« The Joe Rogan Experience

#1216 - Sir Roger Penrose

2018-12-18 | 🔗
Sir Roger Penrose OM FRS is an English mathematical physicist, mathematician and philosopher of science. He is Emeritus Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics in the University of Oxford and Emeritus Fellow of Wadham College, Oxford.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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please give it up for Sir Roger Penrith will gain experience. I served by a pretty good. Thank you. Appreciate it. I find my pleasure who robbed you into this, but I think I suppose James Tag, probably I am a big fan of your work. I read much of your work. I have seen many of your interviews and videos online and down one of the things I really wanted to talk to you about, I find quite interesting is consciousness and your belief that consciousness is not. Simply population, but that there's something more to it and what what you think this more could possibly be from a scientific perspective, which is unusual, because a lot of people have some theories about consciousness, but they're, usually crazy. People like myself
Well, I mean we're all conscious, and so we may have theories about it here, but No, the ideas came by Us Roundabout route, Cambridge. Cambridge do graduate work was mathematics. I was working on pure mathematical subjects. Algebra geometry, but I thought we got through yes, I'll spend some of the time going. Do other talks. That might be interesting. So I went to three talks, particularly which had a big influence on me, one was a tall, Herman bonding with general. Seventy cosmology wonderful tool. Very subtle, animated busy. Patience he Then there was a talk by Paul D, Iraq, one of the founders, of course, mechanics and historic. What is complete? wonderful talk to one of elections as well, but in a completely different style. He was very quiet and precise in what he said and everything
and where the very first lecture he was talking about, the supervision principle in Cosmic annex. So if you have a particle and it could be, One spot It could be another spot. Then you have so two states where it can be in both places at once. That's some strange, but you gotta get used to that idea and he illustrated with his feet, a piece of children. I think he broke it in two to illustrate it could be in one spot or in the other. My mind so the wonders at that point. I dont know what I was thinking about, but I wasn't concentrating and above human Slater he's finished his description His explanation and I had some vague memory, something about energy, but I didn't understand what he said and I've been totally mystified by the citizens So I suppose, if I'd heard what he said, he would have said something to cut me down and and made a sort of, except in one way or another, but ass. It was
It seems to me this was a major issue. Owners do have things that dont behave according to watch. Quantum mechanics says. Cricket balls and baseball's, and things like that and will lead to the talks, the other course was a course by Man called Steen who talked on mathematical logic, and he explain things. Girls, they're em and tearing machine steering machines being Madame The core notion upon modern computers, are based on computers, basically and. The thing about girls they're monsieur I heard I used. However colleague, when I was undergraduate First of all, who was it became a scientist later on and we talked about logic, and you know how you could make this kind mathematical systems which
worked out logic and I'd heard about this girl. Sarah, We seem to say that there were things in mathematics that you just couldn't prove, and I didn't like that idea. But I, when I heard the went to this course by Steen explain, what it really says and what it says. I suppose you ve got a that of proving things in mathematics, and when I say things I mean things with numbers: the ones famous example, there lost them. There's the go back, conjecture which isn't yet proved that every even number bigger than to as the sum of two prime numbers. This is an example of the thing it's just a mathematical things about numbers, you can see what they mean, but it may be very difficult to see whether strew or untrue,
but the idea of cities in mathematics. You got a system of methods of proof and thing about these methods of proof is that, could have a computer check, whether you ve done it right So you these rules, they could be adding envy the same of dna and things like that and you, if you give You're used to say to the computer say that here is a fear like go back, conjecture and you see whether it can be proved- and you say- maybe I gotta proof- and this far- these steps, and you can the computer and it says yup you ve done it right is true or maybe it they've done right and it's not true or it may not sanity, let's just go on forever, but these are sort of outcomes and the point about it is that if you believe that these procedures, do give you approve, in other words, that if
the algorithm says yeah, is true, then you believe It is true because you ve understood, though the rules you looked at the first one say: that's, ok, the second one is it: ah, I see. Ok, that's great and you go away down and You convinced all those rules work and if it says yes, that's something you believe no want girl shows, as he constructs a very specific sentence statement, which is an number thing like. They are much less. There was something about numbers which what he showed is, if you trust this algorithm for proving mathematic things then you can see by the weights, constructed that it's true, but you can also see by the way, constructed that it can be proved by this procedure.
Now? This is amazing to me, because it tells me that ok, you cannot formalize. Your understanding in in a scheme which, put on a computer. The easy statement, which scuttle comes up with his Sunday You can see on the basis of the same understanding that allows you to trust the rules that it's true, but that is not actually derivable by the rules. It see it's true. By virtue, of your belief in the rose and this to me with my golly. You know: what's understanding what does it mean Is it something following rose? Is an algorithm? Will this more or less as it's not an algorithm? because whatever it was, there will be something that you can still is true, even though you dont get it through the algorithm you had in the first place.
So this was a little over subtleties about this stooge people view about endlessly busy with convincing me that This shows that we don't think when we understand something that what's going on. I has is not an algorithm it's not following rules is something else something that requires our conscious appreciation of what we're thinking about things he's a conscious thing and understanding is conscious activity, so I the view that conscious act, images is whatever they are, not just that kind of thing, but playing music or. Were falling in love or whatever these things might be on not computations something you're going and I thought because I like to think myself as the scientists- and I think that was going on a heads is according to the laws of physics and these laws,
physics, pretty good. They seem to work well and outside world, and so I believe that the laws that work in is the same as those laws so I began to think about it. Well, what about Newton's mechanics, but you could put that on a computer. What about stones, special relativity? You could do that. What about Maxwell wonderful equations, we study how left electricity magnetism, operate and light and radio waves, and all these things that so far as this beautiful set of equations Maxwell produced, you can put that on it pewter, ok, you may have to worry about approximations in the least depend on continuous numbers row discreet things, but I didn't think that's the answer. Then I thought what about general relativity and stones theory of gravity with courage, Space and all that, where you were familiar now, lie go this detective, which is detected black hole, spiralling into each other from distant galaxies,
How do we know that those signals are black holes but well because of calculations, people who put the single an algorithm- and you know what those signals look like civilised. General, evident sure you can put them on a computer. What about quantum mechanics, Well, there's the famous equation of throwing her It tells you how quantum state evolves you could put down on a computer to its difficult in many ways is many more parameters. You have to worry about but its justice computer policies other things. Well, you see I then remember, directs lecture you see and how it is that these things that work in the quantum world, don't seem to work at the level of classical big things, It all depends on this process of what's got measurement and quantum mechanics and measurement process, is something you learn how to do. But it's not the shredding. Our creation is something
ensuring himself was very intrigue by this fact that his equation. Gives you nonsense and the famous shrugging his cat, where he produces a situation in which the cat would be dead than alive. At the same time he produced, adding example simply it demonstrates that, roughly speaking his equation gives you nonsense under any circumstance so there's something else and the something else. Beyond our current quantum mechanics and it tells you what happens when the quantum state makes a decision between but doesn't follow the short increase that one thing or the other now everybody knows that you, just quantum mechanics I think I always what school, making a measurement and you're allowed to do something different, but that didn't make sense to me and so I had the view that ok, there is a big gap. Standing and if there is some
thing in the world which isn't something you could put on a computer. That's where it is So the view held that for a long time and that something non computer, will something beyond computation involved in our understandings of thing that's a view held for ages. I didn't do much within. I just held the view. Until I think there was a array You talk between man and man, skiing, Edward Fred, Kin and never explaining about what computers can do and they were talking about. Ok, you have a computer to computers talking to each other over there and you walk up the room and the time he walked up the room to the computers. They have computer commuted communication With each other more thoughts than the human race ever has done, you see- and I thought well, I see where you're coming from, but I don't think that's what
happening in inhuman communication. Human understanding is something different from what computers do then consciousness is the key thing consciousness is something different from computer So hell that view, but then, when I heard the stop by Minsk in infrared Kin, well I had ideas. Is writing a book sums time in a long time in the future, when I'm retired this somewhere bacchus- and I thought well meant this- gives you the focus, and so I wrote spoke called the emperor's new mind which is supposed to be, saying. Well, you know we everybody seems to be thinking one thing, but there was a little kid notice is it said the emperor doesn't have any clothes still it was there, yeah that theme of that story, which was the basis of the book so say: ok, maybe lots of people think that
are we doing this computing about? If you stand back- and you say well, know, there's something else guy on so that was the basis of my thoughts about consciousness. But I wrote this book thing. King that by the time I got to the end of the book you see with it mostly about physics in mathematics and things like that, but I was really aiming for this thing about what's going on and conscious thinking and I thought well and abetted by mere physiology and so on and by the time I get to the end of the book. Pretty well, where it what it could be. I didn't yellow book and I just sort of take it off, rather something a little bit unbelievable and that was then, though, she had hoped that this book would stimulate young people to get interested in science and that something mathematics and it was fine and when the vote was published, I didn't get letters from young kids I got
