This is the Jacko Debris Forecast episode, twenty, we, they Burke and me Jack a wheel, and what we do on this part gases. We debrief. Some of the things that we see through our company echelon front, where we work with a wide variety of company. And we help them with their leadership. It also is from our online training platform. We have an online leadership during platform. Called extra ownership Academy, which, which is. Way God, Oh good, we're on there the time we do want to live interaction, so some of these are from Q and AIDS. We do a lot alive Cuneo on there and we get questions from clients from people that are members of extreme ownership academy. So some of this is from that and We also change the

details enough. So we're not breaking are our secrets. With our client serve your hearing. Us thing: why would want those guys talkin about we'll whenever he devices Gimme? Were you don't know who we're talking about? You change them enough that you don't know that no one, they don't even know. So that's why We D brief this originally started because David, I would have conversations about client we're working with and David Kind, brief me as what was happening. Our debris. Famine want ass, an hey, let's get echoed oppressed record and make this into something everybody can learn so very go. That's it we're doing today. Flats. Brief. What you got. Avoid asserting our authority on day. One and remember that leaders are are putting those positions of leadership not to drop a hammer tell people what to do but actually help your team when so the situation, just like you said, while working with a company and theirs

individual that I just started interacting with who is recently been promoted from individual contributor to a supervisor, so she's part company she at another location she works in a department that does some research, as has just been promoted, to become a supervisor of a research team and part of that. Motion is she's actually moving to a new location to work in any in the similar role, but now as a supervisor, other team, so she's in a individual contributor role, now she's becoming a supervisor, but at a differently asian inside the company, and so she doesn't know anybody on this team. Personally, she knows what they do cause it's a research teams to sort of familiar with the overall mission, but new location new place, all new people she's but the experience researcher and in our initial conversational watching explaining was. She knows this team that she's taking over isn't working,

right priorities and they are working on the right projects in she said she knows that she knows it I know what they are working on and is not the right things, and so when we talk to explain a red flag there and when that she also want them to know that she's experienced you got a lot of time in that research role and she knows what she's doing seek a pie put a second rate down there and do as she wants them to shift very quickly away from the research. Objects that aren't really useful for the company and to start working on the right there projects that she wants to get completed. So that's kind of the background of the situation of this newly promote supervisor about it, over this new team, and then your conversation was hey this. Going out of this new team how to introduce myself quickly to get them to work in the things that another nation they need to be working on, make sense so odyssey. We ve got some

You say that we want to resolve, because what we want, this new supervisor to use actually put herself in a position to be successful with this new team at this company and yeah listen as a supervisor. Could you should and they want to start telling your team. What to do you? Could you? You could do that and they might actually listened to you, but that's not a good plan and is certainly not a good point. In the long run, and so we talk a little bit about hey as the ass. If you show up and you're now the boss- and you start telling people what to do in telling you what they did wrong Well, they listen to you and the truth is that they might. They might at least at first, you might get some initial movement start to listen to you, but I asked for say: listen if you show one day, one and The first thing you do to introduce yourself is to tell your team you'll new team. I've got a ton of experience and research there working on the wrong things and you're going to fix what they ve been doing. How go over and she

left and other resources more she's an individual contribute and illustrate what if the new supervisory came about team, did that thing to you and analysing and heard event shoot quickly Inner said. Yes, that's that probably rules- reverse that will not go over all that well and then, it started to talk a little bit about two to solve. This thing is: what does she really trying to accomplish because in when we are How can I agree? You want your people working on the right things. You want them researching the right projects that makes them make the most impact, and if there are not working on those things you want to quickly as you can get them working on those right, but so the route there could be an issue that we want to solve, The question really is for hers. How is a new leader? How do you make that happen? I think the first. Perspective for her to think about what we talked about was the first thing she wants and make sure that she actually does understand. So it's one thing to be down at another: okay, is a totally different state by the way,

say I know what's going on out there. I know what they're doing, and I know what they're doing is wrong in its another thing: to go up there and actually get a little bit the land, a real estate is my perspective. From down there really correct so may The first thing is just figure out: what's going on, get up there and start to see, what progress are working on and, more importantly, why are they working on these projects? That, for Perspective appear to be the wrong things what's going on, and One of the things she could start to do a search. She gets up their introduce yourself and just started, and they do something daily and weekly meetings on the projects, the product status, up funding things like that. To get these projects going, she can just sit listen to what is going on and what she might be, there might be some things and actually make sense. They might be working on some projects that are good projects and the other thing she could figure out is How did they decide what projects to work on and if some does it make sense instead of telling hey this doesn't make sense? You shouldn't be doing this. You could do something. You talk

