This is the Jack Odin Debrief Podcast Episode one. Would they Burke and me Jacko willing so Dave here we are. I want to talk a little bit about how we got here and why we decided to do this. What we do it at echelon front is work with companies we talk to them about leadership. We try and pass on the lessons that we learned about leadership. We try and help them long the pathway and help. Their organization align all of their leadership. We do the same thing with E F on mine, which is our online platform, and we spend basically all day every day, talking about leadership with all these different individuals. These different scenarios- and we when these things happen now there issues that get resolved there's issues they get the don't get results.

And take another move and another step, and we spend a lot of time debriefing these things and I was thinking and we were thinking that it would be if we get done talk about one of these things and I said, would nice if we had recorded that debriefing to let everybody knows that there's a solution to that particular problem, lotta topics Lotta universal lessons, and we thought it might be called to put together podcast about that. So here we go We try to keep it a little bit shorter than the normal Jocko podcast, not talk for five hours. That way people can digest them, get the lessons in and move on, trying to keep up, maybe like a half an hour, something like that cover a couple topics. So with that Dave, let's debrief what you got the cool part about talking about leadership.

Every day is like, I can't think of anything else. I'd rather be doing, and the conversation we're. Having are these real time, problems at these companies are struggling with and when we come up with a solution that makes a huge impact, and I think the connection I was making when we're talking do it is how useful back- and you ought to be at this company for the lesson and take away to be useful for you. So I think this is of his pre universal, the first company. This first conversation we're Heaven. It came up real, We and the thing it's crazy about I'd, probably had four different companies have been working with just in the last couple weeks, all deal with the exact same thing, covert, hits certainly March the whole thing everything kind of shuts down and one of them.

First things we were talking about, you talked about this on on one of our very first Eve online sessions, as you gonna tell your people, the truth, and this is an emotional time you gotta see detached from the emotion, but you have to tell your people the truth and one of the things I think a few people did was in there there concern about making their people worried is. Is it hey, there's nothing to worry about. Everything's gonna be fine. Not when anybody off when I can make any big movements, and so in that the interests of keeping people com, they said something that, in in the short term, actually kept them pretty com a year. Worry about. Let me ask you: this was what they were saying, the truth. So it wasn't that you are thus able users that you can. You can pre idea, I defy the issue that you're gonna have, when the hour the gate. What you're saying is not the truth, and here's what you gotta watch out for? You might think that you understand, you might think you understand any kind of bolster Europe

you're, not because you know it's the easy way, it's the easy way to roll. So I Can I go hey you know what viruses hating, it's gonna last a month, you know what we can. We got enough funds will be fine, we're not lane anyone off that's the truth. As you see it that you're missing is you don't know, that's it that you're missing an If you remember early on when we were talking in echelon front, I said hey, this is a virus, is gonna run its course. It just like when you get it as a human being with a virus. Look when you get a bacterial infection, guess what you go and you take antibiotics in a clean you up there what you do with a virus. There's no there's! No answer box, it runs its course and then its use, and three days in bed, and when it's over it's over, you lose veal, five, eight pounds of whatever. Because you can eat or your second thrown up and then you get on as over and and then you go back to normal life, and I just thought I

ok, this is a virus can run its course it in you just extrapolate that out. To the nation- and you say: ok well, the virus, that's what I did. Ok, the virus gonna run its course, and course, and actually, when you look at. When you look at the world, many place That's exactly what it looks like there's, a massive spite: their virus runs its course and then it's kind of gone did you, and if you look at ITALY right now massive spike people dying awful and then it's over. It's run its course That was that was my opinion of what was gonna happen, but it you remember when we art about what we're gonna do to echelon front, I said weak the breath hold through this thing, meaning hey. We could just be like ok, battened down ashes. Let this thing get go through unwilling back on the road in two months and will be back to normal business, but there was enough of an-

enough of an ego control mechanism in place that I was said to Myself- I think that's what's gonna happen, but I don't know that that's what's gonna happen, so I convince myself that that was the truth, I said: hey, is what I think will happen, but we are not. Do baffled? We're gonna, make proactive changes right now make adjustments, because I don't know how long since the last I'll tell ya along. I think it's gonna last, but I don't know that so. Therefore, we are going to make it Parliament's right now to be read, if this thing would work. If the things when two months great what we will carry on if it's not over if it last for three months or five months or six months or a year, we're making. That's right now to be able to contend with that sort of a future. So out of the gate, when used, thinking about these things as a leader. You not only have to tell the truth. You have to make sure that you are telling the truth. To yourself about what you know in what you dont know so to come