some o retired people, whom they once it had the time to read my book ok. Well. That was a little disappointing, that ok, I'm glad the old retired people like my book, but the other, was I got a letter from the steward hammer off and this letter said more or less. I think you don't appreciate that this nothing else going on not neurons, I mean the neurons, I could see you couldn't isolate the quantum effects and that the u yet thee. Let's call environmentally coherence will happen, happened to Nougat no way of keeping the quantum state to the level. Did you need in this picture I really didn't have it, but still at hammer off. Did out to me this little things go microtubules and hid built up a theory that microtubules are absolutely funding, the consciousness. He had his own reasons for believing that, I never heard of him at that time, but then I check
stop you'll, get lots of letters from people who, maybe don't make sense. Sometimes the letters This one I thought well, is this another one I realise these microtubules was severe and they looked like just, and the thing that could well be supporting the kind of level Quantum mechanics up to a level where you you could expect. I e the quantum state to sort of collapse. That's that now we see people using quantum microtubules there inside brain neuron. They are indeed and the recent discovery, learn those waiting era that actually lots of cell Susi. People often complain earlier in your liver tune under your brains, arise and deliver conscious, nor that the detail to do with the organization of them and the nature of the particular kind of microtubules other. Other arrangements is different in the brain. How does it very in the brain compared to other cells? I think one big France. Although Stuart, emphasise this so much, there are two kinds of microtubules they're. The ones
of a license and the bee lashes. And a lot of ones are the very symmetrical wants there to be in and they look the same all the way around. They got a very beautiful arrangement of these proteins for two billion and they make a very nice arrangement which is connected with fibonacci numbers and things like that. So they look like four cones, but there are powerless. They don't turn taper off, but Some thing is in the brain. I think most microtubules probably want to call be lattice ones, and they don't have so much symmetry. They got a sort of seemed on the one side and a very important and transporting some since his IRAN cells and so on, It was also things they just do what let's do it they may be doing in the brain So the idea is it in the brain there Nice differently on the web
probably the ones that important of a elitist ones which is a very symmetrical ones, and for a long time, people couldn't see the difference because he looked very similar and they may well be the ones that have to be in pyramidal cells as a particular kind of cell, so now one of the things into interested me. A lot is how it is that not all What's the brain of the same? In this respect to see you got the cerebrum, this is the part of the topping by the down the middle on that when you see brains, that's what you know me see with a. Convolutions and in the end, is the right underneath at the back there's a think over cerebellum, which more looks more like a ball of war or something and the cerebellum under MR be argument about this That seems to be that has come. Lately unconscious and it as comparable number of neurons, far more connections between neurons cerebrum and its work.
Takes control and maybe, when you're driving a car and thinking about something else in you, you don't you're, not thinking what you're doing, because its unconscious and the unconscious control penis whose very expert and move. The fingers around and plays a note with a little finger that penis Well, I've got to move that muscle this when this bone that way and so on is its or controlled, unconsciously Lowell, I am conscious. Control is done somewhere else, in the cerebellum. When you, when you get the skills, so it seemed to me. Ok, you got different kinds of structures different and it could well be that these pyramidal cells, which have a particular organization of Microtubules. Are the ones that where the consciousness is really coming coming to light, mainly I don't know this lot, which is which is not known about this controversial and all sorts of things. But the cerebellum seems to be different and organise different
So it's not just how many neurons, how many connections either because there are more in the cerebellum. So it's not bad sign Do they know this from observing the brain through MRI or something like that during particular activities? I dont know I would imagine partly just examining it went from dead people and looking at reigns in underestimate how many neurons are on it right, but how are they know? What which part which was considering is pregnant. I dont know that they do not well, I guess the cut this era, cerebellum, There is a bit of an argument about that, whether it's completely unconscious or not, but it seems actions that did carried out by the cerebellum. You dont know aware what you doing, but I mean unity, the tennis player as to think very carefully about whether we know what with tilt the boy The control of what you're doing overall control is probably done with the serene room, but the cerebellum
controlling the detailed motions, other things move that kind of thing and in and make sure that if you play ethics, gonna hit the ball them down the line there and then then the rest is done under the cap. Control of an unconscious procedure, may be simpler. Fine, I understand see saying that there's we don't hardly understand. But we know that there is a different parts of the brain that are responsible for different act it is in some activities, don't seem to be conscious. Yes, yes, I'm nothing It's probably the case. None! I maybe I should make a statement by the arena bits. Certainly there are lots of different passive cerebrum wish, maybe which maybe not conscious to some are saying that the whole thing is capable of being conscious, since they seem to be differences in different parts.
But are you convinced that microtubules are responsible for consciousness or its primary theory? I think they're, the one of them. As candidates. Are you see? I don't think it's only microbes you I don't know, I'm not sure what stew it come of seal on this is. He certainly thinks the microwave was exceedingly important in consciousness. Nothing he's right meaning I get an he's done a lot of work in trying to find what anesthetic gasogene important What of the important ways you can tell things about consciously most of it. You can't just here in what it is, but. The important ways you can tell us something about consciousness is what turns it off. In a reversal way and Suez job is it? Do you know, he's an uneasy allegest? He puts people to sleep. Well, I think he would complain device putting it to sleep because an aesthetic is actually different, rustling, but
and unconscious and irreversible way. You want to make sure you think you could wake him up again, it's obviously very skills thing, but I guess a lot of his colleagues might be skilled at doing it, but don't be asked the questions about what they actually doing. From the point of view, the biology in physics and so on so still was really interested in that question, I think things like car, mitosis cell division and he was very struck by the way that the chromosomes or lie line up and that this thesis microtubules, which pulling them and there really big, Parson and in in the structure of cells and how they, how they behave and so on but why their consciousness? Well, I guess it was experience with with putting people under anesthetics and the fact that the gases which, but you to sleep in their again, I should say to sleep, but rather an aesthetic are very
unconnected chemically the different kinds of things be. They still seem to have the same effect and to understand what it is that they affect is less hit. A lot of his interests is to do that. So just by put, someone unconscious registering what parts of the brain are no longer active. This is they're using disorders, reverse engineer by turning those parts on that's what in people's consciousness as well? I think it's probably simplification if we have that. That's that's a good first step, Consciousness becomes as a subject. It's very its very susceptible to woo, right. Indeed, it's one of those weird ones where people want to start talking whilst souls and universal consciousness, and they start it gets its emerge,
area yeah, there's no clear borderline was Susi still runs these consciousness conferences and he's very broad minded has people all sorts of different views lightly. One imagine and not necessarily his view, but he likes to get a broad perspective on what's going on, I'm a bit more narrow minded than he is on these matters. For you, I'm too I'm perverse sceptical, because I just I understand the inclination that people have to lean towards the wool. That's very fun. Yes, it's for whatever reason people were inclined to leave towards you saw that movie under a facade are what the bleak do we know. Oh, yes, I didn't I all that cost. That was a little worrying to me a little bit oecd. Another does worry me yeah worlds. It's just. I was right The movie was made by a court leader and now it gets a little squarely you're absolutely right, and I am, as this house distinctly
I'm sure you were a lot of people that I know they like yourself worry, but it's this is something that everyone contemplates like. What makes you can just? What is the sole he's, a real thing? What is what is your consciousness? Is it since we just your own biology, trying to calculate your environment and looking out for its best interests and trying to procreate and move forward with the the genes that it has, or is it something almost mystical or far? more complicated, maybe even instead of the word mystical- might be tainted man, something farm. More complex and we're currently able to understand to some extent I would agree. That is because it's certainly different. I mean to have some internal adoption of the external world and the eyes to think abstractly and all these things it's early different from where baseball run. Through the air and one what makes it spin and indeed
print. Then every other conscious animal, I'm not so sure about that. I think the differences in that real, I mean. Ok, we we use language to a degree- I mean some animals used language to some kind of degree. Is a huge difference in degree and agree with that, but where there is a difference in kind are not at all sure. You know you watched these nature movies, and I remember seeing one about elephants- and this was How the elephants, where there was a there was led by a female elephant, is not relevant to the story, but they were trying to go from a to b at me what it was and they I have heard of unknown. We doing that, but then, at a certain point they met a detour. And they went off to a play. Where the leader of the elephant heard her sister had died and there the bones tusks expose with their bones anyway, with there and
the elephants, picked them up, handed them around and and seem to correct them. And move them around, and then they went back to join too that the route that they want. Now. What does that tell us there's something going on which is now just some machine behaving like a row, there's some some feelings can appreciate. Another one I remember with with Visa hunt, african hunting dogs and the dogs jitters wrote where some antelopes attend to go Netteke across the river and when they got to the point where the president that slow diamond and make their way get across now these hunting dogs- you could see them, I think, taken from the air and they would go along towards this place where the river was and then they would break into two. So half of them would go one way towards them and they were hide, where the river stars and the other half would gaunt chased the antelope. They go back and make an offer. Noise chased them right there and then the other.
