Ryan Holiday is the bestselling author of Trust Me, I’m Lying; The Obstacle Is the Way; Ego Is the Enemy; Conspiracy and other books about marketing, culture, and the human condition. His work has been translated into over 30 languages and has appeared everywhere from the New York Times to Fast Company. His company, Brass Check, has advised companies such as Google, TASER, and Complex, as well as multiplatinum musicians and some of the biggest authors in the world.
Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-contentThis is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is jocko podcast customer three? Ninety four with carry Helen and me jocker willing good evening carry good evening. Self discipline
The virtue of temperance is the ability to keep your ass in line
the ability to work hard to say no to practise good,
habits and set boundaries to train and to prepare to
nor temptations and provocations to keep your emotions in check to endure painful difficulties. Self discipline is giving you everything you have and knowing what to hold back,
Is there some contradiction in this? No only balance
Some things we resist some things we pursue in all
things we proceed with moderation intentionally reasonably without being consumed,
or carried away. Temperance is not. Deprivation,
command of oneself physically mentally, spiritually, demanding the best.
For one self and of oneself, even when no one is looking, even when allowed less.
It takes courage to live this way, not just because it hard, but because it sets you apart. Discipline then, is both per day
dave and deterministic it makes it more.
We will be successful and ensures success
or failure that whatever
since you are great.
The converse is also true. A lack of discipline. Put you in danger.
It also colors who and what you are and that right there is a little excerpt from a book called discipline. Is destiny,
I feel like I have to say that way. The power of self control written by a gentleman by the name of ryan holiday rhine holiday is
prolific author. I don't use that term lightly. He's upon
Yes or blogger, a marketer, a book
store order, an entrepreneur and a modern day follower of stoicism, and it's a pleasure to have
ryan here with us tonight to share his experiences,
and lessons learned along the way right thanks for journalists, yet it's been an inch
think right for you,
yeah
as I kind of pulled the thread on your life and what you ve done its. It is
interesting ride, to say the least.
actually advice someone gave me am I wanted to be a writer and they said: okay, writers live interest in lives, though the point being
You train you gotta. I was writer's workshop,
get really good at putting the words in the right order or you
go, do stuff in red about stuff and experience
and then you know right about that
and you don't have to be as good yeah. No, I would definitely say I guess, I'm a living proof of just go out and do some cool stuff and then write about it. You're you'd probably do okay
I would definitely recommend that course of action. Rather than going to a long schooling look and I went to school, I wasn't english major. Did I learned
of a yes, I absolutely did, but I would
much more recommend going out and getting after it go out and have adventures get into trouble, cause
issues cause. May him let
We may have in the world around you and he'll some exciting stuff. The right about here.
yeah, see people fuck up fog of yourself. You just just learn something about the human experience the commission like color the work they are doing there, because if you don't
yet you have to be way better. It's like it's like with music, like you can be the most technically brilliant person,
you can have some sort of
should all experience
that you are communicating and- and I think all the best music is that yeah for,
that's a whole thing for me. You know I was given
for that you can go to guitar centre anywhere.
Country, and put up a sign that says
hey, I'm looking for a guitarist that can play
all of led zeppelin, black sabbath and rush, which is
The most complex music there is rush and and you'll get
when he applicants that can legitimately do it and they all
jobs as waiters and construction workers, and then there's one
kid. That
is this a streak of chaos in his brain and what he's been through his life and he's got some emotional connection with the world or disconnection with the world that it comes out and there you go you're like oh jack. Why are you doing?
I mean envy mounts brilliant qatar player
Well, I don't know any the songs.
I mean I've seen him why those pretty cool, but again I don't know any of the science and theirs it there's a balance right there,
spectrum and you could see, can be technically brilliant. You can just have a lot to say. Ideally, you want
temper at the funny thing is temperance. The stoic virtue is.
also rendered a sort of moderation or balance if you want both rate in the middle, that you need a combination of the two I'm going to try not to do this all day, but I also wrote a book called the dichotomy of leadership and it's all about the balances of everything that you do in life. If your hate egos bad
No you go then you're just sitting around you know watching netflix and doing nothing.
and if you let your ego get our control august. We know it's prompter, so yeah, the the
give bounce how two percent, and that does include being a rock n roll guitarist over
you could take the sex pistols and you
probably say they were as bout as raw. I mean
the vicious on base. He basically learn how to play the base. You know
three shows before whatever and got up there and just hammered out that thing so they brought
Yeah yeah in an and just like, there's brilliant technical matters to read it so, but I think the best it's the cup you know that
You know the golden mean Aristotle's golden mean no to Aristotle,
golden mean is basically this argument,
right, he's saying that: ok, here's this courage so that the four virtues, courage, discipline, justice, wisdom is saying that courage actually illustrates the virtual
supply, because courage is not on one end of the spectrum currencies in the middle of the spectrum, there's recklessness and then cowardice on the ends of the spectrum and the virtue
you want to be is actually in the middle and pretty much
recent in life is like that. It's in its in the
that cause there's always in extreme version. That's too much the most people don't have the too much problem. They're, not
we're good at their thing. Most people are not good enough at their thing or don't have enough of the thing, but actually want that middle ground. So even two thousand years it got there late morning.
They're, ok, look it's about about for sure.
Right? So, let's go let's go through where how you ended up here today have how'd you get here today. Where were you born sacrament of california sack dough has sack town. Yet,
What did your parents to my dad was a police detective and then he worked
your dna and then my mom, a school principle, advice principle. So very
sort of blue collar, regular people, jobs as pretty much everyone in Sacramento is I've, been people think
a foreign is all this is its much more sacra it's much more sacramento than the other place
sacramento are sorry. California is first of all small bunch of agriculture.
massive. I called you drive outside of the big cities and you're just gonna run into fields and so yeah. It's you.
Blue collar state and there's just a few cities that
not very blue colored off yes, not of what they are, so your grown up years was your dad in the police forces whole his
greer, thousands and your mom same thing.
Teacher or life, and I became a principle some point and what were what were they
like growin, up dimly, regular people. You know just regularly
Did you did you?
eight here mom or dad from a perspective of like hey my dad's, a cop I may be a cop or my mom's, a teacher vince print principle homage to go
that direction. Now I would
I would say we were not on the same vibe like I've. An I got this.
that they were like sort of where this can come from. Sir. I have had the same sense with my per year might have in the exact opposite yeah,
I would have loved in english teacher in order like that,
that's? Who I was like? I was into that stuff.
also, I think I think I have said this before, but it was
hold on. You say you were into so my mom we're talkin before hit record that my mom was an english. Due to my dad was a history teacher
It's a huge treat. You just said: can parents get well it's weird, because people are like? Oh that's weird, you! That's all that's where you are the way you are and blah blah blah, but I was my
Well, look at me like: where did this child come from get? Why is the act like this? Where
where workers this genetic of
It fell apart. Some at some point in our lives
but you, you just said you're into it. So
you're talking you're in high school, and you are into literature, yes, books, ideas like
I wanted. I was like so excited to go to college because I was like that's going to be it and then you get to college and it's like here's a group project. It's not what you think it is, but what kind of music are you into heavy metal,
so they also they will accrue. Mrs kid what's come on wisest spend so much time is a computer in his room.
on his hair. How did you get into heavy metal?
ah was your gateway band. So
I got an iron me now I was trying to
illegally download a metallica album and I doubt
loaded, and I made about what is at issue.
This is like I love metallic maiden is like a different level, and I think for maybe my history person you're, like we d songs,
bout known him he'll like like, and then
go look up with those things worthiness. I just fell totally down this rabbit. Hove of heavy metal
that's right, ed,
so you're in a heavy metal you're reading books do you're, you're freaking we're at this
Wait. Yes, you're author anything, but I was weird worker yet
friends, we did you have friends your hanging out with you around
Also my parents like having a data cap, so you gotta play sports and I remember I went to we moved when I was in high school, and so I started this new high school and it's like. I want you to play football, and so I you know you go everyone's in this theater,
Of course, all these kids are put football, their whole lives. I've have not, and then the culture starts at school,
everyone was like? This is not me, and this is not what I want, and so I ran cross country interact with,
sounds like a running, a runner us very skinny runner kid who is always getting into trouble. You gonna get us pretty
but I was I was, I was afraid of actually try. I realise in retrospect legumes
pretty good, and I will do what I could do.
on my natural talent, but the idea of
I'm trying.
Clearly there is some part of me that was reluctant to do that,
because the same reason why a lot of people on try is that if you fail, then it's on you. So I was I I just master at like in retrospect cross frontier was insane. I don't know how it is any more but they'd be like you don't get to cross country practice, and then they will tell bunch of
Fourteen year old boys to go on a fifty minute run and come back, you know, and so we would
hence our and video games or food stuff and then throw off bridges in a we just. Do we just do what
We want it, you know so I was I was that comic, yeah
there's a whole business
culture, I guess I'm just doing stuff and thrown off of bridges for fourteen year old boys, I mean that's the best. You know if you
well computer, monitor abridged implodes. You know, just like you just find stuff, that's
you know those little scooters
schoolers in a bunch, well,
an order was colonel. You haven't you in texas, radio,
do they have not yes, unfortunately, when they originally brought him here to san diego
just every time they would put em out people just destroyed beverages, throw them off a bridges, throw them off
the cliffs just destroy him, and
I remember reading some article about it and- and I guess the for one of the first places they did. It was in holland or something- and I said man that of the dutch people seem super nice and chill and they were like, oh great elector,
cars. Scooters that we can ride around and americans are like cool shit. We can break the fourteen year olds in america. We're like no we're not having this. So that's what happened. I I definitely get the impulse to not just say that I like throwing stuff off bridges but like
in Austin there's this trail around town, like you know, really cool trail, which is ass at sight.
one of the best running chosen, the country and people
they're not allowed on this trail, but not only will be
take them on the japanese, just pork them in the middle of the trail. So every time I see them, I want to throw them off something I've
I've conquered that impulse butter
We all see one in the water and get you give a nod,
it has a job, the fourteen urals out there. We salute yes exactly
so you get good grades. I was ok,
again, I think, they're right. When I look at my high school experience, I see it defined
you know like seventy percent of
potential, like when I hear kids ones like harvard
the naval academy, I'm always
blown away because, like they got
serious and good like way before
Hi was, I cared their unanimous
or their parents, got serious with short sharp with some short
like if you yeah, and then they programme and correctly or theirs,
into it, which is also true, yes, definitely, but, but that just like to be in
way close to like a high level of performance at sixteen yorkists is is incomprehensible to you. You were not there now
It was not there. I was well. First of all, I just knew I was going to the military, so everything else just seemed like a big joke to me, because I'm an idiot. Why would I have to do schoolwork
doesn't make any sense, but on the matter,
So did you have some kind of a plan, some kind of a vision of what you're going to do?
I knew I wanted to sack sacramento. I don't think I met a single person who did not have a job
and I knew I wanted to be a person that did not have a job like I like that. I don't want to work, but I didn't want to lake. I didn't want to have
I want to be a person who did like the stuff that they wanted to do, and so there
Had this vague sense that southern California was a place where stuff like that happened,
I know what you mean like movies or music or writing or whatever so so job to you meant, like nine to five job you're working for the man. Yes, you have a
you, have a salary. You are not in control of your life and you didn't like that idea. I didn't like that idea.
know exactly what I wanted to, and I wasn't. I wasn't even sure
and wasn't until I went to college I went to riverside and, like you meet college professors and they ve written book.
Some papers and their works, but you like of this is like people do like. I remember
We have this seminar my before
I started my freshman year of as like a summer thing that I did, and there was a novelist. Her name is Susan straight I've gotten to know since, but she like, we all had to read this professor's novel that had one like some.
price and it was like all. This is just like a regular lady that road,
an answer. That was the first thing for me. Where I met.
someone who did a thing and unsafe up my people do this. You know my regular people do stuff like that. You don't have to
This is in no way just made. It suddenly became much more accessible. I had a
similar thing where I was a little kid running around the woods using sticks as machine guns and then at some point I realized you can actually have. That is a job
I said to myself. I'm set good do this for a living, and then I met or autumn a guy who is a marine, cordial instructor who is like the older brother of a friend of mine, and it was the same thing like up cackle. This is a real thing. Yet, where do I sign up for this gig
go make this happen. We know this, you know what a neko baby is not and never baby is like an actor whose kid becomes an actor all like it.
You're talking about how many people that are famous you realize actually had like famous or
of the apparent and so is kind of in this backlash against deputies, but I dont think like stuff. Curry is not great cause. His
I was in the nba an achievement
their advantage. I think it was partly genetics, partly
access to the best teachers and teams whenever, but also he sighs dad go to work
had a basketball arena and that.
is any sought at an early age. So she had a head start
in believing that stuff was possible, that's utterly in impossible to regular
People do not mean later you realize just just like. I
probably more likely to have been a police officer or scorpion cause. I saw my parents, do it, it's not that they they would have opened
where's that would made this thing easier. It's just like that
I would have seen that as though you know like the family
that's what we're doing yes, a sort of like the path of reform, but the hollywood thing is different, though right,
I'm pretty sure, because they're getting gigs when their their parents are, you know talker,
the rector being like yo get my
in there. That's gotta be happen, I'm sure that's part of it, but if you can't deliver it you're not getting more of them right. I think that's true. I think
yeah, sure Tom hanks. Kid is in band of brothers, shrieked colin hankses in band of, but you can also footing
act, and so, but I think it's
you see someone being in a profession. You see someone being a professional at a thing that, as a fan, you don't understand as being a craft muted.
like when you're watching the movie you're seeing the theme you get lost in the world? You don't see that, as you don't see the process that goes into it, but when you do see the process, I think it'd be it's diminish,
defied in a way that gives you an advantage
and occasionally you see someone, that's not a good actor and they look bad
go. That's only time you realize maybe it's a little harder than it looks good
watch is not to be. The brok got their dude out. What's up right, do you? Do you not think that
You watch a movie. Will maybe you understand the craft a little bit more
people. They just look at that. Like oh I'll, go up there and give me the words to say I'll, say and will be good. Let's go give me my money where maybe you also see people who are bad? Who are successful, and you know I'm better than that person. I can do that.
Yeah? You don't think you meet someone who's. That's the other thing like if you're a kid you never met someone that graduated from harvard. You think it's like this
I called words or something many really dumb person whose graduated from harvard and you're like up this is
is only later in life. You go. Oh, it's not like unattainable, it could have happened deserve these are still regular. There's a priest.
as you figure it out so you're in high school. Your vision is, I'm going to not have a job, I'm going to do something cool on my own boss, type thing, but you're not even sure what it is
when you apply to riverside, u c riverside yeah, I wanted to go to santa Barbara, but then my high school girlfriend went to riverside, so I made a brilliant choice now I think about it.
all this, I met my wife, it riverside. So it's it's it's all right. I have no regrets, but I think in again
Your high school and I don't want to get a tunnel in the inland empire of an island. Mr andor, did you visit,
in a barber several times
as I places who raise its unrest, beats absolutely insane at unreal
these have all the best land and california, but then you just went to riverside like yeah. That's exactly see
go up there? Would you gonna study what he started up? One of the sides.
because that was the first ballot. I rarely, but I wouldn't politics I like. I think I wanted to be like a political right, her something like that. But here you don't know.
It's crazy to that. You can join the military at eighteen, they're, so fucking, dumb yeah, your brain, I mean what your brain doesn't develop to your twenty five. Yet so, when you're, seventeen and you're signing the paper you're just like yo, let's go yeah
So then what happened to you may go there for like a year. Right is a right for two years to you yet
and that's when I met
I became a research assistant for this guy robber, green, whose like one of the greatest authors of all time, and then how did you hook up with him? I was right.
This other other, and he ran roberts website, and I was the super it like this
Blogging is just coming out what years us this is of six five or six. So I was,
was? I was very into this I'd this world
suddenly, because of the internet
in this sort of new york. Kick keeping media lives like a few made cool stuff. People could find it. Thou hast thou has just happened in that. I think you tube sold and talents.
Six or seven, so this is like when they serve
internet quarter is just half an hour,
Can, through your blogs, your first bloggers, two thousand seven, that's right! That's power,
I think I may have had another one.
And another one, then I started right after I graduated high school, which is too oh five, so I've been
Looking around for half a year, something like that ok
so used are workin for Robert green yeah. This is
you don't college. This is, while I'm still in college. Where does he
If you live in l, a or something he lives in l a he lives
here's to remote work before remote work was a thing I was transcribe well so so, basically he will. He needed a research assistant and then I'd spent that some of the summer after my sophomore year I was I was this system. The talent agency were aimed at this movie producer and us was go back and he was like em like what, if you just didn't, go back
and roused that this way this is that the at the talent agency I hear he was, I would have you
he's like I need a new assistant. Would you like to be my assistant.
and thou against. The felt the hollywood system is is deranged. You start by answering people's phones, and
running their calendar and that's how you supposedly learn how to be like a producer or talent manager, but says word for this person
and so I was on he was. I am happy to tell a manager, shrimps, interesting cool,
and then has wherever robert and robert was just
in this book and he needed like a research assistant like that he would pay, and so
For me, it was like I'm going to go back to school to hopefully grand
wait. I think that was going to graduate in three years, but I was I was like. Am I going to spend another year or a year and a half in school to hope like I was,
leaving if I grant, if I graduated, and these with it
New job offers that I have, I would have liked college was a huge success.
And so for me, it was like I'm going to go back and just read about this stuff happening, or am I going to do it and I did it and
so you became a full time. Research assistant for rob
the green, and what was he working on forty eight laws of power now the forty dollars a pair came out in like ninety eight. I think this was. He was doing a book called the fiftieth fly with fifty cent, and I had to trim. My first thing was I to transcribe, like thirty hours of interviews between robert green and fifty cent, which was a surreal like super cool. It was, you know it was a super cool, haven't.
in the other direction. I heard that and I was like gosh that's terrible you're, like super cool. I was like this is well for me. It was like this is hell until it happens, yeah
How you do the thing this is the craft of its like,
I was seeing it start with the raw materials, and then I've watched, like my favorite author, make a book from start to finish, and so that was I mean you couldn't you can pay.
class like you and it's. We I'm sitting here thinking about that, so our books too, and the books are in my head.
don't mean which is which is kind of, I guess different in away. Then like a robber, green book, where he's working with fifty cent and doing thirty hours worth of interviews and extracting the
information from that. That's like a different process. It's almost like I'm cooking steak and rob
green is cooking of seven course meal and there's a lot more. That goes into it. I think,
I mean your books. Are you? What are you thinking and then his books and like mine are researched
So it's what you know. What is what is the scope of history? Say it's a I
You to tell a story from my life to illustrate this point and the word.
it is not only my first book does the word.
I really ever appear so I'm I'm
I'm the I'm painting a picture in so I have to go find
and this. What I learned from Robert is how you can find the stuff,
Yeah, because if someone watched me write a book, they would get nothing out of it. They to sit over my shoulder and watch me type. You know what I mean like that, wouldn't be they wouldn't get it but
process that you're talking about is actually a process that you could take. If you're gonna write that type a book,
yeah, like I learned his his research system. I learned
I mean they would still learn a lot watch em you you work just like that.
When of doing it, and then all the the editing, the cross
all the decisions that you make along the way. I learned a lot there too, but it was really like. First up, it was just it was like
it was I going to college because he was like. I had to read all the books if he didn't
Read more, I read that he be like, I think, there's something in this person's life story, and so I have to go. Read ten books about Joe louis
they like that, and then I'd have to present to him what I thought he
We needed to know about that person to use for the story that he wanted to tell you tat.
it's very cool and he really must have seen something in you, because I, when I read a book like, for instance, I I cover a lot of books on the podcast. I
I've tried to like c o someone give me an assessment of this book and I and I can't get him. I can barely get anything out of it, so he must
have had a huge amount of trust in you to be giving you that much weight
of hey, look at this and tell me why?
it's cool about it. Basically,
I think so I mean he's smart about it. So it's like he's doing ninety five percent of it, the right and so I'm.
in pursuing the things that he's pretty sure are going to be a dead end. So it's like if I find something it's extra or if I don't find something it at least he he could at least trust me enough.
To eliminate something: hey there's, not
story about andrew carnegie that work for this book or whatever.
It started. I mean I, it started just transcribing interviews, which was in a now. You can have a I do that for you, but it took a long
time, when you read in those books for him, are you just gone
the high lighter and pulling out a set of notes and given the high points and whenever you thought was,
interesting yeah. So, like I would read the book, I would fold and mark everything that was interesting and then I would give the book. I would write up a report about it and the
give him the book. The copy that I read and then he would see she would serve spot check it and then, if something
if you found something interesting when he would go, do more research,
it was. It was more just like a
partly in the way that you would have some give you an intelligence report later here, the thing
Can you should now and then that that's lighting up your
sort of intuition for what'll what to write off
or look more into order ask for follow ups and
if it is really just do it was
an apprenticeship in how to do the thing that I knew that I ultimately wanted to do
So you knew that you want to be an offer at something
import it's under a figure it out. I want to be an offer. Yeah yeah right, but I want to write books like his books.
ok, so come on. You do in this job, for
the nice thing about doing this,
I could do it on the site, but I mean probably six seven years.
My six or seven years, you were doing stuff doing it even through my first books coming out,
at some point he he like he was like you have to stop
like that. I don't want to me. It was like I remember,
we go? I robert we go
summary. You need to send me. Your ours. Have your gay assured.
no. You need to send me your at like
to me, the idea that I was also getting paid for it was so like beside the point
to me, it was like I could call robert and asking questions rather like how does how does this happen like whom it
this. I remember once how has the index work like? What is that
Do you have to do that? You know I was just so. The whole process is
even when you said when you soldier first, but it's not like that.
told you how it works. They were just like here's, some money, please come back with me.
You ve, never done before that
almost no one knows how to do and by what you don't get.
the rest of the money. Unless must we accept it? So it's is italy when I sat down to write my first book at a huge advantage, because I was like I was it. I wasn't like groping around in there
I didn't know if I could, if I had an idea or the talent pull it
but I knew I could I knew I could
at the end of the process. I didn't know if it would sell, but I knew I could
they had no doubt in my mind. I can do it because I had seen it happen.
so then, as you're doing this, when did you kind of branch off and start sort of the marketing thing?
so there is a right. Am I making the right statement? There is at some point you. You started a marketing
when he he have some kind of satellite. So I was, I was working with his talent agency and it was cool. I was working all these different artists,
A man
when sideways there and how long
if you can't dislike, come on the podcast. If just say a big chunk of your life with sideways nyc area was a surreal experience. So I was just his talent agency. Is a talented, went sideways yeah the the talent agency
I my position. Airlines are so too so two things happens to first up, I drop out of college to to work for this guy, like the thing
well, the with Robert was not like the thing you drop out of college
It was this discharge hostile to your parents. I dropped out of college
they disowned- is terrible right there. Let's there really. What are you
Are you in the same yeah
and even though like when I went the funny thing is, I was just actually back there and cause I was. I spoke it to the seventh regiment in twenty nine palms. So I fluid alex and I drove through
and I started riverside and I went for a run and I ran violet the building when I dropped out of,
and I remember- and I think it is worth pointing out people who, because before
make a life changing decision. You think you were literally holding your life in your hands.
For that right, it's never as scary as you think it is going to be remember. I walked in it's. I think it's called hinder hecker hall and I was like you know, I'm sure- to drop out
college like I'd. Only to my parents did, they were like you know. Come me off had already too.
Girlfriends pact, like it, was this this terrible
I was so scared,
and I go, and I might come here, you drop out of college and they go Y know don't like that. There's no like
not a thing? What do you entirely fill this form? You pay forty dollars
and you just put you're like your.
