« The Joe Rogan Experience

#1070 - Jordan Peterson

2018-01-30 | 🔗
Jordan Peterson is a clinical psychologist and tenured professor of psychology at the University of Toronto. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL_f53ZEJxp8TtlOkHwMV9Q All Dr. Peterson’s self-improvement writing programs at www.selfauthoring.com 20% off for Rogan listeners. Code: ROGAN
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
latest gentlemen how are you i'm on the road again just got back from austin houston and durham nc thanks everybody came out to the shows we had a great time next up bakersfield on february fifteen fresno on the 16th of february and then the 17th in santa barbara and i got a bunch of other stuff coming up march in new orleans on the 15th miami on the 16th and then orlando on the 17th a lot of these shows second shows have been added and then which 30th the ryman in nashville holla at your boy first show sold out second show almost sold out and then charlotte is added charlotte first show sold out at a second show that's on the 31st of march april the sixth kings theater in brooklyn oh shit right before the ufc in brooklyn oh shit
irvine improv on the thirteenth and the fourteenth of april and i can tell you about all these things they're not really for sale yet the other ones all right joerogan dot net slash store for all that good stuff this episode of the podcast is brought to you by butcher box butcher box delivers one hundred percent grass fed and finished beef free range organic chicken in heritage breed pork the directly to your door all their or humanely raised the way mama nature intended an free from antibiotics and hormones grass fed beef is the healthiest be fan if you google it there are multi more articles and studies online where you could find out the health benefits of grass fed beef but there's absolutely no doubt about it beef without antibiotics without hormones and is eating what it's supposed to be eating which is grass when you're getting corn finished and corn fed beef
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get out okay dubai square cash square cash ladies and gentlemen is the simplest way to pay people back whether it's friends fam these coworkers maybe you owe you jamie some chatter you pay anybody with this and sending and receiving money is totally free and fast and most payments can be deposited directly to your bank account in just a few seconds here's how it works the square cash app you link your debit or credit card select an amount to send an type in a friends phone number or email address to complete a payment they'll get to know application they've just received money and that's it no gimmicks just cold hard digital cash download the free square cash app for ios or android now and now you download cash app you enter the ford code joe rd in all one word and you'll receive five dollars and the cash
app will send five dollars to our friend justin wren's fight for the forgotten charity justin wren's charities and amazing charity he person overseas it and they built wells for the pygmies in the congo we've done several pod ask about it there is a documentary about him that they're doing right now he's an amazing guy and it's an amazing charity so again you download free cash app for ios or android you enter the code where joe rogan and you will receive five dollars in additional five dollars will go to fight for the forgotten a true win win you get five dollars five dollars goes to an amazing cause download the my guest today careful jordan peterson jordan has been on the podcast multiple times he's one of my favorite human beings to talk to and just i'm just happy that he this is a brilliant man and he has an amazing book that's out right now it's called twelve rule for life an antidote to k it is
one of the most important messages that this this brilliant man has so please welcome jordan peterson don't open broadcaster jailbroken experience join my day joe rogan podcast my name all day boom and we're live twelve rules for life so without reading this so what you're saying is there's only twelve things you need to go in life right that's it this interview that you just did with this woman cathy newman shit was that in the uk it was channel four uk uhm i just went i felt bad but i was also laughing i went to her twitter page to read like each one of her tweets no matter what she says right underneath it so what you're saying is and then some but by the way your fans were mocking her but politely now aggressively
the i didn't read any rude things like there was no with that was there was no insults or there what what maybe a few insults but there's no swears it was just playful marking of the interview that she did with you because this was a ridiculous interview i listened to it or watched it several times like this is so strange like her determination to turn it into a conflict to issues that i have with television chips because they have a very limited amount of time and they're trying to make things as salacious as possible they want have these sound bites these clickbait sound bites and she just went in but incredibly confrontational not trying to find your actual perspective but trying to force you to defy and a non non realistic perspective yes well i was that i was the head to fit girl villain of her imagination essentially well what happened was intere sing to the way it played itself out because
the matter in the green room before hand you know she was being made up and then they put a little bit of powder on me and we had a friendly kind of interchange and then we went in not in front of the cameras and for a couple of minutes you know before before the show got rolling and we had a pretty pleasant back fourth and then as soon as the cameras went on she was a completely different person and i thought oh i see see what's going on yeah yeah well so that kind of alerted me to the fact that there was something in the state of denmark let's say yeah but you know this is also why youtube is going to kill tv because vision by its nature all of is narrow broadcast technologies they re they rely on forcing the story right because it has to happen now what has to happen and like often in five minutes because they only broadcast five minutes of that interview they did put the whole thing up on you too to their credit it
but it hasn't ceased to amaze me yet i think that they thought that the interview went fine that's the scuttlebutt i've got from sort of behind the scenes because i you know i know some people who know what's going on at channel four and their shells shocked by the response you know and and then of course there is the counter response the guardian the next day published a paper published an article saying that you know the head of channel four had to call in police security because of threats you know well first of all you can call police in about anything and they never did detail out exactly what the threats were you know but then about twenty newspapers pick that up and went for the well cathy newman is now being harassed by an army of online trolls for doing nothing but doing her job which well i and then there was backlash against out in the press so it's been a well
well someone took an audit of the actual interchanges between fans and her and there was way more negative ones coming your way yes that were seriously negative yeah that's right seriously negative violent harassing just rude their way more and now and picked up on that at all it was all the narrative was she's a victim even though she was highly aggressive on in this but i know she's a funny victim it's not like she's not successful it was at that point you think you should have to hand in your victim card i think like when you go to an ivy league university it's like right then and there you have it yeah because you don't get to be oppressor and oppressed at the same time that's just too much well one of the thing as you pointed out was when you were talking about competition for very lucrative jobs and you were saying look what you've done like you must have had to work here and she pray
lee was saying how how hard she had to work yeah to get there michael yes of course no one's going to hand this to you know this is why and this is why you were saying you are opposed to equality of outcome because come with i and imagine anything we could possibly strive for in our society that would make it into hell faster than equality of outcome the historical evidence for the pathology of that route is so strong it's like you have to be berkeley ignorant beyond belief or malevolent or resentful beyond comprehension in order to think that that's a good idea i argue for that be with you but i think that even if you came into this with no knowledge of history but a complete understanding of human beings you would say well that doesn't make any sense in one of the best quotes that i've ever read about it is that if you have real true freedom you're never going to equality of outcome because they with real true freedom the freedom to not give each well if you
look at a guy like jeff basals for instance at amazon guy is worth more money than anybody ever that guy works all day yeah i mean he's a maniac is acquiring all these different companies and everything he's doing is designed to succeed i mean he's just for those radical just said yes in in a recent interview and i know some guys that are you know they're in approximately the same universe is those two and they just work all the time that's all the time and they don't just work they work so efficiently and so effectively and make use every second in ways you can't even imagine unless you're in that sort of position so and doing that doesn't mean that you will succeed but not doing it certainly means that you will fail you will use will not doing it certainly means you will never achieve that level of success and that's what we're talking about we're talking about equality of outcome i don't want that i don't want to be that guy i don't want to work like that i don't want to do what he's doing and i should have the freedom to not do that
he should have the freedom to do that if we're going to play this game called capital is in which we're all green is probably at least in as far as the models that we have right now is the best one that we have if we're all going to play this game if someone decides to be the michael jordan of capitalism you can't stop them you can't say no no no you're playing this game too well you're playing this game too hard you're too obsessed with this game you're going to have that you can stop them you can try to stop people from winning crookedly yeah which is what you should do and you know there's a couple of things that are really worth delving into with regards to that too because this sort of marxist notion that all this inequality is generated as a consequence of capitalism and now it's actually technically false 'cause if you look at there's a there seems to be something like a law of nature that described by this statistical model called prieto distribution and it basically suggests that in any creative domain there's going to a small number of people will do almost all of the output but it doesn't just apply
to human beings it employed applies to the heights of trees in the amazon rainforest it as to the size of cities and it applies to the mouse of starts which is something like the more you have the more you get it's something like imagine how that would work with the star as it gets bigger and bigger and its gravitational mass increases it's going to attract more and more matter and then as a city grows well more and more people are excited to move there because of all the opportunities and so some cities start to grow industry and others and others don't but this this this our nomina where a small number of people end up controlling a tremendous proportion of the resource is not only limited to money and it doesn't only occur in capitalist societies it occurs where it's like a natural law so you see the same thing with number of points scored by a you know a spectacular sports figure there's always a tiny proportion of people who are way way ahead way ahead of the curve or people who make records or people who sell paintings or people who compose music or
people who sell music online it's all the same it's the one percent gets eighty percent and so well first we can't blame it on capitalism and second we should note that it actually does constitute a problem which is what the left wingers are always jumping up and down about right like too much inequality starts to destabilize your society and it isn't he is how to shovel money from the top end the one tenth of one percent who have almost all the money down to the people who have almost nothing in a way that's effective so that they don't thrown out of the game completely and so that the whole society doesn't destabilize we don't exactly know how to do that it is a problem because inequality does exist and it does tend to magnify across time and then there's another problem to which we haven't figured out is imagine that in order to make everyone rich a certain amount of inequality it seems obvious we don't know how many units of inequality you need to tolerate per unit of wealth generated but the answer is dead
only not zero it's definitely not zero so yeah so it goes back to this equality of outcome idea this this thing has perplexed me since i've met you and since you were involved in this original debate over gender pronouns an article that was written recently i i forget the exact title of it is i think was something along the lines of why can't people hear what jordan p o yeah saying yeah you are or misrepresented more than anyone i know in a weird way you are are villainized in a weird way where i can't believe that these people are honestly your opinions and and coming up with these conclusions i can't help but feel like what is happening is people are or consciously deciding to ignore reality and paint you as this archetypal figure of oppressive white male
patriarchy ignorance fill in the blank with all the rest of the descriptives you'd like to use but we've decided to paint you in this way like as because they need a target to sort of re in course this idea that trends under people are being victimized and women are being victimized only well even deeper that the right narrative is the way that we should view the world is victim versus oppressor because that's the base postmodernism marxist template it's the right way to view the world is that it's a pop it's a power ground atop what it's a it's a battleground of power interests competing constantly the ones that winner oh pressers the ones that lose aeropress that's the way you look at the world and i think that that's wrong that's a bad way of looking at the world psychologically sociologically politically economically idiot logically you name it it end
nothing but catastrophe ei mean first of all because it puts your group i did today is something that's paramount and i mean that's just not well that that is what we do in the west let's say we put your individual identity paramount and then well that's just that's just for starter it's fundamentally and then i guess the other reason that people are on my based to some degree is because i have made it phone case which i think is fully documented by the scientific literature that there are intrinsic differences say between men and women and i think the but in that this is the thing that staggered me is that no serious scientists have debated that for like four decades the time i went to graduate school everyone knew that human beings were the blank slate that biological forces not param your eyes the way that we thought and felt and acted in and v
valued everyone knew that the fact that this is become somehow debatable again is just especially be it's being done by legislative fiat there forcing it to me as a scientist is just it's just well in in the states too with tight with title ix for example because title ix is sort of predicated on the viewpoint what is title now hold title ix was originally just a piece of legislation that mandated that females sports teams were funded to the same degree that male sports teams were funded in them fucking universities but it's been expanded out so that if there's any differences in any areas whatsoever between the genders then the universities being taken to court and like to let me know but last i look about two hundred of them or up now their funding revoked if they violate title ix provisions so it's become like a vicious rap for social justice warrior equality of outcome types and so it's not just about sports know which got wait that way beyond that yeah it's it's it's become an equal
we have outcome issue fundamentally is an article that i sent you one of 'em was from i think i got outta got it off of dick calm but it was a jordan peterson is having his moment and we should ignore him i sent this to you and there was one of the last part of that might be true one of the things in the article was side in this study that showed very little difference between men and women daddy oncotic so pathetic study yeah send it to you 'cause i was like this is not right well the thing is like most things it's complicated yes you know so are men and women more similar or more different well it depends on need to find the terms first they are more similar well why there's the same species so we could start with that like but the question
what are the differences and how do they manifest themselves in are those manifestations important so here's an example a random woman out of the population and a random matt and you had to bet on who was more temperamentally aggressive you bet on them and you'd be right sixty percent of the time but you'd be wrong forty percent of that i mean that that's not a walloping difference right six thousand and forty it's not nine thousand and ten like so there's quite there a lot of overlap between men and women in terms of their levels of aggression and you think well more the same yeah except so then let's say no no let's play a slightly different game let's pick the one in one hundred most aggressive person from the random population and why all the people in prison are men so even though on men which man instrument yeah it's ninety nine thousand and ninety to ninety five percent right so and off
and if the women are in prison it's 'cause they got tangled up with a really bad guy you know so so one of the problems is that team are where the difference is really start to manifest themselves and so you can a small difference at the level of the average of the average the it starts to make a massive difference so let's say to be google engineer which is hard right because you not only have to be an engineer but you have to be very good engineer say well you have to be interested in things rather than people that that's a huge difference interests like men are more interested in things generally speaking and women are more interested in people generally speaking now there's still a lot of overlap between them but that's one of the biggest differences between men and it's been demonstrated cross culturally it's also very big difference in the scandinavian countries well difference isn't that great even though it's a relatively large difference but at the extremes it's the same thing almost all the p
