This is the Jacko Debrief Podcast episode, seven with Dave Burke and me Jocker Willing Dave, let's debrief, what do you got right on. We ve gotta project manager, so he's one of four senior project managers at the p M, this company they dont, have any direct reports. Without God is they ve got a pool of what they call Junior consultants so basically a pool of folks that support them in the different projects and the senior project managers work with IE junior consultants to solve problems, this guy It just been recently hired as a senior p m is works with pm's were all way more expensive than fifteen years more senior to him and they got their own way of doing it. They'll a little bit more independent to him, not big delegate, Can I like to manage their programmes and they have? really. They haven't really done a good job of

mentoring, involving those junior project, others, dear consultants, so What this guy's Chauvelin with one of the challenges is dealing with this he wants to evolve. Those really ships with those junior condolence and help them, but it doesn't work step on the toes of the senior consultants, we see the need this leadership void, to bring in leave at the the evolution of these consultants, but he also knows he's new innocent. forget that without overstepping his bounds- and he also want- to make sure that he doesn't take off stuff on his own he's got a job to do an end that can halting peace is important and he doesn't want to get overloaded with the work well. I give him right now out of the gate on a four awareness. A lot of people coming out of the gate, especially their young. In there their fired up. They can even comprehend that may be, it might run some people the wrong way to start. You know being the the

signing example of a mentor to the young troops, so good for him. He gets and aid for awareness yeah at this point in order to- and I also the awareness of that these junior Sultans also need to be measured realising that hate. This is a role that that he needs felt so the first part of that conversation we had was really we just getting ass. He can eyes, and he knows us you're, the junior guy. So you need to tread like You cannot walk in here and he saw with eight years come. I'm here, I'm here to fix things when United about this there's this concept you keep coming back to the term the minimum force required so the amount of influence the amount of exertion you want to push to get the owl that you want without doing so much! It is very clear that what you are doing is in force to sit to this situation, which is interesting, because some people

don't even recognize that there's a spectrum of force that can be applied They only recognise that there is one level maximum force and even if they don't recognize maximum forced the date is kind of roll around at like level seven force who this world you? Don't? That's that's how some people rule and what's really cool is if you want to look at that spectrum. There's this spectrum of maximum force we're just imposing year will on your subordinates when you get true minimum force, all sudden you're in a spot where the the peace that or having the forced supplied to them. Don't then recognise it it's so subtle, they just actually think they're proactively doing what it is that they want to do and they realize that they ve been guided in a way by this. unseen and felt, for that's moving in the right direction, so we you can lead without saying a word without beetle with bare,

we doing anything you have effectively with the minimum force required, which is the goal? Why because every time we use force of any level, it's an expenditure, its nature of leadership capital. So we impose our Wilson where its its spending our leadership capital and we are trying not to spend our leadership capital. Indeed, the other component that I wanted him to look at was what do you think the other pm's is out his three pairs of senior as what would they? What do they want? In the end they problem we want to be. Supported by this pool of junior consultants as best as possible. So this is. something he doesn't look out and go hey, there's a pair mom and what I need to worry about is creating a bigger problem for my peers he's actually helping solve a problem that cannot use it, maybe not aware that this problem is isn't it because the whether they they they manage a situation but as he influences

and become central to the evolution of how that team operates. That team is just going to get better and the beneficiaries of that has to those pierce and he thought of it in the terms of as I am doing this and finding ways to meant or those teams, actually is helping his counterparts, and so there's not really looking at the right way. There's really. Friction resistance there, assuming and do you just discarded which is walking in you know the the level. Eleven, I'm here to fix problems that, oh by the way, the implication be as those problems you created. I wasn't even here for this, but clearly these are the things you ve been doing wrong He can actually help those other project managers, those other senior guys without them, even really knowing it yeah. friction that he needs to watch out for his everyone else's egos and his own ego. But that's the friction that can be a problem here because, ultimately, from a sense of broad alignment, hey What we are doing is where training our subordinate, so they can better support us