Economic status on hold you take a semester off and then there
If you want to come back at the end of this message is thought this form and if you don't it just tolls for ten years
like I spent all these nights. Thinking like I was like literally jumping off of a cliff and like it was literally
Forty dollar form that I
undue at any minute and did so scary, but you don't know until you do and by the way most of life decisions are like that, yet there's a very few decisions in life that are acts even if you're, a big ones,
house
Even if you buy a house even when you do like
worst case scenario. Gosh we didn't sell the house. Yes and you look, you look. You lost some money and it's going to take all the money you're going to lose
Suddenly you don't mean, like you're, like I spent three hundred dollars
doubt. Is that all the money you haven't the world it doesnt become worse,
That is a mistake. You sell the house you for ten percent. Less. You sell your agent gets the three percent other, just three percent going to go. You can carry on yes, there's very few decisions that are that that debt are per
very few guess so
This is a great example of one you're. Like a drop.
Because I call fathers formed capacity and in a semester to they. You know whenever somebody does decide to drop out of college. There is going on
this form and was the eunuch semester no big deal, you can't go to
up or whatever it is. You gonna do with your whatever.
And I remember I told the boss that I was dropping out to work for I was like you know. I don't know if I will find one.
Bet with my wife on this and he just when I was in college.
I got motto or some such use. I
Spent a year in the hospital is acting
we times. This is come up in my life since this euro zero times I spent it took five years instead of for its he's, a give, it does
work out, it won't work out, but so
I drive back to riverside. I do all the stuff he gives me a week to, like you know, get out of my apartment package, find a new apartment and do all this stuff
and then I show up at the talent agency and he's not there and
his old assistant is still there like the person she whispered
let go is still there. She is
no idea why I'm there and none of his none of his is partners. The business know ways there there like to sit here and they serve call me in hand
they're like so aaron's in rehab.
and each he checked into rehab
be unavailable for the next forty five days
and the salary that we negotiated was they were not an agreement. So so, basically I thought so
relief of like our not belong up my life and then I got there and I was like
I did in my life- and this is a terrible mistake, so that doubt that was one
and then what happened was. I was working for robert, so I always had the forty eight laws of power on my desk and I would read it cause. I was researching fine
and one of the other partners became, convinced that I was like
plodding or that I was untrustworthy because I was
protegee of robert green, and so we we invited heads in there is. There is a big mr spectacular, but up where I was, I was ass ice torn down.
slash, was asked to leave, and then I was I was
you don't seem like a storm out asked to leave type a person. I
I thought this was a weird. This is a weird thing. He he comes in he's sort of like an ari gold type. You from entourage like that flashy and that the my
and asked me to listen it. He was like listen into this phone call and it was like. I want you to message me like information that I need to use. That's what I was doing, but you know, like the conference call say, like five people listening or whatever there
We finally want to cover their six, I'm listening and the boss goes like
who's there in others. There, like mighty inside, didn't, say anything I was like. I refer fact himself. There's pretend that I wasn't.
call it makes you feel like finds out, I'm I'm on the core issues.
Storms and unlike sitting like storms in and eyes,
fuckin knew it was you in he said: you've fuck fucking have all these suspicions that he had about it. Now. If I wanted to be honest, dumb call and out he
start slamming the door. Just like old, like you,
during slams. It opens its like you just like trying to like physically intimidate like this kid, so I just got up and left, and that was it
How was it knows it for the town, a challenge that was that was the end of my career as a as a future talent agent.
and so now, you're, just with Robert green well
a ride around that time, robbers and the board of directors of american peril of fascism, and he had he was his search, strategic advisor to the ceo, and so I met dove
then and dove had been asking me to come work for him as like sort of an advisor person and so
What's he doing ask a nineteen year old, friggin college drop out there just got fired
none of it cannot have indeed already had made, but always do, and where would what? What? What sort of
were you given off that you were given this site title offer? I don't know. I think I think this is you know you know if any on person, my people think they know how computers work,
and so I think he he thought that I understood says something about the internet and online,
what you're all this stuff. That was a big deal with which I make sense them, and so I like it, I didn't even have like a title or a badge. I was just like. I reported only to this person and that's a star
What year was that of? Seven ok
seventeen o seven away, so you had already had like a blog. You had already in here
able to like look dad and Jim in this is when blogger, that that was just like you, european, a yes, and that
was enough to have him say all right. You come and work in a mixed when I was in two thousand and seven he had just gone public. It was like the hottest fashion coming
the world and
but it was also a mess because he hired in a random,
you're onto the streets like like a chaotic places are good, is if you they're good, but then there also
only there also bad or you wouldn't. You have an opera
they're burning and
burn out given to explode there,
all tile burger you're, making a lot of heat, but they're gonna turn explode yet
and so
very soon after, like you know, he was like hey, take care of this like this project and then take care of this project this project, and then you mean example of like where you're taking care of, I think we're spending too much money on online advertising. To tell me if that's true or not riot- or
I white people
people. I know about this that we're doing find someone online to write about that. So dealing these little things.
and then I ended up sorted, doing kind of an overhaul of it's me
can stuff.
And then he ended up. It was like
I did what you said. You know who do you want to run it, and then he was a view and so ended up running
marketing as busily
marketing in america fell like twenty one, twenty two and what you
so now its two thousand and nine the sunlight that dude
I miss so I was in the motor him institutionalized human that's just been, and very large
since my life, I've no
dear what was happening in the normal world and I completely mistress
all american apparel thing and
dimension, my
fashion, my connection to the fashion and even have called the company right now. My connection, the fashion industry, is next to nothing. So I missed
this whole american apparel thing. I don't know anything about it,
and I started looking at it and it's kind of
I'll do it was wild? I went and looked at all the ads. Are these controvert there there their amazing adds they're they're, making ads and totally
controversial borderline border,
an extremely controversial,
it's so that was you run nada?
I mean dove of his genius and all
was him and he iq. He did everything
right. So we have this idea that the leader should do everything and he did do everything. There's a sort of singular genius like he was the fit model. He was the designer. He was the photographer
he was the ceo he he could. So.
You could do everything, but as the company that big
bigger, he lacked the ability
out to delegate mere genius, can only get you so far, but
was I mean it's totally insane idea that he threw
sheer brilliance managed to pull off him in at one point, had tuner fifty or sixty stores and twenty countries,
revenues almost a billion dollars
was the largest garment mania.
from the united states, when, especially, then the idea that you could still
closing the united states was as close to blasphemy.
because you could possibly get it and, like I remember the reason I work their item,
the shit about fashion. I was like a kid like books, you he was like come meet me at the factory and so
go to the factory and he's like follow me. I want to show you something, and so I'm fallen through a factory like on the fourth floor. It it it. It was it's right
in alameda and the ten
therein downtown I miss old hundred, plus euro building and so
walking the floor and as he's walking the floor, these sewing teams
which were like korean and mexican and all every race to possibly imagine but garment workers who are making fifteen
twenty bucks, an hour which is less say there, that they are highly skilled there, the best in the world at what they do, they're getting
up in their cheer they're, giving him with a standing ovation as he walks the floors factory, and it's not like a cult of personality thing. It's
when we were working in sweat shops. The alternative was literal sweatshops, and here they have health pike. He built all that from the ground up when it was not so
it'll be possible and I'm sure you figured it out with apparel to like what what he figured out. That is so interesting and I'm fascinated by it still is like so gap makes a t shirt for
forty cents, and then they saw myself for forty dollars or whatever right. She was.
Where is the money go?
You don't mean like, like you could. If you,
the workers set of forty
in an hour you're paying them for it
knowledge in our that's, only
in the cost of making the garment by like a dollar or to either way the problem? Is that the most fashion?
These are a race to the bottom as far as price goes
but if you make some cool the people want. Were there not price conscious? Suddenly all the ethical compromises
I remember he said what is out of your mind: swimsuit for eight dollars, his ex somebody got fuck
write his point was like who, who are you exploiting to get this thing at the price?
consumers are well, so he you know,
interpro procedure was twenty two bucks in two thousand seven, which seem like a lot of money.
It also allowed the company to do cool shit, and so I was really fascinated by that.
if the whole story is also a kind of a breaking bad arc where this guy, who had this moral purpose and genius all ends up imploding? That's what my my book on ego is sort of inform. My
Also, I watched the rise and fall of that company, but it was just had never seen anything.
Yeah. I know it's been awesome. You know we have five four hundred and fifty right now people sewing and in again
I just had a conversation with some are about to see the day by day
Your of automation, you can't automate sewing white cloth, is to particular
two unique every little piece of cloth, a little different differently or human has to do it. They're not going have a robot that can so for a long long long time, even with all the advances that are making right now. So it's got
humans, gotta be people may not have skill may get in there and they. This is,
I we really
demonized factory work in america and
when the reality as winners, people that enjoy working with their hands. They like it and stuff down they like to see what they have produced at the end of the day it
very rewarding, and it's a good job and it's a career job, so it
an awesome. Two parties
the paid in that in and growth
was companies and be able
Do what you're talking about and pay
people what they should be paid and then, on top of all that the
The environmental stuff like
I see a lot of companies that are out there that I believe there's a term for
green washing of you have this month yet where they say, oh well, we give this much money to the environment, but they still make
close in a country which is basically any country but America, where we can
dump all of the left over chemicals right into the ocean. They go out the smokestack in it just totally destroyed the environment. So it's it's abuse
for the workers. It's too,
both for the environment and yet we going to get a little money to the to the environmental causes Georgiana caught in the act and its total bullshit. So
we are fighting against that and that's why I really when I, when I was reading about american apparel and what it did. It was very interesting for me to read in india, certainly for
for him to be able to pull that off. It's been
for us to pull it off and we ve done it. Yet we ve been able to pull it off
where it continues to grow and get bigger and better, but up it's a very
fascinating story and definitely parallels a lot of what we're doing without the
We just have a little bit of a disc a little bit more of a disconnection from, I would say,
like the high fashion type thing,
We are more made
stream normal human clothing, but as that, that's a couple things. He figured out. I'm too first up his vertically integrate
so like the he needed their own. He needed the fabric cut, it died it so do we
and then ran his own stores
so he realized that where we
is the money going if it's so cheap to make it's all. The middle men are cut, cut, cut, which I, which I thought was really interesting, and then his other thing was ok bike. Do you remember a couple of years ago there's a controversy where, like the ceo of abercrombie and fitch, the abercrombie and fitch stores, when they would
wouldn't sell. They would kite it up and throw it in the garbage closer and knowing. Why could you do that, while it's because the stuff is actually worthless
right if it doesnt cell in the sale cycle its worthless and it actually cost more to ship
back to some warehouse and store it whereby the way becomes less valuable every day because it's not like,
In unless they hold over thirty years and fashioned never coming back and you're paying distort yes
storage, which may not seem like a big deal, but it's a big deal yet
specially for doing millions of peace. It's right. So what does figured out was hey if you make stuff
doesn't go out of stock, classics or basics, and you dont venture,
into shit. That is trendy you bypass. All of that. So you know. If you don't sell this blue teacher in march,
you're all sell it in April or may and
and so he key on for the first sound like
eight of the company. Why it was so huge is that he sold not just the stuff that that people always wanted but stuff that evergreen evergreen
and if you go. Oh, I wore out this teacher. I'm gonna go get another one, not
and you knew they had the stuff you want. So when you make sure that its perennial than timeless you
who are not in this cycle of of serve plan
the lessons which is, which is not only exploitative too
customer. It's also really hard because you have to be so right
right, I can't give you resemble for for daily stoic, like
a calendar, vert like a page a day calendar, and so when I first did it, it was, you know,
january for Monday january, first rate and then
thinking about something, I learned from dove, which it, if I just don't put the day,
on the count. If I just make it a january first calendar, I dont have to guess,
many to make each year and I can make it better and
cheaper and in a less exploitative way, cause it's perennial right, and so, if you think of, if, if, if you just take
You start from not wanting to fuck people over and not see yourself as a predictor of the future.
You have such a wider target need to make better decisions like people.
we are going to want this. They always won t shirts and so
an underwear and whatever, and then it was even though
like. If you made a weird, you made a pink teacher people than like it,
because he and his own dived, he could send the teacher back and diet different color, so
It was a brilliant fan that could
today a shoe
lee valuable company but in canada, destroying had no. What was that
instruction how the destruction to play a huge me to part of it, which is just a collapse of ethics in and discipline. You know you could have relationships with
ploys, even though over and over and over again gives this
Not only is it not? Okay like it's,
exposes the company to all sorts of legal liability and lawsuits and ultimately, but but the big thing was, I see this all the time in life, so american barrels is hot, huge company, but at urban outfitters forever, twenty one. There were these other fast fashion, companies that were growing faster, that were getting more media attention and he started trying to copy them. So, like american apparel had twenty five stores in new york city cause, there were basics,
each of has to end their big flagship store, so therein totally different business models, but what people do as they try to have
your model and do it. Somebody else is doing, and so he started trying to compete.
with people who were running totally different races and
and in the idea of only selling classic stuff. So he would try to ride waves of trends, so she would make something
and then it wouldn't cell,
then he started choke.
Slowly on the inventory. But the big mistake was making a teacher choirs eight sellers, making a button up
this forty sellers, and so not only was he switching towards pieces. Thou were less profitable and less perennial, but they would take the team
off the core efficiency. So it's I mean it's a really timeless business stories like you, you
drift out of your lane and then new crash, and then that
What it was I was down. There was a huge part of it and then it was lawsuit after lasted until the banks would lend on it and then just
spiraled into I've robots and when my books, but he was also like no discipline- is personal life, so
I never slept. He would call me at three in the morning just to talk about stuff it'd be like three at three in the morning. His time like he would just call he was. He was
a work, a holiday, no boundaries, and I think he kind of worked himself almost into like a psychosis lake
just like a like a howard, hughes, kind of state where you're not on this planet anymore?
woodwind when you would meet with him the needless another people will you
You take your ideas, we say: oh yeah, that's a good idea, which would someone pushed back on and off
or was the type of person I've known people like this that are so convincing and so persuasive that even when they're wrong, they went every argument. It was exactly.
I remember one time he called a bunch of likely executives into the office and it was like a three hour meeting like
we are meeting where he talked the whole time. I remember
I was leaving and and one of the creative directors who is brilliant and she'd, been there like from the beginning. What was that?
you know cause I'm like twenty. I haven't seen him and she does. The cinema dove is it dove wants to be heard,
a little bit more than he wants to be successful, and it was like, oh
he. He he's a performer at the end, like he's
at the end of the day he wants
to vent
and be listened to and goes through the new note. He keep
was like in this sort of manic rats. Basically an and you sit like there's lots of bridges that a president do liked to do that ray.
Like a nice here to learn what I need to learn complex. What I need accomplish delegate what needs to be delegated its. I need air. My
personal grievances. My theories about the universe in its it. It is a very it's. It's both toxic leadership, trade, but also in intoxicating,
should create, and what you what I saw happen,
clear to me in retrospect, as they would like. The investors Robert was on the board, what
to be like we're bringing in this new person this, like this persons from apple this person from this company, and they would make it like three months
and then leave and then, when I realized was happening again
to me. This is like how business worked
my guide on learn so many habits. This is normal. It's like if your parents scream
each other all the time. You're like isn't this? What everyone pits parents you, but I realized they would show up and go up
way. This is gonna six. They knew that this was not how it was done, and so they would leave, and so what the interesting
in about egotism were craziness leaders is not just that they make bad decisions, but they also repel people who make good to say
and because they go, I'm not gonna, be heard. This is
functional life.
too short. You know they want no part of it, and so it was this kind of constant shedding of
I wanted operators that are desperately needed around him and also with
I was like crazy people crazy p.
Or wildly and qualify for which I was in retrospect. Obviously one so
What what year does it cut? Him fall apart, this ain't it
Oh be k like what happened to the end, so I wrote my first book into hasn't twelve, so like I,
stayed on an was like
adviser like a sort of consultant
I stayed until two thousand fourteen and it it was
in pressure on one point: he's sort locks himself into this this
facility in la Murat. I was like a distribution facility like he moves in their like. He has a shower installed and we often cities like sleeping mare on this
and he's going in this. Is him trying to salvage? What's going on in trying to? If I work harder, it was like
This is why sleep so important. He makes
bad impulsive decision that reflect,
in and in it
as the council would have warned him against and then, instead of
backing up and going shit. I shouldn't have done that he forces
and then he cycle, I'm in a safe. They I'm in a move in the facility,
brings every three broad everyone there is. Another factor is downtown
Brings everyone there now commuting de la Murat and he's like you. Just has its basically break with realities losing his mind: the stock prices.
like seventy cents and
eggs won't land cause he's been sued over and over again and the border give it the boar, like a board of directors.
People ass like how did so and so get away with it. Isn't your winning people will let you get away with pretty much everything and then, when it,
all the defer its like all the deferred maintenance comes to, and so the board started to
a sense of what was happening and then, if it came to him, was enough
There are like look, you ve run the company into the ground, but you also built this brilliant thing. They can't
you know, exists without you
and then there were like clears the deal. You can result
and as and stay on as creative advisor,
a million dollars a year and you'll keep all your shares. Or this is the press release
we are putting out right now about you being fired for cars, and he does I mean, like think about it, for a minute. He walks out comes back in his eye
Your number three fuck, all of you, like I wolf of
just wait up I'm alive at an end. He knows I hear he
sure this hedge fund, that he is of course innocent
everything he's ever been accused of that he has been unfairly thrown out.
he pledges them as collateral. All of his shares
and says I can. You should initiate a hostile takeover stretch
drives accompanying the bankruptcy. I came back after he left to hopefully like turn things around at the request of the
word, which was at grant. I was supposed to be. Writing egos the enemy as this is happening, so it was like the greatest ringside seat. You could have possibly imagined, and you know he's basically trying he's trying to jockey the thin and it's like he must have. I in retrospect, I think about it. So much it's like: not only did he knew where the body
were buried, people like me also knew where the bodies are buried, because we were there when things happened like the
dear, that he was going to be vindicated in this process, was delusional
and you know he ends up on the ends up dry,
we get into bankruptcy, has basically choice
said to death on legal fees goes into bankruptcy, his years become worthless. He's not clear
in the investigation by the hedge fund, so they confiscate,
the the shares, the remaining equity and he and
owing them twenty million dollars. So he goes it shares.
For one point worth something like five hundred or six hundred million dollars
and he ends up negative.
Twenty million dollars
and just recently he was he is now in business with kenya west.
He is running kenya. West's fashion got like so it's
So far, he's now in, like the only person in the world that will do business with a notorious anti semite and dove is jewish. So it's it's just egos.
You download law of gravity.
so trust me, I'm not
In confessions of a media manipur
later limited
took the book, the euro into
twelve. You see this
my full time. Job then, was director of marketing for american apparel holding company known for its provocative imagery and unconventional business practices, and I would go on to found my own marketing company brass check, which had orkut
great stance and marketing trickery for other hype,
fire profile.
science from authors, who so means of books to entrepreneurs word for hundreds of millions of dollars. I cried
and shape the news for them. You
We too simple, hustle, someone pays me, I manufacturer story for them and we trade it up the chain from attacks
blog to a website of a local news network to read it to the Huffington
as to the major newspaper to cable news and back again until the unreal
comes real, sometimes
or by planting a story so
times I put out a pressure
yes or ask a friend to break a story on their blog.
Times I leak a document. Sometimes I fabricated document and leak that really
anything from vandalized wikipedia page to producing an expensive viral video. However, the
starts the end, is the same. The economics of the internet are exploited to change.
Like perception and sell product. Now,
hardly a wide eyed kid. When I entered this world, I grew up on line and I knew that in every community there were trolls and tricksters. Like many people, I remained a believer. I thought the web was
meritocracy and that the goods,
generally rose to the top, but
bending serious time in the media underworld watching as the same outlets who fell for easy marketing stunts seriously report on matters of policy or culture will disappear.
You have that not every it will turn
that hope into cynicism though I wish I could
point the moment it fell. Apart
when I realized that the whole thing was a giant com. I can't online,
was that eventually I did its ultimately, what for
We on the path to write this book, so
as you are doing all this, so that's it
The crazy thing to read must be when you, when you, when I read that right now, you can like
its I've relationship with that book for sure
as your sort of a grown man who talks
about stoicism in telling the truth in this thing is, like you were a propagandist to make money for savages yeah
an end to to do that. You become a savage yeah. It was weird it was.
it. The whole thing seems like a fever dream. It can have that blogger tone to a little but you're writing style on that one you know, can I still feel
like that blogger. There get now like a little admission of what's going on behind the scenes yeah
Why am I mean? I would have liked to have read that book, but no one had written. So I was like you know what I think I am
I knew what I wanted to write about, but I also felt like I had this unique perspective on this
Let it happen outside I'll right about that. First.
When you look at media and when you look at advertising now, is it all just grow steel? What's funny
I remember I was writing a book. So his writing.
In two thousand and eleven-
and I remember telling my published this has to come out right now.
like this is all going to be old news like if his the soon and then
equally, it was like ten years early. You know like all
things are tongue, meddler book are
really what we see in
complaining about today re like the idea of fake news or missing
information or disinformation all like
A big chunk of what I'm talking about is like what foreign actors do now and how they are likely found, for instance, in the in the two thousand and sixteen election, and with with others like russia will create like fake.
Spock groups get people around certain ideas and in those facebook group so get written about her. I was talking about that shit then, which you could do.
promoting a movie or of
fashion, launch order yet, like you think what american apparel would do, give an example
we noticed like whenever we would do a controversial ad.
Dad, I'm there would get written about till we get publicity friend.
the new act, which is like your dream, come together, so
I remember this one guy. He he hee she was making fake american apparel out like he would. She would put them up
and then people would talk about how american parallel new outcome, or was it real or not
and I realize oh, no one's even checking great and
Then it turned out wasn't even real like he would. He was making these in real life. Few issues photo shopping them onto buildings, and then he would like posts that he will
put them on social media than what it would write about.
and so I we could do that.
Why are we as if, if an american
Harold add is newsworthy. Why do we have to?
for it to run somewhere. Why don't we? Just
put it on our website and say this is our new at which we would
So we would put ads on the american but website, and it would be like
a major new story-
literally was not more than a pdf, and so so
as a marketing as a marketer. That's like
exciting cool,
crazy in interesting.
the challenge, and then you go
rapporteur whose writing about this at its not exist, is then
stay writing about a polluter,
story or cultural story? A celebrity gossip whatever, and you can't live like to set
standards for headache?
This is the same person just
relying on the same random tipp that came, and so it was this sort slow, weekly process for me of, like hey, would I
sleep and I was what I'm doing as its relatively harmless other. Certainly not so alarmist. People were
had tried to hire me many times, but
realising like oh this. This is not good.
This is not. This is not the world that doesn't, if america
as a country.
Where are your leaders are publicly elected, then, basically
popular opinion is
the ruler of the country that you live and right. That's how we find out about people. That's how policies get you know thumbs up or thumbs up
and so we realise into this whole thing was the second that I'd I'd peaked behind.
Curtain in a way that was very hard
see, and so I tried to read,
but that was.
Compelling an interesting, but this
the main message was like this is not how this is bad this week, really bad and that's not how the book ultimately was received, no how's it received.
Well, that the initial media attention was like overwhelmingly negative like I was the problem.
and then what happens is low.
If you are a scumbag you're, the guy that was doing this and you're a scumbag, and you made all this stuff happen. You tricked us like. I did this thing.
