« The Joe Rogan Experience

#1208 - Jordan Peterson

2018-11-29 | 🔗
Jordan Peterson is a clinical psychologist and tenured professor of psychology at the University of Toronto. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL_f53ZEJxp8TtlOkHwMV9Q All Dr. Peterson’s self-improvement writing programs at https://www.understandmyself.com/ 20% off for Rogan listeners. Code: ROGAN
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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great deal on home security, go to Simplisafe, dot com Rogan, to get this special holiday offer and make sure you use that url. So they know that we sent you that simply save dot com, Slash Rogan S. I am P L. I s a f e dot com, Slash Rogan My guess today you are my favorite people to talk to, I think, he's one of the most misrepresented and misunderstood people and all of pop culture. Today, he's a brilliant man, he is my friend, please for Jordan Peterson, the Joe Rogan experience eight year old, hello, Jordan, how you doing man I'm doing great. You have of the so that you have in the amount of energy and enthusiasm you maintain with the schedule is very remarkable. 'cause you're, not stopping you're, not
slowing down. I mean you've had your foot on the gas for like two college years, now make a well, the sun shines. I guess so it is that how you feel about it? Well, you know when you have an opportunity, that's completely preposterous you're, a fool to take it for granted. Yeah. I noticed that so and Seattle I mean I have been two hundred cities since January, so everywhere you know and part of what keeps us going well. First of all, I have a really good ' You know like the ca, guys, they're, really good live nation's, been really good. They make sure the theaters are smooth and, and we had no problems at all, and then I have lots of people who are helping me with my scheduling and Tammy travels with me and then the the lectures themselves. Well, I really like doing them part, because I do a different lecture, every night, and so that keeps me sharp and it make sure that I'm thinking about new things all the time and trying to formulate my thoughts more precisely, and there are also
so unbelievably positive. So that's also that's also something that makes it a lot easier to do, because you know I go to a city and there's one thousand five hundred to two thousand people waiting for me there, which is like staggering in and of itself wherever I go and they're all they're listening intently and and it's it's a sophisticated discussion, or at least as sophisticated as I can make it, and I'm communicating directly with the audience and all the people are there to try to get lives together, and so the the the feeling in the in the hole is really really positive and then I we talked to about a hundred and fifty people afterwards and you know they're they all of them all of them, while many of them, you know they just say hi and they're polite, and we have a photograph and all that, but lots of them have stories about how they've been put their lives together. They're in their thrilled to death about it. You know that they are out of the whole. They were in or they've started a new business,
they sold a new business or they just decided to get married or they're going to have some kids. Are they fixed up the relationship with their parents or they quit drinking or and they're they're not addicted? I talked to one guy in Europe. He'd stop. He was he was addicted. I don't remember what too, but it was. It was something that wasn't good. He said, he'd stop for nine months. Got nine of his friends to quit. To So he comes up it's just like bouncing. You know he's so damn happy that his life is better and not only that that he had this additional positive effect on other people so and it's so fun because I have these conversations with people their brief, but they're very Perce well and they're, very intense. You know, because they they think people have to trust you to tell you that their lives weren't going so well. And then they have to trust you even more to tell you that they're going better now, because of course, what you want, when you tell someone
that things are going better, as you want real encouragement, an real sense from the person you're talking to that they are happy for you, and I am absolutely thrilled to hear these things like. I was in whole foods This morning I went down near where I'm staying and two of the guys that work behind the meat counter came out to talk to me and independently and they'd both be reading my books and watching my lectures and one of them said he had a seven year old son. He really wanted to do right by him. He was looking for ethical and moral guidance, and you know he found the books really helpful and then it was helping him put his life together. And so car guy at the car rental place last night, told me the same thing, and so it's exciting so Riddick really exciting to go everywhere around the world and to go into air order to walk down the street and have people come up and say uh. Watching you on Youtube to be often mention you Rb Listen
so what you say, I've been developing a vision for my life. It's really help me a lot thanks a lot and Jesus like to be able to have that happen. You know time after time, day after day, all over the place, that's just absolutely. It makes go into one hundred cities like continually our energizing, because it's so positive and so and then there's all this weird crap in the press. You know about my dangerous followers and all this old right nonsense and it's so ridiculous. You know I've talked to two hundred and fifty thousand people in in in seven months we haven't had one incident that was negative in that entire time. No, one, nothing, no misbehavior on anyone's part with one heckler, who was obviously not a fan of mine, given that he was a heckler that was it other than that the audiences behave perfectly. They all dress up. They come in suits, which is really cool lot of young guys they dress up, so they have a little suit.
Issue with me, which is quite fun. So that's an additional bonus and yeah. It's it's pretty damn good Joe. I think it's really fantastic and I think what's going on is it makes me very optimistic because I think that one of the things that new media has provided is these new avenues for information to get out there and these new things like these lecture circuits. When was the last time you saw a public lecture circuits that were popular to the tune of thousands and thousands of people. I saw once a you and SAM Harris did on you too, and you know SAM's doing them a lot of other people's well you're doing them at the bottom of the jet, with Dave Rubin as well yeah. These are the I mean this is a very unique thing. That's for sure, and also this desire to understand new paths of behavior and patterns of thinking and that these are corrective house patterns that can you more fulfilled and happier life and and recognize the pitfalls of certain types of behave.
That people just fall into, and I think often times the difference between someone who lives a fulfilled life and so who lives a life filled with disaster is following incorrect patterns. And not knowing what the correct ones are. So there's a lot of good people out there, that lives, shity lawyers, and they don't do it because they're they're, just dumb or because they're bad, they do it because they influenced by certain patterns. They fall into patterns, whether it's because of the people that they surround themselves with, for the the good, the bad neighborhood to grew up the the people around them have this way of being, and they kind of only know that it's drugs or alcohol or whatever it is, but then they find a new one and then they can slide right into that new one and all sudden, they feel better. As in the wake up in the morning, instead of hung over the getting exercise in there eating healthy they're, starting to think about things correctly and do good things in the momentum of them doing those good things leads them to feel good about themselves and energized, and this is these raw
Things that you promote- and I think are genuinely really significant yeah, really well anybody that's the thing is it gets maligned? It gets you get pushed into this well where in the demo, but if a but but what we're talking about before the pocket, a small select group of people, it's a very small but vocal minority that wants to miss at present you and then there's the periphery that listen to the small group and then they? sort of parrot those words out without any real thinking about what you said. Well, you know one of the things that I have made a mistake about in the past that I just realized in the last couple of weeks was that you know people often accused
just me and they say well most of the people that listen to you or men, and I think that you know when you're accused like that, your automatic response is well. You wouldn't be accused if you weren't doing something wrong, so there must be something wrong about that. It's like, why isn't it fifty percent women, and so I've said things like well, you know. Eighty percent of the people who watch Youtube videos are men, and so the fact that eighty percent of the people who watch my videos are men isn't that surprising, given that base rate, but then about three weeks ago, I started thinking well what what the hell am? I doing it's like What is there some wrong with talking to man? Is that actually a problem? So I'm trying to I'm trying to I mean I didn't set out to do that specifically, but if that's the way it's working out and- and there is a majority of men coming to my shows say then- is that why is that all of a sudden supposed to be I'd think I'm asking men to you know to be more honest and especially in their speech and they're thinking and to be more it's possible for themselves and for their family and for the community and to grow up.
Hand to shoulder their burden and deliver responsible and meaningful life and putting those two things together, conceptually it's like and then there's accusation about. That is, if there's something wrong, and I thought why am I even playing into this? It's like fine, I'm talking to men, I'm encouraged, I am absolutely thrilled like every time. Someone comes up to me and that's happening. I maybe a hundred times a week or something like that and tells me one of these stories about how they put their life together, it's like I'm absolutely thrilled about that, and so I don't see it's just a sign of how pathological our times have become in some sense that there would have been any guilt about that to begin with, because well, how is that not a good thing? Man? It's weird. I think
a lot of that has to do with this concept, that man a running everything and that men have this massive advantage. There's a white male advantage and privilege that we all enjoy and share, and that men have this advantage financially. There's disparity in terms of the the gender gap in pay it you know, and- and income and that if you were really a good person, you would be looking out, he would be trying to balance that out and then you wouldn't be trying to up the winning team right. This is like where the funny thing well, that's it and that's part of that narrative that well, if there's winners there, There has to be losers, and the reason that there are losers is because there's winners and that's the bloody nonsense because, as far as I'm concerned it- and I really believe this is that every single person who sets out to put themselves together ethically, is in net positive to everyone around them. There's no downside to that. You know my book has been criticized by people. Who've, read it very poorly, especially chapter one. When I talk about hierarchies that I'm
Somehow supporting the idea that power, or in a hierarchy, is the right way to be, and that there's absolutely nothing in what I've written. It suggests that, at all, like I'm suggesting human hierarchies are very complex and that the way that you win, in a human hierarchy, is by being competent and reciprocal, and so- and so I mean, for example, even if you're selfish, let's say you got to think very. Klay, but what that would mean if you were selfish and awake, because you have to work to take care of yourself and what you what say in this moment, but then there's do tomorrow and there's you next We can there's you next month, next year and ten years from now, when you're old, so because you're self, conscious and because you're aware of the future you're, actually a community unto yourself and if you're, selfish and impulsive. All that means is that you're serving the person. You are right now. You know in that impulsive way, but not the person you're going to be, and so that's not a good grounds for any sort of ethical behavior.
When I see that, if you serve yourself properly, there's no difference between that bring your family properly and serving your community properly those things, all mesh in a kind of a harmonious manner and one of the things that's really being effective in the lecture tour is a discussion about that idea and its relationship between the relationship between that and meaning and responsibility, because one of the things that The audience is silent constantly because I'm always listening to them to see you know when the attention is maximally focused is whenever I point out to people that the antidote to the meaninglessness of their life and the suffering and the malevolence that they might be displaying because there resent and bitter about how things have turned out that adult to that is to take on more responsibility for themselves and for other people and the that's aspirational, which is kind of cool. You know the conservative types, the duty types and I'm not complaining about them. You know
they're, always basically saying well. This is how you should act, because in some sense that's your duty right, that's how a good citizen would act and that's a reasonable argument, but the case that I'd be making is more that well, there is a there is value distinctions between things. Some things are worth doing and some things aren't and you can count to discover what that is for yourself and then you should aim at the things that are most worth doing and what you'll find if you watch carefully, is that the things that you find worth doing are almost always associated with an increase in responsibility. 'cause, if you think about the people you admire, for example, you spontaneously admire people, and not some manifestation of the instinct imitate again. People are very imitate, if you don't admire people who don't take care of themselves like in less there something wrong with you. You at least want an admirable person to be accountable for themselves and then, if they've got some
left over, so they can be accountable for their family. Well, then, that's a net plus, obviously that someone, you think, is solid and then maybe the here's some more people they have a business or they're involved in the community and some positive way you see Well, that's a person. Who's pattern of being is worth imitating and so, and that's all associated with responsibility, and it's so interesting because it's as if it's as if. Everybody kind of knows this, but that it hasn't crystallized. It's like well, you should be responsible, because that's what a good citizen is, it's not! No, no! You should be responsive because you need to have a deep meaning in your life to offset the suffering. So you don't get bitter and the way you do that is to bear a heavy load. You know to get yourself in check for you now and for you in the future and then to do the same for your family and your community and that there's real nobility in that and there's real meaning and more
other thing that I've been suggesting to people, and I also believe this is that, and I think that the guys that have come to talk to me, especially the ones that have had real real rough lives, they really understand this. You don't get your act together and you let yourself slide, then what what kind of moves in to take the place of what you could have been is something that's really not good at all. So it's not only that if you're living a like a dissolute life, that you're not aiming at anything positive, and so you don't have any real meaning in your subsumed by anxiety and all of that hopelessness, but something kind of polish moves in there to to to occupy that place is so then you end up making things worse and when you know one of the things learn about studying totalitarian systems. Whether they were on the right or the left. Was that part of the reason that the totalitarian
wars of the 20th century manifested themselves because average people didn't take on the proper responsibility they shut their eyes when their eyes should have been open, even though they knew it and they didn't said things they knew they shouldn't have done and said, and that was what supported those horrible systems So you know, if you don't get your act together, then you leave a little space for hell and I really believe that, don't you think when things are happening, like something like Nazi Germany. I would have Imagine that during that time the people that were not in support of it felt helpless, whether you're in Germany you're, a part of this country is country, is turning towards this horrible the situation where jewish people are being put in trains, and you know the people that didn't speak out in that. I don't necessarily know if it's a lack of discipline or just complete fear, paralysis in is on on its or for
Sure I mean you know, have knowledge of how to deal with who is doing to wanting to protect your family as well. Wanting to step out of line have salute all yeah. Well, that's the thing. The problem is that if you're going to forestall that sort of thing, you have to do it early You know the longer you wait, the higher the price you pay for it, but is it is so it's hard to take that chomped early, because you're not exactly sure where it's going? That's true and your energy well and you're also likely to be John Don yeah, and you can see that happening in our own culture. You know, yeah, you make a mistake on twitter or even something that isn't a mistake, and you know you can pay a well what feels to be a pretty hyper Now, whether it is a high price are not as hard to tell 'cause Twitter is so weirdly fictional. You know it's so hard to to get your to get a grasp on exactly. Going on. What's that it's it's also your comprehension of what what your emotional reaction to people that you don't know being mean to you like. This is like what
what is that price and people? Some people want to dismiss that as being not just nothing. It's not that big a deal, but it is a big deal. It causes people to commit, aside, I mean it has absolutely bowling online, has caused many people to commit to us all. The thing is you know when you the the weird thing about that online communication. Is that, like I find that I tend to react to a negative twitter, comment as if it's someone sitting across from me talking to me that I know now, it's not, and I don't even if the person is real or because the they're, often anonymous right, so the person isn't really real, but your emotional responses still well so it's going out of their way to be harshly critical to you, You know when that doesn't happen, that often in your day to day life- and so you know, if you're a reasonable person you're very sensitive to criticism, because it's rare and
as you might be wrong, especially if there's a lot of people criticizing you 'cause, you kind of have to be psychopathic in order to brush that off. You know it's like well, one hundred people think I'm wrong, there's nothing to that. It's like well! If it's one hundred a lot of a hundred million, but you can't tell on twitter right then it's irrelevant, but if it's a mob of on, should people did show up outside your house, which is quite kind of what twitter feels like. Then you think! Well, god you know, I must have done something wrong because otherwise, why would all these people be here right now? And I think that's why so many people are driven to apologize. You know when they, when they do something on twitter and or do something and then the twitter mobs go after them. They think oh I must have done something wrong. I should I should you know: do some soul, searching and yeah? So some of that's not even fear, it's more like it's. It's in a sense some morality. That's misplaced! Because of
inability to calibrate the social messaging mean. I've stopped almost completely stopped, reading twitter comments in the last month, and I'm definitely better for it. Yeah boy happier yeah it's just it's too much. It's too much, it's too crazy. What is your number up to now? The number of followers about a million on Twitter? That's that's when it's about time to get out of Dodge yeah yeah! Well I mean I'm still following people in reading where people are posting, but no the comments, I'm just I'm just not worth no it's not yeah and and- and I think it does have something to do with the technology itself like. I do believe that that small limit arm facilitates angry impulsive risk, bonding, perhaps shows you're trying to get people to respond to you. But the alternative is Facebook, where you have these long posts just rambling for first drafts that people put out LX when it get good
This is my start ranting about politics or what have you? I just can't get involved there just too big and then people jump, and comment on him and often their comments are massive as well. It's just too verbose, whereas the good thing about Twitter, as it makes you boil down what You're trying to say to a very succinct thing, although I do enjoy. When someone has a good twitter thread like there was a really good twitter thread, is a german name, respectable lawyer, respectable law? He wrote a history of the sentinelese people that that you know this uncontacted tribe in the Indian see where they this. This gentleman went there to try to commissioners Chan. Yes, on four arrows yeah and he wrote this long history of these people and what what the cut, what they've had to indoor with being you know, and if you people going to them and doing some awful some things and
season stuff, and so I I enjoy when someone will do that, like these long like every now and then someone will use it in a in a in a novel way. I really like down, but there's some did. You know a lot of. It is just people just trying to get a reaction and what's the reaction they can get by pissing you off. That's like the best one. Well, they also might be the ones that are most like it. We don't know exactly know what motivates people to respond on twitter and it might be that The fundamental motivation for twitter responses is anger rather than desire to share something 'cause. We don't know anything about how these new communication techniques function psychologically right. Maybe twitter is skewed ninety percent towards people who are impulsively angry at that moment it could easily be. We don't know, like you know, if you're driving in your car and someone cuts you off you first. You know at least I do, and, and it's often a situational issue, rather than a personality flaw on the part of the other driver, even though it's easy to assume that, but you respond impulsively mean
