This is the Jacko unravelling Podcast episode, three with Darrell Cooper and me Jocker willing to keep going on around a bigger. If you have somewhere go go first, I want to know a little Jacko. Little seamen recruit willing who joined in ninety. Ninety you taught us last week last episode, you come into the you come into the seal teams in the ninety nine and sure warrior lookin for a war. The nineties are a little bit of a dead zone. Well, you gotta remember partially accurate, but, as we already talked about warrior looking for a walk, In the delayed entry programme, through the summer of ninety ninety, as this build up is happening. I'm thing I'm gonna get exactly what I asked for I am super pomp about that. You know

I'm ready Rock n roll. I think that this in my guess it I want to earlier park ass. I thought there was that there were reports. Is forty thousand don't forty thousand casualties in the first forty eight hours and I'm like oh yeah. They need me they're going to need me to help win this bad boy, cause I'm young and dumb and re Rock n roll. So then, when it was over, then I'm in buds and it's over in buds and it's over. So now I'm thinking, okay, what's what what's going to happen and you know showed up Then it was peacetime, peacetime teams, which is not not what you dream about when you're, when you're young lad, go in the teams, gaunt group seal training, you think you're just going to and I was dumb ass Jane who simply want, and I found there is Emily Vietnam, like email Gulf wars over that's, ok, seals were seeking around the world doomsday everywhere. You don't just.

Our true just not true it is. It is kind of true now, in fact, I'll go and say it is true. Now like there are things happening around the world all the time, That's the way it is now that's post September, eleventh pre September eleventh, there was doers years No, I knew guys that were master chiefs that were in the seal teams for thirty years came in a nineteen, seventy one and retired and ninety in two thousand and one and they never fires shot Nigger. Oh yeah, the nineties was was not was not good from a prospect. I want to go to war and look man, I'm sorry, everybody that. That that's what I wanted to do with my life. I don't know to tell you I guess. Let's

happy that I didn't want to be a criminal or I didn't want to be a gangster or I didn't want to be a murderer. I wanted to be a seal and want to go to war. That's the way it was, and it is I'm sorry That's the way it is but the wages- and I can tell you that was up another model on he's, not that sorry any inanimate alone, there's all kinds of young men- and I don't know where we it from where it comes from, Part of our instinct is what is to fight wars. Tell you where it comes from is when you look at people like a kite in Iraq who ended up taken over large sections of the country in two thousand for fun Five and six, who do you want to send after them people have this idea that the american military, because it so technologically advanced in we ve, got all this just access to so many tools and in toys that other people don't have that

but our soldiers are sort of like skilled labour and that's not snag our works. You know you need people who we're gonna go in unless you're, unless you're sort of itching for the fight you not be ready to handle, handle the kind of thing you guys had to deal with over their yeah, and it is weird, though, to think that there's a bunch of people that their that thou Wanna go fight. Like that's a weird. If, if you think about it, We from a basic human instinct right is survival right self preservation that a basic human instinct, the last June. Are you sign up for with that? Instinct is gonna, be some kind of a soldier on but a war. So it's a little bit tricky to understand. It's a little bit tricky to understand and even if you go Ibiza, we know people fight right, but you know you got on a Friday night and day,

down wherever there's me, some fights. And that's the way it is but and I guess you don't out of those gallows fights a break out. Some of these people are going out looking for fights just a human instinct, and I think you take that to next time when you got people like me that that want to go to war and again AIDS, knowing what I now know about war and understanding at a deeper level. I do say: hey, I'm sorry, that's the way it is but also, I am sorry that that's the reality and I'm not gonna lie about it. And to tell you are you know when we nine eleven happened. There wasn't a joy, pardon me that was saying, oh cool. Now I get to go fight, you know, if yes, tragic and horrible, and how dare they but someone's gonna have to avenge this, and thank God that someone is me and my friends so that no one asked about that parts of this drive to go to

war. I do wonder if some part of it for people as they have you intuition, that dumb people of their friends, they are really great friends, and those friendships were usually made great during the most difficult times of those people's lives, the guys who were therefore them. You know through a difficult break up or whatever it was those of the times when those friendships get forged, and I think maybe people have in intuition that when you enter into a human experience with that level of intensity something like war, it's really nice. It's a level of intense human experience, is not really accessible to most people in any way. In a normal life. Lesser criminal that you're going to experience that for free, You was it that you wanted to go to war. Was there some party you that, like you, were gonna, go to war with your friends? You were going to be part of this thing with other people.

We will reach you thrown out some nice Little Bay sign out then turned him. Maybe you sound like I had this altruistic, you dictator phone worth my friends in the way before I had any friends you know in the military, I still had that feel this last time, I appreciate it. I appreciate you trying to be local trying to make me look like a good human, but hey man. Let's face it. There's there's there's a group of humor. That have I, every person has some sort of natural proclivity towards something right observe this before when, when, when some people walking around as a tenure old and they see a businessman in Aceh with a briefcase. They think that looks cool like they think that guy's got power, look school. They see someone else than this firemen, and they got that looks cool. I want to do that. Their debt,

they see an astronaut legal. I want to find a space where they see whatever you name the occupation and there's people and you additional asked front. I work with people that what love, doing their job like that's what they love doing. What you love your job right, that's what you love doing trick: okay, cool! That's what my natural thing was. I really wanted to do this job and you weren't to be a model, so I definitely was going to be n, N, N, n n- I I don't know that I really would have been so I wouldn't Been silken, I don't know that I could have been as committed as I was to anything else. I can imagine trying to trot trying to have some other job that I would have been this Did you now? I learned through

military and through this you'll teams. That commitment was a good thing and that I could kind of fake commitment. I feel, when I went to college the Navy sent me to college from two thousand and from two thousand to two thousand and three, and when I went when I went out, I faked that I was into did really well. Why? Because I made it my job and I guess there- still tied into you? No, I guess not at the same time ensure those that was just a lot of you. That was just ego, are meant to be number one. That's me I want to make this happen. It was easy, go versus the professors. Oh, you think you're, smart cool! You give me any ask me any question about Europe asked, and I'm gonna know it in that that's what I was the attitude. I made it into a game. I put my go driven by you and you thought about think right, I'm not saying it was my ego and I should put not around my ego. Let me do well in college. I didn't want.