there's only one that votes no ok, rate so we're all kind of on board this. As long as you can keep away from people's egos and not at their precious ego. We be able to move forward. How can I help? How can I help this group of people our support you and the projects at your leading cattle, but invite it'll, never support and then take response, but if that enters watch them be the beneficiaries of that. So the eagle never gets part of that equation at all and the exact same time you ve probably got this pool. general consultants, there probably struggling because these three different leaders probably all differ They ve got thrown nuances and they please dont, know how to manage that relation. As well as they could and what they really need is some so mentorship and if he can gently become the and that helps these junior consultants Navid those relations for their bosses that team it just gonna, get better they're, gonna they're, going to be better at what they are doing. and he's gonna be central to their development and

it can be something where he he doesn't. He doesn't need to take credit for that, he doesn't need to be acknowledged as the one doing it. He can be the one that recognises what the senior folks need: another your folks can better support them and he become the quiet or almost silent influence in making everybody in their role better. So the outcome of this and the cool opportunities is a hugely perceptually is hitting me the reason why that entire team starts performer So this reminds me of a little trick. It's a trick. It has to to situations that you can utilise this track, it is subordinate jobs Or let even column menial jobs, so One way to use this trick is you're, my boss Dave, and we take this case right here, hey Dave. I know that it's kind of a pain to two to monitor these young troops.

And you know that I know you got more important things to do. I don't mind. cuz, I'm kind of Cotonou here and you're, like No, what somebody good call Jocker would you go had meant to them, so I we just bore dated my ego, elevated your ego, and I got to do exactly what I wanted to do this, than that, you can do all the time you can use that trick all the time. Even though look both know we both know factually. Is there anything more important in the world than then? you kidding in mentoring and raising up troops below you in the chain of command, there's nothing more important, But if somebody wants the slough that job after me I'll take it all day, long and I'll make it seem like some tedious, meaningless thing that they have to do so. That's one way to you to utilise that too. The other way utilise their tool is when you, You don't now you're working for me Dave and I know that you need- you- need some like some help- you need you need to

You need to hone your skills at whatever. So what do I do? I say: hey Dave, you know, you seem like you got a handle on this. Can you teach a classic. And is something that I know you need work on. Prego, HALO, Dave. I know what you need, a homo, skills are empty. That's a definite I think you're gonna could handle. What do you say that a can you can you, can you teach the rest? The guise of echelon front about cover move? Can you just do it? the little thing about that just so everyone can get your perspective. You got here, no problem jocker, I got it. You know, I know I know of one kind of looks up to my skills when it comes to cover move and boom, you say you're caught it and now you go hey guys say it gave one day is going, spend fifteen minutes going to cover move. Could I think he's got a good perspective on it and now, who actually dig in you teach it. You learn it. You understand it better and we all win.

so that's cool thing to do or to cool little skilled, haves and cool it'll. Take me to have in Europe in your back pocket, whether you using it to we're comes someone's ego or whether you using a to provide someone with little Eagle, lift while you're actually improving their skills. Both situations win win our. that next time. You asked me to do so. Would you really get right on our right We all know the next one yeah thanks. How is this problem solved? Dude? This problem is on track to being salt and the part of the way you started. That was in for his awareness, the conversation we had. His awareness was a huge part to recognise that the gist of the just and as the terrain that he was on makes the article things that he's doing so much easier because you actually see the big picture and I used to supporting that bigger strategy as opposed to walking in thinking hey. I can

at these guys really hard. Now I set myself up in a bad situation. He didn't do anything so, like you said the observation he understood what is getting into so you ve heard me say before there's nothing more important than knowing, where you or on the battlefield? Right does obviously the most important thing once, you know where you are great, that step points. to us like! Ok, what's this terrain, look like how do I fit in this rain? How can I utilize it to rain? Which direction do I move? What do I need to watch out for and that's what he did knew where he was? Where is he Let's outlines, where is he on the battlefield? He's knew he less experienced, he has some skills he wants to do good, that's where he's out. He knows where he's out that's a very important thing, and then he does a quick train study. Ok, other people experience in me

other people have some egos that probably dont want to give priority to. These are just knowing your terrain and then you just able to maneuver through that terrain and use it to his advantage. That's what you do on the battlefield, what you do and about feel you don't go operators high ground over their whatever you go, there's a groan of an army to take it or you say: oh there's, enemy, strong point. What do you do No, you got others anatomy strong point, I'm no avoid that that's how you study the terrain of human beings and that's how you utilise the terrain that you're looking at you know where you are you analyze that terrain and then you maneuver effectively and you actually utilise the terrain. That's what you do. You been waiting for me to try and not amount would have gas ago. I forget which, when it was, I was like: hey people, are turning and there's the little there's the little completion of that thought Yad at an impasse. back from that. One we're talking about the terrain. Any was

