Hello, ladies and gentlemen, how are you that's a dumb question right? You're, not you can't even answer back. That's a stupid way of addressing people. I'm not gonna! Do that anymore. I hope every what is groovy got a lot of the dates coming up the next big one uhm I do how many tickets are left but we're in New Orleans on March 15th that we, as in me and Tony Hinchcliffe March six Green Thumb in Miami at the Fillmore March, 17th in Orlando FL, at the Bob Carr performing ART center, the next week dinner at the ice House in Pasadena on the 23rd and 24th. It's a rare weekend, the ice house. I love that fucking place, though I go there as much as I can then the weekend after that Nashville on Friday, the 30th at the Ryman Auditorium and then the Ovans Auditorium in Charlotte on the 31st Kings Theatre

in Brooklyn on April six. I think that shit sold out and then The other dates that I have Irvine Improv in the 13th and 14th of April's all sold out. That's all. I got for now. Rogan DOT net yeah job. Dot com: now you still go to Joe dot net, but it just takes you to joe dot com and that's where it all goes down. This episode, the podcast is brought to you by square cash square. Cash is something that we've been talking about. The podcast a lot lately is what they've done is. First of all, they made very easy you to send money to people. If you owe some cash to a friend or family member uh you can send and receive money very easily with the square cash app. It's a free app. You downloaded for free at the app store for Google are the app store for Iphone rather or the Google play store, and when you do download it use the promo code, Joe Rogan, one word:

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for the health benefits of grass fed meat, but it is most certainly proven to be a healthier thing for your body. That's what animals are goes to eat there, not really supposed to be eating corn when you feed them that stuff? That's why they get so fat and that's where all the marbling comes from. That also gives them a lot of health issues, and that's one of the reasons why people are concerned with antibiotics in beef. One of the why they give them those antibiotics. Is they don't they're, not healthy? They get sick when, when you're that fat, like all that marbling, that's not how an animal supposed to live, the he actually looks different when you get grass FED meat, it's a darker color. I prefer the taste and uh definitely very aware of the health benefits, so Google that and look into it, but almost everyone that I know that is a health expert that talks about me and you know what kind of meat you should eat. They all prefer grass fed me

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very, very interesting thinker and uh. I really enjoyed talking to him. He is author of the strange death of Europe, immigration, identity and Islam available wherever books are sold and just a brilliant guy really enjoyed talking to him, and I hope you enjoy your conversation. So please give it up for Douglas Murray. The show Logan experience join my day, Joe Rogan Podcast, my name all day and reliable Douglas. First of all, thanks for joining me appreciate it great pleasure to be with you looking forward to talking to you. You've become an example to me, or your conversation with SAM Harris become an example to me of how squirrelly things have cotton lately with the way people interpret conversations about ideas because of this Jamie pull that thing up. This is a tweet that someone sent out and he got

the strike. A community guideline strike Joe for listening just for putting you on his play list, a commerce between SAM Harris, an you ain and uh. He this man or I don't know if it's a man, I just assumed I'm a problem, I'm part of the problem, part of patriarchy, Ztrkccx X on Twitter, that is the screen name his or her or zero screen name on twitter and got a commune guidelines strike for just put in in this now I brought this up to Iowa having dinner with some friends. One of them who used to work at google- and some who's. There was a highly ranked person that Youtube. I brought this up and the exact quote was that was because it's hate speech and I said use said that so flippantly I go. Please tell me the contents of the conversation. Do you know what they talked about? I go.

Did you say that she? Well I'm sure if someone marked as a community guideline right the or, as a striker community strike. What is it called the community guidelines that they must be hey speech. I understand this is Douglas Murray and SAM Harris uh. I bet I bet that's. Not with the conversation was about. I bet it wasn't too I'm trying to think what we did. So right now, it's making me nervous, I mean, but I know that I know it definitely wasn't hate speech by any sane definition of those words that you This is sort of thing is very disturbing to very determined We noted happening with other people, of course, and that's disturbing enough is more disturbing. Of course it happens to you, but it's slightly surreal. I mean, I know SAM Harris a bit. It's not a hateful person by my most

to Yogik com. Blissed out West Coast of America friend, and I'm pretty amazed that anyone at Google or anywhere else would think that anything that could come out of his mouth with hate. It hate speech, unless you decided that hate speech is just anything you'd personally, don't like or that words don't matter anymore. Well, that's what I'm concerned about I'm concerned that there's a ninja vendor that people who work in these. We don't even have to name the organizations, but in certain organizations are stream, left, leaning and I mean it probably better than being extremely right leaning. So it really is it's probably better than them being white. Supremacist white nationalist hate groups is probably far by. Are there radical lefties, but it be There's a problem when you're doing things like that, because things like that limit free speech and they limit the

discussion of ideas. I don't I didn't listen to your conversation. I think I into a little bit of it, but I didn't listen to in a of it to know whether or not you guys started screaming out the n word halfway in I'm sure I'd. Remember I'm sure, I'm sure you would, I sure, would have heard about it blushing more. At this moment, I had another thing that I talked about with this same person, I brought up Jordan Peterson, and you know that there's there's issues with every time he's on podcast that podcast get flagged for demonetization. The exact words were he a troublemaker and I'm like what, in the fuck. Are you talking about? Like? Are you listening to his conversations? He is very art, Google, it and he's extremely careful going over these ideas that I think we should all be discussing so to call this hate speech or to call someone a troublemaker to me.

He is symbol, simplify our symbolizes. What we're dealing with today! This is very strange time when it comes to communication and the people that regulate and distribute our communication. It is whenever I've had a chance to speak with people in that kind of world in that sort of role. The question? I always want to ask among other things is: do you know where this is going to lead? Do you know, What it's going to do? If you keep breaking down definitions and terms and words, do you know what have for instance, down the road? If, if you keep on saying that SAM Harris and dogs, my having a conversation about something is hate speech? Do you know what relief that's going to give other people down the road about what they're going to be able to get away with? This is, what's being crazy. All the time of the moment, it seems to me this is the idea that you police the discussion along incredibly narrow lines that happened to surround your own comfort zone.

And call everything outside it not just stuff. I don't agree with or things that I would argue with or debate with, but hate speech is just. I think very very dangerous down the road you can see exactly the trail that bitter gum powder goes to. I can, where do you think it girls I think it goes to a point where people become cynical about any any claims made about anyone, and the likelihood is that if ninety nine times you've seen and SAM Harris Douglas Mary, Joe Rogan Jordan Peterson, whoever called hate speech, then the 100th time that somebody uses the term great speech might be on somebody who is engaging in hate speech and all your defenses are going to be down you, nothing you very likely to become a very unlikely it to become skeptical and think, I'm

being a Dick Thomas, but don't have time, we don't have time to find out every single thought and word that someone has uttered or thought, and so it seems very likely to me that down the road, very, very bad people are able to get through the Gades Becaus we kept on making erroneous claims frivolously for our own short term gain and for our own short term comfort. And we'll end up basically bringing the gates down completely. I agree with you and I I think, there's been a lot of discussion lately as well, that I agree with where, when you make these ridiculous Claims about conversations. You empower. You actually empower radical people who opposed left wing ideology. They get more extreme. You empower the Extr famous because they know that you're incorrect. They have evidence of it. They see ridiculous behavior and the other really disturbing aspect of it is. These are the people that are just

being speech right. I mean think how many discussions are viewed daily on Youtube. It's stunning: I'm There's so much I mean we're at the beginning of this. Aren't we because I mean there's a long way for this to run along way for the censorship to run along, you can thinking, among other things, that the people trying to make the rules at the moment have no idea of the fact that these debates have happened before right. So I have not bothered to look into them. And seemed to think the history started with them and just wish that, among other things, with social media, people realize we have been through this several times before, at least and and the less is a pretty cool. Yeah. They are not that you can limit speech in order to obtain political nirvana since, nor are they that you can simply use a safer short term gain.

Musicians. You know to be wrong in order to further a short term political goal. We we, we know all this. We have been through it, the printing press. We went through it with don't ship mill, we went through it with Milton I just wish these people had any idea of the fact that history started before the parents conceived well, it's such that the whole culture of Tak. Today is such a progressive thought bubble? It's it's an echo chamber and it's a very, very a like. I it it's better that they're really progressive an open minded left wing, then radical, right wing. I think it's better yeah! No, I agree I mean if, if If by radical right wing, you mean not yeah, right, yeah yeah, of course, all these people have all, as I say, all the ability to create those people um, which power it empower them, which is something you don't want

actual racists and Nazis to have legitimate grievance claims, and you don't want them to be able to disguise themselves as something then not so I say I I. They had a friend who I am hello, friends and in the Northern Ireland conflict in many years ago. In the U K and all that many years ago, one right had a beautiful face about it with where you got to stay. Days where I was killing everyone, he said you also got to the stage where truth was whatever you were having yourself and we're not far away from that that place where I say what you call it hate speech. You say what I say is hate speech. Let's call the whole thing off we're not very far away from that. Actually Yeah it's it's strange that this, this echo chamber is being so reinforced and that very few people

stepping out and saying. Well wait. Let's take a look at this objectively yeah, the people that do do that are signaled out as being racist or sexist sir homophobic or transfer over what you know fill in the blank whatever's convenient yeah, and if it is not surprisingly, more people that want to stick their heads of right, because I mean, if you had no, job. You worked in normal office or shop or something you You really wouldn't want this coming towards you right. I mean this. This can tear apart and tear down people who spend a lifetime demonstrating. There are not the thing that they're being accused, sir, if nobody knows anything about you, you have no particular person, that you have no particular back record. You don't want this thing coming to tell your life down right, because Recovering from that accusation is almost impossible. It would take forever. It is basically impossible, and only you do along the way is to to keep reminding people of the charge

true and if you were to ever win on a technicality like everyone would have forgotten, you know: yeah, that's the race is the rapist. Rape is a member him yeah, it's so simple, but it's it. I feel like in some strange adolescent stage of communication and it's been a bunch of talk lately. There's there were some something that tweeted earlier today, some new technology they believe it were ai- is going to allow people to literally see other people's thoughts right, and I I am I mean I am forever. Optimistic, but also terrified and my feeling is that our transition from language. Here it is new. Ai system can see what you are thinking, which is just what the hell does that mean? I'm concern, but also optimistic? I feel like we're