But where there are things to be, this service is called help a reporter out. The service was like reporters like that's, it you're doing a trend piece on, and then they could be
Who wants to buy crews and expert? I'm a man like me
and so I was I
just pretend to be an expert about a bunch of shit- I don't know anything about and
let's see if they actually check. If I'm an expert was, is an online service, your help, a reporter out dot com or something? Yes, yes, whose end, and so
Porto would put on their hand, doing a story about anime any experts out there
and ryan holiday it'd realise, however, whoever answers first, they would talk to
and so you know when you return pieces and they're like someone so says they love, skateboarding or whatever you think this is like a person they found on the street skateboarding, but
I found out this thing like they may not even own escape or write like
baby to say whatever they wanted. Science couldn't like the new york times and good morning,
I couldn't every media outlet. You can imagine what in what, as an expert in what
about anything there even want none of anything that they wanted in that story. So if they're like, let's go to the new york times about the resurgence of final record
of which I knew nothing about, and I just gave those made up this long answer about. Finally, in there I quoted the paper record in the united states and so on,
is this something I'm doing for something like the thing with vinyl records, as you get that sound quality that you just don't get on a cd and and also it's something physical,
that you can hold and there's a whole bunch of nostalgia, because, along with that, that's why me and my friends are out there are buying vinyl once again reinhard. You could have been in this story. That's almost exactly what it was
I may not have even been a real person like this, is just an exchange. Overran us and
and so this is, this is like. I'm
about this going, but this is not how the sausage should get made
and the media reaction was look at this
he's fucking up how sausages may not like the process is bad. So that's why
at your number one. Is that and then
Number two is the but starts to be.
Really popular with real bad
who's, gonna say this is like the anarchists cookbook eggs for four people that are wanting to figure out how to do guerrilla
market zebra, gray, outlay on my right people, and just like just not good deeds were like. This is my favorite book. You know this year from people you're like. Oh that's not! I don't like that. They don't want.
that to be true. How long did it take for you to realize? Like did you do a book signing where you were just a bunch of sleaze balls start asking like hey? What will you do this like? What's the best way to get people to to buy into your scam where it'd be you know you just,
Here's the weird part, so I wrote the book in and it is true that, like people's repeated tat, we call now cancelled
That was not a figment but people's like reputation,
only it ruined from life
random, rumour, something that's not true or something is taken out of context, so tat
abandoned in the book and of Davos
located in the dove:
was doing shit that he should have done and in some of the stuff wasn't true and so on
more about the stuff that wasn't true in the book, so that the real thing.
Slowly affected me on. The book was just like I have probably heard for
every major person who has been me too, since the book came out
they are all hundred percent innocent when they call you know I mean like, and it was this process of its pilot. What a defence attorney goes.
where you start your like everyone's innocent
be railroaded, and then you just like the can,
the innocent and then you with their all guilty. You know, and you just start to dislike the clients that year, you know hired to protect, and so it was a kind of a process for me, like
That's not how I live my life and even when I worked in amerika repair like I was with my now wife
the entire time. I was interested in the shenanigans or any of the mission
for any of that shit, and so that was also just a process of like people wanting to use the book, because.
They won't they wanted italy,
we are convinced that they were like the victims when there were really the victimized hours in autumn in sahara.
Are we really stupid and has been a profit
so yeah. I mean everyone read twenty four in and as you right now,
You cannot think that you're, a magician, that's like gonna tell how the magician tricks work. Yes and so then,
You get people
that are like you? Why are you telling how the magician trick work and you also get people go and oh I can
use these magician tricks like rip people off. That's, basically what you did
and you expect great, if you, if you say how the tricks work, the trick should stop working. That was my think.
People were like well why you don't matter one like if I lay at all out. Obviously all these loopholes will get closed. Re like this
be possible anymore,
We compelling read, but it it's the it's the final chapter in a lot of stuff and that's just not not the case
there is very little and that both pets aged it somebody badly, but it's all true stuff
and its excel as its sovereign right obvious, because
Now, even less people get there. I mean.
Social media is the main new source for most people. So it's not even like what I was talking about how social media would filter into the mainstream area. Now it's now just it, sir
and anyone like you talk about how you had to like get it to a blogger,
nowadays? You disapprove make about make up.
account and his fire, something often yeah
fingers crossed, and now you even have to do so now you could write code that does it you can have a bar.
no enemy, unlike what percentage of tweets or internet comments were these,
stream things that we will be met is that person even real, probably
probably yet or are they working in some? You know computer farm in Moscow.
Or north korea and write like foreign actors,
lest hey like if we can get, are we
an attack america, but we can pit americans against each other, and so
what is the most extreme shit? We can get someone to say from this side. So then
people pile on that people didn't like. How do we
certain ideas radioactive? Had we people against each other? How do we just driver?
increase with more tender spending on social media.
They're not spend in doing actual shit. The matter near I've been talking a lot lately about when I was running
the training, the advanced running, foreseeable tunes eat. You wanna do
wanna put them under pressure situations, you wanna see how they're gonna perform, but one of the ways you could guarantee that they were going to fall apart and just and just do, a terrible job.
Was too. If they were,
any kind of like a little less.
Frictional fault line inside
the protein and, if that, if they couldn't, if one of them, but it's the people,
tune. She first of the petition commander. If the
then couldn't sort of simple
neither ego and be like. Ok, fine words. Do your way if they both
just held strong all of a sudden you'd get this. This little fracture will just turn into a fault line, would just turn into an earthquake, and everything would fall apart may just be hey, they would fight each other and hate each other and you'd be terrible,
it's time. You can get a team to go again
itself, the team is
to lose, and so-
It's so clear that that so much of it
This happened in america right now and we
spend so little time gone. You know ryan's.
good guy. He thinks this, but he seems like a good good enough. Dude. I dunno more fine,
have gone well, actually, ryan thinks this he's
evil person, and he doesn't even understand things, and I know everything- and I am obviously right about everything. So I hate him
there is a there was a thing that really really happy home after the book came out. So I live in this little town called basher texas,
you remember the jade helm, fifteen conspiracy theory. No, there was one of the first
Since I ops before the election, interference in step, which is basically through these, like facebook group,
They started this rumour that this is like, maybe to fifteen.
Member. There is a series of like army-
sizes are military exercises in the southern part of united states where they are practising for like russian invade their packs him for like an invasion in needed there doing this broad sort-
war game, the? U s, and they spread this conspiracy. Theory that that the federal government was planning to take over of the states
which is ironic radical. That's what this war is about. It started in such a hurry, settle the cheaper, but but this time
this conspiracy theory that, like starts in social media, then these blogs are talking about it.
The news. Outlets are reporting on how people are worried about it and then like citizen
arming, and then a gregg habit. The governor,
sends the national guard to observe the exercises right. So they want
watched as this fake thing,
now suddenly, literally the the
national guard and the actual army are like
ten, surely in a conflict, is a right and an that's six of trade mark the kinds of stuff that I was
came out in the buggy women, and this is what I think when people think cyber warfare they think like hacking.
that can be part of it. Yeah you fuck up an election
who grid or you know
the launch of a missile, that's, but a big chunk of
is more like in.
information cyber attacks, where you're spreading out things
getting people riled up about stuff- that's not true near that's all.
stuff. That you're talking about in that book is exacerbated. Now, yes and more true,
because we're more online there. I'd like there was
Even when I was running up, there is still distinction between, like the internet in real life, and now I mean just everyone- lives on the internet disturbing
Your next book that you rolled into was growth hacker marketing, a primer on the future of pr marketing, an apple
so what same vein.
I guess a little less nefarious alive, a little less nefarious. You say this:
back to ninety. Ninety six before hotmail had launched as one the first free web mail services, it became an early example of a product going viral. As the journalist.
Adam pennoned bird describes the meeting in his book
I will loop hotmail founders, severe bosnia and jack jack smith, sad across the table from TIM draper, the famous venture capitalist. He told them. He
thought the product web based email was greatly wondered how they get the word out body is first instinct was that industrial marketing approach we ve been talking about, will put it up on a billion,
billboards arse, I will put up on billboards. He said draper next such an expensive approach.
for what would be a free product, so they kicked around.
We're radioactive same problem? What about sending an email to everyone in the internet draper suggested that was the that was
only a slightly newer version of the old mindset. Spam doesn't work. Then draper happened accidently on growth, hacking could
you he asked, put a message at the bottom of everybody screen oh, come on: we don't we don't want to do that, but can you technically do it? Can
put it. Can you put it on the one message and if you send an email to somebody else, you can put it on.
one to right, yeah yeah, they replied so
p s. I love you get your free email at hotmail at the bottom. This little future changed everything. It meant that every eu
that hotmail user said would be an average
as for the product and not advertise
was effective, not because it was cute or creative, but because it showcase an amazing product that many people wanted and needed each. You know
each user met new users, each email met, more emails and more happy customers and most
crucial all this.
be tracked and twigs and improve to drive as many users as possible into the service
This was revolutionary. You go on to talk about what growth
hacking is a growth hacker.
One who is thrown out the play book of traditional marketing and replaced it with only what is testable, tractable and scalable.
tools are emails, data targeting blogs and platform AP eyes instead of commercials publicity in money, while their mark
in brethren chase vague notions like branding in mind share,
Michael share in a while ass, not one growth, hackers relentlessly pursue users and growth and
They do it right.
those users become evangelists for products bringing more users with them. Growth. Hackers are the inventors operators
canada of a self sustaining self propagating
of machine that can take a company. Just
just from zero to one, but from one two hundred or a hundred million
So what was it? What what made you decide to write this book?
I was. I was interested in this sort of group of all those big
but he's up now multi billion dollar companies,
They basically launched with no marketing whatsoever,
and they grew faster than
the company has ever grown and sort of water,
lessons, and then I may, I think, about your brands rate like if,
established, like consumer packaged goods, company was gonna, launch any of the stuff you dead and they were alike or what
gonna cost ten million hunt right like the whole thing would have been at it, had almost incomprehensible skill and almost certainly
felt like what what's there what's their hitting percentage and extremely low
and then you look at these. People are built. These huge brands off the back
a similar instagram account or a youtube channel, or you know like in Seoul
really interested in how, like the game, had sort of fundamentally change like what
what don draper was doing. Can madman is not how marketing works. Did I mean? Is it works once you that's
kind of what you do at at a very high level at once, you're already huge, but when you're buildings
from scratch, which is what most of us are doing. I'm try launch a coffee shop or a book or a brand or
studio whatever it is restarting from zero to its really like,
How do you go from zero to those first people?
and when we learn from like the best people that have ever got a net that idea of growth, like one of facebooks early decisions is they didn't, have a marketing department, they had a growth department and it seems like a kind of a semantic difference, but like a marketing department does marketing
and a growth department grows right like eat? Just a word there is is illustrated.
In a market in this region through a premiere party, we bought it,
teacher, you know, if it's all this stuff, that's cool, we'll, have a booth at the sundance film festival or would break it stopped. Its call for the mark
yours, but nobody knows works or not, and so all about that. That's what it's about and that book with a book which we are about to vote is a kind of prove the book started as an article and it became in a book. Then it was a paper back and then it was an extended
it's an insect third or fourth edition, so it was kind of a weird. It is also not how books really work with
when you wrote when trust me on line came out what that cannot through traditional publisher,
and you got a book deal how'd you get about you
I got an agent. I knew tim ferris ass agent to we have saved agent, steve
I just went and I didn't it
so I just wrote. I wrote the book I was like this is the book it's coming out regardless and then I I saw. I showed it to him asking me if he thought I could
and it did so. It's all that an auction ruses, big thing. It was funny. Actually, then that then,
we put about the publishers out, an auction yeah yeah, I got it was a hot book hooker
which is pretty cool, had like twenty four. But then the funny thing is when I announced it, I just doubled the size of the advance. I just said you know I said Eric. I paid like a half
knowledge for which it didn't happen. Nobody checks, press releases and so then than the thing got a bunch of press as this like huge books.
Some sort prove my point.
but but
So then too then did you do all your viral marketing for that book yea and how the hell did you? Do it's really? Well, it's all really! Well
You got a lot more attention than its own copies its
It's the really well and then to growth
but came out and then then, as I went to my publisher, and I said I shall remember the exact talent, but
when I had done is marking books. I went to my publisher nose like for my next book I like to read about an obscure school of ancient.
And they relate.
She was like a record scratch thin and
That was that was the big serve pitted italy.
Pivot to them? To me, there is always one I wanted to
when you are doing this doing marketing,
two works right here
seems like you have to be good at marketing these books and do well with him. Otherwise, it's kind of like we know. Why are you teaching us about this stuff? That's I told him. I was like, as a watch me proof,
as I watch me prove in this book, which I wish I D, and so you pulled it.
if you pull it off with both those books, did you do that sort of growth, hacker marketing eventually come out on a traditional publisher? So I yes! Yes, it did I'm actually all my luxor with the same publisher except for my kids' books, because you gave me some advice on cellphones,
They are of a retreat
and what about temporarily.
this book this
the four hour chef
What was your involvement with that? So I met him right before I dropped out of college actually to two dozen seven at par hats help south west, and we
became friends, and so I we're gonna marking on all his books, and I mean
It took a job because I want to learn from ten madrid learned so much from his is a genius there and you can just watch those things become just absolute monster,
but yet we do the marketing per. But that was a weird book, though, because it was the book the came out on amazon publishing and he got hated by every other.
Normal publisher and they wouldn't carried in bookstores. It was man, yeah basin,
he got busily.
All the retailers teamed up and said. Why would we carry a book from our
biggest existential threat, and so we
during this thing, where we gave a huge chunk of it away and bit torrent, which was like a piracy website.
and and so
millie, but millions of people download it in the books on supply.
Is weird, so I met tim entered
is to blame for, like everything that I do right now, so good job him proceeded. But when I met him-
my first book had come out yet and
the things that he was saying to me? I was you know
like thinking? Ok, yes, I'm ok brought you know because it done
well and
It was so weird that my
publisher. I mean my publishers now what has it been almost eight years later?
There are now more, for lack of time
work hip to what's going on, but at the time they
what the, how far ahead strategically timber
This was in two thousand fifteen was was, was
busy, for example,
he said he's like I'm gonna put
spock gas or my book was coming out extreme owners.
was coming out.
over twenty four something like this and he says yup he's echo
this depart gases cause I recorded upon us my first ever interview with him. He secondly put upon cast out
September one of great september and I said
these it that way when you get
prevails on amazon scrabble. He had this off this whole thing and so,
my publisher and n
they said they said,
you get him to put the podcast out the the week of book. Launch
and I was like I'll ask him, and so I said, hey man. They really want you to put this out on the week of the book. Large unease
I like that's, because they have no idea what they're talking to and he and he was just so right cause now I've done it a bunch of times and he he was just so right and he just
new q. He had so much strategic insight ass to what was happening compared to what the traditional but
publishers and look there's some great people. I I have a teen there,
that right has helped me launch a bunch of books, the done a great job, but he definitely
was ahead of the power curve when it came to. How did I get this shit downright, I think, would Timmins tim, special skill, tim special skills that he figures out like
he deconstruct the system. The forty does anything three fingers out like what actually moves the needle what actually works, what the lodge
of the world that is operating in and then he's like weirdo.
have an advantage. What are people not
Taking advantage of you know anything
All of that, so I can give you an example here
also to blame, slash the the beneficiary for me,
all the stuff that I've done? My my first couple look,
the amount needed all right, but
I remember I was we were both at this conference in amsterdam and I was working on the obstacles when agenda
gave him that I was like what are you working on? I'm like I'm working on this book about stoic philosophy, because he and I both are really into it and he's like. Let me read it
and ass. I gave it to him and he's
Let me by this hasn't, when you mean I'm sorry sold to a publisher, is no let me by the audio book rights. This was
in two thousand and thirteen before
were audio, was before audible is huge.
Tim was like anybody me buy and I think he might be
both rights from my publisher, for like five thousand dollars,
and down and my pop
poachers like absolutely not. You know
trouble idea. We want to do it.
It's either that or they didn't even care, but I remember being of animals are just let him do it. Every once in a restaurant
Have you seen my agent sir brokered at opposite? It works with others.
Embodies the audible grades. He recalled, I think, on the fourth episode on park, as I think,
launched it to promote this audio books,
publishing arm that he did. He visitors went and bought the audio book rights to bunch of his favorite books,
knowing audio books, we're gonna, be huge and then more
he also knew that audible paid like a fifty percent, refer
bonus for any new subscribe,
two audible
so he knew like not only
see, recommending a book that he on rights too
You joined audible for doing it. He got like
huge cuts of your like commission. So so you were
all this out and I'm in the audio books of that
was waste with hundreds of thousands of copies and,
than I can my next to also materially
this is basically I'm below
when people up on my blog
gives like I'll just take a stake in the things there.
And- and so you just did- that every
every time. I remember at self myself best twitter launched like that.
the year that twitter launched when I was a dozen seven and I was like this-
this idea in the world and TIM invested
TIM Tim has an eye for whatever is going to be a cheerleader shirt and he he he figures out like what
resources are under exploited or undervalued, and that's
even his investing like hobbies.
The big investors, but he also realise like angel, invest in is the most efficient.
way to invest.
put in a large amount of money, and so
He was able, and can he also understand from personal status,
cartridge there that like he was-
just a genius at figuring out where stuffs going and he gets in very early, and that's why I mean that's. Why is huge
yeah. He told me to sign up for twitter and he's at easter,
Are you really should get on twitter? It's a great way to get information, it's great way to meet people and all of a sudden get connections with people that you wouldn't otherwise connect with that
I don't know how to do it and he's like don't worry I'll show you I'll show you how to work it now so yeah I'll I'll I'll, walk you through it and the I signed up. Fourteen
it'll be a damn thing about it, but I mean he was early in the podcast. He was earlier. Social he's been er, but he did tell me he's like it's. You don't have to be. First
you just have to be early, so he lets people gotta figure it out. He he read like this
very few, where tim has gone wrong,
You know I mean like like he does.
he's not like he's not just like picking
and horses and some of them when he he he waits to adjust its action,
sure enough, and then he dives any johnson with two feet and any fuckin crushes
yeah. No, he told me to start a podcast to like as soon he pressed stop on the recorder. I remember weirdest at his house in in san francisco at the timer and he pressed stop and he looks at me and he said you should start a podcast and I was like
ok, yeah veto and then run,
and told me the same thing, but it was. It was tim, just like pressed up. Look at me said you start up. As you know,
like. Thank god. He told me that it is. I listen to them.
That's pretty wild! So you're doing so, you have helped to this marketing on all his books and
Then you start with the obstacle. The winner. How long have you been into stoicism, for I felt
stolen. Before I got a call, it shows when the obstacles
him out and what happened to us in fourteen. So what
What was the was a connection to it?
it marks rios his meditations, which has just I think, one of the most incredible and unique historical documents to ever access to major right.
The most powerful man in the world,
Maybe the wisest man in the world at that time is right in private.
To himself
campaign with the roman army about what
He needs to do to be better
the human being
as a leader and and to not be corrupted.
the power that he holds,
and he never intends it for publication in
against all odds like twenty
centuries later we can read it it's a miracle. I mean it. It's just.
Nothing in every one of my books in your books,
were writing there's some.
a form of development for right, like there's some it's out false, but there is something in it where you're writing for the reader.
So wrong authentic about meditations is that it's for him. It's interesting of
asked since first prob
five within five park, ass em on three hundred ninety four. Now people like, oh you recover cover surrealism, meditations, end
actually of legitimate. What I think is a legitimate reason: why haven't done it,
the legitimate reason as if you read the public, if you read meditations, you need no further explanation. There's an I can read it to you,
But I have nothing else to say: really
every one of the statements and that you go yeah that stands on its own and this stand on its own, and this stands on its own and that's why I've never taken the time
I suppose I will at some point just maybe
have a conversation around around it, but
it is so self evident.
What he is saying in there maybe
because of what you just said, maybe because it's not performed if it doesn't take any it doesn't take any.
gushing to uncover-
anything else. It is what it is worth. That's what what
just about sources was like stoicism, has been
philosophical tradition for twenty three hundred or so years that some
wisest smartest was powerful. People use. It was widely wildly popular nature. What why
Is it not more popular in economic life right
and the answer, I think is it's hard to specialise in the study of stoicism has a philosopher at harvard or whatever, because it's all fucking
and yeah it's you there's no theories about what marcus was thinking or did he mean ness or it's like he said what he means, and it's so boiled down and stripped of artifice or pretension
no paradoxes or caught like the
the paradox is that some time,
she says this, and sometimes he says that right and people go does contradicting himself and it's like to a practical, regular person. You know so
and you do this, and sometimes you do that great, like
just so simple and accessible in real, like they weren't like how do,
No, if we are not living in a simulation or not or like. How do we know if, if there's
thing is good or or evil right like it's. Just it's just pray,
to go we'll shit about what it is to be.
Person in a world where the vow,
a majority of what happens is outside your control
You did you read in high school,
read it my four aggression near of college. Did you,
art to apply them in your own life, obviously somewhat hit her miss. I think I figured
I think what struck me at nineteen was like the passage about
getting out a better early in the morning with him
opening of book. Five and meditations he's, like
at dawn. When you awake in any interrupts himself- and he goes
But it's warmer here, because this is what you are put here on this planet to do to huddle under the covers and stave warm like the most powerful
and the world is having.
Debate with himself about whether he should get up early or not, and so I think that strikes you up here
a human right like you're. That's me, you know, maybe not you, but
At the same thing- and this is-
Another thing, that's been interesting for me, so you know
once again, we were talking before hit record. I didn't read like
when I was growing up, I was I was an eye- was a novel
after. I was not. You know my my
Mom was english teacher. My dad was a history teacher, my
They were met. My mom read all the time, my dad red seven newspapers a day. They were just very
in two reading there were teachers, you know that's what they did and I was not
I don't know. I can't think of any books that are actually read in high school and I dont think I actually read any books. Nice going might have read one or two. You know for some the english class.
something like this, and I apologize to my english teachers that I didn't didn't.
But I just wasn't going to go in the military. As you know, I just I just didn't seem to be
something that I need to get done.
In fact, at one point, my mom was was
I was already in the navy and it was probably like you know like year, two maybe two years into the navy and my mom says like oh: have you read any good books lately and I said well, no,
said, why would I need to read a book? Do you suppose that might be interesting? I said if it's interesting they'll make it into a movie and she said well what if they don't make a movie, and I said if they don't make it into a movie, it wasn't that interesting. That's average of eighty idiot I was
it wasn't until I went to it was so it's a thin
As I was moving up,
ex seal teams and eventually realised how important writing wasn't so I started route focusing on it.
in, and I also started reading military history books like
a hundred percent solely nothing else, because I
could relate to it because I was like. Oh, this is about war. This is what my life
posts to be like, and then when I went to college, I knew that began
A good writer would really help the guys that
What four makes you gonna write awards for them? You gotta right.
evaluations for them. It's you gonna write concept of opera,
you write all the time, if you're an officer in the military, and so
I wanted to get good at it and that's why I studied english and then I started to read.
Then I started reading.
time and- and I remember when I was in college- you know right once MR took five english
I causes an english major. It was horrible, but
I mean that's gonna be reading for eight hours and I also contrary to high school
I was in college- and I was
I went to college after I've been in the navy for yourselves a groan adult human.
I would read. I read every single assignment that I got a hundred percent.
