This is the Jack O unravelling podcast episode, seven with Darrow Cooper and me Jocker, willing klutz, go and follow the thread through area. We left her body hanging last time. We cut off right, as you were about to kick it often remedy and arm think this is so much stuff. I wanna talk about in this one. We we could start off talkin about these, the stakes at play and remedy how there were so many people on the domestic side that were saying this war is lost people even in the military who were saying this. The thing is over an bar at least is done. There were people all along from betrayal of northern Masood, beginning with the utter first other people in tell a farm master and so forth.

We're sand. This thing can be won, but they you got a change of mentality, and so, when you get to remedy you mentioned that you picked up counter insurgency manual known or where you got it because it wasn't, there was published until December. Of of sick was not yet, but I got the latest copy on the internet years, a draft copy and that's army on the not on notice. I said internet not on the separate. It was not classified side. It was a draft copy that I got it. I just when a Google search there and they had just put it out. There is kind of like Gub the their them gorgeous released a document All learning is the first one. That's been released and twenty something years to us, two thousand and one and deal with that after that document? You know you could find it but wait earlier than what was actually released. So yeah that that, in this in April. So when you said actually got formerly release December yeah yeah I had. You must be one of the early adopted for. I was

athletes earlier doctor. I I know that I was the first person that I knew that had read. It was me like, I didn't mean anybody else and said: oh yeah, here's the new manual and it was weird for me too, to like dive into a manual and just say: ok, I gotta have an open mind here looking at this, but seeing again seeing the the here. We all go after all these bad guys, but it doesn't really seem to have a long term. Sustaining impact has been three years of us do in us made. We say we ve gotta, look some other way got to be some other way that this is unfolding for sure. What did you get out of it? When you tell me you just sat down read the thing basically straight through the air sat down a rather thing straight through and I'll. Tell you what I got What're you oughta the made one of the main things that I stole from it was security for the populace That's the first thing that kind of made sense to me. I said: ok right how

we provide security for the populace, which is different. Then I'm gonna remove people right, I'm gonna take bad guys, fighting security for the populace and the idea that decisive the deceased element in this war was not an air. Few There was not a mountain top, it was not a beach head the decisive the design If terrain in this war was the people and I'm going to say it- it was the hearts and minds of the local populous so that was the main take away for me. And then you know you just read through it and you realize that What to do the kind of the kind of You think a counter insurgency. Well, at least at the time. I think a lot people when they thought of counter insurgency? What they thought of was hearts and minds which is hey, we're not we're gonna, build schools, we're gonna, give way food, we're gonna, we're gonna, give med caps, you know, and it got help. People medically

it sounds so hunky dory and you think. Well, that's sounds great, but then you look at remedying the Hockins possibly happen here and in the counter insurgency. Manual. Explains that, in order for those things to take place, you you have to have control over the battlefield and we didn't have control yet so the first step, governments are zis. You gotta get some kind of control, that situation. So that's another thing. I realized and the fact that- and this is think portrays said this later. He paraphrased it later and it made sense and I dont know I got the DE, I understood it from the counter insurgency, men or even though I don't think these words are actually in there. But he said this can't be a drive by counter insurgency, meaning hey you. Just drive into a neighborhood, say, hi and then leave you gotta go in there, you gotta stay, so there made a lot of sense to me. So there were some some Things that I just had to open my mind had seen a different light and seeing that target board

and knowing that. For lack of a better way of saying this. We were losing. And a lot of this comes back again to the book about face by David Hack worth because. He's the kind said we're losing weight in Vietnam he's the first kind of legitimate said we're losing and it wasn't, that I don't know if the fought we're losing would have entered my mind. Had I not read that book but yea, read the book and read that book a lot but be, as you just said, there was the populace in America was turning against the warm war. Mrs two thousand, six, this is nasty and no end in sight and there's Americans coming home. You know: income, gets overtime any so so we ve got

much of the american populace, and here we ve got enough for this. We ve got government affair, those san we're, not gonna win, you don't leave, is an election year. Its actually it's just nasty, so the fact that I a little bit of you know. I have a natural, rebellious streak in me. And that's a very beneficial, sometimes from a leadership position, because your questioning what's happening as opposed to just accepting, what's happening so, For me to say for me to question what we were doing and how we were doing. It was very good and very lucky and also from a leadership perspective. I'm coming in their own detached I had been moroccan two years, so I'm I'm I'm detached from it, guys that are in the fight there during the fight their word about than the opportune that tonight tomorrow night, that's what they're worth about. They got a bag. I good there their planning for another up, and I ve been looking at where it goes on coming, it from a de facto detached position where I'm looking at it from thirty thousand feet gone

so I come from the states where everyone saying, while not everyone, but where a lot of people are saying we're losing, we can't win. I show up there. I see this target board, it looks like we're not make any progress. I faint think we ve got to do something different and that cracks me into the the counter insurgency manual. Three was three tech: twenty four, that's the new one, the insurgents it took us awhile to understand counter insurgency. The insurgents understood their part of it real well talk about how we need to go and we need to build a school. We need to open a pump station or whatever they knew that they needed to go blow up the ribbon. Cutting us troops would be out there giving candy to clear a kids and they would drive a suicide bomb into crowd of kids and after a while, we realized none of this stuff that we're doing matters. If you can't provide for the security of the box near. This is something that you set on the last pocket, and I realize into it and funny- because you said

something along the lines of the insurgents realise that they had. They ve realized, said a weapon or. But you ended up saying they had they. They knew what they needed. They knew what they had on their side and I thought what they needed to get on their site or something like that, and I thought you were going to you said you said people right and what I thought you were not. There was time because That really is the ultimate weapon of an insurgency is look. You ate, pay American hey gringo you want to stay here and you know, lose you know ten guys weaker twenty guys a week will be here. We can we can at last you and what you we don't want to go home. We are home, YO, YO, could you want to go home. I don't care what how can you are you wanna go home, we don't want to go home, we are home, and so we can last year and in that That really is time is the ultimate weapon in insurgency. That's another thing, and I here's a good conversation I had so this pressing into com

actually starting in in remedy. This is something I complete he took from the manual so we started doing these over watch operations where we were going out and providing security for the populist visa killing guys and we started conducting operations, there's a couple things like Africa Misuse, One when you start a counter. Insurgency enemy activity is not going to go down. It's going to go up front because these are not gonna go down. They are going to go up so so right. There, right there. It already feels wrong when you started a counterinsurgency. It feels wrong and it looked looks wrong so that the people tracking sick acts, which is a term for significant activity which which, which it was a word. That had its own meaning in its own life. How many sick acts were there today meeting how many enemy activities enemy attack? were there and the that would get tract

metric, and so when we started this counter insurgency guess what happens to the enemy attacks, the enemy contacts there what happens to the? U S, casualties they go up so probably three weeks into this, we had conducted baby. Ten, over watch operations probably killed x amount of I don't know x amount of enemy, ten twenty and I get an email. From like the one of the guys up the chain of command. Was it wasn't my commanding officer to summon up the chain of command for me and it something along the lines of pay here, are conducting these operations to take our idea in places and insurgents and we're actually seeing an increase in enemy activity. What what? What? What metrics are you going off of that makes you think that is even remotely effective. In what I just said. It a little bit more hostile wasn't hustles out, but from the