Where's your pants on them something there, which is that there be more. Meta between themselves. How to do ass, communication some kind. He asked and I think, there's what were you understanding, ok, but a more prudent eleven than in human understanding. But nevertheless there is something business of clean dividing line, in my view, its it's, it's pretty continues, yeah and this exists in wars as well. So very very similar behaviour and do seem to have not just verbal but non verbal communication. They seem to have some understanding of what the task is. And what their roles are in the task and the, even though there is not as many variables, maybe a human life. There did definitely seems to be conscious. Awareness of first of all, there are their position, in the hierarchy of the tribe of the pack, rather things, but also their what their objective is,
This is not a selfish objective, it's a group objective and they they operate as a group and they do move like those african dogs you're. Talking about nor is fascinating on this. Love, indication that Turkey must certainly chimps and some things and dolphins. We know about them, but I imagine goes If down, I should think how much are we studied octopi their fascinating? Yes, no, I haven't there's a new book about them, which I haven't got the Chaucer. Yet I want to read it. I think they're their highly intelligent. Yes, yeah. I know I didn't really paying attention. For a few years, a good friend, my friend, Remy Warren, was doing a television show called apex predator. We studied, though, the way different animals hunted and he's started, studying the way, octopus and dumb. Cuttlefish in all these different, yet the different octopi and what the way they
adapt their environment by changing their actual, though I don't know, just to look at the texture of their skin instantaneously and This is not really understood how they are not only how they do it, but they know what there its below them, what their copying. They somehow or another can figure out how to blend in almost perfectly with their environment. It's amazing- they also can open. Jars can climb out of tanks. There was one guy had a headache camera on his tank because he had to tanks and one of them had very expensive tropical fish in the other one had its octopus. And he was trying to figure out what was happening to expensive tropical, firstly put a camera on it, and the octopus was climbing. Out of the tank walking across Europe climbing into the other tank killing one of the fish eating it and I'm going back and who has done very well. There's one eye sober
I think I heard the description or registered nothing. I read it about, though, some experiments on testing the intelligence of water Sesar and they had a little thing. They had pull a chain and then open adorn get food out, and this octopus, his thinking the onion and fed up with this thing, it's a yank, the chain came right off and then rose, Tom Start, discouraging all the people in their white coats idlers, pretty girl, you know there's something else going on. The gesture is something going on absolutely now when you, if you weren't, pressed for it to put figure this out in some sort of a paper that you had to despair in front of scientists. If you're, really you try figure out like what do you think it is like what what do you think consciousness? says where you see I unease too, is going too far You know. I know that when the answer is anything of quarters, I just think that this issue of having
some kind of quantum state which possess gives itself up to a certain level and the microtubules at least suggested something where you could isolate them from the outside, and the symmetry of these things is important and there are other structures is, I suspect, is not just microtubules. I suspect there these include classrooms- these are molecules which in these synopsis and thing about these ones is that their incredibly symmetrical there a soccer ball. You know that you have these Pentagon's and accidents and each vertex you ve got a protein scholar. I scarcely on and they joined themselves along the edges of the of the pattern of the Sakharov on a bit. It's just that it's just stay a substance summons made of these meetings and what are they doing hanging around in this axis?
but the symmetry has a key role as a thing called a young teller affecting quantum mechanics she tells you that when you have a highly symmetric structure like that, then there can be a big gap, between the lowest energy level and the next one and they can be information in this lowest energy level, which can be shielded from the higher energy levels. So this is a solar suggestion that some kind of quantum phenomena This is going on in a serious way. I do understand. I'm synopsis themselves, a kind of strange things you might think. If you are going to build a brain, one is just solar was together connection sissy. What are you doing? Having this thing with all the chemist chemicals transferring this information gas, I dunno. I don't know, but it's something very made by this, system and is tied up with these classrooms there on site, a skeleton structures which microtubules are one of the main constituents so use
I don't know, there's a lot to learn, unsure So it seems like there's a bunch different factors does the biological understanding of the brain itself and then there's the understanding of the actual nature of cells and of reality it so that this is being more illuminated by science, with every new discovery, we're getting a better understanding, deeper and deeper as too that the very nature of matter and of of of structures in I think it is getting deep into the and the way the physical world upright sinkings. We don't understand about it, just yet yes, I mean the biology is one side of it in coming as an outsider, I get struck by certain things on me quite familiar with the fact that the right side of the surreal controls. The left hand in the left, hand the right hand, but then you This is not just that. What about the souls of your feet right at the top? what about your eyes the signals run of the back
think this is the most ridiculous construction you you're going to the worst possible place. Yes, there must be a reason and the cerebellum is different considerable, Miss the left, side, controls the left side and the right side. The right side did the something going on which involves these signals. Getting haven't across each other or whatever it is. I don't know well would like think there's a reason, but then we look at other biological life forms and they look kind of preposterous like a platypus phronsie. What feel that is know experiment is that prototype that just ran wildest. Who knows? Well, I guess you're gonna, think of his in terms of natural selection, swords yeah. I guess this sense is there. I don't know yet in Australia wherever it must be specific. I guess, there's alot of that was because they were isolated from from the rest of the so you get so strange animals in Australia And- and New Zealand
A lot of isolation from from the rest of the evolution is so they do their own thing there. The marsupial yeah yeah just intriguing. What does this mean that the phrase quantum as another one, that's rob with will in the right and some people like Depart chopper, the like they loved to use that word because the Suez use that word, you can kind of get it was almost anything after us suggests. Yes, I have to say, I have called me Annex is a strange thing and its So the blame it for certain things. I know I don't want to be unfair him saying. Thus I blame it gives some people, the impression ok, the fact your theory doesn't make any sense this nothing against that crazy things. Quantum mechanics he's crazy. So we wanted to sip some other crazy theory. Of course, Quantum mechanics.