All the time issued ass. Numerous questions hate. How? How did you I come to this conclusion, he what, between these project? Since you pick one woman process, used to end up picking this over that one to figure out? Why are they making some of the decisions that she's making and by listening by paying attention the asking some questions she will probably have a better sense of going on, then what she thinks is happening from down there and truth is that she's probably find that she's wrong about a few things. Her perspective is asking to be right, and I mean overseas like? Is it possible that she's up and she's a hundred percent right yeah. You is it possible that she shows up she's a hundred sent right and this group been there for how long is completely focused on the wrong things done? What they're doing it is possible, but but it's definitely it's almost certainly not going to be one hundred percent. They might have a b a couple, he's off. They might have me ninety degrees off where they should be going.

A hundred and eighty degrees out. She walks in determines already what's going on. She knows the the reality she cannot demand their compliance heed. This is the way we're gonna do things these things going to do, and she elevates herself above her team and even wrote down. If you tell them the truth. About what is really going on with that team, the truth and quotes course exactly right. My true might yours, my truth and I'm here to impose on all these matters that are imposed on this. My treat that I'm about to smash you in the face with- and this is also my truth- that I am going to proved everyone here- that I am the superior being that wields. The truth is people like that very much, and the question was hey. What, if you do that? What will you be left with? What will you at the end of that and what you're gonna have is a bad relationship, even less trust you and have less respect,

and in the end, what you can have as less influence over your team, which has really what she wants. You wants to influence them in the right direction, which, if you have no influence as a leader, your teams unifil, but if she took a slightly different perspective and rather than by wielding the truth, she actually showed up and threw her leadership and something level. We just got through some oscillating perspective, seeing it from a different point of view, Sk in those earns questions if they actually come to the conclusion. Oh, you know what maybe this process isn't that right project, maybe the way we made this decision could actually be better and they come to that We the need to change. What do you have in this case? Now? You got a team that you call require almost no forced influence, and they're, not not only the on board with making the changes. You won't happen, they're. The ones initiating the change and

that minimum force to get the team to figure out for themselves doesn't just help them, but her because it gives her more influence over time. It increases that trust and so what we agreed upon was the internet when she introduces to hurt herself. Her team should be just that. Just an introduction, hey it's great to be here really ought to be in this new position are really ought to be. This time it was great moving up. I am really looking forward to getting to know all of you and what you all do. This are to look round start to listen. To ask those earnest questions and help and discover what needs to be done. That's the first big and knowledge into perspective. But the first big move that I think she needs to make where she does have this conversation pretty recently. So we would like to talk about the outcome in this. I would I would say this is a work in progress, another good thing, she's already how that initial conversation and, I think doing exact, was a good thing, but here here's wasn, think about this is that this is a. She's a young and relatively new leader and

she is excited Fired up, think about it. I was thinking about in one of my early leadership roles, us first leadership roles. Those have to go in seems so appealing than that vision. They talk of how many get up there and I'm in a direct, my team and point in that direction and end and what they need to be done and I'm gonna led my team. It looks so good, it looks so appealing, but it doesn't a strategic loser. It's a strategic loser act. So if you're in a new leadership, role, red leadership, charging tactics and remember pillars, one fifty seven one, fifty eight your job is to help the team not to tell them what to do so, she's on the right track and- and I think, we'll move in the right direction. This will be one. This is so so important and so shocking. It's so beautiful to see you know as soon as I say the word you know I know what I'm doing I know they're working on the wrong projects is actually funding is one of the things I want to talk about was

the opposite of that. The opposite of that and and looks on his eye on these, these debrief like us are gone deepened to stop. This isn't about deep is actually pretty under. This is, and this is the somethin totally pragmatic and it's a simple phrase as the opposite of I know and its real simple. It's the phrase is, I don't know, and I dont know. Is an incredibly powerful phrase and it's a phrase that it seems like it's gonna make you weak, it seems like it can, make you feeble. It's gonna seems like it's gonna make you inadequate. Any you're gonna feel weak and feeble and inadequate. But if you truly understated it's a powerful phrase that gives you import incredible power. That is the phrase I dont know it's a phrase that we can barely get out of our mouths, because our ego will hang on to that phrase. It doesn't want anyone to hear it. We we, we