the example of hate, this this article. This you're not moving that terrain, that Moving that mountain moving that in that trends position you you actually have to move around it yet maneuver around it. in that connection of what the train is anything but you're not gonna, move that terrain. You. to maneuver around the terrain? That's that Your point is huge when you, when you're assessing what is your actual China, India and the you can go ahead- move yourself into positions on the battlefield where Europe can no longer move can move yourself into put, you can be yourself and low ground. You can move yourself up against a cliff where you can't get that thing and you just have to sit there and socket up what does it look like? It looks like you know, the boss, that you pain into a corner by call em out during a meeting and all of a sudden you, you got no you're going down here, just going to sit there and get punished We eat a multitude of ways for that, so yes, If you understand that

can maneuver through its like. You did, sir. You know you're crossed somebody gets if you're on the bottom and some of the cross. I don't you you can upload bench, press them off you. You can't I mean, maybe if there are a hundred pounds, but if there we want sized, wait you because they can apply pressure in different ways. You can't just bench press them offer you can't lift them two feet. You can lift him about an inch and that Gimme the space that you need to maneuver next question I, this next scenario will similar got inexperienced engineer, he's he's where the team he's a senior engineer and the team he's about to join, has a reputation of not wanting to work well with other teams but interesting. The reason find. It is that at least reputation is that the other teams that sort of they build this and they delivered to them the other teams dont deliver. They got? This friction based relation between the timid, just joined at another time,

that really is designed to support them and what's happened, Is that this team is he on they work? the other team because they have to but the approaches that they kind of that kind of they can attract everything. So they know the other teams. Knocker deliver a rather builder leader lights, a bit kind of monitor all the things they aren't doing, and they kind of got this check with an okay just didn't have it on time. Okay, this didn't happen to this quality level until that friction, his crew, Did this other team that has a reputation or not being able deliver, they dont deliver this teams approach is to your the eighty will to say this. The atm is the team that doesn't Well with others, but they get the job done yes, and now we got the beating. is the team that doesn't get things done on time, probably under performs, and they teams approach towards the beating is he drank of everything the beating doesn't do, but not really, help them in, but we have the address exactly right, but you don't remember this.

this synergy just join that team and against similar. He, knows he has this. She has the sense of eight. our leadership, though these treaties What will the das? with the boss really needs, is this product out on time to be there equality, and this boss understands it unhealthy relationship and he sees right away our approach to doing this actually using helping us in the long run. So his question in the issues dealing with is the same thing as hey. How can he for this relationship with this other team that it by weight. are underperforming, the b team is the beating. They are not doing. The things you need to do and similar thing is what really talking about is he's trying to change the culture inside the organisation partially for his team and for this other team, that's not under his China Command doesnt work directly for him. They work together and pride

first thing that we talked about it, one of the first issues as he sees that there's a law, history here. This is a his. This is how it's been. Historically, I talk about this. city of culture changes. The way you see it is right that it should be very obvious that what you should do that the team is help him. That's what they need. Don't underestimate. How differ that is going to be because this, our tissue of the eighteen burned by the b team. back. A long way and Is that how you need to play a little belong long game here of what you're trying to do? And the other piece the conversation was right out of out of this book. Is he there's a piece of of this idea of conforming to points leadership strategy, intact expenditure yeah, I'm just I'm just going to like everybody knows what I'm doing but of course is leadership, charging dogs, cats. That's that's that! respect for these real if political situations, because as he Georgia team, guess what the intimacy

hey. Welcome aboard the seams awesome by the way, those guys the beating their terrible and can't walk in his go. Oh hey! Take it easy guys! Maybe the problem here is actually you maybe you're the reason why that team has been been struggling, how to deliver that conform to enforce and also connect to that little bit of that reflect in finish, which is a mammoth. That's thus sounds Well now you tell me more about that would have been those issues that has affected us and then start a kind of work that down The first thing you can do. The best thing you can do could do any esteem, build some credibility and some credibility you can start to create them and for the other side of it is. He was hired as a senior engineer. This isn't Ok, this is a brand new guy. He was brought in that boss to help with this team to help with the eighteen. as an experienced engineer, the likelihood that the boss brought him in just two engineering things probably isn't the whole story and when