this transition period from regular communication to written communication to written communication online right beach online video online, where there's this instant access to all this. These ideas are being debated and tossed around like beach balls in real time and ideas are being distorted, people's positions are being distorted for for other people's gains and that there is this willful May s of the truth that something is going to come along. That's going to combat that, but at what price? If the I mean the I, I can't see what would come along to do it other than people rebelling against it. The right free will is, it doesn't doesn't seem like happening happening, though it seems like there's a few people that are wrecked, like yourself and there's many others that are recognized. The problem with this is people talking about the problem of it online, but for the most part,

the mass of people are engaged in this, and it's also it's idea. Support there's idea, sport going on where their side they want their side to score Shel Joe. What will that, your country, at any rate. Now all of our wars of the moment is hack. We make sure that that the other side trips up on this I've. I thought this I've written this all through the me too era, let's in in your country and in my find people basically are willing to go for somebody who is a political opponent. Who does something very minimal, and I to defend some on there inside to does something bigger and I can see it all the time it just. There are different standards that apply get your inside that apply to the other. People, don't hiding it very much anymore, not at all They really don't have the ability to hide. No

had a case. Recent in the UK, where somebody who was a great here to the left, full cels complicated reasons was, is accused of some fat. I'm very serious, groping accusations on and exactly the left wing Mps who had been claiming that somebody who had sent out a tweet about a woman's breasts in two thousand nine should never hold any role in public said that this person, who just happened to be a friend and then I kind of this, was a changed man and we have to reckon This eighteen months ago, now my favorite video on this was there was a guy who is some religious christian man on television and he was talking about Trump and he was talking about who Trump was before he became president. He goes, but I I don't know about you, but I Jesus and I do not have a past- put praise Jesus.

And he's he's saying this and everyone's check he whoever he was before he found Jesus as if Trump got The office is like you know what I'm a new man I found Jesus. I got the Jesus past all that stuff that I did the last seventy years. Well, some people, some people, clearly there's there's a Janice, Malcolm Muggeridge, my distinguished figure in the media some years ago, but he he was often noted that his he confessed a Catholicism. He a mutual friend once said that it was their symbol of Malcolm Muggeridge, always attack to vice immediately off to heat becoming capable of it himself. When it was clear, the Muggeridge didn't have as much sex as he did. Family. Often in his youth sex was Big problem is a giant problem and need to let everybody know yeah virtue, signaling to the highest. Let everybody know this is awful all that pleasure and flash

stop it. I would have it. I had a lot of it, but I don't have it anymore, not in my bedroom. It's just I, no man, I'm just I'm hopeful, I'm hopeful that we're going to work through this, but I'm also disturbed, because no, once at the wheel, there's there's no particular logical human, logical human being at the wheel that has that has a real rational The solution for all of these issues is just chaos and infighting. The problem is again: it comes out the thing about the truth, being whatever you having a south, we don't have anyone that we might mutually agree. On a some kind of pot yeah I mean that's, that's becoming that's becoming part of the problem. Who will I mean, I'm be very suspicious of any pipe. Forward, but I, where would you roughly look for one I like to think the truth still masses, but

You know when you discover that a lot of people don't seem to take you the calf or willing to sacrifice, as I say, for some other purpose, including winning a goal. I'm it's hard to see how you could Judy case in this era, but it's just one of those that which is love this has to do with whether or not the online on world can forgive. This seems to me to really central thing. One of, one of the things that came up the case? I said we see about this two thousand nine cases, I'm the person who tweeted about a woman's breasts. Among other things, was he mistook Twitter for a conversation with friends? and how did he do that here I mean he in not a journalist and was was gonna, get the office anyhow, but the point is: is it

No, we don't really know the rules of that I mean I what if you were a bit of a deck ten years ago, like that right on medium, that people were still finding their way on, and now you are a you moved on the kids right and and yet the the breast tweet is always with you. I mean it, it's it's it's this sort of dystopian nightmare that you'd always be stuck with your worst joke. You stuck with your lowest sort of moment recently with Bill Maher right bill. There was something that he wrote. I think one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine right, which is insane. I mean twenty nine years ago he wrote sizing and people used. It recently against him and twenty nine. I don't know how old Billy is. I don't think bill is even sixty so we're talking

That's something that he wrote when he was in his twenties eyes: a struggling stand up, comedian, the the the the the the the it's. It's very good for this. Isn't it awesome because you could dig up everyone everyone's maiden, everyone is everyone. Screwed up shop are from you for yourself. It's we had some of the evidence in the in the in in person who who ever wanted to go full suddenly and they found an article he had written about it saying he isn't agree with Holocaust denial laws. He had his job. He said he just thought is a bad idea for free speech in it and when the when the internet was a second trying to find out other stuff about him, they found an article which said I'm hola courses- and I are so you know, prosecute me- sort of think which he isn't a holocaust tonight. It's just nobody bothered to read beneath the headline as they suddenly in the middle the thing where I was telling about his life? They also said and he's a holocaust denier, and that was that was there and then

some something he wrote fifteen years ago. Anyone these on the right is the headline of something yeah they have on them again in a week has to get on to the next victim everyone's a in I it's almost like people, I mean it's obviously the case of living in glass houses and throw tons of rocks, but it's almost like everyone is just trying to throw as many rocks as they can before rockstar coming their way because they know it's inevitable. Well, I I thought fat and I thought until Friday the object. Life in the modern era was to prove Everyone else was a racist, nazi misogynistic transferred, and then you win, is on how good coronation yeah, and I it hot your the person who did but now yes, it seems everyone is aware that it's it's it's mexican gunfight yeah.

I have a friend of mine who had been on this podcast before back when he was a radical left, his name's James, Jamie Kilstein, and he's a stand up comedian. And he was a real radical social justice, warrior male feminist lefty and they turned on him radical. What did they do horribly? Well, they found out. He was trying to have sex with girls. No that can another one and it was there, was just having sex. It was eight when he lived. He meaning didn't rape, anybody right and grope anybody. He just you know right. He threw some passes right and and and is doing, and these one hundred percent successful yes you're over, oh yeah, the same exact past could be your future wife right right. This one just fell fifteen, it sure is no room for error, but he he took a long time off of social media. In a long time off of performing in the state came on, he was really brave about it. He talked about who used to be, and he said

he was in this frantic state where he was just honestly attacking people just attacking people and then checking on his twitter scene responded to that attack and who, who people are on his side. Your our people agree with him is. Is he getting those social justice points that he wanted, and he is really honest about the feeling that he got that anger anxiety that I think lot of people engage in on a daily basis. A lot of, if you go to people yeah, there's a quite a few people that I fall. That seem always be in conflict I just go to watch just go to their page almost like I'm watching a fist fight a backyard right and they're. Just it seems like this. Does they're they're addicted to this constant seesaw of emotions in this interaction that clearly isn't it releases, necessary chemical in there and they get they get upset when they step away from for a bit I buy. I don't engage in any of that that bit of it, because I've seen seven a lot of the most mediocre minds of my generation brought low by this

yeah. I mean there are some people who I admired until I followed them on social media and and now I just think you there, your the shout to younger angry person who he's like a drunk that closing time, desperate, flailing around with your are looking for somebody to fight with her and and to what end you know I mean other, is another expense I had I've had in recent years. It led me to not want to engage in this is, is walking around Clinton at various events and sort of breakout things you eat. We need people I admire in the past all saying things like: how do you see that, Sir, that you see I flame decks on twitter? I I do you see what I'm I tweet about that. I think these used to be serious people now. Listen, these used to be serious. People engage

in serious things, and here they are engaged in these full of flailing fist fights. I know from often let's face it on things which, if you didn't do it like that seeking out the fight of the sort of thing that would allow for normal human interaction. I mean how many disagreements we have with people in a personalized all the time if we wanted to right, you didn't vote this way. That way, I mean some people would mind about that, but you know I I know you've. He thinks like differently from me on this particular issue. You don't say: let's have that out now once and for all. You You, you find ways to live with people's difference and different opinions, and you know I mean you're not going to get everyone exactly in line. I mean that we all knew that before the age of social media or now it seems to be the only I. What do you think that is?

It did me think it's what we were discussing earlier, that it's idea, sport and then you just get caught up in like someone volleyed your way and see if the smash that tennis ball back their way. It is something like that I mean I I can't say I haven't felt vicarious pleasure of some of that myself. You know the old chinese proverb about sitting by the river, watching the bodies of your enemies float by. I had a big sense of that. The other day when somebody I deeply disliked, came a cropper on social media. At the same time as somebody else, I deeply disliked was being held by the french police officers charges. I thought That was a. I felt that the chinese proverb let that's alright, and so I know I can. I can see why people feel it sure and, of course, people who they, could never normally get to here. They've got to right and I think that's, I think, that's a big, the the big thing of lean it look. I pokes that in a wall in the yeah yeah I'm I never engage on social media for precisely that reason,

that was among others, that you would never. I would never want somebody to know they could get to me, even if they, even if you just block them, there's many people who take pride even in there. Adding they say I am blown on twitter by all these people, and- and I see I do sometimes read what people say is said to me: and I've never blocked anyone, because I still think you should mind if you put your ideas out there, you might as well be as open as possible to receiving them back. Some time ago when I got into a row with the with the turkish president about about thing. I got all these turkish sort of account setting is out. There is one guy. You just repeatedly sent me pornography of animals having sex. So I don't know it is it's very. It was very hard core, and so I used to go down the field there. Again, I didn't even block him actually 'cause thought well somewhere in history yeah. I man Greeman, find

in horse pornography sent to Maine and in a way I felt so sorry for him that that was how his life would comma. You know the end is life would come to at this stage that I I couldn't even block him and also he'd, be like I'm the donkey porn guy who got blocked by Don. You get a certain faint what was his motivation for sending you this stuff. He I had. It was because. Well, it is a show. So it is a couple years ago live the Pataki's president tried to get the german towns that, to imprison the german comic for a very rude poem. He'd read on that on on german television. That was insulting about job. The tech is president and the german authorities that she started the case against the comedian for insulting the turkish president at Whim.

