high school between my sophomore junior year and my sophomore year, we sit on the bench and then when they were winning bigger, losing big, they say:
on it and I'd paper defects. This is your software. You may suffer year, so the new coach comes in and he looks at all the films. any sees this guy skyline keeps coming in in the fourth quarter and you know, as big makes bixby tackle, so he It was me over the summer and says: listen. I think you can be the starting linebacker for the football team, but you're going to have to work your butt off switch. worked, my butt off. This is like one of the most seminal moments. Really in my life I work my butt off or would you say you work your butt off like you are in the way room your turn away, ways brands. I mean every day what has gone on for rocky mountain rocky by diversion, I'm going for it and we have the camp so two weeks of camp at the end of the summer at the end of the summer, he makes me co. Captain of the team, along with another guy as a junior as a junior, so this this inconceivable to me is it seems
small. Looking back at the time for me was huge and I started to see myself differently after and he or something in me that I too, I truly didn't see it myself and He was ruthless mapping. forward because he knew he was taking no quarter. I mean he had big expectations, We turn out to have a great team and that that was sort of a changing, a really transition point, my wife this is coach. Lynn, we're talking about goats time, a book and again you get the book. I read some small excerpts from the book. The books got all kinds of tales in there, but you had You had one experience with coach land where he can achieve drew out that definite seem to have left the mark, a man he took it, took me to the wood
and so what happened? I started to you know in the local paper. I started to get recognized and you know they were talking about blast game and you know I started being pressed, so we have a game. I remember it like it was yesterday. It was norse google in the in the in the in the anthracite region of pennsylvania, and it was a rainy night and we just were getting our clocks cleaned in in the first half and he came into the locker room and he was I mean he was a tough guy, tough love, I would say, and he went around the theme and he wanted to each person and he said you've done a terrible job. This is awful. You know, you're you're, getting run over it meant making your blocks and then he looks at me and he says and dave you're doing such a great job, those all those nice things are said in the paper about you. They really I mean you are really a superstar and he just was and then he'd go back and be, and so you know just singly me. I think you can read the headlines, dave, you're, doin, so well, and so on. was awful and I entered
second half we turn things around and we did better pattee. He he he it on me in pennsylvania is, is a mecca for football rest it really is, and you are in both yeah. It really is my my wife is from texas and and she's like. What's this wrestling thing I said wrestling I mean you go to the gym. On a friday night I mean it's packed everybody's cup. This is the biggest sport and it's a you know. You know, you know this from your own expert. there's no way hide your out there in the middle, the lights on you and that crowds going crazy and now penn state is the greatest wrestling college in the country far number one to last ten years, but it is in they make quarterback action. You know and wrestlers and pennsylvania young one of my friends is lives. the albanian. He was told me about the nfl players from pennsylvania headlong, just like crazy number of nfl,
players online, where these little towns how they are a kid. What will grow up all the news play sports and find them so you're wrestling since six great. Can you say you must have been a good wrestler? How you doing? Are you making it a state or you winning stay? Where you are. I finished forth in the states my senior year ten pennsylvania's jake s name was good, and then I went to west point. wait now? You said, though you wanted to play for their like slow man. I didn't. I didn't, have the speed and intensity provision one football, a wrestling. but is that you want to play football why'd you wanna play for plants at a rustling. I think I think of football by law. I, like the contact, I liked being a linebacker. I would have prevented the defense. It may be a defensive back in college, but I I liked- and we were good and you know in retrospect, wrestling was probably the better sport because it didn't it didn't, come out of what
major concussion or anything, but but as it turned out, I rest I I could make the team at west point as a freshman, so I I wrestle for years, varsity at west point and was the captain of the team there, we're going back to cope with application to west point yeah, your your dad says just apply. He's thinking, I'm going to save some honey, yeah, he's thinking is the honourable place to be anyone. been west point up in west born it's just an outstanding. You get you get fired up just being there. and seeing the cadets walking around and it's a beautiful campus. So your dad must have visited at some point, be like dear
I forget we visited when I was a kid I remember visiting once we, my mom had a college classmate that lived nearby, and so we visited early- and I I didn't have a great experience and then in a weird story, when I went up for the college recruiting visit for football, we we stopped at a diner in newburgh new york on the way it was like we'd get up at four in the morning and drove up my my friend and I and I guess something something was bad about. What was that I ate for breakfast So, throughout the course of the day getting the the pitch, I would go into the bathroom and throw up. So I had terrible memories of my first visit to west point and and then what happened I got accepted and the whole town kind of just you know embraced it.
And it was in the newspaper and nobody had gone to an academy for like twenty years- and you know in that part of pennsylvania, military. The military is widely admired, even though my family hadn't served, and so all of a sudden it kind of took on a life of it's own and didn't seem like a choice. I just was goin. I turned out to be great, I'm glad I did it, but it wasn't something. I'd always thought about you get in the west point. I think this is going to the book here It says, on a balmy day, in early July nineteen, eighty three, my parents, dropping off at west points, meaty stadium, centre, right, mikey, Mikey stadium, are short, brief to parents and their soon to be cadets ended abruptly with parents, access to the right and new cadets exit to the left. My military career had begun by the and the day after hours of vaccinations, uniform fittings above caught and prayed practice, the west point class
nineteen, eighty seven marched across the red field with the review. Stands chock full of terry I'd parents looking down on their transformed and in some cases, terry I'd new cadets the rising seniors are first classmen. First, these ran the show. They bombarded us with information. Barked orders, as they heard us around west points, historic grounds, there's no gentle orientation day at west point or the six. D day. Beast baron That follows intentionally shock the system with a time tested process that takes this cohort of wide eyed teenagers and begins to break them down to be remoulded. leaders and officers it was all per. Equally orchestrated a test for the older, That's who are responsible as well as the new pleads in their charge. I realize, has only years later, when it was our turn to welcome the new class just how much work went into preparation for this century old tradition, So there's your welcome aboard
How ready for you were you for that mentally? I don't think was very ready. I wasn't ready for it. You know I ended up. My ended up majestic in adopting, but I wasn't ready for because there's no and you ve had your own. Version of this there's no debating there's, no reasoning, there's just learning to do and I am responding in surviving and- and so it was a shock to It- was a shock to my system. For short, I think that their catches catches, people when they entered military you go through. That indoctrination period is just a complete and utter loss of freedom. The leg is completely gone anything that you, you kids, nick away to the bathroom for an extra minute and thirty and to have some alone time. It's not happening every moment is accounted for europe we doing what you're told the do an organization It is a serious shocked. The system works
what how long did it take? How long did it take for you to say all I guess I'm gonna have to deal with this took a while to just embrace it. You know- and you know the the the the the saying which, if people been saying for decades, you gotta love the suck, I just embrace that it's going to suck and you just gotta hold your breath and get through it and and wrestling helped in that regard, because you know it, it was an outlet where I'd have two workouts a day. I'd start in the morning and do all the cadet stuff her practised at the end of the day, and- and I found to my surprise that you know I didn't know what to expect, but that I could compete and there was an opportunity- and that became a big focal point for me during my during the I hope, four years of particular that first year did you did you know you weren't going to play football when you went to the app okay I'd made the decision that you only do one sport I'd made the decision. That wrestling was going to be what I what I tried And so what are you going to college for
like what do we? What are you learning? What's your degree going to be? This is the the the remarkable thing is. I I decide I'm going to be a mechanical engineer which turn it'd be a terrible decision? I'm I'm the I'm, not a good engineer, but I got halfway through it. I'm like I'm, going to muscle my way through this, so it it was miserable. You know I wasn't. I wasn't great at math or economics or math or design or any of the the mechanical engineering. but I got through it and along the way I figured out that I didn't want to do that, which has always given you for you, which are not going to do, and I am and after four years the frigid always you're, not gonna, do exactly, but it it is you have to think in a particular right away, it's very systematic and at the end of my senior year I I in wrestling I break her money I have a tour. All my ligaments. I have to get me reconstruction at the time. They have these gore tex implants so that they implant a gore tex ligament.
in my knee. My senior year after us things you weren't ligament acl, they put it, we're tax or tax asia. I doubt heard of this was this: was that if he member the time there was a great papa pair, a gas to know what the jet they do the same for him. So this an experimental thing. The army was using it and I still have it. I had never had a replace so we worked worked. I went to range of school and jump school. I did eighty jumped on how companies people want to do that anymore now if they found much better This and other use cadaver the usual cadavers outlay. Earlier there used to use pig now they use the colorado better. So I I It will go right to the army, some supposed to go to ranger school and the basic course. I can't do all that. So west point keeps me for six more months and I can who's the g I bill to go to grad school. So
apply to colombia, and I do two courses at columbia and one of the courses is taught by this guy named roger hills: men whose, like this epoch, guy fight fatah use west point graduate fatah world war two, in the o s ass he's got this incredible story about rescuing his father from appeal to begin camp in burma, and he is the the faster he goes on, and he works in the Kennedy administration and the NC department and I'm listening to this guy in front of the class. I'm saying that's what I want to do like that life, sound so much more interesting than being an ear and so that was in my head and that that help shape among the things that came after when, when europe at west point were
What do you think formulated in your brain? What lessons did you did you really grab onto from a leadership perspective eagerly they drill into you these concepts of duty on a country and they people throw those off quickly, but I think that was it. I think this notion that there's his whole institution I mean that the military. west point being part of it, that the entire purpose is to have people defend america that that the whole thing is selfless about selflessness. The idea that leadership, which is what you think about when you read the books She isn't about you, it spouse service to others. Those the concepts and it gets rolled into your head both by what people, but you were tight, but also by the example at others that you'd see in other. So I think it was like fundamental. I I am so grateful. I had a chance to do it. I don't think I had that concept,
service to others embedded in me, the way it came through after four years. There is, where'd. You get this new injury and, as you realize you don't want to be an engineer, do you decide hey? I want to be an infirmary officer. No, I I plied. I was an engineer officer So I was an engineer officer in the eighty second, so you know, there's which, which I found out when I got there is the same as improvement. You just have to carry more shit. You have to carry a valid, let's see, for your bag bags bigger the engine. What's crazy about the engineers is at you know during the recent wars, those guys guys we're out clear, mind, clearing roadside bombs and so on. Another thing you think you're gonna be out their building bridges. Now you're, not out the wealth. There build bridges to buy a huge percentage of the job that the engineers have done like you in the battle remedy the engineers yeah, they went out and built the combat outposts in downtown remedy under fire, but then, on top of it,
in order to get to those combat outposts, they had clear all those roads. They, the engineers were just words awesome did an awesome job. So so take your six months to heal up. Yet in here you you go, take them classes at columbia. You may begin a glimpse of some the things you might like like to do in the future, to germany I do in special forces, because this guy was o s ass, which a sort of I did. He I thought hard about. Staying in, you know I'd. I went to the eighty second, my went up basic, went to ranger schoolhouse, ranger school? just go away before you raise, but how was off your course offices course his great. he's at that time. It was for belvoir. So is right, extra dc. So imagine your like! You know you're stuck in. West point for forty years in the middle of nowhere. so I show up there, I'm six months behind on my my classmates, but I've got a minute was in know an incredible six months of not not focused so much on on school day what we had james web
upon cast and your he went from You know what the basic school marine corps basic school. look at marine corps basic school The officer infantry course for marine corps infantry officers had I think it was twelve days of leave got on a plane the plain talking to vietnam: gotten a helicopter gotten a jeep gotta patrol out there in the middle, the jungle. Somebody pointed a ridge and said like pay. Your pull up on that ridge go take over, he walked up there and do. A k appeared relieve the officer. No, like all we will have an officer, you just saw and spin run in it staff sergeant, overhears, monotonous, so you're in now, sir than that night, they got into a huge troops in contact he was called for fire knows, I said to him: did you feel you're prepared. He said I was fully prepared, so this was in, I think, nineteen sixty eight nineteen, sixty nine but the level of training that,
you know, can you imagine at the height of the vietnam war, I? How well that the less we're learned were coming back and the feedback loop officers that we're just in vietnam were now teaching you, but now you're gone through in nineteen what what years nineteen, eighty eighteen eighty eight year, so nineteen, eighty eight, we we I mean outdoors been a lot of combat gone on is also be it everything it You know, there's the two big training centres at the time that which I think are published all around in your time as in national training sent border wendy Stiller, which tank warfare? But then there was the joint administration, which was all there surges, he stuff, which was in arkansas at four chappie, and that we would do medium ten day, forty day, things and you were fighting against the soviet armed sort of insurgency and and that was everything was through the eyes of soviet weapons and soviet tactics, so not really, in some ways very prepared in some ways not not very prepared
What about from a leadership perspective? I think, and I think ranger school was mit- was and another really important. You know moment for me in terms of developing as a leader, because you get the school and the west point experience and I had done a number of things, in preparation for ranger range of school. You, nazi strips off the rank, as you know, when you're just backed ok, who's, gonna be a leader and everybody. has to be a leader? It does at the moment in time in you learn to be a good. Followers was a good leader to help here, rynch school classmates and you see the worst of people when they haven't eaten in there. steal. Your crackers deals your food and you see the best people You got your she's porn, you're, her exactly so. For me, it was. It was a great experience. I died. I did well. I emerged in that as someone who is, who is a good thing, No other confidence did you have any challenges in ranger school. There was anything I was particularly hard for you not really what about were you used to cotton away from rising it? You cannot awaiting coalescing the last one,
wait for wrestling, I lost a lot of weight range school. I think I went bias twenty or thirty pounds in ranger school. I do remember a moment You know you. You realize that that not that this is anything like you know some of the dangers others have faced, but you you you you, you really realize you have to overcome fear and I remember being in a like a helicopter at night during a night jump and it was over a bunch of trees. yeah, it was distant, it didn't feel like was gonna go well. I remember thinking man. I really want to do this, but then I thought that the horror, and the shame of of not doing it was far worse than getting killed or maimed hoping he felt tat. He relax it's ok, I'm gonna go on as one by bodies who one of the toughest guys ever my friend tony affrati, who is a seal with me, and then he was one of the petition chiefs when I was in and when I was a task unit commander and he's absolutely petrified of heights like absolutely petrified
and he was on a training exercise in hall. I think I wanna see hong kong and they had to do a repel like us like a fifty story or thirty story. Repel out of a building face first jump off the edge, and he said he was so absolutely terrified at ease. and then he said, but I would rather have died in the show you not do so. That happens, but but from a leadership, respect for going to arrange a school and its great school, because you you, it put in all the different positions on times you, the patrol leader, sometimes your machine gunnar What did you? What is what characteristics you think made a good leader going through ranger school? I think, and you know Claire being able to maintain clare
the clarity on mission, despite the haze despite the hunger does, he know, did like the foot, the focus on mission, the fight these the bachelor exhausted just that recognition that you're you have to be on point and the idea that you know if you're, not the leader that you have to know everything is going on because you might be the leader next and so that that rigour associated within and they getting your in getting your buddies through that that was the big piece, which is nobody succeeds in life or in ranger school alone- and I you know you do the rating system at the end of each each thing where everybody can rate who who does poorly and you and do that in a way whereby he makes it or you can do that wherever the bet there, the gaza, a real asshole, gets thrown out near and and and you see, the assholes get thrown out and the people that that that per teammates get through it. That's a cool system that they have comparing better peer, pirie, vows and greater someone out they. They didn't when I
through she'll. Turning we didn't have that we got of a couple guys that war just back add, but we didn't do it through any official system. It was, I think you know the class leader. We all talk the cross leader in the class leader eventually talk to the instructors and they got rid of some guys, but that's a that's a really good system. They have in place where hey look, if if we, if we all Together we can stay here. We can give each other the proper evils at the proper time. But if we do If someone's, not good right, we can get rid of what's it was the attrition rate. Do the attrition nutritional was, I think, the enough I think very original class. It was like twenty five percent graduated and then through we cycle and everything else should get another twenty cents. I think was like forty five. Fifty percent eventually got through, but it was it was it was it was. It was high. in its three phases. He at the time I think it
did you like. Seventy two days was four phases. It was the original phase which is banning into the mountain phase in the long ago. Then you do the desert phase in utah Doug way proven ground than we did their final phase in florida and forest, when you finish jack. So so you get done with ranger school now and then your first job is at the eighty second platoon layer, the second platoon. So are you in charge of an engineering platoon yup at the eighty second yep? and- and there is no war going on at this time this is nineteen, what nineteen, eighty seven eighty eight eighty eight! So am I to mediate the it's just. caring for the war world. Our three with the soviets. Basically, that's what you're doing and you dont three rotations, where you have one
station where you're on readiness, where are you not doin much you're, gonna erratic, has yet to be ready to go up and be on the new twenty four hours to anywhere in the world yeah, so that that's one of the three phases. The second phase is your preparation phase, where you're here core training. You know you're out your outed doug. What you're out in joint rennie's training centre, you're out your hard core you're in the field come back clean up to? How long is that? How long's outface? That's it it's a third time, so it off your, I think, Somebody's like three months every six weeks. I think, every six weeks you wrote it through phases, so ex hard core six weeks to training and you're, not you're, never home you're around the field, and then there's six weeks are basically clean up regulations. You know vacation whatever you like, that. That's that's this the sequence and so your eyes, a single guy near, were run and hard.
