This is the Jacko Debrief, podcast episode, eight with Dave, Burke and me Jacko willing, if you just tapping into this podcast for the first time we have a leadership. Consulting company and we work with all kinds of different businesses, indifferent leaders and we have an online training platform and war we do is solve problems through leadership and even I often debrief so, relations are scenarios that are unfolding and some those conversations are goods or a while back. We decided, let's just record some of these conversations as we debrief, so we and share the knowledge with as many people as possible, so that what this is. This is a leadership broadcasts talking about how to solve problems through leadership. So with that Dave, let's debrief. Why don't we ve got a work with it,

Neither is it a team leader that supports multiple projects, can like a roving p m so she has multiple teams that she's responsible for it can move around and spends a couple. On site with each and then will travel somewhere else to a different site and when she's the team, the do really well, she she's all of them suppose she's been teaching them. She listened the Pike S issue. She, understand them in and she has done a really good job. Embracing them with her team and when she's with her team when she's on Saddam's projects, he is also there on time their delivering an. he's discovers when she's gone and so she's after them the project that team their performance goes out and they can a slack off a little bit,

But she, the revisit rate is enough that she keeps him on track, everything's, fine, but its clear and remind now than when she's on around leading the team directly the team slacks off. So they. What do? I do and as we are talking you know there was a there was a straightforward answer in my mind, like the kind of obvious answer that I had in my head, which was well listen if your team led in your team, is not delivering when you're not around. Give that put them heart. Give them ownership and sort of the straightforward thing was: let them be the lead you dont need be. The p m, if, as as european, when gone, they underperform that actually is and helping them so part of it was he rashly not applying the principles as well as you think, if, when you're gone, they underperform, so we talk about looking for opportunities, are put in

charge. Looking for chances to have them be the lead. So your presence there really is. It is impossible, as it has been. I wanted to dig a little deeper with her on this and have her gonna think a little bit more to, and the first pillar again to me was kind of obvious is that this is this. Is the idea of decentralized command? This idea of you can't everywhere, all the time you can't be with. your teams all the time, so you can't help them, make decisions all the time on site, and so you We need them to step up. You need Greece, the decision making authority you need to give him a beggar box in a given that better explanation of why the what we are doing in this a lot of things that we can do under the umbrella of Decentralized Command, to help her team do better and flourish and lead better without her being there, but the other part of it. I think that was really critical as we gonna dig into this was missing, is that one of the things did she neither Santa's that's how she was best for them. Not what was

for her as a team? We do not even want, which is best for the particular project with he was working on. It was what they needed, and the issue with them sort of performing in her absence was a cause we talk about when we talk about decentralized community idea of working yourself out of a job. when we are in charge and our team and our team performs well when we're around and it doesn't not quite as well will not run. I think the natural And ass, he to think I'm kind of the linchpin here, I'm kind of the cruel conquer, critical component and the peace that's making this happen, I'm kind of us, I'm kind of awesome, the Annan in it. It's something that is kind of validating, n, n n. It Ray enforces what you want, which is to be a good leader and and to be the reason why you're team is successful, but there's a piece was missing. The point that was missing is the recognition. That is actually what your team needs

is for you not be that person for you to be able to leave and have them not just delivered the same way, but maybe even perform what you would do if you were here this idea, when we talk about working yourself out of it by the way guy kinder some police. The lad I just noticed a trend, I'm starting to get, and maybe it system an old in more. honorary about things but on the last podcast at last, be brief, podcast that we did. I was saying that idea. Like someone did so I just had that same reaction when someone comes means, as you know, the team You know they just don't do that. Well, when I'm not around, I just don't think they have the skills, I just don't think they get it, but luckily I can go round and straightened. When I hear that I dont, like you, so

