« Jocko Podcast

The Debrief w/ Jocko And Dave Berke #27: Red Flags: When Egos Clash in The Workplace

2023-05-25 | 🔗

It's common for egos to clash in the workplace. Here are some red flags to lookout for.

Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is the jackal debrief podcast episode twenty seven day burke and me jacko willing what we do on this point cast as we discuss our leadership. Solvency, which is called echelon front and we work with clients, in every industry, my lot to say every industry I mean it's pretty broad, it's very broad. We work with everyone from construction companies manufacturing companies, the software What is the finance companies to insurance companies to bank companies to energy companies. I mean it's a whole, it everybody legal food and think it like. I can't think of one that we don't work with you. Sports everything everything. So we worked with a bunch of different companies. We help them with their leadership and oftentimes we learn from them or we learn from interacting with them or they'll. Have a problem that we haven't seen before, and we will debrief those problems amongst ourselves. So
we do on this podcast, we debrief some of those where we think more who could learn and not make say mistakes, it somewhere else make made, and by the We do not talk about our clients directly on this podcast, because we, maintain the client, what are we patient know the the consultant client silence? We don't like to talk about our clients. We keep that stuff classified for lack of a better word. So if we are talking about a software company it probably in really real life is a plumbing company. If we're talking about a plumbing company, it probably in real life, is a manufacturing company and so on, and the names are changed so you won't be able to tell if we're talking about you exceptional I know what your problem self known, how to build a out, though so here we go woody
you got what you are going on the this is a good one. I was looking forward to this end and something you said it, it was good to as we are all the time And one of the things I get to learn is: we could be with a company, in this case its engineering company But even in the various working on it, specific, very narrow problem with this company that we ve been with four years. What you learn and get repeated over and over again is how applicable these challenges are as unique as they seem. When I get to see, is the application of this particular challenge? all those different companies and all the different industries and how soon where they are and how much they apply in all different facets: notches and business, but in life, and so when we do get with a client, we started. Dig into something and go too little exercise where we really dig deep into a topic, I get to learn a bunch just from them, but also how it applies elsewhere, and this was a fun one. Guess working with an engineering company, smart people, smart people and
they work very independently. Engineers typically get assigned a project and they get to dig into that project. They have a lot of autonomy to solve that, the way that they want and user giant brains and their great education and decent the cool stuff, but one of the by products that is there can be some disagreements and there can be some egos and there is an industry in the world where that doesn't apply to well, the exercise we are going through and, as you know, the topic of ego and humility comes up with every client it's it's a theme that we have to address and we have to think about all the time is right, there a little drill about what does your ego say. and we we talk about the idea of humility and, and we talk about humility being the most important attribute and a leader we talk about what an ego is and why we have and what we do with it. But the It is a good one. We actually went through a the size of starting to write down some of the things that are egos say to us about. Why this is important is not just because the topic is such a critical one You have to know what your ego is saying it's.
Not to say keep your ego and jack. I mean that's what you do, but you have to know how to do that, it's a little but a pattern record. Yes all day long, it's like wind salespeople, they learn They learned pattern recognition to overcome objections. You know when someone says well, I'm not quite sure if I could afford it if they've heard that before and they recognize it and they've got to come back for you. So this is, the very similar and your your your ego default might be different than my ego default. The little finger egos- I said you might not be the same thing that mia says to me, and so it's cool, so I picked ten. I wrote down ten. This is not an exhaustive list, but I thought the way we wrote them down or I wrote them down, would be good and I'm sure you'll have something to say about them. As we are through it and the first one that came up what your ego says to you is I'm right. I know this sounds very simple and pretty safe. word, but the I'm right they're wrong in our conversation that we're disagreement about some solution or whatever might be the entire.
