This is the jacko podcast civil war, excursion number one with J d baker and me jack a willing good evening, J d grieving jacko. January twenty first eighteen sixty one I rise, MR president, for the purpose of announcing to the senate that I have satisfactory evidence that the state of mississippi by a solemn ordinance of her people, convention. Assembled has declared her separation from the united states under the circumstances. Of course my functions are terminated here. it has seemed to me proper, however, that I should appear in the senate to announce that fact my associates- and I will say, but very little more. The occasion does not invite me they go into argument and my physical condition would not permit me to do so if it were otherwise And yet it seems to become me

to say something on the part of the state I hear represent on an occasion. So solemn, as this. It is known to senators who have served with me here that I have for many years, advocated as an essential attribute of state sovereignty. The right of this eight to secede from the union. Therefore, if I had I believe there was a justifiable cause. If I had thought that miss city was acting without sufficient provocation or without it, listing necessity. I should still under my theory of the government because of my allegiance to the state of which I am a citizen, have been bound by her action. I, however, may be permitted to say that I do think she has a justifiable cos and I approve of her act. I conferred with her people before the act was taken, counselled them that if this state of

things which they apprehended should exist when the convention met, they should take the action which they have now adopted. Mr president, senders having made the announcement, which the occasion seemed to me to require it only remains to me to bid you a final at gear on that right. There is a speech from Jefferson Davis to united states senate, announcing the secession of mississippi from the united states a few weeks later February. Tenth Jefferson Davis was unanimously elected president of the provincial government of you. The confederate states of america- and this would lead to civil war, has would lead to. HU, the downfall of the economy. This would lead to the destruction of

people's lives of families and it would lead to the wounding and death of millions and it would rip asunder the united states of america, but it would, in time free the slaves and allow America to live up to our ideal that all men are created equal, but it was a wretched road and it's a road that we should not forget. We walked down. Let's talk about how we got there, let's talk about the two men leading these two nations: the opponents, Abraham lincoln and jefferson Davis, J d: let's talk

Jefferson Davis yeah. If you look at jefferson Davis, size born in kentucky and then again he was raised down in mississippi jefferson Davis. I was a west point guy. I went to west point graduated up there I fought, and at the time, if you went to west point, you were unearthed to crack. Basically, that is that a safe assumption or that too strong none at all, that's pretty good. Yet he got jefferson. Davis was like the youngest of ten kids ass. Well ass, an aristocrat yeah well, not another like his. His oldest brother was a very prominent lawyer, so he had connections. You know got it you gotta get an appointment, yo yo to be able to do answer, yet its due to achieve an appointment, The west point: that's it that's all fair feed, I would say it's probably still difficult today to get in

Yeah west point or any of the the academy schools of of achieving go congressional appoint. To get in so yeah plantation folks yearning that europe's born up kentucky, but they move down to the mississippi there. There runnin plantation in forming a kind of thing. It's a big family, Then you haven't large families, you needed apple, oh but kids, because yeah how much work to do remain. Let's see you got those Folks, company, and so are you get an appointment up the west point. Now you goes up to up: the new york yo. He fights in the in the mexican american war and he actually fights underneath his father in law. His first wife I married into the Zachary taylor family, which you so in Zachary taylor, very prominent virginian,

marrying into that kind of family that that's that's a pretty big deal, your marrying and if you want to look at kind of like who you marry into like robert e Lee married in to the washington family. So it's colleague nascar remain like J D, not get Nan, because my last names not petty, earn earnhardt gordon Me too. There are certain pedigree that that does come with that. Not, but if he fights with distinction and underneath with them, he he then goes runs and offers eyes secretary war at once, waiting time again, he's down every other appointment after the initial election that he ones and the congressional seed he's appointed so. He wins one time, but yes, Jeffrey Davis growin up by in mississippi play. Annotation owner

is very much pro slavery. And voices. His opinion foresight Three four states rights. He voices his opinion for here you got it Territories that are that are pushing, now western expansion of the manifest destiny carnea, which was, the whole aspect of yo, pushing everything. West united states see the shining, see kind of thing. He was huge with and a first destiny- and he was also used with the expansion of slavery, ended the territory and that's and that's a critical kind of political debate at the time. We got these new territories that are common online and the people in the north primarily are saying look. We can't have slavery in these new areas and the people in the south are saying no we need to have slavery. That's a bunch of farmland that were taken over. So this is a real key. Cannot political debate at the time is is slavery. Gonna be allowed in these new territory is right

it's a yeah, it's a it's a huge debate and you know who controls the house is important. So you know who is a free state, who's a slave state and to make is the year when you go when for voting time to sway with inside a silent. That's gonna be huge, but yeah I mean the the debate. If, if you look at it in the end time I am a viking. I have right now when you know you just read from from Davis, you look at it. Eighty six I mean we're a pretty young country. I I would venture to say that we're still a pretty young country- and you know when you're talking about four score. Yo domain of of the gettysburg address whom you kind of dayton forget a score. Folks, I don't know it is twenty years, so you know it's for of course it was eighty years ago. You know what I mean we just had. You know like england over here running around and we got fed up with that. Yet so we were like hey, let's, let's, let's have a war independence and then we get.