All over the place and I loved it. I mean I love being a pungent. I felt prepared just to your point about Jim Webb. I felt prepared to be a platoon leader. I felt prepared to to learn, and it was, it was great, yeah, the peace time. Military can be an interesting thing It's really easy for the peacetime melter get focused on things that are about war, fighting right and you can start focusing on other things, whether its literally shining your boots, which sometimes people get really into shining boots and starch and uniforms or whether it's just I mean I guess the today's date agents list all kinds of things at the military, might be focused on that have very little to do with war. Fighting completely, I mean that's one of the things I took on the book, which we can I buy later, but it's the fact that the military today Yet the army is an example rolled out under present abiden, its climate change
did she before it's worth fighting strategy. This is, this is unworthy them at sea area. Right there I should be laughing, is actually very disturbing and it's easy to get distracted, but I felt like eighty second: was the serious and in the end that in that sense of mission, and while I was there, we had panama, which on which I my unit, didn't you know only one brigade deployed the first brigade, but I was they put together, a second platoon to go to panama that I was going to go support precipitated and I the poteau, the tank manner pick me to be petunia. So I was like ready. We reloaded were on the airplanes ready to go and they didn't they didn't sell yourself. So we thought we were going to have a chance to go to panama and then eventually, Iraq happened with the gulf war. Yeah, the the airborne divisions are freaking outstanding. I work with. both of them. I worked at a somewhat with the eighty second, I worked a lot with one hundred and first and they're, just freaking outstanding, like every their their total professionals, all the time and everything that they do so I Imagine that even
even when the rest of the military getting distracted, that the airborne units are still stay. focused and making things happen, as they should be so you're you're. In his power to commander and then the first gulf war, starts to spin up where you now accompany commander? At this point, I was in exile I have have become an excel. We go do were deployed like a fourth deployment of something to the job read his training centre and then literally in the middle of the night, we get it. Your call go to this grid and There is one of these big runways where nor can saw and there they were bringing the sea when forty ones and see five to load up all the equipment go by to brag and and this was set on his eight- had crossed it nick weight. And then I think we had twenty four forty eight hours of cleaning the equipment and getting ready loading uploading ammo. And then we flew out again.
and I went to Ramstein air force base in germany to refuel and then ended up in landed in DE mom in saudi Arabia and so the eighty second was the first you there has actually executed the recall. The ages abso as freakin absolutely lay the whole thing and remember you mean there was no email there was no tax staying. There was no cell phones so yeah and tell your mom and dad was what you got on your family. So you just pack up Leave it and all of a sudden, you start writing letters and you're in a letter, yo yo, twelve months, a letters, that's how you communicate with family and you're getting relook. We we lucked out back- or at least I do and I think most people do. They look back at the first gulf war kind of shrug your shoulders, always seventy two hours blah blah blah, but I specifically remember that
I was watching cnn and they're saying: there's gonna be africa there there say: there's gotta be forty thousand realities in the first forty eight hours and unfair. Can I was now I'm in the navy. I'm way inter class up and see all training, and I'm thinking? Oh yeah, this is like organs Fight is good. They were long nearer. This can be, war. You know like world, or two for us. Did you guys, as you guys were preparing? What was your mindset carefully thought tat. It was some gonna be mere very hard core, combat situation where there's be a lot of casualties. We all were reading the newspapers and seeing these estimates- and you know doing the stuff like before the it was all build up to this invasion day for a member there was the airway and so we thought the invasion day was when you were gonna, be like in world war to kind of
and warfare that may we open talking about so mean people writing letters like the letter to give to your folks around make it that kind of thing. Especially if they have also the chemical, why the rats we saw the scuds being shot. We, I remember, seeing the scud shot over our heads into Israel and us donning either the chemical equipment or the number of occasions. So we we thought we were in for a hell of a fight and I and it turned out the whole thing collapsed through. A combination of the air war was just so punishing a combination of the of the troops recognize they were being overwhelmed, that just discipline and command and control being lost, and then the you know the inability to keep the people in the in the uniforms to the passage he wrote they just blended in they just put on civilian clothes. Next thing, you know, you see him driving by and a pickup truck. You know that that. you know I was sure about this-
the other their reading about this here today- that we have this. forget, who said one of the generals said: something along the lines of after that. First gulf war like oh, if we ve gotten over our vietnam. whenever hang over every the terminology that their use by vietnam was as other thing and now we know how to do it right that that you could say that that victory, that expedient victory, didn't bode well for us in terms of the way we looked at war to follow on wars, yeah wrong lessons, maybe what the powell doctrine you know if you remembered that that the the thing that was so unique about that was this incredible build up six month build up. I mean that was four hundred and fifty thousand
or something like that in totality all the the allied coalition, so as they get all this time to build up which, which was a precondition to going in this, was what what I think powered president bush and so forth were promoting, but then the second thing was that the decision to pull out, which now in retrospect looks like it was totally obvious unclear, but at the time it was an obvious in clear and I think what happened in the in this than the iraq war after nine eleven was that the first lesson of being able to rapidly overcome the forces did happen same same similar at the kind of thing, unbelievable speed and on board. Well firepower, but with less troops, less true cause they were like well, you know so easy last time, but this is like. Oh you know you. You got into a fight with this guy, so we'll just go and we don't. We don't really need depth. We gotta fight with another gang I beat him really easily last time? We don't need to bring all of our guys. We just would spring a few, but the second thing was to stay yeah with the goal of you know helping this transition in iraqis,
eighty and then you read all the same books I have, but the fact that the dissembling the iraqi military air when that with such a critical part of the stability and the society in the bath s party, so doing that with a lot of clarity and very surgically opposed to what eventually happened, which was really chaos and then to have the ability to bring about order was law, as a consequence of our of of that decision in the way was handled so back to though the the invasion day are you how can europe troops like hey, I mean did you give a like hey? Not all of us are going to make it pay be ready for casualties. You know, I always think back like in my life I've given those I to my guys about why kill me enemy we gonna take out, like those are intent, things to know that you're doing and
It will you have in those talks. Will you had no idea know how does a figure who, with chemical weapons you think republican guard is gonna, stay and they're gonna fight and it's gonna be house to house tank the tank whatever the case may be. That was what you guys we're thinking man. It must have been so weird Ok, so I'm out before you to the weird part of hades role in air and they can roll over. So you if your email about it absolutely in that mode, thinking we're in for a hell of a fight and being prepared for that, both mentally and with every. You know, every bit of preparation that we're doing trying to figure out the missions prepare for the missions, mind, clearing explosion, taking up bridges, whatever is going to be where we're in we're in it and we have the comply, see being attached to this french armor division at the last minute which, as you know, we're trying to figure that out. So absolutely, and then you get across the border and twenty four hours in it's kind planted the apes. Member them the movie where it s like society has soared
civilizations gone and like everything's wreckage and air war had just once it had been so devastating so you those rolled into Iraq, yet orange government, quite europe into Iraq. Yet we have strayed into Iraq from the tap line road and are you seeing, sir you seen like the highway of death, which was then you must have seen some of the remnants of the highway of death of the the vehicles made it far enough north into iraq. Your seeing that round of destruction righteous on the sides of the rose sister, literally, You know, you'd see a tank chassis with a whole right through the engine block where europe precision guided missiles. What had just taken out the tank you know it was it was. It was kind of remarkable. I dont think I knew we had that capacity hero until until I saw that the actual destruction that it had wrought as your troops are as your telling your troops, you get ready, go in your given numb, hey that speech the what what
What's the looks on the faces, the guys as your ronin think we're all scared. You know oscar, but I'm feeling a deep sense which I'm sure you have like me, I'm I'm responsible. You know I want to get these governing, accomplish a mission get these guys through this. I'm feeling that anxiety and that fear, but I'm also feeling that sense of that weight of responsibility- and I think, we're all scared, but we all you know determined that we're going to do our part what was the end state of your assignment going into Iraq? So look. We knew that we weren't going to stay there. We weren't planning to stay there. We weren't pushing a baghdad, we weren't we weren't, Stay there was end state to get in was this long enough, kuwait's now secure and then you're going to leave. Was it something along those lines with a leading part was never was never pre k, the gate, browser you guys thought where he's going it gone in it, you don't take, control of whatever you were responsible for and then in the end, what it turned out to be
there were these huge enemy depots of ammunition which, when the decision was made a pull out, they wanted to destroy all the the munitions, but these were light city blocks of munitions, and it was you know, things that they Iraqis had put together over and over decades. So the final mission was to destroy all that stuff on our way to town, and that was that was high adventure, because we, you know, we were essentially rigging city blocks, with a b, o c four and and and- and you know, sec dare explosions and some of it in glove. He ethical back in a reset it it was. It was messy, but but but eventually we accomplished wish to our. How long were you in iraq for them. You know how I can give a republic twenty dazed twenty five days, something like that and you just blowing up all these years.
Well, that was the story you tell about that. You know two things were happening. There was an enemy munitions everywhere, but then there was his cluster bombs that we had right and those were covering all the airfields so to create the airfield. So we could use them. We had to clear the cluster bombs. after one of the runaways and that's what happened with that. Petunia petunia actually been attached to me when we deployed and then when we got over into right before the right before the invasion, that it went back to it's original battalion and somehow got a different assignment, and then you know we we heard a day or two into it that they had lost all those guys on that on that one mission Terrible so the twenty days in whatever it is you get the assignment you're, leaving now we're leaving now that's what's happening. Any it must be my high fives
Where are you all right? By a year? You know the military gone homes not gone home, like you're, going back anyhow year yet another month and a half of fight cleaning up your equipment again, and they said it was an extended withdraw, but I think the whole thing was a total of august two April end of April may so. Oh that's cause you guys were the first one on the ground. You guess we're sitting there forever waiting to do this yeah. We were first in a screening force on the iraq on the kuwaiti border. wherever on that beach town coughed year and in the end, what which, if they d come across, there's another we gotta die because it was based good, a graded deterrent by saying, if you cannot be crusher becoming by with the? U s: government, the? U s military! and then we moved over into the middle of the country more above Riyadh and we we bounced around a good bit and as more forces came on the ground, so you wrap up that you you finally get back to me. What while you're in you're in.
