Zach Bitter is an endurance athlete, ultramarathon runner and coach. He holds the current American 100-mile record at 11:40:55.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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right now and you can download it for free, crushing the five barriers to growthagainnetsuite dot com, Slash Rogan Da Da Da and that's it for the ads. People complain about ads. I could shove them in the middle somewhere. Sometimes I you can go a little too long. I get it, but are rambling type, man full full full full full. My guests today, though, is not a rambler. This mother, Fockers Runner My guest today is Zach bitter, and he's a fucking beast this guys, an animal I mean. He ran and we found this out like deep in the podcast. He ran a hundred miles by doing a seven minute mile,
no seven minutes in one second per mile for one hundred miles just holyshit that hurts my head. He the US one hundred mile record and he's doing all this, which is interesting on a low carb diet? But not that simple? It's not that simple, it's very complicated and he delves into the science of adjusting. Manipulating his diet and really interesting, I'm fascinated by these kind of people. These ultramarathon psychos. And this guy is one of the elite. So please give it up for Zach bitter again experience trying my day, Joe Rogan, podcast by night and we're off. What's up brother, how are you good good thanks for having beyond my pleasure nice to meet you man. You know it's funny that you just brought up doctor
here, you know we were saying that you download the podcasts you're saying I gotta get Guy on yeah yeah. It was funny I ate. I was it auto downloads and that one popped up- and I remember thinking about a week before that is like what, when I, when we first schedule this one as a guy, I told you about today was one of the kind of first guys. I They followed when I kind of dove into the high fat approach to to nutrition, so yeah he's a fascinating guy was great. Listen. I had to listen to it like twice Yeah he's a weird guy he's, one of those guys. We did talk to him and you think. Oh, this is a good, normal, really nice guy and then, as you start getting into the medical aspect of things? Go: ok, you're, fucking, genius, yeah he's tricks you yeah. I remember one of the first things he ever said that really kind of resonated with me was. I think someone was asking him about like what the facts are, where the ketogenic in terms of like micronutrients and what maybe he'd be missing, based on kind of like that normal profile of what you're supposed to get in and he was just like you know it's interesting 'cause most of those stuff.
He's in recommendations are based off of basically a standard America diet or a higher carb diet, so he's like well, you might not need the same. We need to do more and he's always looking to kind of push the envelope a bit so cool guest for sure yeah, and you know I'm fascinated by you and I'm fascinated by anybody who does the kind of ship that you do? I mean it. Please explain: people all the different uh, marathons you've done in like what you've accomplished, yeah, you know, It's it's interesting because, like I still kind of see myself as a pretty average runner because, like I'm I competed in high school and made state cross country and state track, and that kind of thing for a small school and then I went to a small division. Three school and was you know pretty much average amount of real good program, the fifty level, and I always just did kind of like running, here, though, so like once I got done with college, and decided. Well, let's, let's see, what's
bring some of those traditional like collegiate races of like 5k to ten kilometers. And I started kind of just dabbling that stuff and then in twenty ten. I think I actually did my first ultramarathon. You know partly because, I was just like looking around and it turned out to be one in the state. I was living in Wisconsin at the time and there is one that was kind of in my neck of the woods and I actually I just decided to go back to grad school in that one had a thousand dollar prize purse on it. I was like you know what, if I, if I can win, that thousand bucks go a long way during grad school, so We did that one and I ended up winning it and it it definitely hooked me. It was like the type like I want to do more of these, and two thousand and eleven I kind of jumped all in at the end of the year and did three hundred and fifty milers, and I think it was about. A nine week time frame and that's so crazy! Yeah! I mean it crazier. There's there's some freaks out there. There's guys will do like a couple in a weekend and stuff like that. So
I mean it's, it never ends, but yeah. It was one of those things where, after that I was totally hooked. So what is it that got you hooked up? It had to be partly just a little bit of success. You know I wasn't necessarily used to winning. So, like I mean I've had good races in good times relative to what you probably see like average person, but you know when I went to like a competitive, 5k, competitive marathon, or something like that. You know, wasn't gonna win unless it was kind of a local race, so kind of finding. You know it's like anything. I guess you kind of gravitate to what you feel you're good at and then that kind of piqued. Your interest on that was of it. The other part was just stop. I really enjoyed doing the long run like you when you break up kind of like a training week, you have like a variety of different things. You've got like kind of base level runs. You've got specific workouts for the distance and then most training programs, I have a long run once a week, and that was the one that was always my favorite, so rap
My head around doing a bunch of those a week instead of just one was, was really a kind of feeling to me and when you're putting that much I'm into whatever training for its. I think important to enjoy it so be able to kind of enjoy the training process a lot, that was really appealing to me, and then it's just the variables that, when you're out there for that long, there's so many variables to consider- and it's like it's a blast for me to kind of like work those plan for those and then adjusted them on the fly when you're out there, and you know things inevitably go wrong or things pop up that you didn't expect. So it's it's. It's just it's it's kind of hard to explain, but it It's it's weird. One of the things in ultra marathon running at people always say is like they'll, have a race and you have a bad race say: I'm never doing these again and then the next day they on on the internet, looking for another race. So it's this weird thing about it that you don't really know until you do it, but it sucks you in does the case. Will
be able to talk about things that are like that they have to suffer through. You know. I've heard that when guys talk about like those extreme hikes, you know when they you know like they do that. You know that one that goes Georgia, all the way to Maine. Saying what do they call the Appalachian trail yeah? Did they say I I can do that again and it's like ok. What other hikes can I go? It's just once the pain, the physical pain dies down, there's something about that challenge, that it's in people like you and people that are into these really long, distance things like there's something about distance there's something about like, like you were saying, like you weren't there runner in high school or college right, but there's something about the mind of an ultra marathoner. It's a different mind: the person, the type of person that can run huh miles two hundred miles, two hundred and thirty eight miles those type of different people and there's like there's a strength of mental state.
The ability to just keep going on and on and on that, I'm absolutely fascinated with, yeah. You know it is interesting too, because it's in the sports grown a bit quite a bit in the last decade or so, but it's still very much kind of a niche group in and we kind of hang out in that group. He starts kind of normalize it a little bit. I think so. Then you start thinking like one hundred miles. It's just what we do and then You know you actually try to like separate yourself from the fact that you've done a few of those are separate yourself from the fact that you then hanging out with other people are doing it and you realize oh, this is actually kind of a weird thing to kind of do as a human nowadays bucket very weird how many of these things? If you want, I don't know how many I have one it's. I think I've done just shy of fifty the total now and everything from fifty kilometers the furthest. I've done is two hundred kilometers, which is about one hundred and twenty five miles an yeah. I to look to see how many have one it's it's it's. It's really goofy 'cause when you start getting into the longer stuff, like one hundred
files and beyond you start at least in training program. You start to kind of pick smaller races, you, just training runs some of it. I think it's just because for me, if I'm going to go out and do like a thirty, file or forty mile training run, or something like that. It's kind of tedious to do that by yourself. And then plan all the logistics of it. So if there is a based nearby and that's not too hard to get to it's easiest to sign up for that. Go and do that so some of those you know all win if they're, if they're small, not, even though I'm not necessarily trying to go for forward, go all out so to speak, because I'm hoping to recover kind of in and get back into train, So you pace yourself and one of these local races, maybe yeah. You know the way I describe it is, and this is this a real hard thing for a lot of people to do. I think it's it's like you go in into a race saying this is going to, be a moderately difficult, long run. So maybe a little faster than what I would do if I was just going to do it by myself like unsupported that sort of thing
then I was tell myself. Eighty percent is the hardest. You can go if you want to be able to come back and start training on time to meet the actual goal or the a race on. So when I do those it's like it's one of those things where, like you know, who knows, someone might show up, that's that slick as fast as you are maybe a little slower than your normal and if they're deciding to just hammering that did, he might beat you and you got to be okay with that. This is the competitive party, you flare up there well yeah, it does and that's the hardest part and that's, I think, the reason why some people won't do that approach and they're. Certainly, people who just stay stay away from races unless it's there a race and they just say I'm. If I'm going to do a long run I'll, do it on my own and end in U do that or you know- certainly I'm sure folks to do it, and then they get caught up in end up, leaving there a race out on on the B race. I cast so to speak. So yeah, it's it's interesting. It's a it's kind of a a sport that I think is still a lot to learn, which I think is actually the case for all
out things that you know even things that are well established to you know, there's always then, to learn new things to pick up on. Well, it's those things right wing once once someone runs a hundred miles and then a bunch of other people start doing it. Like you said it, it almost becomes normalized and then people start to try to push that boundary now I've been hearing talk about other woman Candace, who runs the MOAB two hundred and forty yeah they're talking about doing a five hundred I heard that I was like you're out of your fucking mind, people are going to die maybe that'll, be normal in five years- will get used to like four five day, races yeah. So it's really fast, and it took me a couple of years to do this before I got into the sport. But once is it for a couple of years. I kind of did a little a little research and see like what the deal was with on some of the stuff in the the funny thing is like that type of a distance isn't even on heard of they. Actually there for with the book is
called, but they actually had in Madison Square Garden. They used to host a six day event where guys and gals I'm not sure if gals were doing it back then, but God, for sure, we're going there and seeing how far they could run in six days. And uh. I don't know crazy and I think, if I remember right, they would actually the people were betting on him that way and so they'd fill it up like people would come and watch the spectacle, but it was in the late 1800s I think, is when they started it. I'm not sure. No here it is six day cycling the six day grind it mask herb garden. Oh wow, look at this mess with some crazy person decided to leave the bike at home. I guess this is super old, we're looking at this on Youtube folks, it's six day, cycling, the six day grind at Madison Square Garden and so That's just a track, and these people are. This is old Timy share, this looks like the 30s right that guy just went down and so they're they're just riding their bike.
