This is the Jacko Debrief, podcast episode fifteen. Would they Burke and me Jocker willing theyve, let's debrief, what are you up? let me tell you what not to do when you first get promoted. Don't don't tell your boss that they are not doing a very good That's not a good way to come out of the gate, nigh it it may be true, but it's probably not gonna have the effect that you're looking for what, but you that it might be true so it's true, hey man, it might yeah you I speak truth about that's right. that's actually exactly what this is about, working with it: But it's like a cyber security companies and one of the US We are talking with, is it pretty near to the company. He got. In a supervisory role, sharp guy got promoted to a management role which is gonna one step and its, but it's still a step below like the executive leadership level and one of the things he

you're not very early on in his initial role before we promoted was the executive. Leadership doesn't really have a good sense of what's going on down outlines things that he was seeing every single day. Ok, so we got Fred. Yet we get to the company Fred. Does it Job gets promoted, yes, and while he was on the front lines, Fred realized, they don't always connect very well With the sea sweet So he knows that guttural disconnect radical freds. Now a manager freds elevated up, quickly from the supervisory role where he was just leaving a team, and now he's one level up, He's thinking and look, this bread is a good guy and we really to bring the attention to the sea suite of Hey. What's going on and What he's thinking has hit the best ways? It just be honest, which is kind of what you are applying it, they say this. What's going on you gotta come on. Tell you boss, you don't know. What's going on here, such a weird thing to talk about, because we as human beings at

Birth, we start to get told, tell the truth table Tell it to day divesting due to tell the truth. Tablets retaliatory, tell the truth, and you know what I actually one hundred percent support, telling the truth, but will continue. yes, the truth is important, How are you well? I should how you wield the hammer of truth matters, so maybe a couple of years ago, when I said, if you tell the truth and no one's listening, does it matter? So, let's think about that. If I am going, which I one hundred percent support, telling the truth, but I'm going to tell you the truth and you're not going to hear it or you're not going to listen to it. Did I really do a good job of telling the truth and No, so I hundred percent support telling the truth, and yet, if I can get my message across If the truth is not heard, I failed to tell the truth: I'm supposed the truth, if I don't get the message

cross- and you don't hear it- I have not told the truth- it hasn't across it hasn't been transmitted. If you, if, if you say something no one hears it. What good is it you didn't say anything If no one hears what you say, you didn't say it so the first thing. We cannot start talking about an and really he's he's looking for a way to convey this message, which is actually a really good thing, because he's asking this is what I think should do. How can we talk about this? So if your friends asking you pay yeah, they ve got yes, we're talking looking for a lower device, being a little bit of a role play of how to have that. How to have this conversation and I think more often than not one. When we work with clients we think about what But what to think about- and we also talk about what to say so part of it is the way you're thinking and in the other part of his literally how we interact and it's it's both of those things. Just like you were saying you might have this in

In your mind, that makes sense when an alert them to this problem will want to help solve this problem, but if the way you actually convey that, if your behaviour does not solve the problem, you are actually not solving the problem. so it's kind of a combination of both and, of course, Go to my arm. My go to manual we're talking leader strategy in tax and that one of the first things we're talking about us. His idea of what conform to influence, means and part of it is When you first join, this company decided the influences kind of natural it aren't you suggest just yet has developed exert the book is leadership charging tax. The tactic that you're talking about is some that is called conform to influence, meaning if you want it, the Florence, a group of people you have- he would some level conform to what they're doing because otherwise you're an outsider right and we don't have very much influence over groups that we are not a part of yes, we are conforming at some level in order to become a part of a group.

Or we can thereby influence. The group, yes- and I think that initially makes sense so Malaysia, obviously is is the Explanation of how you want to show up you understand. What's going on, you want to learn about the people. You want to see their problems, you one of figure out, what's going on and you also want them to see you that you are there, to be part of that team, which is what you the influence, but that philosophy, that that leadership tactic of conformed influence at you described is Just when you show up new, you can be part of a company A part of a team- and this happened to me in the marine corps all the time, if you could be the same, for years, and then you elevate and you talk about this leadership charges and taxes well as hey. What do you do when now you ve been elevated, who possessed the leadership. That philosophy still applies, the promotion to a higher rank or a higher position.

is now not the licence to stop being part of the team to stop conforming. So the first move from this supervisory role to this management role, which is a different role in the same organisation, one of the first things that we talk about is hate, recognise, does that role mean for you now and it doesn't. they want, like ok, cool I am now a manager. Now are doing things. The way I want to do them. I finally got to this place where I got promoted now I get to it my authority or get exert more influence in the way that I want there are still was idea of. That's all the same things, but now it's a different perspective is a different point of view from that higher position and I think the other connection there is, I wrote calm down of hey, there's another way to look at this problem. Is it may be that your executive leadership indeed does not know what's going on down