want to admit that we don't know something we don't want a minute to ourselves. We don't want to say that I am not sure about that. We deftly dont, want to admit it to anybody else, so avoid saying we avoid saying I don't know and win you when I got the seal teams, you still had you didn't, have you tried? And yet you have your special warfare, penury, who buys you go to a team in Europe innovation, that you take an oil board and they tell you they say: and if you could ask something on oral board, you don't know. What do you say you say I don't know and if you do say that you look like ass and you're, probably gonna fail the freak and board what you say I dont know. I I know there's a manual that I can go research and find out I'll go back you the right answer, which is fine, but on see you always bore draftsman, diving and weapons and tactics and Arabs, more obsolete seal history, and if you don't know something what you do is you say I don't know when I say getting interviewed like doing interviews

Gaston reviews are even television interviews. I nervous, because I was totally ready, but I don't know the answer to that is solely ready to say that until there's no reason for me to be nervous because they could never ask me something, that's gonna make me look back as a worst case scenario. I'd say I don't know. So I don't know his humble I dont saying I don't know is open minded what you know. It's not humble saying I know you know reminding saying I know you know it doesn't invite other people's opinions? saying I know some of their say that like word, an argument, if you ever did, if you needed me- and I say I know what the right thing to do is we're not even having the customer having an argument cuz. I already know if you pretend you know and you think you're gonna funny, but anybody you're, not yes. I was just going to really can see right through your charade, a cannibal and being in a question, you asked me a question may not knowing and then what look like to you as I'm trying to answer the question, which is all

I'm doing is telling you I don't know. I can't imagine with that looks like from you how bad that looks bad every see three little charade so get comfortable, saying I don't know, get comfortable with saying I dont know. And down the chain of command when you're so I asked you a question and you don't know you say I don't know when your superior ass, your question, do you say, and you know you sat on a when you're peer, asked you a question, and you know so. I dont know that will open your mind, it'll open up their mind. It will make it made them realise at your humble enough that you're not gonna, try and pretend that you know everything and it is a bit of a superpower, because if you can admit that you don't know something, it allows you to then start trying to figure out what the right answers so try that a little bit instead of I know try, I don't check, Oh one last thing I want to say: occasionally you get it that is all jacked up

and if you are going to take over team, that's all jacked up. You are probably going to use a more direct method I took over between one time that opportune, commander had been fired and actually the platoon wasn't jacked up, a balloon commander was jacked up. I took over the two I did have to go in there and drop a hammer, but I went in a little bit harder than I normally would have, because you don't get a platoon tune. Commander fired for pursuing two good puts human functioning. Well, right there some problem. So I win a little bit more aggressively that I normally would have if I'll, just taken over opportune after a deployment. Oh, they come back here on the new boss, hey guys nice to meet you. I went a little bit harder than that and if it if it was a bad, petunia, wasn't about sums actually good platoon, but I had a bad leader if it was a. If it was a really bad pursued, the outcome and Therewithal with a little bit more aggression. Now I'm not gonna go in there with overwhelming firepower, make a bunch enemies. They want

what the hell's going on your, why their bad you know what's happening so even in those situations that you could do pretty good, going up leadership, strategy and tactics to page one hundred and fifty seven with one hundred and fifty and follow those rules the phrase men force required such a critical thing. That doesn't mean the same level of force. It's the minimum force that is required, and yet you sometimes in Iraq that up especially if there's a time, commitment or some other component that that's critical but the bias, is the least amount of force that you have to apply to your people, and case like this with this, but this leader and really in any role, even if it tire situation that really need some of your leadership right away. The best you could do, is actually figure out what it isn't. You need to work on first and y'all. Wouldn't know that for sure is to actually pay attention a little bit of look around what's going on, so you know where to apply that force yet Are we gonna side? We can talk about it, no, but I bunch these together by design because sometimes big problem.

