Dom D’Agostino, Ph.D., is an assistant professor in the Department of Molecular Pharmacology and Physiology at the University of South Florida Morsani College of Medicine, and a senior research scientist at the Institute for Human and Machine Cognition (IHMC). Dr. Layne Norton is a renowned prep/physique coach and pro-natural bodybuilder/powerlifter with a PhD in Nutritional Sciences.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hey. Ladies and gentlemen, how's things this episode, so the podcast is brought to you by athletic greens. Athletic. Greens is a supplement that I take and I carry with me on the road it's one of the best all in one Whole food supplements, it's the most complete whole food supplement developed over ten years by There's nutritionists and natural paths available with seventy five whole food source ingredients got you covered in five key areas of health and one scoop as the antioxidant Occident, equivalent of twelve servings of fruits and vegetables. It doesn't taste like shit, it's great to take with you to because they have these little packs travel packs. Of those things are throwing my bag. I have with me all the time, as you know travel at all, it's very difficult to get health. You know your nutrition completely covered when you're on the road? This is a good way for me to supplement, make sure I cover my bases athletic,
this replaces the fistful of supplements that you might be taking now an ads, the critical nutritional support that you need. And you know I never know what's going to come up during my day, so I do know that when I carry one of those travel packs with me in particular, or if I just take a scoop of the stuff When I wake up in the morning. I know I got my bases covered, ask let it greens. Ladies and gentlemen, it's a fantastic service. It's a fantastic product, and this is dear ole deal? What can I say, deal a special deal for listeners they're, giving away twenty travel packs, valued at ninety nine dollars with your first purchas, so getting to a daily routine with athletic greens, and it really will be one of the best things you can do for your health and success. I can't stress this enough: athletic greens headed head over to athletic greens, dot com forward, Slash, Rogan and clean your special offer. Today. That's athletic greens,
dot com forward. Slash Rogan do not miss this. We are also brought to you by policy genius. Ladies and gentlemen, September is NASH. Life insurance awareness month. If you don't have life insurance, let me tell you something: that's a stress! That's a thing in a lot of people. Put it off right, like Fuckin' of the time for this. Forty percent of people don't have it, but getting life insurance doesn't need to be difficult or expensive and right now, prices are the lowest. Been in twenty years and pop See genius has made it easier than ever to get covered. Policy. Genius is the easiest way to get life insurance online. In just two minutes you can compare quotes from the top insurers to find the best policy for you and when you compare quotes you save money. It's that simple policy, geniuses, over four million people shop for insurance and placed over twenty one dollars in coverage, and they don't just make life insurance easy. They also compare Disha
well, the insurance, renters insurance health insurance. If you care about it, they cover it. Ladies Gentlemen, why around so, if you're, looking for a good reason to buy life insurance, here's three, it's national life, insurance awareness prices are at a twenty year. Low and policy genius makes it easy to get the right policy for you, go to policygenius dot com get quotes applying minutes and you do the whole thing on your phone right now come on and toss genius the easy way, need to compare and buy life insurance. Ladies and gentlemen, and last but not least, we are brought to you by Mvmt Watches movement. Watches are you've heard me talk about this company many times before they make.
Badah watches they've sold almost two million watches in one hundred and sixty countries worldwide an they did it by cutting out the retail middleman. So they give you a very sleek. Looking beautiful minimalist styled watch super high quality at a very low price. They started just ninety five dollars at a department store you're. Looking at a four two five hundred dollars watch no bulshit the real high quality, they look, cool they've, got great designs and they were started by a couple of fucking kids crowd funding through their living room in the past year, they've not only introduced a ton of new watch collections for both men and women, but now they've expanded sunglasses and fashion forward bracelets for her like say, bracelets for her who's. Her, who is this bitch for women, I should say,
talk about you know like style, and they think they just so they just nailed it. It's a sleek. Looking watch and they've got a bunch of really cool designs and again they I just ninety five dollars, my favorite one, I think cause one hundred and forty dollars. You wouldn't believe it. If you saw it, you would say that's a that's. A five hundred dollars watch classic design, quality construction and you can get fifteen percent off today with free shipping and free returns by going to mvmt dot com. Slash. Rogan C Y movement keeps growing a check out their expanding collection, go to m V, M T, dot, com, Slash Rogan and join the movement. Alright folks, we've been having these debates and These discussions about diet yesterday was a discussion between vegans and people consume meat between Chris Kresser and Doctor, Joel Kahn, and today
we're doing it between Lane Norton and DOM to Augustine two scientists who actually agree about a lot of things, but we're gonna talk about high carb versus low carb, the pros and cons of ketogenic diets just sort of get. He is x is difficult when one experts on they say things and other experts are listening and, like I disagree well, I want to just get people together in the room and just fucking thing. This out, and it's not easy to figure out this is it's dependant alot on the individual on your own biological needs your lifestyle, how much enerji expand during the day so many variables, but I think the more we do of these kind of podcasts. In the more information we get out there, the more the surf Area of ignorance gets sort of cleaned up the more more you get illuminated as too
it's necessary and not necessary and what's beneficial and not beneficial and diet and health? It's you know, I mean without it you fucked right. I agree. Ok without any further delays in Jenin. Please welcome Lane Norton and DOM D Augustine the Joe Rogan experience and we're live the gentleman thanks for being here. She did it let everybody know who you are lane I'm a meathead who, like science, got no body building when I was young and then the bs in Biochemistry Phd in science kept lifting, did Clifton sing. One two national championships got silver medal at worlds set of then world record, and it also bodybuilding in one to natural are there. She have natural bodybuilding, believe it or not, and
what the time just you know when I first got into it magazine said one thing and even in the same magazine they have an article one month next month. That would contradict it, and so I was like I'm just going to and figure the shit out for myself, so which is the place that a lot of people listening or at right now, yeah, it's it's tough because kind of like who do you trust, because not everybody has the time or the energy to go and degree in this stuff. So, but that was me kind of got down the rabbit hole of all right. Let's try and figure this new Shin stuff out and the more. I learn the more I realized I didn't know, but yeah this became a passion for me to this day. I'm still very, I love this stuff. This is what gets me up gets me going well guys like you, very important guys, who actually trained very hard and really under in the science. This is because easily one or the other yeah absolutely yeah, and I like what I was doing it. I graduate my phd in two thousand ten.
When we started, we actually both knew each other from the bodybuilding dot com message boards, so it back before social media train together back in two thousand. Six or seven an experimental biology. So this big big symposium every year for science, geeks and we were both going to it and we out of each other on the forums, and we wouldn't train together and he's a beast and yeah we really hit it off and we've been friends since then So for anyone who's. Looking for a fight, sorry we're probably going to be pretty friendly. Well, it's going to be a conversation that we don't need to have a fight and Amaya bid on the podcast before, but for people didn't listen to that. One please tell who you are what you do yeah I'm keep this sucker yeah sure I will go getting back. I majored in nutrition actually is an undergrad but didn't actually see a career in it. That much so I went into neuroscience. The net 90s was a decade of the brain.
And my my you know formal training as a nurse science and got steered towards basically changing the narrow pharmacology of the brain with nutrition and that's what the key to Jenna Diet does, and it has tremendous benefits. I think for military personnel, witches and funded by the Office of Naval Research and the Department of Defense to develop Keygen strategies to enhance readiness, resilience and and performance and safety and military personnel, and What is why specifically does the key to Genic died, help military people- I know there's thing with Navy seals with preventing adolescent, yeah, yeah, so central nervous system, oxygen, toxicity, a limitation of that is or limitation names. He'll diving is aktion toxicity seizures and in
the epileptic drugs are not really a viable option because they can other side effects. They can decrease cognitive. You know resilience physical resilience, as he can to drink strategy, is something that's being studied now from a basic science mechanistic perspective to animal work to now human studies. So it's not. You know out in the field, old yet, but some guys are actually doing it, and I study the science of that and when people have understand what we're saying for some folks who have epilepsy the key Jenny it has been shown to stop seizures, absolutely go: Google, the Charlie Foundation! So that's how I actually got Linkedin. And actually I met a natural drug free bodybuilder. His name was MIKE dancer and he had severe terminal epilepsy. Google MIKE dancer, ketogenic diet and you'll find an amazing story about a guy who used nutrition to manage his epilepsy when drugs failed and he used it to prep and win bodybuilding shows and compete in Bodybuilding and the rebreathers
sometimes cause seizures with some of the soldiers they can so, for example, just fifty p to see water using a closed circuit. Rebreather, like a dragger rebreather at fifty to see water, your part potential for getting option Texas. The seizures can occur in just ten minutes. So that's a little bit of time. That's not very deep! So there's no way to predict that and there's no way as of now to prevent that. So we study physiological biomarkers that could warn people of an impending seizure and we also developed a counter measures to mitigate oxygen toxicity seizures. I focus mostly on drugs and then a pharmacology and visit Physiology Department, but I realized that people with epilepsy, the kids drink diet was more effective than drugs. So I got steered into you know nutrition, which was my undergrad and
then that kicked off about ten years ago and I've just been deep into probably a dozen or more different applications of nutritional, ketosis, fossum and laying up in pain attention to online for a long time. One of the things they do a great job with is just calling bullshit on I mean you, love call bulshit clearly, but Several people are overstating claims or people get ridiculous, and I think this is one of things, that is a problem with any diet where people get really enthusiastic about it. That becomes an ideology whether it's the ketogenic diet It or the carnivore, dieter or them you know, fill in the blanks, vegan diet, people decide. This is the end, all be all it's going to cure. Answer, make you smarter to dicks going to grow a foot. All these things are going to happen and you do a great job of calling bullshit on that kind of stuff yeah. I mean I I'm not anti Keto, I'm not anti vegan, I'm anti bullshit and one
problems we have is nutrition is replacing religion for a lot of people. So you find something that you identify with, and then people start to try to say because they identify with that movement or like, for example, vegans that in a fight with many of them protection of animals, not my job to judge there at six on that sort of thing. But then they kind of try to backtrack, to find the science to support them as well, and they pick and This is guilty of all groups. This is also a lot of carnivore diet. Whatever have you if it has the word diet the results out there who are going after it, and I will stick up for I've, stuck up at a scientific conference for the key to Jenna you were we were having a round table about something different and somebody to what we know that the kid in a diet impairs exercise performance in endurance athletes must, I don't think, that's necessarily true of you know it's the it's pretty and ambivalent to
ambiguous as to whether or not it does it seems to be kind of individual but the whole on the average. It doesn't seem to impair exercise performance. So it's kind of what you like, but when have people who you know like, like a tells says: well calories, don't matter, it's all carbohydrates, that sort of the carbohydrate insulin model will be city I mean. Did the research you're able to do lot of handwaving about insulin, and learn so much fat when you're on a high fat diet, which is true by the way you you but a lot of fat. But what they don't talk about is that it's it's overall fat balance. How much fat you store versus how In fact, you burn and when you're on a high fat diet, you store a lot of fat. You also burn a lot of fat. The overall caloric balance is what determines where you will have net storage or net deposition the same thing for carb diet as well. You know this idea that with high insulin it just completely shuts down all fat burning everywhere, but
just not true? Now, if you have high carbohydrate, you will burn less fat, but you storing less fat as well and again, the net caloric balance is going to be. What determines how much you store because You don't really store carbohydrates, fat for most people. They did a study, overfeeding women, where they overfed them fifty percent above their caloric maintenance, and they found that of two hundred eighty two grams of fat. They store during a day in adipose, only four grams came from carbohydrate two hundred. Seventy eight came from fat suit glucose. What about for toes so fructose causes? We think you know non alcoholic fatty, liver disease, so that could be. You know that that's a de Novo denoble weapon Genesis is higher with fructose and your your think about people consuming it and liquid drinks. A hundred to two anagram today, which is not uncommon even for my wife, not uncommon. So fructose does your
have a little bit of different hepatic metabolism, but I was actually across the hall from a professor, was doing a lot of the research on on for dose and obesity and and fatty, liver disease and he came to the conclusion that if you overfeed fructose Anet, the caloric. Sir calories are and you're over feeding for does. Then you can have some walkie stuff start to go on relative to other macros Diadochi. That is try to keep this right next to your face. Sorry got when she says so powerful. I talked about it a lot, it's good. So, if you're, if you're doing that, if you're creating that Clarke Surplus, why you find is when you're in net storage, when you're driving more nutrients into adipose and sometimes liver depending on metabolism, but it takes it takes a lot of for to do that and a cooler surplus
you start to create a lot of walkie stuff going on the mitochondria starts to become dysfunctional, and you know people make a big deal about. Oh well, you have. We have claimed now that everything causes obesity and type two diabetes for first, it was fats, then cover nitrates and there's actually professors out there. Who actually will claim that protein gives you diabetes. I stopped. I mean the mitochondria becomes dysfunctional. How does the mitochondrial? How does that happen? Okay, so I'm going to state for everybody that I'm going out on a limb. This is my opinion. Ok, if you look at the research obesity and diabetes. What what happens? Is you have everything start to elevate in the bloodstream if you measure like there was a professor who thought that branched chain amino acids were causing obesity because they were elevated blood, the bloodstream, our during type two diabetes, yeah branched chain amino acids are elevated, so fatty acids
tricyclics rides so is glucose. So is it really those things causing it? Or is it possible that when you are overfeeding relative to what you burn relative to that turnover, that must not a country is start to become dysfunctional, probably a lot due to an activity, and the the mitochondria is, as we called the powerhouse of the cell, you probably learned in school biology or whatever they taught it to you, as that is where everything fluxes through. So that is where you creating a t p. That's where you're burning through lipids carbohydrates, that sort of thing, if that becomes dysfunctional and you're, not getting enough flux enough pull through that mitochondria. What happens? Is you start to back up every part of Mattel?
some so all the metabolic by products, almost all of them inhibit everything within the cell. There's a metabolomics signature for that and and and be phenomenon. If you want to call it that would be elevated, branched chain amino acids because consequence of that and then some people yeah. So these things start these by products the metabolic by products, because you're not flexing and through the cell, they start accumulating within the cell and start to inhibit the Krebs cycle. Glycolysis, and so everything starts backing up to the point where you also start inhibiting the insulin receptor and now you have glucose fatty acids and amino acids also backing up to the point where they to overspill into the bloodstream, and you see these this accumulation of all of them in the bloodstream in type two diabetes, and I actually think that again me going out on a limb
that obesity doesn't cause type two diabetes and type two diabetes doesn't cause obesity that they develop in concert from the same problem, which is overfeeding under activity. So a lot of it is about how much new It's your flexing into cells versus how much energy you're creating flexing them through the cell and out so when you're overfeeding, whether it be carbohydrate fat flexing more energy in then you can dispose of, and now you have to, do something with it. Well, when you run out of when you do that, much in and mitochondria start to become dysfunction dysfunctional. You start to not have enough places to put it away and it starts bloodstream? And now you cause all kinds of problems. So
things that we really wanted to talk about here is high carb versus low Carb, because this is just a giant point of contention today in nutrition, especially in terms of athletes with performance in mind. That's it's a big factor whether or not high, carb or low is way to go and there's a results on both on both sides and there's a lot of there's and there's a lot of online experts, and one of the great think about bringing you two guys in here is 'cause. You could really actually explain the science behind it. Now you've been great, laying at pointing out that there's it's not a man, bullet- and you know- and so many people like to sort of stress it- that way that they they'd like to portray ketogenic this? Is it? This is the end all be all I figured out what to do. This is the way everyone should be eating. You don't think so I don't think so
because if you look at the the weight loss problem in our society and I'm writing a book called fat loss forever, will I talk about this in detail? We they have a weight loss problem. Six out of every seven people are able to lose a significant amount of body weight in their life, who are obese or overweight. The problem is the weight. Regain. Statistics are absolutely like terra. Sign within one year. Seventy percent will put it all back on with two years at eighty five percent within three years. It's ninety five percent, so that means diet have a ninety five percent failure rate and all those people, one slash to two slash three- will add more than they originally lost, and this gets kind of into Yo Yo dieting, and I talked about that as well. But the real problem is that people don't stick to something that sustainable for them all the research. If there's one bit of research out there that that we have, that shows how to create lasting weight loss and you look at the people
the five percent who actually keep it off, it's a they pick something that's sustainable, whether it be Kita Genic, whether it be low, carb, high or low fat. Whatever is vegan, something that they can sustain and make a lifestyle if you, if you look at meta analysis. For our listeners. Analyses are kind of a study of studies, so they take. Researchers, take studies that have similar parameters and they kind of lumped them together and they look at ok, the consensus amongst these studies and they have advanced statistics that used to run this. If you look at low carb versus low fat, there's, no difference in appearance overall on the whole? There's no difference no difference in weight, loss, there's no difference in blood lipids, even seem to control. So there was a study where they a minute.