Get shown up by a professor, I wanted to be two to do too. Go to battle with my professors and win. You know, so that's what I did, and so there are some false starts in the nineties. I think I remember you saying before that you are on a ship off the coast of Africa, while Rwanda was going on in the air tonight or is there might have been. Sometimes we thought. Maybe this is never that may arise in part of that Somalia. Our was not close, a small you're that same deployment. We had our gear loaded time I loaded out like we loaded out our weapons loaded our gear hatter web gear filled with ammo and grenades and they are- we were ready on that? One is in any three. This was in more. This was in ninety four oaken any force, forget what had happened, but there was no something going on in Somalia and his after we had pulled out it was you or maybe we the process we are in the process, but one. Had sprung up, had sprung up and-

it's actually surprising. If you were to ask me this pre nine eleven, I told you the entire the entire enemy, order of battle. I wanna know everything indigestion you because that was- time my homeland Our I I literally can't even remember right now what was happening if it wasn't for want being this massive genocide, private remember that either because we are so, not to go on out one and we didn't go and do anything and you are just spent in that deck age is sharpening the edge and then Tuesday morning nine hundred and thirty or so in the morning. I guess it was. I was on the east coast. I was actually just over by Arlington at the time when it happened would have been early in the morning here, but you get up at four hundred and thirty. So you would have been aware.

Nine hundred and eleven happens, and not only are we going to war, but you are being fed in anime that it's not a little ambiguity here. This guy's flying planes in a civilian buildings you're not being asked to go invade Vietnam, for maybe a reason that half the country doesn't understand. This is a this is a bad guy and you're. What's your rank at this point, what are you in two thousand one and two thousand one on the lieutenant Junior great, so I had been commissioned? I got commissioned in ninety ninety eight. I did a tour at seal team to an actual team to I promoted from Ensign to Lieutenant Junior grade and promoted to Lieutenant Junior Integrated was like the day I left I was, I was only killed too for two years and then and a junior grade and then take the navy. Seventy college had been ecology.

And while I was in college, I automatically made lieutenant. But I had made lieutenant yet so yeah was a lieutenant junior great going to college and so you are nine eleven happens and you're a seal officer and you're ready to roll. You ve been sharpening edge for ten years almost or I guess it would have been about ten years, point and I do you have in your head, the First Gulf WAR a little bit like the sinking of the over, pour out his honest, worried. Absolutely scared that I'm gonna miss it. I could the officer detail or who is a friend of mine? Who, I said: hey you know, Sir, pull me out a cock, a thousand college? I still had two more years, a college and like it was. I was graduating in two thousand three and I said, and this is a nightmare for me this is a nightmare so I want to be one of the seals who didn't. He does now many combat when everybody else go, it's a nightmare and so on.

All this, the seal de Taylor, who is who is a friend of mine, I had worked for him, he's a great guy areas. It sir, please, please just get me out of school. I'll get my degree online. I have no reason to be here. I can go. I Gill Ready, and he said This was in Afghanistan and Iraq was coming up. This is like September twelfth right you guys, if you want to go to Afghanistan or where, wherever we're goin, I'm gonna, give you told me we're invaded in matter He told you invading sorry, Denmark, Denmark, whatever I bring it, I'm ready Rock n roll and. With which it which is interesting because of I'm saying these remarks like about how excited and fired up and motivated and an dumb? I was, and that's where we have leadership: Pino. That's why we have leadership. We have leadership, and that's why I became a leader and as a leader like that's what,

the military work. If you got guys that are ready to champion the bit right, and sometimes you guys got people at- are chomping at the bit and what you have to do is leadership to find a balance. You could get people for not trouble. You got to push him it's either time for the big go to pull in the reins. You know and I'm going to tell announcement. Is you have guys just upon the reins on, and I almost always I almost always produced guys that I had to pull the reins on. I reinforced behaviour that was aggressive. That's what I did so all Had dues polaroids cause, that's a much easier job. It's much your job, so that way I set myself up, that's the best culture that I produced. You worked for me. I would be was pulling the reins on you and people that people that need to be pushed, they want really front runners for me and they probably would find themselves in different situations, so when I'm saying is.

Trusting you, don't I'm telling you like look, I would have invaded Denmark if they put the target on Denmark. I will go. You were joking about that, but that's what think about you know when you're, no leadership position, that's what you ve got an especially pre, nine, eleven, this early phase of the war. Ray body was worried, and so this is this the interests. I call my deterrence at hey Boss, please, to a team or go to any team or take any job. And he says to Me- Jacko this war is going to last a long time. And I didn't believe him, and I don't even know if he believed himself because all the lessons that you know that you talked about that we learn. Unfortunately, hey we can kick their ass really quickly. There not they're, not a form of lent me Bobby. I believe that at home, sure he must have had some sense of that. Maybe His sense was that this was a gonna, be a broader, longer kind of global, low intensity conflict, and there will be plenty of time for me to do on operation here.

