Alex Berenson is a former reporter for The New York Times and the author of several thriller novels and a book on corporate financial filings. His new book "Tell Your Children: The Truth About Marijuana, Mental Illness, and Violence" is available now via Amazon. Dr. Michael Hart is the founder and medical director of Readytogo clinic, a medical cannabis clinic in London, Ontario, Canada.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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com? Slash Rogan, okay. Today, ladies and gentlemen, we did something very interested. What we did today was, we did a debate. We did a debate based on a book that was written, called, tell your children, and this book is written by Alex Berenson and it's a very controversial book controversial that I said that right, very virtual book about marijuana and to debate with him and bring some other interest information and a different person. If I brought in Doctor MIKE Heart, he is a founder, an medical director of cannabis focused clinic. He is an actual cannabis, focused physician from Canada, where it's legal up there and
and we had a great conversation and I think we really covered both sides, and I think we really played it not as fair as you can, and I think I think it's a very educational illuminating discussion. So I hope you enjoy it. So please welcome Doctor MIKE Hart an Alex Barron, Open, Minecraft checking out experience join my Gagal Rogan podcast by night live latest gentlemen. Gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen. Listening but Youtube and less we some non binary handle that you enjoy it's it's a new world please please introduce yourself sure so, I'm Doctor Mychart, originally from Saint John now residing in London on and all my family doctor and I've, been practicing canvas Madison for just over five years
and use her. My name is Alex Berenson I used to be a New York Times reporter. Then I became a spy novelist. Anne most recently, I wrote the book. Tell your chill, learn the truth about marijuana mental illness and violence which came out last month and has not endeared me to the cannabis advocacy community. I'd say how they attacked you mercilessly for this book. Yes, they had and that's and that's, ok, uh. I've also heard from a lot of parents. You know some users, but parents have told Maine that the book really encapsulates their their families problems in the last couple of years. I inspect my real thoughts here before we even get started. We're going to find that the truth is somewhere in the middle here uhm, I don't think marijuana is one hundred percent safe honestly for everybody. I really don't. I know too many people that have had experiences where they took too much, particularly edibles.
And I don't I want to say I know anybody who had psychotic breaks, but I know some people that freaked out for weeks. You know In fact, uh. We just had a comedian here from Brazil, uh couple days ago, Rofi boss, toes who said he took a couple of hits of a vape pen. He was high for fourteen days, went to a psycho, Tristan and he's a big guy he's like six foot, five hundred and sixty six you know, and you know they told him to keep taking it 'cause. You know he's like you're, so big just keep smoking, and so he doesn't smoke. He just kept hitting his vape pen. He said I was hired for fucking two weeks. You need to do it properly. Right, you need to be held to the same state is any other medicines. You need to identify that there's risks and there's benefit yeah, and some people are definitely going to be more susceptible to. Those risks yeah and we need to kind of tease out those people and make sure that those people don't put themselves at risk. Yeah
I think so as well- and this is one of the reasons why I want to state this 'cause, I'm a well known marijuana advocate, but I I do only, I believe absolutely there are great benefits to it. I think there's great benefits in terms of, relieving pressure, ocular pressure for people that have glaucoma people with aids who are on medication. People with cancer that are going through chemotherapy find great benefit in terms of helping them and then there's also some people with autism. I know people that their children have autism and they give them small amounts of edible marijuana and stop seizures it's incredibly beneficial to form of Cbd. For a lot of different ailments. I think with all things- and this is a stance that I've kind of like really come to accept over the last few years, with all things that affect the mind. They affect everyone slightly differently, absolutely yeah. I was going to say not for something
You know there are people who said don't go on with Joe he's just going to. You know he's going to try to eat you alive and an especially the it will be two on one. I told them the truth. First of all, I will go on with anybody. An I'm glad. You had me on art you're having me on, because you know bill more. He won't have me on he's afraid talk to me about this. Why would he said? Well, he told the Simon Schuster PR people we just don't want to have him on an NPR point. Pr show headed interview scheduled with me an hour, long segment and they cancelled it. They said. Is it I don't believe in the conclusions of the book? Ok, you don't believe in the conclusions in the book. Have me on ask me anything yeah and that's why I'm so happy that you're not afraid to me on that we can have a conversation that we can have a conversation. Come at me with question. You want about. The science mean I'll stay right at the top. We don't think marijuana is Madison. It has a few
medical uses that have been Cbd has been shown to reduce seizures and kids. That's great Thc has been shown to reduce the nausea associated with chemotherapy, that's nice, but for the most part people use thc in cannabis. Is recreational intoxicants. They use them to get high the same way. They use alcohol the same way they use other drugs and the sooner we accept that reality, the better off we'll all be that this is a drug and it has risks and benefits and risks and benefits are different than alcohol. There are different than other drugs, but I don't think if you look so population level basis there less than alcohol. I don't think you can even say that I don't. I really strongly. Disagree with that, and I mean you just have to look at the death rate right. You know more people die from alcohol than you know. Almost all drugs combined, but when we're looking at cannabis There's zero deaths attributed to the use of cannabis itself. Sure you could say someone could you scan.
Bass and jump off a cliff or something like that, but we're talking about the lethal dose, you cannot die from cannabis and just based upon that alone, it makes it much safer than alcohol. So how could you say that if that is the case? So, ok, so that's a really good question: the normal number that's used for us. Death from alcohol is about ninety thousand. Now about thirty to forty thousand of those deaths. Are deaths from the physical effects of alcohol right essentially live either chronic liver damage you get cirrhosis, you die in some some cases you can drink so much that you kill yourself in a night. So that's about thirty to forty thousand deaths. The other death are generally associated with alcohol, meaning somebody drinks violent suicide, car accident and they all those numbers are basically based on studies from the 90s and before where you know, people looked at traffic app
and there were certain number of those accidents where people had a blood alcohol content of higher than zero point one. They said: ok, that's an hour call associated death. That's a fine way to count. As far as I'm concerned. Noble has ever done that count for cannabis, and I can tell you, based on the Tox screens, that I've seen from Colorado where people cannabis in their blood and committed suicide. People like this in their art, I should say thc in their blood and and got into fatal confrontations with police officers. If and when we do this number for cannabis, which we need to do as soon as possible. The number could be a lot higher than zero, I suspect it will be in the ten to twenty thousand range. We won't know till we actually do it. Ok! Well, let's, let's eliminate: let's go even over the alcohol, let's eliminate all things like violence and let's eliminate suicide, and let's assume those people would have committed violence and committed suicide. Without it you're still
looking at a giant number of people who drink themselves to death yeah I was in thousands and thousands of people every year versus zero with marijuana and you're aware, I'm sure that correlation does not equal causation and that especially in a place like Colorado, were you dealing with cannabis, something that stays in the system for many many weeks, if you're testing people and they test positive for marijuana and wind up committing suicide. They wind up committing violence; they don't not even necessarily have to have been under the influence of it. Well, you guys, you know, there's when, when you test the blood, you can test the both the active, much amber light and the inactive metabolize thc, so so that s when you do a blood test on somebody is committed suicide. It's sophisticated enough to tease that out. There's a lot of people who have the active metabolite in their blood. I agree. Alcohol is a physically toxic subs, cannabis is a neurotoxin for a lot of people, but in addition to the deaths, there's also just the morbidity that
associated with alcohol. I mean it ruins people's lives that ruins marriages at the weight gain at least to a lot of metal ball, because you think you might say that for some people with marijuana too, I think you could say some people, especially weight gain. Has some people smoke on a pile, they get lazy and they start eating Cheetos all day, and you could also say that with some people you know the way Baker's that you know would seem to be wasting their lives away and that's like the stereo, typical old, negative comp. You know little and we're talking about negative description of a marijuana user. It's the wake and bake or at the person who's talking all the time. You could absolutely said that could in relationships. You could absolutely that would ruin your job. You could but again two. You know we're using the term marijuana and really we should be using t, H, C, hi, t c or or saying that. Okay, because your
who use a high cd everyday as as we know, are mostly listen, this priority be dealer is non psychoactive, yeah not get you high super benefit, you know get. I can be yeah extremely beneficial, for you know a variety of different disorders that people have yeah. So you know we really need to be careful using cameras, verses using your cheeks because it's really the thc that can do that and to your point you know, you say like yeah, she can cause the munchies and, of course, that's not good for someone who it doesn't want to gain weight, and just so people know the way that it does do. That is when she see attached to the cb one receptor you get. An increase in horn called ghrelin and grill in can actually induce hunger and that's why people get get the munchies. But you know that is not necessarily a bad thing. If you're someone who has cancer, if you're someone you know who's wasting away from from from a terrible illness, you know so sometimes having having the munchies is definitely a good thing,
and I know you know a lot of people have said to me: it's not available, so you should probably not talk about as much, but there is another cannabinoid call thcv. So you know there's over Hunter cannabinoids in cannabis. Cheats you conceived are only two of them. Those are the main ones that people know about so thc. Has been shown to actually reduce appetite. So if we can get that out there in the market, you know like we have with with Cbd Then we can almost seal, eliminate or potentially substantially reduce the problem that people have with thc by using it with Thcv Doctor, and I have a question for me: when people come into your practice, did they do they want high cbt products or did they want to get intoxicated and if not I'll, easily handed it's flat sure of course yeah. So it's like if they they don't need to go to him to get into all right, so people so you're, seeing a population that is genuinely interested in the health benefits. Absolutely because I mean If- and I mean I'm
that that's legalized in Canada, because it does make my job a little bit easier because basically- who's coming to me now. I know that they want to use it medically because if they want to use it recreationally I mean they just go to the store right right out of the pain to get into. Let me come in and have the discussion all that type of stuff, so people who see me now? You know they're all using it medically and then your to answer your question, though, Alex almost my patients, as soon as they come in they say I don't want to get high. I don't want to get high like that's almost what everyone says. So I think the word is out there that your is non psychoactive but doesn't get you high that a lot of people are really interested in that compound an you know if if the people didn't have the success that they'd had over the past few years, it wouldn't be. Popular is it is so you know. I think that We do need to look at the scientific evidence, but we do need
listen to others in the anecdotal evidence. Is you know something that that with that we should consider because it is so strong Alex? Let me ask you this: why don't you consider it medicine when it has proven medical benefits? Well it we can be medicine for these narrow things that the FDA has approved it for, but as you I'm sure when people talk about it as Madison, when the ballot initiatives that have gotten it approved does medicine have really essentially deceive voters about the process right, so you go to you, you go to a pot doctor you get and authorization that authorization essentially enables you to buy as much cannabis as you want for the next year. Most the time. In reality, these doctors are not giving you a real medical examination. They're saying to you: hey, do you have pain? Do you have anxiety? Here's your authorization. I don't think you should speak for every single day I don't know not everything, but we don't do that at my clinic, and I know that a lot of the clinics in Canada anyway, we definitely do not
do that and we provide a lot of education at my clinic in there's other Clint. You can also provide sure and- and- and I and I imagine, there's a spectrum, but in the US this was a set and I spoke to advocates advocate for to Rob- is who you know who ran the marijuana policy project for a long time for the book, and he and he acknowledged you know. The advocates knew that this was a backdoor route to legalization yeah, I used to joke around about it, but my doctor said why d pot, I said I get headaches. He said when you thanks. I said whenever I think about the fact that possibly open prescription- I mean, let's be honest about it. I'm not look, I say in the book at the end, I don't think this should be the subs and should be legalized decriminalization, which sort of jumping ahead here. But if it's going to be legal I'd rather have it be legal for recreational use. I'd rather that we don't pretend
thc high cannabis is a medison and I'd rather separate outdoors like service machine. She isn't the same but yeah, but why you saying don't pretend because there's many medicines that have horrific side effects the medicine t see in regards to children's autism is pretty significant and well documented. The epilepsy autism. Those two huge things that happen with children that they've been I want to severely mitigate with, edible marijuana. So I have to push back on your little bit. C b d has been shown to reduce seizures in in children with epilepsy. It's it's actually a crew for ninety anecdotal, but I have a good friend who has a child who He uses it on and he showed it. I mean it's a bit of a game, changer yeah, I mean, let's just let me interrupt for sex like I had a patient for five years ago, and she was twenty years old. She couldn't drive a car because she had seizures,
so you can imagine being twenty years old not being able to drive a car. All your friends are driving around, so she uses a little bit of Cbd, not even every day. She never had a seizure single get right now, she's able driver covered, but this is we're talking about c b d, he's talking about t, H, C seven, so you talking about you're talking about a case, okay and and I'm not saying that your friend situation didn't happen, I'm going to say it's not really. What I'm saying is that the reason we have clinical trials is because science the way you know whether medicine works or not whether a chemical compound works whatever that company is the best way to know. Is you give it to two groups you you give the real medison to one group of people and you give a placebo to the other group, and you see the changes in those two groups over time and you find now? Whether or not your theory about whether this works on a population level basis is real or not? That's how that is at the core
of medical science and we've basically thrown that rule out for thc. Well, that's not entirely correct. You do know that there is we're studies that were run during the Nixon administration that show the efficacy of marijuana in the safety of in those were all squashed, and you also I'm sure you you know like when we're talking about marijuana. You talk about something: that's federally legal, yes, not so I'm going to see. Go, that's easy! He to run these FDA studies on yes and I do to, and I said in the book I think we should drop that. I think anybody who's got a legitimate interest in Reese searching either thc or canvas or any of the compounds for for a medical condition. Let them run phase one phase, two phase three trials. Let's see if this, if this kept, if this plant is good for these things, I think that's a great idea but still, why are you saying that you don't think it is meant to someone all these people find benefited? So so do you think they're getting it from just the Cbd, the minimal amount of cvd and and marijuana? No, I think that again there are there's been
A lot of research done on thc and cannabis at to see whether or not those weather thc the compound in weather smoke. Cannabis can treat these conditions and, for the most part, the studies have been negative. The again there's negative in what way, meaning they haven't shown any actual, like Kenny State site. These studies there I mentioned in my book- ok, well what what were the conclusions, these studies when you're saying that they're not positive that they again that they didn't work? the drug didn't work on watt on cancer, on Alzheimer's disease, on irritable, bowel syndrome. On also I mean you know you throw in a few different things out there, and you know I appreciate the fact that we can't be going around. You know saying things like you know: cannabis can breast cancer right, but you know uh and I've done videos even like recently stating that. But if you look at the research, I mean specific, If you look at specific cancers there are
studies have shown that she'd see and cbt can help we get except for talking about breast cancer. I did a video on this recently. You know if you are h e r to positive, can you use cheat seeing Cbd? It can in fact reduce tumor size and it can reduce tumor growth. Now, if you have I'm sorry plan in which it was, I mean h E. What is it's a subset of breast cancer right, so there's there's different types of breast cancer and that's just one subset of of breast cancer. So there are other breast cancer switch, do not express cannabinoid receptors. I know I've seen one study at least again. It's only one study that showed that when they gave G C and the animal model and actually cause a proliferation of of tumor, so a worsening. So you know I do agree with you Alex in the fact that you know we have to be careful about using. You know terms like that, but that just doesn't mean that we can't say that cannabis is no good for cancer at all and
Even in the National Academy of Science and engineering report, they said that cancer was great for chemotherapy, induced nausea, right. So you know it's, it's definitely a really good your medicine, for you know a lot of different things and and we're talking about cheat see. You know I I said earlier of course, and we need to be careful about what you see, but it definitely is Bill Madison, and you know what your point with regards to you know not being a medison safer, something like PTSD. You know I come from it from a clinician of you, so I'm not a researcher, so I need make sure that my patients are getting better. It's very frustrating just to say to someone or there's nothing I can do for you there's nothing. I can do for it. You know- and I understand that you know doing something sometimes is not going to be beneficial just because you're doing something I have to do something that actually works, but you know we do have. Logical studies and we have other stuff.