Also, I think it was twenty three studies over three thousand people where they look at okay. If you control calories, so calories are equated, does low carb versus low fat ' make a difference on weight loss, glycemic control. Those certainly the ketogenic diet. So by definition we have an objective by a marker that defines the ketogenic diet is the only diet that actually has something that you you know. You can measure your blood to say you're on this diet and when you're ketone levels are elevated, that can for many different benefits that I believe, can enhance it here. It's to the diet before we get into the woods,
I want to clarify one thing: the difference between someone being on a diet and being able to sustain it and not being able to stand in getting all that weight back. Isn't that a discipline issue well partly, but we kind of had to start looking at ok. If we, if we go and let me let me re circle, we have to find what requires the least amount of discipline for somebody to stick to, because discipline is is, while some people have more some people have. Yes, it is a finite resource. So when do we normally find the people like kind of drop off whatever they're doing? It's when they're stressed out works Send them out are going, divorce, those kinds of things right, that's where our discipline kind of Wayne's, 'cause we're trying to be so disciplined for this other thing and it's draining us. So what happens with diet is in people who are
Z, people who have a lot of stress in their life. That's they really start over eating. So we have to find something that requires. I look at it. It's something that requires the minimal amount of discipline for a person, so that, when your life goes to absolute shit, you can still stick to it, and so for some people that is a very the individual thing, and they see this in the dietary studies that what works for one person to create a deficit and sustainable is it the same way for another person and don't even commented on this about his wife chill. She does much better on a higher ratio of carbohydrates to fat yeah I mean early beyond. It was obvious that she wasn't going to change your diet, the time that we met like ten years ago. Most we I was really getting into this and I really felt that for me at least, but she would stop at checkers and you'll get a burger and at drinking and she's a tremendously carbon tolerance is very skinny as a kid and she,
Tommy, tolerant, carbohydrates, very carbohydrate, tolerance that I say internal yeah. So an you know: if the diet, low carb, I feel an maybe in eugenic putting it under that umbrella works. I think for up to twenty five to thirty percent of people, especially at their carbohydrate intolerance, and I believe that is that, by virtue of elevating ketones shifting your neuropharmacology of the brain, for example, it works through Ghrelin. It works There's new science emerging right now. Showing that appetite regulation is influenced positively by nutritional ketosis in ways that were just starting to learn now, but you can certainly feel it oh yeah things about the ketogenic diet when you're in that state you all of a sudden you're, just not hungry. This is not a an overwhelming need for food yeah, I'm I haven't had anything to eat. Today I mean when I was eating.
Massive plates of pasta twenty five years ago, and I went to this long without food- I would start getting. Jk. I would. I would have a hypoglycemic response and I'm completely re to that and it has major implications for military personnel being Keto adapted, not just for performance preventing seizures and, I think for cognitive function to, but you it's very liberating so meal frequency is not an issue. So if you're in austere environments, where you have limited food availability, that becomes a major issue and if you're working as a scientist and you can't, you know, you're working with animals are doing experiments. You don't have time to eat. I need to maintain that cognitive function. I need to be sharp with limited food of it, so it worked very good for me throughout my professorship. You know getting tenure and things like that, or I could just put more time in Enerji into my work without having to stop prepare a meal eat a meal clean up like. I think I wasted a lot of time doing that when I was eating five to six meals a day
He said something that I think you've called bullshit on before the phrase carb intolerant, so yeah, so that was, I guess, you'll be one of the things that says: hey we have so we can disagree about carb tolerance. Carb. Would you I would say, put that how we define that? Yes, yes, so if you define it by a blood marker, your glucose response to a meal. Ok, so a couple of things I want to come right out and frame. This whole discussion quick. So we both agree that, in terms of weight, loss and body composition, that your total calorie intake per day is the most important thing correct. Yes, I I believe the key to genic strategy is a way to regulate that, but so with with carbon tolerance. If, if you look at the benefits of like on blood glucose blood lipids, it is almost ninety to ninety five percent explained by weight loss. So beauty you can take. People put them on a high carb, very low for
diet, their blood glucose and their blood lipids will drop eat even with like higher insulin levels than people who are not a low carb diet, if they're on the calorie, restrict yes, if they're calorie, restricted now again that that becomes a very individual thing. I you know, if somebody says hey, I like to keep it in a tight because for me it helps me to create a calorie deficit. I can stick to it a knock yourself out. That is no problem, but that is not always going to work. Some people don't feel that say she on the kitchen it died. There are people who do feel hungrier all of that. So that is a very individual response and again we look at studies. We're looking at means right, so we're talking about averages. And there are outliers like if you look at any gaussian distribution chart which is kind of how populations distribute based on a certain treatment. You have about sixty seventy percent that fall into the average, then you have another One thousand and twenty percent that are kind of do a little bit
so one way versus the other, and then you have five percent on either end are sorry national either enter outliers right so just to frame this again, let's take weight, lifting No weight weightlifting makes you bigger and stronger right like that is not up for debate. We agree on that. There. Studies have shown that some people who are beginners you should be gaining a lot of muscle very quickly. Some we'll go from the first time they walk in the gym. Two thousand five hundred and twelve weeks after squatting, four hundred pounds, some people don't get stronger. They've actually been studies where, over twelve weeks there is a few individuals who did not get stronger. So those are your outliers right there. So if we smirk circle back to get a J diet, I'm not sitting here and saying that somebody may actually physiologically do better on a ketogenic diet versus a a lower fat diet. That's a very individual response, but when we start making recommendations for people what we should start with is ok created calorie deficit that allows you to lose some weight, because if we look at the
How and we look at if we equate for protein cuz, that's a big thing. So if you at some of the studies were of all the dead, were he compared like you're kind of food guide, pyramid type, diet to a kitchenette diet, the key to Jake to a little bit higher protein that protein has a thermogenic affect, and also an appetite suppression of fact, when you a quick for those and there's been thirty Tuesday, there was a recent meta analysis done of thirty two studies of the quota for calories and protein- absolutely no difference, in fact LOS when you equate for those two calories and protein because proteins, a big one, because protein has a big benefit on thermogenesis and and weight loss, also lean body mass retention, which is huge because one the reasons people regain weight is because is when they lose weight, they tend to lose fat and muscle and when they regain it, it's almost all fat in the initial phase. As far as data may not have included data with the ketogenic diet. So I know you know when I
the dye I've seen a lot of blood work. So, for example, my hemoglobin h, one c triglycerides Hse RP goes down. Insulin goes down, blood pressure goes down and that that all those all those changes happened without my body weight changing. So that would kind of argue against that you needed a calorie death, set and I've seen it many times, but once you could, I could be eating eighty to ninety percent carbs and reduce from my body way and get changes, and all that I could actually increase my carbs and if I create a calorie deficit, you know my hemoglobin h once he will get out my sugar road and things like that said. That is really the dry. That's like that trumps. Everything that that carried us said that doesn't
Thank the! So that's what and that's what I think. A lot of people miss okay, and I think that that what I'll say is sorry ha ha well. I'm just saying, like I think, that's very powerful to that disease. Changes that I just mentioned can occur with our with without changing your body. Weight said they're just you know your fundamentally changing your metabolism when you do that from car, and that has pretty wide ranging implications. So I I think that what I'm going to say is that if you, if we're gonna talk about people getting healthier, the first thing we need to start with is: let's not lose fifty percent argan about five percent right. So if I well somebody hey find a diet. You can stick to that sustainable and if you can lose ten percent, you can lose ten percent of your body weight even for obese people. They get almost all the health benefits in the first ten percent. Now maybe some people, like you people who respond to well to a ketogenic diet, I'm not getting those out or people
on the other side of the gaussian curve. If you do little bit better on there, then great, but if you find a key to the diet, is completely unsustainable for you and you're not you're not able to stick to it but you're trying to do it because you're trying to get a little bit better blood glucose regulation. Your your you know your kind of shoot yourself in the foot, because if you could stick to like, let's say for the individual higher carb diet was easier for them to stick to. They could lose weight on the then that's the bulk of their health benefits they're going to get from it. I'm I'm having a hard time of these terms easier, because I don't know exactly why it would be easier, wouldn't be easier, and I always wonder again is is a discipline issue, because that's the your experience, not preference yeah. It comes down to it for sure food preference, but I believe that by when you follow low Carb,
even kidded, on a diet, the very ability of the fluctuations in your insulin and and blood glucose, the postprandial dipped in blood glucose that you get after it that's virtually abolished or significantly attack you waited, and then you have a key tones and are working through grill. In, for example, you could just a normal diet and drink ketones, and it's actually it's suppressing your appetite through ground. So we know that these through reductions in Grayling, you're, saying yeah, ok, so to these changes, sort of are happening, but there might stir. For example, you know, follow the Ketogenic Genic and found it easy to follow, but she gained weight because she was eating all these fat bombs that she was making. So she tries and a lot of people don't miss. SARA Lee need a nutritionist to tell them what they need like a nutritional psychotherapist, you know, their relationship with food is really an. I think that's what lane has.
Firm grasp on there's no substitute for experience an lane has worked so many different clients, and knows that you know you could probably follow the that your listeners are probably fans, accusing I can do what I love fatty food. You know, I've had food low, carb food, but generally speaking it's you know, you have to approach it from the perspective sort of eating behavior and I think that's really. People want to go off the die it's just a natural human, trait yeah. It's a weird psychological, trait, right yeah. I just want to cheat. You want to just stuff your face of cupcakes every now and then and then, and then you just so. You feel like it's too much torture to keep yourself on this narrow path of high fat, low, carb, moderate protein, but You know. Five years ago ten years ago. That was the case, but now there is key to Jenny, brownies or is key to Jenna cookies. There's many different food counters lecture
I've tried to write so hard coded key, though I have a real one and a key cookie enough. I could run every time yeah. Well, they they are evolving. Just you know, through technology and of all the some of my no yeah to make some good stuff go to go to Kino nutrition, dot, o r g and there's some things there that I would say about ten or twenty percent passed the test, meaning that they take. Okay and they actually do what they say. They actually elevate ketones or you know, don't cause a glycemic response. Some of those killed cookies seem like they have no foundation like you. Bye. Don't They go away like as you're eating them. It's like they dissolve. You know, do. You have like a good toll house. Cookie, a good real chocolate chip cookies by the end of that sucker. You know it's bad for you, but God damn it feels good it's being did you try the quest protein cookies? Yes, they're going to get that pretty pretty good, they can't with real cookies. Well, I dip. I dip them in
in like sour cream right and then I eat them or or coconut cream. So that then it becomes cutie Jack Jesus Christ will not get a child's a commitment. You bring it up. Interesting, though, if you look at people that think they're addicted to sugar or that sugar is a lot. If you look at things like cookies and cakes, and it's actually, they have more calories from fats than they do. Sugars, it's in fact, together is hyper palatable mine. So we know one of the things I was was going to bring up. Is you know this idea that that that sugar is so inherently bad? You said that the cookie you know we do. That is inherently bad thing, but what if I told you there were certain people, not everybody everybody's different, but there are certain people who, if you tell them, hey! You can have that cookie every once in awhile, if you track it working at your macronutrient intake that that's fine, that that actually improve their adherence to diet so because you give them a reward:
no, not a reward system, United Dog door. What don't reward yourself because because flexibility actually really improves it here, it's so we see this actually training to athletes are when you do flexible, training model where they have to get in. Training, but they kind of can pick and choose their self, which days are hard in which days are a little bit. They actually do better diet is very similar to that. So now you owe we have to sacrifice something in order to if you want to lose weight right. So you're doing a ketogenic diet, what you're sacrificing is say! Well, I like the spontaneous tions appetite so I don't mind eating not these foods, so I can get that if you're doing like what kind of what I did was I popularized it. But myself and some other people on the message. Boards populi, something called flexible, dieting, where you can eat Essentia Lee whatever you want. As long as you hit your protein carbohydrate and fat targets. Now, what you're sacrificing is ok, you're tracking every day do that through an app.
What a nap Donald School Old School, I actually just do it through excel for Holly she has an app on her phone and like she she has me like. If she's put? I just ate, I'm like babe. I don't even know I had no idea how to work. This thing you know so because when I went to do my graduate studies, I mean I wanted to find magic foods. I want to find something that would secure hello. Can you make a lot think you have to set yourself apart. I mean if I'm over here saying: for me to sell what I what I do because saying: well, every moderation and- and you got to be diligent- you gotta have these behaviors and that doesn't sound sexy when there's another guy, over here saying now: Bro, it's just carbs, I know, okay did everything by it's just cards. You know when I start I'm working with people and I've worked with over one thousand five hundred people coaching in nutrition online over the past. Thirteen years She probably taught me more than life. The my phd did what I found
This is that people were so different individually in terms of what made them tick. You know now I feel like I should go back and get some kind tip biologically would make check or psychologically both both. So I can't sit here hey by the research that that carbohydrate versus fat makes a difference on fat loss, but what I can tell you is that some people just seem to do better on lower carb higher but also some people. I work with just seem to do better with higher carb lower fat know, whether that's psychological thing or a physiological thing. It's hard to tease out medically to I think and yeah. We all have different snips. You know that you know some people have suppressed fatty acid, oxidation pathways, other herbs like screaming fat metabolizers, you know or fat or sugar metabolizers yeah. You know so. But if you look
get like. I remember. I had a conversation with them with with the return of the researcher Doctor Nakahara Illinois, who was doing also that for does stuff. When I was a when I was a first year, grad student, I said: what's this, this high fructose corn syrup this what's causing obesity, and he's like. Well, it's easy to over consume. You know like if you take a soda and you drink it, you not less hungry than you were, then you were stuffy. He said, but if you're, if you're controlling your calories. It doesn't seem to be more lipogenic than compareable carbohydrate and I thought remember thinking, but that can't be right. All these people say that high fructose corn syrup is like the worst thing in the world for you, there was. There was a few studies that really changed my opinion on sugar. Now the listeners I hear this and think that I'm advocating for sugar, I'm not you're, not talking about in the context of a calorie, sir plus.
If which is of fructose, can which kind of explains the state of United States. You know- So if you look at sugar intake does so this kind of gets back to the carbohydrate insulin, obesity model. If you look at sugar and take over the last fifty years or last one hundred years, it went up very steadily with obesity until around the mid nineties, and then it took a sharp dip while BC continue to climb again, that's just correlation data, but if you look at the overall calorie intake versus obesity rates. It's like an r squared of like nine, four, which is really really sugar, include high fructose corn, sir, is that lumped into this added sugars. This was out, but there was a study done by a metabolic ward study must not be there. Are you saying that this it is added sugars, not hi. Folks took photos corn syrup. So when you talk about the graph of consumption that sugar dropped off, but high fructose corn syrup to
not, is that accurate that took over many of the product. So if there's increase in obesity, but a decrease in sugar consumption but you're not say a decrease in high fructose corn syrup consumption. So I don't know that I'd have to look that up. So here's me, being a scientist and saying the three networks. I don't know that one of the last Congress as I I went to show that, like the rise of the last ten to fifteen years, like skyrocketing with high fructose corn certain and be sugar, was taken out high fructose corn syrup is subsidized farmers about cheaper and it you agree that it's essentially your body weight processes, essentially the same sugar versus high fructose corn syrup Carol calorie well, so sugar sucrose is fifty percent glucose. Fifty percent for to us, however, his courtship is fifty five percent for toll. Forty five percent glucose, but if you're saying that that five percent is what reading obesity. Again psychologically, people just down sodas like it's their job. You know
you're doing that, especially as children. That's a big big know know whether it's the max I think, I'm with the cane sugar with kids now with with non alcoholic fatty, liver disease, and that did not but I would say that years ago we got a little kid like kids and you think that's from corn syrup. I think it's due to in excess surplus calories and those surplus calories being high fructose. So if you, If you're used to eating a certain amount of calories- and you may be back when we're actually maintaining your weight back in before the 60s, we read about two thousand two hundred calories a day that was the average, and now it's like two thousand eight hundred is the average consumption United States amongst adults. Think I need a lot more what would you trade, you training? You have a higher lean body mass. So that's that's! That's fine! No! Some people yeah, we that's a hold of the rabbit hole. Yeah v. If you if you start adding sodas in which art satiating at all. They don't positively affect your hunger hormones, but you continue
same normal food intake bull- I mean you can start to store right yeah. So, but I can't tell somebody hey, there's no way you can lose weight and drink soda because that's not true there was a study done by serve it and they looked at high glycemic diet. First low glycemic I mean extreme. They did. One group had one hundred grams of sugar a day. Another group had ten grams or less is eleven grams or less per day, and they looked at the This is in weight, loss, blood, lipids. All that kind of stuff did calories or carbohydrates. So the group that eighteen grams of sugar less today the day, eat the same amount of total carbohydrates, same low carb so low glycemic versus high glycemic processed carbs, can spike your glucose more than sugar right, so they did have a fire higher fiber intake, but what they did find that they had.
Higher. In some responses to the meal. The high sugar group did but no difference in the weight loss so that both both groups lost weight are the only real difference was the deal the lower glycemic group had a little bit better, both improve improve cholesterol. The lower glycemic group had just a little bit better improvement prob because they were eating higher fiber, which combined cholesterol on you, and I would like to see what happened if they acquitted. So again, it's it's. Getting that calorie deficit. Both groups lost weight. Now. Is it more difficult? to create a calorie deficit. If eating a lot of sugar. Yes, okay, so I always tell people your diet is like a budget if you're practicing something like flexible dieting right so far, I've got somebody like myself, who has above average muscle mass. Hopefully I can say that people on the internet probably going to die, What do you look at his work shirt with his name on it? So
ok I'll, say it. You have above average muscle mass. Thank you welcome. So so, if you have How much muscle mass you train hard? You have a faster metabolism. Naturally I mean I've seen people who could maintain their body weight on six seven thousand calories a day. You have a higher metabolic rate. You have a really big budget. So if you make a hundred million dollars a year, is it a big deal for you to go out and buy a five hundred thousand dollars sports car if you can still pay your mortgage kitchen other requirements that you have? No it's fine, but if you make Eighty grand a year should you go out and buy a five hundred thousand dollars sports car? Probably not right, and if you make thirty should be on the Keto diet. You will have increased efficiency, so it's the same thing so like people, so pop tart somehow became the model of a flexible dieting movement, because people were here's, why it's kind of like counter culture, it's like so pop tart
well it's out there, it's like. So whenever you have so clean eating became a thing amongst body buildings. We say: eat clean others no Jenny is baby. There's no objective definition of that. So people will like oh yeah, well, I'm getting shredded night a pop tart every day right. So a lot of your followers do that they do. Now that I don't actually created. I don't even like pop tarts. If you do this, did you start this? No! No! I don't know who else you know. Let me let me put the context to this, so it's more about people saying hey. I can still eat these foods. I enjoy and I'm still losing weight because I'm with it, I'm going to cal and I'm hitting my protein carb and fat targets. But if you're somebody a slow metabolism and you're not exercising very much, Maybe all your eating is one hundred grams of carbs a day. Should you spend seven, five grams of those carbs on two pop tarts hell. No, that's a terrible idea, because you're not going to be able to figure of micronutrients in those sorts of things, but if you're eating four thousand calories
like Alberto Nunez friend of ours, if you're eating four thousand calories day and losing weight is a big deal if he has to pop tarts, not really because he I had one competitor again, a competitor who had such a fast metabolism that he was actually having a lot of GI dysfunction, because he he he He was either like seven hundred grams of carbs in two hundred grams of fat per day, just to maintain his weight, and he said I feel bloated all the time, and I said what are you eating like what are foods there's chicken, rice and broccoli, and I said it's a pita butter fats and I'm like well, no wonder dude you're having a hundred fifty grams of fiber a day, you're literally full of shit like your ship is like back to your softness. Ok, so I said: do me: a favor eat some pizza eat some pop tarts eat some more calorically, dense foods and see how you feel after three days here. We have three days like man, I feel so much better. I dropped like three.