For six days oshit when they wipe out, oh, my god, they probably terrible brakes back then right yeah. That was their feet to probably right or the railing yeah. Yes. This is some endurance sports like this or nothing new. It's actually fascinating when you kind of look into it, 'cause nowadays in the United States. The trail running scene is definitely way bigger than like the road running, or certainly the track the tracks. But that wasn't always the case. If you look back and like the seventies and eighties, there was a pretty big surge in ultra marathon running for flat, fast stuff. That's where we see a lot of the the records coming from so that's like a track, and you run as far and long as you can on a track like track or a road or flat RD. I had goggins on David Garcia and he was talking about the first time he did. One was on a track. In circles on track, which is almost how to be more taxing for your mind, 'cause you're, just seeing the same shit over and over and over again yeah. It's really fascinating, because I've done
Both I've done one hundred miles on the trail, and I've done one hundred miles on a four hundred meter track and the fascinating thing. It is like what you said: it's almost a different event where mentally you're doing you can on that track to kind of separate yourself from the actual environment, envision yourself being somewhere else. You know looking forward to little things to kind of, not necessarily be thinking too far in advance I can get overwhelming, whereas when I'm, the trails, it's like you're using a pretty first a beautiful area and you can kind of just sit. Take it as it comes, it's all cool. Now I get to see that or this is in the area. Are I like this section and you look? You look forward to that kind of diversity wears on the track. It's you see. It once and you've seen it every time, and then it just kind of beat you up mentally from that side of things. But then you know there's other things about that too, that that help out like logistically when you're on a track.
Four meters, you bring out one person, you put everything you may possibly want on a little table, and if I want something I say hey, can I get that for meters later? I have it and even if we mess it up I'll, get it four hundred years after that, so yeah, The trails it depends, they've gotten a lot better with aid stations as the sports grown, but, like you Ask your aid station or if you get caught up in the moment and just blow through it and don't take care of yourself. You might have to suffer for an hour plus before you get help again. So that's where it kind of gets a little different. I think logistically, when you're on trails versus versus on the road and but but yeah. It's it's kind of a different thing. The track is interesting too, in the sense that you're, essentially making that same exact, most exact motion the whole way so, like Certain areas of your body that fatigue and they don't break time. The turn in just running flat, running
like you're, going to kind of localize some of the way you stimulate your muscles or your gate is going to be pretty similar throughout when you're on the trails like you might be going on a slight incline, a steep incline slight decline, a little bit flat I'm, rolling all kinds of things in between and then trails can be kind of. Undulating you're, just kind of moving all that forces around your legs a little more than you would be when you're running on a flat surface, so you know it's one of the things that I always tell like my coaching clients, and myself when I'm planning for something is like. If you really wanna meet you full potential, like specificity is king. You need to be on that environment in the environment, you're going to race on a really get your body used to kind of that type of a move motion. That makes it a little more interesting when you're doing a track races. That means some kind of long track so kind of balancing doing just enough to get ready for it and not doing too much so that when you get to the racer like screw, this I've done too much of this already I want to see another loop um, that's kind of an interesting concept. It's interesting to me too,
that you're planning to run one hundred miles like what you're saying about running these shorter races as a training run, which makes sense because how else are going to prepare for one hundred miles like if you just decided to just go out and run one hundred miles, you'd have to like map it out like how far is one hundred miles. Where am I going to park like where I'm going to put water and yeah People also kind of get like forget about the aspect, just all the stuff surrounding the race that you can kind of fine tune when you're doing a race as kind of training run where, like you know, usually you're going to travel little bit for stuff, like this, so you're, probably going to in hotel the night before you're going to have to wake up early in the morning after they get your your gear ready, and so it's kind of like going through that process of you're going to do on race day. So then, when your big various comes up, you're like ok, I've done this three or four times in the last six months. So I know what I'm doing now
what's different between you and a lot of guys- and this is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you about this- is that you are on a fat burning diet, you're, essentially you're on a ketogenic diet and running these races yeah. It's Little interesting, because the way I kind of at least the way I came into like. I explored the ketogenic diet, mainly because I started noticing Saddam pull. This thing off. Sorry no worries about yeah yeah, so I started kind of exploring the ketogenic diet back in late two thousand and eleven, because I started noticing some goofy. Is going on with my body from from the from the high level of training and then and then the racing in on those right around at same time. I did those three hundred and fifty milers and I notice it. I would wake up. Three or four times at night and then like. I have to pee all the time at night and I have like swelling in my ankles and stuff a lot I'll. Just like huge ugly swings throughout the day. Like I would yeah I was. I was a teacher at the time.
So I remember thinking like everyday at like one or two hundred o'clock I could have laid down and take a nap on Spotify had the opportunity to so it was just like a lot of weird things that I thought was pretty abnormal for, twenty five year old male at the time and so it was kind of becoming clear to me that what I was doing was either unsustainable or the way I was doing. It was unsustainable and This really intrigued by the sport- and I didn't really want not necessarily back off of that, if I didn't have to so that's when I kind of start to explore nutrition and diet, and things like that and I was very much following what I would consider it a healthy diet before that at the time it was it was high carbohydrate, but it was like what you would you know, think of as a healthy, high, carb, ride your diet with a normal meal. You know I wake up. I did go for a run and then have like some oatmeal raisins, maybe some fruit or something like that, some eggs or something with
with that in the morning, so not junk food, so it was clean, is like clean. Like you know, you know what you see, they say like get your whole grains fruits, vegetables. That sort of thing I definitely is heavily on that and made sure I wasn't eating junk junk food. I wasn't going through fast food restaurants or eating Oreos and bonbons, and that sort of thing so so it was kind of interesting to me to think like had. I didn't really realize that it was necessarily the nutritional side of things, it like it wasn't. It wasn't like a big slap in the face in the sense that I just got it cut out the junk 'cause like according to most people, I wasn't eating junk. I was eating really good food So you know that's when I kind of got introduced to some folks, like Dr Doctor Volicon Doctor Finney, who are kind of, I guess I guess they are pioneers like the this latest wave of kind of the high fat approach and so they were. I started reading their books listening to podcasts and things like that and
it you know is interesting site. I was. I was training up to twenty hours a week at the time, and you know I started kind of thinking like how much time I'm going to invest in in just running. How can I kind of kill two birds with one stone and and that's kind of what I discovered podcasts and thought this is sweet. I can learn something and train at the same time and so just kind of like went all in on listening to a bunch of you know, podcasts and stuff like that, and as you and your previous guests Ben Greenfield is one of the first podcast I really kind of did a deep dive into and he was always kind of like rolling out stuff. That was like. Kind of new or cutting edge, so he def I had a lot of information there and I was mania, don't take
advice on what he does with his deck stem cell was Dick and yeah he's turning itself into a guinea pig, but this is an odd duck, but yeah he definitely had a lot of info from guys, like DR opinion, Doctor Bolick and in I'm I was lucky to meet those guys to on a couple occasions and with a doctor volokh I've done some podcast with them and certainly into like exchanged, emails and stuff. When I've had questions, and so I kind of just the tested it out, you know I was like, what's the worst it happened, I can just. I can always go back in all right, not like. I have to stick to this for the rest of my life. It's not something. You're issues were swelling and energy and and how wide your true that to die like what was making you think those who died. That was doing that too. Yes, you know, I wasn't sure I thought I thought for sure that something I was doing was wrong and get your blood. Worked on check your hormone levels. All that stuff yeah I didn't have probably as much blood work done as I would have liked to to really like look at stuff,
and and see like the way I look at blood work is, if you're doing it regularly, often enough, when not changing things that we're going to see the most going to see, changes versus just like, oh, I'm chronically low, sorry I'm always low in this, but it doesn't seem to be an issue. But you know there was no big red flags on my blood work, Nothing. That would have said said, like thyroid disease right. Yes, nothing, nothing quite that wrong, and you know it wasn't like the wheels were coming off at that point. There were these verse. Small things that I kind of associated like nagging things they're like things I could get through, but ideal, so you know I'm kind of curious person like me, life, so I was I'm just looking to kind of optimize. I guess more lesson in and I know if it was gonna work. Idive was, was by that I find out it wasn't and then I would have to stop running as much an the time I was like that doesn't sound like what I want to do so