or insurgency manual that I had read, I replied I appreciate the feedback, the Abbe, counter insurgency. Last seven years, it's been three weeks. Can I get some more time to measure the metrics and end that they were like? Ok, you don't fair enough, but that was me having read this book and and and pulled things out of it that were actually completely accurate to what we were living so watching those sick acts go up was was rough and I remember the the brigade commander Sean Macfarlane? You know he was answering the mail on this kind of thing and we certainly brigade meeting any say. Other division will is- looking at a saying: hey how. How are we speak I think you're doing a good job here when enemy Activity is increasing, and you know him We gave a similar answer to what I did: we're taking the fight to the enemy and

he's gonna be there's gonna, be gas. These there's gonna be blood, but that's the one. That's a pathway, victory when the people become the ground that you try to win as opposed to an airfield or something like that and a counter insurgency means that everything you do it's gotta be measured for for lack of a better term political effect as well. Like tactical effect right, and that is why this battle is just as fast in me for a long time, because tell you what I just said about everything you do is gonna be measured for political effect and you guys are going into a city the problem much of it hasn't seen in American who was sort of holding their ground in a year? May in some of these places in Europe. Into a sunni city with iraqi security forces, their mostly, if not all, Shia, thereby you ve got to convey those sheer soldiers to treat the sunni civilians, maybe a countering with respect yup, you ve got a truck. You gotta convince the

The populace there that hey we're coming in here with this? Is this remedy else out? If you don't remember what you doesn't, six was like the very very beginning of the year, cut in Iraq massive car bomb the a mosque which is like one of the holiest, sites road, tired. She, a world and the sheer went insane They're burning down, sunni mosques, their sector, in cleansing Baghdad, neighborhoods running Sunnis out in its at a point where the shia militias have totally infiltrate a lot of the iraqi police. People are getting arrested by the iraqi police in two days later, their families get a phone call from the shoe militia. That now has that person and their demanding ransom and say you're, bringing she a soldiers, Into the sunni city that hadn't seen, American has no reason to trust us at all in a long time and you gotta, convinced with those sites to play nice that nobody's.

Anything here, weren't control and which, when you go start talking to the tribes, which is really what I'm super interested in hearing about, how you guys approach this Your two thousand and five just another aspect about the political side of this, and by that just mean intergroup group interaction. The tribes had tried to unite and fight against Al Qaeda back in two thousand and five and they got annihilated. In all their leaders, ran to Jordan and everywhere else they leaders ran to Jordan, the ones that survived cause. I want to say there was a twenty four hour period or forty eight hour period, where eight of the treaty on the earth were killed, eight of them yeah. So I mean that's that's like saying you know if you picture the the New York crime, families in the in the sixties, right saying that we all the heads of the families got killed that that's ending the ones that were left yeah. They they ran and they were junior.

To them a lot of more younger right, because a lot of people got killed and people got kind of yes up. Some people bumped up some people fled some people just fade yeah, all those things happened, you're the glass factory I think in February of Oaths- excite the January of January. January about six. There is, there: is a police recruiting, Dr? Let's call it a recruiting drive for Or the young iraqi men to come and join the iraqi police, where they can now get control of their city a massive suicide bomb there, there was a guy by the name of Lieutenant Colonel Mc Cough Maclaughlan who, hat tat was apparently in. He would happened before I got there. So I didn't know what he was with the two hundred and twenty eight out of Pennsylvania, so he's a reservist. They called the

They called him the shake of shakes use it. You know just a great guy that had this great attitude that was trying to make things happen and got along with all the different shapes and understood what we are trying to make happen. So he's actually than this is what proves what kind of a leader he was. You know this is a risky operation to have this big recruiting drive, but they said security up and now they have several hundred. Young iraqi men that thinking Ok! Well, it looks like we're. Gonna take back our city from these insurgents- you know and- and and my shame in some of the other shakes have said come down here and and join up with this iraqi police and the glass factory an old glass factory in its right outside of camp promoting short, a good place to do it camper body being an all american. You know I'm on base with thoughts, thousands of troops on there in a lot of fire power. The glass factors outside, so there

on this recruiting meeting and in suicide bomber. There's fifty five or sixty of the recruits or killed Mclaughlin Maclaughlan is is killed. Our marine was on security, Adam can sergeant Adam can he was on security. He was also killed. There's another fifty five or sixty. Iraq he's friendly Araki's that were there to get recruited that we wanted. So I mean you picture what the be I just just imagine that you're, a young kid you show up we're gonna, take back Ramada, you show up, the Americans are providing security, the Americans

make everything nice again, the Americans are aligned with my shake. My shake has sent me down here and then the insurgents kill everyone that you know and wound everyone else and if you made it out of their own, gave, you never gonna. Think about do anything like that again. As far as you could set, you could tell me was a couple months before you guys got started. This is ingenuous disingenuity about sex. Is just all of those challenges stacked on top of each other. In a convincing the Sunni that aid we're gonna, protect you from uncle, you know let living energy call on so think when you were talking about the she is the sheer soldiers, and so What am I mean? Who what's the point profile of someone that joins She has the the iraqi Army in two thousand and six was that profile look like well? Yes, guess what it's a lower class person we're Talkin Bout, the frontline grants, because it there's there's the whole office, Thing in its it's just

like any wealth, not it's! It's the officer thing where these guys pay to get and position. They come from a family whenever, but the the the soldiers who joins the iraqi Army in two thousand and six whose whose it who does for their sheer they need money. Educated, they are looking for a job, and here you go That's the same exact profile of who is joining the the mighty army to go and for the Shias, you don't kind of that, the exact its exacting profile. So in the barracks room so Leif Leaf Bab and who is one of the two commanders he was. Running a troop of of iraqi soldiers in their barracks on the american base, had a giant poster on the wall of maternal solder on their walk, in the clear like hey. Why we're here too? fight and yeah that's a picture of looked on all soft sawder. You know the sort of most vocal

rebellious leader of the shia sect at this point. So that's that's. What you're looking at it's crazy and the picture of tried to find it, you ve seen a picture. The picture of mcdonnel solder with his kind of finger raised up and and he's a very he's, a very he's a caricature right he's. He fits the exact image of what you would expect this fiery guy charismatic Guy he's got like a little crazy eyes to whom he fit. That exact image, and so they get this giant push from it and has like lightning around. So that's that's that's what most for subtlety in the Middle EAST. That's what we're dealing with. What am I wear? My favorite things ever is one of the insurgent groups has been operating on the rack. They were until a year or two ago called themselves Euphrates volcano MIKE. Also. We we're not sure if I'm giving you guys lack for a couple beheadings for their good work.

