Jordan Peterson is a clinical psychologist and tenured professor of psychology at the University of Toronto. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL_f53ZEJxp8TtlOkHwMV9Q All Dr. Peterson’s self-improvement writing programs at www.selfauthoring.com 20% off for Rogan listeners. Code: ROGAN
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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with speeches well lectures discuss. This is regarding I think, of the mass yeah. Yes, I'm discussing, I mean you might think it's kind of perverse to be discussing with a three thousand person audience, but it's not because if you pay attention to the audience they're constantly in the individuals in the audience there constantly providing feedback. So it's a discussion as far as I'm concerned feedback in applause laughter. Sometimes they shout things how to write shuffling, shuffling yeah? Well, really what you want if you're on track, if you're, where you should be, then it's dead, silent and everyone's focused and listening, and so, if that's not happening, I mean you know there could be laughter and that kind of thing. But, generally speaking, you don't wanna hear noise from the audience. So if, if you're, if you're on, if you're
pursuing a complicated topic and you're paying attention and I'm always looking at individual people in the audience. You know in the first few rows 'cause, that's all I can see because of the lights, I'm trying to make sure that everyone's on track with the talk- and you know, there's people gesture with their face and they gesture with their eyes and they shake their head and they nod and there's lots of things to pick up. If you're, not speaking with notes, you can really pay attention to the audience, and then you know, if you're in the dialogue and that's where everyone wants to be yeah. It's an interesting thing. You're doing, because you have x It's in doing that with lectures in colleges and universities, but now it's the general public and people just pay to see it and you pull up these huge gigantic theaters. I mean seen some of the places that you guys are doing it you,
Sam. Just got done doing one in Vancouver and she she would you like to to to that's rare yeah back to back, and yes, it was about five hours of intense discussion over two days and you know we were supposed to talk for an hour each night and then go to Q NA, but we ask the audience Brett Weinstein, who was moderating, asked the audience if they wanted to go to Q a day or continue the discussion, and you know the the response from the crowd was definitely continue. The discussion, and so we ended up talking for about two and a half hours each night and again it was the audiences along for the ride. You know when they were good discussions. As far as I'm concerned, you know it was kind of marketed as a take down in some sense Harris versus Peterson right, but the discussion itself was an attempt on SAM's part and my part to further our thinking about the topic and
bring everyone along for the ride. You know for the journey so to speak, yeah. Well, you guys had to podcast that you did over the phone. So this these were the first meetings you guys had in person. It was the first time I met SAM. Is it the first one one that you two had was marred by this discussion about what is truth yeah and it was like a strange sort of you got stuck. You guys got kind of stuck in that first conversation, but I felt like the second one was much better. You mean in both both of you kind of recognized. There was some error made in the first podcast yeah, we ordered in on a definition and and yeah I'd go, and so that wasn't so good yeah and I wasn't in tip top shape for that first discussion well over the second one for that matter, but they've been getting each discussion. I've had with SAM. It's been getting better Seoul as far as I'm concerned,
I think he feels the same way and I mean we're we're trying to sort something out. That's really really difficult and it's the relationship between facts and values, which is parallel to the relationship between, say, objective, truth and narative narrative or parallel to the distinction between scientific fact and religious truth. All of those things sort of are layered on top of each other and it's an extraordinarily difficult topic, and so it's not surprising that it's taking all of this discussion to even vaguely get it straight. It's been a central bone of contention among philosophers, for well, probably forever, but certainly since the time of David Hume several one hundred years well, one of the more fascinating things it's coming out of the realm of podcasting is these kind of discussions. These long form I've discussions in front of enormous groups of people where you go over very complex issues. It's a new thing, I mean, and it's it's something that's great
you received by the public, which is really interesting. I mean you guys, are selling out all over the place yeah. Well. I've really been trying to make sense of this because I'm thinking well what the hell is going on, buy a might selling out three thousand person auditoriums and then, and then, but not just me. Obviously, SAM is doing it and you're doing something on a larger scale, but very similar with your long form, podcasts and and and then there's this whole rise of of what Barry Weiss described as the intellectual dark web. That's actually Eric Weinstein's, coinage and so there's a group of us, the debates
of clumped together for for reasons that aren't obvious. But I've been trying to figure that out as I do these lectures. Another thing I'm doing with the lectures or the discussions is trying to continually further the development of my ideas. I use the the the stage I'd say as a as a opportunity in real time to think I've been thinking if you're surfing you don't confuse yourself with the wave right that that's a real mistake. You might be on top of the wave but you're not the way, and I think this long form discussion and the public Connor for that is best conceptualized like that. There's a technological revolution, it's a deep one. The technological revolution is online video and audio immediately excess. Able to everyone all over the world, and so what that's done is it turned turned the spoken word into a tool that has the same reach as the printed word. So it's a Gutenberg revolution in the domain of video and audio and it might be even deeper than
the original Gutenberg Revolution, because it isn't obvious how many people can read, but lots of people can listen and now it turns out. So I mean you got a little bit of that with tv right and you got a little bit of a trip with radio, but there was bandwidth limitations that were really stringent, especially in tv where you could get thirty seconds if you were lucky in six minutes. If you were, stellar- to to elucidate a complicated argument. So you can't do that everything gets compressed to to a kind of oversimplified entertain But now, all of a sudden, we have this forum for long form, discussion, real long form, discussion and it turns out everyone is way smarter than we thought right. We can have these discussions publicly and there's a great hunger for it, and I see this parallel so and this would be what would you call it supporting evidence for this hypothesis? The same things happened in the entertainment world because you know tv made us think. Well, we can handle a twenty minute, sitcom or maybe
we can handle an hour and a half made for tv movie, but then Netflix came along and HBO was well with the bandwidth restrictions. Gone and all of a sudden it turned out that known all. We can handle forty hour complex, multilayered narratives, where the character shift, where the complexity starts, to reach the same complexity, great literature and there's a massive market for it, and so it turns out that we're smarter than our technology revealed to Us- and I think those of us who've been placed in this intellectual dark web group. You know there's some things we have in common, we more or less have independent voices because we're not beholden to any corporate masters except peripherally and we've been operating in this long form, space and the technology has facilitated that, and so all of a sudden, it turns out that there's more to people than we thought, and thank God for that. I'm struggling with I want to. I want to use the word hate
seems to be a non ic acceptance or a resistance to the idea that anything of quality could come out of this group of people. It's really interesting to me and I'm wondering why, when and I listen to you, speak or SAM or Eric or any these people Ben or day Dave, and I hear very interesting points and I'm like: why are people resisting that these are interesting points? Why they resisting this, and I think, There's a lot of people that are behold into mainstream organizations, whether it's newspapers or magazines or television shows that feel trapped. I think they feel trapped by this format that their stuff. Skin. It's a very limiting format and it's a format. That, in my opinion, is like I mean it might as well be smokes signals, are ham, radio or something it's fucking dumb. You know this this idea you're going to go to commercials every fifteen minutes and you know
between. You have fifteen people, arguing I mean I'm. I watched a panel on CNN once and I I would think we counted ten people that were trying to talk during this five minute. Second, MIKE who, what genius thought that it would be a good idea to get ten people struggling for air time barking over for each other. No one saying anything that makes any sense, because everybody's talking over and trying to stand out and trying to say the most outrageous things Anne I'm seeing like some of the resistance to this when we span pretty far from SAM and I lean more or left and Ben leans more right, and you know what you would call a class make liberal and Eric's very difficult to define and Brett is fiercely progressive. I mean these are brat in particular that very left wing guy, but this desire to label in to hatch, of this diminishing label is like all right or right,
wing or fascist. It's very strange to make it well there's a couple of things going on. I think one of them is that the technological transformation and I laid out and then the other is that I do believe that, especially for the radical leftist types, the whole notion of free speech, which among individuals is not only anathema, but also something that isn't possible within their framework of reference, have been trying to think this through very carefully, because you know free speech in some senses become identified as a right wing issue, and I thought well how the hell did that happen, and then I thought. Oh, yes, well, if you're radically left and you're playing the identity, politics game, there's actually no such thing as free speech, because you're only the mouthpiece of your group, whether you know it or not, so you don't get to talk, is Joe Rogan you get to talk, is like Joe Rogan patriarchal White guy not yet sit. Your utterances aren't a reflection of your own opinions as an individual, but there an attempt on your
whether you know it or not, to justify your position in the power hierarchy and and everything right now and- and this is where the technology and the death of the mainstream media and this and this political polarization all unite. Everything is too, into a political conversation in the in the mainstream media and media, and it has to be cast as left versus right and, if you're criticizing, the left and all of a sudden, you're right and right wing, and it has to be about politics. So I call it doesn't have to be a politics. You could be about philosophy, it doesn't have to be cast in political terms and, and then it's also subject to a a form of of well. It is made stupid than it has to be by these terrible bandwidth limitations. Like I mean I've been on mainstream tv talk, shows, and it's very strange experience, because you're definitely content
you know: Marshall Mcluhan said the medium is the message right, the medium shapes the dialogue and it does it in great in great in in in a in a tremendous way powerful way. You go on tv, talk, show, and maybe it's an hour long, something like that and there's five guests and you've got your eight minutes, something like that and you have to be bright and chipper and entertaining and intelligent and sort of glitzy and it. Puts that facade of momentary, charisma on you, and if you don't play that out, you actually fail because you can't start a along form discussion when you've got six minutes and if you're trying to talk about something, that's deep and difficult.
Well, you want to talk about it because you've got the access then and the opportunity. But you've got your your six minutes. You can't help but turn into sort of a glitzy entertainer, and so it cheapens everything and then the other thing that I think is happening is that as the mainstream media, television in particular dice the the quality people are starting to desert like rats leaving a sikh sinking ship. I guess the good rats if the quality people but and then that the there's ever more enticement to use click bait journalism to attract a diminishing portion of the remaining audience. You know it's like one of the things that's happened. So if you look at the five major indices of violent crime in the United States, the debt they they declined by fifty percent in twenty five years, it's absolutely beyond comprehension, it's so good. This includes violent gun crime by the way, and yet the reports of violence in media have gone up and up and up and up think well. What's going on, it's like well, it's it's! It's click bait, it's the is it
it's the equivalent of clickbait and then to turn everything into a polarized. Political discussion takes no real intellectual enerji, but it's also draw given by the death spiral of the classic media. I think- and I think that's actually why the polarization seems to be so acute now. Some of it is genuine, but some of it is some of it is the consequence of this underlying technological transformation and the death throes of the smoke signalers. Fundamentally, what you're talking about when you're saying people, especially radical leftists have to concede certain points whenever they discuss things that this is so true and so important, because you see that play out over and over again there very little variation from official narrative when they talk about important subjects or controversial subjects, whatever they are, whether it's you know, Transgen rights or whatever, whatever is in the news. That's big and you know that it's very popular right now there's these
these certain things that you're not want to deviate from and that it's an insanely restrictive perspective and it who is establishing these norms like who's. A staff question yeah. Yahoo is why I blame. I blame the universities in large part for this, the activist disciplines, but that's only a partial answer, because the universities are uh so responding to legislation like title nine, so and so, and so they've been driven into they explain title nine for people so Title IX. Title IX originally was just a piece of legislation that ensured that women would have equal access to sports events and so forth at the universities. That's what it was designed for, but it's been come this umbrella legislation that pushes equality of outcome, essentially across every possible
mentioned in the universities, and it's been used as a weapon by the radical left. But you know some of that's driven by legislative necessity. What what's happening? What was the reason that I think this is coming from the universities is because I don't think that this could well. There's all these activist disciplines that are essentially subsidized by two high tuition fees and also by state funding and they've produced an entire substructure of of activists and those activists are doing everything they can to lay out the theoretical structure for the radical left and that's a that's a structure that involves there's buzz words right. Diversity is one, but that means diversity by race and ethnicity and and sexual preference, for example, as it as, if those have anything to do with, anyone diversity of mediation and they don't and there's no evidence that they do include tivity, I'm never even sure what that means, equity, which is uh
marker for what would you call it? It's a code word in some sense for equality of outcome, which is absolutely deadly doctrine. I think of all the mistakes that the radical left or make and the moderate left for not calling them out on it. The equity doctrine is at the top of the list. Now, there's other associated things like white privilege, that's a good one and systemic bias and which is it it's an absolute embarrassment from the perspective of a of a reasonable academic psychologist, because psychological tests have been used to prove that there's, this implicit bias that lurks everywhere and the tests aren't reliable and valid enough to make that claim that even the people who made the test, the implicit association test have admitted, except for maser and Bonagee, who is the chairman of the Department of Psychology at Harvard they've, admitted that the tests aren't reliable and valid enough
be used for the purposes there be using for and there's also no evidence at all that these unconscious buying bias, re training seminars have any effect whatsoever. That's positive! It's all nonsense! Pushed by this, the the the the ideological, what Foreman nations of the radical left is there any benefit in having these conversations talking about implicit bias is an recognizing that there's extreme push back against racism or sexism, and all these different things, and that, even though, these things these these, these ideas that they're pushing might not be tested and proven. The idea of putting it out there in the mainstream that there's a shift in consciousness in terms of like how, call will or won't except racism or sexism or home to be, or whatever else is being discussed that maybe it's far left
but maybe it's moving the needle towards where it needs to be. I think that, well that I think that happened so I mean I certainly believe that there's space and necessity for a constant dialogue between the left and right. This is also something that I've been developing more particularly during these lectures. So so I'm going to lay out a couple of proposition. So imagine that you have to move forward in the war Do you have to do things and the reason you have to do things is because well, if you just sit there and don't do anything, then you suffer and die so that isn't an option you have to move forward. You have to move forward towards valued things, so you have to have a value hierarchy. It has to be hierarchy because one thing has to more important than another, or you can't do anything right, you're here to split with your choices, you have to do things you have to value. You have to value some things more than others. Then you have to act out what you value in the social environment, because you're a social creature and you're not to do things alone. Then, as soon as you start to act out things of value in the social environment, you inevitably produce a hierarchy,
and the reason you do. That is because, no matter what you're acting out, some people are way better at it than others, and it doesn't matter it doesn't matter if it's basketball or rocky or plumbing or law doesn't matter as soon as something valuable and you're doing it collectively. There's a hierarchy! Ok, so then what happens? Well, the hierarchy can get corrupt and rigid and and then it stops rewarding competence and it starts rewarding criminality in power, and so there's always the danger. The hierarchy will become corrupt, the right wingers say we really the hierarchies and we should abide by them- that's sort of the motif of patriotism and and and and and and and positive group identity, and the left wingers say yeah, but wait a second there's a problem here, a your hierarchy can get corrupt and might and B.
Because some people are way better at it than others. You going to produce a bunch of dispossessed people at the bottom, and that's not only good, not only not good, for the dispossessed people, it actually threatens the whole hierarchy. So you have to be careful I have to attend to the windows and the children. Let's say the windows in the orphans. Ok, so now, and then now you think about that is an eternal problem you can't do without hierarchies, but and that's the right wing claim in some sense you can't do without her keys and their valuable, but they're also prone to corruption and they dispossessed people. Ok, so now that's an internal problem. King is what do you do about it and answer to that is there's no final answer to the problem. So what you have to do is you have to have left wing and you have to have a right wing
after talk all the time about whether the hierarchy is healthy and whether not it's dispossessing too many people and then the problem with that is, is that discussion can go too far, because the right wingers can say hierarchy overall. It's right that that that we've, the state, is correct and everything's right, and so that's the right wing totalitarian types and the left can say we'll flatten everything. So there's no inequality, and so both the left and the right can go too far. Now the problem is we don't? We know how to define. I think one of the problems is. We know how to define when the right goes too far. I think we learned that after world war, two, I think, if you're making claims of ethnic or racial superiority you get to be put in a box and put off the shelf right you're, not in the dialogue anymore. It's obvious that the left can go too far, even though they're necessary participants in the discussion, but we don't know when to we don't know how to define when they've gone too far and end up in, obvious example. No, you might think. Well, that's the moderate, leftists problem. It's there more
responsibility to dissociate themselves from the radicals, just as it's the moral responsibility of reasonable conservatives to dissociate themselves from the birch John Birch and Ku Klux Klan types, that's a very important point, but but the problem, but it isn't just the moderate lefts problem, because even the people on the right, don't know what to point to when they say no you've gone too far. As a leftist. Now I've tried to it's complicated because I think it's I'd be more than one policy. I think the really deadly leftist presumption is equality of outcome. I think, as soon as you start talking about equality of outcome. You should be put in a box and put off the shelf that, but it is obvious, why, like that doesn't sound like you know, white peep! Overall, it doesn't have the same guttural punch that the excess of the right house It's well you're for equality of outcome. Why is that bad? Well, it's bad, because when you play it out in society and there's endless evidence for this, it's
instantaneously murderous doctrine, and I think it's because it shifts so quickly into a victim. Victimizer narrative. I've had a great opportunity. In the last month and a half I got asked to write the preface to the 50th anniversary Edition of Soljan it since Gulag archipelago, and so I've been writing that and one of the things so and it's an did, which was one of the things he wanted. The things that made that book, arguably the greatest work of nonfiction of the 20th century. It's in the top ten anyways was to point out very clearly that the excess is of the Shin Revolution started right away. It wasn't that Lenin was a pretty good guy and then Stalin came in corrupted. Everything was like Lenin was not a pretty good guy. The revolution got bloody really fast and what seem to happen so, managing your your you start to divide the world up into oppressor and oppressed, right and you're. Gonna do something about the oppressors. The problem is, is that you can define people multiple ways. This is the intersection now the problem,
and almost everybody can be defined in terms of their group identity in some way that makes them an oppressor so like, if you're a black man. Well, you could argue that europress because you're black, but what about the fact that you're, a man and so does that make you know presser or someone who's depressed, and the answer is as revolution. Progress is, if there's any dimension along which you can be categorized as oh presser, you end up dead and so that's part of the path any of the quality of ot mean by that. Like you end up dead, you end up round yep. You ended up being put into the oppressor camp right
certainly there's only so far. You can go with that right mean, can put all men in the oppressor can't there be. No men left like what well that's how you yeah, but that that is not really sort of plays out. What is how it plays out when I look for equality of outcome? Well, it it is how it played out in the Soviet Union and China I mean in the Soviet Union. We don't know how many people died. The the the reasonable estimates look like about twenty five million. That's dead, that's not just that's not imprisoned that isn't families destroyed that's just dead and in my in my was China it might have approximated a hundred million just just internal repression, and so what what seems to happen as soon as you decide that the hierarchies unfair, because there are oppressors and oppressed, then you can go after the pray, there's with moral virtue. But the problem is: is that you there's almost no limit to the number of ways that you can categorize someone as an oppressor fit? The category just starts to expand, like the call
almost killed, all the socialists that killed all the religious people that killed most of the students that killed all the productive farmers and the key the productive farmers because they owned land. You know, and maybe little house in a few cows to be a successful farmer in Russia at the turn of the 20th. She didn't mean you were rich right. It just meant you weren't, starving, like that killed all those people because they were oh pressers. If they had more than someone else, that's how they define did in order to get the people to rally against it. Yes, yes, it's set yes and it, and that and the definition kept slipping because well, look Look even now. It's like. Let's say we rally against the one percent. You know and those would be the money owners. Let's say it's like ok who's in that group. Well, everybody in North America is in that group worldwide, yeah well who sets the parameters right. It's thirty, four, it's thirty! Four thousand dollars a year sets you in the one percent worldwide.