And why, while wrapping up, are you already thinking like hey? I I get out of the army no I think I'm staying so I I my plan is to command a company. I haven't done that yet and I get I get. I've got to get the advanced course. I get a recall or a request, an invitation from, this point to go to grad school and teach. So my plan is to go to korea command accompany, go to graduate school, go to west point and that's the path I'm on and I'm in I'm in missouri at that advance, coarse and I'm in a whim. I got a good player and I'm filling out my essays to go to grad school, because west point tells me to apply to grad school and then defer it, and you can come back after korea. Some writing the essays and in the us is or about what you do with your life, and none of the essays edward, I wanna be a queer army officer.
know none of the men with that, and if I did that it would have been two years in korea, two years of grad school for five more years in the army that would have basically stabs can make a career it. I was gonna do twenty years, and- and so I I realized- really wasn't really was ready to do that. I wanted to do something, so you were writing these s face and as you're writing his essays. You realize that's it. Listing. I was taught when people ask me about how to do tat emotionally to make decisions properly. I was One of the best things you can do is right is right down because it physics it detaches you from your thoughts now you're looking at them on a piece of paper. So that's exactly what happened to you. It's exactly what happened, and so I'm sort of stuck because I go to I go to the commander of the advanced course. They say. Listen, I'm going I'm going to resign, and I hear this wasn't in nineteen. Ninety one I have a kind of a war hero. Well, I'm I'm I'm I'm at the time. I'm here a combat. Did you
the combat infantry badge and all that all those who have a combat patch. Eighty. Second, all that stuff. So so I say, I'm gonna go my father at this point. Who is in love? with west point in the army, says to me: His first words are: you gonna, lose your pension and Might you know you got fifty more years, you when you got a pension, dad's, so fifty years later to revive care, so So I've already sent these graduate school amazon mindset, though by the website and hers a mindset. You know people that people that You're looking at you know, they think are the only people have said to me, like I feel now stayed in, I could have been retired. I could add that pension there's their deftly people do twenty years and had a before you mark, they think well, only sixty more years will have that pension. Yet I was made at that. Was it be so But here I am an orbit plan so
I sent these applications to grad school and it's november of nineteen. Ninety one I've got like leave build up until february or march. I've got something like ten thousand bucks of savings because I got this guy ever got paid for it, so I buy a five thousand dollar tita, be eight around the world ticket and the rule with it you just as long as you go in the same direction. You can as many flights as you can get. So I I go through christmas but my folks and I take off and I travel around the world, so I go there to greece you covered in a book like I bought around the world airline ticket from tee w way the ticket which drained about a third of my gulf war savings. Let me take as many flights as I wanted as long as they took me in the same direction circumnavigate the globe. I try to overland. Through the middle east, including turkey, syria and Jordan spent three weeks in the holy land. It was my
time in Jerusalem, I had the opportunity visit, pray, the western wall when the great wholly sites the world from there scuba dived off the beautiful reefs of the Sinai peninsula peninsula, saw the cop the churches for the first time, a memory that would come flooding back when I met my wife and her devoutly coptic family. After three months in the Middle east, my travels continued farther east. I spent almost a month exploring the incredible rain forests of borneo before making my way north to malaysia, thailand, taiwan and events in china, where I saw a she's on the cusp of mud modernity. Eight months and about twenty flights. Later my adventure ended at schofield barracks hawaii, where my brother was stationed at sat. That's it they were away. So Europe, link up with your mother. Your brother was in the army, this boy yeah, and he map for years by me. He was west point for years by me you west point is well, he wrestled, he was first his glass at west point, which brought my dad did say to be one point one
happen, think we start folk focus or just lose writer. So yes, so he was their number. Were you in class I was on my way out of three hundred and thirty one and not your brother was number want. Never why he eats house thanks giving dinner with that kind of device with it wasn't until they use, did my brother and my dad conspiracies stops and starts my brother. My dad would talk on weekends till I was made mid thirties him and my dad would start by saying what do you think we're going to do about old dave, yeah he's directional, it's this poor guy gif. I do direct you you did end up getting into grad school you're, gonna princeton yeah. What what what your experience there going Princeton
he knows Incra. It was incredible for me cause. I had that ye that eight months travelling had kind of gotten the military out of my system in some ways, it was. It was a bridge to something totally new. You know- and I I was by myself, so I met people on way. I travelled people. It was a total adventure. and I I was site to get into an new environment and learn, and I moved in with. Platonic politically with three women who I shared a housewife, and it was like that college that I had missed I remember the three's like a twenty seven year old guy. That was like, oh my god, you know. I then I visited west point in the army, and this is so I I loved it and couple great professors and I'm wasn't very confident about my academic ability show,
and been a good student, and I was surprised I began in the prince. Think your dad was surprised. My dad was surprised. We were all surprised and I had a couple professors who really took an interest in me. And there was one guy who is it elderly guy- was a very dignified gentleman named dick omen. And he and I had a class with him and he had been- he had been in in the whiz kids with mcnamara in the in the sixties, and he had been on new york times editorial board. He was a Democrat, but he just took an interest in me and military people in particular, and I would submit an essay his class, and I would get it back and there'd be these light marks like a b c, just look at it and a good e at the end of it, and then we get done with the alphabet. He do w a w b and when you get to the back, there's a typed comments. Attached to every letter and the comments were as long as the paper
sky was so I mean he would just even super tight logic and strong intellect any, is invested the time, and so he help he started to help me become are a good writer. and he really invested it and he you know a year and a half to yours, and he said I think you should do a phd, unlike you think I can get through this You can do this, and so I applied to the peace ii programme and our eventual did a phd, and it was because this guy, I took an interest in that I had a cup either professors, and so I ended up going up hd. Why was there so? What I did a piece? he had thea in essentially nash relations. Did you have some kind of a go at this juncture. Wife animals can be a professor. You know, I thought back to that professor that I had seen at columbia and my dad- and I got to about half way through it
which is another reason. Why might my dad was concerned? I say I am never going to be a professor, I'm two, eight of this and not cut out for this. I want to do. I want to do things so I finished a phd in I went to visit my brother, who went to had got a business court harvard, and I go up and see him in other words, your army brought my only brother, so he got The army get out the army after five years and I go up there, and I'm saying I What do I do? I don't have it and he said the others is all these mckinsey guys here then they say that begins hiring people, phds ok, signing up, I'm gonna go sandwiches, and so I go interview with begins. And I get an offer. and they say we ve got a great offer for your new york city, and I said I thank you excited by want to go to new york. I wanna go to pittsburgh. I wanna go the pittsburgh ops, mackenzie and they said you're the first person realistically waiting list is desirable in ever insisted on pittsburgh that's. Why are you so far to go to pittsburgh?
I wanted life pennsylvania. I had been born. in pittsburgh. At my you know, had family roots in pittsburgh. Pittsburgh was on the cusp of this. You know real renovation, and so I wanted to be part of that and it turned out to be be great. Then this is so. This isn't like now. Ninety ninety six, the graduate you get hired mackenzie, You go in your work, life like when you get this. Ah but mackenzie where they have you. Don't we dunes typical analysed stuff? We with every don't you know, they'd, all the clients were manufacturing companies so Gm and you know, ottomans, ever tier one, automotive, steel companies, wearin steel westinghouse sees were gritty like operational fish in tee, I saying and what they want you to do, that I didn't way they re. Do you know where I did? They thought they taught base given you. So I did supply chain stuff. Reduce costs, negotiate new contracts, I mean I just by was in there to stop me. I got trained and who trained you here, there's a bunch!
That said, the site been in the military, the trainer, the trainer or that the next generation people should have been a bunch of army, guys that went there. The pittsburgh office of mckenzie was a little different than the rest because you have a sort of a greedy you know that quiet basis was, this had different feel to it and was that a number of military guys there that had been part of why I got hired in the first place and- and that became just a great way- to learn business and a great way to make a transition to a business career and that's what ends up happening. You spent three years there and then you do you join up with a company called call. Free markets remark is here, and it sounds Your timing was good nineteen. Ninety nine yeah. It was perfect that time it was awesome. Yeah we yeah. We went public that here and I you know this is the ridiculous of the moment, but there was a four point time. I think we when we went public, we had nineteen mind dollars revenue or something like that and were losing
Annie and it was valued at an ip or something like nine billion and I so I became the ceo. I sold the company six years later, two thousand five. It was a hundred and de million in revenue and profitable and we sort of five hundred million, so I just show you that the the crazy journey was. We went from seventy people. When I joined a thing to a thousand people will result. And so was that it was a crazy. So what? Where did? What was your job when he started tat fremont? I job was initially working with the thumb, the business was so the business was essentially tryin to digitize purchasing and if you looked in the purchasing world. There is all the stuff you could buy paper and things like that online, but this was direct materials, so the things that go into things you build castings forging machines, so we were helping companies take those things, make them indigenous drawings and they do a competitive,
online. Where you could source it thinks it was really kind of innovative and recent we to help the government do that too. So we help diagnoses, postal service. We help the navy and I initially ran the little nash. Does the public sector business and then I ran all the businesses in that I attach became see. What do you think you were as you are key to doing well, making things and getting selected for promotion getting selected to lead this bigger organisation and getting second a ceo would it was your key component think you know, I think some of the basic leadership things from the military, just finding good people getting alignment holding high standards. I think those things were. You know important to be able to later important to be a successful ceo. I think the thing that did up being the straight I had throb business was. I was always a client facing or customer facing executive,
So I would always go help sell the deals I would be at the front. End of I was always that at Bridgewater I have is that it free markets, and that was the thing that helped that we needed at the time grow, so it is difficult to see, owes there's those that are the product development. Are. Those are the commercial. I was always more of a commercial client facing seo and that's what, as for free markets needed at the time, and you said they had sixteen million dollars and revenue maybe night, in the twenties. Let's call it twenty eight and they and you went public with the evaluation of the I believe he added billions I think that I say yeah it was it was you see some of that same some of those same things that have happened, but that was at the height of the tech bubble and then the bubble burst and an ill fortune. We had a business, they could survive it in and continue to grow, but it was. There was tough, and I tell the story in this book, which is which is totally. This was like creative destruction, witness first hand, because there's issue,
consolidation and use software firms are gobbling ups offer from the sober at about the time I would see your bridge were. Maybe two thousand of three for something like that, maybe or two thousand two. I do a kleiner perkins, which is the big venture capital compared to a ceo conference and that partner at Kleiner perkins says he wanted to meet these guys. They'd get this new company called it's called google's where they. Sergey and Larry, and I'm like that'll, never work out an after work. Meanwhile, meanwhile, you know where, where Our industry gets holidays and they become Google's. where are you on September, eleventh two thousand one? I mean that and we have a tower in pittsburgh. That's has our name atop of the building of free markets and were in a management meeting, and I right next to it is the year is the calf sort of cafeteria area and somebody comes into says: there's a plane, the just hit the
painted she said the the the tower. And so we go in and we're all watching and we all think it's a some sort of accident and then the news come to, and then we see the second plane, like, oh my god, and I It was interesting because we had we had an international business. We had people that weak from all over we'll o business. Australia is in We had a man that ran our india business. It was a seek, so he wore a turban. Am We can give me home so we have. these people and it these international people that are trying to get home. They can't get home so were working over that over the next week or two to try to, but once the airline start moving again and then this particular man really had a tough time, because he was getting harassed, a lot on his on his way home, because people work
trying to make sense of what had happened, and you know they they didn't know. Yet they didn't know who was who or whatever- and it was very, very memorable because we brought all the senior team to our home and talked about the company but also talked about what was going on in the world. I would add that duty, free markets, Norton, affect us in any in any way in a meaningful way. You know I had. I will talk about this, I'm sure a bit, but I had helped president bush when he was governor run, so I had helped write. Some of the defense really it speeches when he was the governor and when he had won the presidency. I had made a conscious decision not to try to serve but to stay at free market, so I was kind of doubling down on free markets, but I I stayed really close to what was going on and public policy. How would you connected to bush connected through some people, I knew who were on his team, then that asked im, a guy you may know rich rich armitage
who is a sort of a? I don't know in person, but I know he's a defense Pesca who has served in the navy. I think navy special ops and he had been a a big player in the reagan administration. And he was helping to chair governor bushes defence team. and so I had written my dissertation on reforming defense reforming at the defense department, and so I helped to read a couple of speeches that the governor eventually gave what it said little about his vision for reforming the pentagon and that's how I got involved, but I didn't go in when he won, but that laid the groundwork. Later when he went to second her and the What year did you end up selling selling free markets, week we salad in two thousand for and close the deal, two thousand pipe Did you stay on once the deal got close to you, stay I stayed on I deal, which was a really interesting, though I had a deal that if I wasn't I became the present of the combined company and I I actually
up in the end the rare instance where I really like the ceo yoda had acquired copy. So we worked really want together. What was really a joint joint effort, but had a deal that if I didn't become seo, I'd leave arms. We're gonna pay out a super, so he I was on the track to become the ceo and I chose to do the government instead I went in the bush administration about a year after the transaction from my was the president. Bereavement went to become that which was the acquired company went to become the undersecretary. commerce department and then how was? How is that? come to the welcome to the bell way and all that stuff from emu? You now even look at the government from the outside I mean, I guess you do some sums beat riding and what not, but you know now you're in the mix. what you know: how horrible was that it was so interesting. The job that I was in is a job written about a lot these days, because it was the job that decided.
technology we could export around the world. All this talk about experts. controls and tightening up on China. That was job that I was in It was so, is interesting, but is and, in the sense that you know no one ever is happy, because all the business people say don't restricted. You're killing us and all the national security walks are saying: hey wait! A second! You know you can't give away and see happen. a lot of judgment and trying to figure out the thing that make the most sense and you're dealing with your allies who are doing all also the selling all sorts of things which you can hurt. You Wes business relative himself? It's a A thankless businesses some way, but it's a job, but it is a very important one, and what came obvious early there in that ten years that the challenge for china, and I was responsible for putting in place a rule that was gonna restrict sir technologies to China further restrict and put china.