I feel amazing 'cause. It seems to make any sense because ain't lincolns fired the pop tart generation. He also inspired an I watched this play out online. She sounds really bad. Well Lane actually inspired a generation of drug free bodybuilders to go and do their Ph Ds you know, and actually, when one's in my lab right right now is it may enter, enter yeah for awhile yeah. It is using student, and I think he he learned a lot just from watching lane. So but I think you know it was amazing to see these guys eating that amount of pop tarts and and junk food, and I learned a lot from that, but I think they could do it with with better carbohydrates, so also what works for performance, what works for Bodybuilding may not be is probably not optimal for longevity and health so that that's an important point, you know Lane winced taught
I yeah. I the audio this high okay, so I I know I I know where he's coming from, but you know I'd like to hear his opinion yeah. So before used to that. Why do you think that it would be an issue? What what would be the issue with sugar and with pop tarts and jump food will be the negative affects biologic. I think the accumulation of the postprandial spikes and glucose in insulin over time, especially in the context of a calorie surplus, could be a bad thing. If you are doing a calorie surplus to example, for example to weight and mass over time which bodybuilders do do following contest in the off season. I I think it's even more important, almost to actually stick with foods. Carbon great sources that are glycemic? You know you can only tolerate so much fiber, but I think if you are,
calories or if you are doing a ketogenic diet, and you have a calorie sir plus, that could be a bad thing. Your triglyceride triglycerides will go up, so you are you're, putting too much fat in the system and that, but it will go up with a higher carb diet, it would go on the higher carb diet too. So I mean I kind of would stay along lines of maybe protein, but you, you titrate it in in a reasonable amount, but I just think that the negative? You know that you Out of that, is that your you know I'm following a blood glucose curve right and will incur Van. I see this very dramatically, for example in my student, who is a type one diabetic Andrew Koutnik who's in an he the Dexcom, a continuous blood glucose monitoring system and his insulin, requirements dramatically dropped with low carb and his glucose fluctuations dramatically improved and that's going to pay big dividends. Probably if you have type one diabetes you
you know the ten top things on on how humans die. You have a greater risk for everyone of this. You know dramatic, and you know it cuts ten years off your life. If you, the tighter, you can keep your glucose levels, your blood glucose in your insulin levels that in the long run, I feel it's going to pay. The science still has to show that I think it's not totally clear, but I think we can for one diabetics, which I think we can apply that data to the to the population. If they control their glucose levels, that pays big dividends in the long run. Thank so a couple things here. She touched on a couple points I was going to bring up, but I want to just one thing: first, which is the higher postprandial insulin in those the negative effects on health, so. If you have they've done studies on this on Bmi versus insulin, now bye, bye, a
we can debate about how useful the measure it is, but in general it reflects body fat in the average population, not in lifters, but in the average bmi by the way for people who are listening is a ratio of your height versus your weight. That generally reflects obesity lift weights, and I are both. Yes, I'm a morbidly obese. It seems so silly it is. But if you look at the general relation who doesn't exercise. It's actually pretty darn accurate uhm get factored into your. Which is not as it really is yours, a cat and that's the area. So they look at you and see some. Some insurances will do like a waste just measurement which which helps, but anyway so sprengel insulin, they've, looked at the relationship between people of the B allies and postprandial insulin. They find the people with higher bmi, have higher postprandial insulin, but the opposite relationship to
not hold true, people who have higher insulin do not necessarily have higher bmi and they've done this in med analysis. So what that says is again that if you are obese type, two diabetic metabolic syndrome profile that you will have elevated levels of insulin because your body is becoming insensitive to it because of all the dysfunction that we talked about, but just because you secrete higher insulin doesn't mean that you're going to have more body fat and there was a study done actually by one of the proponents of the carbohydrate insulin, uh huh. This is that looked at what's called mendelian randomization, where, basically the idea is, you have different gene variants like we were talking about and if, for example, like they've done this with ldl cholesterol are sorry: yes, ldl cholesterol, we believe most people believe the ldl cholesterol has some contribution towards heart disease. It's a pretty, I would say it's a pretty strong that people can over controversial,
so dependent an individual when they look at these gene variants. People who have gene variants where they run lower ldl have lower rates of heart disease people who are higher higher rates between parents. Yet, if you look at that, with insulin at best insulin explains ten obesity at absolute best in that study actually showed a high level of bias. It was between one ten percent, so we're not I'm not putting out the idea that maybe Insulin has some effect talking about fasting insulin or postprandial insulin overall, overall, I'm guessing probably more so. Fasting. How do I measure insulin? I mean we. We have hemoglobin a one c for like a you know that so there's another unit to lose another meta analysis where they looked at higher carb verses, lower carb diets,
equating calories, looking an h b, a one c and saw that so the the though differences in weight loss, we're no different. The like we discussed when calories are equated, but also the difference is an h b. One c reduction were different. They were the same now you asked about health and you know consuming somebody's coracle, bad foods. If I do it in the but you you said in the context of a cork surplus right, which is the important thing because they help to create a surplus, but in a deficit of the. What what's the downside, because kind of when you talk to people who are not just not keep digit nationally, but proponents of clinical clean eating, which again has no real objective definition. When you say okay well, a pop tart, maybe whose will if it can't be good for you, okay? Well, then we
does some objective measurement to show this by right like because otherwise it's do you believe in magic? Okay. So if you look at processed foods, what they have found with processed foods is that you have a lower energy expenditure from them. Okay, so you have a certain amount of what we call TF thermic effect of food higher protein has a higher tf than carbohydrate In fact. Ok, so we know the higher protein diets actually cause more weight. Lausanne, better lean body mass protection. Part of that is through the increased their Magenta sis of the TF thermic effect of food Well, with processed foods have a lower Tef, okay, but that doesn't mean you can't eat any processed foods and and lose weight you can you just need, you might have to eat a little bit lower calories overall, makes sense if there was a Kita genic pop tart and it was made with almond paste, and we know that if we almonds were probably or other nuts or things that just give an example, we don't fully
I just a simile and utilize those calories they passed through us. So with a pop tart. I think it's pretty highly, like Ralph like like a salad and with nuts and things like that, like it, it becomes significant overtime with pop tart, like you can, and basically a hundred percent of that is going into your system and it's causing a hormonal wrist. So the food that we eat creates is not only calories but creates a hormonal response and also from the brain perspective. Can change the Neuro Pharmacology of your brain. I mean that's how I got into the ketogenic diet, because it fundamentally changes neurotransmitter systems and reward systems, and things like that right, but hormones people get so hung up on hormones and and if you look at the research data it just doesn't, like with insulin one I'm in terms of like losing weight and your what happens with leptin and ghrelin and all those kinds of things. That is a huge one of the things we talked about:
before the podcast started. We had about thirty minute, podcast yeah, we did. Actually you know people say things like one of the PETE reasons. People are really mistrust full of kind of the calories in calories out model is because it is viewed as a two isolated variables, calories in and calories that are separate. That's not true calories in effects calories out. Ok, there are moving target. So people say well, I ate a calorie deficit, I didn't lose weight, no you ate and what you thought was a calorie deficit and you didn't lose weight, but if you didn't lose weight, it was not a color in deficit. Definition? Ok, so retaining water or something yeah? We look at dieting like just dieting general overtime lowers your metabolic rate right. So if you, Take somebody they actually did a rat study again rats, but rats tend to respond pretty similar to humans. In terms, would you agree with that in terms of blood blue?
a lot of that size is a lot of rats in mouse studies yeah, I I think there's a lot of their good overlap there yeah! So again we have to put that out there because we want to. We don't want to oversell. They did a depends on the context. We're stuck Of course, yeah like it can answer some questions. Questions like an animal studies can be held, but you don't want to do like an an insulin study in to tell the ruminants and there they don't care about insulin one anyway. They took rats. They took him to two cycles. Okay, so this is kind of back to the Yo Yo dieting thing and it looked at okay when they took obese rats, died them down to a kind of normal level, then they let them they get basically give as much food as they wanted. Let him eat back to the original obese level, diving down again to the previous level, and the letter read back up what they felt was absolutely a star.
Xing their food efficiency. What so far up, because the metabolic rate became suppressed every time they died down. Your body has the self defense system that you activate every time you diet. I talk about this in my shameless plug book, so the first on the I, if that's the kind of one times rate that they lost fat at when they let them regain it They begin to twice as fast as they lost it, then the second time. They tried to lose it. They lost it at half the original rate, then, when they regained it the second time they give get gate at three times as fast their food efficiency. Way up there ability to lose it have, you know, Then you notice. Well, what's that so they lose it get presidentially faster as well. No, no! They took him as long to lose the same amount of weight. So I probably didn't explain it very well. Yeah. I took him twice as long to lose the same amount of weight and they regained it in one slash three, the time of the original, so your body's getting accustomed to famine exactly because every time
Can you dye it, and we see this with Yo Yo dieters, who spend how many people do you know that seem to be actually on a diet yeah, but they just had that short overfeeding in between diets and it it. It really does because every time you died, your activating your body self defense system how many fighters do you know that every time they it gets harder and harder for them quite well they're doing more than that they're cutting weight, the cutting weight. Is That's actually almost dying right, but part of that is there having a crash diet. Super low. So what is the signal you're telling your body 'cause? You have to always think about things. From an evolutionary perspective. My Phd advisor was great about, he'd always ask his name. Was Doctor Don Lemon, brilliant guy and he would say why do you think the body did this? Well, if you think about what are the regulatory mechanism becoming fat versus becoming, You said right, so one one danger: is you starve to death? The other danger you get so fat that a predator can come get you, which is.
More dangerous in the last twenty thousand years. It's famine, it's famine, so your body creates much tighter. Self defense system there. So when you diet, your metabolic rate, slows way down, I mean, if you've ever these guys, who So the time they're ready to get fight, for example, the metabolic rates really slow, then what happens after they they fight. They eat a crap ton of food, because they're they're they're growing his way up left in this way. Down insulin is way down, and maybe Can it really fast? Now I would hate safe to assume just interject that if you die for sixteen weeks for a show, for example, or contest what you are, Ashley educated me in like ten years ago, and I thought there was a sight post
has rebounded in two weeks or be this anabolic window every animal fat it actually, if you die it hard for sixteen weeks to make way, it takes an equal amount of time to get your metabolism actually to that level. Again. Okay, maybe debt so coin, the term rate reverse dieting river. I don't know if I call I'm going to we wanted in court that he, this with minimal chambers and rats in and use a variety of different approaches to determine how fast it it actually takes. To to bring your metabolism back up and if different strategies can be used to ramp up your metabolism. Well, because when you regain it, you regain fat really quickly, but your metabolic rate is more. Wish to return. So they actually did a study with the the biggest loser participants. And this is why I'm so big what what is sustainable the end of it has to be sustainable. They looked at So they lost on average, like quite a bit of I can't remember the exact numbers, but they lost a bunch of
within weeks 'cause. They starve them and they exercised the crap out of them and they say call that their metabolic rate dropped Five hundred calories more than you would predict just by the amount of body fat and lean body mass. They lose this what's called metabolic adaptation when you define metabolic rate dropping what do you mean by? That was the so so you have so we can calculate all this stuff So your overall total daily energy expenditure, your tde, is made up of your basal metabolic rate, which is what you burn. Like what we're doing right now, just sitting around doing oxygen, consumption c, two production to actually I see due to log to be real. It's just laying down doing nothing. So, basically the energy burn, keeping the lights on right. That's one component, it's about fifty to sixty percent and most people think you have your. Or neat which is like this. Like I'm moving my hands, I'm ambulatory movement, voluntary movement. This stuff will go down when you diet, like you ever been around people go down? Yes, you stop fidgeting
goes down huge modifier so like. If you look at, I did a dvd when I was. Hoping for a show back in two thousand and ten, I blinked slower, I'm not cheating you and I talked yeah, you are. Can valium, it looks and you're right now all hyped up on the in the life of lane. With that series of Jeffrey Dahmer's. Oh absolutely like your Oh your body, this is your body. Genic diet would help you so so, when you think about so there's neat That's that, then your exercise activity which is intuitive. That's how many calories you burn exercising and then there's what's called the thermic effect of food, which we already discussed, how much energy required to get energy out of food? Ok, those add up to your total daily energy expenditure, and we can predict based on equations how what what your metabolic rate should be. So these people there It was five hundred calories a day lower than it should have been just based off the way
lost, because if you lose muscle and you lose fat, you have less weight to carry around right so break those down just from that, but it goes down way more than it should that is your the first prong of your body self defense system to stop you from starting office to become more efficient. We hear the efficiency and we think wow. That's that's a good thing! Think about. If your body fat levels were a gas tank and you you had a car okay, you would not want efficient right. You don't have one of the old suburbans. It was like half a mile per gallon right. You know what the previous, because you can go way longer, so going back to that study on rats. They became so much more efficient with their food, and this is the second song of your body self defense system is to not only put down your metabolic rate while you're dieting, but to start activating systems that deal with restorage once you actually start over reading again never done along Diotoir known somebody who did it and then they start eating again. It's like everything sticks to you. It's like you, just it's like you like. How did I gain five,
pounds from one day and people like. Oh, it's, water, well, water doesn't stay around for six months. So it's not water that your body preparing all the system so even like in signs that deal with fat storage, while you're dieting actually go up because is preparing your body for restore age and then even probably, the most interesting thing is that all falls back on the importance of tracking macros, which is completely ignored with guys coming off of a fight or fitness competitor. But you don't just let yourself blow up really quickly. It's a myth that your body is. To be anabolic or to gain muscle, is your your set up for fat yeah? But the point I'm trying to make is that the way most people diet, which is kind of I mean you, know you've, probably been around people who do this yoyo stuff? It's it's a lot of people yeah. They they pick the next fad, diet, whatever's,
popular they do it. They lose some weight and they begin at my dad lost thirty pounds in the kitchen, a diet regain fifty right now. The real problem is in Iraq as macros. Now it does the real property south thirty pounds again, but the real problem is. If you we used to think adipose tissue was like a sponge right. So if you two eight to much, he just threw more in there right soaked up extra nutrients and then, if you started, if you in a court deficit you're losing weight, it just gave up some of its nutrients. You know like the guy and faster for three and sixty five days and then died, because he had so much okay, so much fat. We now know that body fat fits every definition of a in the endocrine system, it's a tissue. It is an actual organ because it sends out hormonal signals integrates hormonal signals. It talks to the brain behind brain. Are argument nucleus? It is integrated in all, metabolism in a big way, and typically you have
play. We gain fatter. Lose fat is based on the fat cell size, so you have set number of fat cells and the other expand. Well, the shrink pretty intuitive. Unless now you can create more fat cells. If you become so obese that the few literally can't stuff anymore fat in there right so obese people have fat cell hyperplasia a lot of times What's really interesting is people at the end of a diet when your when your thyroid on his lower your sympathetic nervous system tone is lower this unique hormone ammalu, if you overfeed too rapidly there's a researcher named Mclean out of Colorado that show that you can actually increase your fat cell number if you overfeed too rapidly right after a diet. Now this was in rats, full disclosure it, it was nothing fascinating stuff. So now you're increasing your bodies, but it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. Your body is like ship. We had,
this famine. We don't want to deal with this shit again. We want to make sure that we can store as much stuff as possible, so we're going to create some dude. Rapidly overfeeding we're going to create some new. That seems to make sure we're not going to miss any of this energy going to capture every single bit of it. I like sane, and it makes us a lot of sense, you're, but you're talking about weight, loss and weight gain, but you were specifically discussing hormonal changes in the body due to the Q. Genic died that are beneficial and that these hormonal to changes in the changes to the way that the brain functions would be a benefit of following that diet versus just working on calories. Yeah, I mean it's at that book. I gave you complete book of ketones by doctor Merry so so that I don't think it's actually out yet, but US prep guide, yeah we get jacked, so ketones are hit submit on there a
There are certain, by definition, have a metabolic superiority as a as a fuel source. You know, and they readily cross the blood brain barrier. They can largely replaced glucose as a primary energy source. In your brain under pairs of fasting or cajun diet, so that that offers a lot of advantages to someone dieting because it makes you resilient, like the guy that fast at three hundred eighty two days, his glucose was was like thirty and took down the twenty. That would be universally fatal for most people, but is ketones are elevated, so he did not feel hunger said that that is true. Like that Cahill Studies, George K, Hell
studies at Harvard Medical School, where they fasted subjects for forty days, they injected insulin, to increase. What I agree to that. Can I remember presenting this that leans camp awhile back and I eat. When I you know, read the study, I had to call him on the phone. He was living. He passed away in two thousand twelve, but we had a number of conversations before passed away, and I was amazed that he got ethics approval do that because it's basically like killing someone injecting twenty, I use of insulin- What was fascinating, that they were asymptomatic for high. A glycemia at a level of hypoglycemia, that's typically universally fatal, and they were also very cognitively lucid and that was it matic demonstration. At the time, it was thought that the brain could only use glucose, so is a paradigm shift in the way we understand could sort of fuel utilization, particularly in the brain, said
that has major and I can go on and talking about the different applications of the ketogenic, which I did on the first podcast, but from a perspective, of someone dieting. To lose. Weight eating as a lifestyle doing intermittent fasting. The key to genic diet makes intermittent fasting much easier because your brains adapted to it that for me how tremendous practical, app, Asians. That allowed me, I feel to excel through academia. I was able to do a lot more work, not get hungry, and you know we haven't trained in awhile. But when we train last night- we did deadlifts, I mean we were both dead lifting six hundred and seventy five for reps and I was on actually I was on the the classical ketogenic diet and then that's when I was just and it you know how to years ago versus like eighty to ninety percent fat is doing that for about a year, and you know deadlifting like three times my body weight for for reps. You know,
and it didn't hurt me. I can't say that would be the case. But I also titrated the calories in that I wasn't really at a calorie deficit. I lost a little bit away, so I guess by definition I was at a calorie deficit now for people to think about. Games. I want trying to gain weight. They would think that the ketogenic diet that eight thousand and ninety percent fat would not be enough protein. Believe that the ketogenic diet shines when you are in a calorie deficit, I my mentor Cancer work Tom safer. It had published a study showing an unrestricted kita. Genic diet can actually promote cancer growth in a in a brain, tumor model unrestricted meaning too much calories yeah. They were feeding mice, a sugary, kidded, genic formula that was on the market at the time. Well, it was a sweetened, I'm sorry, Sweden, Kita Genic form with hydrogenated fats and other things yeah. It was it. I suite with maybe with asper team or side, so they they might