Right, so so does that make all of US oppressors pay? Basically, everybody lives above poverty in America is in the one percent of the world's right right and also by historical standards. Yeah, and so the problem is the problem with the press. Oral press narrative is that you can multiply the oppressors endlessly and there's no end to going after the right in as soon as you make a definition You can move the boundaries and then the next person is the aggressor. Then he keep going well, and you also see the interesting thing too. Is that- and this is complicated, so I've been thinking about this proclivity of the left to to destroy eight members of the moderate left. It's like there's the game. Part of the game is that's being played as far as I can tell the Indian Logically pathological game is I'm more virtuous than you now look if you're on the radick. Left, and you say well, you're more virtuous than a right winger. It's like well, who cares that's obvious, because the right wingers are are are, are you know, pathological so being more virtuous than them? That's not much of an attainment.
But if I have my moderate leftist compatriots, standing right beside me and he's pretty damn virtuous, but I'm even more virtuous than him, then that's a real, that's a real attainment on my part. It's a moral attainment with no effort, My part, if I can figure out some way of classifying that previously virtuous purse and as an oppressor along some dimension, then all of a sudden I get an increment, my moral virtue, and that happen all the time in these leftist revolutions run amok. That was just constant feature, so it's not good, it's not good. Why is it? This is something that's always puzzled me. Why is it that the left is defined by there's a certain values and one of is when you look at the right you, you automatically think of racism, potential racism at least dislike for gay people, homophobia there, sir qualities that
are always attributed to conservatives and then there, Sir in qualities or is that these are social things and that I'm I'm not quite sure I understand like. Why is it that the LE is always associated in support of gay rights. The left is always associated in support of of all races and all genders, and there I think it's the dispossessed. Issue again. So imagine, ok, imagine that we make these hierarchies and their hierarchies that are devoted towards a goal and that the sum total of all those hierarchies is something like the patriarchy. Even though I hate that word and something that I don't like that word at all, but but but that's where we're speaking within the confines of that there exists for defining how you're using it. What do you mean by the patriarch? Well, the patriarchy is, is is the sum total of all western hierarchies. Let's say it sorts the left is the radical leftist viz another, the sum total of all western Hierarchy- that's always mail. Well, that's the theory
is that it's male dominated what is a patriarchy. As of yet all yes, it worked well and it's a funny thing because, of course, there's lots of elements, there's lots of some elements of the patriarchy that aren't male dominated so pretty health care, for example, universities. The education system in general, there's lots of places where the these these sub out insert female dominated, so I don't know where to find is the patriarchy defined health care? So it's a good question Joe. I don't know what happens if you have The sub element of the patriarchy, that's dominated by women, is that still the patriarchy? It's like the structure is still intact. It's, performing the same function. Well now the web running. It was that the patriarchy and the answer to that is well we're all vega. But what the definition is. So we don't need to address that issue where some of the answers here some clear ones right like major corporations, the vast majority of ceos are male yeah. We think of that as part of the patriarchy government never been a mailman, never had a female president of vast majority,
if senators congressmen etc, mail yeah. So I guess we could say well. The patriarchy is all those elements of hierarchical structure that are still dominated by men on the course but military mail, mostly male right, but it's a it's a peculiar definition right because it means you have to you have to our fraction hate the patriarchy in two pieces, you can't you can no longer talk about it as uniform structure. If you're going to take out all those pieces that are dominated by women say. Well, that's not the patriarchy, but the thing is that the whole septicemia find so that it's it but Gars disk. But it's always you have our, though right I mean as well. That's that's the other thing. That's the claim. The other claim is that all hierarchies are predicated on power, which is a claim that absolutely appalling it's like plumbers. They part of higher curry hierarchy. You go roaming. Bands of armed aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying use our service, or else that's not how it works. You go look when you going looking for
summer, you go look for a massage therapist, you look or a surgeon for that matter or a lawyer. You go look for the person who's, most competent and one of the things the left can't tolerate is the idea that hierarchies are predicated in part even on confidence, which they clear, really are the best predictors for success in western hierarchies are intelligence and conscientiousness. Those are the best psychological predictors of success. They only account for about a third of the variation in success. Maybe a third is probably about right. So there's still lots of room for randomness and and even for system discrimination, but the ocean that are our systems, aren't predicated in part on competence is clearly wrong. No you asked a question about left is like wire, the left always on the side of the people, who don't fit in They are doing it so easily and at night. I think that is a matter of the consequence of hierarchical structures. Is that
so imagine in every hierarchy there, some people who don't do very well in any given hierarchy, then imagine then imagine across all the hierarchies that there's a subset of people. Very likely to not do well in any of them, so you might well there systemically discriminated against. The left would be on their side because they're on the site, even temperamentally, of the people who are dispossessed- and the thing about that- is that it's it's valid. Look we need? We need a spokesperson politically for the dispossessed. That's what the Democratic Party used to do when they work for the working class. Is the working class needed the political voices like okay? That's the Democrats, why do they need political voice? What to keep the hierarchy from degenerating into rigid tyranny as part of the political discussion, but now,
now the problem is is in process is the problem with the left? Is that well, what's the hierarchy? It's a tyrannical patriarchy, it's like no, it's not it's. Partly corrupt, like every system but it's less corrupt than most systems and there's a lot of elements of it there devoted towards self improvement Self Morning Frank, you have to be a little nuanced and subtle about these sorts of things, and you can't throw the baby out with the bath water in the leftist rhetoric has got so intense that the I, the idea is an people believe this well, the world is going to Hell in a handbasket. Everything is getting worse in all possible ways and they're systemic racism everywhere, and it's utterly unfair and it should be torn down and rebuilt. It's like no. It's actually functioning unbelievably well, even though it still has its problems. You know when there's a big dick between saying, they're, systemic racism everywhere and the reason
there isn't perfectly equal outcomes is because of prejudice and saying no, no look. The system is functioning art. Let's say it's: seventy five percent! It's doing all right. It's got some problems, including systemic prejudice, which hopefully will work themselves out across time and and which show every bit of evidence of doing so, and so we don't need a radical solution. You know one and one of the things I started to do with my twitter account is to tweet out good non naive news because one of the things that's happening in the world and has been half a dozen books on or more written in the last five years by credible people is that the distribution of the do of individual sovereignty and property rights and and free market economies etc. Out into the rest of the world, is making the non western
It's making the non western world rich, really really really fast. So between two thousand and two thousand and twelve, the rate of absolute poverty in the world fell by half half. It was the fastest period of economic development in human history we beat the? U N, we beat the optimistic. U N, target by three years. Stagger You know the the rates of child mortality in Africa are now lower than they were in Europe in nineteen. Fifty, the this growing economies in the world are in Sub Saharan Africa. Many many millions of people, millions of people a month are getting access to this incredible technology that somebody didn't cell phones, right. People have access to fresh water like they've, never had access before the child of the the kids are kids- are- are getting immunized at a rate. That's that's fun, for, let's, let's unprecedented and and yet we have this idea,
that's become rampant in the west that there's something ultimately corrupt about the patriarchal tyranny and that it has to be dismantled right down to its core and a lot of that's being taught by the activist disciplines in universities, and I just don't get it it's not. Acceptable. So they see these hierarchies and their proposed old two level everything off and to take away the insane power at the very top is a quality about com is on pro unproven in terms of it's never been the It's never been done successfully to a utopian right white and I also don't even think can do it in principle, because if you accept the proposition that the propositions I laid out, which is you have to pursue things of value and if you pursue things in a value in a social space, so you do it cooperatively and competitively competitively. Do with other people, then you're going to produce differential outcome, because people will be differently good at
Yes was like okay, you don't believe that it's like okay, do you listen to random selections of music online or you do what everyone else does you go for the one tenth of one percent of songwriters and you only listen to them. You want to listen to the one. You only read the productions of one tenth of one percent of writers. You only listen to the podcast of one tenth of one percent of pod broadcasters right when you watch sports on tv, you only watch the athletic contributions of one tenth of one percent of athletes. Like where's, the equality? Exactly? Where is that in your life you people, who are pushing for quality of outcomes you manage? Is that in anything you do you don't you're on leave selective, just like everyone. Wells. The reason your selective is because you there are things that are opening that need to happen or that are entertaining and interesting, and you want the asked in all of those realms, that's how it works, and there is a best. That's the other thing, that's so painful
and that that actually is painful. You don't want here's, a problem of dispossession, a real problem. One way to not do well in any hierarchy to have a low iq and so IQ is normally distributed, and if you have an iq of less than eighty five, it's hard for you to read well enough to follow instructions, that's about ten percent of the population might even be higher than that. Okay. So, given that black, how are you going to compete? Announcer is you're not because low. I q is a good predictor of poverty now the spiral because you know if you're, if you, if you're cognitively, if you're on it in the, if you're, if you're less talking to
gifted then and you have children, they're going to be in the less in environment, Garmin teasing spiral, but you still have the essential problem. That's the essential problem of the dispossessed. It's like hierarchies are complex tools to attain necessary goals, but they dispossessed people. What do we do with the people that they dispossess? The answer is, we don't know, so we have to talk about it constantly to figure out how to solve it, because it's an ongoing problem that transforms and that's the reason the political dialogue is necessary and the danger is is that the political dialogue will polarize into the radical left. No, hierarchies whatsoever or the radical right, our hierarchies, one hundred percent right at all costs, and so those are the we have the eternal problem in those are the two poles that we have to negotiate between. It's interesting
because the accusation is always been that what the left is trying to do with this equality of outcome thing is sort of an infantile is ation of the populace right and what are the best example that sports arm, when you look at sports clearly, the best people wins, right. The fastest runners win the race, the the people that have the best strategy when the game, the infant infant. That's a weird word infantile, is I never get it right, but of that is what we do with children, where you get participation trophies and no one wins. You know when my daughter was three years old. She was in soccer and they didn't keep score, but everyone knew I
the new, these kids scored and they didn't at the end of the game. They didn't announce a winner. There was no candles, you can't have a soccer game without keeping score. Yes, not a soccer game anymore, it's something else, but the score was cap. Of course just wasn't discussed. Of course it was the strangest thing. This is to treat these little kids because they couldn't handle it yeah. You know she cried when the other team scored a MIKE. That's you. It feels bad when they score, so it feels good when you score it's very difficult to say that to a three year old, so going to run hills, is she going to practice drill so that she feels that good feeling? More and there's a point where that becomes too far? There's a point where you be I'm obsessive over winner right: the people that want to crush their enemies. Then you become Conan the Barbarian yeah. This is this is the well our end of it, and this is what the left is terrified up right, yeah. The idea of the left is the dim, your the soft, the the the what kinder and gentler the idea of the right is the conqueror the people that
you know their work, hard play hard kick ass, go America, that kind of shit, and so these are the type of people that going to be crueler they're, going to do what it takes to win and the the people that you would consider that would like the quality of com, the people that are trying to slow that down this. This make sense. Yes, absolutely I I think that's how it plays itself out to like yeah. This is the motivation for all. Yes, yes, yes, and it's well and- and the radical left is, is compassion, gone mad, although it's also Envy- let's not forget about that and Izzy. Well, absolutely yeah. One reason to stand up for the dispossessed is because you're empathetic empathy is not an automatic good. This is something we make a big mistake about. We think. Well, I feeling sorry for you. Therefore, I'm good it's like no, I might be feeling too sorry for you. I might I'll be demanding enough of you so and that's the tea,
we'll devouring mother, you know from a psychoanalytic projects of all everything you do dear is okay, it's like no! It's not right now, so so one of the things that John Piaget, the device, mental psychologists, he was very interested in figuring out a way out of this, and it's very much relevant to your concept. Your talk about about athletics, okay, so so imagine this because I this is a so something that points the way to a proper morality, which was actually something that John PJ was very concerned about. He wanted to. He wanted to reconcile the distinction between religion and science. That's actually drove him, even though he was people, don't know that he was arguably the world's greatest developmental psychologist. So here's the idea. You know how you tell your kid to be a good sport. You say: don't matter with you when you lose it matters? How you play the game? Okay, so I've been on I can not in my lectures, because it's really really complicated. It's like you, tell your kid that and they look at you and they think. Well, what do you mean by that? Are they supposed to try to win to sort
game, I'm supposed to win, and you say well yeah you're supposed to win, but it doesn't matter. The winner. Is it matters how you play the game? You know that that's right You don't know how to explain it to your kid. You say what you want to be a good sport. Okay, imagine this! This is how it works in. This is crucially important. So, first of all, life is not a game. Even a game is not a game, because game is most of the time the game, the beginning of a series of games. So let's say that you're on a soccer team, well winning the game, but the game isn't the issue. The game is the whole series of game, so maybe the game is winning the championship and winning the chance can and winning at game are not the same thing and the reason for that is well. Maybe if you want to win the game, the best thing to do is to let your star player make all the moves. But if you want to win a champion,
maybe the best thing, is for your star player to do everything he or she possibly can to develop all the other team members. That's a different strategy and the reason it's different is because it it rates across time. Okay, so I'll tell you a quick story. So when my kid was playing hockey when when he was about twelve or so he was in the championship game, just at a local reno, you know and don it was really fun to watch the the teams were pretty equal, which is something that you want so that everybody can expand their skills while they're playing- and it was like five seconds to to the end of the game and the other team made a break way and came down and the guy came down nice and scored. It was beautiful golden. It was four three and that was the end of it, I, my kids team, there is the kid who is the star and he was pretty good hockey player. He came off the ice and he was very annoyed about what happened. Smash his stick on the cement and was complaining about the referee, acting as if he'd been robbed and his father came up and instead of saying get your together kid that's no way to display yourself after a loss. He said
yeah man, you were robbed that the referees didn't ref right in and you play the best and you should have. What and I thought you absolute son of a you're ruining your son and then the question is what because his son was the star and was trying to win. Why was he running his son? Well, trying to train your son not to win the game you're trying to. Train your son to win the championship, and so that's a series of games, but then life isn't the championship. Life is a whole bunch championships, it's a whole sequence of them, and so what you're actually trying to train you on to do is to be a contender in the entire series in the way you that is by helping him develop his character and if the character is actually the strategy that would enable him to win the largest number of games across the largest possible span of time, and when Do you do that? If you're a kid is like? Well, what do you want to do with your kid? You don't want to teach him to win. You want to teach him to play well with others and that's to
reciprocal. So that means to try to win, but also to pay attention to the to to developing the other people around him and not to put winning The game above everything at all times, so then he's fun to play with this is absolutely crucial. You get you can you can help your kid become, fun to play with between the ages of two in the age of four. If your kid is fun to play with, then what happens? Kids line up to play with him and adults lineup to teach him and if kids line up to play with him. Then I have friends his whole life and he'll be socialized in to be invited to many games, some of which will win, all of which will be able to participate in and, if he's fun, to play with an adult. Teach him things and then he wins at life. And so, when you say to your kid, it doesn't matter whether you win or lose matters. How you play the what you're saying is: don't forget kid that what you're trying to do, here's to do well at life, and you need to practice the strap
she's that enable you to do well at life, well, you're in any specific game, and you never want to compromise your ability to do well at life for the sake of winning a single game and there's a deep ethic in that in this. The ethic of reciprocity in games are the reason that we're so obsessed with sports is because we like to see that dramatized, you know like the person we really admire as an athlete isn't only the person who wins. We don't like the narcissistic winners, their winners and a plus, but if they're narcissistic they're, not good team players, their only out for themselves, then we think, while you're a winner in the narrow sense, but your character is suspect, you're, no role model, even though you're a winner and because we're looking for something deeper, we're looking for that. The man the of character that allows you to win across the set of possible games and that's a the thing. That's a real ethic. It's a fundamental ethic. I think what you're pointing out that's very and is we're we're searching for the person who's got it all nailed, someone who
who their hardest, but is also honest enough about the circle stances to not cry foul when it's gone, the other person's way yeah. Well, that's part of resilience It's right like you're, not going to win it. You're not going to you're not going to on every shot, doesn't mean you take the shots doesn't mean you shouldn't, try to hit the goal, but part of part of being able. Continue to take. Shots is to have the strength of character. To tolerate the fact that that in That instance, you weren't on top it's more trivial in games than it isn't fights. It's also. The response is much more negative to the from the fan. If you lose a fight and complain about it, it is it's ruthless there, as they understand that you've made a huge character error. So why do you it's more important in fights than it is in games? Why do you think it is because the consequences are so grave because you rap
nice that the high is much higher in the lows are much lower to lose a basketball game sucks, but it's nothing like losing a fight, there's no compare and not even so. What do you think it is the damages, the fighter if he arm complains about losing? Why is that a mistake? Why to the fans response to negatively to that, because they know they know that you lost. They know that you're complaining for no reason and you're not a hero. They want you to be better than them. They want you to be the person that has the courage to into a cage or rain or where, wherever you with whatever the format, is you're competing and to do something, that's extremely difficult and when you that they hold you to a higher state right to lose with grace yes, and when you fall specially. If you were a champion, that is one of the most disappointing things everyone Chan been complains and it okay, so responses horrific from the audience okay. So that's a great example. So let's imagine what does the
person who loses something important with grace do announcers fairly straightforward. He accepts the defeat and thanks okay. What is it that I have left to improve that will decrease the possibility of a similar defeat in the future? Yes right so so, so what he's doing is because the great athlete and the great purge is not only someone who's exceptionally skilled at what they do, but who's trying to expand their skills at all at all times. Yes and the attempt to expand. Their skills at all times is even more important than the fact that they're great to begin with, because the trajectory is so important, more important in particular to the audience it's extreme import. Radion is because you are the the person who's competing. You are expect them to live out this life in a perfect way or in a much more powerful within your capable, yes, and so part of that is the skill because they're put in the practice, but part of that also is the willingness to push the skill for
into new domains of development with each action? That's really what people like to watch right. They don't like to watch a perfect athletic performance. They would like to watch a perfect athletic performance that's pushed into the domain of new risk. They want to see both at the same time, in good at what you do and you're getting better okay, so you lose a match which is not any indication that you're not good at what you do. You might not be as good as the person who beat you, but if you lose them match, then wind. What you've done is soccer a higher order principle of constant improvement of your own skills. Yes, you should be analyzing the loss and saying the reason I lost insofar as it's relevant to this particular time and place is the insufficiencies. I manifested that defeated me and I need to track insufficiency so that I can rectify them in the future and if I'm blue, get on, you are the referees or the situation that I'm not taking risks, possibility and I'm not pushing myself forward, and so then you take the meaning out of it. Thank one of the things been doing on my tour. People are criticizing me to
degree for saying things to people that are obvious. Well, first of all, it's not! I didn't bloody well, no, they were obvious when I photos would rings you with my my were the rules in my book, for example, stand up straight with your shoulders back. You know treat yourself like you're someone responsible for helping. It's like, I know perfectly well that those can be read as cliches. The question is the cliche. Let's say something: that's so true that it's that it's become arm, it's become it's widely accepted by everyone. Well, but we don't know why it's true anymore, and so yes, this issue, this. The issue that we're talking about here are the issue of being a good sport. We need to figure out why that's true and the reason it's true is that you're trying to push your development farther than you've already developed at every point in time and that's the proper that's the proper moral attitude so.