Not sure if we're like a roller derby team or an uncertain group, where were feeling avenant, add that a postscript their points to be another one right you gotta get the Sunni and she had a plain eyes together. You gotta Vince the city in the city that we can protect you from Al Qaeda after we haven't done at all. For years now and I'll cut has been the law the land as long as you ve been here, and when we recently failed to protect you ignore the glass factory attack, but another one. Is it you gotta convince imagined, wasn't hard with you guys. Maybe, but do you have any issues where, when you started to talk to the tribes with Americans, really these guys were shooting at his last year and you want to start by giving amnesty work with them, or These guys got a poster of Mikado Solder and their barracks in response to trust. These guys are. How is that? are you talking about me with the seals in tasking browser? I wouldn't I would imagine that wasn't problem that do

There was a little that their hardest challenge with the seals and asking a browser was hey guys. Where can we work with iraqi soldiers? Pretty much all the time I'm going to watch or back? Are they you're back there. We trust home, and the answer is no, and no so what do you do you mitigate risky for your? How you can train them up enough? You figure out what how you operate with them, where you're you got four of those guys that are supposed to be doing something, and you need to seal there to make sure that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. So this was really before that there had been a lot of of you know who Dan green on green or blue meaning a bag like up like an hour George returns and start shooting that happened more in Afghanistan happened some in Iraq, but at this point it wasn't a huge We thought about it. Of course, like you, just don't you're comfortable when you got a guy, that's gotta poster Mcdonnel solder in his bedroom and I was standing next year with an acre forty seven. You know, there's

There is definitely some trust issues and then there was different types of guys know if there there's there's kurdish some kurdish soldiers, that would be in some of these units and they would be very trustworthy. Invite squared away, but like almost a different different level. Actually, they were straight up a different levels. If you had a couple kurdish guys, you be pretty stoked on that, but there was. It was so so as far as telling my guys we're gonna use Working with Iraqis That was a little bit of a struggle, but then, when they understood why we're doing it, then they last okay and an even if, even if they did agree with why We're doing it because the the what I told was hey, either get them up to speed, they can handle skirting girl, country or we're gonna, be here forever and work in a loose or weaken, yet. These guys trained up, get him out there, so they can handle security and then we're good. If that didn't convince my guys,

here's the other half of it, and this is the this the slammed dunk for a seal by the way We have two choices we either take rack is with us or you don't work who wants to work there you have seals want to work and they we get after it, and if that means Take iraqi soldiers will dig iraqi soldiers, so I probably got there. I probably got due to their hearts sixty percent there just talking about the big strategic picture, but you gotta tie it back to why good for them and what's good for us yours, I get to go out and kill bad guys, and so this. What This is what can we allow us to do that? Keep cool were on board make it out, for you guys operate in pretty much moment. You got there. Yes, admissions for you and radio. You say they had missions force. We had developed missions. So the task in hand turned over with no, they were tracking targets. We picked up some of those targets and within

We're doing operations very quickly. When did the item. You know when did the actual operation to take the city back released? restart, set, not the cops around the city and really ocean, so there was a their wages in June or so maybe, but there was a There was a, I guess I might call a false start, which was when we got there, first briefs that I gave my guys were: hey we're gonna, go where you do a solution on this to do what they didn't lose your work to do here, because that kind of where the planning was at the two too, had done a great job surrounding the city, and now you ve got both the two. Wait and the one one I d on station, four turn over, and that means we ve got. Will the combat power? That means we're gonna go through the city and crush it. Molly to his credit, who had just been elected. Prime Minister, as a sheer said,

if he knew what would happen if, if he directed that to happen, it would be all the Sunnis saying looking with the she is doing to us their killing us and it would cause a problem. He said you If you got another way to do it, a less kinetic way of doing it, that's the word we got. We actually got the word, so we have We were planning massive man, if more die, multi battalion operations so the word comes down. Actually we in the process of planning a battalion sized operation, we were going to support the first five or six and the Euro could do fastening, because it's been written up in articles in I think, even in Tom Ridge Book that that this was done intentionally. That abuse ahead fake that we loaded up a whole bunch of men immaterial like we're gonna come in like Felicia in order to get some of the insurgents it had been,

in the city to back out before we started moving into neighbourhoods and what we are actually plan on doing. That sounds if that was the head fake than they faked me out here, and they ve picked out everybody that I talk to and worked with income leading up to and including planning battalion sized operation that we were going to execute. So if you lose a head vacant fact, it headache the brigade commander and the battalion commanders as well, because we were all ready to execute that. We get the word were planning a battalion sized operation. We get the word no, but how incised operations are to take place in the city What word comes out? Ok, so we change, battle plan a little bit of the first five or six makes change their battle plan and they do like to company plus size operation which reaches pretty because you have a die incised operation and that, but that was our first pillar in two in in into star.

Establishing. We didn't established a compliment, but I was the first hey: we're gonna come over stay that was only going to be staying for a few days, but that was a plan of staying and then, as far as I have to check the date, I don't remember the dates of when we did the very first operation to go and seize ground where people were going to stay but there was in the time in a couple weeks, there was these. There was some turner. For operations. That happened where we tried to where we being american coalition forces, try to turn over certain certain control points out inside the city and the enemy would attack them and just cause complete me. Common, they overran several positions which again, when people ask about what the enemy was, like, I was gonna say, was your sense of miss. Fourthly, how are these light infantry? They used radio communications

day had maneuver elements, they would extract or casualties they would in reinforcements- they they did. What of what a millet. Unit is experiment, you figure other, then Americans, at that, went they probably had more combat experience and just about it. Force in the world at the time for sure, and even even Americans right and the two to eight we showed up there had been on the ground for fourteen months, but guess what the people that lived in remedy had been in there for twenty two, years. Twenty eight years they ve been in remedy, since the war started two thousand three, so they years and years of experience and the law. Of them, former former regime military personnel so that that helped as well. I was reading a book is talking about the very very early days of the war, and somebody was up in

Thank you isn't it was is: are we were basically going around in those early days, lookin for a fight looking for somebody from the iraqi armed forces to actually stand and fight us, but they rose is melting away, mountain away, so we said we're gonna go after decree source at arms, it's like them. The last place. We have really go into it. They're gonna say if anywhere pressure, they're gonna stand and fight there and is journalist, I think it was a Dexter Falcons book. He followed the: U S, forces into decree, they just melted away, nobody for us and we go in there and he's talking to people, Iraqis, the ground with his translator and he finds a guy who's revolutionary guard and he's really while you're revolutionary Keyser. Yet souci he's really. He said he I look around so does my buddy. It's us they're everywhere right, but we don't know these people are. These points is legal, follow two thousand three may be late summer and it almost

We wonder if, in a situation like that, where, even if you don't necessarily know you're gonna, have a big insurgency right and we have to call a general Colin Powell and how it if you go in with overwhelming force, if you have it available rate, but is situation with enemies, Knocker stand and fight. You like that we're just the presence of your air power alone is enough for them to be like. How would this right is an almost it? It is so hard to justify this politically, but if, if we were gonna go when do a rack to try to sell it to the american people to hear that we actually need to do. We need to go in there with eighty thousand ground troops, very limited air power and challenge these people. Do a fight and say come out and fight us dram out and sitting make them. Think, like you know, maybe we can actually go out here and fight you,

in order to draw out and fight him, because in a situation where everybody just melt into the civilian population, the minute you show up with you know all core and air power in anything like that, it's really hard to nail anybody down, then you end up with an insurgency, and I ain't its it. Or if its ever possible, to sell to the american public that we need to go in here lighter than we actually could. But I mean I guess we deal in Romania. We did do in Romania and that's That's part of it. I wouldn't say we women later, but here's the deal. When you move into someone's neighbourhood there, either gonna fight you or they're gonna leave or they're gonna comply, and so it has the same effect. What doesn't have the effect is hey we're here. Where are you they go? What will sing to leave, as I said earlier, that we have all the time and were You wanna, hang out here for six months, call your american you're going back to America. I live here so so, if you go