We get done with the war of independence, so we're going to get like rid of this. You know this. This hierarchy of the king and queen were going to be the united states of america, near the home of the free, LEO and and next thing you know like we, we find gold and north of georgia. So what's come up with an indian removal act, If the aliens had that land yeah yeah. If you went to north georgia, you know what I mean you got the the choctaw chickasaw cherokee they're all running down there. Well, hey man, I got gold. So what do we do? Is we the people of the united states? Let's have an indian removal act? Why not put them on a flat boat? Take them up to new tennessee, dump him off and then high come out to the Oklahoma lama, territory. It's gonna, be the new indian territory and we're gonna. Take the lead, and there they are so even be open. To that slavery issue of really being a thing of like what we're gonna talk about. Yeah, like the liberal north of like you, Henry David, the row of sir

will this obedience. Yo remain of like calling for all machines have their friction, but one friction has its own machine, you need that mission, she no longer meaning we need. Overthrow. The federal government like who are we word literally creating this man, shame that we just overthrew like just a few years back and now we're removing people We're enslaving people are for work so a lot of the liberal north are actually as well calling for the overthrow of the government. There are not happy with the united states government, and then you're coming into the expansion of after the mexican american war. I mean there's a lot of contention when you kind of look the mexican american war, we go down, we pick a fight with them and it's like okay, we'll take you know. Part of the

access and then kind of hang right. Let's just snag new mexico arizona yeah, let's take California our at it. You mean it and those folks. In mexico I mean they had just got their independence from spain. Yoda made an error like now: we get these dudes common, an so there's a lot of turmoil. The united states is a very young country of what what direction are weakening. Are we gonna go you can see it's like a start up almost like a start up company that is growing, Oh fast, there's no there's! No, I predict in the course that we all know we're on- and this is where we're going to take a startup like there's opportunity- is going to pop up going to move in this direction. Move in that direction. There's it's it's the the future is not clear, not an. Who regret a base it off like if you look at historically What I mean cause you gotta look at like okay, so how? How do we run this with the the the we, the people kind of thing you know I mean even at the very beginning,

meda after the war of independence, the summit officers hadn't, gotten paid for their time and up and newburgh new york you know all the officers get together and they're like hey we're going to have this like secret meeting up there in new york and we're going to we're going to overthrow the government that we literally is created and working to make king george, the first what make his course. George Washington is the most popular guy, obviously, and so they're they're gonna happen, hope. So george gets wind of this little yeah meetings is going to take place, muncie officers and how they're going to come in and make them like. King George, the first comes up any yet the mouse the stage of course everybody quelles he's a very he's, got a very a prominent dominant command presence and he he pulls out his his his spectacles and they called them spectacles back then, because you look like a

spectacle with the long face, and it's a sign of weakness, you're, showing weakness in front of your subordinates kind of thing and he's, like my eyes, have grown blind to the service of my country. Yeah I mean so he showing that no remained yes in the service of my country, yummy Gonna have to have some sacrifices here. I get it my way, gotten paid we're gonna, get that were a new country were mean we're literally trying to figure stuff out. One and you get in through the indian removal. I get still justice this project that we're kind of throw into Like you said, with a new start on company, I mean sawdust a new country. We gotta figure out what kind of rules we're gonna play by so

jefferson, Davis, with this expansion- that's kind of common in, of course, he's an advocate for for slavery. You look at the confederacy of the confederate states. I mean they're solely based on agrarian, culture. It's a it's an engram and they need people to work in Why why? Why did Jeff? some Davis right to prominence. Why did he get this powerful position of giving elected as the present a confederate states? Just mean. Is it just a combination of everything you just said this guy's he's got money here been in government before. Been in the military- and he was just the most prominent guy suitable for this job- yeah and, as you read, I mean he's very well spoken he's very well, listen to and again you know back and back in the day, even even though still to this day, may you serve the military with distinction that may

You're, what's in the newspapers, yearn yeah, there's no theirs twitter, instagram stuff like that, for people to be able to follow so everybody's reading, newspapers and and These guys are the ones that are front page in the news, so he hastily Why so he's got this following of of individuals and yet, when he he's a year at the democratic convention cause here, we had kind of chit chat before you know, like back then, and like eighteen, sixty, I'm pretty sure there was. There was for different tickets that you could cause a run on fur. For the present. A united states also for different political parties to their yea too, were democrat because the Democrats they split So you had northern democrats and he had the southern democrats, and then you got this republican party. That's gonna come at cause. You know, like in history, probably read about like the way

If the copperheads I mean they have all of these different names stuff, like you know, in in twenty twenty two, we know Republicans democrat independent. Well, they had yeah. They had for more of em back then, and of course, with the southern Democrats give they were yet west. Expansion pro slavery, yo see two shining, see that they're all for that and the folks when they are looking at this secession from the union are not, along with the alabama, mississippi south carolina yeah, there's other states that are a teetering of of, are we gonna secede from the union and jefferson Davis is the most outspoken. So it's like unanimous down montgomery, alabama, they're, they're gonna, pronounce him as the as the president elect federal states and the first white house of the Better sees in Montgomery alabama still stands this day by block and a half

from the actual capital. Alabama, and you know what I find interesting is on the street that its on is washington street. First president united states. Yes or those of global thought process banner Now on. On the other side, the union. We cannot. I don't want to paint this to be too much of a and want to exaggerate. this, but you have a little bit of the antithesis of joy. Some davis in lincoln, who no he's he's not professionally educated right. So you know Davis the west point lincoln is just self taught. For the most part, He seems like is more of a working class guy, then Davis Is that an accurate assessment,

I mean they even had like back then like yeah, we kind of chat a little bit. You know when they called in, like the rail splitter, a yoga mean he was like a blue collar will remain raised, born in Kentucky yeah he's. got a phd. It's got a plain highs, would remain, are got want to, but he read a lot you and remained so they go. I look out at education spin furry since the establishment of forced library, gill library card reed yeah what I mean and that's what lincoln does and he moves out with the family out in illinois, and you know what I mean in heaps starts that two readings he's not formally educated. Buddy starts working. He could he gets a job. He starts making his way up and then he's gonna run and run for office and he's gonna work. Companies. If he's a big guy you for back, then he might even still be the day one of the tallest presidents. At the time he was over six foot, but

You know, and he lost his first election, trying to run in the state of illinois, but he was persistent and he was he's trying to continually continue his education, you'll be smarter, meet with more people Study law. Was kind of a big thing back then workin and inside of a law, and then So he is definitely an opposite of Davis yoda, maybe not get non, formal education doesn't the military background. Basically like lincoln, you like this and paperwork for a couple. Wage during like the black hawk wars and solve and in check box, get the military kind of thing going, but it doesn't have like he didn't fight in the mexican I you in a mane of like folks, are going to take them the distinction against him? so then he's going to decide on the republican areas, gonna become a republican and he's gonna try to run on the republican ticket.