Or operation there, because back in those days I spent most of my career training for an operation like if you lucky you. Ah singular real mission like like I would have done in small. You like, I would have done it in Rwanda, head given us the go one mission I would have been totally happy and sword I think in his mind now what I'm reflecting on it. He was probably thinking pay this year, global war. It, alas, a long time, we'll be striking targets for the next twenty years or that probably the next next three or four This will be striking these kind of terrorism gets around the World probably what he was thinking. The other interesting thing about this is is I was talking to him. I m. Actually, I saw him and his wife a few months ago several months ago. Actually- and I was talking about hey- I remember when I called you after September eleven than he

He said he, everyone called me so so the reality as your jacket was fired up so as every other seal that was not a seal team, was call in trying to get to a ceiling whelp. Ninety seven percent of the seals that weren't at us building who may be ninety percent were that there were they wanted to go. They wanted to go get in their souls. Had a reworked omission image I mean you guys. Are you gotta? Have Ghana stand? You do in mountain warfare maybe you and some of the higher risk missions, but semi conventional missions allow that well, the You wanna talk about, reworking your mission I had never done any type of vehicle assault until about maybe a month before we left for Iraq, the only time we would use vehicles. Would call him he low trucks because Was to stimulate helicopter because you can

we get how accomplished for your training evolutions, so we would get in the back of us. You know of six tonnes or whatever and or six by and and drive up to a target area, get out and pretend we just got out of our continent, we didn't look you ve never even made sense to us that there was a viable combat sis a humvee, and it is actually kind of crazy because it's not just. I can tell you right now and I need a seal that says anything different would be full of shit. You know Is we had these this this vehicle called it d PV desert patrol vehicle? Would you like us all doom bug is buggy looking thing and like that was kind of a thing, but it will almost like that, was this little specialised thing where, if you were gonna, do reconnaissance in the desert very specific you might use one of those there,

no way we're thinking, hey, ah, a sealed assault force rolling down. You know downtown Baghdad in vehicles. We just didn't think of it. We did didn't think of it and really are urban. Combat combat, I would say, are urban car assessment of urban combat, not our assessment, but our are. Deal that we would be engaged in these like way. Worker me in which is totally ignorant. If you think about it totally ignorant lemming. We would go and train. Let me please you we gone train for a month in the desert. We got the train from month in the jungle we train for three weeks in the mountains. We go a week, in the urban environment that we just didn't put it together. Even the somali experience in any Threed in really changed. Not as much as it should have ended as much as it should have. It should have been an eye, but What we know what that was, that was one mission, so

many of you who, just like I said, you're training for one mission. That was one mission. Oh well, that's kind of mission met. Pry won't happen again. I was a little little chance. Encounter happened to be in a city, you know we're we're. We are getting ready for these desert patrols, foot patrols. So are Our attitude had to shift very, very quickly and it did and and wanted- Best things about the seal teams is one of strikes, one where wages is, is that we don't have doctrine or we did. We have. We have doctrinal, we don't have doctrine, and so when we would do when we would do one of these desert raids on a desert target in training. Now would tell us exactly how to do it. We kind of figured stuff out you got passed down through oral history. And so we we didn't have a lot of doctrine,

we therefore, when missions changed for us, we could. We still know how to figure things out. Was this. That was the biggest strength we had was. We could be in a situation and go ok, here's here's the adjustments we need to make. How do we make these adjustments and we can make you and it seems, like you, Guys- probably had the expectation of being given a task and you ve got to figure out how to go accomplices task rather than kind of being too you're part of the war and you're gonna be handed some, draw high risk, you know high value emissions and so forth, but you're just part of the war and arm your detail. I told you to hang on that. You begin some action little did you know that the civilians uptown the deity and everywhere else, were cooking something up for you, yeah cause we I guess I guess it became very evident very quickly that we organ

going to Afghanistan, and so that kicked off and that's that kicked off very very quickly in a very, very quickly everything we had. We had troops nearby October October. Please only remarkable how quickly room to get people in there. Northern Alliance a star workin on yeah, but it was the same day that the planes at the towers and the Pentagon that people started talking about Iraq in the defence Department in the White House. Paul will forts of what Rumsfeld they were the ones pushing it early and it was that day they started talk about. Is there a way to connect Iraq with this? They had their own reasons. But last episode for wanting that guy out of their they're, probably worn a lot of ways, connection on Serbian, Sir you're kind of your kind of implying that They're looking to make a connection, almost Europe most implying that it was in a in a dish. Genuine way. I think,

or let me ask is: are you implying that I was a disingenuous, so I think that some of the civilians at the high level, specifically what role of wits in Rumsfeld Cheney, do degree that they believe there were good reasons to take out, sit on sane and go in there and do this and that this provided them opportunity to do it by doing that is so. I would agree: okay now that you ve gotta, taken taken that little nuanced adjustment, For me, I would, I would say their assessment was what we want is greater stability, and we want better secure, He and we don't want any of these areas where these kind of people can faster and grow we're here, we're looking at Afghanistan. Let's look at, I racked you, you know and should now now you you you take that attitude? And then you overlay that on top of Hey, this is the asshole that you know

did all these things in the Gulf WAR. This is the guy that try to kill my dad like all these. Are you overlay that? And now I you know I get it. All we learn from what happened in Afghanistan? We will We learn that you can't have bigger. Loss of territory that aren't under the firm control of states right because nobody to hold responsible for what goes on there and they become these festering sores. Where do we have problems? Somalia, Afghanistan, Mexico and a different way. You know they don't so much. You know not international terror. Anything but there's a large swathes of groups that are pretty nasty

down there. Controlling lords was a territory and we can decide it. That's not acceptable anymore. To just have these areas that are not really under anybody's control or even worse, are a state that is willing, ally itself with terrorists. I think they maiden tenuous and disingenuous connections to Saddam Hussein. I do think that in there I think that there's been people from the CIA and other places have come out and said that there were some people in the administration who in a we would tell them here's one side of the story, but here's the other side of the story and they were just ignore the other side of the story and, as part of that is disliking, o Connell, viruses and around nine yards and and and indeed you yes this is where we started touching on this subject earlier. This is where, as a leader as a decision maker, you you all, you have to take the time and do the whole do the mental homework to really and truly try

Understand what the other side of the argument is? You talk about this when you came on my back ass, you talked about the fact that you, when you were when you put upon cast together, you want to hear your kind bar that you're trying to set for yourself is that you can empathize with both sides of the argument, and that is a very important tool to have as a leader to not just look at the other side, the arguments it they're wrong, they don't get it do not make any sense that that is not the right thing to do, and in fact, whenever you know as a leader when you present me a plan or when I When you come to me- and you say, hey here's how I want to solve this problem, here's what I think about this and I haven't from opinion. My immediate reaction is ok. How is he right? That's my my my maybe reaction isn't isn't. Is there a wrong? My immediate reaction is how t right. How is he saying this Can I be wrong? that's my immediate reaction. So when we, yeah. When I hear reports like that that that the attitude

is here's what we think you come in here with your opinion and I'm just gonna disregarded, because I know better, that's an awful its arrogance, it ego, and it will drive to that decision, making yeah. I think that there were people in the civilian power structure who you know they were at mid and junior levels in those same in the same power structure, the deity and other places during the First Gulf WAR, they felt a lotta guilt over the fact that we had told the Shia and the Kurds encourage them to rise up and then stood aside whilst on on butchered them, and they felt that we that we ourselves a little bit by doing that and that we should have taken a guy out then what I, but I would I resent about the way that they handled it early on was, I feel, like. I think that they didn't trust the american people enough to give them the story straight rather than.