The gate. When something like this hits and say we are going to be fine, you know everything's good. We don't have to make an Just meant I'm not laying anyone off we're, not cutting, that's not being truthful to yourself about what you know and what you don't know yet and that right there is the difference when you none of these companies on his folks, we work with sat down. He said this is gonna, be really bad, but I can't tell my people that someone a lie to them, that that's not what this was. It exactly. I described, which was hey. I don't really know, but the I think the best thing I can do is keep everybody calm. Cuz we're going to get through this. That's the breath, hold hey everybody, we're going to be fine and then not telling your true to this yourself. So you don't tell the truth but what it does, it defers the problem and now there in a position where not only the gravel with what what to do now, because neither having to make some harder decisions there, all The position that have to sort of explaining defend

Why they said what they said for five months ago, instead of being true for witches? Listen, I don't know. What's gonna happen, I do not know what's gonna happen here. Things that I think may play out for some experience. That tells me my move in this direction, but the way and operated this company is going to be actual wanna, be flexible, gonna change to make for weeks, seed and thrive and get through this, and that may mean some hard decisions along the way that when they come, will address them and I don't have it in a play out. But what a do is everything we can to make sure we get through this. That is a very different conversation. Then you have nothing to worry about. Everything is fine. Don't worry about how this place outcome in a couple months will be back to optional. So that goes into you'd. You tell your people the truth and you make a mistake. So then, what do you do? Clearly? We know what to do. The book is called extreme ownership when you, Well, you can't say: hey everyone don't worry about it. Will we find it can be

a couple months, no factor and then once goes by and is still there and you don't have any income and all of us and we gotta start. Let people go what you do. Would you tell the people, the truth about what's happening, and you say Here's what is happening. Then the most important thing you ve gotta do once you once you say hey, this is the adjustment that I've gotta, make you gonna, say and hears why need to make this adjustment. I will wrong. I thought this. They would be over two months. I was wrong here You just know we're making the reason that we have to What's this situation, the reason we have to reduce salary right now is because we don't really reduce salary? We are going to run out of money run out of money. We won't have a business anymore, so weird You cut salaries right now, and you know what I did. No, when it's coming back here or some other measures that we are to take we're gonna, just our business in this direction. We are going to do I just our business in another direction. Edition. In front, for instance, what business with

Did we adjust? We start doing all online training. We would from ninety nine point, nine percent face to face too. Ninety nine point: nine percent virtual at origin What do we do at origin? We went from taking these and genes by the way geese that great business to be in winter, thousands of Jiu schools. Expanding Asked the country and then in a bottle one week period, every single jujitsu, school and academy in America were shut down. Who's buying geese when you can't do jujitsu. So what do we do? Pivot? We started me. Other products priority we started, making masks, we re some of our other production, but you you can to sit there and say well, you know what will do sit around a wait until until people need geese again when when one is going to be, I mean well too. To be quite frank: actually people are starting to order geese again.

How and where we wrapped up production again, but we didn't know how long it was gonna be. So you have to explained not just not just what you're doing not just about the mistakes we made not to buy your errand judgment, but also, why you're, why you're doing this you're having our work? the the day is almost the exact same problem and He was. We were wrong playing. How he was gonna. Tell his team. Hey, you know we're gonna have to get rid of some people, it wasn't just cotton pay more that we're gonna have to get some people and in what he was saying, was a business decision which, which is on extreme version of I'm not having any motions right, pavement the business decision, I mean it tell if Dave tells me my boss- says yeah, I'm cutting three people to businesses and sorry. That means to me Dave, doesn't care about me. You just cares about the business, If you tell me that we are doing this