Prince standards than some other countries in the chair he's crazy and president who comes ain't it too steep to present. bush about this directly about this thing, and this is such a this. The commerce department, is making this rule and and so I present pushed us, even though I exist he does No that's office exists and I get called to give a briefing to the national security council This. You know this policy which they eventually a bench I agreed with. We would forward on but that was the first insight into the fact that the Chinese were very predatory. About technology about intellectual property. I mean- and others were saying this to, but it was. It was much. It was much more obvious. Even then did they had a strategy for really dominating in the technological space? And we were well equipped to deal with it, an app that that challenge has become much greater in the last I at last, What did you pick up where you are in china when you travel?
through china, denounced artists who how'd you picked up by picked it up, and when I got back so I I went to china is, is part of that trip we talked about, but I was you know. I had no money and I had a backpack, so I was just trying to find the next place of the estate, but I start to go back in two thousand and five? to those who had done a little. Our business had had had a little exposure, but not much to china, but in two thousand five I started to get much more involved, that is the underside of commerce This was the hot issue that we start study, and so it became clear that the intellectual property, of the chinese was over the top. I think the results Keith alexander, who ran the who the end as ago said in testimony it's the greatest theft in history, mankind what china has stolen from the united states in terms of intellectual property in that's true. That was clarity, does apply, but it's just become much worse, young and the obvious
things that back in the day. In that time, period is, of course, a really obvious that there are stealing are let like literally like disney movies worrying whatever put dvds and sold in the music was being stolen, so all those but the the much more One thing is the actual technology and that they are true that day. We continue to try and get from us, so they can utilised for their own for their own purposes. Yoke completely and its its insidious and it's very purposeful. So there's not enough shall property protection. So it's things like you said dvd and so forth, but they force companies to do their manufacturing on shore in china for the specific purpose of building that indigenous capability. You know it some and it's ins worked yes going about, say, like they succeed, they ve succeeded. There is a great great, but a very depressing, It's a story in the journal about a month ago, the wall street journal, which had this
australia, think tank. They did an evaluation of the forty four most important technologies to economic well being, but also national parties like artificial intelligence. Quantum science by it science, satellites, china. According to this austrian think, tank in the lead, in thirty seven of the forty four right. So china's gotta play in this. The point I make about china's got a plan for for global dominance, techno authoritarian dominance. We don't have a plan and that's a big part of our our risk right now and americans think like. You could really give americans have benefited down say or they think in a four year cycle their proper. thinking to in a a lot of us are thinking in a twenty four hour new cycle. May my forty our new cycle and the chinese. Our thinking and a hundred too hundred year strategic cycle, that's what they're thinking absolutely absolutely in and when you know when I talk about,
the motivation of the chinese and where their headed silica, making this Peaches go red president. She speeches so are injured, swear diverging, which I now for the last twenty five years. It it or the bat we made. The thing that we were we were we were hoping for and was by partisan, was that if we brought a china into the global- the system that we get reciprocity, we get access to their markets and am and and that this would also help them become a benign entrant. None of those things have happened: were or over three roper three, so there's nothin reciprocity, they ve stolen or technology they become dominant in technology. They become die, when a geo you know in the last three or four weeks on the one week You had she visiting putin in ukraine and you had the foreign minister of china brokering the deal between IRAN and saudi arabia. So these guys are on the march. They ve got a plan prison.
she has a very clear path which he talked about for more than a decade and its real challenge to america's role in the world and its a challenge to you know, are our security in american way of life, so it in two thousand and five, your you. You see this You see that the people who are working alongside see. That's you start putting these some of these restrictions in place. Thankfully, you are able to convince other people. In this case, president bush, that these were the right moves and and really wants someone shine a light on its very clear with these. The right moves is very clear These attempts to you know formulae relationships with china, the debts It's like an abusive codependent relationship that you end up in the van going to be helpful, you're you're, inviting people to the party thinking like hey if we have them over and have a couple of beers with them, they'll probably end up being cool that so, and it doesn't work that way. The oil for an error. In fairness, I would have said I had. I had scepticism, so my mom
was sceptical, I was worried about the chinese military, but but I to be honest with you, I had no idea what what happened is so far beyond what even a sceptic would have imagined happening, because what they done. Is they ve created real dominance? There military is is is truly consequential. Their navy is larger than ours, their economies, as big as ours, big but gaining and in their technological leadership is high, so if he served, would it take My worst case scenario, I think, were worse by a long shot I beside. Unfortunately, we we really missed it and there's a bipartisan consensus now that we need to do something, there's not much by ports, consensus on what to do, and so one of the things I tried to do in this book is lay out the what to do oh and I will give some of that I did Trusting, though, to hear the seeds of your thought pattern on this year we go from from position to being
to have this right, the george bush's personal negotiator and representative to the G8. Yes, so this is this is a job that's been established. For. The last comment is the deputy national security advisor for economics and national security and person also is the negotiator that goes on behalf of the president to negotiate the summits of the g20 The eight- and this is an amazing thing because there's weeks of meetings that led up to these meetings. where you negotiating the? U s position on behalf of the president and then when the meaning actually happens as usual couple open issues and when the money actually happens, you're the person that, since with the present so a thursday twenty world leader sitting around table each of them have a desk behind them and and and that that's the person that that I that I like whispering in his ear, fewest museum the side, the funniest
We owe this appeared in fuel to hear it, which is when president dumb bush, when I first got hired for the job. I didn't really know. President bush- and so I was hired by the chief of staff in the national security- buys, would do this job and I get hired in august of two thousand and six and in september, is the first summit, which is in vietnam and it's of the ozzy on country. So it's like panel, twenty five leaders, it's this chinese, it's putin! It's this big deal and I'm laura in all these issues, its nonproliferation with IRAN. You know beef exports to japan and you name it all. The whole range of issues I'm trying to get the? U s position clear, I'm trying to get to see the president and I keep hearing presence on available president. There will help me Finally, I hear you're gonna brief the present on the airplane, so I've got these big binders that are full of all the position papers and the? U s
position on these developments because your team, that's putting all the stuff together. You know why, because I'm in the white house I can cooperate government. So I have a team at the state department every one of our dear you could. You have like the jeep jap, his cow export experts. Do you have the whatever you got, experts rebuilding their poor misinformation or briefing you put prevent me, but then ill when we get there It's just me here as I get the binders and I get the so we'd on air force. One and I've never been on air force one before I know no, the present
and I get a note that says president to see up in the front of the plane and incompetence or walker. We got passed notes. I got my binders, you know and I walk in as president. Mr president, here's the main topics and he goes. This is not my first rodeo I I don't need any more preparation, I'll be find them or who she's. So I go back to my seat and we get in vietnam. It'd be the summit of vietnam. We go through the whole lot, a couple of one on one meetings with Putin and various leaders, and then he and I go in the car and we go to this big conference center, where the summit is going to take place and we walk into the room and I've been briefed that there's going to be all the leaders on their big chairs in a circle with their people me, the sharp of in behind them. I walk into rooms, no sherpa tables like holy. Where, where am I supposed to be, and are all the sherpas they say are going to be in this back room where you can sit, and if you're, leader wants to talk to you. They can cabbie called up some way- oh my god, the schedule
doomed he's doing years like he doesn't have the wisdom. That idea now, I'm gonna bring em. I've got the papers, so I go. I go sit down there and is like a scoreboard which has every country and if Your leader cause for you like goes on I'm sitting there, I'm listening. I got we get the head said on everything interpreted in the different languages has like five minutes in the red button goes on it ass. His mecca, shit. I can't believe it he's calling me. What's he want to know, I got my binders I'm you know that north korea, whatever I'm walkin in so I walk into the room. They let me do the secure, eddie these guys are sitting circles just the leaders of the world and I walk on the wall and I come up behind can I lean over to me said mister present you to question. He said a push, the wrong button, he had meant to be the push that I want to talk button and he pushed the Ike call your sherpa button set. That's so I slept it, took the walk, a shave back to this
sharper. Women on and all the serbs are when anyway went pushed the wrong button, so I I tease bush about sometimes he gives no, no, that was nice laboratory testing the new sharper. And how do you do in the meeting? he did fide. You know he was right, it wasn't disperse rodeo he did despite. I noticed- There's there's videos of bush When he's running for governor in texas and he'd get up there doing debate, and he was like just good oh very, relax, very calm, articulate and then it seemed the longer he was present well when he got brett when it became president. It seem like If handlers get into his head and they're saying don't say this: you better watch out you better, not say this and it just kind of seemed to make him less fluent yap when he would say then he was when he was just run in four texts, and then I met him before and I've seen him speak in other
events now. That now is not present in its back to that kind of a gap same way, so it seems like a lot of his reputation came from the way he presented himself when whose president kind in the- strange out of you know controlled environment where they don't say does not say that and behind the scenes, and I have friends at work directly for him and they now he's totally get to go same. So that's you yeah. I think I see some those clips too, like the formal speeches or white, formal press conferences. It just wasn't his thing. I dunno what happened either but, like you see him in the on the even just with leaders at the summit or whatever he he was. He was fantastic, he was comfortable. He was funny. He was mean he he's hard boss. He was a very dumb ending boss but tat, but he had a very capable guy I don't agree with everything that president bush did butter. I deftly think he was a high integrity
leader Adam, and there was a lot like southern wont work after that you become under secretary of the treasury for international affairs, and I get these get right. You can allow your could have them keep a job as well as can keep jobs. A person caused me and says he I'd like to have you be under secretary read the treasure. The way it's organise you ve, gotta deputy. Then you have three divisions, however, international, domestic and terrorist financing, and so this international division was like that. It's the law I need financial diplomat for america? It's a it's incredible. You lead the g, seven negotiations and all these things it was a. It was a big big job and I said to my list hank I dunno. I don't really know anything about markets. You know I took this camp. I was at this public company, but I didn't really know said: don't worry about it, you know, you're right. I took this public company from nine billion, almost five hundred million. I don't know if I'm your guy has exactly right. So I set up.
I don't really know that much about about this stuff. He said you know the president and you know the economic policy makers around the world, because you ve been doin this sharper job and and you know you'll you'll, be great. You'll, learn what you need to learn and I'll teach which he learned. So I I and and everybody who's advising me says whatever you do, don't do that. You're in the white house This is gonna, be a backwater nothing's happening for the next two years, whatever you do, don't go to treasury, so I I ended up on the treasury and I get there financial crisis, you know, and it's like it's like the wild, crazy ride of hidden almost a year and a half eighteen months in the centre of that storm and and with pulse in which was which was, great great honour. What does it look like from the inside as everything's falling apart? It is
like standing in the middle of of an eight lane highway, and you have trucks and cars coming at you like one hundred miles an hour, and just when you avoid you know a truck running you over like bear stearns, he stand up and look around and you have another one coming at ya, lehman brothers or a I g. It was that kind of feeling like you're, just going from one fire one crisis to the next without and you know what pawsome I disagree. If, if he heard me say this, I don't think there was a theory, an adequate theory of here's exactly what's going on at the root cause level,
therefore, what's the what's the hole was the movie strategic, big solution with yeah there there's no, I mean when you're in a fire. You have to put out the fire, but there was you know. Ultimately I think through lots of iterative. You know good thinking. We got to an answer that saved the world, in my opinion, at least like people who now say. Well, we didn't need to do that. I mean I think we were staring into the abyss. I think we could have gone into a depression. I think the banking system could have collapsed- I think it was that close and we ended up. Don't some things that I wish we had done or had to do by dumb, but At the moment we were in and
You know? The thing I respected most about paulson is when something didn't work. He just said: okay as I'm working and try something new and he'd own it like he wasn't. He wasn't worried about his. You know he wasn't worried about people blaming him for being wrong. He was trying to solve the problem. He was stepping into the breach and owned. It completely took responsibility in you know, that's that's that's an admirable quality of the crisis yeah. It's called that we'd be nice. If more people had it, because I notice a lot of us during the pandemic, people wouldn't change their minds based on new information right. They were just with whatever information they had yeah we're just hate to do this and okay, we did it now. It's not working too well we're going to keep doing it and you'd be thinking. Hey, maybe make some adjustments, it's okay to say, hey! I was wrong. I misjudged this. I didn't think it was going to go this way. Here's Of course it we're gonna. Take you, don't see a lot of that from the government right, and we were an unprecedented, unprecedented powders and me we will. We really were in a hole, new world?
and so we had to break precedent in terms of how to respond. To it. What are some of the moves that you had to make that you didn't? Do you look back and ok! Well, I wish you wouldn't done that. Could done that before the big you know we're living it again? The big thing was that the better than capitalizing of the banks, which you know ended up to the taxpayer. cost at all, because the banks have paid back beyond that, but any time europe, the government's standing behind them as we are now and you're, creating a bit of a moral hazard, and I think we're in the middle of doing that again with the deposits and getting that balance right in terms of letting the market and discipline bad behaviour and at the same time not jeopardizing or our system. That's what you're trying to do? A? U turn and make sure that bad behave. was punished by market forces, but not hurting, I'm a dad who live in peoria just because they had their money in a minute, rachel banks.