Lange everything out and sang. Look, here's the strategic situation, here's why we can't let disguise stay here anymore. Here's the keynote for for regional stability, reasons for monetary and humanitarian reasons, just lay it all out and let the american people make a decision about that. Instead, they kind of gambled on a few things now I'll give him like by all accounts. They all believe that he had stockpiles of WMD everywhere right, even if that was the case, he's a guy who perfectly willing to use those in irrational wildly irrational way. So if he had him, that's a very dangerous thing by all accounts these people were lying about. You know they weren't, making it up. They expected to find them. They were surprised when we didn't find them everywhere. I wish that they had not.

Roll the dice on making that the the front line of their argument. For sure- and this is this comes up all the time you got to tell people the truth about what's happening and when you tell people news about what's happening, then that that that- We have the ultimate positive result now an end to take out a little bit further when you are telling people that Ruth. That means you also tell them the truth about things that you don't know one hundred percent, because when you say listen we really think well that this gonna to keep and help stability we can have these areas were Al Qaeda could train. If they get paid afghan. They can easily come here. We can allow that to happen. This is unstable region by the way and also there is a strong possibility that there could be wet weapons of mass destruction there. So what do I do? these things are Hunter percent. No, of course not. This is what we're thinking and when, Instead, when you go out

air on a limb and you It's beyond just putting your all your eggs? One basket cause that's one problem, but then the problem was the level of certitude that they gave was because they were trying to sell it came across, with a lot of servitude. And you know, look man when you look at those overhead pictures, and you see you see, Congolese arising in June Powell. These highly respected people in the United Nations and the United Nations are all nodding. Had an agreement, hey man, like we talked about earlier. This is it this is coming from people in Tibet, the dorms own people that are saying yes, of course he has these things. Yes, yes, he asked them right Even with all that. You gotta give yourself and out as a leader in the you give yourself out as a leader is by now.

Being so egotistical and arrogant that you know, something hopes and Germany's things I know one hundred percent like almost nothing, there's almost nothing that I know a hundred percent and I will Nevertheless, very rarely will you catch me say This is the fact I just not going to say that you do haven't out and you lose time in conflict with people when you win express yourself that way, so I always joking people say if I ever tell you something like a hundred percent. If I receive Darrell this, what you need to do. One hundred percent I'm telling you this, then you should probably do it, because I will not you. You probably likely will never hear me say they like that. So those are some mistakes that I I think compound the mistaken you're talking. There was an element

within some of the brass up in the civilian leadership who, if each of these at this is this is from stories, have come out since then, as people have reported, including people on the inside, that the decision that we were gone after Iraq, it wasn't a debate. What are we gonna? Do we ve got hit on nine eleven? We gotta do some about Afghanistan, where else or our threats that there were some people in there and powerful places who made the decision were gone into a rack and we're going to figure out how to tie this thing here. I sell it at book by was it Bob Woodward what words got one and which he doesn't want to that one. I e the idea my favorite one on the early period up until that all five as fiasco by Tom Rick's. Yes, he and I should a review clause. I'm trying to think through these things, and I haven't thought about for a long long time, either of us on China's I'm trying to think through. You know what what like

these players, because there certainly were players and allow Were there in the first Gulf war- and we talked about before in one of the one of the things that happened, the Gulf WAR as the military people, the generals in the First Gulf WAR, including general pow? Who is now the Secretary of State, whose now quite sceptical of the idea of going into Iraq? He agrees to go to the? U N providers lend credibility to the two to the salesmanship, but he was worried about it and he was. He was counselling caution what he was doing, that in the First Gulf WAR too, he was near the generals at the time were saying: we want six carrier strike groups, we want overwhelming force because they were Vietnam, guys they didn't want to get bogged down into a quagmire and a lot of the civilians who were there at the time in the defence Department and restless,

our structure were there in the Bush administration of three in their hearing the same thing again from the military law to the military brass. Like wait a second here you want to do what they are a little more hesitant and the civilians woeful Whitson, never like Galileo. Can we ve heard this before we just it's just it's just how you guys are apparently and since then they had watched us just take apart. The Iraq he's in the first in in the in the Gulf WAR Use basically are power and some are not on some patrols and Kosovo Tachevah pretty

result there is so now and now we're in Afghanistan, and that has dragged on for nineteen years yet words couple years into that one and so we're thinking. You know, I think there are some people were little bit blog about it because they had the idea that, at this point, does nothing that the american military can't do that. There's just nothing! You can do wonder when the Kosovo thing was happening, kicked off and we announce its seal team to at the time and we started dropping bombs and like hit than you are free of the timing of it. But the timing of it played out that it kind kind of kicked off and maybe did so in in the afternoon, or something in overnight- wake up in the morning in theirs, but bombs being dropped and we to work and its heels into. We have quarters and where's we're all stand in there and you know there's a couple basic announcements that come out you know and then I'm not kidding like one of the admin girls gets up and, as I hate we're, having

potluck dinner on whatever so it's gonna start, this time. You know families are invited, or whenever one of high bodies says something along the lines of those kind of like one of those moments where the young I would use me six at the time, but you know barks out hey everyone, potluck dinner aside it We should wear out war right now. You know, and I got out- and I was laughed about that, because even that you're we started drop these bombs in everything. It was really really distant and again, this is for me all amp hoping to go to war brain for blah, blah blah endorse, a little war started and Evelyn kind of like an hour. Whatever you know we're going to drop some bombs. You know it's it seems so we'd and so small and in part look dinner aside? You know where a war right now and always at eighty six day and campaign over some you possess some sort

number of days very, very effective bombing and you know the first time we can. It looked around and said: hey. Maybe we don't need a boots on the ground to to win which no one ever said that in an even after that, you're going to go into into Iraq. Was Europe grow?

