« The Joe Rogan Experience

#1136 - Hamilton Morris

2018-06-26 | 🔗
Hamilton Morris is a writer, documentarian, psychonaut and scientific researcher. His show "Hamilton's Pharmacopeia" is available on VICELAND and iTunes.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
hello friends happening on the road this weekend tucson on friday and boise on saturday i think tucson is basically sold out there's a small handful tickets and there's some tickets left for boise but they're going fast it's a big spot boys is a giant fucking arena i've never been and i'm very excited to go been idaho i'm fuckin pump though i keep your great things i'm excited i got new dates coming out i'm gonna be tomorrow actually they go on sale tomorrow for columbus ohio swear young jamie's for that in september that subject bore fourteenth and the night before that the thirteenth in philly at the tower theatre so the thirteenth and fourteen
those tickets are going on sale tomorrow june twenty seventh in their only going on sale through it's what i was pre sale jammies password strange that albeit joe broken dot com for all our good stuff ticket dates in toronto sell out quick almost gone that is september twenty nine don't sloop this episode gas is brought to you by new sponsor black rifle coffee i've been drinkin this shit for awhile and its an awesome i got it sent to me by me good pow john dudley who has a knock on roast over it but lack rifle coffee their founded by farmers special operations vets who combined their love of coffee with the great outdoors and black rifle coffee delivers back asked rose to order coffee right to your doorstep is guaranteed you're getting fresh premium quality coffee with every order in addition to great coffee and gear black rife
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anyone who signs for the month of june we'll get a free package of high quality bacon in every butcher box for the light time of their subscription outrageous they also have four range organic chicken and heritage breed pork that's old world pork for they bread out all the fat and flavour to make pork the other white it's delicious pork again month of june only new subscribers will receive free bacon for life ten dollars off by going to put box dot com and using the discount coat rogan and last but not least were also brought by stamps dot com if you have never use dams dot com but you use the post office what a joy this as for you to hear listen to my folks u s postal service is a very important tool for any business right we'll stay start com is the easiest way to access all the amazing services the post office and you do it from
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and to the male person or drop are often the mailbox and you're done no need to lease and expensive postage bitter and there are no long term commitments you can't go wrong would stamps dot com is the simplest easier convenient way for use the post office so go to sleep stay calm click on the microphone the top at a homepage and type in j r e that stamps dot com and entered j r b right folks seven years ago i did a podcast this gentleman and we ve always talked about doing to redo because the first time we did it we go we too high but today we did a totally sober and it was fantastic are really enjoy all of his work you can find his television show which is on vice it's called hamilton's pharmacopoeia many many many videos and articles online he's a wealth of information a fantastic and brilliant man please give it up
hamilton marks the job will gain experience with large hamilton moors sobers fuck about you absolutely ass this time so we did it gas seven years ago and most people apparent didn't know how fucked up we were but damn we're here with hamilton mars we should go deep and wages hit that joint till i lost most of my grasp on reality while we're talking a very slippery conversation to hide a form coherent thoughts was just whatever i pieced together was just so you know it was almost like mining a conversation but seven years later you have a new place yeah
beautiful yet we you were at the early days we did it at my house yeah that was way way way back in the day i had no idea really i knew you were of course but i didn't know about your podcast entirely edson clips of you on youtube and it wasn't until i was driving home from that recording and my phone just filled with hundreds of emails that i realise that this is a serious phenomenon that i was not aware of and now i see it's just become huge it's weird thing do it it's it's got the we'll just sort have to show up very strange annette sounds like a false honesty resembling tat but i'm just being totally honest like this thing does itself a lot of it might have to do with the long form begins people are so used to seeing people's opinions condensed unfiltered into these sound bites and snippets and to hear an extended conversation with someone where they can actually tell stories and articulate their opinion
in a new ones careful way so rare i agree it's one of the reasons why dont do those shows any morally panel shows and things like that is so frustrate oates and say i have very little experience with that sort of thing right did doktor eyes last my oars yes and i don't know how any normal person could function and that are of environment i mean i have a tv show so arguably i'm well trained for that sort of thing but unless you're an actor whose prepare a line to say soon as they are when did you there's no do you could function because it's not a genuine conversation it's just an opportunity to launch zero dollars and one cents and sound bytes in an audience applause and also the audience is such a strange element to add to a conversation if you and i were having this conversation exactly in this with this room but to the light the us is an enormous group of people will feel weird we would have to address then we'd have to turn to them it would be
following illuminated applause and laughter science god does the weird as when the zone the warm up guys like ok ready we're coming back from brain comes back from break and the whole of this applause applause applause nobody goes crazing and they create the this environment i was on this discussion about credit i am very familiar with this a minor right now a well yeah just took some might i fuck my knee up the other day i did something and spin stiff and pay folds isoude before i came here and then i just took took six it so see ten wants ten one vessels from china now it good can you grab that bag is a bag the sitting right on the sink to exact what's in it now i get why people might think it's a drug what is a drug yeah fashion but when i took for i was like took two for the first time i took it i took two and a couple times i took two in my feels like a mild stimulant but then
when you get a range of eight to ten pills it's like oh this this fuck you up the stuff the stuff i'd take is been ice organics and see it says it says take two doesn't say the amount of material in the capital seven hundred and fifty milligrams some aquatic graham not quite a crime scene a reasonable amount but they always construct these things in these were dick less dramatic oppositions like it was me verses a woman whose son had died of some kratom so overdose and you know it turns into a thing like what you have to say to this woman whose son died it's like i don't know another people die from have overdoses as well its tragic that this happened have people died from this yes they have to have to take an enormous amount i mean i think a lot of people say
these unrealistic expectations with these drugs where they lay like a drug they want to say it's impossible ride to killing hostile there's no power away if you set that is your standard you'll always fail because people will die doing absolutely everything running having sex deaf aspirin aspirin absolutely theirs nothing in this world that can't find its way into human death so if people want to say and even yoke this obviously people say you can't overdose on canvas and essentially you can't but if you look in the medical literature there are a number of these candidates associated fatalities you know you can debate than endlessly but the point is wanted drug enters a origin of population will be a number of sensitive individuals and someone will die it doesn't mean that the drug is dangerous it means that its unrealistic to set a standard worth anything bad happens to any one we have to decide that the drug is dangerous and should be
and here i agree i mean look water kills people there's a lot of these hazing things where they fraternity kids will be he asked to drink a shit on water in vienna people i'd from a woman died in san jose a few years back from a comment asked you to drink water to get her son like an xbox or something like that mean there's a lot of things that are lethal but the el de fifty four cannabis assorted you literally have to smoke your body weight or something right it's something crazy be very difficult but doesn't mean that you couldn't get so high that you did something really stupid wind up die right yeah specially to pay and upon the person where i live oh variability some bright re exactly in its i think it's also just sort of a bad road to go down people always want to emphasise the safety of thing right in my opinion safety isn't the point it doesn't ultimately matter to me
whether or not something is safe i think we should have the freedom to do dangerous things if we choose were allowed to i'd motorcycles were allowed to shoot guns you're allowed to go guy diving and bungee jumping all those things carry risks but its assume that any adult that does them is aware of this risk see i couldn't grew more i mean it's it's also who is if the society that we limit was just you and i we were the only two people live who are you to tell me what i can do for me to tell you what you can do it's ridiculous and so when you have grown adults telling adele whose informed what they can and cannot do then it becomes a question of well then it becomes an education issue and it becomes a parental issue means exist he can't live your children about the effects of certain drugs because then the not gonna believe you about the really actual the actual dangerous ones brain and this is of course reflected in the so called opiate epidemic yes right now yes there's endless finger pointing everyone wants to find a culprit that's behind all
and the easiest person to blame of course our pharmaceutical companies because everybody hates pharmaceutical companies so why not blame them right but i'm not pro pharmaceutical by any stretch of the imagination but i'm also not anti pharmaceutical either and we you look at the way for example the new york times is covering the opiate epidemic it's always in this town of like documents were uncovered the show that executives purdue pharma were aware that morphine was addictive as early as one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine until like twelve course of course they were aware people known that morphine is addictive for hundreds of years this is old news and is hawaii that doctors were convinced by some letter and the new england journal of medicine that said that oxy content isn't addictive absurd these are all morphine derivatives any adult especially medically trained adults should know that no matter what little very
asian you make on that molecule with its structurally informal ecologically and qualitatively similar to morphine of course it's going to be objective and that in itself isn't even a bad thing it should be ok to give people addictive drugs as well as long as everyone is aware of the risks his lungs understand a protocol you're off of it the you you know there's many people that get on these things and then wind up taking them far longer than theirs posted because it's easy to get hooked we need at least have some sort of responsible direction that these people need to go to to get off of them once thereon them cause get back operations any anything were they prescribe you doses of opiates it's a huge i know many many people have gotten hook because in fact i should tell you that my good friend just and ran his wife i found out about cradle because of you of your show p
had a problem with a shoulder got shoulder soldier surgery they put him on he it was fun up them and is having a really hard time getting off in having the shakes really bad and creators one thing that got him off right and that's not surprising this has been known for a very long time in thailand and that was actually there in that it was originally prohibited or an affair aware of that but because the government taxed opium and people started using krypton then they made khatami leaves out the right way to say it is people say cradle you're the only one of her sacred tom people in its a tie word people on thailand called cretonne people newest click create em it's it's also they have you know is maybe it's tom so they re not ngo that forever khatami's closer you did it would be weird ahead but i feel as you know like people who say ecuador argentina but it is cretonne ok so what
article or something close to that it's that can create em right and so the reason was made illegal was because the fact that it was pinching some of the profits of the opium trade yes while yeah that's fucked and so this is known for a long time that it helps people get off more addictive opiates and how does it do well it's an boyd itself in a lot of people don't want to admit or acknowledge that but i think we need to get beyond this idea that drugs are inherently bad or opiates are inherently bad just because the ones that were aware of have a lot of problems you know in sums medicinal chemistry inform pharmacology and all this are still very primitive state and there's so much learn so were mostly giving people these derivatives of more seen that have been around for a hundred years and there are better things were going to continuously discover less addictive treatments for pain and i think that the alkaloids incur tom are a step
direction in which is so tragic that they're trying to now make it illegal because this is something that as far as i can tell has genuinely helped an enormous number of people reduce their intake of more effective and more dangerous opiates with things that i felt a mean and again my dose was not extremely high but when i was on it i was very coherent i was clear it was clear to me that was affected by something but it felt kind of good it didn't feel bad it felt a little a little uneasy like a little like world this would work feels a weird right now but it did not feel i guess i was impaired like i know a lot of you but who take an exercise like i have a friend he'll take ten pills an exercise which is just seems kind of fuckin crazy he has but he says he has a great work out rightly taken a step before works out
i mean it seems to lend itself to a lot of different applications in thailand it's used almost exclusively for that sort of purpose in this house it's a drug that labor is used so that they can no collectively tax for rubber trees and just get their job done that's what it's about i mean that's what opiates or about for a lot of the world both in the united states it's in africa and thailand is you know people live hard lives and then manual labor is painful and repetitive and difficult and anything that makes them a little bit more manageable is a very important tool for humans i always felt like people that heroin are opiates are something that we're on a very short road to death that that was my purse option when i was a kid and then i had a friend whose along sherman they worked on the docks bring they would bring fish in an filet the fish for market dumb he worked with a guy that every day at lunch the guy would go cop you'd get his hair
when he would shoot it up in his car and then go back to work and i was like you'd go back to work gap every day like everyday shot up and every day he worked again who's never late nope just did is work while well i didn't think you could do that i thought you did heroin the next thing you know you just be on the floor in a fetal position in your own urine and just would fall apart and die right yeah there's this idea that people sometimes referred to as pharmacological determinism that drug has to do a certain thing so alcohol has two sedate and disinhibit you heroin has to adapt you and make you a slave to it and kill you cocaine has to be a euphoric thing that's done a parties is also very addictive pc p hast make you strip nude and run around in cars and in fighting cops and punching holes in wooden fences
but when you look at this you know anthropologists have looked at certain drugs are used cross culturally like alcohol and what you find is this whole idea of pharmacological determinism is fundamentally flawed drugs behave differently indifferent cultures depending on the set in setting of the user and so you find all sorts of insulin is that our major exceptions to these rules that we have set up for these various drugs for example pc p which is arguably one of the most ubiquitous maligned drugs in the world and no one can imagine that pc peas medicinal but even to this day pc peas and schedule to
not schedule one like cannabis and lsd schedule to can still be prescribed actually and that's because it had a history of medicinal use there is even pcb psychotherapy in the uk and in the fifties so this is something the most people wouldn't believe but to those patients or taking it then there is none of this cultural associations pc being a drug that causes psychosis or makes you strip nude who simply another tool for a psychiatrist to use and help people release repressed met freeze or traumas that they were afraid to talk about when sober or were seen that now with india may right i mean and also ketamine ketamine you being used as an actual tool for psychotherapy predicted for people depressions having really good results my my friend excuse me neil brennan whose
whereas comedian said struggles of depression here he got great relief from mile from taking ketamine right and what i think is really interesting as you know this is often packaged as a sort of medallic renaissance but i think in a larger context it's a drug facilitated psychotherapy renaissance because this was not just limited to psychedelic people did something called narco analysis where they would give people sedatives like proper for the trip that killed michael jackson or various barbarity pirates were various other drugs and the relaxing effect would allow people to talk more openly to a therapist and was considered very effective now this idea of a psychiatrist injecting you with a drug in order to help you talk about your problems its unheard it i don't think anyone does it anymore but it used to be very common and i think a return to that is why do we really beneficial yeah i
i agree with you i think the right drugs with the right cases in the right people and i think we ve gotta get past the schedules that when you things like marijuana suicide in especially dm two which your own body produces a schedule one drug and the famous too this weekend align we're all out with when it comes to the empty just stupid it's it's still bid that these things are schedule one when you're saying there's no medical benefit whatsoever or medical application for cannabis fucking crazy when summit meeting wanna have something that really actively promote so distrust and law enforcement the schedule of drugs is one of the best ones because when you look something like marijuana and you see that's a schedule one drug that that its infuriating to people that gain huge benefits from cannabis mean people that have going through therapy people that have no jobs interaction
pressure from glaucoma me in go down list over and over and over again pee wee kids that have epilepsy is so many people that have had great benefit for particular edible cannabis people that have seizures mean you can go on and on and on its just it's an amazing plant and the that demonized because a summer particular propaganda from the nineteen thirty that still some our another clung on in two thousand eighteen zero all information we have now with the internet and the fact that can the bus is still schedule one you have assholes jeff sessions still things like good people don't smoke marijuana like this is crazy talk is easy but keep in mind it is just about a hundred years ago that alcohol was prohibited in united states undertook thirteen years to reverse that and that was alcohol there's no drug more integrated into our ultra than alcohol that took thirteen years traverse what was it like back then