we talked about as eight. What's how well does your leadership understand? The friction does all that was. That was one of the key points. The conversation of one of the things that that bosses is the prom between us to support teams. Sizzle you got Braun, as a senior and senior engineer on the eighteen, the team is doing really well and the conversations he was having with you is: what's been wrong. that other team that you are not responsible for so when I give you pick, gives you a huge opportunity to influence your team with there because really what the b team needs because shortage? That is, what written out they need help. They need leadership. and your your boss probably recognizes that. That's one of the reasons why I brought you here: why do you think the boss, put the new leader into the beating soft imo leader. If, if I in charge of this have on the boss, and I have these

two teams, I've gotta, performing team gotta, got underperforming demon. I bring you win, as my next Miller manager then put in one of those. These two teams me pudding. on the beat him to me. Then a meal reinforces the beat him. The problem on bringing this guy and unease yourselves, please here to fix you and your team, but connection between those two teams is different teams, but they work really closely together and the eighteen is actually the final that there were breathing comes into and there the one that actually deliver the product of the kind that one as the eighteen, that's the eighteen. So because I seek a couple of other teams. two teams are fine but all three other two or three times feed into the eighteen that delivers it to the quiet, and I think that is me. That's the key. That's the key! when a friction at work to the to the climate receiving and also to the relationships inside the organization. So I'm gonna put you on that team. who influenced those other teams

The other teams, since the eighteen delivers. The final product is already other teams slightly. Maybe even like illogically, subordinate to the eighteen yeah. I think so yeah That would make sense to me too, that I'm gonna take the the pipe hitter and say you're goin in today team, because that's where everything comes together and so on where I need this Senor engineer with leadership, experience to go in there and fix these problems and included in that is making sure that you don't have friction with these other teams even get the job done so so so I'm assuming that use? You told the guy hey you may, want to try helping the b team. I mean that was Does the simplest way to describe the answer, the help with the b team? I think the challenging part for him is that he doesn't just walk over the BT. Miss a here I'm here to help you it's actually getting, the people on his team that final delivery team to recognise that the mindset at that I'm want to keep track.

Your your mistakes would highlight all those mistakes, I'm shove those mistakes in your face and I wanna let my boss know that but all your mistakes were so making it happen. Actually hurts us in the long run and actually under and us in the long run, because what we, need for another team, we also need a better product sooner and on time, and so that help actually is recognising that his own team the team that he's not responsible for is where we can make the biggest inflows. So the? U wanna, hear. I learned this lesson. Yes, I love you write stuff that I learn. This lesson I was going through basic seal training and in basic seal training, you have room inspections and during your room inspections, the only lead check your bed, it's gotta be made certain way they check here Lore, it's gotta be swept and waxen and your boots, I'd be polish near all the stuff right. All the standard kind of milk tourist off. While they also expect your dive,

here or your swim gear could we're not even This is a first phase. You don't have diving yet, but you have a unity, live jacket, which has a little metal actuator, which has to be clean and rust free, polish. This brass kept stir of zero two until it's like go gleaming. And you have a knife in a knife- has to be razor sharp. So so I had Might I had three roommates three? You have roommates here and you're the barracks, but you have a fortune go to your room. They least when I went through us and My roommates, where we all we all got along great red, great, cruel guys in there and they come in and we spent the whole weaken like I didn't, go, you could do weird thing about your training. People known as you can go out on a week if you want to go, get drunk on a Saturday. You could do that. I didn't do that. Sat there sharper my knife and pass my boots and starts my uniforms and just was trying to get ready for these inspections. Now you don't pay,

these inspections like well, you just is not gonna Passees inspections, but you still in my mind, tat. As hard as you possibly can so anyways, I said the whole weekend, I'm sort of my roommates we're all we strip the floor. We wax the floor. We make our beds, we pay repaint or how much we do all this stuff sharpen the knives pass the boots. So was good. I was good at polishing boots for sure I was good sharpening my knife, which I was pretty good at these menial tasks, I'm I'm I'm pretty good at just doing meaningless, like labour, so the one structures comes in and he's gone through? you're in picks up my life and my knife is razor, sharp razor, sharp Jcpenney picks any picks and up any shape. The hair on his arm and he's me gives me like the nod of approval thinking. That's right! That's right however? It did he walks over to one of my roommate son. He's got his gear of his knife, its