hey, I'm here and I'm gonna stay. That's why putting a timeline on a war? Doesn't work, doesn't work Gazelle just hold up for a while. The other thing that is key to recruiting allies to they got another you're gonna stay because the other people are Jerusha, the death of the enemy is to stay. So, if you have a time line on the end of year My my fight card expires in eighteen months, cool eighteen month to an insurgent is a joke. This house near here in this house, as it's like being in a lockdown I'll call, you be afraid she months go. I can do that. You hold my breath, although work in my auto mechanic, tore down the street. Money I'll save up offers some ideas your way, occasionally just piss you off and make sure that you want to leave. And other than that await eighteen months, no factor movie, you know the insurgents to really adapted to try to bring down the institutions and functioning, civil society ready minute. They got to the point where they were killing guard the man they were killing teachers,

anybody who was necessary to make things work dip and that's it? That's it. That's a great pointed to bring up and There's been a couple. People have commented. I saw social media and otherwise about this part asked, and here of course people were. Painting me as sort of pro american patriotic and other completely? One hundred percent accurate thinks. So I get it One thing, though, that I see a lot of is people will say, there was excellent, of civilians that were killed in the Iraq war, and it's it's a horrible number. It's Horrible numbers- I it's in the millions, but it's it's I've heard the millions get thrown around all the time. Hey this millions of millions of whatever that number is killed during the Iraq war hey if that numbers ten, it's awful. If its millions, it's it's it's

exponentially more awful, but it's. The fact of the matter is those millions of civilians were not killed by american troops? Were some yes, they absolutely. Some civilians died at the hands of Americans, whether it was in cross fire, whether it was in bomb droppings, whether it was in mistaken identity like hey I say this all the time. If you think I'm going to war and you're gonna spare civilians and they're gonna get of get out of gas free card, it doesn't happen. Civilians are gonna die. The percentage of iraqi civilians that were killed by Americans is miniscule compared to the amount of iraqi civilians that were killed by Al Qaeda.

Insert outside insurgents, Sunni insurgents and and she insurgents like that's where killing was now. If you wanna. Take up. If you want take a very anti american stance, you can say yeah, but those conditions that allow that to happen were because of a man. And to that I'd say, be our well. It's it's tough to argue about that, and we could have done some things better to prove too that that from happening, absolutely an embryo, looking back hindsight story, When I hear some things that we would have done different, we already covered some of em. We know let the let them literary stay intact, a budget that the iraqi military I visited bear some responsibility. I mean I fully. We didn't, kill those people, but you know a lot of it, but the fact is there was a state structure intact and we destroyed the state structure without having in place. We bear some responsibility for would no doubt after that, the same way as you know you what you ear. What

You have to have an overcrowded military prison or something in the place runs out of food and they're starving you're, not killing those people you're not putting them in gas ovens or something like that, but you're responsible for you know what's going on there too, you know to a degree and what you really to take your metaphor, make it even more accurate is let's say: there's a prison, a military prison in its overcrowded there's, not much food and look at you, but then what happens is now there's a riot may kill each other. Right because that's what have that? Basically, what happened in Iraq? That's a more accurate picture. Hey there's! much food, there's not much water. When I just starvation. What they do is they start killing each other. So that being said win sure America can take ownership of that. The people that are out there,

off each other's heads. They have to bear some responsibility to save ninety ten short but as an American, I don't take it like. I don't mind baron some of that responsibility on our side, and I think I know a lot of the decisions that we talked about. The first you episodes that were that were ended up being very bad decision things. That can be lessons learned for the next hundred years in the american military, hopefully were kind of made, because we were imposing a certain view of how society works covered naive view of how human groups work as we went in and remit kind of represents the point where we start to say we got to work with this country as it is just released a heavy sigh which also people commented about. They said whenever I disagree with you, I saw heavily and had actually it's not that I disagree with you. Sometimes it's I am actually in agreement with you and I just just have additional information about whatever his that

just said so- some those things that that when we let them unfold, and we think, while we could have done this different, we could have got done that different. There certainly was things. You know that that if we go back, we don't different. No doubt in eight, like someone put the put it, this way you like gum when we think of how government works, how civil society works in Amerika. We think of something like gum. What tribal patronage systems like they have on Iraq to us? That's corruption, that's nepotism! that should be illegal prize. You, a whole social system, is built on this kind of stuff out there and you guys finally went into remedying said. You know we have many. Do we need to deal with the society as it is if we ever actually another chance this war. This is your you're making a statement that accurate is completely accurate and I have some examples for your number one.

When we got to remedy some of the elements from the iraqi Army units that we are working with, they wait the guys that turned over with us there, like hey, listen, there's a real problem with these, this iraqi army units? Ok, what's the problem the officers are skimming pay from the enlisted, guys they're taking some of their money every month. So we, you know, walk a travesty, and we need to fix this week did Paul. That thread and Are you know some of our interpreters who were either of us? Aki Dissent or or other other countries over there, but it spent time they're like yeah, page aka. That's the way the world works here. You're, the boss, man, your guys, It paid money. You take your cut that there's? No one. Look there complain about it sure. But this is culture thing that we're not gonna change, so that was big one. The whole way that we went about gathering, intelligence and and action intelligence when we

letting those guys gonna take leading figures They wanted to do it in there way Often we started getting much much better results from them and then can carry that all the way up the chain of command. I think that's actually what my original sigh was about. When you talk when you said: hey, they're, they're, a different culture- and we try to impose our culture on them. It's not gonna. Match up. It's just not going to match up and you can get some of it. You can force it. You can for something to match up here and there, but you're. Not to get it to align a hundred percent. Then you got ask where you're going to focus your efforts, because if I'm trying to get this error, the army unit to be able to handle security in country, and I wasted you have time and piss off the officers cause I'm inciting a mutiny from their troops, because that guy's taken a pay cut, which is what happened to him when he was a young guy in. Army and not just the way things are then you're going. Waste your time do a lot of things.

Be waste your time it they Gonna be on time for some stuff. They were going to say yes to things that they couldn't support. You know that was kind of a cultural thing that I had to learn. You may say to it all: on iraqi Platoon, Commander, hey, Can you have thirty As for this operation, and he's gonna say yes, we are you know, he's what is really goes as enchilada. You know God willing, but he's nodding his head. Yes, that doesn't that doesn't mean? Yes, it just means we, if God willing, we will so you can't. When, on God's will you need to plan with the numbers that you are actually gonna have, so We spend a lot of time as a country, and I think you know my vision or my attitude, mentality was too not I think it s a sort of a digital mentality. Right, hey these I don't want to do this, but they want, do that and it looks like it's pretty close, I'm good what's wrong with it. That is Having an open mind is very important thinking

you're going to train on ice. Okey soldier to think, operate and believe The same as an american soldier is not is not accurate and the thinking their platoon is gonna function. The same way that easy. Petunias gonna function or that no soul force thinking that you're gonna be able to teach them and have them by in two days: centralized command out of the gate. It's gonna take a long. You can't just expect them to decentralize command when they I've been living under a centralized regime the top down where you can be headed for making a mistake there knots Cooper opened Decentralized Command, so you have to work with the leadership a little bit more to start to eat. A move in that direction, but more important be. How do we take what your culture is and how do we make it work and that's a variant important lesson to learn about any and

