« The Joe Rogan Experience

#1058 - Nina Teicholz

2017-12-28 | 🔗
Nina Teicholz is an investigative journalist and author of "The Big Fat Surprise: Why Butter, Meat, & Cheese Belong in a Healthy Diet" https://ninateicholz.com
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
hello friends friday night las vegas nevada that is holy that's tomorrow boy that happened quick this week is flown by it was just christmas friday night i'll be at the mirage in las vegas nevada with the great and powerful ian edwards then sunday night ian and i will be at the wiltern theater in los angeles for to show seven hundred and thirty and ten p dot m i think the temp i basically sold out but there are some tickets available for the seven hundred and thirty joerogan dot net forward slash tour for those tickets and many more got a lot a lot of comedy dates coming up you who i mean that sounded aggressive this episode of the podcast is brought to you by square cash square cash is the simplest way to pay people back friends family co anyone really
sending receiving money is totally free and fast and most payments can be deposited directly to your bank account and just a few seconds when the future folks this is how it works in the square cash app you link your debit or credit card select an amount to send and then type in and phone number or email address to complete a payment they'll get a notification that they've just of money and that's it there's no gimmicks just cold hard digital cash it's that simple folks download the free square cash app for ios or android now it says now it's very aggressive you listen to it cast you really have time to do it now write it down and do it at your convenience but it is an excellent way to send people the chat a square cash
and again it's available for ios or android we're also brought to you by texture quality matters ladies and gentlemen do you know this listen were you looking for dependable political reporting high quality storytelling or the latest on cultural and entertainment patterns magazines deliver it all with high quality writing and beautiful photography and now you can all your magazines in one place with texture the texture app gives unlimited access to over two hundred premium magazines texture has leading titles like time the atlantic the new yorker vet fair and wired and right now you can try texture for free it's better than print magazines weave together great writing beautiful photography tell stories better
expand your knowledge and simply entertain national geographic takes you further away the atlantic gets the heart of the issue people helps you relax on bulshit wired in vogue let you see the future the quality of magazines should be available anytime without needing carry them around or have them clutter up your home well there's a better way and the better way is texture texture app delivers unlimited access to two hundred prima m magazines and again right now you can try it for free free yes third the crack dealers man they're gonna get you can give you that can eat for free gives text baby just imagine having your favorite magazines and their back issues anytime anywhere to start your tech
your free trial go to texture dot com slash rogan if you choose to continue podcast listener we'll get texture for just nine dollars and ninety nine cents a month that's so sweet for two fuckin' magazines and that's over thirty an author listed price so go to texture dot com slash rogan to start your free trial today that's textured t e x t u r e dot com forward slash brogan textured dot com for central yeah and i said my guest today is nina anti shoals need that is a science journalist and she's the author of the incredible the big fat surprise it's an amazing book she's an advocate for nutritional policy based on rigorous science and i very much enjoyed talking to her so if you're into these health based
fast we get a lot of information that really rings true to you give it up for nina titles the joe rogan experience nina how are you hi welcome here thank you for doing this good to be here so a big fat surprise with a big fence prize that better meet antes do not cause heart disease that saturated fat doesn't cause heart disease that fat doesn't make you fat yeah low fat diet doesn't make you healthy that's my book yes very controversial pull this sucker up real close to paint their right there yeah okay beautiful very controversial in this day and age it was even more controversial when the book came out which isn't at two thousand for
team but you know we seen at an almost complete sea change on this subject not at the expert level but you know there's a real a ground swell in a change of thinking i think it i think in part really triggered by my book uh which really laid out all the arguments for come to believe that saturated fat is bad for health why we believe animal fats are bad why do you believe why do we believe that cause heart disease and really tell that whole story of how we started down this path believing that fat and cholesterol cause heart disease make you sick cause cancer make you fat and it's a wild store it's just an incredible story the politics of personalities it really is a story more about politics than about science feel vindicated when the new york times article came out where it showed that the sugar industry had bribed the scientist to lie about data and falsified data that showed that saturated fat was the cause of heart
instead of sugar that was fairly recently right it was after your book that was an you know that's a all part of the story i mean i have documents in my book there's there's maybe a hundred different you know documents you can find where companies are trying to sway the interest is there trying to pay i scientists basically there's so much money going into nutrition science we really it's amazing how so people know about how much nutrition science is funded by the food industry and that was one small example where every scientist had received money from the sugar industry and what the this call contended is that that's what pushed them to blame fat and not sugar for heart disease actually don't believe that that's what happened in that particular case for those harvard scientists in 1950s because i've studied them
extensively for my book i read like well it took me nine years and i read like ten thousand scientific papers so i knew the work of those harvard scientists i knew everything they had written one of 'em is named mark hegsted who was very influential and the reality for him and his in his colleagues was that they truly one hundred percent believe that fat and saturated fat and cholesterol cause heart disease and they had believed it they had believed it for more than a decade before the sugar industry came along with that proposition for them they really believed those early scientists were true they were not corrupt they are they were actually not corrupted by industry they were true believers and one of the things that my book explores is this phenomenon that happens happen then happened today where scientists they come to fall in love with their belief you know they fall in love with their own hypothesis so humans it's a problem with you
exactly right so this is what we all do we all follow with an idea we believe something and we only see things that confirm it and we kind of ignore everything that contradicts it well in science what scientists are supposed to do what they are taught to do is to not behave in a human way they're taught to rigorously trust their beliefs they are taught to try to find every way to shoot down their own hypothesis that's the job of being a scientist that's why they seem so cold and
passion it or should to us mere humans but in the case of nutrition science that didn't happen they fell in love with their idea it was like a favored child they all they did was try to find evidence to support it they cherry pick the evidence again and again and they completely ignored or actively even suppressed any information that contradicted their ideas so this scientist mark hickstead at harvard he in his favorite colleague ancel keys who is from the university of minnesota they would actually bully and kind of stomp on nine test who came up with contradictory information they would actually suppress stuff they were they were and this is still going on today which is what makes it such an interesting story i mean today it's
the same phenomenon in nutrition signed this is the when interest in science started and it's it's the legacy that continues today which is that i any papers to the contrary you know hard to get them published hard to get them in to discuss too hard to get them presented expert meetings and it's it's been driven by people who are really married to their hypothesis about what a healthy diet is so you feel like what happened was the sugar industry came along and they found these people that already had beliefs that a lined up with what they were trying to sell right so maybe they weren't even so or so corrupt like they said all the scientists know more than us just pay them to get research out you know you can't blame industries for trying to protect their products every industry diane but yeah i mean it's just what industry does and you know if there there was another story out recently about how sugar industry didn't pursue research
they had done that seem to show that sugar cause cancer well i mean if you're the sugar industry like what is your obligation to keep going i mean i not saying that you know there are no angels the word which we should expect corporations to be angels what what you do expect is for your scientists to behave in a principled way right right so we should expect yeah i mean when it gets to a certain but what i think if you look at the cigarettes for instance in the tobacco industry like the the there's large market for something we know kills people i mean you don't have lie about it you can have a warning on the label and it still makes billions of dollars a year tell everybody hey definitely give you cancer keep smoking it and i'll go ok and they'll buy it they'll keep buying it so it's it's not really that you need to lie about things you really don't i mean oh are more than willing as long as it hits the right buttons and switches