What's happening in my brain. My little ego go gone, you're right in this competition. You know this. This brings me to the last part. Gaza. We did. Lastly, before us we did were, I said, hey what I'm thinking is I'm wrong You know, maybe I'm wrong, and what am I wrong about? They must know something that I dont know my instinct at this juncture. My life is to think they're right. That's my instinct Roma nelson, the hard long change, not what my entire. we'll questioning is gonna be, but echo has been told the shot up for so long. That thing has been beat down, it It knows that in this path of assuming that I'm right, he knows that's a bad outcome in the long term. Yeah, that's that's one thing I was actually just reading. I was actually just writing. I was writing a new chapter for a re release of the book, leadership strategy and tactics, and I actually talked about that actually talked about the
that your ego is going to be saying things to you and if you listen to it, it's gonna put you into a problematic scenario. So yeah watch out for that watch out for that. I love the idea that we talked about instinct. We talk about inclination, we talk about tendencies and how we can a wire bra, we are wired and a lot of ways to do the one thing the ego is a great example, the story, he's told, is you born having this this some magical, care about what your ecosys he talk. Oh hang, on a second, you might be wrong. Are you at a train? You had to beat that thing in it's submission. That is not how you are wired cause you, like every other human being in the world, is wired, where you have to train it to do that, yeah, and so this is actually what I wanted to say about this for or this new chapter that I wrote, there's actually a concept in there. That was a little bit new to me as I was writing it. I was like yeah that makes sense and that Is that fund
until we speaking for the most part? Your ego is a tactical thinker. Your ego just wants to feel good right now. Your ego is not a good strategic, long term thinker. That's the way it is so. The short term fought is I'm right, Dave's wrong, that's a short term! I need to tell Dave that is wrong. That's a short term! Tactical fought wears a fight. The strategic fought is for while Dave might be right. Second, of all, what's priority over being right and wrong is the relationship that we have, because I'm trying to build a good relationship with David us, we have to work together. We have to try to assemble the best plans we drive after have to come up with the best ideas too. there is a team. In effect his ego against my ego. That's not gonna happen, its literally, not gonna happen. Just the same way that if you and I are in a boat and you're rowing in one direction and I'm rolling in the other direction, we're not going to make any progress. If your ego is fighting, my ego we're not going to make any progress, and since I
and control your ego and your paddling really hard. The best thing I can actually do is say it looks like he's, heading west, cool, we're going west or we're going to go hard. And I actually paddle with you until you. back, and you say: hey you're on my scientists, a gap salute absolutely and ass it were we going to do so, work on west. Do she land out there well not really. What do you want to take a look around and now, since we're working together, we can actually get The telescope and take a look around and see if we all I see land or here to the south west are moving south together as a team. Yes, that's all a great idea. The only reason I was able to do that is because I supported my ego and said we're paddling west dave call on paddling heart, I'm with you, support you enough, so you think I'm on your side and your ego says you know what I'm the winner here, I b I get your little. tactical ego. Thinking that got the big victory and then it can stay amount and relax. And I go hey man. Do you see land up there in your little not yet paid you wanna take
look at the telescope, okay. Well, let's take a look. Oh actually, there's and the south sweep out that way. Yet, let's go ahead. Do that, I'm gonna actually seed tactical victories to your ego so that I can win. strategically a very interesting concept that also I like that. None. To the number two embedded in them. And this is a good one, because, especially especially in this group, would you come from like hey? Where did you get your education from Where did you learn this? How much experience you have all these up? active, measurable metrics that can save you put your resume X to mine, and look how much more I've done. I know more than you and I'm better than you with this and which means we should do it my way yeah come on, there's a certain situation that occurs in gettysburg gettysburg battlefield in and when we go up there. I usually talk about the fact that the minute you
we are using your experience, your rank europe. Forty. whenever you using those when an argument they didn't Work? You're losing the aren't. You yes was the argument in any your statement of on better than they are is just a terrible, thing to think it inhibit so much progress. My instinct at juncture in my life is They are better than me and they know something. I don't know. That's the instinct. I that's what I hear my internal voice. I want to call the ego But that's what I hear inside my head is. Dave, says: hey jocuri and we've got this client. I think we should approach it like this. I think well, the day probably has a plan. Has this been think, figured out and listened? Someone might be thinking here, but you don't job you promised steam rolled throughout your life. Hang out with me for while you can see their marketing steam rolled in my life, I gotta get whatever I want in a weird away, so
terrible thing for your ego to say and to your point, pattern. Recognition if you can save yourself when when I look Dave, go Dave, does know what he's talking about and I'm a lot better than him than this. This is this is a I recognition for you when you think that check it. I think that right there is wide this was such a good exercise integrated. It helps people think, oh, what is What is my pattern that I haven't seen so I can catch myself. As its happening, so I know to do something different in the neck and go to the next one, because you think you're doing this, which is the how to do the opposite thing. You should do the next. One is a surprise, don't listen to them in particular the exact same temper, which is the exact opposite of what you should do when somebody's telling you something the exact opposite of what you should do, yeah, there's the the ok echelon for an hour. I have this this Nobody has ever name when I quote where it's like the pose. The listening pose right, where I kind of put my farmer on the
my chin and I call my fingers and put them over my mouth And what I'm doing is, if someone's talking to me, I do that. Look I kind of. Did it instinctively inside joke about it now is like hey. If I have my hand over my mouth like keep my freakin mouth shut and it's a great thing to do the greeting What what's incredible listening is. The team is mad. What should I do? Listen to his team is frustrating. What should I do? Listen wasn't it. team is complaining or try to listen to the team. making excuses. Listen to that actually listened to their closest your powerful, that is to sit turbulent port you're no pockets are taking note of writing a bunch of excuses Know what they're saying listen I don't know when I started doing it. I am sure it is directly correlated to me coming echelon front, but now at the end of it we must. However, we have photographers and videographer people filming if we get these pictures of ourselves.