must have been madness when alcohol is was illegal in the cops would come in and jack booted dogs would knock over gin mills and bust open kegs whiskey and spill it all out like what the fuck was that like it is is disastrous but i think what interesting about that is it is a worthwhile experiment to give them the benefit of the doubt it was worthwhile to see because on some sense you could say that a mission has a certain logic to it you could say drugs cause problems so if we just me all the drugs illegal then maybe those problems will disappear but it didn't work the experiment failed and there's nothing wrong with the failed experiment but it's a problem if you keep repeating it over and over and over again for a hundred years looking for a different result bright and then go to other drugs and go will this one was try this one make this one illegal and it's a test
bull pr situation for the police as well if i were a police officer i'd be the biggest opponent of the war on drugs and of any one in the government because when you think about what is the average person in new york city love a fire fighter they love firefighters but they hate cops why is that it's because of the drug or because a fire fighter isn't going to hurt you for something that wasn't really a crime to begin with through some kind of victimless crime a fire fighter is just there to help you to save you if you're in true pull in the same would be true of police officers if it weren't for the drug war ideally there's little more laxity to assure the sermon and certainly more complexity when it comes to beans shootings in years longer xilai but i mean the stop and free i've read something about stopping frisk in new york when they had when they had done instituted the most that was drugs most of it catching people marijuana which is just focus it just stay you think you might be straight why
get over here that's where these laws have functioned from the very beginning i mean if you look at drug law in the uk it tends to be very black and white something is legal or illegal if it's legal it can be sold in stores because its legal if it's illegal it can't be sold anywhere in the eu steve instead created this nebulous far reaching grey area where there's all sorts of things that are made be illegal kind of illegal do it but don't get caught and in its created an ability for the government to selectively process cute people whenever they want if they want their that seems to be lessening i mean when you have similar jeff sessions in office it's very disturbing but then from says things like he's very strong states rights too you know ass marijuana laws things on those aren't you never we ve
incredulous hit i suppose i am a bit incredulous when it comes to trump doing anything good bye i forgive you told him the people love him more if he did things good he would do things good that's probably true i think someone he trusted said i think that is what i think we gotta get somebody in deep will give you the more and better get somebody stood back rubs it gets by looking at the time to take them i doubt about it just now what is the thing that'll help is also the separation between the drug users and the policy makers yes and one thing that i am certain will help and it's sort of tragic that this is the case but its capitalism it's the corporate decision of these drugs is cannabis you know when it was hippies and counterculture having
marches down the streets of new york holding up for twenty signs it doesn't i suppose have all that cloud in the eyes of law makers but when you have guy from yale business school who's never smoked we'd who says this is a serious business operators pretty near we're gonna make a big and gets investors invest millions and millions of dollars into it hires lobbyists plays the game like a capitalist then the laws change and i wish that weren't the case but it is in its tragic for the people who did fight and did go to prison and did sacrifice that than these business school guys come along and rip off the benefits but that's the way it works yeah that is the way it works and that's ok i mean it too weird path it's a weird path but as long as we can get legalization mohammed percent for their path i just think
that might be the only way in this weird country this country's so enamoured with money i mean we're so enamored with money in profits and even for dying people even old warren buffett invested shit tons of money in warehouses to sell to to grow cannabis in colorado when the law your past me decades a hundred fifty thousand years old is worth billy in dollars and he's like who gives a shit more money now more and more and more i mean even when they're really old there their massively motivated by profit yes and i think the same will be who forsake it alex and will probably be true for all of these things because you need to have lobbyists here need to have this sort of typical white collar support to push things forward i agree i just i don't see any other way around it right now mean that the real hope is that cannabis nodded bull
get rid of capitalism but that we'll figure out it's hard to where those things would classes on right yes they do to our is talking about the glasses dig in your head that cannabis wool but did not just cannabis but campbells will open the door to all these different substances that allow people to have a lot to gain a greater perspective this is the old my goal in my opinion is to give people the to step outside the momentum of their lives and look at things with fresh eyes and make clear decisions does one of them ass things that i think that drugs provide is that these sites they'll drugs in particular provide an escape from the momentum of this life that you ve created or that you found yourself a part of its very difficult for people to stop behaviour patterns to stop and look at themselves objectively and sort of reasoning regroup and reassess and this is one of them ass things about cannabis and about
suicide and a lot of these other psychedelic drugs is that it gives you this new found perspective that allows you to reconsider things yes absolutely and i think with you know ketamine in the treatment of depression it's a similar idea because depressed people become used to these very ingrained patterns of thinking and anything can break you out of that they can shake it up for a minute and maybe give you a different perspective i think is inherently therapeutic yeah i think so as well and i think i'm hoping that's what i see in this is what i believe i see is there we're changing our perceptions of i had a conversation with a friend of mine the day about marijuana where we are talking about how you used to hide whether or not you did it from certain people and now that group of people that you have to hide it from smaller and smaller and that it seems like everyone
casually smokes marijuana now in our circles that so many people to do this a few the don't sober people whatever but its way more common whereas ten if ten years ago this was something you hid if you had a good job if you had a family is not something you want to people know about and what i think is really interesting is that in and of itself changes the nature of the cannabis experience so think if somebody uses cannabis in a culture that supports it that approves of it their experience will be better by virtue of that fact right there is a certain shame that a lot of people feel when using anti drug i've for whenever crazy reason feel it a little bit with cannabis it's you know a little just a hair of i should be i should be studying should be reviewed and should be you no more focus this is a little hedonistic its little comfort oriented i should be working harder but that's i think just a vest
it is of this propaganda that i've been fed or something like that or maybe it's true but i understand from one perspective why the candidates culture drums the benefits of canada so hard and it cures all disease it it's good for you that occurs cancer all the stuff because if you have that in your mind at the very least it's going to reduce that sort of inter or shame that you might feel and makes the entire experience healthier and more beneficial because we do construct these limitations we construct these experiences to some extent so it you decide the cannabis is dissociative truck that's hedonistic and comfort oriented and will take you away from here possibilities and that's what it will become but if you decide like terence mechanic did that is an intellectual catalyst that it will facilitate your ability to read and learn and think and right then it will become that is well yeah it's it's a weird one right because people better people that take it that are prone to paranoia or that are dealing
it's like some difficult issues in their life right now that the perhaps try to avoid it becomes an uncomfortable experience whereas people that are be and have a good time and in a good plays the marijuana what sort of enhanced thou givest loving warm feeling of of comfort in a like a sort of substance of your existence and it's gonna be ok right think even the paranoia is like a sort of a sort of meme you could say a sort of vestige of this propaganda that makes people afraid in the same idea vain is the bad trip i think the concept of a bad trip is a very damaging concept because and i know from personal spirits i never really used psychedelic in high school with the exception of salvia because i was terrified of a bad trip talk talked to friends who'd describe bad trips in his heels it's a bad bad trip it's really bad
it's scary everything oh that's terrible i could i would never want to bad trip i'm never going to touch these things because a bad trip would be too much for me to tolerate and then using psychedelic i realized there's no such thing as a bad trip more than a bad meal or a bad relationship or a bad day mean having an occasional bad thing in life doesn't soppy from doing things like eating or having relationships are living typically so what do you mean by this there's no such thing as a bad trip yes it is no such thing as a bad meal i'm saying that there is such a thing as a bad meal bike but it wouldn't prevent you from tripping and i think that even the bad or wooden bring from eating rather sorry about that but but i think even these trips already can be difficult are beneficial and our learning experience in the same way that a bad meal could be you learned not to go to that restaurant or might learn something about what makes you sick or what to be careful of in the future you know if you are approach life from a non fearful perspective where are you
intention is to learn then you can extract benefit from almost any experience and these difficult psychedelic experiences i genuinely believe and this is what is maybe the hardest thing to communicate about psychedelic is that it's the difficult ones that are often the best those are the ones that really tee she something and when you are trying to talk about psychedelic with people never use them it's not a good selling point to say oh you know the best thing that can happen is you're gonna think you're gonna die but that is arguably the best thing that can happen to think that you're going to die but his that's a confrontation with the overarching fear the fear that generates all other fears and if you conquer that fear then your life certainly improve but what is one thing that's exhort of genuine genuine lee universally accepted as a beneficial experience is a near death experience sort of universally accepted as a transformative moment in people's lives
this near death experience and i realize while i gotta at my shit together after that heart attack i see that life is a gift and i changed the way i think about things and i started calling people that i loved and tell them that i love them this is the same even get a near death experience from cannabis you just don't ever die technical ability do i mean it the death of so many perceptions and so many things about your life especially from we'll cannabis which i think is probable one of the least understood and most potent things that people are consuming on a daily basis i can't tell you how many times i've given someone edible marijuana and they're fucking convinced that it's been laced with something awful and that they're going to die but then afterward they come out of it and they like some work to do the only way i would disagree with you is people that are prone to psychotic breaks yeah yeah because there
there there is absolute genuine connection between people who have us slippery hold on reality and some experiences with psychedelic said led them down a bad road that's true it can it's strasser and like all stressors it can precipitate a psychotic break they ve done pretty large scale epidemiological analyses of psychedelic drug users versus the non psychedelic drug using population and the incidence of mental illness isn't any higher so i dont think that you can argue that psychedelic cause mental illness but you can and in some measures it seems actually reduce it in terms of things like alcoholism substance abuse disorders bite but it can be a strasser that would precipitate such an episode in susceptible individual and i had a very traumatic informative experienced myself for my best friend had a psychotic break while i was with him tripping so i've seen it
first hand i know exactly what it looks like you i've had friends you have real bad experiences to with screaming and yelling and then dissociated over than afterwards become very strange and have a really hard time with reality for a bit the i've never seen someone have a complete psychotic break is that he never recovered never he never recovered use my best friend at the time and he never got so he was fine before the sagrada yes jesus christ light again you know it's that happened earlier so now he still forked yes but again i know i've typically don't tell that story in public because its could be misinterpreted as a scare story you know i don't it's impossible to prove the counterfactual would it happened without psychedelic or certainly i can't say all i know is that he took a very high dose of the citizen
astor and had this episode use hospitalized and he was not the same afterwards so i am aware that this is something that happens but it also typically happens in early twenties late teens the same time that people typically have psychotic breaks and develop schizophrenia yeah the instances of schizophrenia in people who used cannabis are cannabis in particular but about other second but i would imagine a very similar their exactly the same as the end an answer of schizophrenia in non using populations it's like one percent one percent across the board seem to have issues with schizophrenia and there's the rub the question is how many of those people could win is it avoidable like what if your friend had never done that and instead had now become a marathon runner or something you know on some other outlets for his energy
he has never gone down that road we don't know it's impossible yes it's impossible so i think it's very important to talk about that though and with further research perhaps we can isolate genes you know like they have city now they have taken an analysis of your genes and then term and whether or not something like football would be a dangerous path for you because you have higher probability of developing see to eat it would be wonderful if they figured out a way to do that with cell simon or with cannabis or with anything else and be able to recognise the potential lee six two psychotic breaks and to a host of different mental disorders that could possibly be triggered by high doses yes this is one of so many things that needs to be done and that's you know evans very excited about all this clinical research that's happening right now i'm excited about it as well but on one level it is very politically oriented
research in other things it they're looking at have actually typically been done before not all of it but the aim is to firmly establish these things have been known for a long time suicide in occasions mystical type experience or empty amaze useful for treating ptsd or suicide and has an anti addictive effect these are things that people have known for a little while but now it's about proving it but i'm really looking forward to getting deeper into these serious questions about you know exactly how these drugs interact with various sub types of serotonin receptors because i think that they're going to be very important tools for understanding conscious yes as a whole year would also be interesting knowing how they react to different diet you know when p o r you know when you're eating certain types of foods that are bad for your body
really be curious to see what kind of a fact that has mean when when you have real scale research that goes over really in important variables in terms of human health and then you add in these different substances whether it sir simon are cannabis or whatever it is it's it's gonna be interesting to see how the body reacts to these various perturbing these various changes of your state yeah and that's you know traditionally in a lot of these indigenous groups the diet plays a big in the way that the drugs administered and i think were slowly reduced covering a lot of things have been known for tens may be hundreds maybe thousands of years in some of these indigenous groups have you had the chance to see him any thy new show when you know not how i think you'd like it i'm sure
i'd like to ultra yeah this is i think it's a lot that an arrow near awesome then but i ve no i had the opportunity to look at the way salvian is used in the mountains of four hocker and peter native american parity use in all these different things and yet it do so much to be learned from all these traditions that are not reflected in the current clinical climate because they can't be but i think that that can it be a part of it is slowly integrating these other alkaloids that are present in the plants see what role they play in the same way that the initial medical illustration of cannabis was marin all which is just teach see in sesame oil but now there is increased understanding of the way these accessory can of lloyd's modulate the t v c experience or whether teach sees even the primary therapeutic agent for certain disorders and i imagine the same thing will be true for parity and for the iboga alkaloids and probably even for some of the chemicals founded mushrooms
so when you're doing this show have you had any problems have you had any push back again what you're doing or any any issues with it being on vice i've an enormous amount of freedom but ultimately i have very very little to complain about when it comes to censorship there was the way the show got started the actual tv shows sort of an interesting story where they were starting up vice land and producer whose now gone i gave me this deck of drug stories they're doing there all kind of terrible scare stories like the new drug bergamo dragon lie it's killing teens and new drug roma dr barroso yeah what is it really fascinating compound developed by the chemist david e nicholls who found that that these confirmation constrained benda fury on amphetamine derivatives are like
very high potency deo be derivatives anyway it's a super potent psychedelic amphetamine as a cool try cyclic structure ha been it looks like a dragon fly the molecule looks like a dragonfly kind of an it's got a very high isn't it super super potent and very very long lasting also it bit lent itself to scare stories you know people is a vassal constrictor people who take very high doses other and occasionally you'd have to amputated finger something like that but again you know this isn't because the drug is bad it's because people used it irresponsibly this is innocent people have so much difficulty understanding for so eager to blame drug for all of our problems drugs have never hurt anyone there just inanimate constellation of carbon and hydrogen nitrogen oxygen they don't jump out of their bags and vials in it your serotonin receptors or dopamine transfer or anything like that so this is just too
weird pattern that we ve done repeatedly over time if you read the new michael pawnbroker no use on yeah i'm in right now yeah it's great yeah great but one thing that i thought was interesting about it is that he put a lot of emphasis on the a of psychedelic on leary and leary almost certainly played a role but i think it's slightly ironic that he's a journalist and didn't really go that deep into the role that journalists played in all this which was humongous journal messrs sculptors of public opinion and it became the standard way of reporting on any of these things to say that their bad to sensationalize it into not have any consideration for what that would do because any time a journalist right some scare story they can really mess drug policy in a serious way might seem like nothing like others a bunch of people in brooklyn and they overdosed on some obscure