not ass, sharp any goes in enone says a However, whatever the name is, he was a Smith, you knife socks and then he was willing What kind of body fucker you don't even teach your friend how to sharpen his knife and then he walked back over picks up my knife and on the bunk, beds that we have theirs up, there's mental pipe. you know that the the foot of the bunk bed, and he takes a knife- goes just smash it like blade onto the thing King King King, I just ruins this knife And then tell me what the surf and tell him to go and we all deserve, but the point there is about that from the reality of that situation. What kind of loser am I a farm, taking care of myself over here, but Taking care of my body, my friend, my teammate

and so, when you document and showed me the list of the things that the other team failed on you, make me sick to my stomach. I am impressed in any way shape or form on the performance of your team, in fact arms on I, actually I actually don't like if you bring me the list of what the other guy of what the other team mistakes it they made. I don't like you as a person and I I want to hurt you so that's just so crazy. So if you think about it from our perspective- and this is one of those things right- there's one of these things where our minds play a trick on us, because the trick is, It's so obvious when I, when I tell that story, when I say hey, do if you bring me the list of the mistakes that you're dead. Pure made. That's what you do. I don't like you, pissed off for you you're bad teammate, you're, a bad leader I dont, like you, did so obvious right. No one likes that guy when, when we're in that position, when we're

in that position, we think you know what look I'll look good. If I show the boss what the mistakes heres a list of mistakes that Dave Burke made here, look at what it looks bad Burke is its such a loser thing they do so don't do that, don't do that instead help them out and nobody despite whatever history is going on here. Nobody even really wants to be on that. If we really want to be a part of that part of a team were the rat, the rats about where I got up- and one note I didn't take that I wanted to say rather because that's a rat in writing, and nobody really wants to be a part of it and in the way included? This was he think about the reaction from talking to him now think about their reaction. You're gonna get from your team. If you how about a little bit a ban with, as is a relatively new guy, you had over the team, and you can you help them with some product

repeat: are you give a liberal ban with them? Is support them and this thing that the eighties and waiting on gets here just a little bit sooner and it's a little bit better. What how'd you get timid react to that and I think what said to have expands on that makes it more clear of if you go from the outset. In your team doesn't want to be a part of that either what they really Wanna be a part of a whole bunch of people working together, doing a really good job so that everybody is doing well, that's what they really want, and this little infection of Hades. How would you so we are in the eighteen, didn't really want they want to be a rat. They don't want be. It is actually not something that really wants to revel in the failure of their counterparts in if you could give them a chance over time to see the difference between the two things and let them get that That's of what it's like to contribute to that team so that a benefit now you this too, it, was, as which twist you think your team is actually gonna, make a thousand choice in its so straightforward, and I talked about What reassure you gonna get when you show them

This is how you ve been operated and they benefit from that and hear something to watch out for. So so what you said is true in the purest form, which is this. I want to be part of the time. That does good across the board right, if you take everyone at the highest level, and you say, hey, which pay, which team do you want to be a part of the team that Sir what's the other teams and consolidates everyone for the wind or the team that riding each other out. Everyone answers that question the right way: here's the problem that I'd be what they really want to be a part of, but there's something that's much easier to be a part of, and that is, and it's easier to unify, a team and it's easier to rip people down than it is to build them up. So we will we

will tend towards the lower the common denominator of hey. It's us against them it's us against them. It's arguing against their game when I read about leadership, tragic tactics. I wrote about that idea of here. You are you're part of this group and it's the it happen. In book camp right in the beginning of a boot camp, the drill instructors or it Austria cannot school the drill instructors there. Formulating a common enemy for the class to be against and what does is unifies us. It's simple, very simple: Mentality writes a very simple trick to play. Hey this drill. Instead, there's a son of a bitch and we ate him and he's making us to all these things and it actually unifies the team. And what How about leadership strategy tactics was what the trap that we fall into it's really easy. When someone says

