Michael Shermer is a science writer, historian of science, founder of The Skeptics Society, and Editor in Chief of its magazine Skeptic, which is largely devoted to investigating pseudoscientific and supernatural claims.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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savings at Legalzoom, DOT, com Legalzoom, where life meets legal. I guess today is a professional skeptic. He is an author. Professor, a brilliant man he's been on the get up a guest of the podcast several times. I love him to death. Please give it up for Michael Sherman the Joe Rogan experience could to see what your pile of your writing look at. You got there what moral arc heavens on earth? Okay, you skeptic magazine it's the latest issue. Why is there something rather than nothing we like to tackle the little questions? That's a deep one. You've dealt with this on the show yeah had too much it's that's one that
But you know when you're in traffic, you know what is this. We have someone like Neil or her a shot and Carol are: are Lawrence Krauss talking about this, it's like well, yeah, I'm not a physicist, I'm a social scientist. So for me I I come at it like. What do you mean by this word? Nothing because most of us have this idea of what I mean all up into six. It means this other thing: okay, I think our limited understanding of what they're talking about when I see those guys writing down on legal papers with all that scratchy scratchy crazy. Looking for alien language and mathematics like thank God. Guys are out there when open heavens on earth with imagine yourself dead in a most people go well. I you know, I I see myself in the casket, my friends and family around. Hopefully, there morning, no, you wouldn't see anything. Of course, you're you're dead, it made it to imagine anything. You have to be conscious and alive, so you can't even picture being dead, so you can't picture not existing and it
be the same thing. Imagine there's no universe. Okay, I see blackness, no, there's no blackness! I mean nothing literally, be not just no light, but no no perception of darkness, nothing, not even nothing. I was going through Instagram the other day, and there was this one person who was talking about the purpose of life and when you die what's going to happen and I immediately just started laughing. I'm, like you, don't know if how are you saying this like when you die? What happens it you like when I'm I'm type characters is just kind of a huckster huckster, a lot of spiritual hucksters out there these days there are yes, the in the nineties. We debunked all those psychics talking to the dead that was that that hasn't been too popular in recent years, but that was a big thing. People caught on to that little ear, piece of theater piece or just a cold reading I see a father figure? Is this father grandfather, Father uncle friend of the family? You know you can and
he's saying something about. You know it's okay for you to forgive yourself, okay like well. Where was the will? yeah. He hit his will somewhere. Where is that? Because that's what we want to know is that ring he had where, if you're just big enough. I mean like horoscopes, if you're just vague enough people, oh, my god, it's right all the time. It's always right. That's not even a real horoscope. If you really want to pay attention to, the actual astrology that you they have to know the date. You were when the time you're born it's not just the month of August right. You know it's like they got a no, they don't know our name or even yeah. You know we think about all that stuff. It's all bunk. Is it yeah yeah, Why has it been around so long? Well, because the well, it's called the Barnum effect. Pt Barnum. You just offer some thing for everybody. So if you make a general enough, you know I sent you. Intelligent, wise person that people really enjoy your company and
and you like, going to parties and be with other people, and yet you like the quiet solitude, of a walk on the beach and I'm people going yeah, That is so me. I pretty much described every scenario. You can have your alone, you with people, but it's one of those things where, if you talk to someone who is an actual believer in astrology like they, they are are so convinced I got a friend who's, trying to tell me that he makes all of his decisions based on consulting with his astrologer well reagan- well Nancy Reagan for his travel after he was shot. She got real paranoid about that. Well, so part of the problem is These astrologers and psychics are themselves remembering their hits and forgetting their misses. The confirmation. So I knew a site, or a magician who was working, the psychic friends network it back in the
turn to make a living as a magician doing. Kids parties they all want to have their own Vegas show, but only a few people get that so you to do something on the side, so this guy was doing psychic friends network and he told me all about it. They gave him a book, a three ring binder and here's the kinds of things you should say and p they're calling for love health money, career questions, so you can spend two thousand and thirty minutes at three hundred and ninety five a minute, is going through there. You know, I sense you're in a relationship right now, and one of you is more committed than the other tell me about that. Ten minutes later, you know they're still talking and you're thinking of travel, you're, not happy with your job. There's some financial stress in your life right now and then he told me about stuff like now go get a crystal and then handle. I want you to set it up here on your desk. Go on and on for hours and they charge by the hour and they just they are so one of the problems that psychic friend networks had was people were not paying their phone bills because they come back on eight oh right, just not pay it. So the phone companies crack down on the psychic friends network company going hey.
This is getting out of hand that people aren't paying their bills had a ratchet pack a little bit. That's right. They would do it through the phone. That's interesting yeah. They wouldn't get a credit card from you. They would just stay on the line with you right he told me that when he first started he got like zero dollars and sixty cents on the minute for three hundred and ninety five, that per minute, but then they bumped it up as he got more experience and kept him on the line hunger. They give him bonuses. Now you get a dollar per minute. How is that not illegal he's, not even a psychic shouldn't you have to like. If you want to be a doctor, you have to go. When you got a, you know, go to medical school, we gotta get a degree. I shouldn't have interesting history there, because in New York City, for example, it was difficult, outlaw like the three card, Monte guys on the sidewalk with the cardboard, because it's just kind of a game. But now it would be illegal to sell fraudulent stocks or something like that or so
a product that advertised as a health product when it's not, but if say in that case, it's under food rather than drugs or or say no health products like vitamins are under different standards than say medical drugs. A psychic is more like an entertainer. So this is for entertainment purposes only so we can do whatever we want, as opposed to a medical doctor. That's dispensing advice, so so I've got that in Munich. Maybe doctors about example, me Bush's said engineer, but the point is like: if you're gonna work as a psychic, like on a psychic network. If you have a business of selling psychics yeah like you should be able to, you have to exhibit some sort of psychic something yeah. Well, they can't you know under controlled conditions. They always fail. There's nothing! That's ever been done. What about the something thing that I've ever read that statistic: the more people can recognize that people are staring at them. Yeah like when they're looking at you from
worship well, it's not been. It's not been consistently replicated says a possible some people with a certain sensitivity can detect we okay. So one explanation, the skeptics explanation is that if I'm gonna say a Starbucks or something, and I kind of have a sense that people are talking about, the mirror may be looking at me and- and I look and that catches somebody's eye and they turned to me- and I think, oh, that person looking at me, or vice versa, I'm looking at them and then they send something or whatever said there could be some element of chance to that. Now um, the guy that does this Rupert Sheldrake um. You know he believes that it's actually some kind of like a psychic power through the medium like when I'm looking at you something's coming out of my eyes and tickling your neck. So that's is more fake resident, Marcy, Norfolk residents. Now Richard Wiseman, a british psych experimental psychologist, he's tried to
replicate that and he always fails and then this other woman Maryland Schlitt. She also tried to replicate it and she was able to replicate some of it, so there may be experimenter bias, it's not clear if it's the skeptics that are biased or the believers that are biased, but in that case It's it's best to just say you know, we don't know it so the default position. The null hypothesis is that it's not true tell you prove otherwise and that's a that's a difficult one to prove now, if they say play. If I say well, why is the effect so subtle? Why can't you go to Vegas and become a millionaire gambling or play the stock market? You know we know. Traders just need a tiny in a one point point one percent advantage over the other traders, whatever you mean in terms of just yeah, so if the psychic abilities are very broad term right, it's almost like saying drugs because, like are certain,
drugs to put you to sleep in certain drugs that make you hyper they're, very different effects, so saying psychic ability, like maybe of the ability to see, if someone's looking at you, we don't have the ability to pick the lottery right up to the hard part in testing. Psychics is depend down. What is actually are you saying you could do right and that that's where it gets pretty fuzzy, so these like, why is it legal for the phones like is because it is that you can't pin him down its brevity says: look I'm just giving relationship advice. Why is that illegal? If I say like that, tony Robbins Netflix documentary, I'm not your guru, which is basically I am your curfew. He has that moment in this huge auditorium is like three thousand people there, and I guess this woman up on stage and she's got relationship problems. He says: do you have your phone feels yeah, take out your phone and call him right now and she he talks or through dump and this guy on stage on the phone and he's at work or something he's like what and then she he's up and everybody's happy that she did this now. Is that a good thing or bad thing?
I have no idea it's great for show business, but would have you know so will fuck I mean that seems crazy like how do you know what kind of relationship they really have? Not somebody that I talked to both of them right? Wouldn't you somebody that I I brought this up at it at an event. Recently, a party and somebody said all, I know the backstory his staff had been working the audience and they they knew all about her in the relationship and it was about to go sour anyway, so we brought her up. Okay, ok! So this is the thing with you see the psychics on tv. There's a lot of stuff: you don't they work the audience. They know people fill out like the psych. The faith they fail out prayer cards yeah they put their name and address and their ailment. And then you know the faith healers, a little ear bud in there and they're listening to the person in the back reading. Okay, here's the person they have glaucoma or whatever and you hear him calling this out. So
so there's a lot of that that we don't see put did Anthony Robbins is not claiming any kind of psychic ability. He last trip, let's just trying to provide positive pass for improving your life and, if you're, in a bad relationship. That would be a positive path get out of that relationship and they just like move forward with the emotion and power and love and fucking, probably girl, karate kick and get everybody pumped up and jump around Little Bobby Brown headphones on you know it's like, but he's he's a showman too yeah. That's right! So this, but but my point is that the psyche could say the same thing. Look I'm yeah duration at in honor of the. But he's not. I mean it's weird: to put him in the category right because he's just trying to get people excited he I think he does some good. I really do 'cause. He did me some good. When I was twenty one years old, I used to listen to his. I think it was unlimited power. I think that was the name of the book,
listen to it. On audio cassette by the pool is shitty apartment that I was living when I was trying to be a stand up comedian and it helped me he had some really good advice in terms of setting goals and in terms of like the way, you approach things and look at things. But I agree all that any of these self help books, Jocko's books or Amy Alkon, there's a lot of stuff that very similar to what Tony Robbins issues and okay it makes sense that goals and beam, they make positive, maybe they're a little bit on the side of over optimism. So you can push through the failures, but don't be blind because maybe it's certain times a cut and run and change course in your life. Something like that. The the hard part is getting getting is studying that which, which you know, experimentally, which are the best techniques versus others and there's a guy wrote a book called sham. Sh am self help actualization movement and he was the head book guy for Rodale press that publishes these self help books
and so his takeaway on in this book was that the number one predictor of people who will buy self up books are people who already bought self help books. And they continue buying them. So, if you say, does it work? Well, it works. If you work it sort of consistently like you, gotta, listen to the tapes like every weekend or every low moment is not like taking the pill in your cancer is gone. You have to kind of keep practicing it as as as a lifestyle change for it to work, yeah, that's! So what do you mean by work like so Tony goes into operation and they get a bump. This is an example in this book to get a bump in sales, so they get the salesman almost they they hit the phones on Monday morning it within two weeks. There there let the sales are kind of back to where they were so you get that set the gonna, bring the self help guy back in every month or so to keep them super motivated. Well. You got to give him some sort of incentive to stay state. Pumped right I mean some
financial incentive like it's one of those old school phrases. Asian is like bathing. It works, but you have to do it regularly in order for it to be effective. I, like that yeah mean baiting works, but it does me like hey two months later, a small it should it works. Yeah daily yeah, you have to do a lot of the time or it's like say why it. Why can't the NFL teams play tell the whole game like the last two minutes, because it's so exciting the two minute drill, because they can't do it physically yeah, keep that up yeah yeah! Well, I think you could fit we keep up that enthusiasm that Anthony Robbins provides, but you have to be either You have to have some of an office environment. That is it incredibly enthusiastic to the point where you guys have engineered this environment where everybody's pumped up, but that's going to be at, I that doesn't leave a whole lot of room for the individual to be themselves. I feel like that would be terrible a place like that, where everywhere he goes,
motivational. Sayings and people are, you know, chanting things in the hall way and everybody just gotta energy at ten minutes ago. No, that's that's! What a guy like in the robins will provide you for with a short burst yeah. We just hope that some of sticks right. Well. This is an Amy Alcott Book, Unf Ology, it's great, but she calls small, wins Windsor, whoever calls them small wins like make your bed in the morning or shave or whatever or like tacos little twitter post at four hundred and thirty am yeah. Now I'm never getting up at four hundred and thirty, but when I get up at six hundred and thirty will occasionally like like this morning for the morning, ride that leaves at seven hundred am again by five hundred and thirty. So I'm not happy getting up at five hundred and thirty, but I think ok, Chaco has been up an hour he's already worked out already done, work it out. Okay, I can't really complain. Come I'm sure ridiculous that that that's kind of a little thing this is Jordan's a turn. Peterson's point. Another of the you know make it your life in order. What is he talking about? Just stand up straight, make your bed or clean your room. It puts talking time he's talking about
little wins like if you can do that, then the next thing that's a little harder comes a little easier so those things that are in the background, if you know that your your life is a master cars filled with fast food wrappers, your you know, your you've got that thing that you haven't taken care of in the back your head. That will that's going to disrupt it's going to be flowing in your thoughts. For the most part, it will be a distraction right. So those little things apparently do matter. There's a theory of crime called the broken windows theory that is favored by criminologists to explain the decline the crime decline in the nineties. What happened in New York City I started cleaning up the graffiti, they started catching the turnstile jumpers. They started cleaning up the streets, they started. You know boarding up windows, there's no broken windows or replacing the windows. The theory is
that. If there's a signal in society that no one's paying attention, there is no law and order here there are no rules or norms. Do whatever the fuck. You want that you're going to get more crime. If you send the signal through, all things like we're, not gonna allow graffiti on this wall anymore, and no more turnstile jumpers in the subways and sign in when when that happened in there was a trickle down effect and then crime decline. So that's the most popular theory for that, and I think there's something to that. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense and what they did with New York City is really kind of fantastic. If you, if you go back to when I was a kid and I traveled to can the first time time I saw times square. I guess it was probably like eighteen or nineteen. I was like look at this fucking crazy places like this is mad you know, you see it in movies and it's just always this horrific scene it's always peep shows and hookers and pimps and thugs and drug
dealers, and you go there now, but it's like a mall threw up. You know it's! It's like a giant neon mall of America, Times Square. If you took a person, if you grab a guy from like one thousand nine hundred and eighty eight and you put in a time machine, said: hey man, I'm going to bring you thirty years in the future and you're going see New York, the the way. It looks then, like what do you expect? Like? Oh my god, it's going to be like, like blade other people going to be shooting people and selling body parts, and now you get there, it's like Guy Fiere breeze, restaurant and huge gigantic lcd screens and there's some people that would long for the old days the dirty seediness Lenny Bruce talked about. You know he lived there. It's like I mean well. That has a certain charm. I guess you're going into the night clubs or whatever, but the surrounding daytime neighborhood or something this is it where you want it. You rather live in the vomited mall. Well, I'm not crazy about that either. There's
why cities have certain restrictions on those kinds of stories coming, but in a crappy neighbor, like you know, downtown old town. Pasadena now is kind of a hip place to go yeah, but in the seventies, when I mean I went to the ice House B, you know back in the day. In the seventies, justice is a is a spectator and that, but it was terror, pull down there and wasn't really oh yeah. It was a dump. I mean there was Pasadena or Terrable yeah. It was horrible. The word was, according to my friend Bob Fisher, who owns the ice house. He said that was was in the early days of Hollywood. The producers would all by homes in Pasadena, they have these beautiful old estates in Pasadena, but the star Ours would all live in the Hollywood hills, so they would all be just boozing it up and partying down in the Hollywood hills and the producers like. Let those crazy animals will have added in the hills were going to back out a little bit and they establish that community out there in Pasadena right right.
So to turn it around like one of the key things Amal can do is get in what they call an anchor store, something like a sack Fifth Ave, somebody, that's really respectable big, and then you can call the other guys go. Look. We got sex Fifth ave, so you have sex with Ave and then I can be next to him and then it starts going and then little by little, each of them cleans up their neighborhood a little bit more pretty soon you end up with old town Pasadena now. Well, I was telling you guys before I had an issue today where my credit card got robbed and you know whatever credit card fraud. Someone got a hold of my number, which is really that's the one thing that people worry about the most about shopping online right, but I guess that could kind of happen everywhere, but you gotta think that if there's anything that has changed malls more than anything, it's gotta be the ability to just top online on your phone like Amazon, that the fact that they figured that out
yeah. I remember when Amazon came out and it was just a bookstore I was like who the fuck is going to buy books online. You could just go to the bookstore. This is ridiculous. Stupid business mean the guy has more money than any human on the planet. It's right, yeah and poor bastards getting divorced too. I heard last night that there's a rule in Welsh Washington, everything that you make as a couple. We have to split when you go for twenty five years. Oh California, California law is yes. Fifty fifty will long term marriage is twenty years or ten years or more, it's fifty fifty, and that includes downstream income. You know from anything you did that you're still getting paid for say. Ten years ago you wrote a book or whatever well mrs- is- is getting paid, there is one hundred plus billion one dollar, thirty seven, they said, now, so she's going to get half of that Republican at because it's a lot of stock. They said they're going to have to just be stay friends, so they better suit from she should be super nice to him.