synthetic canada annoyed m be food vinegar who cares about an beef rabbinic no big deal say that it turns people into zombies and if he gets thrown to schedule one who cares not a big deal well that's a very short sighted way of thinking about all this because that's exactly what happened with psychedelic and then we're not learning from the mistakes of the past that just because something it's fun to sensationalize and talk about how dangerous it is at this moment doesn't mean that ten years from now we're gonna recognise it as serious therapy that potential and we made a big mistake outlawing it and i think what does that also comes from this sort of us versus damn mentality that people have for its cannabis is good synthetic canopy noise are bad what synthetic canopy noise don't have to be bad for cannabis to be good cannabis can be good without something else being bad to counterbalance it you don't need to hate something to justify your love of cannabis and this whole hatred of synthetic canada noise i think is totally misdirected because these are products of prohibition that
most people wouldn't even want to use in the first place and when they do use them they don't know what they're taking they don't know what dose their consuming and so of course they're having bad experiences that would happen with almost any drug caffeine included if people just consumed enormous unmeasured doses without having any idea what they were getting into and so there thrown in schedule one what happens if third years from now once the therapeutic potential of cannabis lloyd's being really seriously explored we find out that amby rebecca that everyone sang turned homeless people into zombies in brooklyn in two thousand seventeen turns out too activated certain sub type of the c b one reception its especially useful for parkinson's disease or something like that and then we're gonna regret having done that so i think people have to be very careful tom you say anything negative about a drug you have to be very very careful because implications can be enormous i think that the best stance and all this is to not speak
ill of drugs is addressed about like a true drug enthusiasm but is not a problem also with just what journalism is like asking a comedian to talk about something but not make fun of it it's what their job in industry sense is to get people excited about things and i don't know whether you'd say the lazy way out or the common approach is to say something the scarce people mean that's that's what click bait is mostly about neither outrage or fear that's true but there's a of richness in truth i agree but it's hard to sell started several that regional hard to sell i think people are lazy you know rises idea that a lot of people have that journalism is organised by some malevolent rupert murdoch type puppeteer whose telling everyone to you go off and you say that cannabis causes car accidents run you go off and you say this evil thing about this and say that alcohol is did you see when i jones on my part cason got high with me
our moroccan i and when it came up in his trial for is a divorce he said that george soros puts he task marijuana every year to see how much george soros is influencing the level of th this is excuse people love these ideas in ideas of the puppeteer malevolent puppeteer because it denies the visual agency but the reality and i say this as a journalist who worked at many different publications not just vice is and this is a difficult reality to swallow is that people are free to say whatever they want most of the tunnels and that journalists choose to report on things this way that is true but it is also true that they like i've been a part of stories that we have talked to the author of it and they said but this was manipulated by the editor the editor monopoly the title the chain but the greeks
yeah perspective but the right it's true like their day outgrown under an article about me and they called me a psychedelic warrior and i said the guy roger what the fuck is that was laughin negroes dude i did not write that it gets hold of it tries to make it more salacious it becomes something that's more it's more likely for people the buyer click right especially with headlines that yet that is true and the real problem is this sort of outrage culture and comment culture that has emerged provides incentive for truth because suppose someone were to write an article about this conversation we're having right now and it could say hamilton morris's cried tom be illegal or something like that then that will get them so much more engagement because where you have always using fuck hamilton more heated he's a trader how dare he say that it should be eagle did it didn't watch it and then you have other p
arguing those using will listen to the interview hey you actually never said anything about that and listen carefully to what you say and then you create this whole engagement a bigger engagement for doing the wrong thing then you'd get for doing the right thing true but the initial statement is much stick ear the initials statement of hamilton morris is a bad guy because he thinks create him should be illegal or quotas should be illegal that is what more people gonna pay attention to far less people read the retraction then the initial or this one of the real more insidious things about printing things at her certainly untrue purposely that people do duty things that are untrue with the caviar that they could just pray retraction that maybe thirty percent of the people to read the original article going to read that the initial imprint is what's gonna stick with people even if you someone calls you a rapist ok and then it turns out the called your rapist was lying there we heard you are rapists furs they still have their head oh he's array
i heard you from rapist right it's it's very deep go to get slippery ideas at a people's heads of somebody rights article saying that you're against illegal immigration of certain drugs nay they start looking to you is being compromised it's the influence people have today can't be understated because the reach is so powerful the reach of any article any video any it's it's so significantly greater than any other sort of distribution of information in the history of human beings that the potential for it impacting large groups of people is so huge now yes and this is the is all that is also that the viewers have a lot of power and i think that in some sense they dont white recognise the nature of that power its i'd be voting with your dollar if you spend all your time commenting hate fully on things you don't like you are actively encouraged
the production of more of that thing that you dont like if you like something you need to engaged what you approve of more because every time you engage with something you dislike advertisements are sold and it has been incentivize to do that bad thing that's a really see dickie thing we had this culture where everyone loves to out showed outrage and virtues ignoring show that they are on the right side and all the stuff constantly to say hey stepped back you're just feeding the problem yeah i think there's also a problem with a lot of what people are doing during the day is something they i don't want to do a lot of appeal for doing some job that they don't enjoy in doing that job they have freedom to go online in this state of feeling like shit about one of their doing tailed enjoy complaining about stuff and so the red things and type things in getting gauge and things and there's some sort of sport to getting pissed off about stuff instead of just
bending your time doing things you actually enjoy it seems so simple it sounds like a simple solution but if you can figure out a way to actively or things are going to piss you off and seek things are going excite une intrigue you you can it be healthier happier person in does not ultimately what everybody wants i want to be happier do you want appear before so why do we seek out shit epistles off because it becomes a sort of it action is drug like in and of itself i mean i see it arguments is that people are frittering away there time on earth engage these endless common battles that no one reads and and it's a very dark reality but it is also something that driving the current culture of journalism that we're truth doesn't matter as much all the matters is engagement right right it's just clicks is just click money it's interesting that you were saying something about you
being inanimate objects of drugs on actually kill people it's no funny how dry enthusiasts parallel gun enthusiasm with their arguments it's really the same freedom argument it's really and i'm in an interesting perspective because i live in new york unlike whatever just a nerdy guy that doesn't let me guess you live in williamsburg i do think surprise let's go office out i will close the opposite but by i have no interest in guns are not so really easy for me to say oh look there is this i the shooting and all these people died and in this other guy got shot and do these things really causing a lot of problems let's get rhythm because it has an impact me that's all you have to be the most careful because that the worst thing you can possibly do is make just means about how other people should conduct their lives based on your own preferences which people do all that
i am so you hear someone so i dont like cannabis i don't like it smoke a why should it be legal because people prison for it because it ruins people's lives who aren't your own and you have to think about people that aren't you and so it's very difficult i'm so gun control issues because this i'm faced with that exist same issue where it would be so easy for me to say garrett of em all it has an impact me i don't like guns but i dont want to falling that same trap yet it the trap and its it also sort of highlights house slippery life is in general that these so that we look for these ones and zeros they don't necessarily existent lot of subjects yeah there's there's a lot a people that have done bad things that have also done great things and that gets weird too i would just human beings in general where we're not work were complex creatures and to just categorize something is negative or positive its doors
lot of positive things you could find with drugs is a lot of negative things he could find the drugs to end they mere human behavior dissolve a positive and negative inhuman behaviour yes and back to this this journalistic issue in the coverage of drugs i mean one that worries me about the way cannabis and create harm and psychedelic are presented is that it's always couched in their safe their therapeutic their spiritual their historical but that isn't the point even if those things are true and there's some debate eventually someone will find a chink in their armour someone will die maybe they're not having been used as as you thought they were used maybe they don't always work therapeutically so then what do you go back prohibition no that's why i think you need to emphasise cognitive liberty unita emphasise people's right to explore these alternate states of consciousness regardless of whether or not their therapeutic received for traditional or spiritual the point isn't that it's safe
or any of these other things the point is that if you want to live in free society you have to be allowed to take a certain amount of risk yeah that sets a big point that's a very big point and i think a really fits well with europe description of the things that people are allowed to do that our legal that are very dangerous like race our driving bungee jumping all these things that we just allow them to do we don't think twice about it using a parachute all that crazy shit we would just openly and nobody saying hey we should ban skydive there's no one saying that the fucking a lot of people die skydiving man it's too can dangerous pursuit we don't see the care we see care about drugs because we think that somehow or another either our children or someone we know is going to be insidiously infected with these things are going to get into their lives and fuck them up and i think the real problem
that is education does the real problem that i was extremely fortunate in a weird way to see someone with a coke addiction miles in high school good friends cousin who got really fucked up cocaine when he was a couple years older than me and watched his life fall apart and i remember thank you when i was little like while i don't want to touch that shit like cockades fuck and terrible and then from then i have never done cocaine but it's because of that education because of sin i think real education is something fuckin tough thing because you don't really just get it from knowing information you have to see things we have to talk to people experienced things europe if someone talks bout psychedelic someone teaches about psychedelic but they have no experience an actual psychedelic states personally it's a very high low conversation
certain amount of education has to be from real life experience oh yeah absolutely and the other thing is just again this is a day of farmer collage goal determinism like i had a friend that was very very very seriously addicted to cocaine and had the resources two immense quantities every single day and had always say well you know i try heroin i know it's all over for me i know that will be the last straw some never touching that stuff and he didn't but my own perspective you know i've essentially tried everything and if you really just think about these things you can actually learn for example i've tried here when once i didn't think was that interest did you do it injecting no snort i started was a work it was boring i think boring
opiates are very interesting drugs psychologically you know if i were to be totally honest i think the cannabis is more euphoric and has so few side effects yogurt has horrible constipation they cause all kinds of ways sweating problems i don't think there especially pleasant drugs romanticize so much in our culture that people think that's it heroin the ultimate high or maybe it isn't maybe it's not even that great at all maybe it's garbage and doesn't even matter and that's the same way i feel about snorted cocaine i don't even think it's a good drug it's an issue of it so addictive you ve gotta stay away from it damn good it's not good it's not an enjoyable high has short duration you didn't your bad almost immediately afterwards it's a flawed substance same is true of alcohol think as well alcoholism were easily flawed molecule it's terrible no drug that i can think of causes hang over of that type where there's a toxic metabolites that
reasons you the following day doktor carr heart was trying to explain to me what that is an essentially you saying that when you are getting a hang over it's you body reacting to the addictive properties of alcohol that you're getting addicted alcohol almost almost immediately that your body is compensating for that and then these this this this hang over is not just you being dehydrated it's also your body withdrawing from alcohol i would i am not familiar with any evidence for then we as doktor carr again tried to brilliant forum when i first moves in love rack are yet he dialogue respect form but i mean there there's a i'd have to look at its source for that you'd have to also was look at the way described exert pride butchered it ok but there's an alternate explanation that even simpler which is simply that alcohol is material into a chemical assets held to hide the toxic so and without calling
very very weak drug by weight your consuming insane amounts in terms of the number of molecules you're in cannes insane quantities of the drug so all this act tell the hide accumulates in your body and has directly toxic effect is there a way to counteract the mitigate the effects the yes there are four who is the ways to do it i haven't experimented with any of them myself because i don't really like alcohol that much to begin with is in a glued asylum that's a that's something that allows your body to process it more easily it would have to be sending that prevents the specific conversion and have done on the top of my car what about crocodile you ever fuck with that this is another perfect example so you you take a drug like crocodile and its sounds hordes the internet's draw the fear drug yet people are left behind every scare stories there's nothing if you blame what that is cocoa do so there's a scare story that i believe it was in moscow
somewhere in russia in its wisdom hitting the noose around two thousand four not later two thousand ten something like that i don't know and and the idea was that this is the worst stop it alter addictive inject it and then you lose a limb and you have profound the croesus all around the injection site and this is the worst drug most addictive drug of all time while the drug itself is called desert morphine and its use medicinal there's nothing especially addictive or dangerous at all that doesn't morphine the problem is that people are injecting comply lee impure reaction mixtures it had all of the components from this this is the hadn't been removed including phosphorus immensely toxic so you have people basically reporting on
i ve phosphorus toxicity as if it were a result of this drug when it's a completely separate issue and this well you see when you look at all of these things is never the drug any drugs scare stories never the drug you always have to look for the root cause because it's never the drug there's never been a drug in history and that is why if you look at the d a list of controlled substances it's not dangerous drugs that are controlled its enjoyable trucks something like tat trot o talks and the chemical and tougher fish that's not a controlled substance or some regulations in terms of how much you can purchase but is not controlled substance secret talks in the most potent known neurotoxic controlled substance lead is in a controlled substance mercury is controlled substance mercuric chloride
there's an uncontrolled substance all of the deadly poisons cyanide isn't a controlled substance it's not about what safe and what's dangerous it's about what people like to use with enjoyable what is the root of i think it's you know a puritanical idea that that any sort of euphoria is bad for you is listed as a side effect in some medications we assume that it's a bad thing to radio area sector for your diarrhea yeah that is a strange thing like that's going to it's going to cut back productivity and make you a lazy near do well and just become of a burden on society that's that's a common common way of describing people use drugs shore in this fundamental idea that sobriety is good yes you know you look on instagram people post selfie and say six months
over guys thank you so much and tons of congratulations because its virtue because your accomplish something you're not using drugs whereas other cultures that would not be the case people would you say oh you decided not to work with a certain medicine that it's an interesting choice not in accomplishment saying was it cow kings bury their was saying that how much he hates the term plant medicine or was it dennis they was tile you dont like the term plant medicine i dont you well dubai visit so weird pretentious yes yes i know what people call i'll ask of the medicine or year total additives i mean i wouldn't you don't hate it a lot of these are more flowery terms again theology and i just don't use them myself but i don't hate it would you're you know people like you are very important and i am a big fan but
i think one of the reasons why your important as you are a cognisant day of rest he'll drugs like you you understand what they actually do you could explain them to the layman or you could do eight them with someone who was a doktor perhaps that wanted to talk about the day other men you understand all the various aspects of it i think a tremendous amount of ignorance when it comes to drugs drug consumption what is a drug i mean how many times have you seen a person with a beer in their hands smoking cigarettes and they don't do drugs it is self can stupid but it's it's so common there is this very very very common aspect of being a person which is these desire to change your mental state and we ve done it throughout history with very substances there's so much stigma attached to it and in one of things but doing lately onstage i'll ask people how many people get pissed tested at work it's fucked