Has the virtue that does agree with an awful lot of experiments, easy huge insights into things that one didn't have before. So just a fax, it's crazy isn't isn't enough to have to make to make it something you should study seriously. Well, look it's very very difficult to understand, even for people who study it? Yes, indeed, so for someone like myself, I'm trying to pay attention to this without voting my entire life to it and it gets its becomes. A big problem is theirs. They too I am on. My books have tried to explain their actually to mysteries in quantum mechanics and they get muddled one of them is the subjects, is pretty crazy. Yes, but it's coherent and it makes sense in the view study. It probably is ok, say not that that And this includes things like non local effects where you can have two things now in thousands of kilometres apart and you can see
quantum entanglement effects. They ass, they still in some sense connected with each other in another. That far part, which is pretty amazing- that's baffling that's baffling, but does part of the comprehensive apart ecclesiastics, is muddied up because there's the other part which has to do with the collapse of the way function. Standard Quantum mechanics really doesn't make sense, but people get the muddled and my dear you think, because this doesn't make sense another and well it's all, but crazy into anything. Crazy is up for grabs, It seems to me the Quantum mechanics, the things which are crazy and they do hang together from the theory. What can you understand that? That's fine, but the things which involve the collapse of the wave function? That's not fine, because we don't have the right That's why it doesn't like logical sense, because it's not the right theory it. That's my view. I mean I'm a minority in saying this most people
who study the foundations of quantum mechanics they well, we haven't got the right interpretation rate, yet we we have to think when it means and so on. They dont think. Well, maybe not quite right, maybe there's something when this affects get big enough. Something else comes in and when we knew inside a new theory. So that's what I think how in something like superposition, where something can be while still and in motion at the same time as soon as you say that too the common person like myself, my brain glazes over and my eyebrows, raise up, and I got ok what is and then you're entanglement things hundreds of thousands of kilometers apart that somehow or another interacting with each other, in a way that totally understand, or we don't have a theory that absolutely explains in a concrete way, when does as long as you don't get to the measurement measurement entanglement part is pretty well understood, but the measure the main point not misused. The puzzles about they entanglement is
when you come to the measurement. Make a measurement over here and amazement. There can be well now fastened colonies, apart from the record, was only two hundred and forty three years on the added value that it's a long time, a long distance but partly any movement of material to the things it see in this game I have which involves the collapse of the a function involves a certain amount of displacement of mass know. If he's just photons slight among these experiments tend to be just light, then there's no mass displacement industry, and so sure, but Quantum Mechanics says, is fine by me. Ok, it is How to get your mind round, and I certainly agree, but is logical. What's not logical comes apart, but you worry about the measurement issue and the collapse of away function and Shouting I was very upset by this. Quite right is now well
you discuss consciousness and the mystery of consciousness, and then you take into account some of these characteristics that are. Displayed in the quantum world. Do you think that perhaps some of them or interchangeable or or similar to conscious it says that there is some sort of a connection there human beings share and sums some strange, unique in Miss orally. Not you not understood way. I think. Let us be careful about These things sometimes do well even news war. Who is one of the founders of these ideas answered? He tried to make a philosophy out of quantum mechanics, and you know what he called her. Complementarity, and so I think, there's going to be fine. I don't really see because
evidence for, I think so I think its a bit misleading that one. You can see analogies between things, but I dont see for myself it that should be taken much further than that, but I Maybe there's more there, but you open to the possibility. Should new information be yeah yeah I mean if it two things. Like you know, when people talk about entanglements things, Quantum states can spread too. Long distances, does not mean a human beings. Mines stretched along distances are today, We will raise questions like that. I don't think so myself. I think that's that's pretty far fetched bends. You might why. Well it could it be that there are some quantum state which is shared between it differently. Yours is hard to see. That could be unless they were well, I'm an identical twins. I suppose they were months once a month.
But you'd have to preserve that information all the way through, and I don't see how that can happen. So I am not a fan. Of trying to use. Quantum ideas so directly and save human behaviour or something I the inner those analogies a pretty far fetched, partly because The sort of mathematics you use and corner cash is very specific to quantum mechanics and doesn't really apply to macroscopic behaviour. As far as I can see. Is this something that is that your acts asked about most often You mean in my research altogether judges monastery. When people like myself, it's only one. But you see is slowly misleading when you're thinking about what my interests are, because I had this. As I say, I explain more or less the history of my days. There did right both parties.
One after it had to, in fact, I guess, I've written three books about that on the one was taken down lectures sound, but it's not what I do mainly right may researches is his own cosmology. Well thing: it is this area to a superiority but necessary going to that, but is meant to be, foundational quantum foundational physics not easily, but general activity. I mean that I guess the work I did originally was people pay attention to is in general activity and black holes. What a black hole is why we have the idea that there at all that sort of thing, I worked on them one point cosmology as a whole is one of the more terrifying concepts to me. Just when I start thinking, about the size and scale of everything I get to it. A point in my brain, shut off? There's none of juice!
as for is happening on, a pretty huge scale but it's like so many things. You look so mind boggling at first and then, when you get used to the idea of the play, round with the ideas and maybe- forget her mind boggling, it should be. I was watching a documentary, supermassive black holes, narrow discussing how the size of this is that enough. This is still current theory. This document it was a few years old, but they are saying that there's a supermassive black hole inside of every galaxy. That's one half of one percent of the mass of the entire galaxy, and that day, there's one of the theories was that inside the supermassive black holes could be an entirely different universe with hundreds of billions. Galaxies each with their own black holes and then its infinite. Well, you see, I have a fairly an idea which I think the mainstream does still regard as a bit crazy, but not like that. I don't think you're welcome
it's fun inside a black hole, now libraries and they're, not not months where you could have a really big black hole in this long time in the relevant one. If you, if you in the space ship. You couldn't. You can have a few parties before you, yes, but I'm not sure I recommended no. Yeah, I'm in black holes remarkable enough and that's the thing I did, which was in nineteen sixty four, Sixty five MRS show that black holes, I using a teller knowledge it wasn't around at that time. The black holes collated is coloured gravitational collapse. See that this the history went back to really August channel. Stay calm, indian scientist when he was not quite twenty rose, nineteen twenty and he was going to England to study visit.
Astronomy and he worked on this problem about what those white doffs apart visit is very massive stars, the companion of serious serious white door and he was doing calculations to find out whether they but the Interior Ass, a very particular struck structure of matter, and he came to the conclusions it. Had a bigger mass than a certain amount which is about to be less than one and a half times the on mass. They wouldn't bell homes of the part, and so they would collapse and he didn't speculate on what had happened. He just one is there are some very modest comment made is one we are left speculating on possibilities, something But then that was in the nineteen thirties gets round about thousand thirty much later, just before the war
saying that one I referred in, it was a bit late. I guess not. Nineteen thirty! Nine! There was a paper by Oppenheimer of Atomic Bomb Frame and Schneider, which has assumed of his heart and soul. And they produced a model which was a. Notion of the einstein- equations describes a cloud of dust which collapses and becomes what we now call the black hole did. This was the first clear picture of collapse to a black hole now in their picture They made to huge assumptions. But one of them is does the material? That means it didn't have any pressure, and so you can imagine when it gets close to itself, it might were pushed away if it had. Pressure is in any way, but this is discussed that was one thing but more important that the model was exactly symmetrical, so it was just vertically symmetrical.