play boots on the ground still with your dad, but I'm sure some people going really the ground forces that the coalition did commit. Kosovo there was just driving around showing presents. One of my one of my friends was in the army, said that some some of the people took to calling a dabbing driving around and yeah. So you get up to two thousand and three and we're going into Iraq. That decision has been made around summer, two thousand and two a matter of selling it to the people selling it to the which allies of ours. We could we get into early two thousand and three, and there are global protest largest protests in history. As far as I know, thirty million people participated massive one hundred and sixty eight million people on February 15th or so much of which, by the way was you know, you would think something like that would be a globe,

we'll just a unless they were participating or known, knew somebody who knew something they never like. There were some protest, but the idea that there were these giant protest. I think most people pass right, biological. I don't remember anything that I can. I can remember it. I remember you know, is a three minute new story somewhere, that's about it and we end up going into Iraq, largely because is what Rumsfeld once do and lilies I'm just jump in Real Korea cause. I was gonna, bring us to present day what's happening. Something happened now for a covert, no virus. What you just said right, this is very standard win. A war scenario starts to unfold that you are going to get worse one half roughly of the population even after September 11th. You know: ok, Norton percent population after nine eleven Afghanistan day they had some. Do the cool go, get him by the time we ass for two years?

now we're looking at Iraq and you got at least half the population go an hour now and what- interesting about what's unfolding right. Now it is March it is March. Twenty fifth twenty slash, twenty were like in the in the middle of this Covin virus thing country shut down the mountain allowed to go out of our houses in California. New York is, you know, under serious pressure, so the whole country and the economy is at a standstill. That's we're out right now, Well, when you go to war with Iraq, where you go to war in Afghanistan, are you go to war with anybody? There's a whole group of Americans, that raise your hand and say no, and it doesn't matter who it doesn't matter, what the what the? What the causes? but even when we're gonna take out ISIS, why don't you you with their own self get war is just never good, and so

you get. Some level of resistance against the government. Right. There's some level of public outcry against Governmental decisions and what's been injured, think about this, and I think it's turning a corner right now. Is that this virus war. There's no resistance, there's no there's like in the end to see it now, but basically, Everything total? Where if we need to shut down the government. If we need to shut down the economy, it doesn't matter. This is all bad and look. Whether that's right decision, not we'd, know yet, but I do know this, there's almost no resistance. In case in point, you have both Democrats, Republicans during eight, the most distant vice of time we ve had in, a long time in Amerika I mean. Did you gotta go to Vietnam due to job

much divisiveness between and even in Vietnam, like if you talk to Ok, the civilian populous. There was more divided divisive the government was. Would you agree with that statement? Yes, so you don't in the city in New York City. You had construction workers and had hippies, and they were more. They were further apart. Then the Republicans and Democrats weren't battalion so right now. It's the opposite, actually, most amazing hence our closer together that its government, shows if the Republicans Democrats, that are so so separated ass, interesting until you throw this war against a virus and then all of a sudden, it's all hands on deck, we're all moving in the same direction. Now there's some disruption now, because this bill came through in the Democrats, the public's put The bill Democrats gave an added a bunch of our budget

things that they want to it and use we gotta dispute going on now, but probably all I'm saying is we have situation. Right now, where there is no, There is very much much more. Less resistance in the government is used to. It was gonna shocking. How rapidly we decided we wrote play with that. I'm in again, I'm not saying it's not the right thing to do. I don't know I'm not that guy, I'm not the expert on how to handle an epidemic, but if you would have asked me a couple months ago, what would it take for whole states to just accept being told stay in their homes for an indefinite period of time. I will said millions of people would have to be dying the streets otherwise, no way we would. We would accept that, but a kind of goes to show you for for as much as we like to complain when pollsters call us up and ask you like what do you think of the government? What are you of the media and all these other institutions, and we say I hate him ten percent. You know five percent approval rating that either

This kind of shows like the ease with which we handed over pretty authoritarian powers to the government, because the media, told us, there was something out there. That was scary and I'm not saying it's not scary, but now the information we had yet one hundred people that died shows that we actually do have a little more faith in our institutions and we like to pretend sometimes I think the other thing that made this a little bit of a port perfect storm is you had a lot knowledge. Alignment between the people and the government you, climate between the two political parties, and then you had this high level of alignment between. Social media and the real media. You know instead of there being you walk is it a finding? These extreme views a covert, nothing like after a couple weeks ago, you weren't really allowed to say that Europe it early on those people who to just flew who's, gonna get get it, don't care that got shot down

real quick in all this, and you had been the media that the bigger the big media and The social me all aligned with this is the point. Egg and we better get it under control. It was interesting to see how the social media kind of more mentality that is usually mobilise for political correctness, issues and things very quickly, though a network Scott mobilized for this, for it wasn't listening to see how that works? I don't know, maybe that's the first time that its jumped, you know, have jumped issues like crazy towards ya. It's crazy to watch so in situation, go into Iraq here yeah we had. We had resistance from the people against the government if not you, don't obviously wasn't unified resistance there

a lot of Americans that play yeah cool in March two thousand and three I was either it was either pure Gallup biggest pulled. It was running time in March, two thousand and three seventy four percent of them are sport, the war, that's why you're fucked! You will not find anybody who was of of age. At that time you subdue sport warrant who doesn't know psych funny. That's twenty acres, calling to the Poles three out of every four people dead, but I