And I decided to launch a an offensive poetry competition to offend the tech is president and there was a thousand times cash prize and it sort of took off in the end, the now foreign secretary and to the one yes really great. Yes, it was really good because at the same time that the Germans were looking at imprisoning at a comedian, the the now phone sex for the UK was guilty of precisely the same. Crime ie mean it wasn't a crime, it couldn't be a crime, a couple other people, wonderful, dutch comedian, friend, Han Johnson or so do similar thing a time he he decided to do an interview live on dutch television explaining how much he hated. I do I'm because he still owed him money from the blow job he'd given at one in the sauna I live on. The inside and

dutch authorities were looking at that you're looking at a loss if they would prosecute him, but anyhow, but the but this was this. Was I had a great time with this, of course, and I write a limerick explaining how, abuse, I want to be able to be about add that it was necessary to be highly defamatory and We wouldn't get away with it if you just called him a wanker or something. I read the opening verse and invited the world to contribute yes, they did and it became, among other things, the highest paid, poetry, competition, the world. If, like me, you wrote a limerick, just five lines is too One hundred pounds of poetry magazine can pay you for such such such X. Anyhow, on the basis that I became very, very unpopular in Turkey, There were many many of pieces talking about how this k e terrible, add to an hater in Britain was exactly what we're up against so many times.

Oh, my god wow. So the german government was actually. Considering yes prosecuting this guy. How far did they take it? he was taken in for questioning. I know he had to retain lawyers hi fairly sure did any drop it in the end because of the international attention that was paid to it. There was you see there was this law on the books is still said. It was a lesson I just a law about defending foreign rulers and he had he had done it. Such an important reason, one of which is to say the note We in Germany should have the right to be rude at a particularly Adlon who you know from made from Matt Prime Minister, not a president wants to be sold on. You know I mean it. A very bad man locked up more journalists per capita. I think than any other in the world other in China, which I we can get the stats on a very, very evil

I think man who, who is his country backwards in the last twenty years and is in the process of trying to destroy wonderful country, and if you can't be rude about him, if you can't pretend that he sleeps with animals which is what the german comedian started with then somewhere down the line, you'll be able to say anything about the imprisoned journalists either and so on, and since So, by the way people don't seem to spend much time worrying about the turkish journalists and one in prisons. The least they paid attention when I said that he and Angela Merkel got up to really filthy filthy acts in the zoo. Well, obviously the worst case of retaliation for humor is probably Charlie. Hebdo right I mean which is terrible, Unfortunately many people weren't.

Defending the murder, but we weren't talking to murders. I mean, I think, how many I think was. Eleven people are murdered and on the place and the police officer they, but They were saying that, instead of concentrating on the murder, which was done completely out of this, reinforcing their room, their ideology and retaliation for any mocking of that ideology. Instead of that, they were talk about how racist Charlie Hebdo us yeah, there's a out of that, in fact, my friend Jamie Kilstein was a part of that, but he was on television back in his suit for Social Justice Warrior days talking about that. You wish, among other things, that people said now, I'm not talking about something if they don't know about it. Yeah my guess- was that until until the murders I mean an infinitely small number of people knew about Charlie Hebdo outside of France. I found myself in the way

of that in studios with people who I know had just googled Charlie up there the day before I know that they just gone to Wikipedia and read it english version of a claim about what that magazine was about goes back that thing, but my point about the journalist in the Holocaust denial thing that just route around a bunch of people being killed this doesn't seem to vindicate my size ideology that, for let me find what I can do to defame them. A no good somebody that shot up day once did this cartoon. That was off color and I can't understand what the words are only fit, but I'll I'll claim it's racist. I mean people were actually doing that they. Actually there were, there was a. There was one cartoon that would use again shot after after the massacre, the was a joke against the from NASA now and the claims they were making about the black woman in the Sarkozy government, but because they, the joke in the village. If you didn't speak French, it wasn't clear

and if you knew nothing about recent french kissing, you do nothing about the places that sucks cuz you Menstration time and the minutes. When questioned these people just went through it and said racist cartoon not noticing that the cartoon was actually a joke about racists, but they didn't. They didn't bother to find that out, and I thought that I thought The whole thing among many many other things, was deeply worrying from that point of view, because it means that in the immediate aftermath something it should be so damn clear. A bunch of people can just try to reframe the narrative, yeah and re and change the history of a publication yeah. I'm claim it is just something this. And and a lot of people of that was very- that was very convenient because,

after all, if Charlie up there's stuff actually were these racist, then you know you didn't need to worry too much about the or why you'd been silent on the issues. They've spoken up about yeah the narrative. It then been that these people had been mocking this disenfranchised marginalized group right in society and that they had it coming yeah and some very strange way, and it's what part of me struggle with that because it was like, is this: some people just have contrarian instincts, everybody's going? Is they just go, just go and like it and they want to go the other way. There's so many people that have that instinct and then there's, as you said before this headline mentality, They read the headline and don't look any further into it. Even if it's a headline about a headline right there, that's all they need. There armed with the facts, they slam the laptop down and start debating, yeah and

and in that case, is in many others totally lose sight of the only thing that matters. The only thing that matters in that case being is ever right to make apologies for people walking into an office and gunning down people fill opinion. You don't like be honest, did which has city, of course no has to be, has to be no, yes, and yet in these moments, so we had one hundred and twenty years before, with the Rushdie affair the satanic verses of her. In these moments, you discover you, don't have the allies on your side, you thought you did in the speak of the rusty of an eighty nine. It was people from right and the left in person who started making excuses for the Ayatollah. We had the chief rabbi, then of the Uk Jacobovitz to his to his shame, said both

Mister Vercetti, Anvi Ayatollah, have offended people's feelings as if someone wished he had, in called on all novelists to go to Tehran assassinate the Ayatollah, if they had a chance, had a somebody like a right wing. Conservative minister, Geoffrey Howe, who said that said the divorce. You done dad really offended person he'd been rude about breast as if that had anything to do with anything that was the one that there was one famous case of a of a conservative here he said about Rushdie the d: it wouldn't bother him if a group of young Muslims took most of Washington, alleyway and told him some man as. I'm so you can you have that from the left, as well as Bunny Ground Labor, MP famous. He said that point. The bunny books wasn't a problem for him.

And that is when they were burning the satanic verses in Bradford. So you get these weird coalitions of people who suddenly turned out not to get the point not to get the point not want to defend, and then, of course you get the cowards to say things like well, it wasn't my sort of novel. You know I didn't think a novel with all that good. I I'd midnight's children. I could cope with this kind of us. He lost me with the plot as if that means that then you can call for the death of the author rather than just give it back review. How is he now the salmon Rushdie still in hiding? I know he does a lot of interviews now and it seems to be more relaxed. Yes, that would he seems to be. I don't know the specifics he there was an assurance. I think, given some years ago in the labor, yet labor government there with Tehran that they would not actively encourage them letter of rusty anymore nice, and I saw them that's a freeze relations unfreezing relations, but

the point I want to make is again: we've we've been through these things. We know how it plays out with the Charlie, Hebdo Events, the murder of the staff and the contribute so that magazine we knew in them he did often off what was going on and that that there were people who just wanted to make excuses, and- and you still have that everywhere I mean I've- heard it on every single free speech. Debate in my adult life. Remember the wish debate growing up, and I remember in every one of the things in recent years from the danish cartoons to the Jewel Medina scandal or publisher in London's fire bond for publishing and novel that was actually amazingly form

about Muhammad to Shelly. I've done since you you just get these this strange group of people from right and left some believe as some non believers. He always just come up with these bullshit bullshit arguments and and say things like well, I didn't find the cartoon very funny at all. Well, I never! I never took that magazine seriously. Wide eyed. I didn't think it was right when they did this and it's just they just don't for some reason have the fortitude to just save, anything that matters in the wake of that which is no. Do you think that because Islam is unique in their approach to anything that goes outside the lines of what they feel is absolutely acceptable and the mean, and in terms of like they will murder you few drama yeah? This is this. Is this is what the what's been described? is the internalization of the fat or, if I'm sure, you've had this experience. But it's at

worse. The presumption is worse than the actual reality I have caught. Often people sent me know him. I'd like like to write this piece about x, but I don't know if I can, because you know it might get death sentence and actually I always say what you talking bout write it Fortunately, so far I haven't given that advice, and this is in being in any way underneath the actual danger. Let let being killed right but- and I think I might feel differently if that what was the case but but that's, but there is an overcompensation occuring at the moment and it goes far far within the within the boundaries of what actually could plausibly get you into any trouble. Whether or not the trouble is to get into a knot so that now yeah I've had many journalists in recent years, particularly Charlie updates will sidle up to me and so on. Quite like

this. Why do I don't dare, and you know I mean I'm talking out for like very basic reporting and things they're, not people saying hey. I decided to draw great big cartoon of Muhammad with a great big pick- and you know having sex with the Pope, Porter is not, that is never. There is never people saying I really just so keen to draw Mohammed today Douglas. What did I do it never is that it's always something way way way down. I'm thinking of even like saying something critical of certain regimes so the internalization of the fatwa. Since one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine, which has been exacerbated now by the killings that Charlie Hebdo and elsewhere are the attacks on the there's Boston. Nandemo means that we are in this period where, where people really hyper hyper, so setif and they really shouldn't be because it really isn't that bad. It's not as bad as they think.

But this is, you know you can do so much work. If you, if you say to people, I've got kalashnikovs on my side. I mean the the x and people in free societies. I got other really really loathe to admit this, but it's a classic. Is the classic sort of mob trick. You know knocking on someone's door, I'm very disappointed in you, but my friend here my huge and is is really angry and I'm just holding him back You can do an amazing amount of work if you're willing to pull that kind of trick and if you can persuade people- and it's actually the case that there are people you're holding back. Then you can make enormous inroads like that. Especially when there is actual evidence that people have been murdered and have been one of the more fascinating things up.

Charlie Hebdo to me was the refusal of any of the mainstream media to show any of the cartoons. Yes, you had to go online and I felt like this was a. They gave up the reins of information to the internet and it was It was a real transitionary moment in our culture, yes, everyone went online to see what they have any place to go part from your parents. You know I mean they were still under the impression that these must be so incredibly pornographic cartoons that were really really viciously attacking somebody, but most anyone Duncan could find this out themselves and you're right there. They gave up the the space to the net and that they will. They will had again these sort of rubbish, XII arguments the road about it. I tried in Britain to get the press to do it, one guy, I'm for days after the massacre and got pretty close, that if everyone is there, so I am Spartacus tactic. If

Everyone did it at once. Then it would be ok, but it would make it easier than the argument you always get about. That is, and it's a very persuasive argument is the editor of the Heaven magazine or newspaper might get protection cell box. You know ago, from the typing pool sort of thing at the end of which is what happened. I see in some of the study versus killings, stabbings and things. You know they said the norwegian translated Japanese translate into it is people who, on the nose security particle, could possibly end up all getting protected it and and on the Bay pieces of fearing that the boss, or almost always says no. One of the more uniquely american responses to the Charlie Hebdo Attack as they had a draw Mohammed contest in Texas. Yes, I followed that yeah. That was, fascinating and some guy showed up and stay.