this is just something I decided to explore first and an- and it's really goofy because like certainly evolved and kind of how I use it from that. When I first started when I, when I first started, I went like really you kind of really low carb like that clinical key to voices level where you read about where they're like fifty grams of carbohydrates or less- and I did that for about. I think it was like four to six, x and I didn't have as hard of a time as what I think I've I've I've seen some people have with that. You know you have people talking about everything from what the key off twenty two just like feeling really lethargic for awhile before that kind of metabolic switch, flips but I kind of noticed was I felt, really good doing like really like low level type mundane tasks just like day to day work and things like that. Like, maybe every second or third day I go for a run and just feel awful, and I kind of knew enough about it that I thought. Ok, let's give this solid four weeks before I make
judgments on whether that's going to be something that sticks around or not. And you know after about that point. My levels, kind of normalized, and then you know I was so at that point I was like excited. I was like this is sweet, I'm at and what I should have mentioned to like. During that process. I started sleeping through the night again, which was like kind really an eye opening thing for me- is usually like I'd wake up at least three times. What do you attribute that to you know? I don't know for sure, but it could be anything from just the amount of stress I was causing on my body from kind of two angles from the training plus like you know like I don't want to demonize carbohydrates, 'cause. I think they have a place. I think there are a great tool I just think like The question everyone should ask is: at what level do they become kind of? margin of diminishing returns for you and you know what I think was like happening is that you know I was reaching past that margin. Mission returns Man
is causing more stress than what my body was was la tolerate, and that was causing quarters will spikes or something like that. That was waking me up at night, but you know, It was really like it all. I know is the only thing at that time. I changed is my diet and we should probably point out that this is not universal, that This diet is going to affect them differently sure, fine with carbohydrates years, a lot of people out there that you know high carbohydrate. They have zero issues with whatsoever and that's one of the weirder things about people. You know that we are so a ball depending upon your ancestry. You know what part of the world they they involved, yeah yeah, it's it's fastened! into me. 'cause I mean I'll look at folks doing complete This is why I am in there they're doing just fine yeah and it's you know that a look at some folks to that are doing the opposite of me. In there doing define for awhile, and then they ultimately start noticing the same kind of things I did and then they can clean it up. So it is kind of I think
at the end of the day, just to be honest with yourself, and you know, some people, I think, are real. We really robust and they can they can hit their body with that high octane fuel carbohydrate, like in and day out, at a high level, and it doesn't seem to bother a much, but you know other people like yet thing just that it can kind of it's like playing with rocket fuel a little bit where a little bit can be great and much of it can kind of Bernie up a little bit so you're saying he started off at like fifty grams of carbohydrates a day the grill stricken ptosis diet. Would it would you eventually moved to is so the way I call like your dies it so like when I look, my year, you can pick out a week where I'm kind of in peak training and I got a week where I'm kind of in like a recovery phase or off season, and it looks like to completely different lifestyles. So my first thought, after kind of like working through the whole key to Janica Pro each on because I should add to like once I got like feeling good about that. I start
adding back speed, workouts and things like that, and I definitely noticed that I was missing kind of that last year it was a lot more difficult to go out and really throttle down like I could run all day at a slow pace. But if I decide to go out on the track and do like four hundred meter repeats at like a really fast like really fast pace, is really hard to kind of to be able to do that. That's a common complaint, Robb, Wolf, Robble Robble, a similar issue he's gotten like very heavily into Jiu Jitsu, and he's, telling me that he just can't stick to that fifty grams of carbohydrates a day and still have the energy to go hard? Did you notice Rob Wolf workout more than one time a day? I do not know he looks very fit, though I'm not sure what his what his schedule is, but I know he works out very hard and if he's doing jujitsu, this is really very difficult to do, Jujitsu any other way than hard sure yeah. You know this is one thing. I've always been
is about to end. You know, I'm not I'm not trying to come, come on here and say, like everyone should switch to doing what I do. I mean I think you should follow your own. Your own set your own personal self, and if the Beyonce yourself, you feel great, do what you're doing. If you don't, then probably to change something, but like one thing I, I'm always looking at now or suspecting. Is that like it's more about the recovery between efforts than it is about the intensity of the effort or the duration of the effort into how much carbs you need to bring back or want to bring back, because I've also had circumstances where, like I'll do like a big workout or a race or something like that and then I'll go really easy for like a week and during that week, I'll go like super strict Keto, because I'm recover I'm not doing anything intense, I'm not doing anything too long. So that's point in my training, where I kind of say alright, let's get rid of the start, the fast acting fuel sources. I don't need him right now and reset fat adaptation thing. So you feel like you, the fast acting fuel sources of carbohydrates.
And we really need them when you're pushing hard right when you're really running fast yeah, and I actually think it's it's when you're doubling down on those on a regular basis so like if you're working out really hard for like forty five minutes to an hour a day. I think you can probably get with almost a ketogenic or like a really low carbohydrate approach, because you're giving yourself like twenty three plus hours between sessions for your body to kind of talk glycogen stores from other areas like areas like from fat and proteins, and things like that. I think when you, getting into a system where you're like myself, I'm doing two days a lot and then sometimes one of those is a speed session. That's when I feel like I need to some a carbohydrate back in. I think it's probably just to get some of the glycogen a little faster rate, because that is going to replenish your glycogen stores faster, is a carbohydrate and like a fat or or protein, probably would so how many Graham is carbohydrates. Today, would you have in a day like that, even when I'm in like peak training, which is about twenty hours a week- of running strength, training and mobility type stuff. I'll, probably let myself
get up to like fifteen to twenty five percent of my intake from carbohydrate. We think that isn't gram Probably it depends a lot on like what I actually do a because I don't count calories, often I I used to just to kinda like see what was going on and then I kind of got into it with it. I am wise, you know. It's probably anywhere from like two to three hundred maybe and then, when I'm in those phases of training, it's really intense in terms of like just are it's just really tedious and the amount of time and energy required for it. Now you blood, monitor at the time you checking your millimolar. Sometimes like. When I look when I get curious about that type of stuff, I've done it in the past. I've actually what I did, originally is I got the blood ketone monitor and I also got one of those key tonics, but, like it's like this little
this thing and then you blow into it and then, and is that accurate? I think, there's I think, there's varied results. I think they've gotten a lot better, with but what I did is I actually measured my blood ketone an then I would use that and I tried to find kind of like if mine matching what that thing would say so I kind of had- and I I got it to where I kind of had an idea where the certain range is on that thing would kind of indicate whether I was in ketosis or not so like. I very much is coming out of ketosis during peak like when I would specially when I would get up to two three hundred grams of carbohydrate. I would come out of key ptosis and I probably go back into ketosis throughout that thought that phase when you say go back in and come out like what kind of time period you talking about it at the time. Here, it was more indicative about what I kind of eight during it to like. If I did, if, if I did or I should say what I like, how I kind of structured those two to three hundred grams
carbohydrate like I did like a big bolus of it in one meal I get back into ketosis a little quicker because then I wouldn't come back to the carbohydrates. So what you very inside the day yeah I would still like here's where it got kind of interesting. I guess is do a lot of the heaviest bulk of my training in the morning. So I typically wake up and have some like coffee with, like coconut milk or heavy whipping cream or some like that and then you'll go for my run. So then I get back from a run. It might be two hours sometimes even three. You know at that point. I just slept for eight to ten hours then you know by the time I got down by run. No, I hadn't had probably hadn't I had century done, like a small intermittent fast for the most part, so like. Even when I had the higher amounts of carbohydrates. I find myself going back into ketosis at the end of something like that. Sometimes, but really
it was to me. It wasn't necessarily a question of whether I was in key ptosis or not 'cause. That really wasn't important to me, like four minutes, is important, exactly yeah in what I wanted out of this approach. Was I wanted? be able to rely on my body to body to burn high levels of fat when I needed it but I also want to be metabolically flexible enough, where, if I needed to hit the gas pedal, I could do that as well, and I think where people get a little confused They are up in arms or something because there's not a whole lot of studies. That kind of look at that specifically Can you do that? Or can you not do that? Some people think it's kind of an uh, nothing thing where you either get really fat adapted or you get really are dependent and then everything else is kind of like you know this gray that you can't really get into. But that's not my experience my experience has been that, like I can get the here's my kind of litmus test.