Why is that? Why is it? Because that is absolutely your ego talking in its absolutely use stunting the growth of your son we're nets, and you don't even know what put your stunting your own growth too, because as long as your team can operate without you, you have to operate with your team. So you're not like you, I want you you're looking down and in setting up an out which is not what a leader should be doing should does leader have to look down and in some times absolutely sure should they be focused their most of the time. No, they don't look down and then should the. Team, go off the rails or even slightly off course. No, absolutely not so it's bad. If you look at the two scenarios as a leader And scenario: one is you're there with your team. Performing their awesome when you're gone, there's a dip in that performance and the other scenario is yours, team is so good that you being there is meaningless,

get better failures in there. They are just awesome Alla time whither without you and your absence doesn't prevent them from doing a good job. Which scenario is actually better for you for them for the organization? What's crazy about that? Is every single person every single person on planet earth will answer that book textbook correctly ever say. Well, obviously, it's the team that perform without me there, every single human will answer that question correctly, and yet a vast will not about, but many many of those people will be Situation and they will, they will cast is that correct answer in order to satisfy a gratify, their own ego, about feeling good and about feeling the team just can't do anything without me, yeah, and what kind of crazy about that is. In every organisation, have been part of.

if you was leader, get associated with every team, you're part of. Performs that well without you, what do we do with those people, nation that there are so good at leading. We don't need to show up on signing the more the time that teams gotta. What do we do? We fire those people they wouldn't need anymore. You did such a good job measuring and developing an evolving. Your team that, if you show, up or not. It really does it matter their due to go. We don't need universally, yet Dubai and that he does not. How doesn't happen with those people. The people get promoted, they get bigger responsibilities. They actually get the things that we all want and if your ego is telling me was a leader, your critical piece here you are required. This happen change them back of a little bit and look. There is nothing wrong with wanting to advance in an organization there's nothing wrong with wanting to be an influential leader. Nothing if you work yourself out of a job you're never gonna be without a job, because what organisations across the world need is leaders at all that good and there

always more problems and bigger problems and larger teams to lead. if not to say that this should be in your own self interest, us not why you're doing this, but the be that as it. If you're, that good as a leader they will never you'll never be without a job? working here. Somebody job Gary Tease, you do you have a job because that leadership capacity, what what teams will need more than anything so Here's something that you said. You said there is nothing wrong with wanting to get promoted inside of an organization which is an understandable statement. I wrote about the swedish attraction tactics. when people say oh, what's the best way for me to get promoted the best way for To get protest not worry about promotion. The best way for me to get promoted is actually just to do an awesome job. That's the best who I'm going to promote

Rocco who says: hey boss, I just did this knew was all on me and I definitely want you know I'd if we wanted to let you know that I have that I did a great job in that the team. You know we we did the project exactly how you want to want to let you know that, and I will play a big role or Are they promote Dave who says: hey boss? We got it done. No doubt I can do for you away day. The team before You know, I barely even did anything, but My team is so solid that I can just kind of sit back. Let me know if you need anything else, a wait, a second who, which would allow us to be where you can provoke totally It's so obvious. it's so obvious, but man that ego is a bastard thing is so powerful that it will crush what use what it will crush the obvious. Your ego is stronger than reality. Your is stronger than the reality of the situation and its

crazy. I hear you're gonna go down his zeal, easy that is to see from the outside, and when I was thinking, as I conversation is something you talk about. All the time is is, is the difference, between leadership and manipulation and when you're doing something for your own best. dressed verses when you're doing something teams, best interest and how it sort of seems like maybe a little bit subtle. Just some of the actions are sort of the same and but for me outside it is night and day it's you draw the distinction between those two is a do. I want to be in a leadership role. Yes, I do because I think I can best influence the Tina make the successful which, in some ways you can see the similarities between the people who are out for themselves. They just want to be in charge, but if you change viewpoint from you, to any other viewpoint. It is oh easy to see

go, was stronger than reality meal to miss the reality that we were seeing like they're, just seeing it in real time in that's, that's something were able to do and see it. and the thing that's crazy, but it's not just us additional front that comes in and see that its helping them recognise their entire. Everybody else sees it. Everybody yeah waiting. You think that people don't see you maneuvers you're just wrong and you you're just so wrong. They everybody sees your little maneuvers, so did we, this problem solved. What was the resolution here yet Most of these once we're talking about you. This is a good leader, isn't a leader who just struggle a little bit with some of the finer points and there's a couple decentralized command that needed to get better part of the reason why I was able to go beyond that.