Ah, the boss is a tool idiot its. Easy step, because I want to be front Dave, I walk into work, you know I mean Dave for the first time: hey are you doing, Dave could be working with you and we're peers, and then you go hey by the way are free boss is an idiot and it's really easy for me the next day say. While you were right about a guy. I did know you such an idiot and often we're brows. Now we unified against a common, any enemy and that's the easiest path to take and it that's not only with the up the chain of command, but it happens with me team in your team and it's the If you join my team, one of the EU He S. Ways for us to bond is for us to say euros from look Judaic, I'm glad you I'm glad you got you're mad. We need some help, because the freak and b team doesn't care their weight and you go. You gotta be kidding and all of a sudden, we're bonded. So have to resist that. We have to resist that that susceptibility that we all have to

utilise negativity as way to strengthen our core group? Look, I'm not saying you never! Do it right, I'm not and I never did saying I never talked about some other task unit as if they were the bane of the world and they didn't even deserve to be in the games. Now I would do that because it's us against them. So yes well what are utilised that from time to time. Yes, but it's not your go to and I would certainly never make it crossed the line where we were actually gonna, do some kind of that aid action or sabotage another task unit that I would I wouldn't do that. So it's a little word of caution: theirs things you gotta look out for we have we tend towards the path of least resistance and its way easy, it's way easier to hate and territory. There. It is to build them. Lift up. I mean

Obviously, that makes sense thinking about it and and. There's a piece about sometimes the the energy. Sometimes it takes to continue to reinforce this view point of how how screwed up another team is an end. I even think of the idea, like yes track in the stuff, like What time does that build Europe? and even though that's hard think about what's even harder work, even harder is saying. Ok, you know what they got: some short We're gonna help yeah, hey the EU. The path? Is a we're gonna write this down? which is, as total, savages hard thing to say, as hey listen, what can we what can we do, support them and help them out we're here to win we, if they don't win, we don't win the long gain. That's the scar tissue were talking, my the beginning, with him as a helpless and disunited coming overnight changes there. There's there's this entrenched way of doing it, and you have to play this a little bit longer than you might want to get. To see. That and look I mean

that that's can't that's kind of what we do. We come into these organizations we come in with these teams. We see things from from a different perspective. We see from a different viewpoint and then we help the connection between the a principle that we teach and how if they apply them and where to apply them, how to eventually we will make their individual lives better, which may Thirteen better, which makes our life better and that cycle is a cycle we're trying to create by helping connect what we teach to their world So you just mentioned this news that you know you're gonna play along the I was reading something the other day. I can't remember where I read it, but check this out: when you start talking up along game Dino long. That is when you talk Wait? Let me let me rephrase that when you talk about the strategic, we do how long that strategic game is forever forever. The the The difference between you know that,

told me operational. Is that this strategic Win is unconstrained by time and space. So this goes on forever. That's what the long game is. The wrong game doesn't have an end which is you're crazy? are you crazy to think that we are doing something because we're gonna win, we're gonna win ever so how long's along game its long very long without well again, like I said so that problem solved yet, yes, think we're tracking on that problem, and it was just all these and look get to see these things all before drove down you this I had, sir. I was three our streak of just

individual problems. Problem solving on different things, were different quiet, similar situations and that that's my life bro to do that, all the time which is which is actually kind of ridiculous. I do so recall with decline, which was my first call with this particular client, and he was he we said this, he goes. You know, I listen to you and I get jelly and this guy's Nido running a big massive company. He was I get jealous because here get to learn so much, and I said you don't normally I deny you intimate he's jealous of me. I say, while nothing be jealous of over here, but You should be jobs that that is at its height But that is a legitimate thing. The fact that you and me the rescue team in us. Not we we get to go through. These different experiences with companies and the other thing is they have. experience a problem for three months

we get in there. We get this condensed version of the problem. We learn about the whole thing that we can come up with a solution in two days and that's awesome, some we get Learn all those lessons along the way. So there did totally and And for me, the coolest part about it is that I I mostly stay with accompanying got multiple companies are a bunch of clouds pricing. For a long time ago. come the gay. You know we have a plan d, together for maybe three months or so, and that might be kind of it. The going in planet. They have and we're good support whatever they want and that three months hate can use, and we stay longer and we get to see this the evolution of these things individually, and we get to see the evolution of the organization out organisation changes in a worse was like a bee assessment, and then a year later, we get to look as he how much by just applying these just applying these principles, just taking the You talk on the podcast, the things

book, a the things that leaders are tactics just applying those as we give them that perspective that you, back and think, and you can see how much better they are and how much better their lives are, and I get to do that every single day, what school here, something that I didn't account for in the early rational on front in the early days of national front, no! You were you'd onboard. Do you remember me saying: hey, listen our goal is to set up five year, contracts with companies, because it shouldn't take us five years- it shouldn't take us three years. It should take two years can take us one year. We should be to go in, assess what companies going through and then get them aligned and organised and get their leadership set and an that's cool. And so Hey for takes us three months. Ok, six months pushing if we're talking nine months. Twelve months I start look.

