« The Joe Rogan Experience

#1188 - Lex Fridman

2018-10-24 | 🔗
Lex Fridman is a research scientist at MIT, working on human-centered artificial intelligence.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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brilliant man, the fucks wrong with me, I can't even say brilliant man. He is a brilliant man, and we fascinating conversation. I've really enjoyed talking to him, so please give it up for Lex Friedman the Joe Rogan experience we're here. Thanks for doing this, you brought notes you're seriously prepared when you jumping. Playing his best to bring a parachute. This is my parachute. I understand yeah how long have you been working in artificial intelligence? My whole life, I think, really So when I was a kid wanted to become a psychiatrist, I wanted to understand the human mind. I think
The human mind is the most beautiful mystery that our entire civilizations taken on exploring through science. I think you look up at the stars. You know the universe out there, you had the grass Tyson here, it's an amazing, beautiful scientific Jr. Me that we're taking on exploring the stars, but the mind to me is a bigger mystery and more fascinating, and it's been the thing I've been fascinated by from the very beginning of my life, and just I think, all of human civilization has been wondering you know what is in this inside this thing. The hundred trillion connections there just firing all the time. Somehow making the magic happen to where you and I can look at each other- make words
all the fear love life. Death. That happens is all because of this thing in here and understanding. Why is fascinating and what I early on understood is that one of the best ways for me at least two I understand the human mind- is to try to build it and that's what artificial intelligence eyes. You know it Sze, not enough to from a psychology perspective to study from ah psychiatry perspective too, investigate from the
outside. The best way to understand is to do so. You mean almost like reverse engineering, a brain there's some stuff, exactly reverse engineering them and there's some stuff that you can't understand them to try to do it. You can have prophesies your. I mean we're both martial artists from various directions. You can hypothesize about what
is the best martial art, but until you get in the ring, I quit the USC did and test ideas is when you first realize that the touch of death that I've seen some Youtube videos on a you, perhaps cannot kill a person with a single touch or your mind or telepath. The that there's certain things that work wrestling works punching works. Okay can make it better. Can we create something like a touch of death? Can we figure out how to turn the hips, how to deliver a punch in the way that does do a significant amount of damage? And then you at that moment, when you start to try to do it in you, face some of the people that trying to do the same thing? That's the scientific process and you try. You actually begin to know.
Him. What is intelligence, and you begin to also understand how little we understand it's like Richard Feinman, who I'm dressed after today. Are you he's a physicist, I'm not sure if you're sure, yeah yeah, yeah he always used to wear this exact thing, so I feel I feel pretty badass wearing it I think you know astrophysics, you don't know astrophysics, that's right! Well, he said it about quantum physics. Physics is right: s O. He was a quantum physicist. Quantum physicist kind of remember hear him talk about that understanding are the nature of the universe of reality could be like an onion we don't know, but
it could be like an onion to where you think you know you're studying a layer of an onion and you peel it away and there's more and you keep doing it and there's an infinite number of layers with intelligence. There's the same kind of component to where we think we know we got it. We figured out. We figured out how to beat the human world champion to chest. We solved intelligence and then we tried the next thing. Wait a minute go is really difficult to solve, is a game, and then you say: okay, it's I! I came up when the game of go. Wasn't it possible for artificial intelligence systems to beat and have now recently have been beaten within the last like five years right next, the last five years. There's a lot of technical, fascinating things of why that victory is interesting and
artificial intelligence. He requires creativity, correct it does not. You know it just exhibits creativity, so the technical aspects of why Alfa go from Google did mind that that was the the designers and builders of the system. That was the victor. They did a few very interesting technical things where
Essentially, you develop a neural network. This is this type of artificial intelligence system that looks at a board of go as a lot of elements on. It is black and white pieces and is able to tell you how good is this situation, and how can I make a better and that idea, the chess players can do this, I'm not actually that familiar with the game of go. I can speak to Russian, so just tosses romanticize the beautiful game. I think that there you look at a board and all your previous experiences, all the things you've developed over tens of years of practice and thinking you get this instinct of what is the right path to follow, and it's exactly in your own now, because doing and some of the info is some of the paths it has come up with- are surprising to other world champions, so
that census, as well as things exhibiting creativity, because it's coming up with solutions that are something that's outside the box. Thinking from the perspective of the human, when what what do you differentiate between requires creativity and exhibits? Creativity, I think one because we don't really understand what creativity is. So it's almost is the s on the level of concepts such as consciousness, for example, the question which there's a lot of thinking about whether creating something intelligent requires consciousness. Acquire for us to be actual living beings. Aware of our own existence in the same way does doing something like building a Thomas vehicles. The area where I work in does that require creativity. Does that even require something like consciousness and self awareness.
I mean I'm sure in LA there's, some degree of creativity required to navigate traffic and in that sense, you start to think are their solutions that are outside of the box and a s system used to create a it's once you start to build it. You realize that, because humans, certain things, appear creative, certain things dull and things you take for granted certain things we find beautiful and certain things were like yeah yeah. That's boring! Well, there's creativity in different levels. Right this creativity like to write this stand with Stephen King novel, that requires creativity, there's something about his he's. Creating these stories he's giving invoices to these characters he's did I'll, be in these scenarios and these dramatic sequences in the book. That's going to get you really sucked in that most undeniable creativity right? Is it
yeah. It's he's imagining a world. What is it always set in New Hampshire and Massachusetts? Lot of its main main? Yes, right, so he's imagining a world and in as in the emotion of differently surrounding that world? Yeah? That's that's creative! Although a few there's a few really good books, including his own, the talks about writing. Yeah he's got a great book on writing and the bar it's actually called on. Writing. Writing. Writing. Yeah. If there's anyone who can write a book on writing should be Stephen king. This, I think Stephen Press field. I hope I'm not saying the war of art in the war of art beautiful book an I would say if, from my recollection, they don't necessarily talk about creativity, very much that is really hard work of putting in the hours of every day of just grinding it out. Well, Pressfield talks about the Muse Pressfield speak if it almost in like a strange, mystical, mystical sort of connect
into the unknown, because he almost they even exactly sure if he believes in them use but a heap. I think if I could put words in his mouth, I have met a great guy. He was on the podcast once I think the way he treats it is that if you did by the muse, Israel real and you show up every day and you right as if the muses real you get the benefits of them, use being real. That's right, whether or not there's actually amused. That's giving you these wonderful ideas and what is the news, so I think of artificial intelligence. Same way, there's a Qu
by PAMELA Mccormack from ninety seven nine book that I really like. We should talk about the history of artificial intelligence. A I began with the ancient wish to force the gods and, to me, God's, broadly speaking, a religions represents it's kind of like the muse represents the limits of possibility. The limits of our imagination, so is this thing that we don't quite understand? That is,
is the muse that is God this at the Us Us Champs a very narrow in our ability to perceive and understand the world and there's clearly a much bigger, beautiful, mysterious world out there and God, or the muse, represents that world and for many people I think throughout history, and especially in the in the past sort of a hundred years, artificial intelligence has become to represent that a little bit to the thing which we don't understand and we crave for both terrified and we crave in creating this thing. That is greater. That is able to understand the world better than us in that. In that sense, artificial intelligence is the desire to create the muse in this other, this imaginary thing, and I think, the one of the beautiful things if you talk about for everybody from Yamaska SAM Harris to all the people. Thinking about this is that there's a mix of for
of that of of that unknown of creating that unknown and excitement for there's something in human nature that desires. Creating that, because, like I said, creating is how you understand, Did you initially study biology? Did you study the actual development of the mind or what? What is known about the the evolution of the human mind of the human mind yeah, so my path is different. As it's the same for a lot of computer scientists and roboticist is we, ignore biology neuroscience the physiology. We have our own bodies a and there's a lot of believes now that you should really study biology, she's studying your size, you study on brain. The actual can,
let's see what's happening? What is actually, how are the neurons, interconnected, all the different kinds of systems in there, so that is a little bit of a blind spot or it's a big blind spot, but the problem, so I started with more philosophy on this is where, if you think SAM Harris as the last couple years, it started kind of think of artificial intelligence, and he is, he has a back on you. You know science, but he's all so philosopher, and I started there by reading, reading, Kamu and Nietzsche, or does the Yeskey thinking? What is what is intelligence?
what is human morality will? So all these concepts give you the context which you can then start studying these problems and then I said, there's a there's, a magic that happens when you build a robot the drives around. I mean your father I'd like to be, but I'm not yet there's a creation aspect. That's wonderful! That's incredible! As for me, I don't have any children at the moment, but the crew, the act of creating a robot will you programmed and it moves around in his senses. The world is, this, is, is a is a magical moment? Do you see Alien Covenant as us? I yeah no Do we have seen any of the alien films I so I grew up in the union where the we didn't watch too many movies. So I need to catch up
We should catch up on that one in particular, because a lot of it has to do with artificial intelligence, there's actually a battle between spoiler alert to different but identical artificially intelligent synthetic beings that are there to aid the. Bo on the ship. One of them is very creative and why of them is not and the one that is not hostas. Save them from the one that is spoiler alert I don't tell you who wins, but there is there's a really fascinating scene at the very beginning of the movie, where the creator of this artificially intelligent being is discussing its existence with the being itself and the beings trying to figure out who made him an in it's really fascinating moment and is being winds up being a bit of a problem because
possesses creativity, and if it has the ability to think for itself and may they found it to be a problem, so they in a different version of it, which was not to create and the one that was not able to create was much more of more of a servant and there's a battle between these two. I think you would find it quite fascinating. It's a really good movie yeah, this some kind of theme carries through smock and yeah. Two thousand one space odyssey sort of you see Next Montana yeah, as I seen it so because of your eyes, listen to a podcast and because, because of it, I've watched a second time because the first time I watched it- and you know the grass Tyson moment where I was- he said, this could be cut the cut the check out. They should moments yes for me, for me, the movie opening is everything everything about it was. I was
in my eyes, while you're rolling your eyes. What was the the cut the moment? So that's a general bad tendency that, like to talk about amongst people who are scientists that are actually trying to do stuff the trying to build with the thing at. It's very tempting to roll your eyes and two now in a lot of aspects of artificial, intelligent discussion so on for me, there's real reasons to roll your eyes and there's just Let me just describe it so did this person in ex markina no spoiler is in the middle. What like a Jurassic park, type situation where is like in the middle of land that he owns yeah? We don't really know where it is. It's not established, but you have to fly over glaciers and you get to this place and there's rivers and he has his fantastic compound inside this company p used to be working alone and he's like he's like doing curls, I think, like dumbbell
and drinking heavily. So the everything I know, science, everything I know about engineering- is it doesn't happen alone, so the situation of a compound with no hundreds of engineers, their order and on this is not the novel is not feasible, is not possible and the other moments like that were the technical, the discussion about how it's technically done. They they throw and if you jargon the spy stuff up that that makes doesn't make any sense. Well, that's where I am blissfully ignorant yeah, so I watch it. I go. This movie's awesome yeah and you know, like I know too much and not too much, but that's that's a stupid way to think for me. So once you, Sis renters belief, say: ok well, those are those are not important. Details
yeah, but it is important I mean they could have gone to you or someone who really has knowledge in it and cleaned up those small aspects and still kept the theme of the story. That's right they could have but able to make a different movie, but slightly different. I don't know if it's possible to make. So you look at two thousand and one space odyssey. I don't know if you've seen them, that's the kind of movie you will start. If you talk, decides that you'll start making those kinds of movies is you can't actually use jargon that makes sense, because we don't know how to build a lot of these systems. So the way you need to film it and talk about it is with mystery. Is this Hitchcock right type like you almost you say very little leave to your imagination to see what happens here. Everything was in the open right even with in terms of the actual construction of the brain when they had that phone. Looking whatever,
gel brain right yeah. So if they gave a little bit more, MR subtle mystery. I think I would enjoy that movie a lot more, but the second time it really cuz, you said I think it's your favorite, Sci, FI it's absolutely one of my favourites. I found one of my favorite movies period. I loved it, so I watched it again. And also SAM Harris said that he also hated the movie and then washed again like that. So I gave it up, so I guess I give it a chance. Why would you see a movie again after you hate it, because Maybe you're self aware enough to think there's something unhealthy about the way I hated. The movie like you're, like introspective enough to know,
it's like I had the same experience to the Batman. Ok, I watched, which one dark night I think, is christian Bale, christian Bale and so to me the first time I watched that is a guy in a costume, like speaking excessively with excessively low voice. I mean it's just something simple like a little bunny ears, not bunny ears, but little years, it's so silly, but then you go back and okay, if we just accept those that's the reality of the world. We live in now. What's the human nature, aspects that are being sport here. What is the the beautiful conflict between could win good and evil as being explored here and what are the awesome, graphics effects that are being on exhibit right. So if you can just suspend that as beautiful maggot, the movie can become quite fun to watch but still and to me not to
anybody, but that super hero movies are different, still difficult for me to watch yeah who's. Talking about that recently he's just the Kelly Kelly Slater. No, I was yesterday yesterday Heil his conduct yeah. He doesn't look. Movies right. He doesn't like superhero movies were talking about Batman, Bob Christian. Voice and he's like the most This thing was that he's actually Batman, not those voice, Batman that part of it is way less ridiculous than the fact that he's Batman is Batman. Is anybody could do that voice? But I contradict I'm, I'm a hypocrite because game of thrones or tokens Lord of the rings, I'm it's totally believable to me, yeah dragons and well that's fantasy world right! That's the problem,
something like Batman or even X. Maka knows that it takes place in this world whereas, there in middle earth air into place. It doesn't exist and if you it's like, if you like avatar, if you make a movie about a place that does not exist, you can all kinds of crazy shit in that movie. 'cause. It's not real! That's right! So. But at the same time, like star wars is harder for me and you're, saying star. Wars is a little more real because it's it feels feasable like you could have spaceships flying around right. What what's not feasable about star wars? Two oh I'm not, I leave that one to Neil Degrasse size. He was getting angry about the robot. That circular rolls around he's like it would just be slippery. Trying to roll around all over the sand. It wouldn't work. It would get no traction light. That's true, but if you had like last tires
to drive over sand was smooth time would get. Nothing is he's actually The guy that made me realize you know the movie ghost and it was at this podcast to somewhere. He was talking about the fact that so that this guy can go through walls right. It's a beautiful romantic movie that everybody should watch right now, but he doesn't seem to fall through chair When you said send them, they can walk walls, but he can put his hand on the desk and sit like his. His butt has a magical shield that is in this reality, this is a quantum shield that protects them from form yeah. So so that's you know those devices are necessary movies. I get it in yeah, but you got a good point he's, got a good two! There's cut
this shit moments. They don't have to be there. You know you just have to work them out in advance, but the problem is a lot of movie. Producers think they're smarter than people. They just decided. I just put it in there. The average person is not going to care. I've had that conversation with movie produces about martial arts, and I was like well. This is just nonsense. You can't do that. Like 'cause, with explaining martial arts to someone and he was like now. The average person is not going to care, I'm like. Oh the average person. Ok, but you brought me in as a martial arts expert to talk to you about your movie and I'm telling you right now. This is horseshit, he's believer of Steve Jobs, philosophy. Where forget the average person discussion, because first of all the average person will care the it's Steve jobs. Why designed would really push the design of the interior of computers to be beautiful, not just exterior, even if you never see it. If you have attention to detail to every aspect of the design, even
if it's completely hidden from the actual user in the end, somehow that karma whatever it is that, like love for everything you do and that love seeps through the product and the same, I think with movies. If you talk about one space, odyssey, there's so many details. I think there's probably these groups of people that study every detail of that movie. Another Kubrick films, those little details matter, somehow they all come together to show how deeply passionate you are about telling the story. Well. Cu was a perfect example that, because he would put layer upon layer upon layer of detail into films of people would never even recognize like there's a boy correlations between the APOLLO Moon landings in the shining. You know, there's like people have actually studied it to the point where they think that it's some sort of a confession that Kubrik fake the moon landing could go.