Matter falling in the dust particles would be focus right into central point, so it's not so hard to believe that get a singularity where the density goes? Infinite, the curvature go infinite in your equations. Go crazy! So at that point, when the dust, reaches the middle point. Ok now a surprising because it's a very contrive situation. So I think a lot of people thought well. That's me then take it seriously. They think they went shore, but paper by two Russians Kirk, flattened, lift ships and feel and they seem to have proved that you do get singularity in the general case that summer was swirl round and wish I'd again, you say so that was the possibility. And then there was this discovery. I think he nineteen sixty two Martin Schmidt, Dutch, astronomer, dutch, American. I thank you
Where was living at the time. I don't remember that he observed became what we call the first these are so this was an object which was creating an awful amount of energy. Far more than the entire galaxy, but it seemed to be a very small thing. It couldn't be much bigger than the sun of the solar system, if even that big, because it Variations in brightness indicated that they hit the speed of light. Could size of it had to be comparable with speed? Jenny, variations in unknown and brightness came about So is it to be an object that was enormously energetic producing more energy than they Hogan Galaxy. Varying with such a degree that it must be fairly small, and this raised again.
Of whether it was small enough to be what we now call a black hole? In other words, it is a thing for this fortunate radius short, shut the man who first discovered the solutions of answer equations described this sterical body, but he didn't extrapolated inwards two was called this horizon. We The horizon, I used to be called the Schwartz singularity, and began to realize that it wasn't really singularity it's my sunday you could imagine falling through. I guess it was the major who first make clear that clear, but not may be paid attention, but that was the idea of a black hole and it looked then is these crazy ass could be having, black hole in the middle and I remember John Wheeler, who is at Princeton end very distinguished scientists,
and you got way right about these things and he talked to me and you were right about in doing we believe. Is there a single in the middle? Do we believe that shit, sick, latin coffee they so the swell round about sought? What are we supposed to think I started thinking about this problem and since that time Well, you see either people when you want to solve the ice equations. Are you make a lot of assumptions and it's a symmetrical light like thee It's not a model, you assume it's very special. It is, then you may be solved the equations, but only very very special cases in the computers weren't powerful enough to tell you very much about what happened. So I started thinking about this problem and realizing that I'd have to think about it in a different way and saw use ideas which both ideas from topology things like that to show that there had to be singularity in the middle provided it collapse had reached a certain point. No,
I guess it to get some idea of another isnt is not to mislead, there's a a mathematical fear and clover. The hairy dogs here, Harry Dog there unnecessary jocular terminals but you think of her something wishes, topple logic This fear. That means you see, you imagine a dog shape, but you could solve moving around Pisa Plasticine. Until it looked like a sphere it doesnt have holes in it. Ok forget about it digestive system. You see you're thinking about the surface outside. And then you have the problem as you try to come the hair on the dog all the way around the theorem says it's gotta be somewhere where the hare doesn't lie flat, any I'd, say: there's gotta be a point where we, the hare, makes a kind of singular point so it's a bit like that You have no idea where the singularity is that you from general toppled general reasons that this to be one somewhere, and that MRS
the volume that that are produced- and I guess a lot of people trouble because they never seen this kind of argument and lot of people picked up on its particular Stephen hawking and it became for while many people working on it, I guess it's not so popular now, because it probably will run out of the herbs. The idea of a singularity is when you see something like a quasar or burned at the centre of a galaxy numb and we're talking about a black hole when you say a singularity, would it? What exactly are you? Who do you mean by with a normal expectation? Is that to happen? eyes like in the middle of the up anonymous, neither does glad there, point there were the density becomes infinite
and so the curvature space time becomes infinite. So you have a play. The equations run away and they go to infinity and you say well, some he's gone wrong, but maybe Initially, it was in these very symmetrical cases, but but you could check by these indirect arguments that somewhere somebody's gotta go wrong? You can't continue the equations of Einstein and they got stuck branded a place where they go infinite. What in detail happens the theorems? Don't they just say that something goes wrong and that's what we call the singularity any for black hole is larger or smaller the singularity remains constant. It remains an in their its remains in there, but it's not measurable in terms of its actual size and whether you can measures size very workers, a size this. The treaty crash You might say the sizes gaunt zero, rather could be quite complex, it's an irregular, not lie,
the original, sire. I want my soldiers, even another. The point is the wrong point of view, but it s not going to know There is something about the structure of these things. You can say that not all the same, then the singularity Allison, but the black holes are not all the same. They are not all the same, but they this one or a strange things about black holes is that it Let them settle down there, not the role assigned to begin with, but there are not many deaths. Things they can settled into they can rotation they can have a certain mass ass translates into the size of the diameter of a home, and you ve also got rotation, so they can rotate visit. Structure found a non road everyone's in it was Riker an Australian who first produced the solution for a rotating black hole rotating. The rotating man, but then you see their remarkable thing- is that what this are allowed to? Do there
but they're in this which tell you that a general black holes, you very complicated, fairly rapid. They will settle down and become one of these Kerr solutions, the rotating black hole. I remember when I first saw that documentary and I saw the when we were discussing the the shape of these galaxies net, the centre of it had this super ass, a black hole that was slowly devouring USA, mates it is an unbelievably beautiful yet simultaneously terrifying idea as that there's this. Yes, infinite power in the centre of it, Mass, that's absorbing slowly, but surely everything around it infinite mass. The mass is quite well defined in this, not infinite, but yeah. I was a good question. I mean if you wait forever harm the mass actually get swallowed by the man who is ya, think the picture so not just a one galaxy, but a customer
our galaxy as this four million solemn ass black hole, And we are on a collision course with the Andromeda Galaxy, I don't know how long that many, but some time in the future is black holes will probably smile into each other and now be one big one so the mass but in infinite density, and that this point, which were there, are speculating that this could possibly in the center of the supermassive massive black hole. If you could go through that there would be another universe where that hold, Georgia is a nice romantic thought more and more will I'm afraid. So Yes, I know where it is a shame for science fiction. Mc makes a nice what's interesting that we try to make things more complicated than they are there so complicated as it is dark matter, for instance it boggles the mind that we don't really totally understand what ninety plus percent, as a good question,
What is that stuff? Well- You want me to tell you my theory. Yes, please will you see it's part of a story with shame and about fifteen years ago I must have I use a passing back. I remember how long ago now so I had. Idea you see the universe, ass a whole is expanding. Now Early in these this century, I don't ask me dates again: some people by observing super not stupid. Besides exposing Sars varied, far away? They found out that the universe is actually accelerating and its expansion. Some people found this very mysterious. On the other hand, is enormous cosmology books, because there is that experts nation- is nineteen, fifty nine.
I'm produces general very uniting seventeen. He produce- what's called the cousin logical constant, so you think of It was with Colombia, you think of a vitiate turned upside down, which is a member. And he introduced this term for the wrong reasons, because at that time people want there were some indication. The universe was expanding, but not very clear and Einstein. I guess maybe didn't know believe it. This is the couples. Observations have yet come to make a convincing case of the expense and so high. I thought: well, maybe the universe is static. Is gonna philosophically nice to think that the sitting there all the time and He couldn't make it do that so he had to introduce this term because a logical Carson and he that and then not more very much longer after this Hubble
showed the universe does seem to be expanding and Einstein regarded this The term as is biggest blunder which is an irony because it turns out that this term is probably the explanation for this expansion of the universe. We now see that's what people call dark energy, I dont like the term very much. His is neither nor a proper energy in any clear sense, but still that listen way about their rights. It's it's an odd term. Yes, I think so. So little confusing causes, dot matters where rights quite different. You monsieur confused with the dark energy, as it's called, of, causing logical constant, which, as far as we can tell it, is completely consistent with the observations. It's a positive number
small but seems to be producing this expansion- and I am quite happy with the viewpoint because it leads to a picture which I have been trying to plug for a while now, maybe up to fifteen years ago, Member of the idea is hard to explain, but let me try it came. About, because I was worrying about the remote future and I was thinking ok when these black holes around this will allow all the stars- and they just sitting around and what's the most and next exciting thing, happening well. The hawking of operation they go into irradiate away, Stephen Hawking showed that black holes had this temperature extremely cold Armenia. These enormous wonder, absurdly code. Much called an early made on the earth and.