the brain and their receptors they're more than willing to put their health in danger for some temporary mouth pleasure yeah and this kind of goes to the subject is debated in the food world which is you know how much should the government be telling people what to eat right right so there are people who say they believe sugars like tobacco if you eat it you will probably a lot of sugar you are much more likely to get diabetes and heart disease i mean i think that if you had a lot of refined carbohydrates or maybe even if you eat just too many carbohydrates period you're more likely to get diabetes and heart disease and become so you know should but people like it they do like him and then there's also people that are on a plant based diet like uh my friend eddie who you just met was right before you who's a vegan now he's been a vegan we say a couple years three years and he said he's way too many carbohydrates and he's admitting it and
not not exactly knowing how to fix his is cravings in his urges you know if you are on lately plant based diet it's really hard to just go all fats and and and get the proper amount of unsaturated and saturated fats in your diet mean so people aren't vegan diets for many reasons and that's their own personal choice reality is that the a large body of rigor research by that i mean randomized controlled clinical trials and thousands of people showing that a diet higher in fat and lower in carbohydrates leads to better outcomes in terms of diabetes obesity heart disease this is the biggies right and so low in carbohydrates is a way to reverse out of those diseases if you're on a vegan diet it's just very hard to do that and a low carb way you know what do you eat is your your source of protein and fat there's just there's there are some plant fats
i have a lot of coconut oil and the condo had a lot of avocado but you know it just becomes hard like what do you what do you put on your plate for dinner every night you know like if you eat meat you have these meet i mean that used to be just at the center of the the dinner plate but it's it's hard on a vegan diet other thing that's very hard to be indicted staying you be really careful about nutritional supplements and because you cannot get a get all the nutrients that you need naturally from the foods that you're eating and and also some of those nutrients are not as by a digestible mean you're by dozens or them as easily like iron from spinach is not as observable as iron for meet so so it's hard it's hard to stay healthy on that diet yeah that is the big misconception right when you look at the total amount of iron ore protein or anything in a plant based diet does the bioavailability of that there is evil it's less and people don't understand that so when people do
hold up charts that show hey you can get a cup of broccoli and that has the same amount of protein as a cheeseburger oh no it doesn't it really doesn't it might on paper but in terms of how your body absorbs it it's not equal no or you know another example of carrot supposed to give you vitamin a right carries don't get they give you a precursor to vitamin a called nodes can it convert and divide them in a knot that efficiently most people can't convert that efficiently so they're not getting the kind of vitamin a they need and what is vitamin a come from what food sources you know stuff my head a good source of vitamin a source yeah it's animal you could let's see i think you get pork vitamin a sorry i should know that but i but but you can get all the vitamins and minerals and nutrients that you need from animal foods ann you'd have to we'd have to eat like this entire studio
full of spanish to get them out of iron that you need and you can get that amount of iron in and as you know in a few ounces of meat so and that one of the i'm sorry can now the other thing is that in order to get protein like if you can get your you get your protein from beans say you have to have to get a complete protein that's your beans and rice but in order to get you know let's say a hundred grams of protein you need to eat like a thousand calories of beans and rice versus say a couple hundred calories in me okay so don't hold me to those numbers but i'm just telling you eat a lot more calories bryant to get that same amount of protein yeah so for a day's worth of protein you're saying obviously when one hundred grams of protein a single serving preferred yeah he's worth of protein right you're probably get i eat an exorbitant amount of beans and rice right yeah or broccoli or whatever the hell else are trying to eat what is it like iron is a big one right i know i have a few friends that are vegan or have been vegan and that was an issue with them was was iron yeah i mean i was a vegetarian for over twenty
five years and i was always anemic an item and iron pills and that didn't work and you just you know heme iron which is the favorite kind for absorption is only available and from animal sources and principally read me white meat is relic like chicken as a relatively poor in nutrients porn iron to so you know the most nutrient dense food on the planet is liver which nobody is used to eating anymore and we i think it's disgusting but it get to but you but know grandparents generation they had they had top liver whatever and onions onions and that's very nutrient dense we stop eating it because it's high in cholesterol so too is the consequences of having what we did was as my book is about but it's you know
started starting in nineteen sixty one we basically the american heart association was the first organization to say don't eat saturated fat and cholesterol to avoid a heart attack and that was based on at the time really weak evidence uh something called an observation ull study control association but not causation and i'm you know they were just enormous unintended consequences at the time so actually this harvard scientists markets heck said this was you know he was one of people behind this and he said we we imagine the benefits will be great and we cannot imagine what the you know what the if they're at their kid that there could be any negative consequences something like that and this is kind of fun to
the tragedy of any kind of policy especially when it comes in trying to buy an organization like the powerful organization like the american heart association or say our government they do what they think they make kind of make a best guess and i can't imagine what with the unintended consequences be what would be the unintended consequences of say limiting foods with cholesterol in them well not eating liver not getting are not getting all it not not not eliminating one of most nutrient dense foods on the planet from our diets and so many other things again no egg white omelet how many a quite have you seen yeah i'm not in those but the real common night was soon as i found out that there's a lot of nutrition in the yolk and that's like one of the healthiest parts the egg i was so confused as like what is that what's the egg
right thing then why is everybody going with egg whites because they in the episode the yoke is where the cholesterol is so that's why we stopped stopped eating a give oaks and that's the a yoke is also where all the nutrients are including things like lou teen n f which is four i healthy brain development i mean there's all kinds of things and things that are coleen also for brain develop and that you can really not easy to find you can't find them easily in plant foods or at all and they are crucial to human development so you know we eliminate these foods you know it's ironic like the cholesterol is the cholesterol is essential to every cell in your body we make cholesterol we eat cholesterol it's part of what you know is and it's a building block for all of our hormones and you know coupled with cholesterol are all the nutrients needed to sustain life so we eliminate all those foods i know this
that you're saying what you're saying but most people when they hear that i like well no cholesterol is bad it gives you a heart attack my dad is on cholesterol drugs he's on statins to keep pastorale out of his body yeah well you know it's been like sixty years of all of us you know all of us believe saying that fat and cholesterol bad for us right believing cholesterol is bad you know when i started this my whole this any for me it was you know as i said vegetarian been vegetarian for decades had need a piece of red meat hadn't eaten with butter for decades like barely eaten you do it for ideological reasons or health reasons i wanted to be thin like all girls i like it started when i was like a late teenager and of course i became fat like
i much thinner now as a ghetto middle aged woman and honestly then i was i was all through my young adult years i was like twenty five pounds overweight but i just carbs as i ate a high carb diet you can okay as a vegetarian you're like okay don't eat them don't get you go to the the message in the dining hall in college i don't eat the meat don't eat the cheese denny this thing have a solid and you're starving so then you're like okay get the bag of mm's and that's what people do you know they're starving you're starving on that diet what is c sheeting what is c sheeting foods are protein and fat i mean that's actually mention in scientific experiments where they they put stacks said the one experiment a put it stacks of like pork chops in front of people and they just said he you know