That may be the from, and they actually might even know this. That might be why you ve been promoted is to help them bridge that gap. part of his kind of figure out? What do you think what's going on at the c suite? Why aren't they down there to talk to hey they're super busy? There's an acquisition company that you can insert bunch of different things that are actually real, legitimate reasons. Why now does this mean the senior leadership should be down there? Not they should is often is again, but the idea that Now, I'm gonna get promoting, go hey, Jackal you're, my boss, here prime number one you're not getting down to the front lines nearly enough as you need to and that's a real problem, the organisation is very different, then It is an awesome all that I can be a because I can now bridge the gap in do a better job feeding. You information that critical and maybe helping you figure out when there time is too maybe hey boss, we're doing a meeting on four we're doing a big summary. This huge project untying the central unit, yet thirty minutes to come down and spend some time with the team and actually helping solve the problem by telling the truth.

we think of what you are saying, but in a way rashly thereafter, help solve this problem, with its leadership in the that's awesome, its awesome that these you you're doing a maneuver right. What's that you're doing a manoeuvre the end and what you To do if you're listening this year, maneuver might now look exactly like this. Where you are at your scenario, might not look exactly like this. I know you got promoted and now you've got it. True that you need to be, it might be, the other might be the reverse direction. Your team might have done something now you all a better just wait a minute. With it with the truth about what is theirs. numerous that you can make. it will make telling the truth actually effective. That's what we're talking about. I would also draw up this were actually actually comes from your phone line. This was

A variation of a question that we got that isn't totally different from some other questions: but how is the only if online we that the questions that people ask when weren't you ve online, so we need three is weak or are there for an hour, and we are there to answer people's questions for the most part and they will either in that chat box on. The virtual meeting order straight up ask a question in real time the questions they're asking real questions that they are dealing with and what's come. How bad is that, while unique, there's a ton of orb web meaning the questions they ask up people, a lot of the same questions? So this question was a question about someone, who's got a senior leader in the organization who they just don't like they don't they do not like they do not respect as leader, but this particular lead has a lot of influence or whether this person gets nor continues to move up in the organisation

question was kind of simply like hey and the tight, I personally cannot fake liking. Somebody I'm honest, which is why have connected the city like an honest person, hey an end is: is I just can't fake liking? This person- what I like about this is that double down this is a double down. On my personal virtues. Not only am I honest, which we all know is in highly elevated virtue that we all respect and admire. So not only am I honest, I am, I am also I I can the fake I'm doubling down my virtues are so awesome that I am on represent honest, and on top of that, I can't be faint, which puts me in this dilemma. this week in horrible dilemma. So the question was simply: was this question the guy that was like that act

specifically asked about. Shaking this person's hand, yeah. Ok, I guess remember the detail, someone saying you would you Are you the question which I think was actually directed? At least a similar question was directed right at me, sank. would you shake this guy's hand, and there is a little tree. That was trying to be set. For me, witches, hey, Jacko. We know you're honest, we know you, not a fake person and he set himself up get the answer he wants to hear was so dark. Would you shake this person's hand that you don't respect yeah, I mean that's. Basically, the question hate should I deal, should I have a relationship with the leader that I simply do not respect while the cool part about, as that The short answer is a very straightforward. You sure you absolutely should end larger pieces is. Is there are some

a couple of components of this that I was thinking about and- and I think, a lot comes out on the answers in real time, but some of it is worth thinking about because of how much I thinking about Lily just the idea of respect just the kind respect me respecting another person, so the first part It is alarming that situation is yet let's a year that boss, I just I just don't respect you. Do I'm making a waste my time, I'm gonna, keep it real like a fake. My way through this, with you, but I can't take a step back and our hang on drugs. A senior leading this organisation can here can can my relationship mortal my lack of relation hurt, my team? Yes, ok, I don't want that, can hurt me yes can hurt, I believe my tend to be successful. I can make a list a long list of all the reasons why, just That relationship alone creates a whole bunch for me and my people, which in the house Archy of authenticity, what is more important that you keep it real or there