So the shown that when patients are given cannabis, that can reduce their symptoms of GSD there's also another study, I don't use this drug too often call called nab alone. So now blown is just pure thc problem was shown to reduce nightmare, some people who have PTSD, so it's just say just so just because thc psychoactive doesn't mean that it's not a medicine and just to keep on the topic of of PTSD. In addition to that, we've identified mechanisms- of action. I know I know. There's one study, I think not him was on the was the authors of that study and he noticed that people with PTSD there is an over fifty percent decrease. In in levels of inanimate a name which is a naturally occurring yeah. You never know which is which is which is naturally current ink in the canal. It correct, so you can get that through through exercise which, excellent way to do it and that's part of
yeah the high that you get when after you exercise, but the other way you can get it is by using cannabis. So DC attaches those one receptors and get a release of Amanda might and dial can actually increase inanimate by another mechanism of action as well so different ways. We can raise raise level of of deficiency, so you know to me as a clinician if I I have someone who is not doing very well. You know they've been on a bunch of different medications. I've identified that the fts we have mechanism of action, we have studies and then again to you, don't discount my clinical experience right. I've been working for over five years, the dot would just with just with cannabis. I mean I do other medicines. I use prescribe other medicines well, but I've been doing Candace Medicine for for over five years, and you know there's a lot that that I've right so as much as I've learned, you know through studies and they're going
conferences, and things like that. You know for sure that the best resource as a clinician is, is to learn from your patience and and hear what your patients tell me and an the things that my patients tell me is that thc is really effective for the sleep at night and a lot my patients, especially my veteran patients, had done really really well with with that, and just just one further point to you, there was, I know it was. It was a twenty fifteen. I believe it was. There was a a meta analysis done. I can pull it off if, if we need to that indicated that a lot of medicines that are being used now for PTSD or just simply ineffective, and the other thing Is that there's never been a medison made specifically for PTSD, so all medicines that people are using or for anxiety or there for depression or for in some there are there for something else. You know, but when we look at a like a study that says people with PTSD have a lower level of and and might and and if you can increase the level of Ananda? Might you know that's a good way,
treat someone? It doesn't matter whether it's a vitamin, whether it's a hormone? If you long as you are correcting a deficiency, generally going to get excellent clinical results. So let me let me sort of try to frame this a different way. Alcohol reduces blood pressure. Alcohol in generally tends to reduce Cardiovasc events for people and during prohibition, you could actually get a doctor's note for alcohol as a medicine. Alcohol is not a medison. Ok, it's uh recreational intoxicant. It has some positive biological qualities and some negative biological qualities. An you know. There was an argument I think, intended to years ago. Should we recommend that people drink moderately one to two drinks a day and I think for the most part, the medical profession has come down on the side, saying: let's not do that. There's too many non cardiac negative side effects with alcohol.
Just on that note, though, Alex in Canada right now, I know the safe alcohol drinking guidelines are fourteen drinks week for men, twenty nine drinks a week for women, so basically to sue a day for men. One slash two are women, so you're saying: ok like there's: we don't see huge negative consequences at that level. Ok, that's that's fine, like that's a totally reasonable way to think about alcohol, but we're not saying that this is a medicine and I think that's where the confusion around a really around high thc cannabis lies and again I don't mean to say that your friends child is not benefiting, if you say here. She is benefiting. I believe you, what I'm saying is that's not good enough for science, we need randomized controlled trials and when those files had been done in a lot of them have been done. Joe, a lot of them have been done. They've almost unequivocally shown that cannabis doesn't work as a Medison, the
the actual police were beyond. These are very limited conditions like a king with their bill, so seated nausea, which obviously is terrible for people have it. But isn't you know, isn't that common, fortunately, um cannabis has been shown to work as a pain, reliever right, probably for the same reasons that alcohol works as a pain, reliever, sort of dulls. Your awareness of your pain, but even in that study, or in the woods, even in those studies, there mostly done against placebo, not against opioids or against and said like Ibuprofen, and there was a very big study for cannabis use in chronic pain over a multi year pure did in Australia that came out last year that showed that people who used cannabis had a head for pain and use more opiates at the end of four years than people who didn't so so argument. What medicine is that
body, though, had a lot of flaws in it, and the other thing is that you need to look at someone who is already using cannabis versus someone who is just using opioids. So if some, it is just using opioids and they want to come off cannabis you know, there's more off opiates. Sorry sorry come off of opiates with cannabis. You to pull. Studies have shown that that that can be affective and that's not was the what was done in the australian study that that you refer right. It's a more naturalistic approach and also to you know they didn't have access to medical marijuana during that whole during the whole time right. So those are self reported and they're getting it from your recreational sources, sure they weren't getting it from. That's a big, that's a big distinction now Alex like they were getting it from a doctor who prescribed the two of them. They were there with. This is so report. It study and people are gay cannabis that you know didn't really know what they're getting it. Wasn't they weren't given any information from a doctor, and that's why it's
Madison Alex because you can tell someone tell a patient to take a start amount of Cbd every single day, and when you take a certain every single day, it can reduce your symptoms and sometimes need to increase that, and sometimes you need to decrease. I think we should all medicine we. We should be really clear about the distinction, though, between cbt and marijuana, I mean what we're really talking about the cycle active version of it running. This is where, where you're saying it's negative, yeah you're, not you're, not really arguing that Cbd is, is negative. You know doctor hard is talking about he's talking about using this as a medison, certainly using the CD's title, his patience he's ordering them he's? Not writing them an authorization and and come back in a year when, when it's up he's he's being a physician- and you know- and I think to the extent that marijuana is medicine. We want people like him, so I admit it's Madison. No! No! No. I don't admit that. You just said that I don't think I just said.
I think the extent I'm trying to stop doing, but you know you said something else. It was really interesting to me and this came up in the book to set your clinician. You see sick people, and it was my my my my wife to doctor to she's a psychiatrist. That's how I sort of got in this, but my wife is a forensic psychiatrist less than a clinician these days. Her job is to evaluate people not so much to treat people. Your job is to treat people. You see sick people, you want to help them feel better and you don't want to tell them there's nothing. I can do for you, there's nothing. There's there's no hope for your pain. There's no hope for your PTSD. You want to help
SAM and I totally get that. But if you're an epidemiologist or researcher who's who's trying to guide, did you know the views on the medical practice of hundreds of thousands of doctors? That's not good enough, so you need to step back, and I think I think you know this this epidemiologist and in Britain who I talked to he said to me. He said you know. I try not to draw conclusions because so often when I try to draw them, I'm wrong yeah, and we need to be your own, careful about that right and and I'll. You know. One thing that was mentioned in your book, you know, is that you know you you off to you often safety national academies of science and engineering right, but you know Ziva Cooper, no she's, a member of that committee. I mean she put out on our twitter, I mean you can go to it from January, ninth of in nineteen. She says a wrist
in the recent year times editorial on cannabis and as a committee member which camp that which, by the chaos of the night, okay, let me think people contacts were came from right, but this is a a so when you sign up no it inside her. I said: look at your site. You said that the report and she's a member of that of that okay, so she said they were so most of the recent newer times editorial on Canis. As a committee member on NASA, which is that committee and cannabinoids support, we did not conclude that cannabis causes schizophrenia. Then the drug alliance policy also said the report did not reach that conclusion. So those are pretty too. Native sources that are saying that you know in your book. You didn't cite the research properly right and then also they're, saying that you left a lot out right. They said that they have found
an association between marijuana use and improved cognitive outcomes and individuals with psychotic disorders, that straight from the same report, and you failed to mention that right. So I think You know when we're writing books. Are we giving out information? You want to do it from the balanced Roach you don't want to just select a small amount of material that just going to support your study. You know I want to be truthful here. You know Joe's show is always been very, very truthful, Mean Joe said right right beginning. He doesn't think that that that cannabis is perfect for everyone and I think that either an in Canada, we have really strict guidelines to follow. You know, Basically, no one prescribe cheat seed, anyone under the age of twenty five and you the conferences and stuff that I go to know we don't really have to. Any discussions about that, like the doctors, don't really have many much of a backlash about that, so
hi my is the distinction, the age of twenty five for the decide that age, so twenty five basically is when you're you're, fine yeah as for is, is fully developed, and we need to look at the studies that to show you an association between between cannabis and and psychosis, it's almost all in adolescence. You know, I think that Alex only has one study and and is in his book that shows the extremely weak correlation between an adult using cannabis and then developing any type of mental illness later so you know, twenty five is is a is a good age, but it's definitely a you know kind of a a conservative ishe
H, but you know it's it's something that that we fall and I think that you know we've done well with that camera so Alex. Why did you leave those conclusions are so I will I will. I need to push back okay, so the National Gallery, medicine report was drama by committee of sixteen researchers. Ziva Cooper, isn't the one who's publicly said. The report said this, but I think that we should have emphasize that it all. So said this okay, what ok, what I wrote in the New York Times, Op Ed? What I wrote in the book is the plain language of the report and plain language is this cannabis use is associated with a risk of developing schizophrenia and other psychosis. The higher the use, the greater the risk. I may have a word or two wrong in that 'cause, I'm doing it from memory, but that's what it said and by the way the committee was very clear: they separated depression. They said there we don't
see is nearly as high risk for depression and psychosis, even though, by the way today, just today JAMA Psychiatry, the Journal of the American Medical Association psychiatry put out a meta analysis showing that cannabis is associated with depression and suicidal thinking. Actually, suicide attempts at a three and a half to one rate. This is this literally, was released today arm, but to but to go back. Z. Eva is one of sixteen members of that committee. So, if you're going to you're going to say that I misquoted the report, which I didn't, I quote it entirely accurately. You need to say well, why aren't the other fifteen members of that committee saying that I misquoted? Why is one person who works for the Cannabis research initiative at UCLA which takes money from cannabis, investors and users she's the one you said that I misquoted it? Maybe she maybe we ask why the other members of the committee are not speaking out against my book. Well,
I think that she was just one of the sixteen members that came out, but you can't really expect all the other members to potentially you'll? Come out with that, why not? Why not if I'm, if I did something wrong, if I misquoted well, some people will and some people won't. You know some people have you know the personality. Some people have the platform like him see that has a bunch of followers on our twitter people know who she is. You know a lot of people who do research actually you're not into social media at all, like I don't think you were at all for you. You had your book where you are yeah. America is not right. So, okay, yes, so it's a urine into social media at all. So you know, I don't think that most people on that committee are in our into social media. It was either just just happens to be in. You know. I even spoke to Ziva on the phone about this and you know- and she said that yeah you know I I don't that she agrees everything that was in the report, but she doesn't agree with your conclude
and to go back once are quoted from the report, but you're only quoting there, but you're only quoting the parts that site or sorry that back your your opinion, you're, not quoting the entire part like you left like. Why did you leave out the part that said they have found in sociation between marijuana use and improve cognitive outcomes and individuals with psychotic disorders right so you're leaving out that part. So why did you leave the party without that part? If you can find me a psychiatrist who thinks that it's a good idea for somebody with an active psycho case order that part? Would you leave out that part? Well, my book presents it makes a case right. It makes a case that this is a big issue, that we have not heard about at all and the reason that we haven't heard about it have a lot to do with the advocacy community and the way they presented this data for twenty five years. I wrote a book that is trying to break through a lot of noise so, but but still like it to
to get a balanced approach. Did you decide that you were only going to be only going to write about things that confirm your belief that you held when you writing this and what you were trying to push in the title. Working in the conclusion of the book. I think it's a really great question. I say The introduction, the book this book is not balanced. Okay, there's not a lot of evidence in there. If you, if you want to read about how, indeed can sit Teva strains are different than right, you know it. You're, not gonna, read that in this book this and but I will also. I also want to say this. I didn't come at this and I say this in the introduction of the book to as an anti cannabis. In fact, when my wife said to me- and she said to me over and over again in twenty fourteen and fifteen and sixteen these are the cases that I'm seeing these are the terrible things that people are doing after cannabis use I've sort of said her. First of all, why do I always have to hear about this at the dinner table? But, more importantly, you know why. Why is it
that maybe these people are using other drugs, maybe maybe you're, seeing a slice of the population that it's not representative? Why is it that I should believe this sounds like reefer madness to me and you know ultimately my wife was the one who went to interview actually, as I was talking to doctor hard about this. She grew up in in new from land to and she went to the Memorial University of Newfoundland Medical School and she went to Harvard and Columbia for her postgraduate training you know? Eventually, she got tired of me yapping back at her, and she said once you go read the studies yourself and it was that that led me to read to write this book ' 'cause. When I read the studies, I could not believe the strength of the evidence, Joe, but used so even in saying that you're still seeing positive results that you're excluding again There's this one there's this one sent me is not one once but but there are,
few sentences about how it may be that cannabis helps people's positive. It helps it helps. And people with psychosis- maybe maybe not wouldn't that qualifies Medison, not if it's no wouldn't be approved this Madison, if it's causing they have other psychotic episodes like these people, have psychotic breaks and improves cognitive function and people with psychotic breaks. So wouldn't that be something that you would prescribe is no one. No again, you need to think about how the FDA is looking at Madison. Now I understand the FDA's position sure, but I mean looking at it as Madison I mean if we could prove this through studies and through some sort of clinical trials. If it is, improving your iq two points on a test, I'm sending it is, I'm not. I think we have to look at that. I have to look at that, I'm not sure about coming. At the same time, it's making you flirted map right, no, no, it's too, but at the same time it's making you floridly psychotic you're. Not
it's not medison. Well, it's not necessarily the same time. One of the things that I read about schizophrenia was that there's people were trying to make a correlation between marijuana use in schizophrenia, but the problem with that correlation in what I read- and maybe you could help me on this- was that it's the exact same number that you find the general population is essentially one percent of the population has schizophrenia which is one out of one hundred people and when have marijuana users, you see essentially that same number Mirror Dan, so they're saying that small, that's not true hold on. Let me get a small number of people. What they were saying, essentially in what I read was that marijuana use was associated with onset of schizophrenia. With disputing this in this study, because they were saying because the same number is mirrored in the general, population again correlation does not equal causation right. I think you gotta tell him. That's not true.
