« Jocko Podcast

394: Lessons from the Stoics. Discipline, Leadership, Life. With Ryan Holiday.

2023-07-12 | 🔗


Ryan Holiday is the bestselling author of Trust Me, I’m Lying; The Obstacle Is the Way; Ego Is the Enemy; Conspiracy and other books about marketing, culture, and the human condition. His work has been translated into over 30 languages and has appeared everywhere from the New York Times to Fast Company. His company, Brass Check, has advised companies such as Google, TASER, and Complex, as well as multiplatinum musicians and some of the biggest authors in the world.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is jocko podcast customer three? Ninety four with carry Helen and me jocker willing good evening carry good evening. Self discipline The virtue of temperance is the ability to keep your ass in line the ability to work hard to say no to practise good, habits and set boundaries to train and to prepare to nor temptations and provocations to keep your emotions in check to endure painful difficulties. Self discipline is giving you everything you have and knowing what to hold back, Is there some contradiction in this? No only balance Some things we resist some things we pursue in all things we proceed with moderation intentionally reasonably without being consumed,
or carried away. Temperance is not. Deprivation, command of oneself physically mentally, spiritually, demanding the best. For one self and of oneself, even when no one is looking, even when allowed less. It takes courage to live this way, not just because it hard, but because it sets you apart. Discipline then, is both per day dave and deterministic it makes it more. We will be successful and ensures success or failure that whatever since you are great. The converse is also true. A lack of discipline. Put you in danger.
It also colors who and what you are and that right there is a little excerpt from a book called discipline. Is destiny, I feel like I have to say that way. The power of self control written by a gentleman by the name of ryan holiday rhine holiday is prolific author. I don't use that term lightly. He's upon Yes or blogger, a marketer, a book store order, an entrepreneur and a modern day follower of stoicism, and it's a pleasure to have ryan here with us tonight to share his experiences, and lessons learned along the way right thanks for journalists, yet it's been an inch think right for you, yeah as I kind of pulled the thread on your life and what you ve done its. It is interesting ride, to say the least.
actually advice someone gave me am I wanted to be a writer and they said: okay, writers live interest in lives, though the point being You train you gotta. I was writer's workshop, get really good at putting the words in the right order or you go, do stuff in red about stuff and experience and then you know right about that and you don't have to be as good yeah. No, I would definitely say I guess, I'm a living proof of just go out and do some cool stuff and then write about it. You're you'd probably do okay I would definitely recommend that course of action. Rather than going to a long schooling look and I went to school, I wasn't english major. Did I learned of a yes, I absolutely did, but I would much more recommend going out and getting after it go out and have adventures get into trouble, cause issues cause. May him let
We may have in the world around you and he'll some exciting stuff. The right about here. yeah, see people fuck up fog of yourself. You just just learn something about the human experience the commission like color the work they are doing there, because if you don't yet you have to be way better. It's like it's like with music, like you can be the most technically brilliant person, you can have some sort of should all experience that you are communicating and- and I think all the best music is that yeah for, that's a whole thing for me. You know I was given for that you can go to guitar centre anywhere. Country, and put up a sign that says hey, I'm looking for a guitarist that can play all of led zeppelin, black sabbath and rush, which is The most complex music there is rush and and you'll get when he applicants that can legitimately do it and they all
jobs as waiters and construction workers, and then there's one kid. That is this a streak of chaos in his brain and what he's been through his life and he's got some emotional connection with the world or disconnection with the world that it comes out and there you go you're like oh jack. Why are you doing? I mean envy mounts brilliant qatar player Well, I don't know any the songs. I mean I've seen him why those pretty cool, but again I don't know any of the science and theirs it there's a balance right there, spectrum and you could see, can be technically brilliant. You can just have a lot to say. Ideally, you want temper at the funny thing is temperance. The stoic virtue is. also rendered a sort of moderation or balance if you want both rate in the middle, that you need a combination of the two I'm going to try not to do this all day, but I also wrote a book called the dichotomy of leadership and it's all about the balances of everything that you do in life. If your hate egos bad
No you go then you're just sitting around you know watching netflix and doing nothing. and if you let your ego get our control august. We know it's prompter, so yeah, the the give bounce how two percent, and that does include being a rock n roll guitarist over you could take the sex pistols and you probably say they were as bout as raw. I mean the vicious on base. He basically learn how to play the base. You know three shows before whatever and got up there and just hammered out that thing so they brought Yeah yeah in an and just like, there's brilliant technical matters to read it so, but I think the best it's the cup you know that You know the golden mean Aristotle's golden mean no to Aristotle, golden mean is basically this argument, right, he's saying that: ok, here's this courage so that the four virtues, courage, discipline, justice, wisdom is saying that courage actually illustrates the virtual
supply, because courage is not on one end of the spectrum currencies in the middle of the spectrum, there's recklessness and then cowardice on the ends of the spectrum and the virtue you want to be is actually in the middle and pretty much recent in life is like that. It's in its in the that cause there's always in extreme version. That's too much the most people don't have the too much problem. They're, not we're good at their thing. Most people are not good enough at their thing or don't have enough of the thing, but actually want that middle ground. So even two thousand years it got there late morning. They're, ok, look it's about about for sure. Right? So, let's go let's go through where how you ended up here today have how'd you get here today. Where were you born sacrament of california sack dough has sack town. Yet, What did your parents to my dad was a police detective and then he worked your dna and then my mom, a school principle, advice principle. So very
sort of blue collar, regular people, jobs as pretty much everyone in Sacramento is I've, been people think a foreign is all this is its much more sacra it's much more sacramento than the other place sacramento are sorry. California is first of all small bunch of agriculture. massive. I called you drive outside of the big cities and you're just gonna run into fields and so yeah. It's you. Blue collar state and there's just a few cities that not very blue colored off yes, not of what they are, so your grown up years was your dad in the police forces whole his greer, thousands and your mom same thing. Teacher or life, and I became a principle some point and what were what were they like growin, up dimly, regular people. You know just regularly Did you did you?
eight here mom or dad from a perspective of like hey my dad's, a cop I may be a cop or my mom's, a teacher vince print principle homage to go that direction. Now I would I would say we were not on the same vibe like I've. An I got this. that they were like sort of where this can come from. Sir. I have had the same sense with my per year might have in the exact opposite yeah, I would have loved in english teacher in order like that, that's? Who I was like? I was into that stuff. also, I think I think I have said this before, but it was hold on. You say you were into so my mom we're talkin before hit record that my mom was an english. Due to my dad was a history teacher It's a huge treat. You just said: can parents get well it's weird, because people are like? Oh that's weird, you! That's all that's where you are the way you are and blah blah blah, but I was my Well, look at me like: where did this child come from get? Why is the act like this? Where where workers this genetic of
It fell apart. Some at some point in our lives but you, you just said you're into it. So you're talking you're in high school, and you are into literature, yes, books, ideas like I wanted. I was like so excited to go to college because I was like that's going to be it and then you get to college and it's like here's a group project. It's not what you think it is, but what kind of music are you into heavy metal, so they also they will accrue. Mrs kid what's come on wisest spend so much time is a computer in his room. on his hair. How did you get into heavy metal? ah was your gateway band. So I got an iron me now I was trying to illegally download a metallica album and I doubt loaded, and I made about what is at issue. This is like I love metallic maiden is like a different level, and I think for maybe my history person you're, like we d songs,
bout known him he'll like like, and then go look up with those things worthiness. I just fell totally down this rabbit. Hove of heavy metal that's right, ed, so you're in a heavy metal you're reading books do you're, you're freaking we're at this Wait. Yes, you're author anything, but I was weird worker yet friends, we did you have friends your hanging out with you around Also my parents like having a data cap, so you gotta play sports and I remember I went to we moved when I was in high school, and so I started this new high school and it's like. I want you to play football, and so I you know you go everyone's in this theater, Of course, all these kids are put football, their whole lives. I've have not, and then the culture starts at school, everyone was like? This is not me, and this is not what I want, and so I ran cross country interact with, sounds like a running, a runner us very skinny runner kid who is always getting into trouble. You gonna get us pretty
but I was I was, I was afraid of actually try. I realise in retrospect legumes pretty good, and I will do what I could do. on my natural talent, but the idea of I'm trying. Clearly there is some part of me that was reluctant to do that, because the same reason why a lot of people on try is that if you fail, then it's on you. So I was I I just master at like in retrospect cross frontier was insane. I don't know how it is any more but they'd be like you don't get to cross country practice, and then they will tell bunch of Fourteen year old boys to go on a fifty minute run and come back, you know, and so we would hence our and video games or food stuff and then throw off bridges in a we just. Do we just do what We want it, you know so I was I was that comic, yeah there's a whole business
culture, I guess I'm just doing stuff and thrown off of bridges for fourteen year old boys, I mean that's the best. You know if you well computer, monitor abridged implodes. You know, just like you just find stuff, that's you know those little scooters schoolers in a bunch, well, an order was colonel. You haven't you in texas, radio, do they have not yes, unfortunately, when they originally brought him here to san diego just every time they would put em out people just destroyed beverages, throw them off a bridges, throw them off the cliffs just destroy him, and I remember reading some article about it and- and I guess the for one of the first places they did. It was in holland or something- and I said man that of the dutch people seem super nice and chill and they were like, oh great elector,
cars. Scooters that we can ride around and americans are like cool shit. We can break the fourteen year olds in america. We're like no we're not having this. So that's what happened. I I definitely get the impulse to not just say that I like throwing stuff off bridges but like in Austin there's this trail around town, like you know, really cool trail, which is ass at sight. one of the best running chosen, the country and people they're not allowed on this trail, but not only will be take them on the japanese, just pork them in the middle of the trail. So every time I see them, I want to throw them off something I've I've conquered that impulse butter We all see one in the water and get you give a nod, it has a job, the fourteen urals out there. We salute yes exactly so you get good grades. I was ok, again, I think, they're right. When I look at my high school experience, I see it defined you know like seventy percent of potential, like when I hear kids ones like harvard
the naval academy, I'm always blown away because, like they got serious and good like way before Hi was, I cared their unanimous or their parents, got serious with short sharp with some short like if you yeah, and then they programme and correctly or theirs, into it, which is also true, yes, definitely, but, but that just like to be in way close to like a high level of performance at sixteen yorkists is is incomprehensible to you. You were not there now It was not there. I was well. First of all, I just knew I was going to the military, so everything else just seemed like a big joke to me, because I'm an idiot. Why would I have to do schoolwork doesn't make any sense, but on the matter, So did you have some kind of a plan, some kind of a vision of what you're going to do? I knew I wanted to sack sacramento. I don't think I met a single person who did not have a job
and I knew I wanted to be a person that did not have a job like I like that. I don't want to work, but I didn't want to lake. I didn't want to have I want to be a person who did like the stuff that they wanted to do, and so there Had this vague sense that southern California was a place where stuff like that happened, I know what you mean like movies or music or writing or whatever so so job to you meant, like nine to five job you're working for the man. Yes, you have a you, have a salary. You are not in control of your life and you didn't like that idea. I didn't like that idea. know exactly what I wanted to, and I wasn't. I wasn't even sure and wasn't until I went to college I went to riverside and, like you meet college professors and they ve written book. Some papers and their works, but you like of this is like people do like. I remember We have this seminar my before
I started my freshman year of as like a summer thing that I did, and there was a novelist. Her name is Susan straight I've gotten to know since, but she like, we all had to read this professor's novel that had one like some. price and it was like all. This is just like a regular lady that road, an answer. That was the first thing for me. Where I met. someone who did a thing and unsafe up my people do this. You know my regular people do stuff like that. You don't have to This is in no way just made. It suddenly became much more accessible. I had a similar thing where I was a little kid running around the woods using sticks as machine guns and then at some point I realized you can actually have. That is a job
I said to myself. I'm set good do this for a living, and then I met or autumn a guy who is a marine, cordial instructor who is like the older brother of a friend of mine, and it was the same thing like up cackle. This is a real thing. Yet, where do I sign up for this gig go make this happen. We know this, you know what a neko baby is not and never baby is like an actor whose kid becomes an actor all like it. You're talking about how many people that are famous you realize actually had like famous or of the apparent and so is kind of in this backlash against deputies, but I dont think like stuff. Curry is not great cause. His I was in the nba an achievement their advantage. I think it was partly genetics, partly access to the best teachers and teams whenever, but also he sighs dad go to work had a basketball arena and that. is any sought at an early age. So she had a head start
in believing that stuff was possible, that's utterly in impossible to regular People do not mean later you realize just just like. I probably more likely to have been a police officer or scorpion cause. I saw my parents, do it, it's not that they they would have opened where's that would made this thing easier. It's just like that I would have seen that as though you know like the family that's what we're doing yes, a sort of like the path of reform, but the hollywood thing is different, though right, I'm pretty sure, because they're getting gigs when their their parents are, you know talker, the rector being like yo get my in there. That's gotta be happen, I'm sure that's part of it, but if you can't deliver it you're not getting more of them right. I think that's true. I think yeah, sure Tom hanks. Kid is in band of brothers, shrieked colin hankses in band of, but you can also footing act, and so, but I think it's
you see someone being in a profession. You see someone being a professional at a thing that, as a fan, you don't understand as being a craft muted. like when you're watching the movie you're seeing the theme you get lost in the world? You don't see that, as you don't see the process that goes into it, but when you do see the process, I think it'd be it's diminish, defied in a way that gives you an advantage and occasionally you see someone, that's not a good actor and they look bad go. That's only time you realize maybe it's a little harder than it looks good watch is not to be. The brok got their dude out. What's up right, do you? Do you not think that You watch a movie. Will maybe you understand the craft a little bit more people. They just look at that. Like oh I'll, go up there and give me the words to say I'll, say and will be good. Let's go give me my money where maybe you also see people who are bad? Who are successful, and you know I'm better than that person. I can do that.
Yeah? You don't think you meet someone who's. That's the other thing like if you're a kid you never met someone that graduated from harvard. You think it's like this I called words or something many really dumb person whose graduated from harvard and you're like up this is is only later in life. You go. Oh, it's not like unattainable, it could have happened deserve these are still regular. There's a priest. as you figure it out so you're in high school. Your vision is, I'm going to not have a job, I'm going to do something cool on my own boss, type thing, but you're not even sure what it is when you apply to riverside, u c riverside yeah, I wanted to go to santa Barbara, but then my high school girlfriend went to riverside, so I made a brilliant choice now I think about it. all this, I met my wife, it riverside. So it's it's it's all right. I have no regrets, but I think in again Your high school and I don't want to get a tunnel in the inland empire of an island. Mr andor, did you visit, in a barber several times
as I places who raise its unrest, beats absolutely insane at unreal these have all the best land and california, but then you just went to riverside like yeah. That's exactly see go up there? Would you gonna study what he started up? One of the sides. because that was the first ballot. I rarely, but I wouldn't politics I like. I think I wanted to be like a political right, her something like that. But here you don't know. It's crazy to that. You can join the military at eighteen, they're, so fucking, dumb yeah, your brain, I mean what your brain doesn't develop to your twenty five. Yet so, when you're, seventeen and you're signing the paper you're just like yo, let's go yeah So then what happened to you may go there for like a year. Right is a right for two years to you yet and that's when I met
I became a research assistant for this guy robber, green, whose like one of the greatest authors of all time, and then how did you hook up with him? I was right. This other other, and he ran roberts website, and I was the super it like this Blogging is just coming out what years us this is of six five or six. So I was, was? I was very into this I'd this world suddenly, because of the internet in this sort of new york. Kick keeping media lives like a few made cool stuff. People could find it. Thou hast thou has just happened in that. I think you tube sold and talents. Six or seven, so this is like when they serve internet quarter is just half an hour, Can, through your blogs, your first bloggers, two thousand seven, that's right! That's power, I think I may have had another one. And another one, then I started right after I graduated high school, which is too oh five, so I've been Looking around for half a year, something like that ok
so used are workin for Robert green yeah. This is you don't college. This is, while I'm still in college. Where does he If you live in l, a or something he lives in l a he lives here's to remote work before remote work was a thing I was transcribe well so so, basically he will. He needed a research assistant and then I'd spent that some of the summer after my sophomore year I was I was this system. The talent agency were aimed at this movie producer and us was go back and he was like em like what, if you just didn't, go back and roused that this way this is that the at the talent agency I hear he was, I would have you he's like I need a new assistant. Would you like to be my assistant. and thou against. The felt the hollywood system is is deranged. You start by answering people's phones, and running their calendar and that's how you supposedly learn how to be like a producer or talent manager, but says word for this person
and so I was on he was. I am happy to tell a manager, shrimps, interesting cool, and then has wherever robert and robert was just in this book and he needed like a research assistant like that he would pay, and so For me, it was like I'm going to go back to school to hopefully grand wait. I think that was going to graduate in three years, but I was I was like. Am I going to spend another year or a year and a half in school to hope like I was, leaving if I grant, if I graduated, and these with it New job offers that I have, I would have liked college was a huge success. And so for me, it was like I'm going to go back and just read about this stuff happening, or am I going to do it and I did it and so you became a full time. Research assistant for rob
the green, and what was he working on forty eight laws of power now the forty dollars a pair came out in like ninety eight. I think this was. He was doing a book called the fiftieth fly with fifty cent, and I had to trim. My first thing was I to transcribe, like thirty hours of interviews between robert green and fifty cent, which was a surreal like super cool. It was, you know it was a super cool, haven't. in the other direction. I heard that and I was like gosh that's terrible you're, like super cool. I was like this is well for me. It was like this is hell until it happens, yeah How you do the thing this is the craft of its like, I was seeing it start with the raw materials, and then I've watched, like my favorite author, make a book from start to finish, and so that was I mean you couldn't you can pay. class like you and it's. We I'm sitting here thinking about that, so our books too, and the books are in my head.
don't mean which is which is kind of, I guess different in away. Then like a robber, green book, where he's working with fifty cent and doing thirty hours worth of interviews and extracting the information from that. That's like a different process. It's almost like I'm cooking steak and rob green is cooking of seven course meal and there's a lot more. That goes into it. I think, I mean your books. Are you? What are you thinking and then his books and like mine are researched So it's what you know. What is what is the scope of history? Say it's a I You to tell a story from my life to illustrate this point and the word. it is not only my first book does the word. I really ever appear so I'm I'm I'm the I'm painting a picture in so I have to go find and this. What I learned from Robert is how you can find the stuff,
Yeah, because if someone watched me write a book, they would get nothing out of it. They to sit over my shoulder and watch me type. You know what I mean like that, wouldn't be they wouldn't get it but process that you're talking about is actually a process that you could take. If you're gonna write that type a book, yeah, like I learned his his research system. I learned I mean they would still learn a lot watch em you you work just like that. When of doing it, and then all the the editing, the cross all the decisions that you make along the way. I learned a lot there too, but it was really like. First up, it was just it was like it was I going to college because he was like. I had to read all the books if he didn't Read more, I read that he be like, I think, there's something in this person's life story, and so I have to go. Read ten books about Joe louis they like that, and then I'd have to present to him what I thought he We needed to know about that person to use for the story that he wanted to tell you tat.
it's very cool and he really must have seen something in you, because I, when I read a book like, for instance, I I cover a lot of books on the podcast. I I've tried to like c o someone give me an assessment of this book and I and I can't get him. I can barely get anything out of it, so he must have had a huge amount of trust in you to be giving you that much weight of hey, look at this and tell me why? it's cool about it. Basically, I think so I mean he's smart about it. So it's like he's doing ninety five percent of it, the right and so I'm. in pursuing the things that he's pretty sure are going to be a dead end. So it's like if I find something it's extra or if I don't find something it at least he he could at least trust me enough. To eliminate something: hey there's, not story about andrew carnegie that work for this book or whatever.