urgency and working with people from other cultures. You, you you're, not gonna. Will you change people's cultures, but it take generations it's not gonna happen in three months, not gonna happen in six months, not gonna happen in here. It's gonna take a long time it's gonna, take deep, it's gonna. Take deep effort in this can be costly But you know we were able to change the culture of Imperial Japan, they changed their culture, the culture and all that, but that Did you know? Yes, we did change some of it. We sure, as hell didn't change all of it. I mean Japan, Still has a culture that is routed the same you you could few could trace threads of the japanese Culture that exists today all the way back through world war. Two due to all the way back to the samurai days. You can do that. No problem so Thinking that you're gonna change culture during a six month deployment in a sealed task unit, not a good, not a good place. To put your effort, what you can do is

look at the culture- see how it operates and see how you can get to the end state you want, and just like decentralized command, hey, look! Here's what we want to get done! I'm not run two concerned about how we get there. I just want to get there. In Japan at least we had a long running national identity and culture. We could work with, where you know the over the elites in Japan, the bureaucracy that more or less stayed intact over the course of our conquest. The islands like you can make changes at the top in a kind of trickled down. The state had been in place for a long time and japanese identity and culture than place your one time, you're doing place over here, where that is not really in existence, especially out, and you know how and bar and Eastern Syria the desert there. You know I sent you. A quote is really not to this episode from a book where a guy journalist was over the Middle EAST

he had a jordanian driver. An interpreter, and this Jordanian is from a mine, he's mean loves the king over there. He loves him specifically, because he's such a modernize earn a liberal any the disguise very proud that Jordan is the most western of all the arab countries. And then this journalist got surprise because he said ass, I'm talking to this guy, the both cosmopolitan go. You can imagine like from from Jordan. And he said they're talking about tribal dynamics in arab countries and how it makes it harder to kind of form of state structures and overall national identities, and he said yeah it's terrible and he said I am not proud to say this, but Enough came down to it. My tribe went against the king. I love the king, but I'm gone with my tribe as your user name, a matter of choice of just a poor sobered. Do that MRS Guy, who loved the king loved the near the country of Jordan, so you're dealing with people were much more disconnected from this fund.

Little apartment thing? Recalling a rack, you know post circa, two thousand six. I had what was he in when you got started going to the tribal leaders that summer, I guess protests are talking to him. Yes, what was their initial reaction? We had to have been scepticism. First, absolutely and there's well, first of all say that there's a when, when I was off the coast of Somalia and like ninety four and we We're standing by two go help us we were, it was with the closest I had ever been to doing something for real. We had our gear loaded, we had operational plan. And we had briefed our plans. We had our magazines loaded, we're on standby and weeds are obviously we had done a lot of Intel briefing and one of the things that I always remembers. They had this saying that they told us to try and explain to us what we are dealing with, that there is Somali saying at least I think it's Molly. Might it might just be that region, It was me against my brother memory.

Against my family, my family, against my truck my tribe against Somalia, Somali against the world. So so you have that kind of thing that I have always said that that's very much like a single seal team which is in my Smee against most one body, we must win body against my fire team, my fire: against my squad, my squat against my balloon, my opportune against the world or about me but soon against my task here, my desk united against, de my team against the world, so they absolutely have that, and it is a. It is a deep cultural identity that you are part of this tribe and we all empires have come and gone. Yes, millennia and their tribal identities estate intact s gotten them through. You know, That is probably one of the reasons that the jihadist are so effective in these areas is the gene. It is actually have wasted, and he thought they have an overarching you no kind of car.

That unites them all together. They don't have all these little, I'm one. That's not true. They are putting internecine conflict and everything, but they do have an overarching ideology is bring together a large group of people and when they're going against tribes the can you know that thing tribes like you said me against my brother and so on. That's a lot of little lines of approach that you can go into. Dr little wedges break things apart and I mean so yet you seventy. I asked you if they were sceptical when you first showed up any especially of the idea that we were gonna stick around, I mean they had to have been like they had been skeptical sector what they suffered recently, so I had got so far the couple things here. First of all, there is violent battles happening every day and every night in remedy violent, there's thirty two fifty enemy attacks a day. Many These attacks are dynamic, complex,

from you know, with multiple you its enemy units attacking strong points, a guy, centered in downtown remedy, which, the Marines that we're down there were just roll out. Therefore, months on end and that place. Get attacked all the time I could see. We could see from the rooftop of my building, which was on the other side, the afraid river. You could see these five by taking place all over downtown memorial terms. So this is completely violent, so all the residents can hear it probably is governance and a huge city rates no it's only like few three, three or four miles across from one sir? Yes, you can see their nine in their houses. Listened a gun battles. Tracer fires everywhere. It's it it it! It's it's like that right. So this idea, for me, so I've got various lines of operation and I'm supposed to be conducting I'm supposed to be doing their hearts. Mine's thing up source to be doing civil affairs, while building I'm supposed to be doing action missions to get rid of bad guys

the one that I kind of added wasn't hey we're gonna, support and duty over watch positions and one of the lines of operation was tribal engagement, Pe tribal engagement go out and meet the tribes. So I'm looking at this and I'm a I'm trying to be a good seal, trying to be a trying to carry my load and I'm supposed to assign a small element of seals to be in charge of tribal engagement. I don't have the manpower to do. I can't who am I going to take out one of my one of my combat leaders without running operations? That's out you don't leading troops, I'm going to take one of my senior enlisted guys that is making tactical calls on the battlefield. So not going to sacrifice it and by the way, from a prioritizing execute standpoint, we are even close to making people feel like work. They are safe and secure. So this no time to say all. I'm gonna take away my

fire power, which is in support of these massive operations that are now happening. Amateur instead assign seals to do tribal engagement, but I still needed do tribal engagement, I I happen to have a guy. Who was I believe you might notice keys. Navy Guy, prior, unless a guy at his his officer, special he has Emma Wes was like information operations or something like TAT. It was, science, but I forget what actually was, but he's not a seal he's a and some damn sure how Mona Park ask. Some should be great to hear this from his perspective cause you got a picture disguise regular fleet Navy guy. He shows up he's part of my soul, ask unit is made above depending on when and where there is between. Thirty, five and forty five seals, the other people, the other

sixty or seventy people that bring this task in up to a hundred people as support people so ready men and weapons guy in a bunch of sea bees, I got this random kind of. Information operations officer- I don't remember, what his actual job was, and he is these. Really nice guy he's tall, which and I just remembered talk- is when you see people getting into humvee their talks kind of its kind awkward. He has very limited, combat training, probably done some some training before we deployed you know, hey site in your weapon. Learn some basic me: cool stuff, but but put very untrained, That's what I'm looking at him and he's also interesting. We enough he's married to I want to say he's married to a japanese woman. And he's I think you may be stationed in Japan merited

