Does the Jackal Debrief Podcast episode twenty two with day Burke and me Jacko, willing. Dave what's happened and we have a leadership consultant company and what we do is we work on the budget for companies and Dave, and I and the rest, the team at Essen front. Sometimes we discussed the leadership challenges that we see debrief them away point David, I said hey. Would it be good if we share these debrief with other people, so they can learn what we're learning and so that's what this pond cast is so Dave. Let's Debray forty got when your boss calls you out in public, biggest issue is actually not the boss. It's your ego and how you react to that. So here's the situation, working with a company, I'm talking to a sales manager and he's frustrated about this companies work from home policy that there are about to act as a response to code. So, as you might guessing, as you all know, a want of companies are dealing with this issue.

covert kicks off a lot of people working remotely working from home The thing and now our finding the right way to bring people back to work how do we get people back to the office to its Margaret saved with the right way, the sales manager had built in brief, the plan is boss. The CFO, whose workin, for how are going to execute this return to work plan send it be. The new work from home policy and he thought he was all good to Go- in brief, the CFO by three or four days later he brings his entire team on the zoom call ceos there. He starts briefing as part of this meeting the new work. policy in the CFO says: hey this plan, isn't gonna work, so the back from him is it goes hey. He did this in front of my whole team after he helped me build and sign off on the plant totally caught this guy guard and up until now. The sea opposing five of the plan and now he's against at the last minute, and he didn't from his whole team. So as you

guess this manager on working with directly, is these pretty fired up he's a fresh, that these matters, a sea of bow I understand what is coming from and his question is: how do I fix this rattle? I solve this and it's mostly like fresh nation, with a simple for having done that he'd make he made me, look bad and he Baxter me because he said he would go to the plan. So that's a situation disguise it we're talking about ways to solve this problem and probably wasn't little satisfying answered that he got for me, which is, hey! This is about the CFO. This is about. You and so how do you solve this? Well, the first thing got to do is figure out a take ownership, this and you'll set to protect your team. I want to talk about that for just a minute. I think the first question to ask is hey if this if that doesn't like your plan, this plan that you breathe If you got a problem with it, how do you can, I say this is actually your fault and if your ego,

get out of control in your frustrating you're pissed off in your blaming the CFO? It's gotta be almost impossible to do that. So so we talk a little bit about this. If, though, he wanted to see if a one for the company Where's goes waters objectives. What what is he really want and see if it wants to make money? He wants us to do well, he wants attained to be a success, We won't stay out to go up and wants revenue Christmas Eve who actually wants us to win. He does and who doesn't see. If I answered you, he works directly for the ceo. He works directly for the person in this case that is in charge. Any idea what the sea eel once he wants all the same things he was. just to be successful so insight, that that recognition. expression as you are, So how do we win here at home? can he protects team, take care of esteem and be successful. So I'll make it kind of binary there's a lot of new what's inside there, but the bottom line is assaulting the seals likes to work from home Do it out of out of necessity,

city last year, but is actually present. We'll Mary, like where pajama items until noon now we're negative and analysing they actually have learned how to do what they thought couldn't be on remotely for first in the learning how to do there actually they're pretty good at it. So it's not! stop beyond understanding that they like this and they're working it working it away that actually still work out. I was going to say the performance metrics can be either the or they can go up yet because now, all of a sudden, I could do a call at six clock in the morning you because I can just jump on there and I don't have to drive a new commute nor this stuff and boom told him. I can talk more clients, everyday consumer spending on our house into my car and a more flexible. I could do a night call this other person, because I'm in my office, because my office is my house, so there's somebody reason, so we can keep the stuff go a little bit totally, and why is that I'm gonna be binary that the sales him likes work from home and the see yo see if all they want people back in the office.