tend to over, eat it and when they over eat it, it creates a plethora of metabolic abnormalities and and you also get those same Adam rallies when you overeat carbs, you didn't see. Here's me being just as a side note, how much does it drive? You guys crazy. When you hear about this fat acceptance thing or fat is healthy. The fat is so much of this going around you that write massively over obese people, they're trying to say it's. Okay, it's fine you're others for ball players. Right, I mean by definition they're pretty healthy. I mean they. They left, they train metabolically the blood work. Looks it have guts but they're not I like surprise you with my answer. Ok, so We talked about this earlier I'll, take the heat, I'm a libertarian. So if somebody says I'm fat and I'm happy- and I, like my life,
and I know what the risks are, then I say knock yourself out. I've I've ended up before the judge will make somebody else happy. But now the problem is: if, if you complain about being fat, then you got to some about it. Otherwise, you're not gonna have any patients goes back to the discipline right, but you can be fit but fat yet that you 'cause, you have morbidly obese people like I said if you lose ten percent of your body weight, there's, there's overweight people who run marathons treasure you can tell me there not in shape yeah. Ok, I know for sure it's just you're, just carrying extra weight, I mean look at Daniel, yeah he's got obese, these he obese, but here's. Cindy's fat piece, don't come get me Dan, Daniel Fart, steep Ameo chick. He would more than forty pounds over his fighting weight as a light heavyweight champion and he was actually heavier than steep pay. But- and and it served the practical function. Mine yeah yeah yeah, but that is the performances
not the same thing as aesthetics. Let me tell you what I meant shape. What I look like that I looked amazing you felt like sharing. I felt like sharing it ready to pass out right, like literally for me to stand up, was I remember, being on the couch, and there was a stupid. Some show on get on violin dot com There was a stupid show on tv and the remote was like this goes back to meet. There was a remote over there like five feet away, I said, and the whole show 'cause. I just didn't feel like getting the fucking remote so isn't it ironic 'cause. You look so good like when you jack, like that, you look like fucking run forever break through walls. There is threshold, like you, know some of the like Ray Williams, who is the world's best powerlifter? I mean he Obese, dude, squats legit, one thousand and eighty pound,
This is not an issue that with power lifter, so a good percentage of them. I carry around a lot of body fat. It's not as much as you would think anymore, like in the Super heavyweight. Yes, because like, for example, the I p F, which is kind of the IOC, recognize Powerlifting Federation and I competed they're cut off for super heavy weights to sixty four. So if you're going to be a super heavyweight as well just be three hundred and fifty, you know who's that Dude Jamie, that's Ray's best rated them with a bar band, dude. That's he's a be shot right, super nice guy Blaine Sumner another one but like when I hit my squat record of six hundred and sixty eight at two hundred and five pounds I mean I was pretty good shape for that. But for me to get to like eight percent body fat, no problem for me to get from eight percent, and I'm calibrating so, but for me to get to from eight percent to three percent. So fucking nightmare your body, really get down to three on calla. Yes, I think that would be if you floated
there are no actual accurate measures of body fat. That's the that's! Why it's not really like relatively within themselves. Their access dependa, pawn hydration. Well, people are factors, yes, so people not to make too much of a side tangent, but people look at Dexa Dual X ray absorption technology and they say: oh that's, the gold standard decks is actually really finicky like. I remembered Xing rats and studies that we do it in duplicate. So we do it twice, and sometimes you have like differences just deck the same rat twice depends on the machine, your hydration status, because water, if you want a game, you know the best way to gain eight pounds of lean body mass within five minutes, Deck then drink a gallon of water go back to next, the other decks so you'll be eight pounds lean body mass heavier. You can impress your friends because it took. The model, more lean body mass. It's a two compartment model same thing with calipers. It's only measuring your amount of fat tissue. So anything, that's not fat is lean body mass
So, if you guys are using that to track progress, if anybody use that to track progress, it's only accurate relative to the measurement, so your calipers mean nothing for what your Dexa measurement is going to be, and vice a versa but the change like if I'm dexing, if I'm Calibras, consistently at ten percent and then it drops to eight and then seven and I can be relatively confident that I'm losing body fat same thing for Dexa, but you have to do at the same time a day same hydration status, all that kind of stuff and I don't really use Dexa because people in order to get accurate you'd have to use it like every day for it to be actual relative. You use, pictures right so when he was dieting and got to a certain point. Like I looked at him as ok, yeah like stop there, but He would go for another and and get to a level where I he looked very gaunt. I mean you looked yeah. What looks good there like seeing him in person like I know this personality wit was changing. I mean that's kind of freaky disgusting
looking towards the end and men people who maybe follow the sport but don't compete, don't really realize what the difference between five percent or six percent and three percent is yeah so that separates the compare. Pictures from the that's, your bros online they're really fighting evolution at that point because your body is trying to give close to starvation. Literally, your body is trying to keep you from doing that. So, like you think about food, all the time you actually become so a friend of mine, Chris Foss, who, he's a professor. Now he was doing his phd at the same time as me, and him by the friend a doctor, Jeremy Lin, a key and Dr Linda Russo, Chriss, wife. Chris, was doing a contest prep and I prepped him for the show and it was a six month study of he's a natural body, butter, so drug free- and he looked at the hormonal responses, his weight, his body fat and even like measures of mood. Chris
like the guy, was a beast yeah like to sixty years on. I mean not all natural drug free, bodybuilder, two twenty in the off season, but one idea because, okay, he did look like a buddy. He is a big guy. He's like a very mellow dude by the end, move measurements for measuring, like that of a psychopath. Yeah it changes your mood, his lunch, the Basel metal round fighters who, like they get when they get that lean it's just like he could barely talk to you, yeah yeah, well think about think about, like they're, actually like trying to peak for a fight. At the same time they feel the most ship it's ridiculous, they're so focused on cardio. They came, I'm not wanted to send to a they're they're focused on just dehydrate yeah and and make them that way. I've seen some of the the protocols us there's some good ones out there, but some of the stuff I've seen like wish. I could talk to somebody that in that role, because it's so it's almost a science, it's so dangerous to, and it's really you can only do it three or four times and then your body starts to reject it, and these guys have to go up in weight like you were, taught,
well, you splain to you why yeah guess what happens when they go away? Sometimes they start crushing it yeah they do. They do much better, so testosterone strewn gray and when but his his requirements, requirements is calorie. Arnold was like twelve hundred. The crazy thing is so they've been some critics of my kind of you metabolic adaptation, the body self defense system, full full disclosure, some people criticize about they say well. If you look at metabolic adaptation, it only explains it's only a fifteen percent adaptation relative to the the whole adaptation, and but if you look at Chris's numbers, I think on average, that's probably right. On average an average person you take somebody trying to get really lean or someone who yo YO diets or somebody who crash diets- and now you know, if again is proportionate, if you challenge your body with something extreme, it's going to respond in an extreme fashion. So every case
we have our natural bodybuilders and there's about ten of 'em. Now who look at their contest, preparation and coming out of it, and I use them to just 'cause. This is the realm. I grew up in shows that their hype again at by the time that they're at stage, hypogonadal mean they're both test tossed know. Their testosterone is clinically low, yeah. Naturally, and these are guys like me, I actually run I actually like have a pretty naturally high testosterone level like when, every time ever since I'm sixteen years old when I've got tested, I've been like over eight hundred. If I'm eating enough, when I was at contest, I was under three hundred. This is part of how your body fights you. Your body does not want you to be that lean, but if you're kind of raining this back into the discussion. This is why talk about why it's so important to pick something that sustainable for you isn't into cool, because if you do this shit, where you yeah, no diet or you don't come out of it appropriately. It will fuck you up. I mean we've all. I think females, especially in a lot of track record,
I've worked with a lot of females now because, especially in physique sports, there's a lot of really bad coach starvation diets for women. It's it just messes the reproductive cycle too right yeah having periods, yeah yeah, which I'm going to in of itself doesn't seem to have memory. What is that no menstrual cycle yeah, so doesn't really in of itself, seem to be a have negative health consequences, terms of longevity or disease, or anything like that. But yeah I mean if you can't get pregnant, I mean that's right deal for some women, but what what that? What the women don't want to hear is you may have to get some body fat to get that back. You know it around here that, but this is what like I really start with sustainability and then from there I go to okay. What so, if we got what's this table for you now, can we get a little better? Can we do a little more fiber like? I think general. You know I criticize paleo diets, because I think they're validation for their model is absolutely fucking stupid. What causation is that? Oh that's
so the evolutionary validation and the fact that we didn't drink milk and we didn't eat beans. This kind of thing, but coffee, but the question should be what we were doing. The question should be, what makes sense in what is healthy. Now like. If you look at studies on dairy, almost all Show people who take in Derry are healthier, better bone density. Well the body mass low body fat, but it is there are there a lot of people think that there is bad for you yeah, because affirmation begins, but as earlier in the so some some some like clean eaters to think that somehow causes the it actually yeah? weather this protein in Derry, various proteins that alpha lactalbumin or data that can wait initiate an immune response in the body, so I know when I I'm okay with very fat, I can get like you know, hundred grams of dietary fat, but if I'm, if I drink a whey protein, especially at night, I wake up all congested and you know like I have
pure way concentrate, Just like you! Well, yogurt or- and I think it's a spectrum right. So it's not, like you have it or you don't. I think you know there's just a spectrum. An bovine protein is kind of viewed forint body I mean once it enters the bloodstream. It can it's only if it enters the bloodstream, because if digestion is working properly, you're not going to get any of that in the bloodstream, it's all going to be chewed up into some of the giant ripe. Some of it makes I mean like in salons of fifty amino, and if you take enough insulin like you, can basically go hypoglycemic if you really convenient. That's why you inject five thousand six hundred and eighty one, eighty one it doesn't, not sure I teach right, yeah so yeah, so even something that you know Dmv Las anymore can get through. So this term lactose intolerance
well. That's that's actually something that's actually the sugar yeah. So this is an issue with people's individual dietary, some people have like, IBM sensitive sensitivity where they, if they've, got some kind of leak but so normally your injunctions are tight. Ok, so your small intestine or your test until like kind of fingers and they pick up if this I'm really general yet, but they tight unction- is a little anchor that holds if something's dysfunctional with that that can allow certain nutrients through the wall and and that will initiate a bodies immune response. Holly is celiac engine. She so she has gluten it like. You will know it because she will have a huge inflammatory response, but in people who have normal digestion that just doesn't happen going back to the the The real thing when I was going to say is, even though I disagree with their relevance. If you told Maine, ok Utah,
their general recommendations. Limit sugar eat more whole foods in higher protein. I think in general, that's pretty good recommendations for most people, I just as you said, I'm anti bulshit, so I'm not going to let you make claims about why something works when that's not why it works right. So when we look at like the differences in Dietze, like. I think what I would say generally to people is here's the great news. As far as fat loss goes and health mar if you want to lose weight if you eat, if you control your calories, so you can calorie deficit. You eat enough, team because protein up spare lean body mass and is thermogenic so it is your energy output um, you can kind of do whatever you want with carbs and fats and whatever you prefer annual, still lose the same amount of weight and get about all the health benefits. But it has to be something that you can sustain, because if you can't sustain it, you're going to put all that weight back on that's what the research data shows.
So God loves sustaining it, meaning having a balanced diet that you could stick with verses for life, some sort of coward deficit. That's really only a temporary thing to lose weight right. So now, obviously you don't! You can't eat the deficit forever right, because then you would starve yourself to death right. But the body corrects that, like you as you drop body weight, your metabolic rate slows down your not a calorie deficit, for when we talk about losing weight and maintaining it right so eating in a maintenance so eating basically. The behaviors you use in the style of dieting. You use! You have to continue that if you want to maintain it. So if you like, Kita Genic, like you like Ketogenic, you like eugenic and I think you're a big. Fan of meat. If you can sustain that, you know like people out, there is, oh, my God, people probably you're going to get cancer and you're going to do this and you can do most of those health benefits are just from not having excess body fat, excess body.
And the metabolic dis regulations of a metabolic type syndrome. That's what cause ninety percent of these problems. Ok, now, which is why I get crazy when people say that fat is healthy. Well, well, here's the problem: it's like we have like reactionary. So we have been your set point haven't a reactionary culture, so you see all the time. We had okay, you because when saturated fat, you got eliminate dietary fat and just eat, grains and limit your proteins and we got fatter, and so the reaction that was don't eat, many carbs saturated fat isn't bad. So in fact it is much saturated fat as you can. It's great put butter in your coffee, like no there's good data to show that. The research day that I've seen in my opinion, shows that saturated That absolutely was demonized. It's not as bad as we thought, but
It's if you eat too much of it. It's not great, either, especially with carbohydrates. Absolute absolute value increasing you now you're increasing your liver production of saturated fats as well right when your body gets to a fat burning stage, and then, on top of that you pile on carbohydrates, then your body wants to store those carbohydrates. This way the calorie surplus. Well yeah. Actually, technically you store. That's you sort of yeah because carbohydrate burned of carbohydrates, store right, so carbohydrate, if you say well, what is, if you don't store, call Box. I talk about this my book, because people will go too far to each direction. The say we, you said you, don't you only use your heart, the store, any carbohydrate is actual fat. What we eat zero fat and mostly carbohydrate. Well then, your body, you know your body's, not dumb your body, we you didn't get here today and get through evolution and 10s of one thousand years of hard. You know living by your body being stupid, so
we can ramp up to Nova Lipogenesis so that you can create fat from carbohydrate. If that gets low in carbohydrate intake gets high enough essential fatty acid, There was a research study or a meta analysis done by Kevin Hall, who's an NIH researcher, and they showed that if you equate calories, You get a small extra benefit from fat restriction versus carb restriction on fat loss, so you about twenty six grams extra fat loss per day calories equated protein equated. If you restrict fat versus carp now before everybody goes crazy, that's probably to a little bit of inefficiencies in ramping up to noble, I put genesis because there's it takes energy to move that system, but twenty six grams of fat loss pretty to me is not a physiological like. I don't care about that that that's nothing compared to okay, if you like,
low carb better, don't worry about losing extra twenty six grams of fat if you like, glow car better and you can sustain that then do low carb. One of the things that we seem to be getting into here is the difference between losing weight and optimal performance and then optimal performance mentally and hormonally Ali versus optimal performance physically in terms of like athletic athletic pursuits. Here's something else and the type of person, whether it's you know you don't want to put a teenager. That's you know, playing football on a ketogenic diet. Why would that be? Well? maybe if they're over way that that could be beneficial, but I think it would decrease his performance unless he goes through the Keto adaptation phase. But there's a lot of the at When you're a teenager, your, I would say, your carbohydrate tolerance is very high, just as in my mind, mine was very high. I could be huge plates of pasta that I could not eat now. You know I just simply a couldn't so
I think, as we age I would say, are carbohydrate tolerance decreases with age, because our metal ball, machinery is not as hungry for for glucose and mean we're set up and hormonally are insulin. Sensitivity is not as high a glycolytic pathway is, are reduced things like that that happens as a consequence of age, so it makes sense that as we transition into age for longevity and for health span, maybe not life span, but health span. Carbohydrate restriction makes sense in even in some cases the ketogenic diet makes sense. You know, but if you look at the ok, so I have two pushbacks on that and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. Oh I kind of am, but if you look at longevity data, the actual longevity data people who restrict fat versus carb live longer, like that's what a new style it came out, showed but again there's a scribing it as also a means of because people put
wait at the age where the low carbon with Q Genic Diet that becomes a practical strategy to create a sustainable calorie deficit for losing weight sustaining that and also if you elevate, ketones overtime, a lot of the new research. That's coming out, you know over the five years. Ketones is not just a superior source of energy metabolically, but it also has at the genetic effects on the body it activates gene pathways that can confer resistance against oxidative stress s that longevity pathways anti inflammatory pathways in the context of a deficit, no, not contact the death you could feed ketones, take a ketone supplement and a Actividades Just- simply elevating beta, hydroxy butyrate functions as a hit inhibitor and can activate if you will hygiene programs that can confer resistance against many different things. Oxidative stress pathways,
and also activate or suppress an inflammatory pathway, that's linked with many latest chronic diseases, an auto immune pathways. It decreases the activation of the N l r p three implements so when you're talking about people living longer, you're talking about that at the ology study. That was like a questionnaire of people, what the aid over a long period of time, highly criticized studies and yeah and there's a lot of co founders, which is why I'm not a fan, it's hard to say it's hard to say that it. The study shows that if you eat carbs versus fat, the you you I didn't say one was cause and effect yeah, but you sort of cited another piece of evidence, because I don't cherry pick, because if we're going to give the argument, I want to give the whole argument I was playing devil's advocate. I don't think that, necessarily if you eat a low carb diet, it's going to cause you to live a shorter life. I don't believe that, but I think it's important to put all the data out there, because what I see a lot of is people just cherry picking and I
take those studies they get, they become there's tons, and everybody wants to say that you know eat carbs, you live longer and low fat diets are going to kill you and then it just gets. Crazier is why some of the animal work? I mean lean and I both did animal work. I think some of the animal work is almost more reliable because you have an inbred strain of Anna. And you have very tight control if you have genetically identical freely, human, you know is doing many different things and there's genetic variability, but with animals, It may not always be predict if it's in but not always predictive, and I think some of the the data eye
read some of the human studies and become more confused but going back to the animal data, I am a much more comfortable with some of these outcomes for animal studies. So one thing I want to bring up that, I think is really important. Is we have, I think, we're all adding to this point. People out there think that there's like this perfect diet, that's going to cure everything all over else, the fact the uncomfortable in the fact of the matter is that of one diet is an. I don't know the specifically, but my guess is: if one diet is a better for cancer, it might be worse for heart disease or if one diet is better for in some resistance, maybe it was for cancer. What is better for cognitive performance might be worse for athletic performance. We don't we don't know yeah. So that's that's kind of where is your space at and this is why back to those big picture, things of most of the health benefits just come from having more muscle, lift weights, people that lift weights you. If your
debating about diets and you're, not lifting weights. You are fucking missing the point. Okay, because that is so, I curse, so that's yeah, yeah yeah! I do it on Twitter, you've seen me so it's we could emphasize your point. Yes, so I'm a get out of it. Also the awesome so of somebody criticize me for one day as like you know, what's great about my job, I can say fuck as much. I want to know what's going to fire me, so that is great, but the big picture things lift weights, create more lean body mass, be active. That's a huge thank even if you're overweight, if you're active, you're, you're going to live for on the whole you're gonna live longer than than person, who's inactive. All, and then control your weight. So if you can, even if you can get to a normal weight and maintain it or sorry, nobody, and maintain it or if you're, a high body fat, if you can get to, lower body fat and maintain it.