When you see an athletic performance, where someone is pushing themselves beyond what they are, you see someone dramatizing the process of proper adaptation. It isn't the skill itself, it's the extension of skill. When you see someone acting like a bad sport, then sacrificing sacrificing that and so sacrificing sacrificing the higher for the lower and no one likes that in the fights it's to be see. The question is that's. The thing I can't quite figure out is why that would be even exaggerated in fight situation- and you said it's because the stakes are so high, yeah, the the consequences of victory or defeat they're, just just so much greater. There's your your health is on it's one of the rare things that you do where your health is on the line, your physical health,
so the more extreme victories in more getting defeats armour elegy, that's associated with defeat, is more extreme exactly because there's more on the line, yeah yeah that makes sense and see the way people treat the champions. It's it's of it's a very different thing. It's the the respect and adulation of the champion receives. Is it's the pinnacle sports in terms of the the love from the audience when someone wins a a great fight, it's there's nothing like it, and this is one of the reasons why these people are willing to put their health on the line, because that high the high of victory. It's not just a victory. It's a you know what what is Who was it? Who said that victory is really the victory over the lesser you, It's always the victor. Yes, the victory is over you, you got to realize a guy like Steve pay me a defends his heavyweight title this weekend in the UFC. He is he's the
heavyweight champ of the world, but he's not undefeated? He lost in his career, he's lost a couple of times and he you know is I'm sure he lost wrestling match isn't sparring sessions in the gym and all he's a product of improvement, right, he's a product of discipline and hard work and think ng and strategy and constantly improving upon the skills, and so so and because of that he's the baddest man on the planet. So my in my book rule for is on this is twelve use me. This is from twelve rules for life, rule four is compare yourself to who you were yesterday not to someone else's today. Yes, because you need to be, you need to have a hierarchy of improvement. You need, but you to be aiming set for something, and that means you're going to be lesser than people who've always already attain, and along that dimension, yes, can give rise to envy. So the question is: who should you defeat in the final analysis? And the answer is you should defeat your former self? You should be constantly trying to do that
and you're the right control for yourself too, because you're, the one who's had all your advantages and disadvantages, and so, if you want to compete early with someone, then you should be competing with you and it is the case. This is what we were talking about to with regards to the self improvement of the fighter is well if you're, improving yourself. Then what you are doing is competing with your lesser self, and then you might also ask what what is that less yourself and that lesser self would be resentful and bitter and and aggressive and engine seeking and all of those things that go along with having a negative moral character and those are things that interfere with your ability to progress as you move forward through life. So it's very necessary to understand that this is why you know I've been stressing. This idea of personal responsibilities like well personal responsibility is to compete with yourself is to be slightly better than yourself
next day yeah and it's better in some way that you can actually manage, and that's humility, it's right like well. I'm a flawed person. I've got all my problems. Could I be as good as person acts like not great question? The right question is: could you be slightly better tomorrow than you're, currently flawed self, an answer to that it? If you have enough humility to set the bar properly low, then you could be better tomorrow. Then you are today because what you also have to do you have to say: well, here's all my flaws in my in efficiencies season, the best that someone that flawed an insufficient could do to improve and actually do it is this and that's not earth going out in the street and celebrating with placards. You know it's like well. This is why I tell people to clean the room. It's not going to brag to some that you did that, but someone is insufficient as you might be able to manage it, and that means
actually are on the pathway to self improvement and you're, transcending your former self. You might say: well, what's the right way of being in the world, if there is such a thing and it's not acting according to a set of rules, it's a tempting continually It. The flawed thing that you currently are and what's so interesting about that is that the mean meaning the meaning in life is to be found in that pursuit. Be laying out out in these discussions too, because it's said well, the mental issue is that life is tragic and difficult, very tragic and difficult for everyone, and it's also tainted by malevolence, because no, how things are tragic, difficult but there's always some stupid thing that you could do or someone else could do that could make it even worse than it has to be so that's life, and you need an antidote to that, because that can in better you constant contact with that. Just the tragedy. But the tragedy combined with betrayal and malevolence. That makes it even worse. Actually, if it's self induced
okay, so you need something to set against that. So you don't get bitter and resentful. What do you against that doing? Something worthwhile by your own definition, say you need some reason to get the hell out of bed on a terrible day, because you've got something good to do. Well, what's the best thing, you can do transcend your current, wretched and miserable self there's meaning to be found in that in real response. That's that thing. That's associated with responsibility, one of the things that I've been trying to lay out clearly is that life is hard tainted by malevolence and betrayal. That can make you bitter you need me sing to offset that. Where is the meaning to be found not in right not an impulsive pleasure, but in responsibility you take responsibility for yourself, so you take care of yourself if you're good at it, you can, have some access leftover to take care of your damn family. If you get both of those, then you have so excess leftover to take care of your community. Those are heavy burdens. You pick up the burdens you find that's meaningful. The best way to pick up the bird
is to continually improve yourself and that's where the meaning is to be found, and so that meaning is in the continual self transcendence. Now letting your old self die and the new self be reborn. You did you watch when we were kings Ali Ali Frazier, God, that's an amazing amazing amazing movie right at the end of it so Ellie defeats phrase basically by letting him defeat himself right. 'cause Fraser is angry and he's got a chip on his shoulder and he doesn't conduct the fight properly. So we exhausts himself chasing Ellie and Ellie is basically just trained himself to take the damn blows right and to wear Fraser out. That's his paw. And then right at the end of the movie. He knocks Fraser down and it's pretty much the end of the fight but Fraser. It struggles to his feet. You know he's just getting up off the mat and now he's got his hand, pulled back to just nail up. 'cause he's completely laid open and he puts his glove down and turns away, That's the end of the fight and Frazier said, and this is
True. As far as I know that that fight tamed him like Fraser, had a big chip on his shoulder. He was a kind of a dreadful guy up till that fight it afterwards. He was after and he was he was civilized, Ellie Civilized and so, but that the deli made was that great gesture because he could have flattened and right and he every reason to man he got he got taken apart. A lead took punches like mad in that fight, and then in the final analysis when he had Fraser down and he was struggling to his feet. He just let him go man nobility of character right there, something impressive to behold. So. When why are you defining people like when you're saying this? Why you saying you're miserable wretched life because there's a lot but don't have miserable, wretched lives. It also just want to improve like. Why does it have to be the worst case scenario in order to because it has to work warrant it has, it has to work. The theory has to work in the worst case scenario
So I usually using the worst case scenario as and yeah yeah yeah yeah, because you think that that perhaps may alienate someone who doesn't have the worst case scenario. No, I don't I don't know, I don't think so because I well, if you know it depends on how much time you have dealt lined ideas button. You know what what I, because, even if things are going really well for you now, there's gonna be a time in the future. Where things are rough, you know you're going to be ill. Family member is going to be ill. A dream is going to fall apart, you're going to be going to be uncertain about your employment status like the flood is coming right, the apocalypse is coming, it's always the case in life and you have to be prepared for it, and the question is how to prepare for and the answer to that is to find a way of being that works even under the diarist of circumstances. That's the issue, and so you outline I mean I am pessimistic about this in my approach in some sense, because when I'm talking to my audiences in the same thing happens and happened in my book maps of meaning and in twelve rules for life, I'm laying out the worst case scenario: that's uh,
you like hell, it's things are going really badly for you and that there's just chance associated with that. Some and you and the people around you were doing stupid things to make it worse. It's okay. What whatever under those circumstances, you've got the possibility need to slowly raise yourself out of the mire you've, got the possibility to do just what the fighter does when he's defeated, which is to say well, regardless of the circumstances that might have led to my defeat like, even if there there are errors on the part of the referee. This is no, trying to whine about it. This is a time to take stock of what I do wrong so that I could improve it into the future and that's the right attitude. You know in the old testament one of the things that's really interesting about the old testament stories is in the old testament. The Jews keep getting walloped by God. It's like they struggle up and make an empire, and then they just get walloped and then it's all cross in out of it for generations, and then they struggle back up and make an empire, and then they get demolished again.
And it happens over and over and over and the attitude of the old testament Hebrews is. We must have made a mistake: it's never to shake their fist at the sky and curse fate. It's never that the presupposition is, if things aren't working out, it's my fault and now it's a hell of a presupposition, and you might say well, of course you know it's that underestimates the degree to which systemic oppression, etc, etc, and and the vagaries of fate, it's like it doesn't over underestimate it's not the point. The point is your best strategic position is how my insufficient, and how can I rectify that? That's what you've got and the thing is, you are insufficient and you could rectify it. Both of those are within your grasp If you aim low enough one of the things you see that that's another thing you keep saying, aim low enough, have a low enough bar why do you? Do you mean that? Well, let's say you've got
kid, and you want the kid to improve. You, don't set them a bar that so by that it's impossible for them to attain it. You take a look at the kid and you think ok. This kids got this range of skill, here's a child we can throw at him or her that exceeds their current level of skill, but gives them a summaries people probability of success, and so well, I'm saying it tongue in cheek to some degree you know it's like, but if you're, but I'm doing it as an aid to humility, it's like well, I don't know how to start improving my life. Someone might say that, and I would say: ok well, you're, not aiming low enough. There's something you do that you are regarding is trivial that that you could do that. You would do that would result in an actual improvement. But it's not a big enough improvement for you, so you won't lower yourself enough to take the opportunity incremental steps. Yes, and so this is also what is achieved through exercise, it's one of the most important.
What do you do when you go on lift weights yeah? I don't go on like if you haven't been for us before you. Don't put four hundred pounds on the damn bar and dropped it and drop the bar through your skull. You know you think, look when I started working out when I was a kid I was. I was about one hundred and thirty pounds and I was six foot. One is a thin kitten. I smoked a lot. I wasn't in good shape. I wasn't in good physical shape and I went to the gym, and it was bloody, embarrassing. You know, and people would come over and help me with the God, Damn weights, here's how you're supposed to use this unit was humiliating, and maybe I was pressing sixty five pounds or something at that point but what am I going to do? I'm going to lift up one hundred and fifty pounds and injure myself right off the bat? No, I to go in there and strip down and put my skinny God, damn self in front of the mirror and think sonofabitch there all these monsters in the gym would be lifting weight for ten years and I'm struggling to get fifty off the bar. Tough luck for me, but I could lift fifty pounds and it wasn't very long until could lift seventy five and well. You know how it goes, but a nine eh injured myself when I was weightlifting and the
for that was. I never pushed myself where I knew I could go, and I pushed myself a lot. You know I gained thirty five pounds of muscle in three years in university, I kind of had to quit. 'cause I was eating, so God damn much. I couldn't stand. It seems like six meals a day it was just taken up to time, but there's a humility in determining what it is that the wretched creature that you are can actually manage aim low and I don't I mean, don't aim and I don't mean don't aim up, but you have to accept the fact that. You can set yourself a goal that you can attain and there's not going to be much glory in it to begin with, because if you're not in very good shape the goal that you could could attain tomorrow. Isn't very glorious, but it it's a hell of a better than nothing and it beats the hell out of bitterness and it's way better than blaming someone else. It's way less dangerous and you could do it and what's cool about it, there's a statement in the new testament. It's called the Matthew principle.
Economists use it to describe how the economy in the world works. To those who have everything more will be given from those who have nothing. Everything will be taken. It's like what's very pessimistic in some sense, because it means that, as you start to fail, you fail more and more rapidly, but it also means that, as you start to succeed, you succeed need more and more rapidly, and so you taken incremental step and well now you can lift fifty five pounds instead of fifty two point, five pounds, you think well, what the hell is that it's it's one step on a very long journey, and so it's and it starts to compound on you So a small step today means puts you in a position to take a slightly bigger step the next day, and then that puts you in a position to take a slightly bigger step the next day, and you do that for two or three years menu starting to stride. You know I have so many people coming up to me now. This is one of the things that so insanely fun about this tour, which is so positive. It's it brings me to tears, is regularly it's mind, boggling, because people come up to me and
this is happening wherever I go now and they say they're very polite when they come and talk to me, you know and they're always apologetic for interrupting, and so it's never it's never. Narcissistic and it's never annoying. I'm really happy to see people and they come up to me and they said well. I know you've heard this lots of times before, but I've really I've really been putting my life together since I've been check your lectures, then they tell me a story about where they were in some dark place too much alcohol too much drugs not getting along with her father, not getting along with her mother, not having a vision for the life being nihilistic playing too many video games. You know like being suicidal. That happens a lot having post dramatic stress disorder, sometimes as a consequence of combat whatever little slice of hell, they were occupying. They say: look, I've been been listening to your lectures and I've been developing vision for my life and I've been trying to take responsibility and I've been
trying to tell the truth, and things are way better, and so that's absolutely perfect. It's the right way forward as far as I'm concerned and those are people who they took stock of themselves. They said I'm in a dark place and I'm a dark person and here's some things that this dark person in this dark place. Do little things that they could actually do I'll clean up. My damn room will make my bed I've. Had I don't know how many people come and told me, it's so strange He said well, I started making my bed and that made all the difference it's like well, have you decided a mop man in the first column. Instantiation of that was that you made your bed and you think well, that's now, then he roic it's like no but Eamonn up his heroic, that's something and then lowering yourself to the point where you're not above the mess in your room. You know you not super ordinate to that. You lower yourself, so that you straighten up your grateful for what you have right in front of you and you take care of it. You put it in order. It's like all of a sudden things start to get better, and so
wonderful to be doing this tour, because I see so that so what this tour has been about. For me, it's not political. I never talk to people after the talks. For example, I talked about one hundred and fifty people tonight we never talk about anything political, it's always this. I wasn't doing very well, I'm put in my life together, I'm getting along better with my father, I'm getting along better with my wife, I'm getting don't matter with my kids. I've got some meaning in my life thanks a lot. It's way better! It's like! Yes, that's that's the right thing, it's very bad special for people and they need to hear that and there's there's something. It comes along with that. That's critical! What that is is an honest assessment of yourself and honesty that
type of honesty, honesty with yourself, it's very difficult for some people, and then I have the tools for, and they haven't been explained how to do. This is why you should and why you should yeah one of the things that happens when you go through school, you're told what to do. You're never told how to think he never you're also told that you're, okay, the way you are that's self esteem, yeah, you're! Ok, the way you are it's like no you're not- and this is another well. You are and you're not right ok as a human look. If you want to be a black belt in Jiu Jitsu, and you just started your first class you're. Ok as you are you're a human, but in the goal you're, not ok, and the greater goal, the incremental improvement is important. You have to you, have to honestly assess your position and move forward. Well, that's it you're a position and its trajectory right. And when you say to someone you're okay, because of your position, that's not good enough because you have to say well wait a second! You needed trajectory and maybe you're okay, if you're, okay, your position and your trajectory, but you know the self esteem movements in all of that. Well,
except yourself the way you are it's like no 'cause, you need a trajectory and one of the things that that I, I think, one of the reasons that audiences are responding to what I've been saying in my lectures and what I've been writing about is that I don't tell people that they're. Ok, the way they No, I say no, no! You could be way more than you are and they're relieved about that. You see because, if you're in a dark and tear little place and someone says you're, okay, the way you are, then you don't know what to do about that. Is that no I'm not I'm having it. Sing a terrible time and I'm hopeless you're. Ok, the way you are well then Watt, that's it that's it! That's! Where I And what do you want to tell a young person you're seventeen work, the way you are it's like? No you're, not you got sixty year to be better and you could be way better. You could be in comparably better across multiple dimensions and in pursuing that better. That's where you'll find the meaning in your life, and that will give you the antidote to the suffering
The way I always describe it to people's. There are disciplines that you can pursue and those disciplines are a vehicle for developing human potential, and if you get better at these things, you can get better at anything and if you figure out what it takes to become better, at whatever sport it is or whatever art it is, or whatever you're pursuing the same principles. You can apply to the way you treat people you can apply to the way. Educate yourself, you can apply to wait. You keep your body in shape. All those things are connected and that's why you have to import impose order. People have asked me in my book why I wrote it as an antidote to chaos. You know because well there isn't anything technically wrong with chaos. Chaos is a place of great potential. Well, the question is: what's the proper, proper balance between chaos and order, chaos potential in order. While the answer is look when you're a kid you're all potential, it's chaotic potential, it can manifest itself in any number of ways and
maybe you don't want to give that up so you're like Peter PAN. You want to be a kid forever, because you don't want to give up the potential and you look. Out in the world- and all you see are captain hooks, you know who- just hand her chased by death, because that's the clock in the crocodile it's already got a taste of am terrified by death and he's a tyrant. Well, I don't want to grow up to be that, so I won't be disciplined at all. Well, It's no good because the way the potential transforms itself into actualities through discipline and so then as you said, this is the trick, though. You have to pick a path of discipline, whether what path of discipline you have to pick is a different issue. So there could be a rule. The rule could be. The rule might not be followed. This rule, the rule might be. You have to follow some rules, so it's a matter rule and the meter rule is you have to discipline yourself an issue? Well, how that's not really the relevant question. You can pick a disciplinary path. That's why I often tell my clients, especially young people, they say. Well, I don't know what to do. It's like that so
Ok, nobody does go. Do something do the best thing that you can think of put the just plan. You have into practice: it's not going to be perfect and it will change along the way, but it will change partly because become disciplined pursuing the path and, as you become disciplined, you become wiser and, as you become wiser, you become able to formulate better and better plans. So you can start vaguely and confused and our plan, that's not so great and you start implemented and then and you you accrue incremental. System as you implement your flawed plan and that enables you to fix the plan, and so that's part of that process of incremental self improvement as well. So one of the more difficult aspects of that is personal honesty, like being honest with yourself being honest with you stuff about what you're doing self assessment is very difficult for people they don't they're, not they're, never taught. It is not something. That's encouraged! No one! It's disease Imagine you only got a hundred. You only have one hundred thousand dollars to go. Buy a house, and so you go by
go. Look at this house and it's like Jesus, this house, man, it's like it needs a lot of work. It's like! Well, that's all you've got. Why are you going to party in the house is ok the way it is we're going to look for where it's rotten and where the plumbing doesn't work and where the stove doesn't work. You have to go and look and see where everything needs to be fixed and that's like that is harsh mad, but and then, in order to do that, properly? Someone has to have taught you look, you want your problems. Well, you are your most fundamentally that which, if it confronts its problems, can solve them. Not the hero myth in in in in a not show by the way the hero is the person who, confronts horrible, chaotic potential and tames it and make something of it right. That's that's the fundamental human story, but the problem is: is that you have to face what you don't want to face in order to fix it and so
you look at all the things about yourself that need to be burned off that need to be dispensed with and that man, especially at the beginning, especially if you're screwed up that maybe like ninety five percent of you just- has to go up in flames and it's painful, even some of that stuff that have to burn off doesn't want to die and it will scream in agony while you're burning it off. It's not pleasant, but if you know that the thing that can transcend your problems most fundamentally, if you know you're the thing that, if it faces the problems, can Tran send them. Then you have the faith that would enable you to take stock of who you are, and you have to do that in small steps, because most people don't have experience in transcending their problems. So they really don't know what it even feels like. It seems like an alien concept. It seems like something other people can do, but if you Do it incrementally you could show yourself that you can do it. I mean it's one of the is why they have belt systems in martial arts, you you start off slow. Oh my god, I got a stripe on my white Bell.