It started. I mean I, it started just transcribing interviews, which was in a now. You can have a I do that for you, but it took a long time, when you read in those books for him, are you just gone the high lighter and pulling out a set of notes and given the high points and whenever you thought was, interesting yeah. So, like I would read the book, I would fold and mark everything that was interesting and then I would give the book. I would write up a report about it and the give him the book. The copy that I read and then he would see she would serve spot check it and then, if something if you found something interesting when he would go, do more research, it was. It was more just like a partly in the way that you would have some give you an intelligence report later here, the thing Can you should now and then that that's lighting up your sort of intuition for what'll what to write off or look more into order ask for follow ups and if it is really just do it was
an apprenticeship in how to do the thing that I knew that I ultimately wanted to do So you knew that you want to be an offer at something import it's under a figure it out. I want to be an offer. Yeah yeah right, but I want to write books like his books. ok, so come on. You do in this job, for the nice thing about doing this, I could do it on the site, but I mean probably six seven years. My six or seven years, you were doing stuff doing it even through my first books coming out, at some point he he like he was like you have to stop like that. I don't want to me. It was like I remember, we go? I robert we go summary. You need to send me. Your ours. Have your gay assured. no. You need to send me your at like to me, the idea that I was also getting paid for it was so like beside the point to me, it was like I could call robert and asking questions rather like how does how does this happen like whom it
this. I remember once how has the index work like? What is that Do you have to do that? You know I was just so. The whole process is even when you said when you soldier first, but it's not like that. told you how it works. They were just like here's, some money, please come back with me. You ve, never done before that almost no one knows how to do and by what you don't get. the rest of the money. Unless must we accept it? So it's is italy when I sat down to write my first book at a huge advantage, because I was like I was it. I wasn't like groping around in there I didn't know if I could, if I had an idea or the talent pull it but I knew I could I knew I could at the end of the process. I didn't know if it would sell, but I knew I could they had no doubt in my mind. I can do it because I had seen it happen. so then, as you're doing this, when did you kind of branch off and start sort of the marketing thing? so there is a right. Am I making the right statement? There is at some point you. You started a marketing
when he he have some kind of satellite. So I was, I was working with his talent agency and it was cool. I was working all these different artists, A man when sideways there and how long if you can't dislike, come on the podcast. If just say a big chunk of your life with sideways nyc area was a surreal experience. So I was just his talent agency. Is a talented, went sideways yeah the the talent agency I my position. Airlines are so too so two things happens to first up, I drop out of college to to work for this guy, like the thing well, the with Robert was not like the thing you drop out of college It was this discharge hostile to your parents. I dropped out of college they disowned- is terrible right there. Let's there really. What are you Are you in the same yeah and even though like when I went the funny thing is, I was just actually back there and cause I was. I spoke it to the seventh regiment in twenty nine palms. So I fluid alex and I drove through
and I started riverside and I went for a run and I ran violet the building when I dropped out of, and I remember- and I think it is worth pointing out people who, because before make a life changing decision. You think you were literally holding your life in your hands. For that right, it's never as scary as you think it is going to be remember. I walked in it's. I think it's called hinder hecker hall and I was like you know, I'm sure- to drop out college like I'd. Only to my parents did, they were like you know. Come me off had already too. Girlfriends pact, like it, was this this terrible I was so scared, and I go, and I might come here, you drop out of college and they go Y know don't like that. There's no like not a thing? What do you entirely fill this form? You pay forty dollars and you just put you're like your. Economic status on hold you take a semester off and then there
If you want to come back at the end of this message is thought this form and if you don't it just tolls for ten years like I spent all these nights. Thinking like I was like literally jumping off of a cliff and like it was literally Forty dollar form that I undue at any minute and did so scary, but you don't know until you do and by the way most of life decisions are like that, yet there's a very few decisions in life that are acts even if you're, a big ones, house Even if you buy a house even when you do like worst case scenario. Gosh we didn't sell the house. Yes and you look, you look. You lost some money and it's going to take all the money you're going to lose Suddenly you don't mean, like you're, like I spent three hundred dollars doubt. Is that all the money you haven't the world it doesnt become worse, That is a mistake. You sell the house you for ten percent. Less. You sell your agent gets the three percent other, just three percent going to go. You can carry on yes, there's very few decisions that are that that debt are per very few guess so
This is a great example of one you're. Like a drop. Because I call fathers formed capacity and in a semester to they. You know whenever somebody does decide to drop out of college. There is going on this form and was the eunuch semester no big deal, you can't go to up or whatever it is. You gonna do with your whatever. And I remember I told the boss that I was dropping out to work for I was like you know. I don't know if I will find one. Bet with my wife on this and he just when I was in college. I got motto or some such use. I Spent a year in the hospital is acting we times. This is come up in my life since this euro zero times I spent it took five years instead of for its he's, a give, it does work out, it won't work out, but so I drive back to riverside. I do all the stuff he gives me a week to, like you know, get out of my apartment package, find a new apartment and do all this stuff and then I show up at the talent agency and he's not there and his old assistant is still there like the person she whispered let go is still there. She is
no idea why I'm there and none of his none of his is partners. The business know ways there there like to sit here and they serve call me in hand they're like so aaron's in rehab. and each he checked into rehab be unavailable for the next forty five days and the salary that we negotiated was they were not an agreement. So so, basically I thought so relief of like our not belong up my life and then I got there and I was like I did in my life- and this is a terrible mistake, so that doubt that was one and then what happened was. I was working for robert, so I always had the forty eight laws of power on my desk and I would read it cause. I was researching fine and one of the other partners became, convinced that I was like plodding or that I was untrustworthy because I was
protegee of robert green, and so we we invited heads in there is. There is a big mr spectacular, but up where I was, I was ass ice torn down. slash, was asked to leave, and then I was I was you don't seem like a storm out asked to leave type a person. I I thought this was a weird. This is a weird thing. He he comes in he's sort of like an ari gold type. You from entourage like that flashy and that the my and asked me to listen it. He was like listen into this phone call and it was like. I want you to message me like information that I need to use. That's what I was doing, but you know, like the conference call say, like five people listening or whatever there We finally want to cover their six, I'm listening and the boss goes like who's there in others. There, like mighty inside, didn't, say anything I was like. I refer fact himself. There's pretend that I wasn't. call it makes you feel like finds out, I'm I'm on the core issues. Storms and unlike sitting like storms in and eyes,
fuckin knew it was you in he said: you've fuck fucking have all these suspicions that he had about it. Now. If I wanted to be honest, dumb call and out he start slamming the door. Just like old, like you, during slams. It opens its like you just like trying to like physically intimidate like this kid, so I just got up and left, and that was it How was it knows it for the town, a challenge that was that was the end of my career as a as a future talent agent. and so now, you're, just with Robert green well a ride around that time, robbers and the board of directors of american peril of fascism, and he had he was his search, strategic advisor to the ceo, and so I met dove then and dove had been asking me to come work for him as like sort of an advisor person and so What's he doing ask a nineteen year old, friggin college drop out there just got fired none of it cannot have indeed already had made, but always do, and where would what? What? What sort of
were you given off that you were given this site title offer? I don't know. I think I think this is you know you know if any on person, my people think they know how computers work, and so I think he he thought that I understood says something about the internet and online, what you're all this stuff. That was a big deal with which I make sense them, and so I like it, I didn't even have like a title or a badge. I was just like. I reported only to this person and that's a star What year was that of? Seven ok seventeen o seven away, so you had already had like a blog. You had already in here able to like look dad and Jim in this is when blogger, that that was just like you, european, a yes, and that was enough to have him say all right. You come and work in a mixed when I was in two thousand and seven he had just gone public. It was like the hottest fashion coming the world and
but it was also a mess because he hired in a random, you're onto the streets like like a chaotic places are good, is if you they're good, but then there also only there also bad or you wouldn't. You have an opera they're burning and burn out given to explode there, all tile burger you're, making a lot of heat, but they're gonna turn explode yet and so very soon after, like you know, he was like hey, take care of this like this project and then take care of this project this project, and then you mean example of like where you're taking care of, I think we're spending too much money on online advertising. To tell me if that's true or not riot- or I white people people. I know about this that we're doing find someone online to write about that. So dealing these little things. and then I ended up sorted, doing kind of an overhaul of it's me can stuff. And then he ended up. It was like I did what you said. You know who do you want to run it, and then he was a view and so ended up running
marketing as busily marketing in america fell like twenty one, twenty two and what you so now its two thousand and nine the sunlight that dude I miss so I was in the motor him institutionalized human that's just been, and very large since my life, I've no dear what was happening in the normal world and I completely mistress all american apparel thing and dimension, my fashion, my connection to the fashion and even have called the company right now. My connection, the fashion industry, is next to nothing. So I missed this whole american apparel thing. I don't know anything about it, and I started looking at it and it's kind of I'll do it was wild? I went and looked at all the ads. Are these controvert there there their amazing adds they're they're, making ads and totally controversial borderline border, an extremely controversial, it's so that was you run nada? I mean dove of his genius and all
was him and he iq. He did everything right. So we have this idea that the leader should do everything and he did do everything. There's a sort of singular genius like he was the fit model. He was the designer. He was the photographer he was the ceo he he could. So. You could do everything, but as the company that big bigger, he lacked the ability out to delegate mere genius, can only get you so far, but was I mean it's totally insane idea that he threw sheer brilliance managed to pull off him in at one point, had tuner fifty or sixty stores and twenty countries, revenues almost a billion dollars was the largest garment mania. from the united states, when, especially, then the idea that you could still closing the united states was as close to blasphemy. because you could possibly get it and, like I remember the reason I work their item,
the shit about fashion. I was like a kid like books, you he was like come meet me at the factory and so go to the factory and he's like follow me. I want to show you something, and so I'm fallen through a factory like on the fourth floor. It it it. It was it's right in alameda and the ten therein downtown I miss old hundred, plus euro building and so walking the floor and as he's walking the floor, these sewing teams which were like korean and mexican and all every race to possibly imagine but garment workers who are making fifteen twenty bucks, an hour which is less say there, that they are highly skilled there, the best in the world at what they do, they're getting up in their cheer they're, giving him with a standing ovation as he walks the floors factory, and it's not like a cult of personality thing. It's
when we were working in sweat shops. The alternative was literal sweatshops, and here they have health pike. He built all that from the ground up when it was not so it'll be possible and I'm sure you figured it out with apparel to like what what he figured out. That is so interesting and I'm fascinated by it still is like so gap makes a t shirt for forty cents, and then they saw myself for forty dollars or whatever right. She was. Where is the money go? You don't mean like, like you could. If you, the workers set of forty in an hour you're paying them for it knowledge in our that's, only in the cost of making the garment by like a dollar or to either way the problem? Is that the most fashion? These are a race to the bottom as far as price goes but if you make some cool the people want. Were there not price conscious? Suddenly all the ethical compromises I remember he said what is out of your mind: swimsuit for eight dollars, his ex somebody got fuck
write his point was like who, who are you exploiting to get this thing at the price? consumers are well, so he you know, interpro procedure was twenty two bucks in two thousand seven, which seem like a lot of money. It also allowed the company to do cool shit, and so I was really fascinated by that. if the whole story is also a kind of a breaking bad arc where this guy, who had this moral purpose and genius all ends up imploding? That's what my my book on ego is sort of inform. My Also, I watched the rise and fall of that company, but it was just had never seen anything. Yeah. I know it's been awesome. You know we have five four hundred and fifty right now people sewing and in again I just had a conversation with some are about to see the day by day Your of automation, you can't automate sewing white cloth, is to particular
two unique every little piece of cloth, a little different differently or human has to do it. They're not going have a robot that can so for a long long long time, even with all the advances that are making right now. So it's got humans, gotta be people may not have skill may get in there and they. This is, I we really demonized factory work in america and when the reality as winners, people that enjoy working with their hands. They like it and stuff down they like to see what they have produced at the end of the day it very rewarding, and it's a good job and it's a career job, so it an awesome. Two parties the paid in that in and growth was companies and be able Do what you're talking about and pay people what they should be paid and then, on top of all that the The environmental stuff like I see a lot of companies that are out there that I believe there's a term for green washing of you have this month yet where they say, oh well, we give this much money to the environment, but they still make
close in a country which is basically any country but America, where we can dump all of the left over chemicals right into the ocean. They go out the smokestack in it just totally destroyed the environment. So it's it's abuse for the workers. It's too, both for the environment and yet we going to get a little money to the to the environmental causes Georgiana caught in the act and its total bullshit. So we are fighting against that and that's why I really when I, when I was reading about american apparel and what it did. It was very interesting for me to read in india, certainly for for him to be able to pull that off. It's been for us to pull it off and we ve done it. Yet we ve been able to pull it off where it continues to grow and get bigger and better, but up it's a very fascinating story and definitely parallels a lot of what we're doing without the We just have a little bit of a disc a little bit more of a disconnection from, I would say, like the high fashion type thing, We are more made
stream normal human clothing, but as that, that's a couple things. He figured out. I'm too first up his vertically integrate so like the he needed their own. He needed the fabric cut, it died it so do we and then ran his own stores so he realized that where we is the money going if it's so cheap to make it's all. The middle men are cut, cut, cut, which I, which I thought was really interesting, and then his other thing was ok bike. Do you remember a couple of years ago there's a controversy where, like the ceo of abercrombie and fitch, the abercrombie and fitch stores, when they would wouldn't sell. They would kite it up and throw it in the garbage closer and knowing. Why could you do that, while it's because the stuff is actually worthless right if it doesnt cell in the sale cycle its worthless and it actually cost more to ship back to some warehouse and store it whereby the way becomes less valuable every day because it's not like, In unless they hold over thirty years and fashioned never coming back and you're paying distort yes storage, which may not seem like a big deal, but it's a big deal yet
specially for doing millions of peace. It's right. So what does figured out was hey if you make stuff doesn't go out of stock, classics or basics, and you dont venture, into shit. That is trendy you bypass. All of that. So you know. If you don't sell this blue teacher in march, you're all sell it in April or may and and so he key on for the first sound like eight of the company. Why it was so huge is that he sold not just the stuff that that people always wanted but stuff that evergreen evergreen and if you go. Oh, I wore out this teacher. I'm gonna go get another one, not and you knew they had the stuff you want. So when you make sure that its perennial than timeless you who are not in this cycle of of serve plan the lessons which is, which is not only exploitative too customer. It's also really hard because you have to be so right right, I can't give you resemble for for daily stoic, like
a calendar, vert like a page a day calendar, and so when I first did it, it was, you know, january for Monday january, first rate and then thinking about something, I learned from dove, which it, if I just don't put the day, on the count. If I just make it a january first calendar, I dont have to guess, many to make each year and I can make it better and cheaper and in a less exploitative way, cause it's perennial right, and so, if you think of, if, if, if you just take You start from not wanting to fuck people over and not see yourself as a predictor of the future. You have such a wider target need to make better decisions like people. we are going to want this. They always won t shirts and so an underwear and whatever, and then it was even though like. If you made a weird, you made a pink teacher people than like it, because he and his own dived, he could send the teacher back and diet different color, so
It was a brilliant fan that could today a shoe lee valuable company but in canada, destroying had no. What was that instruction how the destruction to play a huge me to part of it, which is just a collapse of ethics in and discipline. You know you could have relationships with ploys, even though over and over and over again gives this Not only is it not? Okay like it's, exposes the company to all sorts of legal liability and lawsuits and ultimately, but but the big thing was, I see this all the time in life, so american barrels is hot, huge company, but at urban outfitters forever, twenty one. There were these other fast fashion, companies that were growing faster, that were getting more media attention and he started trying to copy them. So, like american apparel had twenty five stores in new york city cause, there were basics,
each of has to end their big flagship store, so therein totally different business models, but what people do as they try to have your model and do it. Somebody else is doing, and so he started trying to compete. with people who were running totally different races and and in the idea of only selling classic stuff. So he would try to ride waves of trends, so she would make something and then it wouldn't cell, then he started choke. Slowly on the inventory. But the big mistake was making a teacher choirs eight sellers, making a button up this forty sellers, and so not only was he switching towards pieces. Thou were less profitable and less perennial, but they would take the team
off the core efficiency. So it's I mean it's a really timeless business stories like you, you drift out of your lane and then new crash, and then that What it was I was down. There was a huge part of it and then it was lawsuit after lasted until the banks would lend on it and then just spiraled into I've robots and when my books, but he was also like no discipline- is personal life, so I never slept. He would call me at three in the morning just to talk about stuff it'd be like three at three in the morning. His time like he would just call he was. He was a work, a holiday, no boundaries, and I think he kind of worked himself almost into like a psychosis lake just like a like a howard, hughes, kind of state where you're not on this planet anymore? woodwind when you would meet with him the needless another people will you
You take your ideas, we say: oh yeah, that's a good idea, which would someone pushed back on and off or was the type of person I've known people like this that are so convincing and so persuasive that even when they're wrong, they went every argument. It was exactly. I remember one time he called a bunch of likely executives into the office and it was like a three hour meeting like we are meeting where he talked the whole time. I remember I was leaving and and one of the creative directors who is brilliant and she'd, been there like from the beginning. What was that? you know cause I'm like twenty. I haven't seen him and she does. The cinema dove is it dove wants to be heard, a little bit more than he wants to be successful, and it was like, oh he. He he's a performer at the end, like he's at the end of the day he wants to vent and be listened to and goes through the new note. He keep was like in this sort of manic rats. Basically an and you sit like there's lots of bridges that a president do liked to do that ray.