companies, woman and he's a Buddhist, so he's a buddhist visa. He's a like a white guy from from Ohio or something really nice, guy, so I said: hey here's what's goin on it. I said in an ideal? I call him by his first name. I thus call on J G for now cause. That's your views, a lieutenant Gigi Psycho, hey Gigi! This was going on. We got these. Tribes out here and we won get them on our side, and we want to talk to him. I want you to start not with the army when they go out and start trying to talk to some of these tribal leaders. Music. Yes, sir, said Oh, he starts going out and I'm not thinking too much of it at the time, not thinking very much of it in here, so he starts going out and in again you see this guy he's got like you know that the stereotypical brand new web gear. You know his happened. He you uncomfortable holding it and and, by the way, he's gonna,

and I d laden streets like he is taking a massive risk of being blown up and killed, you know One of the groups he was going out with, though I think it was the one three six. In their first thirty: six hours on the ground, they took mass casual soothingly lost five soldiers to a couple ideas, these guys are hanging out there and so he's got with these guys. So when I'm, when I'm testing a little bit about the way he looked. Don't don't mistake that for me question his courage in any way shape or form could he was loading up and go out into these unknown neighborhoods? Trying to interact with these with the tribes? So that is, that is where this tribal engagement began. For me, I'm not given any one up. If you know how to shoot a machine gun. Well, you're gonna shoot machine guns. Who do I got that I can send to talk to tribes, hey how

how about a prior enlisted lieutenant J G Info nation operations. Buddhists, that away when they say Crusader, Americans, relying proceeded, got nothing to do with me, man, so he starts going out and he comes back from one of these operations and he says hey. I think I think I got something for you mustn't. Why? What do you got? He says I met this guy today and He says he wants to be part of desert protector, and I said: ok, in deserts. So desert protector was a programme and in really hope that I'm remembering this right, and for any one that I messes up? Please just let me know and I'm sorry when the marine or pushed through our clean They as they move from building to building some?

locals started, saying: hey Marine, over there, that building down the street there's a bunch of bad guys in there. You should go, kill them and we're just just locals and we live here, but this bad guys over there and they no jacket and guess what the bad guys and so what, whenever marine element was in charge, and I apologise for not being given the credit by name, but they said wait. A second there's a bunch of local People that dont want Al Qaeda here Maybe we should join forces with them. Maybe we should help them. Maybe they can help us so they started this program called desert protector, which was hey will help you get arms? Well, you know what worked together and will start cleaning up the get rid of all these back ass. Well, when Molly So these are all sunni tribes. Now sunni tribal leaders that are like ok, cool you're, gonna, give us guns and ammo and and will hope you and will get rid of these people that are trying to terrorize us awesome. So we they start this desert protector programme.

So this guy. You know I just had read about this from after actions report. That's how I knew about it so Jane. He comes back to me. This makes me what J G on Joggled park as to here is the story cause. Can you imagine what he was thinking? He can backed and takes a certain common personality. We'll do sunlight. Good thing is: is he was older? You use it usage, KGB user prior unlisted guy, so he was like We are probably about the same age, so we we We had a good, very good relationship, so it comes back to me like a jack. I think I've got somebody free. Met. This guy was shakes. It ended up being a guiding shakes, darbyshire, which the name net meant nothing to me. When I read it, he said the shake he wants to be a part of desert protector and I said: ok Desert protector windmill leaky. The Shia had been Elect did he looked out western said wait. A second we got these desert protect, is at a bunch of Sunni militias runnin around the country out of out of my control, maybe not out of control

Definitely not in my control. We end This ban the programme stopped so now, desert Protectorate gone now rewind. We just had the glass factory blowup January, which meant we had no iraqi police, but the rocky police were, was what was gonna, be a government organization that would be supported by the iraqi government was blessed by the iraqi government to help fight the insurgents. So I said J G. I said well desert protectors done it's been cancelled. I said I'll. Tell you what go back and tell him that the new desert protector programme is. The iraqi police, and if he wants to get his troops and his tribesmen to join the Iraqi. We will give. Em training will give a ammunition munition we'll give him weapons and we'll get him uniforms. I said because also tell him that he's got his guys running around in neighborhoods with.

Machine guns and track come on we're we'll kill them. He needs to know that so J G goes out comes back and we may I wish I could remember this accurately within two oak, and so he goes back in and I get the report back he's in that's the report he's in he's in, ok at that point- and we had been doing this- you know holding hands doing this with the weather, The commission works too. That's Ujiji had been going out with an eye This was also the on three six great crew and guided by the name of Colonel dean. He was with from, and so it turned into ok, he said, okay to this non, like oh, ok, are we ran, and- and this is when we said- ok, we ve done what we can do cause you got thirty seals like. We can't run a big recruiting thing and we did vote.

Sure to train a though we said, okay, if we can get these guys here, will train of goods start getting them where in a similar uniform- and it was so. This all happened and within a very short period of time, Jim gee went to these one of these meetings and came back and said he, sir, you know, you can get this translated, but this is a document. There's a bunch of tribal leaders that are gonna work together with us, and that was was what became known as the the onboard for everybody out. There doesn't knows this disguised Tatars, tribal leaders, a younger guy. You see one of the guys that came up after the godfathers logo. Out the year before I mean this is the central guy who got all the tribes together and kicked off here, Our awaken he was, she was a fairy oh America? We were after him like that, For in the year before we had got like actually the tat, none of it a year. The task unit before us had taught me

had a target package on this guy meeting this guy's, a bad guy. We need go, get em, so we had a target package on him. Why why was he a why'd? They consider my bag. I cause he was running guns cause. He was a gangster and Harry become a how you maintain your position as a shake. How do you get money as it? You need money, you power, how do you do well, it looks like smuggling is gonna work right now: cool, we're smuggling, that's what he's doing smuggling guns and making things happen, and we immediately obviously pulled him from the target- must ok, this guy's on board, and this goes back to the court that I about one the earlier part of the world vote. We're gonna we're gonna bet on the winning horse. So that's what he kind of said, okay meares them. The horse and and joy Macfarlane, whose economy, at the time when, through this thing with his chain of command. They said what are you talking about? This guy is going to lead a coalition. We have a target package on this guy and he'd league. He was telling the story girl, Macfarlane you're here he was telling a story. You know at the at the table.

The table for you, for one these brigade meanings he's telling the story this or to have lived through this, I'm so lucky to have been sitting at these tables and sitting at these meetings and no, seeing this stuff unfold produce it this meeting You know, he's a shoulder. The generals wondered why we're gonna work with a guy. That's that that we were targeting in his run guns and is a smuggler, and ended colonel said. You know I told him: hey Boss, the guy's, a mobster he's a gangster. That's what gangsters do it now? He wants to work with us and we need them. We need move forward and if you he convinced him convergent, we added a billion. Even if you think about what we mean by a mobster. We think of the mob. We think the italian mob, the irish MOB, the jewish mob ethnic mafias rate is groups a come over here that have some extra, no reason to be tight. Knit you now they're off from Sicily. They got the family whatever. It is again what we ve got a society over here that we ve