Ex level of granularity is opposing. Ok, you're, having a decentralized command problem was kind of high level obvious answer, or the ownership answer is that there was a Jew, Anyone interest in wanting to feel way. What am I doing wrong? What am I missing? How do I help my team? Get better and with mindset in that attitude it makes helping solve is wrong. a lot easier, and it was really just that- I think the peace that missing is recognising when you- team, it's more of that and they perform that action, freeze. You up to do what you just described. Most people, don't think they're, subordinates come and say, I've got more bandwidth for you. What do you need for me and you just you explain that do not hate my team made. It all happened. There good goes matter of fact. I kind of didn't really do anything. got some white space on my calendar went up. how many times have you do? Have the donor, not common conversations. Those don't happen all the time, and so it was a condition that it's in the best interests of you at the best answer, your team, that's

the all that was needed there in that sort, relatively easy fixed, but there's there's more to it. Then just you didn't use decentralized command right. So where's your pragmatic. What did you give for pragmatic solutions? Hey here's! What I want you to do yet The solution of this one was hey on each of those teams that she's pie running for five different projects aiming hence the need to those team to have one or two folks that are are kind of trusted ages that you can rely on them to do this and he was able to name them immediately, like perfect, them develop. What the plans to be for the time that you're not there, what some of this matter or and let them lead to the project and run those metrics to be delivered, You come back to brief you up to speed on where they're gonna be it would just be. Are we putting them in charge and letting them know? they are going to do all she's gone and what you can there's been a brief you on so when she comes back the next week was boss. These are the four things that you said: we're tracking in the three days, you were gone I'll brief you Friday afternoon, at that, to get going to get here really

and all through the things wrong track. You know she got to do coup look up and out good work, I'm totally so that was the pregnant approach, which was identify, the things that you see or the areas a weakness is somebody capable of leading and met and managing those in measuring those with the team. In real time and let them we that We wrote about in the dichotomy of leadership, big Walt who was a dynamic seal chief and you just rawdon stuff and so on. During training operations, you just run everything, and so what we do, we just kill anyone who just put him down you're down it's so mad, but then you'd gets. the team start to step up a meat because the thing it's here you be the crutch for your team and- and that's like the thing I would say in a situation like that as yet: hey, hey Dave, Norman Begone. You can offer them and anyone you come up with a plan when I show up I'm not gonna

our fear with anything ominous eight looks good man looks good, keep keep Rowan, I'm I asked you a couple questions just just to get some fact. that I might need, but I want to be perfectly clear that you don't need me, and you need to rely on me- and I was thinking about this- I read about in- I think its leadership charging tactics is I had this- operational readiness exercise when I was at school team to and its way getting graded to see if you're ready for deployment and it's a big deal- and I put I put Junior e five as the platoon as the patrol leader on that operation, and it was gone everything and he briefed it, but at an eye, talk about in the book out. You know that the guy was that the guy that was grading us was kind like we do second you're having your junior year. I've conference, my guys they know what they're doing don't need me to run everything

your magic. What that seemed like to him. Did you two? Even imagine I even think what you just said that what it I have seen like to him to have somebody who was graded, solicitor, hamburger, prepare you ve or or clear you to go on to plan its also making other. Obviously the Europe Fitness Report, Europe, Oh you waken. Obviously this is a time where it's gonna get looked at and people might say no job has been drum. You didn't you very well in the operational readiness exercise or exit, saw em, look I got you home when I want to have my junior guy a new guy, a new He's gonna run this operation ominous it I stood up. I stood up like we. We are all prepared to give the patrol order. The pillow we're us we're all in there that the conflict Man comes in who's, gonna, be like grading us saw when he comes in winter. Our standard attention attention on deck, sit down every sits down. I stand up. I go served for coming here. Platoon we're gonna go sir

patrol the patrol leader for this operation is gonna, be petty, are second class someone so go ahead. I sit down look on his face was like dank so Imagine that imagine how much confidence you have win an e when your most junior guys gonna run the operation at how much loyalty did you create an? How willing is petty, Oscar second class, much work and how hard is seeking to work to make sure that there is a zero chance. He fails you how much energy is gonna put in to make that happen, and if you again, if you just see from that and have somebody else tell the same story of the light that you're living and go this. What I did and see that go. Oh, my god! That's that's that's what I should be doing: yeah by the west. All that, because that's what Malta, Charlie did to me at the company Did it with an actually home. Now he put us in charges so much. It was totally insane he put in charge of everything. So we we would.