because if we don't cut people right now, we will have to shut everything down a no one's gonna have a job and the way my goal is. We bring once been starts going to get it. We make these adjustments and we pivot. We move will be able to bring some be other people back on board. Yes, we're trying to do so, telling people the truth telling them. Why you're doing what to do in admitting that you're making mistakes very important things to go through in situations like this, yet we were talking about just today any if online were talk about leadership capital. And the best way to lose leadership. Capital lose trust lose respect- is to show your team that you don't care about them and when you talk about the, why one of the things you How to explain inside that? Why is how do we get through this? How do we get healthy and why those sacrifices are important and It is not easy to let some one go. It's not easy to do that, but if you

enough leadership capital, an you care about you people end up when you explain Why- doing what we're doing and how these things these steps along the way might give suggested to actually crease investment over here, and I might shift you from this job to that job or I might not be able to bring you back here, but when this happens in this happens, I now, to bring you back those people. What we are seeing is that people getting their hours cut period in salaries got there still try to contribute as much as they can and work above and beyond what is expected of them because they believe in what's happening and they want to be part of the recovery that Tina and help. Maybe the Is it going to be there or even just make that company survive? So even in these hard business decisions, the thing that matters the most of your people, believing in what they're doing for you and what were seen as the companies that are working through this, their people are stepping up and contributing, went on paper, they really shouldn't but they're doing it because their leaders there saying and doing the things that make another. I care about you,

I want you to be successful in this is how we make it happen. We don't. And we all fail. We all lose the the losing leadership capital by not taking care of your people. The biggest indicator and self check to ensure that you're, not allowing that to happen is make sure that you're putting your team above you put put put put the team above yourself, and that is one of those things you think you can get away with. You think no one's gonna notice that you kind of you carry yourself. You took the easy job you took, you didn't take the pay, cut whatever the case may be. You think one's gonna notice that they all notice it- and this is coming from years of experience of my own of watching my leaders and seeing them take care of themselves sometimes and will end here in the hope that just me, some just like I noticed it cause. I was super perceptive. No, I'm talking not everyone in the produce. Did you that Visa Arap over there sitting with his hands his pocket, while we're working.

Everybody notices that and one of the things I certainly have a mind today, that somebody pulled out a little quotas. In the chat box. Was you know if you're your team is going to suffer you better partake in that suffering as a leader and you better partner. A more as more than anybody else. More than anybody else otherwise Your burning your leadership capital for no reason and this is this. Is this situation? These are the times when that leadership, capital matters, the most you another cool line today, online leadership, but all is the currency of winning. Yes, listen! We were all running on a pretty hot streak. The country the world is running on a hot streak, we were all benefiting from this. Rising

tie that all of us were growing expanding making money and things were really good for most of us for pretty long time. Well, it's not like that now and we're really matters? We really show that you bill. Even the things that you say that the ethos it your people come All the things that we can say when it's easy to say when things are are easy. This is where that leadership capital matters the most, and this is when winning is the most difficult when that currency is the most valuable. This is the time to have that currency You might like that. Let's get good ways to deal with these situations and preventing rumour and the chaos and the mayhem, and how do you do that? Tell the truth, explain why and

Make sure that you lead from the front when it comes to suffering partake in the sun was an excellent. The one. So this is a kind of a relationship thing. We ve got a couple people. These are gonna, go Senor folks, in the team kind of Kiki leaders in the team they'll work prevent together they ve got to your super common, both manager in leadership positions. They both work with each other, and one person I've always coming to the person and asking for help. I am coming to you, hey I've got the situation. Can I get your advice and I was vice and I never following so there's been a as on ongoing trend that, for months and years we're equals repairs. I make the gesture of asking what you think, but I actually don't apply or implement what you think, but If I go do what I want to do, and I try to solve this