but like that logic could have happened with the silicon valley back yeah we're here. For that the silk about miskities hammocks. What happened there is that you had terrible terrible management, then there is just a hearing. The other day, which you saw, the ceo, couldn't even defend their behaviour in terms of how they their deposits and the risks they took on so was terrible behaviour. At the same time, you had terrible oversight by the fellow reserves the regulators were completely failed. The management was completely failed. and by bailing out so- dolly banker protecting all the deposits, the people you protect, you we're essentially the the guy who lived on the street from silicon valley bank that had ten million illicit timid, our house has ten million dollars of deposits and who you didn't help is the creditor. The guy that has the lawnmower service.
it's moving along outside silicon valley bank, he got hit, and so that's a bit of the dilemma now, if you dont intervene and play some role in protecting those deposits, silicon valley bank, the risk is that you create a run on. How do we not help the lawnmower guy? Because if Europe, creditor. You got, you got here, cut it, So if you are a shareholder, you got wiped out. If you were a creditor like the silicon valley, nyc owed, you money, your wiped out where you get a haircut, if you were depositary, got a hundred percent protection of your money so that better actual terms, that's what you say it like that you realise who got protected and who didn't get protected. And so that's a problem, it's a problem and now we're in the middle of this dilemma of. How are we going to treat deposits above two hundred and fifty thousand, and what are the implications can be, and so we need. We need some more fundamental reform but this particular crisis started with really bad management and bad oversight in
when you, when you, I was extra these situations happening and its you're, reinforcing my my assessment is that just a few people in a room that are trying to figure out what to do. that's basically worth going out and and decisions that they make how much power like the pulse and have to make these decisions like when he's or or with the silicon valley bank for people at how many people are making that call hateful. Yeah the case of ike Emmy. I can speak to circumvent, make other than my imagining what's happening, but in the case of financial crisis. You had paulson a handful of key advisers working for him in the treasury and a couple of people from the white house or were connected, and then he would go make his case to the president and he get the president's thumbs up, and then you know to the said that require legislation. He go. Try to make the case on the hill which we leader we lived through a number of innovations on them and the one thing I'd say on that and
yeah, maybe it's because he wasn't a politician, but but I think Paulson his credit was solely focused on what what the right answer was. Damned the politics and the politics were bad by the way they turned out to be terrible- and I remember a moment where Paulson had to make changes, because the initial thing was they were going to create this good bank bad bank for the treasury assets If you remember remember that there was supposed to be this plan and they had to throw the planet window, do new plan and I remember, being with two possum when he had briefed bush on the original plan and then he came in a couple of days later, so we're going to a new plan. We're going to you know: do this capital injections in the banks and passos like er up pushes a cheese you know,
it's like what we were just doing. The other thing and paulson laid out the logic and pushed had just do what's right, you do with the right thing is for america for the economy out I'll deal with the politics. You just do what's right and, and in that moment, finding people that just say, let's do what's right, because the a politics or nasty its we're lucky to have him, sir? You wrap up that job. And in what you even bush leaves YAP. So I leave and push leaves I am, here the way it works. Is you submit your as a nation for noon when the day that the new presents sorted. So I remember going down and you know exiting and going down and watching the the swearing in of president obama, and I
and I I was done it. I went to three or four months not doing much new water and sweat pants and achieving and finally landed a job at bridgewater, which I was the next chapter in and how do you under the bridge? One so Bridgewater I'd, not much about bridgewater bridge was a very prominently wellknown investment firms. it wasn't his well known, then, as it is now and I A call in like october, two thousand and eight say hey, which rendered a bridge. Why set for when the middle of a crisis- I can't I can't do anything until after them. I leave and but I hadn't heard of it says to call me back in march or April, and they did. They call me back in march and I went up and interviewed and the founder of Bridgewater to get him ray dalio. Who is sort of a bigger than life guy, and I
go through this process. I call my wife at the time from interviewed directly with reducing. I advocate a native with much who but raise one of us, and I call her the way home and I said there is no way. There is no way this is going to work like this. Guy did not like me, and I did not like him. This is off to a bad start, so this is interesting, but not going to happen. What gave you that impression? He was there. He was very antiseptic. It was like this, you know, and it was a camp combative. It's a little. You know. Why would you do that? It's like sort of the interview process was not not one of cultivating your. You know it was a sort of in your face and at any cost, and he said let's watch come back up. Who was continued exports, so we did that three or four times where they all combative do get nicer. They didn't get much nicer and it all ended with a cell dinner. You know ray.
The idea of a sound dinner were the two of us for having, whereas others of honour for me, but that, but he and I had this cell dinner. He now this, where we sat across me each other, and he said you know I think you'd be great. I think this is gonna, be a good fit for you, and he said, I think, is a fifty percent he and she will make it panda eyes like that yourself right. This is you try to get you to come, and I and now I'm just being honest, I think it's a you know it's not for everybody, but I think this can be a good fit for you. I talked to When they talk about interviewing people, and I say: well, you could give him the willy walker and people of course, the willy walker if you remember in the movie, the original willie walk a movie. What happens at the end is willie. Wonka has the kid and he goes off on him and he says, you stole from me you violated this thing is yet without this ridiculous, day, sir, and they He had sat Charlie Charlie majority the kid sad, because he had stolen that that
Everlasting. Whatever for lasting candy. He had stolen one and so willie walker. adam and screams at him, but not about that about something else. If the kid's going to leave him before he leaves he gives him that thing, and it was all just a test. Dahlia was giving you the willy wonka gave you the death. You know cause if he's trade, you bad in your leg of know. Maybe you looking for you. Can you have stand the combat kate, you know who knows, but That's an inch. I've done that before were like. Oh, let's see what this person's really like I'll. Tell you what the symptoms? Definitely that you're going to push people hard to see what they're like and now you case person seems pretty cool Well, Hackworth like wouldn't, wouldn't smile or make any jokes for four weeks, and when I was in charge of stuff, I made it six weeks be a little bit no smiles for six weeks. No jokes, no smiles like oh man, it's all business yeah! Well, you would ray we get along, save save, save
You get the final. The great offer comes it. You have a fifty percent survival re as well. In the end it I didn't, I did so said the way this thing goes down. I join what What did you join ass I joined is like he was trying to put together a succession plan. He had. He had a ten year vision of this accession, so he's trying to hire a number of people who could be successors and basic came in and join. This may make to run the place and then overtime took on different things and so on. I came in and it was a good one after pretty good start in about eighteen months in he said: I'm ready. I want to step out and be the chairman anymore The ceo, the ceo with another guy cozy cozy with it with a guy who I admire, was it was it was his protege who had been a big investment there for eighteen months, had been there for eighteen months. So I take this job. you know it's tough because raise trying to be chairman, but he sort has afforded for in out, is handled. Let lord I let go a little time around and eighty
months into it. He fired me buyers me I mean it. It is like I'm in the wall street journal and you know people and people don't have been fired and I debating I've got young kids, I'm thinking about leaving, I think I'll resign. He doesn't fire me from bridgeway fires me from the job from the ceo job so demotion? I may ego check peggy go jack and I make the decision to stay at least until I figure out what we'll do and I'm picking up what I'm going to leave You can write out your whispering example. Let me stay as long as they read Write and I finally start to hit my stride and things start to go well and I'm building the business and I'm you know I'm running around the world, I'm the biggest traveler at bridgewater cause I'm getting clients and all that stuff, and so it starts to go. it's a month stand, and it goes well you're not see. This is nuts I'm fired from Kosovo. Your new job is busy devereux present president and your
and I remember the book you're saying you had the most miles, a anyone by Bridgewater Zack, which is alive my lot. I m sure I was all over the place middle east in singapore him Are you? Are you thinking you have a chance to go back? That's your position, not really you're. Just thinking, I'm gonna get what I and out of this, do your job look for another opportunity to get the trade or maybe after a while, maybe not even look like after a while I mean maybe busy opened the greatest thing in the world anyway, you know that kind of thing, and then he comes back and asked me to be the ceo again. and this time I'm sale or listen. I don't think, are you sure you're ready cash? I think you were ready last time and he it says he's ready and we we I write. I write a note to him about what's going to be cause he's a bigger than life character, I said you yeah. Let me be ceo. I read a note him about what will be required so, like you know, I've got it happen. rights on decisions around people and compensation. Not yet we agreed on what that would be an. took the ceo job and it was with it.
Another person and eventually mob just me, and it became great what year was up two thousand seventeen to those sixty two thousand sixteen to them sixteen to down seventy two you become now the coasts. oh and then the ceo bridgewater. What are you doing on a daily basis where that job? spending on public spending? Thirty percent at the time of the clients, because business model was very engaged in consulting helping them think about not just the bridgewater investment but their investments. More broadly, I'm spending, probably fifty percent of my time, trying to oversee the day to day management. Are we making good decisions? Are we managing our costs?
wait. Are we doing the things we need? Do I probably spend twenty percent of my time on people? Thirty percent recruiting you know assessing as a big people piece of it, even though it's a relatively small firms, fifteen hundred people, but it's up it's a big part of the job- is getting the people right. How much of your job is tracking, like what's going on from a financial person? active in the world so that you can at least understand the decisions that are getting made with all this money and I'm pretty engaged. But it is a machine of understood it's an understanding machine, there's hundreds of people that are doing nothing but understanding and compounding that understanding and- and so I'm a beneficiary of all that good work. So I need to stay abreast of it, but I'm not I'm not the investor, and I am the person, that's overseeing the when price and making in trying to make sure the investors who are doing a good job of allocating the capital. Is there any way
that they stratified, like the tactical investments that are happening versus the overall strategic. Do you literally assign people like ok, you're, looking at oil futures out, then someone else's looking broadly at energy? Do they it stratified. We have tactical operators, operational operators and then strategic operators. Is there something back going on, because I could see where you know the the looking at oil future, he thinks he really has a good slice of what's going on and he's pushing for certain types of investment and in meanwhile somebody look at a more strategic pictures like oh solar, taking over whatever the case. Maybe he you know the way bridge words. Invest is really unique its
It's characterized as fundamental systematic diversified. What that means is. It starts with a bunch of smart people in a room trying to think about how should the the economy work? How should this particular market work? What should happen when inflation goes up? What should happen when the fed pumps a lot of money into the system? How should that affect the markets? Taking that understanding and then building it into an algorithm, an equation that reflects that and then testing that over and over again and then when that, when that fundamental understanding is systemized in an equation, then we start to trade it in a certain way, based on
how much confidence we have and we do that in a highly diversified way. So no single position account accounts for that. Much so think about it and think about our investment strategy is, is a whole bunch of little peon else, which are the algorithms that should perform with a certain set of of outcomes over time, and if the algorithm is performing like we would expect, then we keep it in if it's not performing like we expect, we pull it out and adjusted, and so every day is about trading based on what those algorithms are saying. It's not based on anybody, waking up and say I think this whenever that thinking is it has to get built into the machine, and so that allows you to have a whole lot, a capacity to scale your investment process in the past will that are working on the investing are studying different markets. Try to see what they should be systematizing or what they might be missing. So it's like compounding the whole idea is to compound understanding because the same things in markets happen over and over again. That's
the premise so one from a leadership perspective. What did you take just go through the sea. Kosovo fired ceo, what we
big leadership. Take away from those three gifts, the big to two big take, always both, which were the feedback rich. I so, while I've been lobbying fired, I think there was merit in what what the feedback was. The first one was: how do you take in this bridge wonders like this, but lots of organizations are this incredibly opinionated smart inputs are getting for everywhere and how do you wrestle those to the ground in a way that you do a good job of making a decision? So how do you put yourself in a frame of mind? We are totally open minded you're, not arguing your listening. Your countering you're seeing different sides perspective you're, taking all these strong voices and synthesizing into the view that you'd take, and so I learned the ability to. I can get it to roma on any topic, and if I have a bunch of more people with different opinions, I can get some level of understanding and what I think we should do
because I don't I'm not anchored to my own perspective, that's a key! That's a key skill in leadership is some of one few two people have they think because of the leader they have to have the answer. Your analysis definitely yeah. I mean we just did after did back to back pod. Ass. One of them was you dont need to have an opinion about everything, gray and recognize my growing up in the seal teams. Recognising that just about Re question has more than one answer right as soon as you're. In that state of mind, it's like look, I don't care if we use your id or my ideal, which ones makes the most sense. That's that's what we're going to go with, which one makes the most sense and- and you know what you're totally passionate about. Totally passion about it. We can roll with, because it's not going be that big deal. You know, compare echoes idea. he's totally passion about, but we're we're just not gonna do dumb things right but yes, oh, open mind, listening, not going in with a preconceived notion of what you think is correct.
That's one lesson the but suited the way we would say open, minded and asserted so you wanna be open minded. Then you want to push and stress test when your hearing some may say under the way you get to the understands yet be open minded. But you have to stress test what they're saying to really see whether it's anchored and that ability to get in a room with smart people stress test, be open, minded inserted to get to resolution on what you think you should do. It's a it's a it's a super if you can get it right. The second lesson is is the lesson of just the need to drive change so when in doubt, change in doubt. Its violence of action is when in doubt move so
if you you're studying some and you think they're up for the job, but you're not sure- and you can't give me a decision- make the decision. Yet the the idea of of taking decisive action recognizing that you're going to get some stuff wrong, but that by acting you're going to learn more and then you can evolve and grow that that's an important lesson. I that's the let both of those lessons I learned from failing the first time is a sea. Oh and I must say I was the greatest the second hand, but I was a hell of a lot better because of those of those two essence yard wrote a book. The leadership trudging tax. I talk about the iterative decision making process. I talk about the fact that, while I was in the military has known as being very decisive, but I did she did all the time, because all I Do I look at big problems and make really small decisions really quickly and then adjust my decision based on the feedback, loop and I'll? Get you a thousand.