But when the universe expands and expands expands, it gets cold of black holes and so those black holes get become the hot spots things around, and so they radio do. I very very slowly this hawking radiation carries energy, and so the shrink and shrink and the shrink on funding they disappear with a pop. My pop is probably a pretty big explosion, but that's not that big from magical astrophysical scale disappear, but it may have been pretty boring when you sitting around waiting for the black hole go pop, but afterwards that's really boring. So this was a picture I thought of being. Rather, respond thinking that states are the fate of fate trusting things happening. Ultimate fate is humble, be boring. Final state. Ok, this is an emotional argument. Give me a bit of leeway, so I began to think well
it's going to be us, we're gonna be bored, because we're not be around the main things at me around will be photons and is pretty house photon for two very good reasons. Why is it probably doesn't have conscious experience is not so but the other is more the science point that that they dont measure time a photon has no mass. It travels at the speed of light and weather. Way relativity works, it means that clocks stop. If you lie so if it had experiences, it. The moment of its creation would be one moment and the next moment would be infinity, and so they just zeppa to infinity without noticing thing, now she had been doing work on this kind of thing, thinking more about gravitation radiation and how you measure its energy and it was a very useful picture to sky wash down infinity, are used
thing to think about here. If you see these pictures by the dutch artist empty issue and there are those which are called circle limits in this very famous one with angels and devils interlocking an egg at all? right up until the edge they weren't, you gotta, about is it. This is kind of geometry, called hyperbolic geometry and the angels and devils live in that geometry and the ones right. Close to the edge think they're the same size and same shape as the ones little. What are you gonna do so the idea is that if you Look at it from the angels endeavours point of view. That's infinity that boundary.
From our point of view. We can look at it and we have what scholar conformable map. That picture is a conform map, but that means is that little shapes our quite consistently drawn, but they can be big or small and you don't care about with the bay or this more as long as the shapes small shapes our accurate or angles. Correct, like a correctly drawn. This was gonna conform map and that conform map describes infinity, you can do the same thing to the universe. Was it do it, and you can imagine hidden him where this remote future squash it down, just like in the issue picture to a finite boundary. And as far as the things with no mass, they don't have a way of measuring how big or small, as is the matter. Equations! Don't know the scale they don't care that work just as well for smaller, so big, and you can stretch it in someplace in squash somewhere else. As long as the stretching squashing is, I sit Tropic so
is much one way as the other way, which means more less that you keep what I call the light cones there there's not going to details here, but it means that that if you have things without mass and most particularly photons, then that boundary is just like anywhere else and the photos gossiping up to it, and so you might think they can have some way to go. Ok, Vanessa, You don't have to think that. But that is the point of view. I had the photos, neither need somewhere to enter anyway but then where's ago, but then there is the other picture which is the opposite. Then there's the big bang. Now you can do a similar such trick there, which is stretching it out and making it into a boundary, and that can be done to our you played around these ideas for a long time and these
did cosmology models. You can do it with, but the more complicated cosmology models you might have on which a very complicated, big bang, the general ones. Don't look like us talk, so I need a condition which tells you that the big Bang was the very special kind because it's all tied up with this thing called the second law firm in economics and there's all ties together with physics in a way which that's we don't have time to talk about, but it seemed to me a really good idea to have the condition on the big bang that you could
to do it in the same way, I should say the idea of doing this was a former student of mine, Paul Todd whose colleague of Mine- and he used- this is continuing conform or continuation is as a nice way of saying what the condition is on the big bang, to give you what you want, but that's a huge condition, but it nevertheless it's what start saw universe off in in a very special state, which is what we live off in a way is the second or third Lummix needs that to get anyway, I don't you worry about that, but they re. The point was that it looks as though is a good condition on the big bang, but it also should be can formally like a boundary which, if you had no mass, you didn't notice it. Ok, you got particles with mass running around near the big bang, but, as you get closer and closer and closer, the energy goes up. The temperature goes zoning zooming up these zipping around at such a speed that the end
G of their motion is much bigger than the ecosystem see Squid Mass Einstein's mass the energy in the mass is a certain amount, but when they get so hot you can forget about them so they like photons behave like her particles without mass and so they're just addresses in informal juncture, So the crazy idea had not just only you stretch, the big bang he's washed on the infinity, but maybe a big bang was a squash done infinity of a previous jeon. Through I'm saying our Ian began with a big bang ended up with this exponential expansion. There was another one before us. There will be another one off
there was no one before that and so on. So it's an infinite cycle, big bang! That's the picture and constant expansion to the point where there's no more energy and then somehow another a big bang comes out about. Yes, that's right, but that's the tricky part that people have trouble. It's universally accepted that the big bang was an event does know, a pretty well, you can theories that are attractive. I will say nothing terribly popular. There are certain ideas which say you can continue into them before the big bang. Palestine has and what do they think that what is it such things in common with my model, but it's not quite the same and and you see it still You see there wasn't right, not law, after on produces theory, and this Alexander Friedman, who is a russian mathematical, his knee produced. The first
because monetary mammals and one of these was the one which has sort of balances in big bang. It expands contracts, again yearns balances and conducted, so that was the one of his models. The only show this, if you put irregularities into these models, black cars in these backers form a crooked incredible mess at the end and that doesnt join onto a nice moves. Big Bang, the next one, so you have trouble with as much, but still people take basing seriously as they stand out until or come among, which is like that so visa things one when I should think about my own view is that they don't take into account the the black hole problem, which is that my my one gets river because the black holes or evaporate away by hoping of operation and so its forms a Mamma. I used to give talks about this feeling quite happy. Nobody would ever proved wrong, so I can go on talking lad,
I wasn't crotch happy with that. I thought. Maybe you could see signals coming through. I had one idea about that, but more recently and this is only just this year. I have two polish colleagues that serve Christoph might have on Europe. Ski and there is a Korean who works in New York or Daniel Anne and we, the four of us, have a paper which. I think today or tomorrow will be the new in Version of this paper should be on the archive and this the title. Papers, are we seeing hawking points in the sea and the sky was talking point you say it talks about the black hole so in the previous two hours, assuming its more or less like us, they would be black holes in classes of galaxies here, enormous ones swallowing up picked pretty well the whole cluster. And what happens to the energy in those black holes.
It goes out and hawking radiation takes an age ages in ages in ages, maybe ten hundred year, Google years or something ages and ages, but all that energy in the picture comes out basically month. I think that a ship right at the very edge you see their novel of angels and desert devils squash together there, that the entire radiation from that single black hole we'll be squashed in that little point now we're on the other side. What do we see? Well, there will be a big release of. At that point, and that's what we call the hawking point and it spreads You see what we see in the cosmic microwave background. This is radiation coming from all directions and this radiation, doesn't come from the Big bang exactly it comes from three hundred
eighty thousand years after the big banks. It is a sort of la scattering surface where photons, which are trying to get out. Finally, finally can escape, and we see him now that spread out from the hawking point to what you see in the innate cosmic micro background in there Nah scattering surface is something of the diameter of about eight times. The diameter of the moon, oh begun a smaller now, You wouldn't see the whole thing because past cone where, where we, what we seek to cut across it, we don't see the whole thing, but we see poverty most of it. So you could a large something from about four to eight times moons diameter riches. Small region, which is high. Energetic more energetic in the middle and take tapers offers you go to the edge
and we seem to see these things? They notices that that the powers they have the techniques and the actual Analyzing the data- this is the plank satellite data, We ve done by Daniel EM, and then we look at the data and we seem to see an effect which, see what you do is you we ve got only one universe: ass were to complain about. How do you know something's real or not? Will you make is zillions of fake unit this- is new. Compare this with them. Miss a love technique about high do this, but your first did a thousand of these facts and we sought to sizes of these look at these rings to see with his temperature goes out from the outside of the middle, and There were two sizes, both within this size, it I say about four degrees across the sky and There was no evidence of immature and all so
this is a real effect. Ok, then people for skeptical of as for one reason or another, so Daniel did another well thousand altogether and you casually they wanted to do. What's your three to be precise, where you see this effect in the simulations, but if you work the probability that this is the real effect you come up with a confidence level ninety nine point, nine, eight percent- that this is a real effect. So we're waiting to see what people say about this. What are your thoughts on multi versus? Well, you see this is different This is what sequential yeah so don't call the multiverse? They each influence the next one, and so we are not independent whirls right. But indicative the possibility of independent well, you see there are two reasons for believing multi verses.