God only knows how how much of our social media networks are set up to differentially reward impulsive behavior and it's also not that easy to hold people accountable in some sense and maybe there's some utility to that, but with enormous accounts and all of that no name. It is also problematic because it it it's, certainly enables people to allow their worst to manifest themselves, especially if the resentful and angry. The only benefit that I can see to anonymity is it gives you the opportunity to explore controversial ideas without true true and I think, use correctly well, that's it. I said that that's true, I think, there's there's some utility. I mean. I don't think that it should be forbidden, but well like most things. It's had. It has its advantages and its disadvantages, like most things, is not entirely negative to be in the hey. So I figured something out that I thought I'd tell you about. This took me like thirty years to figure out, and I figured it out on this tour. So there's this old idea. You know that you have to rescue your father from the belly of the whale right from some
monster. That's deep in the abyss! You see that, but, for example, but it's very common idea: I figured out why that is. I think so imagine that we already know from a clinical perspective that you know if you set out a path towards a goal which, want to do because you need to go and you need a pass, because that provides you with positive emotion right so you set up. Something is valuable, so applies a hierarchy. He set up. Something is valuable. You decide that you're, Do that, instead of other things, so that's kind of a sacrifice because you're sacrificing everything else to pursue that, and then you experience a fair bit of positive emotion and meaning, as you watch yourself move to that's the goal, and so the implication of that is the better the goal, the more full rich. Your experience is going to be when you pursue it. So that's one of the reasons of of that's one of the reasons for developing a vision and for fleshing yourself out philosophically, because you want to aim at the high school that you can manage. Okay, so you do,
that and then what you'll find? Is that as you move towards the goal, there are certain things that that that you have to accomplish that frighten you. You know. Maybe you have to learn to be speaker, better writer, a better thinker. You have to be better to people around you or you learn some new skills in your freight of that whatever, because it's going to stretch you if you, if you pursue a goal and it's and so that'll put you up against challenges, okay, so all the clinical data into gates or the opposite of safe spaces, as Jonathan Height has been pointing out that what you want to do when you, I did buy something that someone is avoiding that they need to do because they're afraid, have them voluntary voluntarily confronted, and so you break it down what you try to if your behavior therapist as you break down the thing they're avoiding into smaller and smaller pieces. Until you find a piece it's small enough, so they'll do it and it doesn't really matter
long as they started. You know, then they can put the next piece on the next piece and what happens is they don't get less afraid exactly the get braver they get big? It's like there's more of them you can and and here's. Why so imagine you do something new. And that's informative right, there's information in the action and then you can incorporate that information and turn it into a skill and turn it into a transformation of your perceptions. So there's more to you because you've tried something new. So that's one thing, but the second thing is: there's good biological evidence for this. Now that, if you put yourself in a new situation, then new Jeans code for new proteins and build- neural structures and new nervous system structures. Same thing happens to some degree when you work out right because your your muscles are responding to the load. Your nervous system. Does that too? So you imagine that there's a lot of ten, you locked in your genetic code and then
put yourself in a new situation. Then then they stress that the situational stress that's produced by that particular situation, unlocks those jeans and then builds new parts of you, and so that's very cool 'cause who know how much there is locked inside of you, okay, so now here's the idea, so let's assume that that scales as you take on heavier and heavier loads. That more and more of you you get more and more informed because you're doing more and more difficult things more and more of you gets unlocked, and so then, what that would imply is that if you got to the point where you could look at the darkest thing, so that would be the a b s right. That would be the deepest of this if you could look at the harshest things like the most brutal parts of the suffering of the world and the malevolence of people and society. If you could look that, look at that straight and and directly
that would turn you on maximally, and so that's the idea of rescuing your father, because imagine that you're, like the potential komposit of of all your all the ancestral wisdom, that's locked inside of you biologically but that's not going to come out at all unless you stress yourself, unless you, unless you challenge yourself and the big The challenge you take on the more that's going to turn on that, as you take on a broader and broader range of challenges, and you push Joe harder than more and more of what you could be turns on and that's equivalent to transforming self into their ancestral farther into alt, because you're like the. What would you call it you're the consequences of all these living beings that have come before you and that's all part of your bylaws
equal potentiality, and then, if you can push yourself, then all of that clicks on, and that turns you into who you could be that's and that's the re representation of that positive ancestral father. So that's why you rescue your father from the belly of the beast, so you when did this ultimate goal of sort of sacrifice, end of in your life in order to save someone, who's truly important to you. That, this somehow or another maximize your potential as a human being. Well, I think I think you can think about it religiously too, so you say think about it. This way, so in in the christian story, for example, you have Christ does two things that are met. Mess I attic one is takes the suffering of the world unto himself 'cause. That's weird idea, okay, so what does that mean? Let's think about it psychologically? Well, maybe it means that. Well, that's your job is the world full of suffering, and you should accept that as your responsibility, past present and future
you're supposed to do something about that as much as you can about it, and maybe you start with your own localized suffering, you know put yourself together, but then you expand that outward and you decide that it's you're, not a victim of that, even though you know your part and parcel of it, but you're you're the potential solution to that, and so you accept that as a responsibility. So that's part of taking on a load, that's part of bearing a cross. You could look at it that way. The cross is sort of a symbol of the place of maximal suffering. Okay, so you accept that as a challenge, not as a not as something that you're victimized by. Maybe you accept that as the price of beer? Okay, so that's one, that's one! responsibility, you're responsible for addressing the suffering in the world, so I could give you some meaning seemed to me the next thing is there's a story, of course that Christ met the devil in the desert and so that's the encounter with malevolence. So that would be the other thing, because the two major problems that people face obviously are suffering tragedy and malevolence
and so that's the other thing that you're responsible for is that you're supposed to look at the capacity for human evil. As clearly as you possibly can it's a very terrifying thing. You know that causes post matic stress disorder in people that aren't accustomed to it in in the myth, Paula gee, that's associated with the encounter with evil. It's almost always the case that the entity that does the encountering, even if it does it voluntarily is, is, is hurt by it. So the egyptian God Horus, for example, who's the I the falcon the thing that can see and pay attention when he encounters his evil uncle Seth, who's, the precursor of say He loses an eye 'cause, it's no joke to encounter malevolence. You know it can really shake you, but the idea would be that if you can face the malevolence and you can face the suffering, then that maximally that opens the door to your maximal potential and then the option
the optimistic part of that is that this is this is why it's so useful to peer into the darkness. Let's say the op optimist part of that is, is that, although the suffering is great and the malevolence is, is deep, your capacity to transcend it is stronger. So what you get out of the most negative viewpoint is the most pause, the possible consequences, because one of the things you'd like to know if you wanted to know something deep about yourself, is that you could face the worst that there wasn't prevail, and I believe that I believe that I believe that that people are capable of that. I think that the How tragic life is, and how malevolent things are that, fundamentally, our spirit, let's say, has the capacity to to confront that and to fix it like psychologically to confront confronted courageously to be able to bear up under that, if you do it voluntarily, but also to address it, not only to deal with it psychologically, but to deal with it practically and then we could make things. Much
there's, always a striving towards utopia. Right like this is the ultimate goal. That is, if you use people, would you like out of civilization, MOD, like everyone to be happy and everyone to get along in there to be no war? Nothing, no suffering, no anything, but in order really truly learn about yourself and about life. You have to overcome adversity. You have to experience things and I firmly believe that, in order to truly appreciate love, you have to understand. I really have felt hate Anne to really appreciate camaraderie, you have to feel loneliness with. This is just a part of being a person for whatever reason like you see the other thing that I've been thinking along, the same lines is that you know it isn't so in the in the biblical stories in a neighbor hammock stories, for example, Abraham basically hangs around his dad's tend to lease, like eight
he's one of these guys that fails to launch you know in a big way and God eventually get sick and tired of him. Like you know, playing video games in his basement says: get the hell out there into the world and and have a life and soul. He does. He leaves his his father's tetanus his community and his and his country, which is what he's coming wanted to do and then he goes out and has an adventure. But you know the first thing: he encounters is a famine and then he encounters a tyranny, and then he encounters a bunch of people in the tyrannical state that want to take his wife. And so you can imagine that Abraham's response to that is like it was a hell of a lot better sitting in my dad's tent playing video games, what's cool about that story? What I realized, when I was doing the lectures on it last year, was that that was a call to venture. You know one and that the right way of conceptualizing, what we're talking about, isn't that you told me it would be a place where everyone was happy because, because and I think because of what you just laid out is you need that polarity? You know and
people need a load and we need adversity and we need difficulty. We need all of that So maybe what you want is an adventure, the greatest adventure that you could have and that would involve. You know something to push against. It would the real challenge, and so just seek dusty s. We do this because, when he wrote notes from under which I would highly recommend to everyone, who's listing it's a great book and it's a very short book. Eight. He criticized socialist utopia back in like eighteen. Sixty wait wait before it became the sort of widespread idea that that it is now and what does T s he said was that what human beings are, these very peculiar creatures and if you gave us Utopia, so that we had nothing to do but eat cake and busy yourself with the continuation of the species? That was? That was his line, that the first thing do a smash it all to bits just so that something unexpected and troublesome would happen because were built for adventure and not for peace and happy
well were designed to overcome the natural world. The natural world is filled with that natural world is filled with things trying to eat things. This is just everywhere. You look it's all you observe, observe, predators and prey. A an animals eating vegetables and that's it, and I think that this concept of overcoming adversity, so it's so human it so a part of what we are that I want to bring it back to you. Because one of the things that I've been considering is that I've said this many times and I just had a conversation with my good friend, Steve Rinella, the other day where he brought it up independently. He said I think Jordan PETA soon is the most misunderstood or misinterpreted guy in the world. He's like people are always like- not just mister but but Miss, stating what you believe even misstating, what you say, this opposition to you, So this uh I mean like we were talking about this GQ interview, which I thought was a thought that one was far more intelligent than the in her approach was far better and farm
reasoned and well thought out the some of the attacks on you before, so they bring in the varsity level players of sampling. But I think this is important. I think this is part of what we would do for GE's. This message is that you are- and you were in this one of the things that Eric Weinstein and I it said about you- is you're, essentially the the Gracie of the intellectual dark web, have you So what that means is the early days of the UFC No One knew what the best martial art was and the idea was like there was all these martial arts that are running around in dependently, and they were all claiming that We had the best technique, Let's see what happens, an hoist Gracie was the one who represented jujitsu and went out there and beat all these people with superior technique and superior strategy.
American, yes, he's from Brazil, yeah! Ok, I know about him. Yeah. He launched this brazilian Jiu in his family launched his brazilian Jujitsu empire that has since taken over the world of martial arts, but you are the one who's consistently engaging in these people. You're the one who's involved, these valley, too events where you're debating these people we're coming at you hostile with notes- and, I think is, is comfortable as those moments are like who is the woman That said, so what you're trying to say is that camels Newman gas her, I think her approach. I think she missed under estimated you. I think you underestimate you. I think she misinterpreted who you are and she thought that she could come at you with this. Is straw man, sort of article and a argument rather in frame your positions in a very uh. Flattering way, it just didn't work. No, it was like the early days of hoist. Gracie guys would come out
and flailing it again an arm bar and they tap out and go fuck. That's kind of what happened with you, but now this woman who, You had this conversation with when GQ she was much more skilled. Yes, you is it better or verbally yeah she's, her arguments made more sense. You seem more reasonable, more well read yeah. She able to think on your feet quicker, but still these are really important conversation right. But it was a funny day because I went to the hotel room in Baltimore you know when I went out of my way to do it and she was Hoz. Tell me the second. I walked into the room. Really yes, and that really kind of put, the off how how so well, she basically told me that we're going to have a war. You know what no not many words that, but just was a coat business tour and distaste
for me that was sort of radiating from her. So she had to. She was animus possessed from a union perspective. That's the right way of thinking about it. One of the ways of thinking about that is that she had a chip on her shoulder and relationship to me so she'd already formulated, who I was in her imagination and she, it was also may be a form of project should so like. I was the embodiment of all the things that she found distasteful and not she was so there was no. There was no. Willingness to consider on her part that I could be different than her preconceptions, conceptions of right, and so she was. She was hostile to me in the way that you would be if you were prejudiced against someone right from the beginning, and so by the time it was and comfortable in the room and by the time there is a photo shoot, and so, by the time the conversation started. I was more, impatient than I would normally be, because one of the things that I do
from journalists, and Cathy Newman was like this by the way and and sort some of the other people that gonna out have gone after me me at least I had the professionalism to be civil before The interview started. I don't because there's a certain amount of politeness. I would say that not that I'm old but that someone you're interviewing is owed if they come out of their way to go talk to It's just human decency, yeah, there's, no there's no real conflict right until you have this conflict. It's just hello, nice to meet Yes, thank you for coming to human beings, interacting with each other. Yes, yes, on well on relatively professional, well, even just professional writing, just professional grounds. It's like well we're both here to do job and I've agreed to come, but knows the there was Papa. Enmity in the air right to begin with- and you know what They actually thought at the end of that interview. I thought geez, you know, maybe I'm maybe I've done enough interviews, because I found
I was more impatient than I would have liked to have been now. Luckily, it doesn't seem to going overboard, because I've been watching the comments on that G Q interview and I think it's got about four and a half million views some ridiculous. Now, yeah views and people have said that I was more impatient and a little harsher than usual, which I think is true, and I thought god you know. Maybe I'm run out of patience which isn't good right and I don't want to run out of patience because then it will flavor the message that you're putting out definitely and people take it in the wrong way and they'll take it in with that bitterness. Yes, exactly well, you know what one of the things that I think is very important is that you don't become resentful. I can and well, and- and you know when, when I'm on this tour, for example like
there's no resentment for me because you think well, this is, you might think. Well, this is a lot of work and I've been running around like mad and and you know it, it takes a lot of organization, it's quite demanding and all of that- and that's all true- and I doubt that none of that is a complaint and I decided with Tammy. You write the beginning that well, first of all that this was going to be working order, vacation because we're not stupid. We know you can't have everything at the same time, if you have any sense, you're lucky. If you get some things that are good at once, you know. So we are very great to have that opportunity and that I was to continue to do this. As long as I was thrilled to be in front of the on and then when I meet people afterwards, not looking at the end of the line to see when the night ends. You know, because I want to be sure that everything little person that comes to meet me. I'm you know president. For absolutely 'cause. I am. I am actually quite taken aback and thrilled. I guess it is the right word. Grateful routes pattern
that there there it's like a quad man. Some of these people you know like I was in they're. Coming from all over the place. You know people fly in Australia into Europe. They've flown they've flown lots of Eastern Europeans came to England factor, making huge track, So these guys who came from like eight, they took him like twelve hours get through Russia to come to Finland to watch the talk there, you know and then not just a few people like that people are really going way, the hell out of their way. You know and and then they line up- and it's not that it's not inexpensive because these venues are expensive and and all of that and I'm well, I'm I'm do it and it's the same with the damn interviews, it's like I'm doing my as to not take any of this granted and not get annoyed about it in, and that goes for the conflict to it's like well, you know I've tried to have my agent
screen out. Maybe the more egregious interviews you know the ones that would just be nothing but combat, because there I find them quite stressful, though I wouldn't say I'm hiding from them, but you don't know to begin with, reviews going to go, and I could just say well, I'm done having interviews for a while, but Ike. I can't help, but see that the conflict is a necessary part of this, even though I don't find it pleasant, like people think they can accuse me of being a provocateur of enjoying the conflict six not true at all, I don't enjoy it at all. It usually takes me about three days to recover from a like, particularly contentious interview. You know, 'cause, I find I find conflict. Interpersonal conflict, quite stressful, yes, but
I thank the windows. Yes, and to pretend you don't see you you're either a sociopath or you're a liar. Yes, yes! Well, there are people seem to enjoy that kind of intellectual combat. You know that they do yeah and the political types are more like that, but but I think they still afterwards feel it and if they re the comments and people are against them, which is that is it carries? Well, you would think so I mean I don't even know how people deal with it, because I mean I'm being fortunate because, although you know, I've had a fair bit of negative press coverage, the comments in on Youtube in particular, which is where the bulk of them are- and I would say, among the general public- have been overwhelmingly Positive. I don't know what the hell it would be like to be in a world where that was reversed. Where I know the majority of people are against you I've, seen it I've seen it happen with guess that I've had on the show where I've met them afterwards. And you see a physical effect on them. You see them,
beaten down like Jesus Christ. Those comments are so me and my two can't read those yeah. I can't read those and you see how it's affecting them like they can't sleep, they really arent Fox with them. They'll stay up for nights. You know it's not good. It's it's you're, you're you're, taking in all of these opinions of hundreds of thousands of people that you don't even know we, if they're coming from a healthy place and and most of those opinions. They would not express it that way. If they were talking I'm going to get the same message across like I think you were ignorant to these facts. I think your bias, in your perceptions, even if they had a an opinion was unflattering. The way that are expressed to you they'd be considerate about you and your feelings as a human being and if they weren't, you wouldn't take into consideration? What they're saying because we have guys is an yeah right, but when you just see it in type, we just see print it. Just doesn't it just it it it could