there are hyper what would you call hyper focused on things there almost all and all the people who are hyper focused on people or almost all women and so how does that play out in the world well in the scandinavian countries it plays out this way but eighty five sent of nurses in scandinavia are female and about eighty five to ninety sent of engineers are male it doesn't mean women can't be engineers it doesn't mean men can't be nurses it also doesn't have anything to do with intelligence differences and interest are big now at the extremes in particular so when you read a review like that the one that was pointed out the first question is well what do you mean by big and little there's more overlap there's more overlap between men and women then there is difference on virtually every parameter ok fine are the remaining differences significant in how they play out in the world and the answer to that is overwhelmingly significant because you select for extremes
so here's another example now the jews have an average iq of one hundred and fifteen so in the typical pop patient overall has an average iq one hundred and fifteen points is about the difference between the typic college student and the typical high school student ok so it's not a massive difference but if you go to the extreme say well let's go look at people who only have an iq of one hundred and forty five with it's kind of where you hit the beginnings of genius level it's like the jews they are overwhelmingly overrepresented but if the small differences in the average can produce walloping differences at the extremes people don't understand that's not surprising 'cause it actually requires a fairly sophisticated grasp of statistics but when we're talking about things like differential outcome in the workplace then you have to take a sophisticated approach to it or you don't know what the hell you're talking about and unfortunately many of the people who are talking about things like gender differences they have no idea what they talk
but they don't know the literature they don't know there is a literature they don't under and biology like the the social constructionist types the women stuff these types the neil marxist they don't give a damn about biology it's like they inhabit some disembodied universe was poorly written at best and did not showed it very poor grasp of the relationship between group differences and economic and people outcomes it's not just that it's deceptive an there there's a need in some way on that side this side of the made the anti jordan peterson side to label men and women as being virtually identical when there so much evidence that that's not the case and we but you're saying well you've never said one superior one is inferior what you are is a guy who is pointing out the reality of the difference between the various types of
human beings and you've been very open about the extremes about i'm i'm well aware of the extremes i deal with mma fighters i know a lot of female mma fighters there as aggressive even as tough as any man you're ever going to meet in your life and i know a lot of men from comedy that are meek little guys who they are not nearly as aggressive as some of these female fighters there's i think one the beautiful things about freedom is that people get an opera you need to express themselves in a wave is genuinely them and whether that is like our friend alex honnold who's a free climber who is like climbing up these fat fantastic mountains with no ropes or whether it's a the female mma fighter like raquel pennington who's just a tank and b the shit out of people and that's what she loves to do all of the these extremes are available to people because of freedom this is now
what is suppressive thing stopping people from choosing these paths i don't know if you saw the most recent slip up by the ceo of youtube i retweet did it today they were talking about why there's not as many women in tech and she basically they both her in the ceo of google settings jackie with james damore was saying in his memo they completely fucked up they tried to define this look at this this is god damn hilarious and james damore had this on his page and the women a lack of texas could you know go to joe would go to james to moore's tweet just go to the the what i retweeted and what he said so there was a study published a while ago about know jamie scroll back right was right there right there just just make his tweet larger there you go see that he sang then i read this right
i don't know how to say her name is susan what sorry i don't know how to say your name wo j i i i said that women define geek email industries as opposed to social industries not very interesting and soon dar sites research on gender of that city's that's exactly the difference in interest that i just pointed out is right he this is what changed more wrote in his memo that got him fired and this in my mind if i was the lawyer for james to more of the like hello do we have here this is this is checkmate yeah tell me is this said they were sorry the doors stores really interesting you know because i think it's such a classic story of of an engine we're getting tangled up in politics so do more went this diversity seminar and he wasn't very happy about it because he knew the literature and so at end of the seminar they ask for feedback well is an engineer so when you tell an engineer that you want feedback the in
here thinks all you want feedback and you want like facts and stuff right 'cause that's what feedback would be like soda more wrote this like thorough memo and gave it to them he said well you know this is what i think here's some feedback and then it trap old around that he got no real response from the diversity people and then he posted it on one of these internal boards at google where people can discuss things which people at google do all the time so it was perfectly reasonable for him to post it because he didn't get a response from the diversity people he thought well let's see what other people think and then it was for a long time until it was leaked into the outside world it was like the more was trying to expose google for for what it is he it's just doing what an engineer type would do would someone asked him to provide feedback because he's not thinking politically he's not thinking oh they just want to hear what they already said he thought they actually wanted some facts anyway so i think they picked on the wrong guy turns out to be pretty damn tough was very
smart anna very kind guy when you sit down and talk to him he's not a sexist he's a he's a guy it's talking about facts in fact he wrote more than a page and a half i believe on this strategies for getting more women interested in tech is not a sexist this is just a guy that was talking about the differences in the choices that people make that is based on just the variations that you were just discussing well there's a good study done a while ago and unfortunate remember the author but they were looking at june hi math prodigies and they're they're pretty equally just did between boys and girls but by the time university came along they math prodigy boys they tend to go into the stem fields but the girls wouldn't and it doesn't mean is the electability 'cause they had stellar ability it's because they were interested and it turns out like the this thing turns out to be a big one so with person melody alone if you measure men and women's personalities and then you add up all the differences in personalities you could tell with about seventy five eighty percent certainty by
looking at a full personality read weather persons male or female so you'd be wrong twenty five percent of the time something like that but if you that interest you that you can get up to about ninety percent and so you know you say well are these france is large well individually they're not that big they make me are more difference at the extremes but if you add them up then you can almost completely differentiate men from women so by that token there very large and the interesting actually turns out to matter alot like it's probably the most important individual difference that has been discovered between men and women at the psychological level and has real decent expl battery power because you might say well men have a slight edge in spatial intelligence and that's why they're over represented in stem fields and women have a slight edge and verbal intelligence this is debatable but literature kind indicates that and that's why they're overwhelmingly the majority fiction readers for example is
that the reason that there is differential representation in the stem fields it's like no it doesn't seem to be it doesn't look like it's an intellectual issue which is also what more pointed out by the way he never said once that this was a cognitive issue but it's a matter of choice matter of interest and women tend to be more more this is also being discovered in chimpanzees and other primates like if you offer baby or chai old chimpanzees juvenile chimpanzees the toy choice between thing like toys like cars or people like toys like dolls the i will go for the thing like toys and the females are go for the people like toys so you see that in primate and you well it's not surprising it's like well no it's not it's not that surprising really mean women have to take care of infants tiny infants and you have to be really people oriented to do that because a tiny infant isn't a new believe aebli demanding social relationship and it's uh
primary relationship for about two years you know and so women are tilted towards the kind of temperament that makes that pasa it's like well is that such a shock really that's such a surprise yeah it's not a surprise and what's confuse sing to me is the narrative that anybody that points out these differences is somehow a sexist or discriminatory or yet worse yeah yeah is but well whatever happens at the victims well i think the other reason that the where the left the radical lefties have been going after me constantly is well one reason is is if you stand up against the radical radical left you're in a group that also has nazis in it because the nazis also stand up once the radical left so it's perfectly reasonable from a strategic perspective for the row take a leftist to say well you're against us how do we know you're not a nazi
well statistically i'm probably not you know so there there's that but but you could say at least the question is but but but but then the next part of it comes is that it's motivated apathy slinging because if i'm reasonable i'm standing up against the radical left and they admit that i'm reasonable there has to be an admission that reasonable people could stand up against the radical left which kind implies that the radical left isn't that reasonable and so while they're not go there of course they're not that reasonable or unreasonable beyond belief as we saw in this situation with lindsay shepherd in canada so at wilford laurier universe let's talk about that real quick because that was a fascinating thing too and that also had to do with you so she
who is discussing you in class and fill up one everybody yeah she's in a communications in the communications department at wilford lori and they were talking about the full of language in communication which kind of what you would do in a communication class she decided to show a five minute clip from a program i had done for tv ontario which is a public television station mainstream left leaning liberal television station news program and a good one at goodwill and i had been on there with a number of other including a professor nicholas matte from the university of toronto who claimed see that there were no biological differences between men and women and that had been the scientific consensus for the last four decades so anyway she showed a clip from this and well she got hold in front of two professors handed administrator adria joel who is basically hired for that purpose and raped over the
all for daring to show this video and she had that where with all to tape it and then she made take public and in that tape they compared really blackly comical you know they compared me to hitler yeah and but then said well it's hitler or milo uniopolis they thought you guys are so damn clueless he can't even get your insults right it's like you can't say that i'm playing a video of hitler for milo yiannopoulos it's like first of all hitler in milo yiannopoulos they're actually not in the same category right except that they're both human that's the narrowness of the category milo's are like comic provocateur and you could hate him or love him or be indifferent but to put in the same category as hitler just how muddle headed you are and then to assimilate me to that category so carelessly like mess about with epithets like that you know hitler was one of
great super villains of the 20th century right mean he was he's up here with stalin and mao in the in the panoply of satanically possessed leaders you don't just sat around not when you're torturing your teaching assistant for daring to show a video so that was a massive scandal in canada with the biggest i think it was the biggest scandal that ever hit a university in canada and it got out of international attention and rightly so and she also turns out to be a tough cookie i mean the last i heard she was she'd started a club at wilford lori and i it was last night or the night before maybe it's coming up they're going to show the whole video from television ontario at a club meeting and invite people to come and discuss it it's like they picked on the wrong girl there too so they certainly did she's obviously very smart you can hear that in her discussion with them and how flabbergasted she was by their take on things but this was
is essentially proof to a lot of but that were on the outside of how preposterous some dialogue was inside these universities they couldn't have done me a bigger favor than having that scandal because when i made a videos about bill c one thousand six hundred and fifteen months ago i said look here's what's going to happen because this legislation is rich in an appalling manner and the surrounding policies are pathological said here what's going to happen so i laid it out and then people came out and said no you being paranoid it's like that's possible know the built legislation is going to have that effect no you're not a legal expert what they'll do you know it's separate center you're crazy you're a bigot you're a transformer you know they they threw everything but the kitchen sink at me and looked so now if you know there is a possibility that i was wrong but the problem as i read the policies and i understood them i knew where they were leading but i never imagined that one of the consequ this is of bill c sixteen in its sister legislation was that a teaching is
synthetic canadian university would be pilloried and accused of breaking the law and then accused of all sorts of reprehensible political beliefs by two professors an administrator hired for that purpose mir because she showed a video about two people talking about the law paranoid as i am let's say that that exceeded the grasp of the each of my imagination and then of course it was made public and people just couldn't believe it and then you think ok well what's the defence well they misinterpreted bill c sixteen like no i don't think so they aren't representative of the university professor administration well all of pimlott and buchanan's colleagues rose to their defense the whole department thirsty when they apologize did it in a very mealy mouthed way like there's evidence that it was an anomalous occurrence so what i happened is they over it
when did the reach of bill c sixteen in exactly the way that i said would happen it was inevitable and it wasn't an anomaly it was actually that's actually the way that the universities are and it is the way that they are it was a a one off it was exactly diagnostic and it's appalling it's appalling universities have so much to be ashamed of their their is an article in the boston globe this week saying the same thing that all of it's crazy postmodern identity pool it takes equality of outcome nonsense is not only disrupted university in a way that might be as far as i can tell but it's rapidly spreading outside into the say business world which is exactly what you see for example at google well that tech industry in particular seems to be mike moore left leaning than pretty much any industry there is an i guess it's because there's so many intelligent people there so many people that have
a tremendous amount of time in universities and they get indoctrinated into this mindset and you're you're seeing that in this the ceo of youtube's response to james damore memo completely misrepresented they're talking about harmful gender stereotypes that's not what he talked about at all what's fat listening to me about all of this is it it just reeks of tribalism that these people on the left have decided i mean and i'm mostly on the left which is really crazy i mean when it comes to most paula season most thoughts of equality in and the idea of just letting people be who they are i mean that's what the left used to stand for it used to stand for being open minded it used to stand for being a reason cool person it now it seems to be all about this very toxic tribal ideology and
this is one of the reasons why so many of these attacks and you are so baffling to me is because there is a willful ignorance or a deceptive narrative is a deceptive description of who you are and what you're saying and what you represent and this can media tly categorized not even convenient willfully willfully deceptively categorized into these category categories of homophobe transphobia sexism these rep mobile categories that if they can just shove saw thing that you're saying figure out a way to push you into this little narrow confined then everyone has to disagree with you everyone has to insult you and everyone has to like take that girl into their office chastise you for even use not even speaking up for you just change she she wasn't yes that's what more fascinating about it than anything
i can give her hell for that like all you can't present something like that neutrally that's like presenting something hitler said neutrally or maybe milo innopolis it it's so strange but what they don't understand and this is what's really crazy is that the world is watching and that most people buy but maybe it's a six thousand and forty we were talking about before when it comes to aggressive women versus aggressive men i don't know what the number is i think most fifty to one actually like i've been what watching the comments on youtube and so forth trying to track this is like i think that i think that what the radical leftists are do thing is overwhelmingly unrepresentative of general population overwhelmingly but there are very well organized and and verbal and prepared minority and they've occupied powerful positions in many many institutions hr one of the things i really can't figure out right now