An insider there's, all those things you said, there's legitimacy, to both of those sides and all the things that sit inside the middle there. And that's really. that's really sort of the crux of this is to figure out. How do we do this the right way so dont you sit, although over here enemies tomorrow or although of years. He will never come back to work. There is an answer inside there and the answer is actually what's best for the team and what's best for the climate, but for the company, and so how do we get? How do we go to what's best and the path he was heading down was he's, out of the CFO, so his reaction is he's. Gonna pushed back you me, look bad and he's gonna gonna go. On the attack to the CFO for what he did and what's going to happen if I go on the attack, if you were my boss- and you said hey, I don't like your plan anymore than I pushed back against. You would probably end up happening. Is you're not going to go to warn you not going to fight and the outcome of that how long it takes is very likely that you are going to win

I'm one of six ales managers and you're the CFO, so we're all day long and give you all the reasons why I was writing. You were wrong and remind The backside me or I can text back in, I hang on the three four days from the time that I brief due to the time that we did this thing. What what happened you and talk to the Boston? I come back and follow up. If you did, I pressed meeting. I ask if there's any changes it I ask of you: have it any additional implicit? I do hope are two things I could have done to make sure that we are still line and Did I really understand the strategic picture because what really needs to happen is actually a balance aside. There we can't I'll come back tomorrow, and we cannot sit around and our pajamas for the rest of our lives, working from home? We to do it actually is best, and so, if you take the approach of hang on a second c4 got some reasons. There must be something going on that. I miss some real reason that the sea, if I was driving this and if I can t, take a step back and get. And the bigger picture. What I'm gonna get is rather than a war with you what I mean

yet assuming I actually have a good relationship which he does not want to get a compromise a solution and incremental solution that I can start from the start to move which is I can stand the reasons why the boss wants us to come back. I and instead of saying I wrote it goes back right away. You hate every tool, Thirdly, we have all hands company meetings. We want to do that for For these reasons, visa things went to get done and maybe- Two days a week, I can start to bring my team back or five days a month or whatever might be and I can also tell my boss exactly you said: hey Boss, some of the benefits from working from home and and and extending some of those things is. We ve got caught its international, we got clients on EAST coast time. We got some ways to do this from home every bit as effective and what I'll get is. I'll understand the ceos and ten hours in the sea oppose it and get them to understand my intent and I'll find something that work for everybody, and we can start to get to a solution that overtime done. Incrementally we have to get to where we need to be

this was less about exactly what the right solution was. Aid has to be this at this interval this time. The answer was: how do we get to a place where I can take care of my team take care of the company, and I don't do that by being mad at you for cutting me off and changing the plan? The last minute, I get that by saying our I miss something I didn't send a strategic picture: hey boss. How can I better understand what you need and how this plan? Look for you, so I can start to move forward to get what you want. to get what we want, so we can all be successful, so we can get that compromise, I just wrote down my first network but Dave because we dear that all time, but Jacko, but dark but day by day, but do you know well when you as soon as you say, hey, listen, you need to tackle for this year, CFO, they did what they did, but you need take ownership in there, but Dave

The guy undermine me in front of her, I already given the brief but Dave I already Yuri signed off on it, but Dave. He helped me put it together, but this is in front of all my people, there's just by day by day by day, but if that's what it is all day long, it's like you were there. So, So this idea of of hay The resistance to taking ownership is to say I get it Dave, I'm supposed to do ownership, blah blah blah but Dave here's the real deal, so the Botz don't work, they don't work. The only thing you can do is take ownership what's happening and make adjustments, and that's when you do what you talked about. Here's a lit a little bit a tactical discussion here. What you do. What do you do when Jacko the sales leader is talking? my team Dave. The CFO is on the call- and I already went over the plan with Dave, and he