your team is successful and all those people on your team are successful. So there's a lot of reasons. Why now the gaining this relationship is actually something you need to do is a leader, because this is what your team I urge you to do this is what they need you to do, because if you're not there. but real and somehow jockers. As I don't like this guy beef in the team that he's running Do we talked about? We even look to me. You know, there's a lot better Joe, cool guess who is now in charge of that team. So I lose my interest in you. There are so many stories that you have reference. You know from hack worth and so many others of why Need to maintain that relationship and, of course, there's a whole bunch of pieces in here that Two ego and we can talk about a lot of different things and they're all relevant, but the thing that I've been thinking about lately and they came from a conversation-

and I do hope you haven't you phone line or in the pot. Guess I don't remember the origin, but it's the way. I dont respect you. How do I actually cultivate respect and what bothers me is you don't respect me either? and the idea that, in order to gain respect, you have to give respect and we talk about it with respect. We talk about with. voting. We talk about with listening there, so many things that we talk about? Is what I actually have to do is look at you and think. Is there not? Is there is not one single attribute about unity? Women being, but I can't find a way to go, and we know what Jacko hasn't get it through some pretty crazy time to this company, the last fifteen years. If having a senior leadership position,

the concept of respect of how this idea of respect and influence and listening and on these key things that make us effective leaders how simple and because the Saint Andrew to reverse that go. If I want him respect me more in respect my position, what do I have to do? I have to find a way to respect him and if I you're not find. One single way to respect you there is, I exclude any possibility that you will actually do the same for me, which is obvious in one sense and then so counter to our our air nature of weight. If I want Jocund respect more what I'll have to do after spent, if I Jack Odin listener what I'm saying what allowed to do I'll have to start. I have to listen to him more, so we talk a little bit about in order to gain respect. What he actually had to do for this leader, respect him a little bit more or that listen him more or to be able to. Influence, this guy a little bit more, what he actually need to be able to do, which is,

the exact same things in the opposite direction, the quadrangle witches trust. Listening respect an influence now, there's a little thing: we're on your back, not against guard rails a little bit and I knew it's so as well. Talking about as ok, what's more important that I keep it real with this guy, would keep it real, like a Dave, respect able to keep it real, not given respect and keep him arms length, and let him kind of know that proceed. His attitude. what's more import that or to one You say about the team that that that you need to do protect the team do the mission right or did you said, said some words like that, but here's the deal you are you wanna keep it would you. You said something about the hierarchy right, there's a hierarchy, the hierarchy of

get real with the team. Is you said hierarchy of keeping real the boss are the hierarchy of Cuban really belong. Bosses is less important, then doing the mission and taking care of the team and what I was good added to that is keeping a real with the team like your tea, and here's where appears what goes on in this just makes it so obvious to me. I've got fifteen people. Have for me. I got eight people that work. For me. I've got twelve people that work for me. I got a hundred people that work for me, As a leader, those people are counting on me to take care of them to take it. I'm in a bunch of different ways that obviously that does mean carbon means I give them the gear that they need. That means aid given the support they need them. They get and the resources that they need? That means I I get. Plans imply that they can go execute that's what I'm doing that's my whole purpose so.

Words are to do that in order to do that. The highest purpose of me as a leader that the highest purpose of me as a leader is to take that team taken. of that team and get the mission accomplished. That is my highest purpose as a leader. There's an is anything more importantly, it is urgent. that's more important as a leader than taken care of your people, executing in accomplishing the mission that what a leader is doing. That's what a leader is doing foreign away, nothing else, matters by the next thing below that is pretty far down. In order to do that, to the maximum capacity that we can as a human right, to have a good relationship with a guy we work for so it complete We ve the mission of a leader to take care of the people and execute the mission that completely trumps. The fact that you have to eat a little bit a crow. And be humble entry, but somebody with respect it's not here

Freakin comparison, so that's what we need to do now. The other thing is again, that set up of like hey, I'm an honest person and I'm not fake, and therefore it is it is against my character. It is my character characters a human too. in a way: that's not real. It's the same boat right, Michael, there is a leader is aiming to take her my troops, but here's the other thing, I'm not being dishonest, I'm not being fake. You know what I am being being a winner. I am going to win. That's what I'm going to do. Yeah when I M and that phrase keeping it real, I should be careful that that is in quotes. That's the I don't like you.

and I'm going to keep it real, so you're going to know. How am I going to shake your hand? Boss like come on man like that, idea of keeping a real, as is the joke of I'm so honest. I can't help myself Battalion I don't respect you to the point that I will not shake your head. You can't shake your boss. Thank you for coming down, seem what's going on about what so yeah have to real. You made it harder for your team, you made it harder. complex the mission you may harder for them to get promoted. You hurt the overall prone liberty of the organization good job you kept it real and you have lessened, points he's not gonna with western are all those things go to strike out after striving after strike out, or I guess it's my turn so we use the phrase sometimes take the high ground of the high ground will take you.