Even if you only give her one slash four and she's like rolling. I got wrong the richest people the world now after these bookstores went out business, there's some irony that Amazon now wants to start opening physical, brick and mortar stores. This kind of ironic, but it does make sense, though, be is there are some brick and mortar stores, and I think that guys a conqueror. I think he just wants to take over everything. Well, why else would he buy whole foods? And I was like oh, the supermarket business. I can fuck this up too well, automate if you could maybe get order whole foods delivered to your house. I think the internet that's available yet, but I think it is right. Yes, I said now most grocery stores, even like all the routes have home delivery with a two hour to compete with Amazon Prime yeah wow, and if they don't do that, you can just order online and pick it up and bring it to you. I went to put billions the other day and they had a bunch of delivery trucks parked in the parking lot. I was like look at this. I think of these cool delivery. Trucks have to
that one rate, though you can walk in there's no cash years. They just trust that everyone's, not stealing, and I think they just comfortable with a certain amount of theft, all the while yeah that's interesting. What about live? Camera everywhere too. You know, but it's um. The online purchasing like that has got to put that must be putting the most. It's far is like the most impact on stores, brick and mortar stores is like the ability to purchase online is gonna, be devastating for them right totally and up in Santa Barbara, where I live now, just riding up state street this morning at the end of the ride. You know it's like the third, maybe one slash four of the stores are closed out of business empty and you state Street Santa Barbara. This was like that happened in place to be, and I and the real estate friend of Mine says: oh well, let's see that story there. That's you know twenty two thousand dollars a month to least whoa okay, so you have to you, have to have ah retail outlet, that's really turning over the customers and there's a lot that just can't do that. You can't have an antique store. That's going to do that
A little nick next store. Santa Barbara is one of my favorite places, and it's it's really interesting, because it's it's small area like I only it there's a hundred and fifty thousand people lesson that about ninety thousand visit mon, zero included with mine as he does it? Delito delete is like another, thirty thousand or so below that you have carpenter yeah, that's like another, twenty thousand or so so yeah, it's it is because of the phone. So that's why you get the right spot mount, but it's also, I feel like it needs to be that close to LOS Angeles yeah, you get a little bit a trickle. I can sit down there of seventy five miles from my house to your studio here in my office and out to dinner for skeptic magazine. That's a hundred and five miles, so it's doable yeah yeah, But it's it's. I think that human beings, when they're living in these gigantic communities, whether it's LOS Angeles or New York, or something like that there's.
Just a certain amount of people, become less valuable you know, there's just too many of them and you you. You who's. That sort of appreciation for people and there's like attention around. Like you don't mind: if a few people drop off yeah there's a balance in size, my wife's from own Germany, which is about one million people- and that's that's about as big as you want to get it's big enough city. There's lots of actually could do all sorts of things. Ah, but it's not you know six million or ten million, which is just like L, a it's just too many
you ever seen and studied as they did with a set up a camera on one end of the street and came on the other end of the street and the time to people walking through an in those in the the the the footage of those people walking through. They were able to determine by how fast these people walked. They got an average of the which was really accurate of how many people lived in the city, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah scale. Yes, yeah. There's that book that physicist West Jeff G E, o, F, F Wes, I think, is his name, wrote that book and and the big the city, the more efficient and faster things become yeah. Looting. Vote dialogue, the way people communicate talk, a little senators, one minute faster and he he had us for Urmila, showing how many restaurants per one hundred thousand of gas stations per one hundred thousand you'll get a cz. You scale up. You don't need as many restaurants and gas stations as populations increase, because there's more efficiency in the flow of traffic in people,
throughout the city, whereas smaller towns or less efficient, that that was the theory, but just fascinating that human beings, just because of all of these other human beings around them. They change the way they walk. They walk faster. They talk faster this right here, yes, Kate, universal laws of life and death in organism, cities and companies right now. Are you really like CO, Winky, dinky yeah? That's that's I mean you feel it. You know when I lived in boulder for a short amount of time, one of things you know boulder, smallest. Well, I think it's one hundred thousand people when I came back here. The first thing I realize is how fast everyone's drunk right. Everyone's just cutting everybody off and zooming ahead and people are really in a rush everywhere. They go, and that has to be in some way shape perform. It has to be influenced by all the other people around them in their energy right. What is that right,
do you think that is though well first of all, it's all unconscious? I think it's it's just mostly. The kind of overall pay should get that pushes everybody along we're slows them down. I just started this book called rule makers and rule breakers. It's a by a woman who is a cultural psychologist. Sorry forget her name. Look at its rule makers. Rule breakers, so you talked about tight cultures. Version is insanely fast, is a there yeah Michelle get yourself and yet so she talked about tight verses, loose cultures. So, like again, my wife from Germany, it's a tighter culture that the people are more likely to obey norms and rules and there's a little more uncomfortable ness in violating California were a little loosey goosey about rules and and so I was giving me a hard time about my idea of traffic laws is: I'll just do whatever you know. I feel like pretty much if, as long as it's safe,
I kind of know you know I'm driving up the one hundred and one if I stay at seventy, nine or below I'm fine and she's like, but it's been learning sixty five yeah. So what I know, cops park. I know everybody else is going and left turn into our street is a is a left arrow. So, of course my wife she's just like well, we gotta wait, but it's midnight I'm just going to go. You can't go like yeah this califf I am going no one here this nowhere yeah. So that's a tight culture versus lose culture, so I guess she's going to talk about how norms that affect laws and how then people change their behavior you're, not even aware you're doing this kind of unconsciously absorbing the cultures. But what do you think I mean there, but there's a difference between West Coast, tight culture like la a little or large groups. Rather,
east coast. Large groups. Do you think that's influenced by whether it's one of things that I've been thinking about a lot? The the aggression of east coasters is very different in the aggression of west coasters, and I always wonder it's like how much of that is because they have to deal with shit weather for five months out of the year. It could be that I don't know lots of immigrants as well like because, like my parents, my grandparents were immigrants they all came over from England and Ireland and ITALY and they were all savages they're. All people that were going to get on a boat and cross the ocean right. You know, there's aggressive people like I'm getting out of here, fuck you and then the landlord else higher. Is your higher risk taker? Yes, yes yeah! Yes, it's not IRAN, the population that came to America, nor with Australia. You know you send all these converts son picks there. It's it's not gonna, be a typical gene pool there yeah. But meanwhile, how good did that? Those the those is the nicest well same ever well same thing,
zero here after World WAR, one world war, two all these are Bella, because people, but there this is in our national character. Now they are the nicest people in the world it want to fight anybody yeah. That is one generation right right. More than that, I mean they have massive war guilt and and is guilt I mean they are all raised and in taking tons of classes in school about what happened. Why we're never going to do this again? Here's what we did you know: there's still paying Israel reparations for that. There are these little stumbling stones that are these sort of brass square cubes in it all over Germany of the name and year that the person was murdered. These are all Jews in front of the house where they used to live there all over the place. Yeah. I have a picture of him and the moral arc here. I'll show you it's. It's really dramatic it's when stand, you literally stumble across them. I mean they're, just there in the street. You might, if you go
stumbling stones. You can see that they're better in four color. Another interesting thing about Germany's. They won't let Scientology they're, sensitive about cults and cult. Behavior is right. Well, there's another reason for that, and that is the pictures now in Germany. Most people don't know this. There's religious Erin is James, got in there yeah there. They also that's a deal so they're actually above ground. Yes, so you just walking along and- and you look down some of them. Those are not the not like that right. They don't like little bricks on the grand there like that you just water in the ground, yeah yeah on the ground. So it's a person, slash and and there in front of the house where they used to live the date that they were departed in the date that they were murdered and where they were murdered, Auschwitz or Treblinka, my donik, and so on. Yeah there you go so it's pretty moving it's it's. It's kind of a reminder. This is what we did and we we're not gonna. Do this again, remember
so that's that's changing norms. How does this happen? Really? It's? You can do it through the law from the top down, but really it's more culture from the bottom up you're saying that there's another reason, besides that, besides the holocaust that they're sensitive to Scientology oh yeah, because in Germany they have a religious withholding tax, so when you get your first job, they do holding for your religion and they give a percentage of your paycheck to your religion, the religion. You are born into baptized, whatever it's mostly catholic and protestant, but others want to get in on that, because this came out of me and he can make some money doing this as a religion. The humanists of Germany get a little piece of this action is considered a religion so Scientology when they saw that they were both. Okay, free government, money, tax money and the Germans know you're, not a real religion. Can you not get in on this and yeah it? So it again when, when my why
came here before she came here, she quit church and you literally have to go down to the courthouse, fill out a form and say I I'm leaving the church. Please don't take my money anymore out out of my paycheck, so you have to opt out. You will be giving money to your religion unless you fill out the form and wow and in this case is kind of a funny story. They go ok, so just make sure you know. Now, if you sign this, you can't get married in the catholic church. You can get buried in catholic church. You can't go to the ceremony and so on you're done, then she goes yep. That's the way. I and she went down there with her four horsemen T said: Dawkins Dennett, Harrison, Hitchens, they're like who's gooses anyway, so they set up. But now. Okay, the moment you signed it starts effective today, but there's a three month lag for us to not take the money out of your paycheck. What's my wife is like yeah like wait, a minute it when a business in a bay is this: when a contract ends at hands for both parties to go out at night, this is gonna, steal money for three months for months, yeah what a weird
thing that you have to opt out like that that it has to be so definitive that you have to sign- and papers and go someplace. What fuck in shady law. It is it's no good. I know that's gotta change, so a lot of us are trying to talk people into opting out quit church. Well, it is amazing that in this country I would like to know the number is if the churches in this country had to pay taxes mean clearly specially when you look at the televangelist that are driving rolls royces and flying around in private jets. There's there's profit is extreme amount of profit and it's discretionary income. They can do whatever they want with it and you're you're. Dealing with massive massive sums of money and they don't contribute. These people are clearly personally benefiting from the contributions of these people and then they don't pay taxes on it and in the case of like ministers who live in a church owned home, they don't have to pay property tax. You know, there's a lot of hidden benefits there. It's dirty
yeah. It is dirty. It's amazing that it's still here I mean, especially when you deal with something like Scientology. When you know the guy who wrote it the front gate. Thank you. This is not some ancient attacks that were handed down from afar yeah. This is you know the guy and the guy was a terrible writer yeah I mean he was a terrible science fiction. Author. He just wrote every thing he wrote was a first draft. Just to spoon gone, I mean it's just most nonsensical nonsense writing and yet they don't have to pay taxes 'cause. It's considered a legitimate religion, Hurless Harlan Ellison. The great science fiction writer died this year told me the story of what the famous story where L Ron Hubbard allegedly said you know, I'm gonna go start a religion. He said it was it's real. It's a true story. They were, but but it was just a bunch of science fiction writers. Sitting around like this chatting and Compl meaning about how poorly paid they are. They have to crank out by the word. You know any word kind of thing and somebody said you know we should just start a religion and shut up like that and I'll run
because yeah you know that's a good idea. I think I think I might do that and then he went out and wrote DIA and that became the founding document of TEL Aviv. Did you watch the the HBO series on it? The the documentary right yeah, the a going clear, yeah, unbelievable, it's the best documentary on and course of seeing all the is show she's got big guts to. Go after I don't know if, if got got good lawyers or AE has good lawyers or whatever, maybe date, stop suing people I don't I think the climate has shifted and I think people for. First of all, for the longest time all we thought of when you thought about Scientology thought about positive thinking and John Travolta and Tom cruise they're all super positive. You know when they're getting things done and there's auditing and they're really taking
care of their mind and you know I'm thinking clearly and eliminating all the negative influences. But then, once ah there's a bunch of factors, I think, but once the internet opened up these the doctrines and you got a chance to read it- and people got a chance to mock, and and you know South Park did that whole series on it with a this is what they actually believe in you see like one South Park that everybody was like holy shit. Wait if it is that real and then people started googling it and then looking into it, and then it started to unravel slowly. But surely people started leave in the church. Lawrence Wright wrote the book. All these things are happening, and now Lee is coming in and was you know? I know her, but I mean I'm friends with Kevin James from the king and queen, so I've known Leah for twenty plus years and when I first met her. She was just like this hard ass beautif a woman who's just like driven and like she's a scientologist like get the fuck out of our way. You know it was like that is just like super active and just get
things done and just being productive. I that's what you thought about when you thought about Scientology, but now you think about it is like nonsense, and foolish and once going clear air, and you got to see the L Ron, Hubbard and listen to him talk and you you see the cap this outfit he had on with the medals that he gave himself like what who would buy right, it's so dumb. It's just it's amazing that it it's so effective and so financially successful yeah. I think their membership rolls are pretty low, but their property holdings. I think priest, intensive yeah, I mean they're. The second biggest real estate owner in LOS Angeles, is that right, yeah wow, least they were there's some japanese folks, number number one, and then it was number two with Scientology. Maybe that's not true, might be. Ah oil barons now
well back in the nineties when the internet first got cranked up. We were doing issue articles on science. Today is when some of these Ex members started posting the secret doctrine, this a new story and telling clear you know it at level, eight or whatever. When you find out the the the the inside story and they got rated, I mean The scientologists went to court to court to judges and said this is copyrighted material and it's like what what your religion? How can you copyright religious well and they somehow got around that. I mean this would be like the catholic Church not telling you about Jesus and the resurrection until level eight after you paid one hundred thousand dollars or something like that? It's it's insane amazing. What's amazing is that the IRS caved in turn believe when that happened. I remember when that happened, that, oh, my god, I don't want to fuck with these guys. I mean they beat the I'm a nobody. Am I going to defend myself, but maybe they'd stop suing people, maybe they're not going after L, L, a realist, here goes portfolio properties reported at four hundred million
hours in Hollywood alone, paid for in cash, no less the church of Scientology is under probably a formidable player in the real estate game. That's what you got, but they have some beautiful properties, yeah. It's just really amazing. It's amazing. So you know my my friends or they're going to go out of business anytime soon it's like I don't know. I think they could have practically no members and still they have all this real estate. Here's the thing. Even no, it's nonsense. Just so is most religion. Let's just be honest, I mean one talk about guys, back from the dead after being burned three days or Adam and Eve being the only two people and they have kids and their kids just started having sex with each other, and that makes all the people in the World or Moses part. In the Red Sea and Jesus walking on water when you're looking at horse everywhere, it's just older horseshit. It's you know whether or not it's based on some real events or some real people. Who knows who knows you know, but it's all nonsense if you ever,
Julia Sweeney's monologue letting go of God. No do you know Julia from Saturday Night I know who she is, I do not know her yeah. She just moved back to L a so you should have run the show she's driven love to so um. She was born and raised Catholic loved being a Catholic, the whole culture and Well that was great and then she started reading Dawkins and me and Harris and so on and then kind of let let go, and then she wrote a monologue very moving, so the model opens she's House in Hollywood and the Mormon boys come by. And she invites the in and they want to tell the story and she's thinking. This is like a Hollywood pitch story, you're going to pitch the story and I'll get back to you later I like it? No no! They wanted to. You know that actually in a press to see if she could join right then and there, while they're on their two year mission, that they do. You know so yeah picture these two eighteen year olds with their white starched shirts in the bicycles and so is Julia start
pressing him a little bit. So so, what's the story here well see um this guy Joseph Smith? He he found these gold plates in his backyard and he translated them from ancient hire a cliff IX into English and with these magic stones and they're going on, and then Jesus came to America and there the good Indians in the bad in the is chili's like. I just want to tell him it don't start with this story. This is a bad pitch story. Even the Scientologists, no don't tell about Xenu until way down the line with it, but then she says reflecting on it. You know if, if I told somebody my Catholic story who never heard of it, it would sound just as wacky yeah. This is virgin and the resurrection what yeah all of its wacky, one hundred percent. I mean it's like we were talking about earlier. When you die. What's going to happen, is you don't know you don't know and the reality is look? Maybe there is an afterlife? Maybe when we stop living something happens and are
essential, energy goes into another dimension, it's possible, but you don't know, look being alive, is so titanically bizarre, just being a human being looking through eyeballs at each other across from this wooden table that was cut down from living organisms that turn into hard surfaces, surfaces, som and then you put in a building and the electricity is rolling through the walls and if you stuck a fork and then you die all over this crazy, the fact that we're in a planet I mean the affected, universe is is at least as far as we can tell infinite. All that stuff is crazy. The idea that your essential energy, he doesn't transfer into some other state. Why not? The whole thing is crazy, but you don't No, that's right! You don't know too, you know. Never you say something that you're not sure of, and you say this is what's going to happen, but you don't really know you're a huckster. That's right, yep, absolutely, no one knows no one! No
that's the conclusion of heavens and earth. I don't know and you don't either I saw a bumper sticker. That said it militant agnostic, I don't know, and you don't either so I mean we have to okay. So here's my bottom line on this, yet I don't know you don't no one knows for sure. I'm happy to wake up in some great place and there's a my friends will be awesome in less. Unless God was mad, you didn't follow the rules, the well that that that's right, Christopher Hitchens called the Christian Heaven Celestial North Korea like, dictator than knows everything. You do and controls everything forever. That's larious, Celestial n Korea, but he doesn't tell you anymore. I told you already. I told you two thousand years ago, this dude wrote it down to pay attention to that. But then not even that right. It's like one guy I might have write it down a long time ago, but then a bunch of other dudes got together and how to revise it. Then, like a new draft and the new draft get to decide, people got to decide what goes in and what doesn't go in and some of the store
is based on right accounts from hundreds of years after Jesus's death, like the Bible, is a wiki. It is like a wig yeah, just the people contributed to over the years, Zahn Hitchens, at a great analogy with when he was dying, wrote a series of essays for Vanity fair. His column. Would you get is a book now. I think it's called mortality like that anyway, one of them was people, think dying is like you're at a party and someone tapped on the shoulder and says you have to leave now and we're The party is going to go on without you, oh no. He goes okay. So let's play this out at the and you get tapped on the shoulder and said you can never leave the party. You have to stay here forever with these people like when it Julius funny lines is the the Mormon boys were telling her is like in Heaven it's going to be great.