stop being done and and and people just could not over eat on that food you you fill up on fat and protein and they discover that those macronutrients are uniquely satiate ing where carbohydrates you know over on cookies crackers trips pasta so easy i whole box of cereal i mean you know in my vegetarian days i could i could eat a box of cereal no problem i'll eat a big bowl of pasta on the days that i do cheat and even though stuffed i'll still keep eating i'd see there's more left is more left no one's going to eat that i mean that i just put in my bowl and just keep eating what just your body craves it in some weird way well or alternatively like another physiological explanation is that your body keeps eating because it still hasn't got and what it needs it hasn't gotten that that the nutrients that it actually needs for to to to build the cells
you know you're not giving it what it needs until you eat the right foods is it possible both things are going on that your body hasn't and what it's needs what it needs so there's that crave but then there's also this thank the intoxicating carbohydrates i'm going on or as you're eating it in your just like your sugar levels are getting jacked and you just want to keep going so what you're talking about think is a little bit more like the glucose roller coaster that happens and that is part of carb addiction and then that is is you eat carbs really any kind of carbs because so i'm talking about bread pasta you know healthy whole grain bread pudding little air quotes around healthy and and and and eminem is and snickers bars whatever's whatever you want any of those foods when you eat them they're converted in your blood into glucose cake glucose is a simple sugar in your it goes around your blood and and and it's like a quick fuel
your body uses that up and then when it's gone you want another hit and so that's the side that's the roller coaster so like you have cereal and oj for breakfast oj another just simple sugar and then by mid morning you're starving right whereas i think maybe your listeners think you've talked about in your program before but if you become what's called a fat burner which is somebody who your primary fuel is not glucose it's fat with the fat in your body that you store in your body and also the fact that you eat right so you think about like a hybrid car you can have two fuel sources as a human being you can either live on glucose or fat if you got a healthy metabolism you can switch back and forth between them right so i'm i'm a i've trained my body to be a fat burner right so i can live off of fat
i can be the electric car but when i eat you know when i eat carbs then i can switch over to glucose but i'm healthy enough to switch back but unhealthy people who are unhealthy and it would just been living on carbs for really long time mainly glucose they can only they can only get their fuel from glucose and if they don't have glucose they just bonk that's why i like you have long distance runners who are going to constantly sucking down those what are those called those like glucose packs and things they can't switch over to fat to burn their own fat even this is amazing thing like even an obese person imagine iraq a like a three hundred what woman what are those the that all that fat on me that is fuel that is like that is like the miracle of of humans to be able to just that's like having gone all
strapped all over my body right i should be able to access that fuel that's my fuel source yeah why do we have fat instead fuel stores becomes a burden it's becomes blocked and i can't access it because i don't know my body doesn't know how to burn my fat and that's what happens when you live too long living off of with glucose as your only fuel source you cannot switch over and burn your own fat it like living on top of a well and not having a bucket to get herself drink of water and then you you know and then you you just you you die of thirst i mean that's a crazy way to look at that you granola bars dropped over your body but i think that's a good analogy that's why you have that's all all animal as you know are mammals have fat because you know what do you
when you're it's at night you can you don't you're not eating all night long you have to have fat on your body right no that's you get to live out of something and that's how humans and that's why you know humans became really good at at storing fat because it meant we could do other things were not like group gonna chimpanzees who have to eat all day long right or like these people who are fruitarians carians and and like proud of living offer free i have to eat all day long to to have it like that so they have to do all day but we we nutrient dense foods like we'd meet that humans evolved to eat meat so that's nutrient dense so we don't have to eat all day long so we have time in our hands we have time in our hands do podcasts build the taj mahal do other stuff 'cause we don't have to eat all the time and we can live off of our fat if we are eating well well the idea that you're
that all that that burdens you so where you're if this got or you have this fat all of your body and depresses you that literally the change the point of view the perspective to look at that as fuel you literally have tool hang off your body you just to figure out a way to get your body to access that and will literally eat it away did you ever see robb wolf was talking to us about there was a study where they took a man who is severely obese and they had him fast nothing but water and some sort of vitamins for three hundred plus days and he end up losing not just all the fat but the crazy thing was his skin receded as well and he didn't have the loose skin that normally is associated with rapid weight loss so when you get someone is incredibly obese make sure down to a normal size person one of the things they have to deal with routinely as these giant flops of ski because your body used to being so big
but apparently at least in this one case this guy as he had gone through this enormous metal controlled fasting skin shrank as well like his body eight the fat and in in iraq guys that in his body was shrinking everything sort of shrank up in proportion thing is amazing and i wonder if that could be replicated or if he was just very uniquely had the genetics or with the circumstances were you know some people skin varies right that's why some people get stretch marks if they just get a little bit of weight and other people don't yeah i no i mean i think that this is one of the theories behind internet i mean dramatic fasting like that is just for anybody thinking about it is you know that's
initially dangerous yet another so it has to be medically supervised but you know people there's intermittent fasting that people do with a fast for you know for like i do i never read before noon so and and and and people do it for a little bit longer periods of time is sort of induces a state what it does is it kick starts this ability for your body to to get into fat burning mode and to stay in fat burning mode and so you know what you want to do is you want to if you have excess fat on your body you want you want to live off of that fat so it'll disappear you want instead of taking in food is your fuel source you want to live off your fat until you you you you know until it is gone or in never that is gone that you're happy so and that's what fat burners do
and the way to do that is to keep carbs low because carbohydrate the moment you have glucose in your blood system your body prefers glucose it's a quick head of fuel right your body will always prefer glucose and once you have glucose circulating in your blood it's like it's like going up if it's like being at a teller's window in a bank it's like everything shuts down you cannot get to your fat cells forget it's like we're close now get can get your fat as long as you've got good because that's what you're living office so the line was about to do that because it prefers glucose blue causes your preferential fuel source just is i don't know it because it was rare you know you can casually would come as honey or it was it's it was just it's a it's a quick efficient source of fuel and so your body came to for fear to prefer but once you're so you want to stay away from glucose in order to access your fat that's just the reality and so fasting is
really doing that you can do it for a little while you can do it you know just if you just fast in the morning so your body is basically fast at all night long you fast through the morning and then you have to use your your fat burning all that time yeah most people are not aware of that you know it's this is a relatively new situation i practice it i do intermittent fasting i do have a fourteen hour window at night where i don't eat and i think the more people do that the more they understand that like your body will burn off way more fat if you just live like that if you just force yourself to only inside of a ten hour window yeah so and the key to that is you can't
eating a lot you can't get a high carb diet and then fast if you're used to eating a lot of carbs your body will still preferentially need those need that glucose and you'll still be on that roller coaster glucose cycles it's it's i don't know i think it's pretty hard to do fasting when you're in a high carb diet and you're right this is all pretty this is all new science so just to you know if you want a little bit of perspective on this really all this science third ed in the early two thousands and it started so so the long history is so nineteen sixty one and how to sociais intel's all of america stop eating fat and cholesterol so you don't die of a heart attack right that was heart disease had risen from pretty