I can go for like a four hour, even five hour run with no fuel other than water and electrolytes. Then I'm fat adapted enough I don't need to get any more fat adapted than that, because I can't eat during a race and everyone else is going to be so like I don't. I need to get more fat added that from a performance standpoint. So when I get to that point, then it's like how many, how many carbohydrates can I bring back to kinda, give me that extra knowledge or that extra fuel substrate on have you ever tried, mixing exogenous ketones with carbohydrates? um Greenfield was talking about that he doing steroids. There was incredible yeah there again he's made he's a maniac yeah, there's a who else was. It was a dominant d Augustine always plan all that stuff, quite a bit too or he might have helped he might help with those the Cree mission of some of that stuff. I know there was uh. I'd have to look back in my emails and stuff, but I actually had there was a guy who is doing a real clinical version of the exogeneous Ketones
and he had sent me one awhile back to kind of do a little test for him and and it was like just this little Canis, there are of exogeneous ketone and you wanted me to kind of check. My ketones, when I woke up in the morning, take that test minutes later and then test again after my reset like a ketone ester yeah, I think so. It's super potent stuff taste like Godzilla's, Dick, Matt Brown brought some of that in it's like movie at. Did you test for keytones when you took it? I didn't have a monitor on me, but it tasted terrible, but I felt great after it was out- and you have to take it with glucose yeah yeah see, I think, that's maybe that's where I messed up, but besides that, like my ketone level shot up. I woke up that morning. I think I was at like one Milla moles or something like that. I took that exogeneous ketone and fifteen minutes later. I test as a three point: seven normals wow, so it was like okay stuff, yeah. It work, but I don't know
here's! What here's! My question is with that stuff from a performance standpoint is like it's. People are looking at that kind of, I think more, like an electrolyte where it's like. I take this on top of my energy source, whereas that's actually an Nrg fairly potent one two so like when I'm out there racing and I'm trying to kind of limit to eat a certain amount so that I kind of keep that nrg where I want it, but I'm also trying not to go overboard, because I don't want digestive stress, that's interesting so like as you're running you have to maintain like a certain amount of food in your system, but you don't want to have a large meal. Yeah yeah 'cause like basically the way it simply simply put it like digestion requires blood volume. You know to move into your gotten like digest the food. So when you're running, especially when it's hot, your body is also trying to use your your blood volume for muscle, function and cooling, and things like that so by
introducing another use for that blood volume. Your body's problem is, is running out. Resources to kind of make all those things run smoothly. Which, why a lot of times in ultramarathons people find out like they have the worst luck with like throwing up. In stomach issues when it gets really hot out, because their bodies gotta go double down on the cooling side of things with the blood volume and then it's like well something's gotta give so just pukes up everything you put in your stomach wow. Yeah. So is there a way to mitigate that eat? Less So when you, when, if you're running like what's a size portion like what it, what would you do? Save you doing a hundred miler yeah and you have to pause for fuel on You know I'll I'll, typically aim for around a hundred and two one calories calories an hour when I'm doing doing a hundred miler in into kind of put that in perspective, when I was high carb. I was aiming for three four and sometimes even five hundred calories an hour. So when I kind of
went into the approach where fat was my primary fuel source, the the need for that hydrate essentially got cut in half, if not more in for me, that's a win as long as energy levels are the same because it means I have to eat less during the race is one less logistic thing. One less potential stomach issue. So what's up a typical meal, a typical likely running. While I'm running I usually stick to like the like water base, stuff so like I'll use, a product called accent fuel five and it's actually like a really really high level sports drink with, like a varying, it's got its its carbohydrate based, and I can tell you why I use carbohydrates instead of fats during a race in a minute too, if you want, but it's like five different types of kind of carbon Great that release at varying points. You get some that's kind of a little quick jolt and others that are more sustained, like kind of like a sweet, potato type of a release, so I'll be just trickling, in so like, if I'm doing like
One hundred miler and, let's say I'm a meaning for like thirty to forty ounce, is of water per hour to kind of stay, top hydration I'll. Put put you know to like a hundred or two, Cal is with that stuff in that water. So then, I'm kind of killing two birds with one stone and getting my fuel and as well as tide rating at the same time. So What and why you taking carbohydrates, while you're running instead of fats yeah. So that's the other thing like and I see this as as somewhat of a. I don't know if it's an issue necessarily, but it's an interesting thing for at that, at the very least, is when you, when I talk to folks who are like really to the high fat approach. You know some of them are like zero carb or, like really ketogenic all the time. Twenty four slash, seven taking in like fat sources during a race and I've never understood that just because when you get your body's energy systems during a race like you have your glycogen stores, and then you have body fat and I think a lot of people kind of,
misled and they think. Oh, I'm a really lean runner. So I can't rely on body fat when, in reality, even the leanest endurance athletes have enough body fat to get through an endurance race like even if your four percent five percent body fat at your leanest, you that's a much bigger fuel source. Then your glycogen reason. So when I'm doing a race, I've gotten a fat to take care of the fat metabolising portion of that energy requirement for the race but I might run out of, is those glycogen stores which are really small in comparison. So I'm trying to just slowly trickle the the the sugar or the carbohydrate during a race just enough to kind of my glycogen stores, where I want to be so, I can hit the gas if I need too, but now at the level where it's going to cause stomach distress or compromise or heavily compromised, my body's willingness or ability to burn fat either. That's fascinating so like as you're running your body could switch back and forth between fats and carbohydrates because you're so fat adapted,
yeah- and I you know- it's actually probably happening like simultaneously, it's just at different rates like like someone, who's really fat adapted, they could be running kind of the same effort and the fat adapted person might be like burning. Eighty percent fat, twenty percent carbohydrate and the carb dependent person might be like a five thousand and fifty split so that car dependent person is going to exhaust their glycogen stores a lot quicker or they're going to have to fuel themselves. At a much higher rate to make up for that deficit and when you look at like how difficult that is, because you know some of these for some these mountain races, we are running a pale. It's like you. You might be burning a hundred plus calories an hour and if that's a really normal right, yeah ha ha yeah. It's really hard to replace that on the fly you those running up, Pill one, so I would think that's much more difficult race. Yeah. I mean it's a different set up. It's it's one of those. Things where I'm pretty Do that actually, like most of my ultra running query, focus more on flat, stuff and
That's just 'cause. I've lived in a lot of flat areas and, like I was kind of saying earlier, if you really want to nail race, you have to be specific. So so I learned kind of early, probably around, like two thousand and thirteen or so that was in my best interest to make my Grace is flat ones. If I really wanted to meet my full potential now, I live in fear, so I got a lot more access to mountains. You can get on the trails and do some significant, climbing right on my back door, so I certainly been able to practice. More as I've gotten more competent at I do recognize like. Oh it's not quite as hard as I thought it was originally. I was going into it essentially undertrained, whereas now it's like go into it. I'm like oh, I'm more adjusted to this so so I mean it's still hard like going. Uphill is hard, no matter how you skin it, but it's like it's one of those things where, if you kind of figure out the pace it shouldn't be any more hard like, for it should be just as hard to run flat because you're gonna run faster. Then it's just that it just comes down to. I think the right training and you'll pay
everything right, it's interesting, you're, saying you're living in Phoenix. Do you run the summer in Phoenix? Does Phoenix is fucking insanely hot? So I move there in January, so I could move wake up, call come to like whoa yeah it'll be it'll, be warm actually kind of like it, because right now, I'm training for the western states one hundred and that in. It starts in Squaw Valley and ends in Auburn ca, and they go through like these four canyons that get can get brutally hot. Like one hundred and ten plus some years, an like run with like avast, we have water bottles attached to or anything yeah yeah. The hunt that stuff is come such a long way since I started the sport. I remember when I first started it was pretty primitive type stuff, and now the the sport is, the I think through hiking plays a big role in this, too is gotten like. So popular are popular enough. Where now companies are really tight, dialing that stuff in where you can get like a pack that just sits nice and snug on you and you can put water like
Are you a use, a brand call Nate? Then they have like ones of Blatter's on the back, where they also once you put water bottles on the front, and then just your different set ups and stuff, so so yeah that that's like a must in heat, is even in early mornings. It's got him brutal in Phoenix right, yeah I mean I have yet to see the worst of it while move there well part of it was, I want to carry gun. Well, I'm looking at it like crazy lol. Well, I move from Sacramento, so let's say I'm looking into that now, but yeah, so it's some it was, is a combination of things for me, like I'm, trying to kind of balance a few different things. I I I train a lot. I also work for one of my primary sponsors alter footwear in the like from need to be able to kind of do this stuff for them.
I was wanting to do it made more sense to be in Phoenix just like product testing and stuff like that. Yeah that and just like putting on like, like small group, runs in events and things like that in the area like if I wanted to invest. If I wanted, kind of appropriately handle the territory Phoenix made. A lot more sense in Sacramento Northern California is just grown so much for that company in the last couple of years that like they need get someone in there who is going to do full time plus to really cover the area an I also got engaged in in January as well so uh, fiance. She she was best served being in the Phoenix area so it's kind of a mutual choose from Dallas originally and feed. Just kind of like a mutually good spot for both of us. So we we both kind of looked at It is like well what do we want and it was. We want trails right in our backyard, but we also want access to flat stuff and we actually kind of want the heat, because, like there's races where you need that to train for
So when it gets hot earlier, you can prepare for them more every reason to move to Phoenix. I would I'm enjoying the heat for training yeah. Well, I'm not even the craziest one in the house. My fiance is a savage she. Her name is Nicole Khaled Drawplus. She like You know how, like I thought, I've always thought. I'm a hard worker and someone who like puts a lot of time and effort into things I do and then I her and not. You know I like to she's cut from the Jackal cloth. Let's put it that way. Nice, so yeah yeah she'll do like she. She works for a company called towers Watson and it kind of does manage, is the Midwest division for like stuff, so she'll be on, like a conference call with Amazon and then you will go out and run three hours after then come back and get another conference call and just going going gone so it's a you know it it. It was it made sense for her job and my job to kind of be in Phoenix and with
busy as she is and as busy as I can get from time to time like it's nice to be able to go out your backyard and be on the trail five minutes later where, whereas both of us didn't have that before we both had to drive to get to any kind of trail specially her Dallas, there's a lot of just like flat RD running in her area, so talks with him, hardly any hills, oh you all and that's that's that's. What is impressive with so she's done western states a few times his eyes telling before the canyons and it's been six place there twice just training on flat roads, basically, so crazy did she do anything to augment that like doing lunges or anything like that. If she does some strength, work and stuff, but really a lot of it was just you know, she would go out and run and run a lot. And I'm sure like she Hasn'T- met her full potential at that specific event, or certainly like mountain type, races just because she wasn't trained in mountains right, yeah and she's she's good.