and for anybody who's running a company that's listening they should think this through to let these postmodern neo marxists into your company through the guise of human resource is an absolute catastrophe e you're going to pay for that this is the itt eology that drives postmodern neo marxism this identity politics what the identity politics movement and its insistence on equality of outcome is powerfully ann the capitalistic it's powerfully ant western why you would let that into your company is so that you can good socially let's say is beyond me it's a big mistake i agree with you but i don't think people are aware of it i think part of the problem is this battleground is largely ignored by the general population i don't think most people are aware of what's going on you are 'cause you're obviously you're deeply embedded in the un city system in canada and you're obviously
now branching out into youtube and podcasts and all these different ways to get this information out but the average purse and that is a ceo of a company or there there can and with their own company they're concerned with their own individual needs their concern with organize something's keeping their bottom line and maybe they're also concerned with looking fair and making sure that they're not prejudice and all of that which is laudable but i just don't they see the wave come now they don't they don't see it coming they don't uh stand it and there in cautious about it but they're going to pay for it well google is a good example because now google is in court prejudice against females and also on the conservative and for being prejudice against conservatives it's like well so both camps after then i think well why is that's like well that's what happens when you play identity politics this tribalism or this is really what i can't stand about identity politics and i've been warning about the consequences of on the right wing too 'cause what i see happening is that as the left like let's say the left
gets to define the linguistic territory which was what i was objecting to in bill c sixteen when it came out i said look i'm not going to use these hello chisholms eansor etc because as far i'm concerned they have i think people don't know what your talking about yeah what is a different made up gender pronouns yeah there's just describe people in a non male or female that's right so there's like seventy different categories of non binary gender or something like that generated now and there's lists of pronouns that hypothetically the people who are in those categories can choose to be addressed by now it has the force of law and so and i don't care if they choose to be addressed by those pronouns whatever that's that's that's that's up to them and girls they can convince or ask or intreat or negotiate with font as soon as this law that's a whole different story ok so now i have to use a certain terminology so then i look at derivation of the terminology say that's terminal
so generated by the postmodern neo marxists oh well i think those people are principally murderous so guess what i'm not going to say their words period because i know what they're like i know where that leads okay so bumps on most people think that's a gigantic step to to go from saying you don't want to says ears or any of these made up gender pronouns to these are murderous people the ideology his murderous the maybe in marxism yeah jesus how much proof yeah right but most people don't under stan marxism like when when you're saying this like when you were so adamant about and i had to start reading about it myself and i had to start doing a lot of research about it myself and i think my people here marxism and they think socialism they think pulling all your money together you know making you know making things more even for yeah like i already in in venezuela everybody has an equal chance to starve to death you know how they
you know how the venezuelan government start solve the problem of kids starving to death hospitals illegal for the hospitals to report starvation as the cause of death right well that's venezuela in a nut shell yeah there was never one sequel there they all have the same number of bones to know on yeah that's a hard the thing but yeah it's it is a horrible thing and undeniable but there's no like the connect between gender pronouns and me this it's a big leak out that's that's for sure yeah sure well that's why you have to look at the underlying etiology you know when you think well what level at the level at which these things should be addressed well is the deck and how much is a political as per kings of this ideology and you understand where the road map leads you understand the x at the end of the road yeah right
salute lee well and i think that's why i recommended to people continually to read soul jeanette since gulag archipelago so actually there is a set of books that let laid this out perfectly you read dostoyevsky's wrote a book called the possessed or the devils and it's it's a description of the initial breakdown of the orthodox christian society in in russia in the late 1800s and the rise of radical socialist ideas so it's sort of like the prodromal russian revolution to brilliant brilliant book brilliant book and it concentrates on the personalities that are involved and then if you read after that so and it seems to like archipelago where he details what he does does in that book is quite remarkable soul he says look the 10s of millions of people killed from nineteen nineteen to one thousand eight hundred and fifty nine in the soviet union expensive internal repression and it's so dreadful that words can't do it justice mean it's absolutely dreadful what happened in the soviet
i mean just for starters six million ukrainians died in the 1930s because of enforced starvation in fact in the night 30s here's here's here's how terrible it was so all the food that the collective farmers new we collectivized farmers had produced which wasn't very much by the way was taken from them and brought to the cities so all the farmers starve to death now here's how drako and it got so let's say you are the mother of some children and all your green had been shipped off to the cities and you thought well i'm not going to have my children starve to death i'm going to go out in the field and i'm going to on my hands and knees and i'm going to pick up the greens that are left over that the harvesters didn't count get and i'm going to feed goes to my kids that was punishable by death you were supposed to handy in those extra bits of grain so that they to be shipped to the city as well so that was just a big think of the fund in the soviet union and what sort of did was say look this wasn't a consequence
of the marxist system gone wrong this was a plants of the marks system it was inevitable consequences of the axioms of the marks a system and any he that out and it's i think you got it right what is the white man nobel price but what is the connection how much tyranny you have to impose in order to to produce something like equality of outcome and thomas souls talked about this a little bit too he said in what the people who are agitating for equality of outcome don't understand is that you have to seed so much power to the authorities to the government in to ensure equality of outcome that tyranny is inevitable and that's right and it other prop no problem with the quality vote come this is also a big technical problem is like well what measure of outcome you know there's lots of outcomes like how happy are you how much pain are you in how healthy are you this money do you have how much appart
unity for movement forward do you have what's the width of social connections like what's the quality of your friendships do you have it does your to art and literature like you know you can multiply the number of dimensions of the valuation between people in innumerable it right because there's there's all sorts of ways to classify people you're going to get equality of outcome on every one of those measures everyone going to have to be equally happy in their relationship why not what white why stop with economically why stop with pay there's no place to stop so and that's it that not to huge technical problem because there is no place to stop there will be no stopping it's like nobody can if anything else nobody can anything that everyone else doesn't have at the same time that's the ultimate outcome of equality of outcome what you think about what that would mean it's terriblr while instantly you think oh well there's nothing but a tyrannical system could impose that have you ever did
dated a marxist porter of you ever debated someone who is pro equality of outcome no they don't debate me really the closest thing i think was too that was the debate idea at the university of toronto about the bill c sixteen issues but they didn't actually have a debate they had a forum which is the post modern equivalent of a debate is supposed to be friendlier i suppose but no i haven't because people don't do it they don't ask me to do it what is it about the that idea or that ideology about marxism that so attractive to young students and to university part of that's a good question i think it goes back to the issue of inequality and and this is something that has to be dead seriously address like you might say well why is the left wing necessary but let's let's put it that way so and then a subset of that would be wise the left wing attractive well the left thing is necessary because inequality the spiral out of control and so there has to be
political voice for the dispossessed and you don't want able to stack up at zero you know where they can't play that even though it's a bad idea not only do you not if people stack up at there are too poor to get ahead at all let's say there are too poor to open a bank account there are two we buy enough food like they're stuck at zero and they can't get out of it it's a really because first of all that's a lot of suffering and that's not so good second of all at least in principle a lot of those people might be something to offer the world or their chill turn right and you want to open a avenues of opportunity to them so they can succeed but so that everyone else can benefit from their success so and then the next thing is well if the inequality gets out of hand too much then the whole society starts to destabilize because if you get enough people stacked up in zero especially young man get enough young men stay fucked up at zero they think oh to hell with it will just flip the whole board over and
it'll settled in a new configuration and maybe we won't be stuck at zero in the new configuration so it phone it's revolutionary thinking so there's law lots of reasons to be concerned about inequality and so you know the voice on the left to say look we gotta peru motorized tendency towards inequality so that it doesn't destabilize the entire society so that it's everybody has an opportunity to advance like yes right you need that ok so that's the technical reason for the necessity of the left and then i think it's attractive because well as young people can be resentful partly 'cause they're at the bottom of the heap so to speak there not 'cause they're young like look you want to be you want to be for an eighteen you want to rich eighty what you and choose most people are going to take poor at eighteen especially if you've been rich at eighty and you understand you can get back there yeah well that's thing you know is that most of the people who or have a million dollars or more in the united states are old well why is that well
really do we need an explanation for that it's like you've had a lot more time to make money how would that be that's the explanation so that's one of the big drivers of inequality is just simply age but it's not obvious that the old rich people have an advantage over the young starting out people so so anyways but any now maybe you're resentful and irritated 'cause you're young and you're still at the bottom of the heap and you know you've got other problems too it's more difficult for people of your race or ethnicity or gender or at least you think it is so you say well i want to make things there and then that's also driven by some real compassion because nobody really likes that the consequences radical inequality like nobody likes the fact that homeless people exist and have to go to the emergency ward you know to get treated and they don't have medical coverage and they have to live in tents on the street and so if you have some compassion then you think well we've got to do more for the poor and dispossessed it's like ok that's
an understandable sentiment but the problem is is that the people but the problem is is that it's that that desire to help is contaminated by resentment and india logical certainty and then also buy something that george orwell pointed out so nicely in his book road to wigan pier it's like the typical middle class socialist this was his diagnosis and he was a socialist by the way his diagnosis was the typical middle class intellectual socialist doesn't like the poor in fact they have anything to do with the poor their contemptuous of the poor but they hate the rich and i think it's even more devious than that i think who they hate are the successful successful rich but really who they hate is the successful it's like cain and abel it's retelling of cain and abel and so there's some positive motivations for being engaged on the left and there's a lot of negative motivations as well and the people who are really
even by the radical left ideology the real radicals they're almost all driven by i resentment and hatred as far as i'm concerned now the let let's look at both extremes so back to the idea of the of the ideological and verbal territory i said with bill c sixteen that i wouldn't speak the language of the radical leftists because i don't think that that language should define the game but let's say it does so here's the game world is a battleground of groups and they are battling for power that's it that's the and some of them win and they will press those who don't win so that's how to view the world okay now the left is say okay well here's the oppressed people the oppressors the patriarchy circle types they should be ashamed of themselves and give some power the right wingers the radical right wingers look at that and they say oh i see so the game is ethnic identity is it its identity politics ok
were white males that's the wing version of identity politics it's like screw you if we're screw you right into groups but we're going to divide into tribes and i'm in my tribe guilty and lose i'm going to get cruel and wind and that's like men you think brothers people in the middle are kind of looking back and forth which side of the aisle politics in the politics spectrum negative falling do i want to go with a do i want to go do i want to be driven primarily by compassion and i'm am i go to accept guilt for my historical privilege so that's one possibility and then i'm lopressor presser i'm a member of the pressure group am i going to it would not to hell with that i'm just going to play to win well then i'm go to the right it's like well my sense is about play either of those games and the reason we shouldn't play them mist well the soviets the left wing game and like killed
who knows how many 10s of millions of people you can't even count it accurately the estimates range from two thousand two hundred million those are pretty big error bars and the maoists maybe a hundred million certainly sixty million so okay that didn't work out so well and then there's the nazis like they played ethnic identity politics and racial superiority like why do we want to play that game but i've been trying to do really what i've been trying to do for the last thirty years is say look is to play those sorts of games but that's not the only game in town to much better game to play individual it's like get your act together stand up in the world make something of your so stay away from the ideological oversimplifications set your house in order that's rule six in the in this in this book so i book rule in there says set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world and it's a very dark chapter about
the motivations of the columbine high school killers and this other guy named carl panzram who is a serial rapist an arsonist and murderer and these he wrote an autobiography and the columbine kids also wrote about why they did what they did their resentful to the core bitter bitter resentful terrable and well i'm suggesting that people stay away from that resentment sinfulness and bitterness even though life is hard malevolence in the world it's like yeah you can tell a story where everyone's a victim because call die we all get sick happened to a sitter bitter and terrible betrayal deceit lies like people hurt us on purpose you know so it's not just the tragedy of life its malevolence as well as everyone's a victim you can tell that story problem is if you tell that story and you start to act it out you make all of that worse that's the problem so this is why partly i got attracted to christian imagery
based in part maybe in christianity that you should pick up your god damn cross and like walk up the hill and that's matically that's correct that's the right answer like you've got a heavy load of suffering to bear and a fair bit of going to be unjust so what are you going to do about it except it voluntarily and try to transform as a consequence that's the right answer it's the right answer 'cause the rest of it is tribalism and we're too technologically powerful to get will tribal again what's exciting to me is that i think this is the first time in my life that i we've ever seen so much communication on these subjects and i thanks so much recognition about the consequences of tribal toxic tribalism this tribal thing thing that everyone seems to be engaged in on the right and on the left
i mean in america you needed to go no further than going back and forth from cnn to fox news to say something is wrong here these are these are is to be news outlets have two completely different narratives and that has nothing to do is what we're talking about with gender politics and radical socialism and marxism what you're seeing in universities though from what i always considered universities great four what i always universities great for is separate thing from your parents challenging belief systems and being engaged in the works of brilliant people so you can compare all of their findings and their discoveries and sit down and debate them in class and when i was did when i was in high school high school newton south high school in newton massachusetts and one of the things that they did is they put on a debate between a guy