Big issues and organisations do not get solved over overnight and you have to. The long game, especially when you're leading up the chain that can take some time So this is a situation that came from a client that came it we were empty exercise is not part of the world- programme. Are we go with companies and stay with a company over time we run and have programme. The J P leads where each company then maybe one or two people and will have thirty folks from twenty five different companies will come and spend a couple days with us and will say time with them, and this is enough. Ex client, you just what we with those empty excesses. We have this really advanced laser tag system. That's what it is at its. It's really cool. It's really advanced, and we have this advance these are taxes system, and so we teach kind of the basic tactics. But then we we have the the group go out and execute missions and we do and cool

locations where we ve got urban environments to to run around in and theirs There's a mission leader, theirs subordinate leadership we set up a quick chain of command that rotates through and you naturally, visions and you feel the pressure of what like to make a dynamic decisions in a changing environment very rapidly, and you know what it feels like when you do it well you learn what it feels like when it will you do it poorly and you these principles of leadership, We talk about all the time. When you go through the field, training exercise, you can feel them and they get ingrained into your head. So that's the F taxes so now, we are here the empty acts, as we get done with the with the integration of God to emission. We come back. We do debrief every time and wouldn't during the day, If we connect what you just did in a sense, lady combat environment

to how that relates to what how this, how this principle that you just say, on or that worked well for you, Howard. To your business or your life worth that's what they have to excess yeah animals, cool about that, as you may show up in an ear thirty people, you might know any of them. So your building relationships with really strangers out of the gate and very quickly application of principles. You see what works and what does it very quickly course. We deeply very one everyone you get that feedback, but times. This is the clients, first interaction with us professionally and a lot of times what we end up doing as we work with them after the or even lower. There will do debrief. We will spend some time after the attacks of tax it over and talking to clients about the past they're having an that's really where this came from was a client who came to the empty ex whether that hope I'm ok, I've got this. Regular issued, I'm really trying to solve at work and the decision and though we had here with his client, was he's a sales executive at a tech company and and his company

space in the? U S, but it's a company that actually owned by a larger company that headquarters in Europe that owns I companies. So his is one of several companies that has a European larger firm that owns them and the way it it is the incentive structure for the sales team at this company sometimes come its conflict, where the teams are pitted against each other, so skies at an american company, owned by a european company and the structure of company is design where the sales teams- and they call it. You know initial sales and recurring sales. They work again. Other, so there barriers here first initially got some cultural barriers, because you're dealing with the european company and insight We have one sales in this is to bring a new business and their incentivize to bring in new business exactly when you say cultural barriers, the whatever some of them. General barriers that you're talking about are you

hey we're different timezone. We have different you. We, because The point that I want to make is that there is no European leadership is not saying hey. We want to make less money hey. We want to have bad products, hey. We don't want to take care of our team, so the culture when you talk about the culture eats more like ok, Google, where the language barrier, sometimes that can make communication harder. Okay, that's that's something you we have time zone differences. Where do we also have like hey we're over here and we're kind of moving in this direction a little bit and they're over there and they wants to move in that direction? That's that's an alignment. Think I'm just trying to figure out. Are you talk? actual cultural, differences yeah, I think a better way to describe. It is how you communicate the issues inside of your company to that parent company would be different if it was your if it was just you and your company than it would be for a parent company that operates not just in a different time. Zones has deprived human,

getting in the way they expect that communication to go up and down the chain is a little bit differently and what we to remember. Is that Cultural difference can happen, we Milwaukee and New York City, but my point here is: sometimes people get wrapped around the cultural barriers and that the the line branch in Nebraska has a culture to it. And the headquarters, that's in California, has a culture to it. So I don't people to get wrapped around the point that hey it's a different culture, so the for that. This big bury it. We got that barrier exists everywhere, there's a cultural but you go to a seal platoon and there's a culture the culture and each year opportunist different. This one super professional, this one's a bunch of while people this one doesn't want to work very much. This one is wants work all time, there's a culture difference between that? That is in each one of these organizations. I just want people

get wrapped up around the fact that, well, you know my boss is from here up or my boss is from South America or my boss is from Canada cuz you can have just as much of a cultural difference between, like I said, New York, City and Milwaukee, and what you have to do- is use good leadership to overcome those cultural barriers, whether there from a different continent or whether that from a different county I like that and that as we kind of finnish the description, the situation it drives us back to this is a leadership problem. More than anything, this is a leadership problem and even inside the way, the sale structures, design and that design was sort of. In place based on how this team was restructured this this new leader in this role with us in the sales role he's gotta too,