So like I mean she was division, one recruit for college and stuff back in the day, so she's got some running talent, no doubt, and then she puts in the work. His consistency is a huge thing like if you can't find the specific stuff and you're really geeked about a specific race like I don't think not having the right training environment is reason to not do it if you're excited to do it so like for her he was more excited to get out on the trails and she was to go. You know do something on a tracker Road like I was so for her. It was even if I'm not quite where I would like to be I'm going to do it anyway. Now I'm not familiar with altra footwear. But what I wanted to ask you is: does anybody wear like minimalist shoes and run these ultra marathons? Yeah yeah there was a it was actually a galaxy remember. Her name is a couple years ago who ran ultras in those Vibram five fingers. Yeah and the trail stuff too, so you know been a beast yeah yeah
yeah, it's hard to run just a couple miles in it's. You know it's interesting because to alter for made the shoe this last year called the the vanishing it's essentially shoe just like a little bit of fabric on the top super super hard flat base. That's what I like when I'm on a road or track. Call to vanish vanish yeah, pull that up and see what it looks like and it's so I went to this this this race and I wore those thinking I'm going to have the lightest shoe out of anyone here. Three guys show up running completely barefoot wine, that they ran an ultra marathon barefoot, yeah dude. That's another level. Yeah there was one there was one guy who's Christ he's like a two hundred and twenty two or twenty three marathon or an he's barefoot. He said like he runs a marathon bear, so he doesn't do the marathon barefoot. He actually said that that's a little bit of padding in that it looks like we're less there's a lip on the outside is that the vanish is that
this vanished yeah yeah yeah, so I mean there's but there's like a like a carbon fiber plate, and you see where the little cut is in there that carbon fiber plate in there. That makes a little more firm. So what I'm looking for in a shoe when I'm looking for kind of like that natural feel is something that's got. Fur midsole or affirm Derrama ter, because, like I don't want to squish down into the shoe, I want to pop right off the ground. An I think like really like. That is just I mean you've probably experienced this third with the vibe rooms where like. If you spend the time your foot feet, get stronger and stronger. Stronger and it's only a matter of time before they get strong if you've got to keep kind of working at it. Just like you know, uh You know when they start out weight, lifting they're nowhere near where they are ten years later. So for me back in twenty twelve
I cannot let you know. I read born to run an ad in the book. Yeah I've heard it's amazing yeah. You know I I I read that I was like this is intriguing. You know and and made a lot of sense to it's like you know if we were meant to have a wedge on our he'll like we would have had a wedge. Honor he'll yeah? No, that's that's a ridiculous thing that Nike came up with, and it's really unfortunate that so many people have adopted that and they run heal first, like yeah well in the problem I think to is that, like the shoe is essentially a cast for your foot yeah, even that vanished that I had up there, that's a little cast compared to what you're normally going to see, but it's still a cast. That's why I like those five fingers, so there's nothing. This is very very flexible piece of rubber underneath and his glove for your eat. Yeah yeah and you know people just don't know that. I think that you can really work those foot muscles to a point where you can exhaust them the way you would in a shoe. It just takes a lot of time, ' 'cause like if I broke my arm and put a cast on it
and then like six, eight weeks later got the cast taken If I went back in the weight room and did a normal routine, I would be wrecked the next day. So when you take your foot out of that shoe cast you have it in or take it out of the position it's gotten used to and put it in a different position. It's like taking a cast and trying to do that full mode of mode of training or motion. So, like you know, when I first kind of gotten ultra running ice, I work my way down to a minimal shoe. I spent probably six months before I was running exclusively in something that was really. Minimalist and when I say minimalist I mean zero drop and no in our little to no cushion 'cause. I think some people confuse that too. Like that the shoe you saw there. Could you look? It looks like it's got a little bit of adding there. So that's like zero drop with cushioning You really don't have a lot of cushioning, but there are shoes. Ultra makes it does, and what that does is take you from like Skype is. This. Is someone in like a uh
traditional running shoe grill, built up cushion lot of support is on one in a spectrum barefoot running like dude that I ran into at the track there on the other end of the spectrum, there's all these steps in between to get to that so like can't believe people run ultras barefoot, yeah, it's crazy, I don't think to include this fuckin' savage look at this dude barefoot TED, but TED yeah, I said, also use the sandal yeah a sandal. Well, it wasn't that in the born to one that these guys had made sandals out of tires yeah yeah. I've been using something called a pull up. This vivo vivo barefoot I've been using these uhm What I like about these is that I don't have to look where I step: there's no shooting at all the trail, one that I'd lose that won. The far left, the far left yeah that run
there's no cushion to it, but it's got some tread and the bottom is hard enough so that I could run on hard rocks and I don't think about it, it's hard to tell in that image how little there is underneath it, but there's a nothing going on in in terms of like there's no squish to it at all. There's there's some good size knobs. So you have some good, some good tread. You know. So you can. You know you can get good traction and and dirt and mud and stuff, like that, yeah that way, nothing! That's yeah! Couple that thing up your foot muscles are flexing every which way they will that's cool yeah. It's made of difference with me. Man, but honestly to five fingers are probably the best for that. They just don't have as much traction, and I have to look where I'm stepping you know like I have to be careful like sharp rocks and stuff. I have to look down don't step on that while ago I don't like looking
run in with those I can just run just flow through it. You can get a faster pace with those yeah and that's where I kind of draw line. Two is like when I'm on the roads and on track, I don't mind having that like no cushion type of thing, but then, when I go on like the trails in Phoenix very rocky and hard and then I'll use like a shoe called the king empty. That's like the one you had there, it's a little less nimble. I would say then that one, but it's got that that like really aggressive lug, it's got the foot shape tool box. So I don't feel like my feet- are getting pinched together. What do you think barefoot TED does? Unlike on the trails, those trails, I think, probably wear those sandals, probably right, yeah, just something where it's got just something that keeps him for getting cut yeah, but there are guys who just do that. A foot to function and there's very few, but it's it's it's doable. Have you ever see that show dual survivor? It's one of those wacky survivor shows. I don't know if I've seen that one and this one guy, I think, is named Cory, who has the most disgusting feet I've ever seen in my life, almost as
cussing is that one guy was cutting the bottom of feet off and feed it to dogs with a knife that videos awful to watch, but this guy walks barefoot everywhere in his ideas like do you got a tough in your feet up? Yes, you might not have shoes, you know they. They get real crazy with this whole survivalist. Yes to this, guy's basically has I'm not joking, like a good, solid, half inch of callas under There's entire foot! It's amazing what the human body will do when you put it in a position to need to yeah it has to adapt, mean that's one of the reasons why I'm fascinated by guys, like you, these ultra runners is because, for the average person, that's an impossible feat, but you've built there's that guy's foot look at that. What ends up fox elephant skin yeah gnarly, but guys, like you, have adapted your body to this position. Where you know you can do that, and it's just matter of putting
the training runs and making sure you're fueling up correctly- and you know one hundred mile race is not a question whether not you could do it it's how fast he could do it. Yeah no it's it's interesting. The cool thing in this might go back to just like why ultra marathons, I think it is part of it too, is like in one hundred miles. It's all like it's not a matter of when something gonna go wrong. It's the r a I should say if something isn't go wrong, it's a matter of when and how do you respond to it right? So it's a typical thing goes wrong. You know, I think a lot of people will have like cramps Bing or they'll bonk. I mean this is one of the reasons why I love the high fat approaches because, like bonking from the energy side of things is essentially nonexistent. Explain, blanquita people don't know we talked so. Banking is essentially what happens in it's it's. I think it's actually more common in marathon, just because people are running a lot faster in those, but essentially what's happening is you're depleting your like it stores to the point where your body doesn't really have access to. Fuel substrate anymore and
If you are trying, if you're not good at metabolising factor, you cannot burn fat at a high rate at a decent clip, it's a grind you to a halt, people staggering and falling over, losing her mind, hallucinating and stuff like that in those situations. So, like you, know, parking is something that is, is an issue with ultramarathons you're out there for so long. If you get behind on fueling, you know you could Bach and stuff like that. So you know part of the reason- and I talked about before with like there's a lot of legit six with an ultra in, and these variables are just just just so prevalent when you're out there that long that, if you can eliminate some of those are reduce the potential them flaring up. That's usually a because in there's less chance of something popping up that you would expect to earn on certain thing happening during the race and but you missed this happen. You know I've done that. I would say the mostly one hundred miler. I've done is when I ran eleven hours and forty minutes and fifty five seconds at a race in twenty fifteen holyshit you ran, ran
hundred miles in eleven hours yeah. That was, that was on a trip that was one on the track in I don't give a that's cool. He ran a Levin hours you're at a hundred miles. Yes, so I think the thing that How long does it take to drive one hundred miles? Ok, it takes it. I mean if you go one hundred miles an hour, it takes an hour, might take me longer to get to the airport. If the traffic on the fly, this House ACT bitter broke the US one hundred mile record you average seven ' ten minutes per mile for almost twelve hours dude. That is insane that is fucking insane Bert Kreischer Hebrew. 'cause when he runs seven minute miles for like three miles What a burden of running that the l, American and six half six and a half well, I think, was that it was shorter than that. I think it's fifty five something yeah
no, no, they are his dad. He's fucking Jamie Jamie Jamie about rocking horse. Well I'll, say I'll, say I'll, say this here bird. If you're listening contact me I'll, get you to four one slash two in six months, You heard of new challenge. Zach is fundamental. He tells you can do it do. That is. That is an incredible number that you broke the Us1. Mile record by running seven fucking minutes per mile. It's that's crazy that the interesting thing I thought about that event was when I was talking about efficiency. Is I stopped twice during that race? An it was for maybe a total of like sixty ninety seconds total- and it was just it- was just a p2 times so like if I thought about just being your pan and just keep run well. Black shorts party rolling. There was a guy who did that was two years before I did that race and he was trying to thirteen hours and he was like right on the edge. I mean he just whipped it out and peed all over.