prove the plant health. We come up with a plan and then I'm on the tea on the call, talking to my team and Dave Cuts, often says I actually joggled. This plan isn't going to work one do what do I say? What do I say? Do I get defensive he waited but Dave we already discussed this device but Dave already showed you do you do that and do you git defensive order? You open your mind up and do you say? a Dave. I think there's problem perspective that you ve seen since we last talk. You know what we we just call this meeting. For now. I'm gonna come down, I'm beginning to call with you and Let me, let me understand your perspective, so we can. We can get unified on this, because you know what my team were flexible. We're here to win So, if you got some insight, I'm ready operating the plan, now does the team thing

oh Jack, or just folded like a little baby. Now they don't think that. And as a matter of fact, we might we might when Jack was as you Dave you are you ready to discuss this issue, team members MIKE Chuckle, shot up? That's the boss mantle when antagonistic relationship with a loss for you The game and get us some winds over here before we're coming into work seven days a week at six, in the morning. Joy, the clock- and I wouldn't want to do that- we want to work from home, old relationship Jacko. So when I say hey Dave, there's, probably think to come up in the last few days. You know what a woman, no adjustments? The plan right now, lets you when I get on a call. Let me learn what you learned and unless come up with an almost alternate plant and you go hey sounds good. Jacko

and then we sit down. We come up with an alternative alternate plan. Humility is a respected trade. It is a respected trait. It's not a disrespected trade when you get defensive and you're scared and you and you are protecting your ego. People can see that that's what looks like that, smells like, so don't let that happen. Yeah big people get in this idea like protecting. I t means drawing a line in the sand and not tolerating anybody encroaching over that line when the exact opposite is true, when you described is hey. If I pushed back not if I actually push back to hoard guess what what can happen to me David. I can be the sales manager anymore and then what happens if the team then so I wrote out four things that had taken ownership self, so many problems. And then the next thing I wrote down was checking the ego helps to her. You know sometimes when I go down these types of discussions and eyesight

we know what to say. Like hey Dave, you you see something that I dont see Dave Use. Obviously you see something around see out, do your office in, and And get on and me in an all how receive your new ultimate plan and people think oh yeah so what you're saying jocose go kiss ass you? no I'm not saying go kiss ass for my relationship with my boss They actually do us and we want to do this because I listen to them. So kissing ass. What I'm doing is winning, because Best thing that you can do to protect. Your team is having an awesome relationship with your boss, That's the best way you can quote protect your team, that's the best, you can take our your team. Is you have an off relationship with your boss, so may that your priority that actually but the little work from home plan, so there you yeah, I like it and the outcome of that was. You know it was a good outcome,

because those things you just described is actually what happened. The western here for him is how you scrubbed. Is that conversation hey boss? I guess I think I'm miss something here: let's sit down and talk through sort of better understand some of those gaps, some the that you have the ice the situation is that I have to come to your hey boss. I'm sorry! I blew up John and zoom meeting and got mad the ideal way for me to be of attack detached right away right when I d go source of flare up, and I can do it in real time ago: hey, hey, let's, let's call it the complete this. For now, I'm going a figure that out so an article I days later go hey sorry, I lost my temper. Sorry, I got mad at you. I'm sorry. I said those things that I said, I'm sorry didn't answer emails for two days. He lets work this out. the ability to do what you described in real time that detachment we talk, but all the time, that's one that needs to happen or on the right track. They do have a good relationship and it at the sea or wasn't sitting on this or a thing scenario: he just wanted to accelerate bringing people back for obvious reasons and we'll get, that place? This is not going to issue, but that he go

get in the way so or on the right track. That would, I think, be fine. What are your next. This is a tough one, good leadership outlasts the leader and in this particular situation- and this is probably one time where I actually talk to the company about discussing this in sort of explicit detail as a company will work with or the ceo of this company passed away and we know us and they know we know them, and they know us. We have a very, very good relationship, so. This was a sea relatively young guy, the heart and soul, heart and soul. This company, in about three years ago in echelon, front red, extreme ownership, petty huge impact in his personal professional life and in to delay massive organizational change by which being technically good at your job. It isn't but he realized in this text