Oh, my god, I'm a blue belt. You feel improvement young for some people, it's the first real improvement marked absolute improvement in their life right. Well, then, that's an interesting thing too, because right there you've got a bit of a measurement system you have the system set up online, called the future authoring program and we've improved last time we implemented it. 'cause we've tested it three times we implemented at Mohawk College in Canada, and we had people write about their ideal future and also to put in measurement strategies. It's like. Ok, here's, your ideal, future. Here's how you're going to break it into goals, here's how you're going to mark progress towards those goals, because you gotta be playing a fair game with yourself right, because when you may, progress! You want to reward yourself, so you have to identify what the progress is and you have to reward it. The consequences. We had people right a future plan for only an hour when they came for their school or mentation in the summer. Before going to it's, it's community college and
drop the dropout rate among young men by fifty percent and is yeah no kidding fifty percent yeah, and what that meant was to me what that meant was just think about that. What that means is that these kids been educated for twelve years and no one had ever sat them down and said, ok, what the hell are you doing, and why and how are you going to get like? Where do you want to go? Why do you want to get there? How are you going to get there? How are you going to mark you, progress, I've never walked him through that exercise. You walk people through that exercise, just to get them to do. That increases the probability that they'll stay on track by fifty percent. That's incredible! Well, it's one of things. I've always complained about is that they do no one. Two people teach you fax, they don't teach you how to a which life they don't teach you how to think they don't teach you how to confirm. Why do insecurities and different traps, though,
your mind will set up for you yeah? Well, that's what partly, what's so fun about doing this lecture tour, because that's exactly what I'm talking to people about. One of the things I talk about is: why do you think why bother thinking it's like you think? Well, that's obvious! It's like no, actually not so obvious? It's like the issue that I discuss with my students at university. A lot as well. Why write a good essay? My brother went to get the grade. It's like! No! That's not why! And if you think that, well, that's better than not thinking that there's any reason for writing. That's a bad reason why right! Well! Writing is a form of thinking, it's actually the most demanding form of thinking, I would say, there's other forms that are demanding. So how do you write a good essay pick, a topic that matters to you, because if you're not writing about something that matters to you. It's like you're, not living, something! That's meaningful! It's wrong! Cute you're, not gonna, write a good essay because you're wrong right to begin with it has to matter to you. Why does it matter? What what does it mean that it matters? Well, it means that it's going
effect how you make decisions in your life, something that Matt these effects, how you make decisions in your life? Well, why does it matter how you make decisions in your life ' 'cause? If you make so stupid decisions, you're going to increase The sum total of suffering a lot you're going to do stupid things to yourself, you're, going to do stupid things to other people and you're not going to be as good a person as you could be. So not only will you do stupid and terrible things, but you won't have manifested the good in the world that you could have manifested. So that's the lack. So you write an essay so that you can think- and you think so, that you can live properly and so you're right, damn carefully. You make sure that every single bloody word is a word. That you want to use and you make sure the phrases that you put the words in or a solid as they can be, and you make sure this sentence is are well constructed and that their organized into proper paragraphs and paragraphs are sequenced and the content of the thing matters and put your soul into it. And you know when you've done that, because it's gripping when you write it meaningfully engaging- and this is another thing that I've been sharing with my audio-
this meaning- is actually an instinct like you think we already decided that incremental self improvement is the proper route, okay. So how do you know when your incrementally self improving properly in the answer? Is it's Klay engaging it's deeply meaningful and the re and for that, is your actually adapted neurologically to identify the pathway of maximal incremental improvement. That was a discovery conceptually by guy named Vygotsky. The russian neuropsychologist who coined the term zone of proximal development? You here now, and then people say there in the zone: that's the zone of proximal development and that's that place that you occupy when you're improving at the rate, that's optimal to you and your sense of intrinsic meaning signifies that that's how your bloody brain is wired and so then, we might say well, what's the antidote to the tragedy in malevolence of life? And the answer is to put your
self in the zone of proximal development, because that's where the maximal meaning is, and that actually does prepare you for life, and so the question, why think is well you Think before you act, and you act to put yourself in the zone of proximal development, and you do that too, as an antidote to the catastrophe e of life. Well, that's the that's. The answer. And the thing that's cool about that, then this is, I think, part of what I've been telling people sort of novel is well. Where is the meaning? the meaning is in responsibility. You know, because people avoid respond, that's Peter PAN again avoid responsibilities, just a burden. It's like! No, it's not! It is a burden, but voluntarily hoisted it's the place of MAC It's more meaning and the more responsibility you take, the more meaning you have and that's the antidote to the catastrophe e of life? And everybody also knows this, because just look so simple: when are you sick of yourself? Well, that's when you're being useless and irresponsible for yourself and
for your family and for your community you're, not even taking care of yourself. Well, you can't sleep with in conscience and less you're psychopathic if you're not taking care of yourself and the when can use. When are you not awake in the morning at three in the morning tearing yourself, apart with a guilty conscience? Its way, you've done something useful, at least for you and you can say, oh well check one on my side, you say: ok, so fine, you dropped a little responsibility for yourself and you can sleep with a clean conscience. What happens if you dropped it full responsibility for yourself and then for your family? Lots of the people who are coming to talk to me say now. I've been really trying to put my family together, like I've made that goal I'm trying to heal my family and bring it together and it's working. So here's a story love this story, man it just killed me. I was in LA at the Orpheum and you know it's rough downtown in LA in places around the Orpheum too and Tammy no, my wife, because she's traveling with me and is a big help by the way,
we're wondering around downtown la that morning after the talk and were walking down the street and we were on streets, we probably shouldn't have been on, but any any because what the hell do we know being stupid Canadians, and so we walk down the street and this car pulled up beside this kid hopped out and it's good looking latino kid, twenty twenty one, something like that he jumped over and he said, he's all excited he said. Are you doctor Peterson? I said yeah yeah and he said I'm really really happy to me You I've been watching your lectures for like a year and a half and I've been trying to put my life today, and it's really working I'm really doing way better. I really wanted to thank you, and so it's lovely when you're walking down and kind of rough area and somebody pull up beside you and they jump out of the car to tell you how much better their life is. That's a pretty good morning, and so, but then that is no that happened. He ran back to his car. He said, wait a minute wait, a minute went back to his car and he got his dad and they came over together and His dad was just smiling away like a real smile. You know, and so is the kid and they had their arms around each other and they said, look like we really
I'm working on our relationship for the last year and a half and it's gone just great. We want to thank you and the father said something like I'm really happy that you got my son back to me. It's like! Yes, that's what this bloody tour is being like, it's great and everybody that's coming to these talks. That's what they're trying to do. You know I got 3000p, Jardiance, and what they're trying to do is figure out. How can I take maximum? disability for my own life. How can I ambut with the meaning that helps me with down tragedy and suffering? How can I be a better person, and wouldn't it be great if that was of optimal Ben? fit to my family and the community. You getting very emotional about that. Well, It's something Joe Jesus I've seen like one hundred and fifty thousand people in the last two months. You know when this is what it's you have a chance to talk to Ruben about It is to this is what it's been like. It's so positive. I can't believe it and it's just one person after another saying like look, I was I was having a rough time. I'm real be happy that I've been encountering what you've been talking about. I've really been trying to put things together and it's really helping yeah Ruben
pretty blown away by it. We had a long conversation about it about. He just feels like there's. Some crazy move going on at something's changing in the world. Because of this of this new avenue of learning and development is opening up for these people. Well it well enough, but I've been thinking about that too, because you know you like, I said at the beginning it if you're surfing you don't want to take responsibility. For the wave- and so you know, I mean first of all a lot of what I've been telling people or things that I've gleaned from the clinical litter in this psychological literature. It's not like I'm coming up with this of my own accord, right, I'm transmitting information that I've learned from very, very wise people, and so there's that, but also we don't want to underestimate the utility of the technology, because we have this long form technology now and it's enabling us to have this discussion, and so we can get deeper into things publicly and socially than we were able to before- and I see this- I see this as a manifestation of that
and and and I'm hoping to that, maybe maybe what's happening- is we're going to have a lot of adaptation to do in the next twenty years, as things change so rapidly, we can hardly comprehend it and hopefully the way we're going to be able to manage. That is to think and hope, fully these long form discussions will provide the political or provide the public forum for us to actually think to actually engage at a deep enough level. So we built a master the transformations and I think, that's possible and part of the reason that I wrote this book and well part of the reason that I've been doing what I've been doing for the last thirty years, because I really have believed, since one thousand nine hundred and eighty five, some like that that the way out of political polarization, the way out of the Access is of the right and the left is through the individual. I think the w got that right. The fundamental unit of measurement is the individual and the fundamental task of the individual is to engage in this process of huh
self improvement. I believe that's the case and that's where the meaning is and that's where the responsibility is, and I think and I'm hoping that if enough people in the West and then, and then the rest of the world for that matter, but we're very polarized in the West right now. If enough people take responsive, lily, forgetting their individual lifes. Together then, will get wise, and so we won't let this process of political polarization put us back to the same place. Is that went so many times in the 20th century I don't see another antidote for it. It's not political. It's ethical! This is the message that I always hear from you, and this is you as a friend. This is the you that I understand, but this is not how your commonly represented you are the most misrepresented person I've ever met in my life. I have never seen someone who has so much positive that gets ignored and where people are looking for any little thing that they could possibly miss,
represent and switch up and change, and I'm kind it's done by it. I mean I'm really not sure what it is about, but you that's so polarizing with all these different people that are. Deciding you are some sexist tran phobic person. That's this right wing, alt right figure. You know even to the point where it's it's, it's kind humorous to me. Sometimes I I read some of these. These takes on you. What do you think? That's from like what what is have you? This is a new thing for you. You mean only in the last few years that you've gone from this relatively unknown professor in a university in Toron toe to being this worldwide figure where people
you. Obviously your message is resonating with people in a very huge way, but the p. So there are opposing you. There are vehemently opposed. What do you think that is collected? Don't like me, collectivists? What do you mean by that people who think the probably proper unit of analysis in the world is a political and b group oriented the identity? Politics? You don't like me at all and they have every reason not to 'cause. I'm, not I'm, not a fan of identity. Politics things address are your misrepresented, but fundamentally there's other reasons I mean I came out against this bill in Canada, Bill C. Sixteen that that hypothetically purported to do nothing else, but to increase the the domain of rights that were applied to transsexual people, but there was a there was plenty more to that bill. Man. Let me tell you, and I read the policy, the policies that went wrong with it and it was a compelled speech bill, and so I opposed it on the grounds that the politicians are not supposed to leap out of
their proper domain and start to compel speech. It's not the same as forbidding hate speech. I think hate speech should be left the hell alone personally for all sorts of reasons, but compel. The contents of speech is a whole new thing. It's never been before in the history of british common law, English, common law and it's actually, the Supreme Court in the 1940s in the US said that that was not to be allowed. And so it's a major transgression, they said well we're doing it for all the right reasons. It's like! No, no, you don't get it. You don't get to compel speech, I don't care, What your reasons are and why she, I trust your damn reasons, anyways, what makes you so saintlike like so the You can violate this fundamental principle and I should assume that you're doing it for nothing but compassion and that you're wise enough to manage that properly. It's like sorry, no. I read your policies, I see what you're up to I don't like the collectivists. I think they're unbelievably dangerous, and I have reason to believe that. So I think that when
push comes to shove. If your unit of analysis is the group and your worldview is one group and its power claims against all other groups that that that's not acceptable. It's it's tribalism up worst form- and it lead to nothing but mayhem in disaster and part of the reason you're doing it- isn't because your compassion it's b, is your envious and you don't want to take responsibility for your own life and I'm calling you on it, and so you don't make me so I must be an alt right figure. I must be a Nazi saying your house needs a lot of work. Man. There's a lot of rotten in the floorboards. The plumbing is Lee, The water is coming in your, not you not sage in Saint, you think you are there's so much work. You have to do on yourself that it would damn near kill you to take a look at it. Do everything we want. So I think that that's why people are. Bonnie to in a negative way and that they only have their own personal problems they're, avoiding the it can't possibly be that you represent to them, something that is either cruel.
Or something that is, is not compassionate about people in their differences and their flaws and their their humanity. Well, I think it. It's certainly the case that there, the Vision, that's been generated of me is gassed. That's what I'm getting at yeah the two, but why is layers say, there's well part of it's, the the the political polarization you know at moment, reviewing almost everything that happens in the world through a political lands, at least the journalists, at least. First of all. First of all I got it. I got to make this clear. First of all, I've been treated well by lots of journalists really well like the best journalists in Canada have been on my side since about two weeks after the bill C, sixteen thing erupted and those would be the journalist that have an independent voice and that that that have created
the room following and and they're in a number of different media place. It's mostly in print okay and there's a there's, a coalition of of newspapers in Canada, the Post media group, two hundred newspapers, they came out fully in support of my stance on on Bill C. Sixteen, and so there's lots of times that I've been treated properly by journalists. There's a small number of journalists very noisy and a small number of activists very well organized who've, been on my case right from the beginning, and those are people who are generally driven by a very radical leftist progressive agenda, and I am not their site I'm on their side as individuals, I'm on their side as people who could struggle forward, but the collectivist vision. It's deadly, but you seem to be the poster boy for this very simple. Characterization, like almost a caricature of what the the the alt right. Figurehead is
It is to me as a person who knows you, it's very strange to watch this take place then, when they can find anything that you say that could without further explanation, or definition be missed construed as appealing to this definition of you like, for instance, when all this, when this. What would I guess they call themselves incels involuntary celibates when all the stuff went down this car drove his car into a group of people, it's horrible tragedy One of the things that you talked about within cells is that this was a part of the role. What was it that the New York Times, yeah yeah, you said one of cures for this is enforced. Monogamy people dis cited, and you know I've never heard that term before quite honestly, and I was like what the fuck does that mean it's a cycle
full term and what it means is enforced by culture, that it is a good value in polygamous societies, tend to become ultraviolent. Yes, it's been known in the anthropological literature for a hundred years, and, and certainly leftist answer, well that just were among those who discovered it like. She knew the journalist knew perfectly well what I meant by enforcement Agamy. She started stupid, it's well. Do you use it as if everybody would understand it, because you're an intellectual and because you're a professor and was also it was also two minutes out of a two day conversations you know it's like. So if that's all we need is a glance still well it so far. That was funny in some sense, because my sense is. If you want to pillory someone, you should a tribute to the man. Use that someone somewhere has had and the implication of that part of the New York Times Michael was that I wanted to know, take nubile by young women at the point of a gun understated for
deliver them yet useless bad. It's like no one has ever believed that. So it sounds like it's a really the optics of that. That statement a very bad, but the the question is Why didn't? Why was there follow up questions and if there was follow questions to get you to define what you mean by and force, but not other work, they just didn't make it into the pieces. That's a real problem! Yeah! It's a real problem! That's a real problem, because that's that that is it's so ridiculous, because in your definition of who you are one of the things I've said continually, and this is on record in multiple places. It's like okay, so you're young man and all the women are rejecting you. Who's got the problem. It's not all the women, that's a bad road to go. All the women are rejecting you. It's you. Both agree on this, but why is enforced monogamy the solution for people that are involuntary celibates? Well,
It's the solution to the it's. The solution to the relationship between men and women fundamentally is monogamist social norm. Men are unattractive if these alone attrition to them, but these men are unattractive to women. I don't mean just physically unattractive me: women aren't seeking them as mates. The need to become men. Yes, they certainly do is out of this solution. That's the solution. Absolute and we both agree on this. Yes, what they need to do that in a society where monogamy is the social norm, but isn't it social norm anyway? Well, that was partly my point, although to greed agree that we deviate from that, we tilt words more violent society. I was making a very minor point. I don't think they're related. Quite honestly, I don't think that involuntary celibates. I don't think that having in monogamy is a part of our cultural norm is going to help those people are really how's it going to help them well, because what happens is polygamous society develops, which is the alternative then a small minority of men get all the women. That's what happened.
Okay, I I see that that's. The only point in on was make it's the theoretical world, where Lima societies exist, and mass- and then you do have this problem with his a small group of men, fucking all the women, but that's not what we're and also making the women unhappy right, because the women have any access to a genuine intimate one to one relationship over any long period of time which doesn't work well in Mono. It's the the whole year and what's best women want to that right. Sure if you have children right, but I know I still don't think that that is why these men are involuntary celebrates, and I don't think it's the solution to that. I think the solution is that they need to become attractive to you that is the solution, is no doubt I don't, I don't think the two are related well, the only making a minor point. The minor point was that one of the ways societies around the world have figured out that you keep young l. Aggression under control is by enforcing monogamous standards because it gives everyone a chance, in some sense
the the only when I was a meaning it clears more more when will be available for one on one relationships rather than one guy. Who is some? You know what, for whatever reason, yeah? Well, you see, Ares future insists are well. You see this happening in in universities where women outnumber men, so the the men hypothetically have more sexual opportunity, but that is what has that's what happens is that a small minority of men have all the sexual opportunity a fairly large minority of men? Don't the women are unhappy? How because they can't find a committed relationship, it's bad for most of the men, and the men who have all the sexual opportunity get cynical, but isn't this in some ways against your whole idea of equality of outcome, because you're you're the quality of sexual outcome. Now, if these men, if you have a good point that Michael a Lebron James, that's the dominant basketball player that just kicks everyone's asked. This is the this
this is a guy who succeeded at the highest level right. Well, there's going to be people like that sexually, it's going to be people that are better at finding mates and that this is what they enjoy they enjoy having many mates, yeah, your being yes, but but if this is what they enjoy, it's a man who doesn't want a family and enjoys dating multiple women. Why is that bad? Well, I think the fundamental reason it's bad is because it's bad in the long run for children. It's bad for children, if you choose to have children yeah, but I mean that's it, that's it that's a fundamental issue as far as I'm concerned right- and I think it's the answer- look to give up the journalist credit. That is the point she was making. You know apart from pillar ring me and and and and caricaturing my perspective. That was the point. She was making Well, first of all, I'm not in favor of unbridled hierarchies the card. He said that you know the proclivity of a hierarchy. Is that they're, all the spoils go to the person at the top right now can destabilize the whole
structure. Yes, we have to have a dialogue about how to rectify that, but how possibly rectified that if one man is but click save one six foot, five beautiful man, who's got a perfect body, yep brilliant and he just wants a bunch of women and all the rest of the people or five put one in there, fatten their lazy and like this guy's is going to. If this is the competition he's going to win. There's no way around this in even decide to have in force Monogamy Blair comes a popular thing. The women are going to be more drawn to him. If he chooses to date them they might decide. I would rather, have him, sometimes they never. That is. That is actually what does happen. But what is wrong with that? Well, what's wrong with it is that it destabilizes society and it's bad for children right. You said that yeah, but that's what if I don't want to have children, but there's a lot of people, don't want to have children there's a lot of p
they choose to go their entire life without having children. This man in the third I'm one, some of my friends of vasectomies. They don't want children so why? Why would that help in any way these involuntary celebrates? Well, I think you tilt the society so that it serves the interests of wild. That's a good question: do you believe, see my point where you almost now. I see your point, there's about it. You're almost having you're almost forcing an inequity in the quality of out, because I know that when I was her point to to the degree that she had a point that was her point now and but I, but it's not doesn't run contrary to my opinions that the issue of outcome has to be addressed already said. There's needs to be a reason for the left and the right and then the problem with Iraqis they can get too steep, and this stabilize everything right does happen. That particular what happens in the sexual domain. There's plenty of anthropological evidence for that, but you still might say well who care
first, because the men who are who are winning should be allowed to win in the women should be allowed to choose it's right. Yes, except that there's the problem of children and society steps in on behalf of the children and you can say well lots of people don't have children yes and that's true now than it used to be, although many of those people end up having children anyways, you know the guys who sit around all the time so that doesn't circumvent the problem, but the issue for me: isn't the man or the women it's the children. You were trying set up societies where the probability that children will raised in something approximating an optimal environment is optimized and it's going to mean sacrifice of opportunity and choice on the part of adults in this necessary I agree with you, but I think the what we're talking about mirrors, what we're talking about in sports it mirrors were. About in business. It's everything else, there's just going to be people that are better at all different aspects of what is the people that are talented in terms of getting women to like that. Yes, that's!
well. That's why I also look you see this women are high purpose, which means they made up in a court. They meet across an op dominance are and so, if you're, a male who successful in a given hierarchy, the probability that you're going to have additional mating opportunities exceptionally high, it's an unbelievably good predictor of that that high per He is a very uncomfortable discussion. Yes, I'm certainly it's very matter well, there's plenty of uncomfortable discussions to that big one though it is the idea that it defines women's sexual choices by the fact that they want bigger, bigger, better well, someone who's more more successful someone is higher on the social ladder than what their custom or what they have now. What women do is that, like made choices very difficult problem, so how do you solve it? Well, here's how women sold through the mentoring, let them compete at what, they're competing at assume the man who wins is the best man marry him, yes, which brilliant solution. It's a more look oriented solution. It's
the solution that appears to have driven our evolutionary departure from chimpanzees. It's a biologic. Solution. It solution would cost. What is the cost? The cost is, the cost, is polygamy. And so we ran that in with enforced monogamy, and we do that in order to provide stable, stable circumstances for children is polyamorous is a polyamorous society, just as a note in as this utopia in marxist idea. I think so because it looks like this is another point I was making that didn't get covered in the in the in the call the road about it somewhat extensively on. My blog is that since IDC tilt towards monogamy across the world is human universal. Now that doesn't mean that people don't have I or polyamorous tendencies, because they certainly do, and it certainly also the that one of the women ways that women gerrymander this system is that, like the number of women, Children who are in a
say, say: you're married and you have children with your husband, but you also have an affair. So you have a child by another man? That's common common than anyone suspected so part of the way that women solve the problem that you're just describing and I'm not saying anything for this or against. This is a purely factual bylaw Ical claim. Is they pick a monogamous marriage and they cheat with high status guys now you know obviously in the confines of the marriage, that's a terrible thing, but that's is very uncomfortable subject for women in particular, uncomfortable subject for everyone right, but it's a terribly uncomfortable subject. They don't like the idea that this is a common thing, that women choose a safe man that is well to be monogamous with them and perhaps maybe they're above him, in a social class or in sexually and then they'll cheat with some who is well it it's common, but it's not the norm.