bureaucracy Ized and can all the rules are in place in anybody? This? Don't you think, I'm off the grid, that's a criminal activity that corruption or whatever, that's something that we work. Only over time. There is a lot of little more local, informal ways of social means, a social regulation that are still at play and travel societies like that. You think about some like in the: U S where few have a but say of the truck drivers, union or the scene of the Long Shorelines union right back in the day. Like a couple cases stakes in a couple cases, a wish you go missing off the docks whatever and we ve got all these things in place now to make sure it doesn't happen. Everything has stamped interact with our if I d chips and balboa and suppose that's fine, more efficient, there's! No! It's not that you should be able to steal things, but if you think about the little that the the summit that the more local level things that that used to facilitate and has not taken those things home and eat them all and self right. Those things would be a barbecues gonna, be given at the union, all for all the union

eyes and he's gonna go to. One of the local restaurants is not some big chain and give them a discount on some of the sort that he took off her there and it's kind of providing these little sinews and that local community in making things work and giving that guy what they call it. Whilst I re he's got that he's got the juice now, which means what it does is now. If he's list of wild criminal, that's not a good thing, but it does mean that you get somebody to go to. If you need to have some of the word, you has some juice and a community and again America. We just don't think a things like every he's corporate ties in Iraq retired and we don't we look at those things- is almost an unnatural outgrowth. When that's the natural state of things you know we ve dislike very complex machine, but to go together over here. The rings handled much more local informally over there and you guys have to start learning how to think like them, learn how to work with that yeah Here is an example I'm glad you brought this up. So we gotta go. A gangster here

running guns and doing whatever he was doing. Maybe he was even conducting or directing attacks. Its coalition forces. I dont know that I don't know Think so this guy had this guy had his house kind of look like the White House purposefully I want to say he had first, I want to say he had a life size picture of John Wayne, is in his house having read the coming up, so issue he's a real like he's a career, just guy too. They murdered other ran all use. Brother ran off, but you grandfather was like one: the people that led his grey father, lead billions against the british right that this guy he's the a guy that you're playing around you know he's a visa gangsterism, tough guy, but he's very pro coalition at this point. So one of the things that I did We had imagined that we're supposed to civil affairs, so we start

even this guy civil affairs projects and what that mean that that mean were given him money but had undressed. Yes benefits, so so I remember we did some project with him and it was. It was a real big someone out, I want to say, was a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a hundred and fifty thousand dollars. It was abroad, pavement or whatever. Something like that and and and again I remember I don't know what to say. I got push back but I got some questions about like hey. Who, as you know, is it really worth the hunter? fifty thousand dollars to pay this road, and could the engineers do it and along that line of questioning comes, I know this is money to prop this to give this to proper skype. But want me to give this guy wants to give this guy he's going to feed that hundred fifty thousand dollars. You here you're by wreck your we're going through in a box, he's gonna, buy two thousand dollars worth of work.

The stuff repair the road. And then the rest that monies gonna pay his people and he's gonna he's gotta gain Watson, that's the kind of thing where that, where it really helped it made him more powerful and which, what we wanted cause. Other people see it. You hook up with the Americans and in this guy cool thing was on the point I want to make clear here. This guy wasn't like some puppet. This guy wasn't some. You know this guy, we didn't insert with America, didn't disguise now may ensuring candidate that way. Put in here: hey here, here's a guy! I know this guy is from remedy. He grew up there his family is rooted there. This is This is his world and he's not a plant he's not some person that America's using as a puppet, no he's

guy that is gonna, be powerful in this part of Iraq and he's not following american orders. What he's doing as he's trying to build his country back. So I just want to make sure that that is clear. I could see people think and all they just got some she'll to throw in there. Now this Guy rebel leader cake is almost a sovereign entity and absolutely obsolete, this and you can't you catch it insert a try leader, it doesnt work and everything's, on the legitimacy which, when it comes to the tribe, and I also have to say this. When you want people to bet on the winning horse, you have to be the winning horse and one of the things that that took place that allowed these tribal leaders to come on board was they started to see that we were going to win? They started to see that we were going to war

and then I had many. Conversations when we got home from remedy about this and one of the things that I would say is that these these hearts and minds and the sick fares operations, those things can only take place after the sword has been unleashed and the enemy realises that we will defeat them, but, more importantly, the local populous realises. That we will defeat enemy. That's what allows owed its. Why would you look you you're in a lifeboat that sinking and two boat you can get on one of em Is has a leak in it? The other one looks like it's going strong, which, when are you gonna get it so you? What you have to do. Is you have to go out of the boat? You have to put us, you have to hack at it until it, gonna go down and then the people,

we're gonna get inside your boat and that this is a classic example of what happened. I was talking to leave the other day when Got done with this left went and took over. The junior officer training course and for The US, so the young seals are common through this course and one of the things that they had to do was the day they get different people come talk about, differ conflict and they wanted something to talk about counter insurgency. At any delay for chopped up his chain of command said hey you want. I can talk about the counterinsurgency. If you want, we can talk with the battle of Ramadi and they're kind of no waves, the young, lieutenant and, and and Do you know- just from remedy in it's almost like. Oh yeah, I get it. You want to tell you a story, but you know we to get a counter insurgency. You need to get someone. It's got a little bit more experience. I guess it was. It was again. I'm sorry from town is wrong, but something close,

the officer in charge, the overall guy was it. You know what we're gonna get agree breaks, that's sort of green brays, bread and butter right, the bread- and, of the green raise is counter insurgency you'll, that's what they based trading on And so he wanted to get a green Bray to come to the junior officer, training course and teach teach counter insurgency so they finally find a green Bahrain and the green break coms and I think he actually ended up working there and so late. You know comes into his colors, the grass and the guy teaches the battle over money. This is the best example that we have of a counter. Insurgency is what happened in the Bower Romani and as this progressed, You know this this, as this was all taking place this this

of tribal engagement to get in all the different lines of operation. So as this is taking place, this is sort of it sort of of a slow cooker, that's happening because in front from mine in front and centre of this whole thing. There was sustained urban combat operations that were happening. All over the city of Hyades, oh yeah, easier to put the money, what I mean. Did you start to notice like was or something But you know you were making progress like a decrease in the complexity of enemy attacks, or this is what made it so hard was at first for months, you're, not you you're, not feeling the progress here a little bit so that the closest thing I would say which we would get the Intel from the Shakespeare. Tribesmen that that progress was being made that bad guy

we're leaving that you know they. The the tree women will conduct operations. We hear about that they'd be like a we killed these guys. It would get report up the chain of command as a as a right. Don't read, they call it meaning holders in fighting between tribes and we began That's not read on Red, that's good guys as guys that's our people out there killing, bad guys, so we got so that would those who you get those like that word from who was corner read on. I got what level mood I you know I would have to dig in, but at some point you know, you'd get a report back that there was a red on red killing between this I been that tribe and you'd like I wasn't between two tribes that was between this tried that we know that on board and a bunch of bad guys. That's what just happened in Ceuta. We try and clarify they'd understand, but but we'd start to hear that, but there was no dissent

the board reduction in the level of violence for the first I mean it was like five or six more, I mean actually, and I don't even know if at the end it look, he just didn't it didn't get better, it really didn't get better. There is. There was want the last operation, the last big combat outpost that we put in we put in in right in the middle of remedy, and when we put that when we put that last combat outpost and I, when I remember, actually have a picture there's I've think by might in one of these books the picture of myself and gentlemen Carla thrown at the time standing in this combat outpost, and it was smack dab in the middle of remedy. And I had. Actually. I think I actually cleared this with a couple army guys and as a portuguese laced platoon. Without setting up some over watch positions, the over

Normally in these situations there would be just you know if in his guys, were probably kill. You know between five in twenty bad guys and on particular last one that we did there was no. There was no bad guys killed now that this is by no stretch meeting us overcome. It was hard fighting that can happen. But if you had asked me if there is anything we're all, less violence. That was what I was the first indication that we got that maybe things my get better here, but you know that was that we were, we were fighting in, and you know Mikey months or that he He was killed on September, twenty ninth, and so that's nowhere. Where weeks from going home at that point and believe me that hold that that that day was a fight and so there was no real discernible and that's one of the things I ve. No real, discernible reduction in the level of violence but when we got home.