I read, every single page of every single assignment that I ever gotten college, which isn't
I don't think I don't think there's very many people at all that do that, and I don't even know if I was that smart, but that's what I did so
reading, all the time then, but
like when I started upon captain I started getting interviewed and I'd get people asking me about. You know philosophy. I remember I was on stage one time in a guy said: who is your of all of our philosophers? Who's, your favorite philosopher and my answer. I said: let me enough of motor have because I just didn't
I have it and as
people started. Saying oh jack was writing is is
It's very stoic writing and even worse,
let's talk about getting on a bend morning strike out, but I have written about that,
a autonomy times. It is all the same,
but you know
eventually did upon cast about it, because you know it's all. You talk about the same thing that san Suu and the same thing that marcus, aurelius and well
you put a human
into certain environments like war
or leadership positions, and they
look around and they they make
mistakes they learn from. It makes make some other mistakes and from eventually you're gonna get to see
place. That's
it's it's a normal place to end up and that's kind of where I ended up, and then
I looked around and said, oh my gosh know like these guys been talking about this for so long. I wish I I wish it would include on that when I was younger but have but that's
went up. You end up, saying oh discipline, ecosphere! I
I said, discipline equals freedom for the first time. I remember a brief it to these
junior officers. This is like circuit
two thousand and seven two thousand eight I'd.
and have told you one thing about stoicism and yet are,
ro. I would tell these guys if you want freedom in your job in your life. You need to have discipline. You know me
yeah, I got some of it from all from black,
Henry rollins because I grew up. You know listening to listen
black flag and hearing Henry rollins talk about discipline but
I realized oh yeah, that discipline that he's talking about. If you apply it to your life, you wonder for freedom in your life and discipline equals freedom. This is
and then I realized what applies to your team to like. If you have guessed
well tuned they're gonna be able to operate with much more with
with much more hands off and make things happen quicker. So it was
very interesting to me, too kind of arrive at a place that is
Well, you're gonna end up its work and end up. If you get put in,
war, you get put into leadership positions, you makes mistakes. You learn from you put it
makes mother mistake. You learn from you live a life, you it's it's where you hopefully end up,
I think this is why stoicism in buddhism, for instance, have somebody similarities is that if you boil
human condition, the human experience and boil history down enough times: you're not left without much. Your left
Basically this idea that
control. What happens when you control how we respond to what happens and that
these events are opportunities to to be great, to be excellent right and that that's like the core. That's the
and I think that's what struck me reading marks rules for the first time is like when people here philosophy they think impractical. They think the radical think abstract
They think incomprehensible, ready. Think college professor talking about interested.
Ideas, but that they don't do anything but confuse you
and then you read, meditations seneca epictetus in they're, like life is spoken hard
here's what you can do about it like here, don't
emperor try to be a dead person. You know epictetus is is asked to be
We boil all of stoicism down as simply as possible, and it is, I can do
two words what secretary, but he says
Do it in basically to terms persist, resist
some things. You need to keep doing, and sometimes you need to stop doing right like that's it. It's not that come
get it right and,
why the golden rule appears in all the different religious traditions as there's not that much stuff. It's
really just comes down to life. Who can say it
was clearly and then who
tradition, does a good job of living up to it, right, like
That's what I think so interesting about marks really is the most
For me, the world, literally,
as a god commands. The roman army has unlimited wealth.
and you know this is
to corrupt. Absolutely he has the absolute power so that power corrupts it's. That absolute power corrupts absolutely
and then you kind of have this exception to the rule, and he
writes about it in meditation, see those be careful, not
become caesar fide and not to be
stained purple because the roman emperor, whereas a purple cloak and just oh yeah,
Maybe it didn't happen for him
because he was meditating in his journal about
making sure that that didn't happen like he was he was.
working on it and philosophy was a way to do it,
He also regimentation is his says, fight to be the person that philosophy tried to make you into,
and it was like. Oh yeah. This is like a pep talk from is a petty
he's having with his with himself about living up to his potential as a virtuous purse
that is almost certainly struggling to in the midst of fresh
in annoying obnoxious life.
So two thousand fourteen you you right there,
because the way, here's here's a section from that in the year one seventy at night in
ten on the front lines of the war in germania,
This really is the emperor of the roman empire sat down to write, or perhaps it was before dawn at the palace in rome, or he stole a few seconds to himself during the games. Ignoring the carnage on the floor of the colosseum below the exact location is not important. What matters
is that this man, known today as the last of the five good emperors, sat down to right, not to an odd,
for publication, but to himself for himself
and what he wrote is undoubtedly one of
trees most effective formulas, for overcoming every negative situation we may encounter in life a formula for
driving, not just in spite of whatever happens, but because of it. At that moment he wrote only a paragraph. Only a little of it was original,
almost every thought, could in some form or another, be found in the writings of his mentors and idols, but in a school,
and eighty five words
This really is so clearly defined and articulated a timeless idea that he eclipses
great names of those who came before him is more than enough for us quote
actions may be impeded, but there can be no impeding or
tensions or dispositions, because we
accommodate and adapt the mind
gaps and convert to its own purposes, the obstacle to our active, and then he concluded, with the powerful words destined for maximum quote the impediment to action,
fancies action? What stands in the way becomes the way
in marcus's words
marcus his words the secret to an hour on no,
as turning obstacles upside down to act,
a reverse clause so there's always a way out or another route to get where you need to go so that setbacks
Problems are always expected and never permanent
king certain that what impedes us can empower us.
And then you go on to say there are
you things to keep in mind when faced with a seemingly insurmountable obstacle, we must try to be objective to control emotions and keep an even keel to chew.
to see the good and the situation
steady your nerves, to ignore what disturbs or limits others to place. Things in perspective, to revert to the to the present moment, to focus on
what can be controlled. This is how you see opportunity within the obstacle. It does not happen on its own. It is,
process, one that results from self discipline and logic and that
Logic is available to you. You just need to deploy the articles, the lange
I was very core issues. This is
no one of my. I think it might be the most popular clip I've ever made as this clip from upon it. S got good right in
a story about. This is something that was saying again before I had any recognition of any this stuff. I tell my june
platoon commander sandstone caves,
gone wrong good. Now we
the object overcome it and all that
As you know, the record is: there's, no wonder people late. Do it's one of those think that's been boiled down over time and just true when
we can imagine that he'd know from experience.
Oh it's! Ok! We just found out this when we just received news of this set backward. This person just affected, or you know this person just died right-
is that the emperor would be nobody.
good news to the emperor
she's gonna be bad news after badges, especially for marcus's, ran it's it's kind of tragic
this philosopher, king. He inherited thrown from a man and antinous. Pious is basically twenty years of peace and press,
Already and then Marcus's ran, there's a plague. The internet plague, there's series of historic floods,
the almost the entire reform are almost
the entire reign of marcus real time is, is that war series of porter skirmishes and he berries, six children
like it's one thing after another, for this guy
and and it's not that it's good,
like that, he would have chosen it that he was happy that had happened
it was an opportunity for him to deploy the ideas, insight
as you know, I mean, like everyone
but here the obstacles way. It's like others can be grateful
business like no, your business might
just barely survive right word, it might go out of business, but it can be good
are you as a human being, you can learn something from it. You can grow stronger from it. You can practise forgive
is acceptance like like when we say that everything is an opportunity
at the time the opportunity is like humility,
or acceptance or learning from your mistakes. It's not mad,
quickly a springboard to exactly where you wanted to go. Like sometimes wife wouldn't kicks you in the chest
like a thousand times and and and when we see the obstacles, ways that it's an opportunity to practice,
two and excellence inside that should, in fact, had I've had a brief
a few people on that over the years in terms of taking ownership of things, and they think oh well. Well, you said, if I take ownership, you don't listen to that. It wouldn't be a problem, but I know you did something wrong. You have to take ownership. That doesn't mean the problem went away. You still have to solve the problem or or fix
the problem or say you're sorry and me
commends it? Do things to win?
the trust that you broke like yeah. All that starts with ownership. Ownership doesn't make problems, go away, they just it Jesus
a place to start when a lot of
ownership as a leader
owning shit. That's not your fault, you didn't screw up you
choose to be too for it to have
and in this moment that you just sancho
if savings in something and then a pandemic happens or you know, there's a strike or
You know what you don't use any of that, but it still like it's your fucking problem.
And you you have to go well. How is this problem gonna? Make me better yeah in
I felt was we ve had a very interesting extra experiences will work with companies. We work with companies, I've of accounts
to company called national front. We have watched of companies that we work with most of the time it
probably gone up, I uses a say, eighty percent or eighty five percent of the time. Now it's probably ninety five percent, the time where work with companies that actually are doing,
how they want to do better
bring us on to help them with their leadership. Five poorest
the time working
brought in by some external component like let's say the board, who says a this company's failing? Can you go help them
Can you get their leadership in order and
reception that we get in the ninety five percent of companies that are doing well was like we're so happy you're. Here we want to learn from you
and the reason that they're doing well is because their humble enough to say when the market shifts they call. We judge that well, here's an adjustment we can make, or
if the competitor did this and they didn't expect it so now they got to counter that by doing this move and they admit that they got you know the competitor got a one up on him when the board
This is because the companies failing there
The action is like well,
we're only failing cause the competitor this and the market did that, and the union said this, and our investors did that it's never their fault. That's why they're failing because they don't change anything because they don't think
therefore, so
when you're the leadership position
it. Actually is your fault. It actually is your fault when something goes wrong and you didn't plan for union predicted a you'd have a backup, you didn't have contingency. It's your fault.
And by the way
means you have the ability to say. Ok, I made him
I called his where I thought was going to happen. This would actually happen. Here's the adjustments are going to make so
letting your ego blame. Other people is a complete disaster.
Stir and doesn't work when in a most beautiful passages in meditations at the beginning markets list.
his debts and lessons like what he learned from all the people in his life- and he has is, he becomes
emperor kind of a remarkable process right leg he his dad is not emperor
it comes from no royal family, it's
at there's busy, five male, emperors and dont. Have a son or- and
his any children
so Hadrian is getting old and
he he sees something in this boy, marcus aurelius. Who is sort of unfailingly honest and decent, and he wants him to become king, but he's way too young and he thinks that's the worst thing you could possibly do to someone
he adopts a sky antimony minus who is like one of the most respected politicians in rome.
and actually what seals it for Hadrian's, he watches no antinous doesn't think anyone's watch him and he watches antinous hell.
His elderly, father in law, up a flight of stairs and because this
this guy is it so he adopts antinous who in turn has to adopt Marcus real
So he sets in motion this succession plan and hatred probably thinks you know: antenatal live like five or six years in them.
more antenatal israelite, almost two and a half decades after that,
as one of the longest running emperors, just that alone, so Marcus gets like twenty plus years
of apprenticeship under a great man, and it goes
but ways I mean like antonyms- could very quickly killed marcus aurelius, that's what you might expect to happen or or marks really could have tried to kill
Instead, they decide like know what that's really do this
I want to learn from you. I wanted to
to, and they have this beautiful relationship
in the beginning of meditations marcus lists all the things that he learns from aunt Ninus,
and it's one of the most beautiful
Oscillations of what makes a great human being in a great leader is like he teaches me
when to listen to experts when deceived the floor. How to be on Austin
Asia is happy
he even learns he's like animals would planned his bathroom breaks, so that,
could be more efficient at the job,
You know you just let all the stuff that he just learned from this great man and you get this
and that marcus when he does
empowering suddenly, there's no check on him whatsoever. To me,
things he doesn't want to let this guy
he doesn't he wants to follow in
tradition that he was raised and it's just. This is beautiful
and totally unique historical situation of which more
this adds a cherry on top, so Marcus gets a step brother. As a result,
this, and he knew
mrs step, brother, co, emperor? The first thing he does with absolute power is it gives half of it away
again has never happened and will probably never happen again and and it's just
I mean there's so much like there's so much
you can study from this person.
There.
I remain endlessly fat, even all these years later, just everytime, I think about it. Every time
every time. I pick up meditation. I get something else out of Michael. Oh, how did
You know how did you not even even them
even during covert like I didn't really think of meditations as a plague book.
but he wrote it during a fifteen year plague that soldiers brought back from the east,
edges of the empire. That sounds familiar it and there he does his there's two types of plagues
there is one that can take. Your life is like that's pretty bad, and then it's like one that can destroy your character and that's the worst
one and a half years ago shit.
humans were exactly the same during coven as they were during the anti plague and always have been always will be, and that's what that's what's so cool about philosophy is like the timelessness of it or that yeah ego is basically the plot of every greek play.
And tragedy, flash for to every superhero movie, like it's just eager, that's the main thing
what was your as your working
american apparel. How did you
still philosophy line up, delight. Dismay him, that's going on. There live in just generally a philosophy of life
discipline ethics and end like trying to,
a decent person having thou wilt thou back their kept me out of trouble, so did so to being effectively married, but I think
watching someone who had not absolute power but
is watching the way that wealth and power and business and fit, and all that just watch in the way that can
or some one it's pretty. It's pretty
I'm with real and also super scary. You know to watch some one that pit like
dove saw me, and I see something of myself in you
then to watch him spin off the planet. That was a thousand real had fuck would introduce. The
topic of vigo and I'm talking to companies and people. I talk about
when a threat. It is, and then I explained that there's countless example
throughout military history, where someone's ego
drove them to make decisions that got thousand.
If not tens of thousands of people killed.
And in many cases themselves killed so they would rather die than
Yet they were wrong rather die than defensible.
made their eager to someone else rather die than change. Their plan cause the plan they came up with, and I say: listen if people
we'll die for their ego. Trust me you can you can like overrule someone cause you? Don't you don't like the way they looked at you and that's all ego
that's a scary thing I mean macarthur- was this close to world war? Three. This clause
and that's not a new, I mean he was. He had the same job as so many of the roman generals. Who did this exact same faint cry like
the overreaching is. Is the thing is a great m epictetus quotas?
Remember. It is impossible to learn that what you think you already know so, on the on the one hand, there's there's the ego of of the overreach of the ex super, talented, even egotist, but we forget, although
sort of silent casualties of ego, who we never hear of
because they never got like they just got fired life on their first day or they never graduated from cut like they never made it because, like nobody could teach them what they.
They already knew everything
if you just go rockstar let destroying their career. But what
the one that blew up the record deal.
Before it was even silent because you're just a dick iris wanting
talk ruddy go when we would fire.
A seal leader from me
at position. We would fire a ceo leader not because they didn't know how to read a map, not because they didn't know how to shoot their weapon, we'd fire them because their ego, because they lack humanity. Then, when you
humility to listen anybody else. You you're just gonna you're, just gonna implode and it's it's absolutely terrible, and I also tell people
You look ever got some natural amount of leadership
capability different,
it was different skill set. Some people are good at simplifying things. Some people are very articulate. Some people have a loud voice and it took a commanding presence like oh, let's get different levels of those any any.
Those who can get better in those cattle
where you can prove in some way
unless you're benito maniac
where you ok emoting and then then I really just can't help you like you're, just going to be a terrible person and a terrible leader and you're not going to get better because you don't listen anybody else and you think you're perfect, so going back to
potatoes UK. I can teach you anything if you really think you know what you're just screwed, what it's like, if you
you know everything you right
can't learn anything else and if you think, you're perfect, you also can't get any better. It was.
weird deal with guys with big egos elegant in a sealed james. You got a lot of wealthy
myself included but you're, not you
sign up and go. Do the the
quote hardest training in the world because you don't
you can make no you're like up. Do this, let's go
Then you roland with some of these guys and you
can just see the look on her face,
doesn't matter. Sometimes their senior to use sometimes are junior. Do you it doesn't matter
looking at him, and you can see that what you're saying they if they do not think
need this information and they know better than you
at sea. Gull k: well maybe my ego, asia, ok,
explain your perspective and you realize that they, their perspective
is the only thing in the world to them and they end up getting fired. This away works terrible,
I'm gonna work with a lot of support schemes and I have to and that they all talk about through the best in the world do till you got
here and so that you know and then can you do you have? If you have confidence, you can become good again if you have ego,
you will get destroyed because now, all of a sudden you get your ass kicked you don't know.
Doing it doesn't feel natural like shaka. Smart is a great basketball coach at marquette. He was talking about how people go like they always quit. The players always quit cause it's not fun.
More and is like the game. Is the exact same amount of fun? You just don't
not being good rail. You don't like the learning curve. That's what you're objecting to
and in the realisation that, like life and progress, is this constant process of
bumping up interior limitations and the things you don't know and if you will like that and you get better from
Then you keep growing and if you're the person for whom that
struggle is immensely painful and uncomfortable in its threatens your identity and self worth as an as a human being, a fact. Here's
We fought
ego is the enemy. Let me get a lecture blown from here in nineteenth
three dwight de Eisenhower returned from his inaugural parade and entered the white house for the first time as president late in the evening as he walked into
executive mansion, his chief usher handed eisenhower. Two letters marked confidential and secret that had been sent to him earlier in the day
Eisenhower's reaction was swift. Now
bring me a sealed envelope, he said firmly that's what
staff for house now-
right at the office.
Gone to his head already, not at all
Eisenhower now recognised this
when we insignificant event for what it was a symptom of,
organised dysfunctional organization, not
breathing needed to run through him.
Was to say that the envelope was even important. Why hadn't anyone screened it has,
in his first priority in office, was organizing executive branch into a smooth functioning
order driven unit just like his military units have been not because
He didn't want to work himself, but because everyone had a job and he trusted and empower them to do it as his chief of staff.
later put it. The president does the most important things I do the next most important things
the public image of eisenhower. Is women playing golf
in reality he was not someone who were ever slacked off, but the list
time he did have was available because he ran a tight ship. He knew that urgent and important or not symptoms, heat
His job was to set the priorities to think big picture and then trust the p
beneath him to do the jobs they were hired for, most of
are not the president or even president of accompanied by moving.
The latter in life. The system,
and work habits that got us where we are wont necessarily keep us there,
we're aspiring or small time, we can be it
listen. Craddock we can compensate for disorganization with hard work in a little luck. That's not
the cut it in the majors, in fact, it'll sink you if you can
grow up and organise. We can contrast.
eisenhower system in the white house with the infamous car company
by John delorean when he walked away from g
to produce his brand of futuristic cars, a few dec,
aids remove from the company spectacular approached implosion, we can be forgiven,
we're thinking. The man was just ahead of his time, in fact,
rise and fall is
time was a story. As there is power. Hungry narcissist undermines its own vision. It loses millions of dollars of other people's money in the process. Delorean was convinced that the culture of order and discipline a gm had held
brilliant creatives like himself down when he sat
when he set out to found it
company. He deliberately did everything differently flouting conventional wisdom in business practices. The result was not the free wheeling, creative sanctuary that delorean naive
envisioned. It was instead and overbearing. We political, dysfunctional and even corrupt organization that collapsed.
Through its own weight.
Actually resorting to criminality in fraud and losses of some two hundred fifty million that Delorean failed. Both
as a car and as a company, because it was mismanage from top to bottom, with an emphasis on the mismanagement at the top by the top. That is
laurie himself was the problem compared
eisenhower, he worked constantly with different results.
Very different results, as one executive put, it Delorean have the ability to recognise a good opportunity, but he didn't know how to make it happen. Another,
negative described his management style as cheating,
colored balloons. He was constantly distracted and abandoning one project for another he was
genius savvy, that's right
early enough, though
probably not on purpose delorean created as a culture in which
you go, ran free, convinced that country,
you'd success was simply his by right. He seemed to bristle at concepts like discipline, organization or strategic planning. Employee
these were not given enough direction and then
the other times overwhelmed with trivial instructions. Dolores
couldn't delegate except a lackeys who blind whose blind loyalty was prized, overcome
parents or skill.
Top of all this. He was often late or preoccupied executives were allowed to work. An extra curricular activities on the company dime encouraged, specifically to chase side projects that benefited their boss at the expense of the company. As ceo delorean often bent the truth to investors, fellow officers and suppliers, and
habit was, could was contagious throughout the company like many people driven
a demon delorean decisions were motivated by everything, but what should
what would have been efficient, manageable or responsible,
improving or fixing gm system, it's as if he threw out order altogether what
ensued was chaos in which no one followed the rules. No one was accountable and very little got done,
The only reason it didn't collapse immediately was that delorean was a master of public relations, a skill that held the whole story together until the
Faulty cars came off the assembly line, not surprising,
The cars were terrible, they didn't work. Costs per unit was massively over budget. They hence
ensured enough dealers. They couldn't deliver cars, the ones they had the launch
a disaster delorean motor company never recover. It turns out that becoming a great leader is difficult. Who knew
yeah classic in its classic. You know- and I just talked about this point- was freedom from a just personal
back to britain, also inside of an organisation. If you have an on
discipline organization you end up with
where nothing can happen. Nothing can get done. No one knows war. What direction we're gonna! Just total chaos. You think it
fun to get to do whatever you want and it's the worst thing we could possibly wish on someone and
good chunk of what I was writing about. There is obviously what I'd just sawyer at american apparel like we have. This
again, this idea of the leader doing everything
everywhere being always accessible. Like I mean when I first got their deaths
have said something about how you she added an open door policy, any employee.
Com at any time. He would answer- and I remember thinking
how it should be done and then, with time- and I saw at first hand you go- we ve got turned fifty stores and twenty countries at twelve thousand employees,
You always have someone away with a problem in sometimes out, and so
You get woken up from a ted sleep
because some
your manager in korea didn't think they were
and if overtime,
and you know so, he's he's he's not here.
not only take care of himself as a human being, but here,
No ability to see big picture doesnt realize he's making these massive strategic mistakes, because what
he thinks he's doing he's giving himself credit
These technical corrections he's making
problems he saw, he doesn't realize, is getting further and further off course
and so you end up. I'm robber green told me this distinction once between strategic Heaven and tactical hell,
An egotism is a good way to get stuck or sucked into tactical hell. You think
busy and you are the centre of everything else, but you
in anything that the end. You is very gratifying as well, because your solving problems and people are praising you you got
stone. Oh, you got up the new cap
register order for that store in south korea. Great you did a great job. They're gonna get deliver tomorrow and you're you're hailed because of it. Meanwhile, you know
Three quarters away. You haven't ordered the material that you need to get the job
when I looked out of the window. One time of my office, I stared in fees direct and traffic in the parking lot
and again. The seems like that this seems like a humble, like roll up. Shirtsleeves do
anything leader and there is a place sometimes for that, especially almost like it's a showmanship like watch me.
You want to see or bluebird sometimes drive a newborn, get a sense of what it is, but dove was doing
because he had passed,
something on the way in and it bothered him
instead of having competent staff. The way that an
officer would the goes you need to fix.
Right now, when I come back downstairs,
better have gone away
he's doing it himself and what he's doing
taking his eye off the ball and
and he likes the image and the image is cool
The reality is if the sea, always nothing in big picture, know some,
I can direct traffic, but no one can do what you do
that that requires a certain discipline. It also requires an acceptance of
things not being the way that you want them to be got the hard thing.
yeah there's a certain level. I just was talking with some clients, as there is a level of risk with decentralized comment that the traffic
I'm like a ryan that traffic down there in the parking lot was terrible. You need get that squared away, there's a chance.
It's that you're gonna do something: that's not quite what I would have done to get. That's fine! That's fine!
I often say that the best
operations that we would go on in Iraq. I'd have to say anything
have to do anything on the overall guy in charge, but I have to say anything because everyone knows what they're doing and they just make things happen, which is the way
should be, and I never had to like if a guy did something wrong and have had correct that individuals are depicted regarding the team would take care of it, which is exactly
the way it should be isn't crazy. Then a guy like dove can
so talented and and
genius to use your words and yet just
I see these things, which are so obvious right now
to just about anybody that watches that
work of destruction unfold.
I mean here- you see this in sports all the time. This is the most talented person in the world and yet
if not, why they're getting caught that someone, cairo irving. These going from time to time to team right, like its army,
in two seconds. What that these problems, but you can't
fix it or he's not willing to fix it, and so I think someone
like self helper in personal development stuff,
it's like a bad rap, but.