cannot find anybody who admit to it now. Well, you talked about the generals and the politicians learning bad lessons from the First Gulf war. So did all of America and all of America said you know what let's go over there and kick some ass, and we we took the lesson and are in our leaders, indulge this from Kosovo and the First Gulf WAR. That war is primarily about liberation and freedom and getting rid of tyranny, and that's what war is primarily about when war is not primarily about those things: wars about suffering and destruction and death, and we let our forget that because of the nineties, because of the way things went the nineties and um, you know we we let ourselves forget that to our detriment, because if we would have gone into the war with clear eyes, you know we would have been more prepared for the sheet for the shock of the violence when it hit us yet and if you go into war, think

does this thing that I would say, he's got to go in the water with the wheel and its two wheels wrapped up in that the wheel to kill in the world to die and if you dont, if you think, you're gonna go into war and you'd, think you're not gonna, kill people and by kill me, I'm, gonna kill civilians, you're, gonna, kill, kids, there's gonna, be babies. Murder are killed by air bombs and machine gun fire. Going to be some of your soldiers are going to lose their minds and do some horrible things. Like that's going to happen, that's going to happen you don't think that's gonna happen. You're wrong, you're wrong older and died, and that first night upon you for anything when you are wrong, if you think that- and if you think you can get in and out without taking any cost, is on your side, if you think you're not gonna be put an american flags over over caskets you're wrong and so yes, I totally agree that when you come off of you, Actually little escalation in the in the year

in the niceness of work as you go from the Gulf WAR with we took some way, some casualties in the Gulf WAR, lotta more friendly fire, but you know there was Americans killed but then you go from that Kosovo. Whenever you like, wait a second failure. We use You track the you track, the trajectory from Vietnam. The Gulf WAR and now in Kosovo, where they way we can pull this off. And I guarantee there were people thinking. You know what ok we're there may be. Some people were killed genome, but we're we're gonna be all right and there was the provide comfort example where we could have yet we pushed the iraqi forces back and made room for the Kurds and the Kurds moved in and they you know they created or bill. As it is right now, it's pretty nice place to be relatively speaking, so we we had this idea and all you got to do is get rid of some of the bad people break down the bad power structures, the oppressor power structures. You know there's a I got. I love trolling, my libertarian friends and

I told them that you know there was a libertarian streak in the Iraq war planners. They say what what? What do you mean we're against war, yea, your against war, that's fine, the aid the impulse. The idea that all we have to do is go in there and get rid of Saddam's regime and then since ass, not their freedom will break up. Everything just sort of you know, it'll just take over. There become Vermont Democrats overnight and it s not how works Freedom is something that exists in a hot house environment. You know we're orders, enforced and security is provided and on yeah, I'm always shocked. I don't know why it would be wasn't in position to have to make these kind of calls back. Then. Obviously, and I hate you know, I always refrain from like armchair general ship and I can't stand people who do that kind of thing. I get a little resentful and frustrated where I see civilians making decisions

motivated by politics, but it seems like across the board. Nobody really expect there to be an insurgency. The civilians didn't expect it most of the generals in expected. Some did some had something to say about it, but they were in a position to you know, took two to really have their voices heard

and so we had military leaders who even then even still not expecting a full blown insurgency were asking for three or four hundred thousand troops to secure the country, and they were told we don't need that many means they felt that the war would be politically more difficult to sell. If we had to tell people were sending, you know three hundred a fourth out a foreigner thousand troops over there, and so we end up going in with one twenty one. Thirty, I think something like that and the first part of it. It goes the way. First, Gulf WAR, one right the: U S, military, does what it does that does want they honour just before we get to far beyond this. You know when you talk about what you think's gonna happen. Is you create a a Crete and

opportunity for freedom and freedoms, gonna break out. That's what's gonna happen. What I think happens is you have to establish an environment for freedom and then it's going to take a number of generations for people to be able to own that freedom and not an end it flourish because you know when you ve got generations. So two thousand and three what we're talking about twenty, almost twenty five years. Under this brutal regime regime you got, you got people that are absolutely conditioned for you know to be to be too to fall under the the orders of violence that are their condition for an end for them,

ok, I'm on board, with whatever you want to do boss. You know I I recently had a russian thereon on my part cast him. You know she was in in other words, an outward survivor and the newest just complete compliance by the Jews, and if they got told hey you, don't go put your family in the oven. You go put your family in the oven because the alternative was instant death and and so how long's it taken. First, when you do that two generation upon general generate, ongoing generation there now they don't even know what to do when you give them freedom. So what you have to do is you have to give them a taste. You have to start, you have you have to get them? We have to get them addicted to freedom right, you have to let you have to protect it, for we have to feed it to em. You have to let them eat it. You have to let them grow accustomed to the taste you have to. Let them get that tasting and start to love that taste. So much.

And now will happen with the first generation are just not happen because they still won't trusted. You have the second generation where those kids are raised, like I can do what I want- and I won't have my tongue cut out- and then maybe the third generation were you ve got people like hey you're, not gonna. Take my freedom from me that That's what I think. I think it takes that kind of that kind of of of nurturing of the environment of freezing freedom and getting people conditioned on? stand the human beings as a huge and being it's a right that you have, they don't have that attitude there did you didn't. I have a right to freedom. That's not the attitude and when you get a glimpse of it like cave like like when you see the troops are pushed up into Baghdad. Initially there we ve an american flags, okay and and that's why it's there like that the the seed is there and you know you recently saw that in some of the protests in Hong Kong and China, where, like you there, these

forgiveness, resemble in Hong Kong is pretty obvious, relegated from the they lived as freely but for many many years, but so this, you have some of that, but there's a seed that exists like in the in the mind. But it's been buried by by fear. You have to do something, that's a long term plan and that's why you know that's why when you look at you know when you Germany and Lava Japan and your post world war, two ok we're gonna work up, we're gonna. Do I'm not you can this working to impose freed upon you for an extended? It is time until then- what do you want me Human beings do they are? They do want freedom, but sometimes it has been buried and abused and beat down so hard that the that it's not worth it to them. And they don't understand, I think one of the prerequisites to living in a free society is you have to have a population that trust each other,

you know you had had Sunni Zuni, minority and control in Iraq for a long time and the them she a majority in the Kurds had been abused under that's some hundred sit for a long time, and now you ve gotta convince the Shi Ites who the votes now under the democracy to just take over the government. You gotta convince them not take revenge on the cities, You got teach them why it's a good idea: to allow the Sunnis. Government, at all, after everything that they ve been through you convinced the Sunnis to buy it. Your government is now going to be led primarily by Shiites, and you, you gotta, that makes generation generations, you know it's generations, and and in order to do it, do you know the first and foremost thing you have people do as he got up. I'd security in the place. You have to be able to let everybody now that look, you don't have to go after the Sunnis.