That's when we that's when its change and it changed so dramatically was hard to believe. I remember there was thus Sophia Incident Sophia right in December when there was one of the hold out tribes that had been slow to come over to our side and he came under attack by Al Qaeda big massive attack, Macfarlane General Macfarlane made the decision is not technically on our side. Yet let's go back him up and I was in December right and then, after that it was like the time its that's a classic sample of you know, just great leadership from general strike. Hey this guy's been cause us problems, but now we can help him. Let's see what that gets us for loyalty in the long run and what we have to glues. Well, if ye he hates us or he's he doesn't like us now. If we

but many still doesn't like us. Ok, we're still were wrapped, but if we help him and he likes us Weldon baby- we ve made some. Maybe we made some progress, I mean by, I think, got articles from people who were who were there visiting journalists who were there visiting, and LEO six bring about six right around the time you were getting there, who came back a year later in the summer of seven, and they said american soldiers are walking around no body armor in the middle of counters markets open, and I had just crazy to meet what will the courage of the Iraqis who actually went out to her open businesses again and got their lives gone blows me away, and it just shows you how how quickly things can change you know once people in and how quickly people can adapt to a situation once they feel safe and once they feel like there's something to look forward to moral and that's why that tentative counter insurgency security of the populace security for the populace is so important because until we have that they're gonna hole up, they're gonna get

passive support to whoever they think is gonna, not kill them, which it doesn't. Take longer feel that it doesn't take long to figure out that the Americans are not gonna, kill you, but the insurgents. So, who you going to help you going to help the people that will kill you? If you don't help them the end, and that's it's! It's it's horrible! and that's why the sword of destruction to be wielded with a heavy hand. When you show, they against those insurgents and at this, in time it has to be wielded with an accurate hand, because if you when you kill civilians, either unintentionally. It's still a can cause backlash. Now I'll, be perfectly frank with you and say that these people have been or for so long that they act. Understood, you know they ve actually would understand when something bad happened, they they would understand and they wanted us to be there in others.

I would say there were still did got guys always come back. Oh yeah, there was people cheering when we when we kill these bad guys, and that was I think that was powerful, most powerful. We had to wrap this up. As one thing I want to leave us with there's a quote from an army first lieutenant and want to read books

talking about this period was read about this period that he made this quote. He said that all the Shi Ites have to do is tell everyone to lay low if the Americans to leave and then when they leave, you have a target list and within a day, they'll kill every Sunni leader in the country. There is an argument, or is it well up? What maybe we'll cover this more as we go to the next episode, Sunda leave you with is where we have some people would say by arming the sunni Tribes COM, Rakkeed police. If we want to Tom there only gonna operate in our own little areas, our we handle it that we were trading. We were getting, we were gaining short term security in but planting the seeds for like longer term instability, because there's no way that issue were ever gonna. Be ok with that. No well

let me say this: when you take the people of Romani from a vicious war torn situation, and you put them in a scenario where there's peace and there's prosperity, people get I'll use the word addicted right when life is good, people start saying: wow dont have to live the way we use to live and when, when I came home and saw that their head. Been success because, like I said, we didn't get to see it with our own eyes, but when I came home and saw that though the markets were opened, And there was kids plain in the streets and there was kids play soccer and there was a girl school girls being taught and that there was

peace and prosperity when I saw that two things number one, this sacrifices that were made by the first the american troops cause it's not it's, not our country. Going over there and doing it. It's it's a hundred percent sacrifice. So the guys, the guys from task you to browser knowing that their sacrifice that they may that they sacrificed their lives, that there were absolute victory, their knowing the army, soldiers, the Marines, that down their lives to try and protected. Civilian populace and unjust. Knowing this I mean every everyone when you, when you walk around with with these soldiers, with these rings with your own guys and and they get killed

You know that every one of those individuals that gets killed his pocket, travesty It's a travesty and there's you know from from our time period. There. There was no love, the initial one one idea was a hundred hundred soldiers killed, The two to aid was about the same, so every one of these guys is a travesty and the the only thing that can make you feel better is when you look at you say you know what what sacrifices that were made. Look at these kids playing soccer. Look at this girl going to school and being educated, look at this family being able to live in peace. So that part, one part too, is When you see it.

When we know we got set pictures home from what remedy was like and you'd seen on CNN or you see it on the news. You'd see what was happening. The other thing I would think to myself is this my work this this I've actually thought this will work this out. So I started thinking this is going to work. Because these people that live there look, we they'd now shown that they had the kind of grit to stand up and fight, and not so much the iraqi army- yes a little bit but the local populous that they if they got together they would stand up and they weren't going to put up with these insurgents, and that meant this could work, and I thought you, what who's going to a lot look like us shakes that are busy. He's a gangster he's bad ass,

If he's there he's not gonna. Let this happen again. Why would they and now we got all these tribal guys working together? Why would they ever let their there? now prosperous and peaceful city. Why would they ever let it slide back? I think we're going when and by we I mean, I think, they're iraqi people are going to win and be, I think it's gonna work and so those two things knowing the sacrifices and seeing the results was. What was the dinner was, so it was enough to get Hence a critical mass of people in the american government that it could work. I mean, because we were on our way out the door with our tail between our legs when you guys into Romania the end of it. The people who were saying this is a winner will fight them. You know had enough juice and the government, the Bush administration, to push that argument and they got their chance after the six elections we got the surgeon or so

Let me add that it is not an exaggeration to say that by me, all of that was riding on the outcome, a remedy. Yes had. We lost remedy in that do We were there's no way anything else. What happened to just me, the surgery would have happened. Absolutely in search really was enough. To too was a good tipping point to start really moving the rest of the country in the right direction. With the same type of strategy that was used in Romani, we're not gonna, do drive by. The counter insurgency were to get in. There were taken trawl when a shovel to protect the local populace and then well, sure we'll get into a next time, but you know when a plant, when tree first starts to grow. Its roots are very deep and it doesn't take much of a windstorm or much rain to uproot that thing and send it down the river and although this tree was looking green and was

starting to grow roots. Wasn't there yet prohibited wrap it up for this one. If you listen to this part, gassed then well I appreciate you listening to it. You can also check out our other part ass. I got a called John. About gas counterpart ask the Warrior kid park. I got a pocket called, grounded Darrell has got upon gas called martyr made. You can For all these part gas, by getting gear from Jacques store or origin main. So

echo store, dot com or origin may not come out of a consulting company called echelon, front door. Come we have people, learn leadership and align leadership inside companies and with that thanks for listening as things unravel MRS Jacko Indira out.