stunning it stunning it's like more than ten percent of the honest appraisal hand like one out and people get your body tested to make sure that while they're not working there than a pudding anything in their body that's prohibited which is crucial horrible invasion of privacy they know they became so popular that in the eighties during one presidential election all the candidates voluntarily had their urine tested to prove that they were sober i mean this is like truly urge you and it's a mess see invades that i say this as someone who's analyzed my own urine in a laboratory before and it's like a strange portal into your own life dear you're going to a stranger everything that you ve consumed is then apparent that it is incredibly is a huge invasion of privacy that we ve just decided is acceptable in you have to be very careful about these things here now agree its and of course a synthetic canada lloyd epidemic if you want to call it that i actually don't want to
that because i hate even the idea of a drug epidemic but the the popularity of synthetic canopy noise is largely driven by the fact that they didn't show up on these urine tests so initially was in the military then it was people who are on parole or probation people who were living hard lives wanted to get high couldn't get high this was a way that they could do it and so the incentivize people point to smoke we'd using completely untasted synthetic canopy lloyd's instead as a direct result of these urine tests it's also just a complete misunderstanding comes to the actual facts and how only last year do you live in testing a person's conscious state testing whether not a person is altered their state of consciousness outside of their their working time it's not like you show up and they could scan your hand and realize your high on marijuana right now it's not what they're doing what they're doing is there
their testing you for something that could lingering your body for weeks after these psychoactive effects of long since god oh yeah or and be the result of passive exposure there is a great scientific article came out a couple of years ago when they found the just passive exposure to canada smoke contaminates your hair with teach see so that all these people who had hair tests who actually had not smoke cannabis but it sounds like an excuse i was just in a room someone else is doing it just being in contact with someone who smoke cannabis could then depend the tv see in your hair and cause you to test positive so these tests aren't even necessarily reliable this is the same problem there is a kind of trend a little while ago no if you saw about this report would get the urine tested for different decline finally let us have neurotransmitter metabolites in their urine and this is supposed to be like a finger print of your mood so they quantify the level of sarah tone in dope amene gab whatever whenever
whatever and then they tell your little low and sarah tone in your pretty depressed actually need to supplement with some five http or something like that very reductive way of thinking about consciousness but the main issue is that you're not testing your brain your testing tessier urine and a lot of these neuro transmitters are biased synthesized in the periphery so just because you have these transmitters in your urine doesn't mean they were ever in your brain doesn't say anything about anything so that's it so juvenile and away it's too is it such a piss poor way of maintaining order checking people's consciousness and make image it that the what you should do is judge people based on productivity via some guy and he showed of work any kicks ass every damn i did what's your secret i get i've worked great feel good having a good time at work zebedee do does
but he day put everything in order and it's just feels good like keep doing what you do and that's how it should be we should be judged base on whether or not whatever we're doing is i mean i guess the real caviar tibet would be people who do speed meant you get pretty productive for a short period of time i'm doing speed but i think the downside of that there's somebody p they are on our world today right would you feelings on that i think that is a very interesting issue because it's amazing when you look at the history of all these things how these issues repeat themselves over and over again so is a problem in the fifties and it's a problem in the sixty cents a problem in the seventies now it's a problem now it's always a problem that were treating as if it were a new thing that people than using amphetamine type stimulants for the better part of a hundred years and people will now the kind of
popular thing to say is he knows didn't you know after all is one carbon adam away from math but here's the flip side math is one carbon away from outer all so this whole idea that math again back to pharmacological determinism the math is a drug that turns you into a toothless insane white trash guys stabbing the walls of the cleaver looking for people there eating and whispering secret messages or something like that like this is just a stereotype that we have created of course there are people like that but the reality is that these stimulants have an ambiguous essential for all sorts of things some people use low doses of methods that are in fact methamphetamine schedule to because to this day it can be and is prescribed as a treatment for adhd in addition to amphetamine which is after all what do they call it when they prescribe des oxen is the brand name for methamphetamine and
after all as the branding from putting in their ventnor try both drugs both amphetamine methamphetamine in their very very similar drugs and that's not to say that either good or bad it's just a factual statement that if in a double blind placebo controlled or not even placebo control just a double blind trial i don't think that i could contribute my phd could also help obese patients lose weight here did you know that there's a lot of people think tramples on diapers on a diet appropriate here were and that he used to be on one of them one of the elements of thin fin then send fan fence our main media yeah ventre mean while there was some journalists that even talked about that when we say this we have a lot of a folder now would you say do i've been had messages about that journalists that you might be cause catching fish catch you or something
but even if he were on die if appropriate on earth then fleur me in her friend her meaner fen met resigned or any of these substances so what you now the court is is judgment compromise because he's hopped up on speed was judgment seems compromised regardless it is that why no prob knowing i but it could me why he get so much shit done i mean member one during the year euro he doesn't want to compliment him on i understand that no no that's not why it's again it's this idea there's a certain excuse but to revalue the drugs have people make the same arguments about hitler like hitler he was just high on speed that explains it the nazis urges high speed that explains it but what value does it we have simply with anthony bourdain say oh no drugs are found in a system postmortem so why what if they had been than one while the ideas that it might have been experiencing fucked up
eight of mine because of some drugs that made him make a poor choice and take his own life but you wouldn't know you would know why he did it so you're saying it wouldn't it splain anything really because you still wouldn't know his internal state it would just be your projecting an assumption so what there were a small amount of heroin in his blood at the time of his death then you would assume that he had relapsed was so ashamed of his relapse that he then decide to kill himself but the reality is we can't make those sorts of assessments we don't know other people's internal state you don't even know what these things due to other p we don't but we do know that some things like a bill of fire and some other s our eyes and even some anti anxiety medication have been strongly linked to suicidal thoughts and in fact there are actually list it is some side effects for a lot of these drugs yes don't you think that
meta no correlation does now eco causation but don't you think that's worth considering in it something to be discussed it's worth considering but i would be careful about assigning tumor value to it which is what people tend to do something with columbine or say oh he was on the right that antidepressant that's why is it why does it really explain it because there is a hell of a lot of people to take the same drugs and don't kill off their class me right right for sure for sure but it also could be a fact and this is not something i think we should avoid considering i think it should be discussed retractable yes ray with you but i think we're trying to look at things by an airy right we're look things in terms of book on or off black or white one or zero and i just don't think drugs work that way now and i think you got here the speed thing is curious to me because one of the side effects of these drugs is impulsive national behaviour and extreme confidence oneself
yet this is this is right this is what always think of people that are hopped up on speed people that have coke confidence in a coke that's a real phenomena what people do cocaine they feel very confident about themselves and they did they save ridiculous shit to people so the question is is that really what's happening if they have i gave coke to you would you start acting irrationally and feeling extremely confident yourself or is it just accentuating a problem that exists in the persons personality both probably a combination of the two but everything even if he has been using this stuff for decades is probably taller into it and it's not i don't think you would explain his behavior why things giving an energy he's been like for so long ago the saving this is it a long history of this sort of behaviour with this was what the journalist who talked about that he had been on this stuff for a long time and that there is aid actual dwayne red pharmacy in new york we described where he got the prescription filled people are doing the same thing with this
an asteroid as well though and i found that particularly of noxious financed ride is probably from future so there's an oh he's on financed ride in that explains you know is a fair that explains this because it is this or that you're libido and again it's like i don't know or not at all or let's give him credit for being a human being with free will that makes choices on its own that aren't entirely mediated by what pharmaceuticals uses waterfront stride also has side effects of depression we went over this yes we're with my friend ari who was really depressed one point time and coincided with his use of an asteroid right yeah i've i've seen but it's not very common it does occur but it's not uncommon right but for the person that does get those sites facts saying that it's not common doesn't really offer any comfort no
car wag i'm one of the lucky ones on one of the lucky ones was a jump off a bridge gimme to grow back but you know the reason that i am so opinionated about this particular issue it is because you see a time and time again it right or stop sooner from labour the jeffrey mcdonald murder case norma super fascinating you probably have read about in forgot about it was a big thing in maybe nineteen seventy but he was this military doktor whose credential the per fix man did everything right perfect family everything beautiful and then one night he goes to sleep and claims that is right for the man and murderous claims that these hippies walk into the house saying killed the pigs ass it is groovy kill the pigs acid is groovy and then just brutally massacre is entire families and added nowhere out of nowhere
yes and and it's a long and complicated story but he went to prison i dont think that he is guilty but people had to find an explanation for why you don t use guilty i dont think you hildy he had no motive and there were in the investigation was botched and seizing someone came into his house and did ass he was accused of us but but as he had no motive people had to construct a motive dead concoct a reason that this doctor would have murdered his entire family and so what's a good reason and emphatic he'd been using sir amphetamine containing diet pills that explains it all right but it doesn't it terrible explanation people use amphetamine all the time that killing their family so i just want to be very careful about you don't do this play a role in human behaviour of course they do but do they determine human behavior no that's a very good point there's a lot of factors there just its messy
being a person is messing is very complicated me you're a different person at noon than you are at seven p m of course i mean it's just it's so complicated and the more limitations we put on research and the more dogma we put on the use of these things the more murky these waters gonna be young and i think people don't even appreciate the extent which all these drugs have been made illegal of course evans or cannabis is casualness diesel and empty a may but the list is long it hundreds and hundreds of chemicals and a lot of these chemicals are chemicals with no supporters knowns fighting for them is a substance called to see an when shoguns creations they just through it schedule unknown uses it if you scour the internet i'd be surprised if you could find three reports of people using two cn totally unheard of but it is throw
schedule one because why the hell not neurons can stand up for that end of two cn but they miss a lot of shit to write like they miss five mythology dime muscle trip to mean to miss that no those made illegal in two thousand eleven right but for nineteen seventy when everything else got thrown into the mix emitted illegal i bought that should ease to build a bite on law yes i did i was crazy by a fuckin jug of it then get the whole city high vital on line yet because it was never popular china they make an illegal how do they do that they don't need any reason they can simply say that it has a huge potential and make it a legal and if no one opposes it then it becomes illegal that's how this list has gotten so long we have all these people fighting for the legality of cannabis and these other substances that are known to have therapy to potential but these other more obscure substances that are really only you can the scientists who are very seriously inclined to break the law for the sake of the region
drug users don't care about bring roma scientists are very unlikely because the whole purpose of science is to publish and you can't publish if you committed a crime in the context of your research so scientists are dramatically limited by the prohibition of these substances and it's the obscure ones and end up actually making a big difference not so much clinically but in terms of actually understanding the mechanism of these substances the structure activity relationships the narrow i'm ecology yeah the the the stigma and psychedelic use and even studied them has led so many doctor there are scientists researchers that would be inclined to want to do research on these echo or things they avoid them because it could be incredibly damaging to their careers and its beer craddock i mean there is a group of columbia those doing really fascinating research on the drug i begin and parkinson's disease and the
speaking with the head of the study and he was saying how obnoxious it was to have the government com way his vile of i became every day and monitor logs disguise it really serious researcher he's not gonna if you really get high he's not gonna get high up this tiny supply of government mandated or government sanctioned i began right it was supplied them but but they give these people are right really hard time they make them by a very expensive safe they do all this stuff that these are the law its people to abuse the substances its and they are the ones that are hurt the most severely except for of course the people to go to prison they're the ones that are most severely yet to come easy thing to think the people gonna recreational use i've again that's that's one weirder once oh it's totally bizarre yeah and and i began is a drug with so much potential for those
will that our whereby began its typically only discussed as a drug that treats addiction to opium aids which is very variant what an especially now but that's the tip of the iceberg with i became it has one of the most complex pharmacology of any drug of ever studied there's almost nothing it does not do i mean it's you know you have the alpha three beta for nicotine and settle colino sat there which is also the target of well beaten and has a kind of smoking cessation anti addictive effect than you have really high affinity relative to the other sectors for the enemy errors have pursued as a catalan type a fact and has a classical academic affected the five http receptor then it's a dope i mean we have taken him her serotonin we have taken editor it's just goes on and then it releases is protein jd enough which is considered one of the most important proteins and treatment of parkinson's disease its one the only things it is able to cause re growth of dope mean ergic neurons and people with parkinson's so this is like really fascinate
stuff it's just in schedule one scientists can't work with it is a tragedy it is a tragedy and it's also so effective i know so many people that have gone to mexico and gone to these clinics and done with and i began session for twenty four hours and come out of it a totally different person come out of wood complete new perspective on even why they were using whatever their using in the first place in a way it did not always it help eliminate the addictive properties in the connection that your body has those substances but also allows you to re examine why you went down that road in the first place yeah oh yeah and there there is a sort of pharmaceutical push to develop non psychedelic derivatives of i became that would retain the anti addictive pro parties which sounds like a good idea in theory but said he created this drug eighteen m c and it wasn't psychedelic within it
also lacked some of these neuro trophic factor releasing properties of ivy but the really the bottom line is that we should deny the fact that the psychedelic activity of these substances is therapeutic psychotherapeutic in and of itself i love you i had a friend who is severely severely addicted to heroin and he travelled to the netherlands to take i began and you know took the drug was going into the experience and started feelings intense craving for heroin and on inserted looking through his bags see if you'd somehow put a little had forgotten about a little bit of heroin that could just get him through the day and then he goes into his bag and then finds a small bag of heroin and snorts it and then is like traveled all the way to the netherlands to do this this was a failure relapsing after all this money all this work have no self control and terrible terrible person why can't i just stop and then realize that the whole thing was a
was nation there was no heroin he'd hallucinated his own relapse wow wow what was your experience with i've never taken high doses the most it ever taken his fifty milligrams of wits an effective dose it really depends on this this sort of move toward micro dosing i became because it actually does have a cardio toxic effect especially at higher doses so people are looking into ways of reducing the cardio toxicity by using it at lower doses for longer periods of time again this is something that has to do with prohibition because in this prohibition market if you are addicted to heroin you go to mexico you go to canada and you good when i became clinic you need to get as much bang fear bach as quickly as possible you're not gonna stay there for two months of treatment because most people have lived in
can afford to do that so what do you do they give you what what is called a flood dose into massive dose often a multi gram dose of i began because it's just like us wedge hammer that alex you down and allows you to get out of it but is that the best way its the fastest way that's the most happen rising way for someone had to travel to do it but is it the best probably not because we know that at high doses it has this potential to induce cardiac arrhythmia is and that can kill and has killed so people yet now looking at lower doses over longer periods of time which would be ideal if it were legal and the united states i believe yeah that's up it's a really interesting one to me it's over a really interesting one because it's got such a long history of use so many people have had these very good experiences with getting off of addictive drugs from it