It's still the norm not to do that. The norm is fidelity right, but there's plenty of section this is enforced. Monogamy culture was the norm this other one before a devilish first monogamy is this: it's like okay, so my son's getting married in in September and so so let's say he comes to me in a year and he says: hey Dad, guess what I've had three affairs in the last year and they've all been successful. I haven't got caught. Aren't I a good guy What am I going to say to that? No, what the hell are you doing? That's you're supposed to be doing. That's in forced monogamy in force- monogamy, meaning the people around you try to guide them in a way that you think is going to leave this. It's harmonious family. Yes, it's built deep into the cultural norms and if that starts to destabilize, then there's trouble and that doesn't mean that it's not prone to all the. Problems that you laid out, look there isn't a bigger problem than successful reproduction. It is the big problem and
All of the solutions that we've generated for it are full of flaws. Like here's an example, the gender pay gap. Ok, there's no gender pay gap. There's a mother gap, there's other reasons too, but women really take a hit when they become mothers. Ok, that's unfair, fair enough man, What the hell are you going to do about? It's not just that the right- and this is what also I'm sorry up here, but this is one of the things that I wanted to bring up that are kind of lost track of it, the Misr representation of view mirrors the misrepresentation of the gender pay gap, because it's a convenient representation that, upon further inspection and understanding you realize there is no gender pay gap. The gender pay gap. When people do gusset that don't understand it and I've had these conversations with real intelligent people that just listen to what's in the news or read so
very quick article talking about this problem that we have and they assume that a man and a woman are working the same job, but the woman is unfairly paid, zero dollars and seventy nine cents to the man's dollar. That's not the case close to the case of cases. Women choose different profession. That don't pay as much. They work less hours and they oftentimes get married and have children, and because they have children, they take paternity leave and they make less money that they make less money. Because That was about ten reasons or twenty reasons for the for the gender pay gap in one of them being motherhood, but there's a whole slew of them, but in order more dangerous jobs, men work outside men are more likely to move, but it's never discussed it Well, that's guys. People don't like multivariate problems, they want. Is that it's it's a willful misrepresentation of a reality? Yes- and I think he's Mears, this willful misrepresentation of where your stuff, where you stand- and I think yes are all time getting together with people- want bad and good they one hundred and one in a zero. They want things to be very binary.
They want them to be binary in the way they already understand. They want everything to fit their ideological lens, and things are more complicated than that. This is a complex discussion that you're not going to get in a five minute segment on a talk show You are not going to get this on. A radio show you're not going to get this in an article that gets edited by someone with a biased opinion, and this is the problem with mainstream media, and this is the problem ideas period. Warren Farrell's book on he wrote a book called up. Warren Farrell is the guy who's. Most of what would you call the most pilloried for pointing out the real reasons for the gender pay gap? He wrote a book called why men make more hoodie right it for his daughters. Why? Because he wanted to help now. Obviously he was doing it for public consumption as well, but one of motivations was well men do make more well why and if women want to make more, what could they learn from the men who make more how to make more? And the answer is yes, the question is whether or not they'll do it and the probable probable answers most women. Won't, because how much you make isn't
only hallmark of success in your life. You know it's like It's one measure and it might be a measure that really competitive men compete for and they do and that's partly to provide access to two increase mating opportunities, 'cause, that's built into the structure, something we never talk about either, although we could so Warren wrote this to lay out all the reasons that men make more, but it was so that his daughters, at least in part, so that his daughters could figure how to be socio economically successful, it's like yeah, but that's not the only hallmark. How much so economic success. Are you willing to sacrifice to spend time with your kids before their three years old right? Well, the answer to that shouldn't be. None right, because what make look? We already know this for, for example, once you, make enough money to keep the bill collectors at bay. So that's kind of lower upper working class say something like even centrist. Working Klaus keep the bill collectors at Bay. Additional money doesn't improve your quality of life. Other things do
so. Maybe it's a rational response when you're, like thirty, see the irrational man, here's the irrational man. Maybe they drive the world but they're the irrational man success is always better along this unit, dimensional axis of achievement in gecko, is good. Well, there's a tiny percentage of men who are hyper competitive along those single axis of competition, and maybe they drive most things they probably do, but that make them right. It also doesn't make them most people and it doesn't make them happy. Well happy. Is the whole different issue that isn't like they're out of it, because everyone is well. You are, though, in pursuit of success. It's implied that happiness goes with that success. Otherwise why the fuck are you doing it yeah well, DOM
this domination power back active? That's charisma, prestige well, yeah plight. It is. It is a success and happiness or date during inexorably connected in our perception yeah. Well, this all off to Austin a Florida question. You know like what happens. Look. I worked in law firms with law firms for very long period of time and I worked for lots of high end women, lots of them and they were like they were usually extremely attractive. They were extremely intelligent. They were extremely driven. They were very. Very conscientious They varied in how agreeable they were somewhere, disagreeable, litigator types and somewhere more agreeable. They often had a harder time in the law firms, but the firms lose all their women in the 30s. They all bail out at partner level, a lot of them Jesus, it's yeah good percentage, it it's a huge percentage, Is it because the law firms don't want them? The law firms want them, because you can't find people like that the really rare, especially if they're, also rain makers if they can bring in money. So the loft.
Is bend themselves over backwards, trying to keep the women. It can't keep them. Why? Well the women decide that? Oh I'm, looking eighteen hours a day flat out all the time. Seven days a week, my husband makes a fair bit of money if I made half as much money as I made, we still have plenty of money. Why am I working eighteen hours was a day? Well, that's not the question. The question is: why would anyone work eighteen hours a day? That's the mystery, and now, There is a small minority of men are driven to do that, and so they'll do no matter where you put these guys, that's what they do. Yes, ok, but that does that mean it's correct? I think, there's something wrong with these women. They hit thirty they've hit partner. They've hit the pinnacle. I mean they keep going if they wanted to, but they've accomplished their goal, they've definitely showing Ma'Am there bloody well in the game, and they wake up at thirty, and they think oh wait a minute. I want to have a relationship, and also I want to have some time to put into that. I'd like to have kids- and I did,
actually like to see my kids, it's like. Is that a rash? This is another thing that you and I are in agreement on, but when I see people talk about the way you discuss women, they misrepresent what you're saying and paint you in what it. What I think we will fully paint you they do. On purpose. They paint you as a misogynist. I don't stand why I don't understand if it is because they disagree with you on things, so this is a convenient way to demonize your position by demonising you as a human being, but well it's partly too, because I made the case that there are differences between men and women. Yes, the bike like why that isn't a feminist case is beyond me. It's like no they're, exactly the same, no they're, not it's ridiculous! It is, and it's ridiculous. It's convincing, purposefully, confusing yeah and then thing is the data are in so look and people have choose me of pseudoscience. You know which I really think is quite comical, because this- the studies that I'm reporting aren't who's,
I have sudo, so God, journalists, journalist of all stripes, especially when I talk about differences between men and women. It's like that pseudoscience is like. Actually, no it's not it's bloody mainstream science, both biology and psychology, but why do they like to do that? Well, because it see seems to be. There is a reason that goes along with the radical leftist agenda that if there are that a world of equality of uh, Come could not be achieved and that's the desirable world if there are actually differences between people actual differ like they aren't just socio, culturally constructed so that you can gerrymander there's also something as well. If you're, the power mad. You want to believe. Human beings are infinitely malleable because then you can mold them in whatever image you want and if you say no, they actually have a character right. There's something built in then that interfere with the totalitarian regime, but here's what's happened is like look: we've got a good personality model, we've had it for about forty or something like that. The big five model, five Dement is a personality and they were established statistically a theoretically
left, leaning psychologists, I'm not saying that their idiot logically contaminated, but what I am saying is: there's no evidence whatsoever that right wing, leaning, psychologists produced the big 5b there are no right, leaning psychologists. So enough of that, that isn't why the big five came up. Ok, so once you have a good personality model, you can say: ok, well, do men and women differ and answer is yeah. It turns out they do, there's quite a few differences but the biggest These are women are more agreeable. So that's one of the traits agreeableness and it's the compassion, politeness, dimension and they're, more prone to negative emotion. Anxiety and emotional pain and that mirrors a psychiatric literature that shows worldwide that women are more likely to be diagnosed with depression and anxiety. Just black men are more likely to be imprisoned for antisocial behavior, which is the reflection of low agreeableness. This is true worldwide. Ok, so there's no evidence of any bias and less you say
everything's, biased everywhere in the world, fine could be, but we've also controlled for that. So now there are personality differences, be men and women. Now the first thing we might point out- is there not that big? So if you draw a random woman and a random man out of the population, and you had to bet on who is most aggressive least agreeable- and you bet on the woman You'D- be right. Forty percent of the time, which is actually quite a lot right- quite a lot, but if you take the one in one hundred person who's most aggressive least agreeable, there's an overwhelming probability that they'll be mailed, because the differences get more extreme at the at the ends of the distribution. People don't understand the statistics. You can have two populations that are quite similar and will have radically dissimilar outcomes, if only the extremes matter so like who are the most powerful physic. Full fighters in the world. Men. All of them
What does that mean that there are no women who can beat a man in a fight? No, it also doesn't mean that there are there's plenty of women who are more aggressive than men, but if you take the mode just aggressive physically powerful people, there all men, all of them, because they're like one in one thousand people or one in ten thousand people So you can have walloping differences at the extremes, despite most similarity at the middle people. Don't understand that, but then the next thing is ok. Well, there are differences between men and women personality wise apart from the biological ones,. Are those caused by cultural differences. Hey turns out, we can answer that how rank order Countries by how igala terrion their social policies are. Does everyone agree yeah yeah the scanned? avians are out the top. Everyone agrees left right doesn't matter, everyone agrees, it's like ok, so you stack up the cultures by Howie Gala Terian, their social
policies are and then you look to see how big the differences are between men and women, up that hierarchy, the Gallot Arianism, and if, as the societies become or e gala Terrian, the differences between men and women disappear, then its socio cultural. That isn't what happened? What happened was is that how's, the societies got more egalitarian. The differences between men and women got bigger, not smaller. It means the so shield cultural construct people and I'm talk into socio cultural construct. People you're wrong. You're wrong, you may this society is more egalitarian men and women get more different. Who makes the argument in opposition of this all all the social construction is all the radical left wing or say what are the uses fat? They don't have facts, but then they criticize the whole idea of fact. Then they go after the whole idea of science. As I, as a does western patriarchal construct. What's their motivation, the
motivation is that if people are different than equality of outcome is, is neither desirable nor achievable, and why do they equality of outcome? Why is this so good question part of it is part of it is actual compassion. Look brand! It's not good that! people lose and it's certainly not good that some losers lose all the time who wants that you happy can you walk down the street and see homeless people like hey? Look the hierarchies working! Look at these homeless people no ones happy about that right, right! Ok! So the fact failure within a hierarchy of value is painful and so to give the devil his due. You give the left. It's do just like you do the right, like yeah, it's painful that hierarchies produce dispossession, bloody right. Ok, what's the cure get rid of the hierarchy? Hey! Well, wait! A minute man! You get rid of the hierarchy, get rid of the values;
get rid of the tools that allow us to generate absolute wealth and stop people from starving. It's a catastrophe. Okay! So so there's there's a problem. You have to have the harkey, but then also it isn't just compassion on the left. It's envy! It's like! Ok, if I'm so, if I'm standing or the dispossessed. What makes me so sure that I'm not just standing against the successful and maybe that's 'cause, I'm big and jealous, and envious and resentful, and certainly it's highly probable. If you look at what happened in the leftist societies that tried to pursue you and- and you don't read- envy and resentment into that you're, not you don't know the history, because that's clearly the, why else did they become murderous? This is the questions like clearly the case that the Soviet Union, for example, was motivated by the desire for equality of outcome as a primary motivation. What happened? Twenty five million people were killed. Why
why what was it all compassion and love for the dispossessed, or was it absolutely bitter resentment and hatred for anyone who any shred of success whatsoever on any possible dimension of evaluation? So this compassion for people that aren't doing well when utilized the wrong way or when approached the wrong way, leads to attacking people that do well, the danger of compassion? That's exactly! Well, look what happens if you get, you think all look at. How isn't it lovely that the mother Grizzly Bear takes care of her cubs yeah? It's lovely till you get between her and her cubs, and it's not so I'm lovely and that's the flip side of that. If it is agreeableness, it's like if you, if you on my side, you know if you're the infant sheltering under my wings. It's like I'm, I'm the absolute epitome of eternal love care, but if I did, if you as a predator, you betta,
look the hell out and that's playing out in a political landscape in a very, very rapid rate, that's the female side of totalitarianism. As far as I can tell the feminine side of totalitarianism, it's not just that! It's not just that agreeableness motivates aggression, because it certainly does it's also that it's that the envious and resentful can use compassion as a as a camouflage for their true intent, which is tear down anyone who has more than them. That's the why you notice like when there's discussions about the one percent we already talked both this who's, the one percent. Well, it's I'm not I'm! In an in I mean that in the park in New York are demonstrating against Wall Street down with the one percent. It's like wait, a second you're in the one percent there, mister protester! No, no, you don't understand the rich are those who have more money than me? Yes, right, that's the definition, who's rich, someone who has more than me. Not me it's like
Well, why? Why isn't the one percent North America? Why not? Because it's inconvenient that's an inconvenient fact so, that's part of it but the envy and resentment. This is that the real logical end of the full compassion, that motivates the radical left. It's like yeah, you like the poor, do you what makes you think you just don't hate the successful now the question like because you're, not perfect man, there's hatred in you and the probability that it's more power I felt in love is pretty damn high, so so look to your own look to your own viewpoint before you go out there and try fix the hierarchies of the world, just exactly what it is, and it's worse like look in russian revolution. For example, let's say just for the sake of argument that the first rung of revolutionaries were only driven by compassion. Maybe they were they all got killed.
He got killed by the people who came after and they weren't so interested in compassion at all? They were interested in ferreting out everyone who had a modicum of success on any dimension and and doing them in, and that happened in way. If, after bloody wave that killed the successful farmers, those were the kulaks killed all the run, all up, kill them, rape them still. The property sent the minutes to Siberia, froze them to death, ten years later: six million Ukrainians dot because they couldn't raise crops. Why do You think that people are so opposed to discussing these things order channel in cultural norms, because one the things that I've seen a in terms of the differences between men and women, this this reaction to some of the things that you said has been very. It's very strange to me.