Here's a picture of you from muster and every man your photo. Water collage, I get there's a picture, because you and I are on stage together- I'm standing there in my right arm is underneath my left arm and my hand is over my head, I'm just listening, and so I've created this habitual thing, which I can't point to. I don't. Romero on this particular day. I learned this thing, but it is the exact same thing you described, which was the habit you can create bygone. Oh, I would be listening right now and a great way to make sure I do that is. I should not be talking be covering my mouth with my hand gear. It that and what a nice little signal to the person. That's trying to talk to you and listen to what you're saying total the only thing better than that is pulling out your notebook and starting to write them down. That's a great way to do it, don't pull out your phone and go to the notes app, because then they think Your ignoring them in your ego on instagram and set a listening to what they're saying so
canucks couple cover you like this one: it's not my fault, We are you skipping nine, this book, because I want to put those two together, because I wrote a couple down that we had people that are almost the exact opposite things that I wanted to lump those together. So I skipped that one for a minute: I'm going come back to it, but it's, not my fault, and I thought that was important, which was like he's so other. Then listen to them. You think about extreme ownership. There's no more of one which was that's exactly the opposite of how you should be what your brain should be saying. Now it listen. It's telling you this your ego. If you don't have this thing trained as well, if you're young smart agreed if type person your ego, saying that problem. That's not your fault! That thing in effect, the dean. That's not because a view that issue that happen with this product is not as a result of you. So it's how you that old yards. Jamie cochrane, our chief, burning officer has training wheels for this one and its
we had an interesting I'm saying that she remembered and- and it's a good point which he first, so she has his thing. We you're trying to take ownership, it's a method of saying. How can I make this my phone and would you first hold? It smells like I'm not out of lay like tat she. Why- and I said well, if I am quote, try to make this my fault. That means it's should not my fault and I'm trying to figure out a way to make it my fault, and she we know we talk through it and eventually what I realized is it's a great methodology, because it's like training, wheels, like its training wheels to say that this was by far but wait a second okay to make this. My fault eventually you won't need that step, but it's really good training wheels to get you there to your instinct. Not being it's not my fault, but instead you're insane being hate. Something went wrong. I'm in charge
It's my fault. Let's get it fixed check, Are these next to came up and I should have put em together on this list, some of the globe, all old I'll say them both and we can talk about it. One is now What else can do this for me but in the same breath we had some people as we're going through. This was in a group was I can't do this and interesting about that is to me, as I think, more contacts with other workers, was. I do the project the euro signed and you don't The experience the background, the reps you haven't done before and so sometimes your ego, we'll go the opposite direction that it in and to meet. The connection is: is it there's insecurity here even when the one, what is as no one can do this, but me there's a man. security of I don't want anybody, knowing that Jocko was as capable as I am, because I'm his boss, or I'm a supervisor, I'm more experienced than him there's no way he should be able to know what I know and in the same breath
if we were those those roles hate you do this with us. You do this all the time and you ve told me, but delta, Charlie first mission, you're, the younger children. You can lead this. If you are, insecure, have never been in a position to that. What you're going to say is. I can't lead this mission. I don't have any idea how how to do the mobility in the nl and your eagles. They do don't don't do this because then they'll discover you don't what you're doing and you'll find a way to avoid doing so. Your ego can actually again it's the same thing that that What time is the protector? protect yourself of mecca gay. You can't do this. You kid is don't take risks. its ability, frat or or don't volunteer for that project or don't end letting that be yours, because you She can't get this done. He looked at the end, and so you got those two different booking There are around the same thing. What one is? No one can do it by me and the other ways I can do is both of which are obviously wrong.