commissioner, my own, and it doesn't work out. I kind of come back at you and can point the finger you, so got this person who's been frustrated because he feels Every time you offer some advice, this other person cannot ignore it blame them anyway, so couple weeks ago I got the Hake give time for collective cap. Absolutely they want. Me through this. This person came them asked him for advice and they said Otto I give you my advice anymore. You don't listen to me and even if I offer something that doesn't work, you still blame me for the problems, person is kind of resign themselves at this equal. I'm not gonna help you I'm not going to work through this with you. I'm tired of you asking me and not doing what I say. What should I do in this wish, and that was kind of the scenario they were tired of having this other person asked them for help towards. Don't I told him, I told him He didn't wanna hear look man. This is why this is a hard thing to,

the reason this when it was hard for them and the reason why this is hard for anybody and we can all put ourselves in the past and where we are, we have exhausted by the other person's behaviour. The only issue really that's going on here is this person. Own frustration as persons own ego, so the king, Can, I say, listen to me. We I got the situation, they ask you they ignore your advice. They do what they want, it doesn't work, then they keep coming back to you for advice and you don't help them anymore, and I said who who benefits from that? He said nobody is okay. How did the team benefit The team doesn't benefit. So what's the real problem here and I didn't actually had to tell them what the problem was right. When said the problem, it, my own ego, and the reason this person this this personal was able to say that it we ve been working with them for months and months and months and they, like most people, do overtime, come to the conclusion that almost every situation. We gotta relationship problem. The answer is almost always your own ego, it's almost,

always you are the or the problem inside that relationship, and so the question since it is it is it potential that maybe the advice that you give this other person isn't that good so. We cannot dissected a little bit of aid. The two you'll key things to think about, as one is hey it may be that the problem is with them. The problem is with you, and the other element to is. If you come to the conclusion that you're no longer going to participate on this, you know I did contribute you're, no, no, no wondered and offer. Will you have? What's the come out and the outcomes that everybody is gonna loose and so that conversation kind of sunk in were sick. Listen that frustration. That is your problem. You can How do you get past that so I'll go one step further on that? if I'm trying to say I'm trying to give you advice and you're, not taking the advice,

One question I could absolutely ask myself is unified if I take ownership of that said. Well, maybe my advice is that good that that that could be an outcome right now. Other at anyone. Why do I do about that? I try to formulate better ideas, but the other thing is maybe I'm not doing a good job of communicating my advice to you in a way that you actually want to take my advice and if if I can't communicate something in a way that you want to accept it? Then you're not going it and one of the most rudimentary mistakes that human beings make is give, when I say: hey, Dave, here's a better way to do what you're trying to do. That's your left. In fact, let's try. This Dave. Let me give you some advice now. Look if I know you ve got a big ego and I come to you with. Let me give you some advice: how's that gonna work,

it. Ain't gonna work out it ain't, gonna, work out, you're gonna say go ahead. And I'm going to tell you my id is going to bounce off your ego shield, like a with with with no not even making a dent trying to make a dent, so baby and when we start pulling the strings on this and in this One of these things were sometimes you almost feel like it. It's a cop out to get The point in the conversation where you say you start pulling during pull the strings? Pull the strings? You get to point you go. Oh you, dont have a good room. I don't have a good information jeopardy, because if I did it our relationship with you and I gave, Advice should be like. I see it that way and if I don't have that strong enough in the relationship with what I need to do is actually be more tactful and maybe say, hey Dave. Can you explain me why you're executing it like that. So I can understand a better. You say: well, you don't worry. In this way is the most efficient way though, the way you're doing this one part over here the cycle over here. Does that least

that always work the fastest Oh yes, always the best way, its awesome? Have you ever seen anyone do it this way. I was wondering what your opinion was that an all I'm doing is opening up your mind, trying to have accomplished. I'm actually now, instead of me giving you my opinion, I've actually flip. Deck over. Now I'm asking you for your opinion. Thank you for your opinion, which means that I'm elevating, opinion, because I'm asking for not giving you mine. When I give you my opinion, I'm elevating my own opinion. I want to elevate your opinion, so I said what do you think about that little project over here this little cycle duty That's the best way. What your opinion on that and you say, will you I have seen it done better, an oversight, we're having a real conversation about it, similar vein. I had a I had an individual on a on of honour, a company, and the guy props the guy says. Hey.