Bu you get made your hold again like the blind shall see in the deaf shell here again in the crippled should be holding again, she said. Well, I had uterine cancer, and I had my uterus taken out. Do I get my uterus back and they're like you? Could imagine these eighteen year old, guys, let's say uterus again and they're like yeah, you get your uterus back, because I don't want it back. But if you had a nose job and you liked it do I have to have my old nose back in Heaven. That's a good point, yeah! So and then they said and you get to spend the rest of eternity with your family and she would have no that would not be like I said, maybe they'll be cured, though they'll real as the errors of their way, so they'll be all enlightened. Well, here's the probably so this got a problem of identity. Who are you, and you know, see the the you know that the cc ship? No, the Greek, mandatory Slayer at the C s comes back in- is a hero in the in the preservation up in the museum forever. But the wood writes in a replace the ship in a
the centuries there's no wood left from the original, but it's still cherished is so. I called this charmers Mustang is my first car was a sixty six Ford, Mustang, the classic, and I had every nineteen years of those cars. It was a great car, but I banged it up so much. I replace this and that the you know ever pretty much by the time I sold it as a classic and made it a nice little chat. Take a change on. There was very little of the original left right, but it's the pattern, not the material out, so this whole debate about when you're resurrected in Heaven with Jesus. What's up there? Is it your physical body if it because some Christian sects a yeah, it's like? Okay? How old were you when you're in Heaven thirty? This is the year they came up with because that's the year at age, Jesus was when he was crucified. Okay, but if the children are held, forty, something fifty one you're, fifty one of So, if you're resurrected at thirty year old Joe Rogan, what happened in the last twenty one years of Joe Rogan's body memories, I don't want to go back to that dude dude was done with that. You don't know you're happy
where you are and yes, it doesn't for sure yeah yeah yeah. Well, that means well live life, so what's up there with Jesus or I wouldn't mind having that body thirty body. A little less problem keeps your entries. Yes, yeah. I've been beaten on for twenty one years since that rates that, like when I was thirty, is when I got hard core news jitsu. So that's about twenty years of getting choked, but of course the the Christian was a God makes you whole again. You'll have no injuries, but that's not really part of you. Part of you is urine yes, what I was going to say those, but all those all the stuff that I did that hurt me I also learned from that's right: make you stronger well, not just that like learn the. I think incremental struggle, whether it's like rigorous exercise or learning, something, or I think everything that I do that's difficult makes me a little bit more aware, a little bit better at other things, just a little bit a little bit better
to talk to a little bit easier to deal with a little more friendly and all those things I think I wouldn't give up for anything. I think that's more important than whatever injuries I've got with. I think I wonder how you're going to feel when you're eighty I want, if you feel like that, there's going to be a point of diminishing returns like that I'd rather be stupid. In forty, then, to be enlightened and can't get bed. Very well. My older athletic friends tell me it's about that mid eighties. When things drop off fairly quickly now they could stay pretty fit into their 70s, maybe still racing bike racing at eighty, but eighty five or so things drop off pretty quick. They gotta go to hormone replacement, air or whatever yeah or the ice plant, is or that yeah the young person's blood or something okay. So I deal with you know: there's no breakthrough miracles, yet but again I'm not against any of these things happening. You know when, when someone liked Jeff basals puts one hundred million dollars into an aging company. I hope he successful
You have one hundred million dollars in an aging company. He and Peter Thiel, and the Google guys through calico and a few others have invested many hundreds of millions of dollars into coming like calico, for example. These are things that are trying to their big goal is to defeat aging. Through reengineering cells, and um that that's the sort of philosophical go behind it is we have to defeat aging, so people can live for centuries or forever, to which I say: let's not worry about living five hundred years. Let's, let's worry about like get. The prostate cancer and breast cancer and Alzheimer's and dementia, and so I just a little incremental medical problem. Quality of life, things worse things that take people out young yeah, so that you can live a longer higher quality life, but imagine Michael Shermer at three. Sold at night. This body, if you can keep the body you have now you're moving around great everything's ball. You look really healthy. How smart would you be how much, how much more enlightened with Laura
Weis. Maybe it's the way. I I'm not against that I'm happy to live as long as I possibly can there are there Well, that's not right! It's not natural! It's like okay! What like ok, what's natural their surveys on this people and people's answer is whatever the current average lifespan is so well. Eighty seems about right: okay, fast, forward to your the day before your 80th birthday tomorrow, you're going to go, you want another week, yeah I'll take another week, okay, fast forward, six days How would you like another month I'll take another month? Thank you and, and that would never end so, of course, if you're healthy and happy- and you don't want to off yourself or whatever, because you're super super depressed or something like that. Yes, you're, just gonna want to keep going nothing wrong with that. If we can do that, but what, if you die, and it's way better. What? If you die Diane, you really do you leave your physical body, there's no need for emotions and all of the entanglements of human existence, and you go
this beautiful place of bliss in life and love, and it's just pure love without a body unembodied unhindered. I don't know that be fun. I don't know what is that? What we're here for were here for fun, I'm doing a shitty job. To that we shall going crazy right now we should be in a a little part of you know the way to Vegas at a college, professor, when I was in my christian days who asked me when I was pitching in the christian story. Aces are other golf courses in tennis courts in Heaven, because I, like physical challenges, yeah I want to get out there and push my right like I don't know right yeah and maybe you don't need it, and so he is so. You have to remove that part of humanity that you will with no longer what challenges and to be pushed to better ourselves. They play chess and haven't win right, get win in. Heaven is everybody a winner
everybody gets a gold medal in a Nobel Prize and whatever it is a problem with the things that were attracted to things that we enjoy accomplishments and achievements, and all these things they exist only inside of the civilization inside of this. This round that we've created the significance of them is entirely based on our own, a good agreements that you know it's and when you take the king, it's it's it's important when the ball goes into the net. These we've agreed. You know when someone shoots a three pointer. It's really not that big a deal just throwing a ball I to hold nothing really significant happens, but because we've attached all this meaning to that, then it's something that we really seeing everybody score. The goal went in the park went in the net. Yes, it becomes this giant thing. Yet these have no good answer for this. When you said well, what's heaven like psychics will tell you a bliss and lover, but but what does that mean? It sounds again back to hitch. It sounds boring. You have to stay at this party forever. That sounds boring.
Do. You ever see the guy who took a photo of himself in Heaven. Now you ever saw that he is the Samsung Galaxy phone to take to take a picture of himself in have been further. What clouds is white? It sends him like a smile, and it is one of the funniest photos you're ever gonna find on the internet just because the context of it and it's fun yeah I've reviews an african gentleman who was either on the truth. There is, you know the whole. There is a full of mean magic. He really did go to have any took a picture and we're just mocking him. My only wish we go on him for advice, that's right! So what is it really found? It? You see the picture find the the mocking the names of making fun of them. Afterwards, though, there's no the actual picture kind of find the original Just Google man takes that's what they get. Everyone wants to make the internet. It is so overwhelmingly mocking it's so good, that's good!
that be playing a large part got it. I think this is everyone saying this: is this yeah. Now it was all white. It wasn't like that. It was that she said it was just like if I was that picture of him holding his hand up like that, but it was just the background. Wasn't rainbows and like that you can find a man. I'm I have faith in. You have found the other day. It's a You know that it's just hilarious, that someone would be so confident to put picture online knowing full well, but the world is going to see that picture and start regular guy who sold his soul on Ebay? I forget what he got for it, but and a lot of religious people were offended by this. You can't sell your soul.
Sold your soul to your religion. Did you get a good price? I don't think it was a theatre, bucks or something forget it. When I go to dinner with you, but my concern about all of this obsession with the afterlife. That's on that thing is from his page. It says woke up this morning and saw this had to take a picture. Oh kind of still hasn't. That's not the actual photo, the photo of him and having his. What's? Where is? Is that picture with him that far left far left? That's it! That's it as the photo. That is him. That is the photo went to have. That's it. That's the exact photo he took. I don't know who took the portal he's like hey angel, Do me a solid not a selfie! No is one hand is down, so he's not is not taking with that, and the other hand is up him in Heaven love it. The internet is so good for mocking things, though it's so good. It's one of the best things ever in terms of like
there's so many people that are paying attention, and so many people that are funny that aren't Medians percentages might work in an office somewhere. They've got a little bit of free time and then make a whole reace meme about something, and then everybody runs with it and things just get mocked mercilessly. Remember the the other guy. He was having interview in his kids started, walking in behind him and he's trying to talk about foreign relations in Poland or something in the little kid is back here and then somebody, the wife, rushes in and so anyway, there's a bunch of funny spoof videos on that were so some woman is sitting there talking about nuclear stress, or whatever, and then the kid comes in and she's ironing the shirt and then she diffuses a bomb, and then she cleans up. The socks or whatever it's funny, yeah, there's it's just We we were always all of our information was distributed to us through these very controlled networks. Rather at cb, yes, er, NBC or ABC and everything was very
in dry and very professional in the way people talk, the way information was presented, but now now it's just it's open like as soon as I find out about some something happened in the world. I google it But what is it? What happened? What happened? I google it and then I'll go to twitter and when I twitter. It's all pictures and memes and it's the dude with the question Mark you know that guys, like you, know this like so many means that people will throw up when anything crazy happens in the world it becomes so. Interesting to hear the news and hear commentary on the news from this just Ganttic Mass of humans and it's what's most funny or most interesting or most succinct poignant that rises to the top yeah there's content to entertain, also just high quality content. I mean I'm a cow content producer, I right and so on it, but I am a huge consumer. I got most of the people. I follow on Twitter Post articles. Most of them. I want to read in the course
a couple hours my little window pop up sooner just spread across the of the screen. I want to read all of these articles and I plowed through as many as I can they're pretty much like the panic or vanity fair time, whatever that they're pretty high quality well written articles, the problem is: is content. Producer myself is that the half life of these articles is so short. One of my scientific american columns. You, I put a lot work into it, and then you know like a couple hours later, maybe day later gone, no one's talking about done, yeah. Well, I put it I'm working on that, but it takes me out of the equation like the New York Times. Did that huge New York Times Sunday magazine article on Trump's business going all the way back to the 70s right they spent like a year working on this like ten journalists. This would have been a Pulitzer prize winning piece. This would have done in anybody else. Put trump right. I mean
it is old, get a business contracts, lawsuits and you know all the shady stuff going on and and this got huge media attention for about a day and a half of my two Sunday morning by Tuesday known talk about this anymore. It's like these guys spent a year working on this. I mean what it'd take to get that lawsuit paperwork from the courthouse to PM and they had hundreds of things like that is like like what well it trump in particular there's. So many scandals that I think we've all become numb yeah. There is that too yeah there's so many that you just you get numb to it and it doesn't doesn't affect you you just like huh, We paid up that he paid off alone, whatever yeah. Those are the tiny ones the big ones of the lawsuits, the businesses. You know the the can businesses where he didn't pay. Small companies didn't pay him like Atsumi and then these companies went under like there's a lot of those there's a lot of the unethical business practice That's all in that article yeah
anybody else would be done in by something like that. Any politician except him, it's just amazing, what's also what he represents to those people. It doesn't necessarily have to be what he really is it's what he represents. What he represents is like the american flag and Eagles, and like they have this like really, juvenile sense. Some folks do of what he is and what he represents. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, they they have him in this category that he's going to drain the swamp these liberals are just going to cry and he's going to make America better right. You know, that's just that's! That's the size they're on their on the make America better side, yeah yeah, think it's also people don't have the time to really look into this stuff. Who could fact check these things? It's not just that! It's like If you work eight hours a day and you have children and hobbies and how much time we really paying attention to Trump's ethics, you really really looking into it. I really considering it before you vote. Are you really take?
in the consideration what kind of a person he is and what ripple effect have with any of his policies, take place, I think you're right people vote by their team This? Is my team? Okay, so he the primary! Alright, that's that's! Our guy were sleeping with him, no matter what I think, there's a huge element of that for sure. Yeah there's also people love to argue on line two, as soon as they find someone as opposed to something that they believe in they stick to their guns and they just hold strong. Despite all that me would take so much for people to turn on Trump. The real hardcore trump believers would take. So, Much for them to decide enough is enough. Yeah it'll be interesting to see if members of his own party do something in twenty twenty, probably not doesn't. It seem like with box. That Fox is slowly starting to shift their their coverage. A little bit different sizing him a little bit to push it back a little bit. Shepard Smith is pretty good on that he's always been that way. Yeah yeah he yeah he's always been. Great vanity will probably last ago he's never going. It's never called never going, but they had the same fucking lawyer yeah. That's right. I mean the fact that didn't say
Kennedy right. You know that he had Michael Cohen, was his lawyer like whoa yep, Let me count on the media. Is that there's lots of sources and you just have to just cross check a cz many as you can don't stick on anyone channel. Well, I wish there was a really truly objective service like it would be wonderful if there was people that were dedicated to no editorial slant whatsoever, just one hundred percent in fact, this is how we know the facts, regardless left right, no ideological curve to it at all. When that there's going to be a market yeah he'll, know well sourced they'll say that that's what they do, yeah politicized is pretty good. They they're the fact checking organization that mean they're, not reporting news reporting on politics on the fax said by politicians, yeah, so that's useful and I I think, there's a market competition amongst those people to get more hits yeah. They were fact checking more
than the other guys are fact checking. Although there is two different there was aim accuracy in media and it was another one. I forget the name and one was left. Leaning in one was rightly as I can have one without a wing, yeah, no right wing or left wing yeah. It did that. It seems like that. I mean I'm reading Johnson hates book the this to to who books that I've been reading recently, one of them we discussed on the podcast we did on Monday, but the other one is the card, of the american mind, that's good okay, I'm into that now and it's it's fantastic and if he goes, he covers us quite a bit. Yeah yeah, yeah, have Jonathan's on to something good there with the Heterodox academy, which I'm a member, I'm a professor at Chapman University, and so I was the first member there and our universities pretty centrist. We don't get a lot of these protests and micro aggressions and safe space stuff. It's it's pretty quiet and Jonathan's point is that it's more
sort of EAST Coast, West Coast, public university thing, or maybe Harvard that kind of thing middle of the country. You don't see as much of that but the you know the polarization things got worse. You can see the the polls since, like nineteen ninety to twenty eighteen of it, you know. Yes, people help. How evil are the Democrats, the Republicans and yeah, in a used to be in a tiny little differences, and they, you know they diverge like that now, for the other side is not just wrong, but they're immoral, they are yeah. I yeah. I I do think, could talk radio and television feeds into that. You know if you just or now, social media in the bubble there so, but on the other hand, they get the Heterodox academy. As like two thousand members now professors that said yep, I'm gonna stand up against this censorship. On college campuses, you you were talking to Jonathan about people go Z. You had peed on PETE for many years before the hoax papers, and I think they've had it in, for him
him long before the hoax paper. Well, let's explain that to people, so this could be stand alone. People goes Ian James Lindsay and what is the woman, Ln Pluck rose and she wasn't on the podcast. I didn't get to meet her, but they she's in England, I believe they published a bunch of Ce Papers, like really ridiculous John. You know home what is it? The dog park, one dog, great culture in dog park and re translation of a chapter from mine cop, replacing them with his males with Jews, yeah yeah, I'm in eight the mails yeah, so they did one before they actually PETE and James, as he did one two years ago on the the conceptual it was called and that the is a concept matter is not a real
nothing. You know it's just it's a hilarious paper and the same month that came out it was published in a kind of one slash three tier feminist studies journal. So they got criticized like that. That's not one of the big ones, so you didn't really hoax anything, but the same week that came out there was another paper pub wished on feminist glaciology and I thought someone beat PETE to the hoax. Oh, my god! This is totally and I read it. I thought, without a bullet? Is you know, study glaciers, oh god yeah and your eminence glaciers are very hard and and in a rare act- and you know it's all masculine and yeah anyway, so I can call the university that was affiliated with the lead author. Her- and I said this- is a hoax right come on just before I say anything I don't want to be embarrassed. Is the hoax right? No! No! This is really it's like. I can't tell the difference between the conceptual penis paper, which I know is a looks, PETE, wrote it and the Feminist Glaciology paper. That's the problem. Well, let's explain: what's
going to PETE now, because PETE was brought before Portland State University. They there what what are they charging him with with with faking data fraudulent data, fraudulent research faking data that he didn't go through the Institutional Research Board, which approves experiments that professors want to run like for you could not do Milgram shock experiments where you hook, people up and tell him that you're going to give electric shocks to somebody they wouldn't prove that or or embargoes fake fake jail, where you randomly assigned students to be prisoners or guards, and they end up beating each other, and they would never approve that. So, since that those sort of guerrilla theater experiments of the sixties, the universities have tightened up the kind of research.