from this engineering farm. They need to be good. Leaders as well can made a massive pivot and massive investment in extreme ownership. And the idea that the EU is gonna, build leaders and company was making huge strides massive growth, but we were very successful in it the Clyde PATH was so good that, out of nowhere on a weekend. He died totally unexpected. Just We cannot allow Yoda, nobody saw it coming. It was a shock to them not for us a shock for me, I got to know him really well with him for a couple years. and so that was the situation was, is totally unexpected situation and the worst possible case situation in a hidden retire early. He didn't move, he he died and the, question that we are getting a sort of the bay what he described as what do we do now, and

they reach out to us and they leaned on us. For that- and I thought about how best to talk about this, because this of this hurt me too. I knew him well and I what about the things that we teach and I thought about how we some of what they mean and I thought about where they matter the most, and this is something that obviously you gonna lie, experience with in the military and earn our time with and I want to talk about that too, but talking to the other folks on the team. As this is what we, when what we teach matters the most I started. Thinking about the laws of combat, I thought about a thought about cover move The first thing we teach cover move and what that's about more. Anything is about relationships, is about trust and how now, more than ever, the relationship they have with each other matter, the most how they're gonna need lean on each other and support each other and be supported by each other. How that will matter more now than it has ever matter before this, those relations they ve built and how important they're going to be a thought about the second law simple and how inside

That concept is community, sitting in a way that we make sure people understand and how that was more important now than ever its major people Understood what we needed to do during this totally awful situation dogma does next, you do. We use the word detachment all the time and were typical talking about. We want to be defined frustration, hatch from emotional, detached from our egos and net have they d been in a situation where there, this emotional and how, goal is for us to be detached when people can have the hardest time detaching, because this situation had anticipated how this is more important now than ever and then that coordination of all that of decentralized command, which, as it were, the way we talk about it is everybody's, a leader in how we push decision down but often times we talk about that in the context of Hay David, the boy he's going on vacation or pay our own power. My people cuz they're, in a better position to solve problems so they're closer to it says they should be able to lead, but our

talking about David, the CEO Dave's gone, they ve gone, and if I and created and cultivated this idea of decentralized command and my people are so reliant on me that, in my absence they can not executed, cannot perform. The team fails and the team loses so implementing decentralized comment, has so much more meaning now that has ever met before, because this leader. The ceo he's not coming back. I thought about dichotomy, and we talk about you. Even what dyke We met and we always talk about balancing these opposing forces and now we're talking about how much do we reverses? How much do we work and if we, and all of our time grieving edit this loss and we dont work anymore. What what happens to us? What happens when a company, what happens working, what happens to our families then, if all we do, is take it back to work, and we don't acknowledge that and spend time and thinking about having taking care of the family and grieving and doing those things. what is going to be like to replace the CEO

still living in the spirit of what this former CEO wanted and letting the new person in charge be, who they are and what the balances like inside there and so it was amazing about this- is that inside all the things we teach, and so often its taught in this practical sense about particular situations they stood that they actually had all the tools and all the known all the understanding and all the ability to get through a situation that they didn't expect. They didn't foresee and they didn't really plan for they want thinking in these terms But now that it's happened, they actually know what to do. They know what to do- and this is a hard thing because so much emotion involved, but this is it for me that, I think, is a position that had this happened two years ago. I think it would have been really really difficult for men to be successful, and now there are showing a place where there are going there actually going to be successful. Because what the ceo did because the path he set them down on it, because

what they were able to accomplish, while he is still with us that they are actually to be successful. Now that he's gone and I not this one was worth talking about, not just in the practical sense, but because of The emotion that comes along with often people tie that to life and the military, don't think about it at an engineering firm when this passes away. Yeah did the interesting thing in the right answer when you start talking about these hard situations. Is when you get in hard situations, the fundamentals of leadership, the fundamentals of leadership become even more important The worst things get the more important they are, what what's it? trusting about the principles that we teach is the principles function? It in all situations- and you don't get too