from the moral majority which was this right wing christian group that i am not around anymore but there this was nineteen i was fourteen so eighty one and barney frank who was but congressman is now one of the first openly gay guys in congress and and you got to watch these two people in this auditorium debate their point in this moral majority guy had this you know nightwing ronald reagan sort of point of view and barney frank who's kind of crazy he's got but it is a male prostitute scandal and but the gay community it's not that big of a deal and just barney frank took him apart was brilliant to watch but it was a real debate it was fascinating and you got to see a a mediocre mine versus a great mind and you got to see this little thing and i was like wow this is
it was one of the things that's always a try did me about the the idea that two people with different viewpoint can get together in front of a neutral audience and these people can sort of decipher which which way these people are thinking and why they think yeah well in bad is that is an rife with conflict that as that is the alternative is to separate as you pointed out into two camps that don't talk yes and the thing is that the consequences of not talking is that you fight that's the end game because the only way you can stop from fighting with other people is by negotiating with them and you know one of the things that's also interesting this is partly why silicon valley leans to the left is that a fair bit of your political prep is determined by your biological temperament it's a strongly in so if you're a creative type who's kind
disorderly then you're likely to be on the liberal left end of the distribution and if you're a uncreative creative type who's orderly and and especially if you're orderly then you tend to be on the right wing end of things and so and well why is that did those variations exist well they exist because some of but i'm your best strategy is to do what other people have done and shut the hell up and just do it run the algorithm right pathways already laid clear it works stay in the damn rut and move forward ok so that's the conservative approach when things are going right it's the right approach the prob home is is that sometimes it's not the right approach because something is shifted and so something new has to emerge and so then a bunch of people who are adapted to the new and those are the entrepreneur creative types of course they dominate silicon valley because it's a very entrepreneurial it's a very entrepreneurial what would you call it geography
and so they're going to lean to the left but they have to under people have to understand that the left and the right need each other the liberals and conservatives need each other liberal start companies conservatives run them form with the conservatives is well they can only run a company in one direction 'cause they're conservative they don't think outside the box but so if the company is working in the product line is good and everything is stable like higher some conservatives 'cause they'll maximize efficiency in the move down that track but if the track no longer going in a good direction because somethings change the environment change well then you gotta bring in the creative people each other and the only say that we can survive the fact that we're different and the that we need each other is by continually talking we have talked constantly it's like well how much what we're doing should we preserve versus how much of what we're doing should we transform and the answer is we don't know because the environment keeps changing so what do we do about that we talk
now i was on a cbc canadian broadcasting corporation interview a couple of days ago and they took me to task i tweeted out this song this invitation to the boys to fill out this pro that i developed called future authoring and it helps people make up i mean the cowboys yeah well there there an online group there yeah is but they run kekistan it's this fictional polity it's a satire of identity politics essentially we're going to our ethnicity highly demonized santa highly demonized sound right cut and with good reason for it with some individual examples of racism nazism and it yeah yeah there's a lot to miss behavior yeah yeah yeah it's like graffiti it's like online graffiti writing like that so and and they can't boys are the ones who are often using the pepe memes for example and you know the left regards peppier
hate symbol happy the frog happy the for a feels good for all that's right that's right kind of reprehensible frog and so white tweeted to my said don can't boys seek your fortune rescue yourself from the underworld use code peppy for future authoring so it's free for one week so they had to figure out what it meant then i showed this picture of michigan j frog which is the frog from old warner brothers cartoon dancing frog that wouldn't perform when he was watching it so cbc hold that out and said well look aren't you aren't you like ap sing to the radical right and i said well no what i'm doing i said look these people are attracted by the route all right although there satirist's and now satirists and graffiti types and you know they're they're playing a weird so having fun being jadi that's exactly what they're doing they're they're provoking and i might fence was well what do you help yourself as an individual and get the hell out of the ideological trap so here's my program which helps you write about your future and that'll help
you decide who you are as an individual 'cause that's the way out the ideological trap it's like in there so obviously what's the way out of tribalism first layout of tribalism is not to never join a tribe you actually have join a tribe as you mature right because what happens is first of all you're an infant relationship with but then when you move from your parents you have your tribe you have your group maybe it's the music listen to which the gang you hang around with whatever you have to be socialized into the tribe you have to 'cause i is you stay dependant infant okay but now you're socialized into the tribe well is that where it ends like no the next thing to do is do differentiate yourself from the tribe well still knowing how to behave within the tribe well that's the called digitalism and that's i think what the west got right as we figure that out is like you're more than you're you have to be a member of a group because otherwise socialized not good for anyone you not have to anyone
play on a team man you have to have team loyalty but where you should stop you should take the next step and become a fully developed individual and see the problem being just a group member is that the group it's the with conservatism the group is a fixed entity has its rules and its regulations and if you remember that's all you are but the group can so badly wrong so the group needs individuals to keep the group alive and revivify it so you have to be an individual so you can revivify the group that's the cult that's the call in the way to heroism essentially to noble way of living is to develop yourself pass your group identity so that you can re can you're the game when that becomes necessary and i think that there's a influential line of developmental psychology pioneer jean piaget that laid that out as a developmental progression first your
a child then you're a member of a group then you're an individual it's like but to the individual level that's the solution the solution to tribalism but you have to accept responsibility to do that and this is what your future authoring program is basically all about i mean it's a wonderful program and along with this book rule isn't guidelines for life i think that's one of the things that a lot of young people are lacking is a structure to how to go all about establishing who they are in the world well that's you know what's really cool and it's been really quite remarkable i would say is that what i've order when i've been speaking publicly say over the last year and a half because there's a hole in our culture where there should be discussion about maturity truth and sponse ability no ones talk okay so now i'll come up and i'll look like what you do with your life well take care of yourself
but take care of yourself in the way that also means that simultaneously your take care of your family and that and also means simultaneously you're taking care of the broader community so that's kind your goals oriente your self towards that personal success but in a way that success breeds success because if you're going to stab lish name why not establish like a really good and that's a good one it's good for you it's good for everyone else yes that will give you life some meaning now adopt make a plan generate a vision that's what the future authoring program helps people with mega develop a vision of what your life could be like if if it was worth living despite all its suffering like what would you need so that you would be happy to be alive meaningful so you don't get all bitter and resentful and cruel and hostile an idiot logically addled and like murder justin genocidal like none of that like think real hard
would you have to configure your life so that despite its suffering and the malevolence that's part of it that you would regard it as worthwhile that's up to you to develop a vision then put a plan into practice and so when i talk to pee all about this most of my audiences are young men it's probably about six thousand five hundred and thirty five more and more women are showing up but that's about what it is right now the halls are dead silent you could hear a pin drop because nobody said so clearly for like fifty years that almost all the meaning that you will need to get you through the hard times of your life is going to be a consequence of adopting responsibility not of rights and impulsive action impulsive freedom like got it freedom no problem even freedom to do impulsive things fine but that where you going to find the meaning that keeps you sustained through the storms of life that's going to be to take care of yourself you take care of your income
partner you take care of your damn family you don't run off you take care of your community you see the wisdom from the past you stand up straight and be courageous despite the fact that life is tragic and tainted by malevolence like that's the ancient wisdom that's what that is and understanding that their structure and discipline and that you know i in a lot of ways both of those things you scribed earlier i'm in a lot of ways my mind is created and i'm always sort of half pint into things but i'm also yeah right and it's one of the reasons why i think i i so relate to both sides of this issue because i could be one of the reasons you're successful we have easily been some hardcore right wing asshole i'm a competition oriented person i've been since i was a child i grew up compete in martial arts tournaments mean that
you have to be a hard person to do that you have to understand what discipline is but but or that i was an artist i wanted to be a cartoon it i wanted to do comic books that's what i where do you want to be an illustrator if it wasn't for one bad teacher in high school that totally scheid me away from art i probably would have run into that as a as a living where i look at both sides i see myself in both sides yep yep well the other i've been telling young men is that and and this is something i think that you could relate to tremendously is hi i read this new testament line well it decades ago and i never understand it it's the line is the meek shall inherit the earth and i thought this i'm wrong with that that line it it doesn't make sense to me meet just doesn't seem to me to be a moral virtue and so i did a series of biblic lectures this year like fifteen of them not was also a weird little experience that we can talk about but i was looking through the these these sayings these maxims and that was one of them to make sure
there at the earth but i've been using this site called bible hub and it's very interesting it's organized very interesting so you have a biblical line and then they have like three pages of commentary on each line and so because people have comment in every verse in the bible like to the degree almost unimaginable so you can look and see all the interpretations in all the translations and get some sense of what the genuine meaning might be and the line the meek shall inherit the earth meek is not a good translation or the word has moved in the three hundred years or so three hundred years or so since it was translated what it mean is this those who have swords and know how to use them but keep them sheath will inherit the world and that's another thing i've been tell yeah no kidding that's a big difference big difference it's so great and so one of the things i tell young men on young women as well the young man really need to hear this more i think is that you should be a monster
because everyone says well you should be harmless chulas you shouldn't do anyone any harm you should sheath your competitive instinct you shouldn't try to win you know you don't want to too aggressive i don't want to be too assertive you want to take a back seat in all of that it's like no you should be a monster an absolute monster and then you should learn how to control it do you know the express' and it's better to be a warrior and a garden that a gardener in a war right right exactly that's exactly it yeah and that's exactly right and so what i tell young men that they think well lots of more competitive there low in agreeableness you know 'cause that's part of being competitive temperamentally so if there's something wrong with being competitive thing wrong with cheating there's something wrong with being a tyrant is something with winning unfairly all of those things are bad but you don't people to win what's the difference between trying to win and striving you want to erratic beats driving what's the uncomfortable feeling that people associate with losing when they've personally experienced it
they look at losing as they they've been oppressed are they've been hurt but they don't understand is dad is the motivation for growth and one of the beautiful things that i think a young person can get involved in is martial arts because martial arts teach you that in a way that very few things do they teach you it in especially jujitsu because jujitsu is so complex and there's so many possibilities to it that it attracts a lot of really smart people if you think of juju do you would think of like brutish individuals engaging in this hard martial art if you go to a real good jiu jitsu school you see nerds you see bunch of like really smart kids that really get obsessed with the possibilities of this physical language this physical language also teaches you the consequences of not working hard of not prepared of not understanding positions of not doing due diligence and doing the work and it's it's an amazing amazing scaffolding for
helping your life but also teaches you how to lose yes that's very important definition of a winner is someone who never let losing stop them yes you know and the idea that a single los in the competition is somehow a defeat is completely insane's first of all well let's say your hockey player in your good player and you lose the tournaments like well so what you played the game you're increasing your skills it's like there's always next time and one of the things that i've also been informing people about is the idea that life isn't a game it's a series of games and the right ethic is to be the winner of the series of games and part that means you have to learn how to be a good loser because you're not going to win every single game but you also have embrace those losses as learning experiences and the people that never lost afraid of losing their afraid of learning you're afraid of that fee the tearable feeling that you get from losing is so beneficial it say
give me in so many ways like it's one of the reasons is also one of the reasons why i talk so openly about bombing on stage and i do it other comedians are you i will always want to tell people yeah i'm honest stab lish comedian i've been a comedian for a long time let me tell you bout like when i was two years in or five years in or or four years ago it can we tell you about some horrible moments on stage where it went wrong so you understand like those things took me to another place because i realized i don't want to ever feel that feeling again and so i wrapped everything up and then i went back to work and i went over my notebooks and i went over my my recordings i figured out what i was doing wrong and and i tried to improve upon it but if it wasn't for that horrible sick feeling the same family you get when you get tapped out in jujitsu class same feeling you get when you use a martial arts tournament or anything else losing is important well you might also say like let's say that you could pick you can pick your level of competition in life to some degree ok so let's say you pick a level of competition where you're always winning it's like well
that means is you picked the wrong level of competition because you know like let's say your ran master chess player and you're all you do is play armatures and every night you go home and congratulate yourself and what a genius you are because you just stop these people left right and center it's like not a genius your dim witt right what you should be doing playing people who are beating you like well as much you can tolerate so maybe that's forty percent of the time maybe sixty percent of the time but that way cuz to be a winner you want to be different do you want to know what you're doing and then you want to be on the edge where your skills being developed and if you're going to the edge where your skills are going to be developed you run a place where where los we're losing is always a possibility because otherwise you're not pushing yourself beyond your current capacity and so one of the that i've outlined in twelve rules for life is a theory of meaning because as far as i'm concerned that sense of meaningful engagement is the antidote to malevolence and suffering essentially
'cause you want to have a life that so engaging that you think despite the fact that i'm limited and they were mortal and that life is tragedy and there's evil in the world despite all that this is worth doing and i think that that there's there's a there's a technical meaning that that genuinely exists and that's the meaning that you get when you're in domain where you have some discipline and some skill so you're laying out your competence and your your ability but you simultaneously pushing yourself to develop past where you are that's really engrossing and what's that doing that is doing is expanding your competence and so life is suffering and betrayal in in many senses of the word but you can adopt way of traversing through life that is more power shuffle than the tragedy in the malevolence i agree and i say too many people that what