You're allowed to do even like the kinds of questions you would ask in a survey they have to approve all of that. So, of course, James and Helen didn't do that, because the first first of all James was the primary director of this thing. He's not affiliated with the university he doesn't have to answer to anybody. Pete was a film theater with it so they're getting him them on that and that he didn't go through the I and and get approval of course, if you're to tell people if, if you gonna fake something, you can't tell him ahead of time, then get a fake. Of course. This is going to get out and then is that the analogy I made ah the other day was in nineteen. Seventy one, a Stanford psychologist named David Rosen Hand, clinical psychologist, sent a bunch of his graduate students in two mental hospitals all over the country. And said just tell him you're feeling kind of blue and that you're kind of hear this inner voice and that it's just you just kind of don't feel right and you need some help. So they did. They
Look at themselves checked in and then from there on out they acted perfectly normal and and then the goal, let's see how long it takes you to get out and so is a study in how mental hospitals treat people who are completely saying so. The title of his famous paper is being sane and in insane places. So, first of all the grad students report it's incredibly so one of them is that sit in and write essays and take notes and and so in the psychiatrist. Evaluation of this paint patient is in a patient, exhibits, excessive writing behavior. This is clearly an example of his erupting it didn't ole. Libidinal impulses from his childhood blah blah blah another one was a painter, so she's doing paintings but landscapes, and so on, oh patient. You can see in the paint is the erupting emotions in the conflicts in her personality, they're, just acting normal right to the point of this hoax.
Is that there's something wrong with our mental institutions? If they can't tell the difference between a sane and insane person, what are they doing? So, of course, the the the the industry got pretty upset about being Hoechst, so rose, and I came back and okay in the next year, I'm going to send in some more let's see if you can find him and he didn't send anybody. Oh so they're like ok, we think this guy's a fake again tell the difference in their own patients and no one was even taking such in a way. This is kind of what PETE and contains, and Helen did is like if they're sending these papers out. If you can't tell them what are you doing in this field? Well, people are for whatever reason people are some people I should say, are drawn to these nonsense, ideas and one of the papers. The dog park paper got it got lauded for its excellent scholarship. You need to get praise to rate it's it's one of the weirder ones that they hoax to make.
It's so obviously preposterous. When you're reading it, what, if not, I think, was the fat body building when they get the one with the other one. I think it won an award system best paper we've ever had on yeah and that really Peten and James and hello there. They are like professional scholars in the grievance studies yeah, because it's if you read those things it's hard to write like that yeah takes it took them a lot of practice to get the jargon in the style down. Well, what do you think is the? What are the options for someone like P, because if he does get fired from the university What what could he possibly do? I mean what Jordan has done is pretty extraordinary, he's essentially left teaching at because of the controversies that he went through, he became famous, he began famous for doing podcasts and writing things and, and then his Youtube videos or their so insightful and and wonderful that people just got drawn to him, then they go to see him speak, live they've, made
into a monster bit by censoring him by made by attacking him they've, essentially turned him into a global international star. That's right! This is the one of the best arguments against censorship. Is it's gonna have the opposite effect you wanted to. If someone is a the quality recording writer says pretty rare, it's pretty rare. I've talked a bit about. This is as well as Brett Minds, Dean and CAS. He suffer the same thing at Evergreen and he's out at least he and his wife Heather got a a payout, so they have a little cushion, but this mod like you know, SAM on Patriot or Dave Rubin, and specially Jordan Peterson, very rare, it's very rare- to be able to make a living as a public intellectual. On your own, most public intellectuals that are not in academia there with a think tank. You know the Cato Institute, the reason magazine or any of these there's left wing right wing. They are all over the board. You know it's possible, they could get jobs there, where you actually the paycheck and those
groups are usually funded by wealthy supporters that just we like the cause- and here is a pile of money not through Patri in uh, it's possible that PETE and say break to do this it's a tough row to hoe. I mean Jordan is very rare. I've watched this through my whole life, and you know, the idea making ten thousand dollars a talk, fifty thousand dollars dollars a talk, hundred thousand dollars attacked. Almost nobody gets that kind of money. Maybe Neil Degrasse Tyson Richard Dawkins, maybe Carl Sagan back in the day, whatever the equivalent of that would have been in the 80s, but that's pretty much it You know there's thousands of scientists. I would love to do that. Like yeah. I want to go that well. They're, not entertaining the thing about Jordan is he's very engaging like he's. In his words, are it's it's not just their wives. It's not just he's a very articulate, there's some
nothing engaging about the style in which he presents these things. It's it's very captivating. It's very charismatic! I agree. You know people discount that or I know a lot of scientists who are kind of jealous of Neil Degrasse Tyson say Bill Nye. So I could do that. No, I doubt that you can. I mean Neil. And bill are really entertaining they're funny they're engaging you can't take your eyes off then there's so much fun to watch. Well, perfect is most people are not like that Sean Carroll's, brilliant he's, really brilliant and I'm glad that he's doing a podcast now and but when listen to him talk and you listen to Neil talk. Neil just has this booming pray. Since right and this sense of drama and energy and entertainment. He knows how to be. He he knows how to deliver it in a way that just catches you it's fun, to listen to yeah. I did a lot united, a public event in Australia and Melbourne area and unfortunately, I went before
for him and maybe that's actually good, I'm a pretty good public speaker. I have a sense of my value as a public speaker, I'm pretty good, but I never seen him. Speak and a- and I did my talk like my it's pretty much like my TED talk, you can watch online, it's pretty entertaining okay, so I get up and I'm done. I get a nice applause, I'm feeling pretty good and then Neil gets up at the stars on like all crap This guy is fucking good and you don't want to follow that. I know I'm so glad I already went and got so much enerji yeah, but he also has that sort of courage, connection with the audience audience captures them and yeah. I could tell afterwards throngs of people around him and yeah, it's it's there and not very many people have that and I don't think it's something you could just learn. I think it's a temperament, you know you're you're, gonna, hone it and refine it, but you can't just sort of naturally be funny and engaging. I think,
personality comes out easy. I think you can certainly improve, but I think you're right. I think so the! U. Whatever personality you have like, he has that kind of engaging fun personality and its its translate very well to doing this public speeches, since I was here a year ago, I saw Jordan's event at in thousand oaks at the Kavli theater there two thousand seats sold out standing room only and it was good. He was like the Neil of Course, but just as engaging wasn't political, a lot of people there in a recognized me and I could see you know these. These are like right wing nuts. These aren't young mailed, angry males. This isn't like this at all, and his message was,
You know pretty straightforward to get your life in order. You know this is the way life is it's hard and he kind of went through his thing and it's like all right. That makes sense and people loved it. Almost no politics in it Dave Ruben tells me he doesn't really get political on stage so that not the motive, and I think you know life is hard enough for most people. That day of the like back to the self help thing it's nice to be reminded here, a few simple things: you could do: yeah it's real life in order, it's like yeah. We have the kind of knew that I'm gonna go back out and do that again. Boys principles are very effective to this, to the very straight for Liz said, but but with a guy like people goes, you know to bring a back that, what what could he do if he does get fired? It's going be very difficult for him to get a job at another university right he's obviously got roots in Portland who lives there. Now it's the whole thing is he's pretty liberal. It's not like he's a closeted conservative and there after him he's only more liberal than me, and I could tell even
years ago that they're to they're going to go after him. I can tell mainly because see so. He puts truth and free speech ahead of political positions. You might say I'm a liberal, and these are my political positions, but more important to me is the truth. Yes, okay! Well, that's no, as Jonathan make points out in his book. Universities are now at this divide between. Are we here for social justice? Are we here for truth and they're having to make a decision in too many of them are going for it? We're here for social justice? Well, then, just be honest about it, because that's not you can't bury it well, not just that. I don't think that's an effective way to prison, so social justice. If you're ignoring the truth, you undermine your message because then it's it's not like it's hidden somewhere. It's not like people can't read into it in see exactly what you said and how you supported certain causes and denied, though the reality of others ray, took the judge. The the Google mammal thing yeah, the Google memo
thing was a gigantic disaster, because I do logically people put on a side and argued- and I heard the CEO of Youtube talk about how damaging it was to women and like what are you talking about like what are you saying like what did he say he's just talking about preferences that are described by tests this is. This is all been peer, reviewed, studied papers on the differences between the preferences of males, versus females? It's not it's not like a value assessment at all, in fact, not only that he put into his paper a page and a half of rec conditions of how to get certain women interested in tack, and perhaps you could recruit when it make it more palatable or exciting to them and not it's not a sexist screen at all. No no online is really good debate with Steve Steven pinker in in a in a feminist scholar at Harvard
and Steve has all the slides up there and he just goes all through all the different things that are in that Google memo. This is before the Google memo. Maybe James Moore got some of that from bankers lecture, but it's it's it's pretty solid stuff. There was nothing in Inflammatory about the debate. This is kind of normal scientific debates. You know here's a study that shows this well, but there's this other study and then they go at it. End of story. We're not saying women are better men, writer that that doesn't happen. Unfortunately, the taken it's out here if I was PETE's bus, here's what I would do that, because a lot of us have written letters and supported PETE and he can kind of see what's about to happen. Let's just drop this whole thing. Let him keep his job, keep my mouth shut, because the This is going to backfire on his big time, like it did with Evergreen State University yeah, exactly or with the Google memes That's what I would do it backfire in the Google memo I mean we realize that they've got a preposterous ideology over there. Now we know that maybe their stock price hasn't gone down.
I don't think it affected them very much in many more people support it. Many more people who it's one of those things where you you're one version of it in that version. Sticks you know it's like you know. This is the the version is he's a sexist. You know the sex is Google memo and then that's all I need the Google was very sexist, very an anti female and that being there's many many people who support the idea that something that was sexist was removed on Google they've made it a safer environment for women right yep, but did they? I don't know what this doesn't seem like they did. It seems like they made it environment. We have to be careful about facts again. It's on a value assessment of women. If women choose to go into the medical fields more women are physicians, more women there's many fields that, like disproportionately attract women, that's not a
the value assessment. That's just people are different. You know I don't I don't want to do with certain people do because I'm different than them. I don't I'm not attracted to those fields. It's fast going to find out why people are attracted and when you see that there's actually there's just actual statistics in terms of what fields men are more attracted to or what feels women are more attracted to now. On the other hand, if there's Reason why women aren't attracted those fields because they get harassed when they go into them. Well, that should be demonised, and that's obviously a bad thing, and that should be addressed yeah. Absolutely that's not what he's talking about now and James Dim is like a very kind saw spoken great he's. A nice guy, he's very introverted is a kind guy and he's on the spectrum somewhere is no way you look at James Moore got tears the patriarchy yeah. No, it isn't a nice guy and they say
to him. If you have any input on these things and feel like you can help, please contribute and he's like. Okay, so he's that's booty is he's a software engineer. Right he's a right. He sat down and written, looked at all the data and compiled it and he's saying well. Actually, it seems like this is the reason why women are more attracted to other jobs, and this is the reason my men are more attracted to these feet. Builds and like sack Cest when he's like. No, no. No, these are the studies. This. But you asked me to do the concern that, if the science doesn't come out, a certain way then people won't be treated equally, is a bad yeah, because then you're going to force the science to be distorted if it doesn't match your political ideology and that's, so whether Trans is natural or have whatever percentage, These are how old you have to be before you get trans surgery in the hormones or whatever that that's a raging debate right now, but under under
line. That debate is like we have to make it come out in a way that trans people are treated equally. No, no, they should be treated equally anyway, anyway, guard lus of what the science says right, but that that that's a problem now not a problem for pet people, a PETE in and Brett like joining a think tank is almost all these think tanks are, are politically affiliated, laughter right. You have to that and therefore you have to kind of told the little line. This is our ideology in this thing, bank and you're, going to write white papers and Op Eds and send him out with our kind of slant the problem with that is well. But what if I disagree with this in this in this here? Well, then you can't work here, something like that. So that's the problem with right, but that is not the only option today. When you see that I mean I know, he's not Jordan and you know there's very few people like Jordan but SAM. There is also able to do the speed is very compelling as well he's doing a lot of public speeches and doing these big big events there's.