this level of intensity or this level of chaos and say: oh, wait, a second pull out these other principles. You don't get a situation where you ve lost a leader and say: okay. Well now it's time to pull break glass and pull out these other emergency principles, and we saw a lot of this when covert kicked off in companies. And all of a sudden, the market changed or people can come to work or the EU any number of things unfair. Did we didn't say? Oh, here's are you know, pandemic com, leadership procedures, no, the procedures that we. Use the procedures that we teach we have to focus on them harder. We have to make sure that were following these these protocols, these these laws, of combat leadership. So That's what we have to do and- and you know

So that's that sort of a pragmatic side of of the answer to this is like hey guess what here's. What we're gonna do to get back to work here is what we need to move due to move forward so that that is, very pragmatic answer, the other part of the answer. You know you used the term grieve like we're. Ok, this is something we're not normally balancing. So we don't This is not a normal thing to say, ok! Well now we have to grieve. Ok, what's that look like well accompany like this may have never grieved in a unified way before because they might not have had any one died side. The company before that's, not unheard of, so what is Does that look like what is this sort of collective grieving look like end, and how do we do than that some of the things you know that without we did talk about them of like ok,.

You know one thing that I've that I noticed in losing guys and losing friends was that there's we'll have a good protocol in America. We don't have you know in other countries that have a protocol that involve someone dies, here's the protocol- this is what you are going to do. You're gonna eat this food to say these prayers. You're gonna go to this type of ceremony. You can go to other type a ceremony, and then you can go to a final ceremony going gonna have a get together and then that The grieving is over. That's we followed the protocol. Now we are going to essentially move on and everyone accepts it at the level of grieving, that's going to be done in those different variants about this throughout the world. In America, we have so many different- we have so many different types of people and Americans and so many different protocols have been through this. Country that it's kind of watered down in its different for different communities and different people, so different cultures,

yeah! That's what the really the word is: different cultures, so many different cultures. Are in America that the protocol of death, which doesn't happen very often in people's lives. We don't have a great protocol for it So what happens to us and leader? Your positions is we need a sort of formulate a protocol or pick a protocol. A look as it is, disturbing, to use the word protocol you're talking about losing someone. But there's a reason that I'm using that word, because if you dont have a protocol follow its like when you're fine, a jet Dave and there's there's something that happens or some it's a signal comes on there's a protocol you follow that you don't have to think about that you're gonna exit That's gonna get you out of situation know when we have a parachute malfunction, there's approach, Call the follow. I'm not a button Creatively making up decisions of how I'm handle when my parents it's not working. No, I'm going to follow the protocol because I dont want,

to be thinking at this point. So that's why I think this idea, around. Protocol is something to say: ok, here's what we're going to do and I that's the right move. Does this mean that at the end of you go through these ceremonies. You go through these procedures. Go through this protocol that ever was oh great. Now it's over now we can move on. No, but you also can make part that protocol hey, listen, here's! What can I do too? in memory of here's a a thing were set up. Here's a scholarship that were to set up here's a on annual run that we're gonna do here's a of a party that we can have on this date. You use things can do that. That then extend wrote the remembrance and you make sure that you you remember, but you don't dwell. member. What happened? You remember the people, but you don't dwell in those in that because now we're living in the past and no one

wants you to be living in the past, so Definitely a difficult situation. It was really need to see that company close ranks. which is a term we use the military, which means working up we'll stick together and it was really need to see that company close ranks and and move through that and continue when Continue to move forward and continue on that great trajectory that they have in what they're doing great business great people an amazing to see whether don't yeah- and you know we are taught by the outcome. Obviously this is an ongoing thing. It's. This is just like you said there is no end to this of the k on this particular data is all behind them, but my final thought- and that is something you ve talked about all the time to which what allowed them to close ranks. Like you said, is when you make your people the mission when you make your people the most important thing and you take care them indeed,