So tell me what that means. So traditionally, yes, when we look at the stats, you'll see that you know what the people who use cameras first of the people who don't use cannabis, have very similar rates, but you're getting to be exact rates. You know it so in the: u? Yes, they say that, but the range for schizophrenia is between zero point. Twenty five to zero point. Sixty four percent globally, say it's zero point, thirty three to zero point: seventy five percent! So right there it's apparently lower in in the US and EU, is is has the highest percentage cannabis consumption in the world and do us so has a lot of people that are using high potency thc. So you know, I think that you really need to be be careful about throwing out. You know stats like that, because you, when you do look at at the start, that we have. It shows that, even though you know to keep that there's Lot of canvas use in the United States, schizophrenia
have remained the same, so I have to push back really hardly this. This is one of the great mass of legal as a okay. No one knows what the skin for any or psychosis rate in the is in the US right, because a lot of people are treated up. People are treated people I'll, get different diagnoses at different times and we have we have bad health care in the country and we have a lot of protections around mental health. In fact, in two thousand seventeen, then national Institutes of Mental health suddenly changed its estimate for the percentage of people with schizophrenia in the US. From one point, one percent to zero point: three percent did it with no public notice, and then this researcher said this is a miracle. They just cured two million people with schizophrenia and the and in response is that the director of the NIH said well, we actually don't know how many people have schizophrenia in the United nobody knows. Nobody knows if the rate is increasing. Nobody knows if it's decreasing the only countries where they can count noses on this
Any accuracy are in northern Europe because they have good health care 'cause. They have slightly less protections around sort of individual privacy, an mental health privacy, and so they are able to count cases and in Denmark and Finland, which are the two places where they've actually done this research. In the last twenty years, they've shown increasing rates schizophrenia, between about one thousand nine hundred and ninety five in about two thousand and ten, and that goes side by side, with increasing rates of cannabis use in the 90s. So people who are saying that there's no evidence of population wide increases in psychosis are just wrong. It's just possible there's other fellow, absolutely environmental factors is a bunch of other different things that you can. Let me sit around this. We absolutely don't have the evidence at this point to say that cannabis use in the USA is causing a population level increase in psychosis and schizophrenia, which are by the way those are sort of different illnesses, and we can talk about that too. But we don't have the evidence to say there's a definite increase, but what I'm
thing. Is that what you have been told that there is no increase in schizophrenia or psychosis rates in the USA that we don't know if that's true or no, we just do me. Ask you this. There has been proven that there's an increase in marijuana use. Is that correct, correct, absolutely how when did the Reese begin and how what how what percentage increase so that was, there was an increase in the 90s, an increase in use and impotency potency. You sort of bottomed out around one thousand nine hundred and ninety one, and then there was sort of a flat bottom. I mean it has increased since nineteen. No, no, no! No! No! No, no, the other, fifty percent! Since ninety two! So that's what a lot! Yes a lot in what you expect a corresponding increase in schizophrenic if there was any sort of correlation hold hold on. Let me just let me walk you through okay, it bottomed out in the early 90s I'll start increased again increased in the 90s flattened out between about two thousand and two thousand six, and since that has been going up again, especially in let's say the last three four years and the other things
potency in the last fifteen years has gone way up. I don't think anybody would dispute that ok many gonna. So what I'm saying to you is we don't know there is evidence there is. There is now evidence on a population of a basis in those other countries that schizophrenia and psychosis has gone up and there's for the first time in two thousand and seventeen there's data show serious mental illness, which is not the same as psychosis or schizophrenia in the US doubled between two thousand and eight and two thousand and seventeen in the in people aged eighteen twenty five and those are the people who are most likely to be using so for the first time, there's actually evidence of what you're talking about, which is a population. Why
increase now again, I'm not going to practice? Can I get you to clarify it should say serious mental health, so serious mental illness, so this was defined. There's a study called the national survey on drug use and health. It's done every year cover seventy thousand people federal government funds, it it's sort of the best data source we have on all this stuff. It showed that and they're not counting cases either. No, but let me just be as clear as I can. This nobody's counting schizophrenia cases on a national or even state level basis in the US but
say to people. Did you have depression so bad that you couldn't get out of bed? Did you you know? Were you hospitalized this year for psycho effort for any inpatient psychiatric reason and and if you look at those numbers in two thousand and eight three point seven percent- I merit maybe three point: eight percent of Americans, eighteen to twenty five reported at least one symptom, so they were categorized as having serious mental illness that year in two thousand and see teen. That number was seven point, five percent, so that's a double! So again I am not going to say that proves that the increase in cannabis use has caused this. This population sometimes but some nothing bad, has happened. And if you look at kids twelve to seventeen interesting Lee, they over that time period didn't have a big increase. Cannabis use in general. Teenagers are actually are pretty healthy,
although jewel in vaping. Maybe on doing that and those kids didn't have a population level increase serious mental illness. Can I stop you for a second there, because there's other factors so sure one of the big one is Yuval. Noah Harari has a great book twenty one lessons for the twenty first century. I read that it's great and one of the things they talk about is the onset of social media Johnson. He talked about that as well, and the the onset of social media was actually more heat and then Yuvan Karate, but the Johnson he talks about it with young people. Yeah, that's something huge american mind yeah. I think that so media and the pressures of social media have led incredible amount of young people too serious mental distress- and you know serious anxiety, serious depression and suicide amongst young girls has increased some fifty percent according to hate over the period of two thousand and seven two, I think two thousand. Whenever his book was written and I think
directly correlating that to the pressures of social media and to you know, anonymous online bullying and all these different factors that are affecting kids. So I think that that could be considered of far more significant new form of of distress to children and young people than even marijuana, I think it does it twofold 'cause. I think that you know what makes people really rest, maybe more so than than anxious, but definitely both is that when you compare yourself to someone else- and you know people, you know obviously that we've done all all humans have done that this, since, since history began, but now everything is online. You can compare your life to everyone, an it. People are doing all the time, and even person that- and we should talk about this too- is that the income gap getting is getting water. So it's like
people's lives. Not only are they getting, you know better than than than other people's lives, but it's, but now it's on it's on displace we've. We can see it where, as before your Maybe you would have seen it because it wasn't on social media, but now it's it's on social media. So she had this huge income gap that just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And then you have people going going on social media and they were comparing themselves and absolutely right, especially in that in that age population mean people under under the age of thirty. You know there definitely they're being bullied online. Like I see every day in my office, like literally every day, people are being bullied online and that's you know something I never had to you know to deal with a growing up. Yeah, and you know a lot of kids do have to have to to to deal with that. Just more notes to Einstein on the since Colorado has has has legalized cannabis important for for this this, the subject this topic they've actually seen. Marijuana rates decrease. So it's important for people to know that you know
John, no, no, no, no, they have yeah your TD teen use our overall use. Overall, I use is going up. Teen uses for overall uses up yeah materials, but that's the category that talking about under under thirty right, teen years, you would classify as part of that category. So in Colorado we have seen a decrease. Do you think that's because of the lack of because it's not a legal, it's not as exciting to them. Part of it for sure you know, and I mean part of it. Like one worry I had, you know, I haven't looked into the statistics. Yet was you know when you're growing up and when you're in high school? You know if you want to be part of the you know, cool crowd, so to say what you usually drink or smoke pot. You know that's what some people do. I hope that that doesn't change because pot seen as medicine. I hope that you know people don't know, move on to do something you'll harsher because they don't see pot as as cool.
Right. So that is what I meant it, because it's legal yeah. So I gotta push back on. Ok, thanks! So everything you said about social media, sound, you know, it's sort of intuitively sounds correct right. The problem is the data doesn't support this at all The data shows that teenagers and uh twelve to seventeen. Those kids are healthier than they were ten or thirty years ago they drink less, they smoke less. They have sex later the fewer abortions they are healthier, ok and their mental health. Doesn't you, have changed that much based on the Nsduh data. Okay, the data shows a big change in kids, eighteen to twenty five. They go to college, something goes wrong for a lot of those kids, at least in the last few years now but when I met you when you're talking about suicide rates, suicide rates are there, especially with young girls, who are
only more affected by social media they've, gone up significantly since the rise of social media. That is the big factor, people who are almost like a second more so than cannabis, use and that's a fact, so so you're so you're talking about a tiny, tiny number of people who not only no, it's not a tiny number. It's a fifty percent increase of people that commit suicide, their young girls, the people who commit suicide in the United States are middle aged white man, and but young girl, but women, you're, discounting these young girls are committing suicide, to fit your statistics or to fit your conclusions, know what I'm saying is: that's a tiny, tiny number, but it's it's! A fifty percent increase is not a tiny amount. This is something we can look up. Well, let's find out what the numbers are, because the link when Johnson Hate was on the podcast you discussed it- I mean he should so this chart and it's an alarming increase, direct correlating with the increasing use of social media. Sure and I'm not such a push back against. That seems to be a factor what I'm pushing back
this is the idea that kids, twelve to seventeen generally are less healthy than they or ten or twenty years, and no one saying there less healthy you just they're more health yeah, I'm saying there are more healthy right now we're saying that ill health has nothing to do with cardiovascular. No, I mean I mean mentally healthy. I mean they're less likely to use drugs that are less likely to have sex, but it's more likely to commit suicide. That is a time any tiny number. What are you talking about if it's fifty percent increase? It's a huge difference. We should look up the number we're gonna ever gonna, I would Johnson hates work is like very well respected, and what I'm? What I'm saying to you is that there's a clear increase in psychological distress in kids and young adults, eighteen to twenty five, okay, there's a clear increase and
those are the people who are most likely to be using cannabis, research that people that are most likely on social media as well, and that's a stressful period of the lighthouse. Still two thousand and seventeen. Can you still living at home like eighteen to twenty five? Then you gotta go to university. You gotta deal with all these courses, I'm willing to concede- and I've said at the beginning of the program that I think the marijuana with some people is not beneficial and, in fact could be negative but understand why you're not willing to admit that social media has a significant and on a dented impact on young people that we've never seen by war. I would totally agree with that, but I don't think that you can say based on the population level. They did that the impact is all negative. It may be less if we were saying that the impact is all negative. What we're saying is that fifty percent increase in suicide with young girls, but that's you. Let me hear it. Let me give you an example: when you were fifteen- or I was fifteen, maybe you got really drunk right and wound up in a bathtub
Maybe kids today are less likely to do that because of social media because they know it's going to be on Instagram forever. I don't think that's true. I don't think that's proven, and I know it's not that there's anything that would point to that. Well, I can tell you is proven. Is that kids today, I'm talking about teens one thousand two hundred and seventeen have less psychological distress by all these measures. I'm talking about their actual behaviors are better or a better course. That's a moral judgment, but there are healthier than they work, ten or twenty or thirty years ago, they're less likely to have sex they're less. What, when they're fourteen, which I think most of us as a good thing, they're less likely to be drinking they're, less likely to be smoking. Those are good things. This will be less likely to be drinking less likely to be smoking. Less likely to have sex does not correlate to positive mental outlook and less suicide. Well, yes, there's I agree there. We look. Let's look at the numbers, but depression and suicide, or the very difficult things to measure right depression. Well,
so it's easy to raise its power. Its award number depression is look at this spike bottom number is so okay, I mean this is what I'm saying the death rate. First of all, this is this is okay, the death rate for girls, age fifteen to nineteen is four per one hundred thousand jobs, a forty it's at a forty year high right, so I mean you're would be hard put to say, that's a huge spike. It was three per one hundred thousand in nineteen. Seventy five and it's a little over four in twenty fifteen. That's not that's one case, one hundred thousand girls. Yeah, I don't know what the I don't know. What the actual facts are. I'm looking at this right now: suicide rates for teens fifteen to nineteen years of his. This is something we have to study sure and we will have this discussion until he was right spike for boys in the nineteen nineties yeah, because at about ninety five one in north, if you put a middle aged man on the street, you have to you have to blow out the ceiling like
and people the suicide crisis is. It is, unfortunately, crisis of age okay, I I would agree with that. I think, will we we actually talked about that. We, yes, Sir, with Andrew Yang that suicide amongst men in their fifties and then they start to feel useless yeah and especially if they lose their jobs. But what Johnson he is pointing to is a direct correlation between social media use, depression and suicide amongst young girls. Thank for finding out what is it. This is the article it's from is from this suicide for teen girls, the highest it's been in forty years, is social media to blame right. So, ok uhm new data, released Thursday by the Atlanta based Centers for Disease Control and prevention, suicide rates amongst fifteen nineteen year old girls doubled between two thousand and seven and two thousand and fifteen reach
forty year high. I would say that significant again, I would end- and it's obviously a terrible thing when anybody come into that, but once on two per one hundred thousand or so we actually it's it's five. What what for two to four? Okay? Sure that means for every one hundred thousand american girls in two thousand fifteen five committed suicide. That's not a very high number, but I mean that's also someone who's pushed to the extreme, taking their life, how the girls are XP, rinsing, severe depression, but don't commit suicide. That's the real factor, because this is what I hate directly connects to social media. Again, the fifty percent increase we're talking about a relatively small number, because not as many girls commit suicide as men, but still this could talking about. You were talking about depression right, and you were talking about these significant factors that would lead people to be to have poor mental health. This could be a huge factor in this. Right- and I think that too it leads people to suicidal ideations and depression and anxiety mean right here we're just looking at
Dutch is the worst end point possible, which is very rare amongst girls periods right or not or less it is common. It is yes, men do commit suicide more than women do, but we really To be careful about that, because you know suicide is, is the end, that's the worst thing that could possibly happen. So what about you know all the all the things leading up to it are other people who are who don't commit suicide, but you'll suffer from terrible depression, suffer from terrible anxiety, suffer from terrible insomnia. You know those people are accounted for in that graph. I agree and what I'm saying is that cannabis use has spiked in the I did states. In the last fifteen years, an teens notwithstanding, we've seen a large degradation in a number of the social outcomes, and now Today we have a JAMA psychiatry paper that looked at a bunch of other studies that said cannabis
who's in teenagers is associated with depression, suicidal ideations and suicide attempts in people once they get to. Eighteen. That may be a factor what it could possibly be a factor yes, but it might. It might also be that these kids are depressed because of social media and they're using category for their depressed, because their friends died. I'll be right over. There is a lot of potential conflicts. You know we are conceding the fact that you just said again that study was done on adolescence. You know Joe, and I have both. Conceited, multiple times that we do not think high Chizik cannabis is good for People in that age category, but you know just just to back up just a little bit again. You know I don't like I said earlier- that you I don't prescribe cheat generally to anyone under the age of twenty five most other doctors in Canada don't, but I think that we should be.