be a smart person. It could be a psycho. It could be a fool. It could be anything well. It's also funny too, because the negative comments that are part of social media, seem to be just as potent as negative comments in real life. But the positive comments don't seem to be as positive as the positive comments in real life. Yes like I don't they don't seem as real, and I real because we're wired you know to be more sensitive to threaten to negative emotion because well, because were we can be hurt, what's also healthy to to not stroke your ego, too much of you just like concentrating only on the like, like if there's something distasteful, if you go to someone's page and they just re tweet all the positive things that people say to them. 'cause then I had this sort of. Sings site. Let people know that I say something really positive. Jordan he's gonna re tweet me: there are some people that they engage in this sort of commerce. You know, like you, say something positive day: every tweet you and yeah. It's it's a little. It's a little two stroke. He
I found the right people get really into that stroking, her own back, yeah yeah. Well, I guess and yeah I guess the danger, that is, that a possibility of of that ego inflation that yeah. I want to avoid right, 'cause, that's a bad idea, so it's very bad idea. You've done a wonderful job of avoiding those waters 'cause. This is a new this. The guy who's in his 50s? Who becomes name is out nowhere and doesn't just becomes fame, just just become famous, but becomes this culturally significant sort of lightning rod. That's why I view you and a lot of these talks you're doing a lot of these. These debates, like you're having with this woman at G, Q or some of your interviews what you're doing is you're expressing yourself in a brave but very controversial way, and a lot of people are paying attention this, but then you're backing it up with your research, backing it up with real science you're backing up with a tremendous amount of
three of of of the the human race and of religion and of of the the scientific studies at been done that show correlations between different types of behaviors human beings and all this is rich. It's Very it's very rewarding if you could take it all in, but when it goes against what people have their conceived notions or their own set of beliefs that they're bringing to to your conversations into your debate. Then it creates this hostile style, bad, all were. What you're saying is is is very contrary to the way they've been living a life for the the really sorry set down to be really saw that in Scandinavia, Scandinavia out. Well, I I was there. I went to Stockholm twice and also twice in Helsinki, twice and and and Copenhagen once in the last month- and I spent quite a bit of the Lord of
interviews and a lot of discussion about the so called gender paradox. Now it's a very interesting thing: 'cause, it's really put their tails in a knot in Scandinavia, and that makes sense because the Scandinavians are going to have to deal with this first, because they've gone the farthest down the road for making their society gender equal, but explain that to me yeah they don't make it will. I will ok so so imagine, first of all, there's two kinds of equality that you might pursue. One would be equality of opportunity, and so that would mean that arm. You know, there's there's a wide range of talent across people, regardless of their type, whatever that might be sex, gender, race, ethnicity, there's, there's talent, just everywhere, and it's kind of a truism, and I would say it's a truism of the west in the deepest sense that each the individuals within those groups should be put in a position where they, their talents, are
they're encouraged to manifest those talents, partly because that would be good for them, spiritually and psychologically, but also because that would be of obvious benefit to the community right I mean challenge rare, which people don't understand, there's lots of different kinds of talent, but it's, but in each domain it's rare and so it's to everyone's benefit, to exploit talented people to the maximum. Possible degree? So, even if you're just selfish, you want to push for equality of opportunity because the more talented There are out there, the more cool stuff you get to have, and hopefully the more diverse and interesting your life is so so you can pursue equality of opportunity policies and scandinavians- have done that, especially trying to down barriers for women in the workplace and by all accounts by all standard series. The scandinavian countries, in places like like, like the Netherlands, can two to a slightly lesser degree, have done a
going farther than any other countries in pursuit Those policies and and part of the consequence of that is that some of the differences between men and women have been Tom minimized, so obviously there's far more women in the workplace, and there were forty years ago and made many occupations there's actually dominance. By I mean there's dominance in the universities. There's dominance in the healthcare fields, and so women have poured into the workplace and hypothetically there's problems with because it put a lot of stress on family structure, but hypothetically, that's for the best and because it gives me a broader range of choices, and it gives everyone access to more talent so and then also if you around the world you see that one of the best predictors of the probability of economic development in developing countries is their attitude, the attitude in those countries towards equal rights for women, and it looks causal the more positively the country is pretty
close to female writes the more likely they are to develop economically, and maybe that's because that indicates that they're open to new ideas or something like that or open to transformation so okay. So that's one kind of equality open up the playing field so that but he has a chance to compete and cooperate in length and land where they will, but then the other kind of well the is equality of outcome, so in not so often described as equity in today's language, and so the ultimate equity utopia would be take every job every can Mobile kind of job and then stratify that by every conceivable level of authority within every job, and then hello ensure that every single category of person is represent, in precise proportion to their to their prevalence in the population, so every job should be fifth percent women and fifty percent man and say thirteen percent non western ethnic minority and whatever that happens to me and then you break that down and so and uh
why is there is evidence of systemic prejudice? Ok, now, first need to say about. That is that's impossible and the reason it's impossible is because- there's no limit to the number of ways that you can categorize people into groups. So you know you you know about sex and ethnicity and race, maybe those are the obvious ones, but now you have gender and then you have ethnicity, and you know, and then there's activists and intelligence and temperament and at a height and age and where and when socio economic background, and I mean let's say: there's twenty, but there's a lot more than that. There's no no possible way that you could ever Ray latest society so tightly that every single one of those groups was equally
presented in every single one of those occupations at every single level of the hierarchy. That is really want to turn on the significant once what all men and women and race well yeah but who's to say those are the significant ones. That's the other thing I'd it isn't, even obviously, if they are because I would say that, like a more significant one is cognitive ability, because that's a boy way bigger, pretty drive long term life success than sex or race. So I don't even that we've necessarily identified the canonical groups. We've just decided the gender and race are, though maybe they're the most obvious right, but is in their problem. Is that people don't do that? What what they don't do? Is they don't take in it in terms of cognitive ability? They don't get on a team. They don't get on like there's people that are sexist yeah, but there's it's very rare that someone is elitist in terms of their cognitive ability well hard. Hey Joe. I mean, I think, one of the reasons the oceans, elitist prejudiced, is better I don't know what I mean if you could be right, but look. I think one of the reasons that like if you hear some
I think that's kind of actually makes sense now that I'm thinking about, of course, it's well there's one thing: that's quite peculiar about the United States in that regard is like most working class. People, let's say are, far more irritated with the intellectual elite than they are with the wealthy elite, and that's because they think they could become wealthy and they could, but they don't think they could become part of the actually elite and it isn't obvious to me that the intellectual elite, so those would be the liberal, left, leaning types that dominate the media and academia are particularly positive in in their attitudes towards the typical working class person. I think they're, prejudiced and elitist. I do believe If that's the case- and I think they're also, what would you call it patronizing, and I think that the typical working class person say who voted for Trump is very, very sensitive to that, and so there much
more concerned with the one percent who are the cognitive elite than they are the one percent who are the economic elite, because at least they I think that's a game they could play so anyways, but it's not also because there's caricatures right of the one percent of the economic elite. You just think of people that are, his lofty positions that are in control the financial institutions, but the one percent of the intellectually. You think in terms of like some of the more preposterous things you hearing out of universities now and safe spaces and got together with that. There's that two things that there's no there's no, appreciation on the part of the intellectual elite, for the path of rational of rationalism. I mean there's, there's nothing stupider than a smart person who went wrong, you know like you, contango on I've seen this in my clients. Frequently like if I have a particularly smart client who's, particularly disordered in their personality that that's just that's often just that's so difficult. It's almost automatic
well, because there is ample my when yet yeah yeah hi. What is your approach to handling someone whose leg was super intelligent but yet completely their life is in disarray. Well. You know. I usually I usually take a very practical approach like you know, we try to identify 'cause I I start always in my therapy practice always start with behavioral principles like okay. Well, let's see if we can identify a few areas, you know through negotiation that are really causing you grief and misery. You know like what's what's wrong with you as far as you're concerned, and so that often takes a lot of discussion, and then we might try to figure out what's causing that and that's often very difficult to figure because it might be might be, might be something physical. You know you might be sick in some way. 'cause pression is lots of. Depression is autoimmune related and things. It can be a side effect of all sorts of physiological disorders or eating properly sleeping, badly or or exercising enough to to kind of keep yourself regulated, so try to figure out what
sing it, and then you try to sketch out some possible solution that we could both test and then with the with the with the more intelligent ones. You know then they can come up with all sorts of reasons why none of this is going to work or one thousand. Reasons why it yeah well usually a thousand reasons why none of this is going to work and with people like that, sometimes it's useful to turn to their dreams if, if they dream- because the things that's cool about dreams is that even though they're hard to interpret they never lie, and so Sometimes you can take someone who's hyper, rational and they have a dream and they'll tell you the dream, and then you can work through an interpretation which is a tricky business and the dream will tell them something and there's just no denying it. It's like. Well, it's a statement from nature. So what are you going to? Do you going to pretend that that's not the case and also so that's often extremely useful so so? Ok, so well back to the equality issue, issues. Ok, so here's what's happened so psycho.
Or just have- and this is what's putting a tail not in the tail of the Scandinavians psychologists have come too pretty decent agreement about standard personality March right, so there's extroversion, neuroticism, agreeableness, openness and conscientiousness and he looked fairly stable, cross culturally, and that was all done by asking thousands of people hundreds and hundreds of questions and then grouping them statistically. So it was a theoretical, basically compete card took computational power and statistics to to find out that these are how traits group so arm in extroverted. People are sociable and happy, and neurotic people experience a fair bit of negative emotion. So that's a positive and negative emotion dimensions. Agreeable people are maternal and disagreeable. People are compelled and there's a fair bit of male female difference there. Conscientious people are dutiful and industrious and orderly and the open people are creative. And so those are your basic five dimensions. Ok, that's been established in everyone more or less agrees on it now, maybe
seven dimensions and we've got a questionnaire that that breaks the five down into and that's called understand myself, but basically there's good, there's, good consensus, consent, consensus on the five okay- now, as soon as you have the five basic traits, you can ask some questions like well: do men and women differ, and so what you do is you just give the questionnaire either fill it out yourself or have other people fill it out on your behalf. So and it could be, a teacher could be a parent, you know and and then that's all be done, and what you find is there are systematic differences between men and women. The biggest differences are that way: experience more negative emotion and that and are more agreeable than men so and, it's borne out by the psychiatric evidence, because higher levels of negative emotion, are manifested in depression and anxiety. And women are diagnosed with higher levels of the. Shin anxiety all around the world and with agreeableness
it's also borne out by the clinical literature in some sense, the medical, literature, socio medical literature because disagree people people are more likely to be incarcerated, 'cause, it's the best predictor of being incarcerated, even though it's not a very good predictor. And men are incarcerated about a ten to one rate compared to women and more likely to be anti social and conduct disorder, so the person differences are mirrored in the Socio medical literature. Ok, so so now, so there are differences, but then there's a question. Are those differences points of socialization or their biological. And the answer to that is tricky, because how much something is social and how much it is. Biological actually depends on the social circumstances. So what Here's an example: if we have a society where no one has enough to eat and people are starving. Then there
a huge cultural effect on people's intelligence. Let's say that's mediated by economic factors, even though it's got a biological origin right, the starvation, so the relationship between biology and cultures actually partly Culturale, so it makes it complicated. But in any case here's how the scientists decided to address this. They thought well. Why don't we rank order countries by how so egalitarian their social policies are which you can do with a fair degree of reliability. You know you put the countries where women are second class citizen is at the bottom and you put the scandinavian countries at the top. You can get good reliability across raiders for how you would rate those countries and then look at the magnitude of the differences between men and women, by the egalitarian social policies, and so then you'll find out and here's the hypothesis. If the difference between men and women are primary prime
social, then cultures become more egalitarian, men and women will become more alike. That's not what happened. The opposite happened, the the more egalitarian this society and it turns out the richer the society, because that's also being discovered now, the more different men and women become, and so the differences are not huge. So with agreeableness, for example, if you took the average man, if you took a typical man and a typical woman out of the population just randomly and you had to bet that the woman was more aggressive than the man you'd be wrong. Sixty percent of the time so there's quite a bit of overlap. Right, 'cause you'd be right. Forty percent of the time But the problem is: is that a lot of selection takes place at the extremes? Maybe really concerned about disagreeable people with become violent and may
it's only the one in fifty most disagreeable person whose violent and they're all men, so you can have quite a bit of similarity at at the average level and big differences at the extremes, and the extremes is where people do things like, like employment selection, so the biggest difference that's been discovered between men and women and this is the one that gets biggest in the scandinavian Countries- interest men more interested in things. And women are more interested in people and it's a big difference. It's one full standard, deviation, So what that means is that If you were a man, you would have to more interested in people than eighty five percent of men to be as interested in people as the 50th percentile, woman and you'd have to be more interested in things than eighty five percent of women to be as interested in things as the typical man. And what do you? How do you define things?
judge, it's okay gal gadgets, sketch no, no one! No one animate things: cars car, it yeah, yeah tools! Yeah! You know technology right right, right, damn fear to give the other thing that's happened. Is that the more you in this society. The fewer women go into the stem fields, the fewer that's interesting, yeah, okay. So so now this on Ravel's in a big way, it's like David! This is a hugely are relevant, issue politically, because it means that you cannot have equality of all unity and equality of outcome. At the same time, it's not possible. Because, as you make your society more egalitarian and you open up the opportunity for equality of outcome, you increase how different men and women are are and that changes occupational choice. So if men
I'm more interested in things which they are by a substantial margin, then way more of them are going to be engineers, wouldn't that possibly support this idea, that in model of of of a quality, Would allow people to be themselves more, this is almost what you're saying well good because they're. So that is the optimistic view. Point like alarmist! Well, look good so funny, because the swedish Foreign Minister told me to go crawl. Click climb back under the rock today came out from under when I was, Scandinavia, because I was describing this this this this science. Read that, but I'm not exactly sure why. Well she regards me as misogynist, because I think that there are because I think, because I've been putting forward the dense, that there are genuine differences between men and women, but she should be held accountable for that because I said a flippant thing to say:
thank you, you you, you should have, especially in a position of power like she's an you should have a very specific argument, saying like that, for a leader to have such a a base thing to say such a crew, dumb thing to say, crawl back under the rock that you can Well, I thought she was what is the joke about lobsters, but I don't think she was the rock lobsters going to rocks. I guess they do the growing cracks yeah. I know your lobsters have better rock. That was not a very interesting thing. The GQ hitting where the woman was challenging. You on your neurobiology No, yes, yes, yes, well, hardly hardly any, hardly any psychologists under and that serotonin is associated with hierarchies. It's like a truism. It's been known for thirty years, so we we have to get back to it. But I'm I'm again I'm very curious about this, because this I idea of enforced equality ensuring that there is such a high emphasis played are placed on a quality quality that you have. The
equal amount of men the equal amount of women in the opportunities are absolutely available as much to women as they are men. This is enforced you this it's an environment where there's less resistance. Now the environment, where there's less resistance, perhaps women don't feel as compelled to say I'll show you There is what seems to happen. This is the well here's a Nikki look, here's an example. So, There are fewer women mathematicians in the higher echelons, okay, but here's something interesting about mathematical ability. First of all, it's very rare. So that's the first thing to keep in mind now. It looks like if you look in junior high that give mathematically gifted menan, males and females are approximately it's common. Now, there's a little bit of debate about that, because there is some since that maybe at the very upper extremes, there's a male advantage just like there's a male disadvantage at the low end, 'cause the mail distribution for intelligence might be flattered and so
the greater merit male variability hypothesis there's been papers, putting that for that have been retracted as a consequence of pressure from politically correct people even though greater merit mail. Very ability is actually quite common in the animal kingdom for a variety of reasons. Men are more expendable. That males are more expendable in some ways or you could say that males are more likely to produce to pursue high risk, hi return strategies you can did either way, and it's certainly possible, in any case the men, mails in junior high, who happened to be mathematically gifted are less likely to also be verbally gifted, whereas that doesn't seem to be the as for the females, and so if a male math nerd, then math is a pretty logical pathway for you, because you don't have as many other options, whereas if you're female math nerd, you have other options because you're less likely you're more likely to also be verbally gifted, and so that's enough to
at least in principle account for some of the reason why there are fewer women mathematicians than men mathematicians. They have other options, they have other options and there's lots of complex, there's lots of complex reasons like this, and so we have this reflexive. And this is very much the case 'cause. This is like the core idea among the thing, neo marxist types is that if there's differences in outcome, that's that's proof of prejudice and that support for the idea of the patriarchal tyranny and that's like the core axiom of the radical left is the patriarchal tyranny. As far as I'm concerned, that's, that's God for them. The patriarchal tyranny it's like. Well, if it and so did. Many of these differences in outcome between men and women aren't a consequence of the patriarchal Tierney, in fact even get bigger. When you reduce the tyrannical aspect of the patriarch and even the patriarchal aspect to it, then it it makes that theory not only wrong but episode of the truth.