Is from the little boy having the rocket ship on his sweater to the the number of the number of the room that things happen. This is like a bunch of like very bizarre connections in the film that Kubrick. Actually engineered 'cause. He was just stupid, smart man, I mean he was so God damn smart, that he would do comp mathematics for fun despair. Spare time cu was like legitimate genius and he engineered that sort of complexity into his films, where he didn't have cut the moments in his movies. Not that I can recall no, not even close, yeah very interesting. I am, but that probably speaks to the reality of Hollywood. Today that the cut the moments don't affect the the bottom line of how much the movie makes well team. It really depends on the film right. I mean they. They cut the shit ones that Neil Degrasse Tyson found in gravity
didn't see, because I wasn't aware of what the effects of gravity on a person's hair would be. You know he saw it and he was like this is ridiculous, and then there was things like. Why are these space stations so close together? I just let it slide while the movie was playing, but then he went into great detail about how preposterous it would be. Those space stations were that close together you get to them so quickly, that's with Sandra Bullock and that was looking guy and George yeah, the good looking guy did that pass muster with, question that movie. No, he tore it apart and when he toured are people went crazy. They get so angry at him. He reads the negative comments. As you've talked about yeah, I actually recently ' 'cause of doing a lot of work when artificial intelligence and lecturing about and so on. I have plugged into this community of folks that are thinking about the future of artificial intelligence. Artificial.
General intelligence and they are very much out of the box thinkers to wear the kind of messages I get our best. So I let it let them kind of explore those ideas with all of engaging to to those. I think very complex discussion should be had with people in person. That's what I think and I think But when you allow comments just random anonymous comments to ENT into your consciousness like you're, taking risk x and you may you may run into a bunch of really brilliant ideas. You know coming from people that are consider it the thought these think through or you might just run into river of assholes, it's entirely possible and I peeked into The comments today on Twitter was like what, in the fuck I started reading a couple of them, some just morons and my uh about some shit. I don't even know what the fuck they were talking about, but but that's the risk you take when you
dive in you're, going to get people that are disproportionately upset, you're going to get people that are disc, unfortunately, delusional or whatever it is in regards to your position on something or whether or not they even stand your position, they'll argue something: that's an incorrect interpretation of your position you've actually from what I've heard you've actually been to this podcast, and so on, really good at being open minded and something I try to preach as well this. So in a I discussions, when you talking about AGI and talking about so there's a difference between narrow, ai and general artificial intelligence in area a eyes, the kind of things that are the kind of tools that are being apply now, I'm being quite effective and then there's generally I, which is a broad categorization of concepts that are human level or super human level intelligence,
and there we talk about AGI Official Journal, tells there's seems to be two camps of people ones who are really working deep in it. Like that's the camp, I kind of sit in and a lot of those folks tend to roll their eyes and just not engage in train discussion, the future. That idea is saying it's really hard to do. What we're doing, and it's just really hard to see how this becomes intelligent and then there's another group of people who say they have a beat you're being very short sighted that you may not be able to do so much now, but the exponential the heartache off the l overnight it can become super intelligent and then it'll be too late to think about the problem. With those two camps, as with any camps Democrat Republic, any camps is they don't seem to be seen.
To talking past each other, as opposed to both, have really interesting ideas. If you go back to the analogy of touch of death of this idea of mma right, so I'm not in this analogy, going to put myself in the UFC for a second. In this analogy, I'm you know like ranked in the top twenty I'm working really hard in my dream to become a world champion, I'm training three times a day, really working, I'm an engineer, I'm trying to build my skills up and then there is other folks to come along like Steven Seagal and so on. That kind of talk about other kinds of martial arts. Other ideas of how you can do certain things- and I think I think Steven Seagal could is not mine, be on to something I think we really need to be open minded like a and and facility think at talks to students or somebody talk to since it all right. Do you
Anderson. I thinks put this in a respectful way. He Anderson Silva has a wonderful sense of humor and Anderson Silva is very playful and he thought it would be home If people believe that he was learning all of his martial arts from students ago. He also love Steven, Seagal movies legitimately so treated him with a great deal of respect. He also read: noise is Steven, Segal, actually is a master of Aikido. He really is understand a key to an was one of the very first westerners that was teaching in Japan speaks Japanese was teaching at dojo in Japan, and is you know uh legitimate, master, aikido. The problem with Aikido is it's
one of those martial arts that has merit in a in a vacuum. I you, if you're in a world where there's no nc, play wrestlers or no so players or no, but brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belts or no Moy Thai Kickboxers, there might be some thing too, that aikido stuff, but in the world we're all those other martial arts exist and we've examined all the intricacies of hand to hand combat it falls. Horribly short. Let's see, this is the point I'm trying to make. You just said that we've investigated all the intricacies said all the intricacies of hand in hand com. I mean you just speaking, but you want to open your mind to the possibility that Aikido has
techniques are affected their affected yeah when I say all that you're you're you're correct, that's not a correct way of describing it because there's always new moves that are being like, for instance, are in this recent fight between Anthony Pettis and Tony Ferguson. Tony Ferguson, actually used Wing Chung in a fight. He he trapped, Anthony Pettis is hands and hit him with the elbow. He basically used a technique that you reviews on a wing Chung dummy and he did it in an actual world class. Ass, mixed martial arts fight- and I remember watching it wow going this crazy motherfucker actually pulled that off 'cause. That's You just rarely see anybody getting that proficient at it that that fights in MMA and Ferguson is Extremely creative and open minded guy and he figured out a way to make that work in a world class fight so and
then ask you the question: there's there's these people still believe quite a lot of them that there is this touch of death right. There was a pause. Do you sell? Do you think it's possible to discover now through this rigorous scientific process that is MMA that started pretty recently, you think not the touch of death, but do you think we can get a ten x improvement in the MA? The power of the human body can can generate in and and punching no, not certainly not ten acts. He I think you can get incremental improvements, but it's all based entirely on your frame like if you're a purse, and it has very small hands and narrow shoulders, you're kind of screwed there's not really a lot of room for improvement. You can. You can certainly get in Crna mental improvement in your ability to generate power. But you'll never be able to generate the same kind of power as say a guy, with a very big frame like Brock, Lesnar or Derrick Lewis or
you know, anyone who has there's like classic elements that go with being able to generate large amounts of power, wide shoulders, large hands. There's there's a lot of characteristics of the human frame itself. Those those people there's only so much power you can generate and we pretty much know how to do that correctly. So the the way you're talking about as a martial arts, expert Now is kind of the way. A lot of the experts in robotics and a I talk about a I nine and when topic of touch of death is brought up now, the now she's not perfect. I tend to use probably too many knowledges is maybe know the human body better, that we know the possibility of a. I would assume so right, because possibility of ai is basically limitless. Once AR starts re re designing itself. It's not obvious that that's true,
our imagination allows it to be true. When I am of two minds I am, I am I'm both I can hold both believes that contradict in my mind. One is that idea is really far away: almost boarding a b s and the other is it can be there overnight. I think you could believe both those things. Some there's another quote from Barbara. Wouldn't it's a poem I heard on on on the lecture somewhere, that I really like, which is from the champions of the impossible, rather than the slaves of the possible that evolution draws, is creative force, So I almost as a representative of the champion of the impossible the growth of ai within the next several decades as the impossible, but it's the champions of the impossible that actually make,
possible happen. Why'd exponential growth of Aib, impossible 'cause, it seems inevitable to Maine, so it's not impossible am sort of using the word impossible, meaning magnificently guys feels very difficult, very, very difficult, like we don't even know where to begin Rand yeah, like the touch of death,. Actually feel you have to see the touch of death is horseshit but see get your intestines like ha and they touch in the chest. But we don't have the ability in the body to generate that kind of energy. How do you know that question? It's never! done. We understand so much about physiology. How do you know it's never been done? There could be. Some out there with magic that that is escape. My my grasp know you studied. You've talked but Graham Hancock Hancock he's talking about the history, maybe was
in roman times there was, that idea was discovered and then it was lossed, because weapons are much more effective ways of of delivering damage. Now I find myself in the very for the position of defending the concept as a martial artist I mean the concept of martial arts. Did you study those are the hard ones jujitsu, who judo and wrestling those are absolute martial arts, in my opinion, this is what I mean like if you are a guy who just has a fantastic physique, an incredible speed and ridiculous power. Just you just can generate ridiculous power. If you just just a person. You know do not deontay wilder is yes heavy weight champion world boxer. He is fate. You have what's his name, Tyson, Fury Tyson Fury tomorrow. Yes, you undefeated guys. Yes,
want a wilder, has fantastic power I mean he just knocks people flying across the ring he's just I think Deonte wilder if he just came off the street if he was to five years old and no one ever taught him how to box at all, and you just wrapped his hands up and had him hit. A bag would be able to generate insane amounts of force. Now, if you are a per send that really didn't have much power and you had a box with Dante wilder and you were both of the same age and you are person that new boxing and you stood in front of deontay. It's entirely pause the deontay wilder, could knock you into another dimension, even though he had no experience in boxing if he just held on you and hit you with a haymaker, he might be able to put you out if you are- person who is let's say built like you and a guy who your size is who strong and then there's someone who's identically built like you, who is a black belt in
brazilian Jujitsu and you don't have any experience in martial arts at all you're fucked right, yes, you're, a person who is built like you who, a guy who exercises is healthy and you people with the guy who's, even stronger than you and bigger than Nobody has no experience in brazilian Jiu Jitsu he's still fucked. That's the difference! That's why I think brazilian Jujitsu Judo and wrestling in particular. Those are absolutes in that you have control of the body. Yes, and once you click grab, hold a person's body. There's no lucky triangle chokes in Ju Jitsu, that's right right, but I think I think I would say: did you? so as the highest representative that I think in wrestling and judo having practice those I've never been quite as humbled as I have been in Jujitsu,
yeah, especially when I started I was like Powerlifting I was like. I was a total meathead, an you know. One hundred and thirty pound guy or girl could tap you easily yeah, it's confusing it's very confusing in wrestling. You can get pretty far with. That is how yeah yeah and in Judo maybe less so at its highest levels. If you go to Japan, for example, where they I mean the whole dream of Judo is effortlessly, throw your opponent, but you know, if you go to gyms in America and so on,. You know there is some hard wrestling style gripping and just be seeing each other up pretty intensely where we're not talking about beautiful, which models are. These beautiful throws were talking about some scrapping some wrestling styles yeah. Yeah. I know I what you're saying yeah my experience with Jujitsu was very humbling when I first
I was had a long background in martial arts and striking and and wrestled in high school, and then I start taking Jiu Jitsu and a guy who is my size, and I was young at the time and he was basically close to my age, just mauled me and he was even a black belt I think he was a purple belt. You might have been a bluebell. I think was a purple and just destroyed me just did anything he wanted to make sure main armbarred me just and I remember getting man I am so delusional. I thought I had a chance. I thought just based on taking it couple classes and learning when an arm bar is and then be strong person who has a background in martial arts that I would be able to at least hold him off a little bit.
No- and this is a that I feel lucky to have that had that experience of having my ass kicked in Philadelphia is where I came up with, because in science you don't often get that experience in the space of ideas You can't you can't choke each other out. You can't beat each other up in science, and so it's easy to go your whole life. I have so many people around me telling me how smart I am there's no way to actually know if I'm smart or not 'cause, I think I'm full of bs and in the same
in the same round is, is fighting there's. No, it's with Hex and Gracie said needs the horse from a solid Berra. Somebody that the math doesn't lie. There's this deep honesty in it. That was I'm really grateful. Almost like a warning in a talk about bullies. Are you talk about, or even just my fellow academics could benefit significantly from training a little bit? I think so too. It's the yeah, it's a it's a beautiful thing to almost I think it's been talked about in high school sort of requiring it yeah the concerned about many times. You know, I think it's a more humbling sport to be honest and wrestling if you could addressing like, I said, get away with with some muscle. It's also with martial arts are supposed to be in that a small person who knows technique can beat a big purse who doesn't know the technique, that's where we always hope for right. We saw the Bruce Lee Movies and Bruce Lee, who is a smaller guy, could beat all these bigger guys just 'cause. He had better technique that
actually real in Jujitsu, and it's one of the only martial arts were that's real yeah and I I have in in Philadelphia's start you had Steve Maxwell hearing shore, that's kind of where the that was the spring of Digits in Philadelphia yeah. He was one of the very first american black belts and use it to like way back in the day. I believe he was a black belt in the very early nineties when jujitsu is really just starting to come to America and he at maxxair size in Philadelphia still there and then I I traded balance, which is a few Gracie folks which filming Blu rays. Regular is Google Brothers. I mean especially all the brothers these couple by both the come up together. Is there well they're smaller the little guys? I think those are the guys that really humble me pretty quickly, well the little guys in the best to learn technique from yeah, because they can't rely on strength.