One of them is the quantum reason that maybe we'll have the shredding is dead, calving, alive, kobay, indifferent worlds and they separate universes. I dont believe that argument. I don't think that's the right way to look at quantum mechanics, but many people do and that suggest that you might have these multiple universes in sums. What's on it? tract of about that here, it doesn't explain what we see see. One theory which explains the world. We see anywhere, we see you get collapse state does and to explain that. Well, it's only because we drifted off into some world and another version of ourselves as drift into another moment. Some see one on the other side, the other and they're all in superposition. It doesn't
explain why you see one world in and he says it's kind of coherence. I mean lots of people try and there are many attempts at the sort of thing squatter widely held view and if you believe, Quantum mechanics, that the collapse is not real and it doesn't happen and all the alternatives, the dead, Catherine Allied can coexist different worlds. That's the interpretation, that's a view. I dont think that I want. I want an explanation for the world. We live in an emergency cast different worlds with cuts in well, it's a long story bright and the other is clearly its view. You can hold too and if you don't want a monkey with Quantum Mechanics is where you lead. So that's that's right! That's the alternative! Either you don't make a single try to change. Parliament has at all and then you are led to this multi? Well, many many! Well, you picture,
I think it even doesn't make that much sense. You gotta be careful about it, that whether they are really like different distinct worlds. I don't think I really my views. It doesn't really wet, but let me not trying to tat ground. I think I have a different view, which is that there is not quite right and that there is something which makes the collapse into a physical process and That's it there's only one world now, the other many wells view which is comes from a different reason, and that is that there is see there seem to be various accidents in Bombay me, one of them being that the neutrons just slightly more massive and the proton, that's one their loss of our accidents we see that if they were a little different than life as we know it couldn't happen, and so how do you explain this? While some people say well all these universes with different values of these Constance
or coexist it's just. We only see the one that wherein, because the numbers come out right for us to that's. What's golden anthropic argument, I can see the argument. I didn't like it much that sort of We need a better explanation for why the numbers of what we see and so on, but that's that that what makes more sense to me than the other one so I saw, I think, Mancha, maybe ass, to take that seriously, but certainly not the view on presenting here. With this picture it's for someone like me, it's so interesting to know that there is still a considerable amount of speculation. Yes, oh yeah! Well, it's it's There's a lot of speculation, but a lot of it is pretty awful. What other people think minor off the rival who stood who say: ok, I'm
man, and so ok did indecent things in the past. But this isn't trust disappears. Now you I, I guess, that's what I don't know, but it's just me. I could understand that right, but I've got these posts, I got no meaning colleague, is things on this too, and I can't be they were all off the rails. I think no there's something out. There are now with their hawking points, this something people really gonna. Look for it. They don't see him something funny going on somewhere if they do see them, there's something else going funny homage which they'll have to think of it an explanation- and this is my explanation- I'll- have to think of a different view from the current inflation view, which is in real trouble with these observations
as I can see. Do you anticipate in any foreseeable time the future, a better understanding of dark matter and dark energy, or perhaps a better definition of what those things are yeah we see. I think my own view is that dark energy as its goal is the cosmos sugar content. Now, that's not an explanation. If you like is why is it wiser devalued? Has wisely it all and there certainly questions about which I agree with dark matter. I didn't go in this, but in this game of mine it has to be there. When I say it, I mean that if you want the equation to make sense which cross over from our remote future to the big Bang of Annex III on you have to have a creation.
The predominant new material which is scaler as it doesnt spin, is ordinary particles and that they only interact gravitationally and that's what we see but the theory that I'm putting forward make these things, very massive there about was called the plank mass. I don't exactly some freedom in this something like the practice Plank mass, which people describe as the mass of a fleas. I don't quite know why they make, but that's about tend to the minus five grams say look either. One hundred thousandth of a gram deserve an appreciable size is love. It's not like basic part, in physics, measurable, it's sort of measurable thing. You ve been imagined you. If we get that get hold on in some way, but that's huge for for a fundamental part of So it's so wild idea from that point of view,
but also they should decay and they decay de gravitational signals, which may be could be seen by lie, maybe be have been seen by Lego and thrown in the rubbish bin because they be different types of signals from one people, we expect. I would like to put my money anywhere there, but I'm lacking hoping that these dark matter particles are the ones that come from the theory that that I'm putting forward. So that would be another. Consequence of this particular point of view and naval observed correctly from wrong entire galaxies that they believe that consist of dark matter. There is in this I remembered, is there some galaxies the other way round which don't seem to have any dogmatic me? There are other galaxies which have huge amounts. That's probably what you're going to. Where they were only that values have trouble seeing rankers dark matter after
It was just a measured it. Maybe I don't know the Skype yeah. I don't see why not? They just have to have some reason why the clump together in this way it is quite possible of galaxies collide. Then, when you see the stars tend to go through, so they would accompany with their company the dark matter. The dust in the galaxies tends to get status, stay where it is so if two collide than you'd have a big pile of dust in the minutes, but I think the dark matter has to carry on through with stars I don't know there may be some process which could produce just islands of dark matter. I don't know when you discuss the cosmos may be the single most intriguing possibility to us, as human beings is what other intelligent life if any is out there and how interesting is that to you,
spend so much time studying the fund. Mental particles of the universe itself, how interested in you and the possibility of other intelligent life forms or of you just like put that out into it's just so redeem it unlikely or so far away from us that will probably never gonna make contact where you it's not theirs. Such a programme, looking it to see where they can see signals from distant civilization since the problem there from my perspective, is it over they might be out there I've got to have had a real headstart on us before you see them around, and they might have done so, but then I don't know you see actually via he goes again. Who's my armenian colleagues and who looked also for these ring shapes things and looked at them in a different way from the polish people but term we,
interesting, something there, but we rode a paper in which we speculated on being, this from the previous commission. The with us and the advantage there is that you're, looking at the really advanced civilization, related areas, urgency billions of years ago that day their universe, disappeared and then had to. Back to a big banks. Data signals have come through somehow or another. Those signals remain its currency. The boy I agree is pretty far fetched that, Who knows what so answer, how my billions of years you're talking about the big bang? fourteen billion yes but you see that's way where the big living in a sense or three quarters of way through in another sense depends how you draw the pictures right in the sense of interesting near sir in the conform or picture,
We are already three caused the way through so fourteen billion to now, so we have a how many years you see the travelers, it's it's a cheat iii. The year count much as you like it depends on on Sunday of the mass has to fade. And how you measure time is. It becomes problematic and is either infinity you see which isn't much use or you might have a different definitions of time which depend on what particle you're using this. Your clocks, So are you centrally saying that is entirely possible that we are the furthest in terms of our technological, cheap men and our understanding of the universe. So it's possible that were at the front of the latter there might be some other intelligent life forms in the universe, but they might be, but behind us there would have been
I'm not saying they got through is a maybe they have techniques for getting through. But that's that's a bit harder to imagine that term. Maybe information from them get through tat eat meat from the previous EU, us, yes I'll that they might have got through like somehow another survived? Yes, but it would have to be in the form of photons or something you know you could it's not talking about ridiculous right speculation for butter, encoding information and a photon. Yes, your while is conceivable short, and I don't want to say that that I see it happening or anything, but it's not out of the question that they could develop some technology, which would get information which might be them in some sense across in the former photons, but you're not optimistic about current intelligent life somewhere in the universe, not too optimistic just because
Maybe it took a long time to get going because the dinosaurs were there for a while, and somebody might have got in earlier in their different planet and they could have got their cried ahead of us. Is the it conceivable I'm not ruled out. I just not terribly optimistic about it. Now I think it's worth doing is worth looking Yes, but it's not something that really on terrorism, but I'm expect is I've learned so much? I be curious, certainly, but I'm not expecting it. I guess. Is it because of the overall lack of real evidence, and it's just not an attractive thing for you to pursue its clients, tracking sure, sir, I will you know. I've just been doing everything
is another nervous enough to do the work. I have some really come to terms with huge LISA. I know there's this activity, not I'd, be interested to see. If any of you now have this. There was this thing that came past, that some people speculated was a cent thereby and different in town hence, which came quite close it in our solar system. Oh, that was that strange, looking shaved Asher here I mean I don't see any real reason to believe it. So Alien was Because of the way I was travelling, there was the land, the idea it was something doesn't salaries about a serious people did suggest it might be something said by nearly civilization westwards with one could make connect with it in some way that this is too far away to her words. Another thing that so uniquely fascinating for us the concept of share of another of another life, far out their ocean.