I'm pretty sure ESPN is on pants, I don't know yeah I mean, I think, that's probably what I would do and um it's like. I do need himself, Well, everyone who's been doing endurance. Sport long enough will have a have a situation like that, unfortunately has got a front of his legs. You must it explode last, it must have been a bomb bomb, went off yeah, it's a you know. It's! It's a ok to poop your pants and as a sign is that him, with the same guy or different person, that's very sensitive subject for folks in your pants, it's it's a it's a running joke in the interns running community, though, because if you do it long enough, it's gonna probably happened to it. I would ask right now imagining you're running a hundred miles and your body's gonna there's gonna be misfires, sure. How do you time your meals like before you run like, say if you're going to run one hundred miles when's your last meal before you get there yeah, so I'll eat a big dinner
the night before probably around like four hundred or five hundred o'clock, and what would that be so I'll do like a huge stake. I try to keep sixteen ounces. Twenty ounces yeah at least one thousand six hundred and twenty really pretty good numbers to weigh one hundred and forty pounds give or take that's a lot of fucking me yeah that's crazy. Well, this is where it gets fascinating. With the life The thing I was telling you about is like there's days during the year, where, like I'm in training, where I'm metabolising two to three times my resting metabolic rate, so I've got to feed myself appropriately for that and that means a lot of steak shows that your primary food source, if it's a steak for sure, but definitely fatty meat sources, a lot of like like saturated fat based oils, coconut oil like guy that sort of thing but yeah I don't. I don't shy away from meat. I usually have meat or eggs for every meal for the most part interesting.
In every meal. I should say: yeah, there's a lot of talk lately about the carnivore diet, there's a lot of people that are delving into that, including Jordan, Peterson's, daughter, which is a really interesting case because she had severe autoimmune disorder like she had some severe issues with like horrible arthritis, where she's had uh no she's had hip replacements and I believe, she's having an ankle replace soon too. She likes it ear issues and if she eats anything, in other than me, it flares up horribly, it's really crazy yeah I've? Never I'm going to try to talk to, or maybe even get her in here, but uh. I've never heard anything like that. I thought I heard somewhere. It was after the last time you had Jordan on where he was telling you about how he just basically meats and greens, where he's on his daughter's recommendation yeah, I think he's cut out all vegetables right now for at least a trial. I thought I saw something about that. Yeah. It's it's one of those things where I think like it's
What I was saying before like why I don't necessarily want people to say like well. Zach is saying everyone should exactly what he is doing and then you know they that's important to bring up. My everybody's body is different for sure I mean to the point where, like you have people like that, like when I had like the issues I were having were incredibly minor compared to Jordan, Peterson's daughter, Like I mean she's in a spot where You know she had to make changes if you wanted to even just probably do daily activities- and you know that's that- that's I think the hard part for people to kind of understand is like there people are at different stages that some people, like no ones breaking themselves overnight. So it's like this is something that's chipping away at people and sometimes it chips away at them quicker and not some people and take longer for others. So if you have an issue like that, it's like you almost have to go back to square one and say what are give me a couple things that I know aren't going to upset
me and let's start from there and see if we can start adding things back eventually, maybe or you know we shot. Baker you had on the podcast. We actually started, recording some podcasts together and um. We're having this gal come on. Who's been a carnivore for eight years, and I was kind of in that situation where she had a whole bunch of things going on even with the Kyoto Protocol, and she eventually just cut everything out, but meat and he's been doing great ever since, and that's a Vegans nightmare here and things like that, like no well yeah. I just wish people could separate their ideology from the reality of certain people's bodies, an unfortunately this is very, unfortunately, you got a separate. Also, all your all the cars that we associate with factory farming and all the other things that we associate with meat and meat consumption. Things are real and terrible, and he absolutely should be avoided in absolutely factory farm should be illegal I think it's one of the great heart
of modern society. I really really do but take that away then, some people, don't think animals should die at all, but they don't live forever and other animals eat him, and it's just like this is just a part of life. Yeah then you're into health. And whether or not consuming meat is actually healthy and there's no evidence that it's not there's none. Yet you know the thing that, like I want a vegan to sit me down and explain to me. Is that, like when I look at bioavailability availability of micronutrients. It's like you can't find much better than liver, like it's This stuff is super available. Let's why alpha wolves immediately go to the river when they kill something yeah so like it It's so like it's like. I need that like I don't know, I'm sure those ranges of what people can do in terms of absorbing something like a Nonheme iron versus a heme iron, but like
For me, it's it's like I'm going if my iron levels below the first thing, I'm going to I'm doubling down on liver, doubling down a liver and it's like far as nutrients yeah yeah, you just talking about just from a purely objective standpoint on consumption nutrients, organ meats or some of the best yeah for sure your where Chris Crecer yep Chris was a macrobiotic vegan. You know I mean he was like fully hardcore, and this was having all sorts of huge issues. His body just didn't react to it and he fixed all that by eating organ meat and that's like his primary foods, yeah. What's the gals name, there's a lady who she can what she had. I'm I'm not going to think of it. But if I do I'll remember, but she did pretty much the same thing, but some people are fine with vegan and that's the other thing that's important to point out, it might not be the best for them in terms of like Bio, available bio availability of nutrients, but it's
only better than the standard, western diet, so sure american diet, but yeah well, some people they can get by with it and not have any issues on some people get away with. Even more I mean record Walter, which sees candy right like it's candy and drinks, beer and pizza nachos. We took it to a bagel place. She sucking now down hills and cream cheese, she's, a fucking animal man. I read an article about her not too long ago and she said that she's got like candy jar sitting around the house, yeah and she's like before. I go for I'll go anywhere from just like. You know labeling on it's a small stomach ache, so we're not operating from the same field, let's see is a real freak man. You know, there's people that know her, that just there's stunned by her because, what's interesting about her is she's not a fast runner in Purcell like like the way she would run a marathon she'd run a marathon in like three hours so did she? Did she talk about how she got into running when she was on here? I believe she did do you. Member are specifically Jamie. Just sort of like you see random.
I think a lot yeah. She was teaching as well. Okay, yeah. She was teaching, she was running and and doing these things and then eventually she was able to get enough sponsors. She could run full time which, which is what she does now, but with with her eyes I think- and this is one of the reasons why I'm fascinated by you folks, with her it's her mine, her mind is just unbelievably powerful. When she was experiencing cornea ademuz might hurt, she couldn't fucking the man. She was literally blind. She barely could see her feet and she still one. She fell. Cracked. Head, open, bloods pouring down her head and she the one with the run, rabbit run. I think that was what it was. I think that's what it was and there's an image of her crossing the finish line literally can't see shit. She got her hands in front of her she's covered in blood.