More opportunity to do alternative things now than that have ever been before, and I would hope that that becomes available to look. I hope PETE just keeps his job, but if he can't keep his job at Portland State, I would hope that some other avenue some other some their path as possible. Yep it might be. You know you never know, but you know you put a date on the calendar and you tell the world: do they come? Do they pay ten bucks? A ticket? Fifty bucks, a ticket one hundred dollars a ticket? Not many people can fill a three thousand seat auditorium or a five hundred seat out training. I think he could, do is do a lecture series on the grievance studies and have the three of
I am on stage talk about how silly these things where, if they could put that together, as if a yeah show presentation yeah, it really be funny, because there's some hall Leiria subjects covered all the issues of Read which Ursulines Ian and Bogosian we're in here- and we were talking about these things were crying laughing yeah. It was really really funny stuff yeah, that's actually, probably the best path for him is to put give some sort of a public show they should do a book and then have a book a show. So yeah, then maybe even a tv documentary about it. Well, they have somebody's making a document. That's a good start when I was in college, at Pepperdine G, Gordon Liddy and Timothy Leary did a stage show wow they were and they were touring the country doing this yeah it was at UCLA, so I drove down and saw it. It was so entertaining I mean G Gordon, you know he's the G man there with his three piece suit and he's got his gun and Timothy Leary comes out his boat
shoes and his flower shirt, and but they had it kind of scripted. But it was well scripted in a way that seems kind of spontaneous, but it was really funny and education, about how the government works and freedom versus security and rights, and I thought that was brilliant and I think they did. I don't know fifty city tour of that G, Gordon Liddy, was on fear factor. He was oh, I didn't know that interesting. Video hold his hand above a flame. No, he didn't, but we did hang him by his ankh. Tools and slamming into a pool like over and over and over again use. I forget what the stunt was, but I was like Jesus this guys old to be doing this but he did uh some physical challenge ages. I remember thinking like this guy is more fit and more active and most young people, and he was deep into his 60s at the time when we had about fear factory Anything that screwed him up was in the end. The final stunt was a driving stunt and it was at night and unfortunately, his eyes are not that good,
and he just couldn't see well without glasses. So as he was driving the car he slammed into something or something you know what it was, what you got in there now it's all right but here we a chance to talk to him for a few days and hang out with them very interesting guy He has a strong mind: yeah, that's right. He had a talk show back in the nineties. I was on when my first book came out. White people believe weird things and I talk about conspiracies there, and so he he asked me will tell me about conspiracies label. You tell me about conspiracy. You know more than I do about real one, real ones yeah. What is my number one? Beef with conspiracy theories. Is that when you know some of them so preposterous, like whether it's flat earth or what would
What were the really dumb once there's a base on the opposite side of the moon and NASA knows about all the aliens are living in New Mexico, the latter people, the problem with those is they undermine actual conspiracies right when you, when you hear about preposterous things and they they get fall, they'd get categorized as conspiracy. Series, then, when someone says well there's a conspiracy about this- will already tainted idea, because the word conspiracy is connected to nonsense. Right because you're so many nonsense. Conspiracy theories, it's hard to recognize, oh something like Enron. That really did happen. Yeah there is the North Woods papers, there's a bunch of like legitimate, conspiracies you like wow. You know you found about the Gulf of Tonkin They. They really did that yep. That's right, yeah, I'm I'm writing a paper now and why people believe conspiracies, and so I go through the the whole list of all the psychological things, but I am with the whole. Second half is because a lot of them are true and yeah, and there are reasons we should be suspicious yeah I just
of the wiki leaks, Wikileaks or the Panama papers. You know like the Panama papers, there's all these billionaires. Opening the shell corporations keep in there, but they're not paying tax. That's a conspiracy here, yeah hi definition to more people meeting in secret to conspire to benefit themselves that harms the public good or other people. This happens a lot in the US government and corporations. Yeah, there's a reason we should be suspicious. There is, but what is it about people that want to look for a conspiracy in everything even if it's you know that they want to see they want to see the contrails behind jets as evidence of the government's bring things in this guide to control our minds right, so the so the baloney detection tools are not too finely tuned. The problem is: is that we're Tennessee is to look for some global, simple explanation for complex system. So,
Well, we all kind of recognize. Yes, we know corporations cheat and stock traders. Trade with inside information it is that's kinda, small and Monday is not very interesting global domination of the world. You know this is who who's doing that you know. So it's and then becomes like a Dan Brown novel. It's more compelling as a narrative story about how the world works is super simple, there's he's, well guys in London called the Illuminati and calling the shots and they're. You know their control. Bilderberg burgers, the Rockefellers, the child, the Illuminati CFR, new world order? George Soros is doing it he's a part of it totally it's here. He's number thirteen in the Illuminati to so many different competing theories to so the seller. It said the couple criteria, the more people that have to be involved, the less likely it is to be true- and it was Gordon Lady that told me this- that you know it's it's so it was a three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead, can't keep their mouths shut and also,
even though, because he worked in government, most people are pretty incompetent yeah. The idea you could orchestrate a thousand people to- and each of them is going to go out and do this one thing at nine o'clock, Tuesday, and it's all going to come together, just perfect impossible yeah, and he should not. I mean they could in a break into the Watergate hotel rooms to get these papers what's also who is getting into government the first place, as are the the geniuses of the world, the heads of their field or the people that just like decided to get into a job. You know- and this is this- is a a good percentage of the people that are involved in government if those people know as well. These unexceptional folks that are just like uninspired, they're, also there, but did the delivery. Is it day. That's right, that's you know air quotes day. They really have the kind of where, with all to control the whole world, mind control David right, mind, control, psyop, some in this idea that operatives went into the World trade center buildings, both of them to the most tightly controlled and secure buildings in the
and under the pretense of working on the elevators, managed to get into and break through the drywall to get into the main beams to wrap them up in explosive devices. This thermite stuff- and this would you know we know how long it takes to demolish a stadium or a big building. You know that they work they're there for weeks or months, preparing all the explosive devices. Somehow they did. This the World Trade Center building without anyone noticing not to mention all the people that worked on this, they never told their spouse xyz are friends or buddies, or you know what they were doing or they didn't mention it. Anybody, they don't want to go on CNN or sixty minutes ago. I saw something in here's. What happened? Nobody? Well anytime! You have a gigantic catastrophe like that, just a gigantic horrific event. There's so many emotions there's. So Chaos, there's so it's going on that you're going to get a bunch of really wacky eyewitness accounts, because people just aren't good at remembering things when when they're are
extreme duress, just the fact that he things they remember explosions, they see thing is it Martin not necessarily what was really in front of them. This the human memory is one of the most flaw. Odd ways of gathering information right. It's terrible. We have terrible memories right and everything once something happens, then you back up and look for all the sort of pregnant moments leading up to it that otherwise would have been a noticeable like, ah, but the JFK assassin Asian there's a famous story about the umbrella man? Yes, okay, so there it's a clear sunny day Why does he have an umbrella and for decades, going You can see these like examples of how the umbrella today tap into into a rifle and that he shot like that and anyway, some. Filing track this guy down decades later, and he said I was out there protesting Kennedy, the umbrella was a protest, and that stems back to
Neville Chamberlain coming back after meeting with Hitler before Hitler annexed think it was a sudetenland and he came back and said holding his umbrella here I had you know Herr Hitler sign this paper and promised he wouldn't do anything more bad and so the umbrella, name, a symbol of you, know, sort of cage, an into evil people- or you know, what's the word for it, it appeasement. How convoluted do you think going to get that, and I don't know he's out so this what he said I had my umbrella to, because I didn't like what Kennedy was doing with Castro and Cubans. Okay, so in other words, the umbrella, meant nothing in terms of the assassination and this is true so like nine hundred and eleven. Oh there was this little puff of smoke, or somebody found this passport over here. This little thing at all those little things really is just randomness. Well, the other thing is the people
We want to think that the windows blowing out or indicative of some sort of controlled demolition or the buildings caving in at the floor pan- yeah. It pushes the air out yeah. Well, it's there's! Never to controlled demolition that went from the top down either like the way they did it. Prince Tramadol go from the bottom up right, yeah, it's the one that looks crazy is building seven tower seven that one looks crazy. It does, but it burned for like eight hours or something and yeah that wants just slightly fuzzier but explosive experts tell me that It's fully explicable by burning all day. Well also, when you see the images of it collapsing. Well, you don't see. Is the interior structure had collapsed previously and there's video of that, where you were watch the interior cave in and that as this fire was burning because apparently there was obviously I don't know what really what happened. But there was diesel tanks, apparently in the basement, and the diesel
fuel burn incredibly hot in the whole inside of it all the structure had been completely weekend and then, as it collapsed, it just all gave out. It just happened to be a shit design. If I was the guy who owned that building, I would sue everybody I mean. That's that mean he got his money back. I guess because of some insurance money, but that what a terrible design there was. Some issue, with the legal insurance payout to the owner of the World Trade center buildings. Whether this was like what one of enter to live answer one building or to let you know what is it, what it was and what it meant. The difference was between like eight billion in sixteen billion dollar payout or something all day long. How do you get people to get into that? New Building I'd be like fuck, you, I'm not I'm not renting office in this building this building. They blew it up in ninety three. They blew it up again in two thousand and one hey get out of here with this shit, I'm not taking
chance this new ass building? What is the freedom tower? Something because there's a big old bull's eye, yeah yeah yeah haven't done it yet I've been around it, but it's not even that big. Well, I think it's just it's taller than that. It's not! decided it's not as big as the original towers. Right I take it. This is tall. It is that yeah. I think I think so yeah I thought it was shorter. As big as wanted to buy the Dubai ones like a half. A mile right isn't I'm crazy like that, and I don't know how tall is the tallest building it is. I just went to their the one world Trade center leasing page. It says at seventeen thousand one hundred and seventy six feet. One world trade center is the tallest Leed Gold certified building in the West Hemisphere in the center not ever down. This is America. We really ever want number one and we need to go straight to the moon in the solar system yeah. We need to be take elevator right to the moon right outside of space. How is that possible?
They build a building, that's so high that it goes into space one. I I don't think so, because structurally it wouldn't hold went up shape of pyramid. Well, it's like why aren't trees? You know one thousand feet tall, because the material would just collapse and I don't I don't think he could have it strong. It have to be so far Oh, that's right! Japan was going to build that space elevator I'll look at you got Jack with the pop ups. Japan takes tiny first step toward space, elevator yeah you can fuck off, I'm not getting that it would take a few years before I'm willing the climate of that soccer. But the other problem with conspiracy is just get back there for a moment is the problem of anomalies. What do you do with anomalies? This is true, and all science, no theory explains every single thing. That's out there that we want to study, there's always going to be some quirky thing that the main theory here that explains all these things here, it doesn't account for that. What do we do with that? My joke? Is you assign it to a grad student
then figure it out? But what what outsiders mistake is that well. My theory explains this little anomaly. So therefore it should replace this theory, and so people like Neal and Jon Carol Lawrence Krauss Meet Michio Kaku as like to web pages. One is a a link on his web page. If you have a an alternative to physics go to this page, so they go there and it has. Your theory has to explain all of these things over here that our theory currently explains and your whatever your said anomaly is, and of course they can't. So it's not that scientists are dogmatically close minded to the anomalies. It's that we can't explain everything and you don't have. To do anything with that. Just just leave it there, maybe eventually they'll pile up, and it will be a new theory with Einstein's relative.
Eddie okay, there's enough anomalies here, like the orbit of mercury and a few other things, and so we have to modify newtonian physics a little bit. Okay, that happens, but for the most part like and so conspiracies air filled. With these things like the moment, something big happens, you go back and okay, but there was this weird thing here and explain that I don't know we don't have to explain everything. Do you know that? There's a growing movement that I think that the the space is fake space is taken. Now. Is this a different enough letters? Rosal has tax bases, fake hash tag, spaces phase is people that are so stupid. The flatter there's kicked him out. Thank God for real flattered is kicked out. The spaces fake people space is fake. Is there the the my most skeptical. So what would be the upper atmosphere would be the edge it's all bullshit, it's all fake and its tide in some weird way to religion, which is really interesting, because even the flat earth people
there's a tremendous amount of them that are extremely religious and they did talk about the firmament in the Bible bowl in the Bible, and that this is this is what's really going on. Is that they're trying to keep us from the knowledge that God has created this place is a very special place near eighth, and so by pretending that it's round they somehow or another, are controlling us, we're thinking that we're not exceptional and we're not lucky spaces fake they're, using a video from Ryan Gosling's movie just made about in the Armstrong the first man in the moon, yeah be like like this is look like here's proof make everything start making a movie, because the way Made the movie is that's evidence that it's fake, but because he's when it did, I don't know if maybe this person doesn't recognize that as being Ryan Gosling Right, there Mmhm Scott necessary Maybe it's just a troll account. This is how NASA fix everything. This is the video I was talking about guys now. You know it's all a big act
it. You should click on spaces fake though I'm on I'm on the whole and click on it, because there's a bunch of other one, I'm on that thread there's a tremendous amount of people that literally believe that space is not real. Google, a video of how Buzz Aldrin and how he deals with the no moonies that we never went to the moon. There's a video ' as Aldrin punching a guy yeah. I don't see that that guy, I I had dinner with that guy, you did the guy he punched yeah. I was a firm believer that we never went to the moon yeah. You know this would happen. I watch that Fox documentary, the moon, conspiracy, theory. Do we go and I was like Holy 'cause. It was on television, and this was ninety
ninety seven. I remember I went to work. I told everybody you got to see this documentary is crazy. We never went to the moon, and I watched that one and I watched this guys um. What is his name Bart Bart say broke, so I had dinner with him. He absolutely believes that we never went to the moon. One hundred percent believes it. I don't know if he still believes it. I think he's like a. Cab driver something now he was involved in the news or there's no local television or something like that backwards from He released a documentary called the fun. A funny thing happened on the way to the moon and in his documentary. One of the things he did have is really interesting footage of. The lunar module where it looks like their face? taking a shot of them being really far out then, when they remove this cover, the covers from all the windows are were inside the the um, the lunar, not the lunar module. What is the one that the orbiter um? It really looks like they're in low
but- and this is like the main thing pointing to that- like they couldn't get out of low earth orbit Then there was also the fact that they lost all of the Telemetry data, which was the binary. You know the ones and zeros that show the position of the lunar module at every stage. There was a bunch of different things. The fact that no one wanted, especially ah Neil Armstrong, became a recluse, never wanted to talk about it. You go and watch the conference, the press conference. They look very shady. Look like a completely if it'll as Aldrin's, not like that he wants to everybody. He was drunk for a long time, though he was, he was very depressed and had it when became an alcoholic after the moon landing and the ideas that the gin conspiracy circles from talking as them, the ideas that he got over it after awhile need to make a living now talks about com, but Neil Armstrong. Never did. The thing that's compelling is that there was. There were some there's some faking going on. If you look
that gem and was a gemini fifteen Michael Collins, there's an image of Michael Collins when they were testing some of the space. Walking stuff and some of the some of the things that they would do to walk outside a spaceship, they had 'em all strapped up with cables and they're just experimenting with these things. They took that photograph and then black, but the background, probably some overzealous pr agent, and they were like in the pool. Is it right here? So what it is is like so the first one is Clearly he's you know in a studio and they're working on things and just trying to understand how all this stuff works and the second one they took the exact same photo and just reversed it and blacked out the background, and they put just that doesn't mean that they didn't go to the moon. That's just me is it someone got ahold of some photographs and faked it and,
it's way more likely that there was more of that going on then that people didn't actually go to the moon right, yeah yeah, the thing about going to the moon. That's really interesting is if they can go again and they do go again they find all that stuff there you know, then everybody has to go yeah. I guess we were wrong. This stuff is there I mean there's Amazon there that we still monitor that the APOLLO astronauts left there, one nine minus silly monitor we shoot a laser up their house, yes off yeah, but you know a laser, also bounce off the surface of the moon yeah. But I don't think like that, not as precise right right yeah, but the Russians did that too, with a longer hood, one and two, I believe they left solar roof or laser reflectors up there, as well with an unmanned mission. Pan has a video footage. As far as of like last week, yeah dark side of the moon. That's all fake, too,
Well, space is fake, dude, there's no space, of course, the moon's an event. What is the moon of space is fake. How do they explain that The images of what an interesting is the images of the dark side of the moon. Look exactly like even like the landing and the whole set up, looks very similar to the APOLLO missions, and so they would have to either be in Cahoots. Or have worked together, the same sound studio, yeah yeah, they use the old stuff. Yeah look at it. I mean this is the footage god? Damn that looks eerily similar to you saw when the APOLLO astronauts were there. I think it isn't highly possible that some of the some of the practice film footage of I you know on the surface or doing things turned out to be pushed off as actual footage of moon landings. I think there was no television back. Then there was no internet. There was no
VC rs. There was no ability to review things and watch them over again. They projected something onto vision, one time, and that was it so when they released best releases and videos, it's entirely possible that some of those videos that got through we're actually just tests. It's entirely. There was just like the Michael Collins photos There was some fucker going on you're dealing with so many human beings you're dealing with so many people yeah see that estimated five hundred and thirty million people watched Armstrong's televised image and heard his voice described. Okay. What is that? It was broadcasted life like six hours that day, yes yeah, it was actually broadcasted, live on um projection screen. What they did.