oh yeah and it's so relatively unknown as well it's it's it's something that you talk to someone like you and you of course you know about it but i'm at work i bet if we walk down the street and asked a hundred people i'd be shocked if one of them knew about it yeah the candidate sometimes talk about suicide in as an invention of mushrooms or is technology or is being cynthia dick and at a really agree with that idea in his attention of mushrooms or you it sort of sea like this is as synthetic as a coca cola bottle this is like alien technology that's how you describe suicide and but in my opinion it's you know it's a pretty simple derivative trip to fanny tuesday carboxylic methylated the nitrogen twice in and had this phosphate esther but but i began that's a crazy molecule that's like a three dimensional thing that new medicinal chemist would have ever discovered that if there is no not a sound mystical but that strikes me as some sort of
plant technology emanates an amazingly complicated structure so complicated that is almost impossible to synthesize in fact i can't be set size commercially all the i became the people use has to be extracted from plants because that's the only way to get it i first found out about it when when hunter thompson accused ed muskie of being i wonder in the presidential race of was at nineteen seventy or whatever it was that was hilarious moment and a lot of people i think were introduced to what i began laws by that when he said a brazilian which doktor had been flown in due it doesn't even ro in brazil but does he makes at his hollow it's also was hilarious when he was on the deck cabot show and they asked him about spreading those rumours in these like well there was a rumor that he was doing this side again and
i know because i started the roar reported factually there was a rumor sir there is still a lot of these drugs that get put into various categories and i began as one of the very few that really isn't in any category in terms of like modern culturally two way we discuss and consider these so because it's very different structural inform ecologically but that a hundred times so is really interesting because it is obviously very charming funny story and i have to know exactly when it happened relative to the scheduling of i begin but it might be an example of how would you know frivolous joke that most people enjoy told in the wrong climate can resume in the loss of a chemical that could be to get the could save tens of thousands of lives and could be a treatment for parkinson's disease you know this is the responsibility that journalists have its more responsibility than i think i'd like to have often but that's the truth you make a joke
and i began next thing you know it's in schedule one may be made the joke afterwards but if he didn't you have to wonder because i was one of the first major mentions of ivory in in the popular press and the sea was true of either there a rolling stone scare article that came out a while ago and same deal this drug to see seven and they do story of this teenager he took to margins to seat he seven it can kill you with just a little pie the powder whatever and and then the drug is made schedule one children works on psychedelic sheldon great medicinal chemists to spend his entire life studying sacred alex considered this one of the six greatest creations of his entire career squash by a single stupid story and rolling stone that's how easily it happens no was the story stupid mean didn't have any basis in fact in thither at rolling stone told me that there were factual errors in and there's something weird about it but yes people did die because yes people die from using drugs
finally to deny that would be to lie but that doesn't mean that they don't have therapeutic activity and it doesn't mean that be illegal one of the ones that disturbs me the most is sentinel sentinel gist just i don't even understand why anybody would want to make that it seems me that we have no any of opiates as it is why make one that's a thousand times stronger than heroin yeah i've known for fantail chemists including the one that introduced fence and alter the united states in italy died recently they die from it no doubt of old age is killed so many people yet tom petty david bowe aids was bowie one not your prince yeah mean there's quite a few great people that we ve lost to the stuff yeah it's really it's unfortunate but again
sentinel is not the problem the problem of people taking promise people taking it and the problem is lack of access to safer opium aids and lack of education surrounding sentinel because it doesn't even really have desirable properties you know one thing that people talk about the potency offence in appointing the they don't often talk about it duration is a very very short duration opium aid which necessitates compulsive constant reducing if you're addicted defend to know unless you transdermal patch or something like that like that you typically can't make it through a single night without having to reduce because the duration is so short that's why it's always done in these prolonged release formulations like a lollipop that you sakharov manage but anyway it's yet it's not a drug that well suited to st uses to the therapeutic index is too narrow its duration
is too short has a medical purpose that it works very well for it shouldn't be used as a heroine replacement but the economic reality is that you have to make heroin from opium opium they come from the place where poppies are growing at a whole process were sentinel we made by one guy somewhere and the profit margin on the sentinels song greater that is enormous economic incentive and the first chemist this guy that was sort of friend of mine that died to do it considered it a good thing to do that's the complexity the after recognised so easy to say that all these boy are so bad but often you dont know what's gonna happen until it happens his idea was that one of the major burdens of being addicted to heroin is that you can afford it it's really expensive so by substituting this relatively expensive material the price of heroin would go down this financial burdens
seated with populated action would be reduced would actually improve the quality of life of the users and could even be a more pure potentially safer material if you look at certain literature of course that's not what happened and many people died and he went prison as a result of it very real yes why do you go to prison for it because people died and it was traced back to him why yeah so he wasn't doing this in any sanctioned know he was a claim and chemises name is george mark quart weird guy yeah guess yeah but anyway you know you just don't know you don't know what's going to happen until it happens you know of course the legendary or the heroin was introduced by bear as a non addictive alternative to morphine they probably did think that was the case at the beginning but history has shown that that is not the case that one of them problems with introducing any drug to large population you simply dont not which in its also one of the things that i find it
interesting in and perhaps the silver lining in this hall synthetic cannot be annoyed narrative that's been playing out over the last decade is you did say owes terrible people smoke cannabis but world so much about what kind of annoyed after agnes can do that we will never learned if it weren't for the widespread use of synthetic can't benoit i mean just for instance that it is possible for high potencies cannabis lloyd receptor agnes to kill you that's a big one we don't know that until recently that they can be addictive we know that what are they use what is it it's so it's an impasse massively diverse array of chemicals in it started out with a drug called cp fifty five nine forty and of his cp of whether they caught cannon by cycle of tax and all now and then j w h eighteen jaded we reach seventy three data we reach to tat and on and on and on and on energy branch like a giant cannabis lloyd fractal and every imaginable imaginable
action and in a lot of these compounds in a vehicle they were patented by various pharmaceutical companies like pfizer for therapeutic purposes against wasn't symbol level antenna to his cackling and thing hahaha i figured out the most addictive thing possible they were just looking to see what's legal what looks pretty potent and reasonably safe okay we'll make that will sell it and spoken with the chemist actually were behind a lot of these operations again not bad guys necessarily they lay you note typically people don't want to hurt other people genuine villainous people are pretty rare and my experience most people believe that what they're doing has a justification that is good and again with synthetic tabloid ideas one is that although you won't hear this in the popular press in its rarely said they can be very enjoyable and it would be dishonest to say otherwise some of them are very euphoric and compare favourably to canvass and in certain
it might even be superior that doesn't mean they're safer it just means that there is something very desirable but them and if you deny that then you neglect to understand why people use them in the first place which is that they make you feel good so that's part of it but then the other thing is the urine testing people wanting to be able to get high without breaking the law low cost i mean there's a lot of motivations for doing this and as it played out people died people became addicted and random things in order to ever expected occurred we we learned here's another silver lining the empty familiar with canada hyper amuses syndrome norman you know this this bizarre pattern that certain people smoke all day every day it start showing up in them cool literature about a decade ago appeals will all day every day and they started very very nauseous and serve vomiting and the only thing that can relieve the vomitings a hot shower part so really weir's always boy showing up an emergency rooms when they like run
of hot water saying like i need some kind of i need some help something like i don't know what's going on condition resolves itself very rapidly as soon as you stop smoking cannabis it's it's not hard to treat you can't smoke we anymore but no one knew what caused it and why it was happening now after thoust of years of human cannabis interaction wine now for the first time in history and the answer is that people are smoking more we'd now than ever before the levels of teach see ingestion with diving and hypotheses trains or just tyre for some people much higher than has ever been in the past
button but the question is what is causing it is it cannabis itself is it of fertilizers pesticide what is responsible for this and it was until people with using synthetic cannabis lloyd's began to experience the same constellation of symptoms that they realise that this is an intrinsic property certain canopy lloyd receptor agonists sets an you can learn from all this that it wasn't pesticides and it wasn't some kind of fungus or something like that grow on the plan for this is something that happens from prolonged high doses of candidates and all sorts of other lessons can be learned is that an issue with canvas use pesticides is of you ever heard of people having real problem which historically it was certainly a pair clot pot did you ever hear what's the paraguayan was on you in one of the many misguided attempts to prevent people from using drugs they started
sprang all the cannabis is grown in mexico with his ultra toxic herbicides called paraguayan and this is a drug that induces parkinson's disease when exposed to it like really seriously nasty stuff no joke and so the idea was if we poison all that cannabis and create this widespread fear that whatever your smoking might contain pair clot maybe people use it less and luckily paraguayan is doesn't have a lot of thermo step letty certain denatured by the heat of smoking so it's argued that people are not actually exposed to a new smoked it but still this horrendous thing for the government to have done they did the same thing during i'll call prohibition by the way the poison alcohol in that the extent of poison people to prevent them from getting high but that's a reality but
but now in turn you know there's always in a move towards organic gardening people using you know meme oil on things like that so i wouldn't know there was the other was actually a big controversy in colorado with the pesticide called might clue beauty no i believe that was used and potentially could really cyanide when smoked so that is why would worry about that with large scale production things become commercially viable the point where some unlike our j rennell gets into the mix starts growing enormous marijuana plantations oh yeah it's a concern with all the food we eat as well of course what is interesting to you now like it was raising that's coming up or some new thing the people may not be aware of that might be fast same you yeah i mean i'm i'm i'm interests in every
you know i love the history i love benighted a peace did a piece in this last season of my tv show where i trace the history of psychedelic toad venom of five meo dmt containing toad venom because people have this idea that also get alex have been used for thousands of years that every psychedelic has an ancient history but when you look at the history of five let me odium t there is no end it's really no convincing evidence that i'm aware of maybe can point to a new ceramic toe what is that evidence of people smoke toad venom not in my opinion it might be some indication that maybe they did but it certainly not hard evidence even if there were but disguising on his back smoking a pipe it will be hard evidence but anyway so there isn't convincing evidence as far as i'm concerned of ancient toad venom you sit in the question is when did it start who was the first person to do this and i love these little historical investigations to get to the bottom who is the first person to synthesize this drug what were their intentions who is the first person to smoke toad venom and widen
that sort of animals are reared one too because it is bizarre misconception that you lick the toads right which then journalistic lee produce i wouldn't worry me was inspired by cartoons as well to some extent play yes so the way you do it is you have to get the toad to excrete wherever this is and you put it on glass and then you dry it out as the idea that the ideas and then you great at all for the razor blade and then smoking that set in come is it a pure form of five m i don t know and is actually very little chemical analysis has been done in the twenty first century i analyzed sample that i collected when i was in sonora and it contained in addition to i've emmy odium t it contains some interesting serotonin derivatives including serotonin oh
all fate and nobody knows how these different trip to mean components as well as these steroids all lack tones are sometimes called bhutto talks and contribute to the experience if i had to guess probably not that much but maybe there's a little bit of that's really onto roger fact that you get with almost any plant that has a variety of different alkaloids it might inhibit certain enzymes or do this or that but it's about fifteen percent according to the older literature the analysis that i did wasn't quantitative so i don't know exactly what the concentration was but it's somewhere in that region and am sure depends on whether the toad has been milked previously in all these other variables does experience mere taking synthetic five m yoda empty i haven't tried i've tried synthetic five immunity anti a couple times have tried before various venom wanted a lotos once at a high dose they are all different but then everything is different mushrooms are different every time i take them you know it's really hard
once you start explaining a different experience based on the composition the material because how you assign into the dose or the minute number of different tripped means that are also present it's really hard to say but you know i think that there is a strong argument to be made for using the synthetic as opposed to the toad derived material simply because you don't have to harm or her not that it necessarily does harm toads but we're going to have to risk it right right and it's easy to synthesize yeah i'm sure toads on integrating rubbed on windshields yeah simpler annoying day for it yeah they want to eat insects yeah whatever the fuck they do one of the more interesting stories out of the last decade or so was this store that i read about these scholars in jerusalem that war connecting the story of moses in the burning bush to the acacia bush
acacia tree which is rich in dm tee and they believe if that you know when you talk but a story that was told through oral traditions for who knows how many years and then written down in ancient hebrew and then transcribed in you know and translated to greek and latin and all these do there's a lot lost in the mix and i believe that what that story might have been a bout of moses coming down from outside i with the tablets and having the experience with meeting god and the burning bush that what this is in fact was a dime ethel trip to mean experience maybe it's a big maybe it's a big maybe i can say that town if you go to the south of mexico in chiapas there's a tree
that grows there is a weed called mimosa hostility maybe you're familiar within and this is so abundant that its use to make fence posts all the this is on the side of the road or made of mostar still uses firewood to cook meals the air smells like the empty because people are using it as fuel all the place not a single person that i spoke with was aware that it was psychoactive these are people that are burning it all the time do they get high from it is like if you were in a tent or something like that you're doing a hot i sort of scenario would you get high from no i saw no would you it maybe it's about two percent the empty so the approach i have to get so sick free be causing a year it would be a very uneven just smoking pure crystal dm two you can be very difficult for some yet also my guess not to be like a wet blanket by my guess is not really
and that a very strong source as strong as maybe there's a summit she's stronger but it certainly comparable and that something people using to conclude all the time they're not aware that it psychoactive so was there a way or is there a way for a person living found tens of years ago to somehow another extract dm tee from something like the acacia tree that's actually spend some time thinking about that a while ago it would be first depends on how you define extraction if it were to end like an eyewash cosenza get tee of course yes but then they would need centre of enzyme inhibitor to create the eye oscar if it were to creating an isolated smoke apple form again you know you could do you like an aqueous infusion and then try that out and maybe smoke that but in terms of like a real extraction that would produce crystals of dm two
i don't know what the non polar solvent they would be using to extract the free base would be like butter or something and then how'd you get rid of the butter so what is the process like if you're going to take a treat its rich and dm tee and extracting empty from it what what are you have to use of europe before now i've never done ok well it's it's a very generalise of all and simple process that applies to almost everything in chemistry it's you know sometimes it's called an acid base extraction most people that are in the dim teach me i d go something they call straight to base and we know the ideas that decide chain of the anti molecule contains a basic nitrogen that if its protein aided in an acidic solution than its water valuable and if its deeper ordinated than its only soluble in a non polar solvent so what you do is you just deep rotate the nitrogen with a base potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide typically and