yeah one of them is protected. Both of them are protecting the ego, but using different methodologies. So I can't do this, meaning him put myself I there were already fail. Yes, exactly known, as can do this, that no, I can do this by me as a real common one and if you're your leadership position and no one can do your job, but you you better start working on some other people that can do your job. Otherwise you are problems for you're, the only one that can do your job, your failing, you should have a cup. Other people that are in the running, to be able to do your job tomorrow. That's what the goal this year, that I can't do this is actually pretty closely connected. In the same conversation, witches you'll, dumb or you'll be exposed. What do they call it imposter syndrome, where? What I'm? To what? What you're going to discover about me is that when you dig into it you're going to like it turns out, I don't know What I'm doing a moratorium posture on taking this item not kept.
doing this. Your ego will will tell you that if, if, if you get on uncovered the you, don't know the answer to this question, that is all this particular problem. This thing that should be easy to do this task. You been given, you can't do it you'll, dumb you'll, exposes very closely connected in this conversation. Witches don't take on that task because you do and you dont do it well, you're gonna be here to be uncovered. You gotta be exposed the want one That's a little bit related to. That is the idea of saying I dont know, which is a very tough thing for a lot of people to say an reason. We think it's the reason it hard to say is because we think it makes us look stupid it a very similar thing totalling when the reality is. This is again when I, when I was in the young, I going into the seal teams and we had to go through our oral aboard. She had to go and breakdown weapons and a radios and do combat my care and do you know
Turkey, like all these little thing she had to do and what they got you they would ask. questions that no one would know the answer to get home. And if you try design radio by as I'm so they're gonna ask you you know over the max effective. Range of some rare soviet weapon, and you could try and be awesome and you're gonna fail or and say: hey? I don't know out another numbers behind that, but I can I know where I can look it up and then you fight. That's a huge lesson learned for life, is too spilled saying I'm not so sure about that Really, nice not to have an opinion on everything. How many things you need an opinion on? What are you doing? are to have an opinion on. I think There is very few things that I actually deserve to have an opinion on. I can problem we think of a very small number of things that I'm loud to have an opinion on a legitimate opinion? Are we Just think thing myself, like jujitsu like
but maybe I'm allowed to have an opinion, but I actually don't think I'm allowed to have an opinion on. Did you do like what move is better here? like deem lister can have an opinion on Jujitsu can say: hey, but what's interest even deem would be like well there's the situation like you who can probably have an opinion about a fighter jack right. Like, you can say, hey the f twenty two. who is a better dogs? even aircraft, then the f eighteen period. You can have that opinion yeah. But it's funny cast it when you were talking about you and jujitsu as soon as you said. That in my mind, unlike the irony is that there is no way your gun have an opinion. You shouldn't a pointer like Can I dig into this position and radio may have been, because what I want to get discovered if someone's going to hate jocko. What about this? You go. That's actually a pretty good idea. I mean that's one: almost you could we could do a whole podcast on not having opinion or am almost anything to him Do the things you're an expert on allegedly
allegedly varies a union wide an expert on, but but I think all connects back, and I was thinking like just sing the words I don't know. How powerful that is, not for your own development admitting herself, hey, I don't gotta do this jacket gives me this task and its veto This thing together, I gotta expert on this and I gotta capture the lessons learned: go hey dogma of donors, good job of learn how to do this. Listen this part, this project. When I gotta bring all this team together, I've never done this before. Can you just get help I do agree, I dont actually know how to do that then isn't just for me. That actually is a good sign you go how this davies iconic second mix of upward, covered up or not be willing to reveal to me just a phrase I dont know about a violation that is assault on your ego to look the other person. And may I go jog. Oh I don't know to do this. It is an assault on your ego, but to your point, not
only how powerful it is. You can train your ego to say no, no, that's, ok and that's the tactical strategic that article is due admitted and strategic is, but when I see how much am I going alone How much better am I going to get at it and if I'm early in my career, how much sooner do I learn this? The power? That's inside that in your ego, is fighting against that, don't admit it, you'll look dumb and how counterproductive that is in life to not be wanted. There? You go right on what's next. Well, that was the you look dumb you'll be exposed to the next two are, I guess, two sides of the same coin, and it's again this is about tendency. and miss came up. I thought was really cool cause it's a little bit. We talk about this at the mushroom. We talk the leadership loop, the one that your ego says it's not that bad. I look at a problem. You couldn't issue a setback, a challenge, something that didn't go well and rico's like it's, not that big of a deal which is its wasting ay ay?