As if they didn't get a straight feed they were filming are the of the footage that was on a projection screen. That's how they did it and there's some want to ship. It looks like they fall down and they get pulled back up by wires when they're on the surface of the moon. But again, I think how much of that is how much how much that is actual footage of them being on the moon, and how much of that is just test footage I mean I don't know, I don't know, I'm not sure about that, but I think also uh. I don't know Jack shit about space travel right. I don't know anything about astrophysics. I don't know anything about like what it takes the land on the moon and come back and whether or not and most of the people that talk about don't know that it's a million at myth. Busters did a nice episode and you know, did we say going to the moon and they showed a bunch of little things, for example on the moon with its gravity. When you go something like that into the dust you know, the particles come up in the Ark back down
found in a certain way that would be different than if you're on earth, so that gravity is different, causes the dust to settle differently. There was a bunch of things like that that proofs we we were there well. It's certainly proved that what took place took place in a vacuum yet not yet, and a gravitational pull the same as the moon right. The only you've probably seen the feather in the hammer drum, but you you can do that here. Well, yes, in a vacuum: yes, that's right, yeah, but but a feather in a hammer. Even if it's depends upon what kind of feather it is but FED, and a hammer, even if you just held them here and drop them on the ground, they probably landed a very similar pace. There's a spoof video about that. We never went to the moon a too couple british comedians at that that piece of- is that with a cubic one name, I what's their name tmp key and Peele yeah, so the three of talking- and you know, okay, we're going to take this whole thing and and
and then there troubleshooters she's like well now people are gonna ask well. How did we go to the moon and we're gonna have to have to build a big so we can say well. We went in that big rocket they're like well. How much would it cost to build that big rocket? Well, it would be really expensive. I mean we might as well just go to the moon, and then they start talking about the expenses. Well, we only have to feed three of them if we go to the moon, but if we shoot it as a shoot here in the studio, we have to have catering for everybody to be super expensive. It kind of goes on like this very funny that is funny, but the conspiracy theorists would say: well, they couldn't send someone to the moon, so they had to fake it. That's why they haven't been back. They went from nineteen sixty nine to nineteen, seventy three, so it was six successful missions. Seven attempts APOLLO thirteen being the one that didn't make it it's a it's a fun theory and what happened with me is I got way better at spotting. Bullshit and learning critical making skills and then paying a
all sides. I mean the the real issue with some and like that is if someone could prove definitively beyond a shadow of a doubt that not only is it impossible that no one never went to the moon, absolutely prove it. That would be giant. You mean really would be yep mean it would be a huge story, but can is it even possible to do that? You know the energy I use like with the Wikileaks is there of all those tens of the hundreds of thousands of memos and papers and letters and government documents. There's not one mention anywhere of nine. Eleven is an inside job and we had to allocate these funds to go to this construction company, who was then seen working at the World Trade center. Nothing like that so that to in this case the absence of evidence is evidence of absence, didn't happen, not an inside job and the nine eleven one yeah, and something like that would be true for the moon landing to meet all the
those people that worked on that. Not one of 'em saw anything and wanted to write a book on sixty minutes. The idea would be that there was compartmentalized in that everyone. If you working on the o rings, you don't have access to the people that are working on the thrusters. If you have access to this, you have access to that and there was only a very small group people that controlled everything also one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine is very different environment. In terms of like what you get away with and not going away with what you could say, it's just it was really fun. It was really one, to believe that the fake going to the moon, I spent an inordinate amount of time looking at it, but I completely dropped it. I completely dropped it after I, just I paid attention to what I actually know so, but now you can kind of empathize with those who do believe crazy theories, yeah, but you want to hear dumber one, here's, the dumber one for the law.
This time. Like months, I believed in the thing called rods. Do you know about the Roswell rods little insects this? Well? They would it this guy put out this doc, documentary that there was things flying so fast. We couldn't see them with the naked eye and that they were like jelly fish like creatures that lived amongst us and They had all this video footage of the especially these people that were jumping. They were sky diving into this enormous cave in Mexico and as the sky diving into this cave. You see those things flying back and forth. I was hook line and sinker like. Oh my god, these things around us all the time I was it going outside, and I'm not to spot him like imagine. This is the things that are flying so fast. We can't, we can't see them the only way, true was on camera and then a show called Monster Quest crack the riddle. They show that it's in a video artifact and then, if you
I have really high speed camera. You just see the insect, but if you have low speed standard definition, video cameras, it creates this artifact, as these things pass by very close to the lens at a higher speed it along gates their video signal, and it makes them look like like this jellyfish type thing. But it's really just a video artifact, yeah again, it's a good example of anomalies. You know here's this weird video anomaly. What is it about to say? I don't know you don't know anything about video it. Way easier to say: oh that's, the captured know take a camera put it outside. You will cap amazing right, yeah, that's right! The other aspect with conspiracy theories is cognitive, dissonance that is we want the size of the event to be matched by a 'cause. That's equally of that size. So the analogy uses you know the Holocaust, the worst genocide in human history caused by the knot,
he's the worst Brzegiem political regime in human history, there's a match there. But if you say something like JFK the leader of the free world brought down by who Lee Harvey else will just some nobody. You know there's this mismatch or nine hundred and eleven this huge thing. By now teen guys with box cutters. Do you think they really Harvey Oswald acted alone? Do you really? What makes you think that all of the evidence none of the evidence against anybody else and all of the evidence against particularly him Gerald Posner's book case closed and then the attorney. What's his name,
that is the a man in a he is good his name? He has a massive book where he lines up every single one of the arguments by the CAN J, because, for the, for example, does make a big deal about how Oswald got a job at the book, depository building, which just happened to be where the parade just happen to be where the parade route was going to get a clear shot. So it was Posner the track down wind, the White House determined even when Kennedy was going to Dallas, let alone what the parade route would be. An oz well already had the job there that's just chance, so he knew in advance bro. Is this really knew that? Do you think it's possible that Oswald was in Cahoots? No? No! Now. Why do you think that what about the magic bullet theory? Well, that's been settled by the fact that the way it showed in the videos is that the two seats are like this and that the bullet has to do this. Well, in fact, the seats were like that and that Connor
the willow, your alley areas and in audio form, just what you're saying oh yeah, so it's like stadium, seating, right ones, elevated about any other, that's right! So the ball. It actually does when it passes through the neck through Kennedy's neck and then hits Connelly's shoulder it. It is already moving down to get his rest at fractions, wrist right. The this is been tested and student tested well sort of here's here's my issue with it, there's a couple issues, one on on the pro side. The idea that bullets will take a straight path is ridiculous: I've talked to hunters that have shot animals in the front and had a will it come out the same side? They shot it ricocheted, ricocheted off bones and came out like the front of the animal like bullets, take weird path when they hit things in particular, so to arrows. Take and as a person, who's well person, firearms and shot animals hunted this you don't sometime,
the bullet goes straight through and sometimes its bones and wacky things happen things deflect, but on the negative side they always distort bullets always distort, particularly when they hit bone, but bothered me they found that bullet in Connelly's gurney. When They brought him to the hospital they just conveniently found this bill at a hot. We have it. This is the bullet, it matches the the same rifle rifle yeah and it was a pristine. It was flattened. Barely if you look at that bullet. That bullet is nothing like a boat. That's it boned. When bullets hit bone, they they mushroom the balloon they bend. They distort wildly. They don't come out. Looking like that, they come out looking like that when you shoot him in the water or when you shoot him into like feathers, they don't come out looking like that, under normal circumstances, when they shatter the bone of two different people. Well, do you know that for sure? No, I do not know for sure. But one thing I do know a lot about is I don't know quite
a bit about what bullets look like when they hit things. I've looked into this pretty extensively and I've talked to a lot of people in enforcement military hunters and none believe that that bullet hit bones battered bones came out looking like that. Is it possible that double. It was the only bill it ever in the history of the world. The did do that yeah, it might be okay, so we're getting kind of caught up in the weeds of the anomalies. What about this? Just the Oswald himself had attempted to assassinate a general name: Walker. Six months before we with his rifle and a handgun, and he went over to the house. He took a shot through the guys when he saw him at the desk, took a shot, missed him he told his wife about it? He's I'm a rebel Lucien, I'm trying to start so don't get don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Oswald was innocent, I'm not, I mean- and I think it's very possible that Oswald did shoot at the president. You might have even hit the president.
It's also, very possibly that some other people were involved as well. Who I don't know say this: is the problem wait a minute? Why? The problem is, we don't know who they are just because you don't know who they are doesn't mean well in excess as well. But why do we need to postulate extra people because of all the gun, shots that happen in the short amount of time? The fact the reason why they came up with the theory of the MAGIC bullet the first place, because they had to account for a bullet that hit a curb underneath the overpass. Do you know that right, yeah, look at this third there's there's if you know why they came out with them. Yeah I've been there. Do you know why they came up? but his short, I mean it's right there you could not miss. The point was: that's that's sort of true yeah. It's not a far shot and he was a pretty good marksman a positive track down. Is we're not talking about that we're talking about the reason why they came up with the magic both here in the first place? Do you know what well I thought it was because of the alignment of the seat. No because they had to attribute three shots,
they had to figure out in one of them they were. They were thinking. Well, the all these wounds came from three bullets, but then they found a bullet that had hit the curb on the underside. The I checked into a hospital because he was hit the ricochet, so there's a curb that they proved was hit with a bullet. There was a bullet hole in the granite or whatever the fuck, the curbs made out of it hit this guy. He went to the hospital, so he was hit with a ricochet, so they knew that one bullet had not hit the president, and so they had to attribute all of these wounds. To one bullet now they one boat that landed into his neck. Another bullet that hit him in the head and what's a war, How did these three bullets cause of a wound on? Finally, as well, then they came up with there's a there's. The bullet look at that you have to look at the set at the end, it's flat and if you look at it from the end, no, it's not looking this under no circumstances do. I feel that this bullet could hit a wrist and still not be deformed. We prove that by experiments as a chief consultant in woo
ballistics for the Us Army supervise supervised test for the Warren Commission. Here's the thing I don't, I don't necessarily think that there was some grand conspiracy, but I do think it's entirely possible that someone took that posthumously took that rifle and wanted to pin it on Lee Harvey Oswald definitively like there's people that do things when they know someone's guilty and they plant evidence? Mark Fuhrman did that with Oj Simpson? They found his glove. They planted uh and there was one of the reasons why OJ got off, because there was some sort of conspiring to make it look like he was. You know it was with. The evidence is a clear path. They could have just taken that rifle and look could've been that are Oswald. Did alone, it's possible, but also could have been this. Some other people were shooting at him too. It could have been that they decided, decided, have Oswald, be a part of this, and when Jack Ruby ran in and shot him, that doesn't look little suspicious at some guy with ties to the mob gets right up to this guy who just shot the president and shoots him like. Why
every shot every before. Do it publicly positive talks about Ruby's character and who he was major Kennedy supporter Right even with some bad dudes, some brat bad hombres there in Texas and Eve the gun owner security wasn't anything like it is now. He really could just walk right in right, like he did it's possible, but it's also possible that that Guy owed something to the mob, and this is what they told me. They were going to get rid of that guy and no one is going to care is going to be happy fuck that guy just shot the president. No service, it seems so It seems like people wanted to be one way or the other and they want they want this. Pace closes after that way. I mean Lincoln was assassinated by a conspiracy, and that was evident pretty quickly afterwards. Rounding him up. You know world war, one was launched by a conspiracy with the assassination of Franz Ferdinand by a serbian group of you called the black and their group of Nationalists. Well, we are,
I talked about the Vietnam WAR to the Gulf of Tonkin Incident false flag. So these things do happen. There no fuss legs, there are conspiracies to assassinate foreign leaders you know Hitch wrote this book, I'm Kissinger as a war criminal, that you know all the shenanigans we were doing in South America with dictators. There were back in this dictator because he's a son of a but he's our son of a for saying this. Guy and we're gonna get assassinate Castro, all the stuff that came out that Johnson tried to cover up that came out in the Pentagon papers. About Kennedy, plotting to one slash, two Castro assassinated, that's a kind of conspiracy. So this absolutely this does happen. The question is: did it happen in that particular case, or this one or hear an the evidence? In my opinion, after reading particular Gerald Posner's book case closed, it's funny internet meme that went around last week of Gaia dies goes to Heaven and God says you've been such a good fellow. Your whole life
and one which she can ask me anything. He said all right who killed Kennedy and God said it was Lee Harvey Oswald, acting alone using his own Carcano Rifle and the guy goes. This goes higher up than I thought. That's funny, man, Did you ever read David Lipton's novel or a book about it rather yeah best evidence at best evidence I didn't read the whole book. You know when I was researching this back in the 90s after the Oliver Stone Film came out 'cause after that, when that came out, I thought man, if only half of this or ten percent of this is true, it's definitely a conspiracy, but then are websites dedicate to everything he got wrong there and what he made people up like that ' General Donald Sutherland Character that guy doesn't even exist. He just used him as a theatrical tool, very distorting film, but film is such a powerful medium yeah. It's hard to overcome that. Well, that movie, in particular you got Kevin. Costner was the good guy. Everybody was in loves yeah. I mean that
is a Jack Lemmon and Walter Matthau HM two crazy movie, and it really has you believing that there's some sort of a consideration to the lab back into the left people, but here's the thing about that, though I've looked at that over and over again. Yes, it is back into the left, but but the spray kind of comes out of the front yeah it does yeah yeah it kind of comes out the front, and one thing that does happen when people or things gay shot is you have nerves and nerves, react and things things do weird weird results in your body when, if you get hit by something it doesn't mean when you get here in the chest in and come up like that always grabbing his neck. Apparently that was the other thing There was a difference in the autopsy results from Bethesda Maryland versus in Dallas, Texas, Dallas Texas. They attributed the three wound to frontal shot at something hit him in the front and then
and the Bethesda Maryland? They said that it was a trait wound a day they opened about to clear his breathing pass away, and then in the conspiracy theories, is that why would you clear the breeding pathway of a God is of a brain we shot out of his head. Maria is a lot of yeah in the area. I just don't like when people say they know one way or another yeah we Harvey Oswald acted alone. How the could you know there was a bunch of bull there's, also a bullet fragments in Connally's wrist that weren't missing from the the bullet itself, the bullet itself, whether you think its pristine or not? It's still. It's not missing a lot of fragments and there's fragments in Connally's body that they, you could detect an ex. Where is x rays of his wrist, you could see the little pieces, then I don't know what the explanation for that exactly. That's, not the fact that I don't know, I'm not the world's expert on this stuff. People want to clean it up. That's what I don't know They want to clean it up or they want to muddy it up instead of like looking at it one hundred percent objectively, they want one thing or another. I think it's entirely possible that Lee Harvey Oswald? It's either to me, though,
they want to say this is the these: are the two narratives Lee Harvey What was a Patsy had nothing to do with it. Government set him up or he acted alone. What could he have been involved in it? You know he obviously was involved in some shady characters. The guy spent a ton of time in Russia came. Back over here very easily, even though the cold war was going on there's a lot of weird stuff. He might have very well been some sort of government informant or working in Cahoots with the government? If that's the case, and he did she Kennedy or shoot at Kennedy who's to say that he wasn't with other people and they killed him, because this guy was going to go to jail and he's going to start talking when they president. He said, I'm a Patsy, I'm just a Patsy and then Blam he's dead, but we got him and that's it up tight. It wasn't until the Zapruder film that people really started question and I think that was a ten years later right. We've talked about this, you know whole history, the zip router film how it was released before old,
Rivera show right, not crazy, right. Dick Gregory comedian brought the film footage to the Geraldo Rivera, show and showed it on television that life magazine, but the rights today, life magazine had the rights and didn't do anything with it. They kept it for more than a decade and Dick Gregory got ahold of the actual film footage. And premiered it on the Geraldo Rivera, show I want to say it was like one thousand nine hundred and seventy one or seventy two or something like that. So it was way way after the assassination that the American was. Seventy. Five is twelve YO, that's crazy! Seventy five! So all those years later and then people got a chance to see the footage and they were like well. This is not how it was described to us at all and it made people sceptical. There's a good Nova show on ballistics in the head and testing the rifle, and could you shoot that many times and that many seconds and so on and
It's pretty good to me. It's pretty convincing! The problem with me is, I know too much about what happens when bullets hit bones. I don't buy that. That was the bullet. I do look. I think they could have just dropped. That bullet off doesn't mean that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't do it about about that, though those it's like there might be some fucker involved and the David lifting book was. That was the book that got me in conspiracies that fucking book God, damn it. If I could go back and not read it, I bombed on stage because of that book did yeah. Well, it's my fault, but I've read that book the day I was performing. And I was freaking out 'cause. I was like twenty four or something like that was like. Oh, this is crazy. They killed the president and I was so naive and I was like really bummed out. When I went on stage and then I re I realize like- are you can't, like I didn't know any better known to do comedy for three years, which are you can call on stage bombed out? If you go to get your head together, you can't just say the jokes not have some emotional attachment to them, but
that book highlights what it was was lifted, was a bookkeeper and or an accountant. I believe, and he was hired to do something with the Warren Commission Report and report it, because he found contradictions and he went over the entire Warren Commission report, which is the norm, this enormous publication and he found all of these problems. All of these problems in the Warren Commission Report and all these contradictions then it was his determination. After reading everything in writing his book, he thought that the can occlusion they made they made before the fact and that they wrote all stuff to sort of very the back up their conclusion that it wasn't based entirely on an objective version of the facts and of the event itself and his his take was. There was a conspiracy
Well, it's launched a mini industry of books and has man think about the money that I made off of the Kennedy assassination go down the rabbit hole with this stuff ever see the um even of version of it now believes every very best it is the best I was on his computer spears show the yeah he's out there. Oh yeah. He believes it yeah. He like. No one could have made that shocked. They definitely could made that yeah. It's a rifle It's not that far and it just because someone gets lucky doesn't mean they can't get lucky like people get lucky all the time, people flip a coin and it lands on heads a mile away. I mean you know you could throw a coin, you could you could throw a coin out of a helicopter. You know you could say this is gonna, be heads when it lands and be heads you can get lucky. It really is possible. Well, this assess nation of Franz Ferdinand that triggered the first world war. This yes, but okay, they they messed up.