Scribing cb teach these kids like a lot of those kids. You know who have a suicidal ideation depression, I mean you know you could never do a study on it, but you know how many of those kids wouldn't have committed suicide, or wouldn't be feeling this way They were using Cbd because we know SSRI, selective, serotonin, reuptake inhibitors, you know which are most commonly prescribed medication for depression and anxiety, even in adolescence. We know that they can increase suicidal ideations that's been shown. I mean it's written right on right on the package so again like is the clinician you have to treat your patience if you're just treating people with something: that's it's not effective or that has horrible side effects. You're going to other alternative treatments. A lot of people have have shown are sorry, have had excellent results with Cbd in that age category you know, I've had had it done in my practice and lots of other physicians positions had done
in their practice. So it's really important that when we're talking about teenagers- and we were talking about that study- you're talking about high potency thc in Adolescence- that Joe and I both concede that your thc is- is not a good medicine. Look if GW or somebody else can can do it a study with Cbd in depression or some other cannabinoids and non intoxicating, cannabinoids and depression and get it approved. For that that be great, we need. We need all the treatments for depression and for and boy do we need treatment for psychosis that we can get totally agree with it, and I'm really glad to hear you say you don't think that adolescents should be using hypo or any you know I'll call them and they and they should try to also you'll stay away from the other. So I wanna, I wanna push back on this on the alcohol verses, a canvas for teens, and I know, that this is a common feeling among among people
Brooklyn among people in LAN sort of right. When I mean right thinking, I'm sorry, you know. Sort of general center left to left everywhere is that cannabis is better for teens than alcohol. I totally disagree with that canvas alcohol with no one saying that I'm just saying alcohol is bad too. Ok, then we agree, but yeah I mean I think we have heard this right. So I'd rather have my kids smoking pot. My sixteen year old, I think that's crazy. You have to really be careful with any thing that severely perturbs your sense of reality when you're a young kid in your trying to form your vision of the world, I think unpack. What we're saying here is that there is an increase in mental health disorders amongst young kids that corresponds to the increased use of social media and may correspond to the use of cannabis, but that's not necessarily proven what we guarantee almost universally, as these kids on social media
also to, I think, much more likely. They're on social media then use cannabis. I think a lot of them use cannabis. I don't think all of them. I think all of them are on social media, absolutely yeah. I think that you know almost every single kid. These days does these days has a cell phone and they have some type of social media account. I'm worried about kids use it everything, I'm worried about them using Val, I'm worried about the user. Xanax get describe benzos audience and worry about them using stimulants are. After all, I guess I prozac, I think I think psychiatrists give out a dd medison much too frequently. I owe one hundred percent agree an. I think that it has a severe impact on kids when they're trying to study for when they're trying to take their seats when they're trying to get into a good college. I know so many people that are on that ship. I know so many people, whether their journalist,
I know comedians. I know a lot of fucking people were on Adderall, yes yeah, and you need to develop that kind of like toughness when you're young, like you shouldn't, just be like fourteen years, and then you run into your first trouble in your life and then you reach for a pill. That's terrible right! It's a terrible coping coping mechanism, so you know when you each vector kids at a early age and when you tell them it's such a terrible thing to tell someone. Oh you're, fourteen years old, you have sure depressive disorder you're going to take this pill. You need for the rest of your life, and that said to people all. I will only say that all you have a biochemical deficiency, and this is what you need. We need kids to be tougher. So you need you need them to build up some some resiliency so that you know when they do Go through hard times know they have better coping mechanisms like Joe talks about die
exercise all the time. I talk about diet and exercise all the time. Clearly you guys live it and that's kind of how I got my my star on on social media. It is through diet and exercise. Yeah, I think exercise is a big one for yeah to me. It was a gigantic factor for me personally, when I was fifteen years old, I really got into martial arts and it changed my life. I just changed my life by alleviating so much anxiety. Given me so much more relaxed. My parents talk about the like the there's. Two use: there's you before martial arts things you after martial art, but you have relatively young kids on yes, so do I an point? They love the. Places. I mean I mean we have to fight our kids before and there are three and six at this point. They don't have their own Ipad or Iphone or anything, but but you give it to them for five, it's like crack. It's like you, gotta, tear down to their hand yeah. My kid just turned their shoulder when I try to get the Ipad from her they're like no, no one more one more like crazy, it's a little, it's very fun and exciting for them. You know and look it's
entirely negative, like we have this uh, this tv set up with this dance game that they play an they're, sweating and dancing, and after it's over the giggling and laughing it's in a massive alleviator of physical stress, because it's like they're constantly gotta all this thing and it's it's a exercise. Routine yeah, I mean they're, really they're cardio they're there for cardio vascular rate gets up there, they really feel good afterwards. So it's not entirely negative, but it's mostly negative yeah yeah. If you have like, I don't know, is it Nintendo, Wii or whatever it is yeah. You can do it. It's an xbox with this little thing that scans it or you actually can use your phone and if you hold a phone like I'll give them my phone. My wife will give the other one her phone and like the phone show, is how you're moving it's very weird right. So like like you mimic this thing that the person on the screen is doing. But that mean that's. Why
one thing that could be considered positive, I think. For the most part, the real issue is social pressure and anxiety. That comes from kids talking shit about each other, and they do they push buttons. They push buttons on each because they know that they can, but they don't understand the common part of high school it has, but you would get free from it when you went home, you're not free from it ever now. These just waking up in the middle of the night and checking their twitter account and finding their friends are talking about them, whether it's on Facebook or whatever, and this girl from school that fucking bitch and she commented on my Youtube video. This is what they're dealing with you know, look at her with her fat face lol and then this little heroes like oh, that is that's a severe severe factor that no I had to consider before, and it makes you almost not want to go to school. If this keeps you don't go to school because because of that 'cause, they don't want to have to deal with. You know someone said some. I see it in my office all the time. Someone said something to them last night on social media. So I didn't go to
tool today because they don't want to have to face that. Like that's something that you know, I generation never ever act right to face, but I do I mean I do. I think we're a little bit off topic here in terms of what time of depression and and right we're talking about, a faction sure could be considered as big, if not bigger, but social media wants people to get psychotic. Okay, I don't know about that. Well, I don't listen. This is why I don't know bout that severe anxiety, lack of sleep, depression, absolute, we are correlated with alt locations on social media, sure sure, but social interactions that are severely negative, they're correlated with poor mental health. The good news is the brain is a relatively strong and
for some people. But if you look at sort of well, it's not for everybody. Some people are in a really bad situation: maze of psychosis, ok, again, it's less than one percent for schizophrenia, which is the most severe version you had sort of bipolar disorder with psychosis, depressive psychosis, other kinds of psychosis. Maybe you get about three to four percent of the population is going to be diagnosed Nick Lee with one of these illnesses over the course of their life. So so ok, on the one hand, that's a lot of people. On the other hand, most people are not going to get psychotic and MOE at the time. If they do, there are genetic component, that's obvious. 'cause psychosis and schizophrenia often do run in families, or an environmental component- that's that's pretty obvious. I mean people can get psychotic brain tumor can make them psychotic. They can you know it late in life. Get dementia that make some psychotic there's oftentimes a pretty clear, organic cause? Okay, so when we're so so the brain is a relatively strong and healthy
and it takes a lot to break it. And that's why I mean that's a bowl. It is a bold statement, but again I would not. I would not agree with that at all. Really, you think. No ok! I mean I'm not saying that people Look at the press takes a lot to break. People are depressed, although depressed I'm talking about the child that Fuckin' antipsychotic medication was the number one prescribed medication that crazy, like people say to me, you know that people used to say. Oh I'm on antidepressants among on anti anxiety medication. Now people like that parties and stuff saying like Oman Cerec well, I'm just thinking like that. Just tell a bunch of people that, like they're on anti psychotic right, what waits where the people don't know that Sir corn, and at our bill of fire and ice iconix right because even sort of marketed as outside the class when in reality, they're part of the class, but I I got to push back on you a little bit the
sales numbers for those those are expensive. Drugs they're, not the most prescribed drugs in the country hold on Abilify was the most prescribed drug in the United States. Should look that up? We know we have looked at it. We've talked about it on the podcast 'cause, it's insane. That is insane, and we do we go to. This is a good time to talk a little bit about the about genetics after we come look at this is we can tease out a few things by looking at genetic? this anti psychotic Abilify is the biggest selling prescription drugs used to be a top seller drugs to be expensive. So widely use Abilify is both it's the 14th most scribe brand name medication. So it's 14th, but fucking that crazy and of all the people with actual diseases. This is the 14th most.
I brand name medication it retails for about thirty dollars a pill will DR, I mean doctor, comprise a did. This is getting prescribed as an add on anti depressant fulsome people. What that means to struggling man yeah like like life, is hard for a lot of PS like very hard. I am very difficult, okay, so a lot people needs, I think, sometimes at the end of the day or during the day, to help them get through the day. Can it's? You know, especially the Cbd component, and also the chief see component when used properly is okay, like I tell people all the time I've made I've made social media posts about it that like, if you need to use a little bit of cannabis at the end of the day, just to help you sleep, man, you're doing great and you're staying away from like drugs and, like you know, tuition gambling. All these other brutal little habits. People have, if you're doing all that
you're doing you're doing pretty good overall right. So gambling is not bad bro little bit again. We want to bet on some fights. You go it's absolutely by the way, I think giving people handheld devices that are inherently addictive, where they can bet on sports every fifteen seconds. A super bad idea, but we could one hundred percent agreed to talk about that too. But you know it's one thing's benefited me with social media is my eyesight is going as I've gotten older. I can't even read my twitter feed. I have fought these people. I don't know how to read it. If I don't put my glasses, I don't know what the fuck they're saying- oh my god, so so so good, but people don't get depressing it. Actually, I'm saying psychosis is a different thing. Ok, ok, I think we are the discussing overall mental health. Yes, I mean I look, I'm saying this because I really think that this is something that I've made a big turn over the a few years with myself that I don't bathroom break. I don't
marijuana is as safe as I used to think it is, I used to think it was benign. I really used to think there was no big deal, but I have a friend that I discussed the other day, who was a really confident fuckin' muscular handsome man that never did anything and he took a marijuana edible to go to sleep and for two week, this guy was. This is a different guy, nothing! I was talking about not Rafiah, no different guy. He took it and eat appearance, suicidal thoughts and and all these eat he had like severe consequences. I think that the human beings? We've very so much biologically that to just Lakers overall, blanket statement. What's good, for you is good for me is irresponsible, simple and I've been irresponsible, saying that before well. Well, one reason it's interesting. What reason I think that alcohol is so widely accepted, despite all the problems it causes an again, alcohol can certainly cause problems. Is that alcohol effects most people pretty much the same way. You know and you sort of know, if what somebody looks
when they have one drink, when they have five drinks, have ten friends, I've got some friends that get those gerbil eyes ever see when people get sharp guys. I just got you know they start talking crazy and like well, maybe, but you sort of know that and you sort of know how long it's going to take to clear your body. Yes, cannabis is so different, it's a really complicated drug and it does affect different people in different ways and also the tolerance has changed radically yeah. So so you know people say two about two milligrams of thc Milligrams of that's like one drink for somebody who you know who doesn't use, but if you're, if you're a tolerant user, you can
two hundred milligrams a day. That's eighty drinks yeah, it's a weird drug and then there's the issue of eating it. Yes, when you need it, your body produces something called. Eleven high drop, your metabolite, it's a far more cycle, Accu, your all along for the ride when that happened. Yes, you are yes and can take days for it to get out of your system, and I know many people of eating marijuana edibles, and then they called me up the next day, like dude, I'm still hot yeah yeah, so so so so I think I think the legal causation community have sort of said for years, like basically no downsides to this there's only upsides. The cops will boss smokers they'll be tax revenue. All these people have a way to get high, that's clearly safer than alcohol and unfortunately that's just not true. I think you're right and I think the the issue that people from what I've read are having with your book or people that are marijuana advocates. It think that your position is unbalanced and that you've ignored the positive aspect.