And there's a lot of other folks that are that are inside of there. But again, you've got to kind of you know if you're looking at the at the four different factions of the of the politik well parties that are in there there's actually a great book written by doris, kearns, Goodwin called team of rivals, and it's it's. How, like lincoln, you know what I mean plans out, how he's going to run for president on with One of those parties there so he's he's literally gonna try to go into it is to be number two in each one of those four party now don't go for number one. Yoda main. So if he can be number two in each one is total scores eight. But if you like number one with the republican party. But then, like your number three in number, four Virtue with the other ones were now you gotta twelve, you lost, your name so the strategy behind lincoln and then

yeah. You can I gotta look at it is obviously you have come into it is the expansion of slavery and the territory's ever. But he's got a run on kind of a party line of like what they're gonna. Yet what they're gonna do inside their presidency kind of thing, and jefferson Davis marries into a very prominent taylor, family, Abraham, lincoln, married woman and her whole side of the families pro slavery, so I mean that's gonna, make thanksgiving a little awkward We will remain of of discussions yeah me, you gotta, look at you in internet a society of maine of of what side of the fence you ride, honour, your political group. I could you imagine, go back, then I

If you're looking at some of the folks of what side of the line you stand on your pro slavery, anti slavery, the expansion I mean, there's going to be america in the eighteen sixties is just I mean it's. It's coming to a boiling point but it's not. I think the misconception is our right. Thanks it, ok, Abraham, lincoln, gets voted in half the country leaves volcano it's true but, There was a lot of years of build up to get to the civil war and you have an end. It is the greatest catastrophe that has ever happened in this country of what took place, coming in and eighteen sixty and yet, when you look at the at the party systems, you know Jefferson Davis was a single soul. I'm a nurse. It's a one party. Well, that's kind of odd. remaining. We have one party countries that exists today: their culture,

you know, but for four jefferson Davis, yeah and he's gonna become the president and he's gonna stay the president, the confederate states throughout the entire civil war a year like you, we always talk like here when we went and when you and I are chit chat. We're we're talking about the Abraham lincoln and you reading the gettysburg address, while we're up at gettysburg and all that kind of stuff I mean he's, he's got a reelection coming in sixty four, I mean you never hear about reelection taking place, like dyke. Davis's got worry about a real action. Accommodated is just he got elected yeah? which is kind of odd Well, you know when you look at the at the differences of the two, and you know it's it's it's very. It's very Interesting and in those asked

acts of one is self educated. Once formerly educated one's got the military background and how they're gonna run, their administrations caught it completely different and one of homes blue collar and the other one's kind of an aristocrat yeah. accurate assessment, because it seems that way me looking at it. I mean, like lincoln, doesn't own anybody, Davis owns He's got a plantation remain in it. It's so yeah I mean he's thereon, thereon different levels like you that Abraham link is not bang it at that country club Davis is that you know what I mean he's got like box seats to football games at the at the running rebels down there, Abraham lincoln he's not even invited the four bogging check, as we look here. The north and the south and kind of set them up there's a great great great bit of writing. From sherman who was

general sherman, whose a west porringer from Ohio he ends up become in the first superintendent of what became ls. You. Originally called the louisiana seminary of learning, and so eighteen. Sixty one southern, aids are starting leave, leave the union. Sherman resigns as the superintendent of this school and. and ass before we gm seeds, but he is right in this letter. to another, professor, that he works with a young professor at the university, and this is just such a It's almost scary how well he understood things and how Well, he understood what was about to happen, and I just it's amazing to read so here we go. This is the letter from sherman. He says you pay people of the south, don't know what we're doing. This country will be drenched in blood

god only knows how it will end. It is all for it is all folly madness: a crime against civilization, you peoples speak so lightly of war. You don't know what you're talking about wars. Terrible thing you must stick to the people of the north. They or a peaceable people, but an earnest people and they will fight to there not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it? Besides where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them, then worth can make a steam engine locomotor or railway car. Hardly aid. Yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make

are rushing into war with one of the most powerful ingeniously mechanical and determine people on earth. Right at your doors, you are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination. Are you prepared for war in all else you are totally unprepared with a bad was to start with first, you will make headway but your limited resources will begin to fail. shut out from the markets of europe. As you will be your cause. Begin to wane if your people will but stop and think they must see in the end that you will surely fail. That's that's that's profit. c of what's gonna happen in the following is he's the

what's going to lead the army to do you know what I mean right across therapy so yeah his you know his his foresight of vision into the future and yeah a pretty good pulse for a guy to have on on a nation as a whole. Have you I mean we're building steam engines in the north? You gotta take your cotton and ship it over to europe to make cloth and they send you it back. You know you might have the will you, don't have the means, Conover aspect so yeah for four sherman yeah he's, he's a he's, an interesting guy. You know what I mean. If you you kind of pull the thread on on on sherman. He I was. I was was not lower listener to thomas soul, book and use point now, like you know, cheeses from wisconsin. You know I really think of cheese. Worse constitute, why is it what's cause they because she's is really hard to manufacture bigger cow. was down south, but they weren't we can choose down there. It is,

same thing, you're, saying like they're, taking that they have the cotton therein the south coming out of the ground, but they got a ship it over to europe or up north to make textiles out of it. It doesn't it's it's crazy to think that and meanwhile, in the north, their building, freaking local motives, which is like the equivalent of building a friggin jumbo jet right there and they keep their not able to make cloth down in the south. So It doesn't take much to look at this from me. Outside veal. Of course, maybe sit near hindsight. Twenty twenty, it's like a no kidding, but that's our That's crazy! It's crazy delta between the two between us apart the country that can make locomotives, which means they can make guns, which means they can make cannons, which means it can make anything that they need for war and the other part can't We actually even make shoes to put on the feet of their soldiers.