out of nowhere in the early nineteen hundreds become the leading leading killer in america president eisenhower himself out of the oval office for ten days with a heart attack and it's just a huge public health emergency and this ancel keys this professor at university minnesota he came up with this idea that it he and mark hex did the one from harvard said it was it was saturated fat and cholesterol that cause heart disease and so that's that's when that whole hypothesis was born and it became enshrined as paula see the federal government gets on board in nineteen eighty and that's the beginning of our dietary guidelines so now the whole country is
not only avoiding saturated fat and cholesterol but also at this point all of fat suspects so big it's like just cut back on all fat and that was a different reason that's because fat is is just as denser it has more calories per gram at about nine calories per gram versus protein and and and fat which have i'm sorry yes in carbohydrate which have about four five calories per gram so it was just thought prudent looked one way to keep people then is just to keep their calories down and we can do this just by reducing fat because fat is has more calorie dense so now we're on the low fat diet an were avoiding saturated fat and cholesterol and the government is enormously powerful and so as i think you know and so it's just that all americans are given this diet right all doctor everybody every every health professional on the frontline every dietitian
free medical doctor every nutritionist is pushing this low fat diet but all cattle across the country are bred to be leaner the whole food supply changes right foods all sorts of low fat foods appear in the supermarkets everything goes low and people dramatically change the way they eat i mean just some numbers like wheat thirty four percent less beef than we did in nineteen seventy we about twenty five percent less red meat overall wheat seven nine percent less home milk we eat you know we that i think about nineteen percent less animal fats all together eggs are done i mean everything all animal foods came down and we dramatically increased grains we eat thirty percent more carbohydrates carbohydrates overall forty percent more grains almost ninety percent more vegetable oils these of course if you're not eating saturated fats reading polyunsaturated vegetable oils so
we had this huge change in the way americans eight and one thousand nine hundred and eighty is also so that's the beginning of the dietary guidelines for all americans itself at the beginning of the obesity epidemic you see obesity rates of obese kind as it's very slowly gradually going up until nineteen eighty and then they start to just take a sharp turn upwards and they have you know barely an barely stopped so in the early two thousands what happened well journalist named gary taubes wrote this front page new york times magazine article saying you know what what if it's all been a big fat lie and basically kind of revived the idea the atkins diet and says you know the atkins high fat low carb he'd been he had promoted
side effects from the early nineteen seventies on but he had really been vilified everybody thought he was a quack and at that point there really was no science to support him i mean he would say what look i've healed all these people and look at all my medical files go through my drawers look at my office and everybody say you know it doesn't matter what we do there are no clinical trials there's no science behind your diet um but gary taubes k with this article and then he came out with a book in two thousand and seven and a lot of people read his work i mean even though he was vilified and attacked and he but he was brave and a lot of scientist read his work and a lot of scientist who thought you know something is going wrong in america you know our obesity is up type two diabetes is up none of the explanations that we have are working the low fat diets not working for it to just
let's continue to rise um and so scientists typically not in the field of nutrition because in the field nutrition it's considered heresy still to research the low carb diet still uh but scientists from different disciplines started to do controlled clinical trials on car reduction carbohydrate reduction the opposite of low fat diet the opposite of what the it was telling people to eat and so there started to develop this body of clinical trial research and they're now nearly a hundred randomized controlled clinical trials on this low carb diet and they all kinds of different populations and they really consistently show that it not only help people lose weight
and that was always known even the days of robert you know of atkins right but people is that yeah i get my waist line but you know pay for with the heart attack down the line kill my heart because of the cholesterol but it turns out that the diet is also the best way to control your blood glucose for diabetes it's it helps people's action experiment out now showing that it reverses diabetes i mean completely eliminates that supposedly in terrible disease and that it improves most of the risk factors for heart disease there's a lot of debate over you know which risk factors best predictor likelihood of getting a heart attack but you know for the ones that i think are the most reliable including your triglycerides your hdl over your triglyceride ratio which we don't have to get into that but for the for the most reliable hit a heart disease risk factors that best predict heart attacks
the low carb diet also the best improved those risk factors so what was it that made this so taboo in the food industry or in the food research so like if a health research pictures today wanted to research low carb diet and you're saying that it's taboo what's causing that with all this body of evidence he you this all these clinical trials is obviously not just kerry tops with so many people have talked about this non dogs do you know them a lot of research on and it's it's it's very public lot of people talk about this so with all that data where is the resistance coming from well you know so if the low carb diet it works and is a healthier diet that means the government the government's diet the low fat diet is making people sick and fat right so the entire establishment
i say i'm not talking it's not just the government but every university with all their professors who have been endorsing this diet and their entire careers all of the pharmaceutical companies that and on lowering your cholesterol i mean there's a huge a huge set of interests that are invested for any number of reasons for keeping this establishment diet for you know for not backing off this this diet that they have prescribed to the american people for fifty years you know it's just a huge set of interests it's it's all the things that benefit from the diet you know vegetable oil companies all the companies that produce all the grains i mean eighty percent of things on supermarket shelves are basically made out of vegetable oils and grains a some formulation another insult so you know all those companies all the
versity zan entire nutrition department have been published for thirty years about the benefits of this diet the federal government and all the met the medical professional nations who been prescribing this diet to their patients and their their publix american heart association i mean it's just you're we're in a situation where we just made a gigantic mistake our recent very very controversial and not just controversial but very flawed piece by american heart association where they were talking about the dangers of coconut oils and saturated fats and all this researchers that i've been studying this stuff over the last decade i like what are you talking about like where is this coming from well yeah i mean right now on the nutritional world you have people like me who are challenging mister
quote and you have this sort of the the conventional with the defenders of the conventional wisdom you know doubling down to defend their position what was the position american american hard merican hydrosis remember the american heart association launched this whole thing in nineteen sixty one right there in the original authors so just last year they came out with the presidential advisory unsaturated fats where they said please ignore all those confusing you know internet crazies i mean basically referring to people like me and gary taubes you know about saturated fats we just want to set the record great unsaturated fats and here's our latest affirmation of our our belief that saturated fats cause heart disease so i want to get get into the weeds and all but you know they had the way that the american heart association
all these years has sustained their position that saturated fats cause heart disease is they have relied purely on this week kind of evidence called epidemiology right and and and the government knew that that was not strong enough evidence to explain what that means yeah okay so an ebony allergy are these big studies where they observe people they observe like 10s of thousands of people for really long period of time and they asked them they just give these people a food frequency questionnaire and they ask you okay how many pair did you eat over the last six months and how many prunes did you eat and how much of this did you eat and how much of that and then you're supposed to write this all down like as if any of us can remember what we ate yesterday and you're supposed to make accurate assessments about what you eat and unlike they asked two hundred and fifty the most famous one is that of harvard asked two hundred and fifty questions about what