and treat that aqueous basic solution with a non polar solvent like nafta and isolate the nafta dry it out and you have your material and that applies to everything that's not a dm t specific process but that's what people do everything the basic nitrogen no what's the earliest history of extraction do we will in the first wave of dm to use in the united states was all synthetic in fact the empty was discovered synthetically before was ever found in nature the same is true of five m e odium how they do that there is a canadian chemist named richard helm youth man ski who i believe is looking at different alkaloids and strawberry plan and he was synthesizing references for these potential strawberry alkaloids and made the empty sweden know what he had made other than a potential natural product found in strawberries and
it wasn't until sorrow much later conduct itself experiments with injected the empty that people became fully aware of its cycle activity and then people started finding it in plants in the nineteen fifty four or lack of an early sixties were of course a fact waiting time psychedelic research because you have this convergence of these amazing ideas first you have the discovery of sarah tone in which is like you know we take this for granted now it's in television marshals but this is of course no one knew about incinerator finding this in all kinds of different animals initially it was in the salad very glands of squid undone indifferent animals and in their finding it in the human intestine then there are also finding that all these plants are people worshiped in various indigenous societies also contain serotonin like molecules in they discover lsd and find that maybe the most potent known pharmacological age and at that time and it binds to certain reception
activated serotonin type response in isolated tissue so there's like this weird triple convergence information super potent amazing compound lsd is discovered serotonin covered and always different organisms and there's a campfire logical convergence between the two of them have always people worshipping serotonin like molecules so there is a lot of enthusiasm at that time to figure all this out so in terms of history so we're talkin melick somewhere in the nineteen fifty they started extracting the empty the use of it orally dates back far law now because of use of embryo inhibitors and creating i alaska but in terms of the first traction we can kind of iceland's yeah to smoke yeah it might have and even later might have been the eighties walker so the idea people thousands of years ago were able
do something along those lines is probably probably not accurate because they target a burning bush that's why it's appealing to people right there the of moses do do you think that be the understanding of synthesis of from in also synthesizing this from these scholars maybe they don't have enough of an understanding of chemistry what we really interesting is to do an experiment to what were the materials that were available how would this had been done would you have to use butter as your non polar solvent how well with that work what would your butter preparation be done we put would you take it rectal then is that how would work and enhancing kind what would your base have been i think they were talking about it being something from in burning right a burning bush maybe it's one of those things are sorted gets conflated right because you have people today that are very aware that people smoke de empty and have these incredibly tat intends religious psychedelic experiences and then maybe they look dad
acacia bush and said o the acacia bushes written dm t that's probably where the most historic came from right what's really interesting is you know deemed he has never been found in the human brain even though rick's draftsman says that it has been so a lot of people are constantly assigning altered states of consciousness to dm tee but we can have these states without empty i mean maybe it's never been found in the human brain but also those ethical and our mental issues with sampling fluid from living here its brain remedied has they have founded in living rats necessarily recently this kind would research foundation that's their their attempt is to try to prove that the panel gland is a source for de empty we know that t exists in the human body you know that deliver produces it we know the lungs produce it or not totally aware of whether or not this anecdote eleven two points to the pineal gland based on the rat
yeah and based on the presence of certain enzymes that could be responsible for it but even if it is even if it is then why is there still a whole question of how is it released how's it distributed what receptors as it activate and is it even nest there is an explanation for all the states of consciousness because there are other things in the brain other than dm t demonize never even found the member their other things you know you have endogenous proteins are blind to the cap opiate receptor the same receptor that is responsible for the effective salvaged things like that they agree a responsible i mean even carbon dioxide itself can induce pretty strong altered state of consciousness right which why people like those psychedelic breathing exercises yet the sort of mozilla hypoxia is that what it is what they doing when they they have those the wood it what is called there's a type of breathing exercise that induces cycle
estates holler tropic haulage wrath work here and that is the idea behind their right it increases the amount of carbon dioxide in your blood i haven't seen it mechanistic explanation ya think tat was but it would not make sense in an early lsd psychotherapy one of the things that they would do before giving some analyses it give them cynical carbon which was a gas that contained carbon dioxide and they would look at their response to the carbon dioxide inhalation and if it induced it annick response they would say maybe you're not psychologically ready for this l experience so that was you're talking about a test mean that was a very primitive early task that was used by psychiatrists see if people were had the psychological fortitude to withstand the expense and that's fascinating so tell me more about whatever is in the brain that mirrors the effects of salvador its approach
jeanne i remember off the top of my head why did its if you look up endogenous lie again fur cap opiate receptor or come up david nicholls recently wrote a paper that actually goes into alternate mechanisms of how the dm teague type near death experience could be produced by ninety empty compounds brimming there is a lot of work also on endogenous an mba receptor antagonists or is it a protein it was called alpha endo psycho sin or angel dust in names after angel dust for them researcher died in a car accident like writers who is making some kind of breakthrough breakthrough supposedly but to spooky me but you know there's all this has been a long standing question in psychiatry is you know what causes psychosis what causes
third states of consciousness is there an endogenous psychedelic that was one of the major motivations for a lot of this research in the sixties finding the endogenous hydrogen that is responsible for schizophrenia now it doesn't seem to be the case but it's still a question that comes up what if dope means method they did in a certain way to create diamond foxy phenethylamine or what about this what about that having children is very interested in it but the metabolic production of various psychedelic that account for altered seats of consciousness it just hasn't been supported by evidence in a very strong way even though people really find the idea compelling and there is also the five a museum teens gets a frank people's urine that's all so the thing right and we know that the body does produce five emmy odium t we just don't know where yet because and it's like what i was saying earlier about the depression tests were you look at your urine see find five a museum tenure urine and europe first assumption might be ok there's five m
the empty in my body it was in my brain but you don't know that right it could have been by a synthesizing your intestine and it could have been excreted without ever entering your brain rye and this the whole idea of model aiming oxidation right the idea that when were eating things at a rich and damn motorway mean oxidize is breaking down the gut yeah so unit you're consuming something so if sir thing is so how do they know that this this sylvia like substance exists in the mind or in the brain rather because this this peptide or protein has been isolated define the name of it alcott four of those words but loss what else can be done so we know there is a host of different psychoactive substances absolutely produced by the body and in in the mark in the brain and that there is different ways that
human beings have been able to achieve psychedelic states outside consuming drugs have you done that i've done lucid dreaming things i've done kindly yoga couldn't do one is among the most interested and because i have someone who is a friend of mine that got really into it he was saying that he can achieve very dm t like states is a really interesting aspect of all this it is often discussed which has the ability to have these states and still interact with your invite and because of course you something very physically taxing about breath of fire these kindly breeding techniques if inducing altered stew of indeed be focused and you need to be in a specific place sitting down where academics have this amazing ability to allow you to have that experience but walk around and i think that's
to be underestimated the walking around because then you can really re examine your environment that's a big part of it for me a big part of the psychedelic experience is seeing what is new york like what do i like or not like about new york what do i like or not like about my apartment because matters injuries bout your environment you are surrounded by clutter that you dont like if you dont get ready right and these are the sorts of thought you have and this is my other issue with going the peruvian amazon to have a psychedelic experience because if you do it in this place that is superficially propria like your apartment i think it has the most applicability to your own existence in terms of the music you listen to your friends your environment your life your confronted by the books you read the phone the people that you know all the things that matter to you not a jungle the jungles are very beautiful visually stimulating and i'm an hour no and amazing place do you like i think that we
their estimate the value these things have well integrated into a more normal type of experience in its end and you can't do as easily with kindly right right that makes sense so when you're using psychic dogs you old use them and walk around new york city guess what is our i often feel a lot of love for beauty yet which as you know because i think that we also tend to get into these very angry subways the subways taking up too much room after stand taken forever it smells forever it smells weird is looking at their phones all the time which is a little bit dark and then you know if you're on a low doses gallagher even a higher one sometimes a look at everyone on their phones and i'll just feel compassion and love and think what a strange situation we all gotten ourselves into a love all these people on it's like i don't know what
to say about it but i understand completely and i know where we're going from here and he suddenly feel connected to something that's very real which people on the subway not looking each other anymore lemon this is in my own life something has changed dramatically when i moved to new york no one looked at phones now people only look at phones everyone is looking for the entire time there on the subway is a total change inhuman behaviour and you really sorry thinking about things like that in matters because it's not in the amazon it's your life and these are the things the choices that you make are you gonna be a person it looks it therefore in all that time is well yes fastening are quickly that took hold the future of human history when the iphone his tenure salt and that's really when it started so ten years ago peoples and even then the beginning of the iphone there were fuckin useless you get online it was really slow and terrible on some other time just text message but now with all the alps
social media unspent constant updates information and new things new events new trends insist in its always call you other check my train things we ve been on this point gas for two hours and we see what's goin look at that these mass it up fuck you did it we actually have this this a vivid memory of standing at your front door and you selling twitter to me saying like all you ve got you gotta use at whether in the eighties and people send all its annual these articles and it's so useful you learn so much it's really amazing that only had one tweet at that time now it's like twenty five hundred tweets later and hundreds of hours of my life i'll never are i got you i gotta it what it is that way still for me in many ways i learn a lot about what's going on the world into thy follow a lot of science tweets twitter counts and a lot of really interesting p
for the post interesting stuff but you gotta know how to abandon a tweet several words in like this is bullshit married now now my region as a whole what can they do now between two laws is crazy no it's ivan that just knowing that it's gonna be horse shit this is gonna be just either sip or nonsense are not interesting but they're still a shit ton of really useful information that you can get out of twitter on a daily basis there's always something new that's coming out and i try to retweet those things as much as possible when i see something that someone sends me and then that becomes people know hey if you send joe something really cool and he reads it if i get a chance to really i'll retweeted and people get a kick out of that so they'll send me more cool stuff and so then it sort of its sort of becomes like alan ecosystem almost furred disseminating interesting ideas yeah that's also
till this bullshit what arguing which i don't do i just don't argue it's a very ineffective way to communicate with people with out going back and forth stuff like that online it just doesn't work well it's in it becomes i think more i idea sport with a lot of folks like they just when these little battles and final though the whittier nasty thing to say and just its productive not healthy i don't like it will they're doing the same thing the journalists do which is that you get more attention for doing the wrong thing than you do for saying the right thing grosso and we all know that feeling or someone says something about you that's unfair and wrong and you want to say hey wait a second allows that that is totally incorrect i'm in a set the record straight yeah and that's what gets engagement not the kind thought for considerate thing that somebody says yeah yes i would love to x
enjoy the trend of kindness i really think that that is one thing if there's any one trend and to lean towards kindness didn't just to just to be nicer to people and if we could all sort of agree that this is a virtue worth pursuing change the way human beings interact with each other these shifts like the shift of looking at your phone we can figure out a shift one of the more urban things to me that comes from the left which have always associated myself being a left wing leaning person that there's lot of meanness coming from the left now a lot of what by any means necessary a lot of feeling that to squash people and humiliate people and insult people because they don't agree with what you believe and that this this is it i think this is it terrible path to go down because then the sort of justifies people think the opposite of that to be mean to you so now no one's getting anything done because this
being insulting and that sides being insulting and people are getting take data restaurants and people are protesting in front of people's houses they disagree with things and is a lot of cruelty alive like a meanness and cruelty which is the enemy of discourse as soon as that stuff gets thrown about incidents it becomes a war and idea war or an idea sport people are just trying to win and trying to get back to you for what you said and you get back at them for that and it becomes terrible stall out situation yeah we ve all bought into a game and it's a bad game to play its the worst possible game and it's very transparent and when you look at what shows up on the first page of twitter and its things that are perfectly designed to generate opinions so teacher says that now classrooms will be equipped with a bucket of stone to throw at a school shooter and what do you feel or that stupid or hey that's actually kind of good idea it's better than nothing and everyone's engaging with it and you're buying into it
supporting it in your promoting it you're making bigger by paying attention to it and there's an amazing book that i recommend anyone listening to this red called amusing ourselves to death by neil postman which nineteen eighty five before computers before social media before any this he predicts all of it perfectly without even knowing faintest hint of what was going to happen and you know his solution if there is one is you know partially to dissing age from all this but to try to it she long nuanced careful things which is very hard to achieve on twitter or television in most places we try our best war think that's one of the reasons why pod casts light especially ones like this that are these long for conversations are becoming popular because people are hungry for actual reunification their hungry for but that are just even if we do agree on things i want to know why you think the way you think about here at all i want to hear
all of your reasoning i want to hear the thought process that lead you to that i want to hear that and i want to be able to talk to you about how i think and why i think the way i think and maybe we can come to some middle ground or at least understand each other i go i've see where you went i see why you do i see what's happening inside your your mind or the way you feel or how it relates to your life this is absent in most of course on television its ab in all talk shows its like we were talking about the oddness of a panel show mean did there so bizarre doesn't make any sense that none of it not how human beings interact with each other at every conversation honey your life there was an audience lapping wing at everything you said you'd mean it it could the aids this sort of fake way of communication that has become so commonplace with us you just even the way they sit sitting next to each other like this like
looking at each other out be sitting over here and you'd be at the desk and i will well hamilton finally bring that up but in our own look at the crowd it's it's it's alien it's really weird and i think because of fact that people are so addicted to their phones and addicted to media in this constant influx of this loop information i mean if you watch the news that can just give you the fucking news you have to get that scrawl on the bottom of other shit you should be freaking out about it's like the news itself not enough no you have to know about terrorists the tax in fucking ices and new some new flu that can't be cured and that's all scrolling on the bottom or you're watching other shit we that's not how human beings are designed were designed to talk or designed to communicate each other person to person this is what we're good at this is what will we ve lost and the one thing that as proud probably lead to more people
understanding more about each other actual conversations is rare which is really weird your its way more common for some to look at their phone for ten hours a day that for someone to have a one on one unendurable good conversation with someone for an hour don't exist that exists with lovers that's it with lovers and occasionally with did if you have polite and her companions that put their phone down and drink glass why and talked about stuff but even then people suck at it people it's almost like people forgot how to do it they talk over each other they don't listen to each other when the other person's talking that waiting their turn and talk it so where we're going down weird roads that these roads where we're sort of dis and seeing our from
passion and understanding and real communication absolutely do barbier psychedelic might help that's what that's hometown i think they would help i think if we had like real centres where you could go and just like you could go to a place where you can get a licensed therapist two massage you you know i've got this back paw and in our it that works is tissue massage go plays they give you a robe they plague nice music they give you team their setting the set answer that the setting and the the the ambulance of the room it it enhances the experience of getting the massage when you go went to the room the light her down they might have a candle lit there's some fuckin hot rocks in the place and they're playing beautiful harp music