Solid advice, solid advice, solid guidance, there's no replacing it right ones, Given the high ground you it's very, I should say: there's no replacing colic trust right once you. Bob Trust. its immediately gone now, can you build a back yet Can you can build a back over time, but you, if I bring your trust as a leader or as a subordinate. I go to zero right. I got if I really You trust I gotta zero ensure gradations of that, where I kind of let some slight a little bit in your trust goes down, but if I truly break trust. I gotta zero now have to rebuild it. If I give up the high ground, it's very similar sure, there's some radiations, but pretty much I'm gonna, have to go and get that that high ground back so we need to hang onto this high ground and we need to protect it end.

And yet it is so very tempting just get down from that high ground and good the mud and start slinging eighty so tempting to do that, and if you do that, you end up with mud ends. Lab on your feet and on your hands and it's not even because you got hit with mud. It's not because you in there and you started picking it up and now it's covering you, so don't do it. Do not do that. You gotta find something positive and here's a an ancient, I believe this is an ancient agency. If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it, I'm gonna one up that thing If you don't have anything to say, think of something good to say, fingers been good to say, that's going to allow you to stay on the high ground.

and this is where This is another thing we have to remember being on. The high ground is in many respects, it's almost like having rank. Because we are in the high ground, you have authority, you have a level of authority cause you're on the high ground. You're a position of power because you're on the high ground, and even if the person that you're dealing with. Is in the low ground, nor in the low ground, a hundred percent by your own choice for their there. therein, that low ground you're on the high ground when you're. Position just like rank, do not abuse that authority. Do not abuse that are free.

when it comes to rank like if we, if we look at rank the good leader, is gonna treat people respect all the times. I don't touch right. A good man. Treating people respect all the time? That's what they're doing it's the same thing here and if you come across, if you're on the high ground and you come across like you're, better we're superior or Europe cut above That means your arrogant now you're arrogant now. And you know why you come across as thinking you're better or you come across your actions come across as you're, better or superior. You know why that happens. Could you actually believe you are you think that, because you're on the high ground, yours, period, and that that is gonna come through. That smell was gonna come through. That tone is going to come through an

it comes through which it will. But guess what happens you surrender diagram You think, when you're on the high ground- and you think you are superior cause you're on the high ground- you are in the process of giving up the high ground and you are getting covered in mud incidents. And how do we have to avoid this? How do you prevent yourself from believing that you are superior Which is what we need to do. What what one thing that we all need to do is have perspective. is, is try again see the perspective of the other person you're dealing with theirs.

A correlation. I was thinking about what you jujitsu, indeed you really have to be careful with us. People lose the bubble on this all the time in Jujitsu,. You are not a better human being because you can tap someone else out. and I know that sounds crazy, but guess what it's not even just there you're, better human being you're, not even a better fighter you're, not even a better fighter. It's just that says that you ve tranquil It's just that you ve train more, you started earlier, you got the hours in you got the dot days in. You got the time on the mat and, if what those roles around and you gave

another person, ten down ten thousand hours of Jujitsu, and you only had a hundred you would freaking loose and they would tap you out. So when you are on the high ground- and you are looking down your nose at some one else. You need to recognise the need to recognise that that you could be there too, and don't be so arrogant to think that you could never be there, that you wouldn't be there don't get caught in the trap. It is it's it's a trap with a with a beautiful piece of,

on it. Then it's wrong. Don't abuse the power of the high ground on that same, give it up, but dont abuse. It stay humble. And instead of getting down in the mud, do your best to lift others out of it? I think it's probably a good place to start for today and if you want to dig deeper into all aspects of leadership in any arena. You can join Dave and me and the rest, the echelon front team at the of online dot com, where we solve problems through leadership, and if you want leadership, inside your organization. If you want to be these clients that we talk about and by the way, when we talk about clients, we promised the cat

we are talking about the stories we are telling. They are completely unrecognizable in the industry. In the personalities involved. We we treat our clients as top secret information, but if you want eat our help, you know national front dot com. And explore the options? There have also been a bunch of books on the subject of leadership. Extreme ownership, dichotomy of leadership, leadership, strategy and tactics got some other podcast as well. One is called Jacko Podcast. One is called Jacko unravelling and then we also have grounded and the warrior kid podcast, and if you want to support any of these parts, including this one. You can get some gear from Jacko Store, not com or from origin. Usa not come, and thanks for listening to the de brief now go lead when this Dave and Jacko out.