There's, a lot of really big powerful. You know two hundred and fifty pound jujitsu guys who never are going to develop the sort of subtlety of technique that some like What the May, our brothers, like small, more guys, who just they from the very beginning, they've, never had an advantage in weight and size and so they've, never been able to use anything but perfect technique. Eddie. Bravo is another great example that too you know he he competed in the one hundred and forty pound, one hundred and forty five pound class. Artificial intelligence. So the idea is that the exponential increase in technology and that, once artificial intelligence become sentient, it eventually improve upon its own design and literally come a God in a short amount of time and then there's the other school of thought. That thing
that is so far outside of the realm of what is possible today that even speculation of this eventually taking place is kind of ludicrous to imagine right exactly and the balance needs to be struck, because I think I'd like to talk about sort of the short term threats that are there, this really important to think about, but the long term threats if they come to fruition, will over power everything right, that's really important to think about. But what happens is if you think too much about the encroaching doom of humanity. There's some aspect to it. That is paralyzing where you almost it turns you off from actually thinking about the these ideas. They there's something so appealing, take a black hole that pulls you
and and if you notice, folks, like SAM Harris and so on, spend a large amount of the time to you know the talking about the negative stuff about something, that's far away, not to say it's not wrong to talk about it, but they spent very little time about the potential positive impacts in the near term and also the negative impacts the near term. So let's go over those yep fairness, so that we, the more and more, we put decisions about our lives into the hands of artificial intelligence systems, whether you get a loan, our
in the Times vehicle context or in terms of recommending jobs. For you on linked in or all these kinds of things, the idea of fairness becomes of bias in in these machine learning systems becomes a really big threat, because the wave current in your up the way current artificial does a systems function. Is the train and data said there's no way to for them to somehow gain a greater intelligence than our than the data we provide them with, so we provide them with the actual data, and so they carry over if we're not careful the by sees in that data, the the discrimination that's inherent in our current society, as as represented by the data still to this just carry that forward. I can also service people working in this, a more so to see to show really the negative impacts in terms
of getting a loan over there to say whether this particular human being should be convicted or not of a crime. All up. There is there's ideas there that can carry. You know in our criminal system there's discrimination and if you use data from that criminal system to then assist deciders judges, juries lawyers and making the in communicating in make a decision of what kind of pounds a person gets they're going to carry that forward. So you mean like racial economic, biases, racial economic, yeah, but geographical and and that's the sort of I don't say that put exact problem. But it's it's you're aware of it because of the tools were using it only so the two ways that I'd like to talk about neural networks with okay, Joe short of
So the current approaches are, there's been a lot of demonstrated improvements, exciting new improvements and our advancement of artificial intelligence, and those are for the most part has to do with me on that work. Something has been around since the 1940s has gone to two ai winters, where everyone was super hyped and then super bummed and super Hype, Vienna bombed again and now we're in this other hype cycle and what your networks are. Is these collections of interconnected, simple compute units that are all similar? It's kind of like it's inspired by our own brain? We have a bunch of neurons, interconnected and the idea is these, inter actions are really dumb and random, but if you feed it with some data, they'll learn to connect just like they're doing our brain in a way that interprets that data. They form representations of that data and can make decisions.
But there's only two ways to train those new on the hour so have now one is. We have to provide a large data set. If you want, then you'll know to tell the difference in a cat and dog you have to give it ten thousand images of a cat and ten thousands of a dog. You need to give it those images the who tells you what a picture of a cat a dog is it's humans, so it has to be annotated. So as teachers of these artificial intelligence systems, we have to collect this data. We have to invest significant amount of effort and annotate that data, and then we teach you all networks to make that prediction. What's not obvious, there is how poor of a method there is to achieve any kind of greater degree of intelligence you're, just not able to get very far besides. Very specific narrow tasks
Cat versus dog, Vehicles are actually beyond the scope of that kind of approach. The other round of where you're on that which can be trained, is if you can simulate that world. So if the world is simple enough, war is conducive to be formalized sufficiently to where you can simulate. It so game of chess. It's just it's it's those rules game ago. There's rules he can simulate it. They had. The big exciting thing about Google Jeep mind is that they were able to beat the world champion by doing something called competitive self play, which is the two systems play against each other.
I need the human they play against each other, but that only works and that's a beautiful idea and super powerful and really interesting and surprising, but that only works on things like games and simulation. So now, if I wanted to side to be going to an allergist Like you see, for example, if I wanted to train the system to become the world champion, be what's his name numbing that up, I I can play the UFC game. I can create that. I carry a tune, your networks that play use compared to self play to play in that virtual world and they could become state of the art, the best fighter ever in that game, but trans that to the physical world. We don't know how to do that. We don't know how to teach systems to do stuff in the real world. Some of the stuff, the freaks you out but often is Boston Dynamics, robots, yeah that
Every day I go to the Instagram page and just go what the fuck are you guys doing? so engineering our demise, MARC Raibert. Go is spoke, the class I taught he is a a bad boy of robotics, so he's having a little fun with it? He should definitely stop doing that. Don't call yourself with bad boy of anything that show how old is he ok he's one of the greatest roboticist of our generation. That's wonderful! However. I'm calling yourself a don't call yourself a bad boy, Bro
so you're, not the bad boy of MMA. Definitely not next, but I'm not even the bad man Batman, definitely not a bad boy. Okay, it's a silly yeah. The those robots are actually functioning in the physical world. That's what I'm talking about and they are using something called- or, I think, coined. I don't know. 70S or 80s the term good old fashion, ai meaning nothing like going on that. You would consider artificial intelligence, which is usually connected to learning, so these systems aren't learning. It's not like you,
drop the puppy into the into the world and kind of stumbles around and figure stuff out and learn is better and better and better and better. That's the scary part, that's the imagination than that. That's what we imagined as we put something in this world at first, it's like harmless and falls all over the place and also need to figure something out in, like Elon Musk says the travels faster than whatever they can only see with Proglide there's no learning component there. This is just purely there's, hydraulics and Electric motors, and there is twenty to thirty degrees of freedom, and it's doing hard coded control, algorithms to control the task of how do you move efficiently through space? So this is the task of autosys work on a really really hard problem is taking robotic manipulation, taking arm
grabbing a water bottle and lifting it super hard from from somewhat unsolved to this point and learning to do that, we really don't know how to do that. The land right, but this is what we're talking about. Essentially, is the convergence of these robotic system, with artificially intelligent systems and as artificially intelligent, intelligent systems evolve, and then this convergence complete you're, going to have the ability to do things like the computer that beat humans at go you're, going to have creativity, you're going to have a complex understanding of language, an expression and you're going to have mean perhaps an engineered things like emotions like jealousy and anger, I mean it's entirely possible that, as you were saying we're we have systems that could potentially be biased. Human beings are biased towards people of certain echo,
comic groups or certain geographic groups, and you would use that day see that they have to discriminate just like human beings discriminating. But if you have all that in and uh artificially intelligent robot that has off Cortana mean that has the ability to move. This is what people are to really concerned with, and terrified of is that all of these different systems that currently in semi crude states, they can pick water bottle. Yet they can't really do much other than they can do backflips, but they, you know, I'm sure, you've seen this more. The more recent Boston, dynamic ones, Parkour yeah, that's all only other day it's get they're getting better and better and better, and it's it's every year every year there's they have new abilities. Did you see that black mirror episode Heavy metal yeah and I think about quite a lot because Functionally it has, we know how to do most aspects of that right now, right now, pretty close yeah,
pretty close- I mean I, I don't remember exactly, there's some kind of pebble shooting situation where it like hurts you by shooting you somehow, but has bullets didn't bullets yeah? Is it basically. Gun without a knife. It stuck into one of its arms member and come spoiler alert just an amazing episode of how terrifying it would be if some emotionless robot with incredible abilities is coming after you and wants to terminate you- and I think about that- a lot because I had a lot of that episode because it's it's terrifying for some reason yeah, but when I sit down and actually in the work we're doing about how we would do that, so we can do the actual movement of the robot. We don't know how to do is to have robots that do the full thing which is have some have have a goal of pursuing humans and eradicated. I'm I'm not spoil alert. All of the
I think the goal of eradicating human so assuming their values are not aligned? Somehow that's one. We don't know how to do that and to is the entire process of just navigating all over the world is really difficult, so we know how to go up the stairs but to say how to navigate the path you took from home to the studio today. How to get to the full path is so much and I'm so problem, but is it because you could you can engineer or you could program it into your Tesla? You could put into your navigation system and have it but red lights drive for you take turns and it can do that a soul. First of all that, I would argue, is we're quite far away from still, but that's within ten twenty years. Well, what can much can it do now it can
I stay inside the lane on the highway? Mmhm aren't on different roads and can change lanes and was being pushed now is they're trying to be able to enter and exit the highway so is but some basic highway driving. It doesn't stop traffic lights, it doesn't stop at stop signs and it doesn't interact with the complex irrational human beings, pedestrians, cars- that's this is the onion I talked about. Is we first in two thousand and five, the DARPA Grand Challenge DARPA organized this challenge in the desert says: let's go across the desert, let's see if we can build an autonomous vehicle that goes across the desert, two thousand and four they did the first one and everybody failed talking about some. The smartest people in the world really tried and and failed, and so they did again two thousand five there's a few Stanford one. Is it really bad ass guy from CMU read that I think
is a marine. He led the team there and they succeeded. The four teams finished Stanford, one that was in the desert there is this feeling that we saw the Thomas driving does that onion, because you then okay? What's the next step, we got a card to travel across the desert, Thomas Lee, what's the next, so in two thousand and seven they did the urban grand challenge. The urban challenge out for urban challenge. Where you drive around the city a little bit and again super hard problem. People took it on CMU, one that won the Stanford. Second, I believe, and and then then there was definitely feeling like yeah we now we had a car drive around the city, it's definitely solved. The problem is those cars were traveling super slow, first of all and second of all, there's no pedestrians
there there's. No, it wasn't real city, it was an art. Artificial is just basically having to stop and different size again, one other layers of the onion, and he said: okay, when we actually have to put this car in a city like la how we're gonna make this work, because if there's no No cars in street and no petitions street driving around it's still hard but doable, and I think, solvable the next five years when you put pedestrians, everybody J walks. If you put human beings into into this interaction, it becomes much much harder. Now, it's not in
bull and I think it's very durable and with completely new interesting ideas, including revolutionizing infrastructure and rethinking a transportation general, it's possible to do the next five ten years. Maybe twenty! But it's not easy. Like everybody says, and does anybody say it's easy yeah? This is the this there's a lot of hype between autonomous behind it times vehicles he almost himself, other people have promised autonomous vehicles. That timeline is already passed. That's been going on in two thousand and eighteen will have autonomous vehicles. Now, four, this their semiautonomous now right. So I know they do. They can break for pedestrians. But if they see pedestrians are supposed to break for them and avoid them, that's part of the technically. No was an issue with an uber car that hit a pedestrian that was operating autonomously. Someone a homeless person stepped out off of median right into traffic.
You nailed it and then they found out it didn't. Have It's one of the settings wasn't in place, that's right, but that wasn't autonomous vehicle being tested in Arizona and fortunes a fatality person, a person died yeah. This was killed. So what happened there? That's the that's! The thing I'm saying is a hard. That's full autonomy! That's technically! When the car you can remove the steering wheel on the cars and drive itself and take right everything everything I've seen. Everything must eating. So we're drivers and Tesla Tesla vehicles we're building our own vehicles. It seems be a long way off before we can solve the fully autonomous driving problem because of pedestrians and but two and pedestrians and cyclists and the edge cases driving all this stuff we take for granted. The same reason we take for granted how hard it is to walk. How hard is to pick up this bottle
or intuition about what's hard and easy is really flawed as human beings can I interject what if all cars were autonomous? If got to a point where every single car on the highway is operating off of a similar, algorithm or off the same system, then things would be far easier right, because then you have to deal with random kinetic movements, people just changing lanes, people looking in there cell phone, not paying attention to what they're doing all sorts of things that you have to be area of right now, driving and pedestrians and bicyclists totally, and that's that's in the round the things I'm talking about where you think outside the box and and revolutionize our transportation system that requires government to to play along seems like that's going out with all right. Do you feel like that
when they were gonna, have autonomous driving pretty much everywhere specimen highway that yet it's not going there in terms of it's? It's very slow. Moving so of government does stuff very slow moving with infrastructure. One of the biggest things you can do for Thomas driving will solve a lot of problems is to paint lane markings regularly right and even that success the been extreme a difficult to do for for cover for yeah. For for politicians right, because right now, there's not really the desire for two but to explain to people what you mean by that
when the lanes are painted very clearly, the cameras in the autonomous vehicles can recognize them and stay inside those wings much more easily yeah. There is two ways that cars see the world three, the different sensors, the big ones for autonomous vehicles, is lidar, which is these lasers of being shot all over the place and three hundred and sixty, and they can give you this point kloter how far stuff is away. Give you the visual texture. Information of this is what brand water bottle. They are and cameras give you that information. So what Tess was using of eight cameras, I think, as they perceive the world with, with with cameras in those two things require different things from the infrastructure. Those two sensors cameras see
well the same mark as our humanize see the world, so they need lane markings. They need infrastructure to be really nice. The visible traffic lights to be visible, sell the same kind of things as humans like to have is the cameras like the have and lay mark is a big. The other there's there's a lot of interesting infrastructure improvements that can happen like traffic lights. Are traffic lights are super dumb right now. A sense, nothing about the world about the density of pedestrians, about the approaching cars. If, if, if traffic less communicate with the car, which it makes perfect sense, it's a it's a it's right there in the sun, the size limitations, it can have a computer inside of it. You can go, coordinate different things that, in terms of the same pedestrian kind of problem, well, we have sensors none streets. So when you pull up to certain lights specially at night, the lie
the red you pull up. Instantaneously turns green because it recognizes that you stepped over or driven over sensor. That's right! So that's a that's a step in the in the right direction, but that's really sort of crew. Twenty years thirty years ago technology say you want to have something like the power of smartphone inside every traffic light is pretty basic to do, but there is way outside of my expertise is how do you get go to do these kinds of improvements. So, if I'm mistaken mode correct me if I'm mistaken, but you're you're, looking at things in terms of what we can do right now, right and garlicky lawn Master SAM Harris is saying yeah, but look at where to technology leads us. If you go back to one thousand nine hundred and sixty the kind of computers that they used to do, the APOLLO mission, you get a whole room. Full of computers that doesn't have
really the same power as the phones in your pocket right now. Now, if you go into the future and exponentially calculate like what's going Take place in terms of our ability to create autonomous vehicle those are ability to create artificial in alegent and all of these things going from what we have right now to what could be in twenty years, We very well might look at some sort of an artificial being that can communicate with you some sort of a ex markina type creature
that's not outside the realm of possibility at all me. You have to be careful with the at all part at all. It's our ability to predict the future is really difficult, but I agree with you: it's not outside the realm of possibility. Yeah and the thing there's there's a few examples that brought along is because I enjoy these predictions, the the the the of how bad we are predicting stuff from the very engineers, the very guys and gals. Like me, sitting before you made some of the worst predictions in history and in terms of both pessimistic and optimistic, the Wright Brothers, one of the Wright Brothers before they flew one thousand nine hundred and three predicted two years before that you'll be fifty years. I confess that in one thousand nine hundred and one that's one of the brothers Talkin, to my brother orville- that man would not fly for fifty years
Two years later, we are cells were making flights. This demonstrate My inability, as a prophet, gave me such shock that I have ever since the stressing myself and it refrained from all prediction. That's why the Wright Brothers, one of the people working at two, that's a pessimistic estimation versus an optimistic explanation or exam. And, in the same Would with Albert Einstein, Fermi made these kind of pessimistic observations for me three years before they, the first query chain reaction as part of that he led the they're developing the bomb he's. He said that woods, his ninety percent coffins is impossible three years before. Okay, so that's on the pessimistic side on the optimist. Look the history of of ai is with with optimistic predictions. The in one thousand nine hundred and sixty five one of the several people in Ai Herbert Simon.