over the past six months now when they try to go and verify to see if those go food frequency questionnaires are accurate date date they come up they basically is very poor accuracy by their own measures but still they use that data and then they tie they follow these people over ten twenty thirty years and they figure out who is a heart attack who dies who gets cancer and then they try to make these correlations you know the people who died tended to eat more meat so they'll say it's meat that caused you they can really let's say there's a correlation there but it's not causation you can never establish causation which is to say that meat cost zte that death may come is also that they're eating a lot of things with that me right so vital find carbohydrates well yeah i mean the cruel eats red meat other than paleo people now i mean who's been eating red meat for the last fifty years the people who ignore everything their doctor tells them right
so not only the eating more red meat but they're eating a lot of other junk they're probably you know they're probably a date and this is actually mentioned they don't exercise as much they they tend to i eat as well they don't visit their doctors they don't take their pills i mean they're not what we would call comply airs rate they're people who just do not listen to the advice they're given and any no number of those things may have caused the heart attack so we don't know if it's the meat we don't know if it's the complying we don't know if it's the lack of exercise we do know it's the fact that they you know they drink too much beer or whatever we just don't know so those kinds of studies these epidemiological studies are really just they only established sociation and the what they were designed to suggest hypotheses that could then actually be tested and it kind of science called a clinical trial where you actually you know you divide a group up into two parts and you get like a drug trial give half people people drug drug half people people placebo and only that kind of experiment which is called a controlled experiment
actually establish cause and effect so the way you want it if you really want to know meat causes cancer you got to do a clinical trial give half people make them just red meat all day long and the other half can be on the vegan diet and see who gets cancer see which group gets cancer then your testing you're doing actual test um so the government just back to this idea of that you know unsaturated fat an then i'll get back to that presidential advisory the government so they did do a whole bunch of really big expensive randomized controlled clinical trials on saturated fat and cholesterol they did this on 10s of thousands of people
and they they tested to see if giving the people wait saturated fat and cholesterol more of that would die faster or get a heart attack faster and none of those clinical trials could actually show that the people who ate more saturated fat and cholesterol died at any higher rates of heart disease music it's your phone ring your phone going off with music yeah i'm sorry i was trying to figure i thought maybe the sonos is kicking off in the background that was your phone and your musical ringer it's a good it was just slightly distracting so keep gone please tell me to reset okay guys sure so the government actually did a bunch of randomized controlled clinical trials on 10s of thousands of people testing to see if saturated fat and cholesterol cause heart disease they actually took groups of people they do this in mental hospitals where they totally controlled the people eight
and half the people they gave you know me better cheese regular high saturated fat and cholesterol diet half the people they said you know gave them so i feel cheese and margarine instead of better and you know and so i filled me and in those randomized this rigorous experiments on tens of thousands of people they could not show that the people eating the meat the butter and cheese died faster of of of from heart disease died died higher rates from heart disease in fact they showed in one of the most famous experiments call the minnesota coronary service survey on on nine thousand men and women over four and a half years they found the more the men lowered their cholesterol the more likely they were to die of a heart attack what happened to all those experiments they were not that particular experiment published for sixteen years other experiments i found sat
in nih national institute of health basement never published ignored not included in in in literature reviews of not included just ignored or suppressed it's like out of a crime novel crazy and so what was the american heart association doing ignoring all those clinical trials heart association is basically just up almost protecting their incorrect statements of the past that's what they're doing six rate and so it this latest presidential advisory was their attempt as my book it listed all these clinical trials and gary booked did earlier too but people have now been talking about them a lot more in saying like how can you ignore that we did all we spent the government spent a billion dollars more than a billion dollars testing this hypothesis and could not could not show it to be true
why did you ignore these experiments for all these years so uhm so the so presidential advisory was an effort to reckon with those long ignored clinical trials that have been funded by the government i did it in a way that i think was just totally disingenuous and i response to it where i kind of rebutted it in in medscape announcer at peace in the la times about it and he knew where we're at this this point where that these these these esteem public health institute russians are defending their longstanding yet erroneous positions about healthy diet and then there's like people like me on the outside saying and it's not just me you know there's now a whole course of scientists around the world who are saying the same thing as saying these recommendations
stefan evans our guidelines are guidelines are not evidence based we need to our national guidelines are not based on good evidence so this is growing chorus around the world and i'm one of the voices i'm probably one of the more prominent voices now but you know we just we just have national guidance that's just not based on good evidence here's that and then there's a lot of people that get really confused by ideologically based documentaries and things that are trying to push people like what the health and things along those lines they're trying to make some real unsubstantiated correlations between meat consumption and diabetes and a bunch of other like really weird ones that have heard before but here repeated by people like wait where the fox did you hear that and they'll tell without doubt this one documentary but hell yeah
yeah i read a rebuttal to that to which i'm happy to post if you want on there it was short but and so case that's a perfect example like what was one of them was you know eating a eating an egg or two a day is like smoking five cigarettes run like crazy stuff right such a sorrow all of that is based on that really weak epidemiological evidence none of it has been either it's not been tested in clinical trials or the clinical trials do not support those statements i went through every single scientific claim in that movie i did i did i was in greece on holiday and everybody's like why aren't you at the beach tonight 'cause i have to go through every single scientific claim of what the health and show that it's based on this really weak unsubstantiated evidence and but you know these i think that one of the reasons that they made that film was that you know we live we live in
confusing times for science right you make film you pull it somebody's heart heart strings you know it's very that's film is like it's very scary you feel like oh my god poison in the milk and now there's poison in my preg pregnant belly and it's my child i mean it's really effective as a piece of movie but isn't not just irresponsible but dangerous well i think so i mean but i think that what you have is people pushing this diet for ideological reasons as you said there there and that the people behind that film are you know two very very well known and animal welfare activists who just don't want animals killed and
he had those of their motivations and there are other people who are and have they state they have practices or kind of empires like dean ornish has a whole empire based on his plant based diet right there's just there's hold business commercial empires that are based on this diet so even as a whole combination of reasons now there's a part of the environmental movement really believes that cows cause global warming so there's like this whole confluence of interests but if you just look at the health claims there are no randomized controlled clinical trials there's no rigorous evidence to show that that diet is safe or or or can fight disease and they've actually you know a few of these vegan diet doctors actually done
nickel trials and the results were they put people on a vegan diet okay so and they were overseen by the vegan diet doctor himself says john mcdougall did one of these he's he's here in california so i mean the most biased possible person of seeing this experiment right he wants his diet to look good but even then he could get those those studies not show that that the vegans were healthier at the end of the year of eating that diet so maybe it's a healthy diet but it cannot be shown to be true and so it's fine to eat it for whatever reason that you want to but but health there's no evidence to show that that diet will be a good option for health yeah that is a very hard pill for a lot of people to swallow that for good reasons don't want animals to suffer rape so they want to live a life where they have a small footprint as possible and don't harm things one of things that disturb