Like a nice here to learn what I need to learn complex. What I need accomplish delegate what needs to be delegated its. I need air. My personal grievances. My theories about the universe in its it. It is a very it's. It's both toxic leadership, trade, but also in intoxicating, should create, and what you what I saw happen, clear to me in retrospect, as they would like. The investors Robert was on the board, what to be like we're bringing in this new person this, like this persons from apple this person from this company, and they would make it like three months and then leave and then, when I realized was happening again to me. This is like how business worked my guide on learn so many habits. This is normal. It's like if your parents scream each other all the time. You're like isn't this? What everyone pits parents you, but I realized they would show up and go up way. This is gonna six. They knew that this was not how it was done, and so they would leave, and so what the interesting
in about egotism were craziness leaders is not just that they make bad decisions, but they also repel people who make good to say and because they go, I'm not gonna, be heard. This is functional life. too short. You know they want no part of it, and so it was this kind of constant shedding of I wanted operators that are desperately needed around him and also with I was like crazy people crazy p. Or wildly and qualify for which I was in retrospect. Obviously one so What what year does it cut? Him fall apart, this ain't it Oh be k like what happened to the end, so I wrote my first book into hasn't twelve, so like I, stayed on an was like adviser like a sort of consultant I stayed until two thousand fourteen and it it was in pressure on one point: he's sort locks himself into this this
facility in la Murat. I was like a distribution facility like he moves in their like. He has a shower installed and we often cities like sleeping mare on this and he's going in this. Is him trying to salvage? What's going on in trying to? If I work harder, it was like This is why sleep so important. He makes bad impulsive decision that reflect, in and in it as the council would have warned him against and then, instead of backing up and going shit. I shouldn't have done that he forces and then he cycle, I'm in a safe. They I'm in a move in the facility, brings every three broad everyone there is. Another factor is downtown Brings everyone there now commuting de la Murat and he's like you. Just has its basically break with realities losing his mind: the stock prices. like seventy cents and eggs won't land cause he's been sued over and over again and the border give it the boar, like a board of directors.
People ass like how did so and so get away with it. Isn't your winning people will let you get away with pretty much everything and then, when it, all the defer its like all the deferred maintenance comes to, and so the board started to a sense of what was happening and then, if it came to him, was enough There are like look, you ve run the company into the ground, but you also built this brilliant thing. They can't you know, exists without you and then there were like clears the deal. You can result and as and stay on as creative advisor, a million dollars a year and you'll keep all your shares. Or this is the press release we are putting out right now about you being fired for cars, and he does I mean, like think about it, for a minute. He walks out comes back in his eye Your number three fuck, all of you, like I wolf of just wait up I'm alive at an end. He knows I hear he
sure this hedge fund, that he is of course innocent everything he's ever been accused of that he has been unfairly thrown out. he pledges them as collateral. All of his shares and says I can. You should initiate a hostile takeover stretch drives accompanying the bankruptcy. I came back after he left to hopefully like turn things around at the request of the word, which was at grant. I was supposed to be. Writing egos the enemy as this is happening, so it was like the greatest ringside seat. You could have possibly imagined, and you know he's basically trying he's trying to jockey the thin and it's like he must have. I in retrospect, I think about it. So much it's like: not only did he knew where the body were buried, people like me also knew where the bodies are buried, because we were there when things happened like the dear, that he was going to be vindicated in this process, was delusional and you know he ends up on the ends up dry,
we get into bankruptcy, has basically choice said to death on legal fees goes into bankruptcy, his years become worthless. He's not clear in the investigation by the hedge fund, so they confiscate, the the shares, the remaining equity and he and owing them twenty million dollars. So he goes it shares. For one point worth something like five hundred or six hundred million dollars and he ends up negative. Twenty million dollars and just recently he was he is now in business with kenya west. He is running kenya. West's fashion got like so it's So far, he's now in, like the only person in the world that will do business with a notorious anti semite and dove is jewish. So it's it's just egos. You download law of gravity. so trust me, I'm not In confessions of a media manipur
later limited took the book, the euro into twelve. You see this my full time. Job then, was director of marketing for american apparel holding company known for its provocative imagery and unconventional business practices, and I would go on to found my own marketing company brass check, which had orkut great stance and marketing trickery for other hype, fire profile. science from authors, who so means of books to entrepreneurs word for hundreds of millions of dollars. I cried and shape the news for them. You We too simple, hustle, someone pays me, I manufacturer story for them and we trade it up the chain from attacks blog to a website of a local news network to read it to the Huffington as to the major newspaper to cable news and back again until the unreal comes real, sometimes or by planting a story so times I put out a pressure
yes or ask a friend to break a story on their blog. Times I leak a document. Sometimes I fabricated document and leak that really anything from vandalized wikipedia page to producing an expensive viral video. However, the starts the end, is the same. The economics of the internet are exploited to change. Like perception and sell product. Now, hardly a wide eyed kid. When I entered this world, I grew up on line and I knew that in every community there were trolls and tricksters. Like many people, I remained a believer. I thought the web was meritocracy and that the goods, generally rose to the top, but bending serious time in the media underworld watching as the same outlets who fell for easy marketing stunts seriously report on matters of policy or culture will disappear. You have that not every it will turn that hope into cynicism though I wish I could point the moment it fell. Apart when I realized that the whole thing was a giant com. I can't online,
was that eventually I did its ultimately, what for We on the path to write this book, so as you are doing all this, so that's it The crazy thing to read must be when you, when you, when I read that right now, you can like its I've relationship with that book for sure as your sort of a grown man who talks about stoicism in telling the truth in this thing is, like you were a propagandist to make money for savages yeah an end to to do that. You become a savage yeah. It was weird it was. it. The whole thing seems like a fever dream. It can have that blogger tone to a little but you're writing style on that one you know, can I still feel like that blogger. There get now like a little admission of what's going on behind the scenes yeah Why am I mean? I would have liked to have read that book, but no one had written. So I was like you know what I think I am
I knew what I wanted to write about, but I also felt like I had this unique perspective on this Let it happen outside I'll right about that. First. When you look at media and when you look at advertising now, is it all just grow steel? What's funny I remember I was writing a book. So his writing. In two thousand and eleven- and I remember telling my published this has to come out right now. like this is all going to be old news like if his the soon and then equally, it was like ten years early. You know like all things are tongue, meddler book are really what we see in complaining about today re like the idea of fake news or missing information or disinformation all like A big chunk of what I'm talking about is like what foreign actors do now and how they are likely found, for instance, in the in the two thousand and sixteen election, and with with others like russia will create like fake.
Spock groups get people around certain ideas and in those facebook group so get written about her. I was talking about that shit then, which you could do. promoting a movie or of fashion, launch order yet, like you think what american apparel would do, give an example we noticed like whenever we would do a controversial ad. Dad, I'm there would get written about till we get publicity friend. the new act, which is like your dream, come together, so I remember this one guy. He he hee she was making fake american apparel out like he would. She would put them up and then people would talk about how american parallel new outcome, or was it real or not and I realize oh, no one's even checking great and Then it turned out wasn't even real like he would. He was making these in real life. Few issues photo shopping them onto buildings, and then he would like posts that he will put them on social media than what it would write about. and so I we could do that. Why are we as if, if an american
Harold add is newsworthy. Why do we have to? for it to run somewhere. Why don't we? Just put it on our website and say this is our new at which we would So we would put ads on the american but website, and it would be like a major new story- literally was not more than a pdf, and so so as a marketing as a marketer. That's like exciting cool, crazy in interesting. the challenge, and then you go rapporteur whose writing about this at its not exist, is then stay writing about a polluter, story or cultural story? A celebrity gossip whatever, and you can't live like to set standards for headache? This is the same person just relying on the same random tipp that came, and so it was this sort slow, weekly process for me of, like hey, would I sleep and I was what I'm doing as its relatively harmless other. Certainly not so alarmist. People were
had tried to hire me many times, but realising like oh this. This is not good. This is not. This is not the world that doesn't, if america as a country. Where are your leaders are publicly elected, then, basically popular opinion is the ruler of the country that you live and right. That's how we find out about people. That's how policies get you know thumbs up or thumbs up and so we realise into this whole thing was the second that I'd I'd peaked behind. Curtain in a way that was very hard see, and so I tried to read, but that was. Compelling an interesting, but this the main message was like this is not how this is bad this week, really bad and that's not how the book ultimately was received, no how's it received. Well, that the initial media attention was like overwhelmingly negative like I was the problem.
and then what happens is low. If you are a scumbag you're, the guy that was doing this and you're a scumbag, and you made all this stuff happen. You tricked us like. I did this thing. But where there are things to be, this service is called help a reporter out. The service was like reporters like that's, it you're doing a trend piece on, and then they could be Who wants to buy crews and expert? I'm a man like me and so I was I just pretend to be an expert about a bunch of shit- I don't know anything about and let's see if they actually check. If I'm an expert was, is an online service, your help, a reporter out dot com or something? Yes, yes, whose end, and so Porto would put on their hand, doing a story about anime any experts out there and ryan holiday it'd realise, however, whoever answers first, they would talk to and so you know when you return pieces and they're like someone so says they love, skateboarding or whatever you think this is like a person they found on the street skateboarding, but
I found out this thing like they may not even own escape or write like baby to say whatever they wanted. Science couldn't like the new york times and good morning, I couldn't every media outlet. You can imagine what in what, as an expert in what about anything there even want none of anything that they wanted in that story. So if they're like, let's go to the new york times about the resurgence of final record of which I knew nothing about, and I just gave those made up this long answer about. Finally, in there I quoted the paper record in the united states and so on, is this something I'm doing for something like the thing with vinyl records, as you get that sound quality that you just don't get on a cd and and also it's something physical, that you can hold and there's a whole bunch of nostalgia, because, along with that, that's why me and my friends are out there are buying vinyl once again reinhard. You could have been in this story. That's almost exactly what it was I may not have even been a real person like this, is just an exchange. Overran us and and so this is, this is like. I'm
about this going, but this is not how the sausage should get made and the media reaction was look at this he's fucking up how sausages may not like the process is bad. So that's why at your number one. Is that and then Number two is the but starts to be. Really popular with real bad who's, gonna say this is like the anarchists cookbook eggs for four people that are wanting to figure out how to do guerrilla market zebra, gray, outlay on my right people, and just like just not good deeds were like. This is my favorite book. You know this year from people you're like. Oh that's not! I don't like that. They don't want. that to be true. How long did it take for you to realize? Like did you do a book signing where you were just a bunch of sleaze balls start asking like hey? What will you do this like? What's the best way to get people to to buy into your scam where it'd be you know you just,
Here's the weird part, so I wrote the book in and it is true that, like people's repeated tat, we call now cancelled That was not a figment but people's like reputation, only it ruined from life random, rumour, something that's not true or something is taken out of context, so tat abandoned in the book and of Davos located in the dove: was doing shit that he should have done and in some of the stuff wasn't true and so on more about the stuff that wasn't true in the book, so that the real thing. Slowly affected me on. The book was just like I have probably heard for every major person who has been me too, since the book came out they are all hundred percent innocent when they call you know I mean like, and it was this process of its pilot. What a defence attorney goes. where you start your like everyone's innocent be railroaded, and then you just like the can, the innocent and then you with their all guilty. You know, and you just start to dislike the clients that year, you know hired to protect, and so it was a kind of a process for me, like
That's not how I live my life and even when I worked in amerika repair like I was with my now wife the entire time. I was interested in the shenanigans or any of the mission for any of that shit, and so that was also just a process of like people wanting to use the book, because. They won't they wanted italy, we are convinced that they were like the victims when there were really the victimized hours in autumn in sahara. Are we really stupid and has been a profit so yeah. I mean everyone read twenty four in and as you right now, You cannot think that you're, a magician, that's like gonna tell how the magician tricks work. Yes and so then, You get people that are like you? Why are you telling how the magician trick work and you also get people go and oh I can use these magician tricks like rip people off. That's, basically what you did
and you expect great, if you, if you say how the tricks work, the trick should stop working. That was my think. People were like well why you don't matter one like if I lay at all out. Obviously all these loopholes will get closed. Re like this be possible anymore, We compelling read, but it it's the it's the final chapter in a lot of stuff and that's just not not the case there is very little and that both pets aged it somebody badly, but it's all true stuff and its excel as its sovereign right obvious, because Now, even less people get there. I mean. Social media is the main new source for most people. So it's not even like what I was talking about how social media would filter into the mainstream area. Now it's now just it, sir and anyone like you talk about how you had to like get it to a blogger, nowadays? You disapprove make about make up.