Of thc in terms of like, when he's talking about cognitive benefits, for people with psychotic episodes, and that you are only focusing on the negative people plead guilty to them. 'cause. I think that for twenty years, people have only heard the positive right by. I think. That's I think that's also I'll plead guilty that myself 'cause. I think that I've only been discussing the positives and uh things that I've tried very hard to do and one of the things I've learned how to do from doing this podcast and experiencing criticism and communicating with a bunch of different people with a lot of different viewpoints is examine my own positions and try to figure out. Am I coming at this from a truly balanced position, or am I trying to support a conclusion that I started out with and I'm trying to you know somehow or another backup, my own work or back up my own, my own statements,
and and sort of prop them up, instead of being really honest and objective, it's very difficult to do this. I wrote a book called tell your children the truth about marijuana mental illness and violence. Your, I don't think you can. You can think of that. That book is going to be compendium of the pros and cons of well. If you want to tell your children the truth, though, you really do want to tell them the pros and cons right and- and you did indicate Alex you said you know, we should tell people the truth yeah in the book right. So you know, I think that when you're telling and you're saying that you're telling the truth and Alex I'm agreeing with you that you're telling part of the truth but part of the truth, is a little bit deceiving and deceptive it in some ways right. You want to tell the whole truth. When you tell the whole truth, then you give the whole store and then people can actually make a good form decision based upon that. If people are going to just read one part of the story, then of course there
I make a decision just based upon that one part they're not going to make it. You know and and and informed us based upon all of the price and because of that people are going to make some very poor choices. I completely agree with that, but to me the last twenty years have been an exercise in the other side, in the legalization side, doing very, very good job talking up its argue and essentially there's almost nobody ever said this one guy Kevin Sabet, what about Jeff sessions, but she had the fucking God Dam Attorney general was telling people that good people don't smoke marijuana and that's literally a quote yet he says yeah, thank God that little morons not in office anymore, but that's a terrible thing to say sure people don't smoke. Marijuana is a lot of wonderful people who smoke marijuana. It's just not true, and by the way. I think this is a personal choice. Ok, especially for adults, and you can make bad personal choices. You go. Look I play cards, I love to play poker.
Did it on this trip to Lii didn't get to go to a poker room, but you can go a new casino and you can see people have long range flight, daughter in law places close by America to incur ARI used to make a living. Doing that I struggle with common, don't encourage me, but you can go casino and see. People have lost their houses, it doesn't mean the gambling should be illegal, but it also means that there's less and more dangerous forms that device her hand were. You can bet on what the next pitch is going to be. If I can be more sick, yeah, that's more dangerous than my having to drive to the commerce and play there and one one hundred percent or ninety eight percent thc that an eighteen year old, babes, Isal more dangerous than a five percent. You know Cbd, fifteen percent thc product, the doctor heart might suggest his we shouldn't use once a night to go to some degree, but that that's the message that we should be putting out there right. We shouldn't just be you know focusing on one side of the story. Like that part, you know should also be included in the book and like your book.
You know in some ways has made me rethink, The way that I write you know because my first book I was co author with Jeremy Carlson called friendly fire. You know my, book that I'm writing now is called cannabis for Ptg. So it's how to transform post dramatic stress into post, traumatic growth right, because I feel that we all know examples of people that have encountered really difficult obstacles in their life and some people have succumbed to that stress- they've gone down the wrong path, kind of thing and then other people, I've that stress to their advantage and they've actually become better because of it and you see cd and thc can both help facilitate that process. When you're, looking at someone like like a veteran, for example, the hall song with who's PTSD is someone who doesn't leave their home and they can't sleep at night so like when. I see that in my office a lot of still believe in their home like five to ten days a month right. So
we give him cbd- and this is really important for people understand. We D has been shown to decrease. Learned fear, that's incredible right! So if you can get people outside the home because I'm not talking about again who's, you know, I'm too nervous to like go to a you know at the bar with like their friends or I'm talking to people who, like it's difficult for them, to go to the grocery store, just like pick up a few things. So those are the type of people that I see. My practice Cbd is really excellent. For that day, when you look at you know the but I'm component, you know, th see again, is excellent for reducing nightmares, that's been shown in studies and it was even shown with one pharmaceutical drug now alone. Again, I don't really he's now blown very much because it's only one can nab annoyed and I do believe in the entourage effect and using all of the cannabinoids. So I don't use it that much, but that shows she came reduce nightmares. And you know if you have, if you have PTSD, I mean if you talk
to someone who has PTSD and again this is this comes from a clinician's point of view. They will tell you, I will try any and that's the same way when you get with. Like you know the parents of of of kids who have seizures all day. Nobody wants to see that that and like Alex you, if your, you ever started, getting getting, which you know. I hope I hope they don't, because it's it's terrible. You know what what it can do to people, but Winnie, when, if that ever happened, you know, I would hope that you would consider c, b d as a potential treatment ig. I finish he's that he's not against. I think we have to be really clear as tension Nick C B. Do you know if we can get all I don't know, I don't think anybody is there. No one really is arguing, except maybe the federal government in certain levels is arguing against C B D. That's probably some push back from the pharmaceutical and the reality is Cbd is proven to be at
as far as I've read very safe and very effective for a bunch of different disorders, especially those that are about reducing in this, I have something do with inflammation or seizures yeah one of my good friends. His son has developed seizures and c b d knocked it out to skilled control. Your art is very recently. You know if you're somebody who's a you know, who's a canvas user. You are missing all our users. Why do you think it is a people? You know in legal states where they can really express a preference. They can go into a dispensary know exactly what they're buying WHI is it that they want such high potency thc product 'cause. They get used to that you, your tolerance, develops. You builds up, but you know what every year we do. This thing called sober October. Will we don't do any no drinking? No no pot, and we do do some sort of crazy challenge, was mean three my but and when we do,
our woods. It's very interesting how your tolerance is a radically reduced like us all smoke pot at the end of that month and I'm like holy sh. I got. I don't even know what I'm talking about mid sentence and I'm just but bullets greet where. As you know now, like I smoked a little weed last night, did some standup had a great old time? There's no no issues with it at all, but I'm used to it and if the weed that I saw I assume you don't smoke, but I do not if you and me, were together last night and I gave you hit, my joint you'd- be still there in the corner in the fetal position. What in the fuck is going on 'cause the marijuana is ridiculously powerful, but once you're accustomed to it once your body acclimates, it's really not that big of a deal problem is you we're dealing with a lot of habitual daily users, an for those people, like my friend Joey Diaz there, video of him giving this other comedian uh? How many Milla stars of death Tilly
when we give Owen, would it give? Oh, I think just one you've ruined his life in about two hundred two hundred five thousand two hundred and fifty or and went out Joey made a video, but the date changed. Owen's life, like literally talk to guys head up like he went outside and he vanished he's gone. That's cannabis, psychosis, yeah! Well, I think I think, there's a real argument to be made its particular with him. I was going to make two points on that, so you definitely came develop a tolerance and I tell people all the time trying take at least one three week break, but studies, show that if you stop for four weeks really all you're sectors return and be like you've, never use candles before yeah that's a much and that's even with people who who are really really heavy users. I can go back and and get the study, but I mean do
these people are using I'm pretty sure it was like close, like seven joints a day. So really heavy users and snoop dogs are good examples. I mean my friend Tony Hinchcliffe is good buddies with Snoop Dogg and he said snoop. Oh just smokes all day, and he just like is always high and you know like what do you do when you're not high is like what he's like? I'm never not high, so everything he does. He is high as fuck literally everything he does like for that guy. It's not that big of a deal and for the way he what is life like just a relaxed easygoing guides, no problem, you can be high all day and live his life and he's obviously wildly successful with this strategy. Yeah lovely successful- and the second point I was going to I was going to make on that too, though, was there does not appear to be any taller at the Cb2 receptor so chiefs, I just to the c b one receptor and that's and that's what we know we can get tolerance. You know some people, you know they have some pain, the use in t c, and sometimes I need a little bit more same some time to sleep. You know the
we see it will work and then will stop working with the two. We haven't seen that meaning like the people who get get seizure control jet. Really they don't need to increase the dose like the girl I was talking about earlier. I first describe. I think she was twenty inches by twenty she's. Twenty five, now. She's never increased, or does she just use the same out to c b d for the last? Listen right like it works for you to do it. You know. I think we should really stop talking about. I just I just want to make a note on the on the tolerance of zero one. I just want to make a note that C b, two the doesn't appear to be taught yeah. It's just there's just such a significant impact when it when it comes to especially Adam thc. So this is a significant impact on people's state of mind. It's not always good. The fact we were talking about this when you were out, but
that's why I so I had an interview. I was that guy was doing the radio interview on the Acela from from DC to New York last month and this woman came in and was Baltimore. She sat down next to me and finish the interview and she said she said I couldn't help overhearing. I thought Jesus like she. She's, a pothead or she's just annoyed that I was doing this, but no I said you know I was in Seattle last month. She, the woman, was in her early thirties she's, a lawyer married, she said, and a friend of mine said to me: let's, let's have it was doing inedible. She said I took it. We bought a small dose, we for small those I took half of it, so I think she took like five milligrams. If that and she said she said, I got so paranoid, she said I couldn't sleep all night. Fortunately, my friend took and didn't have any problem and sort of watched over me, but she said the worst part. Was it took me weeks
weeks for the anxiety to fail, and I said I said: do you have? Do you have a history of mental health problems? She said. No, I don't. She said that I'd I'd used. You know I'd smoked in college Anna. This was just a totally different expert. I think there's a big problem with education, the big problem with the education that edible marijuana, as we talked about before I think you were in the bathroom. The eleven hydroxy metabolite is it's processed by the liver. It's a radically different truck radically different, and it's really a psychedelic in a very for me personally, edible marijuana and floatation tanks. I might as well be taking a fucking bucket of asset. It is crazy, God Dam experience now I personally enjoy being paranoid, and I know this sounds crazy, but I think with me gives me- and I think I lived a pretty blessed life- and I like
I like the feeling of paranoia because it allows me to explore. Maybe some area like maybe is it a specific paranoid that you have to freak out man? I think I have maybe an abundance of confidence. Maybe I have too much right, maybe I'm too successful what I like about the paranoid and comes with edible marijuana is it allows me to check myself allows me to put myself examine all of my behavior in the darkest recesses of my mind, my thoughts and and get a gig gives me a person, it makes me a nicer person, so it makes me go just a little tiny bit he's just like just like the other psychedelics. I think it just gives you just a little bit in Nocturne ego. Just little I mean some people use it and like at the end of the day, and then you know like like Jose. I think it makes you reflect sometimes bad and more objectively, meaning that, like
Maybe you had encounter with someone early in the day and then late at night, or you took up a bit like. Oh man, things a little bit different. You know like that happens to people all all the time it just it. Forces you to reflect in a different state Sometimes, when you reflect in that state, you come up with thoughts that that you just want to come up with you, like my patients, say to me all the time like it just kind of breaks this, like. Give state that I have I'm just able to to to to break out of I state and think logically, People say that to me all the time, but see your to me you're talking about something different and it works for you right, you're, paranoid, is it sounds more almost existential it's. How can I be better person? What am I doing wrong in my life? It's not my wife
is poisoning me more there's. No! No! No! No joke like this is fun. When you're schizophrenic can you can now use it or you know, or the cops aren't going to bus through the door and shoot me. Ok, yeah, it's a different thing and that's why that's why Marin Marijuana drives this extreme violence in some people or those people need to get their phucking shitt together? Well, that's possible too. Well, I mean yeah, I mean listen it. It may need millions aren't really coming bro, but they may need to be intervened before and two joes point, though I've shown in studies that if you make an intervention other out side of the psychotic symptoms, you can actually reduce the incidence of violence and also to I think it's. You know a good point. I was going to mentioned earlier to bring up genetics because we are teasing now genetics for people and we are discovering that certain
will do have certain genetics that do predispose them to certain cannabis Sortis right, so you involved with involved with the company. That's doing that right now we're trying to create this genetic test for people right three genes that we've identified so far, you know. One of them is the Ma Pk fourteen Geno type, and that has been shown. I want to be associated with a dab in brain volume when you do use cannabis and there's two other jeans that asked one and uh a d m m two genotype you'll. Both of those have also been shown to to be associate with cannabis. But again you know how we people have them. PK. Fourteen is roughly about eight percent is what we're seeing the one is around four percent and the ADM two is around is around five percent, so that's cool that that's almost twenty percent of the population but we're seeing. But if we can, identify
I love that stuff lines main yeah, it's working. So if we can identify note that the people who are at risk, then we can. Ebli potentially you know, use the medicine in a way where only the people who don't have These genetics are using the Madison and then for the people who do have the genetics and they stick mostly to Cbd. I just think you know that that's a better approach than just, just kind of prohibiting cannabis or saying that you know we shouldn't use it at all or saying that it's not Madison. I think they should be held to the same standard as any other medicine, and I think that if we had incredible medicine that work for some people- and it didn't work for others than what we would do, you try to figure out. Why, and you know I've doing that my company's been doing that it's cold and that life you know for full disclosure. I am on the board and that left at dot com, and you know, and when we we use. These different