It's very strange that people aren't recognizing that these are on balanced approaches and that the there's some of it's just complicated Joe it's like well. Let's say there are differences between men and women just for the sake of argument, the biggest differences, so to be an interest by the way. So, what's going to happen is that if we let men and women sort themselves out, there aren't going to be there many female engineers in tech types and there's going to be a lot of female nurses. I agree many male many male nurses care healthcare types, they're, not gonna. We met very many male elementary school teachers, but is this a bath? Well, that's the question who knows do we know I don't know all the idea of having an equal society where gender, inequality is completely knocked down. Gender pay gap is, does nonexistent yeah? Well, that's a problem because that's a big quality of alcohol. It's also the equality of outcome thing is a non starter whether it's ok, okay with like, if men and women sort themselves into different occupations which looks highly probable, I don't know if that's okay and then it's also like okay, compared to what
alternative right, like you? Should every elementary school teacher be female? Should every psychologist be female? 'cause, that's what's happening. And the answer to that is well, I don't know but but there's another answer which is well. What do you propose as an alternative to free choice that isn't cause more trouble than free choice. 'cause, I would say, Ok, let's say I'm a feminist for the sake of argument. Alright, so I think well, there are differences between men and women. There are actual differences, and so some of those are biological. Some of them are our strategic in some sense, because women Payab your price for reproduction, and so that's going to lead them to make different choices. That's just rational, based on its rationality, based on biological differences. So it's like a second order. Biological difference. There's differences in temperament interest they're, going it's going to lead them to make different choices. Is that a profile just answered anti feminist stance? It's only at FM. Just if you assume everyone has to be exactly the same in the outcomes have to be exactly the same. If,
if your goal is no leave people the hell alone as much as possible, let them make their own informed and free choices. Then you let the differences manifest themselves in the world, and you take your you. Take your knox because of that the problem with that is this narrative of equality, the equality of outcome yeah and just equality of human beings. We just looking at people's we're all equal. We not just people are better different. Things were equal in terms of our rights or each in terms of the way we should treat each or metaphysically equal. Yes right, but where every other dimension were radically unequal this pain in that that's that's the problem. The problem is, the problem. Is the pain in that Israel, the only thing that's worse than the pain of inequality is the pain of forced equality and I'm not been fassel about that. It's like look, I see the the IQ issues. That is the killer one for me, it's like look if you have an iq
less than eighty three. You can't be inducted into the american military bylaw. Why 'cause there isn't there's nothing. You can do that, isn't counterproductive. Despite the fact that the army wants you, they can't get enough manpower, that's what they decided It's like ok, so you are on the low end of the cognitive distribution. What are you going to do not much and it's going to get worse. Is that good? It's not good torab. Do we know what to do about it? No right we can have equality of outcome amongst people with lower than eighty three iqs right, no one! No one is advocating for that. No one is asking for that. Well people, you say: well, the IQ tests aren't valid. It's like well yeah, one of the conversations that you had that I found to be shocking. And it started a trend of misquoting in representing you was you did an article and interview with vice they use a snippet of one the things you said and tried to pretend that you had made these very curt statements and why
of them, while he was, he was annoying. So I got kind of curtain that was probably my suggested you care make up. Is that the one you talk, yeah yeah, yes make up in the way people dress, you know and yeah. Well, I was trying to draw a lot. First of all, how was he annoying? He knew everything you know everything. Well, I was just in his attitude. Good. You know it was common jinyu. He wanted. He wanted this from the very beginning. This was him. Arms crossed right right eyes up. It's like, like a, I know more than you, and be your probably that reprehensible person that I've thought It's my job to reveal he was signaling, he's left, leaning He was deciding that you, what you were doing was representing the patriarchy or you are representing mail. Structures that he was saying that are that they're not correct yeah well, that's how you felt about an accurate assessment, but it wasn't even that it was left, leaning. I've talked to reasonable left, leaning people. It was built right into it. Gratitude, and so it made me a little testy are than I might have been, which was my strategic air, and you know you,
earlier well. Why do I get pilloried with some regularity in some of? It? Is probably my own inadequacy, you know it's not. It isn't that I'd handled all the opportunities that I've had perfectly you know and I can get hot under the collar. It's a mistake. It's a mistake, because the right approach in these situations is to use minimal, necessary force and to allow myself to get irritated, let's say even minorly when I'm faced with someone who's doing. This is not productive, doesn't work well, and so I really need we keep that under control and when I do keep it under control, it works better. The make up one was particularly annoying to me, because I think it's a valid conversation, but I also said I said, and they didn't put this in their initial cut. I said I'm not saying that women shouldn't be allowed to wear make up in the workplace. I said that explicitly is why people are so angry when they saw the full version of it. I mean the full version was released. Someone leaked it right, someone who fell
like you are being misrepresented and that the editing was unjust, decided to leak it and people were. Absolutely furious yeah. Well, I think I think the vice people actually released it, but other people took the full release and clipped it with the clip To release and showed how it was being miserable, it was yeah, but so ok, so the makeup thing: it's like alright, look! Here's the first of all I make a mistake. Sometimes in treating journalists like, I would treat my graduate students. So when I'm having a conversation with my students- and we said well, here's a problem- no actual exercise- a sexual sexual behavior. How do we ray calculate? What are the norms around sexual behavior in the workplace? So that's a question. It's a question. We don't know. Ok, here's a bunch of possibilities, possible rules right, no flirting, no hugging, no eye contact for more than five seconds. That's Netflix right, no huh, damn right, they have no, I contact for more than five seconds? That's holy Shit, NBC, no hugging,
It's a real it's real with the fuck. What, if you're, having a a conversation with a woman who's, your boss and she's, asking you questions about things. Then you look down every five seconds, fucking Christ! Is that really? Yes? Yes, it's real, it's real and so bad that such a terrible idea. Yes, yeah! It's a terrible idea. But there's a lot of women that I'm friends with that I've never had any sexual interest at all and we look at each are used in a I don't what you say, but you're a potential rapist manifestation. Yes, you can lower denture right. Yes, you get the whole picture so so, if you have a discussion, you say well, look: what are the rules governing sexual behavior in the workplace? Okay, Can you come to work in a negligee? No, how about boxers if you're a man? No okay, so there's some out a short skirt. Well, this is the thing the devil's in the bloody details. Right, it's like okay! We, you can't come to work naked. You can't come to work boxer shorts. You can come to work in a suit okay, so
the line is somewhere between boxers and suit. Where exactly is the line? Exactly? Can a man wear shorts. Well can like in a woman wear it dropped the way that men in profess criminal organisations the way that men solve this problem, was that everyone wore a uniform and a uniform makes you uniform. That's why you, where it and the uniform is the suit and it's a derivate and of a military, military garp, and so the id was what we want to get rid of s, diverse city right right in clothing, we're your damn suit! Then we know you're playing the game and we don't have to be distracted by what you're wearing okay. So that's what men do so now women come into the workspace like what do they do? Well, there business professional dress, right? There's some rules around that, but but what are the exactly exactly- and I was thinking well we're worried about,
sexual misbehavior in the workplace. You can't look at someone for more than five seconds. You can't give them a hug. Okay, what about make do we have a discussion about makeup up we can have a discussion about that like well, is make up sexual signaling like well. If you're a few evolutionary biologist. The question is makeup: sexual signaling. That's not even a question like all of see that's what it is, that's what our conversation was frustrating because he was saying because they want to do it. They want to wear it. They want to look good well in, and maybe it isn't even me. Well, that's right! That's right that! That's it! That's right! What does that eat? But if anything well everyone knows what that means. He has to say that no, he has to say that, because in his tribe you have to communicate that way. Well, you know this is a list of it he's call we women wear make up because they want to look good but do you are you? What do you mean by that? Because that's his take or because he's in a row. You well getting riled up right now, both as a journalist, it's kind of his idea or his job to challenge you and I'm
I ended up in the very least offer the devil's advocate opinion. Sure, explain yourself better. Why shouldn't they wear make up. They just want to look good. You need to explain yourself better why you single yeah, but the way he did it was like old Doctor Peterson. It's obvious what it means for them to look good, like everyone Does that do you think? Well, I don't know what like perhaps like. He was intellectually sparring with you and he was being aggressive about it. I think he felt. I think he felt that I think he felt that it, is necessary to challenge me that that was his role as a journalist but fundamental he was smogged. He thought he came at the entire conversation with an air of intellectual condescension. It was built right into the discussion. From the beginning and he never dropped it and like well. I know what you're doing it I know. What's up and I know how to take you apart, and I know that whatever you're talking about is just an attempt. To defend your, how long reheat all opinions- oh god, about an hour- something like that? How much did they use or when the clips hardly any of it? I don't even know a couple of minutes so
Yeah yeah, so your tendency to get riled up can be exploited. Yes, of course, in it it's it's. It's the problem of deviating from the doctrine of minimal necessary force like the best times, the best interactions I've had with contentious journalists is where I absolutely kept my cool. You know, but time and light has Newman. Yes, exactly exactly what you're saying is: that's. He was like I know who you are, and I know you're covering it up. It's like well, it's these these concepts, these complex situations when you find men and women who are sexually attracted to each other and they're working in confined environments for long periods of time, and they essentially spend more time with the people they work with and they do with their lovers and their wives, their husbands and it's weird, you know, men and women interact with each other and closed in boxes, is weird brain offices bring those in box they're all together and if they find
each other attractive and they're interacting with each other socially, especially if there's any interaction that deviates outside of the work discussion. Are you also? Don't you also don't want them to find each other unattractive right like like, if you're taking someone out for dinner on a business dinner, it's like even if, if it dies going out together, let's say it's not like there were looking to find each other unattractive and I don't mean sexually. There's you want a matter. Ask yourself is what I enjoy each other's can't. You do when you want to be charismatic and you want to be witty and all of those things in that shades and especially when you, when you add assuming a heterosexual environment, you add a heterosexual component to that. The borders become fuzzy, and so I was talking about border conditions, yet we're going to have a conversation about this. Let's talk about the border conditions, oh no, we can't do that but do you know discussion you guys wanted? Why do you, continued agree to have these conversations that are going. Be edited. Oh well, that's a good question.
But the Jim Jefferies One was another one of the a friend of mine, but I mean he gave good question and you actually gave a good answer. He you said actually I'm probably yeah yeah. You were talking about whether or not people. We should whether someone should be forced to bake a cake for cake for gay people. You said forced to probably not They don't want to get bake a cake for black people and he said well, actually probably they probably should be or stew yeah. Well, I'm probably wrong yeah. Well, I was probably wrong in everything I did in that in that part of the discussion, because I hadn't thought that it through enough to actually give a good answer, you didn't expect that issue because is not not something you talk about known it's. Actually complicated right. It means obviously the whole. I won't serve you because you're black thing is not good, but then again you have. You also have. Right to choose who you're going to affiliate with, but then that's complicated, because it's a commercial circumstance and then, if you're, making a cake Is that the same as serving or is that compelled speech? It's like home, my god. These are
order, cases that cause a lot of controversy. I don't mean serving black people. Obviously, that's not a border case, but these cases that cause a lot of controversy is where two principal at awards and it isn't exactly clear where to draw the line when I'm not happy with. You know, I'm not happy with the way my answer to that, but I hadn't spent that, like we It would take to think through the issue and really have a comprehensive perspective. You can expect that to be a subject anyway. No, no! What? How long did you talk to Jim for all, I think about forty five minutes, maybe an hour, and I noticed two minutes yeah well, my daughter told me- and my wife is well my son as well in these discussions- we've been thinking about how handle a media which is, from God a very complicated question and one hypothesis being don't, do it interviews that will be edited and I've thought about that and
and been thinking about it, and that might be the right answer. It might be the right answer going Frank. It is right and well it could be. It could easily be, although the only way you can be misrepresented. All of the problems that I've seen with you all of them come from you being edited I mean there's complex subjects that people would disagree with you want, but when you look at complete MIS characterizations of your point. These have been established because of added. Yes, well I guess the only counter argument is this, and I mean of these a lot of these opportunities. Come I've had opportunities that are coming at me rate at a rate that doesn't allow me to think them through as much as I could optimally. But then there's another thing, which is it, isn't necessarily a mistake lay yourself open to attack because sometimes it reveals the motives of the attackers. Think that's what open in the Kathy Newman Interview. Now, that could
going really sideways like I was lucky there to some degree, because she interviewed me for forty minutes or whatever and something like that, and then they did chop it down to seven minutes or three minutes, and it was exactly what you'd expect, and that is what I expected after I walked away from the interview. I thought- oh, my god, they're just going to chop this into represent able segments and pillory me, but I walked away from it because there was fifty other things to do, but then was so funny because they did do that and then they put up the whole interview and the reason they put up the whole interview was because they thought the interview went fine. It isn't that I knew that that was going to cause commotion, not at all, not a bit not a bit, and I know this for a fact, so they put up the whole interview and then well. What happened was what was actually have running revealed itself and that was very, very effective. Now that have a
that happen meant that I had exposed myself to substantial stress and risk, as that was stressful, I mean first of all, there was the interview. Second afterwards, I thought. Oh, my god, I'm going to get pilloried for, but then they did release the cut then they release the whole thing. Then there was all this response to it and then then, the Newman people who were absolutely flabbergasted by the negative it said Peterson is on leased. His army of trolls and poor Kathy had to go into hiding it's like there's no evidence of any credible threats. They said they called in the police, but you can do that without there being reason you can just say that, which is what they said: they played a victim narrative instantly, although one thing Kathy Newman is not even though she might play it at the behest of her employers is a victim she's. One of the most powerful people in Britain, she's no victim so to play the victim card, a situation like that is absolutely reprehensible, but that's what they did and they like a dozen newspapers, did it and said well. Petersons trolls are attacking pork
Kathleen. I thought you didn't screw. You don't own your fans, the idea that people that are in interested in the things that you have to say that you have control over them like you can give them marching orders foolish well, it's also sleep well and how many million, how many million people do there have to be before they're? Not all trolls That was the real issue there. It's like! Ok, ten thousand people commented on the video trolls. Ok, what about one hundred and fifty thousand what about ten million well now, if you look at the video, which is about ten million plus all the clips, it's like fifty million and the comments. The pro the comments that are critical with regards to Kathy Newman's conduct are running about fifty to one. So that's all trolls is it. I don't think sense proposed is that there is far stretch, but you see that was. That was a good example of of taking the severity taking the risk- and I'm not saying it's justified, and I think that it's very, very, very stressful. You know, but you know you take the good. You take the bad law
with the good, and maybe maybe it's time for me. It might be time for me just to disappear to some degree altogether You worry about being overexposed. Oh definitely have been worried about that for along in time yeah, and is there any benefit in that Well, if it in more exposure, are we talking about the same thing we were talking about earlier with regards to men? working insane hours? I mean. Have you your message out enough that you don't have to do the Esr Dick Ulous interviews constantly, maybe maybe well, and I don't want to turn into a parody of myself, and all of that I mean. I think and I am trying to handle this and I've got people who are advising we were trying to figure it out. Are I think that this tour is a good thing? Yes, and but that's that's very controlled. I think we'll tell me so completely yes exactly! It is in long form conversations yes, and I think that coming on
podcast podcasting talking to Ruben on his shows and so forth. I think that's good, the interaction with the journalist, I'm certainly not taking anywhere near the number of opportunities that I have in front of me right. We are trying we very careful in picking and choosing, but that doesn't always go well and it like it could be that it's could be that I shouldn't do anything that is edited at all. That's certainly possible, so. Well. This is the problem you you speak in. These you speak in these long form, pod gas and interviews, and you get a chance to extrapolate unpacked, some pretty complicated issues and come pair them to other complicated issues and try to find meaning in middle ground and try to try to illuminate certain positions when you who expose yourself to editing. You
expose yourself to someone's idea of what the narative should be and how to frame your positions in it in and dishonest way mean you're, seeing it time and time again and it expose is the problem with medium look. I went to the Aspen ideas festival last week, which is a whole story in and uh self. But I was interviewed there by a journalist from the Atlantic Monthly and it was a relative- really long form interview. I think we talked for forty minutes, something like that and it's going to be edited now. I trusted her. I trust her now whether that'll be how that will play out in the final edit. I don't know because she won't be the only one making the decision right. Well, the quest in his should have I done it well look. It was the aspen ideas festival to different audiences left, leaning, I thought. Well maybe I'll go talk to a left leading audience. People are always criticizing me for not doing that. I usually don't. But because I don't get invited, but so I went and talked to them. It's like in Berry Weiss in
you'd, be in front of the aspen ideas festival that was long form, uncut and put on the web, and so maybe that was useful. The Atlantic thing well, it might be good, we'll see. It does expose me to the risk, though, because it'll be edited soul and it was it wise to do it. Look I've been fortunate, so far Despite the fact that I've been taken out of context at times and fairly significant proportion of times, but not overwhelming majority of times the net consequence of all of that has been. To engage more and more people in complex dialogue? As far as I can tell so, that's the good, that's the good. It doesn't mean strategy that I've implemented so far is the only strategy that will work into the future. We can also clue really establish it. You didn't plan in this to happen. This whole thing that
happened from you opposing bill and then going to where you are, how many years later now, two years, two years, almost that's fucking, crazy yeah, I mean you think about transformation of your life and your your public image, it's unprecedented. I don't, I can't think of a single public intellectual that gone from being a universal university, professor to being essentially a household name, I mean you get brought up with at least my circle of friends all the time and people that I run into all the time. I can't tell you how many people are running into their comedy shows are in an airport that they talk to me about you so this is a mainstream thing. It was so that can does not there's no precedent. No well. It's partly. You know. That's also part the consequence This technology is like. Yes, you know like two thousand and thirteen. I thought what will happen if I put my lectures up on you too, it's like.
Beware man and that's what I thought when I made the bill c, sixteen videos I got up at like two in the morning. I thought this is bloody. Well driving me crazy that damn university going a force, Uncon just bias retraining, which is not a validated process by any stretch of the imagination on its employees, and I work for the university and I miss I called so what what is the what's? Why are they doing that? Why would they do that? They do do that to silence people that are protesting. Are they doing that because they want to enforce a certain type of behavior? While I there's two reasons. I think that there's some genuine concern for the dispossessed and then there's some hatred for the successful in some indian some resentment. It's like everything that people do it's complicated. You know, but the that the path ology is well that that the hr types, for example at the university, think it's okay for them to re, train other people about their hypothetical views. On the off chance that they might be racist and and forcing them to admit that the racist by making them agreed to participate in the training
I don't think that, but for me that wasn't even the issue, although it was an issue, the issue is, we can't measure unconscious bias, reliably invalidly, I'm psychologist in a research psychologist. I know the literature, that's a misuse of it. It's a misuse of it and the Damn university was doing it. They were hiring consultants who know what the hell they were talking about. Let me ask you this: if they are, this is adversities yes, is a establishment for higher learning, how can they possibly act on something when there's no clear evidence that it's real, that it works, that it's effective and they're doing it just to make people happy or just to make themselves Abby or just to reinforce an idea that they want to be try. That's the thing, that's the thing it's part of for me. It was part of the head. Gemini of the radical left sex- no, no you're you're not going to do that at the university. I work out without me telling people that they
there's no warrant for that from the psychological community, so anyways I got up at two in the morning and made these videos I thought. Well, let's see what happens if I make these videos it's like well, this is back to the technology issue. It's like. I didn't know what Youtube was when I put my video on it. You didn't know what you two was well, you know what I mean. No wonder I would you to be. Is how do you think will look what happened to you? A million billion and a half downloads a year. It's like you're, definitely riding a giant wave like would have you predicted this fifteen years ago, no sew. So you know you're in the right place and the right time and you're very interesting interview, because well especially for long form, because you're very, very curious, but also very, very tough, like it's interesting watching you, because if you don't have on something you will go after the person and you're not doing it in a vindictive way, but you're. Quite a formidable interviewer and and I've been trying to figure out why you're so success.
And like your lot, smarter than anyone might think, which is quite interesting, so you're, a weird combination, because you know your persona doesn't shout intellectual, but your damn smart and you're tough as a bloody boot, and you ask ready provocative questions and not because you're provocative, and so your personality in this long form seem to suit The reading well, you're also really good at pursuing things. You don't understand, instead of assuming that you know what you're talking about. So you take the listeners on a journey right. It's an exploratory journey. But fundamentally, what's propelled you to superstardom in some sense is not just your ability, which is non trivial, but the fact that you're on this giant technological wave and you're one of the first adopters and I'm in the same situation were first adopters of a technology. That's as revolutionary as the Gutenberg Printing Press and so that's all unfolding in real time. It's like look at what's happening, yeah well, the spoken word is now as powerful as the written word. It's never happened before in human history and we're on the cutting edge,
that for better or worse, that's a very good way to put it. The spoken word is just power yeah and maybe even more so because it's so accessible to people that don't have the time to read or stuck in traffic you know or or and here's another possibility, maybe ten times as many people can listen to complex information, as can read complex information in terms of their ability to crop it could easily. We don't know- maybe it's too, maybe it's the same, certainly easier to listen to a book on tape for me than it is to read a book yeah well, so for us. So the question is for how many people is that true- and I would say it might be true for the for the majority of people and then p doing hyper. You know so because you can sink your book with auto all right so yeah read when they have the time, but then, when they have found time, which is also a major component of this, that's the time when you're driving on the time when you're in dishes is now all of a sudden. You can educate yourself during that found time. This is a big revolution and the
I'm blowing out the bandwidth makes a huge difference because well we talked about that at the beginning. Looks like people are more engine than we thought and you and I are both in the rest of this intellectual dark web. That's kind of what unites us a is. Everybody has an independent platform, virtually everybody. They have an idiosyncratic viewpoint. They're interested in have discussions and pursuing the furtherance of their knowledge, even though they might have a primary ideological commitment. Sam, doesn't, I suppose I do, and Ben Shapiro certainly does, but they're still interested in having the discussion but more importantly, they're capitalizing on the long form and and the fact that that's possible is a reflection of this technological transformation and the technological transfer information might be utterly profound. It looks like it and so that's you know. Well, I've been trying to sort this out because I keep thinking what the hell are. These people come to listen to what I'm saying is like. Well, I'm a girl. You know I'm a sage, it's something like that. It's like don't be thinking that first.