What do I do with my spouse? Won't take ownership, they own it this that I had to go through the whole thing lessen the now this. About your spouse- this is about and if, if you looking at your spouse, when your spouse doesn't execute thing. U way you wanted to. Actually on you and I go- I always go back to Charlie Plumb to Charlie Plum. If, haven't heard that podcast number seventy six and they in the in the Hanoi Hilton. Are you shot down and was a prisoner of war? for six years, and when they had so mates, if their cellmate was doing something that annoyed them. If, if day was doing something as my cellmate that annoyed me. It was my fault with my fault and That's why it's, if that step number one for you.

You're gonna get a lot further in all your relationships instead of thinking when Dave's show something that annoys me, that's my fault instead of Dave does something that annoys me is my fault for not allowing it to annoy me and I need to adjust start there, a good place to start The beauty of that too, is is whatever level. Whichever way you look this had. However, you want to pull that threat of that problem and get to the core of it every direction you look at it every way you attack it. It always comes back to you, which is actually a really. Thing, because that means you have all the control over the situation and if the first approach and work who factor take another approach, The other reason why talk about this one this is a but it we got a long standing relations with we ve been with them for well over a year. We know these people really well and this is one of those conversations that I get to have this kind of fund. Is that

In the middle of the conversation, I can see the other person dialing they know. What's going on and when we're talking, and I was to talk about the idea of hey. Listen when you resign yourself tat. I can do this anymore as I'm good. Get to an explanation, this person custom. Often says that's not cover and move in that right. There's a hey! We're done! That's! You got that's exactly right, and so, when working with other people and you see them make the connection it makes it. To peace, so much easier when they can in their own minds they all. Hey. What I'm not doing is this in that hurting me in asserting the team I can easily go fix that it makes no sense, peace is so much easier to apply its easy to keep regular check. We connect when you can actually connected the things we teach and this is one where they said- that's not cover with- I got it. That's gonna go check all right. So

bill good relationships and by the way, it's on you. Well, what do you want more normal yeah? What do we got? We had. We had a company where we had a regional manager, can a responsible for several different districts, always regional matters, can seek? I think they are like the eastern portion nodded or something along those lines at a bunch of different districts that can answer to this person. And one of those district managers is probably there asked? Is your manager good go but bit of an ego and is this: your manager sent an email to boss telling him hey here's all the things you were doing wrong here is all in the same kind of just an aggressive email and cannot tolerate a limit of frustration with how this regional manager was operate. So it was an effective email. Obviously that didn't we. That wasn't an effective email

I mean the regional managed in reading go cash. Thank you for this input, great common at me, like that, I really you're sure, I really appreciate your transparency that did that's out how over and it's what you said that because I think inside the email there was a phrase I'm just being transparent or I've. Just being honest, something like that, which was the have you out of here, I'm to be a jerk totally out of it. Inappropriate and nothing I'm going to say, is gonna resonate but say it anyway. That's cannot email came across and, of course, the regional manager amazingly didn't appreciate that So an interesting hat thing happened. They talked about it and this person that sent the email this guy? hey you know what I'm sorry you're right and realise that the way did he communicated, wasn't effective and straight up took honours above it and said: hey, I shouldn't I let my motions get the best me apologize and it s. Happen again to do much better job communicating, but that that wasn't there was the issue

The issue is in this case that regional mantra that boss took the apology of the subordinate as a win as a as a victory and so on this person took ownership and apologize. Today I was out of line regional manager reinforce by saying yeah, you were something like door. Let that happen again. Don't ever taught me like that and left it is. I kind of won the argument. I put you back in your place and there should be no concern confusion on your mind of how this thing works, and that was actually the real issue here, because that regional, manage this senior boss was in a position to have an incredible win. This bad situation and what they did was the undermine their relationship because the other part,

it was doing what we've been talkin about, what to take ownership and when they did that they kind of got smacked in the face over doing that, and that the amazing thing about it was that regional manager took a win and turn it into a loss and created more problems with subordinate that had nothing ever come out of it from the gecko units. That's interesting so Usually it's the other way that I have to discuss. This issue, which is when might when I say as the boss a Dave. This was my my fault it should Look on this way. I made a couple: cause it's on me and people. Yeah. But what happens when David says back me? Yeah you're, damn right, jock! Oh, it is your fault. People don't want to do that that catches em off guard. They don't know what to do. When I say: hey Dave, you know this was my fault. I shouldn't let this happen. You yet was your fault and now.