is going on in your life is you have a series of human reward systems that are in your body and coded in your body in your genetics and the reason why human being survive the twenty eighteen in to be happy you have to feed those things you have to feed all of them you have to feed the one that one is to overcome difficult tasks you have to the one that wants to solve problems you have to feed the one that wants to be a loving tribe of people that you care about you have to feed the one that wants to procreate you feed all of these things you have to feed the love you have to feed the competition you have to feed the discipline and that to me is the only way to stay balanced or with me with my body and my mind as well i've i've been able to stay balanced and either more any of those things get out of wack get out of what yeah well so so part of that is so imagine this so imagine that you're this loose collect and of all these things that need to be gratified that need to be fed it's perfectly reasonable way of looking at it biologically ok so now you have to
conjure up a motive being that's at justifies all those necessities simultaneously but then this is a technical expert which is why the postmodernist insistence that there's an infinite number of explanations turns out to be wrong i need an infinite number of interpretations there's a very finite number of viable interpretations so the first can paint is what exactly what you just said you have these inner demons let's say all of which need to be satisfied not only do they need to be satisfied today but they need to be so this fight today in a way that doesn't interfere with satisfying them next week next month next year and in a decade so 'cause there's no point in you betraying your your fee put yourself to gratify your present self to stupid game ok so you're constrained by the necessity of sad just fighting yourself but of maintaining that satisfaction across time but then it gets even worse it's hard enough but
like there's an infinite number of use extending indefinitely into the future and all of them have to be satisfied simultaneously but then it's first because it isn't just you you have to figure out how ratify all those internal demons in a sustainable way in a way that uh people not only don't object to but probably help you with and it benefits them at the same time well then you think you think well there start that many ways of solving that problem and we know some of them one of them is reciprocity you know like if you go out of your way for me it's incumbent on me to notice that and do it camped in some manner to to repay you and like if we're good friends that's what we'll do if we're good brothers that's what we'll do that's what you do with your wife it's a reciprocal arrangement and that keeps things flow being properly across time this is the answer to the post modern conundrums like well is life meaningless is everything just now nihilus
is is nihilism the right answer or maybe you know the what would you call information with an ideology as a counter position to nihilism so nihilism is wrong life is meaningful for twelve rules for life is about the first meaning of life is suffering and malevolence is indisputable realities okay well what's whatsapp after well there's a noble way of being that allows you to exist properly despite that and also not to make it worse so can you life be meaningful enough so that you what is it confront chaos voluntarily establishing revivify order constrain malevolence that's a good three part doctrine for life things to do and so that's what i've been talking to the this is that i've been seeing over the last year it's like get your act together stand up forthrightly that's true we want stand up straight with your shoulders back there's a vote
the position right because you're old but it's a powerful position because it means that you're brave enough to take what's coming and isn't like what's coming isn't dangerous it's dangerous so but your best bet is to be dancing on your feet ready for to pay attention to be awake and to treat yourself property that's cool tools figure out how to treat yourself as if you're someone worth coming to the aid of to detach your often a bit and say ok i'm going to set up my life so that it it's good for me and good for other people as well as that's a corollary to that so the book is all about all about the meanings of life the negative meanings suffering malevolence those are indisputable realities and then a mode of being that integrates the sorts of things that you were talking about these underlying needs with everyone else is and like doing that voluntarily it's a call to responsibility and meaning and i actually think it's not the thing that's been so exciting for me for the last three decades looking
to these things is that i believe that there is a genuine human ethic it's not arbitrary has to do with reciprocity for example has to do with honesty that's another thing is that speak the truth turns out better if you speak the truth and so does everyone else so in this biblical lecture series i did i looked at the first chapter in genesis and there's a theory in there it's really interesting theory and the theory is that there's three parts to being there's chaos and potential that would be like the potential you should live up too 'cause everyone says well you should live up to your potential it's like what the hell is that you can't measure it or touch it taste it feel it it's this hypoth typical thing that everyone regards israel it's like it's like the future what's the future not here yet you can't measure it what makes you think it's real well act as if it's real and that seems to work there so there's pote
so that's one that's chaos chaotic potential then there's order and that's structure that you need in order to to confront the chaos and you be born with that biologically and then there's your ability to call forth from the potential new order that's what you do with your speech and that's what that's what happens in the first chapter of genesis is that god uses god order let's say uses the power of truthful speech that's the logos to transform potential into order and that's what people are may in the image of so there's this theory it's a lovely theory that's laid out right at the beginning of the bible that says that if you tell the truth you trans form the potential of being into a habitable actuality that's how it works ok well how do you how do you make the world better tell the truth 'cause the
world you bring into being as a consequence of telling the truth will be a good world and i believe that's true i think its true metaphorically i think its true theologically and i think it's true at the practical and scientific level as well i think it's true and all those levels simultaneously so that's been ridiculously exciting to to sort through i think this notion and one of the things that you said that i think really resonates is that there's not a voice out there that is possibility and that is talking about how important this is and i think this is an inherent principle that most people are kind of aware of and it feels good to them to hear like it resonates so you feel it when you when you're saying this clean your room you know put your house in order people like yeah yeah how come i'm not hearing them right back i'm i'm not hearing this well it's so funny because one of the things psychologists have done for the last twenty years specially the soul
psychologist is pushed this idea of self esteem you should feel good about yourself now i think why would you tell someone twenty that like you should good about who you are it's like no you shouldn't why should you feel good about who you are like you should good about who you could be that's way better 'cause he got sixty years to turn into who you could wait a minute are you what your accomplishments are or are you dis individual going through this journey i think there's anything wrong with feeling good about who you are as long as it's tempered by an understanding of potential and what you have accomplished versus what you can competent well i think that having confidence is a big part of it is it is and i'm not saying that people shouldn't have confidence but like often you take young people say there are sixteen to twenty two and they're not really feel not good about who they are right because their life is chaotic in in disorder and they don't know where they're going and that they don't know which way is up because of the could be bad parenting absolutely and we have to be a lot of abuse going on and i
it's one of the reasons why people that resonates with people this idea of be happy for you about who you are right feel good about who you right but but the thing is it it has to be stated with precision it's like yes it's like you should you should treat yourself as if your valuable especially in potential but you should and trade on who you should become especially if you're young and so let's say you're miserable and nihilistic and chaotic and depressed and all of that now you have your reasons you know terrible parenting abuse all of those things it's like well you should feel good about yourself it's like no no it's not it's not it's not the right message is that it's more like you should understand how much potential there is within you to set that straight and then you should do everything you can to manifest that in the world and it will set it straight and that's better than self esteem it's like your krooked horrible position ok fine there's a lot of suffering in pain associated with that yeah you can't just feel good about because it's not good but you can do something
but you can genuinely do something about it and i think all the evidence suggests that that's the case yes so i'm telling young people look there's no matter how had your situation is i'm not going to pretend it's okay it's not okay it's tragic and some people really get hurt by malevolent people like you know terribly sometimes they never recover it's really awful but more to you than you think and if you stand up and face it with with the positive with with a noble vision with discipline and intent you can go far farther to overcoming it then you could imagine and that's the principle on which you should predicate your behavior and i think that one things that's really nice about being a clinical psychologist is that this isn't just guesswork like one of the things we so two things in clinical psychology one is conversations redeem people the clinical psychologist have a truthful conversation
the conversation is wrong with my life because that you know maybe takes a year to have that conversation and both of the parties they're doing everything they can to lay it out properly here's how it might be fixed here's what a beneficial future might look like and so it's a completely honest conversation if it's working well and all the happening in the conversation is that the two people involved are trying to make things better that's the goal let's see if we can have a conversation that will make things better ok so we know that works it does make things better and then and uh everything we know is that well let's say there's a bunch of things that you're afraid of that are in your way some vision about who you want to be maybe you have to you know you to be successful in your career so you have to learn to talk in front of a group it's like ok well you're afraid of that no wonder you don't want to be humiliated so ok so what do we do about that well may we first get you to speak in front of one person and then three people you know for five minutes and then for ten minutes like graduate
exposure to what you're afraid of voluntary graduated exposure to what you're afraid of is curatives and that's true it works the documentation is in its how people learned so so to to to tell people that if you confront the world forthrightly you speak the truth and you expose yourself courageously to those things that you're afraid of that your life a limp proven so will the life of people around you like as far as i'm concerned that's as close to undeniable fact as we go as we've got and it also ducktales nicely with the underlined archetypal stories that heroic stories it's like go out there find the dragon confronted is dragon it might eat you it's dangerous but it's worth just to cower at home and wait for it to come and devour you go out there confront it get the gold share it with the community it's like yeah it's the oldest story
mankind i think one of the factors in the resistance of these ideas of discipline and of taking responsibility for yourself and of a lot of the things that you've been saying in regards to all the things that we discussed earlier is people recog and if they're not doing that in their own lives and they get upset and instead of looking internally they tried to attack the thing that's upsetting them they did attack your message may attack the philosophy by find it rather than look internally and objectively and having sort of introspective point of view where you go okay i reacting to this because this is resonates like i'm missing this aspect of my life it is this guy does does this diminish me or is this guy running something out that i can benefit from very few people are willing to do that very few people are willing to take that critical moment too
you look at their own behavior and look at their own thought process and wonder if the actual adverse reaction they have to this person's message is because they know that they're wrong yeah what's so what's it's a couple of reasons for that one is well you think that your someone we should listen to right so i care enough you know so you got to be poked a bunch to see if that's true and then the next thing is well it's it's pain info to understand how much of what you're doing isn't productive so i'll give an example so just a couple of times with classrooms full of students usually when i'm lecturing about career development say ok how much time do you waste so that i could get the class to vote how many of you waste ten hours a day it's like ten percent of the kids are put up their hands and it's interesting 'cause i don't define what constitutes waste i just ask the question so there
diagnosing themselves right i'm not saying you're wasting ten hours a day i'm just asking is like given your own attitude how much time you're wasting ten hours a day it's like ten percent of the people put up their hand well when you get to like six hours a day eighty percent of the people put up their hands so then we do the arithmetic it's like because i like doing arithmetic with people people hate arithmetic but i like doing it it's like ok six hours a day two hours a week so let's call that a work week forty hours a week so so that's that's that work week let's say what's your time worth your university student or certainly worth minimum wage 'cause obviously but it's it's way more than that because if you spend a productive out when you're twenty then you in the benefits of that hour for the rest of your life so there's the com pounding effect of time spent when we're young so i say let's assume your time is worth fifty dollars an hour we i think is an underestimate but whatever let's call it fifty we call twenty five but we'll call it fifty thanks to the dollars a week you're wasting one hundred
one a year how much better would a year maybe if you weren't wasting one hundred thousand dollars a year four million dollars it's like you're rich you don't even know it by your own definition it's like people shake their heads like i never thought about it that way it's like yeah think about it that way don't waste your damn life and then i think well why would people be resistant to that message it's like well you really want pick up and figure out that your way wasting half your life and you know people do that kind of wasting i really hate it you know and i've had lots of people come to my clinical practice who were chronic pro estimators you know and so there watching youtube videos say but not ones that are good for them although sometimes they will do yeah but just browsing and that kind of mindless way that you do when you're not paying attention and you're trying to kill time and people doing that they feel bad they get depressed they
you're anxious they can't get away from it they feel kind of quasi addicted or they do saying about social media now so huge issue with young kids absolutely but there's this feeling of kind of eternal rotten corruption that goes along with it's like yeah well you're wasting your life like so it's painful it's painful to recognize that then it's painful to think oh god look how undisciplined i am i don't know anything it uses schedule i can't i can't stick to a calendar i don't have any aims i don't know anything about the world right and maybe there's a part of me that's bitter because i haven't got everything already and i'd like just like to say to hell with it that's the record of the union shadow like that's what makes you vicious and and and and untrustworthy all of that no one to look at that and no bloody wonder hey the alternative is worse so the problem is you sent like just saying stop wasting your life like i think that that's not enough i think
this is one of the reasons why i look like this is so important like the idea of discipline and most people's eyes is like if you're not a disciplined person it's double it's it's gonna be painful it's it's a for a frustratingly you you you have to force yourself into these things it's a muscle to and it's a muscle that has to be developed in these patterns have to be developed in your own mind permanently yes yeah well with so you're right telling people not to waste their lives is not enough and this is another reason why so much enjoyed being a clinical psychologist because clinical psychologists don't stick with high level abstractions especially the behaviors that are really practical it's like ok you want to get your act together it's like well how 'bout if let's say you're not studying what it well and so we do a real analysis of how much you study say when i go to the library for hours a day it's like yeah yeah okay how much time you actually study in the library well no i waste time i have to try
well there i look at my phone it's like ok well how much fifteen minutes have an hour how much is real studying well maybe we figure out it's fifteen minutes so okay so what going to do for one week is you're going to ready for half an hour that's all you don't get to go to the library for four hours you have to shut down will figure out a time one thousand o'clock in the morning whatever we put in your schedule try to stay for half an hour no more and then just come back and let have a conversation about how well that worked and people back and they say well you know i managed it four days and one day i went over and one day i and do it at all it's like ok that's better instead of seventy five min this of studying you know fifteen minutes pay for seven days what is that one thousand five hundred and seventy one one hundred and five minutes managed about two hundred and ten minutes so you've already produced an improvement of fifty percent in your bumble in horrible way he got a fifty percent improvement in one week it's like that's deadly it's like so in the future authoring program