ok, just protect you just look at that, and this is no big deal- it is really part of it. His ownership and target is like You don't do that it really doing anything wrong cause. This problem really isn't that big of a deal yeah, that's a good one. You don't when that happens is when, like some key person leaves because of bad leadership and the the reaction is if they're, not epic, but this is not worth watching. This is not how the title was and how it is yeah yeah, that's a good one or some thing starts fallen apart will get through this no big deal echo. That's your ego yachting! That's a good one like now, everything's, fine, nothing about a year and then the opposite. Is that goes wrong. This is catastrophic. This is catastrophic regos has oh you didn't hit that particular number Eden hit that particular deadline of the goals. We have everything. is falling apart. This whole thing is, is is burning down and the other side worry your ego, scares you into thinking. Everything is a problem could be there
persons leading turns out there? There wife has a family in it again or or connecticut, they want to move back in his eye. He listened java, love workin here, but have this opportunity and they go and you let that person go. It doesn't need to be a catastrophic event, but sometimes your ego will tell you have that problem. That means this whole thing is falling apart and opposite. Like I said, the two sides of the same coin So I was having trouble connecting not one but then, as I thought, through see this comes down to just egos being egocentric. Where what you think is going on in your little world is you think is represents representing entirely yeah. That's it so as soon as he did. This is another thing that happens: people like, for instance, let's say you're getting nervous about you, gotta go do presentation and if you The presentation is gonna, be catastrophic that this is a perfectly
samples, Dave's gonna go present to the client and if you do things like so nervous- and he goes near if this doesn't go well, it's gonna be catastrophic. and the reality is like, the people, watch you present, they don't actually did barely even care, you know they don't they no, there are even know what you're gonna say. So how can they judge you so thinking about doing a presentation. Is they don't what you're gonna say. So you go in there and say what you're gonna say in It is what it is. But yes, if you let your ego get out of control, you think that I'm the center of the world, this presentation is important. Everyone is hanging on every word that I say: there's a bunch of people that are sitting there. Looking at instagram, while you're talking so you gotta you gonna, let that go a little bit. Calm your nerves, no one's that concerned about what you are doing and and really catastrophic things. There are just not there many of them in the story, when you talking about that people will create a story. Hey I'm going to give this presentation. It's not going to go well and in steps in their mind that, like I'm gonna, lose
My job to lose my house and they will create this whole scenario by which this issue, which that presentation, if I could get better this things, get improve on they'll make it catastrophic and what I'll do it it'll almost guarantee? or ego so out of control that you shouldn't. good job for sure yourself, regan nervous, so yeah good want the eye. and we in the connection I do I like that, was we talk about one when we're talking about decision Making especially the leadership role is what we gotta do is, and I get an infant im from darker and I'm taken important to validate it'll do how good it is, and if your we call you, the the Presently optimistic, good having great everything's all this really good news that you might be by in that direction, or you could be the guy that everything is terrible happenings catastrophic. I have to know what an inclination is. I have to know that you're biased in that direction. That nothing is that bad.