these different strategies, then we can actually reduce the overall harm and that should be another thing that we can add into the mix because for sure, there's people who are definitely more predisposed mental illness and definitely more predisposed to to psychosis I mean there do seem to be some people who just it breaks, really fast, and I'm not sure why I mean again, it's probably genetic, there's yeah. I think, but I think it's when you eat you mentioned. You know you, your your friend whose whose child has autism and- and you said well, you know I if that, if that were my child, of course, I would want to do anything possible. But I have to tell you in the last month, since the book came out, I've heard the other side of this ok, I've heard from so many parents whose children and in many is high functioning children college graduates, because by the way, those are the people who have read the book or heard about the book. But the resources to stay involved with their kids when they have these terrible brakes who have gone completely off the rails and
The worst story that I've heard so far came from a woman in Connecticut whose son or graduated from high referred. You know it's. It's a collagen in east and down, you know sounds like a really good guy. He wanted to yeah, you know, teach disadvantage. Kids, he had a girlfriend who was going to med or was a premade trying to go to med school. They moved to New Mexico and, for some reason, the guy decided to start smoking. This was two thousand and twelve and within a few months he lost everything. Ok, the girlfriend had left. He lost his job. He had his first patient hospitalization. Now this is a family with money. Ok, this is Connecticut Bourbon and they have spent the last six years trying to save their son and they have failed that she. Told me that they've spent more than half a million dollars, he was hospitalised at Harvard he had the best treatment. None of it's made a difference to him
What is the symptoms are so so so he's he's completely schizophrenic now and he's completely paranoid, and he believes- and this is the this- is that so his his girlfriend is long gone because he's tried. Cvd are that's a good I think he's continue to use cannabis. I don't know if you use Cbd, but let me just tell you where he is now. Okay, so he's and these guys had a really bad delusion. His delusion is that his girlfriend has died. They have been replaced by a robot, so that's the kind of delusion that lead you to kill people, and so, and so this guy's been now hospitalised seventeen times. He's he's gone, he's he's on the streets of Houston. She doesn't know where he is and I'll tell you. You know you re beautiful boy, you see the movie and you think well the not familiar, be beautiful boys about com, a beautiful mind, isn't known a beautiful boy is it is a book that came out. I think a couple years ago got turned into a movie. You should have him on a Nick chef and David Shelf, Father and son, and the sun became a meth addict
and essentially almost died. He he smoking cannabis when he was twelve and within a couple of years it had all gone completely downhill for him. I'm surprised it's it's a pretty popular book, but anyway you heard of it Jamie. I never heard the movie yeah yeah. So so you think well, okay, the worst thing that can happen is apparent. The worst thing is your: your child becomes an opioid addict and you wait for the call that he overdosed and died. It turns out that that's the second worst thing that the worst thing that can happen is your son. That college graduate the want to be do gooder, becomes a schizophrenic living on the streets and then you're waiting for the call that he killed himself or he killed somebody else, and so my my you know my my my view. This is in a couple. More years, probably I mean this book is taken over my life. Obviously, but in a couple years are gonna be back to writing novels, I mean
you know also, but this will still be part of my life, but this woman, these parents they're going to spend their lives, trying to destroy the cannabis industry, and that is real. Well. I think that would be a foolish thing to do all right, but I think there is a real possibility that some people who have a tendency to schizophrenia could be triggered by campus. I know there's no question about that, but I think it's also possible that God would have gotten schizophrenia anyway. It look it's possible, but he was sort of at the outer edge of the window and he had no idea that the window is really for boys. It's sort of seventeen to two thousand three hundred and twenty four is showing any issues before it also important to her I mean this is from her so she's the mother, but I'm sure she'd be the one who knows the most. There are people, though too, who just kind of have a decline with or without. Yes, you do here, if sometimes vehicle friends just to break it's just that they just on the road yeah. You know I I mean I know people you know now that we've gone to medical and still have gone to medical school and then one semester
they just can't handle the course load and then their life just goes at the the top out of school. No one ever hears from again they don't reach, you know, get get back into school. That's it yeah that that does how, in all the time that speaks to the fragility of the human mind, that you know that we're talking about diseases that terrible disease to have it as an it affect a certain percentage of the population, regardless of cannabis, use, there's a lot of but they have schizophrenia that I've never used cannabis ever and they've gone completely. You know off the edge. Don't know if you can necessarily blame cannabis for that and It would be really interesting to find out if there was some form of a treatment like you were saying, with Cbd that could counteract that or so Cbd has been shown in early stage studies to have some moderate impact on psychosis. I don't think the numbers that I've seen suggest it really isn't that strong as in MI psychotic. But I do think that
if I were researcher in schizophrenia, I would be looking at the end of cannabinoid six yeah yeah. You have to look at this again. I look at you know from I'm a clinical perspective like the eighties, acatic that we have out, there are not. They have terrible side effects, have terrible side effects and most of them do. I have some initial benefit benefit, but after two to three years there is almost no benefit right and they have, as you said, really bad side effects weight gain metabolic disturbances like people want to get off of them. So if you, I have something like Cbd that doesn't have any of those side effects, of course, as a condition you're going to want to try it right, because you know that the other tools that you have are not really that effective right, so you know dvd can should should definitely be. You know utilize for people who have who have psychosis and schizophrenia. Well, I think we, you know, we talked about life changes like things that happen badly in your life, losing your job, losing your girlfriend. Deaths in the family can trigger these brakes with some folks, but psychedelic drugs can as well. I mean it's.
For some people, psychedelic drugs have tremendous benefits for PTSD quitting Alcohol quitting hard. Drugs is a lot of people that have used mushrooms MDMA for PT. This is a huge thing that maps is studying right now, but you can't deny that there other people and well documented that have taken LSD that have taken Psilocybin and then taking them in large doses and gone and never recovered. And that's why too I forget it was. Maybe it was Mccanna who is on and you guys were saying that, like you know, need to use psychedelic medicines, but we need to use them properly and that's the same way with with cannabis as well. I consider cannabis a psychedelic, particularly when you eat it. Absolutely no, it is. It is a mild psychedelic and you know so
those risks and benefits of that, and we need to tease out the rest and tease out the benefits and make sure that people aren't. We should make that Alex. We need to make sure that people are informed and they get the entire picture right. So you know: does your book have some truth in it? Yes, of course it does, but does it tell the whole absolutely not right and that's the message that you know. I think people should be people shouldn't be hearing just part of the truth. You should be hearing the whole truth and again, you know like in your book like you, that the Map Mexico in India right and you know I talked to- Lopez on the phone about this, and you know who talked to Isaac answers right, and he said that so we- can he's the guy who who, basically you told story of how how in Mexico you know people were blaming marijuana pure blaming marijuana on causing psychosis during kind of like the early 1900s.
Then there was some evidence as well in India at that time. So I was kind of made the connection now one thousand miles apart. You know they're both saying the same thing, but you know he add that you, you did misinterpret the evidence. Right and and in German told me that on the on the phone- and I mean The canvas that was used in Mexico at that time was in you know, really marginalized environments and then, when you look at the India Study- and I know that you address this in your book out because I did read about- I sounds like you did- I bought your book. So you know his date. So I I I read your book and, like I said you know, do you did address in and the part on India that yeah, you know, some of the report was wrong, but I mean the fact is almost a lot of those cases in India where we're at attributed to alcohol or opiates or other things, and then the other thing in in in Mexico is that was in those environments. So you know. Basically,
I'm kind of getting out here is, like you know the Academy of Sciences and engineering, your disagree with how you enter their findings, and then these people disagree with how you interpreted their funds. Okay, but- fever is only one of the sixteen members I get that. But if we asked other men, I think they would all say the same thing because Alex wouldn't you be upset if someone just quoted one part of your book and then left out all the other parts of. I auto think that would be a huge disservice to my work I would not want. I would not not what they put in a ton of effort into something and then for some only have that just to pick up the part that's really the purpose or not, ignores nuans. Honestly. If I had written the Nsm report in the am report and came, two thousand and seventeen and nobody had paid any attention to it, which nobody did and nobody did for two years and suddenly people paying attention to what I'm pretty happy about that. But what
with doctor his talking about is in the first chapter book, which I guess you haven't read and I really should have a copy for you stupid of Maine, I gotta cop, so it's really smart, but so this is fascinating to me, the British. You know they colonized India and they said, but they called lunatic asylums, really psychiatric hospital sort of very primitive psychiatric hospitals, and they were really initially for soldiers in the indian Army and they were run by british doctors, and what these doctors really is early is like the lead. Eighteen fifties, eighteen sixties noticed was that a lot of the people who showed up in these hospitals were showing up with Canada. What what what they called ganja actually need is called ganja arm or bong, which is very weak preparation of of of basically or indian hemp. Just
with low grade cannabis, uhm and so, and so they started counting and they raised the twenty to thirty percent of the people who are coming to asylums were heavy, can this users- and that was way more than alcohol is more than opium. And it's really fast. Anything doctor named George Francis, William Ewins, wrote a book in one thousand, nine hundred and eight, and he looked at the ever and it is amazing, to hear how he describes schizophrenia, how he describes Canada, how he describes the cases of violence around cannabis. It's like it's like any Kya Trist today. Certainly any forensic psychiatrist, like my wife, would would like everything in the book would ring completely true, and it was so fascinating to me to stumble on this and realize this is something people were talking for more than one hundred years. So could we agree that there are some people where cannabis is not a good idea? Absolutely right? We could agree that. I think I think we all agree. Uhm
so agree that some people can't eat peanuts, absolutely right and same thing now, but yeah. You know why peanuts kill you, that's yeah, it's more dangerous, so these things six hundred a year people die from it. So I think more people die from canvas as a result of this comma side in the suicide. Ok. Well, there's no correlation this most paper that I know somebody's got to do the work, but the why you saying that then because I've looked at enough data to tell me you think marijuana is causing homicides. Oh yeah, this is what the book as well, but in how so what is it causes paranoia and psychosis in people and paranoid psychosis are huge risks for homicide and schizophrenia. They use multiple studies that refute that, like there's, multiple studies, studies that refute that paranoid psychosis or huge restore homicide. Schizophrenia is a twenty. Twenty times Joe Jamie, I sent you a document. Yes
Today I mean there's multiple studies that show that marijuana laws are not associated with any type of Tyler. Ok, ok, so we're talking about it. Marijuana laws that was just talking about now use of the drug yeah, so the use of the drug which could possibly trigger psychosis psychosis and schizophrenia, Witcher correlate did with murder. So we're saying they not correlated their triggers that trigger absolute fact triggers of the paranoia and delusions, and you think that someone's out to get you in or not absolutely, I mean the the all of the numbers. Okay, so the numbers are. If you're, if you have a diagnosis of schizophrenia, are you are twenty times as likely to commit homicide? Is somebody who healthy now, it's actually worse than that for cannabis? Okay and here's? Why
that said, the National Alliance from mental illness and the mental illness at risk advocacy groups hate talking about this. Why they hate argument, obviously, because it stigmatizes people with mental illness. So what they say- and this is true, is if you have a diagnosis but you're taking your and I psychotics, even though the side effects might be unpleasant, you're in treatment, you're, you're you're, not using recreational drugs, your wrist for violence. Isn't that high? It's not that much higher than a healthy person. Okay- and you know- fortunately healthy people don't commit murder. That often the problem is, if you, if you think about the math for half a second, if there's this one group of people who don't have a very high risk for murder or serious violence who, because they're not using because they're on psychotics It means that the excess risk in the people who are using and who's untrue psychosis. Is untreated. It must be spectacularly high and the numbers bear that out. So
So there's a really good study. From last year, two thousand eighteen, a small group of patients in in Switzerland, assists with from the desert safe country, is a low base crime rate. But fifty percent of the people who were using cannabis and had psychosis over a three year period committed by It's in that group of people, that's mostly twenty something men. Well, you know there's there's a study here and I just sent it to you Jamie and it's it's titled risk factors. Bouncing psychosis, a systemic. You and meta analysis of one hundred and ten studies. So you know that's it's it's quite a few studies. Okay, so Let me just just read part of it out too so: strongly associated with the history of polysubstance abuse, strongly associate with diagnostic overrated subs. Use disorder and substance, misuse and moderately associate with the history of algae misuse of his of substance, misuse Recent alcohol misuse recent drug, and a history of drug use. It was unclear
there was an association between violence and history of cannabis misuse. So again. This is one hundred and ten studies. They very carefully looked at all of the different rest factors as what could trigger violence? Just let me finish Alex and what they said again. It was unclear if there was an association between violence and a history of cannabis misuse right. So that's one hundred and ten studies. Canvas use in there is going to get locked in with poly substance use like because a lot of people These are going to be using other drugs. Polysubstance means so this is where alcohol cannabis exactly so, everything went down to have significant statistical significance, and I have not not just minor study that doctor heard assignment I'd. Like to look at it without looking at it, I can't push back as hard as I would like, but I can tell you is that I have many study
in the book that show the cannabis use, is associated with violence in people with psychosis and broadly, it's associated with violence in the general population, in large studies, in studies of high school students and bullying in studies of people who were stationing in Ibiza in in in studies of young, man in China and the UK there are big studies out there show cannabis use is associated with violence, Ibiza, Ibiza, I've been to pizza place. Wouldn't you like to be the guy? I don't want to say anything. I got grilled over there for that they get manager is supposed to just said it yeah. So some we can Terrier royal person had a lisp right. Isn't it how it all starts at true yeah yeah, I believe so noted yeah.