Said machines will be capable within twenty years of doing any work a man can do. He also said In ten years, a digital computer will be the World Chess champion's in fifty eight. Do that until ninety something ninety, so four yeah, but that's one person right minutes, a guy taking a stab in the dark based on what data and, what's the what's, the basis off of our imagination right. We have more data points. Now, though, don't you think in terms of no not about future? That's the thing I'm not about the future, but about what's possible right now. Right and if you look at the pass, is a really bad predictor of the future. If you look at the past, what we've done, the an immense advancements technology has giving us in many ways optimism about what's possible right, but exactly what is possible, we're not good at so. I am much more confident that the world will look fasten
in the different in the future. Whether a I will be part of the world is unclear, it could be. We will all live in a virtual reality world or, for example, one of the things I'm really think about is to me. S, s of really dumb. May I, on one billion, smart phones is potentially more impactful than a super intelligent, a I and one smartphone, the the the the fact that everybody now has smartphones this kind of access to information. The way we communicate the the global nation of everything, the potential impact there of just even subtle improvements, an ally could be in and could completely change the fact for our society in a way where these discussions about an ex markina type, lady walking around will be silly. We'll all be either living on Mars or living virtual reality or
This is so many exciting possibilities right and what I believe in is we have to think about them, but to talk about them, technology is always the source of danger of risk. The all of the biggest things that threatened our civilization at the small and large scale all are connected to misuse of technology we develop and at the same time, is that very technology that will empower us and save us, so there's MAX Tegmark, brilliant guy. At like three point: no, I recommend people read this book on artificial general intelligence. He talks about the race that there there's a there's, a race, they can't be stopped. One is the development of technology, and the other is the development of our wisdom, of how to stop or how to control the technology, and it's this this kind of race
and our wisdom is now is always like one step behind and that's why we need to invest in it and keep sort of keep all thinking about new ideas, so right now we're talking about AI. Don't know what it's going to look like in five years. We have to keep thinking about. We have two through simulation, explore different ideas through conferences. Have debates come up with different approaches of how to solve particular problems, like I said, with bias, or how to solve deep fakes where you fake
you can make Donald Trump for President for President Obama saying anything or you can have Facebook advertising harbored hyper targeted advertisements how we can deal with those situations and constantly have this race of wisdom, verses, the development of technology, but not to sit and think well. Look at the you know, look at the development of technology. Imagine what it could do in fifty years and we're all screwed, because that's important to sort of be nervous about it in that way. But it's not conducive
What do we do about it and the people that know what to do about it? Are the people trying to build this technology building this future one seven anybody know what to do about it because it look let's, let's put in terms of Ilan months, correct. Thank you. One mosque is terrified of of artificial intelligence because he thinks by the time it becomes sentient, it'll be too right. It would be smarter than us and will created our successors and it let me quote Grogan and say that's just one guy yeah! Well, SAM Harris thinks the same thing is a lot. Quite a few people think that, and in a SAM Harris I think, is one of the smartest people I know and Ilan Mosque Intelligence aside is one of the most impactful people. I know you know he's actually. Building these cars and In the narrow, ai sense he's built these autopilot system that we've been studying the way that system works.
Credible is very surprising to me on many levels. It's an incredible dumbest and a I can do in a positive way and in the world. So I don't know, but people can disagree. I'm not sure the functional value of his fear about the possibility of this policies correct his functional value in hitting the brakes before this takes place, the to do be: a person who's standing on top of the rocks, with a light to warn the boats, hey, there's a rock here like, pay attention to where we're going, because there's perils ahead. I think that's what he saying and I don't think, there's anything wrong with saying that and I think there's there's plenty of room for people saying what he saying and people say what you're saying. I think what would hurt us if we try to silence either voice. I think what we need in terms of our understanding of this future is
many many many many many of these conversations where you're dealing with the a bunch of creative interpretations of where this could go an have this questions about where it should go or what could be the possible pitfalls of any current or future action. I don't think there's anything wrong with this when you say like, what's the benefit of thinking in a negative way. Well, it's to prevent demise. So totally I agree on a percent neck negativity or worry about there's a sense of threat. It's really important to have as part of the conversation, but there's this level. There's this line is hard to put into words. Is it is a line that you cross when that worry becomes hyperbole, yeah and and then it so there's something about human psyche where it becomes paralyzing for some reason, right now, when I have beers with my friends
the an ai folks, we actually go. We cross that line all day and have fun. I thought about you, get you drunk right now. Maybe every moment of it. This I talked to Steve Pinker and let me now his book highlights that. That kind of that he's totally doesn't find that appealing, because there's crossing all rounds of rationality and reason you say that opinion? What do you mean crossing the line into what will happen in fifty years? What could have could happen? He doesn't find that appealing. It doesn't find it appealing because he's studied, and I'm not sure I agree with them to the degree that he takes it.
He finds that there's no evidence he he once there too, all our discussions to be grounded in evidence and data in he. If he highlights the fact that there's something about human psyche that desires, this negativity that it once there's there's something undeniable, what we want to create an engineer, the gods that overpowers in distress we want to- or we worry about it, don't know if we want to that. We are let me rephrase that we want to worry about it, there's something about the psyche that, but because you can't take the genie and put it back in the bottle, yeah mean when you say, there's no, no reason to think this way. You have cars that are semi autonomous now and if you do have computers that can beat human beings, who are world, go champions, and if you do have computers that
the people at chess- and you do have people that are consistently working, artificial intelligence. You do have boss dynamics who are getting these robots, do all sorts of spectacular physical stunts and then you think about the possible future convergence of all these technologies, and then you think about the possible city of this exponential increase in technology that allows them to be sentient like within a decade two decades, three decades what what more evidence do you need your seeing all the building blocks of a potential successor being laid out in front of you and you're, seeing what we do with every single aspect of technology we constantly consistently improve and innovate right with everything with computers are cars or anything. Everything today is better than ever thing that was twenty years ago. So, if you looked at artificial intelligence, which does agree does exist to a certain extent and you look at what it could potentially be thirty,
four thousand and fifty years from now, whatever it is. Why wouldn't you look at all these data points and say hey? This could go bad men, it could go great, but it can also go bad. I do not want to be mistaken as the person who is not the champion of the impossible. I agree with you completely also it's impossible at all. I think it's inevitable. I don't, I think, It is inevitable. Yes, it's the SAM Harris argument. If, if is nothing more than information processing
is same as the argument of the simulation they were living in a simulation, that's very difficult to argue against the fact that we're living in a simulation, the question is one and what the world would look like right. So it's it like. I said a race and, and it's difficult you have to balance those two minds. I agree with you totally and I disagree with my fellow robotics folks who don't want to think about it at all course. They don't. They want to buy new houses. They've got a lot of money invested in this adventure. They want to the party role and they don't want to pull the brakes. Everybody pulled the cords out of the walls. We gotta stop no one's going to do. No one, no one's going to come along and say: hey we've run all this data through. Computer- and we found that if we just keep going the way we're going in thirty years from now, we will have a successor that will decide that human beings are outdated and inefficient dangerous to the the actual world that we live in and we're going to wiping them out, but it not
Well, it's not doesn't exist. Right now doesn't exist right now, but if that did happen, if someone did did the UN and had this multi stage presentation with data. It showed that if we continue on the path we're going, we have seven years before artifice. Intelligence decides to eliminate human beings based on these data points what are the Boston dynamics? People do well building a house in Cambridge. What are you talking about man, I'm not going anywhere come on? I just bought a new Tesla. I need to finance this thing. Hey you got credit card bills. I got student loans, I'm still paying off. How do you stop people from doing what they do for a living? How do you say that hey, I know that you would like to look at the future, is rose colored, glasses on, but there's real potential pitfall. It could be the extermination of the human species
I am going to waive far with this and I like it. I think everyone of us trying to build these systems are similar in sound to the way you were talking about the touch of death, in that my dream and the dream of many roboticist is to create intelligence systems that will improve our lives and working really hard at it, not for our house in Cambridge, not for a billion dollar for selling a startup paycheck. We love this stuff, some of you, they did obviously the motivations are different for every single human being. That's involved in every endeavor, an and trying really hard to build the systems and is really hard mmhm. So whenever the the question is well, this is going to look at it historically is going to take off. It can potentially take off any moment. It's very difficult. Two re,
really be cognizant as an engineer about how it takes off, because you're trying to make it take off positive direction and you're failing? Everybody is failing overnight, some character come along and no people with these boring company or was Spacex people didn't think anybody, but NASA could do would be almost as doing and and he's doing it it's hard to think about that too much. You have to do that, but the reality is we're trying to create these super intelligent beings, sure, but isn't the reality, also that we have done things in the past because we were trying to do it and then we realized these have horrific consequences for the human race, like Oppenheimer in the Manhattan project, you know when he said I am death
This trial will destroy of worlds when he was quoting the Bhagavad Gita. When he's detonating, the fur nuclear bomb and realizing what he's done just because something is possible. To do doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea for human beings to do it. Now we haven't distr with the world with Oppenheimer's. Discovery and through the work of the Manhattan project. Have managed to somehow another keep the lid on this shit for the LA This incredible, it's crazy right, you know, and for the last, what seventy years? How long is it been? Seventy sounds right. One thousand and twenty thousand nukes over the world right now crazy, I mean literally, could kill everything on the planet and somehow we got somehow somehow in some amazing way. We have not, but that doesn't I mean we, I mean there's a very short amount of time in relation to the actual lifespan of the earth itself, and certainly. In terms of the time human history's been around and nuclear weapons
Global warming, sure, but that's a side effect of our actions right. This we're talking about a direct effect of ingenuity and innovation, the nuclear bomb, it's a direct effect weed, tried to make it. We made it their coast, global warming, sin accidental consequence of human civilization. So you can't, I don't think it's possible to not build build a nuclear bomb. You don't think it's possible to not bill but in terms because people are tribal, they speak different languages have different desires and needs, and they were adding more. So if all engineers are working towards it. It was not bold, to not build it yet and if, like I said, there's something about us champs in a large collective where we are born and push forward towards progress of technology right, not stop the progress of technology, so the goal is to how to develop how to guide that
Veloppement run into a positive direction. But surely, if we do understand that this has taken place and we did drop, these this enormous bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and killed untold amounts of innocent people with these it's not necessarily always a good thing to pursue technology it. Nobody is so do you see what I'm saying where I'm getting that I agree with you totally more playing devil's advocate in anything, but what what I'm saying is you guys are looking at these things like we're just trying to make these things happen and what I think people like. Lawn musk and SAM Harris, and a bunch of others that have gravely concerned about the potential for ai are saying is that I that's stand what you're doing, but you've got a uh understand the other side of it got under and there are people out there that are terrified that, if you do extrapolated, if you do take, this relate
list thirst for innovation and keep going with it. When you look at what we can do so what human beings can do so far in our crude manner of two two thousand and eighteen will all the amazing things have been able to accomplish its into very possible that we might be creating our successors? This is not outside the realm of possibility and all of our biological limitations might be. We might fit, about a better way in this bed their way might be some sort of an artificial creature. I began with our dream to forge the gods. I would like I think that is impossible to stop. If you go TED, Kaczynski and kill all the people That's what TED Kaczynski anticipated now the Unabomber! Do you know
whole story behind him, no, what was he trying to stop? Who he's a fascinating cat? Here's what's fascinating is a bunch of fascinating things about him, but one of the more fascinating things about him. He was involved in the Harvard LSD studies, so they for a nuke in that dude's brain with acid, and then he goes to Berkeley becomes a bra Cesar takes all his money from teaching and just makes a cabin in the woods and decides to kill people that are involved in the creation of tech, largely because he thinks technology is eventually going to kill off all the people. So he be is crazy and schizophrenic, and who knows what the fuck is wrong with you, and whether or not this would have taken place inevitably or whether this was direct result of his being literally like drowned in LSD. We don't even know how much they gave him or what experiment entailed or how many other people's got their brain torched during these experiments. But we do know for a fact that TED cousins of the Harvard LSD studies, and we do know that he went and did
move to the woods and write his manifesto and start blowing up, people that were involved in technology and the basic thesis of his manifesto that perhaps LSD, open his eyes to is that technology is going to kill humans yeah, and so we should who's gonna be the end of the human race. I think you are believe human race, so the ceiling you know what it is that what you said: you're gonna industrial reticle, and to me the industrial revolution. Its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. Yeah he extrapolated he was look being at? Where we're going, and these people that were responsible for innovation, and he was saying- we're doing this with no regard for the consequences on the human race and he thought the way to stop that to kill people, obviously fucking demented. But this is, and he literally was saying what we're saying right now, you keep going we're fucked,
so the industrial revolution. What to think about that? It's a really important message coming from the wrong guy. But is? Where is where is all this taking us yeah? Where is it so? I guess My underlying assumption is that, during the current capitalist structure of society, We always want a new Iphone. You said one of the best reviewers on yesterday that always talks about Marcus Marcus at we always myself to pixel three m. Have a pixel to I'm. Thinking may have made a unit pixel three. Do I don't know better camera? You know that whatever that is that fire that once more better better mmhm, I just don't think it's possible to stop, and the best thing we can do is to explore ways to guide. It towards safety, where it helps us. When you say it's not possible to stop. You mean collectively as an organism like the human race that it's a tendency that's just built in. It's certainly PASA stop as an individual, because I know
people like my friend ARI who's, giving up on smartphones. He went to a flip phone and he doesn't check social media anymore and he found it to be toxic. He didn't like it. He thought it was too addicted. Do it and he didn't like where it was leading him in front, are near individual level. It's possible individual level, but then, and just like with not a Kaczynski and the individual level is possible to do certain things that try to stop in a more dramatic ways, but I just think the force of our simple this organism, Let's just this living breathing organism that is our civilization. Will progress forward were just curious apes. It's this desire to explore the universe. Why? we want to do these things. Why do we look up and we want to travel in and it's not? I don't think it's sort of we're trying to optimize for survival. In fact,
I don't think most of us would want to be immortal. They think the signal to Grass Tyson talks about the the fact they were mortal. The fact the one day will die is is one of the things that gives life, meaning and sort of trying to worry and trying sort of say wait a minute. Where is this going as opposed to riding the wave and doing riding the wave of of forward progress means one of the things he gets quite a bit of. Ironically, he Ford Steve Pinker, but he really describes in data how our world is getting better and better with what he just gives hate from people that don't want to admit that there's a trend towards things getting better because they feel like then people will ignore all the bad things that are happening right now and all the injustices. I think it's a very short sighted thing, but I think it's because of their own.