that goes out and try to bring a new business which makes perfect sense. He also as a team that designed to once the business there to try to retain and keep that recurring business the prom they can always service just so many, so these teams are sort of fighting against each other, meaning that all new business we lose current business, and that would stop that the company will struggle over time and if we had all for current business and no new business again, the companies can a struggle over time. So what question really is here. We have a win. Lose scenario here will really want to try to create is make some changes. So this becomes a win win scenario for the team, but he asked now the latitude it just do what he wants. You can just change cop structural change, the organization he has to court, coordinate and led up the chain. It happens to be a think, your point, a european company, but he has led up the chain whether that upstairs is really upstairs in your own office or in another continent, to your point, so the situation is. How do we do that end,

we are talking about the solution. This is kind of a cool setting pursues out. It was kind of it out in any They public form is after the overall debray through some people sitting. Our talk about this is the thing you gotta do is actually collecting data and get some facts at eighty figure out. What is really going on you when you say hey, you know this: new sales team is incentivize and if they bring in too many clients, it hurts you other team. We need to quantify what that means, because if you just look at it like that things like well, why Is that bad to have to bring a new sale. So you have to get some facts, to support the goal, which is research during these sales teams and restructuring the incentives which is going to change the way that the company is organised and having the facts and the data collected that also by itself, is it gonna be the solution as well as at the end of the problem. So so the facts by themselves. Don't aren't enough. We explain how these competing interests hurt the company and you,

to understand what it is that the company Friday too wise? It even set up like that, because inside the way it set up, another might actually be some real good reasons why it set up like us why you have recurring sales. Why have new sales? If you can understand what the competing interests are understand? What about them, show that you're actually trying to help the team. You might get a little bit of trust from maybe weather buried her ears with other organization recognizes you're, actually there to try to help them and help the team and by looking for things that work working thing or look for things, you're curling doing that are there things. You might be a bridge that gap by show them some of the areas where you want to change. You be able to understand why it so in the current format and then how you need to make changes over time to make the company be successful. Process. Unfortunately may take some time.

And part of it. If you really freshly kind of saw it as a certain way should be judged, it should be like this, and we should make the change immediately and part of what you're discuss, hate this isn't gonna, be an immediate change. You're not gonna, be To just have the outcome What, by saying hey boss. Look at this! This is wrong this wrong. These are the changes and we want to do that. So Key takeaway was you're, gonna have to play a strong. Got to be patient and I think the peace that fit into one. We typically talk about what the outcomes gonna be again. This is one that doesn't have the combat set in stone is one of the best things that this person can do. Is make sure his boss, whose really kind of a conduit between his organization and the parent Organization Anderson what's going on and why and you have his support as well, because we're not there to tell our parents but everything there doing wrong rashly their turn. And be successful and if you can get you Leadership, understand hey boss, I'm noticing some underperformance over here I want to say,

no time China digging into maybe a better way to do this. Are you good We do in a little bit more work things out our operating here, maybe suggesting a couple change that we might be able to make to get more efficient. If you please, advocacy up the chain. You actually get a little more influence over time, so this is again, I think, leading up to it. And when you think strategically, it often takes longer than you wanted to take, but you have to not just get the information get the data. To build a relationship up the chain, so they're gonna, listen the things you have to say when you want I guess to listen to you know. That I took, or you were talking in explaining this thing's was, while the only thing that I had information warfare, because that's what this is. I had knowledge. Because you got to have you to understand what actually happening, I had relationships. The only thing that I had did. I thought you meant but you didn't say the word was performance like if your crushing people listen to you

that's part of your relationship building if you perform. If my sales team is DE rushing and doing all, It's a great sales. Then, when I speak up my this instrument. And if I say well- and I even tell that to my team- hey guys if we don't like the way- these incentives are right. Now guess what in order to get a asian ship or I can have some influence we need to crush of, and I know the incentives are the way we want to be, but if we're gonna get him changed, we got our perform to earn the right to make some changes yet that polish should have been the first thing, because when we talk about being influence on organization, usually one best things you can do and the forcing you to do your job really really. Do your job really really well, hey, even when you get told to do something that may be doesn't make much sense, kilometers dominated that is going to do unbelievable eager job so that where my boss will listen to me, that's a good plan and and these things, like you said they take time, but there is no way that this information is correct, which