That's ninety, that's ninety five percent, the battle. All this other stuff is five percent that we're worrying about that we're going back and forth. And that's why I don't wanna miss the context, because when people like a I'll pick on him, because he last four is Gerry tells, but I'm I'm I'm I'm happier we got down to this. I'm gonna just entered a hay on everything. Okay, when people like Gary Taubes say things like carbs are are are causing obesity, just carbs. You create this problem where, if people don't like eating high fat, diet or low carb diet- and they can't sustain it, they just feel like they're, big failure and they just quit. Because what's the point of carbs are causing fat and I can't stop eating carbs we're going to have a really hard problem. Well I know what you're saying discipline it's important. I just sounds like nonsense, but I think my point is that if you give people flexibility, it usually improves adherence
and you're talking about from what I can point of view, coaching people right and what I would like to see is. I would like to see a diet. That's protein and calorie considers a study, protein calorie controlled. If anybody knows of one that was done this, let me know protein and calories and then let people self select higher carb or higher fat. What do you prefer? let them self select and see how well they do, and I bet you would see- improvements in appearance in both groups. Dom you were going well, I think a diet strategy that controls your appetite and does not have your appetite controlling you, which, I think is it. Please check with the key to genic diet. That's also, you know one! That's a well formulated one, that's controls! You know that fiber and adequate protein is a strategy that allows you to be far less fixated on food because you're not as hungry, and you could decrease your meal frequency so if I know: there's people out there that are probably busy people ceo,
the companies, students or whatever that simply do not have time to prepare an eat meals to when they get hungry. So by reducing meal frequency, you can increase your productivity and I think you're kind of coaching, your body to be a better fat. Thing I think, there's definitely benefits. So when you are on a ketogenic diet, you are storing more fat, but you are burning more fat, so think about your adipose tissue as little bags, which fat coming into them and fat leaving them and the fat oxidation pathways are elevated and I eat a ton of fat at night before I go to bed, I am like some people, carb load, I'm like fat loading at night and I'm pulling off those fat store during the day through my others.
I think about it like that, so, instead of just you know, carving up at night time, I I tend to, I would wake up hungry, I would probably dump insulin and and then wake up with a hypoglycemic, cravings and mill the night. If I did that, but I time restricted eating, Yeah, like today, like I'm fasting and most days, that I want to be as productive as possible. I will not have my first meal, which would be typically a ketogenic meal around four hundred pm, and so what time do you eat uh. I will start I'll. Do a small meal like at work and then I have my big meal at about seven hundred o'clock, maybe seven hundred o'clock and then snack throughout the night and maybe eat within. You know I started eating at four p pm and I finish eating at about ten p pm, so you basically start eating at the end of your day, yeah so. And that's very liberating for me so and
didn't even know this was possible, but that's like back ten years ago I didn't know it was possible to have that amount of control over my appetite and actually feel as lucid, Anas, Energetic an be able to you know get wood lane into deadlifts with him and and actually maintain my my performance and my strength in the gem? I don't feel like I'm an outlier either as possible. So I think that anecdotes are good because it does cause us to look at things all right, but I can tell you like so, for example, I usually four times a day and I hate protein all right now, I'm in a gaining phase, so I'm trying to purposely gain weight. Hopefully some lean body mass and coming back from an injury so try to regain some early by Yes, I'm eating about four hundred to four hundred and fifty grams of carbohydrate. Today there were times when I'll go seven. Eight, I won't eat and I don't really hungry so I mean there's sixteen hours. I don't know, but I don't think I would I go some some
I'll sleep and I'll wake up and I'll go one thousand two hundred and thirteen hours like I'll go in sometimes, and- and I don't do you get hungry now, but again, that's just think that is just uh. Well, if you look at some of the things that I'll disagree with the idea that in soon these big fluctuations and you become hypoglycemic in that causes? Overfeeding feeding and some people that's the case, but most people if they're eating a especially with a higher protein diet that doesn't usually happen. I want to add that the population most people are not body builders and the population of of people that lane mostly communicates with our on the border of being metabolically elite and also have a very high carb tolerance, if you're a bodybuilder with a large amount of lean body mass you, You are pretty much metabolically set up to be a very have a high carb taller. So, the general population is not like that. So, let's talk about carp, tolerance, because that's one thing that will disagree on
I think that people are more or less tolerant. I think that people have sought florin faster metabolic rates, so if you have faster metabolic rate, you'll be more to carb, tolerant by default, because you can just tell me, calories. I agree with, but in a bodybuilder, that's two hundred and twenty, whatever it's gonna, be on average yeah. Now, if you get somebody who's on the ketogenic diet, they're actually, by definition of carb tolerance, their carbohydrate intolerant, because if you challenge them with a bolus of glucose, they click they can't clear so, but that that doesn't that's that's just because what they're adapted to right, but they're fat adapted yeah, a great a great. So I I the first experiment biology we ever went to this is why, Even scientists get this so wrong, sometimes because getting it so in their echo chamber, they don't bother to look outside of it going to the gym when we first met and went lane stopped and had a huge meal which to me I was
you still wouldn't be doing we're going to stop and eat blueberries for those key. It's a big heavy fatty meal before we did. The gym is the bathroom but five times, but you know I didn't. I forget I think I did eat, but it was very abnormal for me to go eat all the meal happy meal on the way that Jim Hall is like you, she hates training, FED. She wants to be fasted. She feels better that way. The individual differences right, the individual differences might have it part of it, maybe you're, just adapted to that as well. What you're used too? So maybe a psychological thing, but some people may just do better that your blood is diverted to your digestive system and processes and that's less blood, for the so so you're you're expending energy to digest break down, then simply is that there is been pretty defunct, really yeah right. But something happened. I mean it's just a fundamental, because your logical concept that you are diverting blood resource too
yeah job flow, in particular java scientists to question. Even those theories we hold most to be true. Neil Degrasse Tyson said that yeah it's, so I think a small meal actually can be beneficial and some, but it's not like using no. I was able hydrates during the meal you're, not using the press. How's, it been debunked all that they see that performance isn't worse and that you don't like- is the what other foreman specifically there's. There's, not a box. There's a limitation of blood flow because you eat something to the muscle. There's a limitation of blood flow to the muscles. Okay, but again some people just do better if they're faster, have small meals. Again, it may be a psychological thing, but I like to feel like I've had a lot of food and I'm fully fueled a long training session, but some people, what kind of training no like if you're doing-
something like that what's in a very controlled via, but if you were doing something like might be different yeah if you were doing jujitsu, but I don't know you would probably throw up- maybe I don't know I did. I did it very briefly awesome so like I did it very briefly. Informally, also really can't have a big meal and then go train you get fuckd up. I probably have to run to the bathroom every few minutes. I can't work on a grant. I can't we're not supposed to talk about guns, but but if I go to the range not so fast, my only talked. We talked a lot before I get. My groups are tighter. I could better control, If I go in and a FED state, I'm just not as focused on my vision. My vision is not as acute if I right after a big meal as if I'm fast at sixteen hours, but this is This is the hard thing with anecdote, because we can't tease out whether or not that's that is an actual physiological thing or whether you just feel better and you think you'll do better. So you do better because the brain unbelievably powerful? There was a study in I'm. I may butcher it because I can't remember exactly, but they
it took people who had legit allergy problems and they gave them a sugar pill and they said this will improve your allergies. It should not have done anything over half the people reported, their symptoms got better and thirty percent actually we physiologically got better because their brain was telling them get better like it's pretty crazy. So that's part of probably the best diet for you might be diet. You can stick to. It just feel real positive about right because you feel like this might be someone's going on with a lot of this low carb stuff that people say they feel so fantastic because there's some sort of a placebo effect, that's possible part of it is to is that's why animal studies are give me more confidence when I can look at at rats or mice on occasion die and see an object to bowl. You know objective increase or decrease in a parameter than I again confidence, but here's the thing, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. If you feel good about it, does
great, but just don't, try to get on twitter and tell everybody all you're going to gain fat deficit because you're eating carbs right up, if you go to which doctor and you really believe it might actually help you, yes, yeah. One of the number one characteristics of cancer survivors is that they're actually They have a belief in God. They believe that they're going to make it through that now some people cause or effect some people may argue, but legit we argue well, they believe in God, and so God is helping them. The other argument to that is they believe that they're going to make it through there and so they have a whole lot better likelihood of doing it. So Thank you, people and believe in the key and believe in God, and I think great thing and that's why they they have. Remarkable, I I believe that you know. Well, I I I'm a person of faith, but I also believe that if you have faith in the methodology to at the the pay
actions that have communicated with me that actually believe that this pro approach is going to work and then they reach that actual therapeutic state of gauging diet have results. That kind of defy what you would expect scientifically. So I believe it's work. King physiologically an also psychologically there's a Muno psycho therapy. Immunology so Brain can actually control many different physiological process including our immune system, and that that is something that is underappreciated understudied and that really needs to be studied in terms of eating a large meal before training. Surely your body to use up some of the resources to digest. You don't think that it's blood flow to the muscles she think well in debunked, they show that the blood flow to the muscle is not limiting if you've had a meal before you train okay, now the thing is, but some people don't.
That is a very individual thing it pro. It may be a psychological thing with me: I'm not I'm not. I understand that I'm an idiot like everybody else out there right. So I'm subject to bias and all psychological influence like anybody else, but I just use that to I advantage if I feel good about it. Why would I not do it now, if you train in the morning to do that like heading to the gym first thing in the morning holy tries to stop me because that I usually go to the bathroom for like five times, but all a little bit less in the morning. If I'm, if I'm gonna go straight in and train of, But one of the things that going back to that so many scientists missed. Is that context, like most people, Miss Context, but scientists even miss context. So
the first experiment, a biology study first, is from a biology. Symposium we ever went to. There was a poster with a fat people, a Keygen, a diet or they fed them a high carb diet and then, at the end of six weeks they challenge them with a hundred grams of glucose and look how long it took for them to clear that glucose, the key to jadeite people would have been worse than like type two diabetics at clearing glucose. Okay, words, people eating a high carb diet. Could it just fine right now, if you, if you just look at these number, says DR all my gun, your diabetic, no that's what they were adapted to and I challenge the person with the poster I said, and he for all you could eject night people who hate Bay on Twitter. I defend the key didn't die when it is time to be defended. I said to the girl: if you had fed a high fat meal to these people, you would have seen the same thing in reverse. If you have a high fat meals people,
who are on the Keto, Genic Diet and then a high carb diet. You would have seen really elevated try, so Glycerides, ldl cholesterol, be ldl, cholesterol, call, microns, and people who are carbon acted because it wasn't being cleared, because that's not what your adapt but people missed that whole context. Lane has a good analogy in his book that book if you have a factory military factory, that's making planes and then it has to switch over to making ships right. So you it takes a lot of time to change sort of all. The processes that take please and the same thing is sort of happening. I mean you're, giving your body a different fuel source, so it has to ramp up the enzymatic machinery, the pathways, the regulatory pathways and and the transporters even to basically use those.
Tools, yeah misunderstanding of that, or at least an ignorant as one of the more frustrating things online. When I hear like nonsense, people these internet air quote experts talking about the negative aspects of the ketogenic diet that they tried it and they felt weak. Like what do you mean you tried it? You tried it for a day, I tried for three days out for a month like the out here, you go out at our tatian yeah. It's a lot like when it when you review a study- and I think you have a study in your book actually that those in the gym. You basically say the ketogenic diet can hurt your performance in the gym, so any reference, a race, walking study I think they did the ketogenic diet for, like three weeks, like that. So I think we came back around and said that it's probably fine once you're adapted yeah yeah jobs to admit what like, what's the time period we're talking about for me, I didn't, not feel myself after it took me about three to four months.
But then you got to realize that there's a learning curve to doing the kitty, Jennings Diet right. So if I go back to my notes, I mean my performance in the gym and just general well being took about three or four months. Do you use an app to tell us or anything I did my fitness pal and stuff, but I ain't just know: I'm a creature of habit, so I we basically just by the same food all the time- and I can I measure things on scales and stuff, just as a scientist, so I can look at some powder on a scale and do two hundred and fifty Milla George Miller minus ten milligrams, so I've measured things out to where I can look at a plate and basically give you the macro is pretty tight. And that's I don't know, if you do that, you have you ever done Keto for long periods of time, I've done it before yeah and he hasn't been Keto, adapted though I would argue. I have ketones in my in my but but I just want to do it for about
weeks. So you could argue that didn't do it long enough, but my thing is like all my blood markers are healthy. I didn't see so I did Keto at maintenance and I didn't see really much improvement in anything. Everything kind of say, the same now. What would feel different energies when was it? What year was this would have been? Probably after my bodybuilding show before I got back into power lifting so it would have been some time like two thousand and twelve. Did you like post about it, and I want to go back early 'cause? I didn't. I didn't want to really like get the of anybody on me at the time now I'm trying not old and can take, or so I just don't care that much anymore, but I didn't my performance didn't go down that much in the first few weeks it did, but then it was fine. I just like the flexibility of having some carbs yeah, I like having the flexibility because they might it If I do, if you know popcorn, wait. A minute is higher protein and higher fiber. But you know if
if I was going to commit to it as a lifestyle, then that would be fine. But- unless you're willing to again, if that's, not something you're willing to stick to for life, you have to rethink. If you want to do or not, but there is some benefiting going on an off ketogenic diets, correct I! So if you do a ketogenic diet and you want to stay in a state of ketosis the days that I do intermittent fasting now, which I didn't do like five years ago- I don't necessarily do the kid. I do hype higher protein low carb, but my macros are not heated Genic, typically, not all the time. Sometimes they are but they're different, like you could do intermittent fasting with a card based diet and still get key. You know by the end of your, fast, you could do low carb. You can keep two Kittanning. I actually think it's it's a little bit better to be metabolically, flexible, so I'll, throw in. I tend to eat a lot of vegetables and then throw in some fruits to a few a few days a week
where it may kick me out of ketosis, but during the middle of the day, when I need to be at my best, I pretty much always I'm running a low to moderate key tones during the day, and I can do that with different strategies now with my body 'cause. How much is like you like a ptosis, though at night time, yeah, I'm I eat half of dark chocolate one or two things of dark chocolate and which is maybe one and twenty grams of carbs, and maybe one slash two cup of blueberries and then a big salad and some vegetables, typically green vegetables, when you say it kicks you out of ketosis. So if you measure your blood, your ketones dropped below what level five I typically don't even measure at night, but I wake up in the morning and I might be about point five and then that goes up throughout the day. So middle part of the day, I'm typically run in one between one to two, sometimes three million it,
the the the urine strips are only effective in the early stages, the key to us is that correct yeah, because in the beginning you spill out a lot of ketones in your urine, but, as you increase ketone transporter in utilization over time less of end up in your urine. How much time is that it depends on the person. But after about two or three weeks, you may see less of a color change on the urine strips. Even if you didn't change your diet. Is there another effective method then the pricking the finger yeah. Well, I think the blood you know Abbott Labs, makes HE precision extra. There is the key to Mojo, which I also use. We use in the lab with that Keto. Mojo is a blood measurement in glucose measurement device. That's essentially because abit cornered the market they they basically allow you to check your ketones for a dollar a strip. Instead of you know three or four dollars or five dollars, but it's still pretty.