And biases, and the the perspective that they're trying to establish and push instead of looking at things objectively and looking at the data and say see, I see where you're going. It doesn't discount the fact that there is injustice in the world and crime and violence and all sorts of terrible things happen to people that are good people on a daily basis, but What he's saying is just look at the actual trend of civilization in the human species itself and there's an undeniable trend towards peace, Lee but surely working towards peace and way safer today way, saver today than it was one thousand years ago. Just it is it just is and there's there's interesting arguments which his book kind of blew my mind to this funny joke. He says that some people consider give nuclear bomb Nobel Peace Prize, because he believes
an expert in this at all, but he believes that sort of or some people believe that nuclear weapons are actually responsible for a lot of the decrease in violence, because all of the major people damage all the Russia and all the major states do damage, have a strong disincentive from engaging in warfare right, and so these are the kinds of things. If you don't and guess, anticipate, and so I think it's some- it's very difficult to stop there for progress, but we have to really worry and think about. Ok, how do we avoid the list of things that we worry about one of the things that people really worry about is the control problem is basically Aib. Coming not necessarily super intelligent, but super powerful, but too much of our lives into it That's where Elon Musk, and that want to provide regulation of some sort, saying wait a minute you have to put some bars and what this thing can do from a government perspective from a company perspective right. But how could you stop rogue states from
doing that. How could you? Why would you? Why would China listen to us? Why would Russia listen to us? Why would other countries that are capable of doing this and maybe don't have the same sort of power that the United States has and they would like to Abbas that kind of power. Why wouldn't they just take the cap off enough philosophical? How little sense there's no reason right if you engineered in some I'm a big. We do this thing with the times vehicles called arguing machines. We have multiple Ai systems argue against each other, so it's possible that you have some ai systems over supervising other AI systems so have so like in our in our nation? There's a congress arguing blue and red states being represented in as this discourse going on debate and have a I'd systems like that too? It doesn't in this any to be one super powerful thing it could be a I
supervising each other. So there's there's interesting ideas there to play with, because, ultimately, what are these artificial intelligence systems doing? We humans place power into your hands first, nor for them to run away with it. We need to put power into their hands, so we have to figure out how we put that power in initially, so it doesn't run away and call supervision can happen right. But this Is us right? You're talking about rational people, what about other people? Why would they engineer limitations into their artificial intelligence and what incentive would they have to do that to some another limit, their artificial intelligence to keep it from having as much power as ours, there's really not a lot of incentive on their their side, especially if there's some sort of competitive advantage for their artificial intelligence to be more ruthless, more sentient, more autonomous mean it. It seems like once again once the Genie is out of the bottle, it's going to be very hard. I have a theory, and this is,
very bizarre theory, but I've been running with this for quite a few years now. I think he can beans or some sort of a caterpillar. I think we're creating a cocoon and through that, cocoon we're going to give birth to a fly and then we're going to become something- and I think, we're whether we're going to have some sort of a symbiotic connection to these electronic things. Were they going to replace our parts, are failing parts with far superior? parts until we're not really a person anymore like who's that Scarlett Johansson Movie, the ghost in the shell. I tried to watch part of its pretty stupid, but she's hot as fuck, so they kept my attention for a little bit, but in that They took her brain and put it in this artificial body that was like had superpowers, and they basically replaced everything about her? That was in her consciousness with these artificial parts at the Oliver frame, everything was just some new thing that was far superior and
we had these abilities that no human being will ever have. I I really wonder why we have this insatiable. Third, why can't we were so logical, were sold, logical and so thoughtful in some ways? Why can't we be that way when it comes to materialism? Why, I think, one of the reasons why is 'cause materialism is the main engin that push innovation if it wasn't for people's desire to get the newest latest and greatest thing. What would fund these new New TV's cell phones, computers? Well, why do you really need a new laptop every year? Is it be? Does engineered obsolescence where the laptop dies off and you have to get a new one 'cause they fucked and they built a shitty machine. That's designed to dice! You buy a new one like iphones, don't you, but can I phones or a laptop yeah? Well what it is it is it because you're are you know you?
You just see the number two dot? Six Giga Hertz is better than two dot. Four, all it's the new one. It has a twelve mega pixel webcam instead of an eight, and for whatever reason we have this desire to get those new things, I think that's what fuels innovation and my cynical view of this thing, that's happening is that, we have this bizarre desire to fuel our demise and that doing so by fuelling technology by my motivating these companies to continue, we innovate know. If everybody just said you know a man, I'm really in a log cabins, and I want to an axe Oregon cut my own firewood. An I really is the tv is rotting. My brain I just want to read books so fuck off and everybody started doing that and everybody started living like when it gets dark out I'll use. Candles and you know what I'm going to get my water from a well, and you know what I'm going to do an I like living better that way. If people started doing that with
would be no need for companies to continually make new computers to make new phones to make new smart watch which is, or whatever the fuck they're making to make cars that can drive themselves. These things or if they were really really attached to. If you looked at the human organism, we've. Somehow another could objectively remove yourself from society and culture and all the things that make us a person- and you look at what we do like what does this thing do we found this planet, there's these little pink monkeys and brown, monkeys and yellow monkeys, and what are they all into? Well, they all seem to into making stuff and what kind of stuff are they making? Well, they keep making better and better stuff, more and more capable. Where is it going? What's going to replace them, they're going to make a thing it's better than them engineering these things slowly, but surely to do all the
they do but doing better yeah and it's a it's a fascinating theory. I mean it's. It's not a theory, it's it's instructive way to think about intelligence in life period. If you step back look across human history, when I look at earth is an organism, and what is this thing doing? The thing is, I think, at at in terms of scale, and in terms of time you can look that way at so many things like. Isn't there billions or trillions organisms on our skin right now, both of us that have little civilizations right? They have a different mechanism by which they operate and interact, but for us to say that we're intelligent and those organisms are not is a very narrow sighted view, so they are operating under some force of nature. That to Darwin is worked on and trying to understand. Some small elements of this is evolutionary theory, but there's other more interesting forces at play that we don't understand, sure and there's some kind of force is. It could be a fundamental for surface
x that that I send never got a chance to discover is our desire for an Iphone update, some some fundamental force of nature somehow gravity in the strong force in these things described by physics. Add up to this drive for new for creation and the the fact that we die the the that that the fact that were mortal the fact that would desires a built in to us whether it's sexual or intellectual or whatever, drives us apes like somehow that all combines to this to this progress and what is it is a compelling way to think that if an alien species did visit earth, I think would probably see the smartphone situation. They see how many little lights are on and looking at them it's possible. I think some people have said that they would think the overlords are the not.
People, so to think that that's now moving into the direction where the future will be something that is beyond human or symbiotic with you in ways we can understand, is really interesting, not just that, but something that we're, rating are celebrating ourselves and it said the main focal point of our existence. That's our purpose! Yeah! I mean, if you think, about a main focal point, if you think about the but the average person what they do, there's a great percentage of our population that has jobs where they work. And one of the ways that they placate themselves doing. These things that they don't really enjoy doing is earning money for objects They want a new car, they want a new house, they want a bigger tv they wanted this or that and way, they motivate themselves to keep showing up at this shitty job is to think, if I just put in
in three more months I can get that Mercedes. If I just do this or that or I can all I can finance this new pixel three, oh yeah, and it's interesting because it's sort of politicians what's the american dream- is for you here this thing I want my children to be better off me is kind of desire. You know you can almost see that that taken for turn far. There will be, there will be a presidential candidate in fifty two years. They'll say I want my children to be robots, you know what I mean. Like idea that that's the natural evolution right is the hyest calling of our species, that scared is me because I value my own life, but does scare you if, if it comes out perfect like if each robot is like a God and each robot is beautiful and loving and they recognize all the great parts of this existence and they
avoid all the jealousy in the nonsense and all the stupid aspects of being a person. We realize that a lot of these things that just sort of biological engineered trick that are designed to keep us surviving from generation after generation. But now here in this fan, mystic new age. We don't need them anymore, yeah, it's well. First, one of the most transformative moments of my life was one and that spot many in person, which is one of the leg of robots bosses, an Amex the first time when I met them. Matt Matt meant that little fella there is, I know exactly how it works. I know every aspect of it works is just a dumb robot but when I met him and he got up- and he looked at me through his work there have you seen a dance now dance. I see the new thing of the dances, crazy, but see it's not crazy on the text
side effects for engineered- it's obvious, it's programmed, but it's crazy to watch like wow this something the the the reason the Mona Transformative. I know exactly how it works, and yet by watching it something about the feeling of it. You like this thing is alive mmhm and there was this terrifying moment, not terrifying, with terrifying appealing where this is the future right like this thing. Thank this thing represents some future. That is totally up that we don't cannot understand just like a Futuro in the eighteenth century of of future with planes and smart phones or something you can understand that this thing that little dog
could have had a human consciousness in it. That was this feeling I had, and I know exactly how it works is nothing close to the intelligence, but it just gives you this picture of what the possibilities are of these living creatures, and I think that's what people feel when they, the Boston Dynamics will call awesome this thing running around. Is they don't care about the technicality how far away we are they see it look. This thing is pretty human and the s abilities of human like things that supersede humans and can evolve and learn so quickly exponentially fast? Is this terrifying frontier that that really make just think as it did for me. Maybe terrifying is a weird word, because when, when look at it and I'm not a rational- and I look at There'S- there's videos that show the progression of Bob Saint dynamics robots from
twelve years ago to today with their capable of? And it's is a fascinating thing, because you're watching the hard work of these engineers and all these people that have design in these systems. An have figured out all of these problems that these things in counter and they've come with, solutions and they continue to innovate and their con only doing it you're seeing this problem and you like wow, we're going to see in a year. What am I going to see in three years, but I want to see in five years it's absolutely fascinating because if you extrapolate and you just keep going boy, go one thousand five hundred and twenty third, b50 a one hundred years now you have x, Makeena at least in our imagination and the home. Is there be so many other things that are super, exciting and interesting sure, but but that doesn't mean it:
It's not crazy. I mean there's many other things you could focus on. Also that are also going to be bizarre and crazy sure. But what about it? Just it it's going somewhere that Fucker is getting better the park everyone is bananas. You see it hopping from box to box and left to right and leap. Jump in the air and you like wow, I think, there's any wires on it. It's not connected to anything. It's just jumping from box to box like that thing? Had a machine gun it was running across a hill at you need to be like oh fuck, how its battery lasts. How many bullets does it have? Let me just say that I would pick TIM Kennedy over that dog for the next fifty years. Fifty so I'm a big TIM Kennedy fan, I'm talking about that
but he'll probably have some robotic additions to his body to improve the well the easy TIM Kennedy anymore. If the brain is TIM Kennedy than he TIM Kennedy, that's the way we think about it, but there is huge can about he won his meeting about. This is a Thomas weapons. It it it's it's so allow me I'd, make decisions about who lives and who dies is really concerning in the short term, it's not about a robotic dog with a shot gun running around it's more about our military, wanted to make destruction as efficient as possible, minimizing human life and drones drones? There's something really uncomfortable to me about drones in how it compared with Dan calling hardcore history. It would Genghis Khan there's something in person about what drugs are doing. Wait. It moves you away from the actual
destruction that you're achieving, where I worry that our ability to encode the ethics into these systems will go wrong in ways. You don't expect round and sell any folks at you and talk about. We have these automated. The drones that make that drop bombs up all over a particular area, so the the bigger and bigger the area is over, which allow, in our official tells a system to make a decision to drop the bombs. The weirder and weirder gets there's some line, the presume, if there's like three tanks, that you would like to destroy the drone, it's okay, frass system to say, I would like to destroy the street like I'll handle. Everything just give me the three tanks, but not this makes me uncomfortable as well, because I think by
I'm opposed to most wars, but it's just militaries military and they try to get the job done now. What if we now expand that to ten twenty one hundred tanks. Where you know, lady, I system drop bombs all over very large areas. How can that go wrong and that's terrifying and there's practically hearing solutions to that oversight, and there is that something that Asian, your sit, sit, downers and engineering ethic? Were you a encoding. You have meetings of. How do we make this safe? That's why you worry about with thing that keeps me up at night is the forty thousand people that die every year in auto crashes like that? I worry about not you have to understand, like I worry about the future of AGI taking over, but that's not as large gi AGI, artificial, general intelligence, that's kind of the terms that people be using for this, but I'm maybe
because I'm in it I worry more about the forty thousand people that die in the United States and the one point two million that die every year from auto crashes. That is more real to me about the death that's happening now that could be held and that's the fight. But of course, if the threat becomes real than then that's a much you know, that's a serious threat to to Hume kind, and that something should be thought about. I just worry that I worry also about the a I winter. The mission is been two winters in the seventies and in the eighties to nineties when funding completely dried up. But more importantly, just people stop getting into artificial intelligence and became cynical about of possibilities
'cause. There's a hype cycle where everyone is really excited about the possibilities of ai, and then they realized five hundred and ten years into the development that we didn't actually achieve anything. It was just too far off too far off same as it was for virtual reality for the longest time. Virtual reality was something that was discussed like even in the 80s and the 90s, but it just died off. Nobody even thought about it. Now, let's come back to the forefront when there's Real ai or a real excuse me real virtual reality that you can use like HTC, vives or things in those lines we can put these moments on, and you really do see these alternative worlds that people have created in these video games and you realize, like this, a practical application for this stuff, because the technology is caught up with the concept yeah and I actually where people stand on VR, we do quite a bit of stuff, a the for research purposes for simulating robotic systems. But I don't know where the hype is '
I know people calm down a little bit on VR, so there was a hype in the 80s and 90s. I think it's ramped up quite a bit what is the other one, the that Oculus rift and what are the? What are the one that just those two dozen main ones, there's other headsets that you can work and use with yeah and there's some you can use just with a Samsung phone, correct yeah in the work in the next generation or which next year to two are going to be all stand alone: systems there's going to be Oculus rift coming out, you don't need a computer or at all, so the ultimate envy. Your end game fear. The horizon of that is the matrix right. That's that's! What people are terrified of of some sort of a virtual reality world? We don't exist in the physical sense anymore. They just plug something into the brainstem just like they do in the mail tricks, and you just locked into this artificial world. Is that terrifying to you as it seems to be less terrifying than ai killing all of humankind? Well, it depends. I mean.