Utah, about the indian removal act. What about what about like that? john brown raid and how's that how's that viewed Well, you know the whole. That's the bleeding kansas kind of thing. You tell me explain to me more bleeding: Kansas yeah, bleeding Kansas southgate's that western expansion, it's slavery, John brown is an advocate. You know what I mean. He is not pro slavery. He's anti slavery he's going to demonstrations. If you could imagine. having the what's about the moral courage, yo that time in america to stand up, yo remain in and and go against this thing that the country you mean for thousands of years of slavery has been a huge part of the world

you conquer you and slave mean it's happened, view through thousands of years and then to tibet, one of the folks ass. Others says: yeah, we're we're just not going to do this anymore. Like this, is it right. You know what I mean owning another human being is just not right, so there's going to be a lot of of events that are going to take place throughout Kansas, where Missouri they're going to try to expansion coming in because, of course, you've got some people that are better for it. you got some that are against it. So your job brown starts, making trips into what is now like a harper's ferry virginia, it's now west virginia, but back then it was virginia and right there on the confluence of the of the ship, in doha, the potomac river it sets out on opponents. Oh there's an armoury there may have weapons. That kind of thing that that sits there and it's got a rail crosses right over into maryland and

he's gonna stage a raid on harper S. Ferry wants to take over this this arsenal of prosperity and you're gonna get the word. now to some of the slaves and stuff in and around the area like he's, got an arm them and then we're gonna have like this uprising is going to try it there. You know the the problem. Is it's hard to get the word out plus? Then you gotta look at the fear factor of like of of being a slave. and then you you're gonna want me to do what you want me to stand up and you're going to give me a poll, maybe with a little pointy stick of a spear and and a and a gun and we're going to go against. Yoda mean of this. Now we have the slavery of a demonstration I mean so there's a there's, a lot of courage that has to come in just two even stand up to take part in something like that and of course

when you look at it back in the day of the actual united states military, yeah. We don't really have the military of what we would look at of today of what they actually had back then, in eighteen, sixty and in united states time for the army exceeding small and scattered they were prepared to meet a sessional crisis army appropriations for that year were the smallest they had been since eighteen. Fifty five I serve We're looking at by the numbers. The end of the year returned showed that there was sixteen thousand three hundred sixty seven officers and men on the roles of just a fourteen thousand of them were present for duty. that numbers three hundred. Seventy two were line officers, just five of them were general officers, and one of them was when scott, when you look at the

The compromise of of the companies, a hundred and seventy nine of were posted west of the mississippi of the hundred I'd be seven total So there was only eighteen companies on this side of the of the of the mississippi. So when John brown does the raid theirs the visual thereby knows but more general robert e Lee, but he was captain Robert e Lee, the united states army living over too early to virginia, and he called in and he takes a a company mines from the navy yard So you got marines, because everybody else out, let alone to slow down answer. You got. You got this this rebellion has taken place, and this it's gonna be a basically a rebellion against the united states government, because the united states government at this time has slavery. John brown is anti slavery, so he's gonna put together. This raid they're gonna go in

with these weapons hand him out to the slaves and it's going to start a rebellion now in order to well, this there's, a young army captain out ass. Point named Robert E Lee. And he doesn't have an army troops is out what's going on in there all right, you ve around cause, there's only freakin. Thirteen thousand active army troops in all of america of north and south, and There's the marines in the navy yard yeah we're the Back then, the marine course job was basically hanging out all the navy ships to make sure there was a mutiny from they were there to protect the captain of the ship and insert thy so the only real ground, combatant arms global. Was bunch marines So they snag up a bunch of marines and they send them over and a ride the train coming out of DC and not when the marines come in, there's also another young lieutenant at the time. That yo is

from the area as names job Stuart, he kind of comes up a little later on in the civil war of like. I wonder why Robert e lee likes jobs. Do it so much? Well, they got time together. And the marines come in and they end up in harpers very john brown. They end up taken over they get into one of the engine houses itself there so thereby Sickly it's, in my opinion, the marie Come in and they're gonna do the first direct action assault like on this. The site is firehouse this this engine house in harper spare not yoke, is john brown. It's his plan isn't working out as well as he thought it was going to, and then you got Robert e Lee coming in with a buch bracer he's going to try to hole up in this engine house and the marines we're going to come in they're, going to stack

at ladders and stuff man they're going to create entry. They didn't have a breach at the time, but they're going to breach they're going to get hooligan. They're going to hooligans are going to make a hole they're going to make entry into it and then they're going to go to work on John brown and emanate end up quelling the events taking place, of the john brown rate at harper s ferry gonna? Take god, john brown and they're gonna hanging and charles town virginia, which is now charlestown west virginia Some of those northern ergo henry David throws some of those guys are actually present at the hanging. I mean there that the new worth is, is getting really upset with this whole slavery thing that's going on in the south, so now it's starting to get a lot of support yo, I didn't talk to an earlier, but one of the other guys it was runnin was governor seward out of the state of new york. He's and being the secretary state, basically for lincoln in the administration, and

I can remember reading about seward his wife took a tour in the south before the civil war. When she came back, she was like. I will never again go back to the south, states I mean she was just shocked at what she saying that was going on in some of the southern states With slavery in america, so yet there is a lot of folks up in the northeast of america to include midwife sk, as you ve got, your was carts and ohio, michigan You got a lot. He spoke to her like. this. Is this is time yoda me? We need to over in europe. They had already abolish slavery. Like wasn't it May we were like one of the last ones hold on so it was no come in and they are the same.