Finger, it's it's pricking, your finger, I don't use the device. I actually use a syringe and just take a running start and job my finger now because it doesn't tell us, is like you do on your fingers. It's annoying yeah, I'm I'm kind of used to it, but the the urine strip is actually pretty good. Let's marker and the Siemens Multi g will measure ketones and then nine other things like that measure, kidney function and- and you know your blood glucose and things like that. So I recommend it's twenty five cents a strip and then there's the breath a key Tonics meter you blow into it, and it measures breath acetone and The level is also another breath acetone measurement systems about that so yeah and you know, breath acetone highly correlated the fat oxidation. So if your breath, soon as high a? U r burning a lot of fat. So is there an issue with people that are keyed in the state of ketosis? As they get pulled over for drunk driving, what a couple lawyers contact,
there's some cases going on right now and they wanted me to weigh in a breathalyzer yeah breath allies. Just because of the what would you say: acetone, which is yeah? It's a it uses the same technology breath acetone an if you. I know that if you drink alcohol and do a breath ketone meter, you can, in a panic, depending on what meter you're using if you're using a breath, that's a for breath, ketone meter, if you use, if you have a breath alcohol measurement and you're in a state of ketosis. I have not seen that, depending on the device that you'll have a false positive. If that's your question, some devices can it depends on the device. So what one thing I'll I'll bring up, because you said well, you work with these kind of metabolically elite people. So one of the problem, I say what you're doing when you kind of take yourself up to the point where you're sort of getting out of ketosis and then go
I'm back in that's probably fine, but most people aren't going to do it that way they are going to be like. Oh, I had a cheesecake or oh, I couldn't take it anymore and I had pizza whatever that's really bad. So you, he probably people who intermittent fast decrease that window time and over consume yeah on yes, so that that's a big problem. So I see I want to bring up intermittent fasting too, because I think again like, if you so this is an admin fasting show that you the same. Calories are the same. You lose same amount of weight same butterfat. Maybe might be at risk for a little bit more lean body, Mass LOS, just 'cause you're, triggering protein synthesis. Less often,
but you do have a little bit. Lower insulin levels seems like now, whether or not that's again beneficial based on the the research that we talked about likely insulin sensitivity. It sounds as though he was a little bit better again, so there's some technician could do, but people bring up things like autophagy and all information and hi. Again I kind of get the song. If you, if you just calorically, restrict you increase autophagy and you increase or decrease in. Yeah and you don't get. An autophagy is dependent upon the decrease in certain amino acids, glucose in insulin, and you achieve those biomarker states at a more significant level doing intermittent fasting. Then you would and they are the autophagy. Can you send me the the the reason for location, okay and tore and kind aids. You know Lucena, so if you are eating,
various meals throughout the day three times a day like you know your blood seen levels will be. You've always got to keep it in context of twenty four hours. Yeah people people do this with with fat, storage and oxidations. Well, they say well, if you're, if you're fasting, all this time, you're burning so much body fat well, yeah, but then by definition, if you're eating less at these times, you have to eat more at this time. If you're keeping calories the same, and so during that time, post meal you're going to store a lot more fat you're, going to have much higher insulin maybe lower. Okay, all you have a fast metabolism is get your overshooting and those calories have to go somewhere. So that'll do. I'll twenty four hours. You don't see differences in fat loss or fat game intermittent fasting versus non I would be interested in the inflation stuff in the ontology stuff, 'cause again, Kelly, work, restriction in of itself, increases or decreases inflammation increase, the to interestingly enough one of the sugar studies they did with with higher sugar with still calorically restricted. They showed decreases inflammation,
so it's inflammation is largely an issue of caloric restriction or access in you guys think that that's what's going on with this carnivore diet, yeah the people it's hard. Now I think it's a calorie restriction, In fact it's been an elimination diet effect like look at. If I give you a plate of french fries like two hundred grams of french fries, you get a lot of calories from that. If I give you two hundred grams of meat, even a real fatty meat, it's not nearly the same, like you're, going to be much more satiated from the protein like you can only eat so much meat. You know. And again like if you don't want to go too far down the carnivore diet whole. But. The the stuff I see with people yet to. I think you can eat meat and improve your blood markers. Absolutely absolutely course. You can be parked cars and yeah, but but the point
This is like when we get into this kind of zealot of only eat meat. You don't need vegetables, you like there's, there's I mean it's epidemiology, but there's some really tight met analyses of been done. Looking at colorectal cancer and low fiber intake, and I would not be comfortable recommending people not eat. You know enough vegetables and fiber, but I I feel uncomfortable eating a steak. You know our burger without like something like broccoli or salad. I think you negate many of the attentionally carcinogenic compounds that are in red meat and that's a whole nother debate but Thank you. My early He Myron and and cut across yeah crisscross are actually brought that up yesterday. Yeah talk about me, consumption with the vegetables, yes like with brought cruciferous vegetables. Broccoli is in salads, like I don't personally would not eat red meat, so full disclosure I mean I was 'cause. I get accused on twitter of being a carb guy,
and I'm not. I was my research was funded by the Egg Board, the beef or beef national beef. Something another, sorry guys and then the National Dairy Council, so you know full disclosure by the way You guys out there who again you're just taking my word for it, but who think that, like industries, this evil thing that comes in and controls everything. I met one person my entire phd from the funding sources and I met them for literally thirty seconds. They were at a it was an experiment, biology and they said hi thanks. Thank you for the grant. Oh great, great, great job. Thank you. That was it now. I'm not saying that. There isn't nefarious things that can happen, but like what I heard when I like the show with Nina everything was about who funded it and this and that and but that's why they have to disclose those things on papers and also. This is why scientists, science is self regulate,
because somebody is going to repeat your study and if they don't find the same thing, you found you're going to be in trouble. So I get criticized for conflict of interest so see that on social media and things so I need, I should probably say I am not a medical doctor or even registered dietitian a peachy scientists so don't take. My word is medic full or nutrition advice you are research- is funded not only by the Department of Defense, an office of Naval research, but also by companies that actually developed ketone food products and also excited kitten supplements, and our university owns the rights to those patents. I don't have any products myself our come. We have a company ketone technologies in kit on nutrition, as the information website But at this time we have no products, but the university licenses are intellectual property and products are made out of
and I get patent royalties and I put the patent royalties back into our research so buying various exogenous ketones. Products that are on the market, can come back and help support the science in the application a justice can is out for him. I I don't I you know, I tend not to state that, but I get called out for not stating that, so I think it's important doctrine. He's. Actually writing a chapter in my new book. So we're going to have a chapter about the kinetic diet if you're going to do it. This is how to do it right. So the new book fat last forever shameless plug, and he said I just want all the money that I make from the book to go back into the lab So nice, like that and there's a lot of Longo, has a similar with pro lawn with his line too. I know his profits. He you know the profits that he takes. He puts nope, nobody unbiased anybody that says there are is full of crap. We
have our biases will have things that we think work better, not sure, but I think the fundamental if you meet a scientist- and hopefully I equip myself well in this- and I think DOM does as Well- is that one you have an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out. And to you care more about getting the right answer than being right. When I went to do my phd, I was eating eight meals a day. I was eating three hundred grams of protein. I was looking for more reasons to eat more protein in it more frequently when I left my Phd eight miles. A day and a little less protein and less frequently and and because that. Factory to the yeah I was eating five hundred grams of protein a day I was eating like two or three Alan London, broils and washing it down with a product metrics with Hmb, in it like in between meals like back in there.
Dearly, ninety here, for those reasons, legal who knows the course I just it well actually well the cool thing about my research. Was it change the way actually change the way was mon, but I just I I doubled my by coming in, but I said I looked at the research data like either. I believe this or I don't, and if I believe this I can't justify X Y z right. Thank you. Can I go back to the epidemiology studies when in regards to colon rectal cancer there, haven't been any studies on people that just eat meat, though right you're talking about people who eat meat on a regular basis and- it usually is the standard american diet, a lot of other bullshitin there, sugar, buns and there's tons of co founders and absolutely right. I would be fascinating to see some sort of long term. Studies on someone who's are very strict carnivore diet. I'm really fascinated by this 'cause, I'm seeing all these people have all these benefits, but I am I've got skeptical have a face every step of the way MIKE I'm not now again, if it's allowing them to create a caloric restriction, s right
and somebody says you know what I've tried- every other diet out there- I've tried to high. Fiber and I've tried eating a vegetables, I can't, but I can stick to this right and I can. I can lose some fat Then I want to say: okay. Well, maybe that's the best diet for you. I just know so many people that are benefiting from it. Like you know, and not just the part of it on the podcast, for I know a lot of other people and if they followed by a doctor in collecting blood work along the way I mean those doctors can write case reports. So I'd be glad to assist in a in a case report if people are tracking all their blood markers and doing there. But most of the people aren't, though, going on. Most of these knuckleheads are just eating meat and saying they feel great and there well there's a war on vegetables like sucking strange. Remember that people don't discount psychology. People are very very positively about it, because the flavor of the month yeah I like, and I know, hate towards carnivore. I don't know who the I think us Doctor Baker, Charlie Baker, yeah, one big guy,
but you know like if I even dogs eat grass- I mean my dog. The great you know I would get some cats are: are obligate carnivores, yeah, so cats? Interestingly, are one thing that yeah they don't that there is a car told for them. They don't tolerate it. Well the become obese yeah. But how do you like being cat so the fee? I think the thing is that I'm not, I don't believe in any I'm not trying to sell anyone die I'd like to sell you on the ketogenic diet. I really want to see you do it for like four or five months is to see if you're experiencing the same benefits as him. Pretty obvious. You really haven't done it like whole hog I agree with that to to Leanne. I think I could probably put together a meal plan with Keto cookies, and things like that where you pumpkin cookies, by like my cookies technology, like real food card hang on, I didn't get a genic diet and it was fine. I felt fine
a two month done stuff suffer that much. What was your blood markers they? really change a whole lot like I had. I think some I would consider them in significant changes. Ice I maintained. I about your my Nemours Can you do urine? Ketones are blood ketones, or did you look at my blood. I didn't. I didn't measure those. I know you don't even know if you're really in okay, I disappearance x, and what stage were you in from moderate to high? in terms the modified ketogenic diet. So I would have been not super. I would've been so you barely. I would've been above point thank you so he's eight weeks into it and that's about the point. I was kind of feeling crummy and stuff, but so three well not crummy, but I do not.
To tell you is kicking in yeah, but I was a little flat in the gym, yeah and then start to fill out and it's a learning curve to raise the seat. My thing was: if I can get the set, if I can get the same benefits just by restricting MIKE always in keeping our protein to you and I love same benefits in terms of cognitive function in terms of okay, that's science. I would say I mean we study, you could look at pub med everything from polycystic ovary syndrome to acne type, two diabetes type, one diabetes! Now, that's a little bit controversial genetic Metabolic migraines, you know a whole host of neurological disorders simply because beta hydroxybutyrate is I believe, sort of from. There is an objective truth that it's a superior mental. Fuel. How do you define millimolar levels in your blood? That's a significant amount of nrg in your blood that your tissues. Can you? How are you defining severe metabolic fuel?
The Delta g of ATP Hydrolysis in the heart is enhanced, so essentially you're making more ATP for a given amount of oxygen in various states. Your metabolic rate could be slower. Maybe you are more metabolically efficient, so you're more but metabolically efficient, potentially, but I don't think in the context of fat loss, but it's also enhancing insulin sensitivity and simply feeding ketones independent of carbohydrate. Fiction increases fat oxidation in the mall so that those have been published, there's bits that there's been studies to look at like a key digitech diet versus a donkey, Dick higher carb diet, and they show that, basically, by going to the gym- and you reduce overall excellent area under the curve by twenty percent, that was the the number they got. If I was type one diabetic, I would hope
to do the cajun dot, conversant, absolutely okay, and that this is a very controversial. This is not a medical. This is not medical advice, isn't okay, so I actually, when I used to give talks, I would say for these things, but if your type one diabetic you want to avoid the Genic died as much as possible, because there's diabetic something called diabetic ketoacidosis, but, like my student Andrew, Koutnik at Usf, as if you've also got a lot of insulin. He a blog on kid, a nutrition dot, o r g go to it, and it's a very detailed description about carbohydrate restriction and managing your blood glucose and it goes into really into the weeds. If you want to reset so, can I stop it? Okay, elaborate on that. So you used to say that type. One diabetic you wouldn't I did because it was very controversial diabetic you acidosis, so if you are type one diabetic you make, little or no insulin at all ray,
I guess maybe just going back to a normal person when they fast or they do the genic diet. It creases fat, oxidation in the liver and that fat oxidation actually accumulate a co away and that creates ketones, acetoacetate and beta hydroxybutyrate and it curves in the context of insulin suppression. But your you have normal insulin, but it's very low right and then, when your key get elevated. You spill some out in the urine, tell you eliminate them your muscles, your brain burns them and They get really high. You have an increase in in a small increase in insulin release when your ketones get real high and that insulin ramps down fat, oxidation in the liver and decreases ketone action so and there's other things too, but I don't wanna get too much into the weeds, but you you're, a very a normal person, is finely tuned to create to maintain physiological ketones within a certain range with nutritional ketosis we die I type one diabetes, that's completely thrown out the window so without
one being there, the apps, of insulin, essentially creates runaway away kit in your ketones become very high in the context of very high glucose. Exactly so, you have high glucose high ketones. It creates a metabolic disruption. It creates an acidotic state, an electrolyte imbalances and coma and death, which is not going to happen. And people who are healthy, who are just doing a ketogenic diet, but but what is the type one diabetes if you for example, my student using his own example 'cause. I think maybe he was using twenty or thirty. I use of insulin a day and then starts carbohydrate restriction. And even modified ketogenic diet and can reduce that insulin requirement to four hundred and fifty six I use a day so literally knocking it down. You know to twenty percent of
What is a change in her perception when you did not recommend it? Well, there's a Harvard study that basically looked at a group called type one grip on Facebook, there's a group called type one grit and it's got thousands of people who use a low carbohydrate roach, not necessarily a ketogenic diet approach. Some are, but it's very carbohydrate restricted in terms of what a doctor an endocrinologist would prescribe for type one diabetic. It would almost maybe like suicide to some people and low carbohydrate dramatically decreases your insulin requirements and if you look at continuous blood glucose. You know recordings over the course of a seek. Those numbers are much much tighter and that's going to pay huge dividends. The long run when it comes to longevity and health span, and you know the angel for going blind or decreasing your kidney function? You know by these huge postprandial spikes, essentially, if your type
you're, always chasing your glucose with insulin injections, right or an insulin pump if your carbohydrate restricted you're, basically not it's very creating because you're, not you're dependance on insulin. As far far less you know, some controversially, some people have gotten completely off of Ansel. I would not recommend that some people are actually doing that. So the I think, highly, not reckon. I I hear this from critics, critics of the kitchen, a diet, and this is a b s, criticism. The again. Here's me defending the kitchenette dot. Is it will you you'll? Be you become ugh ugh people who are healthy? You have died, but you have to kill us those that is not going to happen because by definition, if you're ketones are high in your health and your relatively healthy, not type one diabetic, your blood glucose is low. It's when both
elevated that it's dangerous okay and if you were a type one diabetic like Andrew, just using a little bit of insulin to get that bass line to get your glucose levels down to a baseline level. And then you use your card. Restricted diet, decrease ketones. While your blood glucose is at a normal basil level that again not a doctor, dot, medical vice. That should not be dangerous right now over the years, because he's a power, lifter and he's a super big dude is like two hundred fifty pounds like you when he goes to the gym. He has learned that he can pull so little bit of insulin and maybe to wrap up its protein or maybe even take a little bit of carbohydrates. But you know the next day he still doing low carb throughout the day, but he's learned to leverage you know as a type one diabetic you you have that advantage right, because you can manipulate insulin for for for body, composition, alterations and things like that, so he he has learned to adjust as protein to maximize his sort of gains
performance in the gym and but none the less he goes from. He went from a strategy he into a strategy that would be to almost suicidal from the perspective of an endocrinologist doctor managing type and to do that level of carbohydrate restriction. Would and now we actually have hard science to show that that can not only can be done. That gets that dramatically decreases the variability of your blood glucose punctuation throughout the day from a weekly perspective and your requirements for insulin whenever you could use less and so on, to manage your blood glucose, that's a good thing. I it's very hard for a doctor to argue against. In type one, I've been using less insulin and keeping tighter numbers. There's no way to argue against that. So if you can fall die so that this gets back to adherents in line right again, so it's one of those things are. Thank you. So I like to see you try.
Yeah. Do it? What not- and you know I would probably be fine, but I enjoy having a variety of foods and I enjoy having a variety of fuels as well. We do, but I'd still like to see you try it like the two, are mutually exclusive, no you're right, but I like having I have a chapter in his book. That's coming out that we worked, you know to it together and just took some of the concepts that I've defined here. Your preferences change as well like in terms of your hunger pangs. You're, not you don't crave. Sugary fruits, carbohydrates, yeah, but you do you like him, yeah yeah. I like him getting like the sugar where's, the pizza. No, I. I don't would you have for breakfast mark where I have for breakfast. I had steak and eggs there you go and the sound of a fence and tells us yes, son of a What is wrong with you? Don't you know spy planes head
serving of nothing? That's a lot of energy. I think again, it's it's! It's it's individual and I want to to point out that if somebody like security, I've had people do keep ginning died. I've had people you know, get ready for shows in the kitchen a time that the like, why did you put them on occasion because that's what they liked? They were there. They had that preference for that and it got to a point where, for a for some people, the calories get solo, fistful metabolic rates that the level of fat restriction it would take them to is probably not great for a whole low levels. So I tended to pull a little bit more carb relative to fat, and so we didn't start out target them is key to Jennifer. By the end they were so you know so you had to resort to something that actually works.