account and his fire, something often yeah fingers crossed, and now you even have to do so now you could write code that does it you can have a bar. no enemy, unlike what percentage of tweets or internet comments were these, stream things that we will be met is that person even real, probably probably yet or are they working in some? You know computer farm in Moscow. Or north korea and write like foreign actors, lest hey like if we can get, are we an attack america, but we can pit americans against each other, and so what is the most extreme shit? We can get someone to say from this side. So then people pile on that people didn't like. How do we certain ideas radioactive? Had we people against each other? How do we just driver? increase with more tender spending on social media. They're not spend in doing actual shit. The matter near I've been talking a lot lately about when I was running
the training, the advanced running, foreseeable tunes eat. You wanna do wanna put them under pressure situations, you wanna see how they're gonna perform, but one of the ways you could guarantee that they were going to fall apart and just and just do, a terrible job. Was too. If they were, any kind of like a little less. Frictional fault line inside the protein and, if that, if they couldn't, if one of them, but it's the people, tune. She first of the petition commander. If the then couldn't sort of simple neither ego and be like. Ok, fine words. Do your way if they both just held strong all of a sudden you'd get this. This little fracture will just turn into a fault line, would just turn into an earthquake, and everything would fall apart may just be hey, they would fight each other and hate each other and you'd be terrible, it's time. You can get a team to go again itself, the team is to lose, and so- It's so clear that that so much of it This happened in america right now and we
spend so little time gone. You know ryan's. good guy. He thinks this, but he seems like a good good enough. Dude. I dunno more fine, have gone well, actually, ryan thinks this he's evil person, and he doesn't even understand things, and I know everything- and I am obviously right about everything. So I hate him there is a there was a thing that really really happy home after the book came out. So I live in this little town called basher texas, you remember the jade helm, fifteen conspiracy theory. No, there was one of the first Since I ops before the election, interference in step, which is basically through these, like facebook group, They started this rumour that this is like, maybe to fifteen. Member. There is a series of like army- sizes are military exercises in the southern part of united states where they are practising for like russian invade their packs him for like an invasion in needed there doing this broad sort-
war game, the? U s, and they spread this conspiracy. Theory that that the federal government was planning to take over of the states which is ironic radical. That's what this war is about. It started in such a hurry, settle the cheaper, but but this time this conspiracy theory that, like starts in social media, then these blogs are talking about it. The news. Outlets are reporting on how people are worried about it and then like citizen arming, and then a gregg habit. The governor, sends the national guard to observe the exercises right. So they want watched as this fake thing, now suddenly, literally the the national guard and the actual army are like ten, surely in a conflict, is a right and an that's six of trade mark the kinds of stuff that I was came out in the buggy women, and this is what I think when people think cyber warfare they think like hacking. that can be part of it. Yeah you fuck up an election who grid or you know
the launch of a missile, that's, but a big chunk of is more like in. information cyber attacks, where you're spreading out things getting people riled up about stuff- that's not true near that's all. stuff. That you're talking about in that book is exacerbated. Now, yes and more true, because we're more online there. I'd like there was Even when I was running up, there is still distinction between, like the internet in real life, and now I mean just everyone- lives on the internet disturbing Your next book that you rolled into was growth hacker marketing, a primer on the future of pr marketing, an apple so what same vein. I guess a little less nefarious alive, a little less nefarious. You say this:
back to ninety. Ninety six before hotmail had launched as one the first free web mail services, it became an early example of a product going viral. As the journalist. Adam pennoned bird describes the meeting in his book I will loop hotmail founders, severe bosnia and jack jack smith, sad across the table from TIM draper, the famous venture capitalist. He told them. He thought the product web based email was greatly wondered how they get the word out body is first instinct was that industrial marketing approach we ve been talking about, will put it up on a billion, billboards arse, I will put up on billboards. He said draper next such an expensive approach. for what would be a free product, so they kicked around. We're radioactive same problem? What about sending an email to everyone in the internet draper suggested that was the that was only a slightly newer version of the old mindset. Spam doesn't work. Then draper happened accidently on growth, hacking could
you he asked, put a message at the bottom of everybody screen oh, come on: we don't we don't want to do that, but can you technically do it? Can put it. Can you put it on the one message and if you send an email to somebody else, you can put it on. one to right, yeah yeah, they replied so p s. I love you get your free email at hotmail at the bottom. This little future changed everything. It meant that every eu that hotmail user said would be an average as for the product and not advertise was effective, not because it was cute or creative, but because it showcase an amazing product that many people wanted and needed each. You know each user met new users, each email met, more emails and more happy customers and most crucial all this. be tracked and twigs and improve to drive as many users as possible into the service This was revolutionary. You go on to talk about what growth hacking is a growth hacker.
One who is thrown out the play book of traditional marketing and replaced it with only what is testable, tractable and scalable. tools are emails, data targeting blogs and platform AP eyes instead of commercials publicity in money, while their mark in brethren chase vague notions like branding in mind share, Michael share in a while ass, not one growth, hackers relentlessly pursue users and growth and They do it right. those users become evangelists for products bringing more users with them. Growth. Hackers are the inventors operators canada of a self sustaining self propagating of machine that can take a company. Just just from zero to one, but from one two hundred or a hundred million So what was it? What what made you decide to write this book? I was. I was interested in this sort of group of all those big but he's up now multi billion dollar companies,
They basically launched with no marketing whatsoever, and they grew faster than the company has ever grown and sort of water, lessons, and then I may, I think, about your brands rate like if, established, like consumer packaged goods, company was gonna, launch any of the stuff you dead and they were alike or what gonna cost ten million hunt right like the whole thing would have been at it, had almost incomprehensible skill and almost certainly felt like what what's there what's their hitting percentage and extremely low and then you look at these. People are built. These huge brands off the back a similar instagram account or a youtube channel, or you know like in Seoul really interested in how, like the game, had sort of fundamentally change like what what don draper was doing. Can madman is not how marketing works. Did I mean? Is it works once you that's kind of what you do at at a very high level at once, you're already huge, but when you're buildings
from scratch, which is what most of us are doing. I'm try launch a coffee shop or a book or a brand or studio whatever it is restarting from zero to its really like, How do you go from zero to those first people? and when we learn from like the best people that have ever got a net that idea of growth, like one of facebooks early decisions is they didn't, have a marketing department, they had a growth department and it seems like a kind of a semantic difference, but like a marketing department does marketing and a growth department grows right like eat? Just a word there is is illustrated. In a market in this region through a premiere party, we bought it, teacher, you know, if it's all this stuff, that's cool, we'll, have a booth at the sundance film festival or would break it stopped. Its call for the mark
yours, but nobody knows works or not, and so all about that. That's what it's about and that book with a book which we are about to vote is a kind of prove the book started as an article and it became in a book. Then it was a paper back and then it was an extended it's an insect third or fourth edition, so it was kind of a weird. It is also not how books really work with when you wrote when trust me on line came out what that cannot through traditional publisher, and you got a book deal how'd you get about you I got an agent. I knew tim ferris ass agent to we have saved agent, steve I just went and I didn't it so I just wrote. I wrote the book I was like this is the book it's coming out regardless and then I I saw. I showed it to him asking me if he thought I could and it did so. It's all that an auction ruses, big thing. It was funny. Actually, then that then, we put about the publishers out, an auction yeah yeah, I got it was a hot book hooker
which is pretty cool, had like twenty four. But then the funny thing is when I announced it, I just doubled the size of the advance. I just said you know I said Eric. I paid like a half knowledge for which it didn't happen. Nobody checks, press releases and so then than the thing got a bunch of press as this like huge books. Some sort prove my point. but but So then too then did you do all your viral marketing for that book yea and how the hell did you? Do it's really? Well, it's all really! Well You got a lot more attention than its own copies its It's the really well and then to growth but came out and then then, as I went to my publisher, and I said I shall remember the exact talent, but when I had done is marking books. I went to my publisher nose like for my next book I like to read about an obscure school of ancient. And they relate. She was like a record scratch thin and
That was that was the big serve pitted italy. Pivot to them? To me, there is always one I wanted to when you are doing this doing marketing, two works right here seems like you have to be good at marketing these books and do well with him. Otherwise, it's kind of like we know. Why are you teaching us about this stuff? That's I told him. I was like, as a watch me proof, as I watch me prove in this book, which I wish I D, and so you pulled it. if you pull it off with both those books, did you do that sort of growth, hacker marketing eventually come out on a traditional publisher? So I yes! Yes, it did I'm actually all my luxor with the same publisher except for my kids' books, because you gave me some advice on cellphones, They are of a retreat and what about temporarily. this book this the four hour chef
What was your involvement with that? So I met him right before I dropped out of college actually to two dozen seven at par hats help south west, and we became friends, and so I we're gonna marking on all his books, and I mean It took a job because I want to learn from ten madrid learned so much from his is a genius there and you can just watch those things become just absolute monster, but yet we do the marketing per. But that was a weird book, though, because it was the book the came out on amazon publishing and he got hated by every other. Normal publisher and they wouldn't carried in bookstores. It was man, yeah basin, he got busily. All the retailers teamed up and said. Why would we carry a book from our biggest existential threat, and so we during this thing, where we gave a huge chunk of it away and bit torrent, which was like a piracy website. and and so
millie, but millions of people download it in the books on supply. Is weird, so I met tim entered is to blame for, like everything that I do right now, so good job him proceeded. But when I met him- my first book had come out yet and the things that he was saying to me? I was you know like thinking? Ok, yes, I'm ok brought you know because it done well and It was so weird that my publisher. I mean my publishers now what has it been almost eight years later? There are now more, for lack of time work hip to what's going on, but at the time they what the, how far ahead strategically timber This was in two thousand fifteen was was, was busy, for example, he said he's like I'm gonna put spock gas or my book was coming out extreme owners. was coming out.
over twenty four something like this and he says yup he's echo this depart gases cause I recorded upon us my first ever interview with him. He secondly put upon cast out September one of great september and I said these it that way when you get prevails on amazon scrabble. He had this off this whole thing and so, my publisher and n they said they said, you get him to put the podcast out the the week of book. Launch and I was like I'll ask him, and so I said, hey man. They really want you to put this out on the week of the book. Large unease I like that's, because they have no idea what they're talking to and he and he was just so right cause now I've done it a bunch of times and he he was just so right and he just new q. He had so much strategic insight ass to what was happening compared to what the traditional but publishers and look there's some great people. I I have a teen there,
that right has helped me launch a bunch of books, the done a great job, but he definitely was ahead of the power curve when it came to. How did I get this shit downright, I think, would Timmins tim, special skill, tim special skills that he figures out like he deconstruct the system. The forty does anything three fingers out like what actually moves the needle what actually works, what the lodge of the world that is operating in and then he's like weirdo. have an advantage. What are people not Taking advantage of you know anything All of that, so I can give you an example here also to blame, slash the the beneficiary for me, all the stuff that I've done? My my first couple look, the amount needed all right, but I remember I was we were both at this conference in amsterdam and I was working on the obstacles when agenda gave him that I was like what are you working on? I'm like I'm working on this book about stoic philosophy, because he and I both are really into it and he's like. Let me read it and ass. I gave it to him and he's
Let me by this hasn't, when you mean I'm sorry sold to a publisher, is no let me by the audio book rights. This was in two thousand and thirteen before were audio, was before audible is huge. Tim was like anybody me buy and I think he might be both rights from my publisher, for like five thousand dollars, and down and my pop poachers like absolutely not. You know trouble idea. We want to do it. It's either that or they didn't even care, but I remember being of animals are just let him do it. Every once in a restaurant Have you seen my agent sir brokered at opposite? It works with others. Embodies the audible grades. He recalled, I think, on the fourth episode on park, as I think, launched it to promote this audio books, publishing arm that he did. He visitors went and bought the audio book rights to bunch of his favorite books, knowing audio books, we're gonna, be huge and then more
he also knew that audible paid like a fifty percent, refer bonus for any new subscribe, two audible so he knew like not only see, recommending a book that he on rights too You joined audible for doing it. He got like huge cuts of your like commission. So so you were all this out and I'm in the audio books of that was waste with hundreds of thousands of copies and, than I can my next to also materially this is basically I'm below when people up on my blog gives like I'll just take a stake in the things there. And- and so you just did- that every every time. I remember at self myself best twitter launched like that. the year that twitter launched when I was a dozen seven and I was like this- this idea in the world and TIM invested
TIM Tim has an eye for whatever is going to be a cheerleader shirt and he he he figures out like what resources are under exploited or undervalued, and that's even his investing like hobbies. The big investors, but he also realise like angel, invest in is the most efficient. way to invest. put in a large amount of money, and so He was able, and can he also understand from personal status, cartridge there that like he was- just a genius at figuring out where stuffs going and he gets in very early, and that's why I mean that's. Why is huge yeah. He told me to sign up for twitter and he's at easter, Are you really should get on twitter? It's a great way to get information, it's great way to meet people and all of a sudden get connections with people that you wouldn't otherwise connect with that I don't know how to do it and he's like don't worry I'll show you I'll show you how to work it now so yeah I'll I'll I'll, walk you through it and the I signed up. Fourteen
it'll be a damn thing about it, but I mean he was early in the podcast. He was earlier. Social he's been er, but he did tell me he's like it's. You don't have to be. First you just have to be early, so he lets people gotta figure it out. He he read like this very few, where tim has gone wrong, You know I mean like like he does. he's not like he's not just like picking and horses and some of them when he he he waits to adjust its action, sure enough, and then he dives any johnson with two feet and any fuckin crushes yeah. No, he told me to start a podcast to like as soon he pressed stop on the recorder. I remember weirdest at his house in in san francisco at the timer and he pressed stop and he looks at me and he said you should start a podcast and I was like ok, yeah veto and then run, and told me the same thing, but it was. It was tim, just like pressed up. Look at me said you start up. As you know,
like. Thank god. He told me that it is. I listen to them. That's pretty wild! So you're doing so, you have helped to this marketing on all his books and Then you start with the obstacle. The winner. How long have you been into stoicism, for I felt stolen. Before I got a call, it shows when the obstacles him out and what happened to us in fourteen. So what What was the was a connection to it? it marks rios his meditations, which has just I think, one of the most incredible and unique historical documents to ever access to major right. The most powerful man in the world, Maybe the wisest man in the world at that time is right in private. To himself campaign with the roman army about what He needs to do to be better the human being as a leader and and to not be corrupted. the power that he holds, and he never intends it for publication in
against all odds like twenty centuries later we can read it it's a miracle. I mean it. It's just. Nothing in every one of my books in your books, were writing there's some. a form of development for right, like there's some it's out false, but there is something in it where you're writing for the reader. So wrong authentic about meditations is that it's for him. It's interesting of asked since first prob five within five park, ass em on three hundred ninety four. Now people like, oh you recover cover surrealism, meditations, end actually of legitimate. What I think is a legitimate reason: why haven't done it, the legitimate reason as if you read the public, if you read meditations, you need no further explanation. There's an I can read it to you, But I have nothing else to say: really
every one of the statements and that you go yeah that stands on its own and this stand on its own, and this stands on its own and that's why I've never taken the time I suppose I will at some point just maybe have a conversation around around it, but it is so self evident. What he is saying in there maybe because of what you just said, maybe because it's not performed if it doesn't take any it doesn't take any. gushing to uncover- anything else. It is what it is worth. That's what what just about sources was like stoicism, has been philosophical tradition for twenty three hundred or so years that some wisest smartest was powerful. People use. It was widely wildly popular nature. What why Is it not more popular in economic life right and the answer, I think is it's hard to specialise in the study of stoicism has a philosopher at harvard or whatever, because it's all fucking
and yeah it's you there's no theories about what marcus was thinking or did he mean ness or it's like he said what he means, and it's so boiled down and stripped of artifice or pretension no paradoxes or caught like the the paradox is that some time, she says this, and sometimes he says that right and people go does contradicting himself and it's like to a practical, regular person. You know so and you do this, and sometimes you do that great, like just so simple and accessible in real, like they weren't like how do, No, if we are not living in a simulation or not or like. How do we know if, if there's thing is good or or evil right like it's. Just it's just pray, to go we'll shit about what it is to be. Person in a world where the vow, a majority of what happens is outside your control You did you read in high school,
read it my four aggression near of college. Did you, art to apply them in your own life, obviously somewhat hit her miss. I think I figured I think what struck me at nineteen was like the passage about getting out a better early in the morning with him opening of book. Five and meditations he's, like at dawn. When you awake in any interrupts himself- and he goes But it's warmer here, because this is what you are put here on this planet to do to huddle under the covers and stave warm like the most powerful and the world is having. Debate with himself about whether he should get up early or not, and so I think that strikes you up here a human right like you're. That's me, you know, maybe not you, but At the same thing- and this is- Another thing, that's been interesting for me, so you know once again, we were talking before hit record. I didn't read like when I was growing up, I was I was an eye- was a novel after. I was not. You know my my
Mom was english teacher. My dad was a history teacher, my They were met. My mom read all the time, my dad red seven newspapers a day. They were just very in two reading there were teachers, you know that's what they did and I was not I don't know. I can't think of any books that are actually read in high school and I dont think I actually read any books. Nice going might have read one or two. You know for some the english class. something like this, and I apologize to my english teachers that I didn't didn't. But I just wasn't going to go in the military. As you know, I just I just didn't seem to be something that I need to get done. In fact, at one point, my mom was was I was already in the navy and it was probably like you know like year, two maybe two years into the navy and my mom says like oh: have you read any good books lately and I said well, no,
said, why would I need to read a book? Do you suppose that might be interesting? I said if it's interesting they'll make it into a movie and she said well what if they don't make a movie, and I said if they don't make it into a movie, it wasn't that interesting. That's average of eighty idiot I was it wasn't until I went to it was so it's a thin As I was moving up, ex seal teams and eventually realised how important writing wasn't so I started route focusing on it. in, and I also started reading military history books like a hundred percent solely nothing else, because I could relate to it because I was like. Oh, this is about war. This is what my life posts to be like, and then when I went to college, I knew that began A good writer would really help the guys that What four makes you gonna write awards for them? You gotta right. evaluations for them. It's you gonna write concept of opera, you write all the time, if you're an officer in the military, and so I wanted to get good at it and that's why I studied english and then I started to read. Then I started reading.