There could be some things that we don't know about. There could be some things that the EU a jewel on the individual. I want to change. The commission makes it he has no about. He did that there's no way that I, as a ceo or a chief sales officer or chief revenue officer, I'm going to say. Oh I've got these people and their taking their taking business from each other right. That's that's that's, not that's not what I'm gonna want. Oh, if I have a system set up where we have no recurring revenue, I'm I'm gonna change it. If I have a system set up where I have no new revenue, I'm gonna change it. So you get after capture that information you have extra everyone understands it. You have to make sure you understand why it's like that and then We would be able to make some ma some adjustments They also, I want no matter so I am actually a little nervous about warm about

and the reason I'm nervous about it is because I have been fighting a fight for a long time for a long time. I have been. Hiding a fight- and I believe I sought to make some progress in this fight with people. And I'm sorry to hear people to use it and say it back to me in this idea is the idea of getting people to utilise the indirect approach in the world and what they're doing. And I ve talked about it. A bunch on extreme ownership academy. We you and I did Three, I think three freakin broadcasts about about each little heart strategy. The indirect approach. I wrote out in leadership strategy in tax field, meadow, and you know

fact that talking about our its remorse recounted talked about the fact that stabbing some of the sphere of truth doesn't help your case. Bludgeoning, someone with the battle axe of your superior idea doesn't convinced, and that's the best idea waiting to people that there's no food that taste good when its forced down your throat all, payments are true and what you do Not do those things. Is you take the indirect approach and the indirect approach is the most powerful way to move things forward and that's true. He is Annie it's hard for people to understand that any even when we start to release those podcast, there's people had argue against it for a million different reasons that its

less efficient rider after uses. Indra has just go straight out towards the sea, felicity indirect. Is that you're not telling the truth about what's happening? If you have a good relationship, you'll need to do this, so there's a million little reasons and I've green gone back and explained why it's not the deceitful unexplained white actually ends up being more efficient. Wainwright, encourages trust and be its little heart does the same thing, but about people want immediate gratification. And guess what the closest isn't between two pointed straight line and especially to be direct and is ignorant. I'm not, but that's what everybody tends towards on the surface, because on the surface is true. On the surface you straight signed between did closest distance between two points: to streamline that's what I'm gonna do so that

people do that's why everyone has this natural instinct is natural instinct to always use the direct approach and I've been trying we ve been trying to get people to fight natural instinct of using the direct approach and try and use the indirect approach. Always almost always and this is why I'm scared even say this. It's always almost always. You see there's times there are times where the direct approach is more effective. There are times when you gonna do a frontal there are times we gonna kick in the front door there's times, you confront a subordinate or confront appear or confront a leader directly. There are times like that

to even say this, because ninety nine percent of people, like all coolly outright that they forgot jocose earth, is now I can do, go direct. But it's not it's you you're in the wrong spot right now to doing he's. So where that you should need to do this. It's almost, never that you need to do this, it's almost never that unit go direct, but there are sometimes that's you do have to go direct, and what interesting about this is. It Is almost always going to be in conjunction with a series of indirect approaches and the failure of the indirect approach to work or the indirect approach softening defences to a point where the direct approach works almost immediately. Works tremendously. So we have a target working to attack and we ve been doing reconnaissance and we ve been gathering in tell

conducted? Aerial fly overs and we ve gathered Signal intelligence, but we can confirm if the bad guy we're lookin for is there. We ve done all these indirect method. So you know we do at a certain point: you're, ok, we're in its act when attack that target I've set up a move for jujitsu and home. Do a little bathing and on pretending that I'm tired and wanting them to take something one than to make this move, and I can't get the result. I want, I guess, what the the opponent thinks I'm being defensive, and man, I'm tired and I'm and then also book. I dive Wanna Guillotine direct attack on through direct back while it was after a series of indirect tax. But then it's I'm going for the freak and gaiety. I'm in a meeting and I'm listening, and maybe I ask a couple of questions and I listened more people. The team is

used or their arguing or your stalemated, and have asked questions already enough listened. But there is no progress being and and finally, eyeless, not here's what we're gonna do. You probably heard we do that before right. You ve heard me do that. I have where it's like. Oh there's, a lot of conversation happening and I've been indirect. Before five different approaches, and then it's like Everyone, everyone listen up. This is what we're gonna. Do you see you I have not a lot, but I have seen you do that. Absolutely I've ended. Bates and discussions with a direct statement, not no more questions, no more debate, no more empowering and waiting for to do a lot to say, but, but so so there are times when the direct attack is now. If you want to get your new, destroying our put negating on someone there