What is life? That's the real question right, if you own, the existence out of a computer program, but it's a wonderful program and you you whatever your consciousness, is, and we have a really establish what that is right. We don't we don't I mean there's a lot of really weird hippie ideas out there. By what consciousness is your body just like an antenna man? And it's just like tuning into con distance in consciousness is all around you? It's Gaia, it's the mother earth, it's the universe itself. If it's God, it's love. Ok, maybe I don't know, but if you could take that over the fuck, it is and send it in a cell phone in New Zealand. Is that where consciousness is now because like if we figure out what consciousness is and get it to the point where we can turn it into a program or do locate it? I mean that's sounds so far away. But if you map to someone from eight
teen twenty and said: hey Man one day, I'm going to take a picture. My dick and I'm gonna send it to this girl she's going to get it on her phone book with the fuck. Are you talking about? What's a photo like a picture, but I, like you, don't draw it it's perfect. It looks exactly like that, it's an hd and I'm going make a video of me taking a shit and I'm going to the only what the fuck is, that even possible get outta here, that is essentially you're, capturing time, you're capturing MOE, moments time. Very, not not a very crude sense but accrued sense in terms of. Comparing it to the actual world in the moment where it's happening like here you and I having this conversation were having it in front of this wooden desk is paper in front of you to you, and I we have access to all the textures that sounds. We can feel the air conditioning. We can look up. We could see the the the the ceiling
where, where are we got the whole thing in front of us 'cause we're really here, but to many people that are watching this on Youtube right now, they're getting a minimized crude version of this that's similar, but it feels real it feels pretty real. It's pretty close, it's a pretty close, so I mean I listen to a podcast for a while you usually have so when I listen to a podcast. It feels like I'm sitting in with friends. Listening to a conversation does not as intense as, for example, Dan Carlin's hardcore history. For the guys, like talking to me about the darkest aspects of human nature he shows so good. I don't think you can call it a podcast, it's not as an, yeah you're, there I was, I was hanging out with him and getting his Colin and I was in world war, one world war, two painful tainment is an episode he had. We talks very dark ideas about our human, a
desiring the observation of the torture and suffering of others. There's something really appealing to us. He has this whole episode, he'll throughout history, who you liked. Sing. People die and there's. Something really dark is saying that if somebody streamed something like that now, it would probably get hundreds of millions use yeah. It would and we're protecting our cell from our own nature 'cause. We understand the destructive aspects of it. That's why you two would pull something like that if you tide a person in between two trucks and pull them apart and put that on, you too, we would get millions of hits, but you two would pull it. 'cause we've decided as a society collectively that those kind of images are gruesome. In terrible for us, but nevertheless that experience of listening to his podcast, let's show it feels real, just like VR for me
This really strongly real aspects to it, where I'm not sure, I'm not sure that if the VR technology gets much better to where, if you had a choice between, do you want to live your life in the? Are you go you're going to die? Just like you would in in real life and all you are is in VR and you're going to live in that world, which life would you choose? Would you choose its life in the er, or would you choose a real that was the guy's decision in the matrix right? you guys decide in the matrix. You wanted to be a special person in the matrix. It was eating that steak talked in the hasn't, decided he's going to give up. Remember that decision you, I mean what is reality if it's not what you're experiencing if you're experiencing something, but it's not tactile in the sense that you can't drag it somewhere and put it on a scale and take a ruler two. It measure it, but
in the moment of being there it seems like it is. What is missing? What is missing? Well, it's not real. Well, what is real, then what is real, but that's the uh good question terms of like. Are we living in a simulation? That's one of things that long brought up when I was talking to him- and this is one thing that people have struggled with. If we are one day going to come up with an artificial reality. This indiscernible from reality, Inter terms of emotions in terms of experiences, field touch smell all all of the sensory input that you get from the regular world, if that's in ever if one day we do come up with that. How were we did discern whether or not we've already created that and we're stuck in it right now that we can't and a lot of philosophical arguments for that, but that, gets at the end? The nature of reality is, I mean it's fascinating, because we're okay, we're totally clueless about what it means to be
real what it to exist to exist so consciousness. For us, it's incredible like look at your own hand, like I'm pretty sure, I'm on the Joe Rogan experience podcast, I'm pretty sure is not real, I'm imagining all of it. There's a knife in front of me. I mean it's bill and I have no proof that is not fake and and those kinds of things actually coming to play with the way we think about artificial intelligence. To like what is intelligence, it seems like. It seems like we're easily impressed by by algorithms an robots we create that appear to have intelligence, But we still don't know what is intelligent and how close those things are to us. And we think that ourselves as this biological entity that can think and talk and cry and laugh, we're somehow another more important than some sort of silicone based thing that
we create that, does everything that we do but far better yeah. I think I think, if I were to take a stand still right stand. I hope I'm young a one day run for president on the spot for whether that in defending the right. So I can't because I'm russian, but maybe it'll change, roles that it's the you know, robots will have rights and I'll I'll see. You know the robots, let is matter, and I actually believe that we're going to have to start struggling with the idea of how we interact with robots IC, too often the abuse of robots and not just the Boston Dynamics, but literally people. Leave them alone with the robot that dark nature of human dark aspects of human nature comes out, and it's worrying to me, I would like robot that's parse, but only can move it like fifty percent of what I can move out. So I could fuck it up, The practice like really well like you would to
like some awesome, like sparring instincts robot, but they would still be consequences like if you did look got and you got lazy. Init leg kicks you didn't check, it would hurt. I would love to like a last dream of that session, because the you know there's so many ways I used to I mean I had practice on a dummy. There is aspects to dummy, that's helpful, yeah in terms of the positioning and where what were your stances and technique yeah right into it. I can certainly that go see that going wrong in ways where a robot might not respect you tapping down over Robert says to beat you to death is tired of you fucking it up every day and one day you get tired or what, if sprain your ankle, and it gets on top of you and mounts you and just starts blasting in the face and the heel hook or something right. You have to be able to say, stop now, you're going to have to use your martial art to defend yourself yeah right, because if you make it too easy for the robot just stopping time,
then you're not really going to learn like one of the consequences. Is it raining if you're out of shape is, if you get tired people fuck you up and then incentive for you to not get tired like there is so the times that I would be in the gym like doing is trying to get this thing. I think about moments where I got tapped, we guys go taught me in something that I was exhausted, I couldn't get out of the triangle and like shit, and I just Goodnight just really push on the treadmill or you know, push on the you know: air Dyne Bike or whatever it was that I was doing thinking about those moments getting tired yeah those moment, that's what I think, but when I do like sprints and stuff, that was the feeling of competition, those nerves of stepping in there. It's really hard to do that kind of visualization, but it builds affective though, and the feeling of Consequ. This is to you not having any enerji, so you have to muster up the energy, because, if you don't you're going to give a fuck
or something bad is going to happen to someone you care about or something something's going to happen to the world? Maybe you're super Gary saving the world from the robots. That's right, but go back to what we're talking about sorry to interrupt you, but just to bring this all back around What is what is this life and what is consciousness? And what does this experience and if you can replicate this experience in a way, that's indiscernible? Will you choose to do that like? If someone says to you hey, you don't have much time left, but what we have an option. We have an option and we can take your conscious this. As you know, it right now put it in this program. You will have no. The idea that this is happened. You're, going to close your eyes are going to wake up. You're going to be in the most beautiful greenfield is going to be naked women everywhere, feast everywhere you go, is going to be just picnic tables filled with the most glorious food you're. Going to drive around and Ferrari Everyday and fly around
what plane you never going to die. You can have a great time or taking chances, see what happens when the lights shut off. Well. First, on the simple man, I don't need multiple women. One is good. I'm romantically unless you say, but that's in this world, this world you've got insane did not be greedy in this other world. I can breathe under water and fly through the air, and you you know nah. I I believe that scarcity is the fundamental ingredient of happiness. So if, if you give me seventy two virgins or whatever it is, and type one slot s, like Sierra a requirement, you know somebody is intelligent and interesting who enjoys sexual intercourse? Well, not enjoy sexual, like once a person. Well that and keeps things interesting Lex we can engineer,
all this into your experience. As you don't need all these different women. I get it. I understand. We've got this program for you, don't worry about it. Ok, you! one and a normal car, like maybe a saab or something like that. Nothing, crazy, right, yeah but your simple man I get it, but you need which ask with someone who could beat you every now and then right yeah, but not just chess. So engineers flaws six. Okay, you need to be able to lose her every once in a land of the matrix on the red dress, which grow the red dress. That comes right here. Memory goes like. Did you see another sticker on the red dress? It's like the one that catches his attention. I remember this. This is right at the very beginning, when he's telling of what the matrix is. She walks very here issues but bam. That's your girl, the guy! After just like I and tell you it's not that it's it's just not it's not well yeah, but then I have certain features like I'm, not an Iphone guy like Android, so that that may be an Iphone persons girl, that's nonsense, I
so if an Iphone came along that was better than Android, you wouldn't want to use it. No, my just definition of better is different. Like I know, for me: happiness lies when Android phones, Android phones, connection with other human beings who are flawed, but interesting or passion about what they do yeah? But this is all engineered into your program. Yeah! That's I'm requesting feature here is your Christine features, but why why Android phones is that like I'm, I'm a Republican, I'm a Democrat like androids I'll. I got a phone. Is that what you're doing to get in trouble? Not a lecture onyx, I totally not travel. I was just representing if I figured the girl in the red dress. It just seems like an Iphone as a feature, so I imagine that the features are matching too hot yeah and it seems like she's not interested in dusty zewski. How would you know
That's so precious of you just because she's, beautiful and she's got a tight fitting dresses. I don't know, that's very you. That's! Dare you sexy son of a bitch outside? Actually what that was, she probably likes meet you and dusty House can come and he'll say he did her Phd in astrophysics, pass away, yeah? I know that's what we were talking about all the trappings. Look at that bam I'll take her all day, phone Andrew I'll, take ourselves in this conversation shaker if she's a windows phone. How about that? I don't give a fuck window Someone come on now I'll, take her if she's a windows phone I'll go to flip phone from the fucking early 2000s I'll, take a razor Motorola Razor phone with, like thirty seven minutes of battery life, but we're talking about all the learned, experiences and preferences that you've developed in your time here in this actual real earth or what we're assuming is the actual real earth. But how are we I mean if you
or, if you really are taking in new account the possibility that one day something someone whether it's artificial intelligence figures it out or we figured out engineering. Some sort of a simulation that is due just real Israel's this world, like But there is no there's, no it's in possible to discern not only did not impossible to discern people choose not to discern anymore, because it's so Why bother? Why bother discerning? That's a fascinating concept to me, but I think that world not the sound hippie or anything but I think that I think we live in a world. That's pretty damn good! That is pretty good, so, but improving it with such fine. Fine. Ladies walking around it's not necessarily that the adult that's positive, okay, but that's one out,
aspect of the improvement. What about improving it in in this new world? There's no drone attacks in Yemen that killed Children- there's no rape, there's no sexual harassment, there's no! There's no racism is no any all the negative aspects of our current culture or engineered out. I think I think a lot of religions of struggle with this. Course. I would say I would want a world without that, but part of me thinks that our world is meaningful because of the suffering in right! That's a real problem! Isn't it that's a real There is a fascinating concept. It's almost impossible to ignore do you appreciate love because of all the hate you have a hard time finding a girlfriend and just no ones potable and I'm single by the way Holla let the ladies know. But if you
So if you do have a hard time connecting with someone and then you finally do connect with someone off after all those years of loneliness, and this person is perfectly patible with you? How much more we appreciate them, then the guy, like Dan Bilzerian, was full turn around in a private jet. Bang intends all day long or maybe it's fucking drowning in his own sorrow. Maybe he's got too much too much prosperity, maybe yeah yeah, we have yeah social networks to the people that I mean people famous, the model of you get a huge. It might be because of the overflow of love. It might be difficult appreciate, more like genuine little moments of love and, for me no. I spent a lot of time thinking about that and I also spent a lot of things. I'm thinking about how quickly bizarre my place in the world is, I mean, I
think about it, a lot and I spent a lot of time being poor and being a loser mean. Might my childhood was not the best? I went. Through a lot of struggle. When I was young that I cling to like a safety rat raft, you know, don't don't ever think, there's something special about Maine I try to let everybody know that you anybody could do what I've done it. You just have to just keep going well, that's like ninety. Nine percent of this thing is just showing up and keep going, keep improving. And keep working at things and keep going put the time in. But the interesting thing is you haven't actually What days ago went back to your first podcast and listen to it, you haven't really changed much. I mean the audio guy will better just like the the year, the genuine nature of the way you interact, hasn't changed and that's for a fascinating, because you know fame changes. People was very famous.