or everything's catastrophic, and I have to take that into account. So I think this idea of recognizing your ego will drive you one of those two directions. I really liked that, because it's really close to what we talk about with that leadership loop as well and then this one I thought was really good too, is the last on this list? Is I'm not gonna get through to them so we're having a conversation and maybe discussing what the best approach to take on a particular plant or particular project how we want to get which way. Do we want a row, and I will give myself a reason: and the reason is I'm not gonna get thirty, which really my way of saying that you're not gonna. Listen to me, which is a way of relinquishing the responsibility of explaining myself better doing your job, building, a better relationships? Are you trust me more all the things I should need to do to get you to hear me when the times I need to talk you like do there's land down at the south. Where are I'll, tell you like you, never go get through that guy, which is based my way, saying you're the problem,
This is not on me. This is on them. I'm never going to get through to you. So don't waste your time, building, good relationship! where's your time developing what you need to do that person cause they're just stubbornly or set. There are ways didn't wherever they are and its it's an excuse, essentially sort of solar home this one a little bit. I think you would actually there are not going to understand right because I'm not going to get through to them. I'm still saying well wait a second! It's me I I just what I'm saying, but if I just say look, I'm talking to dave this afternoon, I'm not going to get the heat I can listen to me yeah as opposed to talk today this afternoon. I am not going to get food and hold on a second. Why not? What can I do different? So if you let your ego say there, not gonna, listen, which is a beauty. Excuse yeah there, stupid! That's a good one! There, dumb I need a tight myself up on that one. There idiots
Then you have no way out so yeah off well innocent, like you said, not an exhaustive list by any means, we know that are more and I think the coup, Western came from this released. The way we talk. I bet it's a relatively finite, lest I bet to its more finite, then you might initially think I thought Your ego is got like a lower labour realise that it has just freak in, and I Bet, the more egocentric you are, the less phrases you have and the more And the more powerful they are so there's p that just go through life and everyone is an idiot and like there's there a little over you? That's all! indeed, in the point behind that was before, Would you ignore what your ego saying making these awesome tactical move we're just strategic disasters. You gotta listen to it you have to learn what it saying you have to
open your own mind here, what's going on in there and the whole point by that, as if, if you don't know which are ego, was trying to do to you, which really is to protect you, but it's for it's all the right reasons and all the wrong ways. You have to learn you have to learn the habit, and indeed I have even seen you may. equation. I do this now, which is you go? Oh, oh, I see what's going on here and you you're you're. Actually acknowledging. Oh, I hear what you're saying to me. I hear you ego. I hear you you're trying to convince me that he's the problem you're trying to convince me that he's an idiot. Thank you nat Oh, I can tell it a man can do that. I can now and now I could ignore it. I gotta go. I gotta learn to hear that first and you keep talking about where you are and what ego saying that's been trained and its. It starts with knowing what it saying so you gotta listen to it before you, ignore it yeah pattern recognition. And voice recognition. That's like really voice recognition like waiting.
second. I know you I know I hear you anyway the good stuff, I get asked the other day. You know I was just got down with little phenomena. The leadership talk maybe I've been talking and get skewing. I get asked this question kind of eid talk a little bit about what Why should I get asked? Is based, Exactly how do I give direct orders without seeming like a dictator like. I said: I'd been oughta, be talk of an hour. I just talked to this client about a fortnight. In leadership and how the priority is building relationships and how every interaction that I have with people as a leader is meant to strengthen our relationship, not diminish the relationship so just gone through all the stuff, and so clearly this had landed with this individual. The
You heard me say like oh, I want to interact in a positive way Yet this person's? Ok, I get all that, but how you know I get that I get there we should building I get treating people with respect to get listening to them and being influenced and giving trust to get it. I can understand all those things bought. Ben was literally like that it was literally a but in a lot of times, but as an indicator that you are that I, as an instructor really haven't, I haven't pulled it off, so I get all that and I give bought with I do have to give a direct order out. We do it in a way that I'm not hurting relationship. As soon as I heard that bottom and I heard the question I was like- I realized it. Sickly, nothing! I had said it's ok, I had failed to convey my message as a leadership instructor about relationships and about
silent leader and about keeping an open mind and about not being a tyrannical authoritarian, because you see, if you have to give in order, if you have the bark and ordered some one You ve already messed up. If you have to yell at someone you ve already messed up. If you to go direct. As your first attempt to Some want to move in the right direction. If your first attempt you're first salvo is a direct order, then you're, making ninety two other mistakes leader you ve already messed up so bad. that you are wrong spot you you just should not have to bark a direct order. At someone on your team, you just shoot have to do it now ok you get
I situation the audit situation where no one knows what's going on and you gotta puts more out of does occasionally happened like in combat? Yes, it occasionally once in a while in a rare time, happens in a combat situation in a high stress situation, people frozen up people, don't what do they have leadership vacuum and you gotta bark out some orders tell people what to do. Does that, happen once out of every ten thousand orders directions from a leader. Yes, it does. But that sort of the first thing comes to your mind during a leadership. Course of instruction is going I get all that relations that stuff, but what am I gonna do not trust the bark. Would I need you to want to direct order that a good side? So what are they how? How do we want are you missing? So what's thing but some of those ninety two mistakes it you might have made.