That's what your target area as he's, accurate, the feedback, loops key and they'll, be scared to get it wrong a little bit and just act on the feedback loop, How did you I could? I can only imagine that the ship to your ego. When you get demoted, yeah from see. You know that Process like of saying harden your heart. You know I had it on the surface level, I had had my challenges, but I hadn't really ever failed at anything. soap ease of use or people look at me as hell of as he has gone from. One success in the next is not quite true, but this was a clear now true here? This was a clear faced plant, and it was hard and because in bridgewater world the hero is the person that he was embracing their challenges and growing in a body, but in the world world. No, that's a big,
kick in the head right and you're trying to explain to your friends what happened? That's, okay, you know, and- and it was all it was shut. My ego, the the the the turning point on it was just embracing, it embracing way. A second, like you know, I'm at one of the most highest performing companies in the world. I I I fell short and I learned a lot from it. I'm adding a ton of value, I'm getting better and all of a sudden it became a superpower, because I could talk to anybody about our culture. Bridgewater and say: wait a second, it's all about evolution. It's all about growing! It's all about embracing your challenges, that's how we get actually that's how olympic athletes become olympic athletes, so yeah, I'm I'm the role model on this or I'm trying to be, and I and it gave me a lot of empathy, understanding what it's like for people to fail. It gave me
they came in courage, I think to make more decisive decisions on people that needed. You know needed to change jobs, so why my thought it was a real gift, but at the time it if you like it, meanwhile While you do. Am I right in its wake after this writing the book that you became a member of the defense policy board advisory committee with general Mattis, your time as well. Yeah well, I came, I became a so I'm I didn't know president trump at all, but when he was elected I get a phone call from mike pence who I also did notice. That said, come interview for treasury Mr Sylla, so I this is a funny story. I'm driving down the bed minster and I think this is a secret meeting. You know what I'm gonna come in the back and interview at present trump for treasure sector and my wife caused me. The poses no, I think I think people go to see that he is made public I said. Well, do you know she is? I just watch mitt romney why
Gowda bedminster is like two hundred cameras there and I said, I'm I mitt romney, I'm going to come in the back and she she said. I dunno So I drive in it's like cameras, crazy, and I I walk in an interview with president trump and the first thing. He says I've never met me. He is out of his mouth is he began on tv? That's the first one when I meet him I interviewed for treasury secretary I'd. I don't get the job, but when I walk back out on the front porch, he says I'm going to give you some good press here and- and he says I'm going to like we're talking about something very important, so he's good he's, he said so so how's it going. What are you doing? It's like there were not talk about anything, and then you know I'm standing there and that the cameras and the thing I'm I'm on the main stage and my people are calling my mom and dad what the heck is going on and on and then I leave and up I dont get the job. but I get offered the job of deputy defence secretary which out which I decline, given where I am a bridgewater one, I'm going
and I, and so I get put on the defense policy board. That's the introduction to it, and I I I almost went to be deputy secretary, but but declined to do that and then president trump came back late, when I was in it later and administration asked me whether I want to come and do some other things, and I I held off on that. But that was my initial introduction to him. but then your wife ends up working for a waiver right. My wife, who are working for him and how that happen, they we didn't. She didn't know anybody. She got a call from a vodka trump wendy. An interview with with the present eventually- and did better than you she debated succeeded, but then she what happened. She was there for a month or two and then a friend from the military a charming master who, had known from my time in the treasury became it national security visor and he asked her to be his deputy.
So she was his deputy during her per year and a half in the white house, and and here he he left, she laughed and he left it. that- was a kind of a bloodbath in their oftentimes. It was a tough, it was it was, it was tough, it wasn't. Dump it wasn't. A coherent team, which is taco, he said, was a cohesive as our car was nickel here, the team, but beyond that it wasn't. It in the work of national security, which you know, if you think about something where we need to put a wee aligned and put her strong, clear vision forward in the face for it. It was a challenge at times. So She works there for a year and a half the more that yeah something in general, a reefs she left a little before generally the master came back, she was commuting. We have, we had kids, don't ice goin, so she she she had always said she was only gonna spend a year. She spent more than a year and its work,
what year did you wrap up there? I think she must have wrapped up in two thousand and eighteen, and at what point did you decide? So you continue a bridge water. You continue with that job as ceo. At what point? Did you decide you're going to run for the Senate seat in pennsylvania, which you did so is when you failed again. Yes, thank you, say eight recalling that embraces so the second were embracing urgently exactly so he toomey said he was gonna step down. I think early in the year and some people had approached me about running and I thought about it and we decided not to do it and then you know sort of had the back of my mind but decided not to do it and then the afghanistan thing happened and that to me was such a debacle
such a humiliation. The the the way we left, our allies hanging, the people dropping out of the wheel wells, the disgrace. You know it was just and I thought to myself god I want. I want to get in the ring and try to do something about that so I decided to to run. We then had a health scare in our family, with my wife, and we are so we said when I running can I have said so, but what the? Why did you leave bridgewater? Where do you live in a red run? No, it August I didn't leave. We had this health literally like what it right after we decided, and so we went through that with her and she by thanksgiving look like we're gonna be ok, so we said we're in iran that I told bridgewater.
And Bridgewater said these are people that I worked with for more than a decade. They said great, we'll support you hundred percent but stay through the end of the year, so we can get a good succession plan in place, which I did so. I launched the campaigns january thirteenth and the primary was may seventeenth, so it was a five month crazy. You know crazy campaign that but a great experience, and as you do not so you are you end up in the distance. Race is the Republican for the reply, we can see, and you end up running against- are that guy man Let us right cruiser guy from from at on fox news. I believe the fox there's. No, he was on he was had a huge show, Oprah his initial showbiz move into show business was through Oprah Oprah had him on her show up at his own show. It was a huge show, ease of extremely when I was thinking about getting in paris? Had
has a hundred percent, nay. My deep. I my way put say: will you have no name? I everybody thinks Mccormick's a spice? So this is the appropriate thy. Ok, let tat he So he was not viewed the conservatives, but he decided to jump into the race. He had gone to medical school in pennsylvania and he was he knew president trump quite well and he was close very close to Sean Hannity, and that was you know, really his base of support You make this effort and, like you said it, I got up against some of the junta percent name recognition, and then you don't have any name recognition of the fact that he said pepper right, and then trump card trunk ends up coming on board and and supporting oz in and you did you guys know at this time you would be run against the sky fetterman. Yes,
well- we didn't know for sure, but Fatima was- was really strong in the democratic primary and so many was from from my perspective, we thought he was a pretty good candidate tab, as he was so laughed so progressive this before any the health issues were evident. He was so progressive that day it felt like it to be a good match up for republican, because he seemed to too liberal for pennsylvania So you and you go into that. You gonna some really interesting details in interesting, a word. It's it's a little it's hard to read. You know when you read me, start reading about all that's going on to the political situation and It's what you ve up against and like how these elections are taking place. It's worth reading the book to see better understand that because I think it gives people better perspective. When these actions are happening of what's going on and what they actually mean you're you're, going through that,
and then oz, winds and Oz loses two federation which which the same kind of the cuban people, shocking. Why did this happen? He has among clear, I think, come. I think, there's a couple things that happened. I think up eyes had trouble convincing pence. the union's, and he was a pennsylvania. I think in the air, like seventy seven, general, seventy seventh january, repeating repeating that seventy seventeen- that's impressive, so I California, where it was like a very few people. The first year, the everyone moved everyone's every move, your like three weeks ago yeah, so he yes, he had that. That was tough. That was tough and then he I think, ferryman ran a really clever campaign to politically given his health issues where he didn't get exposed. Until
in the cycle with the debates. They ran a very successful melon ballot campaign where he had seven hundred thousand male endows before the election day. So he was an elite and then I think the the dobbs decision really motivated turn out and am- and I think That was that all made it harder he had brought than he expected. I was very strange to watch unfold and again it sort of shows you as a just now while american citizen it was shocking to him, it was shocking me to see that happen and then trump weighing in four oz. How did that doesn't make? people. You know tramping such it. divisive figure. Does that make people whilst stronger against the person tromp supports he hides in a week. When we got into. We were very clear: eyed I'd, never run for elected office
my wife and I have been around politics enough to know, so we thought we had to do five things to win he's up. This is a hard hard thing to get right. We thought we had to appeal to the base, which are largely trump voters mega voters. That's right where I grew up in pennsylvania. My military background without would appeal my my policies. I thought present trumpet at a number of good things. Policy would appeal so so that was first. We also had to appeal to the more modern republicans around philadelphia, forty percent. voters or in the five counties around thought out, so we had to run a campaign that appeal to both conservative elements and more moderate elements. We had to run a campaign. It didn't require. President trumps endorsement. We didn't believe we needed that to win, but we believe we didn't. You have him attacking us him attacking It would be a problem which, which eventually was but it's a purple state, so you need to run a campaign that can also get independents and conservative democrats and then finally, he got away
yup every morning, look in the mirror and like that person and say I believe that this guy is running for the right reasons and stay true to his values. That's what you gotta do to succeed, and in the end I think that Tat was the path I was on. President trump, I had heard he was going to endorse eyes, he knew eyes and all that I expected that was possibility, hoped it wouldn't happen. So I called him, but they said like to come down and talk to you who says pop. I dunno six weeks out- and I said I was running- I was I was up in the polls by body points, so I went to more mar and present trump came in and a heap ask his assistant men and run a video that that he, taken in the video basically had me talking about, and that was being asked on Bloomberg about the january six and I a and the polarization of the country registered as a leader president trump shares responsibility for that, and I and then Biden came up on this screen in the end saying he wanted
if the country and the interviewer said what do you think of that, and I said I wish him well he's. Our president wish him on unifying the country, so present trump is upset that I said those two things. He said those are very bad, very bad and then he said to me: davy can't win unless you say the twenty twenty election was stolen and I say miss priscilla am I can say that an so based on that he endorsed eyes two days, It hurt and I was still winning that all say that the two thousand and twenty allies he didn't. He didn't say that exactly he said we need to go back and look at it and instead a bunch of things. And there now what happened was tat these before the election. They, a rally I was still up in the polls and president trump came to town and up and he a peep, late enemy took me to the woods. And they made a commercial out of that and that, ultimately, I think was no. lose my nine hundred votes. There is one point: four million cast. I lost by nine hundred
so when you lose by nine hundred votes. There's lots of things you could have done differently, but but certainly haven't president trump as opposed to be didn't it didn't help me any. Is that doktor ass, nearly ass, well yeah, that's doktor us, I think I've seen him on fox news getting it that's. I he's been interviewed a lot of fox news. That's probably it, but he didn't have a show there. Young get a show, though he was on Oprah. Then he had doctor oz. Russia speak show yeah. What do you think of this guy cause? I don't really know echo assessment and on politically and what kind of show was it was like a doctor can talk, show
well like hague, up impulses await a puppet of a real boy. I was like a you. You have gastro intestinal scenarios going on. Here is what you can eat and sleep so, like a health show healthy medical, rang Lee you know, and then they had another one collect the doktor sitgreaves like you a lot of data on tv wagon, and there is a lot at stake area that has a dry land of ev, certainly unique level of expertise and while you so as you're going through this whole thing, that's when you decide that that's really decided. You start writing this book writer. When do I started writing a book couple years. Early, ok, yeah, I'd sold the book to senator great based on this idea of the country. You know he talk every talking about a decline. America is in decline and there's I talk about what to do and I said, like I'm, a guy agreed in decline now which I'd like to write the what to do book and so
started. Writing it, and I got about with with the disc a great guy James cunningham of my colleagues and I get about sixty percent done then I decide to rise to the book kind of went on whole drawn, and then I finished it. After all, so so this book and again, look I've, read a couple excerpts from the book and get the book, for the stories, but then really essentially what you said this book is and you use the stories it anecdotally disappear, what you're talking about or to give some background, but essentially, book is what are we, supposed to do. What should we be doing right now? Let's talk through some of that stuff, the first of all, let's talk about the fact is american. It in decline. You said, yes, you agree why are we in decline? What's happening? He hates it at the moment it wherein economic decline. So what's it mean work? Thirty one trained dollars of debt, we have forty, your high inflation if I was a if I was a family guy- and I had family, I had three kids,
while it is making me I'm for kids- and I have what how much that we have Thirty one try and thirty one trillion. What's that, if you put that into household terms how far into debt, as is my family- and I may Let's make fifty grand here. I think it something like a hundred thousand, dollars per person. If you take the population that states abide divided by three with joy, every up, ok, me. What I want I want is a is a is complete the for my family, for my family to be served. the trillion dollars. How much debt is. Is my family and I make fifty grandeur? yes, so your family is your family you're in debt, buy you make fifty thousand a year and you're in debt by over one hundred thousand one hundred and twenty thousand cars our gdp. Ms, ten trillion or something like that and are dead, is thirty two trillion
So if I say hey what my mortgage, you know, I gotta two hundred thousand dollar mortgage so that doesn't sound that bad yeah. You got it you it has no mortgage, but you ve got an asset right. So The problem is that you ve got this mountain of debt. and the servicing of that debt. getting more more expensive as interest rates goes up, so the government That's crowding out ARCA path, see to invest in the things that we need to make amerika great, and on top of that, it's one of the big drivers of inflation and that problem that your family has is not only the dead They has it and they have is that inflation hurt us all, but a really hurts working ways because your dollars, your fifty thousand hours, is buying less and less than it used to. It working families and elders on fixed income or who gets screwed by inflation and and that's the big probably give assets. Then you your view, live in large right now. That's the big thing alone. On the