time and- and I remember when I was in college- you know right once MR took five english I causes an english major. It was horrible, but I mean that's gonna be reading for eight hours and I also contrary to high school I was in college- and I was I went to college after I've been in the navy for yourselves a groan adult human. I would read. I read every single assignment that I got a hundred percent. I read, every single page of every single assignment that I ever gotten college, which isn't I don't think I don't think there's very many people at all that do that, and I don't even know if I was that smart, but that's what I did so reading, all the time then, but like when I started upon captain I started getting interviewed and I'd get people asking me about. You know philosophy. I remember I was on stage one time in a guy said: who is your of all of our philosophers? Who's, your favorite philosopher and my answer. I said: let me enough of motor have because I just didn't I have it and as
people started. Saying oh jack was writing is is It's very stoic writing and even worse, let's talk about getting on a bend morning strike out, but I have written about that, a autonomy times. It is all the same, but you know eventually did upon cast about it, because you know it's all. You talk about the same thing that san Suu and the same thing that marcus, aurelius and well you put a human into certain environments like war or leadership positions, and they look around and they they make mistakes they learn from. It makes make some other mistakes and from eventually you're gonna get to see place. That's it's it's a normal place to end up and that's kind of where I ended up, and then I looked around and said, oh my gosh know like these guys been talking about this for so long. I wish I I wish it would include on that when I was younger but have but that's went up. You end up, saying oh discipline, ecosphere! I I said, discipline equals freedom for the first time. I remember a brief it to these
junior officers. This is like circuit two thousand and seven two thousand eight I'd. and have told you one thing about stoicism and yet are, ro. I would tell these guys if you want freedom in your job in your life. You need to have discipline. You know me yeah, I got some of it from all from black, Henry rollins because I grew up. You know listening to listen black flag and hearing Henry rollins talk about discipline but I realized oh yeah, that discipline that he's talking about. If you apply it to your life, you wonder for freedom in your life and discipline equals freedom. This is and then I realized what applies to your team to like. If you have guessed well tuned they're gonna be able to operate with much more with with much more hands off and make things happen quicker. So it was very interesting to me, too kind of arrive at a place that is Well, you're gonna end up its work and end up. If you get put in,
war, you get put into leadership positions, you makes mistakes. You learn from you put it makes mother mistake. You learn from you live a life, you it's it's where you hopefully end up, I think this is why stoicism in buddhism, for instance, have somebody similarities is that if you boil human condition, the human experience and boil history down enough times: you're not left without much. Your left Basically this idea that control. What happens when you control how we respond to what happens and that these events are opportunities to to be great, to be excellent right and that that's like the core. That's the and I think that's what struck me reading marks rules for the first time is like when people here philosophy they think impractical. They think the radical think abstract They think incomprehensible, ready. Think college professor talking about interested. Ideas, but that they don't do anything but confuse you
and then you read, meditations seneca epictetus in they're, like life is spoken hard here's what you can do about it like here, don't emperor try to be a dead person. You know epictetus is is asked to be We boil all of stoicism down as simply as possible, and it is, I can do two words what secretary, but he says Do it in basically to terms persist, resist some things. You need to keep doing, and sometimes you need to stop doing right like that's it. It's not that come get it right and, why the golden rule appears in all the different religious traditions as there's not that much stuff. It's really just comes down to life. Who can say it was clearly and then who tradition, does a good job of living up to it, right, like That's what I think so interesting about marks really is the most For me, the world, literally, as a god commands. The roman army has unlimited wealth.
and you know this is to corrupt. Absolutely he has the absolute power so that power corrupts it's. That absolute power corrupts absolutely and then you kind of have this exception to the rule, and he writes about it in meditation, see those be careful, not become caesar fide and not to be stained purple because the roman emperor, whereas a purple cloak and just oh yeah, Maybe it didn't happen for him because he was meditating in his journal about making sure that that didn't happen like he was he was. working on it and philosophy was a way to do it, He also regimentation is his says, fight to be the person that philosophy tried to make you into, and it was like. Oh yeah. This is like a pep talk from is a petty he's having with his with himself about living up to his potential as a virtuous purse that is almost certainly struggling to in the midst of fresh
in annoying obnoxious life. So two thousand fourteen you you right there, because the way, here's here's a section from that in the year one seventy at night in ten on the front lines of the war in germania, This really is the emperor of the roman empire sat down to write, or perhaps it was before dawn at the palace in rome, or he stole a few seconds to himself during the games. Ignoring the carnage on the floor of the colosseum below the exact location is not important. What matters is that this man, known today as the last of the five good emperors, sat down to right, not to an odd, for publication, but to himself for himself and what he wrote is undoubtedly one of trees most effective formulas, for overcoming every negative situation we may encounter in life a formula for
driving, not just in spite of whatever happens, but because of it. At that moment he wrote only a paragraph. Only a little of it was original, almost every thought, could in some form or another, be found in the writings of his mentors and idols, but in a school, and eighty five words This really is so clearly defined and articulated a timeless idea that he eclipses great names of those who came before him is more than enough for us quote actions may be impeded, but there can be no impeding or tensions or dispositions, because we accommodate and adapt the mind gaps and convert to its own purposes, the obstacle to our active, and then he concluded, with the powerful words destined for maximum quote the impediment to action, fancies action? What stands in the way becomes the way
in marcus's words marcus his words the secret to an hour on no, as turning obstacles upside down to act, a reverse clause so there's always a way out or another route to get where you need to go so that setbacks Problems are always expected and never permanent king certain that what impedes us can empower us. And then you go on to say there are you things to keep in mind when faced with a seemingly insurmountable obstacle, we must try to be objective to control emotions and keep an even keel to chew. to see the good and the situation steady your nerves, to ignore what disturbs or limits others to place. Things in perspective, to revert to the to the present moment, to focus on what can be controlled. This is how you see opportunity within the obstacle. It does not happen on its own. It is, process, one that results from self discipline and logic and that
Logic is available to you. You just need to deploy the articles, the lange I was very core issues. This is no one of my. I think it might be the most popular clip I've ever made as this clip from upon it. S got good right in a story about. This is something that was saying again before I had any recognition of any this stuff. I tell my june platoon commander sandstone caves, gone wrong good. Now we the object overcome it and all that As you know, the record is: there's, no wonder people late. Do it's one of those think that's been boiled down over time and just true when we can imagine that he'd know from experience. Oh it's! Ok! We just found out this when we just received news of this set backward. This person just affected, or you know this person just died right- is that the emperor would be nobody. good news to the emperor
she's gonna be bad news after badges, especially for marcus's, ran it's it's kind of tragic this philosopher, king. He inherited thrown from a man and antinous. Pious is basically twenty years of peace and press, Already and then Marcus's ran, there's a plague. The internet plague, there's series of historic floods, the almost the entire reform are almost the entire reign of marcus real time is, is that war series of porter skirmishes and he berries, six children like it's one thing after another, for this guy and and it's not that it's good, like that, he would have chosen it that he was happy that had happened it was an opportunity for him to deploy the ideas, insight as you know, I mean, like everyone but here the obstacles way. It's like others can be grateful business like no, your business might just barely survive right word, it might go out of business, but it can be good
are you as a human being, you can learn something from it. You can grow stronger from it. You can practise forgive is acceptance like like when we say that everything is an opportunity at the time the opportunity is like humility, or acceptance or learning from your mistakes. It's not mad, quickly a springboard to exactly where you wanted to go. Like sometimes wife wouldn't kicks you in the chest like a thousand times and and and when we see the obstacles, ways that it's an opportunity to practice, two and excellence inside that should, in fact, had I've had a brief a few people on that over the years in terms of taking ownership of things, and they think oh well. Well, you said, if I take ownership, you don't listen to that. It wouldn't be a problem, but I know you did something wrong. You have to take ownership. That doesn't mean the problem went away. You still have to solve the problem or or fix the problem or say you're sorry and me commends it? Do things to win?
the trust that you broke like yeah. All that starts with ownership. Ownership doesn't make problems, go away, they just it Jesus a place to start when a lot of ownership as a leader owning shit. That's not your fault, you didn't screw up you choose to be too for it to have and in this moment that you just sancho if savings in something and then a pandemic happens or you know, there's a strike or You know what you don't use any of that, but it still like it's your fucking problem. And you you have to go well. How is this problem gonna? Make me better yeah in I felt was we ve had a very interesting extra experiences will work with companies. We work with companies, I've of accounts to company called national front. We have watched of companies that we work with most of the time it probably gone up, I uses a say, eighty percent or eighty five percent of the time. Now it's probably ninety five percent, the time where work with companies that actually are doing, how they want to do better
bring us on to help them with their leadership. Five poorest the time working brought in by some external component like let's say the board, who says a this company's failing? Can you go help them Can you get their leadership in order and reception that we get in the ninety five percent of companies that are doing well was like we're so happy you're. Here we want to learn from you and the reason that they're doing well is because their humble enough to say when the market shifts they call. We judge that well, here's an adjustment we can make, or if the competitor did this and they didn't expect it so now they got to counter that by doing this move and they admit that they got you know the competitor got a one up on him when the board This is because the companies failing there The action is like well, we're only failing cause the competitor this and the market did that, and the union said this, and our investors did that it's never their fault. That's why they're failing because they don't change anything because they don't think therefore, so when you're the leadership position
it. Actually is your fault. It actually is your fault when something goes wrong and you didn't plan for union predicted a you'd have a backup, you didn't have contingency. It's your fault. And by the way means you have the ability to say. Ok, I made him I called his where I thought was going to happen. This would actually happen. Here's the adjustments are going to make so letting your ego blame. Other people is a complete disaster. Stir and doesn't work when in a most beautiful passages in meditations at the beginning markets list. his debts and lessons like what he learned from all the people in his life- and he has is, he becomes emperor kind of a remarkable process right leg he his dad is not emperor it comes from no royal family, it's at there's busy, five male, emperors and dont. Have a son or- and his any children so Hadrian is getting old and
he he sees something in this boy, marcus aurelius. Who is sort of unfailingly honest and decent, and he wants him to become king, but he's way too young and he thinks that's the worst thing you could possibly do to someone he adopts a sky antimony minus who is like one of the most respected politicians in rome. and actually what seals it for Hadrian's, he watches no antinous doesn't think anyone's watch him and he watches antinous hell. His elderly, father in law, up a flight of stairs and because this this guy is it so he adopts antinous who in turn has to adopt Marcus real So he sets in motion this succession plan and hatred probably thinks you know: antenatal live like five or six years in them. more antenatal israelite, almost two and a half decades after that, as one of the longest running emperors, just that alone, so Marcus gets like twenty plus years of apprenticeship under a great man, and it goes
but ways I mean like antonyms- could very quickly killed marcus aurelius, that's what you might expect to happen or or marks really could have tried to kill Instead, they decide like know what that's really do this I want to learn from you. I wanted to to, and they have this beautiful relationship in the beginning of meditations marcus lists all the things that he learns from aunt Ninus, and it's one of the most beautiful Oscillations of what makes a great human being in a great leader is like he teaches me when to listen to experts when deceived the floor. How to be on Austin Asia is happy he even learns he's like animals would planned his bathroom breaks, so that, could be more efficient at the job, You know you just let all the stuff that he just learned from this great man and you get this and that marcus when he does empowering suddenly, there's no check on him whatsoever. To me, things he doesn't want to let this guy he doesn't he wants to follow in
tradition that he was raised and it's just. This is beautiful and totally unique historical situation of which more this adds a cherry on top, so Marcus gets a step brother. As a result, this, and he knew mrs step, brother, co, emperor? The first thing he does with absolute power is it gives half of it away again has never happened and will probably never happen again and and it's just I mean there's so much like there's so much you can study from this person. There. I remain endlessly fat, even all these years later, just everytime, I think about it. Every time every time. I pick up meditation. I get something else out of Michael. Oh, how did You know how did you not even even them even during covert like I didn't really think of meditations as a plague book. but he wrote it during a fifteen year plague that soldiers brought back from the east,
edges of the empire. That sounds familiar it and there he does his there's two types of plagues there is one that can take. Your life is like that's pretty bad, and then it's like one that can destroy your character and that's the worst one and a half years ago shit. humans were exactly the same during coven as they were during the anti plague and always have been always will be, and that's what that's what's so cool about philosophy is like the timelessness of it or that yeah ego is basically the plot of every greek play. And tragedy, flash for to every superhero movie, like it's just eager, that's the main thing what was your as your working american apparel. How did you still philosophy line up, delight. Dismay him, that's going on. There live in just generally a philosophy of life discipline ethics and end like trying to,
a decent person having thou wilt thou back their kept me out of trouble, so did so to being effectively married, but I think watching someone who had not absolute power but is watching the way that wealth and power and business and fit, and all that just watch in the way that can or some one it's pretty. It's pretty I'm with real and also super scary. You know to watch some one that pit like dove saw me, and I see something of myself in you then to watch him spin off the planet. That was a thousand real had fuck would introduce. The topic of vigo and I'm talking to companies and people. I talk about when a threat. It is, and then I explained that there's countless example throughout military history, where someone's ego
drove them to make decisions that got thousand. If not tens of thousands of people killed. And in many cases themselves killed so they would rather die than Yet they were wrong rather die than defensible. made their eager to someone else rather die than change. Their plan cause the plan they came up with, and I say: listen if people we'll die for their ego. Trust me you can you can like overrule someone cause you? Don't you don't like the way they looked at you and that's all ego that's a scary thing I mean macarthur- was this close to world war? Three. This clause and that's not a new, I mean he was. He had the same job as so many of the roman generals. Who did this exact same faint cry like the overreaching is. Is the thing is a great m epictetus quotas?
Remember. It is impossible to learn that what you think you already know so, on the on the one hand, there's there's the ego of of the overreach of the ex super, talented, even egotist, but we forget, although sort of silent casualties of ego, who we never hear of because they never got like they just got fired life on their first day or they never graduated from cut like they never made it because, like nobody could teach them what they. They already knew everything if you just go rockstar let destroying their career. But what the one that blew up the record deal. Before it was even silent because you're just a dick iris wanting talk ruddy go when we would fire. A seal leader from me at position. We would fire a ceo leader not because they didn't know how to read a map, not because they didn't know how to shoot their weapon, we'd fire them because their ego, because they lack humanity. Then, when you humility to listen anybody else. You you're just gonna you're, just gonna implode and it's it's absolutely terrible, and I also tell people
You look ever got some natural amount of leadership capability different, it was different skill set. Some people are good at simplifying things. Some people are very articulate. Some people have a loud voice and it took a commanding presence like oh, let's get different levels of those any any. Those who can get better in those cattle where you can prove in some way unless you're benito maniac where you ok emoting and then then I really just can't help you like you're, just going to be a terrible person and a terrible leader and you're not going to get better because you don't listen anybody else and you think you're perfect, so going back to potatoes UK. I can teach you anything if you really think you know what you're just screwed, what it's like, if you you know everything you right can't learn anything else and if you think, you're perfect, you also can't get any better. It was. weird deal with guys with big egos elegant in a sealed james. You got a lot of wealthy myself included but you're, not you sign up and go. Do the the quote hardest training in the world because you don't you can make no you're like up. Do this, let's go
Then you roland with some of these guys and you can just see the look on her face, doesn't matter. Sometimes their senior to use sometimes are junior. Do you it doesn't matter looking at him, and you can see that what you're saying they if they do not think need this information and they know better than you at sea. Gull k: well maybe my ego, asia, ok, explain your perspective and you realize that they, their perspective is the only thing in the world to them and they end up getting fired. This away works terrible, I'm gonna work with a lot of support schemes and I have to and that they all talk about through the best in the world do till you got here and so that you know and then can you do you have? If you have confidence, you can become good again if you have ego, you will get destroyed because now, all of a sudden you get your ass kicked you don't know. Doing it doesn't feel natural like shaka. Smart is a great basketball coach at marquette. He was talking about how people go like they always quit. The players always quit cause it's not fun.
More and is like the game. Is the exact same amount of fun? You just don't not being good rail. You don't like the learning curve. That's what you're objecting to and in the realisation that, like life and progress, is this constant process of bumping up interior limitations and the things you don't know and if you will like that and you get better from Then you keep growing and if you're the person for whom that struggle is immensely painful and uncomfortable in its threatens your identity and self worth as an as a human being, a fact. Here's We fought ego is the enemy. Let me get a lecture blown from here in nineteenth three dwight de Eisenhower returned from his inaugural parade and entered the white house for the first time as president late in the evening as he walked into executive mansion, his chief usher handed eisenhower. Two letters marked confidential and secret that had been sent to him earlier in the day
Eisenhower's reaction was swift. Now bring me a sealed envelope, he said firmly that's what staff for house now- right at the office. Gone to his head already, not at all Eisenhower now recognised this when we insignificant event for what it was a symptom of, organised dysfunctional organization, not breathing needed to run through him. Was to say that the envelope was even important. Why hadn't anyone screened it has, in his first priority in office, was organizing executive branch into a smooth functioning order driven unit just like his military units have been not because He didn't want to work himself, but because everyone had a job and he trusted and empower them to do it as his chief of staff. later put it. The president does the most important things I do the next most important things the public image of eisenhower. Is women playing golf in reality he was not someone who were ever slacked off, but the list
time he did have was available because he ran a tight ship. He knew that urgent and important or not symptoms, heat His job was to set the priorities to think big picture and then trust the p beneath him to do the jobs they were hired for, most of are not the president or even president of accompanied by moving. The latter in life. The system, and work habits that got us where we are wont necessarily keep us there, we're aspiring or small time, we can be it listen. Craddock we can compensate for disorganization with hard work in a little luck. That's not the cut it in the majors, in fact, it'll sink you if you can grow up and organise. We can contrast. eisenhower system in the white house with the infamous car company by John delorean when he walked away from g to produce his brand of futuristic cars, a few dec, aids remove from the company spectacular approached implosion, we can be forgiven,
we're thinking. The man was just ahead of his time, in fact, rise and fall is time was a story. As there is power. Hungry narcissist undermines its own vision. It loses millions of dollars of other people's money in the process. Delorean was convinced that the culture of order and discipline a gm had held brilliant creatives like himself down when he sat when he set out to found it company. He deliberately did everything differently flouting conventional wisdom in business practices. The result was not the free wheeling, creative sanctuary that delorean naive envisioned. It was instead and overbearing. We political, dysfunctional and even corrupt organization that collapsed. Through its own weight. Actually resorting to criminality in fraud and losses of some two hundred fifty million that Delorean failed. Both as a car and as a company, because it was mismanage from top to bottom, with an emphasis on the mismanagement at the top by the top. That is laurie himself was the problem compared
eisenhower, he worked constantly with different results. Very different results, as one executive put, it Delorean have the ability to recognise a good opportunity, but he didn't know how to make it happen. Another, negative described his management style as cheating, colored balloons. He was constantly distracted and abandoning one project for another he was genius savvy, that's right early enough, though probably not on purpose delorean created as a culture in which you go, ran free, convinced that country, you'd success was simply his by right. He seemed to bristle at concepts like discipline, organization or strategic planning. Employee these were not given enough direction and then the other times overwhelmed with trivial instructions. Dolores couldn't delegate except a lackeys who blind whose blind loyalty was prized, overcome parents or skill.