So if you're a person renounced naked yeah, but somebody got just tell people. Do I get it, I get what you say and new problems I'm telling you you're messed up- ask you some questions. Have you made sure that they know what the missions. Because if they don't know what the mission is, guess what you gotta, do you gotta bark and order around them? That's what you gotta! Do that's what you gotta do. Don't know what the mission is. They don't understand why they do what to doing and when the wind something changes. You got a bargain order out. That's what's gonna happen. Have you let them come up with a plan, because if If, if I let Dave come up with a plan and something changes David just the plant, if I I came up with a plan. I know something changes. I get a bargain order. Dave. He can't doesn't know what to do cause. He can. I came up the plants my plant, I have the deeper vision. I'm the one can have the bargain order. Women Ask you this: have you trained your team to make decisions.
Because if I haven't train dave to me, decisions and make things happen here, not going to make decisions. Knocker make things happen, and guess what I'm gonna have to do, bark in order, but you're goin back- oh- I didn't have t x awhile ago, when I was talking about the fact that when seth and leif, who were my two Potu commanders and task in a browser, we may showed up in task in a browser They had actually been trained, not to lead A bunch of ways that they do that monsieur teams, they train, It was junior officers not to lead, and you don't know what you're doing hey get in the back of the train: hey you're an experienced hey the chief handles as they trait they literally train them not to lead, and it's bunch of ego that trains people not to lead. Unlike we have rightly, who is who is left chief, whose, like hey leaf, sir, you put this word out its better to have it coming from you, ok, his Goes just so strong. He doesn't care
but if you are not training your people to make decisions, guess what you're gonna have to do bark orders You ve train people to make decisions are not the same thing. You don't have, bark orders, because they already like look like Dave's looking back at me like hey, I got this I'm going to move over here now, cool great is that'd, be going hey. Move over there now. Why cause I actually trained him not to eat? So if you're, not training, people to read you're gonna have to leave, which sometimes means I'm gonna have to communicate them in a dynamic way in a very short kurt fashion, it means are barking orders of people could something happened that was so totally unexpected that now and eve at his level on the battlefield, can't see what I say and I say dave you need to get back to building thirty. Four now cannot happen. that can happen should be rare. have you made sure that your people know. The end state.
Do. They know where they're going cause. If they dont know where they're going you I need to bark at them and tell them which direction to move in because they don't know where they're going they don't where they're going so you'll have to do more to go now. It moved the right. Ok moved a right! Now! if you would know that we were aiming to looking to end up overnight, he would move. by himself without me saying anything have you ensured that your team views confident that you will support them when they make decisions when they are deaf? the grass does your team think you will back them up cause. It they don't think that guess what they're not making a call but I'll make it up. and guess who have to make the call. Now you are, you have the bark orders.
Have you created a precedents, that, when someone on your team makes a call you're gonna give them the support they need. because if that's the presence, if every time dave makes a call. I say god at dave: here's support. You need guess what I am training him like one of pavlov's dogs to go out and make decisions, because he knows, I'm gonna give him the support that he needs or by train them that when he makes a communist second guess, him. cause if gave is expecting to get. Second guess he's not even making a calling us what I gotta do. I gotta bark orders, which is terrible, be careful little. Half suggestion Without any explanation Dave says something like hey jock
We should go to the west and my wrist. france is on and off. I do that you ever had that got a leadership. One hundred uncovering my own ass by half way negating your call, but I'm still letting you go. Do it these The kind of leaders that you won't get decisive subordinates what you will end up having to bark orders all the time cause they've only needs to hear that one time before he shrugs his shoulders and say it looks at me and says: what are you want me to do boss He doesn't want to hear him on. If I do that horrible there's something I don't think Dave should do I'd, be hey dave, you thought about this and induce as I did, About that and here's my response and here's what we're do if that happens, ok, great you gotta, covered origin. Oh no, I didn't think about that. That actually makes it seem like a bad idea. Let me think about it more, but to give the cover my own ass response,
training. People not make decisions so. Ultimately, how are you interacting with your team? because if you interact correctly all the time in every time you interact with your team. You're, actually, training them to be able to stop, but can be obsolete. Every time you Let someone maker call it helps them, learn how to make calls. to every time you let someone maker call every time, Dave, says hey jack o, I think we should hit the target from the north. Idaho sounds good, I trained him. Pavlov's dog to make things happen to make decisions every time I,