background the satin setting is a part of the spirit it's getting massage we can have something like that and have these things common for use of psychedelic where you could go to a real and actual some sort of therapist its trained in both psychotherapy and the use of psychedelic so they could talk to you and find out if you stable asking questions about your medical history what kind of medications iran it how you feeling what are you trying to achieve through this and then work you through an experience method this could be enormously beneficially lasted in shore it already has been i mean that's where we keep talking about psychedelic medicine all the time but so much of this has been done that's it really crazy thing i begin to be a pharmaceutical in france are those use at lower doses that weren't psychedelic
to be an empty america using it for as like a tonic to stimulate people whose called lamb burying eight milligram tablets what is ineffective dose threshold cycle activity in my ex it is about twenty milligrams of the hydrochloride salt but they were micro dosing there there were many micro dose and many micro dosing i began they may use multiple tablets i dont know if anyone is familiar with french historical literature relating to i'm gonna have a little bit of it but there isn't much rain again these visas psychedelic hauled in japan as an anti depressants soviet union and the united states or is a drug harmonious alpha ethel trips mean is used as an anti depressants india may type serotonin really sir and then of course the whole history of dp facilitated and of life therapy lsd psychotherapy on and on everything shoguns group did using to see m m d ay i
again this is along with claudio in iran who in order to facilitate psychotherapy i mean people not only were doing it there are exploring all the different ways to do it which compounds are best for which applications given expense took a cow yes well what is your experience in terms of the psychedelic effects or psychoactive effects it be stimulating because of the theo bromine content but does mirror a small doses them dna or not in my experience now this is what was it was kyle that was talked about their right promptings work he was saying that in large doses that rock cow has some sort a mild emptier may like a fact i've heard people say that and people will sometimes say that the presence of phenethylamine in cacao could account for that but it is such a small amount race quantities lesson
milligram and the active joseph phenethylamine is hundreds of milligrams grams in order to achieve a psychoactive effect so i think the effect that people do experience is probably mediated by theo bromine which is present in relatively high quantities that the deal it's named after the genus the aroma and theo bromine does what the how does it make you feel it's it's a coffee in type stimulant so what when people say that chocolate contains caffeine but they're they're really referring to theo bromine in his home its deadly two dogs yes it is ha socio bromine that's doing yup fascinating so it's not actually caffeine no this is a caffeine like some in its last potent and coffee and what was your experience like physically how did you feel when you took this this chiquita and what what what how large dose i mean i see that every day what raw miata powders
the powder the baser you did every day in yogurt and just as a health thing yeah as a health thing and i liked the flavour of it but i have never had it inexperience beyond at most a low level stimulant experience and evolve taken pure theo bromine and is stimulating but it requires a five hundred milligrams to achieve an effect if i remember correctly what others and what about the ever fuck with nutmeg nobody i mean it's a fascinating area of course you prisoners historically did malcolm x did it yeah and essential oil of nutmeg contains marie citizen which is a precursor for the psychedelic amphetamine m m d not m dna but its mythology mba and as well as elam he which is another psychedelic precursor
as well as does i think one other maybe even saffron actually think it sappho enemies and and marie citizen and showed him how to hypothesis again children was actually by training a biochemist not organic chemist although these spent his queer doing organic chemistry so he's very interest in these ideas of the body creating psychedelic so he thought when you consume nutmeg oil that your body is is emanating this double bond and creating a series of different amphetamine and that's what accounts for the high but in reality people don't actually know oh yeah so but what kind of history of use the does it have in terms of like but people taking it for the psychoactive benefits i'm sure there is an ancient right would be honest
there is some ancient use of it but you know it's mostly like a thing for teenagers and people in prison these days it's kind of why is it illegal high it's one of these things you do when you don't have access to it to anything else it's and most of the reports make it sound more anti calling ergic delirium type experienced more like taking a lot of drama mean than the heart like a classical psychedelic experienced but you can use that oil to make a lot of sacred alex in a laboratory wow no history of uses are also so fascinating to me when you talk about history of use because their certain cultures that really don't have a written history they have oral history has very difficult to determine when people started what about pay quality what is the history of use of parity because i remember reading some of their cash stunned me that so
that is only you like a couple hundred years of known use of piety yeah all cases these different histories because parity is used it grows naturally over a relatively broad region stretching from the southern united states into i believe mostly northern mexico and so in the united states the history is about a hundred years old of the native american church its recent but it's crazy so nineteen eighteen something like that yes it was a comanche chief named quanta parker who spread the parity religion across the united states and caught on because it's fantastic dick of course caught on i'll never experienced what is what
will again it's another one of these plants that has moscow and of course but then it has is other accessory alkaloids modulate the experience which really interesting about parity is it contains is chemical called peo teen and parity in it i have some farm see trade journals from like teen nine d or something like that no made must be later that must be maybe like nineteen fifteen or something like that somehow around there and they talk relic your pharmacy must have morphine cocaine and peo team the three substances every pharmacists needs and and protein was used as a hypnotic it was used to induce sleep but there's been no very little research on it none in the twenty first century i mean this is like was once considered a the valuable medicine the issues that it's a little bit tricky to synthesize and it has to be extracted from this rare cactus le far for a diffuser but but that modulating
spirits you have so many different alkaloids and and it is very long lasting it causes dramatic pupil dilation is extremely nauseating in bonn and made an episode about poverty in the most recent season of my show and i vomited so much that might knows started bleeding you know it was some serious vomiting and its physically very very punishing more so than almost anything i've ever done out in terms of the after effects or while you're doing while you're doing it it's a heavy load on the body to its people always say it is not recreational wherever but truly is as you know this is really a punishing experience and on top of that the native american ceremonies often accentuate some of those punishing aspects of it like water is conserves you don't get to drink is much water as you want but to emphasise the important
of water in mozambique salvieux ceremonies there's no water at all but which i think is actually increases the absorption of the leaf into your mouth because the natural reaction in the evening discussing is to wash it now with water these are little things that people do impulsively without thinking that organ it changed the nature the experience so anyway you eat this cactus its incredibly nauseating and bitter and then you have maybe a twelve hour hallucinatory euphoric state that very beautiful and strange and well you see the cactus raw yeah some people grind it some people cook it sort of cactus he could get that should at home depot you can get san pedro at home the same no no party is a dumpling cactus it's a very small somewhat spherule cactus caprices beautiful white and pink flowers and its incredibly slow growing which is why the conservation of poverty is an even bigger issued in the conservation of toll
seven parity all these psychedelic plants have major conservation issues need to be addressed but parity is arguably the biggest of them all because this is a slow growing plant if you want to learn page and grow peyote that's how you learn this this bottle have any who takes five years before the size of a dime if you grow from seed why yes so when you're either something that's you know that's as biggest kind of a coffee mug or something like that maybe twenty thirty years all cheese cries so there's a lot of history in these plants they call him grandfather piety and i think the reason is that by the time that there ready to be consume they often our grandfathers or grandmothers they have produced and have offspring and all this stuff because it takes that long so
yes it's very slow growing it's not a sustainable practice the way that it's being done but there's also even bigger threats to the environment in the form of root plowing all the territory to build walmart's and subdivisions in different things in south texas because most of that land is privately owned done and it is difficult because there is a belief in the native american turkey has to be an outdoor natural grown campi a greenhouse cultivated plants because part of the potency in the values from its interaction with nature so it's it's if its sustainably harvested were only the crown of the cactuses removed with its long carrot liked uproot is left in the soil it can regenerate new heads but if people don't have proper harvesting techniques it can decimate the population very quickly especially because it's not a very potent substance it requires many of these ultra ultra ultra slow growing plan
wow so what is the natural territory of and how wide is the natural territory of these plants i can't tell you exactly but it's not very large sofa got very popular than be a real problem yet it probably won't i mean it you know the people care most about it outside of the native american church are in trustingly cacti files in thailand and japan who grow it for purely aesthetic purposes because it's so beautiful they and they would never even consider because to them it's this prized ornamental plant that produces amazing fruit and flowers and lives seemingly forever and if you take care of it it can just look raising so those there's a huge pay already seen in thailand of people that we never would dream of consuming the just growed ornamental while now san pedro cactus does that have psychoactive prominent absolutely us and bid you have to extract a different way like
nobody can be consumed raw with some varieties of san pedro they actually contain comparable quantities of mescal and parity and its it's more sustainable source of masculine for that reason it grows unlike pity grows very very quickly and and can be propagated by cutting easily in it you know it's much easier work with but traditionally if you go to peru they'll take a length of cactus and we'll cut it like a loaf of bread into slices then they boil those slices and create a sort of low potency aqueous infusion that they drink and with interesting about the way they do it is that it seems it it's almost designed to create a lower potency drink
where they do it they drink every night the chairman's every night of their entire life and many people come back into it repeatedly and for them it's sort of its like a traditional form of micro dosing you could say it's not allowed blasting yourself into the cosmos the way people do when they spoke dm tee this is about fortifying your body giving yourself strength in yourself balancing yourself in other people to consume roswell not that saw there now low but people do what people do i have and what is the effect is comparable to the pay only affect its comparable but it's the aids comparable but again it get begets very hard because of these variations with natural targets in terms of the potency
actors in that point in your life and you know people always come up to me and say what's the deal with em dna it used to be like this and now it's like this what accounts for that it's like will don't underestimate your own changes over time when i was twenty one i could drink alcohol not that i did very often but i could not want to kill myself next day now if i try to drink more than three drinks i may feel horrible the next dangling just emotion ruined and that's me not alcohol now you brought up the term hypnotic in made me read remind reminded me of our conversation that we had through email about roseanne bar oh yeah yeah right oh yes or see ass about ambien and about the effects of ambient she came on so she still hasn't she can't she's having a really hard time with this she feels
terrible about what she said she feels like the whole world hates her she feels like she's lost everything in her life is destroyed and she's distraught and she he was going to fly out here but we had a conversation and weaker decided be probably better if she waited just let let someone is passed by it still in the news because i've decided to me the show on without her there they're gonna kill her off or something and she's just devastated and you know she was also devastated health wise physic lee she's an older woman and nodded a benign differences older it's older person in this group ruling schedule of doing a television show was horrible on urges it was really really tough to do she got bronchitis she felt she was almost dying choose to completely exhausted and she fell
scheduled at all just was just wait two taxing are physically on top of that she's on a host of different things she's a mean show with we ever do and up sitting down and talk on the podcast i'll get her to to list the various she's on but she's on various antidepressants the changes a mob mixes the mob she was one thing she said to me she's she's ok doses readjusted she drinks i'll call regularly smokes marijuana regularly she's off on ambient regulate takes it every night go to sleep and i tried to explain to her that like that you're not getting real sleep when you're on that this is not something you should take and rely on a daily basis they even tell you to get off of it and it's it's and it's difficult to get off of it but people want to dismiss the idea that she could have said something that is completely out of character we're done something is completely out of character while under the info
once this stuff that it could have contributed to that want to dismiss it because they want a villain they want you know no she's bad they want does like this child like simplistic reasoning and rationalization for what she's done right and if as you know the prime example this rifts gets a frantic nature of the way drugs are depicted in our society if its it if it something like bath salts or k to their responsible for everything one toke of that stuff in europe eating your best friends face under a age but then in rosanna case they have no explanation whatsoever no exculpatory value they can be used to explain any thing is it an excuse no is an explanation i think yes i think that in time education can explain all sorts of inappropriate behaviour and to pretend otherwise is again
honest i am sent off he the pharmaceutical company the manufactures ambien at this widely shared tweet saying that racism is in a side effect of ambient but it's a little bit ridiculous for them to have done that certainly to someone who's mentally ill because you know if you look at the medical literature the fact of the matter is that ambient is associated with all sorts of absurd behaviors command hallucinations where people stab themselves jump out windows people that you know butter their cigarettes and smoke them people that paint there i was in the middle of the night with no memory whatsoever in its a profoundly profoundly dis inhibiting drug so you know your ears maybe a somewhat analogous example from my life i never take ambient on planes for this reason because amounts to there is i don't know what i'm gonna say or what i'm gonna do let alone use twitter but i dont lights uncomfortable because it so disinheriting i might do something we hear it i don't know take off my shirt i have no idea you who's to predict what you're gonna do
when you have no inhibitions whatsoever so i remember once on the plane to berlin and i did take ambien and i start in this delusional state thinking that the cabin crew and the person that's announcing over the intercom is sing various nazi things that's like an fair stereotyped that all germans or nazis that's offensive but i had no control over this like just because their german talking in german doesn't mean that this is like a nazi airship because you're just completely out of your mind but again i'm you now
another story i used to be friends with a girl who is doubtless a psychiatrist proscribed ferments quantities of ambient and she would snored it there's no reason to start its water soluble has a fast onset of action is no benefit and starting at its fine orally if you're gonna take it on there's no reason to take high doses it's already at delirium at the therapeutic dose you don't need to take more even five milligrams induces delirium but but i remember i was at some party and someone was saying that they wanted ketamine doing at the party of ketamine and just a complete stranger and i said oh i actually have a little bit of ketamine but it's at my apartment here the keys and here's my address and i just run over to my apartment and protect and help yourself talk to you later and and then i m one of these people
we're lost my phone never lost my keys i dont lose things said i wake up the next morning go to my apartment regions my pocket my keys are gone and then it hits me this flash of oh my god i gave my keys away to a complete stranger to go to my permanent take ketamine from me what on earth was i thinking what like what level of disintegration is required to do something that insane luckily i was there had spent or ass the day tracing finding out with a person was getting my keys in these people happened to be very courteous people actually did go to my apartment did take that's what and of ketamine i had and then just lock the door after themselves it didn't make a mass but again amuses lies you this is a profoundly does inhibiting substance and also i think the idea that a drug couldn't modulate racist acts it is interesting as well because he's a study that you can look up where they use the beta blocker proportional and they
did it actually seems to block racial implicit racial bias in people in certain tests that what their suggesting is that there is an address urgent component to implicit racial bias loses certain maybe heart rate or fear response and once that that's physiologically blocked you become less racist in a sense implicitly it's not a conscious decision conscious racism isn't reduce but an implicit racial bias is i mean these are like really complicated higher level questions about how drugs impact cognitive functioning and and the bottom line think is be careful as being certain about anything but what drugs can or cannot do what is this germ of this is the story blood pressure drug reduces in built but is that word in built racism
common heart disease drug may have an unusual side effect of combating racism wasn't that a fuckin those that stupid movie with jack nicholson and helen hunt is good as it gets he was a racist and they gave a pill gave him some medication reduced racism it stopped him from being racist well i completely forgot i remember it cause i was angry because a bunch people from the day i was work on tell so this time but we were talking about how great a movie it was it was as weird dark sort of film and outside movie fuckin socked it was so depressing woman she's guy you know she's like a waitress in jack nicholson's is all racist asshole and she's relying on him for some real reason just can't find a new one whose nice to her and and he's racists but that the the the resolve of the film was that he just was sick and they gave him