Top of all this. He was often late or preoccupied executives were allowed to work. An extra curricular activities on the company dime encouraged, specifically to chase side projects that benefited their boss at the expense of the company. As ceo delorean often bent the truth to investors, fellow officers and suppliers, and habit was, could was contagious throughout the company like many people driven a demon delorean decisions were motivated by everything, but what should what would have been efficient, manageable or responsible, improving or fixing gm system, it's as if he threw out order altogether what ensued was chaos in which no one followed the rules. No one was accountable and very little got done, The only reason it didn't collapse immediately was that delorean was a master of public relations, a skill that held the whole story together until the Faulty cars came off the assembly line, not surprising,
The cars were terrible, they didn't work. Costs per unit was massively over budget. They hence ensured enough dealers. They couldn't deliver cars, the ones they had the launch a disaster delorean motor company never recover. It turns out that becoming a great leader is difficult. Who knew yeah classic in its classic. You know- and I just talked about this point- was freedom from a just personal back to britain, also inside of an organisation. If you have an on discipline organization you end up with where nothing can happen. Nothing can get done. No one knows war. What direction we're gonna! Just total chaos. You think it fun to get to do whatever you want and it's the worst thing we could possibly wish on someone and good chunk of what I was writing about. There is obviously what I'd just sawyer at american apparel like we have. This again, this idea of the leader doing everything everywhere being always accessible. Like I mean when I first got their deaths have said something about how you she added an open door policy, any employee.
Com at any time. He would answer- and I remember thinking how it should be done and then, with time- and I saw at first hand you go- we ve got turned fifty stores and twenty countries at twelve thousand employees, You always have someone away with a problem in sometimes out, and so You get woken up from a ted sleep because some your manager in korea didn't think they were and if overtime, and you know so, he's he's he's not here. not only take care of himself as a human being, but here, No ability to see big picture doesnt realize he's making these massive strategic mistakes, because what he thinks he's doing he's giving himself credit These technical corrections he's making problems he saw, he doesn't realize, is getting further and further off course and so you end up. I'm robber green told me this distinction once between strategic Heaven and tactical hell,
An egotism is a good way to get stuck or sucked into tactical hell. You think busy and you are the centre of everything else, but you in anything that the end. You is very gratifying as well, because your solving problems and people are praising you you got stone. Oh, you got up the new cap register order for that store in south korea. Great you did a great job. They're gonna get deliver tomorrow and you're you're hailed because of it. Meanwhile, you know Three quarters away. You haven't ordered the material that you need to get the job when I looked out of the window. One time of my office, I stared in fees direct and traffic in the parking lot and again. The seems like that this seems like a humble, like roll up. Shirtsleeves do anything leader and there is a place sometimes for that, especially almost like it's a showmanship like watch me. You want to see or bluebird sometimes drive a newborn, get a sense of what it is, but dove was doing because he had passed, something on the way in and it bothered him
instead of having competent staff. The way that an officer would the goes you need to fix. Right now, when I come back downstairs, better have gone away he's doing it himself and what he's doing taking his eye off the ball and and he likes the image and the image is cool The reality is if the sea, always nothing in big picture, know some, I can direct traffic, but no one can do what you do that that requires a certain discipline. It also requires an acceptance of things not being the way that you want them to be got the hard thing. yeah there's a certain level. I just was talking with some clients, as there is a level of risk with decentralized comment that the traffic I'm like a ryan that traffic down there in the parking lot was terrible. You need get that squared away, there's a chance. It's that you're gonna do something: that's not quite what I would have done to get. That's fine! That's fine! I often say that the best
operations that we would go on in Iraq. I'd have to say anything have to do anything on the overall guy in charge, but I have to say anything because everyone knows what they're doing and they just make things happen, which is the way should be, and I never had to like if a guy did something wrong and have had correct that individuals are depicted regarding the team would take care of it, which is exactly the way it should be isn't crazy. Then a guy like dove can so talented and and genius to use your words and yet just I see these things, which are so obvious right now to just about anybody that watches that work of destruction unfold. I mean here- you see this in sports all the time. This is the most talented person in the world and yet
if not, why they're getting caught that someone, cairo irving. These going from time to time to team right, like its army, in two seconds. What that these problems, but you can't fix it or he's not willing to fix it, and so I think someone like self helper in personal development stuff, it's like a bad rap, but. The willingness to work on oneself to like look at your problems in the mere too to focus on winning there hats important work and not enough people do and it's not that egotistical people were people. It is thought that they don't become success. One dove still is in a very large mansion. You know lots of yes. Well, people were horrible. their city leaders. It's it's that at present them from doing the things that they could have done and that that's, like the shame of you, know what I mean like it: Steve jobs gets fired by apple.
Deservedly so like his come back story is a result of his willingness to do work on himself, but, like you, don't always get that second chance. I if you think about, had great people who pissed off their publisher, their record label or people who play well with others in the depriving the world an themselves of stuff they could have done, and it's really set like again the invisible graveyard of things that could have an accomplished if people like chat check is talked about, the number of rings at he encoded could have one together. Rather you look at them. the brooklyn, that's like. That was the greatest super team ever assembled and they may be to be on the court together like nineteen times and again there all very rich, all very successful. All clearly performing at an elite level, There was some some ceiling that they bumped to that. I could have broken through. Had they been able to listen to, you now
listen to the people around them. A huge part of that is having the ability to detached from yours health and take a look at what happens when you say like self help, which is negative. Add rapper or whatever, but part of what you're gonna do in those situations is you're going to take a step back and look at what you're doing yeah, which if you're in a business and the business is going well and what you do to try and fix it is go deeper into it and and closure your blinders even more you, see the mistakes that you're actually making I've been saying a lot you the solution to a problem is an inch the problem you when you're in the problem? You don't see the solution you have to get outside that problem and when you're the problem you have to get outside of yourself. You have to take a step back and look and say: ok. What am I actually doing right now? What makes him I'm making and if your ear out of control this. This will just never happen. It will just never happen. You have to be humble enough to say: hey, there are some things that
Don't seem to be going very well right now, and I think the person that's in charge, and this probably indicates that I'm making some mistakes. What can I do better right back? It seems like so obvious and yet theirs countless stories and in this can happen on a large scale like at american apparel or can happen in Many scale like wind, someone's in a relationship with another human being They don't understand why the other person's frustrated and it must be that other person without look in the mirror gone. Maybe you act like an asshole. Sometimes I just dumb I saw this interview with sean payton. I'm a saints spend some sad that he left, but he was ass. Light what're, you gonna, do about Russell. Wilson ran this terrible season cute contract. In denver, terrible season and he's like when you ve got they do he's like what we're gonna break down. What happened last, and we're going to see the plays that went well. and then we can do more of those plays. No real
play that didn't go well. We can run fewer of those in your leg. that's so basic, but that is first up. That's getting, the outside of a problem, rightly instead it just like forcing it like that. Do what we're doing, but we'll try harder right. or we hope, will get luckier or will play you know this or that of the other? It's just like what stepped back and less down the felt. This is why teams breakdown film in this way in the military debrief. You look at what work and what didn't work Also, this is what coaches and consultants and team members and comrades and spouses this is. What they're like hey, you know this pattern here like every time. This and you do acts is that and then how does ex go not well? Well, then one we tried this. Instead, you know in the ability. It's very hard to see yourself from the outside by definition, and so you have to cultivate a process with its journaling like that's what market surveillance is doing in meditations or a therapist
two or what of advisers or of pay accountability, partner or partner culture. Whatever that allows you to go I'm getting in my own way here like a lot. How do I stop doing and then- and this is what dove didn't do you have to listen to the advice to have to actually do that stuff which nobody wants to do yet the idea of ruddy things out his is all of this is something I always tell people to do. Many that you got told when you were you know, sixteen years old and hey, do you want to go to a summer camp or do you want to stay, and you think someone goes all right down the list of pros and cons and You do is you you are detaching from the problem, even if only for eighteen inches away, but now you're. Looking at a piece of paper when you have to down your fault. It makes them more clear and it makes you see. Oh yeah looks like I should. Definitely you stay here and get a job someone you need money it's gonna be a better deal for me like make those decisions and detaching from them in writing them down. That's why even writing books for me, as I will.
Right down debris points for people. I'd read it now, I'd see. Oh yeah, I can see this is a pattern here. I can see how I need to explain this better cause, they're, not getting it. So writing things down? Is such a powerful tool because it de facto causes utilities had from the problem there's a reason that almost all successful and creative people throughout history had some kind of journal in practice right where they talk, about how their day went or how they want their data go or the ideas there working honour. The things are struggling with that that eighteen and that might be. That might as well be ten thousand feet. Beautiful gives you so much distance, and its also so much better to vomit that out on the page, rather than on other people, and once you are, stipulate ones, you write it down and in so many times I'm running my draw what that is In saying that logic does not true at all, or also Britain is up like all unnoticed, like I'm writing
tired. I am very regularly for that's a solvable problem right and you, I obviously knew I was tired, but just the active of just seeing your thoughts is That is the most basic philosophical practice that there is an that's. What that's literally what the stoics were doing. How did the egos enemy do really get really get if it was funny it was sort of a nice. So it comes out, It should be viewed a number one on the wall street journal list in somebody might which were made a mistake when they entered in the wrong category. They put it in philosophy. There is no rest for instead of business, which we asked them for that would enable a number one and so you know I opened the thing: expecting the number ones of age and told me the sails, and it's like saddam not number one. It's not fair hair there's a chapter in the. look about this idea that the effort has to be enough, like you control the effort, he don't control extra, no results, which is a
for a timeless stoic idea. It's also in the box that you have to refer to your own book. I was like fuck. You know that right because, like I knew I did a good job, I knew I sold the copies, which ultimately is what matters anyway, not this arbitrary list of where you rank against other people like. I know what the number is and also for the four cares about the first weekly? Tell me: is it still, you know there's a drake lyrical. tell me who you check in a decade. For now the book is still selling right. Like that's what matters. It doesn't matter what you do in the first week, but but it again Michael, so cool about stoicism about philosophy is that it is for those people. it's where you're, like someone made a mistake, it costs me something, but did it cost something. Do I actually care about this, then? What is it actually mean to me and then how do I process these emotions that giving people think stores is like having no motions. No stoicism is having the framework understanding of
really is important what you really believe and it allows you to process those emotions. So instead of sending off the angry email, or you know like putting my foot through the wall, I'm like oh yeah, is a chance. Does the chance to practise what I was talking about which I already knew, and I already have practice, but it's more practice. I had my book despite because freedom was coming out in two thousand seventeen in october mid october of two thousand seven, and so I had gotten the pre copies. Like backup, I at my house, my big box of em and I had the bay, media toward thing all scheduled. my friends have died or not amber thirtieth, two thousand seventeen and so I cancelled everything, but but then like I was destroyed, cause my friend died and I
I remember. I had this book that I had written and I have a section in the book about death, I literally had to walk over to my own book and read that section. Two too, remind myself of how, you get through this again and again, that's like we talk about writing stuff down to. to distance yourself from it, but also lie what you're saying you know, you're pissed, that you didn't get on the list. The way you should have and like of course you go back and like read the section on that and it's it's the same thing. Sometimes you've got to your. You got to interrupt that emotional cycle! That's going on and say: hey! Here's looking from a distance years, what's going on in That's why having books like these are, it is important to be able to refer back to him Otherwise, you can get caught in these loops that are not healthy, yeah. I think first
In writing. This is like a form of accountability, publishing as a form of accountability killing. I said this and I saw the two people. So if someone this may not doing it. That's that's! Not a good looks forces. You looking like this sort of thing. but then also when you're writing. In I mean it's not it is you, but it's also you channel in something big, and more timeless than you like. You didn't invented you. covered it, and now you're sharing or you uncovered it or rediscovered right, and so like the process, of writing it and I think, almost as I've really it just one of the interesting things as I've gone back and read more the obscure stokes, like there's a metaphor in in meditations remarks, really talks about being a rest Nobody talks about being a box. European creation is like the old form of a man and then I realized oh, no she's cribbing from an earlier stoic. Why did he didn't invent?
that this exact paragraph basically appear somewhere else and oh, he was reminding himself of the key was that the act of writing it down freezing, putting it in his own language was away of kind. Putting it in his own muscle memory, and so Writing to me is not this generative them. It's more of dislike. Repetitive met it. haitian. Do you enlightenment? writing the daily stood is its reps. Guess it's wraps the two reps on the squat rack, yeah and you're, going to get a little bit stronger and they're going to get a little bit more embedded in ingrained in your head, yeah. It doesn't make it easy to apply them, but it makes it easier to remember next. Up. The daily stoic three hundred and sixty six meditation, on wisdom, perseverance and the art of living
section this. Some of us are stressed. Others are overworked. Perhaps, struggling with new responsibilities of parenthood or chaos of a new venture, or are you already successful grappling with the duties of power or influence wrestling with addiction employee, love or moving from one flawed relationship to another hour, approaching your golden years or Enjoying the spoils of youth busy and active or board out of your mind whenever it is, what you're going through. There is wisdom from the stoics that can help. In fact, in many cases they have addressed it explicitly in terms that fuel shockingly modern, that's we're going to focus on in this book fast boredom but organised along the lines of the three disciplines, perception action and will and then further divided into important themes within those disciplines. You'll find
each month, will stress a particular trade and each day offer a new way to think or act the area. Of great interest to the stoics. All make an appearance here, virtue more your motion. Self awareness, fortitude right action, problem, solving acceptance, mental clarity, pragmatists unbiased, fought and duty the this hands on approach to philosophy is to help you live a better life. It is our hope that there is not a word in this book that you can't that can't or shouldn't to paraphrase the neck seneca be turned into works, so this one, perception, action and we'll talk with you. Those things is also industry sure of the obstacles which, basically, like you, control how you look about how you you can try? You look at a problem right what you think and feel about the problem, control, the action that you take them,
problem, and then you control the sort of willpower, determination, endurance that you bring to bear on the problem, marcus, real imitations. These sums, America's objective judgment now, at this very moment, unselfish action now at this very moment, and it is, will acceptance now at this very that is all that you need, and that is sort of the encapsulation of stoicism. The idea that bike what is it? I'm not going to be rattled by it? I'm not going to exaggerate them and see it for what it is do what I gotta do and then I'm gonna eminent persists through ray, I'm gonna like an indirect and survive that that is the sort of That is how you make the obstacle is the way that is how you apply stoicism in big situations and small ones. Just It's some live events, and it's interesting. How much of this, One of the things I was talking about as the the the mt of control of your choice,
of how you're gonna view things right have what your perception of these things are going to be when something bad happened. When something good happens, or you can actually perceive it and then what actions you gonna take about it. It's off. Right right along the life of this, which is which is good, pretty strange and then spock right here, as you are right in this it's kind of everything that we just talked about right. This is like, oh every day, we're going to remind yourself. You have a journal that goes along with which I don't have a copy of it, but there's a journal that goes along with where you can say. Oh here's. What I did today you've said, up in a way that its evergreen, there's no days so he doesn't have to be Monday january. First, a kind thursday january first near still, gonna go and you can have keep growing through this book forever. That's been the great powers People are eight years into it and so all sign people's copies and inside libya. it's my favorite book and it's like I can tell it's not, and then you meet someone you're like oh, you put some fucking miles on and that's like the coolest, that's the coolest.