Which is the worst kind of wrong, and so you know if men are more likely to pursue careers in the stem fields, which seems to be the case under conditions of optimal freedom for men and women. Then that's going to drive Income disparities, because the stem fields pay more and they pay more, partly because they're scalable, it's really hard to scale care for people. You know like if you work- day daycare going to care for three infants in order to care for fifty, because you can't it's not scalable, but if you're like a software designer, it's infinitely scalable and so there's a much wider range of possible of possibility for generating much larger, much larger, income pools and much larger pools of wealth. You know in men are also more likely to work longer hours, and if you work ten, that longer hours you make forty percent more money. There's a nonlinear return on. That's a good thing for everybody, who's listening to know. If you have a job you I'll be the guy or the woman who's working that extra ten percent
because the return on that is nonlinear. So that's a really useful thing to know more likely to work outside. They are more likely to work in dangerous business is they're more likely to run full time businesses, rather than part time, businesses and they're more likely, move in pursuit of their career goals and not call contributes to differences in and and in in uber drivers there, they make seven percent more money. 'cause they drive faster, so and so anyway. This is not good though well. Nobody is a high risk for high risk. High return issue right commits a pattern: mail, the common, more risk, there's more risk in it. So there's more return as long as you don't get hurt and I think that's a pretty common male pattern is there's more risk. There's more return as long as you don't get. Her problem seems to be when discussing these things in any way romanticizing or glorifying male behavior or
putting any emphasis whatsoever on there being a positive aspect to a lot of things that we think of as being negative, like aggression ambition or yeah or competition. Yeah yeah, well. The competition amongst men is fine. Competition with men against women is often thought of as cruel yeah. Well that the yes well and and and there's a certain amount of reason for that, as well, because obviously, physical competition, it it's easy for that to border on cruel why we're we're talking before the so that, instead of calling people, men and women when referring to like 'cause there's this very disturbing, in my opinion, trend of transgender women entering into these competitions now with women who are biologically female, you know and dominating them yeah, and that instead of calling people men, women, let's dispense with yeah, you could be a general yeah, yeah yeah. You can be a man or woman. That's your choice and you can change it whenever you want. So your men
wonder woman them and that's your choice, but We have a new rule, which is that if you have an x y, so you're an axe, white person or neck six person. Then, if you're an x x purse x Y person, you don't get to engage in physical, combat with an Ex white. Person, yes, men or one x expert, doesn't matter yeah? How would that be lyrics, why you can't engage in physical, combat with XX ray techs wise, cannot hit x axis how's that and maybe they can't run in can't running contests against them, and maybe they can play tennis against them now with him, and maybe that's just reasonable there is reason. Yes, it is certainly it is reasonable, but if do you you talk about that, especially someone like you yeah, I was. You were against this bill that was going to in for These pronouns in the complete compelling the use of these pronouns that you were thought to be a Trans phobic person. I am because you feel like there. Maybe should be some rational discussion about the physical
limitations of certain body structures. 'cause, that's what it is. If you're talking about my field of business, think about combat smooth right. I've been involved in combat sports, my whole life, and there is a difference and it's not to say that females aren't, aren't competent, I mean I had Miriam Nakamoto on yesterday, she's a friend of mine, which is an eight time world Moitie champion she's a monster, but she doesn't against men and she shouldn't fight against men, although she's probably could beat a bunch of 'em right, it's not. She should have to we start off. Women are tough. Woman can beat a variety of men. Well, I really tough man can beat all women yes right. So that's the problem, that's the reality. Yes, that is definitely reality. You know and people don't like, here these things and they don't they they they? They want to pretend that you can even out the playing field with hormones. No, you can even add a little there's certain things like I've always said you you, if you dare, Brock, Lesnar, a sex change and put him in a dress he's going to run through every woman. That's ever
lived in the history of women, there's not, a single woman is going to be able to deal with that bone structure and that mind that that guy has had with testosterone pumping through it for thirty nine years. So just justicar preposterous, that people have to have the discussion, the so absolutely ridiculous. The one thing that I was attacked more than anything in. My entire life is saying that I think it's ridiculous to have a trans woman compete against women in mixed martial arts. I was like you want to have to do it and Yes, you want to have to do it in something, that's non physical sure you want them to be a woman. Yes, ok, you want it to be recognized as a woman, you sure, but as soon as your compelling people, here's one that's going up lately. If you don't want to date, a trans, well and then you are some sort of a big it, but if you're a man even if you want family, you know remember in in brave new world in Huxley's book it,
was considered immoral to reject anyone sexual advances because it was prejudicial. Oh yeah, and the thing is. It is prejudicial. That's the thing now, but this is so That makes the question even more interesting, because the the question is at what point do you have the right to your prejudices and what of the things that we seem to cling to come- and I would say rightly, is that we're allowed to be prejudice when it comes to who we interact with sexually and then an who we choose his friends and that's right. That's the right association and You know you said only up to a certain point. Well, that's! This is because this, this new logic is kind of leaking in town. Sexual preference now like you have a problem with someone being overweight, yeah and you're a sizeist or something yeah like. What is that? Well, the thing is is that you can't have preferences without having prejudices course right. So that's a big
it's a big issue. So what does that mean? You don't get to have any preferences? How is that going to work out in terms of like what you like to eat or what kind of films you enjoy? What kind of books you read you're allowed to have these preferences, but it comes to what you're sexually attracted to there's new emphasis. Now draw that line and say like, but it's preposterous people that are pushing this and I've almost everybody is pushing back find it interesting when there is a logical, it's a logical conclusion to all these other things that have been happening, because that is where the rubber hits the road. It's like. You know when, when I when I well, I I've seen this in in debates that I've had publicly where people you know talk about prejudice, and I've pointed out to them that they have prejudicial attitudes with regards to their sexual preferences, because they don't just sleep with anyone who asks them right. So it's like what
how is that not a prejudice? Well, of course, it's a prejudice. Well, then, the question is under what circumstances are prejudice is justifiable and that's a conversation we don't like to have, because we believe that there are no circumstances whatsoever under which prejudices are are acceptable. There's a big difference between prejudices and discrimination. I think those to get conflated. Yes, there is a big difference between prejudice and discrimination. And also, hopefully, discrimination has to do with setting your standards in relationship to the task at hand, yeah right that that's what you'd hope for that. That's the appropriate for right, discreet, of discrimination rights, that's like intelligence, sure. Everything is everything, isn't the same about everything all the time. So you discriminate, you rank order things and you need to rank order them to pursue things that are valuable. This is one of the problems with the people who are so anti hierarchy like the like the radical, leftists well shouldn't be hierarchies, it's like okay, then, why do so?
What was that that argument is so foolhardy that it's it's difficult to take seriously, but you do have to engage in it. I think when you engage in it, it's really fascinating to watch because there's it's like, you're playing a game of chess with someone only has a couple of pieces. They have. Strong move that they do, but you've got all these other pieces and you're like well. Let's just keep this game going until this comes as a logical conclusion, which is check mate. This will go. There's high. There all throughout nature. It doesn't mean people should suppress, people doesn't mean people shouldn't have rights, it doesn't mean people should enforce themselves or force themselves on other folks, as somebody mean, it also doesn't mean that the hierarchies, especially if they're human hierarchies, good well or or or that there only that's right. Not that they're good necessarily or that they predicated on power like one of the most, pathological elements of the postmodern types, especially people like food is there and
distance, that all hierarchical structures are predicated on power and that there's nothing other than power and that's completely preposterous mean. I use examples of plumbers in my lectures more recently, 'cause, it's rather comical, it's like well! On what basis do you hire a plumber? So imagine that there's a hierarchy of plumbers, ranging from very successful to very unsuccessful. Okay- and you say well what makes successful. Well, the power our theory would would imply Is there a roving bands of mafiosi, old plumbers who like come pounding on your door at three in the morning and tell you that if you don't get their particular policy to fix your pipes, Lee king or not that they're going to come and burn down your house. Of course, that's completely completely absurd. When you go to hire someone like a plumber while first thing you want to know is reputation? Can they actually fix a pipe because you actually want your pipe fixed and then you want to know well, do they deal with you fairly and part of? What's tangled,
and that in all likelihood is, do they deal with their employees fairly because that's going to make their business function properly, and so the hierarchy of plumbers, which is part of the patriarchal tyranny, is almost entirely predicated on competence, as almost every the enterprise in the west is like that, because I keep wondering well where the hell is this patriarchal tyranny, like is it Sarge therapists is it? Nurses, like most nurses, female, if you get females organized into a hierarchy which you do in nursing, is that all of a sudden? Is that part of the patriarchal tyranny or is it the acted all those people are women. Does that mean it's no longer but still hierarchy? Is it normal, tyranny. Is it no longer circle like. Is it patriarchal only because there's men in it or is it patriarchal, because it's a hierarchy all of this stuff is so incoherent that it just all you have to do, is think about it and that hasn't been done to any great green it just dissolves in your hand, yes, that's what I'm saying is that if you rent
into a job straight out of college. You leave university and now you're entering into you know the your first year in the workplace. It's it's just a natural fact of life. There's going to be people that are further ahead in this race than you, because you're better at what they do, some other things more experience, there's more information. Some of them are more crooked and snitch or two possible as well, because the, but it's the it's the agreeing Everyone agreeing that this is a game yeah. This is some sort of a competition. Yes and you're. Gonna have hierarchies in competitions. You can yes, people who win. You can have people who do better. Yes, no matter what that start, sort of that's the fundamental issue as soon as you wish. We could look at it this way as soon as you. Let's assume people have problems, everybody can free? Not, then we could assume that people would like solutions to those problems, so we could agree on that. Then we could. Well, then, if you implement a solution socially so with other people, then you're going to cooperate and compete in relationship to the solution and that's instant.
To produce a hierarchy because, no matter what the problem is, some people are going to be better at solving it than others and then You have any sense. You put the people who are good at solving it at the forefront because then they solve it, faster, cheaper and better and then everybody benefits. Can you get a hierarchy right? The people who solve those problems that financial incentive to solve those problems, and they do and they do that because the rest of us are greedy and desperate. It's like we want the people. We're good at solving the problems to keep solving and so what we're trying to do is to reward them so that they'll keep doing it even if it's difficult to give them some status extraordinary if necessary. Yes, when you look at the people that are the head of giant industry, the ceos of super successful companies they're the ones with the giant yachts in the big houses, and this is the incentive for people to try to get to that position and the idea that there's no incentive and then there should be no incentive, but yet you're still going to have all this innovation is ridiculous. It's not how it works. It's not human beings work. If human
these are going to work really hard. There has to be some sort of reward and it can't be an equal yes and then then, what you could say like so okay to the right. That would be, roughly speaking, a conservative position and then you can take a left wing. And it's reasonable- and you can say yes, there are hierarchies, but I have to stay awake because they can degenerate into power hungry so that it's no longer competence, its political machinations and game playing and tear that that produce the positional initial differentiation, so we gotta stay awake to that, and so we got. Criticize the hierarchies, not the fact of hierarchy, but the structure hierarchy. So they stay honest. And then we also have to be careful, because when you do set up a hierarchy, then a lot of people collect up the bar. That's the necessary consequence of a few people collecting at the top, and so then you have to be concerned about those people at the bottom and so there's a variety of things
that you would do to express that concern is one you might want to have a lot of hierarchies, so the people have different. Talents could play different games and a complex society is pretty good at that but you're still going to have people who stack up at the bottom of all hierarchies right, there's going to be people who are sick, mentally and physically, and maybe people word cognitively, impaired or you know, or over, experience some kind of catastrophe in their life and then you set up your system so that those people don't suffer unduly part because that's bad, part, because that destabilizes your whole society, and so you could say That's the left place is to speak for the speak on behalf of the unjustly dispossessed, and the rights position is to stabilize and maintain functional hierarchies and encourage competition, encourage competition, that's of benefit to the whole and enter the individuals within the competition, and then the political dialogue is a continual discussion between
after the right saying. Well, you know rise higher keys, get little too steep and little to reject them and and and well and that's for me- that's also the the the the fundamental reason for the necessity of free speech, because this the the way to discuss this. It is the only it's the only way of working it out and it is the case you are going to produce hierarchies if you're going to pursue things of value socially going to produce hierarchies and their necessary and there's also, I have a giant issue with the concept that these things are mutually exclusive, that you can't have competition. Anne also have a good social environment. I think this particular foster, is ideal, mean one of the things I really like about the psychologist, Sean Piaget who, I would say the world's foremost expert on games is that he did a very careful analysis of say, competitive games, okay, so let's take a hockey or soccer doesn't matter same example. Can you say well because people now they they have kids, play these games and don't keep score, which of course the kids keeps
because they're not stupid, like the adults, but you know what we can have it be competitive. Okay, so, let's take it apart, it's like what is hockey a competitive game or a cooperative game. Okay! Well, so, first of all, everyone's trying to do the same thing: that's corporate! If it's not like half the people are playing chess in another. You know a third of the broader basketball and to them were boxing and, Well, sometimes they do in hockey boxing in the corner, but everyone's trying to do the same thing. That's cooperative, okay. Everyone plays their position that squad, They all follow the same rules, that's cooperative right. So so there's competition but it's nested inside the fundamental structure of corporation and the corporation is the court. Asian is the basis of the game itself. Let's all, arbitrarily agree that it's important to put this black disc in the net with how to get your aim right and then, let's co, within our teams to do that.
Going to pass and we're going to past each other and we're also going to work so that each of us is a good player, but so that we all work for the betterment of our team, because we want to win games across multiple games, so that's also cooperative and then you want to interact with your your enemies? Let's say the other team in a way, that's indicative of good sportsmanship. So that the entire league can floor. Shin to think of that is competitive is absolutely it's so awesome our there's, no other way of describing it than stupid. That's what it is. It's I It's a it's an ignorant unit, dimensional analysis. It's put forward by someone who's reflexively, opposed to anything that smacks of competition and who isn't thinking it through at all today are denying the benefits of competition in the fact they reap. Those very benefits
competition by enjoying the products that are created by these corporations. Yes, well, it's very hypocritical and well. Well, that's for sure. That's called the performance of contradiction. It's like well I'd like to I like to complain about left wing issues on my Iphone right, exactly no, it's like well yeah, fair enough, but you know you still have a little gratitude for the fact that you've got your Iphone to complain about and those those organisations so corporations are unbelievably competitive, unbelief fall apart almost instantly when that competition start start stops being an issue 'cause, then there's no constraint on the behavior of the behavior of the system. So, yes, and you know that the issue with men, I think with Young men- and this is one of the things I've been trying to address- is that if your fundamental presupposition is that our culture is a patriarchal tyranny, which is an appalling opposition along with the idea that the best way of looking at history is that it was the oppression, the continual oppression of women by men, which is also
thing that I regard as valid absolutely reprehensible doctrine. Then, okay, so it's a charcoal tyranny, but but in their defense that did exist. There has been continual oppression of women. It's just not the only thing. That's happened send women that have been revered. There's been women that have been celebrated. There's been women that have publish great things, but there's been a lot of oppression, so they concentrate Prime, Early on that oppression and that's the main point of study and that's the thing they want to talk about all the time. They kind of have a point in the fact that, if you're looking at all the events that have ever taken place, there's a pick a number of them that have been women being oppressed. Yes, that's a real thing. I don't know if there's more women have been oppressed than men have been oppressive good point, so I would say that the entire history of you look at it. This way is that we oppress ourselves personally, with our own malevolence and stupidity? and then we're all oppressed by the kind of the crushing hand of the social world, that molds us in one way and not in another and then of course,
Nature is doing her best all the time to give birth to us, but also to kill us and take us out so there's this endless There's this endless. What would you call it your ability that characterizes our existence psychologically and socially and naturally I would say one hundred and fifty years ago that was even more intense than it was now. You know, because the typical person in the west lived on less than a dollar a day before one thousand eight hundred and ninety five, and so the way. I think that we should view the his the world is that men and women labored under virtually impossible conditions for the entire bulk of human evolution, and they did their best to cooperate. I want to compete but to cooperate so that they had some more to come, some possibility of a modicum of security and satisfaction and if that's the right framework and then within that, of course, there's power games that are played by people who are.