people to know and this when i describe the process of collecting green in a combine and how vultures will circle over fields right after the combine rolls over because those indiscriminate gigantic machines that might be a football field wide or just chewing up everything in front of am including ground nesting birds and squirrels and rodents and occasionally deer fons and anything else that gets caught up in the middle of it yeah i mean the reality is there is no life for any creature without the death of another creature i mean there's there's life involves death of some kind or another i mean and at you know mono cropping agriculture is devastating ready to all kinds of life it's also incredibly unnatural so natural see thousands of acres that are just soybeans like that is does very very weird it's not doesn't
exist anywhere in the world other than places where people have forced that into the environment yay and i think that there's also you know a deep discomfort with the fact that you know for many people any san tan person that being human has you that we were we evolved eating meat right were were were not before's and so in and we can't really survive that way in fact in the early experiments that they did on omnivore animals they did them on all kinds of number animals in the 1920s and 30s and they tried to see if they could get an omnivore animal to survive purely on plants green seeds and they they found it incredibly difficult to keep those you know whether rats are pigs alive an even
it could keep them alive they live shorter lives and their offspring live shorter lives so you know we we have i think you know ethical beings and so we have a discomfort with killing other animals as well we should but you know that is why i think humans evolved all kinds of ways of dealing with with the need to to kill animals basically just to right the all the rituals the asking of forgiveness the and of course when it was your own animals we all raised our own people raised lived on farms and raise their own animals there are ways you know that it was much more sort of part of the holistic experience of farmer living on the land and now we're also differ we live in cities where thousands of hours away from from where animals are raised we don't really understand anything about it it seems in humane and cruel he won i think an ethical solution for
this is probably going to be this sort of laboratory created meat that is seems to be a flourishing industry right now they're trying to get off the ground with this stuff and it's very expensive at the moment they foresee that in the next several years it'll be economically feasible for people to buy meat from an animal never really existed as a living thing you know if they can do that and it has all the same nutrients that you that you know real animals do that would be a miracle right yeah it would be it's going to be very interesting but then there's also the issue of what happens if we completely stop eating cows and chickens and pigs and what happens to all those animals who manage is that who stops them from over breeding who who controls our population how do we do that we've put ourselves into a corner here
we've put ourselves into a corner if we choose to never eat these animals again how do sustained their populations and what financial what financial reward do people get sustaining them it they're not going to profit from them whatsoever they going have to spend exorbitant amount of money or let them roam free which people if people don't realize that's happened in parts of the world bulls revert to a very strange form wild owls do in australia they call them scrub bowls mean i live in the scrubs and that the bulls are incredibly aggressive enormous weird looking cow things that they now hunt and they have problem with them in certain parts of australia because they'll break into these confined areas where they have domestic cattle and screw up the gene
these cattle with these is wild cattle strains these bowls are incredibly aggressive and they just roaming loose and an is that we're going to do can have wild cows everywhere like okay so what it was a wild cow populations get out of control we're going to bring in lions like what are we doing i don't know you know there's you know this is something i'm not an expert in but i know people you know there's a whole school of thought you really need large animals and you know they're part of that they're part of an ecosystem to have a healthy ecosystem on earth you need animals as part of you know they're they returned manure to the earth and that's part of the cycle of life and that you know can't plants can't survive without him and you need animals actually to as as part of a healthy healthy environment so you know that's something that i'm an expert in about it but i think it is you know i i guess i would say like the kind of really simplistic it's just simplistic thinking to say that we should get rid of all animals or in
get rid of all domesticated animal rights i mean i just think that's that's a it's a kind of simplistic vision that i think a lot of now dealing with simplistic visions right we're dealing with an incredibly complicated situation we've find ourselves in the 21st century you didn't ask for it i didn't ask for it this is just the place where we were born and raised so then we look around the landscape and we go okay what what do i have to do for this meet vehicle what do i have to do to keep this thing optimized and then what do i have to do for my mind that i don't feel terrible how about eating some horrifying factory farmed food where i have to watch some the video on how this thing was created and realize i'm a monster you know and i think that is the motivation for a lot of people to go towards veganism and i think it's a good motivation i think they're they're there their motivations are noble in just if that's what they are but somewhere along the way you get roped into an ideology and you get boxed into these very rigid ways of thinking
and out of those rigid ways of thinking you get a document or like what the hell area well you know i would also i also think thank in the same way that we're divided nation politically we are a divided nation in terms of the way we think in urban cities centers an you know where i've always my whole life but and out in the areas of the three you know that the red states where they they take a they have cattle and you know the dairy farms are and you know this is like we did we actually have no idea for the most part what goes on am and you know we just see like the horrifying video shot by some under cover person or eight it's in one of the things that was sort of surprising and and and like a really beautiful experience for me after my book came out was that i was invited to speak all over the country and you know i'm your classic flyover per
i grew up in berkeley ca and then i mean then i lived in various places in the world but then i settled in new york city so you know i'm like urban progressive liberals they come in other than i'm giving speeches in hum and texas and you know illinois i mean really it was it was really a shock to me but it was truly eye opening like man all the people who you know all these people in the cowboy hats for like i you know i would have been one of the ones protesting throwing let these guys here in my previous life and now i'm standing in front of eight hundred of them talking about saturated fat you know the findings in my book that's what i mean here's what i found an you know i can't say that i did any kind of in depth reporting but but really the kind of conversation is that they're having about how to best take care of their animals how to
inhumanely how to you know how to how to raise fewer cattle and produce more and i mean they like they were really just not the demons that i thought they were and i don't tend to really like know what goes on in animal agriculture across the country but i just want to say like it made me realize how in the same way that we have this polarized conversation going on now in the country um politically the same thing this is one issue be aware that plays out we have such a such a lack of understanding and comfort l conversation understanding between those on the coast and the people were actually raising the food in the middle of the country so it's very convenient and i do it to a lot of people demonize people that live in places that they don't frequent and it's really fun to poke fun at the middle of the country and call him a bunch of dummies and the other reason why trump got elected
i and it's okay to do that you know i've noticed in like you my my colleagues my you know liberal journalists i mean there's like the way the kind of digs that they will take at rural white people is a you know we if that was a good if there was something about a person of color or a woman i mean sure that person would be kicked out it's just amazing the level of sort of the accepted kind of stereotyping that goes on in the media towards these people who you know again that would be me except that i just had this experience mom people love to like you pick and then they do use any means necessary to attack the other side i mean you see this in an unreal and not an unrelated way with the way they make fun of trump's hands like europe you're mocking this man's body like he didn't do anything to have smaller bigger hands talk about his hair talk about his ego talk about
preposterous way he behaves but you're talking about his hands like this you just to saying the gloves are off and you can do anything you want and you can just be a cruel person in that body shame this guy for something has absolutely no control over his plenty of things he's done wrong yeah that you can make fun of but what about all the other people that are reading about his tiny little hands and they look down at their own tiny little hands may have to feel like shit you know i mean that's a weird thing that people do it's very end you see that to tie it off again you really see that in the vegan community there are lot of vegans who are really kind people and then a lot of things always say that they're only reason why are vegans 'cause scientology didn't find him first these mutherfuckers would have joined the taliban if they took the wrong flight they just they found a group and they went with it and now they are all in and you see that with a lot of different ideologies but with vegans especially online