Oh stop it! Stop it basil metabolic because metabolic rate, yet to point you get to a point, especially to get that lean. I mean I'm somebody who's again, more average muscle mass and pretty fast metabolism. Usually I had to get down to like under two thousand calories a day to get to get ready for a show So for me I was, I had my carbohydrates for briefly under one hundred grams of carbs per day in that show prep. I don't know if you remember, but I was cell number. I was sticking your fingers and measuring your glucose yeah in the bathroom. I forget where yeah my theory is that when you do that and you carb restrict and you will you calorie, restrict rather and get down the once that sh it's over, just want to reward yourself as often as possible. So when someone comes along with something like a ketogenic diet and go no bread, no pop fa Q we just don't want to do it you get, but you get the same uh the adherence and they relapse
the same, whether it's key to or another diet rely like regaining weight. Yeah, but is it come again that diversification like pasta and bread, because what is it there's? No no foods We create? They said they have great stuff. There waffles are excellent. They have like a hamburger buns. Now I think yeah it's good stuff is good. I really like I've made sandwiches with their stuff. Um. MAX me out more than anything of key ptosis is just too much meat, yeah, yeah yeah, that's the one that gets Maine again, I I kind of go back to that. The data is very mixed again if we look at the overall data set, very mixed and all diets have terrible endurance right right, a lot
Then that's discipline yeah, but we also now we've done some crazy. I don't want to talk about people aren't disappointed. I really really. I really have a giant hard problem, but how do I know so many discipline people- and I just I feel there. Momentum and vibration and, like I just want to concentrate on what they're doing 'cause all these people. That can't do it. I feel, like that's contagious, you start thinking about people We can adhere to diets it's at fault. I get it for you because it's something that Do what I originally, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna, make it so for you to keep a jack die, clicks and or or eating more meet clicks that that's something that you really enjoy. You like the state you like all state, so I did I love pasta. It may I could discipline easier Translate translator doesn't support to the data, but the data supposed to make discipline easier in terms of the your hero, in terms of your long term here both both so but but hang on hair
of course, some people for some people. This works better because they feel better. They have better adherence for other people if you say now. You've got some people. If you say hey, you could have a cookie, they would, it would screw them they would. They would just go crazy, but for other people, if you allow the more flexibility there here, it's improves. What I'm saying is we need to get people all the options on the table, not demonize anyone, diet and say hey, maybe you try to figure out what works for lack of sounding bro, what works for you and what you can to go from there, but see this on the totally in agreement. I am I am as well, but you keep saying tends to stain. You definitely can sustain more than you do that that the real problem is a giant percentage. The people are weak. I would agree with Well, I guess in the three thousand and forty percent people just quit, give up. Don't do what they're supposed to do don't do as many Wraps is supposed to do. Don't work out take days off just
because they're lazy and those are the people to get off the diet. It's a discipline issues more than anything mark. I think that is really big, so I think various foods that are emerging on the market right now at based systems, Verda Health actually has a great app based system that actually coaches you through that, and I think, that's very helpful. So I think new technologies, food and and we'll make it what increase adherence. Also, when you have a person who knows and understands all the health benefits associated with nutritional, ketosis or just low carb, I think that can be a motivating factor to make them stick to the diet yeah. But for a guy like you who is rational and discipline, but people their self destructive and weak, they're going to keep doing this anymore, need a burger and fries and need to shake one more more more more more, why their choice but then, what's the point of the whole conversation with a part of the conversation,
avoid those mutherfuckers 'cause they're going to drag you down to their mediocre level. I think, but you just dangerous. I think you need to sympathize with them a little bit because I think the market- and I think this is a fruitful area for partners to create technology and foods that can actually enhance it here. It's for us to stop eating strategies. We know about that too. I'm a like. So much of it is what you're willing to accept from yourself. If your you were willing to accept the seesaw saw the obesity thing that so people get on on and off is Yo Yo effect if you're willing to accept that. That's fine, but I just feel like it's a mental state really do as he once you achieve. A certain amount of success start sabotaging themselves. They start they think they start dwelling on the. Fact that they're doing well. But how long can they sustain this? It starts being a big fat mind and that's when like what sustainable, what's the a lot more than you're willing to do. What sustainable
his style, yeah, Bich person out there. That's like no, but you know what I mean. It's like there's a thing like we're: giving people these fucking escape. Clauses we're giving them these these. These parachutes. They can pull, don't pull the parachute. Mother fucker just have a cheat day. That's fine, but don't get off. Your diet have a cheat meal. Fuckin' giant Sunday, throw some syrup on that bitch, get that whip cream going. Do it once, but don't live your life like that. That's nonsense and I think that for Yeah, I wouldn't do anything. You said I think need to hear not this like this, like well. You can't sustain the ketogenic diet, nonsense and use the state confidence with their control if you do intermittent fasting table, if you found for three days that will give you a lot of confidence that you have control over food fasting three days. No diet is sustainable, it's not sustainable over. If you look for general population and you get a bunch of weak pitches,
the other, how many of them are gonna keep it together? How many ever gonna run every day? How many of your work out every day, very, very a few years dealing with out liars, in particular just by what Bure virtue of what you do, how many people are willing to put the work in to achieve this? Not only did she not, how may how many people are going to achieve this physique? Very, very If you rank you so we're talking about outliers were talking about how that's what I I like outliers, I don't like people who it's too hard, I can't hear that. I'm not, it's dangerous, so that is worse than carbs. That's what we talk a lot in the book about behaviors If you change your behavior, that's what I think there's not enough research focused on it. Let's look at the people who actually achieve weight loss and if you look at people who achieve it and keep it off, they do it through many different methods, whether it's low car, low fat whatever it is, but let's look at the behaviors that they make and those behaviors tell us a lot about people. One thing we know is they practice
they weigh themselves very often so they're accountable. They they some form of cognitive restraint, whether it's weighing food recording, macros, ketogenic fat restriction, whatever it is but also they exercise regularly and one there's physiological if it's, that exercise lowers the body fat setpoint that your body will defend so actually as a physiological benefit, but also just mentally. Like you said, I mean I never if you took me back thirty years ago, and you told me hey. When I was ten years old, you said hey when I was like bullied and picked I had no self esteem, you're gonna squat, six one. Sixty eight pounds one day on your back at one hundred and one pounds and set a been broken since then, but a world record, I have been like there's no fucking way, there's no way, but when you have discipline, like you said, and you that doesn't just people say, you should have more confidence that Fucking Porsche advice. Confidence is built through
You set a goal and you achieved you set a goal. You cheap and you don't start out to say I'm going to set a world record an that's your first goal right you I like what will Smith say say you lay Rick is perfectly as you can, let you do it again and you do it again and you do it again and you talk anybody who's successful. In anything, they didn't start out, saying I'm going to do this earth chattering thing right. They started out and built that confidence over years and years of achieving small goals, which then led to their big. Now we're on to something, because I think that the mental state in which you approach anything at work. Routine, a lifestyle that we decide to live your life. That is critical and here's. One of the things people are cynical about. That's probably one of the best sources of fuel is inspiration from other motivated people go to David God, Instagram every day that Savage watch. He met him and yeah is awesome, but go to people like
Jim Cameron Hanes go to people like to the rock like these people. Just do it there's no escape 'cause. Nobody can sustain that. That's not! I don't wanna hear that chit, that's nonsense, and failing is good. It's ok, if you feel like, if you don't fail and you're not going anywhere right back on the horse, you're, not pushing yourself hard enough it. Well, I think when I say sustainability, I mean if it's because everybody has stuff that they find again. You find the corpus, strict diet to be easier to stick to feels better, for it feels better for you yeah and that's fine, but if But if somebody is over here and says, you know what I'm eating a low fat diet, I feel great. My blood markers are good. I have plenty of energy what's wrong with that. Nothing is wrong with that exact but there is one person. Unquestionably exists right, there's a there's, a giant difference
three in all of this, for some people, the peanuts and they die right. We don't know that there's just the bodies just very very differently, very exactly there for the caloric requirements, the the nutritional requirements. If that's what's hard about this right, is finding this one thing that is best for you: yes and objectively and being really analyzing. Your actual physical performance, which very very few people do they kind of say? Well, I feel pretty good, but by what marker right? What's your personal best, what are you trying to accomplish are your heart rate. Are you monitoring you work out put like what are you doing to show that this diet is optimal for you, yeah well, and part of that is like it. You know it's hard to get. That's a lot of money that can be spent to to get data yeah, that's for an individual or part of it is going to have to be. What do you feel good on and what do you feel like is again most sustainable for you cuz, no matter what the people want to diet, but people really want is they want? I don't have to track
and I don't want to sacrifice anything and I want to get to my goal. Well touch it! That's not going to happen. You have to pick what you're going to sacrifice right. So if you say I hate tracking calories, so I'm just not going to carbs, because I I can regulate my body weight that way. Yeah do that. I had a post on twitter that was like when popular twitter post. I said you know: health improvements are largely driven by caloric restriction and weight loss, but if, if you like Vegan, if you like Keto, if you like Carnivore, if you and I just listed a bunch of different diets, and they help you create a restriction, and it keeps you healthy weight, then fuck yeah, hell yeah, like he says I like eating a vegan or not. I'm not interested in losing weight, but Kita Genic intermittent fasting is very, very easy. For me, I love the food and I feel better and when did biomarkers are improving. Can I ask you when you don't need any other reasoning for why you should do it yeah it with him? It works now. Can I,
ask is, when you say diets aren't sustainable. The data doesn't show that we're talking about calorie, restricted diets that overall weight loss diets. Are you talking about dietary choices in terms of like Kita, Genic, diet, excellent question? So it's that, if you lose weight, we cannot keep it off. That is that is. The big problem is that most people are able to lose weight and they cannot keep it off, does one that the self defense system that we talked about is really is way too quickly. Their body gets into the state where it's always trying to regain that way back part of it part of it. Yeah like losing it more quickly. There's debate about this, but I would say that it's you have to create a more extreme deficit to do that, and so you are activating your body self defense system more intensely. If I had to say it that way.
So the rebound is usually bigger as well. So it's it's trying to find a way of cake. Can we get this weight off and then, let's really emphasize to people that the diet after the diet? Nobody talks about this, except for us, the book? Nobody talks about this up by Co. Writer for the the book Peter Baker, and I we spent spent chapters talking about when you go and transition into. Ok, we've lost the weight. We want to lose we're healthier. You have to have the same amount of discipline and intense the two then maintain that LOS B. If you let up. If you let your foot off the gas now you don't necessarily have to be at the same. Caloric restriction level But if you just let yourself come on, I'm going to Kacian I'm going to I'm going to eat when I boot gain ten pounds and everybody knows people like this who they go and they do yeah and you've, just you've, literally just undid months of hard work,
in one week would you say if you could maintain that for a set amount of time say six months, so I think that someone can maintain that weight loss for six months. That's like sort of like the tipping point where they can go on double wheelhouse house right here. So that's a great point. So leptin is a hope. You I'm sure you've heard people talk about left. So when you lose fat left in some scripts, secretion goes down because fat cells secrete it and it's kind of like your body's thermostat body fat. Everybody has like a set point. Their body likes to be so. If you lose body fat, you secrete, less left in hunger goes up. Metabolic rate goes down, Krillin tries to yes and grill and is in opposition to left, and so this is your body like a thermostat. So if you wanna thermostat, if you set at seventy five, goes too low, kick the heat on bump backup goes to high kick the cooling on go back down, left and acts that way with your metabolic rate, in your hunger, when you get down to a low body, fat, leptins low, your body, you have
drive to regain that weight. Your your hunger is higher your bought. Your your metabolic rate is lower left still stays low even years after a diet in people who have kept laid off so there's you would think they would still be a biological drive to regain the weight. That said, and I'm going to go out on a limb here. So any of my scientists who listen in on this feel free to call me on the carpet if you think I'm wrong, but just like obese people, these people actually have high levels of leptin. They have high levels of leptin, but they become leptin resistant, but insensitive, right? If you stay at there is evidence that if you stay to reduce body weight for one or two years did that become your new set point that your body defense. I think what can happen even if you're left and doesn't go under two years, not six months yeah, I was a little longer, okay, a bit longer, so what it is and what's happening. I think it's one of two years. Well, I think it's probably multi facet
because nothing your body is so redundant. Usually nothing is ever one thing. Typically US dinner set point. I think the things that happens is probably your body becomes more sensitive to the left and you have because your leader now I want to talk about performance 'cause. This is a big thing with athlete and particularly in my field with fighters, many of them were reluctant to try ketogenic diet initially because of the the first few weeks pretty rough and it really inhibit training, and you know you get that Keto flu feeling I've ever experienced that too, but overall, is. The key to Jenna died a good strategy for someone, that's involved in some sort of a a row of brutal athletic pursuit like football or wrestling. It can be absolutely and it will be dependent upon being, Keto, adapted overtime and actually
training in a state of ketosis. So you force those adaptations over time. We know the huge anti is glycogen, sparing overtime, glycolytic pathway is will be decreased over time said that may impair anaerobic power output initially, but I think that some most people, something I think a good amount of people could adapt backed, especially if they're taking things like creatine monohydrate and then taking various supplements that can kind of fill that gap to meet the glycolytic anaerobic energy demands. You know, Zac, tighter yeah yeah is that better who holds the american record for the fastest twenty four hour run or twenty four of the fastest one hundred mile run you get in eleven hours and forty minutes insane yeah. He ran one hundred miles. It's fucking just
Johnson said she was fine with him on twitter. One time not not is owned by the way when I was out at all very smart dole, like I think, brought him to my attention and actually we're looking at some of the you know, muscle biopsies from various athletes that are doing similar things, yeah he's on a ketogenic to essentially, but when he does these long races, he takes considerable amount of glucose Tipton yeah. He uses those jails and you know yeah hundreds and hundreds only relatively sparingly compared to a person, that's already like very carb adapted so right. So you just you just want to specially hundred mile race. You tie trade in small instead of drinking fifty or a hundred grams of carbs. Twenty grams of car carbs every hour or two, maybe more than enough.
Say, is your greatest added to correct us. Yeah was that has a podcast city also does a Sean Baker and he made a basically it's mostly me, I mean Zacks diet consists mostly revise, so he's fully catered and he's using glucose. I think glucose, and this may aggravate some of the key to people out. I think Lucas is one of the most powerful performance. Enhancing substances out there really and I'm gonna record Lewis chore that, especially in the context of that were your glycogen levels are being depleted over time even from a training perspective, very small amounts of glucose are anti catabolic, maybe argue anabolic in the context of Certain scenarios, Lloyd, Mayweather drinks, Mayweather drinks, a Coca cola right after he trains. Well. Is there any benefits?
Well I mean you're gonna get glycogen replenishment right like it actually there's there's research out of Lehman's lab years ago. That show that actually sucrose replaces glycogen muscle faster than pure glucose, which is interesting, huh, probably because the the fructose gets taken up by the liver. So the glucose you do eat the liver, doesn't steal steal any of it. It goes your your glucose going to muscle, but I would you know she turns to so. If the signs are very new, but exhaustion is ketone, especially in the in the context of a row back like He Jenny or like a keys to get key gen products is great ketone asters, most of the science behind ketone esters, but there are. You know, ballot applications for the key to insults that are emerging on the market, to like eugenics. I think that the science just over the last couple years has been incredible. I'm emerging on that and I think it's something to watch over time. It's a new fuel source. It's like the
fourth macronutrient right? We have carbs proteins that fats and alcohol yeah, arguably computing I view ketones as they are a calorie containing energy source. So they are one slash four macaroni now. Let me ask you this: if you were doing nutritional consultant for say someone who's UFC champion, and they said you know I want to get on the optimal diet. For performance, you don't think that a ketogenic diet is the optimal diet for performances that safe to say, or you would have individual such a new lesson, offseason thing to it's. It's such a new US question, but the the problem. Is you don't it's really getting off season the in the because of the call you with a fight right, dog yeah, look nice the upon. If you turn down so
I think, based on the research I've seen, I think, you're hard pressed to convince me that the ketogenic diet is worse then, a non ketogenic diet on endurance. I think that's pretty clear and may actually be some benefits depending on the individual as far as repeated sprints or things were, you need anaerobic system, I am not ready to say that acute Jake, that's going to be as good. I think that a non ketogenic diet offers you now. This is where ketone supplements, maybe actually the best thing possible, because you could be using glucose, so you're getting that fuel source and taking a ketone supplement where you're getting that fuel as well, not on a ketogenic diet but taking ketone supplements that. Well again, I don't like it. No, I think more feelers to better see more research, so we'll see what we stats, carbohydrates, maybe amino acids,
I mean you know just basically trying to average all the various substrates that your body can especially under and if we're talking about anaerobic power output, you want to have a suite of different fuel sources, and not rely. You like mad about the term in about flexibility which is kind of use, is quite often, but I think if you, rain and get your body, fat and Keto adapted that provides benefits for recovery. It provides benefit you're, getting. What is the better for recovery in hand you know lower inflammation, lower chronic inflammation overtime. You know chronic inflammation can contribute to insulin resistance, poor like so information, if you're getting concussions, or even sub concussive events. Overtime can actually cause a lot of damage and I
what is the mechanism that Dick decreases information with the kid Jack died as opposed to a non a number of mechanisms? I mean just simply: lowering insulin, spikes and glucose, but the N l, R, p. Three inflammatory, is something that we looked at the this study where actually we used the ketone ester and it's published in the journal, Nature Madison, showing that in bonds to LPS, which is kind of like a steam implement, powerful inflammatory stimulant that it reduces that and suppresses inflammatory pathways for particular pathway compared to can paired to you mean so well with your study, always comparing two things yeah. So so what were you can? What was the control group, the control group for the information, or is
just compare to know like yeah. So young thing, so it's just like a g was he's evil, okay, yeah yeah, so in the context of being in a state of ketosis it reduces in in for matorih pathway, think of it as a hub and when that's activated, you have a host of inflammatory cytokines that flow throughout your body and your brain and causes persistent low grade neural inflammation inflammation in the body that can impede recovery processes, overtime and I that really contributes to to bring health too? So I might be getting a little far ahead of myself, because that is its animal work, but it's convincing animal work looking at a particular pathway, it's pretty well the and before you get to this, is there one? Is there very between low carb versus ketosis in elevation of ketone levels in your blood right, but I mean in terms of the is there a benefit to the queue to Jack, but it
being a state of ketosis. With this reduction of information versus low Carb. I believe there is just by elevating the metabolite been hydroxybutyrate, but I do think even low carb has some anti inflammatory effects. What optimal would be ketosis. I like I said I I I don't think it's going to be optimal for everybody, but I know there's going to be benefits to maintaining low to moderate levels of ketones, for neurological health and also for recovery, and maybe performance lane. You were wincing at the mention of information, more so that so we mentioned recovery from exercise inflammation calorie deficit is a very powerful anti anti inflammatory. So I mean Lane Lane addresses that. Thank you for the card.