We are so much more experience because we briefing we were. We were coming up with plans and then confidence from here chain of command from deal from his boss, like through the roof, tell you do it meant? Well, Some case anybody's wondering out there. how's everything I've ever done. I stolen from somebody to include the things were doing right now without a doubt, check good sound, like we got that will solve. What's next working with a company that dumb started working with air, their executive leadership team, so there their senior management, Ill Chiefs and and Vice president's kooky leaders workin. them for a while. They initially brought us and they want to suggest help, help deliver some principles so that team and help that team grow at UN dont really well and they ve been doing it. They they their pushing down The things that are learning down to the next where's the leadership,

ex layer leadership their working with it's kind of a mid level management, it somewhere between them and the front lines, and that gone pretty well and what their seeing is one hold down. Other frontline supervisors, the frontline leadership, theirs um, there's resent there's friction, there's something going on and they almost seen as if as it's moving down it's it's stopping a little bit. The momentum of they created the movement or through the organization has gone, is asked as they like and they're trying to figure out. How do we break through that it so that next level so. We joined them on a call. It kind of work through this particular problem and again as describing it as we're thinking about it. There is this kind of large his answer, which was eight. If you want them to sort of owners, would go, then restart, embrace these principles and do the things that you are doing. You have to go, them ownership, you ve, gotta, given them achieves

the example, but you have to give them ownership and courses. We know that's right But this crew, that women working with is a really sharp crew. They under stand what we ve been doing and there is again kind of another level here and as we started looking at what the issue was from their level: to the next level too that third level the trying to get through is they are describing. What some of these problems are? They couldn't explained the problem quite as well as they could explain their own problems, hey here's the issues I was having with my management team, but, as Erics described the problem, the management teams having with the supervisory level that makes open- and they didn't quite understand the problem- they couldn't really diagnosed what it was in an option It's working together, these schedulers on the frontline folks and what that allowed me to do is. Plagiarize, you extend,

if we actually pull something we talked about on the podcast not too long ago, which was cut pulling down more deeply oil in the principles we were talking about, and actually what we want we talked about here was some and when we teach the principles they they are. There almost viewed as as the government is its it that's what this government you don't think it's own element, don't entity, but actually inside it with their smaller, more deep, Build composer. Living inside of building relations, working well as a team, and if you actually understand what the problem is at that level, where friction. Is it that lower level you you you have to know what their perspective is, you Have to be able to see it through their eyes, and so what we talked about is the deeper piece of giving them. Ownership was actually before you can do that. You have to. keep your ego and check you have got a detached was going and the biggest thing is, you have to see the issue through their eyes.

You have to have that perspective and there's a lot more to come. More than just saying you want to have, good relations, somebody interest building a strong relationship, because the relationship on itself what The issue is the ability to understand what problem they were dealing with. So we started talking about the back of those three Elvis's, three little components inside of cover move and how hard, it is to have their perspective. In the perspective of the supervisor whose leading an individual team on site is there dealing with real time an immediate time restrictions we have to go. replace a filter on this apparatus out the field this house be done today by two o clock because actual five we're bringing in whole new system is gonna run through that filter. That's going infiltrate throughout throughout the site, and that is a real time constraint. There is no sitting back for strategic. This is this gotta get done. This is a technical thing right now and the eggs

management team. The senior leadership team has been viewing a lot of these problems and this larger, broader lens and don't really understand some of the issues in the frictions that they're having and the kind of think that those there's really are insignificant as they are the kind of marginalizing downplay those time restrictions. And the supervisors think it hey all this if you're talking about its great. But if I don't get this filter change right now, right now I'm not going to be able to get all these are things that affect your bottom line and the way that their that done is there there being. Hand in their leadership they're just making their people What you think is going to happen, and there is a gap in the prospect five of the singer leadership and this frontline leadership, and that that gap in perspective has made a huge change in person. Of how to get them to understand the principal still apply to them at their level. So when you say that got to get this filter changed by two o clock is that we were taught,