then these tools and you invest in them- is people not as engineers, not as particular scaler task and that's important, but that's not the priority is the parties. is giving them the things in this issue for business. This issue for families is true anywhere. You give them the things that they need, so they can be successful without you want, Time comes for them to do things without you, whatever it is their able to do that. and that's what they need. So they can be success. Why not sing you run around remaining, Nobody every five seconds. This can all end today, We know that's true, but and even have to be those extreme situations where you have to be able to give them. the tools for them to be successful, that you for a whole host of reasons, and God forbid something. This happens, which it does You want more than anything, is for them to be able to be okay and close ranks and what's inside, that is exactly what you said is was fundamental things. We teach apply everywhere and there is no hidden. oh when you're ready for it, and we don't do this additional in front? There is no, oh, you ve now demonstrated your master,

These basic skills were ready for the next set of things. It's that's on how it is it's the same thing how it applies where it applies, and how to do it, someone that changes from from situation a situation but as a fundamental principle. you can connect to every single situation, your life from the best ones to the worse ones. Is what allows them to close ranks and be successful, despite how bad things are, it's my turn and Why I wonder I wanted to get a little bit pragmatic him a little less theoretical than I normally on em on the debris function, I want to cover. I want to cover some ideas around project management. And there's a reason for this, there's a reason why I'm going here you'll see project management, so others I

you know. We see a lot of projects being undertaken and that's great. We work with incredible project managers in a totally different industries and their some great sort of protocols for doing profit. X and running projects. I have some some golden rules here. just went on the internet and and checked out some golden rules and some rules of project management, the first one. I got this little list here from this thing called Huger, which is an app liquor. That's like up like a coin For application that you can use, I've never used it look nice whatever, but the seven golden rules have a detailed project. Scope approved by stakeholders have the right and right sized team, set frequent milestones set clear roles and responsibilities, dont micromanage role,

Lord the team when milestones are reached and build an extra time for changes there. Some good rules, good rules for project. judgment I found another set of rules for project management from a website called tough nickel dot com They recommend that you understand the scope that you understand the goals of the stakeholders that you plan, that you have contingency plans that you communicate with team that you test early and you prototype that you monitor that you report to the client and manage expectations that you deliver and that you hold a wrap up, slash lessons learned meeting so though, some other good rules for project managers- and this is all good stuff- and I appreciate it and there's a bunch of other great piece of advice out there and rules and suggests

for good project management. But before you didn't angels roles, I want to. I want you to implement one role to start this whole thing off a way to make this the top of the list of every project management list of rules that you look at Your wife and the rule, the number one room as far as I'm concerned for project management is not everything is a project breathing is a project. Don't need a big plan for everything you don't need to discuss with the stakeholders. You'll need to set milestones, you don't need to test, you don't need a prototype, sometimes some, What you can do is you can just do that's what you sometimes you can just do or sometimes you can. delegate someone on your team to just do it and do the thing

or some time you can have whole team, and you can say, hey team, you go to that thing. And you can also take a project. What looks like a project and can split it up into two or three execution steps and you're done. You do this you do that you do other thing: there's the three things we're gonna get done. No project, like you, said oh stakeholder discussion, no milestone set out. This What you're gonna do go doing the you gotta think through it you gotta run the numbers before you figure of something the project, and I ve got a kind of do the calculus an account. This is hard right what the years one party carcass. What's gonna take longer to come up with and order. Freakin execute, ok, what's gonna, take longer, is Take longer to come up with a plan or it's gonna take longer to execute. Can we beat the planning with just executing

and you can put the calculus or we're gonna make a couple mistakes along the way, because we can come up with a best plan, but we still gonna be the plan, so so do run that count run the carcass. How many moving parts are there. How many moving parts? How many things To line up to make this happen. Is it more than four or is it less than four. Is there more than four things that you have to line up to make this whatever thing happen, if it's more in four you probably have a project. If it's less than four you don't Can make it happen if I gotta, hey, get a document done get it reviewed, and and send it to our lawyer is that a project no that's three things, we can get him down also how many different teams are involved, not people, but