I just was playing a different way. Yeah I was famous. I was already famous from fear factor. We already had stand up comedy specials already had already been on a sitcom I wasn't as famous as I am now, but I understood what it is. I'm a big believer in adversity and struggle. I think there are very important for you and it's one of the reasons I appreciate martial arts, it's one This is why I've been drawn to it as a learning tool, not just as something where it's a puzzle that I'm fascinated to try to figure out how to get better at the puzzle and mark. So this is a really good example, because you never really the best specially when there's just so many people doing it. It's like you're always going to get beat bye guys, and then I was never. I was never put in the kind of time into it as a outside of my taekwondo competition, I was never really putting all day
every day into it like a lot of people that I would train would, and so I always get dominated by the really best guys. So this so amount of humility that comes from that as well, but there's there's, a struggle in that you're learning about yourself and your own limits, Ann and the limits of the human mind and endurance and just not understanding all the various interactions of techniques- and you know, there's there's humility to that in that uh- describe martial arts as a vehicle for developing your own shoe potential. But I think marathon running has similar aspects. I think, when you're just figure out a way to keep pushing and push through the control of your mind and your desire, an overcoming adversity, I think overcoming adversity is critical for the human for humans. We have this these set of reward systems, though,
who designed to to reward us for overcoming for overcoming obstacles for overcoming relationship struggles, for overcoming physical imitations and those rewards are great, and there are some of the most amazing moments in life when you do overcome an. I think this is sort of engineered into the system. So for me same is almost like a cheat code. It's like you. Really. Why want it? Don't dwell on that man like that? That's like a free buffet like you, don't you You want to go, hunt your own food. You want to make your own fire. You want to cook it yourself and feel the satisfaction you don't want people feeding you grapes when you lie down what is the hardest to talk challenge a lot what's the hardest thing, when will have you been really humbled, martial arts for sure the MO the mercy on blank you have from the moment I started on them. I mean I got really
but taekwondo, but even then I'd still get the fuck beating on me by my friends, not training part, especially when you're, tired and you're doing your wrote Bing Partners and guys are bigger than you just just humbling, martial arts very humbling. I got a call yacht in something he talk about education system. Sometimes I've heard you say: it'll broken in high school and so on. I'm not really calling out. I just I just want to talk about is I think it's important and somebody who loves math but your own journey was school, didn't give you value. Well, you can maybe talk to that. But for me what I always maybe I'm sick in the head or something but for me math
was exciting way. Martial arts were exciting for you, because it was really hard I wanted to quit and the idea of education. I have that that that seems to be flawed nowadays. A little bit is that we want to make education easier, that we want to make you no more test so on a access of course is great, but you kind of forget in that and that those are all good goals you for getting that that it's supposed to be also harden and like teachers just the way, your wrestling coach. If you you like quit. You say I can't do anymore. I have to come up with some kind of excuse. You wrestling coach looks at you want to say get your ass back on them that the same way, I wish math t shirt did, when people say it's almost like cool now to too say eyes, not math, sucks Mass, not for me or science sucks as besiegers boring. I think they're a dish, there's room for some
culture where says: none and all you're, not if you just put in the time and you struggle, then that opens up the universe to you like whether you become a Neil Degrasse Tyson or the next feels metal winter in mathematics. I would not argue with you for one. Second, I would also say that one of the more beautiful things human beings is that we very so much that one person who is just obsessed with playing the trombone and to me I don't give a fuck about trombones, but that's ok like I can't be obsessed about everything. Some people love golf and they just want to play it all day. Long. I've never played golf a day in my life, so miniature golf and just fucking around, but that doesn't it's not bad or good. And I think there's definitely some scales that you learn from mathematics that are hugely significant. If you want to go into type of fields that you're involved in
For me, it's never been appealing, but it's not that it was just difficult. It's also that it just for whatever reason who I was at that time in that school, with those teachers having a life experience that I had, that was not what I was drawn to, but I was drawn to his literature. I was draw to reading. I was drawn to stories. I was drawn to possibilities and creativity. I was drawn to all those things during artist of it too yeah yeah. It used to be want to be a comic book illustrator. That was that was a big thing. When I was young, I was really into comic books. I was really into additional comic books and also a lot of the horror comics from the 1970s, the black and white like creepy and eerie the Jefferson those things creepy and eerie like black and right, yeah they were. There were a com, book series that
existed like way. Back in the day was all they were all horror and they were like really cool illustrations in these wild stories, but it was comic books, but they were all black and white. That's creepy and eerie the actual name, yeah eerie and creepy were the names to like that was from what year was that it's a September? But it doesn't say what year when I used to get these when I was a little kid man, I was like eight nine years old in the 70s good and evil yeah it was they were. They were my favorite like that's. A cover of a man like tv light covers that were done by like Frank, Frazetta, Boris Vallejo and just really cool shit, and I was fat Those I love those. When I was little. I was always really into horror, movies and really into like brand like look at this werewolf one that was one of my favorite ones. That was crazy. Well, it was like all all who is the hero. Usually superhero heroes. Everybody dies in those.
Think about it. Everybody gets fucked over. There is nobody, was the thing that I really liked about them, like nobody made it out alive. There was no, one guy who figured it out and rescued the woman. They wrote off in the sunset, but you would turn the corner and they'd be a fucking pack of wolves with glowing eyes waiting a tear everybody apart and that be the end of the book, and just I was just really into the illustrations. I found them fascinating. I just I love those kind of harm movies, and I love those kinds of so that's what I wanted to do when I was young yeah. I think the education system is probably we talked about. Creativity is probably not as good at creativity. I think math and wrestling can be taught 'cause. I think creativity is math, being. Actually, I know nothing about it, so I think it's harder to take somebody like you when you're young and say inspire you to pursue that fire. Whatever is inside one of the best ways to inspire people is by giving
I'm a give bring them these alternatives that are so like saying, you're going to get a job selling washing machines, and you like fuck that I'm going to figure out a way to not get a job selling washing machines like some of the best motivations that I've ever had have been terrible jobs. 'cause you all these terrible jobs ago, ok, fuck that I'm going to figure out a way to not do this. You know, and you got one call, eighty d, R, a d h, d e or whatever it is. It makes kids squirming class. I didn't score every class and squirm in science class. I didn't squirm in you know in interesting subjects, there's things that were interesting to Maine, that I would be locked and completely fascinated by and there these things where I just couldn't wait to run out of that room, and I don't know what the reason is. But I do know that a lot of what we call
education system is engineered for a very specific adult. That result is you want to get a kid who can sit in class and learn so that they could sit in a job and perform and that, for whatever reason that was just I mean I didn't have the ideal childhood. Maybe maybe, if I did, I would be more inclined to lean that way, but you want to do anything like that, like I couldn't wait to get the fuck out of school, or so I did never have to listen to anybody like that again and then, just a few years later I mean you, graduated high school in your eighteen. When I was twenty one, I was a stand up comic and I was like I found it. This is it and my good found, there's an actual job that nobody told me about where you could just make fun of shit and people go out and they pay money to hear you create jokes and routines and bits really. You weren't terrified of stand up getting on stage and
Oh, I was definitely nervous the first time, probably more nervous in his heart and providing no aspect is different. It's different the concept This is on his grave, but that's one but are they not now? Thank God there is meant and you're, not you don't get pummeled. I mean there's just there's you could say like emotionally, it's probably more devastating or as devastating, but man losing a fight. Is it fucks you up for long time. You feel like shit for a long time, but then you win. You feel amazing, for a long time too, when you kill, on stage? You only feel good for like an hour or so it goes away, feels normal just normal. It's this life, you know, but I think that it prepared me a competing in martial arts, the fear of that and then how hard it is to like to stand opposite,
another person who's the same size is you who is equally well trained, was also martial arts expert and they ask you, are you ready? Are you ready you bow to each other and then they go fight? And then you, like fuck here we go that to me, probably there's like one of the best prep and to do that. From the time I was fifteen till I was twenty one was probably the best preparation for anything that was difficult to because it was so fucking scary and then to go from that into stand up. I think it prepared me for stand up 'cause. I was already used to doing things that were now. I seek scary things out. I see I see difficult thing I picking up the bow and and learning that yeah, this archery, which is really difficult, mean. There's, there's uh it's one of the reasons why I got attracted even to playing pool pool is very difficult, it's very difficult to pull your nerves on high pressure situations so that there's there's some benefits of that, but
but it goes back to what you were saying earlier, how much of all this stuff, like when you're saying that scarcity, there's is real value in scarcity and that there's real value in struggle and how of all this is just engineered into our human system that it has given, thus the tools and the incentive to make it to two eighteen with the human species yeah. I think it's over. The engineer is whether it's got nature or whatever I think it's engineered, and somehow that's we get to think about that when you try to create an artificial intelligence system when you mention what's a perfect system for you, we talked about this with the with the lady. What's the perfect system for you, I if you had entered really put down on paper and engineer. What's the experience of your life, She looks a lot like your current life, so this is the column that companies are facing like Amazon.
In trying to create Alexa. What do you want from Alexa? Do you want a tool that says what the weather is or do you want to Alexa to say Joe? I don't talk to you right now. I have Alexa, where you have to work, are overly Alexa come on what do I? Do? I'm sorry, listen. If I was rude, I was insensitive. I was tired, It was really rough, and they should be like I'm seeing somebody else. Alexa. Do you, member? avatar depression the movie avatar in depression is a psychological effect after the movies yeah. It was a real term that people were using. That psychologists were using, because people would see the movie avatar, which I loved, a lot of people said it open Pocahontas with blue people to those people I say. Fuck off you want to talk about suspension of disbelief that to me that movie was the ultimate suspension of disbelief. I love that movie. I fucking love that I can't
no James Cameron's working on like fifteen sequels right now, all simultaneously. I wish that mother fuck, would dole them out he's like a uh crack dealer. That gets you hooked once and then you just waiting outside in the cold shivering for years, avatar Pression was uh, psychological term that psychologists were using to describe this mass influx of people. That's all that movie and we're so enthralled by the way the navi lived Pandorum that they came back to. This stupid world believe they wanted to be like the blue guy in avatar, and it also there was a is a mechanism in that film, where this reg other person became an avi. He became it through the avatar and then eventually that tree of life or whatever it was, they transfer his essence into this, create this avatar and he became one of them. He became
one of them, he absorbed their culture and it was very much like our room fantasized versions of the native Americans, that they live moved in symbiotic relationship with the earth. They own only took what they needed they they had a spiritual connection to their food and to nature and to the just. Their existence was noble, and it was honorable and it wasn't selfish and it was powerful and it was spiritual and we're missing. These things were missing these things and I think we are better at fantasizing them and craving them as opposed to living them. As I Maybe you look at movies like happy people with life from the Thai Garden life in the taiga is yeah I'm Russian Warner, her socks film, making movies he wants to be like well, I want to be out there in nature, focusing on simple survival. Setting traps for animals cookie
some soup family around you and just kind of focusing on the basics but and I'm the same way like I go out, you know hiking and I go out in nature. I would love to pick up hunting and- and I want I crave that, but I'm if you just put me in the forest I'll, probably in the like it, I'm taking your phone away in your state here. That's it you're, never going to return to your facebook and you twitter in in your robots. I don't know if I'll be so romantic about that notion anymore. I don't know either, but I think that's also genie in the bottle discussion. I think that genies been out of the bottle for so long that would be like. But what am I facebook? But if I got some messages check my email, real, quick, no, no, no, we're in the forest there's! No! Wi Fi out here, no Wi Fi ever what the fuck? How do people get your porn?
This is bill porn. No, that's another understudied, again, not an expert, but the impact of internet pornography on culture. Oh yeah significant and also ignored, to a certain extent, and, if not ignored, definitely purposefully left out of the conversation. Yeah there's another Phd student who came to give a tech talk and you opening by saying ninety have you in the audience have this month. Google, a pornographic term in our search engine- and it was really adds- is a great opener, because people were just all really uncomfortable, yeah 'cause. We just kind of hide it away into this, but it certainly hasn't
active. I think, there's a suppression aspect to that too. That's on healthy. We we so we we have a suppression of our sexuality, be because we think that somehow another it's negative now and especially for women. I mean for women like then a man who is a sexual conqueror is thought to be a stud or as a woman who say, speaks out. Multiple desirable sexual partners is thought to be troubled or something wrong with her. You know they're criticized there. They use terms like we used earlier, like slut or whore. You know there's no, You call man, mail, slot, they'll start laughing yup. That's me, dude, like men, don't give a fuck about that. It's not it's! Not stigmatize but somehow another through our culture, it's stigmatized for women and then the idea of masturbation is stigmatized these all these different things that we are Puritan RU. Roots of our society starts showing an r.
Religious ideology starts showing when we discuss our For me, this is something I'd think about a little bit, because my dream is to create an artificial intelligence, the human scent artificial intelligence system that provides a deep, meaningful connection with another human being, and you have to consider the fact that we're not He or sex sex dolls will be part of that journey. Somehow in society, something you're the dummy they'll be using for martial arts would likely to be an outside our development of a of sex robots and have to think about. What's the impact of those kinds of robots on Syfy Women in particular are violently opposed to sex robots. I've read a read a couple of articles.
Written by women, about sex robots in the possibility of future sex robots- and I wouldn't have violently- but it's always negative- so is the idea that men would want to have sex with some beautiful thing. That's program to love them as opposed to earning the love of a woman, but you don't here that same interpretation from men from men it. Seems to be that there's a thought about, maybe it's kind of gross, but also that it's inevitable that and then there's like this, like so of nod to it like how crazy would that be. If you had the perfect woman, like the woman in the red dress in the matrix yeah, but she comes over your house and she's perfect, because you're, not thinking about the ternative, which is a male, Midol, which will I'll be able to satisfy your girlfriend wife better than you. I think, you'll hear from guys a lot more maybe
maybe like star comedic, with her she's fucking annoying she's, always yelling at me, letter yell at the robot, he doesn't he's not going care, then that robots are until grappling yeah and maybe she can get just go ahead and get fat with the robot he's. Not even care go ahead. Ronnie Cheetos all day and screaming him he's he's your slave good. I mean you both ways. Work the same way that a man would the woman would see a man that is interested in a sex robot to be disgusting and pathetic. Aman could and see the same thing in a woman. That's interested in a sex robot like ok. This is that what you want to do some crude thing that just wants, physical pleasure and you don't we care about a real, actual emotional connection, to a biological, human being okay! Well, then you're, not my kind of woman anyway an but if done
so, those are the kinds of in terms of threats of ai. To me it can change the fabric of society. Because, like I'm old school in this sense, I like monogamy for example, Well, you say that 'cause, I don't have a girlfriend so long for monogamy wanted for one is better to zero. Well now, the real reason of girlfriend is because and is with people like you actually with with with Elon Musk. The time is a huge challenge, because, because of how much a romantic I am beat, this is how much I care about people around me. I feel like it's a significant investment of time and also the amount of work that you do. I mean if you're you're, dedicated to passion like artificial intelligence and
the sheer amount of studying and research and and programming to gather certain disciplines in which you have to certain disciplines require like Siempre, so talk about writing. You can get pretty far to three hours a day when you're programming, when you do a lot of the engineering tasks they just take of ours, is just how which is why I really one of the reasons I may disagree with you all muscle, but much of things but he's an inspiration. 'cause. I think, he's a pretty good dad right and he finds the time for his sons, while being probably in order of magnitude busier than I am and is fascinating to me how that's possible. Well, once you have children, I mean there obviously are people that are bad, dad, but once you have children, your life shifts in almost describable way because you're your different,
it's not just the year, life is different when you have a child like your daily. There hasn't been a moment while we're having this conversation that I have been thinking about my children, thinking about what they're doing where they are. It's always running in the background. It's a part of life you're connected to, people that you love so much and they rely on you for guidance and four and affection, and how did your life have to change an which you just change. When you see the baby, you change when you start feeding them, you change. When you hold them, you change my you? You hold their hand while they walk you change. When they ask you questions change when they laugh and giggle you change when they smack in the face, and you pretend to fall down. They laugh you change every You just change menu change. You become a different thing. You become a dad, so you almost can't help, but some people do help. Though that's what sad some people reside.