although we are you talking about- it's not a metaphor, its hey. I know that you want me to sit through this leaders, training class, but I've gotta get this thing change by two o clock now in it? It so drop a little more fidelity. What was it we're down the supervisor level where I'm now supervising the team that does physical work on site? scheduler, I'm operations, guy together we're was to build a plan that meets all the intent and and I've got a walk order, for they have got thirteen different tasks. I gotta get done you me schedule wit I do the work. You inside of some other things. I don't course, as we know, this filter fits effects. This team, but I'm gonna, work order. You and I are supposed to work together. We're supposed to cover move or was built. A relational universe have a good operating relationships. We can make these things happen our sugar? That level isn't like that You show up as a schedule, and you say you get it. This is, as I say, I can't do this, because I've got to do this in this and then what happens as you- and I had this a whole bunch of friction,

and the sooner leadership team is thinking Hague, us you to build your relationship, improve your relationship and that's going to solve your problems and were we're worse. Stuck with reality, which is, only way for me to get schedule to see it. My way, is for me to arm wrestling you until seal yeah. So here Here's a pragmatic, tactical solution to what you're talking about when When I come to you Dave and I say: hey you need go, and you know dig this trench. You say I can't. Because I've gotta go change this filter. My immediate fought should be ok, Dave, it's right! There's the Davies legitimately right about what he sang right now and he cannot

though, dig that trench because the filter has to get changed so then my next thing is ok Dave what time, Are you going to do that and also. do you want what makes that a high priority for you? because what you might not know is that if we don't dig that trench we're not going yet the footing in place so that we can bring the truck in that, actually will deliver you the filter. So what is happening why are we able to talk to each other in and come to? conclusion that actually make sense, so This means that, though the way, if you do that the pragmatic way that you do that could sure it's like hey. I knew I need to build a better relationship with Dave. What does that mean what it means I go into the situation? the mindset of hey, you know what, if

Dave gives me resistance, he's got a reason for it, and I should actually listened to what he has to say and then try and figure out how we can come to a conclusion on that a lot of times. People don't do that and any other problem here is when you ve got something that I dont understand that's my fault that I dont understand it, but more important, more important, it's mine, all that I haven't created a culture where you will raise your hand and say: hey boss. We actually he had do that, ensures why, by the way boss, if you can lay out the priorities, so I understand why I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm.

be able to support you, because right now, I'm trying to support this other objective that I heard about three days ago, which at the time was the biggest priority. So let's talk, let's I know that sounds crazy right. It sounds crazy to think that you and I have a conversation about what it is, we need to get done that we might be able to actually come to a resolution together. That makes sense. Yes, it does, I'm crazy, maybe because we ve been doing it, but I understand what you're saying and actually do the resolute practical resolution that we applied to this, the thing that we did to help them take the principles. You know that work and help them be functional. Is The man during the supervisor that, conversely, what what should I do so sit down your supervisor and help prepping for the next meeting with the schedule and when the schedule comes in with the schedule and the plan and the flow did, he thinks that you should do you know

why you're operations led to do what I said say: ok, we'll do that we're gonna. Do it your way. I want to get a better understanding of why you're flow is the way this. I need a better understand how the scheduling process works, and so let's go your point as it look at you, identify something that could be catastrophic for the team. Let us know, but what s the likelihood if you just due to the schedule, is way something catastrophic. What happened you can't live as I want. Nothing catastrophic can happen in my cool, then Do his way to say: ok, let's do that and for the four I said, What do you think the schedules gonna say or do when you're, action guy says: yeah we'll do it your way. And he also out, as is his knocking, know, what's going on, because all we ve ever done as argued with each other, and we ve almost had fought over this in that I suggest do that and don't do just a kind of fall into a fine. What everyone do it and say? Let's do it that way and pay attention. Why we're doing this? Because I want to understand your

priorities as scheduler, better sinuous do that for a couple of weeks and see what happens. and what happens is the most obvious thing? Is the schedule or no longer comes at that meeting waiting to fight? He doesn't think what happen. If you're gonna come in with your whole list of things and you're gonna go out and comes in expecting for the first time, I might get as much resistance and guess what he's gonna be willing to do when you finally push back can we swap task too Seven here I've got this, thing, that's getting deliberate but is allocated to the afternoon, and I can not got three and four. Would you let me, but at annual say? Actually we can do that, and it was this it's its took move. It's always. It's discovered cover just relationships, the inability to understand at that level what their dealing with but were within to dealing with the same thing. that the ceo is dealing with and when you have your team, walk into a relationship and say sure we can do your way and it has been like that the