Corrupt yeah within that is horrible events. Of course those have place, but there's a massive amount of hypocritical thinking. When you are rising the actions of so many people and talking about how many people, complicit in these things, while for carrying around a phone that's made by someone who gets a dollar a day. I was talking to a journalist in Slovenia who is a lefty and not a very sophisticated one, and she was talking about the one percent and I said well, do you know that if you make more than thirty two thousand dollars a year that you're part of the one percent she said well, what do you mean? I said? Well, that's the worldwide statistic. It's like so you're part of the one percent, while she didn't first of all, she said. Well, I don't believe that statistic and I thought well, that's why you could look it up yourself, but what was so interesting was that for her, that characterization the one percent victimizers, was only relevant within the confines of her national border. Right right,
as I said well, no, it's all you have to do is expand that out a little bit and you're the problem and not the solution. Then that was that was completely untenable for her she couldn't include herself in the population of victimizers, even though you know she lives in uh, stern country and she's, a well paid journalist and she's lives, a very privileged life, so to speak by his colon cancer to someone living in the Congo or soccer, or anybody live anywhere in the entire history of the and up until it yeah for sure, if you make thirty four thousand dollars today, you absolutely in the at one percent of everybody, who's ever lived ever well, of course, of course. Yes, yes, definitely especially given what you can buy with it. The only reason deny that is because it doesn't fit. What you've come into the argument with it? Doesn't it doesn't fit your pre, the pre? Bose notion that you have, though, the idea that your it's so rigid. This idea,
you are not one of the ones. That's that's! That's! Right, even though you're carrying that Iphone with that laptop and all these different things that you enjoy that created by these corporations that you, you support them, initially, but yet they are the ones that are destroying this earth. These are the one. Is that your rallying against these are ones that you hate against yeah. Well, the victim, Victimizer Narative only works if you assume that you're a victim right and as soon as you assume that you're a victimizer well, then it's not so much fun. One of the things I wrote, the four word for the new version of and it's in school. I got capella go the abridged version, it came out November first and I was trying to figure out why the Russian Revolution went wrong so rapidly because it went wrong right from the beginning and they solution it's in quotes. Gardening, I think his name was Walter Latsis. If I remember correctly, got the lattices part right anyways and he said when you,
terror, getting a member of the bourgeoisie to decide whether they you know or whether they constitute an enemy of the state. You don't give any credibility to such no such niceties as individual guilt or innocence. All you care about is their group and their background and their economic status, and, if they're in the wrong group was he then that's it. That's the end of them and sold and it's in comments not just the end of them, but the end of their children and their grandchildren as well and lots. This was eventually executed by Stalin. Somebody wrote me and just told me that after I wrote the foreword, but one of the things I figured out was this, and this is really worth thinking about. Man so the intersectional claim is that you know each person has more than one group identity. So, fundamentally, if you're going to calculate their victim status, then you have to calculate it across all the different groups that they might be victims in, and so
you know maybe a who knows a native American is one form of victim in this line of thinking, but a native american victim is what female is is like twice the victim or. However, you would calculate that mathematically. It's like okay, and maybe you have. Maybe you can be put into six different groups. We already talked about that a little bit, but here's the bloody rob. If I put you in six groups in one of those groups, your victimizer, you can bloody well bet on it and then here's the next rule, if you're a victimizer among any possible dimension of analysis, then it's the Goolag. For you
and so that's the fundamental danger of that group. Identity. Victimizer victim narrative is that you fragment your identity in multiple dimensions, you'll find out that you're a victimizer and then everyone, then everyone's a criminal and then everyone's guilty. That's exactly what happened in Russia and then you think well wait a minute. There are a bunch of people who are really compassionate about the poor so like, let's say just for the sake of argument that at the beginning of the russian Revolution, that twenty percent of the communists were really concerned about, the poor maybe say fifty percent just to be arbitrary about it, the other fifty percent were jealous and resentful about anyone who anything more than they did all right. Now that you put those two groups head to head in a battle for for years and see who standing at the end if you are one of those utopians who actually cares for the dispossessed, when the pollution. Comes you can bloody well be sure that your head is going to be first on the chopping block, because the people who are motor I hate are going to be a lot more.
This in their attempts to eradicate then you're going to be. What would you call it effective in your in your attempts to save that whole game that whole identity, politics, game? That is dangerous beyond belief, and it's it's predicated fundamentally on resentment and and the desire to devolve people back into a tribal antagonism. I think it's so important that you talk about it this way, and I think it's really interesting. When I see the resistance, do you talking about it this way and how many people or unwilling to look at it as this multi level, historical sort of record, look and see how this played out, and you can look and see what's not right. Now, with these control games, the playing socially and that they are enforcing certain types of behavior in certain ways of thinking and then trying to rain in earnings and and a against capitalism and support communism and socialism and so in this sort of weird trendy way, without understanding the full scope of the historical implications. When it's been tried in the past
It's not as simple as like. You know, but you know, got this hand. Ryan thing doing you looking at this world devs you know capitalism against socialism. It's good people who care about folks versus people who are ruthless. It's not that the that is even how capitalism doesn't even work like that, you know that managers are more stressed by the people they manage than the people they manage your stress by their managers. I mean think about it. Right, so we have to think about that for a minute. It's like you're an employee and you have a manager The manager is a bit of a jerk, let's say, but there's twenty of you right. So there's like you kind of 120th oppressed by the manager, but now you're the manager and you're, managing twenty people and you're responsible for them and we're assuming that you're, not a psychopath and you're, probably not because you probably wouldn't be able to get to be a manager if you recycle psychopath, because cycle generally, aren't very successful and they have to keep moving as people figure out who they are. So the idea that, like psychopathic power, is a good route to power
functioning organization, the stupid theory there are organisations that are pathological enough, so that works, but they don't last very long either so you're the manager and you decent human being? Can you got twenty people who are dependent on you and at least two of those people are real trouble like they're serious trouble and there are there? Are there your concern all the hi, and so you see this is an as people move up the corporate hierarchies think well, they have more and more power, it's like yeah, but you did not read. They have more more responsibility and there be Savior is actually monitored with increasing severity. It's like you're quite constrained in most high level. Positions of authority in complex organizations like you, have to behave pretty damn carefully or you're, going to get yourself in trouble. Very, very quickly will start so today. I think that
isn't necessarily the case a decade ago or two decades ago. It was largely the case. Yes was the case today, it's far easier to get called out on things, but he, but even so, like you know, even even twenty years ago like if you didn't treat your customers properly, we know in and carefully reciprocally in long term relationships you're going to be a failure now- and you know in in in in any corporation that that produces anything of any value I mean the production is one thing, so you have to be confident that the production you have to be in constant communication with your with your buyers and foster those relationships. Personally, because there's intense competition and if those personal relationships aren't of high quality. Then your business fails. And one of the things I really learned 'cause, I spend a lot of time with business. People as well as academics is that business. People do a tremendous amount of socialization compared to academics, academics, to judge each other's work, more or less on the basis of its scientific merit, and so they don't have to establish
personal relationships to the same degree, but business People are always wondering. Well, can I trust you? Can we enter into a reciprocal relationship? That's going to be of mutual benefit over the long run, and so they're testing hello, socially all the time and if you're not capable of zipper honestly over some decades say then you're going to screw things up in an absolutely horrible, It's one of the reasons why they like to use golf as a man. Yes exactly that's exactly right is two things: one you get to see how someone handles competition. I don't get to see if they cheat yeah, because people do cheat and golf it was in story a good friend of mine. His his dad was playing golf this man and his wife was there as well and the I've saw the dad moved the or us this man that he's playing golf with move the ball and she said not going to business with this man, not trust this man he's a cheater
cheated at golf and he thought it was not that big a deal. So it's just a game of golf. So you know this is a big deal turns out. The guy was a fucking criminal. Just took awhile to find out mean he wound up doing a lot of other things that how you do some things is often times how you do everything yeah. Well, that's why people are so I'm interested in games. Yes, you know because a person. Really us we'll games did. This is again why I'm such an admirer of Piaget, because he knew very well that game is a microcosm of reality. Yeah, that's why we, like being you have to have an explanation for why people like Games yeah. You know what I've been talking about this a lot. My lectures to is, you think? Well, you know any game like? Is it any competitive game soccer is a good example. It's basically a hunting game, hey because you're you're firing a projectile at a target; okay, so the two
it's. The gold in the projectiles, the ball, but it doesn't matter is it is so you have a you: have teams that are figuring out how to hunt properly then you think well done properly. You have to put the ball in the net as many times as you possibly can so, and so you organize yourself in a hierarchy to facilitate that. But then that's that's not the whole story, because you tell your kids. Doesn't matter whether you win or lose it matters, how you play the game and the kids all freaked out about that, because he doesn't know what you mean and he says. Well, what do you mean down? I'm trying opposed to try to win, and you say I don't know what I mean, but it's it's still true, but here's what you mean is that if you're in a league you're not trying to win this Soccer game, you're trying to win the soccer championship and to win the championship. You have to win a whole bunch of games and the rules to win a whole bunch of games. Aren't the same as the rules to win one game you know like you could go flat out:
is the Prima donna in Bend and bend the rules and cut corners and exhaust everyone and win the game and then lose the next three, because that's a stupid, medium to long term strategy or you could be like the superstar and hog the ball all the time and never give your teammates a chance to develop. But then you're injured in your team is out. So that's a stupid, stupid strategy to so you think well, what you have to do to win the championship is that you have to organize your team so that the best players lead, but that everybody gets developed and that you play the medium to long term game in a fairway in a fair and decent way. Ok, so you think well, that's how you win a championship. I talked to a coach awhile back he said one of the things he did to select athletes was to watch
what happened when they scored a goal and if they were celebrating on their own, you know it's sort of an egotistical way, then that wasn't such a good sign, but if they scored a goal or touchdown or whatever it was and their whole entire team came in and bought them and then like to give to them up on their shoulders, and they thought that guy is an athlete cuz. Not only can he put the Gola put the ball net, but he does it in a way that benefits the entire team and that's the person you want around for the long run. So then the goal isn't just to put the ball in the goal. The goal is to put the ball in the goal. The largest number of times, while simultaneously benefiting as many as your of your fellow players as you can, although I think a great strategy. I don't think that's necessarily the meaning of it doesn't matter if you win or lose it's how you play the game. I think what I don't think people think of it in terms of like a long term strategy for open ship leagues when they're saying it doesn't matter whether you win or lose it's how you play the game, meaning don't cheat,
here, do your best and learn right, but and for those who are in that's right, well, learn how to handle failure learn how to handle victory will also learn from the experience itself like. If you make a mistake and you you're trying your hardest, but you make an error because someone has a counter to that yeah, then you learn from that yeah! That's how you play the game right. We do play stupidly and you don't think, and you win just because you got lucky, that's not as good as intelligently and expanding your saddest and losing yes, because the other people are superior, and then you learn from the fact that they figured out a way to have solution install the problems that you present. Yes, ok, so so one of the things that you're pointing out is that, while you're playing you want to be expelled, in your range of skills so that you get that playing the next game. But then you think well even the soccer championship isn't the whole game right, because your life is a whole series of games of of of of championships of different types.
Is the championships will come if you continue to excel and get excellent? Yes, and also, if people invite you to play yes, so there's both of the but with those are the two things. So that's the goal right. The goal isn't to put the ball in the net. The goal is to get excellent and to be invited to play right and the mechanism is that you put the ball in the goal and not make sense, see that explain why people find competitive it's so unbelievably compelling because can be cynical about it and you can say well look. There's fifty thousand people there watching. You know somebody Keka, a spheroid object into a net who the hell cares like. But that's not the issue. What your You are in fact doing is you're going there to watch people develop expertise, and to learn to play reciprocally in a noble and ethical manner, and all of that sport, when it's done properly, is a direct physical incarnation of that ethic, and so
not surprising that that's why people get so excited when they see an athlete. Do something imagine the best thing that you can see. Sports event is someone who does something early in the Spirit of fair play and in a manner that's unbelievably excellent right. Wayne Gretzky was very good at that, because he was an excellent, excellent sportsman and also unbelievably skilled, and so people loved him and that's perfect because he was he was a player who played the game like it was more important to play it properly, then, to win, and he was on the top of his game. At the same time, and that's what you want to be light, didn't cut corners, that's right, there's no cutting corners, yeah and so that's very cool, and you see a very high order. Ethic emerge out of that. You want to be the kind of player that everybody I kind of wrote about that in twelve rules for life. When you know because part of my advice in rule five was not to let your kids do anything that makes you dislike them and that's part of the idea
there is that you know if you're, really on the side of your children, you help them develop in a manner that makes them eminently design. Able to other children and capable of interacting property with adults, because then the whole world opens up to them. That's a really, and then you do that. The thing that's cool about that, too, is that this is what makes the post my and the marxist type so wrong. Is that your best strategy for success in life isn't the exercise of raw power. It's a really counterproductive strategy, doesn't even work very well for advanced animals. Your best strategy is skill and reciprocity. So there's a real high order ethic in that that has nothing to do. So the idea that our hierarchies are predicated on power in their correct. Because of that, in the whole world is a battle ground between hierarchies of you know, different power hierarchies in it's winner take all, and you know the devil take the hindmost. That's just that's completely inappropriate, psychologically and a real situation where you
very rarely find people who excel at competition and who, benefited from competition who are against competition and you very rarely find people who have no skill in competition at all and who have bring gauged, have shied away from of their whole life that support it and and the and believe that it's an important part of our culture. I think people want they want to believe, and they want to support things that reinforce their idea of how they're living their life correctly and, if the, if they shy away from competition, if it makes nervous if they've never excelled at it. If it doesn't feel right to them if it makes them uncomfortable, they want to feel. But there's some better way, and this is one of the things that leads young, sensitive kind, compassionate people, Tord Socialism and this concept capitalism and any form of competition at all ultimate is Ulta, He is going to lead to a few people. Hogging up all the wealth
dominating all the people. Well, the other thing that's kind of sad about that. Is that no matter what system you set up that outcome Yeah know like if you look at the Prado distribution. So if that's the distribution of wealth, you fine not in every society that we know of whether it's capitalist or socialist or communist. For that matter, a small proportion of the people have a disproportionate amount of the resources. So so so the other thing that I've been trying to explain in lectures. Is that if you were really concerned about the dispossessed and the poor, you wouldn't put hierarchical dispossession at the feet of capitalism, 'cause, it's a way worse problem than that you know, 'cause the! Texas types they think. Well, if we didn't have capitalism there, will be hierarchies in there wouldn't be dispossession and that's complete bloody rubbish because
problem of hierarchy in the problem of disposition is way deeper than the problem of capitalism so like, if you look at neolithic grave sites way before there was capitalism, you see that a small. Number of people are buried with all the gold, so the the the fact of of DIS ease this unequal distribution of resources. That's as old as that's that's as old as hierarchies are old, it's unbelievably old and so for the leftists to take an anti capitalist mission and assume that that's going to be a benefit to the dispossessed is an idea- that's at least one hundred and forty five years out of date as far as I'm concerned, but we do want to discourage tyranny, and we do want to keep keep that we do want to, someone from accumulating so much wealth that they dominate the world and have a disproportion affect on culture and and do things that are detrimental. That could be in fact, at Jim out for decades and decades to come. I mean
and look to this day. Well, that's where you have a balance of powers in the United States turn because yeah well, the thing is it's not the case. If you choose like the fact that you can't characterize the where as a patriarchal tyranny, doesn't mean that hierarchies don't become tyrannical. Sometimes they do. And yet we have to be alert to that and that's been known for a very long time. So is it fair to say that the West has some aspects of hierarchic hierarchal tyranny? Of course, of course, into debt to die would say that's a mythological truism. So, like The the way that that society is represented in our deep narrative structures, there's always two fold. Why is king in a tyrannical king and there are pitted against each other, and your job is to amplify the wise king and keep the tyrant under control? That's the evil adviser to the king. You know like scar in the
Lion, king yeah right so he's. There's always this shadowy figure in the background that's malevolent and psychopathic and power obsessed, that's attempting to take over the hierarchy. Bye, bye, ill gotten means that did not. That starts starts evil itself. In some sense it's the archetype of evil, and so that has to be taken into consideration. But the problem with the view point that's so prevalent in our society right now. Is that not The patriarchal tyranny viewpoint is that it's only the evil king and then that's particularly hard on young men, because if you believe all of our hierarchies are predicated on nothing but arbitrary power and then that's a natural consequence of masculinity, then, whenever you see anyone who's masculine, manifest anything, that's associated with competence or confidence or or or or or let's say, competitiveness or or you know, Heaven forbid agree
can then you meet assume that that's nothing but a manifestation of tyrannical power and that you discourage or or or you certainly failed to encourage it, and I think that that's a dreadful mistake, because that that masculine enerji, whether that's characteristic of women or men, because women can certainly manifest that. That's something that should be integrated, uh celebrated on the way you do that, that's partly why Mechanix seems like competitive sports are so necessary. Is that you want to take kids, let's say boys, the more competitive aggressive boys. Just for this example, you want to then you want to socialize them intensely so that they take that aggressive competitive impulse and there capable of manifesting it inside a social structure like a game, so that it's a benefit to everyone and you can do that and it's not a problem. You know you teaching aggressive kid that it's beneath his dignity. To bully someone weaker. So you can
catch that right to the competitiveness is like you're, a loser. You bully someone weaker than you you're a loser. That's prophetic! Yes, like I did it it. It speaks right to that compared give drivers want to be a little sense of martial arts are so critical. I mean that's one of the major tenets of martial arts. You know this is a. It is a huge part of what's taught in traditional martial arts academies is there's a very clear way of behaving and you're you're, never supposed to do anything remotely like bill right right you're supposed to have 'cause. It's resus of your power exactly and you're supposed to have extreme reverence for the people who taught you I mean your master. You literally call them a master you know in almost all martial arts they were fighting. So that's not! Well, so that's another thing: that's really that's really interesting about it. Functional hierarchy is like 'cause. Leftist critics look at a hierarchy and they think every position is up looking down right, but
You're saying what you're pointing out is knowing a functional hierarchy. There's plenty of respect going up right. So it's not only it's not just power. It's like it's power. It's it's authority and subordination at the same time, voluntary subordination, because you should be you should be properly- subordinate to the people who are better at what you're doing yes. In a functional organization that happens naturally, and the other thing that happens to and and the radical leftist never take this into account as far as I'm concerned. Is that one of the things I've learned about people who run successful organisations, whether their academic or business, is that they really love mentoring, young people, it's a it's an intra, is pleasure, pleasure. You know, you think think. Well, it's for the evil, capitalist, it's it's it's winner, take all and and and to Hell with everyone else, and That's an unbelievably cynical view of human nature. It only really applies to people who are genuinely psychopathic and they're very rare, and so YMMV,
most of the people. I know that have been hyper successful are absolutely thrilled if they find a young person and they don't care generally speaking about sex or creed or color or any of that crap, they care about competence. They want to find a competent young person. Who's got a lot of possibility and then open up all sorts of doors of opportunity for them and to see how they can help them develop and if they can do that with twenty or thirty people, then, like my graduate serve my graduate supervisor, had his he's getting old and he had his retirement party about two years ago in about thirty of the people that he trained it into becoming. Scientists came to his party and they talked nonstop about the beneficial effect that that he had on their life. You know he found a lot of the more you know. They were young and smart, but didn't run all that properly Orient in the world and he picked them out, and
the more opportunities- and he certainly did this for me- is open to all sorts of doors. For me, and that was a huge source of pleasure in his life. I think maybe the primary source, your family is well and call the sleaze family was of primary importance, but in his profession career. It wasn't his name on papers in his you know his his name in the mark. Kate was all these young people whose careers you could foster, never ending. Source of satisfaction yeah, I think that's a critical aspect of being a successful person that you have to realize that there's a there's, a great personal benefit and helping other people and that you feel this. This is not just like something that looks good on paper you when you can no some young person is coming up. The way you're ten years head of them. You could say these are the mistakes I made him. I can help you get through this and then you see them flourish. There's a great deal of personal satisfaction from it and it's got to be some sort of an end of evolutionary benefit is kind of well, that's part of see. That's the thing!