Hold this obedience in america. This was coming to a boiling point and John brown gonna conic chip that boiling point, but you still gotta get the america populations gotta get in on it, and and Abraham lincoln is elected. President of the united states. Yeah me just like you read, I mean you got fought like we're out it's it's on, so you got to go prior to this. You ve got the liberal. North is key calling for the overthrow of the united states and its. The agrarian south that ends up on the trigger gets us into what will be the next yeah. Probably the five worst years of american history is going to take place with inside the civil war. As the secession takes place, there's like people that have to it's almost like a draft back like an annex, I'll drastic and then what

that you got states that some states that have to kind of pick sides. What does that mean? Pick looks like you got because the military officers come from west point. A lot of them come from west point. Olive and on a lot of them, are coming from west point. these guys know each other. Now you I did a talk podcast talking about camaraderie at the naval academy, you weren't you. You worked at the naval gotta me for a few years, these these people they go through Tough training together they get educated together they drink together. The together they pay sports together they get educate together, So a lot of these a lot is prominent officers all were educated in the same place and west point. So now the all trying to figure out whose go and where and who's gonna want sides how's that wash out yeah I mean it's it. It's just. Sometimes it's mind, boggling, couldn't imagine like enough Servan yet

It would be like you know. I mean that the guys you served with involving and then you come back in the true splits in next thing. You know, like some abroad different sides than you and you're like wait about my life. We shared in the suffering together, and now you're gonna be on the other side. So yeah alleys geyser was points there all ring knockers and first guy, the military bases of the military adviser to Abraham lincoln is gonna, be whitfield scott. What, when field scots virginian. so that that makes it caught awkward. Made progenitors slave state he's, he's a projection and and he's the vehicle rose all of the armies and he's the advisor to Abraham lincoln field Scott at this time. What's his position, he's he's faintly likely sees that.

The chairman of the joint chiefs of staff or something he's a senior military guy, senior military guys old at this point, pretty old guy. Oh, is that right, oh yeah, he's got like sixty five seventy years old when he field scott up yet and and he's a virginian, he's, a virginian by he's gonna, do he's gonna! Stick it out with you here. Stick it out with the union. And he had always, you know- I mean you and when you look at that level and a guy like winfield scott. You know what I mean and with anybody else like he's he's getting long in the tooth, and you know what I mean he's not firing on all eight cylinders anymore. You know what I mean: it's not like he's out getting after it in the morning at five, so he's kind of earmarked an individual that if, if something goes down and the united states, like I got a guy who I'm I'm gonna call and its robert e Lee, and he's right there in Arlington lips rights

stone's throw from the white house at remain it's what modern day today's arlington national cemetery senator so wingfield scots, looking at all the guy eyes that he knows he's the senior military leader and he's his guy. In his mind, when the time comes, I'm gonna get my first draft pick to save the union, led the army actually in the car back some friggin too old for that. So my first draft pic is this guy robert e Lee yeah he's gonna call Bobby and poverty is a guy, he's, gonna call him up and if it's like one of those are points, a tie, in history of like? I could imagine you know he gets a note memo come over here. You need to come see the chief staff of the army, of whatever

and, and he goes entities like hey yeah. You know this whole secession thing that's kind of going on, like I'm gonna need you to kind of stand up an army man and go down and look where you're going to crush it and he's like you have gone for genia and turns, and and and turns it out when you read about robert e Lee, how hard was out for him to make that decision? Was this a was there turmoil like ongoing work, due to preserve the union or see dislike hey now we're goin on virginian, I'm out. I'm sure that he struggled you know, with the issue because you also have to kind of look at it. I made up, of course, you're all our histories remembered history, the main of what some guy remembered of another guy remembered and then what never echo told them than somebody wrote it down, and now it sent a book. So we believe that what you are, I wasn't YAP wasn't there, but you know, but

of us. I can speculate to be like if someone It happened in the united states like right now. You know what I mean. Yeah I'd I'd, probably shoot you a text be like hey dude. What's Audi you're going to go with an mean that you should text over to echo, hey dude, who you gonna roll with, name because, like we're all friends, you may want to make sure that, like I'm not and then you're yeah hey dude, I'm I'm rolling with these guys. I mean there's, there's a lot of these folks, man that are from southern descent, yo there if their family mean you're robert E Lee was maybe courted his wife and fredericksburg virginia roy. I'd across the rappahannock river of george Washington, where he grew up as a child. If you look at mentor ship of Robert e Lee he's he's a virginian he's a washington yoda mean he's he's he's gonna stick with the commonwealth of virginia but he's also kind of looking out of the aspects of who else is gone with the confederacy

and if you look at it of kind of whose staying with the north so Robert e lee eyes gonna come in and I'm sure he tee tat. He had to abstain, well, because he served will These guys in mexico, so but I'm sure we came back afterwards, as you can see like a lot of other people like winton yeah, they resign their commissions and they went to do other things. That's why downsizing of the military after the mexican america war there like a great but as country. We're not going to stand up and we're not gonna have liked. This large armies of what we have today or even navy. On that token, so you know, but when scott, I'm sure it had a lot to play in that he's: a virginian property liza, a virginian, but robbery we've served with distinction. I mean it could probably its debate