Like she's, a fucking, savage she's she's? If you take the interesting about ultra marathons, is like we kind of were small enough sport where it's like you can't really say like? Oh I'm, one hundred miler, it's like ok, everybody would know right. Yeah looks like yeah, I know it's so like you have everything from a fifty kilometre, that's got over ten thousand feet of climbing and descending to a six day event on a track and they're all the same sport yeah. When you look at like people, you can kind of do really well at all of them or in Courtney's case really well at all of them. You can't find a better female on the female side of things. Someone can do it better than that she does it. She goes on the track, kills it. She goes into one hundred and forty miles through the mountains. Kills it it's crazy yeah she something on really really unusual. You know a buddy. My friend Bryant was texting me about her. While she was getting Brian as he doesn't even run, I don't think are barely and he's not, but he was just so
fascinated by this one woman that was so far ahead of everybody's, like what the fuck is she doing, then she beat the second place guy by ten hours in two hundred and thirty, eight mile race two miles she was ahead of them yeah. That's topic to wear like the where the men and women in Ultra Marathon and how that kind of, like it's one of the rare races where women can win yeah and it's the the interesting thing to me about it- is women can and to win some races. But when they're like Lake Courtney, is very much the most, I would say, talented, person to do one of the two hundred dollars yet like there hasn't been a lot of what like the the top of the sport, hasn't really moved into that I mean Courtney certainly is top of the sport, but she thinks she's the best. I think she's, the best woman all around right certainly in the United States. I think she's the best at running those two hundred milers it
then dip on altitude gain and loss, probably in and variables to the day. I think like so I mean there's some like there's a guy name, change, your name and he spell's last name. O r n e t, and I- He won the he essentially the best mountain runner by far like there's, maybe one of the guy could maybe compete with him at something under a hundred miles. But if it's like he's, he would probably like beat everyone by who knows how much in a two hundred and fifty one of these videos before yeah he'll he'll run on these he'll run on these, like ridge lines and like it'll, be the death on both sides, and he just do do do do can you guys yeah, so I yeah. This isn't even nearly as seen in some of them guys to MIKE yeah. That's that's crazy! Look at him! Look a freak too
Gopro strapped to his head, that's gotta, throw your balance off he's running with the gopro. Put that down the intention, those my son be like pay attention where you're running kid. Jesus yeah he's in sting because I mean his parents were like mountain years. I think- and I think he was like basically playing the mountains at like age, three and basically grew up doing the stuff. So my god yeah so he's the cut he's the type the guy who, like he's probably the best in the sport right now, and it's he's jumping around his mashole he's an asshole he's. He is running. What is this a video on Instagram? I don't really know: okay, and it's spell his name: ki- is at two ls one hundred one li, a N J, o r n e t is running in Shomoy. How do you say that Germany Shamina Chardonnay, and he's running on what looks like the fin of a shark. If Bush mark was the size of a mountain is a fucking animal man. That is
scary, this thing. I get sweaty. My hands are sweating. My freaking out scared just watching it, so he is the best on the mountains for sure he do anything. That's not mountainous, like he did western states in one in two thousand and eleven, and he was complaining about it being too flat out she's right what is the gain and loss of elevation. What happens in that down hill? So it's twenty three hundred or twenty thousand feet down seventeen thousand feet up what so he's complaining not that yeah, it's too flat, seventeen thousand feet up and it gets much crazier in that you can do. You can do like fifty dollars or one hundred cases that have the same profile is that you can get like if you're doing like what he's doing. That probably does feel kind of flat for him, like he likes that steep technical stuff, so but yeah. So as far as the mountains go he's the guy to beat for sure and he'll do races on a regular basis when he is running. 'cause he's actually professional skier too. So, like he's running? Basically, half the year and skiing scheme, the other half is Christ.
So he's a fondue to follow for sure but yeah. It's when you look at like some of the races that are kind of the big races like western states. One hundred is the most competitive one hundred mile or in the United States, and ultra Trail Mount Blanc, which is actually by Shamina, where you saw that video, it's probably at least last year the most competitive in the world, those are the ' 'cause. I like to look at to kind of see like where the divergences from the males and the females, and if you look at the course record, In winning times, like the men are finishing like two plus hours, the head of the women are on a pretty regular basis on that type of stuff and at Ultra Trail Mount. You know. Sometimes it's for five hours, and it is so, then you can kind of lay it actually kind of is more in line with what you see with other interns distances like marathons and stuff. Like that, the crazy thing about it, though, is that doesn't mean that's gonna happen every time,
like there's, certainly years where women do really well and finish like in the top ten amongst the in, like like western states or utmb, one year, two thousand and six, this gal Nikki Kimball she finished third overall at western stage was which is the highest finisher in finishing place for woman other than this other lady named and tracing who she doesn't really race anymore. But she was just kinda like the legend of the sport from the women. We're she's she's are on one western states like fourteen times and had like twenty world records at one point and stuff like that, and Nikki Nikki Campbell, she finished. Third in part of it was 'cause. That was like the hottest year in the canyons on record, and if women do one thing, I'm pretty content you can do better at these one hundred dollars and they are not nearly as stupid like man will go out and like if it's competitive it takes one or guys to kind of run a little too fast and he's going to bring five six seven guys with them and then it's it's actually
fascinating racing concept. I think because then it's like, if you're watching it you're like ok, one of these guys the race of his life and hold on for dear life and run a spectacular time. Everyone else is going to blow up quickly once it going to happen, so you can thin out men's field, really easy. When that happens, I think the women are a little smarter than that they can have a demo operate. Wasn't wasn't there a guy that was like way out ahead, yeah that might have been the case yeah he dropped off yeah. He was couldn't keep it up his pride running way too fast for what he was gay, of doing it. You see that all the time and it's really easy to do at one hundred plus miles 'cause, really at the end of the day like if you feel comfortable to start you'll, probably going too fast, Now how do you pace yourself in something like that? Like? What do you are you using your watch? Are you? Are you counting steps like what do you doing? Yeah hi I like to get to a point where I can use perceived effort. Which is basically like listening to my body, I can know like okay. This is a little too hard. I need to dial it back I'll use heart rate, a lot in training to kind of get myself to the fitness
I'm looking for your rich roll was talking about that. He was saying that he tries to stay under one hundred and forty or in the one hundred and forty inch yeah, and the thing about heart rate that I wear. I kind of deviate from heart rate is when you start getting into these really long events that go past like two or three Heart rate starts losing its value in terms of being able to trust it. As like a metric, that's going to tell you to do the right thing like there's so many things I can kind of disrupt that from dehydration to just cardiac drift and all kinds of all kinds of things. So I think like if an athlete really has things dialed in they can use heart rate and training and they can look at heart rate if they want, but they also need to connect that with perceived effort so that if something goes wrong with that or it starts, you know. Issue start coming up with the heart rate side of things, they can still kind of like reflect back in on themselves like ok, this This state sustainable pace for me or this is not a sustainable pace for Maine, rich roll point out, is a vegan yeah and you know he's one of the few guys that is
fully functional has no issues at all. Keeping that diet up yeah yeah and I think he took I mean he puts a lot of work into that. I think you have to yeah he's mean you really have to just super dedicated to make sure you're getting the proper amount of nutrients and making sure you get in microbiology and all these different forms of b12 and yeah. Yeah. And whenever someone comes to me and says, like I'm, a vegan, Rama, vegetarian or something like that, it's like who should I look to and see the first guy two is yeah. If there's someone doing it right, it's him. So now he's definitely doing it right now when it comes to something like MOAB, two hundred and forty. How does someone like Courtney below that whole field away like that? I think some of it is It's just that's a really new event, like I think they're in there, like third or fourth year for two hundred there's three of am in the United States and will probably be four or five in the next couple of years, so it really hasn't it's in its infancy. I mean think of it.
Like with UFC like back like in the nineties like in, and where does that today right so, like those two hundreds are kind of like you. If he was in the nineties, I see, and I mean if that becomes a thing. If people start gravitating toward it than your start, you'll see some of these course records just get blown out. I mean we saw that with a hundred mile distance and we've seen that with you know a lot about the trail course records because, like a lot of fast guys and gals, I moved into the sport the the last five ten years. So we've just been, it's been like just deeper talent pool more likely to get a, complete genetic freak more likely and the other thing too, is like a lot like a lot of times that you have. Is you get competitive enough? sport, then people start playing with fire and training, and they're doing it because they know they have to get to their optimal best and sometimes they overtrain Great overtrained get hurt and then but then the people that make it through that are there as fit as they can get
So then you can see you can see some really good times. If you peak for a race yeah, definitely the same way of fighter would peak for a fight, yep I'll use pick two, maybe three races a year and those are the ones that I'm really going to try to nail. Those are the ones where, like I'm going to try Do everything I can to be ready to hurt during that race and then I'll, usually do maybe It's usually ranged like I usually do about six to eight ultra marathons in a year and then the other ones are kind of like those training races that I talked about before or everyone Well get invited to a race, that's like overseas, and it's like a free trip to go to China or something like that. Well speaking, hurting during a race? I know that a lot of ultra runners are utilizing Cbd, an even using edible marijuana while they run and that they found This is a great performance. Enhancing yeah yeah I don't have you ever messed around with Cbd or yeah. That was not
not within workouts, though like more like a sleep aid than anything but like or an inflammation thinks it's more of a post work, and there was an esquire article or Maxim one of them- Gai Gai magazine type things, and it was all about marijuana in ultrarunning and that's it it's somehow or another become a big part of it that for a lot of these guys, yeah, I think you know it's interesting because, like you know- marijuana use, I'm not sure about Cbd, but marijuana use is like is illegal in competition, yeah all of them. Yeah, it's it's. So there's like a! U Sada type stand yeah, it's the same. It's the use, our protocol, so I think I think it's like it has to be below certain level for, like that's great, then so, they're testing for EPO and all those things I mean it's still pretty prim. Even ultra running, like there's testing.