make the call every time I say Dave were hit the target from the north get in line. I just train them not to make our all he's learning. he's in the habit now of waiting is in the habit of not making calls which lead to me barking orders And the interesting thing about this is this: in for this idea of informal training, which we talk about. We just got on talking about them at the muster, which is you know I can sit down with you for seven minutes and dual role play on some leadership situation or some contingency scenario at that seven, this training is totally legitimate, but on top of You got formal training, which is hey, dave, we're going to go to a two week class on how to make decisions. Then we got seven minutes of me. Saying: hey, let's talk through the scenario and what decision would you make and that's also training? Then life is training just living life is training life and work
life and work are all just training opportunities. So s, ray time. We need to do proposal for a client its opportunity for David to do that proposal. Every time. every time there, a question from a client. There is an opportunity for day To take and lead on that answer everything we do a mission, it's an opportune, four days to come up with a mission plant. These are real world. Things what happens every day and by the way, happens with your kids every day it happens, your employees every day. This happens your team everyday everything that's going on around. You is an opportunity for you to train ever everything is draining life is training. take advantage of those opportunities we had a wheel. ready to actually wasn't me. It was when I came
back from deployment analysis, running training, so training, training, detachment. And we were pain contractors to set up these big Complex intel scenario for our intel people to train- and I said hey. We have access to all the intel that overseas weren't. We have people actually trying to figure out. What's going on overseas, we have to pay a bunch of contractor to create a fake world, of insurgents just use the real material and let them actually play: information back overseas, so life Is a training scenario, if you conceive of it that way, if you only look at life as the test itself, you miss out on a lot of training opportunities? Do occasionally get it asked. Yes, you do occasionally get a test at national level, we occasionally rarely get an actual test. Yes, we occasionally do we, Two year, I'd say, like Jamie's
got some one specific. What should be like hey? I want you to talk to this client. You gotta She does that to me once a year: the other client just someone socked option. This is doctor once a year. She says: hey here's, this client here opportunity. I want you to talk to the YAP, got it All the other times is training for people. I met how we get good that's what we're doing so. If you are in fact giving people direct orders and barking orders and telling them exactly what to do, You are actually training them not to lead You are also training yourself, your training yourself, not to trust them.
Your training yourself, not to delegate you're turning yourself to look down and in instead of looking up now, but if you let people lead, if you like, Then come up with a plan in your training them to trust you your training them to come up with plans, your training them to take an initiative. your training yourself to trust them, and your training yourself to detach your training yourself to delegate you're. Training yourself to accept eighty percent solutions, which you should. Your training yourself to look up and out you are training all your subordinates to be able to take your job which is what we are doing.
So, if you're in the habit of bossing people around or of giving direct orders or of telling people what it is, they need to do take a step back, detached and start training your people to lead the ceta training them out it. That's what I got anything. The big deal, that's a good one. It's a big deal too good way to go through life too. Good to go through life. If costly training, people to step up and take your place man, it's good, so good. He I think the thing they said that that resonated and hit the most is it. Also, training yourself through training herself, not to trust them. You train himself your training yourself not to apply Decentralized comment and all
Things are sit underneath the relationships that communication all of those things every time, you're barking at order, your training yourself, the a pretty powerfully! That's it for this one. Thanks join us everybody. If you want to get into these little bit deeper or you want to talk to us directly. You go to extreme ownership, dot com. You can join our online leadership academy. We talk about this stuff. This stuff is what we live for and what we have lived for for a long time, so more ship dot com common check out our academy. I can see you on their day will see you on their levels. You on their J, p, Jamie, we're all honour, will answer your car we'll talk for your problems. We will learn. We will teach saw so much courses on there, you can take sort. Those out as well If you need leadership guidance inside your organization, you ve got echelon front dot com. We have a leadership, consultancy, I've also written a bunch of books about leaders
and have another punk call. Jocapa guests are checked out. One out of you support any those podcast. Then you can go to you jack, o fuel, dot, com, doc, restored dot com, echelon, front doc I'm origin, usa, dot com, you can get yourself some drinks, some protein, some boo, it's some genes, some rash gardening pretty much get which need so check. Those out and, in the meantime, thank you for listening to us debrief now go led. This is dave and jacko out
Transcript generated on 2023-05-26.