all. But Robert e Lee is probably the number one graduate of west point like ever. I mean he's he's. he's a pretty prominent guy anyway he's married well into a family he's living in Arlington Virginia got a nice piece of property, and he's gonna leave and it could be underlined. I'm sure, had nothing to do with winfield scott, probably had more to do with whose surprised the united states, when you look at it, of whose the president, the confederacy, well, it's jefferson Davis, where to go to school, he's west pointer fight in a mexican american war jury did give that yo. He withdrew ancient. So do you know that those two guys probably know each other like really well and who does he know this rail sputter from Kentucky that some prairie lawyer from Illinois, you will need a like, hang out with

a guy so I'm sure there had to be some struggles. I mean, I imagine everybody struggle. I mean you're going to see this country of the united states with just you just you know not even a generation of of folks. You know domain and we're already split, and but you know, able to to quell these these forces so winfield scott's, going to call him in as the number one draft pick and he's not going to get he's not going to get that draft pick. And then is also you gotta. Look the navy side of it yeah, you got run unable blockade so where Do you go find navy people are well yeah. You just go down the road to annapolis, and you get this place. I call the united states naval academy and you got the first superintendent of the naval academy abuse, We gotta chit chat about our guy and I You know when you were you go down there, of course, is that the choice to be the chief

naval operations for this. This new force that stand up and it's not like. We got a whole bunch of boats were not big navy. At the time. So you got the naval academy, you got midshipman and he's going to be offered the number one draft pick of the navy and he turns down and goes and joins the confederates joins the confederacy, so were the north is over two on primary draft pick. the game right out again right out of the game? That's gotta, be cause. You know again, you know you're talking about that. I'm going to text you and you're going to text back when we kind of like all see where we're going and you just get a mob mentality going. That's gotta be nerve, racking up north when the first. Few people you're asking hey you know, are you in a little like nope then you got some states right that have to make it a you got, mirror maryland and delaware. These are these, are so

states what, but they don't see. What's up with that What I mean they're there under the in its it's, it's all political Yo remain a fear if you're looking at the aspects of lovely, let's, let's take maryland, when you look at the aspects of ok, so you look at washington, d c and, like literally ok virginia gonna pop smoke and they're gonna go south war, whoop would have maryland, goes we're gonna have to This place. This cool place were building called washington DC because we're to be surrounded by so here with these folks. We are not going to secede to go with the confederacy. Gonna stay with the union, but there still slave states, they slavery in the states in europe There's a lot, a look of where your bringin folks in. If you look at it economically, I mean

two more maryland is a huge port. Still is. To this day. He remained may not where everybody around there that's in baltimore they make their money by working, something that has to do with the port. It's been that way, forever The rail lines. Gonna come from all your north eastern states that are going to run down you through philly, it's gonna come down in and through baltimore too, where now the folks what war there like hey man, you we don't, what these forces come from the north to quell the south, cause it's going to take away our livelihood. So before the vote, a thing here you got Abraham. lincoln and he's got his advisers stuff, and I can imagine there I'll sit round. The table kind like us and in their like, hey, saw their voting over in maryland de mara, whether or not they're going to secede and everybody's like yeah this this that that could be bad if if they decide to secede with go with the confederacy they're like yeah, so of course

ram lincoln yeah new guy he's got a colleague I was like. Oh what do you? What do you think we should do there and we talked like like his advisers, yeah winfield, Scott and those guys? Does it go Abe really got? No me pal. I would know it's only been in the job couple weeks in here if the countries leaving and now I got maryland might have to displace. I, like my house, I just got my TM o move just got in. You know what I mean. Wife's kind of happy got the kids checked into school and it's always like well, why don't we just bombard the city of annapolis like what? How about we just bombarded then Well, I will feel scotland were like you eddie. When they do vote they're. Definitely going to confirm that he didn't quite think of the hearts and minds play yeah, so lincoln says hey, we should just bomb annapolis, it was just Bob and then they just won't be able to vote we'll, be able to. Ok, so they are able to remove them idea from let's be prepared.

whose eye ok, boss, like warrior like a jacket, we can't bomb again they knew Ok, I want you to be prepared so that if they come out with that vote, mean, remain amazed to see man we got. We got people in place to enact like immediately because we gotta we gotta, keep my well dad you're, looking at washington dc supply got that's why I mean it's over. As, if like yet keep your slaves, stop just don't go with the confederacy like maryland, is a split state economy like it if you ve ever gone like your baltimore is very different than the the western side over towards, like sharpsburg maryland over towards that western side of men lend its very its farm. Contrary yo, gregory in and then you go east and that's where you get like yet baltimore apple ass, the boat school, the east.

Sure I mean it's a very different state, so it's a split state. I mean there's some of the folks that are like yeah, hey dude. We we need to row and and go with the confederate see. So I I always. I always imagined that you know what I mean. So, if I'm you know with the with the state and I'm upcoming aunt, Jane, he's, gonna come in and cast his vote that day and I come Yes, Skippin anywhere modocs iders got the little, forgive my little boat boat shorts on and I come in, and I see yo echoes coming to vote that day too, and I'm like hey dude. Did I get it? Did you see those ships like out there in the harbor or like pointing guns at us? Man like what's up with that? It's like I dunno dude, but did you see the like? They got an army. That's like got like their pr to do something, I think it's gonna sway. My vote. Because I live in annapolis. Like me, like you, that's gonna have an effect on me.