Think if there's situational determinants first take your personality out of it. Okay, what's going on? Oh, yes, this is all fostered by Youtube and fostered by podcasts. What's so new about that, no bandwidth restrictions, no barrier to entrance possibility of die log, because people cut up the Youtube videos into chunks and make their own comments on a whole new communication technology. Also, a lack of in it's by executives and producers and all these different people that have their own bias. Unmediated. Yes, on mediated as giant yeah, yeah well, and that's all part part of the reason you're so popular to is, like you just put this on. Thank so you've got exactly the right balance of our competent production because there's nothing x. That's about it thinks it's competent, but no more than that, I know that's by design, but you also don't edit it it's like what you see is what you it's like everyone's relieved. By that we can make her own damn decisions. Do, I think, that's very important you're going to have a conversation with someone as honest. You can't decide
and what to leave and what to take out it's just That's partly also why a deal with the press. The way I do yes, if I'm going to have a full conversation, it's like I'm willing to take the hits. Yeah and- and I understand what you're saying, but that's one of the reasons why it frustrates me so much is that I see what they're doing and I'm like what you're is ancient. What you're doing is it's it's. This is what people did. Twenty years ago, thirty years ago, for you can't really do that anymore. You can't miss represent people used to be able to. If you were in the press you could take. People quote about of text do whatever the fuck. You wanted put an article about them. They couldn't do a God. Damn thing about. It happened to me and nineteen boy, it was is like ninety nine. I did uh. I had a comedy cd that came out in this woman wrote an article about it and it just she just lied, she lied about my perspective. She lied about the bits she misquoted. The bay but she didn't just paraphrase them. She changed what the bits were to make them. You know
large nest, hateful or whatever it was, and in doing so I that no recourse. There was nothing that I could do about them like wow. I've never experienced that before I was like this is stunning, and I found this person did that a lot, and this is what she did and there Where is ultimate power? That comes with being the person who has the pen being the person has a typewriter and you the other person who works for you know the Boston Globe, whatever the publication is that that is something that existed forever, you know and that you had to be either a friend of the press. You to play ball: you had you had to bend to their will. You have to do what they wanted you to do and they could this represent you and choose to paint you in any way they like, and it's one of the reasons why I don't do anything anymore. I don't do interviews anymore, I don't do anything. I don't want to do anything, I do enough man, you wanna, know about me: fucking, there's a thousand podcasts there's more than one thousand years. I think there's
it is eleven hundred and there's a bunch of other one story right, it's just it's! It doesn't make any sense yeah! Well that that's that that it may also be the position that I increasingly find myself it. I think it's the right position, because then the misrepresentations don't exist anymore. So then, the only problem is the dispute over the actual ideological conversations or the actual answer, but you know the thing is you know you made a point there? That's quite interesting is like we are in the new media landscape. So now, if someone comes out as a as a media figure with some institutional credibility and misrepresents its exposed, and so then the question is how much risk should you shoulder to expose the proclivity for media misrepresentation and the answer to that might be some now it might be moving. You know. Maybe I've done enough, about. I mean it would be easier for me in many ways, if I just stop doing it, but but
some utility and having it play out and so well. So I'm try, I'm just I'm trying to only take those opportunities that appear to have more, in effect, then risk and when I defining benefit well, the question is, then what constitutes benefit, and I guess what constitutes benefit is well. That would further the attempts that I'm making to bring information to a vast number of people that could conceivably help them stabilize and in prove their individual lives. That's worth a certain amount of risk. Will it certainly increases your profile increases your profile and even if you know you have sixty percent, these people are going to get a bad perception of you. Forty percent of these people that never heard of you now we're going to understand who you are because they do further investigation. So there's some benefit in that, but the negative I mean I get text messages from random people that I was friends with years ago. Let's say this
order. Peterson is just such a lying. Sack of shit needs this now. I don't even know who the fuck you are and, second of all like why you contacting me, you know I'm saying Hi Jordan, just as of this yeah yeah. Well, there's a number c at hand, he's a scam artist, he's a fraud he's in it and I'm like wow and so they'll see an interview. You know like that, the Jim Jefferies Clip which is a minute long or whatever it is, or the vice peace or the initial Cathy Newman Peace, and they this form. This determined position on you and then read hit pieces on you and then this. This is where they take their opinion. This is where it's from and and it's I I feel like these are the last gasps of a dying medium. I really do I just I think to I don't I don't think that people appreciate it. I think the people that are listening to this that do appreciate long form conversations and with all warts and all
all the ugliness and the mistakes in the critical errors and the able appreciate that that they they have a real hate for being lied to. You know, because it's it it changed when, when you trying to are treated as if they're stupid, yes yeah, which they aren't yeah, that's both it's just it's! It's deceptive when you, when you add it someone and take their words out of context and change them around your being deceptive in New York Times. Did that again this week they had some philosophy. Professor from Hong Kong University, write a piece on me and he took they quoted me. It was a sentence. There's like the first phrase was in quotes, and then there was some joining words and then the second phrase was in quotes and there were some joining words and then the third phrase was in quotes and the he quotes added up to a statement that bore no resemblance whatsoever to what I was saying. How can they do that in the New York Times? Well, that seems to me to be something that should be the the. I don't
they still. I don't think we can do. I think they're killing their brand so fast that they do that they can't, but it is sold to disturbing to me, as a person has been a fan of the New York Times over and over, and I just don't understand how they can allow that to happen. How would you allow your? What is the gold standard for journalism? How could you allow to become something that willfully miss represent someone, but they never did to push an idea? I never did put my book on the New York Times. Bestseller list was quite comical, how's that possible. Oh, they have rules which they don't disclose, but one of them apparently is well. If the book is published in counted and distributed in the United States, then it doesn't count, even though they've had books like that on the New York best seller list before- and I think ok well, is this bad or good? It's like well, it's bad, because to the degree that I you might want to be on the New York Times bestseller list, although I haven't been losing any sleep over your selling, I know how many books are selling yeah. It's basically being the best selling book in the world since January. You know it's going up and down to
I'm degree but right then so it should be the number one New York Times: bestselling yeah, so they they they they have their reasons. And but I look at that and I think well, you can only do that ten times until you're done like it's a fatal error, you have the gold standard measurement, your not measuring properly you're burning up your brand. You think well were the New York Times, so we can burn up. Our brand is no you can't Newsweek is gone Time magazine is a shallow sh is a shell of its former self like the big things Disip, here and they disappear when they get Krooked and ideologically rigid, and so that's what's happening at the New York Times and not with everyone there, but with plenty. But it will die faster than people think, but it's so confusing to me that it didn't used to be that and now it is uh they just responding to this new world, where you have to have clue.
Bait journalism- and you know we're struggling to find people to actual by physical newspapers, which is well it's a different thing, it's hard to say like because maybe see it's weird, because you don't have to resort to click bait, because these long form. Discussions are the antithesis of click bait right there are they struggling in terms of like how many people by their newspaper, oh absolutely, every newspaper newspaper he's in Canada went cap in hand to the federal government for subsidies about six months ago, because they're dying so fast, and so so Some of it is they're being supplanted by technology. That's a huge part of it, but as they they are supplanted they get more desperate. They publish more polar using stories that works in the short term to garner more views, but it alienates people from the Brandon Speeds, their demise classic death spiral of a big of a big organization.
And that's going to clean things out. Like mad, I mean I don't know where CNN is in the cable news rankings. Now our cable show rankings, but it keeps falling, but it's falling in the rankings, as cable itself disintegrates and eyes Why do you need cable tv right? No one needs cable tv, only people who have cable tv or the people who haven't figured out yet that you can replace it entirely online for like 110Th the price with much less hassle. But the irony is people want a location they can go to to find out what's going on in the world, and this is the one thing that they used to represent an you know. I mean, I don't think Fox NEWS is any better. I think you just have these ideological extremes left and right and I remember very clearly watching the election coverage before the election like leading up to the election. I would Fox NEWS, and then I go CNN. I just would go back and forth with them on my cable and I would just be laughing about what is really happening in the world, because I'm getting two different story:
I'm getting Russia and I'm getting Hillary's emails. Yes, is I'm! I don't know what the is, what what is happening, I'm getting grabbing and I'm getting a you know. Benghazi. You know I'm. This is what I'm getting and- and I don't understand like why this is obviously ideological. This call images look. It might be that as the technology is supplanted the Idia logical polarization increases, as the thing guys right there struggling for anyone to pay attention, and this is the way they have to do it to ensure- and I think, what's happening on the other side, which is the side you occupy say is that a new technology, that's long form that deals with many of those problems is emerging and it's going to emerge. Going to be victorious, but in the mean, might already be victorious in the meantime. Click! Yes, eighty stuff still exist in the digital world. Yeah, you know in the you're, getting a lot of the articles that are written about you. People are absorbing these articles, not from a physical form, getting it from from Digital yeah. Well,
Okay, so then the senses. Well, do you have fundamental trust in the judgment of your fellow man, let's my answer to that is yes, because although I've been pilloried to a great degree by the radical types in the commentary in in the classic journalists arm comments with regards to me on Youtube are fifty to one in my favor and and that's even the case when you logs put up videos about me, they're, designed to discredit me I sold a million and a half books. It's going to be published in forty countries and thousands of people coming to my lectures, and so I would say the attempts to discredit me aren't working soul and not I, I think, that's because that even like, even if you go to Youtube, you can see Jordan. Peter's and smashes leftist journalist, you know, as a click bait thing someone's taking a two minute clip from a video and the put it out in there using that clickbait headline to attract attention. It's like it does attract attention and not probably even
there's polarization, but I think that most people enough people, that's the prayer enough, be- are going for the long form, thorough discussion so that the sensible will will triumph. That's what I'm hoping for the set Sybil will triumph. No, I agree, and I think that is what's happening. I think that's why this fifty to one number exists is that the number one in that. Fifty, the fifty eight, the fifty people that are actually good understanding. What's going on and agreeing with you with versus the number one that are trying to willfully misrepresent you. They still exist in their loud and they're fighting to right, and this is one of things that people love to. Do they love to fight to be right, the set of examining their position, I'm wondering whether or not they are taking you out of context and misrepresenting your position as to the world willfully and doing so in order to paint a negative pick
review that does not actor accurately represent, who you are what you stand for? Yes, but by doing this they're just going virtue without any of the worker, also destroying their own credit. Yes! Well, that's the thing! This is what's devastating about us, like they're in there trying to win they're, killing themselves right well and and that's a good, that's a good motif for the entire conversation. It's like try our too hard to win you kill yourself. You were talking last night when we were when we were over dinner. You said that one of the most deadly things for a fighter to do is to overestimate his his own position you going to get our mayor abilities. Yes, have you overestimate your abilities? You you're you're in deep, deep trouble, because you're going to get a wake up, call and objectivity is the most critical aspects of development you have to be. You have to be objectively assessing your strength weaknesses at every by the way. Now it's brevard bravado right, I'm I'm trying to prove how much so, powerful and so powerful to Nego Shield, and that's why I was saying that the ego is the enemy we're talking about right side. We don't!
I want to get into this, because this is. I think this is a fascinating thing with you personally, that your diet You're on this carnivore diet, now, okay, so I want to preface that was something I am what a dietary experts. So I'm now speaking as an uninformed citizen- yes right it will. This is anecdotal evidence from human beings. Yes, that is dealt with auto immune issues, yet their whole life. Yes, you! I have done this for how long now I've been on a pure carnivore diet for about two months and a pretty. Very very low. Carb greens only modified carnivore diet for about a year so in the year and and and and the low carb diet for two years. So in the time that I've known you, I've known you for what two one slash two years now, so it's like yeah. When I first met you, you had much more weight on your body. You look different and that you were back then you're eating like the standard diet like normal,
yes, pasta, bread me in whatever you. Shifted over to only meat and greens, I saw you on like you, look fantastic, I'm like what are you doing me like, I, If I diet, I only eat meat and greens. I was like wow that's fast and I felt like okay, what doing is cutting out refined sugars and all these different things that are problematic, preservative all the bullshit processed foods and you're having extreme health benefit. I was like wow, that's really excellent! You showing great discipline. Then you decide take it to another place and cut out the greens yeah. I know what was the motivation for cutting out the green. Well. All of the motivation for this has been my experience with my daughter because she has an unbelievably serious autoimmune disease. I just talked over this one for the call. Well it's rich arthritis, but it does does way more to it than that, but the arthritis was the major set of symptoms. She had forty effect
joints and she had to have her hip replaced in ankle replaced when she was fifteen and sixteen, and so she basically hobbled boot around on two broken legs for two years and extreme agony. Now, it's just a tiny fraction of the of the whole set of problems. I just talked to her this morning. She's in Chicago looks like she has to have her ankle replacement replaced. So that's next on the horizon But but apart from that, she is doing so well now. It is absolutely beyond comprehension, so she's, she's she's, very trim. She had a baby but she's very trim she's down to about one hundred and eighteen pounds, she's about five foot, six she's, just glowing with health. All of her autoimmune system. Symptoms are gone all of them. And she was also seriously depressed like severely depressed way worse than you think she couldn't stay awake for more than about six hours without taking Ritalin and she was dying and hide a cousin. My cousin's day
She died when she was thirty from an associated autoimmune condition. So there's a fair bit of this in our family. It was bloody, bleak I'll, tell you and my wife always had a suspicion that this was dietary related. You know, and I well we did notice that when Makayla was young, if, if she ate oranges or strawberries, that should get a rash like to work, there and then, when she developed arthritis, if she ate oranges in particular, that would definitely cause a flare. It was the only thing we could see. The problem is is that, in order to identify a dietary component, the response has to be pretty quick after you eat the thing like if it's two days later, how hello. Are you going to figure that out? A lot of these responses appear to be delayed for four days and just a month, so good luck figuring that out, Anyways Michaela noticed about three years ago. No more than that now five years ago, she was at, can Cordia University and struggling with her with her illness and all the association Associated problems.
We notice that around exam time she was starting to develop real skin problems, and my cousin's daughter, who I mentioned, had really bad skin problems and wounds that wouldn't heal, and that was partly part of the process that eventually killed her and she thought it must be stress, and then she thought wait a second. I really changed my diet when I'm studying all I do is eat bagels. All I do is eat bread, sandwiches. She thought maybe it's the bread, so she cut out gluten first and it had a remarkable effect. Like really remark, effect and then she she went on a radical elimination, diet all the way down to nothing but chicken and broccoli, and then her symptoms started to drop off one by one like and like one of the things that happened. Is she started to wake up in the morning? She to be able to stay awake all day when you're, only staying awake for six hours with riddle and staying awake all day, that's like having a life and so a whole bunch of things improved their depression went away and I've had depression. Since I was thirteen prob
and very severe and I've treated at a variety of ways, some of them quite successfully, but it's been a constant battle in my father had it and his father had it so I'll, just rife. In my family and my wife has autoimmune problems in her. You say: depression define it oh or how would you define it? 'cause, that's uh. It's a blanket term yeah. Well, imagine imagine that you wake up and that you remember that all your family was killed in a horrible accident yesterday. You would feel that e all the things wrong. Yes, yes, just just Jackson. Worse than that one of the things Michaela told me: was she thought? Well, what's it like to be depressed? We imagine you have Morgan, you really love the dog and then the dog dies and then about three years ago our dog died, and that was Michaela Dog and she really liked that dog and she said that was yeah, but it's nowhere near as bad as being depressed, and I asked her to at one point when she was about
fifteen or sixteen, I said. Look you've got a choice, kid here's the choice. You can either have depression or arthritis which one I'll take the arthritis. Well, that was after she lost two joints, so it was no joke. It's no joke man. There isn't anything! No! I wouldn't say that I wouldn't say: there's nothing worse, 'cause. We This is a very deep hole right, but it's bad yeah people will prove you wrong right. Oh, yes, definitely worse versus a deep hole, anyways. Depression went away Things went away and like radically so what changed her from chicken and broccoli to carnivore? Well, she she kept it
mending into it, which she she got very sensitive to all sorts of foods. In the aftermath of that too, so this is why I wouldn't recommend that anybody does this casually, because we don't understand much about it, but the upshot was that what she kept she kept check. She kept experimenting and she started D, had things back and take the way, and sometimes when she added things the results were devastating. She was like done for a month, she'd the wrong thing done. For a month, all the symptoms came back. The depression came back. She thought that her whole dietary theory was wrong because it lasted so long sold. Stream, and so like it took her two years to figure out that really what she could eat was beef and greens, and then she figured out that she could only eat beef. So the greens themselves well looks or what happened. Ok, so two years so she said dad. You have tried this diet because you have a lot of the same symptoms as me. Now I didn't have arthritis, but I had a lot of the other symptoms and I thought oh Christ, ok, Michaela! I can try anything for a month. She said, try it for a month.
Thought, okay, whatever I can hang by my fingernails from the window sill for a month, it's like it's just not that big a deal, and so I indicated. I went on really low, carb diet. Ok, so this is what happened. I had gastric reflux disorder and I was snoring quite a lot. I stop snoring the first week. I thought what the hell that sub must be associated with weight loss 'cause I had gained some weight, I weight about two hundred and twelve pounds and I'm about six one and a half, so that was my maximum weight. I stop snoring, which was a great relief to Tammy that just quit and that's a big deal right. 'cause. If you snore, you have sleep apnea and then you don't sleep right. It's like not a good thing. Okay! Next I started waking up in the mornings. I'd never been able to wake up in the mornings. My huh new life I always had to stumble to the shower and then maybe I could wake up took me an hour and I felt terrible and so all of a sudden I woke up- and I was like oh look at that- I'm awake in the morning and clearheaded in and things aren't gloomy and horrible. It's like well he's not weird! Then I lost
seven pounds the first month. I thought seven pounds that's a lot in a month and I'd already gone for a whole year on a sugar free diet. I didn't lose any weight and I'd be exercise a sugar free, but did you cut out bread? And we don't know it was just no deserts? No sugar, no, and I thought that might do it to make any difference at all seven pounds. Well, then, then, I lost seven pounds the next month. Then I lost seven pounds next month. I lost seven pounds every month for seven months, like I did throw away all my clothes. I went back to the same wait that I was when I was twenty six and my psoriasis disappeared and I floaters in my right eye and they cleared up and then the first thing that went away from me. I would still having a bitch of a time with mood regulation that suck, because when I changed my diet, I wouldn't respond to antidepressants properly anymore. They weren't working, and so, although I was getting better physically on a variety of ways like radical ways, I was really having bitch of a time regulating my mood and I was having sporadic really negative reactions to food. When I ate something I shouldn't so that took about a year and a half to
drop- and I was still really anxious in the morning up to three months ago like horribly and then it would get better all day. People said well you're under a lot of stress and I thought yeah yeah I've been under a lot of stress for like ten years. It's a lot, but it wasn't any more stressful than helping my daughter deal with her illness. That's for sure that no! This is something different and she said to me quit eating greens. I thought really Jesus Mchale, I'm eating cucumbers, lettuce, broccoli and chicken and beef. It's like. I have to cut out the God. Damn greens like try it for a month within a week. I was twenty five percent, s anxious in the morning within two weeks: seventy five percent and I've been better every single day, I'm better. Now, probably that I've ever been in my life and I haven't been taking anti depressants for a whole year, so I then know what and I weigh one hundred and sixty two pounds like I've. No, I'm I'm and I've actually gained musculature. I've been doing some work
hang out, but not a lot, and so I can sleep six hours a night, no problem I wake up in the morning, I'm awake. If I take a fifteen minute nap that used to take me an hour to recover from that's gone. Here's the coolest thing: I've had gum disease, these, since I was twenty five that's been serious enough to have. I've had to have minor surgical intervention scraping and that sort of thing to keep it at bay. It's gone. I checked with my dentist before this last tour. No influence and that's associate with heart disease by the wake coming from Asian and gingivitis, it's a good risk factor for heart disease. It means the systemic inflammation is gone and it's not supposed to happen. You're not supposed to recover from gingivitis. My gums are in perfect shape. It's like what the hell. So here's what happened. I lost fifty pounds. Like that's a lot right, I'm nowhere near as hungry as I used to be my appetite, probably formed by seventy percent. I don't get blood sugar, dysregulation problems. I need way less sleep I get up in the morning,
I'm fine, I'm not anxious and not depressed. I don't have psoriasis My legs were numb on the sides. That's gone, I'm certainly intellectually at my best at the moment, which is a great relief especially doing this tour. Depression is gone. I'm stronger. I can swim better and my gum disease is gone. What the hell and you've done, you've done, no blood work, so you don't know what your lip lip profile is or no I'll get that done again. When I go back to take any vitamins, no, no. I eat beef and salt and water. That's it and I never cheat not even a little bit. No, not soda, no wine, I drink club soda, still water well You know when you're down to that level, though it's not worth Joe there's
club soda, which is really bubbly, there's Perrier, which is sort of bubbly, there's flat water and there's hot water. So there is a zero I think should start to, because it is crazy. Well, we ate last night and I ate what you ate just we both had that giant, Tomahawk yeah. I had one though yeah I'm curious about this very curious and I think about you might try it, but I eat a lot of vegetables, but I don't have any problems like hell. Problem, hey man like I'm, not disclaimer number two I am not recommending this to anyone. However, I have had. However, I had many many people come up to me on the tour and say: look I've been. Calling your daughter's blog and I've lost like a hundred pounds. I think what you lost a hundred pounds, hundred pounds in six months I talked to a woman. Yesterday she lost fifteen pounds in one month. She was seventy like like this is here's. Why is everyone fat and stupid? That's
question man because it's new Is it something? Yes, it is it's new and it's not sedentary lifestyle. That hypothesis doesn't seem to hold water. Something wrong with the way we're eating and what's wrong. Is that we're eating way too many carbohydrates? I think, but remember you have shift the elimination of most carbohydrates has made a big shift in my life, and I do cheat occasionally with bread, occasionally with pasta. I will I will go off with scream things on those lines, but most What's the time I'm just eating meat and vegetables most of the time and I have a cheat day like you know once a week or something like that, especially if I go to dinner I'll have a little pasta and it doesn't seem to messed me up too bad, but I do feel shitty after I do it. It's like a simple mouth pleasure allowing myself to feel tired. After yeah, that's a big one. Man yeah, but like yeah like well really
my concern about six hours of sleep a night. So interesting too. I can't believe I can wake up in the morning. That's never happened to me in my whole life and when I was a kid one thousand three hundred and twelve had a bitch of a time waking up in the morning. It was just brutal. I just that's how it was. This is what I mean again: I'm not a nutritionist either, but what's fat sing to me, is: I haven't heard any negative stories about people doing this, We have a negative story: okay, okay, one of the things that both Mchale and I noticed was that when we restricted our diet and then a something we weren't supposed to the reaction to eating. What we weren't supposed to was absolutely catastrophic. What is Joe, would you switch to? Would you eat rather arm? Well, the worst response, I think, we're allergic to soar, allergic whatever the hell. This is having an inch ma'am Fleming to response to something called sulfites, and we had some apple cider that had sulfites in it, and that was really not good. Like I was done for a month. That was the first time I
or to SAM Harris. You were done for a month. Yeah took me out for a month. It was awful real, yeah yeah, so I would say hello and was so. This is right before this whole truth, conversation with SAM Harris had got during the mud during during you know. He was just. I think. The day I talked to SAM was like the worst day of my life, not because of talking to SAM, but it was just. Physical Jesus, I was so dead, but I didn't want to not do it. I was all cider like, but what was its own rights and what was he doing it? It it produced. An overwhelming sense of the pending doom and I seriously been overwhelming, like there's no way, I could have lived like that. If that would have lasted for the Michaela New by that point, that would probably only last a month- and I was like a month- yeah man, fucking cider, I didn't sleep that that month I didn't sleep for twenty five days, I didn't want it at all. I didn't sleep at all for twenty five days. Well, that all tell you it's possible. You lay in bed frozen in something approximating. Error for eight hours and then you get up. Oh my god.