people to do is think about your life along six dimensions what you want for dimensions so the goal is this going to take care of yourself hyphen three years that justifies its suffering that's the goal so you can print the damn life but you have to think what you would be satisfied with so you wouldn't be all bitter and resentful it's like okay what do you want from your family what do you want from your friend's party and educate yourself do you want for your career how are you going to use your time outside of work how are you going to handle drugs and alcohol and other temptations like that how are you going to keep yourself mentally and physically healthy and these are open questions like you get to answer them the idea is you and whatever you want plastic and you have to figure out what it is okay so now develop a vision what's your life going to be like in three to five years so you write down then we do else which is okay and habits in your resentment in your bitterness in all of that your procrastination gets completely out of hand and you auger down
and your in your own personal version of hell in three to five years does that look like everyone else that slick everyone can look into the future and think well if i keep going on this dark path this is where i'll end up well then you got little download line for yourself to run away from you got a little have an outline for yourself to run towards and then you're motivated because some times you know you're just hopeful i would like a good thing to happen it's like yeah but you know i'd like to drink half boil a whiskey tonight too like so which is it going to be well just being hopeful about future might not be enough but then you think all i see like there's that little call thing that i outlined this waiting for me and maybe i'm afraid of in the next next step forward 'cause it's demanding and challenging it's like yeah i'm afraid that but i'm way more afraid of where i might end up if i don't get my act together and people should be that's why their conceptions of helen so many religions it's like hell is a real place that's a whole different question whether its weight
sing for you in the afterlife that's a whole different question but if you've never met anyone in hell you haven't live very long you have had your eyes open yeah it's undeniable that feeling of toll complete misery undeniable yeah especially when it's compounded by the fact you know you did it to yourself that's the real fun that's the real fun part it's like i'm having a bitch of a time and i richly deserve it jesus that's roughness is another concept that is doesn't have a voice right now this is another i mean this is a giant part of being human being instead of identity ticks and right versus left i think these right versus left battles often times what they are is a simply the battleground for the conflicts in your own mind better to have the conflict in yourself that's another thing i really learned well not not only from the new testament but a fair bit from that you know the idea is that well there's evil in the world of all sorts and some
if it's teveel in other people more it's the evil in your brother's heart but the part of it you can really do something about that's the malevolence in your own heart you can we do something about that and now it's actually way more useful than you think so because if you can face it in you then you start to understand it and that also makes you strong enough to identify it and to fight it when you see it in the external world plus you don't do any harm so like like there's lots of p all over the world going out and doing reprehensible things and you might say well you should go out and protest against them like that sometimes you should but and the time you should think where am i falling short of the ideal my own ideal dozen have to be one that someone puts on you where am i less than i should be where am i bitter where am i making the world a worse place than it has to be you yourself those questions will be in for a big shock say well what would happen if you stop doing that that's what twelve rules for life is about it's like stop saying things that make you weak stop telling lies
that you know to be lies start doing things you know to be useless and counterproductive aim high dog some responsibility and then see what the hell happens people will do will do people do that too and i think in the if more people live their life in this sort of a matter i think we're gonna have a less differences in terms of our ideologies and more of an understanding that people have different ways of looking at things in different ways of living and this this combat between people this this internal strife that manifest itself this combat between ideologies i think you are much more inclined to let other people live their lives if you're living your life in a satisfactory manner that that's exactly it that's a good that i have a chapter in their own raising kit says don't like your kids don't let your just do anything that makes you just like them
on the observation deck you're quite a monster and it would be better for your kids if they didn't get on your bad side and like i again because i'm clinical psychology saying monster why do use that term because i've watched families like i've seen families where it's as if every single person in the family has their hands around the neck of the fam remember that's close to them and their squeezing but only titan to strangle him in twenty years but you're not always used as a pejorative you you you've also used a you should become a monster you should be a monster yeah but that's that's you shouldn't be it it shouldn't be accidental that's the thing so what do you mean by monster then in a positive sense like you should be a monster oh that's easy positive monsters somebody who says no and means it 'cause when you say know what you mean is there isn't any and you can do to me that will make me agree to do this why is that a monster because you have to be because no one take you seriously otherwise seriously like no means if you keep push
getting there something that you do not like will happen to you that but no means you don't have any strength of character unless you can put up a fight i want to be able to say no to something is to be able to put up a fight can't do that if you're if you can be pushed around you get argued into submission or you'll feel guilty because you're causing conflict or something like that but is there confusion using those terms is a positive as a and a negative maybe is another word sort of monster well there is the reason the potential there is the potential for confusion you say well is that something that can be 'cause i think monster is a horrible thing i don't think of it as being like a wall like someone who is just rock solid in their belief system and rock solid and there are understand when you when you fight someone whose formidable say what do you think of the per that you're fighting like how would you characterize them they may have a monster side because they can bring physical
substantial physical force to bear on the situation and and be willing to do it so not naive and and harm us by any stretch of the imagination right they have a well developed capacity for may him they think well is that more and it's like well i would say yes i would say fears fierce fine let's go with that yeah 'cause someone whose fierce informed it's not necessarily a monster you know i think of a monster is being in just an awful person who's done awful things and just you know ok well so fair fair enough well so back to the back to the situation with your kids while you definite i don't want to have your kids act in a way that awakens your inner monster right let's put it that way and so you need to you need to organize your family with a certain amount of discipline in a certain amount of structure so that you get to do what you want which is back to back to the point that you made earlier so that your
happy to have your kids around so that you won't take revenge on them and so you want to lay your life out so that so that it's providing you what you need to not be bitter and to work for your best tristan for the interests of everyone else that would be lovely and i think it's attainable you know because the book is very dark and i'm a very dark guy in some ways because i've looked at the terrible things that people do to that's the fascinating way of looking at you think yourself as dark as i don't i don't think of you as dark that's good you seem very friendly guy i think you're very serious and especially about these very complicated issues and i think that that's one of the reasons why you have made this gigantic wave in online discourse and people discussing these very tumultuous times we live in is 'cause you're a guy that did extr calculate your guided look at that see sixteen bill and look
marxism and go do you know where this is headed and you were the guy that had the courage to say murderous and people like what the fuck is he talking about that doesn't make any sense and you how to spell it out and explain it and when you do you realize why this is so significant to you yeah well the try ableism issue that you were discussing earlier doesn't seem to be all that what would you say debatable that if we degenerate into tribalism the probability of bloodshed becomes vastly enhanced it's like well that always happens when people would evolve into tribalism so and i'm pointing to a particular kind of tribalism i guess the darkness is that you know i'm very aware of the terrible things that people not only are likely to do to each other but do do to each other all the time i mean what about forty sent for divorce rate right but you have to go he needs to go through a fairly fair bit of ugly just to get to divorce ideas are nicer than americans maybe you guys are forty percent maybe maybe
i think it's really simple be present yeah i mean i think i think it actually it's fifty percent here somewhere but yeah yeah you have to go through a lot that's really ugly to you know chris rock how to joke about that he's like fifty just kind of people get divorced he goes he goes but that's the people who had the courage to leave it was how many cowards just stay and suffer and meanwhile i wound up getting divorced a few years later right horrible divorce so yeah true story yeah yeah yeah but it's a good point yeah i think we need more people who are actualized human beings more people who understand themselves more people have gone through adversity both
in real life and personal in terms of their understanding of their own growth of their own potential and their own understanding of how they've managed their life their mind there actions and the or we have people that have personal sovereignty the better will be able to have these conversations well that be the hope you know one of the things i've been suggesting to people is that they picked something difficult to do rid this is funny little paragraph by kierkegaard it was written about one thousand eight hundred and forty and he was thinking about his role as a student and writer and he was a student and writer forever you know he never really had a career apart from that and he said that he wasn't one of these people who was capable of inventing something wonderful to make life easier for everyone like so many people were doing you know during the industrial revolution he said well maybe i'm one of the people whose benefit to
sorry will be that i will make things more difficult for everyone because there will come a time when what people want not they don't want ease they difficulty instead and i think well that is what people want that is what they were you think well i want an easy happy life it's like no actually that isn't where you want if you want to pull one does things that are difficult that they can overcome yeah right that's right they want an optimal challenge well a whole different thing when you overcome something when you do something difficult whether it's i mean i've never written a book but i assume when you write a book when you're done writing that book is a great feeling of accomplishment 'cause it's very difficult to do that feeling of a it's like when i put together a comedy special or when i just anything that's difficult there's a feeling like i did it i did it yeah one of the mysteries is why that feeling exists you know it's a jet anyone it's not a trivial thing that it's to say i did so being difficult and that was worthwhile basically
what you're saying to yourself is well there was a lot of suffering attendant on that along with the just general suffering of life but it turned out that was worth it that's what you want is like you i want that sense that you're in aged something that's worth it and i say say like i i try to not to the casual optimist about these sorts of things mean one of the things i do in twelve rules for life is layout the rationale that drives people like the columbine high school killers 'cause i uh understand that rationale i've studied it for uh i know why they did what they did and they have a power full argument but it's wrong but you don't there's no sense in showing how it's wrong before showing that it's a powerful argument like light life is suffering there is lots of malevolence it's no wonder that people want to bring being itself to a halt they want to take revenge on it's not surprising going about it the right way is it the sorts of things that you were just observing is you take on a difficult task that push as you pass where you are already and you
you succeed in it and you get this sense that yes that was worthwhile it's like that's why you want you want to live in that place where things are worthwhile that's paradise on earth that's what that is and it isn't some happy little place where you know someone is feeding you peeled grapes that isn't what it is it's more like more like victory on the honorable battlefield or something like that people have of ultimate success and ultimate happiness is it seems motivated by what they don't have wrath within an understanding of what success and happiness really is there the idea is that one day i'm going to go and i'm going to be in my golden years and i'm just going to be able to sit around and do nothing until everybody to fuck off you will be happy at all yeah i talked to one of the people that i was working with who had like a vision for retirement i said well what's your vision for retirement well i see myself in the beach you know some tropical country drinking margaritas and i thought first that's not plan
to travel posters like ok let's let's walk through this alright so you go down this tropical country and you go sit on the beach and i have a margarita it's like ok well how many margaritas like ten ok this is going to do that we're going to do that for six months you'll be dead yeah well you'll be this like pathetic sunburned like fat yeah unhappy hungover surviving yeah yeah it's like that's your major rated so how long can you have a margarita on a beach like maybe you can do that once every six months for like ten minutes something like that it's not a vision true but when you are working and slaving away you think about that beach with your feet up and the way comes over would you like another margarita mister peter so yeah yes i will absolutely and i got right exactly but it's it's like the sixteen year old fantasy of you heard us is like well and it just doesn't work out so yeah and and the thing that the thing is is that the thing that's
the stains people through life really is the lift of a worthwhile burden it's something like that but it's part 'cause we're social animals right it's like we're evolved to be useful to the people around us because they're much more likely to let us live if we're like that so it's been fun fund talking too especially talking to young men about this is like the other thing too is i think the world the world is full of darkness let's say and we could say each of us have a little bit of light and if we released that lie if we let it shine properly christ it's too cliched to go one with in some sense but the world is a lesser place if you do reveal from within yourself what you have to reveal and the fat that the world is a lesser place actually turns out not to be trivial like if you i want everything you could be more people will die more people will suffer more evil will be unconstrained more tyranny will rain more chaos
it will remain chaotic and dangerous all of that do you mean this by this in the sense of like the old proverb of the wings of a butterfly fluttering become a hurricane something similar to that but it can even be more local it's like your family is more messed up than it could be if you were less messed up then you are right so if you just got your act together like ten percent more your family would be one percent better right it's like well do it and that would re often dental people today in your s yes interact yes and and what it ripples fast yes that's the other thing that's so cool is that like people think well the seven billion of us and each of this is just this separate test mode like floating in the cosmos and what the hell difference does it make what you do anyways so that is not how we're connected so like you center of a network and you know well you know way more people than this but let's say typically you know one thousand people in your life well i have to have an impact on them and
those one thousand people is going to one thousand people so you're one step from a million and two steps from a billion and we are network technically that that's how human interactions work and so when you do something that you shouldn't do it's worse than you think when you do something that you should do it's better than you think and so you think well this is why i've been to people will clean up your room it's like well your room is actually network too it's not that easy to clean up your room to set it but you want your room to be set up so that when you walk in there it tells you to be better than you generally are it's organized it's got direction every things in its place you try to do the chaotic household because i had students do these sorts of things assignments i'd say look make a small moral goal clean up your room and just right down what happens as a consequence so maybe these are students in a chaotic household the whole place is a bloody mass no it's taking in a responsibility for anything and so they decide they're going to start to clean up their room