We therefore know what you're doing you're not gonna, get it you're, not gonna get snuck in a word, if you go into a meeting And you say this: what we're gonna do, just like the the woman that use I've been in the past probably excited refuge acoustic used it rector Portugal, right in their interpreter, focusing on the wrong thing. No, no and no that's what I'm so nervous about saying this: nervous about things cuz. It takes judgment that it takes fighting the tendencies that we all have as human beings to go direct because we have to do. Is we have to save that direct attack until the moment that it's actually going to work and end in, in all hope that you never have to do it? In all hope, you don't have to use the direct attack in this comes back to having an open, mind and open mind.

That you can use the right tool at the right time, because if you say you know, I'm never gonna use the direct attack. I promise you there's gonna, be situation that occur, that you have to be direct, but It's so rare it really and truly is so rare. It's so rare that the indirect approaches is completely ineffective. It can happen like perhaps or someone that's defending that their indirect approach there someone that knows that you're looking for that guillotine they that surprises common. They then that you're setting it up and they don't fall for so there are sometimes where you're gonna need to go direct when you do speeds price. Violence of action, which is a being from the seal teams, which is how you went into firefight speed. Surprise and violence of action. I

Surprise, a little but indirect but wants, is on its own surprise and violence of action that Dave, when you see me, say a statement at the end of a meeting. That concludes the meeting with a way forward. That is what it is. The statement that are making I've already thought it's already. It's already inescapable. I've already thought, I thought of all the options have been listened to everyone. I see that worded in a. We're not moving forward? Ok, speed, surprise, violence, everyone's like. Oh damn. That makes sense. That's what we're doing. And as soon as you ve done, that assumes you ve gone direct, which I advise against on these eyebrows began. I advise against it as soon you go direct. Then you immediately go back to the most effective and efficient way of winning, which is the indirect approach or effective. There is a small part of me: the man we're

so much progress has been made on the internet. Much progress has been made and as like, hey. If your hearing this new saying, ok, I know there's a time for the for the direct support. Then you can convince yourself that this is the time. Just like your saying it's not an end. Maybe away to think that is a if I have to use the direct approach. All these other things haven't worked as opposed to get I'm just gonna, use the direct approach, put clearly What you are saying is right, because we even talk about we, you I think you coined the phrase. The hammer of truth will listen there I have to use a hammer when building a house or working like that is sometimes the right to, but for me what it has been. The recognition. Is that the time that I think that's the right tool is far less common, then I originally thought and if you can keep that in mind, Yes, yes, yes, there is a time to use a hammer man. The number of times a picket hammer up is much much more than you think it is twice a year

Yeah it's twice a year, maybe the times. Heard you describe, I so sad that I've surface like Don T I got it. Right is the one time this is it whenever someone says Miriam thing about using the direct approach. I am like. Oh, I know it's wrong. I know it's wrong. I've had. Somebody were upset, you know what you need to just go director. Haven't had even said that. Does anybody, I think in mind your time, as a leader of never said. You know what I think you need to do. I think you just need to go. Direct just go the far direct, what's via farming, visual, frightful flight rules nobody's now you just do whatever you want. You like, I'm going back to this point with no other. No, there what's from anybody S, so we used to do that is to say that it would be a far Darius meeting