he is, we are you vault for reciprocity. Yeah, really our will not evolve for power right. This is this. Is what so deeply wrong about the damn post modernists in the marxist to salute that? Isn't what human before of all power is not the best strategy to attain success. It's simply not it doesn't look for chimpanzees because the more the the brute champs you know, the ones that that rule purely as a consequence of force as soon as they. We. Taken two subordinates that are reciprocally engage so that have a friendship, tear them into pieces. So I don't care strong. You are three guys that are two slash your strength are going to take you out so so you're much better situated in society and in your life. If you, if you're in an interactive network of reciprocally beneficial relationships that works in games, but it also works in life and to reduce that and and if you're competent, so there's there's the killer, combination hyper competence
and the capacity for genuine reciprocity that makes you unstoppable, Why? Is there this lack of understanding and appreciating this new in people that oppose these ideas, like What's the willingness to be ignorant about all the variabilities actually, when you consider the bulk of the research? Well, I think some of its justification for failure. You know like if you doing very well. Then it's really easy to think that the game is rigged. It's also easy to be resentful about people who see They have more than you have, especially if you're, not thinking about it very clearly. You know and that's another thing that I've been trying to. Sure to people about is that you should be very The lotus. Assuming that someone else has more than you do. I mean one of the best predictors whether someone has money is how old they are sold. Are richer than young people. Well, obviously, right
because they had their whole life to accrue wealth so like well, who's got it better. You want to be rich and older, young and poor. You know I mean you can't buy youth with money. So it isn't obvious who's better off in a situation like that, it's in fact, I think People who are old and rich would traded for young and poor fairly damn quickly. Well, that's why people really get angry when they see young, rich people. Yeah so that's just too much to bed now, like a young, rich, famous rapper like uh. What's that, fellow this seventeen year old little pump about that famous 17th, but you know high school seven one. The funny thing too, though, is that you know even with people who have that, that sort of let's call it good fortune arm, you know independent of of their talent, we don't have to scratch beneath the surface very far, even in successful people
lives until you find a pretty decent vein of tragedy, you know, and so it that jealousy of of of the six This is also based on a really unit, dimensional view of exactly what constitute success. You know you see that the trappings, whatever they might be Let's say it's a yacht and more money than you know what do with, and you assume well that's going to put that person at the pinnacle of a satisfying life, but there's shortage of dreadfully unhappy and addicted celebrities and isn't it obvious always that more money is good for people. You know. I mean you say: oh that's a problem. I'd like to have it's like look fair enough. For me, there are worse problems, but celebrity and fame, and fortune are also. Not that easy to deal with and they come with their own pitfalls, plus, there's lots of things. They don't protect you against. You know people still get divorce, just and they still get sick and they still die and their parents still get Alzheimer's, and all of that, like the the fundamental tragic elements of life, are still in place, one of the
things about people that are jealous of other people that are extremely successful is that you are missing one of the core lessons of competition. One of the core. Lessons of competition is to be inspired by those are more successful and not to try to chip them down and take away their accomplishments because they don't make you feel good. You, the people that are piss poor competition are always the ones that are trying to diminish the accomplishments of those who extremely successful. You see this in sports fans. Have you A loser, fat sports fan talking about what a piece of shit Lebron James is 'cause. He drew the ball or missed a shot like the Extreme reaction that they could have to someone who's extraordinarily successful is almost always in direct proportion to how much
tell you they are in their own life and that's one of the reasons why, in contrast, it looks so ridiculous, yeah. Well, that's part of the danger, I would say that's part of the danger of the entire identity politics movement is that you know is that that reasonable care for the dispossessed, which we already talked about, is easily contaminated by hatred and resentment for people who not only successful, but who are the it's annoying person who successful, is the person who deserves it, not the person who doesn't deserve it, because you can write the person who does. Deserve it off right. The lottery when you can say all yeah well, you know he's around is my exact yeah, but then you see the person is broken themselves in half and you know come out of a really logical background and is being successful and you're like your uselessly. Wasting your life away, that's the sort of person that you really don't like because they cast unit very dim light. This is where
competition is so important because the person that has a background in competition has been involved in competition sees a person, who's busted, their asan become something really extraordinary and it's incredibly inspirational and you look to those people and you want to read their biographies and you want to watch documentaries on them 'cause. It literally gives you fuel, whereas the person who shies away from competition is afraid of their own insecurities and failures and really has never tested themselves. Those are the ones that find these people extremely distasteful because when they put themselves in send to these incredible people. Therefore, they come up short. What is the I x races every ideal as a judge? Yes, so what's what's the answer to that? No ideals, that's a stupid death. S do more suggested; no, it certainly doesn't because then at least people without meaning in their life sold. Well, I think it, but it speaks to what you're
talk about earlier that we need adversity that we need adversity. We need difficulty, we need struggle, you need, you need a weight to carry, and if you don't have any of this, you do not get your character, tested you do not advance in your own perception of who you are in this world and how you how you engage, page with all the other people around you don't call out what's best in you, yeah and then you can't live without that. You need that. You know and and so and the trick seems to be that volunteer. Acceptance of the adversity see that's one of the things that I think is core to the mythos, Christianity 'cause, there's an idea that you should pick up your cross and stumble uphill and that's really That means is that you, you know you set your. Are you set your eyes on some high level vision, the city of God on the hill? Whatever that happens to be you know, and then you take the burden, whatever burden you're capable of lifting, which is obviously going to be a burden of suffering, at least to some degree, and you carry that voluntarily. That's the trick! Is that
and then you say: well, you need a purpose in your life. It's like well, look, there's a lot of problems around you in the world. You have some problems, some problems, even that bother you right personally, they seem to call out to you those problems. Maybe those are your problems those are the problems you should solve and those I think with the call to adventure like there's, It bugs me. Okay, do something about it! That's your problem! there's a certain amount that you could tolerate? I mean I think it's like weight training. There's a certain amount, becomes becomes detrimental where you've over train bodies breaking down the certain amount of problems you have in your life that are ' Extremely beneficial, because, through going through these prob, sorting them out you, you build your spirit, you build your character and if you don't accomplish, anything and you never encounter any problems. You you are this gelatinous soft, atrophied soul and you don't have the intestinal fortitude or the Spirit or the the human
tension has not been developed to the point where you can overcome adversity. The only way to overcome adversity is to face it so that they're out optimum that you were talking about. So I've really been interested in the neural physiology of the of the sense of meaning girl, neurophysiology yeah. We have because of the meet meaning the feeling of meaning is an instinct right. It's not a thought. It's a secondary consequence of rational processes. It's way deeper than that is something that drives rationality. So no, you was just very amongst people, definitely yeah, but it varies in this way. As far as I can tell so. It's so imagine, as you said, that there's an optimal load right. You see that and to your detriment, yeah and see that no weight room you pull a muscle, you heard or you'll hurt yourself. You can injure yourself very badly right. You can take yourself out for the count arms, but then, if you, if you
work too little while then there's no gain in it. You have to find that thin edge where you're competent of what you're doing but you're pushing yourself that's going to be where meaning lies. That's. What meaning tells people it says, you're on the edge where you're, competent and and out of undo danger. Pushing yourself enough. So that you can developing, that's the instinct of meaning, and that looks to me, like it's a consequence of the interaction between the right and left hemispheres and a consequence of the interaction between the negative emotions, systems, anxiety and pain that regulate you with that protect you from harm and that exploratory in place. Systems. The drive you forward. You want the Exploratorium play systems to drive you forward, but then regulated by these negative emotions. So you don't hurt yourself, and if you get that off to me right, then that's the maximal. That's the point of maximal challenge and that makes you really alert. 'cause you're, positive emotion is functioning. That's what's driving you for this is worth doing and you know
We have emotions or alert to saying yeah, but be awake and be careful, and you know what that's like in the weight room. If you're lifting I think it's at the edge of your ability and you've got a spot. Are you want to push and you can barely do it? And you to make sure that you're not going to like pull your arm down and rip the hell out of your muscle. But you you're right on that edge and that's the place of maximal gain and sense of meaning. That's what puts you on the border between chaos and order right because too much, what it means practicing, what you already know, and then you then you you stultify and stagnate. Too much. Chaos means you better. Look out. Cuz you're, going to hurt yourself, you're pushing yourself beyond your limits, stay right on that edge. That's where there's maximal, meaning menu environments where that edges and push it to push it yeah, now one of the things I recommend to young people, especially true for people in their 20s, is that you should push yourself beyond your limits of tolerance in your 20s to find out where it is How much can you work? How discipline can you become like? Can you twelve hours a day. Can you work eight,
there's a day. Can you work three hours a day like flat out where's your limit, and how much how much work can you do and how much socialize you should find out push yourself past and then back off to that point where it's optimally sustained, that's what a lot of people do. Isn't I mean they party too much when they're in the one is to make a lot of mistakes? What it's the it's? It's what they're doing and I would say in sort of a haphazard way right because there's a there's that instinct to go out there and do more right, and but it's deets on regular, made it and it's not it's not self conscious is, might be it's good to know that there's it's good to think about that as a goal. It's like trying to discover what your limitations are when you're, when you're in your twenties, so that you can hit that edge so that you and sustain yourself across the decades, and so yeah 'cause, you? Don't you don't want? You don't have too much fun all right too much fun takes you out you don't want to be the oldest guy at the disco. You know it's not it's not fun being, four year old at the singles bar precisely so you
to make sure that what you're doing is age appropriate, and you want to push yourself in every direction that you can. But you should be doing that with the name in mind. It's like you're trying to make yourself into a better and more competent person- and so some discipline along with the fund, is a good idea. So to take care of yourself and the people around you that's a one of the things I recommended to people and I've had quite a few people actually tell me they've done this. Interestingly enough, I said well one thing you could aim at if you had any sense when you were young is to be the most worth you could. The most reliable person at your father's funeral and so uh I think, that's a good challenge, and I had a bunch of people come up to me in this last tour and tell me that that's exactly what they did. These were often young guys. You know like before twenty said my dad died suddenly or you know he died after years, the illness- and it was just taken me out and no wonder you know he said I said I was listening to lectures. You said you want to be the most reliable person at the funeral, because everyone else is grieving and what the hell else you're going to do. He said that's what they tried to do and not gotten through it. So no, that's part
picking up that load. As far as I'm concerned, you get a little self respect out of that too, in a real sense right, because you know you know this sort of sad suffering creature, that's capable of a fair bit of malevolence, but if you find out that you can area heavy load and take care of you. Golf and have a little leftover for some other people. Then you can wake up at three hundred in the morning. Well, man. I could be worse, and this is not a political perspective. This is a positive, constructive way. Of looking at how to navigate the world. But when you break down the sort of behavior types there is people that generally support socialism or socialist ideas, or there are anti competition versus people that are pro pushing yourself. They fall into these right wing, left wing sort of paradigms, and this,
weird way that yeah I mean I don't especially there. I think that's especially true on the radical ends, but I think you get that on the radical right to, because usually people who are who are collectivist in their fundamental orientation. You know when they're they're trying to take on Duke credit for who their racial ancestors were or what? What I would say with the with the political issue is that I think that you can build decent, responsible people who are on the it'll, right of the spectrum and the middle left, because I think that you could have left wing political, She said her genuinely aimed at aid to the dispossessed without being resentful of the hierarchies and without contaminating it with jealousy for the successful it's hard. You you you have to, because when I worked for the NDP when I was a kid when that was a socialist Party in Canada, the leaders, some of the leaders, were people like that like a lot,
the low level party functionary types- they were the activist types that you still see today and there are mostly resentful. I didn't like them at all, but some of the leaders were genuinely genuine advocates for the working class. You know and they they had their flaws. Obviously, but but there put their money where their mouth was and they were trying to insure that the higher keys were open to advancement for for it, for, let's say the common person, so to speak, the person who stocked up at the border or so their children, which might even be more important. You know so that the higher please remain open to genuine competition based on competence, which would be a perfectly reasonable thing for the left to insist, right is that let's bloody well make sure that it's a fair game and so that people don't get locked out of movement forward because of arbitrary positions of power That's that's a reasonable, that's a reasonable part of the discussion. So I think if you build better people,
Can build better people on the left and on the right and people that are going to appreciate that rules to the game are better for everyone, they're better for the people that win their better for the people that are coming up there better forever. Yes, if you happen to have real structure and real rule, yes, and that you're better off being a guy like Wayne, Gretzky, yes, better off being a guy who's respected, plays the game correctly and just does his best and really truly become a champ and loved by all because of it, you're better off in every way right and that's the most stable. The other thing. That's so cool about that. So imagine this. This is the antidote tomorrow, relativism, okay, so the first thing is, is that there are real problems and hierarchical organisations can offer real solutions socially on personally, so you can confront the Limbs courageously and you can solve that's real daily rate suffering and limits malevolence, and so there nothing morally. Relative about that. The second is that sense of meaning that we discussed. That's, not some philosophical second order, consequence of thinking it's way deeper than
that sense of meaning tells you, when your the ski those russian psychologist, called that the zone of proximal development, which I believe is where the phrase the zone came from, and so in the zone of proximal development. This is what adults do with children, little kids that are learning to talk, adults automatically talk to little children who are learning to talk at a level that slightly exceeds their current vocabulary. They do that not even knowing it and that puts the kids in the zone, right 'cause. If you just talk baby talk to kids, then all they learn his baby talk and if you just talk like an adult, I don't understand a word you're saying so find this happy medium in between where the kid mostly understands what you're talking about a man that you're pulling them forward, so that puts them in the zone, now. It's a meaningful zone, and so you can feel the operation of that zone in your own life. That's what the Taoists are on about because they say: well, you, the DOW is the way right and that's the pathway between chaos and order. That's meaning, and you can feel
your life when you're deeply engaged in something like we have deeply engaging conversations, ok, which is part of the reason that we keep having them, and I think why they're popular and we're not. And attention to how the clock is ticking or how time is flowing or even to the fact that we're doing what we're doing we're just having a conversation and it's meaningful, it's in gay it keeps our eyes focused in our senses. Concentrated on what's happening, and the reason for that is that there's enough information flowing between us, so that were being slightly transformed as a consequence of the discussion right, so we're both comfortable. We trust each other. We trust that the conversation is aimed at something that's a mutual benefit. We trust each other tell the truth to the degree that we're capable of doing that. Then we need engage in this exchange of information and to the degree that it's brought taking you down a little bit and building you up in a different way. That's a little death and rebirth. There's constant little death,