myself saying wait. A second were making a mistake here. Here's what I do The count for- and this has been so often is that when you take a company that has got some issues and you Get those issues aligned in two months will then, all of a sudden they get a massive increase in business. They have their profitability goes up, they start hurry more people and all of a sudden there growth require they they and up with new new issues that need to be resolved and we ve already nowhere where they resolve their problems last time and they see the growth that they got from it they combine. back could say: hey are we need We need to do is again we need. If we need to go over this, we need to grow. We get our new leaders train up like that's what happens, so I didn't do a good job of accounting. For that, when I had that philosophy and my in the early days of echelon front of saying: hey, listen! You we not here to milk, you of all this money, we are to come in solving problems and leave that's what a special operations unit disposed to come in

solve your problems and leave right. That's what our goal was and is a national front. Here's the deal the ones you come in solve the problems. Then growth happens. things change they acquire other companies, we get mergers and all of a sudden the go haywire Can we get some assistance again and it's like yes absolutely year or so when they win, we win and it works out, that happens. All the time we will work with sometimes one line of business inside a huge costs, huge companies and then that's it must engage, will be done about the hate we who another line of business. Not in this region would you be available, and course the answers always yes and the philosophy that you talk to me about the beginning, when you were standing up this this elder programme, a headache during a kind of lead this segment here we are not there again our hopes in some company where they are reliant on us. We should take the exact opposite approach. We want them to be self sustaining to take, we teach and not

does any more and it made sense when you said it, but I didn't have a foresight either of we go in there and we get that feedback and then there's all these other areas they bring it in that there are clear new comers, ichor saint or they have other segments it'll just decouple, what they're doing and there there s he has to do more and in one of the core, since we're doing now is, it's almost universal. The teams that the companies work on one is to help them build their own sustain meeting where we train their folks to before What did you do? The same self insult yeah and once somebody comes back to the well three four times: that's when we tell them hey, listen, we can get donors, but we don't want to you guys, should do this on your own and the same thing you know this is this. Is this? Once again the special operations models, morbid green berets model right, which is hey, we're gonna, we're going to train the trainers, retrain the troops once we train troops we ve got a good amount troops and they know what they're doing in the leadership is working together. Cool

well. Eventually, they want to train trainers back in the end and we ve do you know we ve worked with companies where we set up their own like custom the leadership training programme that we don't have to be in a part of any more. So our time Spain has spread out a little more than I originally anticipated when we started this whole thing out, but the euro The goal is not to get hooks in the goal is to have people be able to carry on on their own and they are able to high five us. We walk away and they carry on in perpetuity for just victory. Yes check anything else. I mean that's what you do with an owl damp with a with with an alibi program. If you do not I you check out What they're doing their principles, how they're doing it look at how we can get. principles into what They're doing we don't.

the comments, by the way we have to come in and take their principles and thrown out back. We now need to do that. The principles are alive. The leadership principles that we talk about our aligned in any organization, yet any organization to include ones that have never thought about it before or ones that have completely well crafted mission, values, check they fit everywhere. Their dinner as tools to reinforce that are doing or help them build up from the ground up they fit everywhere. right on We want a little long. That's good places stop. So if you want to dig deeper into all these aspects of leadership, in any arena. You can join Dave and me, and there are the echelon front team at Eve online dot com, where we're, we will sit there on zoom or actually I stand. Stand there and answer questions solve your problems. If you want to go,

You have online dot com, you can come and talk to us if you want leadership guidance inside your organization, which is what we're talking about come check out. Our leadership, consultancy, echelon front our common, also written a bunch of books on the subject of leadership. Extreme ship. The dichotomy, leadership and leadership strategy and tactics got some other. Gas once called Jacko Podcast once called Jacko unreal falling once called grounded and one is called the warrior kid podcast! If you want to support any of these podcast Gooding this one, you can get some gear from Jacko Store, dot com, or you can get some gear from origin main dot com thanks for listening to us, as we debrief now go led this Dave and Jacko out.