No, she see the loss I'm interested in the ones. I talk to you about a Pepsi, some of the mainland although the consciousness ones. I am glad that there are people doing it, and you see this is one of the things that this institute. That's. Certain being created using my name and James TIGERS involved for this started it and I'm busy. Quite announcement and worried about my name attached to this issue, and I don't know much about it, but it seems to me a really important thing where you can watch the deliberate purposive. It is to develop ideas which makes sense, but are not means, and one of these was the consciousness thing, so you know still him off is doing it, but it's not a activity, that's being taken part people researching it. Indeed,
in other parts of the world, so they have a place which supports that kind of thing is great and I think that's very good. But when I heard about it first, I thought well most of my interests, and the physics side an biology, which I'm pretty ignorant about, and there some ideas on their side, not just the cosmology but ideas and building experiments which might detect the Collapse of away function and one idea to look at those Einstein com. And sites you have a colleague that That point is who I knew about and who had these ideas of how to use. Those Einstein condensate to detect grab station waves and thus also vary Another mainstream way of looking at it, but a very clever idea and
the boys Einstein candidates, because this so quantum mechanical their so called Aromas virtual absolute zero and they can keep external disturbances from causing. Problems and you can manipulate them in ways to make them in two places at once. People have done this kind of thing. It might well be a good way of testing me when the shredding, your cat thing, everyone, whether state reduction for the collapse of way function. Is a phenomenon which is of a kind which I hope might be like gravitation effect and in that case? If it is, then that would be relevant to the consciousness problem. So all these things I together in various ways- and so the hope was that these things which are in our could be supported, and I thought it was important because, as always, the danger,
such an institute being regarded as flaky but doing weird things? Who cares so the porn point from my perspective, is that they should be things which can be an Either now immediately tested experimentally, always a few years, so the things which are really you'd get you home. You can get an test them see by the right or not. So this would be a protection against thinking where these these crazy ideas are being pursued. They have to be ideal which capable of tests and have a reasonable chance of showing evidence in favour in their favour against, in whichever would be interesting and important. So from the outside. Looking intimate so fascinating to watch intellectuals, as you said yourself that are bound, these ideas around that are possible, but are not mainstream It seems to me that it's a precarious, so
tightrope walk like you, dont want to say anything ridiculous. That's not true! Where you would I have to say something that seems to be ridiculous, but turns out to be in fact accurate. Provable. Yes, as this dance, I absolutely agree, is absolutely right and of course, you gotta play with ideas but you're on the southern edge of what we know otherwise, wise you stuck with what we know these things will simply the child on the all routes and and you need to be able to break break free of those from time to time. And in a way which is too crazy to be and see whether there is truth in these ideas are not because, inclination that people have to go towards whew or towards crazy ideas. It is important for the scepticism right and is important for the scrutiny. Yes, oh absolutely so, is real. Was real danger in that ledge? I agree. Will you see this is strange kind of problem easy because with these observations, I'm not
Other hawking points which I described earlier ones about black calculations and My armenian colleague and I had written copper papers on this and we have got a response at all and the polish people and they written papers to them, accepted by respectable journals and Chris have asked me what kind of response you got nine zero, what about you? How about what response you Vieira? So this is kind of spooky you see, we ve got these things out there in the literature, refereed accepted publications and instead of me in saying this is allowed a nonsense. Look. It doesn't make any sense for this reason- and this disagrees with this observation and so on- that was fine, If I see that I might be unhappy with it, but it got. Somebody can you say I say what's wrong, something is modifying here that doesn't explain. Probably that's what's needed
yes, that you your rights time, they ve this idea, things come from criticisms and have absolutely no intention whatsoever. They do these papers, they hope fine spooked Why do you think there's no attention paid? I don't know I don't really know and then one of the things is so much information and that people done it. Time. They ve run projects, and then I want to pay attention so I dont think that can be a complete explanation. Maybe it's part of it. The sheer volume of papers that our published it's gotta be impossible to keep up with. Are, I think, that's and they may be say, well being they I'm guy and I may be. I did good things in the past, but maybe have gone a bit off the rails, but I think that in about colleagues, it's not just meet right in this respect. The people who work on these things too, so
think that can be a complete explanation. Maybe it's part of it. The sheer volume of papers that our published it's gotta be impossible to keep up with. All, I think, that's a big part of the trouble cause. There are other ideas which which to me crazy and two other people. Don't look unease disgraces. My ideas, you see, so maybe that's why Longer have more attention paid to them than the ones we examine. I'm curious to know what the hawking points will take off or not. I'm so happy! There's people like you doing this kind of work, and then someone condensing it down to an understandable point that someone making absorb and did just try to get a bit picture of this. Insane reality that we're living well. It is pretty weird subsidies and it seems like the more I talk to people like yourself and the more you study this it doesn't get less weird, it gets more weird. Yes, I think that's right! Well, with more information, it seems to be more fantastic,
there certainly along very weird things, but the point about them is that they gonna make sense. Mathematical sense, they ve got agree with observation, facts and that rules out another really weird ones it does. But even the ones that are observable and do it here to the facts there so fantastic so did the reality of this one of the things its most frustrating of our peoples, inclination to lean towards the wool and I've been. I'll, do it myself and so attractive, but what's front reading about it is that prove, The reality is so technically bizarre, that's true! I agree It's almost like why bother with the womb reality is a very good point in and of itself. You absolutely it is very strange and quantum mechanics in so many ways is, but you see you gotta
I think it is a little bit of a danger of separating the things which are worthy festival. There could be just wrong. Secondly, there things which do require quantum mechanics to be changed in some way, and they, Other ones which are within condom because just weird and that's absolutely true, there are these things which, which I believe have to be true as much as the dive dyed in the wool quantum mechanics people who follow the party lines yeah. I mean these condom entanglements. The fact that things can be whenever it is coming thousand kilometers separated and yet no each other and away. You can't explain that their separate individuals, they behave as if their one, but accordingly entangled state and you can make experiments which reveal
in its recent John Bell, who was an irish theoretical visits, issue really made made this very clear that these things are real manifestations of the peculiarity of quantum mechanics and really out there in the world was a The US hell David said the world is not only queer than you suppose it's queerer than you can suppose. That's right! That's what this is right. Indeed, it is that kind of thing sir. Thank thank for your time, but I really appreciate it. I really appreciate talking you and thank you for all your work and your your can, contribution to our understanding of what we're looking at you hope it helps of it. It helps. I appreciate very much. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you, everyone for into the podcast, and thank you. Sponsors. Thank you to simply save simply ladies and gentlemen, bang in homes security system at a real
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Transcript generated on 2020-03-11.