Look, I'm a walk down a deal's off somewhere down. What's what goes right, you're far directed Dave, I'm not routing the supply chain and getting other people's ideas are getting sensible, I'm going directly to date, and I don't care what he's thinking ominous home, what I'm thinking totally well in Europe Hence few times. Are you described to me in your career that you took the direct approach? that story has always been preface my all the things that you did, that didn't that didn't get to the outcome and ninety nine percent of the time, those other things get the outcome. So when you said twice here, I think for you, it's probably even less, but even those stories that you ve told me are always The combination of a whole bunch of other indirect things that, for whatever reason, in that case hey, I had two and there's a time comply This other other factors there so as long as me, and everybody else or hearing the indirect approach. Almost always the right answer, the reality is it in, and I understand us there

at the hammer is the right to the hardly ever. We started the escalation of counselling and you know how you start I just said: hey, what's going on, I knew I hardly ever make it pass like phase two maybe phase three where I'm like Dude Union Square software? Occasionally, I probably Three times in my life, maybe more now but Don't do that a lot because, most times people of damp, I'm screwing up quite got it, and then they had just is scary, to tell people I can almost you're thinking that you ve got a moment. Your life or you're probably should needs time to go direct. It's not it's. Not it's! Not ten set you back the most efficient at the most efficient and the most effective way to win is through the indirect approach. If you don't believe us look at history, if you don't believe us go and think about how you respond to them

direct approach, its the same mental jujitsu that you did on the one with the woman you opened up with you said: hey. What would you think if you were frontline researcher and the new I came in and said, hey you. I have been focused on the wrong thing, I'm very experience, and I know what I'm doing, and this is what we are going to change starting today. How do you play that game? Put the direct, approach on yourself and see what it feels like. I can bout guarantee, it doesn't feel right and if there is a small chance it you said yourself, you know what I do think that I do think that feels right, you're lying to yourself, you're lying to yourself, so be careful, don't say you weren't warned dont use. Did it don't use the direct approach, One more thing I say about this Davis, this all comes back to when you and I talked about the Buddha Loop and then

the extreme ownership, leadership and, and what this comes down to. Is you kick it stuck mentally Anything and you always have to be open minded enough to say. Oh, you know what I've talked to date. Forty seven times about how to get this thing right and he's not making a change I need to. I need to be more direct with him right now. I need to go directly. I need to talk to him or would have a major problem with his client or whatever the case may be, you. To have your mind open enough to do that. The problem but we are programmed as Hugh. As I said that oh I wanna go, direct direct is the is this is the closest distance but You put a path of least resistance mentally. If the past of most resistant, you're gonna, get from other people. That's what makes your heart, we think is the best least resistance. Everyone else is the path of most resistance, but there are times where you need to say no. Actually, I did that

God. If I was president speech that was another eggs here was a situation where there all these indirect approaches had been made. Hey one do. This is what we do the same. Pull out there, not working Things are going wrong. We don't know happening with the enemy and it's like. Oh, you know what here's the direct approach. This is what about to happen this, what we're gonna do and why did that get alot attraction beak ass. It was outside the right of the intellectual, Which was not working, it was not working we we'll get no movement from the enemy they weren't doing. They weren't they weren't doing what we needed to do which began doesn't do what you need them to do because they want to they do it because you make them if you can get them to do because they want to great that's the indirect approach. Are we made a move over here and then they went.

Look at another Eve airfield cause, that's where they thought we were gonna leave from. If we were said: hey we're leaving from Kabul. And then, all of a sudden we secure, Remember forces airport that everyone short their hate that would have worked We tried this. Oh well, you Leslie, it's like the indirect attitude had failed, and at that point you say, oh here's. What about? happen and everyone that saw the most people thought I bet yeah. That's what we want to you right now. At the end of a twenty year war. I said what I mean so that, though occasions where that kind of thing occurs and the indirect approach has not worked or it is failing. There are occasional times where you have to go direct Please use them sparingly most of the time it is wrong. Painting elsewhere,

not good places stop if you want to dig deeper in all these aspects of leadership in any Rina, you can. Join Dave and me at the extreme ownership, dot com, extreme ownership, dot com. It is our online training academy. Where we solve problems through leadership. She won't leadership it's inside your organization, you can check out early. Consultancy, irrational front door. Com was written, a bunch of books on this leadership extreme ownership, the dichotomy, leadership, leadership, charging tactics caught some other podcast Jocapa Gaston. When raffling grounded were your kid broadcast. If you want to support Any of these park ass, including this one. You can get some supplements from

for fuel dot com, you get some gear from Jacko Store, dot com or from origin, USA, dot com. Thank you for listening to us, Debrief now go out and with the minimum force required and in an indirect manner, led the Jacko and Dave out.