pedro. They saw it up close and personal. The last twenty years has sought for a beach americans, if you had assets, he d great, all these p, with assets, investors. They think I think they're geniuses every asset went up in the last twenty years right, but if you were living paycheck to patients, which is sixty percent of americans. Ninety set of americans don't have any material assets, real income has been flat and inflation is gone up. Crimes gonna drug crisis. It got up. It's been a bad twenty years for a big chunk of amerika. And that those are the people that are most pissed off about the direction of the country so go back to this metaphor, if I m too, in one thousand dollars in debt. I make fifty thousand dollars a year. it's not a mortgage causes not against a house. It's like money that I blew Breton gets like debt. It's
What you have hanging out there with no asset behind and it's on the credit card and the interest rate is high and it's starting to get to a point where my monthly paycheck no longer covers the interest rate. Just the first rate on the money that I that's perfect That's where we're out that's worth and ends the economic problems big, but then so scrape homestake, because we had this emergent challenge with china. We talked about the technology leadership. We talked about their their capacity to challenge us on the world stage, but we'll have a spiritual crisis, because that the notion that america's exceptional, the notion individual country concede with individual freedom as the driver is at risk You see this in what the history being taught, nor schools about america conceded said: you see this in our business, a community where the idea of capitalism and merit shipping. We see in the military where the climate change strategies we before the military strategy, where this progressive ideology so all
all of these things, are leading to eighty percent of americans thinking the count is heading in the wrong direction. Two thirds of americans think that their kids can be less well off than they are safe. he percent of americans living patriot, a paycheck. That's why we're in decline damn, and so that's the bad news is bad. the good news is been here before you know this is they can story? We get to the edge of the cliff reports. back had happened before were too had happened in the civil war. It happened in my lifetime in the late seventies. We had sixteen percent inflation. We had asked lines around the block. We had all these initiatives. You can only go get gas on the idea or the even. Dare I remember that's all right. We we had desert one, disaster, where we lost eight service members on the iranian sands, when we try to rescue hostages ripe for years later, I'm at west point your joining the navy and we have inflation under control. The economies on fire were in the middle of the reagan. Defence build up,
there's capitalism, there's hope it's morning in america and four years later, ronald Reagan, with some of the positive do now, but also some new new policies. For now that we need to do now, not just reagan, us he's, but leadership makes a big difference. So this is an hopeless declines, not inevitable, but neither is renewal. It depends on. What we do that's what if you, if you're worried about one thing today, I think the thing you should most worry about is its future on the tv. For me, the newspaper there's not a hell of a lot of people saying a talking about what we should do its mode. Lee backwards, oki is mostly grievance. Looking does not allow. a vision forward. Looking in that's that's what I'm trying to do in the book So some of the things that you point on the book is, cultivating our nations talent, witches. A reform of education, a focus on education, technology, which you mentioned somewhat already. You you you have a quote in the book The economist and its
as the world's most valuable resource is no longer oil but data gap. Yet so there's three pillars that I'm talking about you know when you're a ceo- and you know this with your businesses- there's like a hundred things, you could fix there are. So many things you need to fix and the challenge is to pick the three things or for things and get focused on. What's gonna make the biggest difference in these three things that I'm zeroing it on, I think have the best chance of bringing back a renewal in america, but also helping us to confront china because the biggest thing we need to do with china on I'll talk about what to do in camps. in china, but we need to go to the gym. We need to build our muscle home and so it starts with our people. Our people number one s head and and school choice is the path to reform our school systems conservatism and beat the drum four score choice for decades cove. It was a huge step forward because he had
hence looking over the shoulders of their kids and seeing the history the speaking time. Seeing that the ten we'll scores and standards that we have in terms were twenty. Second in the world, among industrialized countries, they see this sexual ism. That's being taught in our schools, so school choice really is. Is it has a moment: conservative governors, scoreboard elections, there's turn- and I am optimistic. Second something I know you feel strongly about, which is. We need skill training, not every kidney, it's for your education right among the campaign trail, I'm fracturing sites these great hundreds. thousand send dollar a year. Technical jobs there importing kids in Oklahoma and Texas, We don't have skills training programmes. Every manufacturer I visit has made the biggest inhibited growth skilled workers now, so we need to take the g I bill, I'm all sorts of benefits and double down on our capacity to help our young people get skill training- that's gonna, give them great middle class lives and opportunities. Young.
Brainwashing, I'm not the only path they can take out. A high school is about a college total, which is a path for for nothing everybody I would go so far as to say as much kids could at least go out and span for five years doing a trade doings something that doesn't take any college whatsoever and call if you wanna go to college good, but you can end up in debt you better figure out that that's what you want to do. Look you're a great example. You went to a four year. College got your degree in engineering, something you realized two years into something you never wanted to do, and it wasn't very good at as a classic example. Luckily, you were in the army and you ended up with a job in the army, figured out your path, but a lot they're trying to make a decision what they want to do for the rest of their life when they're eighteen years old, they don't what they want to do that they need to go. out there in and get a job get a trade get a technical skill, and perhaps that leads with great life, and you can get further education on down the line. So we got
the choice of schools, which again seem so obvious- and if you ve been apparent, I got for kids like do you have for kids. You can look at schools in and you can figure out. What's going on and imagine being in a situation where your kid, you don't want, your kids go to school and you're not allowed to do it or as crazy. Well in the That's the thing about school choice had so ironic is the people it hurts most or minorities and working families, because I can't afford another choice right. They can afford that middle class white people in the suburbs of philadelphia can afford a choice. African american. its downtown philadelphia can afford choice. So if you want to create opportune, ready for all which it was wet america's supposed to be about scotia. That's the way you do it. You put the money with the kid and and that's the path to creating competition and quality so that a big piece of any of the other thing I talk about, which is really important. Is immigration.
the borders, a disaster. I went to see it. We ve got to stop at the fetnah crisis. Has may we lost five thousand b? We gotta stop the border. We gotta get illegal immigration. Control binds been a disaster But we also have you learned honestly, the border had it now know I've cuba. When, in arizona I mean you can see the same thing here, we real friends at our border patrol you're, crazy. It's you know it's it's It's actually saint bride, its act saint. What's going on, I mean when you talk to the guys that are on the ground spoken, protecting the their border patrol. They have waves of people coming over with come over and they give then they get. Obtained by the border patrol board, which will take him to a hotel gives them money a phone ended report date six months in the future and then Good luck see that's what I think they get seventeen hundred dollars or through gender dollars or something like that over and then they never see him again. Obviously, that's what
but it's happening every single bad. Is it it? It's crazy to think about what you know The ironic thing is that mid places like pennsylvania is a big deal. I mean pennsylvania is one of the worst states in the country on fentanyl that fentanyl crosses the border. The cartels manage it through. You know how small and compact it is. They can come across worthy in twenty four to forty eight hours. They can be in the northeast part of it country, my hometown right on route. Eighty and these small communities had this huge influx of fennel fetnah is super cheap its super compact caught everything within fennel, so marijuana would ever saw the sudden you get. People addict or worse dead and that five thousand. Simplicity does seem include all the people that are in drug rehab and everything else. So this is like a huge blight. Citing, but so we got a fix that, but but the thing we can't lose is that reform skilled immigration is also what part of the future, so we can have Lee
immigration that works. My wife's legal immigrants from from Egypt, my wife's illegal immigrant from england. We gotta do this right. We can't so that. That's that that's the talent, peace then the two, biology, pieces, here's a reality. We are competing on it, a terribly unless playing field So if you wanna make microchips you gotta have way more capital, you get a deregulate and a lot of these technologies, and the chinese are heavily subsidizing. State owned enterprises, so it's it's tragedy that we have. lost our domestic semiconductor industry, meaning ninety percent of semi conductors that we need army The picture ninety miles from mainland china right china's built thirty two chip fabs the last ten years we built zero So this is this is the result of stupidity and we're going to change that the way I described in the book we had become china, and we, and become the democrats with this industrial policy that we just are giving money.
Companies an import imposing all sorts of social policies like day care and diversity. Inclusion right, we can't do I We need to have a unique american innovation policy where we essentially use pub. Policy with tax incentives or capital draw private sector capital into the areas that are most important for us strategically, and that's the way to let the private sector forces will work. So let me give you an example. If you want, at compete in the ai industry, create a fund. Private sector invest ten billion dollars, the U s. Government invest ten billion dollars and the private sector, capital is allocated to companies that cat capel's, ok to companies, based on where they think the higher returns and the EU government takes first laws, so we make capital and more attractive and capps its upside of fifty percent. So you just took a privacy if the opportunity- and you just use the return to bail out of private sector capital.
That flows into that and you're gonna keep the benefit of our capitalist, constructive destruction that we have in our system, so those are the two things that I recommend in the book and then just broad speaking china, like for I mean I think, first of all, people don't reckon there's plenty of bull that don't recognize what's happening with china, you already went into what choice: is doing what they have been doing and what they're trying to do. really obvious to anybody that pays attention. This kind of thing So what's what do we do? What we do and, broadly speaking, for china, china, china has a plan we I have a plan so for us think, just three or four things first, we need a strategically decouple. What does that mean? Sam conductors pharmaceutical satellite five g. We can't be dependent on it I know for those things we need. Either had those things at home, or we need to have them in those supply chains in the hands of our closest allies. Second, We can't invest
in chinese companies that are doing things that are in direct support the plc or the communist party. So right today, California, in silicon valley, there are companies that are in casting an artificial, intelligent companies in china. They do business but the commons party. We can't do that to happen, there needs to be review. Processes stops it. We need the whole china accountable for bad behaviour, cove it is there. Best example! So here we go three years ago. It was suggested that maybe the virus that that started in Wilhite might be affiliated with the whip, hand lab that does research on such viruses, that was heresy, that liberal media went crazy on that here we are three years later. The intelligence services say: that's that's a strong possibility, so we get a whole. An accountable for those kinds of things. By sanctioning imminent and calling it out we're not even calling it out Fourthly, we need to do is have a small, our strategy,
with Australia, japan and south korea to really isolate china in the in the south pacific and really build alliances. They give us added power Those are the four things we need you now: here's the rob not saying in some of my colleagues and friends are that we should cut of all relationships, which I think we have to coexist with china economically to so in york pencil mania. In one day I walk into a me. Miss manufactory shop chinese there there were the dumping on steel. We a sanction on. We gotta stop globalization. We gotta go after the chinese. Am I as a kid. I hear you. I go next door? It's a machine shop that builds max for harley davidson motorcycles, harley davidson based in europe, even more cycles and the guy says whatever you do- don't mess around with china, that's our big market, so the reality of manufacturing, so I'm not making the cat So we need to stop all trade with china. I am
in the case of china as a threat and we have to make sure the most strategic things are done here at home and hold china accountable yeah. Clearly I'm doing I best over here we're making we're making clothing in america and china. We got factories in maine. We got factories in north carolina, we're going to build more factories, but that's just one industry and clearly all industries and that's a very basic industry now listen to it is an important industry, but that the the asked of manufacturing needs to be moved back here, clearly you re out all the. In much more detail in the book and it as you. if someone had sat down a thought. Okay, what we actually do about all this so that is the point miss of the book I kind of want to wrap up here, just rina to close out the book. Here you say we at a pivotal moment in our incarnations hissed in our nations story behind,
We see a grand legacy of victory and failure, ingenuity and war decline and renewal, all of which you brought us to this point. I have us lies. Eight uncharted territory, it is up to to choose the path, and it is up to our leaders to guide the way uniting us once again around the creed of liberty and opportunity that binds our national fabric. This is the exceptional american story. We get to the edge of the cliff. pull ourselves back. America can renew itself with a birth of liberty, opportunity and Eric and power, but we all must do our part to fulfil that promise. America you are a resilient bunch. They know how to take a punch, and no matter how many times they get knocked down, they always get back up, though arms may be tough, they believe in america they believe can do better,
believe we can revive our nation and our chief america promise their faith is rally point I return to when my own fails and it fills me, with an unerring confidence that we can and must meet the moment so We certainly have to meet the moment and you know, I know you reference reagan- a decent amount in the book, but you know we are. We are the last hope and we have to step up. No doubt about it or theirs is greater. They just great quote from william at buckley. His great concern if the neighbors you know- and he talks about citizenship and citizenship is- is a privilege to be born and to live and to prosper in the greatest country in the history of the world. But it's also responsive
ability to do everything we can to preserve it and so right now. I think we were long on privilege, in a shorter responsibility and I think that's what's gonna have to change to make come what may talking about their reality. It am, I am hopeful, I'm hopeful. So what, What would the citizens need to do when they devote? they devote. Elections have consequences. If you have any doubt about that, go to pennsylvania, look at what happened there think anybody Pennsylvania's looking at their senator right now and John futterman in saying we are being well represented, an dumb and so they got a boat they gotta be active right now. What's happening is that fifteen percent of people on the right and the left are driving the national conversation they are, driving where we're headed as a country and seventy percent. The people in the middle who agree and a lot of stuff arm, basically not being recorded
because they're not actively voting, and ah you know, I'm unfortunately not actively participating rather and unfortunately, until- We really mobilise ourselves around what we need to be successful. Witches solutions that looking forward competence, it used to be that public life in public office based on competence and success. Those were the drivers right and up, and we don't see. We don't see that so that the last part of the book talks about taking all these great ideas, but if you have leadership, leadership, really matters and in idiot we don't need thousands of these. We just see a handful of right people the right places. You know that from your career, the right people in the right places at the right time can change the future of of of everything and that sir, that's what we need, so it didn't we just which need to keep pushing Think you're gonna take another crack at this thing thinking hard about, The last time I was out voted.