Yes, my fellow scientists loans, a look at that, so when the order is because people get it's easy to get the black and white thinking, we hear information. We think all that that's bad! That's bad! So there's some studies that tell us quite a bit about information. Your body actually has an optimal level of information. Too little information is actually bad as well. So if you go first chronic, I was talking about crime. Yes, this is, I think, a lot of scientists. Miss too, isn't it cute. We talk in terms cancer and yet what you versus chronic and how scientists even mess the stuff up, but you. So if you, if you look at studies, of recovery from exercise and muscle growth, I'm focusing on this, but I'll bring it back around. If you give Ibuprofen to healthy people who have normal levels of inflammation, ibuprofen prefer muscle growth. If you give it to,
only people with high levels of inflation. They grow more muscle. So this means that the body for recovery hasn't, optimal level of inflation it likes to be, and there is a a a kind of a a curve here. It's a great loss to inhibitor and paid hydroxybutyrate is also cost right, and so the part of growing muscle and recall he is actually inflammation macrophages, and all these sorts of things are involved in that process. Now, if it gets run away, it's too much. It's not a good thing if it's too little, it's also not a good thing. Andy Galpin did a great job on your show of talking about recover vs adaptation right. So one things. He said, if you do ice pass, you do these sorts of things you. In the short term, allowing yourself to recover faster but you're, also limiting how much adaptation you're going to incur and I love that, because it was people miss the state, they say if you, if you're somebody
in the offseason. If you're trying to grow get more lean body mass or trying to get better at something, it's probably good to let your body like for, like about term, have some information and not in long term, but in response to that training session. But if you're in a camp again, this is where it's context dependent or I'm opposed to getting ready to for a meet, and I'm supposed to be squatting four times a week done that before and I'm so sorry that I can't squat my fourth session, then ice bath or something I'm not worried. Growing. Most of the time I'm worried about getting recovered enough. That go to my next training session, because that is a lot more important for my competition coming up, then, having that little bit extra muscle so in camp, probably a good idea of post season, not a good yeah yeah, I mean, unless again it's all context jewel dependent right like if you start getting so sore that you can only train,
like twice a week, then maybe a certain level, but that points back to that. There's an optimal range of inflammation that your body probably should be in that's optimal for health as well. Now I don't think like doing a ketogenic diet, for somebody It's going to take him out that necessarily, but I always want to give context, because people do these things and they always think it's a as a positive like in terms of recovery. I believe that it can enhance the adaptive process associated with recovery, and I also believe that being indicated in X stay will enhance your readiness, your resilience and your recovery, so from a military perspective to I believe that, and that needs to be validated and study, but something- that we study when I'm sorry to interrupt you, but when you advise this to the military, did they do you put them on a specific meal plan?
two or do they have it's more like. You know how to do that. Grant's words is being studied at a very fundamental, very controlled level, from cells to animal models too. You know human clinical trials going on and and where the data is being collected now, and some of it is taken empirically and anecdotally, from the field or just from various exclusive channel. I guess I would say so that I am coming at it as a biased and I'm kind of speaking ahead of the science, but I do think that science already exist showing that you have the greeter at data. The fact is, just by virtue of lowering information overtime in athletes specially this probably pertains more to interns, athletes to really needs to be studied and and resistance to an MMA fighters, and things like that. So there was a recent study and I can't ever the researchers, damn all send it to you. I had a lot of criticisms of it, but they did show that kitchenette person. I can-
Did you like diet and people who were lifting weights trying to get bigger? There was actually slightly less muscle mass using the ketogenic diet, where you think that would be because of the less protein know they equated protein. I'm pretty sure I want to say they acquitted protein. Now I don't know for sure. So I don't want say authoritative, that could happen, but to stay in key ptosis you're gonna have did they adjust for calories? I believe they did so again. I could be wrong. It's all go back and look and I'll I'll send it to you if you want it, but it is possible like again for every give me there's a gotcha in certain things right. So you like these things that activate different pathways, well part of what stones may signal as a deficit, because, usually you don't have them in a sir plus right. So you know we don't know. If you can like, for example, like a tough guy right like for talk about performance and
everybody here is a g and that's a very by the way. It's such a weird way to pronounce that 'cause, it's auto and phagocytosis, so shouldn't be auto. Phagy but anyway, it's a very rapidly emerging science and Naomi Whittel wrote a book about this and it just it's like a New York Times and that really covers a science, so last two or three years: lysosomal, remodeling and degradation of proteins, but very hot topic right. Well, what gets me is like people who are big on intermittent fasting. They'll, say well increases that off a g but you also. There are also saying you can grow all this muscle and it's going to be best for building muscle, but that's not true, because on top is it tough guy is part of protein degradation. So, if you're increasing that system by definition, that's less muscle so there's always a give me in a gotcha for one benefit. There might be a drawback now, depending on your individual situation. Maybe it makes more sense right, like having the most muscle mass possible, may not be the best thing for health now
We know that having having muscle mass. The normal is good for health, but maybe having like absolute peak muscle mass may not be the best thing for help. You know so, it's like. That's why I was trying to say earlier: there's never going to be one diet that just fixes all of our problems. Depends on the individual and what they're trying to get out of it, just like uhm. If I went Again, I'm not have much. I watched anime for years love commentary! That's where I learned a lot of stuff by a mma, but if I went to a you get to instructor and I said: what's the best technique, he's gonna. Look at me like I'm an idiot right because you're not skis, that's to say, yeah, all our bar every time, that's the best technique, bridges and that's when people so what's the best diets, the same thing and MIKE it's completely contextual, to right depends on you and in the case of a may depends on your opponent as well, what your goals are and strategies so and you're acting. I think what we were trying to
really emphasizes that individuality dependent, but also I really want size they show was calories matter. You know calories matter, even in even you're eating low carb. You can't just eat as much as you want and then Karbi is a very Abel option. Yes, you induced and sustain a calorie deficit that can contribute to body composition, but he, like you, brought up a Floyd Mayweather, whether earlier, which I thought was great, because you said he drinks a cook after training. Well, it's hard to argue with his results. But then again sometimes elite athletes can get away with a lot of really dumb shyt because they are so genetically superior that they were going to do well, no matter what did Michael Jordan need a big MAC before every game, no, not true steak and baked potato steak and baked potato. Where is the big Macs myth myth from you by Mcdonald's, mother steak and baked potato.
Sounds like my way I can eat two or three big macs and a sitting and wash it down with a full sugar coat and still gain nothing yeah. I cringe, but she People can do that. Some people can do so, but but this so it's did. He become this great because he ate this way or can he eat this way? Because he's this great athlete, it's probably the latter, right, so we wouldn't recommend, like somebody if somebody sitting at home and they want to become the greatest boxer ever don't go. You know. Probably drinking coke isn't the first step right, but this is what we do with nutrition, because we pick out people that we follow and we go I'm just going to do that and it's so individuals on the sidelines of marathons like they'll hand off cokes to people. Exxon says: I've seen it because people just want for fuel fuel people just went for a they said it is not a bad idea when you're doing something, that's as grueling as America, so I don't want to say it's a bad. I don't yeah, I'm not against it.
If your car burner makes sense, yeah dense right yeah, but you want Cal did stuff that wouldn't be a bad thing again. Context is Brighton because we don't ever drink a coke. Well, if you were stuck, the death of how much you drink a coke right, you know so it's it's in. If you need quick energy, it's called it's not the worst thing that Floyd Mayweather could possibly do. Post Tration, but not optimal. Yeah lot of people eat those waffles. You know like when they're doing, hikes and stuff, but again at the the day. If, if he, if his carbohydrate intake- and I don't know what it is- but if he's eating five six hundred grams of carbohydrate today It really hurting him to have forty grams of sugar from a coke. If he's like, maintaining his body weight performing It's really probably probably nicely when you think about the kind of grueling workouts that guy puts in. Maybe maybe that's the only way he can. Maybe I don't know again, I'm I am theorizing. Maybe that's the only way he can get enough food in
to eat really energy, dense sources of food to maintain his body weight. And if you started saying well, we need you to eat chicken, breast and broccoli, and you know this organic rice and all this kind. He might start dropping weight like a stone in his performance go in the tank. So this is why context is so important and again like when we talk about people. Think how many times have you seen two guys in the octagon and just looked at their bodies and gone this one guy is going to smash this other guy, like just in the primal part your brain, because he was built like a tank and then the other guy who looks like nothing just goes out completely. Obliterates happens all the time time, yeah all the time right. So it's completely context dependent. The biggest thing is to make sure that you don't run out of fuel during these things right or whatever. And whatever your your sport is. I mean again, I'm known as a car guy and I had to
after one time telling me he said: don't you think you should carb load the night before Palestinian? I was like dude, you doing nine reps, like you're doing so you get three attempts on each lift, squat bench, press and deadlift, depleting not hard limited, so yeah you're not like so it really amazing, even like you can fast for a week which I did in desert TAN. It's not a significant inhibitor of your. Performances like running would be hills or something like that or doing role prolonged you resistance three three hours on that: it's probably not off the will to go in fasted yeah a string of it, but you know it's it's. You have to pick the contacts. The individual and also the people that want to hear this from a scientist, but we don't know enough about this stuff, yet to really say for each individual person what's best for them and that's why we kind of got to go by feel,
We know you don't have to go drinking gatorade throughout your one hour, work out in the gym. Typically, you know I'm I'm drinking, he does. But it's you know it's not going to offer you any advantage. It's not I did that for many years actually, and I think the guys still do it now Of course, we see it all the time, but I mean you don't want to make your shake in the gym and drink it into work. One thing that one of the things that drove me nuts was I kind of got a little back and forth with TIM Noakes on Twitter, an he kind of made it out to seem that you know he. People were just missing some of his research because people in academia or that peer review is broken who's, not TIM Noakes. So he's a big hello car. He's a professor in South Africa. I want to say yeah, yeah and very knowledgeable, opinionated, but very knowledge. He said to me: it's like! Well, that's 'cause, you've, never challenged convention because I was domino's. I have chat Every convention in the fitness industry have there ever was, but it's just you know when when people ask me his voice,
about it. Yet assertive but you're also open minded yeah, I'm very open minded. I just don't like if you can't show me a hard evidence. You know like there was a great quote from Thomas Soul that I saw the other He said you could ask these in science and go a long way in terms of bullshit compared to what where's your hard evidence you know, and what is the cost right, so it's well low Carb is better compared to what and what's the cost on performance or any of these other things and then where's your hard evidence right. So this is why, like I said science over time, yes, you can have industry influences, you can have model data and some scientists fake data we've we've both come across this site, is to a fake data. Frustrating sent it. It makes me so incensed. In fact, I I I will say anybody by name, but I used to be in this
this was somebody who I found out that I had no hard evidence. But I had a lot of circumstantial evidence that they were faking data and I even happens in cancer research. It's a huge mall, even in cancer, and I took this person out that at a dinner- and I told them was- I was like we're done like this thing. We're doing is done and and thank goodness I did because it came out later, people started replicating trying to replicate the date and nobody can replicate this data and the still had a pretty big following even now, but you know it's it's one of those things that it makes me so mad, because then people get so frustrated. Because they feel like if they feel like scientists, are just an industries pocket. While they're going to anything any of us say you know it's so far. Training and that's why motivation money power ego if the labs it's a companies funding you for a particular supplement, an you come out with consistently with negative data. What's the
You know incentive for them to keep finding you. But if you, if your showing positive results on supplement studies, the suburbs will come what a fun you more snow course, but you know it's so amazing, so dean, but also people keep in mind that it's got to be done in a very controlled blinded fashion. That's the only I keep reminding people like people who says things like. We found the cure for cancer in the minutes suppressing it in like and all the scientists are just in the pot. So what you're saying is you're saying that every scientist on the planet who does cancer research is an immoral unethical piece of shit. That's what you're saying, because you just told me they don't have friends and family who are dealing with cancer and there's suppressing this research. Come on now You know- and that's that's the other big, I'm a I'm a small government guy and I'm, like I said, libertarian, but one of the things that makes me cringe.
About libertarian. Sometimes these big, elaborate conspiracy theories that come up around science or whatnot, like you, realize, like a senator, can't even a text a dick to is his side chick without like it. Open up all over twitter. You think they could start with these big elaborate theories that can even tie their shoes in the morning without spending ten thousand dollars. You know so the idea that, like all. This research is being suppressed by the government, I'm not saying, it's, never happened, but I think it's pretty darn rare well, John. We just did three plus hours. Thank you. Is that, like six I'll just flew by receipt, you giving us yeah thanks for a looming, this stuff, which is still it's so complex as part of the problem, and I think we Do a hundred of these shows. I would never cover all topics are all the issues are all the details and I think it's so incredibly difficult for people to find the right, diet and program that works for them
I'd like to add one thing that the science is rapidly emerging and the metabolic health summit, which is happening in the end of January, beginning of February next year, twenty nineteen, we be bringing in the leading scientists that are talking about all the different topics. Right, and weight loss and that's going to be in It's actually there's a flyer in your book there. If you look inside they're giving you a flyer all La January 31st to February Third, in long beach, metabolic health. Some com. Uh. It's going to be a very comprehensive group of basic scientists, clinical scientists, entrepreneurs, an people, everyday people that are just interested in this space, see going, and I will be added I'm helping to sort of organize and promote it, but also moderating. Some things were going to hit on basically every topic that was discussed in my last podcast in this podcast. The leading scientists going to show up
so we we definitely want lane there too, and I think it would be great to have a panel discussion that addresses this with a couple more experts and personalities in in that It's amazing how much information you have to absorb? Yes, it's really and so many diet podcasts and have still more on well, that's that's what I like you'll. I always tell people you know it's hard, because if not gonna. Do it agree yourself or do research yourself, it's so hard to know who, like you, cut out to pick people that you trust yeah right and it's so hard to know who to trust, because there was something that Greg knuckles, really smart. Guy said the light, I think kind of ties things together nicely
he said, people are really good at knowing when somebody has more knowledge than them about a subject like you talk to somebody for a little bit and you really can get an impression pretty quickly if they know more or less than you are about the same. What they're, really bad at doing is figuring out amongst two people who know more than them. Who is the more knowledgeable on the tomb? They are very bad at picking that out. So you kind of got to pick people who you trust now, if you're looking for people to trust notice, the three magic words that me and him both sit on here today. At one point I don't know well usually experts they don't make broad claims, they don't use superlatives, they don't say things like best worst, never always they're usually put in context to everything and they are providing you with information that helps illuminate you, that everything is nuanced and that's why I like
I'm sure again I'll relate to MA. If you talk to anybody who is an expert in any different discipline- and you ask them a broad question- you're going to get a really broad answer and if you ask them a specific question, give a lot of context. Then they'll give you a specific answer. But would you agree with that? Yes definitely so I think someone is really strong on one side, dig kind of deep and look for conflicts of interest to so, I think that's kind of an important thing. I tried to be transparent as much as possible on sort of things were involved in, so I think that super important and I'm not. I'm not without buys too I mean I sell stuff. I've got a book out. I've got another book coming out. I have a website So it's yeah, but you're not actually well we're you're not advocating any particular approach. Your kind of approaching it from but what I'm saying is it really sucks it complete contest, prep guide, and this is available. On the other line and all those places, Bilingue, DOT, com, mylan dot com and your twitter, Bio Lane, Instagram Bio Lane and DOM yeah Keto
nutrition dot, org and ketone technologies is our company, It's an information website. I don't have any products product's purse, at least not yet, but I put products on there I personally use and kind of, let out that I think could be helpful and just a lot of information like your your prior podcast with me, is on their awesome, TIM Ferriss and Rhonda Patrick too. So I have right on the front page, some, your twitter and Instagram yeah. Dominic D'Agostino DOT. Katie, I think, is Instagram not a huge instagram back, but D'Agostino Dago to is my twitter handle and Dominic Agostino for Facebook too. So there's three. Thank
and I think we got a lot of published today. Thank you. Thank you really appreciate appreciate appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, everybody for tuning into the podcast and thank you to our sponsors. Thank you to movement Watch is get fifteen percent off today, with free shipping and free returns by going to mvmt dot com. Rogan, see why the move It keeps growing check out their expanding collection of dope, watches sunglasses and now bracelets for the ladies go to mvmt dot com. Rogan and join the movement. Thank you also to ask Let it greens folks athletic greens is offering you a special deal. Listen to this yes giving away twenty free travel packs, valued at one hundred or ninety nine dollars just charge hundred. I don't never understood that. I guess ninety nine dollars, valued at ninety nine dollars so get into
daily routine with athletic greens, it's one of the best things you can do for your health and success. I cannot stress this enough: head over to athletic dot com, forward. Slash, Rogan and claim your special offer today. That's athletic dot com, Slash Rogan, do not miss this, and thank you also to policy genius. Ladies and gentlemen, go get yourself, fuckin' covered, do it for yourself, do it for your loved ones, national, life insurance awareness month is right now, and see genius has quotes, you can ally. In minutes you get the whole thing done on your phone stop fucking around
prices are at a twenty year. Low and policy genius makes it easy to get the right policy for you policy genius the easy way to compare and buy life insurance. We're done! Thank you. Everybody thanks to today in Toronto, see people tomorrow night. Thank you, love. You bye.
Transcript generated on 2019-10-27.