in rebirth in a meaningful conversation, then not keeps you alive and functioning, and that that focuses you like that. That speaks to you so deeply. If that focus happens without any consciousness and that's meaning and that's our line between chaos and order and that's real, that has nothing. It's it's a it's and I would say, here's. Another thing: that's cool, so that line between chaos and order. That's the same thing that's happening when you're playing a game properly right because you're in the game and your you're exercising your skill but you're pushing it, but pushing it in a way. That's also a benefit to your teammates into the progression, the game as such and to being a better general player, you're doing all that at the same time and your evolved with a of natural intelligence, so that the from total output of your nervous system, says to you you're in the right place, right time doing the right thing and that's what makes life meaningful and and that's real I think it's more real than anything else. I think it's more real than
suffering. I think it's more we'll then malevolence, because it's the antidote to both of those and so so the whole moral moral relativism issue for me is a non starter. It's just wrong! There's lots of ways of Interp the world, but there aren't very many ways of interpreting it optimally, and you can feel when you're doing that it makes you stronger and then people that come to me after my talks and say well, you know I've been putting my life together. I've developed a vision, I've been trying to be more. It's possible, I've been trying to be more honest and put my relationships together. They're all sparkly eyed because of this crying sometime, because it's really had an impact up the on on the met a deep level, they think all wow. This actually works. It's like yeah. It actually works. It's real! It's real! I would say as well that that's associated with the idea of the deep western idea of the logo, which is meaning in action and speech. So you know if we the conversation that's meaningful. Then that's a
manifestation of the spirit of the logos and that's the thing that destroys and and and recreates at the same time because you learn something it destroys something destroys a little presupposition that you had, that was erroneous and replaces it with something. That's healthier and time you have a meaningful conversation that happens. It's like a little tweak now. It wasn't quite right here, click that moves and something new takes its place. So and that's a little death and rebirth instead of the catastrophic death and rebirth that you might have to have if you weren't paying attention. So now, it's all tide together. It's all tide, together with that phenomena, meaning and that's the same as the adoption of responsibility that all ties together so not so nicely the other concept of meaning like what is important that it's. So it's so huge to people, but so fleeting, it's so difficult to like what is meaning. Well, you know, there's a simple ones right like family and loved ones and companionship,
community and finding something that you enjoy doing that you can do that. It seems bigger you are bigger than yourself, but but meaning like uh, meaning of life, what is meaning and this one of the things that gives people so much existential angst and I think it's cause of a lot of despair because there's no real and while you can question it, yes, but the thing is: is that that's one of the dangers of rationality? Is that see the Egyptians associated? The Catholics did to some degree, to they associated rash, rational, the with a proclivity to malevolence, partly because- nationality tends to fall in love with its own productions. Intelligence has this like inbuilt arrogance and the Egyptians were really insightful, they tried to replace the idea of intelligence as the highest virtue with the idea of attention as the highest virtue is something eldest Huxley knew he wrote a book called Island Island was an island that was populated by had a lot of birds,
turn it into words to talk, and all they did was say, pay attention to remind everybody on the island to pay attention all the time, but you can undermine your sense of meaning and you can question it, but the best thing to do is to act. Pay attention to when it manifests itself, because it's a it's a and like like color or like or like love or like beauty. If it exists, it, isn't something you created, something that you discover and you can discover it. You just have to watch. I like your ignorant about yourself, you think, ok! Well, I'm going to, I told my clinical clients to do this in my students is watch. Your for two weeks. Just watch like you don't know who you are. And notice when you're doing something that you're engaged in it's like you'll, see
maybe it's only ten minutes, because your life is pretty out of balance, but you'll see that old man. I was engaged in something there for ten minutes. It's like why. What was? What did you do? That was right that engaged you. You were in the right place at the right time, doing the right thing for a few minutes. What was it, what were the preconditions? There's this line in the new testament Christ says the Kingdom of God, spread across the earth, but men do not see it and that's what it refers to is that you You wander into Paradise now and then, when you're engaged when you're deeply engaged in something. But you don't notice it. You don't Oh look, I'm in the right place and everything is working out right now. It means I've got it right somehow and then I need to pray this being there more and more and more, which is well. That's the appropriate thing to try to practice and that's to make that stick, to some negotiated. What would you call it? It's do it is
come to a negotiation with that intrinsic sense of meaning and to realize it as a fact rather than just as an opinion or or something that second, because it's annoying concept for people that would be so aware of who they are and what they're doing they could recreate that. So when they do feel that feeling of meaning that they could figure out a way to get back into this, and what were all the extenuating circumstances and where where's my head at what caused me to have. This is feeling like things were. Right yes, well, it's like someone gives you a gift and you think well I'd like that gift again, it's like yeah. Well, you have to figure out what it was that you did today so to speak and yeah I know requires a fair bit of requires a fair bit of careful reflection, but it also requires that ignorance is, you have to think? Well, I don't know who I am I'm going to find things meaningful: what are they? They might not even be things you want to find meaningful. They might be things that you even be ashamed of Okay, sometimes people are interested in things that they don't think that they should be interested in like
you have a guy who is who is is kind of a cliche, but who was you know specialized, be real, tough guy and he finds out that he's kind of interested in art or aesthetics. It's like well he's ashamed of that because maybe it's too feminine or whatever. Well, I doesn't matter, because that's actually speaking that that's actually something that speaking to him from the core of his genuine being he's going to have to pursue that or you might find You know that someone who's, really agreeable and kind of a pushover stands up to someone just once at work, says what they really think, then they realize afterwards wow. You know that was exactly right. Then they think. Oh, my god, I've decided? When I was a little kid? Maybe they had a harsh father and they decided they were for I've, never going to be angry in my whole life there's something wrong aggression, so they're going out of their way their whole life to be free of conflict
then they find out the one day. They stand up for themselves that that whole domain, that they'd parsed off as inappropriate is actually contains exactly what they need to put themselves together. What do you find what you need, where you least want to look? That's they'll chemical dictum in Sterquilinus, Invenitur, right talk to you about activists, 'cause. It's something that you earlier saying that you find them unappealing, I want to know what you think the motivation of A lot of these, like particularly radical left wing activists that want to shut down lectures and screen people down- and you know these uh auditoriums whoa- you think the motivation of these people as and what do you, what he sings the root of it? Well, I think that it's a quick route to moral virtue.
You know, like it's actually really hard to put yourself together, and you have to do that in ways that you can't trumpet. You know, because most of the things that are wrong with you are kind of low. What would you call it second rate and bear sing your all your stupid little habits in your proclivity to procrastinate and all the thing, your minor league, ashamed of, and then you have work on those slowly because the probability that you're going to be able fix them quickly is slow and you can't really brag about because it's so embarrassing just to admit that they exist to begin with it. You can hardly brag about it and it's sort of painstaking private work and you If you don't get a lot of social, you don't get a lot of quick, social status for it, it's effort for embarrassing, humbling and difficult, and then you can do something like be an activist and you get all that public a claim for be in on the good side, with no effort whatsoever
and so it's a loss. Do you think that there's any motivation at all to try to make the world a better place? Yes, I think that's that's part of it sure would it's flavored by this desire to broadcast your virtue. Yes, because it's very difficult to make the world a better place, you know that's the thing is no. I mean young people have a messianic impulse. That's another thing that was documented by Piaget that that there's a stage you know in late adolescence, where you want to make the world a better place, I would say, that's probably part of the impulse to you- know, establish a permanent relationship and have a family and and and take care of people you know and and and to take on some of the burden of life. It's it's that psychological precursor to that, and it's reasonable for smart young people to be concerned about
broader philosophical issues if they tilt in that direction as well, but it's all too easy for that to be pathol joist into resentment. For for those who seem to have more unfairly and also to take the easy route out, and there aren't easy routes, they're only difficult routes to doing useful things, and it's better just to do that and then so. I think that there's some impulse to you know there's some wish that things could be less unfair and that fewer people could suffer, but it's kind of a low level virtue that reflects of compassion. You know I I'm not saying it's it's without merit, because it's the compassion is the basis for the ability to take care of the people who are ill and and an infant women. So for those low level like where's our it's not thought through Mmhm things are called
right, it's hard to it's hard to make complicated systems work better and it's really easy to make them work worse. What about activists that want to shut down certain speakers like someone who's, my opinion fairly innocuous in in terms of the here's one Christine office Yes, I don't see a good argument for shutting her down she's, so polite she's, a feminist, she's well yep she's, a really nice person, this filming goes like that too. In the Canada. Did this sort of person doesn't make sense that people would shout her down. Yet they do oh yeah. They showed her down to say horrible things about it. They mischaracterize her in a really brutal way that it completely and dates, their argument or their opposition, to anyone, is paying attention to but she said oh well, along with she is part of it is a lot of. It is also just immature. Acting out, you know there's an error tolerated, and so I know I know,
a strange way yeah it is it is. It is well yeah, it's it's! It's part of our delta, I suppose about authority. I have it's and our our willingness to assume that all authority is contaminated by power. It's a concession heckling, two years, so it's almost like a year if you're doing a play or a musical or you're, seeing someone just decide to start screaming out well that person's an asshole but you're espousing opinion yeah and that person decides to scream out and they do so under the guise of more Virginia yeah. Well, it's to access to power. Yes when it's no wonder that radical leftists in particular concentrate on power? Everything is about power. Well then, it's ok if they use power as part of their means of expression. It's like well you're just playing power games. It's perfectly reasonable, even appropriate for me to play power games, because you know I'm oppressed compared to you if every
power than everybody gets to yell right and there's no one of the things I realized about about recently, as well as that there isn't a debate about free speech, exactly not the way that we think about it. You know you know, because the there's a classical defense of free speech, so the classical defense of free speech is that it's better for both of us. If we're able to exchange our opinions, because I have the opportunity to learn from you, and you have the opportunity to learn from me and you have the opportunity to learn from your own mistakes, an social feedback, and so do I negotiation beats war? Okay, so that's kind of the classical now, but that's predicated on some assumptions and those are your an autonomous being you're capable so formulating an opinion, that's actually unique to you and that in dialogue. We can mutually modify each other's unique opinions in a way that-
uses a mutually harmonious and beneficial outcome. That's all the predicate! Well, the people who are opposed. Free speech. You see it's not that they're trying to shut down people whose opinions are different than theirs. Exactly it's that they're opposed to the idea that free speech exists. It's a way deeper problem, because at the bottom of the post, modernist mass is the following assumptions. Is that well, there's no there's no one way of it in your in interacting with the world. That's preferable to any other way, and so what people do is organize themselves into hierarchies of power and then struggle for DOM it's within the hierarchies and then the hierarchy struggle between each other so it's a landscape of warring hierarchies? That's all it is, and you think that you're a person- and that you have an opinion but you're, not you're, just the mouthpiece of your privileged higher, and so am I and so
and it's incommensurate, if we're from different hierarchies there is are you talking to a me that could come to an agreement. There's just you acting as a mouthpiece for your power and me acting as a mouthpiece for my power, and so since I'm part of my group I want to win, because it's all about power, then why how would I ever want you to talk? It's not like. I have anything learn from you or even that learning is possible, or even that there are two people having a discussion. There's nothing, but the mouthpiece of power. Two mouth pieces of power warring so why should I listen to you I'll, just shut you down 'cause then I went and so this free speech debate isn't about who she who's opinion should be allowed within. You know. An overarching framework where free speech is is a real thing. It's a debate about whether there is such a thing as free speech at all the radical post, modernist types they deny even that
such a thing as an autonomous individual in any way you're just you're just the neck, This of economic forces, economic and social forces, you're entirely socially constructed. There's, no, you! These are deep criticisms, Michael I've. I've made this case before that the post martyr types, although they have to ally themselves with the marxist for for reasons that we don't have to go into. They are going after things that are so fundamental. You can't believe it they don't. There is no, Autonomous individual in the post, modern world, that's a that's a modernist or no light mid view point! That's or a crew christian viewpoint or a judeo christian viewpoint, or maybe abrahamic, religion, view who the hell knows. It might be that that deep, you're, the nexus of sociological forces. There's. No, itself. You don't have ideas or opinions there's no dialogue between us that doesn't exist. There's your group, your identity, your struggle for power and that
all. This is your interpretation. That is this power. This is this the fundamental essence of postmodernism, especially it's especially true in the format espoused by Dehradun Fuko Fuko. Everything is everything's about power, everything's about power and air Adele was definitely that's why he criticized the idea of logocentrism logos. That ability of the individual to engage in dialogue, the root for dialogue. This logos or logic, that's all criticize. That's all gone the identity, politics players, the serious people who are serious about this philosophically they don't believe in the idea of the autonomous individual, that's gone, so it's I'd like they're playing a game within you know you think. Well, this is a game, we're all playing a game where we agree on some things and and we're just disagreeing about the details. It's like! Oh! No! No! No! No do you want to make that mistake. This this critique is way way deeper than that, which is why
Terra was an opposed to the idea of Logocentrism. He didn't believe. The idea of an anonymous individual that didn't exist. That's just a fiction set up by those who have use the idea of the autonomous individual to advance their power maneuvering within the confines, of the colonialist, the Colonialist West and what's the rationalization for that perspective, is this to enhance their argument, right to to push forth their ideas into it and less less debatable way like what why well, I think the motivation is hatred for competence trade for comp. But I truly believe that, but we try to like go down as deep as I could to find out why the layers of the I think it's Cain and Abel. While I really believe that I think that because I can understand the motivation. Otherwise, it's like what. Why are you tearing these things down? Well, it's on the basis. You know we have sympathy for the oppressed, it's like well
Why, like wearing you're wearing your conceptualize ation? Does that idea of sympathy for the oppressed come from you have the idea of the individual in your conceptualize ation. It's like that. That's just a. I I don't I don't! I don't buy any of that! I I think it's Cain and Abel role the way down. Do you think that But when you're talking about the scandinavian model, where they've made it incredibly equal, and through this massive effort to take away any opportunity or two to to rather open up every possible opportunity for women that men also Have you seen these days? this engenders actually accentuate? Because of this? Do you think that maybe. What we're seeing also even in terms of the post and in the radical leftist versus people in the right, this same sort of competition aspect of it is also problematic, because it's
one of the reasons why there's so much debate in the first place and that if we, if we had maybe more middle ground and more opportunity. There would be less of an argument. There would be less of a reason to have these? These extreme polar opposites that may be embracing of more like certain socialist ASP. Acts of our society that we just accept right, like you fire department right. Like universal provision of for structure yeah, that's a good one! Schools should be, more emphasized in that direction, but it gears towards privatized rules for people with higher incomes, which gets away they are from socialism and sort of reinforces capitalism or right. But I think things like perhaps even universal basic income or
Certainly universal health care with you what you guys have in Canada, which we don't have here and definitely higher education at making higher education, far more accessible and far less costly. Stop subsidizing. The student loan stop making student loan, something that you can never schedule. I think this is part of the eternal debate right because you we've already talked about the utility of hierarchies and the necessity of putting those who can in charge, but the consequence of that which is an unequal distribution of both talent and right sources. Well, you don't want that to get so steep the people stock up at the Adam because you're right aside, he starts to destabilize, and so you have to have a continual discussion between the left and the right to see how you stop the boredom from suffering you Yeah from hitting zero is not good. You can't play when you hit zero and that's not good, and so I don't think there is a.