The big races and that's even relatively new, like in the last year or so so, like western states, they'll test test, the top ten on each side and then a few random people. And then I think you t MB, which is the other big one hundred miles, Well, they tasks like I was tested. After when I broke the twelve hour world record in two thousand thirteen I got tested after that on. Have there been any big superstars that pits top on there's been people who have they were? like individuals that were like kind of like a poster child of the sport. Necessarily, although lamps plants aren't right nothing to running nothing like that. So it is it's. It's really interesting because, like I mean there's, certainly people skirting the rules and ultra marathon running I've, no I thought about it, but I think they're doing probably like What is it I don't we're doing like blood transfusion things like to order France,
I mean that's an expensive, hard thing to kind of put together. You need a doctor, essentially, if I'm understanding it all right, so there just doing a little like minor thing like maybe like peptides or something like that, would be my guess. But I also do think it's not nearly likes people. I think nowadays, like with Icarus and all that stuff, like now, people or on the opposite side of what they were a few years ago, where they suspect everyone's doing it versus no they're not doing it? They haven't gotten. Yet, which is where we were probably few years ago an altar running. I think I think the culture plays a huge role in that, like when you at Lance on. I think he was pretty good Talking about like how, like you know, like you come into the sport, you go over to to race and, like they ask you to get on a protocol. If you say no, they send you back like it's like that's a cultural thing, then to like, like it's like you, you have to do it to be in the sport almost with all turning it's kind of the opposite. I think I think the culture is stay away from that stuff like like we don't. We don't want that.
Because it's a mind thing almost more than anything, which is why people like Courtney, who aren't maybe the fastest marathon runners, but have this just bulletproof mind that allows them to compete and that you really there's no supplement for your mind for well power yeah yeah and there's things that can go wrong just the duration you're out there yeah, I can imagine I mean it seems to be so much of it seems to be your ability to deal with discomfort and pain and just press yeah it. You know. The way I describe ultra marathon running is still a running sport, see runners high the to use marijuana to improve their training. What was that in? Is it in the guardian, I, both marathon runners may seem like walking contradictions, but there are hints that the drug and long since running could go hand in hand. I'll tell you what man I've only done it a few times where I got super baked and went running. It feels awesome feels great feel so scared, though my god. What am I doing
but I would imagine for some, it's it's. You know euphoric, fifty percent of the runners, are meaner, avid cannabis user to say almost none of them are open about. It says: Avery CALL yeah, yeah, Avery Collins is he's interest. Because he's a spokesperson for marijuana use, and you know like I don't you don't have to look far into like marijuana and how it got- be where it is in terms of its legal or illegality to recognize. There is some time it will be going on there. Like I mean you don't have to be, historian, to find out like like why that's realised well, whereas alcohol isn't and that sort of thing yeah in Avery's, been like a pretty big proponent, about kind of destigmatizing stigmatizing it and but you know he understands at least he understands that it's building competition and I think he's been tested at least twice after races. I mean he was six western states last year, so he had gotten
for that and caffeine illegal in competition, no at a certain level. I think it is all they may have just removed it. I'm trying to remember. I saw that right, but it used to be like you can have caffeine, but at a certain level. It would be illegal, but it was like the equivalent like sixteen cups of coffee or something like that. So you have to put down like four of those nitro. Right before your. If you wanted any any chance of going. Then you probably going to cardiac arrest before then he right and by the time you got to the end of the race, would probably be out of your system anyway. Well, it's interesting. I actually! This is diverging a little bit, but I read a story awhile ago that there was some high school kid who's playing football and he likes Lambda Red Bull or some one of those like high caffeine energy drinks. And then like was like on the kick return, in team or something returned to kick for. A touchdown was just jacked out of his mind, slammed another one and then went back on the field that had a heart attack or something like that.
Could happen, so you go too hard and it's not just caffeine right. A lot of those things have a bunch of other wallpaper. Sherman said him to remember red lines. Oh yeah, I took one of those once I drank the whole bottle, and then I looked at it says like four servings, push. It will serve. One hundred and fifty milligrams of caffeine or something nuts yeah well, and then they put a bunch of statements in there that people don't know about so yeah, sorry and all sorts of other shit in there yeah yeah yeah the kind of those pre workout. So we kind of wild, green yeah member those ripped fuel. I took ripped fuel once and went to a Jujitsu class I'd stop how to stop training on like my heart is beating so fast. I could die here like this is this is not good, and that was right before pull it off the market cut it in. Just in time. I guess there was another thing they pulled off the market too. That was killing people was it called Jack 3D. I think I remember yeah yeah yeah that killed a few folks. I think it killed a few folks in the military.
So you know you're not talking about like some fucking sickly. My hands like I'm about to get track, no fuckin' soldiers, yeah yeah, I'll use caffeine in races, I think it's pretty clear that caffeine is a performance enhancing. It just happens to be one: that's that's legal and some mild performance enhancing for sure and using coffee or taking pills a little I've done a variety of different things, an I've done like I did a race once where I was trying to figure out, like my fueling rate and like kind of what was ideal, This is a while ago, but I did a hundred K race and I did nothing but mountain dew and it was like wow. I think I took in it ended up coming out to about one hundred and fifty eight The reason hour of just mountain dew, with someone like I had some electrolytes too. I feel like if you, if you just sitting around doing nothing, mountain dews, probably terrible for you, but if you're running hills and
the kick and ask like that. The amount of fuel you're burning, mountain dew might be a great move. If you don't go overboard, I mean so does that every aid station it pretty much every race really yeah. So it's definitely something people have identified as useful, but like Since then. I've been that progress talking before with the x endurance You will find they make one with little caffeine in it too. So now I'll, usually, if I want to copy and I'll just use that instead of the non caffeinated one but then I'll do like I'll still delivered a soda such at the end of the race on just to kind of change things up a little bit because that's the other thing too, is like. If you do the same thing: You know after a while, it's like just give me something: different, yeah, well Floyd Mayweather, drink soda after he works out. Oh really, yeah and people like what an idiot and I was like- maybe not. First of all, maybe the best boxer of all time. I'm so definitely not an idiot he's doing something right he's doing something right, and if he's that good, on top of having it diet. I think part of his like terrible died as a joke like you,
cheeseburgers, burgers and chit and show you and say: look mother farm kicking everybody's eating cheeseburgers, but not really really does home in the chefs made some gourmet meal. I mean he has a personal chef. There was a whole article about it recently, but I think that the fueling up with like really heavy sugary drinks after a very hard workout. It's not a bad idea to replenish the glycogen in your muscles yeah. I think that depends. I think, like I think the science is pretty clear if you're on a high carbohydrate or at least a higher carbohydrate diet, that carbohydrate and protein within, like three thousand and forty five minutes of a post, workout is going to be in your best interest people like chocolate, milk for that right, yeah, that's gotten! That's gotten! of like label. Does that perfect ratio of protein with protein sugar yeah, where it's not clear, or at least it's it's getting clearer, like, where the variance there is for someone like my if we following a high fat approach, yeah Anne Anne
we had a little bit of a glimpse into it from some studies, and the interesting thing is what they did. This one study called the faster study and it looked at like it was ten guys who high fat diet and time guys from a high carbohydrate diet and the guys on the they tried to pair him up as twins so like similar, like performance achievements, similar like body metrics and then kind of the two in the the high fat co are actually when they finished that with the one of the work out of the three hour treadmill session, and then they were, they taken, like blood tests and stuff and they had like the oxygen mask and things like throughout the course of it, and they tested things before after and one thing that they saw was like the for the high fat folks actually had this kind of big lake surge of glucose in the blood stream post workout so the thought is like you might not want to double down on that. If you're in add adapted state because, like I mean some
levels this is back to it. Would've been like this is what something I'd like to ask doctor t about. Is that, like you, get these big kind of post workout like blood co spikes on sometimes to the level of like what would look like a type two diabetic, but it's not it's not it's in a different context than what you would see in someone who's just by following a normal diet, where that would be kind of a red flag. An so like to hit the ball with another source of glucose, essentially might not be affecting you the same way. So yeah, it's it's it's interesting stuff, so it's actually like what I've done. Sometimes too is after a big hard work out, if I'm not hungry, I don't always eat right away. I wait for my stomach to come around and, like my body to say you're hungry, just to let all that stuff, go through and then then I'll have, depending on what I'm doing next, like all, if I'm, if I'm take an easy day or couple easy days, I'll go like really low carb, but if I'm going back out that
noon for another workout or the next morning for like a speed session or something that's when maybe I would try to drop it. Little carbohydrate to kind of speed up the glycogen side of things, so I'm ready for that. Next one will Zach you're bad mother fucker. I wish you all the best- and I really appreciate you coming down here and talking to us and it's fascinating what you do, man thanks for having me on. Thank you. Thank you. Very much man. Thank you. Alright folks, we did it thanks for tuning into the podcast good time these mutherfuckers. Thank you to on it, go to Onn. It used the code, Word Rogan and you will save ten percent off any an all supplements. Thank you also new policy genius the easiest way to compare life insurance online. The easiest way to compare topic. Insurers find the best value for you, youpolicygenius dot, com, sales pressure, zero hassle and it's free, why Fuckaround go to policy genius dot. Now we're also
brought to to brought to you by Netsuite, get Netsuite's guide, crushing the five barriers to growth when you go Netsuite, DOT, com, Slash Rogan, you can download it or crushing the five barriers to growth today, get that guy for free that dot com, Slash Rogan, that's Netsuite S. U I t n e t s? U, I t dot com forward, Slash Rogan and that's it. We did it. Those fun, podcast, interesting, dude, crazy, the they're, all crazy? You have to be to do that should. Thank you appreciate guys much love to you all. Bye, bye.
Transcript generated on 2019-10-30.