I mean I know people that have been terrible, terrible parents they just they'd rather stay out all night and never come home and they don't want to take care of their kids and they get split up with the wife or the girl. Then who's got the kid and they don't give child support. If it's a really common theme, man I mean there's a lot of men out there that don't pay child support. That's a dark dark thing: you have a child out there that needs food and you don't want your so fucking selfish. You don't want to provide resources. Not only do you not want to be there for companionship, you don't want to provide resources to pay for the child's food. You don't feel responsible. For I mean that was my case when I was a kid. My dad didn't pay child support and we were very poor. It's one of the reasons why we were so poor I know other people that have that same experience, so it's not everyone that becomes a father or that impregnates. I should say away:
woman and becomes of, and the other side is true to there's women that are terrible mothers. For whatever reason mean their broken psychologically. Maybe they have mental health issues and whatever it is, there's some women that are fucking terrible moms and it's sad, but it makes you Women that are great mom, so much more wanna, see guys like you at the inspiration is so I'm looking for. What's the process to then fit people into your life, but what I hear is when it happens you just do The changes, but this is the thing men were not living in a book right. We're not living in a movie doesn't always happen like you have to decide that you wanted to happen and you got to go looking for it, because if you don't, you could just be older or end still alone. Time goes a lot of my friends that they've never had kids and now they're. In there cities I mean comedians yeah. You have to be on the road, a lot not just on the road. You have to be obsessed with comedy like it
got to be something you're you're, always writing new jokes, because you're always reading a new, especially you put out a special right like I just did a Netflix special it's out now so on the whole feeling of like a half hour Newman to yeah, let's set and great by the way strangers. Thank you very much. First special I've watched It was actually really weird decided to go on a tangent, but I listen to you quite a bit, but I have never looked at you doing comedy and was so different. 'cause like here you just like like improvised, like a jazz musician here, it's like a regular conversation. Thus no special, it was clear like that's like everything is perfect. The timing. It's like watching. You do a different art. Almost it is interesting. It's like a song or something it's like you. Don't
there's some riffing to it. There's some improvisation to it, but it's also there's a very clear structure to it, but it that's resents. There's it's so time intensive and you have to you got to be obsessed with it to continue to do something like that, so for some people that travel in the road that takes priority over all things, including relationships, and then you never really settled down, and so you never. You never have a significant relationship with someone that you can have a child with, and I know many friends that are like that and now no friends gotten vasectomy, because they don't want it. They like this life and there's nothing wrong with that either. You know that I was was upset by this notion that in order to your full and complete adult you have to have a child. You have to be a parent and I think even as a parent or I think it's probably one of the most again, and things in my life. I reject that notion. I think you could absolutely beaufour. We develop person and amazing
influence in society and amazing contributor to your culture in your community. Without ever having a with your man or a woman, it's entirely possible the idea that it's not a silly like we're all different in so many different ways. You know and we contribute in so many different ways likes them. There's going to be people it obsessed with mathematics is going to be people that are obsessed with literature. There's going to be people that are obsessed with music and they don't all have to be the same. Fucking person 'cause. You really don't have enough time for it to be the same person you know and there's go the people that love having children, they love being a dad or love being a mom, and then it's going to be really don't? Wanna have nothing to do with that and they get snipped early and then like fuck off I'm going to smoke cigarettes and drink booze, and I'm Fly around the world and talk shit and those people are okay to like the way we interact with each other. That's most important. That's what I think the way human beings do. We form bonds and friendships. The way we we can trip
to each others lives the way we find our passion and create those things are what's really important. Yeah, but there's also an element just looking at my parents. I think they got there still together to gotten together what it means standard you get to go when you're like twenty or that should know this, but two thousand three hundred and twenty: Whatever young- and there is an element there, where you don't want to be too rational, he's going to be just died in ' should you be in Emma Mae fighter? Should you be like now some research scientist, the pay is much much lower than all the offers I'm getting nonstop. Is it rational, I don't know, but your passion is doing what you're doing currently, but it's like what are the other offers like what kind of other jobs are they appealing in anyway, yeah yeah they're, appealing so
a I'm making a decision that's similar to actually getting married, which is so that offers are go well. I should comma go ahead, the usual the usual AI research, pretty high positions and a Does your sub menu that says the edge the chaos of this environment at MIT is something I'm drawn to. It doesn't make sense, so I could do one pass about on a lot of places. He just kind of dive in Nablus. I had a sense that a lot of our culture creates that momentum just kind of have to go with it and that that's why my parents got together like a lot of people. They're, probably I mean a lot of p couples wouldn't be together if they wanna, kinda, culturally forced be together and divorce was such a negative thing.
We grew together and created a super happy connection, so I'm a little afraid of over rationality about choosing the path of life. So you're saying. Like monogamy, doesn't know or not, monogamy relationship, don't always make sense. They don't have to make sense. You know what I think, I'm a big believer in doing what you want to do and if you want to be involved in monogamist relationship. I think you should do it, but if you don't want to be involved one, I think you should do that too. I mean if you want to like a nomad and travel around the world and just live out of a backpack. I don't think there's anything wrong with that as long as you're healthy and you survive and you're not depressed, and you not longing for something that you're not participating in. I think what, when you are doing something you don't want to be doing it, it brings back to was it the rose? but I guess I was fucked up who made this? What I think I know yeah
Most men live lives of silent desperation. That's that's real! That's a real! That's real! You! Don't that's what you don't want. It's there all right check, I'm you don't want sound. Does yeah. It is wrong that I fucking love. That quote, because I've seen a scene in so many people's faces, and that's one thing: I've managed to avoid and I don't know if I avoided that by luck or Just follow my instincts, whether they are right or wrong or make it work, but- goes back to what we were discussing when in terms of what is the nature of reality and what what are these? We just find. And these fantasized interpretation means of our own biological needs in our human reward systems. That's creating these beautiful vision. So what is life and what is important, poetry and food and music in all the passions and dancing and ho
holding someone in your arms you care for deeply and all those things just little tricks. All those little biological tricks in order to keep keep on on this very strange dance of human civilization, so that we can keep on creating new and better products that keep on moving innovation towards this ultimate eventual goal. Of artificial intelligence of giving birth to the gods giving birth to the gods yeah, so you know I did want to mention one thing about the the thing I really don't understand fully, but I've been thinking about for the last couple years at the application of artificial intelligence to on to politics, yeah I've. I've heard you talk about sort of Indiana government being broken sense that one guy one president, that is making sense. I see you get like you know: people get hundreds of millions of
the likes on their Facebook pictures and Instagram, and we're always voting with ARF fingers every single day and yet for election process. It seems that voting like once every four years. It feels like this new technology could bring about a world where the voice of the people can be heard on a daily basis like where you could speak about the issues you care about, whether it's gone control and abortion, all the all. These topics that are so Healy so debated. It feels like there needs to be an instagram for elections. I agree and I think, there's room for that. I've been thinking about how to write a few papers of proposing different technologies. It just feels like the people that are playing. Politics needs you. Old school. The only problem with that is like the influencers right. If you look at Instagram I mean, should.
Nicki Minaj be able to decide how the world works. 'cause she's got the most. Followers should Kim Kardashian like who's influencing And why- and you have to deal with the fickle nature of human beings and do we give enough patience it's towards the decisions of these, so called leaders that were electing do adored, you just decide fuck them there out new person in. 'cause, we have like a really short attention span when it comes to think, especially today at the new cycle, so quick I think that might be a bad example, because yeah you get or twitter, you start following Donald Trump or, and you start to sort of idea, I see certain icons that do we necessarily want them to represent us. I was more thinking about the the Amazon product reviews, model, recommender systems or Netflix. The movies you've watched the Netflix learning enough about you to represent you in your next movie selection.
So in the kind of movies like what do you like you, Joe Rogan? What are the kind of movies that you would like the recommender systems? These artificial intelligence system learn based on your netflix selection that could be deeper understanding of who you are then you're even aware of, I think there's that element, I'm not sure exactly, but there's that of learning. Who you are like. Do you think drugs should be legalized or not? Do you think I think immigration should we let everybody in I'll keep everybody out. Should we all these topics with the red and blue teams now have a hard answer. Of course you keep all the immigrants out or, of course you need to be more compassionate, of course, but for most it was really a gray area and exploring the gray area the way you would explore the gray area of Netflix, what his next move you're watching? Do you want to look
watch little mermaid or godfather to what that process? understanding who you are it just? It feels like that there's room for the what the problem is, of course, that you had this grave to these decisions that you're going to make in terms of the way it affects the community, and you might I have any information that you're basing this on at all. You might be basing all these decisions on me information propaganda, nonsense, advertising. Easily influenced you might not have looked into it all. You could be ignorant about the subject and it might just appeal to certain dynamics that and programmed into your brain, because you grew up religious or you grew up an atheist or you know. The real problem is whether or not more educated about the consequences of what these decisions were going to get the information yeah, and then I think I mean I think, there's going to be a
time in our in our life, where our ability to access information is as many steps better than it is now with smartphones. I think we're only like Elon Musk has some neural link thing that he's working on right now is being very vague about him. Increase the bandwidth of our human interaction with machines is what he's working, yeah I'm very interested to see where this leads, but I think that we can assume that, because something like the internet came along and because it's accessible to you and I right now with your phone just pick it up say: hey, Google, what the fuck is this and then you get you the answer almost instantaneously, that's going to change! Well what a person is as that advances, and I think we're much more like looking at some sort of a symbiotic connection between us and artifice, the intelligence and Computer augmented ACT says to information.
Then we are looking at the rise of some artificial being that takes us over and fucks are girlfriend well yeah, that's the real existential threat yeah. I I think so that's to me Denise super exciting the phone as a portal to this collective go ahead and collective consciousness, and it gives people a voice. I would say if anyone is like me, you really know very little about the politicians you're voting for or even the issues like global warming, I'm embarrassed to say very little about like if I'm actually being honest with myself. I've heard different like I know what I'm supposed to believe as a scientist, but actually know nothing about Hong Kong. And not nothing concrete about process above about the environmental process. And why is it so certain? You know. Scientists apparently completely agree
So, as a scientist, I kind of take on faith often times what the community agrees in my own discipline I questioned but outside I just kind of take on faith. In the same thing, with the gun, control well and so on. You just kind of say which team of my own and I'm just going to take that out. I just feel like it's such a destructible space to where people could be given just a tiny bit more information to help them. Well, maybe that's where something like neural link long and just enhances our ability to access this stuff in a way, that's much more, just more tangible than just being able to go search it, and maybe this this process is something that we really can anticipate. It's going to have to happen to us just like who were talking about cell phone images that just send Australia with the click of a button. No one would have ever anticipated that three hundred years ago, maybe we are beyond our capacity for understanding the impact of all this yeah yeah. Maybe it's coming up now. What is that world
and look like when you're too old to You'll be sitting you'll, be like ninety five sitting on a porch with a shotgun and what are those kids look like when they're eighteen years old robots? an x ray vision and they could read minds yeah. What is going to happen? You would be saying: robots are everywhere these days back back in my day we used to put what's in their place, yeah right, they were serving shut him off all the plug and I will fuck your mom and now they want to go to the same school as us yeah and they want to do want to run for president now I want to run for president yeah yeah they're, more compassionate and smarter, but we still hate them because they don't go to the bathroom. Well, not not. We half the country with and the other would love them and Abraham Lincoln Character will come along. That's kitchen and I saw the other day for him linking of the robot world other about world. That's if, if the speeches that every quotes and one
Another thing I to say about academia: okay of academia so you've had a lot of really smart people on including SAM Harris. And Jordan Peterson and often the word. Academia is used to replace a certain concept. So I'm part of academia and most of academia is engineering, is biology is medicine. Is hard Sciences, the humanities that are slippery exactly in met, and I think, a subset of humanity's that I know nothing about in their subset. I don't want to speak about, say it. I don't know so any band candy man, candy man. I actually live on Harvard Campus, so I'm at MIT, but I live on Harvard Campus and yeah it's there, so they have a partments for you guys how's that work yeah. They hand them out is no. I just I don't really live on the campus. What do you mean Sorry
Indiana Harvard Square Harvard Square in Cambridge in Cambridge, so I I used to go to catch a rising star when it existed used to be a great comedy club in Cambridge. There's a few others, a few good comedy clubs there. Well, there's a chinese restaurant that has stand up there still How does that work? Well, it's upstairs is like this comedy club up there. Yeah do you ever because you've done. I think your specials in Boston. Yes, I did at the Wilbur theater, have you ever? just go back to Boston, doing like that chinese restaurant Ding ho yeah? That was before my time when I came around, I started in nineteen. Eighty eight, the Ding ho it already ended, but I you know I got to be friends with like Lenny Clarke and tone tv and all these people. That told me about the Ding HO and Kenny Rogers Rogerson. The com is that we're in Barry Crimmins, who just passed away rest in peace who is really the godfather that whole scene and the one of the
major reasons why that scene was so re, some rock solid morals and ethics. When it came to the creation of material and standards, it was a lot of it was Barry, Crimmins excuse just to just that's just who he was as a person you know, but It was before my time I came around when I came around like four years after that stuff, and so there was the comedy clubs, it was everywhere, but I just didn't get a chance to be around that the Ding HO scene, a new state of Boston, for how many They moved out here. I was in New York in by the time. I think it was in New York by nine thousand two hundred and ninety one. Ninety two. So in Boston for four or five years too and stand up and then you get to from boss
New York manager met my match. One Jesus opportunity for you to talk before about Connecticut people get so upset. At main, it's become a running theme. Talk Shit about Connecticut. Here. I've heard you do about one. I just had a buddy who did a gig in Connecticut told me was fucking horrible. I go. I told you bitch, you should listen to me. Don't book gigs in Connecticut the Fucks wrong with you, this forty nine other states that go to Alaska. That's great! You go back to Boston, do like small gigs, small, sometimes yeah I'll do, laugh. Boston is a great club. I used to unit calmly, stop and all the other ones there, but I You know, I love the Wilbur. The world is a great place to perform. I love Boston. I would live there if it wasn't so fucking cold in the winter, but that's what keeps people like me out keeps the Pooh
he's away, because we gonna end. This will wrap it up. We were to be done three hours. Pollution flies by he did it flew by can say to the shore shore. So first I gotta give a shout out to my shut out shout out too long long time, friend matter, Andy from Chicago It's been there all along he's. A fan of the pocket, so he's probably listening him and his wife. I had just had a beautiful baby girl, so I want send my love to him and I told myself out ended this way. Ok. Let me end the way you wanna end. It love is the answer. Love is, the answer is probably is unless you're a robot by Thank you, everyone for tuning into the show and thank you to our sponsors. Thank you to the cash cash. I have the number one mother fucking finance, app in the app store you can download
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Transcript generated on 2019-10-05.