medication wasn't race anymore i'm like a fuck area that doesn't make any sense meanwhile maybe does ambient is an amazing amazing substance i made a piece about a call the ambient effect years ago turnover familiar the people who are paralyzed too take ambient and start walking again it has the power to regenerate regions of the two regions activity in regions of the brain that look dad on f mri it is a wacky drugget also quickly very similar to five bethel dm t it's it's not it's not like benzodiazepines like volume it has its own bizarre structure and me it's a weird drug so when these people are paralyzed by they paralyzed what was wrong with the strokes traumatic brain injury various reasons is a book about it called hope in brain damage italy the title of it is
an indian somehow another temporarily fixes it yes temper only for the duration of the drug effects of those people that are in it you know persistent vegetative state they take ambien and suddenly they wake up what the far yes it's pretty it's well documented and it's a really bizarre effect that is exclusively present in ambient may be slightly backlit ends well yeah i thought that the statement that the pharmaceutical company made about racism not being side effect was kind acute scan a witty very starkey yes but the problem with that shit is well what are the side effects and then you go into the actual side effectually holy shit how is this legal and then you go into the salaries of what is this doing people like well we're here's another one is supposedly increases consolidate of negative memories woe yeah there's a lot of weird stuff negative
increases consolidation native memories causes just total hallucinatory insanity at higher doses maybe the most powerful dis inhibiting agent i am aware of and is able to restore cognitive and motor functioning in people traumatic brain injuries what are we drug very weird and not knots something people should be taking every day just not it's certainly addictive means tat you know it's not a benzodiazepines itself it binds to the benzodiazepines site on the gap a receptor but yes no it's addictive its super addictive so for that reason alone people should be taking it every day because you'll become horrendously dependent on it and withdrawal is ruthless gets he lit withdrawal is total insomnia so most people just go right back to it or you know
and then trans like you can transition on two different types of hypnotic slick taking an anti call an urgent click than a drill to sleep or cannabis lloyd's cannabis things like that or you know just things it dont bind the garb of a receptor in order to try to reduce tolerance there's ways around it you're not doomed if you start taking it but it's it's certainly habit forming in something that's best to avoid if you dont require it and it doesn't give you real sleep correct i mean you're you're missing some part of the sleep cycle the doktor matthew walker was on yours asleep sleep specialist and he went his depth but i really dont remember egg is exact description talking about how it i pass certain cycles and you're you're not getting a real night sleep i am not aware of that
i mean the truce with surprise me hugely in others still debate about what the most restful part of sleep is i think most literature points actually non ram sleep slow wave sleep being the most restful type in that actually supported or promoted by chemicals like moscow more from the emanated miscarry a mushroom on that in the end there is one pharmaceutical derivative called gearbox at all that i did an episode about on then recent season of my show and that really does produce incredibly restful sleep that is superior to ambien but like ambient it was also psychedelic even more psychedelic probably so this is an issue at sea if whatever reason a lot of these drugs really promote sleep effectively also happen to be hallucinogenic and nobody knows exactly why but it's been a pharmaceutical barrier because
we don't live in a culture that allows people to go not at night yeah no kidding i'm glad you brought up to amity damask area because that's another one that is almost like a drug of law for more than a drug application you don't really here too much while people getting real good experiences no we don't but it's also connected to the sick mushroom in the cross the cover of it from john mark or allegro has an m emanated scarier he saw that the eminent a was probably linked to psychedelic states and pre christianity we we don't know right he's such a salacious wacky guy mousing oh yeah yeah absolutely i mean he he was getting off on it he loved it love getting off on freaking
people out of our eking out christian i was up you can underestimate what he was saying he was saying all christianity is sex call that worships a fungal phallus semen of that values are the spores yeah that's all she is an ancient fertility called that's a big claim from a serious oxford educated dead sea grow scholar who is respected up until that point yeah who is also an ordeal minister yeah i mean there's a great book true that argues that this is all some kind of cynical attack on the christian religion and that he didn't even believe it himself the issue is that in order to carefully examined claims you need to speak what is an ancient era may occur some now so it's like it doesn't in a position reading his book which is all having to do with the etymology of these words their origins in different languages i just don't know
enough about these ancient languages to make aid and informed assessment of his claims but which is i think one reason that this kind of hung around in this law for such a long time because it's hard for people to say with certainty if their true or not although i lean to them toward them probably not being well supported the clause wise you seems to wacky because they're not i haven't seen an integrated into any serious work since not that's necessarily goes argument it to take lot of education to be able to even did understand whether or not that debate is cogent right right it is the same dealey i encounter the sometimes unlike really fringe aspects of physics and chemistry were someone will make some kind of wacky argument
the way atoms bond or something like that and it's like its it gets hard because you only have like a small handful of people that are capable of seriously evaluating the claims able to weigh in and then it doesn't really get vetted in a serious way things just linger around is maybe it's true maybe it's not by tom but the boy mine is a most people don't get a valuable experience from these mushrooms but some do some people figured out how to make it work and the experiences again it's you know its own thing it's a gabert ergic delirium takes you into a dreamy drunk zone yeah it's it's in many ways a toxin right it's toxic can some forms well it contains another chemical it botanic acid that is potentially very toxic
it hasn't really been examined in fact it also contains a complex of this element vanadium that could potentially be toxic as well so there are some legitimate toxicity concerns that i think anyone whose consuming it should be aware of the ideal situation would be isolated mosque em all but it's hard to extract but yet it's connected in so much our work and so so much ancient depictions of as particularly of christmas cards is always elves in these little emanated miscarry caps right will drugs aside you have to acknowledge that it's a spectacularly beautiful mushroom made you i've gone mushroom hunting all over the world and there is no question that when you see that mushroom in habitat that it's completely
spectacular there's nothing else like it it is magical experience just looking at it ran across it only once in colorado in the woods and whose maison take his bit it was a big one toothless big beautiful red with white dots like one most gorgeous things you could ever see growing yeah yeah legal right you une its legal to possess again yes it's legal because it's not gonna do anything to enjoy a bill for most people but is it possible that we just are doing it wrong and that the information has been lost as to how to cause aloud but i felt like it might have been a part of summer which has really been defined as to what sohmer is bright we had those those debates not really my my cup of tea rise it's like just tons of guys push this or that i'm move without like a lot of evidence one way or the other and so i dont know and their sheep that argue that year and drink
somehow yeah wired to concentrate lee moscow more in one way or another you know if you want to learn about it i think the best way to do it is actually through the other related drug outbox at all which is almost developed by mark as a competitor for ambien and there's some high dose reports have got box at all they give you a much clearer example and from my own experience as well of what the potential of that class is and it's very different it's every bit as powerful as i awash or something like that but completely different in its hard to articulate all these things are hard to articulate but it's something that's been experienced by relatively few people so you don't even have this site virtual or metaphorical vocabulary for it the way that i had it most powerful he was once i was doing a shoot for vice on hbo and they told me i had to go to tokyo with it less than twenty four hours notice
and that i had to start filming as soon as the plane landed couldn't go to the hotel rooms i thought all right this is serious no messing around no time for jet lag like i've got it fall asleep at ten p m that night wake up at eight a m now morning i've gotta be awake all day seminar pharmacological force this a little bit nominating a really high dose of this must mole derivative at night and do sleep and i'll take after all during the day i was the plan so i took a high dose and believe it was forty five milligrams but don't quote me on that of this moscow mole derivative that's about the same potency and at the equivalent of what would have been two p dot m new york time which i think is crucial because these things are are hypnotics induce sleep so if you take it during the day for less likely to sleep through the whole experience and it was under i mean i i i couldn't stand them the intensity of what i experienced it was you know just this rushing sense of of becoming a pass
of observer in my own consciousness and seeing all my thoughts produced by someone else that were racing at a speed that was so fast that i found it physically dizzying and had to lay down and i felt as if like the acceleration was pushing me toward an ultimate state that was sleep and sleep in death represented the ultimate state of consciousness so it was it was and then in a network of aden work the next day and if so how did you sleep well actually had the sir transformative existential trip accidentally but had to her but try to since just purposely fur in a couple of times it did you ever recreate that kind of experience no because it was it was a bit much i would say and i know
people that have taken even more and a u turns into just your entire visual field transforming into rotating cubes where each face of the queue represents a different aspect of your life your future your past your present you know really dramatic stop so i that potential exists with high dose moscow more it's hard for people to ingested because of all the other material in the mushroom and the disgustingness can so is it possible that we just did much like people have sort of altered many different things like we tomatoes have you that at one point tom the mushroom was somehow different oh yeah well yes absolutely the evolutionary chemical history of all these different plants is a fascinating subject is premature lost a history you know there's
no like archaeological alkaloid analysis that i'm aware of but it would be so fascinating to know because all of these natural products of all just like the plants that contain them what were the intermediate materials what drugs have gone extinct have our ancestors dr certain psychoactive plants to extinction is applying called sophia that some people have argued that may have happened with those of fennel derivative earlier than all related plant but yeah i mean it's really and we ve seen it with cannabis you know that och market encourage everyone to produce teach see dominant strains because that was the most most stoning most bang fear back now now we have the ability to change the evolutionary direction of the plant and to encourage the production of cbs or c b g or teach see or c b d or whatever whom so we
you talk about a plant like the pale cactus that grows so incredibly slow and you know if it that became some that was highly sought after very very valuable it could conceivably wiped out yes yes specially something really so so there could have been substances like that there were very geographically local very small area there just gone yeah it's just a thought i just had totally none evidence based but it would be crazy if a lot of the reason that a lot of these psychoactive plants at present today tend to be less addictive because all the addictive ones were harvested to extinction now and some years ago maybe something like that i mean these things do happen if i guess i didn't i didn't know we really would have any way of knowing but fossilized plants re it certainly didn't happen with cocoa contains cook
in order to answer it probably didn't happen that way but you know you just don't know here and i had read some theories that its conceivable that emanated mascara very seasonably so you have to figure out like when is the right time to harvest because there are some plans although of course fungus is really a plant has caught the opposite of a plan that we ingest oxygen it takes in carbon it takes an oxygen a breeze out carbon dioxide mecca like an animal does but that its power possible that these things very seasonably that you have to catch them within a window of time and that they are very geographically like some places they might be more potent like you know q been cigars grown on specific lan ever distinctly more you no more potent taste to them oh yeah absolutely because the bio synthetic precursors for all of these natural ex come from the soil typically amino acids and things like that and in its all going to teach
age there is an amazing experiment that was done where they started doping the substrate of source been containing mushrooms with other tripped means so they used instead of these d and d i t put it in the substrate and they found that the mushroom would take that completely synthetic chemicals does not occur in nature it would then for hydroxyl eight and all ring just like it were a citizen derivative and create natural product derivatives of these synthetic materials creating these semi synthetic bridges between man and mushroom creations jesus yeah yeah i mean like why the synthetic natural dichotomy doesn't make sense everything's evolving its constant interplay between human and plant and fungus ino afterwards gone all of our plastic bottles are gonna be consumed by some bacterium that evolves to degrade all these you know paul memories and that would create natural pro
eggs from them and will those natural products be natural products because they were derived from substrate that we created turns into like a very complex the issue which is why i don't believe in the idea of natural synthetic everything is simultaneously natural and simultaneously synthetic who everything comes from earth yet so even the most unnatural things that human beings have created are in a sense natural creations like a bee creates a beehive be hives unnatural creation right mind farc so to get back to emanate miscarry it do you know of any one whose effectively regularly use that as a psychedelic yes i've never been not people who i wacky people yeah i would imagine yeah not people or its neck ass a professor unease is emanate every night to leave these doing really well but yes wacky people to so much lower again
tat to it specifically because the christian mean the books by allegro were of were big right one of them was the dead sea squirrels and the christian myth and was one of his book now is the second birthday published after the sacred mushroom in the cross i think he did that because they took the sacred mushroom and across off the market right like what did the catholic church by out the rights for that was at a myth is well i can remember something along those lines but yon urban republished it failed recently with the the blessings of the allegro family but d the justice the whole connection to santa claus and connection to christmas with that mushroom its there's so much attached mushroom people want that mushroom to be jesus there that's the one you know us the way it's the prettiest it's like it grows it's gotta michael riser relationship of coniferous trees i find it underneath pine trees just like the shiny
presents underneath a christmas tree so people get so excited about the mushroom yes they do vienna gets off on it tat black people yeah it's it's a complicated situation and you know just because something is convenient isn't a good reason to say that it's the truth like there are other psychoactive mushrooms that may have been used in the past there once it we ve discovered recently visited species called road oakley be immaculately as far as i know there no information on humans consuming this mushroom but it contains salvadoran a type kappa opiate agonists this could be a completely different type of psychedelic mushroom no information on and exists maybe someone used it somewhere in the past i don't know why well isn't there there are some psychedelic substances that have been discovered that have no history of human use like is in hawaii baby woodrow says i would hate sat doesn't have lsd like properties but no history of human use that account
the key question gathers maybe not with wine baby would rose but with morning glory seeds there does seem be some measure american history although it's not as well found did and mourning glory seas will put you on the moon right what they they contain ella say and dumb the analyses actually albert hoffman did is the inventor jealousy did an experiment where he checked himself in small quantities of ls abe there aren't many evaluations of the pure material so the exact nature of the different components in those seeds remains a little bit mysterious as far as i'm concerned some people suggested its strongest naturally occurring so it s like other people will say that it's not even psychedelic at all that it's just a hypnotic adjust has assertive sedating quality i've used wine baby wardrobes many many years ago
damn it certainly psychoactive whether our colleague classically psychedelic is a complicated issue it's kind of a good dreamy unpleasant delirium any other ones we could go no further weird watch my ship i think you'd really like it i'm sure like it i like all you stuff ok because it goes into lots i just don't have enough time i know i care too many things that are cool now yeah that's why the problems with netflix in age be oh and of youtube and just too much cool stuff yeah but this will be cool i will definitely watch it those three hours man is flew by were not crazy that is
time more purveyor so why listen this is way better than the first time we did is we are here think gotta lotta cool information now in a really appreciate you coming back man thanks for has actually do this again but not in seven years to quicker yes i hope a sure thing in on twitter and instagram its hamilton morris and your shows hamiltons pharmacopoeia its is it available online is people watch it online yes on hulu and streaming on amazon and streaming on itunes and its on vice land as well so easy to find thanks man that was awesome we share thank you view everyone for tuna into the pot cast an thank you tourist sponsors thank you two black rifle coffee visit black rifle coffee dot com slash rogan and receive fifteen posts of your order of fantastic delicious coffee and again they if a portion of their sales to veterans causes we choose black rifle you choose
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Transcript generated on 2020-10-07.