The shooting at the building and they were killed almost immediately, which is because there in Texas and that's just not the place to fuck, I mean I mean the the the editor shot after had police protection from Harris, and they just I mean, I suppose it who know what twenty a bit of in that they, the the the the battle trained people who were sent from Yemen yeah cat operation. We just were better prepared than that right. French authorities realized very few people are really ready to militarize cartoonist offices mean in it's really almost what you would have to do. You would have to have you know the seals of bullet proof, vests, yes and then locked and loaded, and then let's face it, I mean the whole thing. Then you do start to question. You know like you will. Is this cartoon that funny right yeah and that that's what they actually I've done it earlier? If they have, they did a while

ok, say: look it we're not going to keep doing this, but didn't they Muhammad making out with someone like almost immediately immediately after that's right, yeah but after about? year or so they they they stopped. They said they didn't want to do Muhammad again and and uh, and you can't blame them. I mean this. Is the thing? Isn't it I'm sure you have this expensive in these the times I always get people on the about from the turkish donkey porn guy other people on twitch. Send me things like you know. Well, why don't you draw Mohammed sort of stuff sure and first of all, I'm not a cartoonist, but secondly, He, the way in which this is a with presented is amazing because he's always fall, Xena, Warrior Princess twelve. Ninety three, you don't have the guts to draw Muhammad Mari and you know I like well. Well, you know you know the got to have your name on twitter mate. So but there's there's a bit of

taking a long and what happens in those cases. I don't want to draw Muhammad. I don't want to piss people off by drawing drawing cartoon, but what I do want to point out is that you, if you, if you don't defend people's rights, to draw things without get, murdered. Yes, then you're living in an insane society and there's a Another thing we did, we all know what comes next, I mean my point, but this has always been think of something smaller than a cartoon. To do right, I mean I still reserve the right to be amazed that we call something a cartoon crisis and keep a straight face right, You know we have to militarize in Garland TX 'cause, there's a cartoon crisis. Well, did you know natural progg mission could easily be your you're not allowed to draw the cartoon then from there you're not allowed to speak of drawing right and then from there. You have to show that you

a very certain idea in your head of what is good and what is bad. So you have to show that by verbalizing, something so you're forced to run for forced a verb Well I something and let's face it, it's not as if it's just the cartoon! That's the problem is that I mean it's a novel. It's short so on so forth to anything, and that's one of my big beefs about this- is that I don't want to not say what I think is true, and even if that does offend, you know one point three or four billion people. It is often said phones that are not entirely on threatening if, if shot it does on the Us Control Cotton Muhammad that, then I know that exactly in tandem with that is somebody saying and the you Douglas or you Joe you. Anyone else can't say, what you find in the texts or what you think about this religion and and you can join the rest of the society and being brave,

and you know going to the book of Mormon on a Friday night for a laugh, and it is a laugh. But don't you dare think of apply to Islam, the same kind of speech you would apply to Mormonism and that so that I wouldn't do I just I just won't join in on that. And despite that being, you know a price to pay for that, but I just want not say what I think is true these masses? Are you aware of what they did with South Park? Well, yes, of course, which is south Park. It got very crazy, were they not only could not draw Muhammad? They couldn't Muhammad in a bear suit. So then they had have Mohammed in a bear dude in an armored car, so You could even see him, but it was implied that Mohammed was inside the armored car in a bear suit and still, but they did Mohammed.

Voice didn't they Mohammed. Like went yeah. They gave a screwy voice, squeaky voice. So that was ok as long as you joke about the Voice of Mohammed you're. Ok, but don't you dare show him? It's fucking insane, but it is really weird as well because because- and again they all make presumptions. It's just not true. It's not true that nobody ever drew Mohammed. It's not true there are illustrations in books that are still on sale of very old illustrations of Muhammad throughout his lamic history as before they knew better Bro today I know better. They got a new note for Muhammad mom was like look. I don't like these draws me the knowledge about it out, yeah starring, killing people, they don't send my best side, and this is this- is it this is a very strange position to be in because S park ends up yes holding the line, then s part yes, weirdly. Like you know, fat war against s parking lot. I didn't see that headline coming again. Everyone internalizes and everyone thinks. Well, you know uh

I admire them in their mormon work, but I wouldn't show it follow them in their Mohammed works so and then, coach, it and that's that's. I think where we are at the moment on this, and I I've just The cartoon will never be funny enough. The job will never be funny enough novel, never be good enough and so on and and then in the end, the speech will never be worth speaking enough. I I little while ago, had a very clear experiences. I read about it on the radio in Britain, where I was discussion with muslim cleric, whose sort of reformist figure- and I admire in some ways, two in a discussion about something said: well, Well, you know also Muhammad prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him was he took criticism in his eye Yeah took criticism very very well. He never minded people criticizing him only mens absolute crap,

that is real crap. I mean whatever logic, he Muhammad not really good on this on the criticism of himself bed and I gave an example of a female boat as we had killed 'cause. She criticized him and this guy went absolutely ape shit. And refused to continue and so on and ' 'cause. You gave an actual, because I gave an historical example from his own religious texts. And uh, and in the end it was a pre recorded the end, the BBC, but I get drivers. Can you find another way of trying to make the same point and you know and that was what we had to do. I mean I am in another way of making the same point out rather than pointing out the historical facts that showed that Muhammad did have a female poet killed. Yes,. We just one other way. Would there be to make that point? That is that odd, but that's the uh submit way to make that point exactly, which is by pointing to the texts and the facts, but

you know I I can think of no other situation in which somebody has veto rights like that in a normal discussion and it's because there are terrified of the route. Yes, I mean I knew everyone in the production box was like. Oh no, what's Douglas done, how can we stop it affecting our? What was clerics response to that he yeah. He he went yes a bit nuts and wouldn't continue in less I, you know wouldn't say that, and so what did he denied that it was in the tax yeah? It said I was making it up and has a lot I'm used to that, but that that's a crazy thing for him to say when someone could just read the text yeah, but they have. The banking on may be doing that. Well, not in this day and age, Don't bank on that yeah I this is. This is one releasing things, isn't it because, although it's true you- can like suppress a lot of this. You know we do we live in an age when, basically anyone can google and find texts and they can just run it

I think that a billion people have read, I'm not sure they read it, but yeah well possess it. They own it. How many people think Reddit? How many people think read the Bible I have yet to click. Yes, there are a number of Christians in this country. There are those tests on the eight sometimes to the human side and yeah. I did a few has got all seem very basic questions, self, professed Christians about the knowledge of the tax and very few lying, and then my favorite self professed Christians with religious tattoos like Hey man, you got to read the whole book like you are literally showing on your skin that you didn't read the whole book didn't pay, certainly don't do that. This is live. Because this is a live it because that's the that's what the implications against writing, I begin I say go if you read of it, is a heck of a lot. You can do if you yeah, if you could on live it's because I can't wear two pieces of different cloth. Yes x,

exactly yeah limited. This is a wonderful book is very good for the mohead. What Leviticus wasn't the one which was the book where the guy called upon the she bear to kill the children who are mocking his baldness I know about that. One, my favorite special, bald guy. This guy was getting mocked by children, fucking, kids and God called upon a she bear to come down and tear apart these children who were making fun of his bald head here. Leyshon. The two bear two kings. Yeah look at that wow went up to bed. If you are going to intervene in human affairs for anything, this would be the time when the kids get to steppin. Listen this. We have this kind of stuff going on young kid, young, kids, K well from the city and mocked him and said to him. Go up. You bald head, go up, you bald head, which is very mild.

And when he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord, all caps, then to The female bears came out of the woods and tore up four, the two lads of their number and he went from there to Mount Carmel, it's like you know, deal it's over, got it done. Yeah! my favorite reading from scripture as well. At the end of one of the books are coming, which one it was a Corazon. You made me love for those of this. We did the destruction of the city of Nineveh it may have been in it, for me, is, I think, nothing phases type to the whole book. You know low in that in that city were forty thousand is in human cells that were destroyed and had also some cattle.

That'll just by association up some cattle bad cows. There are bad cows, God how to fuck up those cows too, but now the bolt head, one, that's I time to to try. Send him to send even an insult. You know. No, bald head is just an accurate description I mean that is not an insult. If you like you ugly, sloppy, bald, headed, loser. Okay, then, maybe God need to step in and send some wolves to attack you, and why do they specify that their female yeah? Why is it female forty two of the number forty two yeah that number two bears for one both head? Doesn't some bitch ass kids need to learn how to run that doesn't even make and so how the fuck those bears even catch. All forty two of those kids that kind of kids and they raise it over there in Bethel, need to get the fuck out of there. Were there

sitting around waiting. Their turn mean trying out curse words till one causes the bears that come down. You shaggy bear that didn't work. You shaggy mangy dirt e pinky bear bold head Yeah, there's so many of the stories that are so strange that I've been. I bet I bet that the that most, if we, if we, if we were to go to the the people who say that Christians in the polls and ask him about, we don't even need to get the bold head, bear right old testament. Is they don't accept old? Most people don't even bother reading that 'cause, it's just it's almost too crazy, yeah, but but the very very little knowledge, even about very basic things, even commandments, and so on. So So that's the case with the religion that in America and Britain is known best with Christianity There's, no reason to assume that that's not the case with Islam as well. Isn't that the case with people I mean it seems to be the same thing that we're talking about with headlines, someone read

headlines. They don't bother reading into it, and then they accused someone something it's almost like with religion. Christian and I'm a christian man. Oh really, please tell me about the Bible right, there's something. I've often thought. This is one of the reasons why that it's possible to get a certain fanaticism going within muslim communities on some issues. To do with mass, for me is, I think, is to do with a realization of this. You said that this was the case about our profit. I didn't know that he did. What I had this all my adult life with with with various muslims about things the. Very rarely know the problems in their own tradition and when you bring them up that water, what he did, what like the Christians of the bold Ben

and- and this call is, is a really serious problem for them, because they are told from the cradle that the they are following a religion founded by the most perfect man imaginable. And if you discover that the beef you is that you know it, and then there there's no description of Helen of Troy, invention text. Why did they beat school? I wonder, why did they be saved, even if she was sort of this? little blonde ringlets order is because it actually catches on as a theme, because Everyone makes Helen of Troy their most beautiful woman. If you start disk, I believe I'm not into redheads, everyone would handle toy, becomes a person upon you whom you put all of those things and in the same way Mohammed becomes, if you say, is the perfect human being people will. Just throughout their lives, put the kind of things they think are perfect onto Mohammed. It must be very kind, very generous, very caregiving and so on. So,

but if you then say well what about when he vended this, I think it just causes an extra hurt, this is something they'll have to get over. Of course, because I mean we can't go away and not not identify these, these issues- but it causes in the short term and enormous enormous pay, I have an exam, like a recent in a book of them, somebody I spent some time with could be as good extraordinary magical Morten storm. He was a danish by K. The big been a biker gang and then Denmark, I went to prison and imprison about two thousand or so he converted not just with lumpy converted two arcade are basically he's, not a not a common person in any way and He ended up being the main go to person for some reason. Our lock you in the head of Al Qaeda in Yemen and in fact, was asked to give him get a wife. I will likely to supplement his wife.