When they got that four different or five different colored highlighted that have been used in different tags on different colored tapes. They hang out cause that's what my copy of meditations looks like you know, it's all tat back together. In almost every page, almost everyone is marked, as at some point. That line spoke to me not the first time that the thirtieth time, but the hundred hundredth did you know and the stoics out about this there. They say that we never step industry, river twice and what's cool about re reading books is that you're different it's the same. a different, and so that's what it's best to be an ivy The other tricky thing is like when you when you hear about a tradition, are a way of thinking like where do you start, and I think, when this just the dearest stoke, which is not it wasn't mike the ad hoc. Actually, my agent, who did the translation steve, is the one that suggested like oh yeah, start with all of its like the greatest
the greatest hits album. You know it. These are the best ideas from the stokes is, I call my favorite quotes and then I just riff on them, but I I've found that that that can be hard people go seneca marks really is epictetus, which george I start with, and it's like You know so much more about you before I can. You know before. I can now tell you and this is like kind of a survey course of the stoics. and a day we reminder of what you're doing and that in the same river because is the continuation of that quotas. No like us there. The same revenue is not the same man right by a continuation of its from heraclitus, great poet,. I've found that, like out I'll talk to accompany and I'll talk about, say the for loss of combat leadership, and- Two years later, I'll go back and talk to the same company and some guy I'll come up like while really like the new like than the new scheme.
that you ve put on these things and I'm like a man I've been saying the same thing for the past fifteen years. I also applause. I hate your seeing it differently now your memory. Last time, I you had a team of four and I got forty two and you were We're not publicly traded company and now you're publicly traded, so you got it's totally different years different river, this man yeah there's another line like when the student is ready. The teacher appears- and it's like it was all in the book, but it just it wasn't unlocked freedom. You didn't stand all that way. Into it until you or you understood it on a surface level? Now you understand it to mean something totally different and that's that's to me. What like great timeless amazing work. Is they even movies. You watch movies. Are you read books in your like first there was a hero. Now, there's a villain now there's a hero. Again, you know the civil war is like that for me, the more he studied with civil worried. You go
You started, everyone has an arc you now and it that's what moral complexion in reality is all that mean. Example. From the civil war will grant, fascinating does he is flawed, brilliant laud brilliant should it become, should have been president in it? Was a present a bad precedent? Is it impossible that because the loss caused mythology you know, is Is robert e Lee this sort of tragic figures? The monstrous villain right were that, my my my thing on the civil war is like you know you learn as a cater like it was all about slavery. Right then. You study the civil war like his weight, more complicated than just being about slavery. then you really studied a civil war and I like it hundred percent about slavery, like you, don't mean it becomes. I think we need study things. You study people, it's very simple and it gets complicated. And then wisdom is the ability for that complication too and become a kind of simple?
the city again, you know what I mean and so I mean that's what everyone pick up a book about the civil war I'm like I do not need to read and others book about the civil war. I have so many they don't know about. I should read about something new and then I just something totally new out of it. I'm like have you been battlefields doing of them. What's your favorite gettysburg nome and I haven't been to a billion of em, but I've been gettysburg seven times. So we do. We do like a battlefield tore at gettysburg and it's it's just awesome. It just awesome cm vicksburg guy, here having vicksburg is more, We ve talked about going to export vicksburg as well, and the upcoming you could certainly argue that its important for sure I mean this house should assist- should have surrendered the day after vicksburg there's done their stun
yeah. It's such a it's such a crazy war. In one of the things that's interesting about, it is further sumter, some sort of statistic you can get, but The soldiers were really really literate in. They were really good writers, yes and he read what the writing about the civil war and there like private soldiers on the front line and their super articulate it just awesome to read, and you have all these accounts of all these people that road all these letter, homes or or cat. he's journals and you can get a really cool. Ground, truth to what they were thinking of other feeling so fascinating. Then you re like grants, memoirs and your leg. This is like one of the greatest books ever written? And it's just this? How do we write this I like the best, but it's why two, if the gettysburg battlefield that just the just the hot water, explained people that before us like hey here's, how they set it up.
The one side of the battlefield you ve got generally on a horse standing, looking across the battlefield from where his troops were reigned? In Other side of the battlefield you ve got general meet on a horse and he's looking were hit from where his troops were read. Like you can't it's almost who good it's like the perfect, it's the pie. Fact, memorial battlefield their showing you how this thing went down. Yeah you You wonder why? I love vicksburg vicksburg is the perfect. Obstacle is the way story, so they set lincoln center grant because grant's like the only guy in the west with momentum. And they send grant also sends mcclarnon he's he sends his we spent at the same time is political replacement grants. Gonna failure. Take over so grand goes. Vicksburg now is like this nothing But it's them! It's the only stronghold left on the river. The most import city in america controls the navigation in the most important river in the country country's splits in an hats,
it's this citadel on the bluffs there of mississippi him so grandsire more attack, doesnt work, he's. Ok, we'll go above it doesnt work he's like me. Did a canal, we'll just move the river doesn't work, please try and everything right and then he finally has this idea. Furs of my other favorite is and get their sherman technically out, ranks grant. And our future, isn't that a in charge like surrenders superiority in this moment, I'll do whatever you and and sherman, gets like the worst jockey, running a faint he. He gets like the least sexy job, the whole thing, but anyways grant and a porter and fair. They, they run the gunboats and they ate paid. They skip vicksburg altogether. right this. I think that once you do, you cannot undo, so they run the gunboats they make it and they cross. Three hundred miles south animals also note that at heart
I'm so easy like the perfectly nancy he crosses and then grandpa's now we're talking here, boots on the ground on the right side of the enemy you now and then it's a you think, ok he's! Obviously his is crossed the river and now he's gonna head up to vicksburg instead is forget about extremely has to jackson and a bit who takes jackson burned to the ground, which is what we applying the citadel in vicksburg. then, in a month later, now he's in this. Isn't this thing for a year now we had backwards, and now suddenly all the advantages of being a fortress on a bluff, the mississippi river dissident now they are trapped. In said, said, city grey and he lay siege. He doesn't give in takes like two months. He finally surrender they surrender on the fourth of July thinking that he'll be merciful, which of course he is not. and then vicksburg does not celebrate the fourth of July till nineteenth.
woody five in protest in this but basis All the lessons that great in german you or learn there or how they win. The war sherman cuttings supply lines being on the right side of the river taking the war to the enemy sherman's march is learned there at hard times and for grant he was like I've got more men, I've got what time, got more money he's like? If I just don't quit we win and so in grand goes east and takes over the army of the potomac. It is from. Vicksburg, so not only is. Does it take the advantages of the enemy and flip them on its head, but also in crying all these different things. He acted cause? It wasn't easy because it didn't go is way the first time he learns everything that he then uses to win this avoid the battle the wilderness, the siege of when petersburg, all that is from vicksburg the witch the way you can never figure out, if you're, not humble, yes, because you just stop,
the same where interesting we my last planet to Iraq, we're in the city of remedy, and we are working very closely with the with the army. with the one one eighty and they had a great colonel who became a general and we are doing big operation and so fixed was the first joint. What we call author, a joint operation between the army, the navy yak as the navy's in the river rival answer. So so we did this big operation and look down a big chunk of the city and we called if he named the operation vicksburg has, As you know, army navy working together is only forty seals out there that we're workin from a navy side, but you know, we're we are doing our best to have an impact in it. He was appreciated. That's renamed vicksburg. I love that because it is this remarkable story of collaboration and evil business in that porter farragut and, in german, all work together,
favorite momentum. Actually just writing about this. Now is unknown series, on the four virtues and dumb friend my justice, which is an illegal this is like how do you can afford yourself as a person own grant comes up with this plan? to run the gunboats into other stuff. Germans, like is a terrible idea, is will not work. Do not do it grants. I can't take this I hear you, but here's wiping I'm right insurance. I think you're wrong. He goes by It was like, I think, you're so on a minimum memorialize it nonetheless, I have to write he's so worked up about what a terrible mistake, if he thinks he's, maybe he's put it in writing to put in writing, sends its grant course. It works out, German want one sermons overruled please. Does everything disposed to found a complaint and then, after its success in grants like giving Sherman oldest credit there Where's their and our sherman walks up. It is like it needs on the record that I oppose this right. At least he's like. I thought it was about india, all the credit goes to this guy, and then
when grants writing his memoirs sherman goes send them another letter- and he says I am sure you have forgotten about this- and I know that you deleted the like. I know you ripped up the way, so I'm in closing another copy. So the record, can you know he doesn't even want in this moment he does what credit unreservedly anyway. the record a show a k. I didn't do right behind you. You can see how easily leader can only focus on how the results meant that it worked out and not the fact that they had like you want. I think you not only wanted to be honest, but I think he was also going hey. This was an instance where I got it super wrong, and I want to make sure that that's what stays with me and what other future people learn is dead. You know, I didn't get it right. I'm not a genius. I don't have the midas if I thought it was wrong. I thought I was wrong, I was proven la la that's.
That's a great borne out. I talk about that. Would we just overtime anytime, I'm wrong, I'm super stoked because it gives us the opportunity to add at every them wrong and be humble and say: look here, you have a better idea than me. Let's use your idea, I love being wrong its awesome. I also always say that I really have to admit that I am wrong and the reason I really have to admit that iran is cause. I don't run around saying I'm right about something guess I sit there and say well, I think we should use this marketing plan because I I think I'm right. No, I say: well, I'm not really sure that could work how about this idea so If you dont, pay yourself no corner by screaming genuine that you're right or creating memorandums where you say I've to go on record by saying that this is wrong because it we're done to take, I guess back in the day you might have been china, maybe the document that fact just so if it go wrong. You can say a dude. I pointed out to that's a really weird thing at gettysburg to, and you had long story and those are I commend it to where he say. Listen, I've, I've, commanded score
and bore tunes and companies in battalions brigades and in I estimation no, the arm, ever assembled could take this position and lisa coordinate anyway and that's probably should a documented that a little bit better than you did ya know it it's so fascinating. I treated is registered to suit their historic recently where like didn't, they had they put video together had some one work on it and I was like arable, it's not going to work. You know I always have all the reason. I don't like it and then we're like. No trust me on this and they put it out did like a million years ago, our first it and it's a good reminder to in hollywood. There's this Nobody knows anything about. What's gonna work, it's all gas and the set you start to be right couple times in a row. Watch out daddy fact right, like with trust me, I'm the publisher almost cancel the book over the cover. I knew it was the right covered either as bad as cover here. Yeah yeah, I did I didn't like it
things into my publisher, told me he said you know what I mean. This is extremely cops extreme she was coming out. We don't know anything about like we weren't you going into this life, and I were just knucklehead that were wrote a book and well. How do you think it's going to do and then our polish remark was like nobody knows, and nobody knows nobody knows how good a bark book is gonna. Do he had some example, some book that open and free was on her show at o, prevent winfried peak of her show saying that this is an incredible, but by the spoken like they sold three thousand copies mountains. That done so, not only public knows yes, that's why the viral thing creating vital thing which is interesting as it utah. By creating bioethics and you're able to pull it off sometimes, but even the gray ryan. All day, two weeks ago we say: hey this video stupid, don't put it out, viral video a million years when no one, so they don't like the cover- and I I I stuck my guns and it worked out and then on a later book. I was
convinced that cover should be a certain way? The subtitle should be a certain way and it didn't work? Was it didn't like fail, but just didn't it didn't work and in the paper back we fixed at all, and so it's it's like I could, I guess, go to my grave convinced. I was right and blame some other factor, but at the end of the day, gotta, go no you're, not gonna, be read a hundred percent like statistically You're gonna be wrong like a lot, and so how was the one of these I look forward to win its objectively and irrefutable in irrefutable that I was wrong. I got okay. This is this is like eliminating want this. Is it If it was never going this way than I am clearly in the throes of eager cause, it it stiffly happen. I'm just not seeing it do you want to seize on the times real? I care. I think I got this wrong. I made the bad call. Clearly it's not true, because you don't get clarity that often no no you don't so then we get into speaking of sound
the perennial cellar, the art of making and marketing work that lasts. So this was like us back. Yellow war brought this about I just got lots of people, would ask me for advice on books. Cause I'd worked on so many and then the publishers like do wanted this book marketing book, and I was kicking it around, and then I was like how I should care about marketing books. I care about making stuff tat lasts. Like it's funny rate, your measured in the first week of yourselves. We put something out how many have yourself. So if you saw a ten thousand copies, let's say you make her, but if you sell thousand copies a week for a year. You sold a lot more copies, but you will not appear in any vessel owners and people always measures themselves on the wrong. The wrong things right, it's funny the publishing industry, all of the money and. Of the successes on things that are old right, but they call perennial titles with a backlash.
and yet all the energy and all the focus and all the media coverage is on. What's coming out like this tuesday and so I am interested in the stuff. Alas, anatomy How do you make it harry market? It? Would you learn from the stuff that has then, what we? So you write this book or how does a deal? I guess this is a niche market that has too many people that are like yo. I'm writing a book. I want to see how I do this. I mean it's it's more about how you make anything that sort of lessons from sort of timeless work. If I was doing it again, I'd probably do it differently. I think I might do it differently at some point, might be ideas in a really good salt. I made it so well enough at any other be very excited to have that. Or of sales how'd. You made the new york times best seller list. Yet at this point No, it's funny. No, no. I thought I'd sold Well into the millions of copies before I had been your times us for the first time, which was a surreal strangest made. obstacles away came out. It had to do
Austria, journalists, and then I never hit the new york times list and I didn't hit the new times for the time until I debuted viewed a number one with my like ninth, but so These things don't mean anything, but that is what people care about. You know how much companies raised right. I out like who selling, but they don't care like is still going to be around, is profitable rate. Is it proper Is it still going to be around ten years from now? Two years from now eighteen months from now right. Look, so everyone chooses what's popular now, but they don't think about is this likely to You know what I regret that for marketing. I knew this is only gonna have a short in a relic it- was your life I think so many people write things and they they think it's a lot and then it's just when you talk never had a shock. Never had a shot, and so I think when you, when you if you're going to write a book you ve been making you to view goes up right now. Can it can be of the moment refrigerator?