legitimate teams are involved. Is it more than four offers it less than four key, because even three teams, I can manage three times. We can get it done you'll need a project management on the scenario. It's more than four teams. Well, guess what I need someone we need to think through it. So ask yourself. These questions, And then you ask yourself this course: you gotta pull check on yourself and the check is what do you tend to do? What What is your tendency as a human your human that execute, or are you a human creates projects, because If you have a tendency to just go and execute, then you need check it out, you might bought off more than you can do that happens? There people that just their tendency is just to go. Guess where I mean yeah, you know rightly, were executed.

This is a tendency I have to pay attention to I know that I can make easier in my head. Then they are in real life. I know that I do that. I do that with thought. one of the first people. I remember do not with his Jade Charles echoes brother. Some you know, he's a computer guy. and I was sort of like brought just make sure you know- hey Disk- make that and it was a lot bigger of a project. Then I could have understood So where are you if you're personnel, to execute, recognise that Also might be a person that tends to create projects, and then you tend not to get things executed and that's what you have to pay attention. You, then you have to weigh your decision properly. You have to put the weight and right spot and by the way you can make it real decision? Making a few

max you, two project or not. I could say paid. If this is what we're looking at doing, what are you doing Estimates see what it'll take. That's it little step at an organised project is so did David go check something out. So that's my number one rule of project management. Not everything is a project check yourself. the pragmatic information, you got on that day. I just love the idea of Europe, your natural tendencies are- and I'm glad you caviar did with if your Nancy is to just go. Then you pining just keep jack a little bit, but the alternative is when you see people realize oh are you saying this? Isn't that hard? We can just go. Do it How liberating as go hey just go, do it, the same. The military called a poem plan of action, milestones would which, like some giant binder that covers every single thing, had to get done when we

but brandy fighters. Why didn't we used a poem? It was twenty two four agencies and forty different this, and it was a massive thing there aren't who many other things that you really needed: a poem for how having aircraft. You're squadron. Sixth, fourteen forty, you how many amateur those worth a hundred thirty three million each, how many personnel were at the command hundreds from three different? Private companies and two different military services, and we have our real estate. Did you did you know how much your equipment. Is you have right, oh you had an operational readiness. So yes, you that that sounds like it might be about eight upon their enough absolutely but- don't get shackled by the poem until you start getting lower and lower than the like? Hey just execute so of anything. Just yes, keepers, aperture, but just move needle people, love when just like you can just go. Do this! It's like! Oh, this is

his hands off. Yes, hang us off GO executes coming out to do what we want and for me I look at things like come, like a fire team right, I can handle for people all day long. The act just like I can handle moving parts like there's three moving parts form of imparts, probably good, such a good number. There's three: four teams. I got a kind of work together with cool We have agreed that nominal lose it and by the if you have three or four moving parts times three or four moving teams will now you got some calculus to do this might be a project. You know what you tend to do probably good place to start have you any more of this information, you can check out extreme ownership, dot com. That's all all my training, gotta bureaucracy, about what we're talking about you want to know. If something is a project or not you ask us about what to do in tough situations and get on the extreme ownership dot com where on their life were on their doing zoom calls

do we have pajama bottoms are sometimes do your pajamas didn't have a pajamas. I on page I got work actual exotic Polly more than I want to admit, so you can check that out. We have are consulted. Company works, comedy stories where these stories come from a small front: dot com, bunch of books, about leadership, bunch of podcasts and Jocko Store, Jocko Fuel, dot, com, origin, USA, dot com check that stuff out. If you want to support, we appreciate it thanks for listening to us. Debrief now, go out there check yourself and lead this Dave and Jacko out.