Not in this is from fucking cider from some. What we thought yeah I mean look again, I don't What the hell I'm talking about! This is all a mystery to me. The fact that my daughter was so sick. See the one thing that I did know 'cause. I scoured the literature on arthritis when she was a kid, the scientific literature and 'cause. We were interested in the dietary connection, and the only thing I and find that was reliable was that if people with arthritis fasted their symptoms reliably went away now, it's actually well documented finding. But then, if they started to eat and yeah, and then there was symptoms came back and I thought well what the hell does it not matter what they eat? They can't be reactive to everything it's like no, but they can be reactive to all, most everything and the difference between everything in almost everything, that's a big difference and so Mchale seems to be maybe me too and Tammy's on the same diet, because she has autoimmune problems on her side of the family, so Makayla seem to inherit all of them. Your skin looks better
Jesus, Joe I'm way better. Here yeah you look like more vibrant. It's strange use. Thank you dear you're. Welcome. But my point is you're saying that there is a there is problems with his right, but that doesn't seem to be a problem with the diets user problem with deviating from the direct. Your body comes a custom with well. One of the hypothesis that we've been through suing and there's some justification for this in the scientific literature. Is that the reason that you lay on layers of fat is because the fat acts as a buffer between you and the toxic things that you're eating ' 'cause fat is actually an organ. It has functions other than merely the storage of of calories, and maybe, when you strip out that protect, layer, then you're more sensitive to what you shouldn't be eating. This is all speculative hypothesis right or maybe you sensitize yourself by removing it from your constant dieting. I don't bloody well know. Well, I would think it would be much more likely that, because you think about people who are alcoholics, they develop a tolerance to alcohol. You get off of that and then you have a drink and you're tall
scissor shot and then you immediately have an adverse reaction to the alcohol same thing with marijuana when people do, all the time your body becomes tolerant. Well, I think I think that the layering of fat on might be part of the tolerance mechanism. So it's not merely a matter of caloric intake. It's a matter of of toxic caloric intake buffered by whatever it is that fat is doing as a neuro, endocrine organ, but again, like I said I said I'm out of my depth here, but you know the whole everyone's out of their depth, the God Damn Food pyramid was my made by the Department of Agriculture, not the Department of Health. It wasn't predicated on any scientific studies whatsoever. We should we should be eating massive quantities of corn syrup. We we way too many carbohydrates, Michaela posted a paper the other day, a doctor as successfully treated type one diabetes with a carnivore diet, type one, not type two. So that's bloody impressive!
yeah, it's the it's very curious to me because of who you're talking about the one adverse reaction, which is when you deviated from the diet yeah, but I'm talking about is when I read people's accounts of trying this diet and It's almost universally positive yeah. I know but again that well, it's probably anecdote right. I mean I'm not sure, and it's the same with the stories that I'm collecting as I'm touring and you know, people lots of people come up to me and said: look I lost forty five pounds. The last three months, I think yeah. I think what what it's shocking to me. I think. Well, what do you make of that so? Well, I can't believe it well. Who can all I could we believe it fifty pounds. It's like. First of all, I didn't know. I had fifty to lose. You know I thought I was maybe twenty pounds heavier than I should've been should've, been one hundred and eighty five. Something like that. I guess that's, twenty five to thirty pounds. That was the MAC,
some so no, I lost I'm at one hundred and sixty two and I was at two hundred and twelve. So what's that five thousand and fifty pounds has a lot of weight Jesus, I threw I draw all my clothes away. I can't believe it what I saw: Yanni nine. It was like you're, so slim like yours, your stomach is completely flat in in in this is not a lean mean fighting yeah man and you're, not a an exercise fanatic. It's not like you're starving yourself. It's not like you're going on. No, I think five, that's another thing. I should say to people. If you want to try a diet like this, you read enough meat and fat, so you're, not hungry. Okay, you can't get hungry you're, not eating enough, if you're hungry and if you're hungry you're going to cheat and it's going to drive you stark raving mad, the other thing that was really cool. It's like I really like sweets like I've kind of lived on, peanut butter, sandwiches and chocolate milk, not not really, but that was my goal to food. You know, both of which were terrible for me, but Tom after I stop eating carbohydrates for a month the card will
cravings went away. You know last night we were out for dinner, somebody ordered bread, pudding and I bloody love bread, pudding with caramel and and and ice cream, so it was sitting there and I could smell it night. You know I thought I could go all fantastic, Mr Fox, on that bread, pudding and just tear it down in about fifteen seconds, but it wasn't. It wasn't as intense as a craving for a cigarette if you're next ex smoker it was like, would be really nice to eat that. But, like my appetite declined by about seventy five percent and that's been permanent, that's so there's uh, everything for you. I eat way less and now I'm not as hungry. Ok! Well, how does that make cents? Were you not eating way, less seating way, less thing yeah, because you had a yeah, thirty ounce steak last night? Yes, yes, I'm I'm, I'm doing my best not to be hungry, although it didn't look like it was thirty and Knowles. No! No! This small, thirty of the state I think it starts out thirty ounces before they cook it right loses a considerable right, very fatty right,
but that's the other thing too. You must have to get a lot of fat yeah. Well, I eat fatty cuts of steak. Yeah Michaela, is buying fat directly from the butcher store and we cook that up cut it into small pieces and fried up till it's crispy. It's actually quite delicious. It's not bread pudding with ice cream, but it's not funny, it's so ridiculous! I want! I want your blood profile. I want to find out what's going on with you, because one of the big misconceptions comes to cholesterol and saturated fat, and food is that if you eat dietary cholesterol, that effects your boy, the Lester all levels. It's not it's a sue for common misconception. Well, those so the thing about clinical studies with Dieter virtually impossible to conduct. Could you just can't you can't conduct a proper randomly distributed? Controlled experiment is too hard. So a lot of what we're trying to do is pull out information from core
lesions right. He can't do it. What is one of the real problems with correlating meet with cancer and diabetes, and all these different diseases is because people eating a bunch of with that MO yeah. They have different lifestyle profile. Sure like this just endless numbers of confounding variables. Yeah, I only need need one confounding variable. That's that's relevant to screw up the study. You can't get that information with correlational studies. We try because it's impossible to do the studies, but how many people are incredulous when there, how many people, when they're hearing about this everybody- everybody well or not, but you know you're interested in this sort of thing, but they should be incredulous like when people make absurd claims is like, oh well, I had fifty health problems and I stopped eating everything but meat and they went away. It's like, oh sure, it's like yeah Well, wasn't you dying so yeah and I see the results and I know it's an anecdote. I bloody well understand that and I'm highly skeptical about all of this, but I'm telling you so that's why I'm telling you what happened to me and what happened to my daughter and also what happened to my wife,
because she's Tammy was always in good shape and she's exercised a lot and she reduced to the to the pure carnivore died about a month ago. She lost like twelve pounds. She was already slim she's back to the same way. She was when she was twenty one she's she's, like fifty eight. You know she doesn't look fifty eight. I can tell you that, so it's really fascinating. It's really fast, because I just as a person who studied diet for many years, I would assume that you need five new. Green. So I would assume: do you need vitamin supplement, like vitamin c, for example, it turns out. If you don't eat carbohydrates, you don't need vitamin c ha who would've this does work. I don't I don't remember Makayla outlined a paper for me, vitamin c is necessary for carbohydrate metabolism, but if don't if again, remember everyone listening. I am not an expert in this field right so, but
I want you to get your blood tested, because I think, if be pretty funny, if it was in good shape yeah, it would be I'm in a red like to find out what your nutrient levels are and where they're coming yeah, I mean what what hi I'm getting a little getting getting a little cramping in my toes from time to time, so I'm not sure about potassium or magnesium. That's now possibility, That's how supplement very which is why I'm concerned about like and also minerals, you know and certain minerals, you're getting from vegetables that you're probably not getting yep. Well, this is all Look, it seems are hard to supplement that stuff, though colloidal minerals, you know, there's some mineral pills you could take plenty of water are pedals around people who basically lived on meat. You know the any. Did the mess. I basically did yeah there's there's some supplementation, but not a lot yeah and apparently, if you do a carnivore dot, you're supposed to eat more organ meat- and I do some of that- but not a lot, but I can tell you like arm armament. Well, look. I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for
using positive results. Yeah, it's not like it's fun run for a well. It makes you a soul. Pariah, like let's invite the petersons over now they don't eat anything all. We have other friends so that's how it works. It's not malevolence right, it's just if you're a pain. No one invites you out. So so I'm a social pain in the deal, logical pain and now I'm a nutritional paid because, like I know Fred, how difficult is it when you're trying to get breakfast like? What do you do when you well lots of times when we're traveling, we cook, so we usually stay in places where you can cook? Okay, but most places you can get a steak, and so that's mostly what we do been traveling in a motorhome, and so we've been cooking in the motorhome and so not carry beef jerky with me, which we make so it's crazy you make your own beef jerky. Well, it's easy. We have a dehydrator and you just basically put salt on it, throw in the dehydrator so that works pretty. Well, you
anticipate continuing this. Well, I never caught for eh, there's a long time. I'd like to be able to eat more things, but I'm going to experiment with that very very, very, very, very cautiously. I'm going to add mushrooms next, because maybe I could eat them, well. This is why I'm asking there's positive benefits that a lot of people achieve an experience when they switch the vegan diet realm of things. It is, as you get off, of the standard american diet with lots of refined sugars and lot of preservatives and bullshit, and then you find positive benefits. Chris Kresser is gone into depth about this, but then over time the nutritional deficiencies in the start to wear on your health and I'm wondering well and then, who knows, experience certainly possible, while certainly eventually this diet will kill me know life well, well, you're right,
biology. Well, yes, and less so wouldn't mind to intervene. It might be that, for some people of of a vegan diet is a vegan diet. Is it preferable? Well, sir, are to a standard american diet for sure to a standard american diet, but also there's so much biological variability yeah. You know the things that bob there's some people don't bother other people at all, that's something we got to take in consideration, yeah! Well, that's why the one universal! As for my experience now, but but this is what's happened to me- and this is what's happened to my wife and my daughter, soul and all of its being well with makayla- it's it's miraculous. I can I believe the last time I saw it made me cry. I've never seen her. Look like that. She looks so good she so and all of our other joints are not experiencing any problem and she's, taking no immunomodulators at all nor medication, none and she was,
for Jesus. Yes, more medication and you shake a stick at Methotrexate, which is basically a the use it to treat cancer itself itself was: what's the cancer treating drugs called whatever? I don't remember at the moment. She was on Enbrel, which really really helped but but later open to bacterial infection, so she always had pneumonia in the fall all, but it really helped and then heavy doses of antidepressants and Ritalin and and how long she's been on this carnivore diet, whole God, she's only been eating. Meat is going to be at least six to eight months now, while and does she get blood work done our yep and her blood work. I won't comment on that. I don't know the details of her blood work, so I don't know fascinating. I'm curious, I'm I'm I'm considering trying it for awhile. The problem is I ate so much game me and what is not found get some fat yeah
the trick there tried for months, see what happens you, what the hell a month. You know just a month, yeah no months not hard, yeah, interesting. Alright, let's wrap this up already did three hours, it's already two hundred and twenty believe it or not crazy trace, and it's always a pleasure, Great one more thing I want to bring up for how weird is this whole association to you 'cause, it's weird to me: Eidw yeah, oh, I DW just just that, of course intellectual dark web hell. It is it's like I've been trying to puzzle it out. I mean I think, it is, is a loose collection of early adopters of a revolutionary technology. That's what it looks like to me and we found each other 'cause we're all doing the same thing, but it's also a bunch of people that are honest, intellectually honest about their and and not maybe don't even disagree, don't even agree on file yeah. Well, definitely but honest about perception well and also, I think, interested in long form, discussion, yeah, right and and
able to engage in it, because otherwise we wouldn't be having the relative success that we're having in the in the in the milieu You know and it got a name and that's kind of interesting and that's Eric though yeah that's right Syracuse. She loves it. Oh yeah. He certainly give loves all this playing with five versus spice. Definitely definitely, and he denies that he loves it, which is which most interesting about. I love to rib him yeah. When it's got this funny conspiratorial element there, that's sort of true and sort of mostly dramatic and LISA mathematician he's always looking for patterns in codes yeah. I don't know what to make. If it I mean thing
get a name, and then you think well. Why did that get named and well someone named it but yeah, but the name stuck, so it seemed apropos to some degree and well. What do we have in common? Most of us are entrepreneurial. Most of us have our own platform, so we can speak in dependently. Most of us are interested in long form. Philosophical discussions primarily not political but bordering on political, well, bands, more political office he's the most yeah but he's also very sophisticated political commentator. So he borders on both the philosophical and the religious right so and then we're all the newly new. The doctors of this new technology, and so that's enough to put us in a group and then well. It turns out that we've all been talking to each other, but part of the reason for that is well we're all doing the same thing on the net. So it's not surprising that we're talking to each other, so I always go for the simple explanations. First, you know it's not a movement exactly what it is is the manifestation of a new technology
and then well. Do we have anything in common, that's worth discussing. That would make this a viable group. Let's say, and the answer to that is, I don't know. You know I've been touring with Ruben, that's been good, it's been good to have a comedian along and he's all a good interviewer, he does the queue in a is with me and it's nice to have some levity in the mix, because the conversations over the discussions with the audience are very serious. Although I can crack a joke and op. I can't tell the look, but if something funny cursed to be, I can say it and yeah. Sometimes it's funny about something you know when we've been we've been discussed, being a fair bit and I had good conversations with Shapiro and Harris for that matter. So there is lots of interplay between us, but I think that's more because we we inhabit the same technological space more than the same ideological space. Apart from the fact that we are actually interested in dialogue. Fundamentally so we'll see I mean I'm watching it
with curiosity, are you apprehensive? Do you think this is sure potential downsides? So there's lots of downsides to it sure there's lots of downsides, First of all, you know, most of us are on an individual individualistic path. I'm not not really much of a group guy. You know. So am I in this group it's like. Well, I'm pleased to be associated with you guys, that's for sure, but I don't really know what it would mean or if it should mean anything or if it will screw up what I'm doing or if it I don't know anything about it, but mostly I'm curious. It's like huh. This is a group. I thought this is the not pack, I thought when I walked into the restaurant. Less 'cause we were out last night was Ben Shapiro, SAM Harris, Eric Weinstein, Dave, Ruben, Joe Rogan, and me right and my wife, Tammy and so we're all walking in there and I thought well. This is kind of like being in the rat pack in the 1950s. I thought. Well, I know maybe it isn't, but that's what came to mind. So I thought that's funny and it's it's kind,
cool, and it's interesting, it's edgy and all of that. But I'm not not taking it seriously I'm not also not you know, I'm not taking it not seriously either, but I'm just watching them watching every the interact. It is very motley crew of people. It is so and they very different and so. But it was very enjoyable, so why did you think it was enjoyable, that's good converse everyone that was in that group is been on. My podcast or I've been on theirs and it you know it's a fun group of really honest interesting people that very peculiar people, specially Eric he's listening right now, it's time for the weather. I love that guy I mean they're all it's there, everyone's different, but everyone's also unique and they'll bring a lot to the table. That's what's interesting about it, yeah the the weird collection yep, you know, I'm I don't know what to think of it like when
Eric called me up about the whole New York Times thing like what are you talking about right like we're having yet in that, and you know that a. Why do you do that? What I do, what what did you be? part of the New York Times article I barely was. I just sort couple questions. Could I took a picture of you got a picture yeah they're going to take a picture. I didn't They should have taken a picture of. I was dressed, it's going on stage at the comedy, store, didn't wear anything any differently the right to make a big deal to MIKE. Look, I'm anytime this you want to get for me this. What I'm wearing yeah we. We did it on the parking lot above the comedy store and the rain I go, we're done, I gotta go. I got to go and can be soaking wet. You know and and then go on stage, and that was it in it was just okay, so your take on it. Is that it's what interests your take on? It is that's interesting! Yes! Well! This is the. This is probably another thing that unites doubt group of people. Everyone in that group
people is likely going to get in trouble because they far too many things interesting right in straight openness, yeah, that's another thing that unites all of us, yeah, yeah and so, and you know, curiosity killed the cat and soul Devore, not cat true curiosity also built the pyramids it did it did it and then saved a lot of caps too. Let's end it with alright, alright, Jordan, most Jordan, my friend, she always would see again and see you yeah yeah. That's it folks, see you soon, hello! That was a fun show right. I enjoyed it. Thank you sponsors. Thank you to blue apron, get your first three meals for free when you go go to Blueapron dot com, forward. Slash Rogan! Go there check out this this menu and get your first three meals for free at Blueapron, dot com forward, slash Rogan Blue Apron a better way
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Transcript generated on 2019-10-13.