and then the people in the household notice well the first thing they do is pissed off it's like who do you think you are like you think you're better than us like why do you think this is worthwhile who made who guide made you god all of that so just by trying to organize this little part of their life they immediately run into the people whose actions there casting in a dim light by trying to improve themselves to some degree they might have to have like a thorough the war in their household to be allowed to do something as simple as keep the room orderly they find out very rapidly that hey that's way more difficult than it sounds and be that the consequences of it are far more far reaching than people think so that's quite fun maybe part of it is is that everything around you is full of potential everything maybe more potential than you could ever possibly utile eyes and maybe all you have is this little rat hole of a room in some rundown place in the world it's like fix it up
there's more there than you think see what happens if you fix it up and you'll fix yourself simultaneously 'cause because you have to get disciplined in order to fix up the room many have a fixed broom and you'll be a more fixed up person it's like you think that nothing will happen the consequences that it's like all hell break loose as a consequence of that try it is worth trying and it's a concept that seems alien to people but if you think about it it makes sense well people don't take what they have right in front of them seriously enough it's like the wasting time thing they don't do the arithmetic you know and they also don't understand they devalue what they have right in front of them like another another client i worked with was having a hard time put in his kid to bed at night and so we did the arithmetic it's like well i'm fighting with my kid for four five minutes a night trying to get him to go to bed ok so let let's analyze that alright so what does that mean what means that both you the day upset that's not so good if why would you want that
it means that you're spending forty five minutes fighting when you could spend twenty minutes doing something was it like reading to him say means that you don't get to spend that time with your wife so she's not very happy with you plus you're annoyed because you don't see her plus you blame it on the kid because he's the proximal cause like that's pretty damn ugly and then and then let's do the rest it's like seven days a week forty five minutes a day let's call at five hours twenty hours a week two hundred four the hours in a year at six you're spending a month and a half of work weeks fighting with your four year old son think you're going to like him you don't like anyone you spend a month and a half a year fighting with it's a bad idea fix it get important to bed make it peaceful you do like these things that repeat every single day that's a motif in this book to your life is a margaritas on a beach in in jamaica that happens now and then those are exceptions your life is how your wife
greet you at the door when you come home every day your life is how you treat each other over the breakfast table that's an hour and a half for an hour every single day you get those mundane things right those things you do everyday if concentrated on them and you make them pristine it's like you got eighty percent of your life put together these little things that are right in front of us they're not little that's the first thing they are not little and they're hard to set right and if you set the right it has a rippling effect and fast to way faster than people think i want to talk about the rippling effect 'cause i know you gotta get outta here at one but i want to talk about the rippling effect that you who have had on people and how that makes you feel i mean you were relatively unknown a year and a half two years ago and now you have become lack of a better term you're an online celebrity and your
each is fantastic now this thing that you were talking about about how your impact can affect the people around you in a knot versus a not insignificant way a very significant way what does i've been like for you and what is that adjustment then like i said i haven't adjusted to it how old are you fifty five so for fifty three years you're relatively anonymous other outside of university yeah yeah i had a little bit of a little bit of it closure i did some work with the public television station you know i had my little flashes of the appearance is that compared to this just crazy what done on the show mean millions yeah one million people have listened and watched each each sink each individual episode yeah there about two million views each and then that's nothing compared to the youtube youtube is nothing compared to the audio yeah so the audio is like five times
or something yeah so that's yeah it's completely crazy i know i haven't adjusted to it so i mean have you adjusted to your status i'm numb yeah so what so what so what's it like when you think about it you wake up in the morning you think ok i'm i'm going a billion downloads this you don't think that i think i'm going to talk to jordan peterson when i want to talk to you about that's how i handle it exactly the same thing for the last fifteen months this is what i've got up in the morning i've looked at the twenty five things i have to do in a mad rush before seven hundred o'clock at night i think i'm going to go through them and i'm going to concentrate on them do the job i can then at seven o'clock and i'm going to have a rest i'm going to take a look at what i have to do tomorrow and i'm going to do the same thing that's what i've been doing and then when i stand back a little bit like when it's sort of dawns on me you know then it's disconcerting surreal i can't figure it out i can't understand it
but then i but there's no sense dwelling on that because first of all i don't know how to conceptualize i don't know why it's happening exactly like i think what's happened is that i said it there was something i wouldn't do with regards to this legislation and i meant i actually i wasn't going to use those words under legal compulsion period no matter what and actually meant that so there was that but then i think the more relevant i've been studying these old stories these archetypal stories for very long of time and they have power they really have power and they manage ask themselves everywhere they manifest themselves in movies and books and i mean he reporters of mythological story and it made roland rich the queen of england you know these stories have power and i was fortunate enough to study a large number of people large
number of scholars who knew what that power was carl jung in particular and i could make it more accessible to people and so that's a big part of it but what overall significance of that is but it just leaves me speech plus i mean this kathy newman things a good example and i mean so many things have happened i've got involved i've been in this scandal of some sort serious scandal of some sort probably every three weeks for a year and a half there are things that are just well the james damore thing is a good example of that like that's a big deal you know that that explosion that emerged row him in the court case that's coming out of it it's a big deal and this thing with lindsey shepherd that was the worst scandal that ever hit a canadian university and then the result protests and and then the words what happened with channel four in the uk and it's like i don't know what to make of it i don't what
what i'm trying to do is good conversation when i come and talk to somebody like you where we can have a good conversation try not to say anything stupid that's really what i'm trying to do is to not say anything stupid stupid yeah well and it's high stakes poker yeah you know for it's not quite so bad now because especially after what happened with channel four and some journalists like people have been trying to take me out for quite a long time and it's not it isn't working so for your hours you actually believe what you're saying it actually makes sense well that's the start it's not a bad start but it's rare in this world this is uh especially in these ideologically charged times this toxic tribalism that we keep bringing up it's when i also decided like a long time ago and i i think this runs through twelve rules for life is well i believe that people's decisions
tilt the world towards heaven or hell i think there's no more accurate way of describing the consequences of each of your decisions than that you face potential that's what you face the that's what you facing the world is potential it's not material reality its potential and every decision you make your decide whether you want to make the world better or worse and if you like the ultimate where is heaven and the ultimate worse is hell we know how make the world into hell we've done that multiple times much of the 20th century was that it's like i looked at all and i thought ok i would rather is that the world didn't degenerate into hell and i understand people want it to degenerate into hell they're angry they're angry because they suffer they suffer unfairly and they suffer because people hurt them and so i think this is a bad game i'm not going to help make it better i'm angry i'm to make it worse even that's what the columbine kids did
you know that's what all the mass shooters do they say to hell with this i hate it there is so far behind the game they just want to flip the table ever get worse than that they and they want to obliterate the game yes and and they want to do it with as much malice possible just to obtain revenge and i understand that but i did right along time ago that i would rather not play that game i think it i think that it's possible that we could make the world better i really believe believe that too so i think well so i'm i'm trying to tell people look there's more to you than you think there's more poten sure there's more than enough potential to go around there's definite suffering malevolence in the world we could fix it you haven't got anything better that's a very big point that there's more potential to go around more did more than people understand that we're not going to run out of potential were not this idea the famine thinking is one of the reasons why people get upset other people success they think somehow another this other person success take something away from them
that's the other thing too is that i've realized that people actually act like what they confront in the world is potential funny because whatever potential is it's not materially measurable but if you tell someone you're not living up to you potential they go yeah well i know that it's like well what is that potential that you're not living up to and then when you say well there's potential in front of you you know that you can walk out on the street new cool right or left or straight ahead like your face facing this thing that isn't fully formed and you get to decide how it's going to form and you can make it better and so mike question is like the world's a rough place there's no doubt about it it's a harsh place but my question is what would happen if we start making it worse how good could it be if we stop making it worse and i don't know if there's an upper limit to that like it might be maybe we could make it really really really good
nothing better to do than that so i came heaven start at home even tell the truth let's see what the hell happened you know like it it is the case clearly on facts of the matter in twenty years it wouldn't have to be a single person in the world that was hungry if we could get rid of the five biggest diseases that currently plague the planet we could straighten things up and god only knows what things could be like that or we could let the whole thing degenerate into hell so in each of us is making that decision with each decision that's the other thing that i've understood take a choice you want hell if you pick want just remember you knew what you were doing when you picked but nobody pick cell yeah just sort of let it slide yeah but they do it because they blind themselves you know you know
you do it say oh yeah well you know i let that slide and then you don't think about it it's like you could think about it you could think about it you could know but you don't let yourself now is any of this all all all the pressure in the scandal every three weeks is this is it away on you is it is it difficult how are you feeling when i was feeling strange thing yeah it's like it's like multani aslee the worst possible thing in the best possible thing that could happen well financially right yes it's yes as as in the old white yes i mean the thing that i've i shouldn't say this but i'm going to because it's just so god damn funny i can't help but say i figured out how to monetize social justice warriors so this is what it is i do it so funny it just can't believe it the other way it just every time i think that it's just one of the surreal circumstances that characterize my life it
like i'm driving the social justice activists in canada mad because get to speak and then more people support me on patreon like that's annoying it's like god damn capital steez make more money off this ideological warfare's like ok let's go protest so they go protest me then that goes up on youtube and then my page tacos way up so it's like do and so one of the things that keep a jersey here yet they keep accusing we have hauling in the loot and i think well look here's the situation guys i give away everything i do online for free it's free and people are giving me money they're just sending it to me i'm not twisting europe not even asking them for it well i guess that's not exact great cuz i set up the patron account but that's more complicated than it looks a lot of that was curiosity and i thought well i could increase the poor
quality of my online video slows also the potential of you being removed from the universe yes well that and that was your life and so yeah and yeah people wanted that yeah they haven't pop winding that's in october when the lindsay shepherd scandal broke and it would look so bad for the left wing ideologues like two hundred university of toronto community members signed a petition to get me fired again and i was i'm upset about that and this is what my life is been like it so my son over that day and i said jesus julian you know i'd like to hundred people at the faculty member at it in at the university of toronto petitioned the faculty association and then they sent in a petition to the administration to get me fired it was the faculty association that's my union they didn't even contact me and julian said to worry about yeah it was only two hundred people and i thought that's what my life is like it's like a day over two hundred people signed a petition to get me fired as a professor my
son can come in and say well that's not so bad it's like it's only two hundred pets how weird this scales yeah that's right it's so it's so surreal because you could say that online and look what happening and then the support would be overwhelming for who knows how many people what do you mean ultrasounds of that yeah absolutely well in the administration of the university of toronto like that they didn't take it seriously at all the cold have me removed it didn't cause any didn't even cause a ripple now who these two hundred people and what was their motivation oh well there to say what the motives were not very happy with the read the transcript or listen to those recordings yeah how could they possibly be against you based on that all because they think that the people who who who conducted the inquisition were right what i mean oh yes but it look look i mean i mean this formally like twenty members of pimlott san rambukkana's faculty that was
indications at wilfrid laurier wrote a letter supporting them that's why it's not an isolated incident it's like no no they thought that what they were doing was right it's mass the stereo while there is an element of that that's for sure and there's certainly again i hate to bring this term up again but this toxic tribalism thing this like they're they're supporting their own and they we understand that their own ideologies have been completely connected to the same type of group think that's going against lindsay shepherd in that meeting when they tried paint her as a radical right winger and which he certainly isn't course not neither you mean the whole thing is ridiculous you're not all right you're not a neo nazi you know i've read a lot of crazy things about you and knowing you personally seeing this stuff and like this is this is a fast anytime you later that's for sure that's for sure yeah and it's been well it's been crazily what would i say crazy stressful it's it's the best
describe it is surreal like it's like i step outside myself i can't i can't put this in a box i don't know what to make i don't know what to make of the channel for interview you know it's like what the hell really it's it's it's crazy well it's it's these conversations are so limited by what you were saying before that they're trying to get this five minutes sound bite in and that's what television has become its dying meat yeah it doesn't make any sense it doesn't make any sense to sandwich these commercials in every fifteen minutes or whatever they do not have it makes any sense it's an archaic way of communicating ideas yeah well i think that is part of it too is that like i happened to catch a technologic wave well like you did you know i mean there vision offers nothing over youtube nothing
you can do to welcome to my tv yeah well exactly and there's no space requirements on youtube so you don't have to do this twist the comp this event into a short sound bite and entertain everyone right and it turns out to the there's this huge audience online for actual content like just genuine conversation 'cause like one of the things that's how open between you and i when when i've come down here we've actually had conversation right we're trying to figure things out we got our viewpoints and everything but we're basically road lightness and there's a chapter in twelve rules for life called assume that the person you're talking to might know something you don't which is like the form for a good conversation it's like there's a things i don't understand about the world i mean that that's a big book things i don't understand about the world right that's a very thick book i can come in here and talk to you about what's going on and hopefully we both emerge with better understanding we're not the same people that we were when we walked in and that's a good thing and then