The willingness to work on oneself to like look at your problems in the mere too to focus on winning there hats important work and not enough people do and
it's not that egotistical people were people. It is thought that they don't become success. One
dove still is in a very large mansion. You know lots of
yes. Well, people were horrible.
their city leaders. It's it's that at present
them from doing the things that they could have done and that that's, like the shame of you, know what I mean like it: Steve jobs gets fired by apple.
Deservedly so like his come back story is a result of his willingness to do work on himself, but, like you, don't always get that second chance. I if you think about, had great people who
pissed off their publisher, their record label or people who
play well with others in the
depriving the world an themselves of stuff they could have done, and it's really set
like again the invisible graveyard of things that could have
an accomplished if people like chat check is talked about,
the number of rings at he encoded could have one together. Rather you look at them.
the brooklyn, that's like. That was the greatest super team ever assembled and they may be
to be on the court together like nineteen times and
again there all very rich, all very successful. All clearly
performing at an elite level,
There was some some ceiling that they bumped
to that. I could have broken through. Had they been able to listen to, you now
listen to the people around them. A huge part of that is
having the ability to detached from yours
health and take a look at what happens when you say like self help, which is negative.
Add rapper or whatever, but part of what you're gonna do in those situations is you're going to take a step back and look at what you're doing yeah, which
if you're in a business and the business is going well and what you do to try and fix it is go deeper into it and and closure
your blinders even more you,
see the mistakes that you're actually making I've been saying a lot you
the solution to a problem is an inch
the problem you when you're in the problem? You don't see the solution you have to get outside that problem and when you're the problem you have to get outside of yourself. You have to take a step back and look and say: ok. What am I actually doing right now? What
makes him I'm making and if your ear
out of control this. This will just never happen. It will just never happen.
You have to be humble enough to say: hey, there are some things that
Don't seem to be going very well right now, and I think
the person that's in charge, and this probably indicates that I'm making some mistakes. What can I do better right back?
It seems like so obvious and yet theirs
countless stories
and in this can happen on a large scale like at american apparel or can happen in
Many scale like wind, someone's in a relationship with another human being
They don't understand why the other person's frustrated and it must be that other person without
look in the mirror gone. Maybe you act like an asshole. Sometimes I just dumb
I saw this interview with sean payton. I'm a saints spend some sad that he left, but he was
ass. Light what're, you gonna, do about Russell. Wilson ran this terrible season cute contract. In denver, terrible season and he's like when you ve got
they do he's like what we're gonna break down. What happened last,
and we're going to see the plays that went well.
and then we can do more of those plays. No real
play that didn't go well. We can run fewer of those in your leg.
that's so basic, but that is first up. That's getting,
the outside of a problem, rightly instead it just like forcing it like that.
Do what we're doing, but we'll try harder right.
or we hope, will get luckier or will play
you know this or that of the other? It's just like what stepped back and less
down the felt. This is why teams breakdown film in this way
in the military debrief. You look at what work and what didn't work
Also, this is what coaches and consultants and team members and comrades and spouses this is. What they're like hey, you know
this pattern here like every time. This
and you do acts is that
and then how does ex go not well? Well, then one
we tried this. Instead, you know in the ability. It's very hard to see yourself from the outside by definition, and so you have to cultivate
a process with its journaling like that's what market surveillance is doing in meditations or a therapist
two or
what of advisers or of pay
accountability, partner or partner culture. Whatever that allows you to go
I'm getting in my own way here like a lot. How do I stop doing and then- and this is what dove didn't do you have to listen to the advice to have to actually do that stuff which nobody wants to do yet
the idea of ruddy things out his is all of this is something I always tell people to do. Many
that you got told when you were you know,
sixteen years old and hey, do you want to go to a summer camp or do you want to stay, and you think someone goes all right down the list of pros and cons and
You do is you you are detaching from the problem, even if only for eighteen inches away, but now you're. Looking at a piece of paper when you have to
down your fault. It makes them more clear and it makes you see. Oh yeah looks like I should. Definitely you stay here and get a job someone you need money
it's gonna be a better deal for me like make
those decisions and detaching from them in writing them down. That's why
even writing books for me, as I will.
Right down debris
points for people. I'd read it now,
I'd see. Oh yeah, I can see this is a pattern here. I can see how I need to explain this better cause, they're, not getting it. So writing
things down? Is such a powerful tool because it de facto causes utilities had from the problem
there's a reason that almost all successful and creative people throughout history had some kind of journal in practice right where they talk,
about how their day went or how they want their data go or the ideas there working honour. The things are struggling with that that eighteen and
that might be. That might as well be ten thousand feet. Beautiful gives you so much distance, and its also so much better to vomit
that out on the page, rather than on other people, and once you are,
stipulate ones, you write it down and in so many times I'm running my draw what that is
In saying that logic does not true at all, or also
Britain is up like all unnoticed, like I'm writing
tired. I am very regularly for that's a solvable problem right and you, I obviously knew I was tired, but just the active
of just seeing your thoughts is
That is the most basic philosophical practice that there is an that's. What that's
literally what the stoics were doing.
How did the egos enemy do really get really get
if it was funny it was sort of a nice. So it comes out,
It should be viewed a number one on the wall street journal list in somebody might
which were made a mistake when they entered in the wrong category. They put it in philosophy.
There is no rest for instead of business, which we asked them for
that would enable a number one
and so you know I opened the thing:
expecting the number ones of age and told me the sails, and it's like saddam
not number one. It's not fair hair
there's a chapter in the.
look about this idea that the effort has to be enough,
like you control the effort, he don't control extra, no results, which is a
for a timeless stoic idea. It's also in the box that you have to refer to your own book. I was like fuck. You know that right because, like I knew I did a good job, I knew I sold the copies, which ultimately is what matters anyway, not this arbitrary list of where you rank against other people like. I know what the number is
and also for the four cares about the first weekly? Tell me: is it still, you know there's a drake lyrical.
tell me who you check in a decade. For now the book is still selling right. Like that's what matters. It doesn't matter what you do in the first week, but but it again Michael,
so cool about stoicism about philosophy is that it is for those people.
it's where you're, like someone made a mistake, it costs me
something, but did it cost
something. Do I actually care about this, then? What is it actually mean to me and then how do I process these emotions that giving people think stores
is like having no motions. No stoicism is having the framework
understanding of
really is important what you really believe and it allows you to process those emotions. So instead of
sending off the angry email, or you know like putting my foot through the wall, I'm like oh yeah,
is a chance. Does the chance to practise what I
was talking about which I already knew, and I already have practice, but it's more practice. I had my book
despite because freedom was coming out in two thousand seventeen in october mid october of two thousand seven,
and so I had gotten the pre copies. Like backup,
I at my house, my big box of em and I had the bay,
media toward thing all scheduled.
my friends have died or not
amber thirtieth, two thousand seventeen
and so I
cancelled everything, but but then like I was destroyed,
cause my friend died and I
I remember. I had this book that I had written and I have a section in the book about death,
I literally had to walk over to my own book and read
that section. Two too,
remind myself of how,
you get through this again and again, that's like
we talk about writing stuff down to.
to distance yourself from it, but also lie
what you're saying you know, you're pissed, that you didn't get on the list. The way you should have and like of course you go back and like read the section on that and it's it's the same thing. Sometimes you've got to your. You got to interrupt that
emotional cycle! That's going on and say: hey! Here's looking
from a distance years, what's going on in
That's why having books like these are, it is important to be able to refer back to him
Otherwise, you can
get caught in these loops that are not healthy, yeah. I think first
In writing. This is like a form of accountability,
publishing as a form of accountability killing. I said this and I saw the two people. So if someone
this may not doing it. That's that's! Not a good looks forces. You looking like this sort of thing.
but then also when you're writing. In I mean it's not it is you, but it's also you channel in something big,
and more timeless than you like. You didn't invented you.
covered it, and now you're sharing or you uncovered it or rediscovered right, and so like the process,
of writing it and I think, almost as I've really
it just one of the interesting things as I've gone back and read more the obscure stokes, like there's a metaphor in
in meditations remarks, really talks about being a rest
Nobody talks about being a box. European creation is like the old form of a man
and then I realized oh, no she's cribbing from an earlier stoic. Why did he didn't invent?
that this exact paragraph basically appear somewhere else and oh, he was
reminding himself of the key was that the act of writing it down
freezing, putting it in his own language was away of kind.
Putting it in his own muscle memory, and so
Writing to me is not this generative them. It's more of dislike. Repetitive met it.
haitian. Do you enlightenment?
writing the daily stood is its reps. Guess it's wraps
the two reps on the squat rack, yeah and you're, going to get a little bit stronger and they're going to get a little bit more embedded in ingrained in your head,
yeah. It doesn't make it easy to apply them, but it makes it easier to remember next. Up.
The daily stoic three hundred and sixty six meditation,
on wisdom, perseverance and the art of living
section this.
Some of us are stressed. Others are overworked. Perhaps,
struggling with new responsibilities of parenthood or
chaos of a new venture, or are
you already successful grappling with the duties of power or influence wrestling with addiction
employee, love or moving from one flawed relationship to another hour,
approaching your golden years or
Enjoying the spoils of youth busy and active or board
out of your mind whenever it is, what
you're going through. There is wisdom from the stoics that can help. In fact, in many cases they have addressed it explicitly in terms that fuel shockingly modern, that's
we're going to focus on in this book fast boredom
but organised along the lines of the three disciplines, perception action and will and then further divided into important themes within those disciplines. You'll find
each month, will stress a particular trade and each day
offer a new way to think or act the area.
Of great interest to the stoics. All make an appearance here, virtue more
your motion. Self awareness, fortitude right action, problem, solving acceptance, mental clarity, pragmatists
unbiased, fought and duty the
this hands on approach to philosophy is to help you live a better life. It is our hope that there is not a word in this book that you can't that can't or shouldn't to paraphrase the neck seneca be turned into works, so this one,
perception, action and we'll talk with you. Those things is also industry
sure of the obstacles which, basically, like you, control how you
look about how you you can try? You look at a problem right what you think and feel
about the problem,
control, the action that you take them,
problem, and then you control the sort of willpower, determination, endurance that you bring to bear on the problem, marcus, real imitations. These sums, America's objective
judgment now, at this very moment, unselfish
action now at this very moment, and it is, will
acceptance now at this very
that is all that you need, and that is sort of the encapsulation of stoicism. The idea that bike
what is it? I'm not going to be rattled by it? I'm not going to exaggerate them and see it for what it is
do what I gotta do
and then I'm gonna eminent persists through
ray, I'm gonna like an indirect and survive that that is the sort of
That is how you make the obstacle is the way that is how you apply stoicism in big situations and small ones. Just
It's some live events, and it's interesting. How much of this,
One of the things I was talking about as the the the
mt of control of your choice,
of how you're gonna view things right have what your perception of these things are going to be when something bad happened. When something good happens,
or you can actually perceive it and then what actions you gonna take about it. It's off.
Right right along the life of this, which is which is good,
pretty strange and then
spock right here,
as you are right in this
it's kind of everything that we just talked about right. This is like, oh every day, we're going to remind yourself. You have a journal that goes along with which I don't have a copy of it, but there's a journal that goes along with where you can say. Oh here's. What I did today you've said,
up in a way that its evergreen,
there's no days so he doesn't have to be Monday january. First, a kind thursday january first near still, gonna go and you can have
keep growing through this book forever. That's been the great powers
People are eight years into it and so all sign people's copies and inside libya.
it's my favorite book and it's like I can tell it's not, and then you meet someone you're like oh, you put some fucking miles on and that's like the coolest, that's the coolest.
When they got that four different or five different colored highlighted that have been used in different tags on different colored tapes. They hang out cause that's what my copy of meditations looks like you know, it's all tat
back together. In almost every page, almost everyone is marked, as at some
point. That line spoke to me not the first time that the thirtieth time, but the hundred hundredth did you know and the stoics out about this there. They say that we never step industry,
river twice and what's cool about re reading books is that you're different it's the same.
a different, and so that's what it's best to be an ivy
The other tricky thing is like when you
when you hear about a tradition, are a way of thinking like where do you start, and I think, when this
just the dearest stoke, which is not it wasn't mike
the ad hoc. Actually, my agent, who did the translation steve, is the one that suggested like oh yeah, start with all of its like the greatest
the greatest hits album. You know it. These are the best ideas from the stokes is, I call my favorite quotes and then I just riff on them, but I I've found that that that can be hard
people go seneca marks really is epictetus, which george I start with, and it's like
You know so much more about you before I can. You know before. I can now tell you
and this is like kind of a survey course of the stoics.
and a day we reminder of what you're doing and that
in the same river because is
the continuation of that quotas. No like us there.
The same revenue is not the same man right by a continuation of its from heraclitus, great poet,.
I've found that, like out I'll talk to accompany and I'll talk about,
say the for loss of combat leadership, and-
Two years later, I'll go back and talk to the same company and some guy I'll come up like while
really like the new like than the new scheme.
that you ve put on these things and I'm like a man
I've been saying the same thing for the past fifteen years. I also
applause. I hate your seeing it differently now
your memory. Last time, I you had a team of four and I got
forty two and you were
We're not publicly traded company and now you're publicly traded, so you got it's totally different years different river, this man yeah there's another line like when the student is ready. The teacher appears- and it's like
it was all in the book, but it just
it wasn't unlocked freedom. You didn't
stand all that way.
Into it until you or you understood it on a surface level? Now you understand it to mean something totally different and that's that's to me. What like great timeless amazing work. Is
they even movies. You watch movies. Are you read books in your like first
there was a hero. Now, there's a villain now there's a hero. Again, you know
the civil war is like that for me, the more he studied with civil worried. You go
You started, everyone has an arc you now and it that's what moral complexion
in reality is all that mean. Example. From the civil war will grant,
fascinating
does he is flawed, brilliant
laud brilliant should it become, should have been president in it? Was a present a bad precedent? Is it impossible that
because the loss caused mythology you know, is
Is robert e Lee this sort of tragic figures? The monstrous villain right were
that, my my my thing on the civil war is like you know you learn as a cater like it was all about slavery. Right then. You study
the civil war like his weight, more complicated than just being about slavery.
then you really studied a civil war and I like it
hundred percent about slavery, like you, don't mean it becomes. I think we need
study things. You study people, it's very simple and it gets complicated.
And then wisdom is the ability for that complication too
and become a kind of simple?
the city again, you know what I mean
and so I mean that's what everyone
pick up a book about the civil war I'm like I
do not need to read and others book about the civil war. I have so many
they don't know about. I should read about something new and then I just
something totally new out of it. I'm like have you been
battlefields doing of them. What's your favorite gettysburg nome and I haven't been to a billion of em, but I've been gettysburg seven times.
So we do. We do like a battlefield tore at gettysburg and
it's it's just awesome. It just awesome cm vicksburg guy,
here having vicksburg is more,
We ve talked about going to export vicksburg as well, and the upcoming you could certainly argue that its
important for sure I mean this house should assist- should have surrendered the day after vicksburg there's done their stun
yeah. It's such a it's such a crazy war. In one of the things that's interesting about, it is
further sumter, some sort of statistic you can get, but
The soldiers were really really literate in. They were really good writers, yes and he
read what the writing about the civil war and there like private
soldiers on the front line and their super articulate it just awesome to read, and you have all these accounts of all these people that road all these letter, homes or or cat.
he's journals and you can get a really cool.
Ground, truth to what they were thinking of other feeling so fascinating.
Then you re like grants, memoirs and your leg. This is
like one of the greatest books ever written? And it's just this? How do we write this
I like the best, but it's why
two, if the gettysburg battlefield that just the just the hot water,
explained people that before us like hey here's, how they set it up.
The one side of the battlefield you ve got generally on a horse standing,
looking across the battlefield from where his troops were reigned? In
Other side of the battlefield you ve got general meet on a horse and he's looking were hit from where his troops were read. Like you can't it's almost
who good it's like the perfect, it's the pie.
Fact, memorial battlefield their showing you how this thing went down. Yeah you
You wonder why? I love vicksburg vicksburg is the perfect. Obstacle is the way story, so they set lincoln center grant because grant's like the only guy in the west with momentum.
And they send grant
also sends mcclarnon he's he sends his
we spent at the same time is political replacement grants. Gonna failure. Take over
so grand goes. Vicksburg now is like this nothing
But it's them! It's the only stronghold left on the river. The most import
city in america controls the navigation in the most important river in the country country's splits in an hats,
it's this citadel on the bluffs there of mississippi him so grandsire more attack, doesnt work,
he's. Ok, we'll go above it doesnt work he's like me.
Did a canal, we'll just move the river doesn't work, please try and everything right
and then he finally has this idea. Furs of my other favorite is
and get their sherman technically out, ranks grant.
And our future,
isn't that a in charge like
surrenders superiority in this moment, I'll do whatever you and
and sherman, gets like the worst jockey,
running a faint he. He gets like the least sexy job, the whole thing, but anyways grant and a porter and fair.
They, they run the gunboats and they ate paid. They skip vicksburg altogether.
right this. I think that once you do, you cannot undo,
so they run the gunboats they make it and they cross.
Three hundred miles south animals also note that at heart
I'm so easy like the perfectly nancy he crosses and then grandpa's now we're talking here,
boots on the ground on the right side of the enemy you now and then
it's a you think, ok he's! Obviously his is crossed the river and now he's gonna head up to vicksburg instead is forget about extremely has to jackson and a bit
who takes jackson burned to the ground, which is what we
applying the citadel in vicksburg.
then, in a month later, now he's in this. Isn't this thing for a year now we had backwards,
and now suddenly all the advantages of being a fortress on a bluff,
the mississippi river
dissident now they are trapped. In said, said, city grey
and he lay siege.
He doesn't give in takes like two months. He finally surrender
they surrender on the fourth of July thinking that he'll be merciful, which of course he is not.
and then vicksburg does not celebrate the fourth of July till nineteenth.
woody five in protest in this but basis
All the lessons that great
in german you
or learn there or how they win. The war sherman cuttings
supply lines being on the right side of the river taking the war to the enemy sherman's march is learned there at hard times and for grant he was like
I've got more men, I've got
what time,
got more money he's like? If I just don't quit we win
and so in grand goes east and takes over the army of the potomac. It is from.
Vicksburg, so not only is. Does it take
the advantages of the enemy and flip them on its head, but also in
crying all these different things. He acted
cause? It wasn't easy because it didn't go is way the first time he learns everything that he then uses
to win this avoid the battle the wilderness, the siege of
when petersburg, all that is from vicksburg the witch
the way you can never figure out, if you're, not humble, yes, because you just stop,
the same where interesting we my last
planet to Iraq, we're in the city of remedy, and we are working very closely with the with the army.
with the one one eighty and they had a great colonel who became a general and we are doing
big operation and so fixed
was the first joint. What we call
author, a joint operation between the army, the navy yak as the navy's in the river rival answer. So so we did this big operation and
look down a big chunk of the city and we called if he named the operation vicksburg has,
As you know, army navy working together is only forty seals out there that we're workin from a navy side, but you know,
we're we are doing our best to have an impact in it. He was appreciated. That's renamed vicksburg. I love that because it is this remarkable story of collaboration and evil
business in that porter
farragut and,
in german, all work together,
favorite momentum. Actually just writing about this. Now is unknown
series, on the four virtues and dumb friend my justice, which is an illegal
this is like how do you can afford yourself as a person own grant comes up with this plan?
to run the gunboats into other stuff. Germans, like is a terrible idea, is will not work. Do not do it grants. I can't take this
I hear you, but here's wiping I'm right insurance. I think you're wrong. He goes by
It was like, I think, you're so on a minimum memorialize it nonetheless, I have to write
he's so worked up about what a terrible mistake, if he thinks he's, maybe he's
put it in writing to put in writing, sends its grant course. It works out,
German want one sermons overruled please.
Does everything disposed to found a complaint and then, after its success in grants like giving Sherman oldest credit there
Where's their and our sherman walks up. It is like it needs
on the record that I oppose this right. At least he's like. I thought it was about india, all the credit goes to this guy, and then
when grants writing his memoirs
sherman goes send them
another letter- and he says I am sure you have forgotten about this-
and I know that you deleted the like. I know you ripped up the way, so I'm in closing another copy. So the record, can you know he doesn't even want in this moment he does
what credit unreservedly anyway.
the record a show a k. I didn't do right behind you.
You can see how easily leader can only
focus on how the results meant that it worked out and not the fact that they had
like you want. I think you not only wanted to be honest, but I think he was also going
hey. This was an instance where I got it super wrong, and I want to make sure that that's what stays with me and what other future people learn is dead. You know, I didn't get it right.
I'm not a genius. I don't have the midas if I thought it was wrong. I thought I was wrong,
I was proven la la that's.
That's a great borne out. I talk about that. Would we just overtime anytime, I'm wrong, I'm super stoked because it gives us the opportunity to add
at every them wrong and be humble and say: look here, you have a better idea than me. Let's use your idea, I love being wrong its awesome. I also always say that I really have to admit that I am wrong and the reason I really have to admit that iran is cause. I don't run around saying I'm right about something guess
I sit there and say well, I think we should use this marketing plan because I I think I'm right. No, I say: well, I'm not really sure that could work how about this idea so
If you dont, pay yourself no corner by screaming genuine that you're right or
creating memorandums where you say I've to go on record by saying that this is wrong because it we're done to take, I guess back in the day you might have been china, maybe
the document that fact just so if it
go wrong. You can say a dude. I pointed out to that's a really weird thing at gettysburg to, and you had
long story and those are
I commend it to where he say. Listen, I've, I've, commanded score
and bore tunes and companies in battalions brigades and in
I estimation no, the arm,
ever assembled could take this position and lisa
coordinate anyway and that's
probably should a documented that a little bit better than you did ya know it
it's so fascinating. I treated is registered to suit their historic recently where like didn't, they had they put
video together had some one work on it and I was like
arable, it's not going to work. You know I always have all the reason. I don't like it and then we're like. No trust me on this and they put it out
did like a million years ago, our first it and it's a good reminder to in hollywood. There's this
Nobody knows anything about. What's gonna work, it's all gas and the set
you start to be right couple times in a row. Watch out
daddy fact right, like with trust me,
I'm the publisher almost cancel the book over the cover. I knew it was the right covered either as bad as cover here. Yeah yeah, I did
I didn't like it
things into my publisher, told me he said
you know what I mean. This is extremely cops
extreme she was coming out. We don't know anything about
like we weren't you going into this life, and I were just knucklehead that were wrote a book and
well. How do you think it's going to do and then our polish remark was like
nobody knows, and nobody knows nobody knows how good a bark book is gonna. Do he had some example, some book that open
and free was on her show at o, prevent winfried
peak of her show saying that this is an incredible, but by the spoken like they sold three thousand copies mountains. That done so, not only
public knows yes, that's why
the viral thing
creating vital thing which is interesting as it utah.
By creating bioethics and you're able to pull it off sometimes, but even the gray ryan. All day, two weeks ago we say: hey this video stupid, don't put it out,
viral video a million years when no one, so they don't like the cover- and I I I stuck
my guns and it worked out and then on a later book. I was
convinced that cover should be a certain way? The subtitle should be a certain way
and it didn't work? Was it didn't like fail, but just didn't it didn't work and in the paper back we fixed at all, and so it's it's like
I could, I guess, go to my grave convinced. I was right and blame some other factor, but at the end of the day,
gotta, go no you're, not gonna, be read a hundred percent like statistically
You're gonna be wrong like a lot, and so
how was the one of these
I look forward to win its objectively and
irrefutable in irrefutable that I was wrong. I got okay. This is this is like eliminating want this. Is it
If it was never going this way than I am clearly in the throes of eager cause, it it stiffly happen.