Action and a mostly still Monahans ended up falling out with Al Qaeda and ended up working for the CIA and danish intelligence and ended up helping lead them to our lucky, who is an droned by a bomb and two thousand levels? Anyhow, I will set to a mortal storm. What was the moment that made you get out of Al Qaeda and he had such a fascinating. So because he came out of our culture and Islam. At the same moment, he What was happening was he was sitting in his. He was waiting for a package from Al Qaeda drop off to get them from him to our and the the the person carrying the package was late and then really late, and he was sitting in his apartment somewhere in Germany. I think point and he was so pissed off about this and he had a laptop that was there on the table and he thought.

Basically, how can I express my pissed ofness with my Al Qaeda colleagues for wasting my time like this so much and he went to Google and he typed in contradictions in Islam and began to read wow? That was how he got out wow, that's what did him in he just in late. He just started reading again. They told me this. They never told me that I never knew that, and that was so, as I said, he's a very very uncommon, but I think that might be happening quite a lot more than we know people just googling things finding stuff out out it's the most dangerous religion to leave 'cause, they kill apostates. I do How is he dealing with that? Well, he lives in hiding's I mean wow yeah yeah. He wrote a book called agent storm

about two years ago. One of the weirdest conversation that I ever saw anybody have with someone who is a believer was Doc Means, I think it was having a conversation with someone. He asked him point blank whether or not he believed that Mohammed Split, the moon. Oh yes, I think I know this was with Vacas enemy of mine, who may have some who were found zero and who Richard Dawkins to interview with, and I think he that's why he fluffed something earlier on door, because he they didn't take on that. He took him on on this. That's, and I think that sounds said. Yes didn't. He said yes, and then it led to this terrible problem, which is a really interesting, interesting problem of our area, which is then talking said. I can't believe that somebody or set after die company that somebody can be a working journalist and believe Mohammed flew to the moon and a half human horse right

and, of course, Eminem. So there's a interesting point there. Of course, we do quite rightly allow people to believe Bizar Arlington same thing. Exactly and if we started saying you can't have public office or work in journalism. If you profess to be of this particular, then we wouldn't get any way. We wouldn't have anyone left, How does a story go Mohammed, flew to the moon and a half human horse yeah and split the moon with the sword. Is that what it yeah I come in there? You could have then been at tax by female Bestbuy com. No, I can't yes, he it's the night journey which is a central and how the moon get glued back together again, who is it could back together? It looks like it is. I have a look close. Maybe I need to pay more attention

it's just the fact that a primary uh. I believe this was a few years ago. Let's just say it was two thousand and ten that this interview, or that this debate took place. Yes, even run them eight years ago that someone would be comfortable sing, oh that they believe that see. I gotta do a little Richard going to annoyed about me because I took the Mickey out of for dodging the one earlier in that it was the earlier one he okay marketed as they run, is a show, but he he knows exactly where the cliff edges soon and in that interview he he was also houses there by this into your. He says he read out of it from the God delusion about. You know as a great bit of rhetoric about to

the most gotta describes. God is something like the most appalling narcissistic murderous blah blah blah character in all the fiction is a terrific piece of writing and the interviewer says the Dawkins. Do you stand by that as a description of the christian God? Dorgan says? Yes, this is a new script and buy it as a description of the jewish Gotten says. Yes, then he says, and what do you say the same thing about the muslim God and I just exactly what's happening and races Dawkins has about the missing tonight and they so much which he he as I say he he he he he thinks I shouldn't rip him on this and the thing was that I notice was it just. I just completely felt he's been a very brave and brilliant writer and think about these matters and nobody's done more in some ways, but he I know exactly what was happening. He was staring right over the cliff edge and some it is behind him nudging and that if he had of

read as it were alive on even oh, yes, Allah, the total bastard. Then I you know you don't maybe less maybe you'll, then in real trouble you know, and so he stepped back from the brink. Then I rather crudely bats, took the Mickey out of him office. What I said that it was just the Richard Dawkins was demonstrating a survival instinct of his speech these, but that's real bad about it. But it is true. It is true, but we've all been And that is some extent and what was his role monster. That, though,. To my your criticism? He m. Well, you he, basically, he I think he did take it on board in a way site, complex reason, but I I know I know I know he was also annoyed that I was that way. The I think he felt that I was doing that to him. Then you do it right right, I'm- and that is

very common in that I've had that a lot in my life of this particular area of people trying to beg me over. Why don't you say that course, and you know that there are people who will be one million miles behind you, oh yeah, with their ears plugged yeah, I'm behind a wall I was a very, very visual aid of it. Somebody who got use is a terrific reformer ahead in Islam that now and a can of the cleric who once described, he went to fight the mujahideen in Afghanistan and thirty years ago now and this guy to me, he thought of a fight to Lee, like person described how he did that she sort of a while up to sort of run over and get out the Soviets, and he let you know we're all agreed. Yes, we'll get a yes I go to, and he- and this is for the guys guys and everyone else stayed in the trench and I've always thought this is exactly the experience.

Okay, he won in this area. One will grab a nice. Is that there's inherent danger and this criticism even this discussion right now, I'm sure the people right now firing up their web cams and writing blogs and tweeting and getting upset about it. It's any rational discussion of that particular subject. You could come get away, I mean I get criticism, from Christians. But it's not scary right. Yes, that is that that is a big difference. The timing isn't it. This is. This is something that is so important or better than a new ones that almost never gets out at him but of course we will just assume it. So we don't think it's worth saying, but we are aware that any religion or thought like this could be this dangerous at different phases. Yes, You know we might hinder wanted to be in Spain in certain points in the last millennium shore.

We might not have wanted to be a catholic to send two at certain points or protestant to send to others and so on and so forth. We all know that it's just that at the moment, that's pretty quiescent and and quiet and of it's less quiet here than it is in my country,. I can't the anglican church becoming militant about anything at any point soon, you do- have some angry types of Christian here than we have in my country. So it's easy for me to think there slightly less risky at some point if you future than than you might but but it's just we do recognize. This could happen elsewhere as well. It's just at the moment. It's it's! It's not the quakers that that they really don't send me a death threat from one year to the next right, the brother. Nice people there's an inherent danger of a retaliation from people who are more radical Christian.

If this continues and if you see it as more and more of more more attacks from people of muscle safe, yes, you could possibly see a retaliation from people, especially in this country like After nine eleven, there was an extreme amount of hate for Muslims irrational hate, mostly what we've done nothing wrong, directed at seeks. Yeah Well, there's a lot of that atta ignorance, they just didn't they did. I mean that was the most disturbing, because six pretty interesting people and the fact that they instantaneously, with no information at all, no understanding out of complete ignorance attack them. I I have a I like the second to know. And my glue minutes about some of the things we're going to go through in Britain and Europe in the coming years, but ivory

He had a reason to be even more gloomy about one aspect: we're dating to this, which is this. We had three big bad terrorist attacks. Last year in the UK, including the Manchester Arena Bomb, twenty two young people are blown up on a Monday night for going to hear Ariana Grande and after the third of those attacks, which was on London Bridge when three people who are actually known to authorities as they generally are slashed peoples throats on the street around to borrow market, as people were drinking and stabbed, people are shouting. This is for after the third of those attacks. It was fairly, oh god, this is really just going to keep happening. What are we gonna do about it and what can we do and off to the Manchester one? In particular, there was this kind of thing of F one sign of how often John Lennon's imagine there was of the viruses hit their neck. Don't look back in anger, and these seems as I

We meant to think anything other than that we weren't to be angry, and then, then just terrible thing happened from another direction outside Finsbury Park Mosque, which is a multiple of very troubled and bad history in London, a guy from Wales in a van drives into the crowds as the milling around outside the mosque kills. One man and engine is a number of others. That guy, by the way, just show how complex the this can get is. He was tried found guilty last month in the courts in the UK. He he had been. Who thought if I mentally deranged and had a history of mental illness, and that of is very often people do in these situations, but He he had watched the BBC drama called three girls, which is the first time the BBC had.