Seventy one- and I did it anyway- at six daughters and one wife circular. So we were rowing. We're we're we're we're rallying abodes again will see what happens. Work people find you a day, Mccormick book, dot, com, and I'd appreciate any any engagement on the book. The book is meant to be a real effort to say what we should do. And I think the more we can do but what we should do, I think, the more we're gonna be in the right direction and then you're on twitter at dave, mccormick, p a gap. were interim dave mccormick, Pierre, your dave mccord. wikipedia dot com right. Well, that's right! So, hot enough you decide You're gonna take another crack at it. That's what people could find you echo charles, yes you got me your questions here, quick one, gonna rewind break,
I have yeah that has the intense part right here. This is actually the thing I can always what else? Okay, so you referenced playing football two days or or camp football camp right fall camp here. Is that today's yeah okay? So how would you compare and how long is that when we go to weeks ethics to easier to use all how'd, you compare boot camp today, as far as like lack of freedom and just like the constant, oh man, an open book camp had no four. The bouquet had no freedom, and enrages, go had even less freedom, where you literally have no agency or even moment to moment that everything everything you gotta, you gotta drill, drill, instructor or a ranger instructor crawling up your you know what because our memory football camp same deal two days, but safe from just resting between work out and stuff and meeting it. We had
of freedom as well as the only reference I have sitting where we can? But so I always wonder like how does that compare it's it's like way, we're slavers way worse and worse. That's why works people yeah! No, that's! Why that's why? It's not that! I think the loss of freedom is the biggest shock when you go to boot. Camp yeah, because I have friends- hu. I played football with who went into the military and stuff and they said it's. They say it's just like football. Worse, maybe physically and may be physically area that good that you are a good thing. Please may arise loretta Eric David, any many closing thought No, he listened. Thank you for having me I'm going downstairs to look at the merch section yeah. I see what you got when you have humor for sure. I appreciate you coming on appreciate you joining us and sharing the lessons learned and obviously thanks your service Lee troops in combat and protecting
and preserving our great nation and thanks for a common on ensuring the battle- when to renew america thanks for having thanks for everything, you're doin and with that david Mccormick has left the building echo charles. Yes, maybe the countries in rough shape. You know we talk to my glover you know we are we ready on that perspective, be prepared, you know gotta do what we can to help the country out, One thing you can do is when you want help the country will not help the world when you want to make things better start with yourself. You norms and standards of get your own world in order that's a good place to start and it will help the rest of the world as well. You know red study exercise. Do some digital is my recommendation, maybe get yourself,
some work out of the day servant in area here it's the ward! So there you go when you do that kind of stuff, you're going to need to fuel your body. To do that, I recommend I recommend you do that with chocolate fuel If your backup, I recommend you get in protest at, is in the break out protein. I had a protein cookie and I had approached mark, though you took seventeen plus thirty, you know that is cheer. Forty and forty seven grams of protein. I've got it in the four minutes: polly less that's no yoke there. That's a legit rebuilding yeah and, if you're open as we speak, you're over there, you are you catabolic or no animal. As a were in the game, g teach critical yet fully and So in a way we always say hey, should we recommend jacko few We say why, but I think it's important to say I think, on alone what could be wrong, but
deported to say, hey. I recommend this fuel and this is why ok cause look, let's face it. The lot of fuel out there, the supplements as this, and that whatever, but, along with, let's see your garden variety supplement. Nation, some There's no downside for the sun preferred like consider the energy drinks. Poison in their no sugar in their no oddball preserve it is that you bodies, gonna, reject by the way and there's a whole physiological process. For that rejection, which is its not funded, listen, but it happens and the lesson these other ones strip entrepreneurship, Very little of what you say is vandalism if you're going to be glad you know this stuff, if you don't I'm telling you I'm just saying brother says that this is the clean fuel jungle fuel. So keep that in mind, I think, support all right. So there you go jack of robot, comcast yourself, some joint warfare get yourself some super krill does get yourself geography. What you can get it at geography are coming in at vitamin shop you get. It won't go that bottom right,
hidden squeeze. It walked. That's! Ok, At gnc women get that bottom right. What does that? That's where the shelves? Oh? Okay? Yes, when you appropriate shelf the big m, the big beverage empires yeah, bought our space for a lot of money, will cause they're just their derby empires I get it. They see a rebel threat and they're like we gotta eliminate this bro I'll. Tell you what that's like. I feel like The toy is going to be on star wars, bro, to be honest with you, yes, but you know what they did was they pull? You know like when you do a google search goals you have all the sponsored ads in front, doesn't necessarily the most appropriate for you, it's just the ones that they ve track or in this case, is not appropriate for actually bad for you. What I'm saying so? Did you're, paying money to poison. You begin the front of your eyeballs when you walk in that in that I'll be down for that we'll just like you said, look down to the right, just like you have to scroll down to maybe the third or fourth option, the real one, the organic, the real one yeah there you go so there you go, you can get it there, vitamin shoppe, gnc millets,
commissaries Hannah efforts, dash stores in maryland, wake fern shopper, hd be in order, She began a strong. What are we gonna work meyer up in the midwest west or harris teeter. I saw someone tweeted where we were the air is twitter out of stock, always bonds me out. A kind of bonds me out, but also makes me fired up because it means a bunch people. Nor did it get more. We'll send more sorry, it's not in stock lifetime. Fitness shields just went into shields credible stores. we're in a bunch of small jim's everywhere. That's growing that growing jujitsu james crossfire gems. People are getting after it in one of those two ways: they want access to the good stuff. The jackal fuel you if you on one of those gems, Fiona jujitsu academy or you across with Jim, you can email or any kind of gm or any kind of digital. academy, The only be a victory to be any any kind of Jimmy can finish. Location aileth did could be needing club. If you got knitters that are like you need to
focus. We're doing that last little, not that you're tying knitting clubs you're welcome into the game. My this daughter went through a net phase road knitting, you some! I you do the attention span. It's it's a tedious job meeting using up to sticks in their knitting, yeah, yeah, fully knitting crocheting, macrame yeah, all that stuff or I did that yeah fifth grade I made like one knot and it was like throwing it at the wall stabbing somebody with the needle thing no matter what your little club is you got that you want that wholesale calcutta, J, F sales address of your backup, get yourself! Some of that! Thank you, for support, jocker fuel growing, taken arena. Why you make a good product? That's and people are down for the cost. You two years ago, I read articles that I really liked your the store and get some poison for my body. No one saying that look. They might want the the the upside they might want. The upside didn't want
outside, but if there is not an option, let's get what they get do any more people out, so let's keep getting the job of your back on what we got strew, also origin, usa, hopes that talk about supply chains and also stuff, they you can do is another thing. He knew the big deal and manner I you know how, and I gotta admit I did think it was a patriotic move to buy a pair of jeans. You didn't think you didn't think you were supporting national security to buy a pair of jeans or to buy an american. like. Oh, I wanna help america with its national security. Today, Julia to be from origin usa, you didn't think that you think the teacher was like. Oh now, I'm really gonna help out the aids is of america, international security and my children and my grandchildren. I caught you go had none another, that's actually part of what they like. You don't realize I'm with you well, you don't really realize it and then and in it stands to reason that
they're a while when you think about it, you're like wait a second if I go and buy even this goes for further like energy drinks, for example, if I by the poison one or the one just readily available without making the effort to look down into the right to see the clean one made in america by the way, and I keep in that poison one? Now it's off the shelf now the poison producer just produces more. So you know. So it's like the cycle. You've seen him saying and if you don't do the right in the in the in the set in the case of american made, if you don't do that, we don't get that cycle going and that's kind of what's been happening. no that's not happening anymore were known the cycle in the other direction there, margie, usa, darker to haunt gear, get your area, near to the ever gotten or tax here, I think you might have got some form of autumn. Oh really think so. Are not the answer is not, nor does it make. If I got a box- and it came to my house and then I would echo Charles subject: europe assessment
yes. We got that we got some is we definitely have some over on my side of the table large extra training training gear. It's been a long time coming- probably wanted First things I talked to repeat about you know we need a quick dry waking aunt. I fungal like all those things teacher. Now they took longer. Why is supply chains were jacked up because what you just said. So, jacked up anymore. We got you covered. We got this words, we got the the tops the way. king quick dry, athletic training, t shirt, so all that stuff common standard, to get some of that desert origin. Usa, dot backwater percent not made in china, so there you go what else It also jack was store, called chocolate store. There's one we're look wrongs path. Maybe today, There may be individually everything
get em origin. U s a rash guard that is made in america, but it's from job store that way you get. Maybe you might like those designed better. Maybe you might hey man, you might maybe like the origin designs, it's cool, you can go there, it is cool, but you can also go to the yahoo store and get a a more of a chocolate design. Yeah it's little bit different of a. How should I say this? Like the vibe, the vibe the identity. I guess maybe that's not the right one, but either way the either you're supporting national security in this nation strip. So tat if you wanna, represent discipline equals freedom if a want? good. It's like it's almost like a very personal element of your thinking on the pan. I would say that the best way but as of right now it's hard to skip a workout when you're wearing a discipline equals freedom, t shirt very hard or rashguard very can be challenging very true. I don't recommend it Also, we have the on their we'd have be short. Locker was the new design every month subscription scenario,
most recent one seem quite popular most recently. literally got texts and thames say, like came ass, little slightly dessert very specific requests for that design. They have never seemed like it's free. It's called a shirt locker! You click on there, but anyway, yes, on jocko, stork, dot com. If you like something get so jocko Underground dot com go subscribed; that's u can get, though the additions palm castle media, which is called jargon underground, and we talk about subjects that adjacent to yet not the same, as this part cast a little bit more focused on life yeah, no more focused on rag matic info mason to utilise immediately without filter the light? Were it kind of sorted itself out to be straight up every week, life advice from jocker debts. definitely what it is and answering questions which is
life, advise us, we re free lab questions you know that that actually do apply to more people than just the first ass, a question. So there you go jack on around our home. Look at cop eight dollars need ten cents a month. That's how we own that that platform and we can never be denied our freedom on that point. and because, if you can't afford it, that's ok, email assistance at jacqueline around our com. That's what we're doing for we youtube thing subscriber that society, origin, usa, youtube see. What's going on and origin usa check out the job. Fuel youtube, whether potent longer pieces of tat together for you, But what's goin on their success I check out dakota meyer stuff, to hang on your wall. You gonna want them stuff on your wall books. Of course we got superpower in peril by Dave Mccormick. You heard some excerpts from today check that out and then, of course, I wrote a bunch of books to I wrote a bunch of books. Go checklist,
the kids, but, to be honest with you, you know like you, you can impact a child infinitely. My getting them these books. I know that because Gotten thousands of messages, emails, letters about that impact so, if you know any kids go right now to warrior kid. dot com. It is order all the books for these kids. You know and you'll help him off. we also national front, which is a leadership consultancy where we solve problems through leadership, go to echelon, front dot com. For that we have live events. We also have an online training academy, it exe im, ownership, dot com, where we help leaders from all walks of life in every level of leadership and we help them solve their problems. There's course You can take their lives sessions that you can join. That's we're doin extreme. worship, dot com and, if you
I help service members active and retired to help their families want to help gold star families check out, mark Lee's, mom mama Lee she's got a charity organization and if you I don't need, or you want to get involved glue, america's mighty warriors dot, org and don't forget about michael think MIKE. I think who right now is sitting beside the river that he just did a seven minute coldbath in now he's reheating his body on a fire that he started with a stick. That's what's happening right now, so check out. He rose and horses dot org. Once again. If you want to connect with day Mccormick Or instagram he's at Dave Mccormick p a. and he's also on the web dave mccormick, pierre doc. What movies run it again it sounded like he was leaning, yeah he's a guy. That's patriotic he's a guy that wants to help america. He doesn't have to run. I mean he's obviously in a position in his life where he can
duty wants, but he loves the country so that the type of person that stepping up so check him out and then, of course, it's on the interwebs echo and I are also there echoes echo Charles and I match aka, we'll just watch out when you go on there, because the algorithms going to try and grab you by your ankle and drag you down into the underworld of wasted time and wasted to beyond that. Once again, thanks day mccormick for joining us for sharing your lessons. Learned thanks your service to our great nation and all thanks to all military person, l out there right now who, on the phone lines as we speak, keeping evil at bay. We thank you all for standing. The watch and two are
police law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, he empties, dispatchers, correctional officer, border patrols, secret service in all first responders? Thank you for keeping evil at bay here at home, and everyone else out there. to everyone else out there. The world can be a dark place and you can read about it in you watch it on the news. There's a lot of bad things happening in the world you can focus on how bad it is, and you can surrender your mind to that darkness or you can decide to do something about it. Can decide to make it better and listen? Maybe you can't change the whole world me, but you can't change the whole world, but I guess aren t, you can change your world
can square your life away. You can get smarter. You can get stronger, you'd, give faster, healthier. You can get better you can help your friends, you can help your family. You can help your name right across the street. clean up your yard. You can repair that fence. You can replace
the light in the garage you can be better, you can make your world better and when you do that, you make the whole world better. So don't complain any more, don't surrender to the darkness instead go get to work and until next time this is echo and jocko out.
Transcript generated on 2023-06-08.