Please, you don't have to worry about the shades come after. You cause daddy's here, and I know when we decided to go in light and then reinforced decision by cancelling the First cavalry deployment pulling the third idea back. We replaced them with first armor division for what I believe I mean in you know, people can debate about this and they do and they will for a long time, for what I think we're political reasons you know they didn't they didn't. They ve been telling everybody that, but what about those decisions? Or it will when we talk about what? What about those so the military all long had one more troops they. So we need more people to secure this country actually: general francs, Saint COM General, who was commander of iraqi forces of our of our forces in Iraq, the time he finally bought in and he got his subordinate generals to buy in

true the lower amount, under the assumption that they would be reinforced once we knew that Saddam wasn't any use chemical weapons on us and things like that, they were gonna, be reinforced and that we are going to have the iraqi military and police available to force ass operations and just none of those things in of happening right. You get up into April my thinking, so we go in March two thousand three rural exodus baccalaureate. Where were you? When did you get out of college? So I graduated college in the spring of all three of our three and you get a platoon. This is again why my life is been just awesome, been so blast. I I showed up when I asked for orders to a seal him, the guy that I asked for orders. We need the guided told me you wait when he it gave me orders. He gave me orders to the next deploying seal team right. He gave me orders to the next, deploying sealed him. That's a miracle right. That's

that's it miracles also relationships as I'd. Also, like you know, I worked hard when I worked for that. Guy worked hard and he he trusted me. You know he took care of me. He sent me to the next deploying seal team so eating. I graduate in the spring so June July August September, set for a separate September deportment. So I go to shield him. Seven hundred five is on deployment. They got one Google Tunein Iraq seal tilting five, deployment their common home in September and shield him seven is replaced and why do we not also given just a couple tunes are: you want to do is scheduled, go to Iraq. Did you know these guys yet who you're platoon like did No, it's a small world, it's small world, here's, the here's, the the really lucky thing: the seal team, seven commanding

Officer was my executive officer when I was its he'll team to so again, I knew him. I had a great relationship with him. We got one great is great I did so. I show up at seal team seven in spring. Two thousand three. Their work up You're pretty pointed, work up cycle for civilian. Out there? You know you you train to deploy and that the deployment training ends long before you go on one or two and six months before, and then you spent six months doing some kind of fine tweaking you do you do what called we used to do. We not do anymore, but you do like an operational readiness exercise, a big exercise to prove that you're good to go, and then you do some additional sort of. It or based training like ok, we know we're going to this area, will do some focused training on that so that the main bulk of the work up was done. It was over by the time you got

when I showed up so I show up and I'm there. Therefore, a matter of days yes and I'm walking and actually seal team seven had just been commissioned at the beginning of that work. Cycle, so suiting seven's brand new, William building yet. So we're, while I'm walking outside we wear it, we're we're kind of thrown into some ad hoc buildings and sir. I show up and Creating Austria, like I said, is a guy that I worked for so he knew me it at any. No one knew work with someone. You know em, you trust him and had a great relationship with them in. I'm walking down the hallways, our Czech, in both my check in and there's one one thousand slated to go to war. You No, I'm not even enough for two before the amount Europe will soon. I show up to be ops shorter, whatever walking down the hallway. The external part of the building,

see the commanding officer were able to observe and he was Jackal. You look so angry. We so angry about. It's just my face. I said this is my face, or you know that he is. What can I do you happy- and I said, give me one way ticket to Iraq, and he just smiled Mozart, move, that's interesting and looking back a year, a new right, looking back, he knew what he was going to do and what he did, Was there was a week between commander and a week after I showed up at seal team? Seven, you fired up to commander gaming up to how much time do you have to get to know your guns couple months and kind of war? Do you think you getting into it this point? I don't care you just whatever some guys got information memory, the normal wouldn't knowing what seal team five is doing and what they're doing his dream opts for us direct

action missions, low upon. These are now now worth thinking about whom load upon these go out middle night. Take down a target. Rebecca comeback integrity find out. You know what he's doing, get more targets go hit. Those hearted it's like a dream. Come true was the oft empire from you Talkin about nightly missions they're doing their duty in their doing out. There Ah temples high. I don't know what the specific number I would say there probably do and two three four targets a week. This is this is glory. This Also, like you said there be seals who would spend their entire thirty year, careers be Master chiefs. Who would never fire shot in anger in these guys are taken down target the target after target and in no way out but, like I said we train for ah a single mission would be would be. You know that highlight of my life and here's guys doing three. Four five six missions, so I get put in this platoon,

and I remember as soon as I took over the platoon, we had a training mission. That night was it that night? Yes, it was that night, and when I took over the opportune actually be the the command. After called me the offer knowing the guy that was about to get relieved. They called him the chief into the office and his office, and we get in there and he goes lieutenant zone, so you're performances supper, and are hereby relieved and of an Jacko. You are now taking over, and he says how did this go down- oh yeah and he says, do not retain its own, so you're dismissed that guy walks out. He says, chief, I know you, I know you got, you got a platoon of good guys. You had bad leadership done this earlier.