I mean they had like seven of them and they met in secret and they got their weapons that morning and so on, and it's a couple of am chickened out. Somebody else got lost. This is like three of am there he threw a hand grenade missed rolled into the car behind the friends for non and they got hurt and went to the hospital and he's like. Oh there's, not giving my speech. Let's go to the hospital and visit, see how he's doing so. They double back like half an hour later they double back and come back down the same route and the guy who had missed. He was just sitting there on the curb is like hold back here. They are bam. Yeah. Pure luck, pure luck, yeah yeah! That doesn't happen. Yeah yeah, I mean, I think that history turns Maur on that kind of thing than I carefully orchestrated perfectly executed, plots sure it certainly can. But you know the the idea that I'm I've always found it offensive. The idea that there's no way Oswald could have hit him like that. People say that
like there's no way, there's no way like you're, you never shot anything right, that's crazy! I can make that shot. One hundred percent yeah look if you have a rifle with a scope hope and a guy is a hundred yards away. You tell me can't shoot him Ray. That's crazy time. That's crazy! Talk of the rifles out of love. That was the other thing. They said this. The scope wasn't lined up correctly. Here's the thing folks, if you a rifle okay- and this is happened to me before- and you drop the rifle- the scope gets damaged. It gets moved it. It's a very sensitive thing like when you're talking about something that goes faster than the speed of sound a bullet boom firing out of a rifle, you have did that. That is going credibly fast and to be able to get that radical. Exactly on where you think that going gonna hit requires a lot of adjustments. When you go to the range they set up, a lead sled, you put your rifle down this lead, so you're not holding the rifle and by the way, Osborne wasn't holding either. The idea was that he had it rested right, which makes it much
more steady and much more easier to make an accurate shot. So you set up this rifle on the lead, sled and it's usually a hundred yards or two hundred yards would, however, far the distances to get you squeeze squeeze squeeze boom. The trigger goes off and you the that the bullet is low and to the left by a couple inches, you make an adjustment, the scope. If you drop that rifle that scope gets knocked the adjustments out the window, right. So the idea that there's like a perfect chain of command between Lee Harvey Oswald pulling that trigger and that scope never got rattled at all. No, but the conspiracy theorist want you to think there's no the you could have made that shot. That scope wasn't even lined up good how the fuck do you know? No, you don't know like anybody who knows anything about rifles knows, there's no way you could know, because if all you have to do is whack it here, I'm gonna bring you the rifle and just bump it with your elbow
funny, knock it into a wall when you're handing it to someone. That's that it's going to be be off so then you take it to a range. We're gonna prove definitively that he could have never made this shot. For this scope is off boom. Look it's six in just to the left. Wow case closed right. No, it's it's! There's no way. People know whether or not that scope was on when he was pulling that trigger. There's no way. You know when I went to Dealey Plaza, it's so big in our public. Imagine it's not! It's not you, gotta is like this. Is it it's tiny, so small, and then you go up to the museum and you're on the six floor, deposit, the book deposit, Ori and you look down and they have an x 2x is in the street and you think that's just right. There issue that with an arrow, I bet you could Can I guarantee, if you give me some time you give me some time you put a target. Where that thing was yeah right with that Lincoln once yeah and- and you put me in that window, I guarantee I hit the target with a bow right. We do not
you could now I'm holding it not no rest right. The idea that you couldn't do that with a rifle right. You, sir, certainly could Lee Harvey Oswald. Certainly could have done it. He certainly could I have shot at Kennedy. He was a crazy fuck. Lee Harvey Oswald was involved in a lot of shady shit. It wasn't. He was just some dentist somewhere any scored. Second reign depositories scored the second highest marksmanship there. It is right here to hear do that. So that such a short distance when you coming up Houston Street and going left, I always wondered why He didn't shoot him there when can't in the cars coming right at him. It was the other window. He was in the. Window on the left hand side. He was over there. No, no! No! No! It's it's over here! Yeah! It's right! There that's where Shannon from that window there yeah. So I always wondered I didn't shoot him when the car was coming right at him. That would have been a cleaner shot. It seems me head on. You mean yeah yeah,.
Maybe want to shoot a minute back of the head. Does it have the like the sniper? It's maybe a panic. It's that upper right, yeah, the look around yeah he well yeah, when we drove through it when a last time, not last time was in Dallas couple times ago, but when we drove through it, it's like it SIRI you like wow. This is it all happened right, Here, I've been twice there and there's always conspiracy, people walking around that they're looking for a tip, so I gave this great ten dollars ago. Alright, give me the whole story, and it was very entertaining here's, the grassy knoll, the picket fence, and he had another one about this. He took the manhole cover off because there was somebody down here in the manual popped up Bam then went back down the middle favorite dumb conspiracy is. They believe that the driver turn around shot correct. That's the best way. Those are the spaces fake people you're always going to get a bunch of really wacky conspiracies. Whenever anything happens in the news, whatever it is, you know any
thing and everything every particular. If it's big and famous again back to this cognitive dissonance like princess di, you know it cause of death. Drunk driving, speeding, no seat belt 10s of thousands of people died. I was drunk, he was drunk, get the driver of her car I didn't know that well drug he was partially drunk. He was tipsy drunk wow! I didn't. I didn't know yeah, that's right, so drunk driving, speeding hit and she wasn't wearing a seatbelt. I wasn't sure and simple, so I mean that's it, but but it doesn't feel like Prince someone like Princess di should die the way tens of thousands of Americans die in automobiles every year. See seems like there should be. You know the MI five and the royal family and the Arabs and the Palestinians I will everybody, was involved. Well. Here's an example of an absolute conspiracy that we know is was a conspiracy, Jamalco Soggy, yes right, yeah good example, this kind of
stuff does happen. This is a real key spirit, see that guy was murdered. He went to the saudi embassy in Turkey. They had him set up. They flew in fifteen people, including a guy who was a. He was a forensics expert. Who is an expert in and forensics evidence, and they think that he was there to make sure that there was nothing left behind. This is the official story story. They they strangled him caught him up and there's even recall things apparent. That goes all the way to listen to the top yeah. What is this Jamie? best video of seeing him, though the body double video him walking in and then this last time he was seen, yeah
he entered into there and there's fifteen different dudes that were waiting for him. They killed him chopped him up and there's videos of the those guys leaving with suitcases, and they say that the suitcases had his body in him. Yeah chopped up yeah, it's um! That's really! But that's also, you know Saudi Arabia. They can get away with some pretty sketchy shit and it seems like nothing's gonna happen right, like people puke people got fired. Well, I have to say on this: that um Michael Moore's film, nine hundred eleven. He made the point I was the first I'd seen make the point that the Saudi Arabia family got out of the United States on nine and twelve when all flights were cancelled and that Bush should let them and now here we see that Trump doesn't want to condemn the Saudis is: there are allies, so there's a bunch,
In there? It was all back to nine eleven. You know and- and we know the Saudis support bankrolled a most of the nineteen hijackers yeah. So that's the kind of conspiracy that we should be paying attention is not that Bush was involved and made it happen and secret. This is the kind of that really happens in politics. Yeah people are, are banking, each other, so we have to be nice to each other and homer in on overlook it. You know like when Trump said you know putting out. You know it. You know, put murders people, while everybody does it. What yeah we do, some terrible things to it, yeah and- and that's true, and what is true in in you know, I guess he's got a point, but the yeah it's it's just so much so much money,
so much money involved with Saudi Arabia and this article I was writing. I cited a criminologist Manuel Eisner in a study of one thousand five hundred monarchs in forty five monarchies across Europe between eight thousand six hundred and one thousand eight hundred found that about fifteen percent of them. Two hundred twenty seven were assassinated course to homicide rate of about one thousand per one hundred thousand ruler years ten times the background rate, so there's a sassy nations in history are pretty common. This is how power often changes hands before liberal democracy spread and after nineteen seventies. This is not uncommon yeah. So we should be surprised that people believe this kind of stuff, because you know there's some truth to that concert. The thing is unsettling to folks, because what he was killed for, they think well, there's there's two different versions of it right they can film. He was killed for um, criticizing the saudi arabian government, but he was Also, there's also that he was criticized because he,
aware- or he was killed rather because he was aware of some spy software. Where that's being utilized in that, if he wrote a story about this spy software being utilized by the saudi arabian government, that it would be a huge disaster, could be yep yeah, I mean there's, probably more. We I'm sure, there's a lot. We don't know so. Here's my the concession to conspiracy theories when you get acted president. They take in the back room to go. Okay, here's what's actually going on right. I can't close Gitmo can't close Gitmo, because no one will take those bad tooth. Okay, but but because I was a pull. The troops out of Afghanistan can pull the troops out of Afghanistan. If we do that, here's what happens yeah, but we don't know this. We know this. I think that something like that does go on, maybe not quite so secretly, but just that you know you and I don't need to know these things where I need to know basis and and the president does, when their candidates they say or whatever they say, to get elected
and then they get in there go okay. I didn't realize the Saudis are doing this and this and this and we need them for the six reasons over here. Okay, they did this bad thing and if we condemn them, then they're not going to do these things over here, so I better lay off the condemnation. That kind of stuff, I suspect, does happen yeah, I think, you're correct. I think I suspect the same thing, but what's fascinating to me about Trump is that he doesn't seem to care at all about violate protocol or about releasing information that he probably showed me that he's already accidentally really top secret information. I would just feel like if he knew for sure some some stuff like he would be the last guy, you would want to trust with that right. I know, but you know this thing about him, wanting to pull the troops out of Syria
there's got to be another story behind there, like put maybe said: look we got to take care of our business here in Syria. We're gonna, take care of Americans over here and you get your trump tower and red Square when I'm gone whatever you know, there's something that kind of stuff is the sort of thing that will come out in a equivalent of a wiki leaks in twenty years will go like the Gulf of Tonkin. Oh yeah? That's what what do you think think conspiracy? Theory that says that Trump has some video of trump getting peed the people that wake us here, that was published in, like some serious newspapers there's so much of the stuff that I just can't keep track of it. I mean, don't you think with him, though, to the like more than willing to put stuff like that out there, because they don't like him. So the pull that trigger a little bit quicker, maybe yeah,
but you know during the Bush in Ministry of People hated George W Bush. Do you think they hated him as much as they hate Trump? No, I think now there going oh, we would love to have George W Bush back yeah. I feel like they just thought he was incompetent directly. Putin does not deny possessing compromising material on Trump, but what did he actually say? Uh, I don't know yes, this is about the p tape says Matthew was a glace, C'Est Box. What is it from votes box I don't keep moving sure that doesn't mean anything. He probably didn't understand what they were saying that speaks russian right. I don't know. Do you find it odd that did these conspiracies? Not only, it seems like it's a,
of our our mind, the way our our brains, work. Our collective mindset is that we tend to be attracted to conspiracies and we tend to hope that those or true more than we hope a simple explanation- exists. Yeah it it well depends. It depends on who your group is and do they have power or not. So we know from studies that people that are out of power tended can spare can concoct, can piercey theories about those in power. In the moment they can empowered drop the conspiracy theories and the ones that are out so you're going to get more conspiracy theories about Republicans when the Democrats are out of power from left, leaning people and vice versa. Blacks are more likely to think that the CIA plan crack cocaine in the inner cities and those sorts of things. Conservatives are more likely to fear big government conspiracies. Liberals are more likely to fear big corporate conspiracies. There may be elements of truth at all
these things, but the ones latch on to have to do with how much power you perceive the other guy. Has that you don't have an. Therefore they must be doing something to get that that I can't do I'm on the outside, and so we tend to misperceive how much control and power people really have in positions of power, ceos, politicians and so on. Usually they don't have as much control and power as we think they do and people that get in there they go. I can't I can't I don't have this kind of controller power. I thought I would when I got here, but obviously I don't too many things that have to checks and balances that are in place of all. You can do these things on your own. You really need a group of people to conspire long with you, so you mean to have these frank discussions is this: some sort of an understanding that you have to keep this a secret right, more yeah, in other words like twelve guys in London, going to control the world's economy. How are they going to do?
that I mean who do you call to start a war in Iraq because inflation or whatever more likely, it's like in the cuban missile crisis, where you have jockeying back and forth back and forth, back and forth? Okay, look! We're gonna, give you the missiles in Turkey if you take the missiles out of Cuba, and it just ends up being some boring little thing that dissolves the tension that could have been world war. Three: it's like wow, just this little thing yeah. So much of history turns on those little. So in a way we got lucky there, but not just luck. I mean Kennedy and Khrushchev both wanted to untie the knot, the increase of sent a memo to Kennedy, saying you know you. You have pulled on this rope and I pulled on this rope and I don't know if either of us can untie it, but here's an idea. That's when he floated the you take the missiles out of Turkey
and- and I was just watching this Netflix documentary on this- and there was a thing about castro- sent a memo to Khrushchev, saying light him up your comrade. We are ready to die for the cause. You can just nuke all of Cuba and newcomer I don't care we're ready to die in crucial yeah Khrushchev apparent was like holy fuck, this guy's a madman. I'm not going to do that and so that Stroh, he's rated New Cuba, Jesus where's that memo they talked about this in this duck yeah anyway, so this was during the times of Operation Northwood when they were going to blow up a drone jetliner blame it on the the arm cuban friendlies to attack Guantanamo Bay and use it as a motivation to get us into war that Castro is fascinating case, because that guy cap that place ninety miles away from Miami? He kept that place running on his
until he died. That is crazy, really is crazy that he was able to pull that off. Well, he had a lot of support economic support from Russia, otherwise that would not have succeeded but succeeded. It's still it's so not that he was so close and he's running a military dictatorship. Essentially, a boat ride, away yeah I was just in Moscow months ago for a conference, and so I went to visit their world war, two museum, what we would call a world war, two museum massive building and they call it the great Patriotic WAR museum and the whole thing is kind of a tribute to Russia liberated Europe from the Nazis. What's yep, this is current. Oh yeah yeah I mean this is there from there perspective, they lost twenty seven million people, you Americans, you know five hundred thousand, not right and from their perspective, and you go to Berlin right next to the victory.
Look at that yeah, it's called the victory museum. Well there, it is. The museum of the great patriotic war is a history museum located in Moscow. Yet and they have this room with these chains hanging down with little crystal balls at the end of them that represent the twenty seven million people, and it's it's very moving. Go back to that that right there is good look how beautiful, how beautiful yes place. Yes, it's quite stunning and each of those room. That you go into it's like a diorama of some battle that they fought no way. I think you know it's good for us to know this to recognize from their perspective. They they they won the war, not the british Marigny in French. We did a little bit from their perspective, ah, but the fact that they lost so many people, twenty seven million. What's going on with that picture,
and some I don't up looking for number, seven: zero. Three percent- that's a weird picture right! I mean they have a point terms of their contribution terms of the loss of lives. Yeah, that's a in every country has its perspectives in that regard, which is why it's good to know some history. So you know, what other people are thinking and what they went through. Well, it's again, though, it's very What we talking about earlier in terms of the distribution of the news, it would be very nice if there was one yeah absolute new source. You can trust with no slant on it whatsoever when it comes to the distribution of history, it's of course, always written in in a way that favors, the people that are writing it, yeah, I was just talking to Rachel Klein Fell- do have a podcast now this is how- have you had a few months about six months now, science salon podcast yeah, well, sort of sort of an extension of our old Caltech lecture Series, but instead of lectures were doing dialogue,
without also people, science salon, science salon, so science dot com, it's okay, so I'm interviewing dialoguing with Rachel Klein filled. His is a new book called a savage order in it's about failed state and what happens to them and why corruption spread so quickly and then how to basically squelch that so like after the Soviet Union fell. Apart in all these mobs basically took over and is like the russian mafia. The Republic of Georgia fell apart fairly quickly and then you know so one of the reasons people apparently like Putin, is he kind of came in and and squelched all that and and maybe one of his points of popularity, is that at least we have one bad guy who's kind of keeping order. Instead of all these little mafioso type gangs, and- and I said so- it's
If he actually held an election, he might win. It's like it's hard to say, because we don't have a good source of what the russian people really like. We have the russian media saying the russian people, love Putin, okay, right do we know that's an accurate survey. It is pretty astonishing what kind of control he has over that country? Yeah! It's it's powerful! I went to visit well, I saw Lenin's tomb in the mausoleum there. You still still still looking pretty waxy to me That's right! You can actually see his body for what's left of his body uh, what's left of it yet another Netflix series. I just binge watched Trotsky, it's called- and this is a russian made film. It's a drama and it's real. Good, and it really shows it's interesting because he he Trotsky was on the outs all the way until just recently, because Stalin had him assassinated and then Stalin had him literally airbrushed out of photo.