Wait? Wait? A second. What happens my ego flares up and It seems on conflict. Now your blaming me and when blame me? I get defensive and now I go on the attack and I actually retract my ownership I find interesting about this. One is the deal on the arm. The subordinate and I submit the the the apology, hey boss. I'm really sorry I I got emotional and I got I This aggressive email. I shall read it before I sent it. You know Build a good relationship with you, it's on me, I won't let it happen again. I'm sorry. And then the regional manager goes yeah. It is your fault, and you better not do that again. And what happens to the subordinate. The subordinate goes wait a second. We do you you're saying this is my fault and there were correct response: actually is yeah boss? Absolutely

I just said this is on me: it's my fault, but what have is so it's or even though gather the regional manager, the boss, too bad move made a bad tactical move. Didn't build relationships in moving forward, but the subordinate. What he should do that lets you know I was disappointed that one of the times consistently yell an answer. We know what I can Sicily, Yellin answer witches When I say hey, this is my fault. You say yes, it doesn't go. I know that's exactly what I just said is this thing hate. Hey boss. I should have done this. Is my fault yeah you're right? It is your fault. Yes, absolutely boss! That's what I just said in a new tab, deafening wanna take ownership and I I need to be think through things before I do it boom love eight. The conversation move it forward as opposed to let near go flare up a little bit. Look this! What we're doing? How do you? How do you,

you, disarmed the eagle you subordinate your own. I can't I can't forcibly subordinate your ego. I can't were simply do it. I and we have to big egos in the room. I can forcibly subordinate you I can try and how? How can I you? I can be offensive to you. I can put you down. I can rank on you as all these ways. I can try and force this. Mission of your ego, none of them work. I mean it ain't, they might work temporarily. You know I can yell and scream at you and kick you out of my office cool. I won that that minute battle yeah and then your your buncoed, even more in Europe, you hate me now you went from Ok, I'm pasted boss. Now I hate my boss, so it's not a win win. I force please try and submit your ego, I'm not, gonna make it happen properly. So what I I can do. Is I subordinate my own ego- and you know why stings, it stings, I know it's things I know

these things because they got charcoal you you go to room if your boss, if your boss, I will tell you, knew some stupid, you just stand up and say: oh no boss, I'm not doing it wrong! I'm made a career out of subordinating my ego. Why, not a kiss someone's ass, not to make him feel good, but before that could do my job better, so my team could get the sport we needed, so we can move forward, so I could do. That relationship when I did it is something for my boss. I could actually get it. That's what we're doing here,. So when you feel that frustration- and you can hear it- you can hear- in someone's voice will the words that they use when I have caught in here, but you when he, when, even when I hear he, he took it ass, a winning, an and took it ass. If he was right, he was. He was accept that

except that and use that as a starting point to begin to redevelop and rebuild that relationship probably a good place to stop, we did at thirty three minutes, not bad. All. Right, if you want to join, if you want to dig deeper into to all aspects of leadership in any arena you can join Dave and me and the rest of the EU the excellent from team. If online dot com we problems through leadership, does what we do You want leadership, guidance inside your organization. You can come check out our leadership consultancy at ashcombe on front dot com. I have also written a bunch of books on the subject of leadership. Extreme ownership, dichotomy, reshape leadership and tactics got some other time gas Jocapa gas Jacko unravelling grounded.

The Warrior Kid Pont gas, and if you want to support any of these podcast, including this one, then you can get some gear from Jacko store dot com. Or origin main dot com, thanks for listening to the debrief, go out and lead this Dave and Jacko out.