We, the people in Spain pronounce words, was directly affected by this one person, apparently but uhm. So this, but this correlation between people, that have schizophrenia and using cannabis. Do you? Is it schizophrenia, a diagnosis it's purely based on behavior? Basically, yes, yeah. It's a clinic, there's no blood test prior to brain scan. It's basically how you behave and and what you tell the doctor about how you're right right in the middle of our eyes or it's very subjective. Just because you're you're asking someone basically a series of questions. I mean it's no different than you know: depression. Really. I mean you just just asking someone series of questions and then based upon that which is very subject, If then you're going to make a clinical decision, whereas when it's like a blood test like if someone passes. You know a certain amount of of hemoglobin, a one c o depend on which chart you're looking at then you're going to call that person
diabetic or diabetic, but unfortunately just don't have those objective measurements and again, that's why you know Box was saying earlier that you know the couldn't really figure out how many people in the United States had had schizophrenia and staying there, but at the same time, I'm too I mean it's to to adjust the way that diagnose someone over the course of years, and you learn things because you, you easily say that almost every has some type of mental illness, and I mean people should you're, saying that you know there are seven different human emotions. I've talked this for its there's anger, there's contempt, there's discuss this fear, sadness, surprise and happiness. That's so depending on which way surprise goes, I mean six, out of those seven are negative right because or wire to basically detect threats. So you know
we're making the all these diagnosis. I think we have to be careful, because you know some people are calling themselves price is something we're calling themselves anxious when really they're, just not dealing with basic human options that they need to under then, and I need to deal with like people are getting about being angry or like depressed about being depressed. We feel one of these emotions just kind of sit with it. Just just reflect on reflect on it, and I think you know much a much much better way to kind of tts things out you want to come back to my original point. I think that more people our understanding that we do. We just need to give out a pill for everything and that everyone shouldn't just be labeled as having a mental health diagnosis, because if things just keep going the way they are. You know what what's by twelve, it's going to be like. Fifty percent of people are going to have like a mental health disorder like people just need to understand that life is hard. You got you want these motions. Sometimes it's not that big of a deal.
That's why for some funds and that's what I'm for yes, folks and that's why I'm such a fan of of Jordan Peterson because yeah, you know, he's he's he's kind of farm people and he said. Let me stop in the trick. Is Jordan? Peterson was on SSR eyes for years. He was for a long long time. I mean like for a long long time, as was his family What's great about him is what got him off as a corner were diet? I know I know limitations diet where you only eats meat with salt and drinks, water and healthier than it's ever been in his life, and that is another massively controversial subject. So let me pushed back a little bit because I think people you know. This is as controversial as the book has been about about canvas and psychosis. This violence issue is even more controversial and obviously for for a for a fair number of people, it doesn't
really doesn't sync with the stereotypes, it doesn't say it doesn't say with how they've experienced cannabis use right. So I think I think alcohol is a really interesting comparison, so blame the canadian plenty of fuel national. We were talking about my wife's actually from new found very useful way. New, for, as in others in marijuana, Inclusive led to say, say, say new from live trained myself to say that what you're telling me I'm wrong, Elaine look. Would you hold up? I marijuana use increases violent behavior. Fifty or study casual link between cannabis and subsequent violent behavior new. Search published online in advance of print of the journal. Psychological medicine concludes the continued use of cannabis This is violent behavior as a direct result of changes in brain function that are caused by smoking over many years.
Churches have long debated a possible link between the use of marijuana in violent crime, in contrast to alcohol, meth and many other illegal drugs, the metal, Bing effects of cannabis seemed Uncw. To promoting violent behavior. However, ample ample previous research has Make marijuana use to increase violent behavior. The sticky problem and studies show that many confounding fact There's co founding factors involved in interpreting this correlation, so so little ones. Ok, it is very difficult to determine whether or not any statistical correlation between marijuana use in violent behavior are uh causally linked or instead, the to Associated or instead the two are associated through some. Factors such as socioeconomic status, personality traits or many other variables that are related to the propensity to use marijuana. So I think it's uh A good summary of the of the issue.
What's up James at the study came from a four hundred and eleven boys who were born in nineteen fifty three in London, ninety seven percent of which were caucasian and all of them are raised in two and households. So so you know those people are relatively stable, they're two families, most parents, Pikachu, that's also no, it's possible, but so so so so so I think the alcohol comparison is again a good one. 'cause anybody who's ever been in a bar at nine hundred pm and gone back at two hundred am knows that alcohol, disinhibits people write it causes fights right. It makes people loud. It makes a lot of fuckin' too. It does does does right, it's good and bad stuff, that's good! I mean sometimes it makes sense. Other people said alcohol and sex or a terrible idea. Right I mean certainly causes some sexual violence sure. So it's ok, but at the same time everybody knows that you can have a drink. You know you can have a beard,
backyard barbeque. You can classify my dinner, that's right. It doesn't mean that you're going to get in a fight, and you actually might enhance your conversation, social lubricants, all that good stuff, all that good stuff- and you might even so people I mean. I do know people who, I would say heavy problem with drinking ok, but it's mostly there sitting at home drinking scac, watching baseball until they fall asleep. That night now, that's obviously not a healthy way to use alcohol, but it doesn't make them violent, but we know so on a population basis that alcohol causes violence, it causes drunk driving. It causes problems, and it's in the study that that I quoted earlier. But it's it's about alcohol again. They they didn't sorry campus, they weren't sure right. So, okay, but so this is again. I would like to read the paper that you're, quoting from because I have so much other research, but here's. Here's! What I'm saying about Canvas, ok, cannabis for
lot of people yeah they can just smoke and his people, you know so many people have tweeted at me. The only thing I attacked was a bowler nachos right, but and so- and so that's true for some people that could be threatened with alcohol as well. That's exactly logical, very, been studies that say that that the cannabis laws of actually decrease crime and then went out on a limb. You go out on missions, you. Let me finish: okay, hello! So so, even though for many people, cannabis isn't gonna cause violence. That doesn't mean it can't cause violence in some people, especially for at least, could be a factor. These could be a factor, especially with the kind of violence that I am talking about, and then I write about in the book which is again so alcohol. It maybe makes out argument in two abroad. It makes a brawl into something where somebody picks up a stick. It makes that into something, or somebody pulls out a knife. It escalates cannabis is different. Cannabis causes paranoia and psychosis.
It certainly causes us things temporarily, even if it doesn't cause them permanently, so a distortion in reality that could lead to you doing something terrible an it's usually to somebody you're, not actually fighting with it's a family member that the worst case is that I've I've really seen a lot of these cases are basically innocent. Family member, who are just in the way when somebody loses touch with reality. An literally things like this, my eighty five year old grandmother, is going to kill me, so I better stabbed her to death first, that happens. It happens a lot and if you look at the amount of violence that people with psychosis command on a population level basis, it look like people with schizophrenia, commit about six to ten percent of all the murders in this country. An it looks like people would sort of broader, more broadly defined psychosis, again bipolar with psychosis, other psychotic conditions, temporary psychosis. They might be responsible for as much as twenty percent of the violent crime in the United States. That's a lot,
a violent crime, and what I'm saying is that it is quite clear that drug use mediates that violent crime, in other words, if you're not using you, can keep your impulses in check. But when you do use, you become dange so we're talking about biological variability if we factor in schizophrenia. Essentially, what you're saying is that there are people that have schizophrenia that don't commit violence but they're much more likely to commit violence. If you add some sort of psych medication, whether it's marijuana, whether it's something else, it perturbs reality for them and yeah psychotics bring down the medication type. Yes, so recreational drugs, the worst the worst cases of all our cannabis Anna Stimulant, because to the they both like cocaine or exactly so when you get that you get paranoid from two sources and you get the only good thing about cannabis. From this point of view, that kind of knocks people down a little but meth brings him. So is it fair to say that what we don't know is that we don't know
whether or not these people like this young band, with this terrible story from Connecticut? Yes, we don't know whether or not he would have become a schizophrenic and and exhibit those symptoms without the marijuana. We really don't know what we do know we did with it. That's that's correct, and, and what I would also say is it for somebody like that, and this is quite clear up on a population level basis with people with schizophrenia is you've got to discourage him from using right, really have to be described because it brings out the worst right and your Somebody said a friend of mine of old friend from New York Times said so every time. There's a hurricane people, some people on the right say: well, you can't prove that global warming cause that one hurricane that would've happened anyway, any and they're right. You can't prove it and you can't prove any one case of psychosis was caught buy marijuana. But when you look at the big studies at the population level data, the association is really clear and everything points the same way and the synthetic cannabinoids K2 and spice those we produce psychosis in people and people with
psychosis tend to slip back into. If they use at some point. You gotta start to say to yourself: why does everything go the same way? I also have a personal friend and I'd really didn't think about this guy, but there's another personal friend that I know that is a martial arts instructor that had a psychotic break. He became schizophrenic and he's regular marijuana user and the people around him associated that with that, and in fact, people that are red. The cannabis users were trying to get him to stop using marijuana, if you're close to being on the edge and use a little bit of cannabis. For sure if you can do that is not on the edge. When I knew him when I knew amuse very rational, very rational, but something happened somewhere along the line was heat, we did, he become a pretty heavy smoker over time. I do not know because we don't live in the same area anymore, but he got re really heavily really heavily medicated and did some really crazy shit and want to be in hospitalised, and this was not the
face before I mean whatever it was that triggered him. I mean it when I is around him when he was younger. I would have said he's a total normal guy and I would have never saw that coming. He was heavy marijuana user heavy heavy, but I don't I don't know how he's doing now. I hope he's ok, but we're you know we have mutual friends yeah and he became a sketch of and you will see in cases like that, but when we do look at a lot of the larger data on on cannabis and violence. I mean it's just it's just not there like. There's lots of data that suggests that you know marijuana laws, for example, can actually have a decrease
in overall illegal, but I think that's a study that says a lot of snow will comfort to the people who lose their children because of the site. That's right and those studies are really bad, so the place that you can criticize bad though, because there, because state level data is not great the place. The book has been criticized: the Rand Road. There was arraigned review, though in twenty thirteen, and I mean that that's a given that stays Ohio state level I wanna use, does not induce violent crime and the links between marijuana use and property. Client crime are thing so right there. I think we all agree that marijuana use by itself with people that aren't schizophrenic. Probably doesn't use violent crime, but with people that are schizophrenic, people were at trigger schizophrenia, it could potentially induce my friend did not get violent, although he did do uh, silent thing wasn't to a person yeah, I think I think we have to be be careful because there's no just like with diet just like with the food
You don't like allergies, all these different variabilities when it comes to human beings. I think we have to be really really careful about lumping all people together when it comes to how they get affected by various compounds. So so the state level thing if you want out so the place. The book has been criticized in my mind, sort of the most fairly. Is it points out that in the four states, legalized first, which is Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Colorado, look at two thousand and thirteen, and then you compare that to twenty seventeen murder. There's an AG assault, violent crime are up substantially in those states an substantially more than in the USA. Can I stop you there, but is there a possibility? There's a correlation between organized crime, because one of the things about selling marijuana is the people that have always been selling. Marijuana have been criminals. When you make things legal in a state, the people
that we're selling it illegal flock to that state and that's been proven to be true, that there's a direct correlation between being robbed that there was also a significant problem with credit cards and banks where everyone was having to do all the transactions with cash. There was a lot of violence is associated with marijuana in regards to and also mass increase in population and so and that's the way, the reason why Trump is actually not really against cannabis in some ways. It's because he feels that if we medical marijuana laws that especially safe that are that are border states, that the crime is going to drop, drops out tremendously and it has dropped They did a study last year and it dropped over fifteen percent. It's all arado and it dropped seven percent in Arizona. And then again you know Benjamin Hanson, who is an answer Congress? They really long data. So let's talk over ok, so he said
that the murder rate did not demonstrate that marijuana legalization increases fonts and then it may have actually demonstrated that legalization slightly decreased fonts, and he thinks that that the reason that there was an increase in the murder rate, particularly in Washington, is because there is a large income gap. They say a wash and has the tenth largest income gap it it. In the United States, but that's why? How did that change now that corresponds to the murder rate. Could question him, I'm so I haven't you know. I didn't get that to speak with Benjamin about this house like confirmation by well. He I mean it that that is one thing that has been shown to increase mental illness like we talked about and can definitely increase font size when you have an income gap that helped, but how's the income gap shifted that directly correlate to the legalization of marijuana, because during the same because during the same period, the income gap, articularly in Washington and increase. So he feels that
you know it's responding, so he feels that that it's it's likely more. To that I mean he. I understand, but I mean you have to respect this guy man. I don't respect them because I know what he did with this data and and tell me what it was is so so jokes this. This is maddening to me: okay, okay, okay, violent crime in those four states increased more rapidly than in the US period between two thousand and thirteen and two thousand and seventeen ok. So the conjecture side know kredible data exists. It supports a significant association between the increased violent crime in marijuana legalization. Furthermore, studies suggest that so far violent crime increases in states with legalized medical marijuana until new research credibly suggests. Otherwise the claim that a demonstratable link between the do exist will remain classified as false. Ok, so that's just not true.