Address. The issue of the rover, Rossdale rape gangs have in the last decade in the U K, which is still sore. That's going home about fifteen hundred girls in one town alone were basically abused by gangs of muslim many box. Tommy man and it's a very, very ugly business, partly because it was so awful that nobody that the Navy, the state of the police level in the US wanted to look into it and they are now in the governing choirs said they they didn't get look. Contracts are white about being called racist and his love of the console. The press did a lot of not being interested in this as well eventually, after all these years, the BBC makes a documentary called three girls about three of the girls who suffered from these rape gangs, and then a man in Wales sees it and gets so in raised people say at the local pub. He was railing against the bloody Muslim,

and all this sort of thing, and then he hires a van and drives into a crowd of people outside a mosque. And you have this awful feeling that the BBC didn't want to deal with the issue that the program was about for years, because it was so awful and ugly and sounded like something made up by some kind of nativist racist. You know so it's had everything. I'm and then they do and then it turns out member the public sees it dries van into a crowd. Yeah, I mean you know this. This couldn't get more complex and with it- and I thought after that came Maybe maybe maybe the BBC were right? Maybe they shouldn't, maybe they should cover up the gang rape of hundred girls made public can't cope with it. Maybe they will get into vans now, as it happens, I know the british public I think fairly well, and I think that that guy in, where is the very very unusual figure, I don't think it's very common. I don't think everyone is going to

I don't think we're all like that wicked mad, but I don't know I mean I don't know for sure. If I don't know what the I don't know, what happened in this country invites other countries if there were three attacks like that in quick succession, I don't know, but this is. This is really it's just going to get complex is already complex and response to its complex to work. How do you? How do you, if you, if you are a journalist if you are a channel? How do you report on this? Do you think about the possibility of alerting someone, these actual real atrocities, it's going to force them to react on innocent people. That did nothing in this mask the fact that these people in this NASCAR somehow or another connected these people, that did this horrible crime just true the factor in the same religion. That's insane to

it's all insane I mean it seems to me the irony anyway through it is to say first I I I mean I don't I I read American Press what time I think that it's it's worse than the british press in in in that self appointed role of believing its task is to stand between the public and the fact you know and certainly get shape during the two see what they think the public can cope with, should know and then feed them that if they might press seems to me to be rife with that. That temptation as ours is, but it seems to be the only way around this- is to not not give into that and to try just to publish the facts when they happen, because it's just obviously three much what we always know in political scandal. What's worse, the cover up, it's always the cover up. Right and that that may be the case. Will this maybe maybe the the argument for just the papers explaining stuff? That's happened is maybe that's maybe that's all they can do, and

that one just say to them. It would be a lot worse if you bottle this up, because otherwise people will get the yeah the there is some conspiracy to cover over certain stories and and they'll be on to something in fact If you think about the millions of people that must have seen that the story on the rape of one thousand five hundred the fact that only one person responded that way. Right is pretty extraordinary in and of itself. Yes, yes, I I would have I would thought on some of this I mean you know. No again, I mean they're a lots of eggs, Amazon could use, but when something bad happens like the Manchester Arena Attack, I'm I'm amazed in a way that people Asos decent- I mean I'm say- please they are, but they we really. We don't go out. Looking for people to attack, you know the the the public setting a bridge. I can have the same. I think it's the same number of the public. We were not really Lynch mobs waiting to

he got going again, but the expectation that we are is there any possibility of creating us in such a way. It's only by treating us as if we can't deal with ugly things that go on that you could see the situations where we began to see the situation in which okay as well in that different way, yeah I mean I don't envy their position, especially trying to pick up the ball from here with all all the history and all the terrible things, especially in England, with so many attacks over such a relatively short period of time, where there was

a very small history of that before yeah. It seems like this immediate eruption of all these issues. Yes, I mean the country is in there somewhere. I write about my legs, but most is Franz where, yes, you, the book comes out in translation there in a couple months time frames to see what happens because fronts it head of. Even I mean we match on after that that eighteen months or so it had to his chest, I mean again with old so it disappears now every day it's got bad news of some kind, but you know to have a major western capital city with one hundred and thirty people killed. The evening, with multiple suicide bombings and people being gunned down from mopeds. Is that sitting outside a bar- and you know in another group of people going into a rock concerts and thank you know going through the disabled section, shooting up on one by one in the disabled, section gonna have an outstanding catch him in the lava treason,

shooting. In the I mean that happened in one night alone in Paris, but the prisons didn't become, you know they didn't become wicked terrible people in the, but they have. I think these. I think that the a lot of these terrible events that happened they actually, what happens, is they sink down to a lower level of our consciousness so that we What actually happens is we we we get over the immediate thing quite fast, but it's something that the phone shin level changes. I had a case. Nobody really wants to linger on, but there was one in November in the UK on Oxford Street where, because cause everyone does after these attacks, they always say you know we will not be changed. Every choice is sort of channel the Spirit of Churchill and all that sort of thing I'm such a heavy me, roar and and and and should the the the the facts are otherwise in in November on off the street, there was a. The

all we know is that there were two men who may have had some disagreement on the platform of a trek over tube the platform. Whatever happened, it was misunderstood by crowds and the developed into a stampede out of the chief. No all the way down Oxford Street people will locked and barricaded into the Big Department stores a pop cynical only mud as tweeted out to his million followers? You know shots are being fired, I'm in the back room the store hm of this over, and and other people claim that the truck had gone down Oxford. Down, they've seen bodies the police. That is a major terrorist event. They were on top of an The press were all know running the stories. Ten out, nothing happened, nothing and the next day two men handed themselves into a local police station, saying they thought they might have been responsible for it, but they were let off without any charge. When I'm saying is they thought they?

how to be responsible for because they've been an argument. They had a dog and maybe they they they went say we response will help think alike right. They also information and they were let go. But my point is is: is that we we can symbol, we say we will not be cowed and also actually be at the stage where, if you just hear a bang yeah, everyone is running you I don't want to be the last person to figure out what's going on so as soon as something you think is happening this day and age when there's just this more recent history of horrible things happening over and over again in Orlando yeah. Here I mean this is just so many of them will just instantaneously want to react and then, like the Vegas shooting one of the things was very confusing about the biggest Vegas shooting, as people would go into casinos, they would flee from the concert casinos and then talk about a shooter, and then people would say

an active shooter at Tropicana Tropicana, an app that always happens. There's always that that's right believe the meat there's always claim about the yes. She does it with a claim as something that turns out not everywhere they were. They were claiming your shooters all over the city, but there was no actual shooting in these. Other casinos was just reports of active shooters at that's, a and and and if you're interested. I I there is a fascinating thing about why this happens, and I read books some years ago, bloody Sunday, terrible event and nor non in nine. Thirty, two and one other thing. I went through all the testing of everyone who is it one of the most interesting things was the number of people whose memories, which is totally different from what we know, happened and yeah. One of the entries I came to is that there's a book a Harvard professor, but the clothes,

the sins of memory about this, but one of the things that clearly happens is off any very traumatic event over a terrible event. Web people affected in the situation of a war zone when they were just shopping will occur, is there a is that our memories immediately becomes even more adjustable and they are already, and the most obvious thing of suggestibility in these situations is that the situation was. Was worse around you and you came off better than you did and that's almost always the case, the the the the shot so quite a quite a bit They were very close. You for you, you have to the memory without knowing it will do it. A memory tells us we behave better than we did and that the threat was worse,

because this is. Are we one of our ways of coping? I think, but but it's a terrible thing of the. With the I mean, with these school shootings of things that are going on here I mean this is always a on things. Am I what she'll pull because the other day were you discussing this with the lights on the Florida and- and I think the you know, the sort of back pain away bafflement going on in the society? This is understandable. Yeah the I mean it's, the unimaginable horror of being involved in that situation. Your mind is just not prepared to cope. Without I mean, maybe if you are a soldier and you experience combat exactly and you know how to stay calm in the fire fight, because you've been in a bunch of them, but for the average person I mean it's one of the reasons why I witness testimony is one of the worst piece of evidence you could ever get including mean about it I basically everything about fistfights yeah. You know oh yeah. Now we have examples in our lives of seeing you know. Friends who've been through this

thing. We know that they've been through the same thing, and yet they have two totally different varieties of. Of course you know what happened. I mean that's, that's a real problem. But now you have this thing here where I mean on some ways, even worse than we do with of the search to notch it up for your own police. Song yeah or against the enemy yeah same thing with the twitter. The two appointments, the I mean this this obscene glee that goes on after any terrorist attack in Europe, but I think we'll see here's what the attempt to He did the call it for the other side, all for you, one night or whatever, I'm and to to to try the use terrible events as a way to justify whatever your in team is yes hi. I have I've. I find is amazing with a gun debate here. I would find it amazing coming from a different society on it, but the wages on watch it up for one side or the other in it, and you've got a real problem.

I've been watching a lot of it from the perspective of the gun owners and the NRA members and the the people that wanted. Defend the idea of having guns of even of arm. Teachers and you're, looking at their perspective on it, their perspective on it is all about their rights all about the constitution, all about the bill of rights. All about protecting second amendment, all about the sir ownership being taken away. Gun ownership under attack the NRA under attack they're coming after our guns- and this is constant battle of ideas. It's on Twitter not addressing the actual issue. I mean a lot. Sorry, no, it's it's! I mean watching this thing, arming teaches yeah, that's sign. I mean this is Samuel. Jackson had a great quote about it, and it's our he put it on Twitter, like some. I a mother fucker, never been in a gunfight the problems of arming a bunch of teachers,

Some some is that someone has been in a gun fight. Please tell mother, somebody said to somebody said anyone who thinks it's a good idea giving teachers guns is clearly never seen. One tried to use and I've. Projector yeah, there's, there's Samuel Jackson. Look that three hundred six thousand likes You know was ineffective tweet. This is the world we're living anything. That's big check the number. It was only yeah. You got three tweets Psicom patrol nobody likes you, I I I I thought that was a very one. A few years ago, in New York on fifth, when somebody shot the colleague and outside the office came back, is disgruntled worker shot the and locally. There was some policemen around the corner and they came out and started firing at the guy who done it. Ended up wounding about eleven pedestrian like would you would wouldn't be. Of course I mean I'm not saying by the way we have. We have our own problems, but I mean this is a big problem for American

kind of more guns. We have people, I mean I complete understand why the amendment exists, and I think it's a very good idea for the time- and I think it's a very understandable I did hold on to it now. But but why come people say? For instance, I mean we will have abstract ideas we have to hold on to, but we I will, in all countries, have like weird things that other people don't understand. I think it's all to have heard it for a constitutional monarch, for instance, of right now. It is with great way to put it and it's strange and if you starting from now. You might not do that, but but really with the gun ownership thing it is. We are willing to take bad things happen quite often because we want to hold onto The second amendment, well, the second ma'am been around forever. The bad things happening quite often is really from Columbine on when there was a few of