Rats because for a while it was Lenin. Stalin and Trotsky is the big three and then, when Lenin had a stroke, it was like the case of Stalin and Trotsky who's going to take over when the boss is gone. And so the kind of showed how that happened again. Conspiracy, it's all conspiracy. No one knows what's really going on here. You've been in this business Debunking conspiracy, conspiracies in the skeptic business for quite a long time do you feel like there is, is any improvement in the critical thinking, skills of people in their ability to recognize the fall and the the flaws in the way they're approaching these things hard to say nation, by their less of less of that now than before, like to think we're having an influence. Some studies that show you know fewer people believe in these pseudo sciences and quackery and paranormal. But it's not the declines are not that dramatic over, say the last few decades.
There are de programming bias, deprogramming studies and programs in it, which you can teach people about, the confirmation, bias and hindsight bias and on the problem with those is they work really well to teach people how to spot the by These and other people they're really good at that. But then you say well what about you? Oh, you know, fortunately, I'm above all that there's a blind. That's got a blind spot by us. You can't hear on by us, but you can see it in other people The reason these studies are done is because, like we have a problem with climate change, we have climate tonight, here's. How do we get people who don't know anything about it to shift from I'm a skeptic to I'm a believer and it it turns out just piling on fax isn't going to do it. No peoples are Kennedy trapped in there. Initial there initial statements if they think that nine and eleven was a conspiracy there there I des
city is somehow inexorably connected to this conspiracy being a fact effect, and then you argue it is if you're arguing your own value. It's it's a really weird thing that happens when people start talking about ideas, if the You very rarely find people that are disconnected from their ideas, their the point where you could point out that something is incorrect and they go. Oh thank you. I didn't know that, like most people aren't ready that confident now or aren't they just look at the wrong with it feels like a personal attack on them, but also as if it, if it's a belief or claim or theory or whatever affiliated with a political or moral or religious value, the people autocorrect in there, means when their global warming, they here realism, yeah, it is yeah. I capital is in control of the market, big government and I'm against those things so that global warming things got to be faults yeah that is one of the weirder aspects of tribal thinking right to take bigger, makes the point that,
Al Gore's film. An inconvenient truth was a terrible thing for the environmental movement because it associated global climate change with liberalism the Democrats and all that is like okay. I see what's going and it's that Al Gore left liberal stuff. Yeah. That's right, yeah well in in a in a sense, he's right and then in another sense, is also the amount of profit that Al Gore made both from that and from some other endeavors that he has. They said that he's one of the first green billionaires Jesus. What's his carbon foot, with that I rise around a private jet everywhere is talking about the world yeah. It's like it's screwy yeah. It is, but that's in there's, everything's messy people are messy right so
we're very tribal. We commit to political parties of religious beliefs and we stick by them pretty closely pretty tightly and the facts get filtered through those. Understandably um. You know what to do about it. You know. That's that's under debate. Same thing with atheist debating. How do we get people to leave religion? Well, it is there's one hundred ways Leah Remini doing her show on Scientology anyone watching that would think. Okay, I'm not joining this church and if you thousand of those for bad beliefs. Hopefully we see that shift. I would love it if there was some sort of a secular option: a community driven ethics, driven morality, driven friendship, driven thing where people could go and instead worship, maybe just appreciate life and it sort of confirmed some of the best aspects of
of community and culture and who we are and do it in a place. Where makes you really conscious of it, because I, I think there's some some real benefit to people going to church and Everyone in the community community dresses up. Nice and you sort of agreeing hey we're committed to being civil and being kind and worshipping and that this believe in a higher power, if it it empowers people to think this way, and it is people a motivation to be kind and it would be nice. There is a secular option like that. That is decentralized is not run by one person ones of bang, everybody's wife and taking all the money, because that's what happens is that you can set your clock by these guys, it's unbelievable. I will the human movement is something like that, and what is this? I'm not aware, secular, humanists or just humanists: there's groups all over the world have churches. Well, they have mean in places one hundred cult in churches more broadly, the universalist
Unitarian. Church is a church and it's a religion but they're pretty secular there, like secular Jews. You know, I believe, in the culture and the ceremony and the rituals I've been to a number of these humanist and universalist unitarian churches ceremonies. They like candles, they sing hymns to Newton. They have testimonials about how I lost my religion and to me. I didn't really like it that much because I was never crazy about church in the first place, but a lot of people clear you get value out of this atheists and humanists that don't believe in God the gathering together once a week and being with fellow like minded people that has a lot of psychological value. It connects people, that's one of the great things about community centers in neighborhoods and know it just connects people, I'm like hey we're all in this together, alright Bob seat, arab- I marry you- know social capital, yeah, there's something there's something great about that with church that
I mean I was having this conversation with Bill Burr about this recently we were talking about it and he's like I don't. I don't really want to go to church, but I think there's some something to that to go into a place and and putting your faith in you know all the people around you and the high your values and morals, and ethics that your old agreeing. Now it's back to the self help thing is of a reminder. Every week, be a good person. Don't forget, donate to charity here some local charities here, These are our causes, be good, be good, be nice to your spouse and your children is on so people kind of leave a little charged up for the week on Sundays, but back to Monday. Let's call it a draw of those big tony Robbins things to the right is a community of us together, we're all trying to do better route, trying to better ourselves and optimize our lives.
Hey, there's nothing wrong with the same thing back to Jordan, Peterson! That's that's right! He's he's! Given a message, people like to hear that yeah and okay. So what what? Why is that bad? That's, not bad yeah! Now, of course, people like Richard Dawkins, a player yeah, but but Can we do a couple of the supernatural nonsense? from the social community. Yes, we can, but don't you think that there less there's less an acceptance of the supernatural nonsense than there was say that fifty years ago hundred years ago- and it seems to be a trend, those numbers are getting that secularism yeah the number of the person of nuns, people take the box for no religious affiliation that used to be in the single digits. It's now: twenty five percent of all Americans, thirty, three percent of millennials those born after one thousand nine hundred and ninety one and looks like probably with I Jenners can be closer to fifty percent people born after one thousand nine hundred and ninety five. Now there
necessarily atheist agnostic skeptics, but they don't affiliate with any religion and that's good, because in the sense that you know it's, it's it's religious behavior that caused some of these social problems that we encounter encountering now with Islam, for example You know so somebody privately believes in God or whatever, and they don't act on it. Okay, I guess I don't care in that sense. It's the acting on your beliefs that causes the problem. Well, when you and forces believe some of the people that that's right when it spills over into politics, education, science, education, particular It's one of the real problems they're having in Europe when they're dealing with people that are coming over from other countries where they have a different set of values and they're, seeing women in skirts and they're, calling them whores, and it's like bro you're in England right different set of rules over here in California, you won't believe it, and they think that God has you know, Got- is dictated these rules,
in their eyes, they're, seeing some horrible sin there, the the decay of the moral fiber, the moral fiber of their environment. These are primitive beliefs having to do with men wanting to control women's reproductive rights. Evolutionary reasons for this yet Brett and Heather on here, and they explain that beautifully at, but we have to overcome that just because it's even involve tendency for men to want to control women's reproduction doesn't mean we should do that, yeah, the opposite yeah, and so I make the case when my said every american columns that abortion- that, in a few, if our mutual goal between pro lifers and pro choicers, is to reduce the amount abortions. We know the formula educate women, empower women, birth control, birth control, access to birth control and so on. It just happens automatically: they pregnancy rates go down there for abortion rates are going to go down. We know how to do this, but still people the pro
lifers to just glom on it, but it's a moral issue the moral out of it. I understand it's. A human life are potential human whatever want to argue. I get on the take that out, let's just work to the common goal of using the number of unwanted pregnancies, my favorite, and that still exist is abstinence. The idea that they're trying push this on these. Essentially, when you specially talking about really young people that are just getting horny for the first time, I mean there on drugs there and they say no. What why do you talking about? You take the average one thousand seven hundred and eighteen year old, kids and you try to get him together and no ones in the room. They're raging raging with hormones and they're, both supposed to keep their clothes on. Like look man, it's not going to happen It's not going to happen! You gotta! Let that go in this idea that you're going to tell them that God wants them to be app. Like. Are you sure? Why did he give us God. Damn hormones what's happening here.
Studies on how effective abstinence, only programs or chastity pledges and these sorts of things? How effective? not only are they not effective, they're worse, because then people go into like a date or something UN prepared. Then the hormones kick in, you know and they they start going at it, and then they don't have protection. Well, there's all So the thing where Catholic schools like when I was a kid did, we always knew and like this is we're talking about in the 80s Everyone knew that girls who went to all girls catholic schools were freaks. Because they were never around boys because they're all in just a school with girls and there everything is suppression, suppression, suppress, suppress. They just can't wait to get out there. They find a boy, they go crazy. Like everybody knew it. I mean this is not something that I knew as a comedian or is a person who studies. Culture is something I knew as a fourteen year old. Everyone knew that girls who went to
all school. All girl catholic schools were freaks right it just as the opposite intended effect. There was a study of british step I found that found some small, but it was like one one slash two percent or whatever of ten thousand women who said they got pregnant without having text. All that apple hasn't happened after that happened, happened to Macula bible perception, that's right, it's hilarious, yeah or they do everything, but or they have any, or whatever and say. Well, we didn't actually have sex like Clinton, you know. Well, what do you mean by sex right? Have an sexual relations is because he did not have sexual relations with that woman. There's a landscape sex is intercourse. Vagina that he everything else is just hanging out right, yep. Well, it's the the the need for belief systems is it's so I mean it. It helps people dabbling
systems of their positive in their objective and their well reasoned in there. You know these are backed by. Facts and knowledge. It helps, but the need for belief systems is so strong that will take a Abal system. That's wonky is because we have have desire yeah, yeah yeah. The brain abhors a vacuum of belief. The way I put it and that something's going to be in there. So let's try to put in those brains, rational science, based of values, and we have those. I mean humanist values that you know the the humanist movement is now but a sense, almost a center The old universal human rights, the universal Human Rights declaration, just celebrated its 50th anniversary. You can get diverse people to agree to have the correct philosophical arguments to get there, but you know just everybody should be treated equally under the law. Can we at least agree on that? Yes, okay
if you start off with pinker makes this point enlightenment now, if you start off with Jesus, died for our sins. That's the most important value value to you're, not kind of get agreement, a room full of UN diversity. You got start with something super basic in general. Everybody's is deserves equal rights, okay, yeah and then you start to build from there, and we can do that. Do you find you've been in this for a long time and you've done some really valuable work? It's been it's it's so nice that there's someone like you that really has dedicated their life to really. Illuminating truth, exposing all the flaws in people thinking do you feel like there was This is your easier now or it's it's there's more momentum behind this kind of thinking. I do yeah for sure it's it's more open. Put put part of my. I have a distorted view, I'm from California, a group of southern California we're
pretty liberal society here. So I'm sympathetic to people write me from Oklahoma Arkansas and I'm in this little town, everybody. The only question is which Christian church do you go to. You know the Baptist or the Presbyterians and you know everyone in his family- everyone at work is a believer and he's an atheist, uh. Okay, so I haven't faced anything like that. You know I'm a middle aged white guy, you know I don't I I do have white privileges, I know ah, and so I I I am sympathetic to others, but I do think across the board things air, more tolerant. You know we know this from studies on interracial marriage, for example. That's not even an issue anymore. The gay rights thing has changed. Very rapidly. I mean that was stunning, how quickly social attitudes changed after the. So we have to remember in two thousand thirteen. Hillary Clinton was still saying that you didn't believe in gay. Marriage is right out because it was a political position. That's right now, bomb in twenty eleven. You never know when a politician says something of course,
but now so I predict you know like the gay marriage thing, this no one would be talking about in another year or two. It will change so quickly across the board. The acceptance now of atheist, humanist secularists, agnostics, whatever has become much much better in most places, still setting course of islamic countries. Where not only would they burn me and you they burned Catholics because they picked the wrong religion. So, they're still that I wonder if there's some improvement there in those countries, because the internet, with younger people when they're being exposed to these new ideas- yeah- maybe ah, I'm not sure on that data. The last time I saw a big poll was on how supportive you would be of Sharia LAW, and these were pretty scary. Like one slash three to one slash, two of Muslims living in muslim countries said they would support Sharia law. And if you look at a tree a lodge, as you know, it's it's pretty scary, very anti democratic deliver.
I'll attitudes about rights and women, and things like that. So there I I think the prediction would be yes, millennials and I Jenner's when they get into power than maybe Dick, not just political power but like controlling talk, shows radio shows tv shows grips things like that. Most
I think most moral change happens in people's minds from inculcating it from culture pop culture of just how you talk about other people like if Dawkins makes this point that you can tell pretty much down to the decade when the book was written by the way they talk about women like a novel talk about women or blacks or whatever going back say a century. You could say well that was nineteen thirties, the way they're talking about Jews. You know and that's the kind of thing that shifts very slowly. You hardly notice it, but from people like you could be any incidents, you tell certain jokes or you say certain things and it becomes more acceptable. Scripts for television shows and films, um and all of this kind of watch it and absorb it and just think yeah. You know we shouldn't be saying this
tons of things about women and Jews and blacks or whatever stop doing that, not consciously you just kind of soak it in. So I think you still need laws. We have to sometimes change the law on just say: ok, it's now illegal to discriminate against Jews or whatever you can't do that now. People may still want to do that. How do we change their thinking? Well, if that's the bottom of thing that takes course of decades or maybe it's Entry and it takes generations sometimes because the new young kids have to see the flaws in the way their parents are thinking and have access to this information and form their own opinions on these things, hopefully bakes based on objective reasoning and reality and and all the awesome stuff it's available. Now my step dad was in the Pacific WAR and the way he talked about Japanese. You know when I was a kid in the six really cool and then, by the time I became an adult, I'm like dead. You don't don't say that stuff to say it out loud
think about one thousand, nine hundred and forty seven to nineteen sixty that's a tiny period of time. It's so short yeah! I mean it's really like you know. When we're talking about the early 2000s right image, of world war, two happen during the early two thousand right, yeah, it's hard. It's hard you remember it's it's hard to put it into perspective. I think pop culture, the media, social media and so on is is going to accelerate moral progress will happen faster, like it happened faster for women than it did for blacks. It happen faster for gays and it did for women. You know maybe whatever's next animal rights- or you know something like this- will accelerate even more maybe trans rights or something we think about the push back back against this idea that we are living in the safest time ever and that there is an absolute trend like pinker gets criticized about this, where people say no, the world is still not safe for these people. For this for this group, for that grew, been for you saying that the world,
So just shows your white privilege in the this white male perspective, and I'm I'm bored with was Steve all across the board. On these things, he's got the data. It depends on the question you're asking you know it. It's like, if you say yeah, but my life is not better okay, we're not talking about your life. The question is: is society getting better? Okay, of course, there's ups and downs, and this group is doing better than that group? And yes, there's still some racial discrimination and yes, there's still clearly anti Semites is we've seen recently, ah, but across the board. If you take like the last two hundred years, which direction of the trend lines going, they're all going in the right direction. So again it's scale. The question is: what's the scale we're talking about, so it's it's a little unfair to pinker to say well, you're blind to that thing over he's not talking about that
one thing there he's talking about just across the board yeah. I agree. Listen man! Thanks for everything, thanks for everything you do thanks for all your articles, in your books and thanks for coming on here and please let people know your podcast once again is called skeptic salon: science, science, science along. We just got a skeptic dot com and it's posted there And yeah, so skeptic is still going and social media at Michael Shermer is my twitter. Feed have instant as well. I don't I don't do that. How dare you well? I had two incidents, Michael Shermer one. So do you have an I do I'm going to start posting as of today. Ok, you take a photo. I always click on yours 'cause. You always have interesting photographs from wherever you're at it is kind of fun. It's fun just take an extra minute or two giant waste of time
don't get sucked in I'm already wasting so much time on twitter. But thank you MIKE appreciate it. Man thanks for having by everybody. Thank you, everyone for tuning into the podcast and thank you. To our sponsors? Thank you to Legalzoom visit Legalzoom dot com now and for special, savings be sure to enter the code Rogan in the Referral box at checkout. That's code Rogan for special savings only at Legalzoom dot, com Legalzoom, where life meets legal. Thank you also to quit the best Damn electric toothbrush I've ever used. They've got it nailed the figure out. They made it better and you can try out quip and you can get your first refill pack for free. If you go to get quip dot com, Slash, Rogan Quip starts at just twenty five dollars and again you can get your first refill pack for free
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Transcript generated on 2019-09-27.