Whatever he said, I want but words his mouth, but he said you know, chief, your job, And so do you asked me if I knew these guys. I knew that guy about platoon chief was a boy you mind from team. When we got one of a guy I grew up with a tilting one AMS, yeah Vienna. He had a good relationship with the guys. Yes, he could cause slide, you yeah yeah yeah, and so So I was excited about that and the L p o of the sister platoon, who was like my best friend for before forever and deems so that was really solid to the end in the task unit when applying the task- and it seems chief was another like guy that I grew up with a team one so yeah, I had some great connections and that I was like one of my favorite guys ever see somebody stock management. I got the commanding officer, I'm superstar during just its awesome, its awesome, and this is

This is you know that you're glowing right now, I'm, and this is why this why you're in the teams, right as why you this why you work hard. This is why you this, why you hey carrier teammates right cause. That's all this is. This is like guys that I'd known for you know whole career and they're, all still Tom Company, in their freak stoked, so the guy the commanding officer, says ceiling to this to this, this is a you know, you're fired and then then the chief he's a chief. You know how the transition! I know you got some good guys in there and he says Roger that he was all right. You can, you can go I'll talk to Jacko and then The opportunity for many goes. Do you want me to tell you Let me tell lieutenant tat it, someone so anything and I said yeah I sit down to get a shit out of my desk and like that, was that an egg and sure enough at the other day he laughed and the commanding officer. You know we talk for a while, and then I went down

The guy was gone and ass. She was out of my desk and that's what well, then so that night we were we are training mission and. I immediately went in there and I talked to chief and I said: hey who's, the junior guy who's. I said who's the Jr Guy, that bike is good to go and he goes this guy. My dog he's going to run the out tonight and he was like party. May I go he's he's gonna run. The optimum music are assured on waking up, so he did. You know this young junior, unless the guy Sars put together the plan and the couple critical things happened and is this? Do you, Mr Guy ended up being just a great, a friend of mine and and very very helpful to me. Because when you build relationships with your junior was two guys they can t what's Goin on Bob LAW, so that during this mission. We doing this training mission and and here we are we going to Iraq or which were

can go to Iraq. And we were slotted. There was to put we're going to send com. One was gonna be in Bahrain. One was gonna, be in Iraq, you're sure who is who pretty the other platoon, our sister Patune and then when was to rotate these two petitions and you'd spend some time I'm in country and then let the Athena, then you go to Bahrain and switch right party. That was just a fair, fair right, everyone wants to go to war, hey we're, not gonna, let one or two get all the experience, so that was part of the plan. So

but still we know we're going to Iraq, and here we are we're going on a training mission in its second over the beach pilot rescue or something just not something. We should have been focused on so we go. We come over the beach and one of the boats like cap sizes and engines flooded, and it just disaster, and luckily for me, I had done a lot of while I was you know. I've been in the teams for while and I had done a lot of amphibians operations more than normal team guy, because I had done to back. To back Argh platoon, meaning you nor an orgasm amphibious, ready group working offer ship like it back in the day. There would be one art platoon for every six patterns, that would be going on what we called a speck. Jobs deployment just going to land

two. There will be one or platoon, it was always the bad deal, and no one wanted it, and- I did to those backtrack. There's no dating to back to back is because the odds If you were going to do something real, it was gonna be from the opportune, because those are the guys that went smaller and so I was examined. Do those arbiters because those guys doing real work forward deployed at so Donna tone of water work in a tone of over the beaches more than more than a normal seal. You know does so the at that moment in time, so that both whip Bob LAW, I the guys are, like The guys are looking at me like hey. We need to cancel like whoever we need to go admin. Basically, go out and we to get a vehicle down here to get this boat back to base because what we can do, houses going, gonna work and also negative, so I gotta just like took over and ass it hears areas we're gonna do boatmen. I gave out the plan like yours,

and its precept pointed out this kind of thing I done before you get one guy with extended by one he's: gonna go out, get to the surf. Keep that thing or intend to go through the surf. Everyone else pushed out once we didn't want a Palestinian United, we're in a paddle was not because we look at me like I was complete insane cause. You got fifty five horse power motor on there. It's a big zodiac low, but its filled with gear. So it's a pain in the ass, but I know that I can do it. I've done it before so. But what is the key? Is that that they didn't think too much was somebody being in the holding the bow line of the boat and keeping that boat oriented through the surf as long as that's happening, which is it's not hard to do that cause you're like basically a sea acre so I say guys, listen! The bow. One thing needs to be your kept forward angle: just paddles thing out what we get out. There were two because a couple the other boats were fine and we would throw it out once we get out there. So so here we go in the Gaza. Like

Ok- and I remember actually the guy that the young guy that I had run in the op later like fire, years later he told me like when you so I was a guy was like ok but breeder. My weapon in the boat put on my fans and took about On starts woman out in the guy's got in paragraph b bout through the storm zone. Got it hooked up there? but we told it out, we did our rendezvous at sea, but five years later, that the young guy said to me like when you made that call, and then we did it he's after that I was, I would have done anything. You ever told me the two guys couldn't believe that that you said and then that it worked. So that was like that This thing I first at the first day. I did, I think, with that night I think, was the night that back I got fired. We did this guy, And so it I was a very lucky because you know I Donnelly's, the tools, and I was a problem with guy, so I done multiple two points and I didn't

deployments has also already saw us very key that I had this experience at the time, because I search was no certainly no spectacular human. Any stretch so that was. That was the first matter meet these guys, and any did you know like you, you mentioned something on one of the earlier park asked about like bonding together what we do a little bit of a shitty up and it went side ways and we pulled it off and once we Rudolph off it was like ok and then we we did our final preparation and then we went on deployment finally Jack going to war war. I think we're up over an hour so its rapid their leave everybody, with a cliffhanger read on well darkness had no war in the meantime. If you want to support- this part cast first of all

right now, you're, probably listening this punk cast on the Jackal podcast feed working to set up this podcast the thread on its own stand alone. What is it I feed it'll, be its own standalone podcast. So if you wanna keep listening to subscribe to it. And then, if you want to support this part, You can also check out our other progress. I get a Pike s called Jacko punk ass. I got the warrior: get back ass, make up the ground, Pont Gas and Darrell has upon cast, which is called or made, and if you want to support any these park ass, you can go to a place, called Jacko store, dot com and you can get some gear, or you can go to origin main dot com and you can get some gear their that's all. I got thanks for Listenin ass things unravel MRS, is and Darrow out.