I'm just not seeing it do you want to seize on the times real? I care. I think I got this wrong. I made the bad call. Clearly it's not true, because you don't get
clarity that often no no you don't
so then we get into speaking of sound
the perennial cellar, the art of making and marketing work that lasts. So this was like us
back. Yellow war brought this about
I just got lots of people, would ask me for advice on books. Cause I'd worked on so many and then the publishers like do wanted this book marketing book, and I was
kicking it around, and then I was like how I should care about marketing books. I care about making stuff tat lasts. Like it's funny rate,
your measured in the first week of yourselves. We put something out how many have yourself. So if you saw a ten thousand copies, let's say you make her, but if you sell
thousand copies a week for a year. You sold a lot more copies, but you will not appear in any vessel owners and
people always measures themselves on the wrong. The wrong things right,
it's funny the publishing industry, all of the money and.
Of the successes on things that are old right, but they call perennial titles with a backlash.
and yet all the energy and all the focus and all the media coverage is on. What's coming out like this tuesday
and so I am interested in the stuff. Alas, anatomy
How do you make it harry market? It? Would you learn from the stuff that has
then, what we? So you write this book or how does a deal? I guess
this is a niche market that has too many people that are like yo. I'm writing a book. I want to see how I do this. I mean it's it's more about how you make anything that sort of lessons from sort of timeless work. If I was doing it again, I'd probably do it differently. I think I might do it differently at some point,
might be ideas in a really good salt. I made it so well enough at any other
be very excited to have that.
Or of sales how'd. You made the new york times best seller list. Yet at this point
No, it's funny. No, no. I thought I'd sold
Well into the millions of copies before I had been your times us for the first time, which was a
surreal strangest made.
obstacles away came out. It had to do
Austria, journalists,
and then I never hit the new york times list and I didn't hit the new times for the
time until I debuted viewed a number one with my like ninth, but so
These things don't mean anything, but that is what people care about. You know how much
companies raised right.
I out like who selling, but they don't care like is still going to be around, is profitable rate. Is it proper
Is it still going to be around ten years from now? Two years from now
eighteen months from now right. Look, so everyone chooses what's popular now, but they don't think about
is this likely to
You know what I regret that for marketing. I knew this is only gonna have a short in a relic
it- was your life
I think so many people write things and they they think it's a lot and then it's just when you talk
never had a shock.
Never had a shot, and so I think when you, when you
if you're going to write a book you ve been making
you to view goes up right now. Can it can be of the moment refrigerator?
the time to do something like start accompanied her book,
ever it's gotta, it's gotta have the potential to have lakes. In writing. A book
the agenda somewhere talkin about before hit record. Writing a book is hard to do it. If you writing,
yourself if you're gonna pay, someone erratic call that, whatever you know your weak, but
If, if you're going to, if you're, going to actually write the book yourself, it's going to be it's hard to do that.
It's time it's editing a book is,
the hard to do like the whole thing is hard to do, takes a whole bunch of time and
What's really crazy is like writing a book.
You can write a you, can write a fantastic incredible book and also you no fourteen hundred copies nuts that dunstan.
And you can write like another book that happens to get in some people's
and always all of like crazy. You can't,
some of your books that have like not done very well.
according to the market out of the gate and yet now they're selling
There's a thousand copies overtime, so it's a war,
hoping to get into it, now
a r, not
stable thing to get into now. Like eve,
if you're out there thinking? Well, I'm going to become an author and tell a bunch of books that that's a rough, it's a rough game to get into one of the funny things. Is
since the books have worked in a people that all right
he's right? Let's doses, intimate money, and I was like
couldn't think of a worse thing to do to make money like
that's, because I remember the conversations with my polish women as I don't want to write about doses of narrow, like what's the
least amount of money. We can offer this person and it was a not large amount of money.
And they only me later that they were just hoping tat would like get it
my system, but then, when something works, obviously it's it seems like. Obviously
it was your plan all along
The reality is books are a terrible way to make money right and they take an incredible amount of time and energy in it. They
work for you
And so like when I, when I might have to be born in you, I think I'm running a thinking about writing a book of good, don't write like you
you cannot do it dont? Do it right like
we write a book. If you can't not, do it right, cried good adverse you like it
to be something that you would be happy with. If its old, seven copies right, yeah, I
well for either the same thing happen when extreme
came out. I immediately
We can write a kids book and though I wish
the record of the conversation with my with my editor and
guys. A friend of mine he's a great deal, but you know he's like hey, likely he's trying to fifteen different ways to taught me how to do ass, a business like crazy. That's that
You're just gonna get put in this pigeon hole and then that's that an
we don't want to hear anything else from you, the other thing
This reminds me of this more advice from ten ferris when,
don writing a book. Your fifty percent there, yes, like one
done with them,
I of writing a book,
You now have
percent more to do that, just as hard as the first fifty percent that you just did when you thought you're done, I've decided
if he votes, you finished running a marathon and then you know you come through the gate and you're like oh and you're staggering. Across the finish line, you had this last burst of adrenaline that got you through it. I'm done
they grab you. They put you through the shoot him.
Their taken. You like the tent reader, relax. They put that metal,
get on your own ever or them
stan and there actually just taking you to the starting line of the second marathon that you have to start right now you and it's it's a
as fulfilling marathon.
lesson. Your control
the
It's also more embarrassing and awkward at all. The things that you do
wanna due to begin with, but if you
do it. No one else is going to do it for you and what does it say about? I can people,
I go. I don't I don't do that,
marketing sales stuff, I'm just like a writer, a creative, I'm, an inventor. You know whatever I'm jurists,
it's what you are saying. Is it your shit, socks and you?
I believe in it enough to work
I go on podcast and talk about it with you.
No, it well enough to confidently cell
or marketing and so dead it?
to be a huge.
the equation
Why did you do it like? Why did you not? Why did you do it, because I'm getting their fight
down on paper, there's something valuable matt,
but why did you
leave over every sentence in the packaging and, like you did all that, because it's for people
And now now that the fear of them
essentially not liking it and the potential audience being cut.
It now you're trying to back out of it going. What's that
That was never important to me. I dont care, and so it is too.
What you have to be pure and do it for only the right reasons and then
you decide to put it out. You have to become market
and a hustler and you have to work just as creatively in committee.
The to selling it to people, and it's all on
fuckin hard, hardside the obstacles away, so millions of jobs, but the first week its old thirty
one hundred copies. Maybe you know now what that was all that seemed like a lot in retrospect, as you know, not even a fraction of a percent, and so everything that succeeds comes to dwarf what it did at the beginning. Hopefully,
and that's cause. You didn't quit on it new kept pounding the payment doing work there
speaking of why did you do It-
Next you roll into a conspiracy peer deal, whole cohen.
worker and the anatomy of intrigue yeah, so
if this is out of left field book, you are wrong subtitled and I forget what the new subtitles are. No, no I'm saying like that was the subtitle I was like this is the subtitle and we fought and was like fuck
much about it, and now it's pets said
ex power,
billionaires.
Added to crush a media empire sounded it's like actually sounds compelling the red in retrospect, very I totally and the color of their body to because I bought into that like I was. I do this. It's like you know.
goals. No, I could get a sandwich here. Pickles
you sauce and
no fried fish you're like whoa. What is this? I want to try it so when I see Peter thiel, hulk, hogan and gawker, I'm like whoa, what's going on here, and I kind of vaguely remembered the whole story thing, but well that's what I thought and and you're, probably like a nerd like me, so you're like injury, you're, going to be a spy, but that now with the market at all
it's my least selling, but
the one I am most proud of, because it was the hardest to do
and it was the most outside my comfort zone. But basically I happened.
to know Peter tail a little bit and I knew nick denton, who is the creator, this company cocker in this
two days ago you were, you knew them. Both yad met them both before I knew nick from my american apparel. This and I've been to a party at peters house many years, so I knew them both in these two guys get locked in this
ten year campaign to destroy each other
and
and somehow liquor busily the book starts with them. I one one
I I had like-
lunch at one of their house houses in my dinner
like, I was in both houses on the same day
and I know that yeah and they were to,
and says I gotta talk cause it's an insane story. There are people who don't know basically to them,
in seven, this tat website called gawker, outspeed or till his gay, which you,
was but use private about it and then
he decides
to destroy them for this, but
what they did was in a legal system,
Ten years plotting and secret waiting for them to fuck up and then
two thousand and eleven or twelve day rule
stolen sex tape of hope
whole cargan having sex with his best friends, wife bubbles, loves finder.
Flora, dj, that's the name with another: do it it just like weirder, we're and soviet. They run the stones, exit and peter to your hires illegal team.
Who secretly
hopefully never knows a peters, a part of it to secretly fun
a hundred million dollar lawsuit which they ultimately win and bankrupt, gawker, and then
peter in the bidding in the auction. Like almost gets the assets of the company in the end of it. So is this where he almost gets the assets or he destroys, it can be. Somebody else ends up buying it, like the judge, wouldn't sell it to him, but it's almost a gino,
his polio optimum, so that in in
roman combat the ultimate victory for a general to get only happen like three times
you defeat the other general on the field of battle.
The hand and then you strip their armour from them.
and so he is close to that as you could possibly get like a business world.
and it suits his insane story, which I used as a way of just talking about strategy. Was your book a post mortem or were you in it as it was happening? This is all postmortem, but I I had like I'd read twenty thousand
page of legal documents and I intervene
other people, including hocker, in who shut up shut
A t shirt a whole
can t shirt which in a sense
it was. It was insane story which I just really wanted to tell, and I think I did. I think I did a really good job. I think it's really interesting. I know there's a way I could have done
differently with some more copies, but that wasn't what the story tat. I wanted to tell: how could you something
I gotta make peter till the villain.
Instead, I saw him as like the
fascinating and our hero of the story. Farming sense
like? Even if you don't agree with what he did, I was fascinated with how he did it. It's kind of cool right, yeah yeah, I'm like there's something back, even if it's bad, it's still bad ass, and so I want to
You tell that story which ended up being really. I was fascinated by
How could I met him at the? U s?
What are these huge yeah
when his is a massive dude, his life
is very sad. His
was very sad and this moment
but some of them are now give assent
No, I don't know what's happening at the moment that this happens. You know his life is, I mean he's like
his fallen apart. His wife is left. Him is one of his kids about to go to jail. Caressingly rail, for I killed a guy in a car accident justly.
All the things that famine success can do to a person happens to him and then this most private
What is left on the internet-
and then yeah. He wins this when ends up winning
five years later, when this insane lawsuits and secretly funded.
and I m also just like you- know, lego revenge- is it
is best served cold, but nobody can do it and nobody can wait, you know, and so on,
peter deals in the air,
the patience and the money?
value in need of it. His just I just
I heard about about it. He and he knew that you were writing the book and it was coming out yeah he he he talked to me. So he
He gave me all that, so even he hired this kid and this kid pretended to be.
fun this kid pretended to have a wealthy benefactor whose funding lawsuits, but that we
his intermediaries between huggins legal team.
Until so nobody knew teal tools. Involvement was revealed like three weeks after the verdict, so he pulled off complete and total secrecy.
That's freaking logic. Why did you? What did you
covering a story that, like surprised, even you? Ah, what was over some women just I was
when the break that this dude was there that there this this character,
media and the internet. The deep throat, if you like, the guy, the secret identity, thou hast thou, is pretty nuts theirs
this whole f b. I sting that happened. That was pretty crazy. Here's a funny! So why does this all happen? Why is so basically bubba likes to watch his wife?
they re by other duties as what he gets off so he's secretly filming right, he secretly films or code and having sex with his wife, which is weak
on sanctions, but the reason it gets out is that
a rival dj in florida, who wants bothers spot on the radio breaks into above his office in rummages tourists,
ask and finds the tape and he's the one that leaks the tape. So this whole thing is hawk
ash between these insane personalities happens because one weird florida, dj ones
humiliate another florida dj and it's just the weirdest
is your story that maybe you better now you felt like its unreal, become brothers. Couldn't come up with this? Maybe
it could, but I dunno yeah I mean it's just like it was. The whole thing was, you know, absurd to sell whole thing from start to finish. It's completely absurd. So
Did you get? Did you
Publisher wish bind this thing a little bit.
They gave me like much less than my normally very wet, but I'm ok, fine go endured, yeah
it's been in, like movie turn around her. Ever since I wrote it, but.
Documentary style real, like I come there
after the hunger games, optioned it and then the guy that wrote the big short
he wrote a script. So it's it's been. You know like multiple, crazy actors to each of the rules and that it never happens. Woody
Told me back. I don't know, I don't care, how I don't get housework at offer, its exact, I don't know, there's a lot of meetings are foam
I was never kissed. It sounds very good wild is it was his egg. Then you kind of
back to your you back your routes on the next one right, stillness is the key he commented on reading this thing right now, some little
on this one. In our own wives, we face a seemingly equal number of problems under pulled in countless directions by competing priorities and beliefs in the
We have everything we hope to accomplish personally and professionally sit obstacles and enemies more
luther king Jr observed that there was a violent civil war, reach
within each and every person between our good
in bad impulses between our ambitions and our principles between what
can be and how hard it is to actually get there.
Those battles. In now war, stillness is the river
and the railroad junction through
It's so much depends
the key to thinking clearly-
to see the whole chessboard to making tough decisions,
managing our emotions to identify
the right goals to handle,
high pressure situations to maintaining relationships, to building good habits, to being productive to physical excellence, to feeling fulfilled to capturing moments of laughter and joy. Still,
is the key to just about everything, to being a better parent, better artist, a better investor better.
athlete a better scientist. A better
in being to unlocking all that we are capable of in this life.
As well as hard. Let go on it's funny. I forgot, but actually tell the story of vicksburg in the introduction of that book. Lincoln calls,
all the generals in everyone from the war department has his big mac united.
it's is million plans for how to win this of war. The attic and a kind of plan into this is all these different it and he is, he pointed vicksburg
this. Vicksburg is the key he knew I can the earliest days of the civil war. That was
city that mattered and the bill
serve tune, everything out and law
on what is this strategic objective that matters more than anything else is the main
The main thing like how do you quiet the noise,
internal external, avoid the distraction,
avoid the short term for the technical is to go to lick the essence of what matters that's like them.
their skill of all and that's the one that leaders have to have an athletes have to have like
The game online you shouldn't free, throws
everyone screaming at you. Can you do what you ve done a thousand times, but now
actually counts not get in your own. Had about it. That's that's everything
What other word could you use besides stillness? What
like about stillness? Is it's one of those words as I could? You cannot exactly define it, but you know exactly what it means and that scene,
to be shared across all the traditions like the stoics. Had this word apathy, fair epicurean said this word
iraq's here. But basically,
just means like a freedom from disturbance. Right, like the
even if you are moving, you are still right,
And then buddhism they talk about you. Do you have a cup of butter?
water, you let it sit still. It becomes clear.
so the idea you know is
they're, in almost all the spiritual and religious traditions of some idea of peace and tranquillity and calmness? And if you get there, you know that
where that's? What unlocks? Whatever is that you need to do whether it's like being present
your kids or at some high stress,
high stakes scenario
or your life is on the line? If you're,
everywhere, you know. How did you get in the moment tat your in. Do what you need to do that to me. That's what stones,
What are your protocols for finding that?
I mean on a day to day basis, which is weirdly both the easier in the hardest. When you need to do it to me, it's all about routine and structure,
like what do you do
when you get up. What do you do? First, read second,
do you not do so. I'm a big I'm like a big routine guy,
we have at the same time. Don't you the phone,
my feeling is that only the phone for the first thirty minutes, one arm awake, I try to table,
he's outside we on a long walk if I'm buying
some of our work out by myself, but I disagree
physical? Usually,
journaling. I don't do breakfast and then I
take them to school or whatever I did my might get em
and situate for the day thing and then
then I write and then so.
Like ten
or eleven like everything else,
rest. The days is bonus. For me
have anything I'm worried about you regrets like I've. If I cried
that morning,
Not only am I going to carry that stillness with me to whatever I have to do for the rest of the day, but it's also kind of irrelevant, because I already want that.
I got a question I got, I think actually have been. I have an idea for your next burka. It's the other path,
that ryan holiday took at
american apparel. Ok, we're like
whatever you know whatever was going on there? You just got caught up in it
when we were explaining that morning, routine. I'm like this is amazing that you made it to this situation, where you're waking up at the same time, you're journaling you're hanging out with your kids you're working out you're, carrying on with a nice pleasant life in texas.
I'm like thinking back to when you were nineteen years old, you're working at american apparel, there's mayhem going on there there's models and, and just
drugs in mayhem and money and power and europe
The right at the seat of the emperor and you're there to receive some that it's like
This is amazing that you made it to this spot where,
You can get caught up in all that
I write about this a little bit in the concluding afterward of kurdish conquers. Yet have I been in retrospect clearly caught up in some? Then
coal is too strong a word, but you you get in situations that have an energy and
a reason that you can't get out of hand. That's that's what screws at their moral compass like you get it you can get.
Competing in a game and you
It's so walked into the competition of it or the winning of it that you don't think about whether its
right game or not, and I think that was a good.
I give my twenties a half an hour.
That scene for sure I mean there's more.
Where I remember I was I remember, I was asked to do something,
that I didn't want to do, and so I did
do it. I said I wasn't gonna do it, but I should have
get up more about it.
and I was like well, why didn't I and I was like why didn't want to get fired and then it was like. Well,
I did want to get fired and one to be a writer, some,
trying to not lose a job that I do want to lose.
But also lake, any job that you will get fired for doing. What is obviously the right thing is now
a job that you should want right, and so you know, I think it was
look back in time and as one very young too.
To figure out why I, but I was also just so overwhelmed and busy they didn't. I couldn't get
The outside of the time I couldn't get the outside of it and go
this is insane. This is not healthy.
It is also not what do you want to do with your life?
gotta get out, but we all
however, we have a reasons
we have our reasons and those reasons what I found as they dont age, well
reasons net the reason that you didn't do the brave or the right or the obvious thing like it does it doesn't h wealth
Is it a good assessment to say that you are kind of like that? It kid
the kid gone places were twenty years old. Were you getting,
written about in magazines and stuff, like this year,
and I was also just doing stuff that, like no one of my family had ever done, I didn't even know you could do you know I mean I m,
running marketing, free public, retreating, written crazy, what I could barely job like a fifty three year old seasons like person that Bin
The ringer and you're freaking
twenty years old he was, it was insane, was totally
and we'll be referred to the money to? No, not really that was sort of his tendency will give you the keys to the kingdom, but
really pay. You,
I mean I was actually getting paid, but I wasn't I wasn't. I wasn't making, did you or did you buy a house no way? No. I bought my first house in Austin after I after I left,
however, care gas apartment or whatever he. It was pretty
as a good life is crazy and and you man, and this time I was with
I what we re married after, but basically here and there
United had small open issues, the enemy with it, but basically like
for my wife, is like fuck this I'm out and I
I realized I hadn't written to book. I was like I have. My dream, like all I wanted to do was be a writer and I'm
strong myself I'm.
compromising myself.
compromising my relationship to do
to go to a staff meeting that a company that
as a former owner is literally trying to destroy. This is insane agenda.
this isn't said you.
mentioned, moral compass, the right
Where was where did you developed that? Where did that come from? Was it from the stoics? Was it from
your mom and dad like some
Things like you, put a normal twenty year old, freakin kid in this position and that their going off the rails, like it there's there's no turning back like it's gonna get crazy and it's gonna get real crazy and there are probably not gonna come back yeah you get out of it. I should have spent off the planet
It was too much temptation to much access to dysfunctional
I don't really know I mean I think I just haven't you credit the stoics there there
I stopped the slide at a certain point. I don't want to make it sound like I was some choir boy or something do you know what I mean cause I was due. I mean I've read about shit that I did. I shouldn't have done, but I
still virtues, are courage, discipline, justice and wisdom, and I think it is very easy to think of stoicism messes productivity system.
which I had this personal resiliency system, which is what I think I was most excited about. Particular when I was young. It's like this make
We better. This makes me faster. This makes me stronger, but it's like it's not supposed to make you a better social,
path. You know like that justice is done
important of the virtues, because what is the courage for re in
What are you doing it for a courage in pursuit of it, a cause of the
cause is, is
is empty and hollow now,
I know I which one of your books you say this, but you basically
that there's no eureka moment yeah.
was there anything closer eureka moment where you like you, like
across the room- and you saw something in here just like what am I doing here there was there was some you know it's funny. I read this book while I was there's this book called the harder they fall by this guy named budd schulberg, who wrote on
utter front and dumb great screenwriter inch guy, and it's it's about this corrupt boxing promoter who works with them.
it's like a publicist, and so I'm reading this and you know as a section- and there is like I deluded myself- he says that I could deal in filth and not become the thing I touched, and I
I thought you know. I won't stop, and I wrote this like little. I say to myself with this: you are ever wrote this all down the book and
I remember that as like a pivotal moment, you know where I, where I really
While I was heading down the rather needed to make changes in winter
and that's why it's really important new sheer people stories that you fact check them a little bit right because its
Ever it's clean
an immediate as you want it to be. So I
member that being part of what you know leads to my departure?
So, a couple of years ago I was thinking about this. I told the story something or I'm going to look when I bought that books I bought on amazon. I pull up when I bought it
in two thousand and nine.
Two thousand I left. Five years later, I stay for five warrior
so no win something and then have been on re like knowing what your men to do and acting on it in its continual
tat. You can knowing your heart. We are supposed to do or not supposed to do, but working up the courage to do it is
especially when there's money on the line or status on the line or just
inertia the status quo on. Why so it took me out. It took me a long time to realise that them
it's all about the game to the game that you're playing it seems like. The marketing game must have been fun too, in a fun kind of way, like an immediate gratification kind of way. In a like hey, we pulled this off kind of way and the look look. What we did there seems
that would be a a fun kind,
thing to do as well, yet to pull up a noose.
but our minds, Hugh people talking about something you wheeled into reality, that, like the serve puppet ass, sternness of it, it is very exciting, very excited
just just anything that you're good at is exciting. You just have to go
just cause you're good at it doesn't mean it's a good thing to spend your life on.
In fact, it might not be threatened if you can get wrapped up in that short term. Gratification, I'm sure that's gotta, be that's. Gotta feel good.
scary, to walk away and do other stuff, but because I dropped out of college,
to go like hey? I am going to walk away from this. I was ready to quit like I was like hey, I quit basically and they were like. Let's keep you on, but I was
you quit to go right at first book, and so that seemed that's him.
equally crazy to people at that time. To a twenty four I could have laughed and gotten a job at any other time,
I got a gun, got a job to start up, that than would have been worth
billions of dollars right, so my options would have been worth like I had
I had a lot of marketing guy guide uber. Yet of what I mean
I shall never TIM's hey. Did you talk to my friend travis? Who started this? The start?
If you need some workers- and it's like I so I had, I had all those sort of opportunities, but that wasn't really what I wanted to do. I'm glad you get did get involved in that cause
like it didn't work out?
Next up was lives of the steward,
the art of living from z, Xeno, zeno Zenos either
We know too marks rayless. This is,
gonna history mode and so the year again. The writing these
for you for me,
reading books is just what's in my head. It comes out yeah. It seems so much easier. I'm sorry that you have to write these kind of books bro! No, it's what I love, but it's what you did and it's like well who who were not like what
so. The idea for the book is not what did they say, but who were they?
where they live up to the ideas and where they fall short of the ideas seneca being the most interesting wide receiver,
I interesting seneca rights the most beautifully. He was
so famous as a playwright in
in roman times. Theirs,
from one of his plays as graffiti in palm pay
so he's like the most famous writer in rome
and he is getting excised exiled under these false charges spends in Corsica, where napoleon is from which he portrays. Is this like speak of silk seneca rights?
risk has been this barren horrible rock in the mill. The ocean napoleon born their rights about it. As this his
ways of his childhood, which he always wants to get back to the railways,
let go his exile. Does this horrible thing and is called back and its callback back by that,
mother of the future emperor
this is niro's mere ozma she's. You come back, but you have to be the tutor and adviser to my son, which he does
ordinary like teenage boy, but it becomes.