Universal solution to that problem, because the problem keeps manifesting, it's think about it as an eternal problem. Here's the problem there's a set of problems that will never go away now what the problems are change, but the fact that there are problems never go away. Ok, the fact that you have to produce hierarchies to solve those problems never goes away. The fact that the higher he's dispossess never goes away, but the detail shift all the time, and so the whole reason that you need. The political discussion is to take a look at the particulars of the hierarchies and the, leaders of the dispossession and say ok? Well now we need to shim it up here and now we need to shim it up here and now we need to adjust this and now we need to adjust this because you can't come up with a final solution to those problems. I think that's partly why you have consciousness itself. You know because if you could automate the salute Imagine there was a permanent solution,
permanent solution to breathing, you have a part of your brain that just breathe. You don't think about it. You don't adjust it while you do a bit when you're talking, but you get my point. It's like problem taken care of well, there's other problems that are so fluid like their eternal problems, but they're so fluid in their detail, that you need awareness and linguistic capacity to address them and I would say, the problem of hierarchy and dispossession fit exactly into that category? Is that we're going to organize ourselves hierarchically because talent is unequally distributed? It doesn't like, as soon as you invent basketball in instantly, you know there's one percent of the population who are super great at basketball.
It doesn't matter as soon as you set up an arbitrary value structure. You get a hierarchy, then there's the whole schlubs at the bottom. That can't put a ball in the hoop to save their lives and that's an internal problem. That's why it says in the new testament that the poor will be with us always a very pessimistic. There's two lines like that. One is to those who have everything more will be given and from those who have nothing. Everything will be taken. That's a rough line and the second is the poor will be with us, always okay. So why? Well, it's a reflection of what we just described is that you're going to get higher doctors and they're going to dispossess? Ok, so then what we want to do is we want to use mercy, say justice gives what you deserve. So that's on the competitive end. You get what you deserve. But there's this old idea, no old religious idea. That's a good idea! God rules with two hands right hand. Justice in the left hand is mercy. Justice me,
you get what you deserve, but the world can't survive that way, because people are flawed and make mistakes, and if you only got exactly what you deserved. It would be a hell of a world right 'cause. You would be punished for every single mistake you make, you know you be, accountable in a way that would be unbearable, so that has to be tempered with mercy. And so maybe the left is the is the end of the distribution tempers with mercy when it's functioning properly but can degenerate into that came like resentment of the of the successful and that's a danger on the right. You have the opposite danger which is well. You know you advance, because of confidence, but then that can all Sufyan. So you want to hang on to that position and even though you're, not your confidence no longer justifies it. You start to use the advantages of your
mission to accrue benefits for yourself that you did not earn and that's the proclivity of the of the hierarchy to become blind into radical. That's a that's an eternal problem. The the the injections had a guard for that OSIRIS Osiris was the God of hierarchies and he was always threatened by Seth, who is his evil brother? evil brother was always conspiring to overcome him and that's the problem with higher keys is that they tilt towards tyranny, there is reasonable. Left says that what the higher keys because the tilt towards Tierney sick. Yes, it's true, but that doesn't mean that The idea of hierarchy itself is flawed, and that doesn't mean that all- Iraqis are tyrannical. That's going way too far. Do you think that scandinavian model. That has revealed that when you do make things more equal, you will find that people generally tend to gravitate more.
Or traditional gender roles. That does this. Do you think that this makes people happier Has it been observed that this is a happier results? That's a good question, DR the Indices of life. Satisfaction are pretty high in Scandinavia, but I don't know if anybody has done an analysis that would indicate whether the the sexual sorting is a contributor to that. That's a good question. I mean they General idea has been that the scan Canadians are happier because their societies are more egalitarian, but but there get more egalitarian in the that men and women are also more different. So many women are more different, but Opportunities are more egalitarian, yeah yeah, so, but so then Ben in the societies or more are more satisfied, but it's tough because there's other variables because the scandinavian countries are relatively homogeneous.
Write. An more homogeneous societies tend to be more peaceful and happy are not not more diverse society. And there are also small countries, so they are somewhat easier to govern and they tend to be wealthy. So those so would be hard to parse out all those contributors right to figure out what it is. That's making the Scandinavians relatively, This is almost like a super tribe versus a country, yeah yeah right, well, and those sorts of societies in some sense are easier to manage. So there any benefit to this. This much not all that we could perhaps bring to the United States or to Canada and maybe mitigate some of the issues that we have between the right and the left. Maybe there's some sort of a compromise that a to a less less debate and dispute. Well, I think that you guys in
states are doing real well. Actually, personally, I mean you know your your system of checks and balances seems to work out pretty well, there's a fair bit let's say left domination right now of of the main media. I think that's a reasonable claim and also about MIA and of the intelligentsia, but the political system is skewed pretty hard to the republican end of things. At the moment. So that's not a bad balance and then in the last election I mean it it. Maybe you could make a case perhaps that things had told a little too far to the republican side, but the better balanced out, because the how the demo took the house again and it seems like they were more moderate Democrats. That seems to be the scuttlebutt. So you know It isn't obvious to me that your system isn't functioning well. I think that one of the things that's happening. It's make. Things look more contentious than they are. Is that
mainstream. Media is under such assault by the up and coming media forms, including people like you that, as their financial models deteriorate, but as their journalistic standards take a hit an as they lose their fact checkers and their time to be careful with the stories. They concentrate more on exaggerating the extremes, to attract attention, and so you know there was an article published in the Atlantic Monthly about a month ago, showing that didn't it depends on how you calculate these things, but that the radical leftists and the radical right wingers are only about five percent of the population on each side, and that the vast majority of Americans consider themselves something approximating the relatively silent majority, and so I don't think that things are arises as badly as they seem, and it is also the case right now that if
poor people and ask them about the conditions of their life in the United States. They tend to say that they're doing quite well, but that other people aren't- and so I think, maybe I don't know this for sure, but but I think, maybe that the technological pressure that's being put on mainstream media is driving extreme political views as a means of gathering the attention of a shrinking market share dance. That's a very interesting John and I wonder how detrimental that is to us as a whole, because we are constantly dealing with this bait, yeah on sense headline. You know and everybody every everything is a dispute. Everything's, a war yeah everything was nerve, wracking. Yes, yes, you know, I mean I noticed this years ago, because I I really stop watching the news or twenty five years ago, although I've been heavily involved in the last two years, because I noticed that most of what passed for news was a because my sense was well if it isn't important in a month if it is the important month from now, it was never important and
almost everything. That's news is like apart right now yeah, and so I tried to stay away from that. It was better for my peace of mind and I often recommended to my clinical clients who were depressed and anxious that they shield themselves from the news as much as possible, but now there's the news is everywhere right: it's everywhere: it's twitter, it's Facebook, It's Youtube. It's like we're just inundated by it. It's like CNN on steroids, it's before our news cycle and it's produced by everyone, whether there inform they're not an it's really high emotion, and I think that that is making things look a lot worse to us than they actually are I think it's also similar to what we were talking about earlier. When it comes to reading comments on Instagram or Twitter, I just think there's just an amount of data. Yeah, that's incomprehensible. I don't think you can handle that. I don't think you navigate it. You can navigate that many relationships. I mean these. Are
the reason why we have this Dunbar's number in our head. We, if you're, dealing with hundreds of thousands of people in your case, one million followers that are constantly interacting with you it's gonna drive you mad. Well, you don't even know what to do with it. No like I because I I well, I don't even know what my ethical obligation is to my brighter followers. You know because, like there's, a million people following cattle react to all no yeah, well, Certainly, I know one limitation, which is that having it drive me insane is probably not a good outcome for anyone, except for those who, hope that I would fall this is. This is a personal thing right, because personal thing right there they're responding and the mentions, are to you personally, but in the lesser way perhaps, but it is still also overwhelming is just the sheer amount of information. That's available constantly about everything. There's a million stories every day about every single thing. That's going on in your life, well empire
everywhere on the whole planet yeah and we're. How are you supposed to navigate that? How you supposed to get through life and concentrate on things that are truly meaningful for you in the present moment, without being completely detached from the outside world, it's this balance that people try to find that is so elusive. It's so hard to figure out how much to watch. How much of this political process do. I pay attention to. Well, that's the big technological challenge. Yes, you know I mean we thought when I was a kid we thought. Oh, my god, you know, kids are sitting in front the television four hours a night. It's like could you ain't seen nothing yet how right you know it's all day, long on the phone all day, long yeah and the phones are so much more powerful than television that there. Well, it's like a typewriter compared to a computer. Yes, no one yeah! It's well and it's it's! It's did so so we don't know how to adjust to that psychologically, but it's even worse than that, because as soon as you adjust to the degree that you do, the technology changes on, you
right so much more immersive sure it's always leading in that direction. Yeah yeah! So it's a real You know I see this, especially with parents who have teenage kids. Like they know, the phones aren't. You know I've. I've been talking to some teenagers lately about about you know. Maybe these are kids that are are getting bullied on social media. It's like, I think. Well, when I was fourteen, you know it's kind of a rough time of life and you go to school and you've got your friends and got your enemies. And then you come home and your friends aren't there and neither are your enemies right outside there's an outside of that yeah, but now the media. There's no outside you know one kid I was talking to had moved schools and it's doing quite well in the new one, but the people from the this is old. School are still after them on social media. So you know, and you think well just don't use your phone. It's like yeah! You tell your teenager, you try not using your phone for a whole day, yeah.
Well the teenagers going to be able to manage the phone. It's like no they're, not you can't manage the phone. Nobody can manage the full, it's not just teenagers. My middle daughter is ten years old and all of her friends have phone yeah. All of it is like two of her friends that don't have yeah and they come over the house and we have a rule at our house. You can't use a phone like once you so the house is no phones. You have friends, come over the house and one of the consulate on the phone and- and we saw like you- can't do that yeah and the the look you like. We talk This is my life. My life is my phone. They want to make twitter posts Instagram and they want to do Facebook and they want to. They want to snap with each other with Bunny ears on and then this. These kids are just doing this all day long and they are mastering the technology yeah. That's the other thing. It's not surprising that they're trying to adapt to it, but but it's happening at a really early age, because if you're, giving your kid a phone you're, not putting any parental filters on it, you're allowing that kid to have full access to
and the world wide web and they're just going to. If you give your kid to phone and you don't think they'll know how to use the phone other than you within a year or year, a fool thrown out they're, going to they're going to have that thing figured out in ways that you haven't even imagined, so no you're, not control. That's sure it's, so it is a very extraordinarily unprecedented time to sort of navigate this world- and I don't think any does not have been, as I mean, civilizations have a deal with worse things right, you have. Balance and famine yeah disease. I don't think anyone's had to deal with such a like a radically transformative. Medium. Well, we have this range of possibilities well, and you ain't seen nothing yet right I mean this is just getting going well, have you been watching, Boston Dynamics- Videos yeah- oh my god- there's lots of guys in Here- oh yeah- I bet I mean the amount of progress they've made in five years is just absolutely stack
I bet they smell like sulfur, and they don't even know. I bet you bring me here is going on is captured in, Well, Elon Musk was on the podcast talking about some new development that worked on called neural link. And that this is some radical, new way of accentuating bandwidth between human beings and information and just increasing the access to it an he was very vague. About it yeah. He said it was going to come out with in x amount of months yeah well they've already you know there are. Scientists have already managed direct brain to computer. Thanks right. You can get monkeys, for example, to move a robotic arm and so- and I suspect that you know you can and learn to control single neurons. In your face. My suspicions are that will be able to develop technologies that will be wearable that won't have to be neural implants that you'll be able to communicate with neurally
and yeah. It's not very far down the road in the arm. You know the the probability that we're going to build. You know a you know bow tie. What's his name, Kurzweil's idea, the singularity in well, it's wild idea. It seems somewhat improbable and I had a friend who once told me that if something is impossible then it won't happen. You know they'll be something that will come up to stop it. That you won't expect, and maybe the singularity is one of those things, but you know, I know a lot of guys who are in the high end computational world in A lot of them are convinced that were within a decade of a machine, that's as powerful as a human brain, and I know people have been saying that for a long time, but Jesus you know, compute, getting good emotion, recognition, they're, getting really good at facial recognition. They can three with one another. They can imitate those Boston, dynamic robots are pretty damn impressive and they're, mostly autonomous
Not all sorts of things that can navigate on their own, like these autonomous cars, like all these things are they're coming together, real fast have you ever watched black mirror on Netflix, the only one I watched, was the one that outlined what the Chinese are now doing to their own people, all yeah, the crisper one yeah. No, no, the one where everything you do is rate all round right, the social network, one right right, right, yes, which now, which is quite frightening and reasonably probable, our high percent probable. I was talking about the one. It's I think it's called heavy metal, it's about autonomous robots that seek out people in Callum and did these artificial intelligence people that are made These Boston, dynamic robots- and you know the scariest one that I read about was DARPA one called the eater row. Eatr it operates on it uses as a fuel uses biological material as fuel which mean
If you're kidding no kidding. No, I'm not crazy. I see are so. This is going to be able to eat dead bodies in the field the erratically and use it as fuel to communicate well good. That sounds like a fine thing to develop fuckin' imagine an arm. Of robotic armed artificially intel isn't things corpse eaters eat corpses in order to have fuel to continue to kill someone's, obviously imagining that it's I mean this is a real thing, yeah. Well, I mean part of the reason that I'm doing what I'm doing with regards to these lectures, is you know, I think that we're in a time of unparalleled possibility, yeah so for good, an for an for evil and that the more people that there are out there who have their act together, the better the probability that we're going to be able to manage it, because we've all got some hard decisions to make coming up real fast. You know these guys that are working on these AI systems, I'm hoping that
Ones that are more ethically oriented in a proper direction will be the ones that have the upper hand, I'm really hoping that so yeah collectively and what's the matter was looking into it. 'cause this that came up before that it breaks the Geneva conventions. If they actually eat dead bodies, you can do that yeah, whatever it's a white one, that we have a robot war, do that saving inventions out the window yeah? I know I I I couldn't agree with you more, and I think personally, this is important and collectively it's very important that I mean I just think it's. I think what you wrote. Twelve rules for life. We need rules, we need rules to be able to figure out how to navigate this thing. Well, that's why I think that the individual level of analysis is the right one. Is that I'm hoping that you know that every time someone comes up and talks to me and says: look you know. I was in a dark place and I got my life together and this is how it's going. I think that tilts the scales
on trivially towards a good outcome. Yes and the more people that that's happening to the better and I don't think, there's a more effective way of doing it, that trade on the individual. No, I don't think there is either and it's happening a lot. You know I I hear it every day. I hear it every day with people to find you and find a lot of other inspirational people online and just John go, and this is how many of them there. So many in there so much fuel now for inspiration, the fun that that inspiration could become popular yeah, it's crazy. It is always come. There are no kidding no kidding and encouragement, and one of the things that's quite sad is the is how little encouragement people need, and it's so touching. You know, because I'm I'm constantly in a state of like being overwhelmed well, even with what happened this morning, when I went to hold foods. You know 'cause, it's overwhelming to have people come up and like they share these really intimate pieces of their life with you in twenty seconds. You know it's like, like you're, an old friend, you know and like
what my life was like dark, you know it's dark and here's a bunch of good things that are happening. It's like this little blast of, like the persona of the person, disappears and you get to see the real person there for twenty seconds. It's like it's really it's overwhelming, but every time that happens as far as I'm concerned, it's a victory yeah. It's a victory that multiplies two is far as I'm concerned, so I'm hoping that well, every little bit helps you know that It certainly does and by the way, if you meet me- and you have one of those stories- and I don't know how to react. This is how it is. You know I go wow, that's amazing, yeah! Well, that's what someone also manages to perhaps more yeah. That's it genuinely happy for you, but I still don't know how to react. That's how to react. I don't I never will learn, that's how to react. Yeah! That's how to react. That's all you need is like that's great man. I hope you keep doing it. That's all I can say, and it always feels flat. You know I mean
would they had said, is so mind blowing and I'm saying terrific yeah, but it is true, it is terrific. It says it is absolutely we just didn't know three hours. It's gone. I always really pleasure to see a joke Pearson. Your good man thanks very much. Thank you, everyone for tuning into the podcast and thank you to our sponsors. Thank you to simply save protect your home today and get a great deal on home security. When you go to simplysave dot com, Slash Rogan, you get this one, the holiday offer and make sure you use that? U, r l, so that they know that we sent you that simply save dot com, Slash Rogan S! I am p l, I s a f e dot com, Slash Rogan, simply say thank you also to the mother cash APP, the cash out the number one app in finance, a wonderful app with a fantastic
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toothbrush, so does get your first refill pack for free at g e t e q. U I p dot com, Slash Rogan, we're done. We did it. We got through how awesome is Jordan Peterson? You learn some from the guy kind of so much resistance to him. Now it's so fascinating to listen these people flail and freak out and But yet I've not seen the man lose a debate and these people freak out and freak out to him in person. He seems to have the answers he knows he's talking about. Even if you disagree with him, he is well. Why am I still talking? You heard him? You know what the funky is he's awesome that's it for today appreciate you folks, much love to everyone by.
Transcript generated on 2019-11-11.