within sight of annapolis, and then, of course, you get the naval academy. That's like right. There you go this guy yeah, I was going to say of which the superintendents baling hay bale, and you know what I mean he's going south and you know how it is with anybody else. It's just like any other sports. If you get like this prominent figure that moves to a team, everybody wants to go to that team. Yo remains I'm sure. That's gonna have like a huge effect on a lot of the other june, your officers of where they're gonna wanna go play. Your domain with with which state and yummy? Where are you Rome is huge. It even is still to this day of like where you're born and raised. In a main, I mean that that's usually a big thing. People are always proud to be like get texas and florida they're happy as

they're, really proud, yet be attacks. You know what I mean and there's there's just certain steps back to life. We respect yeah, oh yeah, of course, but for genuine main being from the commonwealth or from any state. So there is that kind of time. And that's what your family live, so you got mom and dad you got grandma, especially back them like. Nowadays, people are much more mobile back then I give you were born in virginia you are probably going to die in virginia if, in your whole, family's, probably going to die and live, live and die in virginia and same thing with connecticut. It and main in maryland, and everything else outside. If you are gonna, gonna defend something: it's not Just defending your home is defending your entire of existing Your family, your grandkids, your grandparents, everything yeah and especially the prominent families like. If you look like you You look like a brand lincoln. The differs from that mean that his family doesn't own plantations. They don't either not bang in it there. moving your name

out of kentucky they're, just trying to stay out of poverty, they're, just looking for a better way ally. On that whole you mean that western exe mansion and everybody coming in the immigration that that's coming into america and then standing west. These folks are just and to stay out of poverty are looking for a better way of life. When you talk about like robert e lee yeah he's not leave virginia man like they own land. Yeah yeah yeah, what I mean Lando and it's not like, like like a single why trailer half acre lot? Man is due to their bang in it, yoda mean like jefferson Davis he's a plantation odor, so yeah your spot on a lot of those books that are in these these these states they're not leave in the state they might go on a vacation to go, take a trip, but their common right back: they're, not gonna, not like us today of of very fluid of moving so maryland has the war. ships in the harbor. They have the true

some mass, that they can kind of sense. They decide our we're gonna stay with the union. Well, what about it? lower delaware, they're gonna stay with the union. The same sort of intimidation nervousness like hey. We at slaves, but we don't not quite sure we want to break away from from from the united states. are there any? Yes, you were there located like me on the map remain They are going to be isolated up there. It's not like they're, going to get a lot of support right. You know what I mean from a from a lot of other folks. Come in at an inn in it. You got like state like kentucky that they're just gonna theirs, ride, fats, they're, gonna, say: hey man, we're neutral. I we're not we're not pick inside there's just get away till the end, your domain, but a course that, If you ve got like a neutral state, of course, whose, where you gonna go to recruit kentucky, because they got books that are southern sympathisers that are going to want to go fight for the confederacy they're gonna want to fight for that way alive. You, just as many of you ve got folks at her even on both

of of of the war. You got folks from Pennsylvania that are southern sympathisers that are going leave the state of pennsylvania, india and they're gonna go south. You got votes from the south better, They come up they're order to join the north. When both sides, so it yeah it. The turmoil in america at that time is just crazy. When you kind of think about. Like you know Lee, I mean the right, I have chickamauga you own, a main who he's a virginia and he goes yeah. You got guys like that that are fighting for the union, so Not all union officers are not all northern descent die. You do southern descent officers that state loyal to the EU and into the united states of america, which is Eugenie also have people in the north of that work. Pro slavery. Power for the union, your statement: Yeah, you know when you're lookin, out of some of the general officers that her debt are fighting in the north,

Basically, what like status quo, like hey man, let's let me say, did jerry just state with just false alarm. Hey we're not really going to get rid of your slavery. You can keep keep doing what you're doing you know what I mean let's just go back to the way things were: let's just status quo it and we'll be fine, which is now that's going. The problem is if you're a general officer in your kind of like in charge, troops in and you are in charge of like putting down this answer. Can see of a rebellion yearning like you're, not really on the same page with the boss, which is kind of you flip side to jefferson, Davis, We're pretty much everybody down. There are all on board with plan you and me we're going to create a new country We are all art lie. I establishing a government, so the only went make him the president may succeed. It's a new car, three being formed now in

the american revolutionary war. You know us against england, america, guts work from europe and Where is europe now, as they look at what's going on in america? They see this. What? What now is a looming war on the horizon? Where's europe sitting yeah, and if you look at it, you know on a business perspective, so of me and you own a textile companies. Moreover, in Europe, where we get narcotic from well, we don't need state imagines remain like we already got that maybe you ve, look, look like an angle, I mean: are the british royal navy yeah? They are like top notch, like these guys are nominal so of, gonna lean towards the confederacy, because that's what we're getting our stuff from those that's! What's supplying us yo they dont have I mean you're. When you look

the colonies, especially with with angle and stuff like that and in the western expansion of the amount of land. Ass that here in the united states compared to england and france and stuff like that, like it's like. Do we got like taxes? like the very rights like all of you all domain and There's an they're getting a cheap, so cause. I can't grow their own food, meaning they do it's going to be more expensive, so they're they're, basically outsourcing. So those folks Europe is gonna lean towards you, the confederacy, if they become their own country. we made. Then they have to be prepared to start setting up trade agreements and and though certain things with this new established government its come, and so Yes, when you look at it on the european theatre, they're gonna be looking at the confederacy, because

they need those resort. Dummy tobacco and cotton is huge. even still to this day I mean you drive that you know spotsylvania virginia man, you just go right down to rich me got philip morris. You know what I mean huge tobacco. Now, england had gone to great lengths to shut down slavery throughout the world. At this point, in time I mean they had lost thousands of men, mostly actually naval men trying to stop slavery. China stop slave trade. They must have been in support of the union. I'm guessing. I think they support them the idea when it comes down to wallet the wallet. You know what I mean like okay, this is this is like really cool that we did it, but you know it's like yeah, but that's just that that those are the cards.