we have those conversations online and people can participate in that trying to do that my lectures to like what i did this biblical series that was another thing that was so strange joe is like imagine i walk into a like a venture capitalist station i said look i want you guys to bankroll me i'm going to do fifty lectures on the old testament and i'm going to try to attract young men i'm going to rent a theater like they just laugh me out of there she can you imagine anything less saleable than that did that went ahead with it i rented to theater and then i walked through these stories and i was learning a lot because like i knew first stories in genesis up to the flood i knew them pretty well i kind of understood what they meant but then all the queries from abraham onward i had read them but i hadn't done in deep failed in depth analysis and so i was learning a tremendous amount walking through those stories and they had a big had a big impact man and so i'm going to do
this soon 'cause i want to do that but it's just another sample of how surreal things have become but also the the utility of a good conversation because like when i'm up on on podium say lecturing i'm not exactly lecture i'm trying to figure something note and sharing that process with the audience which is so different than what is going on in universities that is freaking everybody out what's going on is this indoctrination into this group thing yeah it's like he here's what's right memorize it it's like my pictures are more like well i don't know what's right like here's some things i know and they seem to be working and here's how i use those tools to dig this story and here's what it might mean and this is what i got from it and and hear some universal truths about human beings that seem to be and then i tried explore that's like well should we believe this should we like that when abraham in the abrahamic story sample mean abrahamsson old guy and he's basically lived in his mom's basement that's that's really the beginning of the story he gets a call to advise
i'm sure you know god says will get get get away premier family in your kin get out there in the world is the call to adventure think ok i find that's a heroic motif but their name same goes out in the first thing he encounters is like tyranny and starvation and then a bunch of guys want to steal his wife so it's been in pertaining to take those stories apart and to see why their foundational 'cause they are foundational and they're not near ignorance whatever they are ignorant soup petition is not the right category howie please change your classrooms going back teaching since all of this hit 'cause when did you start teaching well i guess that's not true that's not true i i taught from january to may of of two thousand and sixteen well the first way is it changed it that i was like so so shell shocked when i went to to teach last january
and i was really sick like i've been really sick this year had last january cheeses it was just dismal i wouldn't wish that were wish that on my worst enemy i had three weeks where i didn't sleep a wink try that that's really entertain one long day of misery that's three weeks long what kind of a an illness it looks like an autoimmune disorder do you think is because of stress you know i don't you don't you don't act at all well yeah i think it it probably made it worse but no something that i battle with for a long time and it's something that really my wife and i have autoimmune illness and my daughter got what autoimmune ohms don't know exactly what it is i don't what it is in my daughter it manifest yes that's what's fixed fixed it all i eat is meat and no no vegetables no carbohydrates sit in that's it
that seems to have fixed it yeah this is so many well i can tell if you hadn't listened out of pocket sized yeah yeah yeah yeah well i've been following them because my daughter has a blog to call don't eat that and my daughter has tera tera ballade immune disorder it was awful i detailed that out in chapter twelve she had thirty eight affected joints and she had her hip enter ankle replaced when she was sixteen cheese and so she walked around on two broken legs for a year and in excruciating pain she was an extreme my high doses of opiates and so she was addicted to opiates which she like she just once she had her surgery she just went off them cold turkey and like suffered through the withdrawal for two months compared to what she been through that was nothing like what she went the menu it was dreadful and that was just the surface but that was only the beginning of a real nice she had all sorts of other things that were worse than that and so we've figured she was probably going die by the time she was thirty 'cause my cousin's daughter
had a similar autoimmune problem she died when she was thirty so is bloody dreadful but she figured out at one point that it was associated with diet and then she went on a radically restricted diet and she christ she she was on antidepressants she's not she had take ritalin to stay away she could only stay awake about six hours a day and she had take high doses of ritalin distilling she what is this autoimmune disease while she had her diagnosis was rheumatoid arthritis right but she didn't have the blood markers for it but she had all the other symptoms anyway she she figured out this room strict diet she only ate chicken and broccoli for about two months and almost all symptoms went away and she's pretty much symptom free now and which is a complete miracle and she convinced me to try this diet a year and a half ago and so i lost seven pounds a month for seven months that was the first thing which was just buddy amazing yeah it was unbelievable was until i couldn't believe it
and what was your diet rich and refined carbohydrates before that rich enough yeah rich enough you know pasta is in bread and things almost grabbed in particular i eat a lot of bread so the first thing that happened was a quick snoring that happened immediately took took one week and i was snoring quite badly that so that disappeared in a week and that was amazing i thought oh that's interesting in i had gastric reflux disorder that went away and then i lost seven pounds the first month i thought home that's a lot seven pounds i had psoriasis that went away at floaters my right eye which is also not immune problem that went away i have had gum disease for thirty years that in a way that's amazing i'm fifty five like my gum disease went away i figured it although out so my life in the last year it was so sort strange it 'cause i get up in the morning and i think
all these bloody scandalous things are happening around me and i have to deal with that and then i think i need a break but i can't eat anything i cannot eat anything because if i ate the i think it would like knock me out for a month so i was trying to what the hell was wrong with my diet and i was feeling shit and so it's like if i was like wolves at the back door and crocodiles at the front door or something like that so but but whatever like i'm down to the same way i was when i was twenty five wow yeah no kidding and i've it looks enerji i wake up in the morning and i wake up that's now i happen to be my whole life i've always had i have a shower like took me an hour to wake up my whole life that's gone i'm not hungry i don't have hypoglycemia i've lost energy
so i can't go out for dinner and then you can eat nonsense you can eat i'm on the same diet meat and greens i don't have a disorder like you did in the same regard but i take a day when i have a cheat day i don't even do it every week well have a cheeseburger or something like that but for the most part that's the is that i follow as well yeah well for some people it seems like like well for a massive amount of people i think for far more people than we know i think the apple or carbohydrate poisoning themselves can't believe yes and along with all the other things that go along with it insulin yeah you know that calm blood sugars yeah good cholesterol in this this idea that cholesterol and saturated fat of the problems of people who are experiencing it's not true no the real problem is sugar and cholesterol has been demonized in i'm sure you read the article new york times or the sugar industry yeah paid off some
into star ally about the results yeah yeah well i know too that to food scientists in the u k resigned about three years ago they were they were part and parcel of the organization and it produced the food pyramid they said it was the worst public health disaster the forty years pretty much got it backwards yeah you look around you know you drive through the us it's really obvious in the us is people are overweight like mad but now yeah i can z it's crazy keyless go to disney disney when the exact it's insane it is but you know and the reason is as far as i can tell the reason is is that there are poisoning themselves with carbohydrates it looks like and the thought process is so out of wack i but we did an article today from nina tie schultz she she tweeted it about this trend of eating only egg whites now terrible it is for you it's a health disaster and this idea that cholesterol from the egg yolk is bad for is one of the most important things you can eat it's weight watchers is adjusted yeah see goes wait watch
there's diet program now adjust their approach there protocol and they say that eat all the eggs you want it is now a zero point food which is fucking incredible the way i don't get hungry is i eat a lot of oil like a lot of olive oil yes so that keeps that's you know you're basically burning fat you're on a like a key to genic diet yeah yeah when it seems to be well and that that was conflict that would been complicated enough to keep me occupied for past two years specially sorting it out with my daughter because she well that was quite the bloody nightmare i can tell you it was really something but i can't believe i figured it out it's amazing it is amazing and like she's really she's in pretty damn good shape she just had a baby like five months ago so that was awesome two yeah stun man were stunned because like it was it rough well she sounds like an incredibly exchanges quite the tough cookie that girl sounds like it many people are sing the same revelation that their diet is count
i was tired all the time i doubt it hit and i mean i was always very very active so i stayed lean because of my physical activity but by the end of the day i need an i would always take a nap before i go to jujitsu i was like i have to take a nap or i can't train carbohydrates two hours a day and now not at all me too well i think that's not exactly true when i've been zooming around i take like two minute naps when i'm in the airport or whatever that's also you're probably not getting enough sleep yeah right exactly if antioch so yeah it's been it's been remarkable so why did you stop teaching oh well i took a sabbatical because of uh this yeah well i told i told my department chair said look i i had a sabbatical coming up next year i said look you know there's too much going on it'll be better for take the sabbatical this year then i can concentrate on my teaching next year so you take the entire year off yeah
about eight months in yeah yeah yeah what i always teach from i put all my courses from january to march i teach all them in the same semester and that lame enabled me to concentrate on my research and for the rest of the time and so technically i'll be going back teaching in january of two thousand and nineteen technically technically not convinced well i can't think year ahead at the moment i don't know what the hell's going like i'm not going to go back and teach the same way because at some point the technique sql transformation means you have to approach things differently and so now if i do a lecture online whatever the lecture happens to be i can get a hundred and fifty thousand people to watch it that's minimum so the first question would be well why would i teach three hundred people when i could teach one hundred and fifty thousand that's just stupid who would do that
those same three hundred people are also have access to the home exactly that's right that's exactly it and the next thing is well i taped my maps a meeting class of my personality class for three years running it's like it's there well i could do it again but why bryce taped where i would another lecture about new things so that's what i did this year i did this biblical series which i haven't done before but now if i'm going to lecture again i'm going to lecture about different things because is the technology has transformed the landscape we're not in nineteen ninety anymore not even a little bit right so this is something that brought up the bread wine and i'm hoping he falls along the same one that weinstein not steam i make that mistake often sorry but but it is the same thing brilliant guy restricted by his university big scandal leaves and i'm hope
he follows the same path 'cause he has so much to offer and he has so much to offer for anybody who can get online and one of the things that's really fun about youtube and having my lectures on youtube is that the own only reason people watch them is one reason is 'cause they want to learn that's it and so you might think well where is the university where people want to learn right it's like ok well you tube is the university because there's hundreds of thousands of people on you maybe millions who just want to learn like fine i'm an educator i'll talk to people who want to learn because if you're an educator that's what you do most effectively done in the done in self evidently and so now i'm trying to figure this out you know like i like my job at the university u of t is treated me well apart from this scandal thing they were kind of taken aback by they didn't know what to do about that you know it was a new law and when i made the
video criticizing bill c sixteen i said i think that making this video is probably illegal in and of itself was there traversal eight moments in your career before that no wow no i mean did surprise me because i've always i would say that but the content of my lectures has been a typical but it's been a typical in a good way like the student response to my lectures has always been extremely good extremely good i'm always surprised that i was able to teach what i'm teaching because i always thought that it was insanely revolutionary but it was red solutionary in a really like in scholarly way you know like i'm a careful scientist i'm a careful thinker i think things all the way through to the boss and i'm really self critical like when i wrote maps of meaning which was my first book i see expect i rewrote every sentence at least fifteen times it's
probably more than that and i really literally mean rewrite it so i take the sentence out of the paragraph put it in another document right like ten variants of the sentence and then pick the one that was best and i did that i could took me fifteen years right i did that over and over and over and so what i was write a sentence and then i think okay have i got all the words right every single word is that the proper words the proper phrase is the proper sentence do i believe that this sentence is true then i think like of ten ways i could attack it and see if i could break it apart and find out what was wrong and only kept the ones that i couldn't destroy and like i was going out full force to destroy them because i wanted to come up with a you know come up i wanted to produce a book that i could not break no matter what i did and so i spent fifteen years on not now that was the basis
well it's the basis for twelve rules for life it's been the basis for all the lectures i've done and so forth and like i can't see where it's wrong and mostly what i was trying to do is to see where it was wrong and i can't get underneath that i can't break it that's what's so fascinating to me about all this stuff and not to not to overly exaggerate the significance of this but just to be completely honest about it you're the right guy for the job and it's sort of found you it's real weird 'cause there's not a lot of people that are that meticulous about their thoughts and about there work in about their writing about there criticizing their own ideas to the point when they break them down try to break them try a part i had a big problem so when i when i start integrate maps of meaning i thought ok what's the situation this is the cold war we've divided into two armed tribal camps and we've decided
that settling the difference between us is worth risking being itself we could we could drive everything into extinction were willing to take that chance it's like what the hell is going on what was truly driving the tribalism of the cold war including its including the generation of that fast nuclear arsenal cuz it just seemed to me to be insanity taken to the final pinnacle so i wanted to know that and i wanted to know okay having figured out why that's happening what could be done about it so it would stop and at the same time i was also studying what happened in aushwitz with the nazis all of that and so it was a very serious problem and i actually wanted to have that i actually wanted to answer i didn't want to write an interesting book about it it wasn't even that i wanted to write a book exactly it was just at writing a book was the best way to figure out the problem because it's
it's really writing a book is so rigorous you know 'cause you think you can only remember so much you have to write it down but then you can remember way more and you can write and then the next day you can go back and think ok i'm going to take that god damn argument apart going to see if there's anything about it this week and so and i think i did figure it out i think i did figure it out so and then when i when i well then i started lecturing about it lectures were always unbelievably well regarded like people the kids in the classes would always right for the evaluations at the end of your eighty percent of them would say this happened for twenty years to say this class changed everything about the way i look at the world it's like yeah that's what happened to me too and i wrote that book it's like i didn't think the same way at all when i was done i started understand what these ancient stories meant was like shocking never recovered from it listen you're at a time thank you twelve rules for life an antidote to chaos
jordan peterson i made uh made a discount for your viewers again for the future authoring program ok so what do they have to do rogan just use rogan and how do they get to the website without fourth ring dot com okay yeah yeah and i'll send you a link for thanks a latte and also thanks for everything weird world that i'm in and people say that all the time they come up and say look i heard about you on joe rogan's like like thousands of told me that so well it's been careful to spin an honor i appreciate it thank you you bet thanks everybody thanks june into the podcast and thanks to butcher box i'll go to butcher box dot com order now and you get ten bucks off plus free bacon by using the code a rogan that's butcher box dot com use the code word rogan ten bucks off and free bacon and you can
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so much appreciate you all appreciate you folks tuning in and will see you soon bye
Transcript generated on 2019-10-05.