before there was the Austin Texas, but tower shootings, but it seems to me again, I would is such an obvious point, and I I don't sound. I guess I slowly Brit is saying something about. America is not what a welcome, but it seems obvious that you just you, could do a lot more damage with a semi automatic rifle. Then you can with a knife and most people. We see this in the terrorism as well with. There are really committed terrorists who don't commit acts of violence unless they can get hold of a of a the means to do it, because we often thing: why didn't you just like go out with a knife? Didn't some people do, but mostly what she want to go out in that way and what they see as being a blaze of glory right, so they like stopping them having the means of getting that very easily seems to me very obvious, but

it isn't to say that I mean, of course, I think you made the point the other day, and it's like saying. If you say everyone who has a gun is part of problems and obviously not because it's like saying everything he's got. A truck is a part of the problem, but but there is, there are obviously two things. One is the psychological and whatever the social issues, all the cords this to keep happening, and that that is obvious be very, very important to try to get to the root of, but you can get to the root of that or try to through that and also recognize that people having access to some of the weapons they have. Access to in this country must be a part of the problem. It has to be an they're. Also, the idea that you should just be able to go out and buy a gun without really understanding how gun works at all and Is it exactly how you do it? I got my first handgun license in nineteen. Ninety four: that's when I bought my first hand, gun- and I just bought a handgun gun, did a background check on me. That's it mean

to the range they showed me with, the safety is pointed this put the earphones on make sure you don't blow years out: bang, Bang, bang and then you leave with a gun. I mean once your background check, clearly find out you're, not a criminal there's not much to it. There's a there's, a giant problem with that, if you who won drive an automobile. You have to show that you understand the laws you have to understand. You have to sit with an expert was to sit there, a driving instructor. They have to go through it with you. They have to watch your movements they have to watch, take turns they have to woo. When you imagine that it would be a good idea to have some sort of a clinical evaluation of a person, that's going going to buy a gun, and another thing. There was an article recently that was saying country to popular belief: most school shootings are not committed by people who are mentally ill. Well, that's a stupid thing to say: you know why, because of your, you you're committing a school shooting your mentally ill period, then on top of that, what there is

ring. Conveniently in this is another headline thing cycle, yeah medications right. These people are almost entirely on some form of psychiatric medication, whether it is anti anxiety pills, whether it's into depressants with a deer they're all saying that correlation equals, because russian I'm not saying that, but to say that they're not this is just a bull. This is click bait headlines that they're mentally ill, a hundred percent one hundred percent of a mentally ill. This is a because I've come to aid in the. U K, Cool Peter Hitchens, who always makes a point after the islamist terrorist attacks in your, that is a large number of them, as well as other types of attack who seem to be on some kind of medication and my point always I'm very, very happy to have that conversation. I think we need to have that conversation and we also have to have the other parts of it as well. Yes, so it is your right

why we can't have all of this. It's the same thing that we were talking about earlier. It's these idea, sports, these wars, people don't want to give up their idea. They don't want to give up any ground whatsoever on their second amendment rights, whether it's owning a fifty caliber, fucking tank gun or whether it's having a gun for home safety or for hunting. They don't want to give up anything and they feel like that's a slippery slope. The people that I follow online that are tweeting about this on a regular basis, go to a lot of them like there may videos about it, Dana Lash and Colin. Actually, it's it's not it's cold, colion, Noir and new, he's very, very vocal about it. I'm reading all stuff, like all anyone's taking into account is that this idea that they're coming after your rights right and emphasizing the idea of a good person with a gun that can protect people in these terrible. So

engines which can happen as well, but we have to address that we're talking about? We have to address how the fuck do these crazy people get guns why? Why are so? Many people on mental health, medication, yeah, but that's a huge, huge, can't understand. We also have this: is wanting to have the conversation about it, but there's very little done on it. That's one thing I'm very struck by this. We we have in all our countries. I miss slipped into a very weird attitude towards this type of medication. Yes, very weird, very just very accepting of something Radically alters the way your mind works right and I don't know. Maybe it's maybe it's because of there's not an incentive drug companies off you don't have an incentive, quite the opposite, to look into it, but it's another example of the the the sense of a set of things we should be thinking about at the moment and looking at which we just don't why don't we could this sort of shut down because we shut it down ourselves

I I think it's just is such a range of issues. This is the case with, and it's always the same thing. It's always that if you address the question difficult is it maybe you are attacking an individual who might suffer from it who might be upset by us addressing the question, I mean I. I have a lot of suspicions about all sorts of things. I'm a very skeptical person, as it were about things that I'm told so I'd like to look into into think I'm amazed at the number of things in our societies that we just don't discuss and they're all the things that we ought to be discussing. Issues like mental health issues, issues that have to do with the social presumption that are going on left, right and center at the moment, where you're not meant to discuss things that have preventing us very, very interesting and very important, and I just see it everywhere.

This might buy a says the site strange segue to make, but there was a fascinating one in in person a couple days ago. A slight light is such a, but that was not our side, but I'm the there's, the diver. In the? U K Cool Tom Daley him IDA screen right from Hollywood, Kel Dustin, Lance Black and it was announced a couple weeks ago on Valentine's day that they were having a baby and it was a photograph of them holding a scan they sent out on the twitter, the two men who married, who have ultrasounds and all the papers and the the evidence supporting Dustin and Tom. Having a baby- and I mean- I'm gay and I'm, I don't think I'm homophobic. But I look this other thing. How

someone else involved. I mean you know, there's a joke: yeah gaze, you gotta come have till doesn't mean we can't keep trying, but the actress Lotus has over nothing in the articles about this tells me anything. I would like to know like I No, they didn't just have a roll around and woke up in the morning and one of them was preggers. I know that and and know that there has to be a woman involved at some point. We know this, but we are meant to just like adapt. Ok, great. And it's almost as if it set up so that somebody says, wait a woman in the uterus is on, but so that then everything is far bigger, right, yeah everything we've got and and of course somebody did really is that more somebody from the daily mail wrote a call

and say come on two dads: isn't the new normal sort of thing? And of course, then everyone piled in on that and all the all these advertisers withdrew their advertising really. But this was just on this was literally literally until the day before yesterday, it was possible to say I don't think two guys can just have sex and make a tiled literally. That was ok until the day before yesterday and it's not okay today. So what will not be okay tomorrow? And I just think I think I about it and uh, and maybe a couple other people ended up doing it too. But I think that's real interesting, like a lot of those others. I think it's really interesting about this, that you are the things that seem very obvious to us all. The things you're not meant to write about almost as if they like look booby traps waiting to go off, and I just think why don't more people pile on in because we could have a heck of a time and we

mindless self something for people want to pile it on anything- revolve involving gender or sexuality. It is too scary it's a land mine field they just they just and walk in the specially, as you said earlier, people with regular jobs yeah if you get called out for being a racist or a home, yeah old or anything along those lines, you're doomed to show it's it. But in that case anyone who does have a voice uh, the writer speaker, whatever broadcaster, I think, has a disproportionate duty to do so right to do so, I mean there's no point in just repeating those new lies, the disproportionate duty to try to break them down. I come one of my favorite quotes that were made sure man can. He says you know that history was always progressed by jolly fellows heaving dead cats into sanctuaries. I'm going roistering down the byways of the world,

and I just I. I wish that there were more dead cat heavers because he's even though there's a bad job, you can living sometimes living, and it's one of the only things worth doing. If we're all going to be told, lies and expected to go along with them, whether it's about terra, is a more or gay parenting or mental health or anything else, whole set of them is really target rich environment. It, it is- and I think there's more people doing that now than ever before, but it's more people like you and I who can kind of get away with it yeah I what why Do you think you get away with it bother me, you can take me seriously. I'm uh cage fighting commentator in a dirty comedian right. Nobody is listening to me and taking me seriously in that regard

book sort of it's it's our. I just. First of all, I'm a kind person. I think that helps like I'm not a mean person when I'm saying these things, I'm saying these things from I'm going. What what the fuck is this like, who is one that I thought was really fascinating, and this is one of the great example of how how strange we get on subjects Caitlyn Jenner when Caitlyn Jenner transitioned. That was the primary thing that people talk about. Oh my god, she's a woman. Now and it was right after she had been, spacing out behind the wheel slammed into a woman, an pushed her into traffic in a head on collision in the woman died, and that was almost just completely forgot completely forgot. Not only that she, doesn't believe in gay marriage right like your you have the wrong spokesperson. I mean

you could not have a more wrong spokesperson, but yet ES and and glamour woman of the year and these all these different things and athlete of the year is wearing dresses and fabulous and glam. And let's get your your chin shaved down right because that's who you really are? We really are not this person there. Now you gotta, you gotta, show your chin down. It's it's, it's a big, a guess, but the thing is it about the the almost as if you're being dead. Yes, you bear to discuss it. I said this is SAM Harris. I got him into trouble just on his poke us by. Saying this and he didn't attack me apparently after he got a whole load of transphobe accusations. Because of me saying something, but I said to him, I thought was happening was that We were being asked not only to agree that Caitlin Bruce Jenner become Caitlyn Jenner, Caitlyn Jenner was a woman, but that, but that you had to find her attractive. Yes, you have to say she's beautiful in your piece of Shag, Caitlyn Jenner. You would just like a knife

there is a there is on the just. There was one the other week and he's a bit light that they gave her enemies. I think I dare you yeah you just try right tending, but pending that Tom and dusting can't happen baby. It's the same with that little longer there is a boy in Britain who was, I kind of whether he wanted to turn up school in address, so he's like nine years old, and there was a I kind of the school said yes or no. It was a big thing. And it can I way in on the behalf of the nine year old Trans kid I I I've known lots of questions to us that yeah and- and Then it became the the the nine year old kid was a was, was a fat became a model for a fashion shoot, and then it's like find the nine year old boy who said he's a girl, attractive and say it's beautiful, I like how much more do you want to push people like so there were awarding

isn't she lovely? What are you doing to us. What are you trying to make us agree to what what's the cause of all? This Have you, you must have been thinking about this like what this is, this bizarre, illogical conversation that falls into these very convenient, well cut, grooves that you're really not allowed to slide the ideas out of it what's causing this? I think so many things are one is one. Is that it's possible? This is what happens when the economics goes wrong. I've got a feeling. The economics I mean is that if people if people aren't seeing lightweight it increases in their living sensing, I mean my generation. I know I'm thirty, eight just above this generation