some of that and it was such an easy fixed to apply, but what was lacking, as is the perspective of what they were dealing with the schedule. thinking voluntarily, to the whole thing falls apart and guys. Thinking about this on a two fold involves apartment reality. Nothing really falls apart. Maybe it's not optimal. Maybe it is, but for me to get to the outcome that I now know what optimal as I can. robot myself, I actually need you you're the schedule. You can't do you need me cause I'm doing the work and the best relations can have, as it were, working together in the best way to get out of me to walk in and go let us do your way. Man had been resisting this autumn, I'll, even a white. Your priorities are walk me through. It I'm her broom might might my filled with me. We're run through this whole day, let's do this task for next week's ass, the others place up. I wonder how many fights were over six one half dozen, the other totally and How much time was spent arguing about six? One half the other. We could have actually accomplish three of the tasks for the day. Just making those things happen, I wonder how much things improve when

go in with a unified goal, doing things in the best possible order. Now, my where your way, but just in the best possible were that supports our mission. we're trying to get done. However, Did the schedule go back to tell his team hey how that meeting a savings, it always yedo total nightmare and then came back the first time. We have a meaningful action. What it went really well and on this on the product I had a meeting scheduled go. Think it entails a total nightmare, and this is stupid. You gimme, as I actually again we're gonna. Do this not for these reasons and how quickly the rest Tim goes, oh Cool that surrounds us- and let us go, do that and the ability to remove, resistance by just letting someone else explain and show and do what they want to do long enough for them to return the favor. I should do the same with you to help you get to that often while come, and it was the same thing that we do the route it whatever its cause,

move it's just what governments but having to figure out those little details of what is the real friction point there that you're not see if you, if you think about what a disruptor think about what a disruptor ego can be recovered move. If you think, about what a disruptor you can be to cover move you will find that it is primary disruptor of cover move. Because The last thing that I think I should have to do is due these things in the order that Dave says, I'm he's doing work who the hell is bathed come here and tell me what order to do women there, you go you're disrupted, Now we don't have a good relationship now we're fighting over something that is not worth fighting over. that's why we talk about relationships all the time when it comes to cover move and how well do we form relationships if we let our ego get in the way we do. form good relationships,

got ass, this the other day hey. How does your former how'd you find good relationships when you got to the top? to remedy and your work with the army in the marine corps? How do we form relationships with them we want and that Hake? What can we do to help you guys up? Not The Navy seal, where you guys need to give us support now, too you guys Circuit Board is what can we do to help you out support may your ego is the first step to forming a good relationship who to hang around her They have a relationship with someone that just thinking about themselves. Who is that who is that person? that person doesn't exist once again, let's play the game. If I walk into the to the to the new too to the to the team leader and I say: hey objects, Go this one I run and we're gonna rely on you and you better be there to back this up when we need it and then walks and goes hey. This is what ironic good to meet you. Here's the capabilities and I have let me know how we can help you out who we gotta have relationship with. it's all freaking

obvious, and yet do after day week after week, year after year, we have to show people a reflection of themselves. mere, and they get to see their ego get to realise that that ego is an ugly thing all right. We almost cut it under a half our good place to stop, and if you want you dig into these topics of leadership, in any arena, you can join Dave and me in the rest of the echelon front team at E F, online dot com, where what we do is solve problems through leadership. You have questioned, you can come there and actually ask me you can actually ask Dave we're on in this new virtual world this new

down world weapons and further computer screen communicating with each other we're there. You can ask us, We also have a little bit deeper level of leadership. we can give inside organizations. We have leadership, consultancy, echelon, front dot, com. If you want us to come and work with your team, go unchecked, our most or in a bunch of books about leadership, extremists but dichotomy got a leadership strategy and tactics. You can check those out have some other podcast. Where I talk. Jocapa podcast is the man one Jacko unravelling with Darrell Cooper grounded with ECHO Charles and the war. Your kid Todd cast with the almighty uncle Jack and if you want to support any these bond gas, including this one, you can

some gear from jock restore dot com or origin main dot com. Thanks for listening to us, as we debrief no go led. This Dave and Jacko out.