It was time that nero
all is well with nearer and nearer
becomes emperor and
now is the right hand, man to the most powerful person on earth? Anyhow,
this moral quandary of which have a lot of
who can really to myself included, which is just
this person is awful and evil by him prevented,
them from being as awful and evil as they could be right, where it is
The adult in the rumour you complicit
so he becomes it.
enormously wealthy in working for nine becomes
richest man in rome I just became
plus it arms. For example, if you visit that's how they get you right,
the gifts that you can give back and- and he gets wrapped up in it. You know-
it is never tries to murder, is mom like several times and seneca is, I think, complicit in
one of the worst rendered it. So how do you have the same?
frankly, wise
decent man. A component of this
renders regime I mean, I think he would justify. It-
all the same ways that people have ever justified. Workin for people like that,
but the way they would have done to me like or what they would have done to my family or you don't
think about what it would be like. If I wasn't there
and so he's this immensely complicated, complex figure. That is both the philosopher, but all
has these ambitions this desire? That puts him in conflict with his own ideas and ideals, and then
He does break with. Neuron is ultimately implicated in. It
Conspiracy against neuron pennies
oh sends his gun,
to demand senecas suicide,
and seneca. Has this sort of socrates chrysolite moment he does it, but then
he ever there's all there's something that is inherently performative about it, that hasn't
wrong right to everyone, since that he was, he was both
both brilliant and brave, and then also some
part of it and now to show monsieur border exactly exact, so he's just you know, just endlessly fascinate.
Yeah this book right here called about face?
colonel David worth, there is a
the up rising stars in the in the army and t just can't take it anymore and his key feels like,
complicit in this war, that is being fought over the wrong way and we're not going away
if we keep fighting in this way and the death of speaking out in the press
and they were drummed out of the army. But this is something I talk about a lot. It's that exact same thing like you're here,
are you the person like if he would have stayed in, he would have been the person that could have said hey. We need to change the way, we're fighting this now in charge of a brigade now in charge of a division, and now I can help
Ten thousand soldiers do a better job and stay safer, but he just you know no
I'm getting out, I'm in a television what's going on and that's a
tough decision to make, because the moment
You leave. Are your powers gone
The EU is there a chance that there's this huge backlash and people get on board
was it it was the marine that was with johns
and mcnamara here
its prolonging the heel. He was like the same way of like like if
Everyone says I should have done more, but if I would have to
my position, I would have been in the news for twenty four hours and then that would be that yeah. It's it's.
so complicated, so easy to charge on the outside, but you don't know
I imagine my general matter sousa your old line who carries
really with them everywhere it goes. I imagine he was wrestling with the exact same things that seneca was wrestling with like politics. Aside, like
personality was, he must have been. He is as different from
the administration he served as you can imagine, and he asked to ask in a sort of who and what to my
Did you do my duties lie? What are my obligations right and then, who comes after me? It's so there's dessert.
Incredibly morally complex question, yeah and yeah who comes after
and once I'm gone gone then even
general matters as
immensely popular as he is. I mean just of as a popular human figure. General mattresses, all of the most famous
kind of modern military humans and
you have the administration like. Should there was a little bit of a boss, but I mean:
the decision to have their big impact that big of an impact and yet
black city of
well, I'm I'm the whole.
My fire till it makes a difference. That's how that's how
that's how they make you complicit right like everyone here, it's always fault. It's always problematic. When you compare hitler but like everyone knew, Hitler was a problem. All of his generals thought I was your age.
And they all hope someone else would do something about it. Great
and
and so nobody did credits, this sort of the tragedy of the com,
is collective called a collective action from everyone.
To come together and do it,
the sacrifices only matter. If, if enough people do it.
But where does that leave you as the individual near where and where does it start? Yes, if there's an ego, the active shoe
if we all mob the active shooter we'll get him but he's going
three of us and so who's gonna, be there
first three, that's rolling in an
look at american apparel, I mean like I stuck around for much longer than I should have and therewith there were moments that should have been redline moments, but if I were
left I wouldn't have also been able to after they fired him, to make
a lot of changes to two I wouldn't have been able to, but is that so
can I tell myself to what myself off the hook you know
am I not on the hook as I was twenty three and I should have been in the position to be with. You know it's it's complicated, but I think
you have to be asking yourselves these questions and, like I think it was
Admiral recovers is current confucius, pretty says like
obligation of every individual is to act like the fate of the world rests on your shoulders, which is that you have
act as if your decision does matter like you have to act on principle, you can't
everyone is a pragmatist there.
if everyone is, is only going. I'm only going to do this if it's a hot, I know it's a hundred percent going to be effective, for I know it will make a difference. I mean.
Everyone operated that way. No change would ever actually happen. You need
This depends on the rational man. They say right,
like the person who says I'm going to do it. I don't care about the results. It's the right thing to do, I'm going to say it. I'm gonna blow the whistle pub like we cannot function without those individuals.
Compare and contrast. Example, I bring our purposes
the have them the movie band of brothers observers, band brothers course. Most people have seen it because fantastic but dick winners,
at the end of the war, the wars and and they
He gets ordered by the colonel, take a recall on across the river, and so
He goes well. Why renew that isa? Could I set up. Take
recon element across the river one guy gets killed. Couple of guys get,
did they come back next night?
causes, take another regatta will prosper and he's like yes,
It's a good idea. There's not the war's going to end blah blah blah nope, take a a all across the river roger that sir,
go into the basement of a building in they drink wine and they dont go across the river again.
And that's an example of where, like he could have stood up for himself and he would have gotten fired and they would put somebody else that will take them across the river and put guys at risk again. That's just a
Would count example to the
fact that when you draw a line in the sand- and you say nope- I refuse to do this- your then you don't have any control anymore and you just gotta be willing to accept that a yes man is going to be put in that position immediately and
they'll, be no shelter and no buffer for the troops. Yeah
but there is a certain ego and see
your complex in the eye
I'm the one fishing
papers off the desk on the one counter mending the bad orders.
Would be lost without me. That's that's why
bad leaders exploit that sense of
that's what they need that that's what sustains bad regimes and bad leadership pride so its attention also
you're saying do
winners is like perpetuating this ban
leader being in possession. Does he doesn't stand up and say you know what I refused to do this. You are just a few.
The go: hey, I'm I'm preventing them
crash in the car constantly world the car keeps going and eventually it does crash, because you're not actually the saviour and you can't actual like in it.
I invariably they're they're gonna find
in that sense them right
and are you just?
they make a long on it's. I don't know the answer
but will you I don't, I don't think it's one of those situations where you can see here is the right answer, because.
Did you know, you'd have to be older, run both those courses in out in
led to find out where it actually leads, and
even when people, when people talk about telling the truth right,
discussion I have in
people say. For example, oh your wife doesn't cook you, my wife, my left extra check and right, as is the big joke and water,
You tell her. Why don't you tell the truth? Isn't it wouldn't be better just to tell the truth, and so I can tell you that
it's not a great option right. If you tell your wife, she spends all day making you check in and getting ever going to the store and get buying everything. Squared away and cooking mg overlooks a little bit. So it's a little bit dry and I can.
That the right answer is not,
It's not gonna, make things better when you tell her the truth. So what am I saying line and what I've come to discover? Isn't it
Actually, no, you should tell the truth, and you should tell the truth to yourself on the truth that you should tell yourself is that you are very lucky to have this woman that has made you this meal and you are being a cop
cleaning whining lose her for not just being thankful that you,
chicken I'll, be it a little bit dry too.
For dinner say thank you because that's what the truth is, you should be thankful. Tell
aim the weapon of truth. At yourself same
with a radical candour right. Radical candor like oh,
ryan. You didn't get this project on time. Hey! I don't exist
that you are our failing with your time once
What I should do is aim that radical counter myself witches pay heavy given rhine the support that he needs have, I said of x.
to him. Why this time line is important
and is he the right person for the job that I place him in the job? Just because I didn't take the effort. So there's a you. If you aim the truth at yourself, it's going to be much it's going to be a much more powerful tool and it actually will be the best course of action, and so so much I think radical candor and honesty or whatever. This is really just an excuse.
as for bennydeck addresses that doesn't really help anyone know
that's. Why you aim it yourself it it. Doesn't you won't be it
you'll be actually it it'll. Come
asked the way it should, which is the truth
The situation is you you're the problem
It's true or not is separate question from whether this is important or not whether its worth
talking about or not, is
hill, you wanna die honour, not you know, and that discretion
super lawyer. I gotta section in leadership.
Emergent actors who don't care yeah.
while ryan wants to do it this way, but I think we should just wear a hat. I actually don't care how we're doing it. Well, you, you said: that's, not! No, that's fine! I don't care, like. I believe me,
here, but I don't care about these little things. It don't matter with
my wife said this to me too. It's like what matters being
or the relationship, whereas
more important than the relationship, and so often
it's very easy to want to be right, or
one of which your opinion whatever in and you don't realize it it's. These are pyrrhic victory.
The truth is the true
is the relationship is more important. So why are you talking about something that is because the real truth is, the relationship is more important than than who took out the garbage right so get on with it, and next one
jumping in to read too many books. He wrote a lot, but I know I had to make a conscious decision like okay. What do we do? Are we to do fourteen different podcasts, because we don't know how many books you've got but you're giving me a run for the money I actually know. I think you've got me beat I dunno. What's your?
how many books of urine, I think it's twelve or thirteen?
they think of the job
speaking of general matters. This is for
book. Courage is calling. This is what
twenty courage is calling what
if you up at night general James madison, once asked by a television report or before the question was quite finished, you he was already answering. I keep people awake at night
It was
Answer that capture the philosophy by
This warrior and every warrior before since lives their life
was a fee of orphans of initiative,
of intimidating the enemy, rather than being intimidated, of striking fear striking period rather than being struck by it. This is why,
his troops were commanded to set up and sleep in a v shaped camp at night,
he pointed in the direction of the enemy.
It's why he famously cash eared and otherwise
excellent offer office
in the gulf war, foregoing too slow
to borrow a phrase from the british general sir Douglas hague.
Loser in my opinion, as medicines core is the trade that
All great soldiers must have a sincere desire to engage the enemy. He expects nothing less.
From his troops. What
we are going to wait for your opponent to prepare. Are you going to give them an advantage, no way in the civilian world? We call this initiative in sports. We call it the will to win and borrowing
the brutal world of war. We get this expert,
an killer instinct is in power,
people to have a cure instinct thou courage, one
supposes the other and nobody achieve great things in war, business sports life without either of them. The spartans never asked how many of the enemy there were only where, because
they were going to attack any ways they were in it to win,
yeah. My note on general egg
I actually hate. I love
with all the world war. One general staff there, there horrible
he was the only american ones,
The design of the americans, we're ok in the marine corps, went in there and actually were like hey hold on a second. This is frequent stupid, but hague butcher. They call them just now.
Let this carnage and futility, and you know it
oh disgusting, to me there.
He's, like your coding, hear from him as like a sincere desire to engage the enemy, and all he did was like send
Two million british to their death is just awful,
I never never said hey. Maybe this thing that we're doing maybe the way we're doing is not working. While I was there yes having
often says, mindset and then running into a ball
why didn't different things? But I think that's what that's? What makes grant create great? That's what defines
tip the balance in the civil war is grant realises. I have work
defensive. We're gonna lose, but we
more men, more manpower, more money, the greatest
industrial might in the world. We
take the word of the enemy, with the with the wind,
any didn't. You know all my fear. Grand stories are about that there's than we did a sick,
part series on the civil war to call the civil war excursion
the au, six more timber. My friend J D, you know he's he's a pricking civil war maniac.
Just the civil war in general, it's just an incredible thing to contemplate going back
the book. Here you say it's been long held that there are two kinds of courage: physical and moral. Physical courage is a knight riding into battle. It's a firefighter rushing into a burnt burning building, it's an explore setting out for the arctic, defying the elements, moral courage as a whistle blower taking on powerful interests. It's
Truth, teller, who says what no one else will say: it's the entrepreneur going into business for themselves against all odds, the marshal courage of the soldier and the mental courage of the scientists, but it does
dick philosopher deceive. These are actually the same thing. There are two kinds of kurds: there's only one the kindly
but your ass on the wine in some way.
Literally perhaps fatally in other cases, it's figuratively or financially, courage is risk. It sacrifice commitment, perseverance, truth determination when you do the thing
others cannot or will not do when you.
Do the thing that people think you shouldn't or can't do
Otherwise it's not courage. You have to be,
braving something or someone. Courage is calling
What made this the next of the virtues that you want to hear
I also I'm doing this series is to purchase here its courage, discipline, justice in wisdom. I felt my courage is the most
accessible and the most
exciting the most inspiring, so I started
I started there. I know you can't you can start with justice. I knew
discipline was the one I was most excited. The discipline was the one that I felt like I have the clearest hook on. I got.
Lot of tax, when people were, I guess you must have been when it actually came out. Discipline is destiny. I got all kinds of texts like yo. What's up with this, some of them were like. Oh, this is cool. Some are like yo he's stealing your stuff. I got a few of those which I thought was category. Well, you you pick the perfect or otherwise. Why did you call it? Discipline equals freedom and not discipline is freedom and that's.
I originally said
you know that's what I originally set. I guess that's what I originally said and I think it's because
bigger the same thing.
there are one gives you the other. So this one
this. Not it is it but it'll equal that so
I guess that's why you're we did the same thing in extreme ownership, so the four laws of combat leadership are covered, move simple power.
As next year and decentralized command, and there
in the same tents food they dont quite fit together to dramatically- and
I think our publisher was like you should change simple to simplify.
And because, in its an action that you take cover moves and action that you take prioritizing actually next, as an actor,
you take, I think, actually had something for decentralized commanders. Well, that would make it a not a thing, but an action in life.
I talked about it. We can achieve came the fact that, like
This is what I wrote like. This is the stuff that I was saying. So, let's just stay with what we wrote and you just kind of have to deal with it. So to say
They display was freedom thats. What I originally said when I was
explain to these young seal officers like this is
you need to do. If you have discipline its can equal freedom for you and your physical life you're here
your cognitive life, you your platoon
like the more discipline you have, it can equal more freedom.
Originally sought. I really struggled with the title that book, because it often rendered by the ancients has ten
it's like that's the name of the version, but as
I am obviously not calling at that. Nobody knows what that means. If they do not want a means, they could the temperance movement which would which is what band
alcohol in america. So it's already super popular cause. I was like, I wasn't going to call it temperance and then
one of the working patterns was only the disciplined are free.
and then it became that I really didn't want to use this one cause. I didn't want to be anywhere near what you did, because you so perfectly talent. So it's going to be called self discipline is salvation, and then I fell
salvation for it has his religious connotation, but also it wasn't.
his salvation. Wasn't the right word
you know it's like a bit like it went as far as like I saw covers with that title like that's how far we went down the thin self self discipline salvation yeah! That's what because an end. It is important that eurozone my discipline is discipline
in self discipline also mean discipline like in the military. There is discipline immune
force it on other people. Well, if you do that, you're, not a good leader, but there
is this virus discipline? But it is a fact right, like there's discipline in the ranks and and imposed discipline. This is how
eventually had to break up to explain to people, because
You know you do your best. You can, with your title and you stick with jacko sticks with this political freedom, and so you get some some leaders
there that goes cool. I want freedom in my organization, I'm an imposed discipline on everybody, and then you have to go
I can say: well we're not talking about impose discipline, because, if you're imposing discipline on people they're going to reject it, there's all these problems that you're going to have, and it will
work out well, but I
It was one of the it's gotta be self disciplined people need to understand celts. So that's where it's going and then it just wasn't working and then so there there's a greek expression character. Is fate
right, which means like your character, determines what you're gonna accomplish we're gonna, be that that your character, its
monistic in this sense, like if you're a bad character, you eventually do bad. That's so important to remember
and so, and what so unfortunate? Sometimes that takes like three decades now,
and the problem is when people here fate, they didn't fate.
it mean what it means to people now. So so sometimes act
it is rendered as character is destiny like character, determines who you're going to be what you're gonna do. So I was like that's that's. What discipline is right discipline? It's both.
Determines whether you will be successful or not, but it is also there's something inherent
the great about discipline. So if you go down fighting you might lose, but if,
were this: there is a form of greatness, even in the loss, right leg and so
So I ended up. You know it fuck it visible incessantly. If it's the is the right title had to stick with it, and yet it was it. I was
artist of them to title dear. Well,
Here's a little chunk that show me a man who isn't a slave seneca demanded pointing out
that even a sleigh, even slaveowners were changed
responsibility. The institution of slavery
One is a slave to sex. Another two money, another two ambition,
all, are slaves to hope or fear the fur
that he said was to pull yourself out of the ignorance of your dependency. Whatever happens to be, then you need it.
Clean, get clean from your mistress from europe.
dixon to work from your lust for power. Whatever in the modern era we might be,
looked on cigarettes or soda likes on social media or watching cable news
doesn't matter whether it socially acceptable or not. What matters is whether it's good for you.
Eisenhower's habit was killing him, as so many of ours were to cause you'd do in earlier in the book you talk about eisenhower, quit
smoking if superman
when do is alive life, and yet he gave himself in order. He said because I gave myself an ordered slowly
imperceptibly? But even if they
weren't, even if they were harmless. Why should we take
orders from our belly or our crotches or
the device that seems almost physically connected to us. At this point, the body. Can
in charge. Neither can the habit, we must be the boss
gave himself in order to quit smoking. A lot at seven
forty years two packs a date.
I had a guy came up to me. So I
a guy right
when I earlier on gas was like use of a nail biter like bit his nails
bleeding like in meetings just I couldn't stop there and
He asked me like what he should do or whatever and I was like stop fighting and then you know rope act like I stopped by like good.
Normal, and then I had a guy came up to me at the first muster. This is really cool. Guy came up to me.
You know who hang out and work
talking to dinner, actually he's come up to talk to me
And he says, like I'm, going to tell you something right now that I'm like embarrassed to tell you you're going to think it's super lame, but I just want to tell you anyway, so you know what's going on, I was addicted to video.
Games as where does that might sound? I would play twice
fourteen eighteen hours of video games a day that was my entire life and
after the horrible, and I heard you
I tell this guy just stop biting his nails and he stopped and I to stop playing video games after. However, many years
and I sold all my video game cartridges or whatever anna
my counsel and I use that money to come here and
this event with you, and I want to tell you thanks freakin
give yourself an order, man, sure yeah, so
As other line, he says no one is fit to rule, who is not first master of themselves,
and so this idea I think that's what eisenhower would so powerful
but eisenhower is that few
he was literally the most powerful
and I'm just imagine to be the american president at the beginning.
the cold war.
Do you one world one after you won't get everyone? Will you what's it like you, not america, you there will never be as a singularly as powerful person, again, probably anywhere that churchill wasn't.
reckless churchill gets knocked off his enemies and also
Eisenhower had nuclear weapons, I don't know brim, had them yet ready.
you're just and then there's a
if moment where the united states is the
the country in the world with nuclear weapons. So
singularly had one individual effective. We had the power
destroy the earth
and their eyes
his mother had given him? Ah TAT, bible, verse? I keep that take it. The city is not as great as he that conquers his anger right in the eye
that that, if your master of yourself that's stoic idea, that's them. That's the great
the empire, the stoics. It said, the greatest empires self control self command
and you realize, there's way more people,
been in charge of large armies are large empires or large companies or large fortunes.
Sir followings.
There are more of those people than people who are truly self contained
sounds like you know me. I like the disk
and of the monk, maybe
stronger than the discipline of the
great conqueror world leader, and you need that back.
and like the stoics, said it. You know, I think, every philosopher,
every came should be a philosopher, but he said at the outset, every philosopher must be a king weep.
Person and this idea that, like
You need your leaders and you need your thinkers to be in command,
of themselves, because, if they're not
qualifications? Do they had to tell other people what to do and how to do
so bizarre that people get into
positions when they dont have control of
themselves. He had you think you're, so freaking crazy. When you go characters they, how do you think
We're gonna get where you know. Of course it was confirmed that way. I've
point two guys, and I work with now was an analogy with jp to now and
he had like you when I first met for the first time he had like a broken hand, right click
weak as a cracked. Somebody- and I just
reader. I said a man like lose
in your temper is a weakness and what was cause the reason I remember this cause he took. He told me you know he's like you said that me and I was like: oh damn cuz, you know he.
growing up. He sees his dad. His dad loses his temper. This looks like
superpower
when you lose your temper? Everyone listen to you. Everyone just does what you said and they get in line and that and that's the way that seems like a good superpower that I kind of want to so boom lose your temper
superpower and that's J p in
he's now like twenty
two years old or something it is working with me for the first time like losing your tempers, a weakness
we never thought I'd, never
rather deities like oh anything,
it just like. Oh if you don't
again. Did that change overnight? No,
gettin troublesome or yes to
We have to keep in check if he does absolutely, but it was like
beginning or failing to keep these young. How was I probably twelve
than years older than him, but that I
that discipline
emotional discipline? Physical disappoint, like that is what allows you to be good at making decisions good
worship, ship, good it moving through life. Like
all boils down to discipline it.
Weird paradox of masculinity that, like crying, you know,
scared a new one of these emotions as weakness,
but then getting so angry that you punch walter, you break something. That's like strength, but their this fundamentally the same, then it's a baby, yeah ready,
handle when I'm feeling right now and in fact
there's probably actually something at least
sort of
cry, has some kind of emotional vulnerability to it like there. It's almost, I can add,
actually buy that there's something good and that is as do stuff the sadness down it comes out. You know,
and so this idea that it's about suppression is not the way to think about it either. That's that's missing. Would stoicism? Isn't it's like
I'm feeling something. Is this a good feeling,
to act on or not
Why am I feeling this? How can I pray
has this been done,
what we're doing right? It's it's having the emotional awareness to go. This is triggering for me.
I don't like this, but it's not approve.
pray for me to do x Y, see, that's that's what stoicism is like it's the maturity and this
self discipline and the self awareness to not
be the victim of those emotions, like, I think, there's a huge
difference between being angry and doing something out of anger. Justice
being sad, is totally fine or being grief. Stricken is totally fine
If, five years later, you still can't get out of bed like you need to get some help,
You know with death,
If you're so depressed, you don't wanna be alive, you gotta, be you gotta go talk to someone about dear. I went through a whole string or one park ass a long time ago.
Because a little bit a backlash, but basically we're talkin
a second our emotions and with what what does a baby a b
be can't control their emotions. They get mad. They gets out like this were happens and to educate older. You control your motions more now there.