the time to do something like start accompanied her book, ever it's gotta, it's gotta have the potential to have lakes. In writing. A book the agenda somewhere talkin about before hit record. Writing a book is hard to do it. If you writing, yourself if you're gonna pay, someone erratic call that, whatever you know your weak, but If, if you're going to, if you're, going to actually write the book yourself, it's going to be it's hard to do that. It's time it's editing a book is, the hard to do like the whole thing is hard to do, takes a whole bunch of time and What's really crazy is like writing a book. You can write a you, can write a fantastic incredible book and also you no fourteen hundred copies nuts that dunstan. And you can write like another book that happens to get in some people's and always all of like crazy. You can't, some of your books that have like not done very well. according to the market out of the gate and yet now they're selling
There's a thousand copies overtime, so it's a war, hoping to get into it, now a r, not stable thing to get into now. Like eve, if you're out there thinking? Well, I'm going to become an author and tell a bunch of books that that's a rough, it's a rough game to get into one of the funny things. Is since the books have worked in a people that all right he's right? Let's doses, intimate money, and I was like couldn't think of a worse thing to do to make money like that's, because I remember the conversations with my polish women as I don't want to write about doses of narrow, like what's the least amount of money. We can offer this person and it was a not large amount of money. And they only me later that they were just hoping tat would like get it my system, but then, when something works, obviously it's it seems like. Obviously it was your plan all along The reality is books are a terrible way to make money right and they take an incredible amount of time and energy in it. They work for you
And so like when I, when I might have to be born in you, I think I'm running a thinking about writing a book of good, don't write like you you cannot do it dont? Do it right like we write a book. If you can't not, do it right, cried good adverse you like it to be something that you would be happy with. If its old, seven copies right, yeah, I well for either the same thing happen when extreme came out. I immediately We can write a kids book and though I wish the record of the conversation with my with my editor and guys. A friend of mine he's a great deal, but you know he's like hey, likely he's trying to fifteen different ways to taught me how to do ass, a business like crazy. That's that You're just gonna get put in this pigeon hole and then that's that an we don't want to hear anything else from you, the other thing This reminds me of this more advice from ten ferris when, don writing a book. Your fifty percent there, yes, like one done with them,
I of writing a book, You now have percent more to do that, just as hard as the first fifty percent that you just did when you thought you're done, I've decided if he votes, you finished running a marathon and then you know you come through the gate and you're like oh and you're staggering. Across the finish line, you had this last burst of adrenaline that got you through it. I'm done they grab you. They put you through the shoot him. Their taken. You like the tent reader, relax. They put that metal, get on your own ever or them stan and there actually just taking you to the starting line of the second marathon that you have to start right now you and it's it's a as fulfilling marathon. lesson. Your control the It's also more embarrassing and awkward at all. The things that you do wanna due to begin with, but if you do it. No one else is going to do it for you and what does it say about? I can people, I go. I don't I don't do that,
marketing sales stuff, I'm just like a writer, a creative, I'm, an inventor. You know whatever I'm jurists, it's what you are saying. Is it your shit, socks and you? I believe in it enough to work I go on podcast and talk about it with you. No, it well enough to confidently cell or marketing and so dead it? to be a huge. the equation Why did you do it like? Why did you not? Why did you do it, because I'm getting their fight down on paper, there's something valuable matt, but why did you leave over every sentence in the packaging and, like you did all that, because it's for people And now now that the fear of them essentially not liking it and the potential audience being cut. It now you're trying to back out of it going. What's that That was never important to me. I dont care, and so it is too. What you have to be pure and do it for only the right reasons and then you decide to put it out. You have to become market
and a hustler and you have to work just as creatively in committee. The to selling it to people, and it's all on fuckin hard, hardside the obstacles away, so millions of jobs, but the first week its old thirty one hundred copies. Maybe you know now what that was all that seemed like a lot in retrospect, as you know, not even a fraction of a percent, and so everything that succeeds comes to dwarf what it did at the beginning. Hopefully, and that's cause. You didn't quit on it new kept pounding the payment doing work there speaking of why did you do It- Next you roll into a conspiracy peer deal, whole cohen. worker and the anatomy of intrigue yeah, so if this is out of left field book, you are wrong subtitled and I forget what the new subtitles are. No, no I'm saying like that was the subtitle I was like this is the subtitle and we fought and was like fuck much about it, and now it's pets said
ex power, billionaires. Added to crush a media empire sounded it's like actually sounds compelling the red in retrospect, very I totally and the color of their body to because I bought into that like I was. I do this. It's like you know. goals. No, I could get a sandwich here. Pickles you sauce and no fried fish you're like whoa. What is this? I want to try it so when I see Peter thiel, hulk, hogan and gawker, I'm like whoa, what's going on here, and I kind of vaguely remembered the whole story thing, but well that's what I thought and and you're, probably like a nerd like me, so you're like injury, you're, going to be a spy, but that now with the market at all it's my least selling, but the one I am most proud of, because it was the hardest to do and it was the most outside my comfort zone. But basically I happened. to know Peter tail a little bit and I knew nick denton, who is the creator, this company cocker in this
two days ago you were, you knew them. Both yad met them both before I knew nick from my american apparel. This and I've been to a party at peters house many years, so I knew them both in these two guys get locked in this ten year campaign to destroy each other and and somehow liquor busily the book starts with them. I one one I I had like- lunch at one of their house houses in my dinner like, I was in both houses on the same day and I know that yeah and they were to, and says I gotta talk cause it's an insane story. There are people who don't know basically to them, in seven, this tat website called gawker, outspeed or till his gay, which you, was but use private about it and then he decides to destroy them for this, but what they did was in a legal system,
Ten years plotting and secret waiting for them to fuck up and then two thousand and eleven or twelve day rule stolen sex tape of hope whole cargan having sex with his best friends, wife bubbles, loves finder. Flora, dj, that's the name with another: do it it just like weirder, we're and soviet. They run the stones, exit and peter to your hires illegal team. Who secretly hopefully never knows a peters, a part of it to secretly fun a hundred million dollar lawsuit which they ultimately win and bankrupt, gawker, and then peter in the bidding in the auction. Like almost gets the assets of the company in the end of it. So is this where he almost gets the assets or he destroys, it can be. Somebody else ends up buying it, like the judge, wouldn't sell it to him, but it's almost a gino, his polio optimum, so that in in roman combat the ultimate victory for a general to get only happen like three times
you defeat the other general on the field of battle. The hand and then you strip their armour from them. and so he is close to that as you could possibly get like a business world. and it suits his insane story, which I used as a way of just talking about strategy. Was your book a post mortem or were you in it as it was happening? This is all postmortem, but I I had like I'd read twenty thousand page of legal documents and I intervene other people, including hocker, in who shut up shut A t shirt a whole can t shirt which in a sense it was. It was insane story which I just really wanted to tell, and I think I did. I think I did a really good job. I think it's really interesting. I know there's a way I could have done differently with some more copies, but that wasn't what the story tat. I wanted to tell: how could you something I gotta make peter till the villain. Instead, I saw him as like the
fascinating and our hero of the story. Farming sense like? Even if you don't agree with what he did, I was fascinated with how he did it. It's kind of cool right, yeah yeah, I'm like there's something back, even if it's bad, it's still bad ass, and so I want to You tell that story which ended up being really. I was fascinated by How could I met him at the? U s? What are these huge yeah when his is a massive dude, his life is very sad. His was very sad and this moment but some of them are now give assent No, I don't know what's happening at the moment that this happens. You know his life is, I mean he's like his fallen apart. His wife is left. Him is one of his kids about to go to jail. Caressingly rail, for I killed a guy in a car accident justly. All the things that famine success can do to a person happens to him and then this most private What is left on the internet- and then yeah. He wins this when ends up winning
five years later, when this insane lawsuits and secretly funded. and I m also just like you- know, lego revenge- is it is best served cold, but nobody can do it and nobody can wait, you know, and so on, peter deals in the air, the patience and the money? value in need of it. His just I just I heard about about it. He and he knew that you were writing the book and it was coming out yeah he he he talked to me. So he He gave me all that, so even he hired this kid and this kid pretended to be. fun this kid pretended to have a wealthy benefactor whose funding lawsuits, but that we his intermediaries between huggins legal team. Until so nobody knew teal tools. Involvement was revealed like three weeks after the verdict, so he pulled off complete and total secrecy.
That's freaking logic. Why did you? What did you covering a story that, like surprised, even you? Ah, what was over some women just I was when the break that this dude was there that there this this character, media and the internet. The deep throat, if you like, the guy, the secret identity, thou hast thou, is pretty nuts theirs this whole f b. I sting that happened. That was pretty crazy. Here's a funny! So why does this all happen? Why is so basically bubba likes to watch his wife? they re by other duties as what he gets off so he's secretly filming right, he secretly films or code and having sex with his wife, which is weak on sanctions, but the reason it gets out is that
a rival dj in florida, who wants bothers spot on the radio breaks into above his office in rummages tourists, ask and finds the tape and he's the one that leaks the tape. So this whole thing is hawk ash between these insane personalities happens because one weird florida, dj ones humiliate another florida dj and it's just the weirdest is your story that maybe you better now you felt like its unreal, become brothers. Couldn't come up with this? Maybe it could, but I dunno yeah I mean it's just like it was. The whole thing was, you know, absurd to sell whole thing from start to finish. It's completely absurd. So Did you get? Did you Publisher wish bind this thing a little bit. They gave me like much less than my normally very wet, but I'm ok, fine go endured, yeah it's been in, like movie turn around her. Ever since I wrote it, but.
Documentary style real, like I come there after the hunger games, optioned it and then the guy that wrote the big short he wrote a script. So it's it's been. You know like multiple, crazy actors to each of the rules and that it never happens. Woody Told me back. I don't know, I don't care, how I don't get housework at offer, its exact, I don't know, there's a lot of meetings are foam I was never kissed. It sounds very good wild is it was his egg. Then you kind of back to your you back your routes on the next one right, stillness is the key he commented on reading this thing right now, some little on this one. In our own wives, we face a seemingly equal number of problems under pulled in countless directions by competing priorities and beliefs in the
We have everything we hope to accomplish personally and professionally sit obstacles and enemies more luther king Jr observed that there was a violent civil war, reach within each and every person between our good in bad impulses between our ambitions and our principles between what can be and how hard it is to actually get there. Those battles. In now war, stillness is the river and the railroad junction through It's so much depends the key to thinking clearly- to see the whole chessboard to making tough decisions, managing our emotions to identify the right goals to handle, high pressure situations to maintaining relationships, to building good habits, to being productive to physical excellence, to feeling fulfilled to capturing moments of laughter and joy. Still,
is the key to just about everything, to being a better parent, better artist, a better investor better. athlete a better scientist. A better in being to unlocking all that we are capable of in this life. As well as hard. Let go on it's funny. I forgot, but actually tell the story of vicksburg in the introduction of that book. Lincoln calls, all the generals in everyone from the war department has his big mac united. it's is million plans for how to win this of war. The attic and a kind of plan into this is all these different it and he is, he pointed vicksburg this. Vicksburg is the key he knew I can the earliest days of the civil war. That was city that mattered and the bill serve tune, everything out and law on what is this strategic objective that matters more than anything else is the main
The main thing like how do you quiet the noise, internal external, avoid the distraction, avoid the short term for the technical is to go to lick the essence of what matters that's like them. their skill of all and that's the one that leaders have to have an athletes have to have like The game online you shouldn't free, throws everyone screaming at you. Can you do what you ve done a thousand times, but now actually counts not get in your own. Had about it. That's that's everything What other word could you use besides stillness? What like about stillness? Is it's one of those words as I could? You cannot exactly define it, but you know exactly what it means and that scene, to be shared across all the traditions like the stoics. Had this word apathy, fair epicurean said this word iraq's here. But basically, just means like a freedom from disturbance. Right, like the
even if you are moving, you are still right, And then buddhism they talk about you. Do you have a cup of butter? water, you let it sit still. It becomes clear. so the idea you know is they're, in almost all the spiritual and religious traditions of some idea of peace and tranquillity and calmness? And if you get there, you know that where that's? What unlocks? Whatever is that you need to do whether it's like being present your kids or at some high stress, high stakes scenario or your life is on the line? If you're, everywhere, you know. How did you get in the moment tat your in. Do what you need to do that to me. That's what stones, What are your protocols for finding that? I mean on a day to day basis, which is weirdly both the easier in the hardest. When you need to do it to me, it's all about routine and structure, like what do you do when you get up. What do you do? First, read second,
do you not do so. I'm a big I'm like a big routine guy, we have at the same time. Don't you the phone, my feeling is that only the phone for the first thirty minutes, one arm awake, I try to table, he's outside we on a long walk if I'm buying some of our work out by myself, but I disagree physical? Usually, journaling. I don't do breakfast and then I take them to school or whatever I did my might get em and situate for the day thing and then then I write and then so. Like ten or eleven like everything else, rest. The days is bonus. For me have anything I'm worried about you regrets like I've. If I cried that morning, Not only am I going to carry that stillness with me to whatever I have to do for the rest of the day, but it's also kind of irrelevant, because I already want that.
I got a question I got, I think actually have been. I have an idea for your next burka. It's the other path, that ryan holiday took at american apparel. Ok, we're like whatever you know whatever was going on there? You just got caught up in it when we were explaining that morning, routine. I'm like this is amazing that you made it to this situation, where you're waking up at the same time, you're journaling you're hanging out with your kids you're working out you're, carrying on with a nice pleasant life in texas. I'm like thinking back to when you were nineteen years old, you're working at american apparel, there's mayhem going on there there's models and, and just drugs in mayhem and money and power and europe The right at the seat of the emperor and you're there to receive some that it's like This is amazing that you made it to this spot where, You can get caught up in all that
I write about this a little bit in the concluding afterward of kurdish conquers. Yet have I been in retrospect clearly caught up in some? Then coal is too strong a word, but you you get in situations that have an energy and a reason that you can't get out of hand. That's that's what screws at their moral compass like you get it you can get. Competing in a game and you It's so walked into the competition of it or the winning of it that you don't think about whether its right game or not, and I think that was a good. I give my twenties a half an hour. That scene for sure I mean there's more. Where I remember I was I remember, I was asked to do something, that I didn't want to do, and so I did do it. I said I wasn't gonna do it, but I should have get up more about it. and I was like well, why didn't I and I was like why didn't want to get fired and then it was like. Well, I did want to get fired and one to be a writer, some, trying to not lose a job that I do want to lose.
But also lake, any job that you will get fired for doing. What is obviously the right thing is now a job that you should want right, and so you know, I think it was look back in time and as one very young too. To figure out why I, but I was also just so overwhelmed and busy they didn't. I couldn't get The outside of the time I couldn't get the outside of it and go this is insane. This is not healthy. It is also not what do you want to do with your life? gotta get out, but we all however, we have a reasons we have our reasons and those reasons what I found as they dont age, well reasons net the reason that you didn't do the brave or the right or the obvious thing like it does it doesn't h wealth Is it a good assessment to say that you are kind of like that? It kid the kid gone places were twenty years old. Were you getting, written about in magazines and stuff, like this year,
and I was also just doing stuff that, like no one of my family had ever done, I didn't even know you could do you know I mean I m, running marketing, free public, retreating, written crazy, what I could barely job like a fifty three year old seasons like person that Bin The ringer and you're freaking twenty years old he was, it was insane, was totally and we'll be referred to the money to? No, not really that was sort of his tendency will give you the keys to the kingdom, but really pay. You, I mean I was actually getting paid, but I wasn't I wasn't. I wasn't making, did you or did you buy a house no way? No. I bought my first house in Austin after I after I left, however, care gas apartment or whatever he. It was pretty as a good life is crazy and and you man, and this time I was with I what we re married after, but basically here and there United had small open issues, the enemy with it, but basically like for my wife, is like fuck this I'm out and I
I realized I hadn't written to book. I was like I have. My dream, like all I wanted to do was be a writer and I'm strong myself I'm. compromising myself. compromising my relationship to do to go to a staff meeting that a company that as a former owner is literally trying to destroy. This is insane agenda. this isn't said you. mentioned, moral compass, the right Where was where did you developed that? Where did that come from? Was it from the stoics? Was it from your mom and dad like some Things like you, put a normal twenty year old, freakin kid in this position and that their going off the rails, like it there's there's no turning back like it's gonna get crazy and it's gonna get real crazy and there are probably not gonna come back yeah you get out of it. I should have spent off the planet It was too much temptation to much access to dysfunctional
I don't really know I mean I think I just haven't you credit the stoics there there I stopped the slide at a certain point. I don't want to make it sound like I was some choir boy or something do you know what I mean cause I was due. I mean I've read about shit that I did. I shouldn't have done, but I still virtues, are courage, discipline, justice and wisdom, and I think it is very easy to think of stoicism messes productivity system. which I had this personal resiliency system, which is what I think I was most excited about. Particular when I was young. It's like this make We better. This makes me faster. This makes me stronger, but it's like it's not supposed to make you a better social, path. You know like that justice is done important of the virtues, because what is the courage for re in What are you doing it for a courage in pursuit of it, a cause of the cause is, is is empty and hollow now, I know I which one of your books you say this, but you basically
that there's no eureka moment yeah. was there anything closer eureka moment where you like you, like across the room- and you saw something in here just like what am I doing here there was there was some you know it's funny. I read this book while I was there's this book called the harder they fall by this guy named budd schulberg, who wrote on utter front and dumb great screenwriter inch guy, and it's it's about this corrupt boxing promoter who works with them. it's like a publicist, and so I'm reading this and you know as a section- and there is like I deluded myself- he says that I could deal in filth and not become the thing I touched, and I I thought you know. I won't stop, and I wrote this like little. I say to myself with this: you are ever wrote this all down the book and I remember that as like a pivotal moment, you know where I, where I really While I was heading down the rather needed to make changes in winter
and that's why it's really important new sheer people stories that you fact check them a little bit right because its Ever it's clean an immediate as you want it to be. So I member that being part of what you know leads to my departure? So, a couple of years ago I was thinking about this. I told the story something or I'm going to look when I bought that books I bought on amazon. I pull up when I bought it in two thousand and nine. Two thousand I left. Five years later, I stay for five warrior so no win something and then have been on re like knowing what your men to do and acting on it in its continual tat. You can knowing your heart. We are supposed to do or not supposed to do, but working up the courage to do it is especially when there's money on the line or status on the line or just inertia the status quo on. Why so it took me out. It took me a long time to realise that them
it's all about the game to the game that you're playing it seems like. The marketing game must have been fun too, in a fun kind of way, like an immediate gratification kind of way. In a like hey, we pulled this off kind of way and the look look. What we did there seems that would be a a fun kind, thing to do as well, yet to pull up a noose. but our minds, Hugh people talking about something you wheeled into reality, that, like the serve puppet ass, sternness of it, it is very exciting, very excited just just anything that you're good at is exciting. You just have to go just cause you're good at it doesn't mean it's a good thing to spend your life on. In fact, it might not be threatened if you can get wrapped up in that short term. Gratification, I'm sure that's gotta, be that's. Gotta feel good. scary, to walk away and do other stuff, but because I dropped out of college, to go like hey? I am going to walk away from this. I was ready to quit like I was like hey, I quit basically and they were like. Let's keep you on, but I was
you quit to go right at first book, and so that seemed that's him. equally crazy to people at that time. To a twenty four I could have laughed and gotten a job at any other time, I got a gun, got a job to start up, that than would have been worth billions of dollars right, so my options would have been worth like I had I had a lot of marketing guy guide uber. Yet of what I mean I shall never TIM's hey. Did you talk to my friend travis? Who started this? The start? If you need some workers- and it's like I so I had, I had all those sort of opportunities, but that wasn't really what I wanted to do. I'm glad you get did get involved in that cause like it didn't work out? Next up was lives of the steward, the art of living from z, Xeno, zeno Zenos either We know too marks rayless. This is, gonna history mode and so the year again. The writing these for you for me,
reading books is just what's in my head. It comes out yeah. It seems so much easier. I'm sorry that you have to write these kind of books bro! No, it's what I love, but it's what you did and it's like well who who were not like what so. The idea for the book is not what did they say, but who were they? where they live up to the ideas and where they fall short of the ideas seneca being the most interesting wide receiver, I interesting seneca rights the most beautifully. He was so famous as a playwright in in roman times. Theirs, from one of his plays as graffiti in palm pay so he's like the most famous writer in rome and he is getting excised exiled under these false charges spends in Corsica, where napoleon is from which he portrays. Is this like speak of silk seneca rights? risk has been this barren horrible rock in the mill. The ocean napoleon born their rights about it. As this his
ways of his childhood, which he always wants to get back to the railways, let go his exile. Does this horrible thing and is called back and its callback back by that, mother of the future emperor this is niro's mere ozma she's. You come back, but you have to be the tutor and adviser to my son, which he does ordinary like teenage boy, but it becomes. It was time that nero