they're sold vicious and they they're the attacks are so ruthless and they gang up they get together and it's like part of the fun of being on this gang is it making people that disagree and i know you've been the victim of this yeah i mean i think that uhm you know i have i am sympathetic in the sense that people are so worried about their health and there's so much conflicting information out there and they don't know how to make sense of it and then there's a kind of and we eat you know you have to eat two or three times a day so this thing is staring you in the in the face you cannot avoid it right and then you find something that you think is healthy and good and pure and rate and you want and it and it becomes an end to be vegan requires a lot of work rate you have to i know because when i was a vegetarian as they constantly chopping and dicing and roasting instantly it's like a lot of
it's a lot harder i realized when i start eating meat you could just put a piece of meat on the stove and that was it i've become a very lazy cook uhm but in any case it is people would come very passionate about their choices and especially a choice that involves consuming food which is so personal and intimate and then it's very hard to you know to to acknowledge that that may not have been a good choice for you or for your kids and and so you know i think it's but it's a become a kind of idea i mean one of the things that i think is happening is that you know we live in post ideological times right i mean you joke about scientology but we live in times where people are no longer ann members of not as
people are members of our our religious right in any kind of traditional way and food is one thing that people become religious about they just do it it's like if it's a type of thing gets a movement and the food movement i mean if you follow like michael pollan and mark bittman and they encourage you to think about it as a movement like as something can join be a part of being a community and without exactly how the vegans look at it it provides everything that you know really didn't religions did provide for people but for the vegans what they do have on their side is that they feel that their lifestyle is not promoting animal cruelty and that gives them the justification for attacking something like you right because right well you know i try to just stick to i mean i tried i really stick to the science on what makes people
alfie so you know if if if you want to be a vegan but if that diet comes with you know for most people if it comes with diabetes and obesity or ill health or the or the failure to thrive at their children or whatever i mean that's their choice but you you can't we can't say is that that diet has any evidence to show so that it provides good health well i think one thing that a vegan diet does is it gets people off of this standard american diet and the and american diet of just a bunch of bullshit french fries and french fries can be vegan right but the
the processed food and things with a ton of preservatives you start eating a bunch of vegetables i mean you're going to probably feel a lot better we started eating actual real foods you know yeah anybody who gets off of refined carbohydrates and sugar feels better so that is definitely a step in the right direction i mean we all agree on that process food preservatives just eating nonsense and garbage and candy and just that kind of stuff if you and be conscious and proactive about the the healthy food you choose and just try to get as much healthy nutrients as you can you're going to feel better but the question is what's the best way to optimize your house yeah i'm just going back to those animal experiments that were telling me about in the 1920s and 30s you know what leads to long your long life in the long life and health of your children right that's the way we used to think about survival of health fitness
animal was how long we do survive and how long your your offspring survive right and and that that was the ultimate measure of that's always been the ultimate measure evolutionarily so you know if if if a vegan diet were to support that that would that would be the optimal diet but that that was just not what science showed so you know i mean there's also a whole kind of evolutionary issue here which is you have to you have to bring an evolutionary science to understand how did humans evolve i mean we're going to cut up ironic position where there's so many enlightened progressive thinkers you are almost like you know just deny who are like denying our evolutionary history right they almost like creationists i mean visionary history if you read if you read the science is about of all thing with me that's just our reality so we can't you know you can't
really deny that and say you know we did not spring out of you know i decided the or you know whatever we we evolved we evolved because we ate meat many evolutionary theorists who believe we evolved only because we ate meat yeah the doubling of the brain size which one of the biggest mysteries in the fossil record over a period of two million years of human brain doubled and one of the primary ideas is at cooking meat and rate figure out a way to hunt these animals made us stimulate our brains and there's a couple other more outlandish theories one of involving psych psilocybin mushrooms it's pretty interesting but it's called the stoned ape theory if you want to look it up but the idea that we are before's
and you hear this tossed around a lot and you'll illiteracy like vegan memes that our teeth versus primates teeth or a a rather a carnivores teeth and showing that we have teeth to grind up stuff but don't these are teeth that have involved for people that cook food grade in this is where it's disingenuous like know that first of all we do have the teeth of an omnivore and second of all we have the tease of an omnivore that has been cooking food right we don't need the same kind of teeth we just need to tear apart raw meat like we did two hundred thousand years ago whatever it was you know it's interesting one of the things that i explore in my book is the way that meat has been value through human history and it was valued as the food of warriors
am and that you know like the masai warriors who were studied by a biochemist at at at the university of and a role in the late nineteen seventies call them aside warriors in kenya and they he found that day eight nothing but meat and blood and milk and and that was the warrior class and that was was considered that made men strong the women were allowed diverse diet but the men who had to be strong and had to hunt they had this just purely meat in blood diet and and another interesting story about how that same tribe was compared to they actually had a vegetarian tribe nearby an that when they were both called when both these tribes were all that for the boer war and english tested their strength to see whom they could hire to fight for them and the vegetarian men from this one
that was that this neighboring tried they they had no strength they you know they tested them to see how that that that device you use your hand to clench see how strong they were they found them completely unfit and unable to do work and they weren't strong they didn't have the same kind of muscle mass early so they couldn't use the men from that tribe and there's you know there's just a rich hill street in literature about how meat was really the food that made you strong and meet with the food that was craved always crave that at that humans craved above all else been vegan powerlifters and a bunch of different people that have figured out how to do it correctly today though i mean i think that there may have but i don't you know they must have take a lot of supplements and other kinds of soy proteins or other you know other things there's you have to be i mean there there are there are replacements i guess in the modern food supply but
and historically based on real foods available to humans for millennia it was me that was what was used to be strong yeah and the dirty secret in the vegan bodybuilder community is steroids and steroids were allow you to get away with a lot of stuff and obviously that's a dirty secret and all the building communities but the begin once they want to just pretend everything look what a plant based diet look at my amazing body sort of yeah you definitely yeah i mean yeah but that other stuff yeah you know i mean this is something that gets extremely nord where it's way more open and out the non vegan bodybuilding community yeah because i'm into the body i know you are you are brought it up i know what you're saying i'm actually think what have you had all this research and all this analyzing this and you know the publishing your book and the way it's been received how
this is the way you think about the way people approach not just diet but all sort of conflicts in life that's a big question i mean um there full of major ways this profoundly this whole research changed my thinking one and so one was really that i changed my thinking about it changed my political views quite a bit i think you your libertarian at least that's what i was reading about you i was always met group in burke a was a real liberal democrat and still am on most issues but here i found