We times where you can
control your motions. For instance, someone do you care about
eyes and now you're getting hit with these waves emotions, and that's
makes it so scary to grow
when people, because for the past
thirty, two years we ve been able to control their emotions and all of a sudden there dad dies and they can control their emotions and its hitting them these we're times it so they feel like they can. They can
get themselves together. If you like, there's something wrong with them and what I
I am happy to be able to tell them. Is that over time you will regain control those and that will start to dissipate in those waves of emotional become weaker.
for time and that's not a bad thing is actually to think and your processing it. Never comic
about that. But
on some other part cast. I was like: oh
you gotta, stifle those emotions and there's, like our whole category of emotions, that you should break and stifle. You know when you get
as to offer your wife, because she did take out the garbage or whatever the thing is, and you should stifle those emotions. That's what you need to do and boy did. I get a bunch of people saying if you stifle all your emotions, you're going to know there is a category of emotions that you should stifle and there's other emotions that are going to come out and that's
If find it. In fact itself we have, of course, and and yet, if you're interested
nothing them down or pretending. We don't exist it just.
putting them on a credit card, they're gonna pop out at a different time. But but if you ask
every urgent impulse. If you share every thought that you have review, you can't
you allow yourself to be overwhelmed by every temptation or opportunity you have
blow up your life. You're going hurt other people, you know so the ability to go,
feeling this. That's it
feeling or an inappropriate feeling or the stoics say
I'll think about higher going to feel the morning after right like like,
drinking his fine on the way down. The problem is the hanover and you have to add your car
completing an emotion or thought and action? You have to go houses gonna age
The houses can age and pen the abyss
If you go oh yeah, like here's, what I feel I'm right to feel this way
provide tight this all out in an email, and I hid sent its can be fuckin awkward,
three days from now and to see that person where they're gonna hold
against me forever right or if I quit in a flurry. Where does that leave me
and so the ability to be in command of
command of your emotions but command of your actions.
dead of your emotions being in command of your actions, that's what we're talkin
yeah there's another piece that comes into play when we talk about truth earlier in black telling the truth. Another thing that you ve got to look at is: where does the truth and up from a strategic level or tactical level? So I can tell,
the truth in this email, but I'm about to send you, because you went behind my back on and did something, and I can send you it's the truth right now and it's
make me feel good tactically. At this moment to tell you this, but now we don't have a relationship anymore. Now it can count on you, and why says the truth is in a law
Long term view vista
matter, that's the truth. The true
fears, I'm being petty about something. That's what the truth is that
truth when I aimed at you
probably not going to work out well for me and think of the truth over a strategic time line instead of a tactical timeline, people make
all kinds of emotional decisions on the tax.
We'll timeline and they're not gonna, work out well in a strategic in a strategic outlook.
Lincoln would write these letters that could call this hot letters. Libya, like this is
breathing that's wrong with you, but clellan you know, and then it would. It would sit in the desk and he would not mail it ray and that's really
that's the emotional self control that we're talking about he's right, differ,
everything in its good that he felt everything and its good they didn't pretended. He didn't that he didn't feel it
It would have vomited all over the next time you saw, but then he goes.
Is this what I want to send to my you know to my general right now and where's it going to leave us and do I have a replacement yet and blah blah blah blah blah and
ability to just not take the action on the emotion was asked
you'd, be a saint. Just just don't do that
You know I mean feel at all. Just don't try not to act on it,
good, good, lessons and speed.
Of good lessons, eventually, what wanted this twenty
wanting to you roll into some kids books. I dare tell em, I think, as the first book you sent me, is it it's not the cop
I couldn't find the actual copy that you sent me but yeah you sent me this book, the boy who would be
and then you wrote another one called the girl who would be free, so the girl who so the boy will be king is euralia. Yes at its core.
it's really cool, the way that you wrote it its basic,
we are a lot of stoicism. They mean little events, it less.
this being taught to him along the way great simple, read for kids.
Learn lessons this
Do you have kids like I did? Yes, I wrote it. I wrote it in march of two thousand and twenty during the pandemic. When I was like I'm stuck here, how can I teach my kids about stoicism?
knowing that they have zero interested philosophy whatsoever, and so
mark is really a story. So incredible you give a boy
selected to be the emperor of Rome?
and somehow it doesn't end in tragedy in disaster. I just wanted to tell I wanted to tell that sort of an all ages way an end, because I mean it
it's really Marcus's life is a parable of leadership pipe. What does it mean to be selected for greatness and to prove it
self worthy of it. That's that's what marcus's stories and then what
bout, the girl who would be free now. Is this what
this story based on it? I know in the book
she's a slave, yes and becomes free here. Is this an app
practice its epictetus version it set out. So I wanted to tell epictetus story, but
also I really
like the idea that stoicism is just for doing so
did tell a female version of the story and, unlike epictetus, is dead.
Treatises isn't a boy's named epictetus just means acquired one so
I can also tell the I'll just tell us render epictetus is a girl which is interesting because,
is rufus whose epictetus teacher rights this essay you right around the turn of the millennium
about how philosophy should be taught for boys and girls is virtue, doesn't have a gender is like you, don't care? What sex your horses or ear
got you just care if they can do the job right and
that's what we're virtuous cycle, the job of a human being, so I just I just decided
How epictetus is a girl, so
People who wanted to teach stoicism to there
see yourself in stuff is really important and so
I didn't want to do another male version and then some people are really upset about it as controversial as if
was this serve gender ideology thing when really it just saying like doesn't
if your boy or girl. This is what it is meant to be.
person to be in command of oneself which epictetus historiae so perfect, with like marcus's
It's been out about marcus, is powerful and rich, and has all this axis epictetus
following the same philosophy has nothing you know. As
shitty of a life, as you can imagine for a person, that's what epictetus is born in
a slave and the roman empire? He he's
and by someone in euros court and keep
basically looks around one day and goes. I'm freer than all of these people
because he's in command of himself and they're not watches he walked
he's a man suck up to narrows cobbler like to get
says he does
My life is way better than that guy's life, and I think this is
ultimately resonates was stockdale. Stockdale
is introduced to epictetus in college is walking the halls of Stanford. The navy sends him to to stanford in this fighter pilot who's. A professor there goes, have you ever read epictetus and he's like what the fuck are you talking about and it changes his life.
I a good epictetus destroy want this one. Have you interview di dave, carry no you use.
It is eighty now he's one of the pure debbie's, with stockdale full after or a skinny shot down couple months after
tommy sitting in his cell? You know they were tap tap messages to each other, and their message is like stockdale says: remember. Epictetus is too
checks, and he just what are you talking like the idea,
dear that does like twenty year old fighter pilot would be familiar like stockdale had so steeped himself in this
no exact. That's like a thousand the prison with them. They ve been like room
Darko. Remember epictetus, who the hell? Are you talking about exactly exactly and then he comes to understand. It means epictetus, says in every situation we have some freedom of choice, some things that are up to us and some things that are not at us and he was saying focus on what part of
It is up to you right, which is the essence of I think what so philosophy as him. What need stockdale so great? That's what the soccer paradoxes near her and at, but I just love the idea had so
the sooner it out about it, that he just assumed everyone was familiar with.
Secure a slit philosophers slip from two thousand years ago. Yeah, that's one of them, one other.
we best lessons that I've reinforce
on myself with this part gas was, you know, you know, captain charlie plum, another guy there was in it was in the hollow held
and then one of the rules that he told me about.
Was a
You were near it with your cell mates and
you're cellmate because they,
They would usually have a cellmate for like three months, maybe six months, maybe a year, and then it gets someone new, knew, I'd, get rotated out and
every time a new cellmate would come and it was like the newest
few of a move.
In a new book and like they just got to learn everything about this person what their favorite food was and how they grow up. They. They would know
everything about each other's lives,
but also your living in a cell or some other. Here
other human being,
and they had a rule
and the rule was, if your cell mate does something that annoys you it's your fault
and to me that is the ultimate like
ownership you
in its the stoicism. Very
Clearly, oh you
Ryan is my cellmate here
above me in the bank and he's picking his toenails, as I'm sure,
go to sleep.
And it's annoying me
it's my fault and I need to readjust my thought pattern
and be okay and not allow
his actions to annoy me, that's on me, I wonder if
came through stockdale via epictetus, because one of my favorite calls from as he says,
remember when you take offence that you are complicit
being offended there, you go because they just said it
you chose to see it as mean or directed at you or hurtful like that at the essen,
Stoicism is the idea that, like things or objective right, equity says it's just our opinion
is about them. They are not, and so like them picking there
It's not annoying my wife who said this to me. She does. I can't frustrate you.
that was very frustrating to hear, but it's true right, like they're doing the thing, and then
I am saying it is frustrating right. It is like the fresh
question is: is it you meet their thing? Is that because it's not funny
to me when I put my nails right like when I do it sought an oil slick as the event as events we say. I don't like that. It's gross. What we make up hurtful
politically correct what this is all on up there. It is what it is
it is all on us in the end,
We should take ownership of. One might say that sounds like a broken
Let us have the present time.
This is where we're at and finishing justice now is just working on it. This morning, when I went to go into coming out twenty four twenty four
how many, how many hours a day do you write like this
in thirty minutes. I just my fingers like I make a positive contribution. Everyday
lies now. Are you a thousand words a day?
It takes an hour. Ok and that's not
today, but that's what I'm gonna morgan about possess on doing and I think
I could go down to a half an hour day. I've never
the thought of just positive contribution. That's a low bar! I like it, though, that low bar can really make it easy to. You know belly up to the computer with tiny tim ferris told me once he said, just a couple of crappy pages a day.
and so, if you make it because it right now,
that's not right in a more editing and final exam definitely started a new chapter that wasn't there before, but I think we're
How can be hard because
right now. I actually is more important than I'm eliminating words and writing worrier. So it's just like did it do to get better today
the thing that I found that really walks me into this mode is that if you
if you're anything, I wrote a thousand words today tomorrow I can
mediately. I can start
immediately. I dont have to review anything. I know exactly where I left off. If I'm
We literally one extra day. I have to
back and read, maybe you know the last thousand words I wrote maybe the last five hundred, but I definitely am going to have to reinvest and reengage my brain in and redeploy into this mode, whereas if it's, if it's from my mind
and I do the thing that Hemingway did, which was like stop in the middle of a stop in the middle of a sense. I won't quite do that I'll finish the sentence, but an outright like where I'm going it up.
a fraser three or four words. You know. Did you know,
move towards the building, take it down and
whatever, whatever thing I'm going to write next I'll kind of just know where I'm going so that we can get back into a really easily but yeah that if you
take more than a day for me, I'm just
I have to go back and reengage the whole frequenting when I
to do so, I ride in the morning and get it done, and then you know I'm working out later, I'm hanging out going for a walk or swimming
Whatever ideas
my head and I write those down and I dont go back and work on them like I wait until the next. Like?
so you want to be excited about what you have to do for the text
you wanted to do list for tomorrow, not
To do that to me and my guts, I'm saving it so
you're always like ready to have been fired for exactly
so why so like it's up to speed up? That's when you re not now one in the meantime, you ve got right
holiday dot net. He s wearing
who can find you also day
stoic dot com, both
those things have facebook, twitter and the crown instead
at ryan holiday and
daily stoic add they restock the also review to genoa today at daily stoic as well. So
every day I do like to the daily stood.
book is one page a day, but then I'd just do a free email version every day I have for eight years and then there's a podcast version of it. So I just it's just
going. So I do the writing practice everyday. I have the email, so that's
if we limit it to everyday couple a week.
I don't do like a video version of the air, but
but you can listen to the email or read the email for friends, one dose of stars
Oh, you can listen to the email on the pact. That's got guess I'll, just as yet back, but you do longer. Podcast said you interviews to consular interviewed. Maybe if I know you came on right in the middle of it, we were again after it, so
People can find you. You got freaking eight eighty four books that they can read your books
kids books for adults, calendar books, journal books, you got you got some frequent
which is outstanding, and I think that gets us up to speed. Does it we got him and thanks. This is crazy. Carry sir! You got any questions and I do have one question so we we talk a lot about open, mindedness versus closed mindedness and I was just trying to figure out. I am a fan.
Stoic philosophy and a followed your stuff for a long time right. So I'm just curious: is there a kind of a direct quarrel?
worry too, that open mind vs closed mind where open minded, you're practicing humility, you're, being open to others, ideas, close minded, you're kind of using judgment and shutting down as opposed to hearing somebody else help he might like this market
meditations, he wrote some remember. Things are not asking to be judged by you and he says you always have
the power of having no opinion and I think
that a law, I politically culturally my kids, like some
the conflict that my parents grown up, was then
opinions about shit, that just didn't matter and those conflict pull this apart rake
like my hair, my music or whatever side
You don't need to have an opinion about it. It doesn't matter
and you don't need to have an opinion about ninety nine point. Nine percent of the things that are happening in the world, particularly other people's private,
choices in their private life, and I just see people
make themselves so miserable, but it's it's
worse than that, because they make other people miserable to do. You know what I mean or having strong opinions about who they are
Mary or how they should live or how they should raise their own kids. It's like people and
asking you for advice on how to live,
and it's called it's called self discipline for reason
to go back to our stock, like you did
People did not ask for your standards. You can't hold them accountable for not living up to them. You know like
someone say, I dont yuck, someone else's young. I think about dialogue.
pretty good will help people to that ban. Sucks, ok,
You know what
Why does it bother me that they like that? But at heart it s our I'm, I'm trying to get as it
You become rhetoric as you like having a pin inspection,
and I'm trying to have less opinions version.
The open minded thing I mean for me. There is a constant battle of your mind.
it close because it's safer it's easier. I don't have to listen to you. My ego wants to be close. My ego doesn't want to hear your opinion. My ego thinks my opinion better than yours so work.
They closing your mind and the goal.
To constantly pry that thing open, be open, other people's ideas be open, other people's perspectives, and it's gonna make you.
a much more it's
making it's gonna give you a better understanding of what goes on in the world
a lot of that has driven through humility, obviously, but keep that mind opened.
right any closing thought now. Man
Haven't you ever talk as much in my life, except for doing an audio, but rapid upon
well: that's. Where do it? I guess reset said records.
Thanks for joining us man. Manufacture, get down here. Thanks for sharing your lessons, learned, of course, and and thanks for capturing these lessons for people and getting.
there in a way that their digestible and access,
or to people that need them. It will help them and help them stay on the path of discipline
while it's a total honor. For me, I've loved your stuff for a long time, since I heard about it from TIM. So this is really cool for me. Right on man appreciate it and with that ryan holiday has left the building,
Carry you and a little family at the end there after running o f, really stop him. I didn't want. The bags here are, of course, Madame a reality found in just don't. You know stoke philosophy in general, but rise these.
Pushing the stuff for a long time, and definitely
popularized for sure this. In the modern day, the f b I picked up by life or the stoics,
when it first came out in twenty two or think, and I've had marcus Aurelius meditations for a long time, so yeah
like I said, wouldn't when we were talking, I guess we can cover it
I guess we can cover meditations, but
it's like a muscle to do an audio books, read that self evident, for I mean they're, they're, awesome, so yeah, so the whole thing off
but that, but that the agent lessons still being applicable hundred percent today
and it's real cool too.
You were saying you hadn't really heard much many people,
hawk with right about, like the whole rocketing miracle apparel, like that's crazy store. Historians is awesome in that first book. He wrote trust me
I am lying. I have never even heard of that book yeah. So it is now. It is definitely an interesting book and if the like, he said you can you can read it and be,
like wow. I can't believe people do this review be like well, I'm gonna do they're sending your various way of doing for zero. Definitely
so after all, just great were aware of what actually happened. There were like owed
This is a manufactured story that was then leaked the otter get more
press on and then pushed optical, particular
Let me give you an example, some stuff in that book they got up
coming out
They want to make its. They want pressed for the books, they put a billboards and vandalized the billboards themselves, so it gets reported that the billboards were vandalized right, click lake. That's a good move rapidly. I shuddered at work that suggest not checkers marketing. So those the kind of things that are an epoch was very, very
trusting so called pretty cold or talk to him, and here
of stuff is erupting on interest. Like I said it's it's pretty impressed.
That he went through that.
a period of being the kind of
it kid and
money and all the other stuff that was thrown into his face, and he was able to steer clear of that sort of.
On downfall spiral that people can get onto which a lot of people in europe to hollywood like allay with money and action and go,
get those advertisements, you can pull up, they have whole websites that are
dedicated to the the advertise
miss for american apparel. You can see it's a very
and, like I said, I didn't know about it at the time I was just so detached from like fashion, but when
look at it, you can see why why it went rector, and why was doing so? Well, it's cool, look and stuff.
no cool look in advertisements, but there
call conversation glad
motor. So thanks once again to arrive,
out what we got going. We talk alive by the way
so we we sought. Look we sold out in an arbour michigan we just got out, but done without and shy down. We are sold out. There
you're sure you were there, both show
what is your assessment powerful
I'll say that here they were there,
it was awesome, is awesome, be out there that we are going to be. We got two more shows.
we have one in boston, the
lawson when I looked at the charter's might be like
There's not many seats left in Boston. If any
I was having bought and sold out and philly fillies, so boss,
july, twenty first fillies July, twenty second, there still
he's left in failure to it, a bigger than you, but there's
a handful of seats in fairly so
you want to come in and listen it's I'm
you like. If you wanna, come and say hi, I will stay there until we shake hands
bring your books ring your books dammit. I should say that those of I sign a shit. I nevertheless I'll sign your books. It just because look
a mamma normal person. You know I'm not
green room, not hiding I've got freaking. Nine security guard stand in front of me too.
Get me whisk me out of that when it's over now, I'm like you're, my friend,
and your com hang out, come and get it
I'll be there will hang out
and are all definitely meet you shake hands. Do you want me to sign your book? Laguna yup, bring it. Let's do it so well
again. Next up is Boston July, twenty first Philly July. Twenty second come and get it,
Look foreseen you there and
I will be hyped up:
on little sancho, Jacques or fuel from their eyes. Weird, because I love I loved, go my own
energy drink right. I love it. I love the taste of below. I love the way that makes me feel, but I don't have to put a governor myself right
drink nine of those things in a day. I would but you can't write, but at that I'll drink
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companies are trying to do there. Thank you us the trying to push
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where their wild vitamin shop g and see the miller
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and by the we're, we're in little gems and little places also where we just went heavy and a tennis see we're all kinds of stores until if you're in tennessee go into like your local convenience store and see, what's up,
if you want to sell in europe
across writ Jim
if you are selling your just real email,
J f sales. At jocker fuelled our come, get get it in their state. Carry your people take carry your client.
get them in better shape. That's what we're doing
that's jocker fuel back home, we gotta go on also
we had origin. Usa. You heard it
Talking about yours,
but the apparel think you're talkin about other.
Companies making a t shirt for forty cents and who is getting exe
blinded. In order to do that, someone is getting exploited when that happens.
You can buy something when you can buy a teacher for seven dollars
the sun was getting exploited and is in its and its
national security is being exploited as well, and the environment is being exploited, is destructive.
Don't don't buy into go to origin, usa, dot com and get yourself something. That's maiden. America, that's what we're doing tee shirts boots genes.
give for the huge it'll baja rash guards. We
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look, we gotta go on and we're making all america we are taking care of our workers. We are taking care of national,
security, we're taking care of supply chain we're taking care of the farmers that grow the stuff.
and we're takin care uk's were making the best possible product origin. Usa, dot com go get it! That's what I'm saying!
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You can do your podcast discipline equal
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represent why you're on the path on the present, what was called at the lives of people were represented on the powered there was removed yet so that was also to see ever was shown up representing representing that short loggerhead assure locker gist.
It's just awesome. So, thanks for this, Sherlock has a subscription t shirt, make new t shirts all the time like new designs. Some are a little edgy little bit risky
little bit layers, there's layers on all who never that one of the questions at the jack alive was about a shirt locker sure the
only what everybody gets down here. Yet they asked about that
shirt, so there's layers their letters layers, always worthwhile doc. Lasorda com. Also, probably this pont gas. Also subscribe to giacomo underground office
scrapper the youtube jennifer for jocapa
ass, an origin, usa and jocker fuel. We got duty jails for all those check, those outside
I too am clicks.
scribe
smash. This lies. I didn't like dry bread,
if our canvas dakota myers, megan, awesome stuff to hang on your wall books, we
tunnel books, a friggin, ryan
ryan holiday right and books like a boss. Do just that
turning them out. So
check out all his books he's got these got. I think, he's at thirteen of I'm pretty ridiculous, but they're all
they're, all freakin good to go so check those out and then, of course, I've written a bunch books as well. I guess I need to get busy. If I want to go and free,
trump old, ryan holiday because
like getting because my egos and away- but
books, man reading as I as we were talking about,
readings how you learn you can learn.
Their people's experiences, you can refresh your memory. You can be detached, you can do assessments at all. These things are through reading, so get yourself some
books. We also echelon front our leadership consultancy. We saw brahms through leadership, grassland front dot, com for details. We have August eight through the tenth,
Think we got a couple spots open for the little bighorn battlefield.
Review coming checked out
we got it. We got it f. T X, like back to back after ex, has taken place
in texas, Wednesday september.
I think we got in october
is the next muster october. Eighteen through the twentieth, listen, we sell out of everything. So if you wanna come, please just
register. We also of the women's assembly that september fourteenth through sixteenth, Jamie cochrane. The
c, o o irrational front.
and an incredible leader in her own right. She
is running that event for women. So you can check
as well. We also have the extreme ownership academy where all these little lessons
that give you the skills to make
decisions to maneuver properly to build good relationships. All these.
that make up life itself.
relationships decision making these
things that make up life itself and if you're good,
damn, if you're good, at decision making, if you're good a bit building relationships, if you're good at discipline, if you're good,
These things, you
good at life, so
count: extreme ownership, cadres of extreme ownership, dot com- we got.
courses on that on their that you can take this listen
takes all those recourse if nothing else. If look, if you're broke right now and you
can afford to pay for
the courses. That's fine, go and take the free courses, the value and the free courses. You
benefit from immensely your benefit with your family, your benefit with your business, your benefit life so get in there
this free get in there get in there. It's it's! It's gold, we're giving away gold.
If I could have these lessons, when I
twenty three years old or twenty seven years old or thirty. Two years old,
My whole life would be better.
I had to learn the hard way
I want you to have an easy way: go to extremists,
dot com
You wanna help service members, active and retired. You want to help their families, gold, star families, check out, mark liese, MA molly, she's
charity organisation she held
so many veterans get into better.
Place in life through the therapy
is that she offers
it pays for so
Do america's mighty warriors dot org? If you want to help out marquess mom molly,
just an amazing woman and also don't forget it.
Mike think latest report is
he just fought off too
grizzly bears with
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he's your folks up in the field right now, he's take
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and horses dot. Org
connect with us on the into webs ryan holiday, dot, net
Also, facebook, twitter and graham at ryan holiday daily,
stoic dot com, facebook, twitter,
graham and you too, gentle at daily, stoic and, of course carry
is that carry help, carry on
score helm, guess what he missed the boat. He missed the boat
have you throw that underscore inner tuzla too slow to, though
nurse grab you try to get that. You try to get that, carry home yes or no. Nothing! Nothing! Does this! Didn't
response. Nothing, no respond! Zero movement
is carry Helen active
No, so just somebody just sit, not somebody parked, so we parted. I got some connects
so soon
let's go, let's go, and I am at jogger willing, of course. Of course please. Please please just watch your back, because the algorithm sneak up on you puts you in a chokehold you.
Wake up- and you wasted forty eight minutes of time. So just be careful. That's the algorithm and, of course, thanks to all our military folks on
watch around the globe right now, protecting us and our way of life. Thank you for what you do every
good day and of course, the same goes to our police law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, empties, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol secret service and all you first responders. You sacrificed
keep us safe here at home, and we thank you for that
and everyone else out there.
From a marcus, aurelius warrior emperor stoic, wish
discipline ourselves in small things and from these progress to things of greater value, as we say on the podcast here on me
gated daily discipline in all things, also for marcus, aurelius,
up allowing your mind to be a slave to be jerked about by selfish impulses. What does that mean? Do what you're supposed to do and finally from epictetus
freedom is secured by filling up on your hearts desire, but by removing your hearts desire or, as we like to say, discipline equals freedom and that's what we ve got until next time. This is carry an jacko out.
Transcript generated on 2023-08-07.