when he's mean even when you look at the yoke of the war of independence of emu, angling still existed, we didn't get rid of them. Yeah remainder carling. Oh you, you are fighting the J b team Nora or whatever, to justify like when I call it the american revolutionary war. I can't just call through in my arm. I am married to a brit, so she doesn't even know what the revolutionary war is. That's not a thing to her like he didn't like what are you talking about wait for us, it's a big deal for them. It was a cigar. Some some colonists are causing problems whatever there. So this is where we end up. We end up. We got these yet this this though the wines are now drawn at this point, there is massive tension, every one kind of fields what's coming take us to take us to charleston harbor, where this thing's gonna kick off. What's that, what's that scenario vote on

Yes, if you could, you know Charleston south carolina, I mean it After they succeed. You know it's kyle like so you ve got it be like in today to kind of put in perspective, like you, California, is gonna secede from the union. What that means Like california is gonna get like you're gonna corn, oddo, you're gettin camp turn You're getting santiago by your get dollar yeah yeah you not, states. Governments figured, I get any of you to me like an you, take it you're, so it's Scully site that got these federal forts that forts that the that better down in charleston and it's not just charleston, I mean we ve- got forts mean that run all the way down to the down to key west yo fort zachary tailors all the way down there in key when you ve got the force, but there's this one that certain and in its,

right. There, you federal government, it's it's! The federal government of the united states government and in their occupying for in the charleston harbor, and there, like you, guys, If you need to surrendered in you, did he get? You need to get you get your shit to get out of here by. Unlike give me, this is our stuff. Now what that that surrender, no right. So you get this guy major anderson who's, the guy from Kentucky, but his wife from Georgia, but he's union guy What I found interesting about this is this: no, you can see its early in the war. This is when people you know it. You know all people are naive. When it comes to war, I should say most people, especially people would have been a war or naive when it comes to war and they think that war is gonna, be quick. Pain. Listen, we can predict what happen. They're all wrong. the beginning of war know sometimes it's like. Oh, this is gonna, be a cordial event, so this guy

major anderson gets this. No, it says all proper, cities will be afforded for the removal of yourself and command together with the company. Arms and property and all private property to any post in the united states, which you may select the flag which upheld so long and with so much fortitude under them. trying circumstances may be saluted by you on taking it down. and by the way, this notice from a guy named beauregard who, was one of anderson's students when they both went to west point, but it eats like against me, and it's part of it is the age no part of it is the the gentlemen, the aspect of of life back then, and you had this sort of nice cordial note. of saying, hey, look you book will ship you, everyone be shipped. You can keep your weapons, you can salute the flag.

You bring it down, but you gotta go. So will you know? Let's make it happen now. anderson's- and you might have to talk me the is simple but Anderson, hee hee. kind of agrees. A little bit. Thinking pay I can get free supplied and If I can get me, help then it doesn't really make a tunnel sense for me to fight and and die. So it's like you. Starting to consider surrendering He doesn't really know that. There's supply ship outside outside the harbor that tries to make entry. We visited the the star of the west merchant vessel on armed, yeah and you got to imagine league so you're, all the way down on the charleston harbor south carolina it'll, be your boss is all the way up off the potomac in washington d c yo, you trot like what's the communications, that in being able to communicate and

yeah there's only a sort of like over ana solomons island. They gotta for there, but it's more exposed. So that's why they They go over to our over and hop into the middle of the bay so they're out at fort sumner, in the middle of the harbour so now you're kind of like you're on an island get there. There's no store, there's, no, not the of the nobody there once you there. You remain so everybody hates you and you run out of resupply, so yeah they're going to try to get the ships and, like one feels god the guys up up. Nor let me they know that like do, we need to get these guys resupply, I are. We need to get more bodies down there, but and I love you ve ever been there. I ve yeah. I mean it's, it's like wild deed. I mean that that, for you just sit now in the middle and your within range.

you domain of like yeah, so it's working It's like set your own alcatraz ride off of san francisco at me, you're just a hop skip and a jump. May I ride over there as well, if you're going to try to bring in naval vessel if you're made to run resupply, even if it is unmanned, you're within range on both sides, I mean there's a reason why they had forts they're meant to defend. Well now you know what I mean. What do you do you never thought of when you ve a stab wish a fort, or one of what am I gonna defend against my own people, like we did that one through not so yeah that they can't get to the communication. So a car at the beginning, I mean, when you look at aunt Some one he's struggling within sight of of the term all himself of one. What's his stake in do he's got his wife, If she's from Georgia, I mean that yet

do I just surrender and and and pop smoke? If I, if I recall- Heiresses, even thought was, if, if kentucky seceded from the union that he was just said this one out overseas. I made an hour, we got it all. I got janizaries he's gonna just pop smoke altogether and he's getting cease just set this out like he wants. No part of this. and now he's sitting in the charleston harbor and he's got one former stewards beauregard this guy send him a note it'll, in its very cordial its time, but yeah I mean it be almost like, as anybody else and out there like hey, do if nobody, those up more was very supplies were tappan out, because what are we going to do you hear mrs suicide sitting in the middle, so Gary's

but then he finally can always realise athletic. He can't surrender shakes off aids. It come to get him to surrender tying. The gaming did justa Is it a bad spots in animal out at yet even the even the fact that the guys are there too? to offer him surrender the you that's kind of cordial right, Then he ends up shaken their hands and he says if we do not meet again in this world, I we may meet in the better one. Then these guys leave now I, for thirty, a m

Sixty seven year old, staunch secessionist named Edmund ruffin pulls the lanyard on his cannon and the first shot of the war is fired and that's the beginning, and we will continue this horrible journey on the next jacko podcast civil war excursion. If you support this podcast go to jocko, store dot com, go to geography, fuel dot, com, go to origin, usa, dot com, go to on front dot com and go to the o m n a dot com.