an issue where the government had started this program of telling americans how to eat and just made this huge giant mistake and this spent hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars on this program that you know we have quite a bit since now i think to just make a pretty good case that the government made america started the obesity and diabetes epidemics and continue and don't back down from their recommendations even though they continue to do this and so you know this is the one government program that i have researched in great depth i haven't really looked into too many else anything else in the kind of incredible level of detail that i have this one and it made me much more a cautious about supporting big government program
i'm not because i don't believe in government i do i mean i i i believe that humans need to govern themselves wisely and it shouldn't just be you know which which shouldn't have government but potential to make mistakes the power of government to that once it once it adopts a hypothesis or an idea of some kind and then the incredible institutional entrenchment that happens when you adopt a certain view right and then it's so hard to reverse out of that particular chosen line of thinking it becomes almost impossible you know this institutions are not built for that they're not we built for science you know science is supposed to be as i said earlier self doubting self questioning of new observations so you change your course that's what science is supposed to be like you you test things and they don't work out then you move on to another idea but an institution is is it's it's almost like institutional sciences click an oxime
run because an institution is meant to not flip flop on their publix not to change their views not to loot to allow people to lose faith in them so it's it's it's it's it's the wrong kind of body to do science so it's made me much more much more cautious about how much i want our government to do because if i've just turned over this one little leaf and found this huge disastrous program you know i just wonder if i turned over any other leaf what else would i find i think you'd find similar incompetence probably yeah so so it's changed my political thinking quite a bit and then i think it's also i see the way that the scientific debate is played out and i and you know i know the science so intimately now and you know i know i read every sing
gold nutrition experiment that has really been done since the mid fifties and you know when i see the way the debate plays out in public you know i see that a american her association presidential advisory which ice just see is uh you know it's not honest science or our last day guidelines expert committee in their report saying you know we should should we plant based diet and based you know i can see how bad that sciences and so you know i see that that i can see now so much better the the the at am pr firms spin messages in the way those messages are echoed all over in the way you know it's just the way it's what's happening in our politics it's it's happening in our science and and so i think it makes me somewhat despair about our ability to have good science rise to the top because you know when you have institutions like harvard and tufts an all of our top institutions are so deeply
vested in this wrong hypothesis yeah i don't even know i don't know where people should turn to to you know how how do we start our cells out of this mess and so yeah nutrition science is in bad shape and i and it it's changed my it's changed my faith in expert advice maybe that's the bottom line i i really don't trust expert advice because i see the way it is manipulated by a financial interests and and professional interests and intellectual conflicts of interest and so even little tiny things like anything a warning label on a bottle like you know careful of this plastic or this or that like i don't believe anything unless i go back to the original science and read it all myself which i can never do i just don't trust anything anymore that's not a good
place today it isn't i need to spend time in your isolation tank boy and with that if people want to find out more your book a big fat surprise what else so my book is called the big fat surprise it's available on amazon i have and my main website is is nina titles dot com which is you'll never be able to spell but if you look at the big fat surprise you'll get unit racials an i also started a group called the nutrition coalition which is nutrition coach ten dot u s that is a group that is backed by scientists ph dis m dis the odd journalists like me and we are basically the work of that group is to try to ensure that our nutrition policy is evidence based right trying to to a that suppressed science get those
these out of the nh basement that kind of thing just to ensure that whatever the government is going to tell americans what to eat it needs to be evidence based so we're doing work in washington an you can read about i mean it's not just on fat and carbohydrates that i've got i've got it wrong on salt you know the advice to exercise aerobic exercise for forty five mr our everyday none of that is based on good science so we just want the the goal of this group is to work towards the evidence based policy in nutrition if we can wrap this up please talk a bit more about salt 'cause that's when it comes up all the time with people they want to tell me that salt bad for you mike god that's all it is essential nutrient you'll die without it so the short story insult is that they did a bunch of clinical trials only on hypertensive subjects so anyway already sick that were already sick so if you're a normal person if your child if you're
uh you none of this applies to you should never have been generalized to a larger population they were called the dash studies none of studies were longer than two months which is super short for clinical trial and what they showed was that for people who have already had hypertension and ate a lot of salt the for those people reducing their salt improved their their cardiovascular risk factors they didn't follow any of these people long enough to figure out who actually had heart attack or died they are very very short term small experiments they never tested more than two thousand people on them this whole dash diet this reduced sodium diet that advice should be generalized to anybody else and we have now been for large studies where they they're epidemiological studies so that they're not that's only associations but the important thing about it is that there's they contradict this salt advice they show that really
you go too low people who consume too little salt those people have higher rates higher rates of cardiovascular death so that there seems to be a sweet spot for consuming salt of sorts of the sort of a j shaped curve so like that and if you moderate consumption of salt for the general population is is is sort of the sweet spot for for for good health and cardiovascular health so and so you know the government's advice is lower is better for all americans and that's just not based on any good any rigorous science at all boom boom so our group is working to try to change that you know it just has to change without people like you people like me would be completely lost so thank you so much for all your research thank you for your book thank you for your time here on the podcast i appreciate it and people please go out buy her book is there anything
recommend people check into they can they can donate to the nutrition coalition if they want the dietary guidelines to change just put a little plug for that because the reason they have to change they control school lunches military rations food in hospitals food and utterly homes everything your doctor tells you christians tell you they're like that's where it all comes from so that's it thanks thank you thanks for having me by everybody thank you ready tune into the podcast yeah thanks for everything you fuckers thanks thank our sponsors thank you to text an amazing app that gives you access to over two hundred premium magazines and you can try that should for free at texture dot com ford slash rogan why they letting you try for free because
going to get hooked it is the best way to consume magazines and again over two hundred of them and you can have on your ipad or whatever you know get it whatever you look at on digitally digital the future you fox so start your free your trial go to texture dot com slash rogan and if you choose to continue podcast listeners will get text for just nine dollars and ninety nine cents a month that's over thirty percent off their list price and it is an amazing deal for two hundred magazines a month come folks two hundred premium magazines thank you also to square cash go to the square cash app download it on ios or android now and you could send people cash the simplest way to pay people back square cash
the ios or the android operating systems for your phones mother fockers alright thank you everybody for tunein you guys and gals and non binary folks and we will be back next week with the great and powerful jeff novitzky aka the golden snitch that took down lance armstrong don't don't listen you know i love and he now works for the ufc and he's in charge of making sure these these people don't do things are not suppose do but he's also a very intelligent guy and he is a real expert when it comes to performance and drugs and also he's a big part of the new ufc performance institute which i'm going to try very to go and check out this weekend when i'm in vegas uh see with this high tech state er facility is all about then my pal remi warren will be here on thursday and
i'm going to try to get my man jimmy smith in uh i can't tell you what i know but i know some you don't know i don't know it soon he just left bellator but we got good news coming so that's that's it for now thank you everybody appreciate you much love by
Transcript generated on 2019-11-15.