the generation ever so slightly below me is becoming aware that it won't get on the property ladder at all. Maybe property ladder, meaning owning a home, owning a home, the things that generation, not easily by enemies wasn't easy for, but that that somehow there going to have it harder than their parents generation or might know to enjoy the living standards of their parents' generation enjoyed, might be so Definitely Western Europe coming home, it might be occuring to them. What do you do in those such situations? You've got to have other things to get worth from if, for instance, you're not going to own a home until you're forty and that point. If your woman, like your career, you need to have children, but you can't afford to take the time off work and you might not be able to start a farm

and then you're trying to start a family in your 40s and it's harder very hard and a whole set of other things like that. That are definitely delayed. But in now I think that it's possible, I'm not saying certain it's possible, it seems, to leave. That generation might discover new gods and might want to enforce the new rules just as avidly as the old gods. And- and there is an element of that going, can't understand why? Otherwise, every time I talk about the things we've talked out there, there would just continuously be this very angry reaction, not uh! That's interesting! I never thought that. I think but you know it's quite hard to shock me or to upset me, you know that's interesting. You know. Why do you think that, so why do I always get this site? We've got to stop him

other than these are new commandments that we're breaking and white. So I mean they're, all sort of connected. Aren't they these things that they're all attempts to, but all attempts to something like purity which disturbs Maine, let's sort of if you could just get everything in a row. You know even hear that things get in your lane yeah. I hate the people who say that dad get in your lane or what you think you are. You know. What's my line, I think I've said it a few times, but I mean I'm sorry, but but only people that need to stay in their lane New York, I'm different knew you times yes, I was really on the plane over ok. Now, I'm reading your taxes on the paint over and and there's a there's, a question as a the net agony onto it. We call it what you will self help, whatever advice, column Mmhm, this woman says she was on the on the train a couple days ago

and there was a man who came in with his girlfriend. He was being really abusive to her and it just kept happening and he was really it was kinda nasty brawl in violent situation, she doesn't know what to do, other the they will move away and she, of course you can see. What's coming the combination of it is. She says she gets off the train. She, but she should have said something, but she said conscious of her white edge and these people were people of color, and I am reading this, I'm thinking what you now now. If you saw a man of different skin pigmentation from you, abusing a woman of different skin pigmentation from you. The right thing is not to defend the woman. That seems like a just a real justification for being a coward, yes but but I found the advice, was you know you did sort of the right thing? Maybe you should have spoken to an official or something, but there was no kind of so stuff all this weird get in your lane. No,

you know no use your village, you know way up your provision and that's a good way to make society have a nervous breakdown is way up your privilege in s would score cards. I mean my god I it, but, but all of these things seem to it's almost as if people think, if we get the the the seems correct, every things will be sorted and here's the problem is that fair list of all the means of doing this is just hideous, I'm hideous, they accentuate racial difference. They accentuate sexual and gender differences, accentuate everything else. I the destination, is horrible. It it's not the Nirvana. They think that they are creating. So This is a really good moment to try to look at some of this and to talk about it to think about is widely and as freely as we can and yet and yet the effort is to do the opposite.

I think you're on to something with the idea that this radical, progressive, very restrictive line of communication ideology that we're experiencing we're talking about is coming from a lot of people that don't have a religion. Yes there. Theists or at the very least, agnostics modern progress. It is very rarely religious, yes and this man for somebody, who's unbelief, believe myself. This is a painful thing to look at, but again we have to think about it, but that is in that an interesting thing as well, because you think of yourself as being on a team with these other atheists or agnostics, the I did, but you do, but I'm saying as a an atheist yourself, you have to look at it that way, you've already lump yourself in with them. Yes, I I I had a so so speaking to camps in the US for a while ago- and I spoke to a guy who's really really have a student. Who is a free thinker? He's he said the the officer talking, he said you know you have some hideous six

instead of local freethinkers society. You know everyone is like getting your lane and he was like. I thought that being among free thinkers like the rest will be good. I know, know, know, know they're freethinkers turn out to be just as able to be blindfolded. If you know All of the sudden things down when you imagine this golf course, self proclaimed free thinkers would be even more inclined to adopt a rigid ideology. There are proclaiming themselves to be a free thinker and, and it's possible- this comes in, You know the the idea, the old check out senses. You know the the the the sensa knows, everything with the people of Bailey. Into- and I spoke once the band who is on the British Board of film classification. He said all day watching really hardcore pornography deciding what could be legalized and all that. So thank you. You must have a dog view of humanity,

it's just. This wasn't just a Scally's interpretation of pornography. I don't know how to describe it, but I'll know it. When I see it right exactly, why are you a judge and it may be it, but it may be that these people it with that, but the a lot of conservatives have this thing, but the one becomes rigid about something because you've seen into the abyss, because you don't know you might and behave in a certain very terrible way, and so you you you want to pull back from that chaos. You would pull other people back as well seems to me the A lot of so called Freethinker self designated free fingers may well have these glimpses and may well thing. I don't know what's holding this together and therefore might precisely for that reason be disproportionately rigid on almost any new ideology that came along get in lane yeah yeah.

I like this idea. This is almost like a substitution for religion, it's almost like there's an in current need that we have because human beings have operated under these pad it's for so long. We clearly have this need yeah. It would be upset to pretend we didn't Libya yeah. So it's it's interesting because the more like we found in ways to market one of the ways to market and it I think that that's important and that mockery, although it seems trivial what it does do is let people know how ridiculous other people feel those ideas are and then it makes some re examine themselves 'cause. They don't like being mocked term social justice warriors wonderful. For that, yes, just makes you look like such a fool. You know the amount will of Social Justice warrior yeah. You know

so it's like that. I was a colleague of mine, Spectator in London called ROD Little RD a few years ago, any any man who says he's a feminist clearly, just as seeking a shag for sure for sure. Well I mean it's one. Thing to want equality, but to proudly state that you're, a feminist is it's almost. I have joked around about I see what you're doing you know run fast. You can pick things up. There was still like to again somebody said: is I fought the invasion? They said the the the the this guy themselves as an antiracist party and comedian, who said it actually makes you think they might be racist. It be like saying your auntie Peter fill your children agency. You think who is the comedian that said that doesn't brilliant, that's hilarious! That's so true! It's so true. It's virtue, signaling to the highest degree. It's like here, you're, pulling up your flag moral superiority

standing on your high ground, but it is it is. It also means a great deal to to to these people but chow, but then the question is just how to how to invite them. Not to think like that, I think mockery, my soccer is one of the best ways because it just let's them know that other people think is preposterous. So it's not achieving the desired result, the desired. How old is look at this amazing person is incredible, progressive ways of thinking not make this transparent, fuck is just trying to get laid. You know, that's how a lot of us see it. I don't see that we see it that way in some of them. I mean it's in a lot of ways. A lot of our behavior is it's experimental.

No, I mean people are experimenting with various different ways of gaining the social preference points. Well, this is this is why I would say, even if, if, if alarm believers, there are things they can learn from religion and from tradition and I've always thought the v m. I've always thought, as one central inside of you dare Christian room tradition, which I wish that the social Justice wars bore in mind, and that is that's the garden of Eden and and and the the the what will come to collect crooked timber of humanity just just to recognize the central truth, which is in that tradition and another. Is that the way it would not born in this situation of research area and perfection, goodness a quite quite otherwise we are. We are this very, very contorted beating,

which is which is capable of incredible greatness and beauty, and kindness and forgiveness, and also capable of their opposites, and that's that it's not it's not that you are one and other people or the other, but uh the all of us all of us, both all the time and so there never is a victory in the never is a win other than trying to deal with and restrain your own worst impulses in the life. You have n honestly express all the issues that arrive while you're trying to do that, absolutely and and and trying to tell the truth where you see it and and giving voice to it, and trying to I mean

this is just is just seems so clear to me that that, if people, if people could realize, is the central problem of the thing that you and I and I and others old faces the the desire to claim that the put that somebody disagrees on issue isn't just of a disagreeing mind body

and that it in any. You know we we have a in Britain, we all racks at the moment, still by eighteen months after a single vote on a single matter of governments will still wracked by really unpleasant politics from Brexit yeah, and I suspect it's, it's not a guy hate, the overlap of the two, but it's probably something like the Trump events here. But again and again you come back the same thing, which is just instead of thinking. One side is in its highly right. The other title isn't so you give up on objective fact renting out, but just consider that your opponent might be approaching this with an honest motive. I might have honest reasons for disagreeing with you and in

in the absence of that and with media just endlessly feeding us whatever it is. We know our own side happens to think in the absence of that, I just see our trenches in both our countries just being dug deeper and deeper until until there's just no hope of being able to even shout over the top and be heard, and why then you get to that stage. If, if as I say, you recognize that it's it's, it's not a constant fight against, not cities, and you know I mean it it it's by the way. It'll save. Never to forget that the didn't seem like the to a lot of people when the were being, pop says, but it's just it's just not as easy as that. No it's not but it's it's an easy way to demonize the other side.

Yes, an easy way to prop up your side. It's it's a cheap trick. It is, but can it where we started what, if the cheap trick ends up having some terrible consequence, mmhm of making all of our defenses go down in a if a for SAM Harris is not seen that with the both of you, I mean what we started: the conversation off with that community guidelines strike like good Lord. This is this really is very, very strange time very strange always was Douglas Thank you very much. I really really enjoyed this conversation. I really appreciate it and your book that is out now is death of Europe. It's called immigration, identity, Islam and it's available. If you can find any book. Shops left this on gotta get it online. You can get it online as well. There's a few Barnes and nobles out there. Alright. Thank you Douglas.

Very lazy. Gentlemen, great pleasure. Thank you my pleasure. Thank you into the podcast and thank you to our sponsors. Thank you. Square cash go to the square cash app. You can download it for free at the app store or Google play use the promo code, Joe Rogan, all one word and you will get five dollars and five dollars will go to Justin Wren's fight for the forgotten charity. So that's the square cash app available for free on the app store or Google play and then use the promo code, Joe Rogan. All one word: thank you also to square space, two squares. What the fuck dude? What's roll the squares? Hey man! I just read this shit, but I'm telling you if you need a website square, space is the way to go use square cash for website this shit, ain't gonna work you want to square space is an amazing website.

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tomorrow, Kyle Kulinski's on the podcast Rory Albanese is, on the podcast on Wednesday got a lot of happening. I'm excited so everybody for Tunein and uh. We'll see you soon. Bye, bye,