I know it's no peace, okay, and I know we trust Snopes, Honey trust in them. Okay, this is the law of God. I was with that too, but there they give all of their their source right. Okay, so again by one of these. So do you? Are you a lot of those where the sources I've read this stuff and what's wrong with them? Okay? Here let me just go: ok, what I'm saying yeah! Please do two thousand and thirteen Oregon Washington, Colorado Alaska. There are four hundred and fifty murders in those four states. There are thirty thousand AG assault period. Ok, two thousand and seventeen. Oregon, Washington, Colorado, Alaska. There are six hundred and twenty murders in those four states. That's an almost forty percent increase. There are thirty. Eight thousand AG assault with a twenty five percent increase. If you adjust for population, you still get big increases in Denver two thousand and eighteen, almost seventy murders. There were about thirty five in two thousand and thirteen Seattle. Twenty seven two thousand and eighteen there were three thousand four hundred and thirty,
murders. There were, I think, nineteen in twenty thirteen. These increases are real, okay, real, ok. Now, now can we say marijuana legalization caused those increases. We cannot yet. There are other possibility, and what are those well one first of all, population did it's also possible that the state's quote unquote imported violent crime. Another words that you got a population of transients coming in in part, because marijuana was legal and those people are likely to commit violent crime and on top of that organized crime or people that are selling that absolutely there may have been some people who are exporting to tune a brass go to Minnesota to other states, there's crime associated with that, but what I am saying is that unequivocally unequivocally the people who said. Legalization is going to decrease violent crime, and people did say that and Cory Booker in twenty ten seventeen set it. He said that it actually had decreased violent crime in
except legalized, and he didn't say it randomly. He said it when he was introducing legislation to legalize marijuana on the federal level. Those people are wrong. Need to stop saying it. I know, and by the way that organ economist used, He used the wrong data set for his charts. Okay, he used. I use the real numbers: okay, the FBI, homicide numb, he used numbers that include justifiable homicide, no police, because the FBI reported that the murder rate went up, one percent from twenty fifteen to twenty sixteen, as compared to the nationwide, which will be zero point nine percent, and then it draw. To buy eleven point, six percent between two thousand and sixteen and 22nd with Spencer. Every numbers do not know what you're talking about. Ok, those are FBI numbers from radiant, not know what you're talking about the numbers are clear. Ok, I use them reading them right now, two thousand and sixteen release of FBI Uniform Crime reports from Oregon. Ok, yes, Oregon you're, not reading the reports from the United States
taking one ST for Jamie shown something restored at highly rise candidates over the entire country. From that time period too. So yeah that pic those four states for marijuana is legalized is sort of cherry picking the always It's picking every state where there are legal and comparing it to the whole country, will country arrays but the whole country, the more visitors from stocks? Now that's what I'm trying to show. Yes, if I was trying to sell something, really good and will pull back so we can see the holes of the whole so so far. So that's a that's violent crime now for dinners and excellent crime rate in there violent crime and that I guess salts, aren't they no so it so so the four for categories of violent crime are MER, AG, assault, robbery and rape, rapist Going on sideways last years, robberies actually have gone down. It's murders in AG, assaults that are interpersonal, violent crime. Ok, just to go back to this we're going to miss, because this maddens me he used a data set that not the standard data set to report murder. What is the difference here
is the data set that includes justifiable homicides, meaning I'm in my house you come in, I shoot you and kill you. The police don't charge me with anything Fran police homicide, but there is way way way way. Let's not let it interrupt. Let me finish. The those two categories of crime are not likely to be impacted by cannabis. Use cops are smoking when they're on patrol, I hope- and if you you are using your very unlikely to have your murder viewed as justifiable homicide. The fair comparison is the base murder rate in the US, and that's the number that I used. And I am telling you I mean I I know these numbers. I sleep. I wake up with these numbers cannabis, the four cannabis legal states on a per capita basis. Crime, murders rose thirty one percent on a per capita basis in those four states over the twenty thirteen twenty
seventeen period- maybe I'm sorry, I said thirty one- maybe it's twenty nine percent, so maybe I say woke up with anyway for the USA, it's eighteen! Twenty nine percent versus eighteen percent. That's the gap, I am not saying that. I know that cannabis legalization cause that gap. What I'm saying is people need to stop claiming cannabis. Legalization reduces violent crime in it has increased can I ask you in those states was at universal, the increase was it almost the identical yes at Lasca was the most then I think merge went up more in color in Washington and what's also interesting. If you really want to go into the number, is the gap actually widens year by year? So that's you would expect if this is the result of a cycle. Mimetic effect, in other words, a psychosis causing effect, because cannabis doesn't cause psychosis right away, people break down, but if it's causing heavy use-
and some of those people are sliding into you- know, paranoia and psychosis, you sort of expect the gap to increase overtime and that's what's happened ok, so I'm going to go back again to the Netherlands. Ok because they've had you know this legalized forever and they have one slash five of the homicide rate that the United States does right, but they also have a lower cannabis use. That's true! They also have a very common sense, but still you know one one hundred and thirty one one fifth, I mean it's still, it's pretty drastic overall Anan again, you know Alex you appreciate some of the we talking about the correlation between cannabis use. One of the things that we have to accept in America is that when you're in a place like the Netherlands at the has a long and accepted history of use, people are accustomed to it. I think things kind of even out. I think one of the things that we're dealing with the United States is people that have just they don't they don't have
history of experience. It becomes legal and then they use it, and maybe some of them like we're talking about don't have a tolerance for it have too much and like talking about my friend who's, like this really continent, the one who had an edit became suicidal and up for weeks, does very confident, very articulate, very intelligent he's not not a weirdo, not a transient, extremely extremely successful. You know, I think there are there are variables that we need to take into consideration. There's certain human beings that exhibit a pattern behavior that is directly correlated to cannabis. Use that I don't experience. So if I I could say from my own personal biases that that's bullsh, but that's nothing, it doesn't do anything. I've been smoking for years, doesn't do shit. Will you probably don't have one of those three jeans that we were talking about earlier and you probably also too don't overuse or you have some type of you know
legitimacy as as to why you are you are using it and you're one, I I want to keep going with this, but you know at the end of the show. I think that we should make some type of like wreck foundations for people just because I hate when You had this big three hour podcasts and then at the end of it. It's just like hey guys, just be safe. It's like it's like, let's not suck so true man, it's been looking for something like. Let's have some type of like recommendations like I love the podcast with Chris Kresser and Joel, but at at the end of it was just sort of like hey guys
there can die. I think most people realize that one person was going on data and the other person. Yes, yeah yeah, I mean I'm sure I I find it so fascinating now, when you think back for your, you know, through your life, you've you've thought of somebody who who is affected. I have several people, I'll bet I'll bet, if you think about but you'll, think of more people. I I'd maybe, but those are the big ones and, like I said my friend, who is a martial arts, instructor was a pretty significant issue with a lot of our friends were trying to figure out what was wrong with him beforehand. He was sending me these videos that didn't make any sense, and I was like what in the fuck is this like I'll, explain to you more often air, so I don't have to out this guy, but with uh A lot of people that were close to him were really seriously concerned. Now it is it something It would have happened anyway. I don't know how was busy since 20s,
wait, how old exactly two thousand and twenty you know that's right around the age, so it is a little a little bit late. Ish like because, like I said, a lot of the studies, even when you look at the ones on adolescents like for sure it's below the lake you they've they have done so he's like below. Eighteen is worse than say below. Twenty five below fifteen is worth eighteen like the younger. You go the worse and he seems to be fine. Now, that's good, that's good! Using I don't know I have to find out and it's it. You know I'm not an expert on the subject. It's it's because of this. Something called pruning that we go through. So everyone got goes through this and basically adolescence, you're going to drop off some some weak neural connections to kind of pick up some stronger ones. Who is the best way to kind of explain it when you cannabis, you can potentially accelerate that process and then ' 'cause you accelerate that process. You don't get those good news.
Connections, and then you know people unfortunately develop things like like psychosis and schizophrenia, so You know that's kind of where the issue lies, so you know I think that I am very happy that we're talking about- and I know Alex will be too- is that we want discuss. The benefits in this podcast make sure that people understand that you know. I believe that marijuana is medicine. It's an excellent medicine but the other. Two is we do want to mitigate the risks, because there real risks out there. So you I do appreciate you know talking about adolescents and and making sure that they do stay away from campus yeah, honest, I mean especially that's hiked. I I've read these. You know these these cases and case files, sometimes that you know the the the kids started using when he was eleven, and you know it's like that. Never had a chance right now and obviously oftentimes. These are kids coming from disadvantaged backgrounds anyway, but you know
They're using my Levin and it's sixteen, they put it. You know, put a gun to someone's head and pull the trigger. I mean the the. If the the pre adolescent early teen news, we got to do everything we can to stop the problem. Yeah like if you, if you smoke pot in junior high, like say seven hundred and eighty nine, like you're, probably going to smoke pot in high school. Like that, I mean that's what I with me when I when I was growing up, and even when I was home for Christmas for a few days like you know, a couple of my friends even talked about you know some people that we knew smoked on a pot in high school and, like now like they're, crazy or they're, not really doing too much. You know, so we do have to be careful with that. I think we got a lot of ignorance, we're dealing with a lot of ignorance in a current when it comes to biological variability right, we do don't really understand how a lot of these different things affect people, including like just like just what? What what causes depression like? What how much, how much of what
we constitute or what we just decided. Depression is inflammation poor gut health there's a lot of variables is a lot of 'em. Marijuana is absolutely one of those variables and again I don't have an issue with it. I like it, I love the stuff, but it doesn't. It doesn't right, but I'm also honest, and so I see these people were it's pretty odd. This to me that something is going on and marijuana, is not a good idea for them, and I just think you know like I said: the I myself have been guilty of using this. Is this sort of blanket version of it as being a positive influence and that it's a good thing for people? I don't think it's a good thing for everybody, no, it's definitely not a good thing for everybody and it's definitely not a good thing for the people who have that those genetics that I discussed earlier- and you know also to like you know if you you need to have some type of like self awareness like the people who No, don't do well with cannabis. You know you you shouldn't have to
your friends- tell you that it came in like you're not going to work this you should be able to figure out yourself, but that's hard for people, but it's one of the most difficult things for people to do is itself a self assess. Turn out to be objective, you know it's I've. Always I've heard from a lot of people who used heavily and seen other people's views have way last month, and I think it's very interesting why people continue to use when they're, getting paranoid and and and you know the the most cogent argument and again I'm I'm not a you know. I've smoked a handful of times in college and after because I usually don't think I'd be comfortable using high thc cannabis. Now, knowing what I no, but anyway, so the p, the the people, the most got some right here, the most about the hot box Maybe this shared the party with the most the most cogent argument. I thought was so interesting. This guy said
My friends, I've talked to him. They say I'm I'm paranoid now, but I'm going to smoke through it. I'm going to look so much that I'm almost comfortable being paranoid and I think that's uh dangerous thing to do to your mind, because you're sort of not being able to step back from that and stop using that's a silly where looking at it. I think that some of what we call paranoia just normal paranoia is hypersensitivity and hyper awareness and awareness to a lot of things that you're putting on the back of your head, because in order to function as a normal person get through this life, you can't really be aware of everything. Otherwise, you'd be.
So that you realize my feet were in space. Ok, we're on a gigantic ball that spinning one thousand miles an hour hurling through infinity. This is reality, takes out thin layer of gases, protecting us from everything that's flying around in our solar cells, by the way it best to get eighty five years, and then it's all shifted anyway, even if you make it to one hundred the last fifteen dogs too much about this week with stem cells. Stuff will be two hundred and twenty yeah. Maybe it didn't have to be three hundred. What do you do with the universe? Is infinite like you're going to die like the sun is going to end up like at the I mean imagine, people do live to an infinite number. We realized we are talking. Son is dying going to freak out it's all relative right, so there's only so much. You really can't think about in some of what paranoia is. Is this hyper awareness of all these variables that you really haven't haven't considered and then also what we're talking about before the things that can be benefit
so the the hyper awareness of how you communicate with people- and maybe you could have done a better job with that. Maybe you came in hot. Maybe you were upset about something else. When you ran into them, you already at a seven and they brought to attend. It was totally unnecessary within normal, situation. You would have only been a tattoo. Those things are real and sometimes marijuana helps highlight errors in your way. I think it can be a tool, but my disk, if it is like any other tool like a hammer, you can build also the hammer or you could just hit yourself in the dick if you fucking crazy- and this is something that I think we should consider when discussing almost any psychedelic Madison, and I think that I really do believe leave that marijuana is a psychedelic and I don't even think it's a mild one, especially when it's inedible form. I don't think it's mild at all. Yeah there's some people that come in to my office, for example, in like just what I mean come like after one or two minutes. I was just I scouted decide my head. This person is not used in cheese
see like this, this person is hm. What what could which gives you? That was a what is anxious? Yeah, it's just a feeling of they're, not really do not someone who can just sit and Connolly could be by themself, just kind of give me the impression that you know there I'm going to do well with cannabis, because if they had any type, of change in their in their psyche, they're going to see that as bad. And you know like you, got it when you're using cannabis, you have to be someone who who knows that okay, going to get a little bit of may be paranoid out, or at least my psyche is going to change a little bit. I am using psychoactive substance and not be able to freak out right, but some people You know, I know that if, if the use a little bit of thc, they probably would have a freak out, the party would have a bad experience. Jim, it's people who are you very, very fearful now the other side. That coin, though, is that, if you use-
bd, like we discussed earlier, that can decrease, learned, fear right, so the dpa, the drug policy alliance, and that some of the other advocates they just want to yell at me, and they want say that I don't understand correlation causation and then I'm cherry picking studies, let's, let's acknowledge that a lot of people use this drug and that's true, it's legal or not, and let's acknowledge- it probably in twenty twenty. Certainly if there's a Democrat elected most of the democratic candidates have said they favor legalization, there will legalized and this will probably be the law in the United States. Ok and let's talk what we're going to tell people who are using and I had this round table with the executive direct EPA and some other people this people this this about a month ago. Sure shortly after the book came out, and I propose what I thought really common sense warnings and she
basically wouldn't agree, and she agreed to like one of the five of them were the warnings you propose. It was stuff like you know, if cannabis, if you have a family history of severe mental illness, you probably should not use cannabis, you probably you should not, discount or try to delay your use until in twenties. I think was one of them and but I mean I thought I couldn't believe I was getting pushed back on. This was was something like if, if having strange thoughts, especially paranoid thoughts will using cannabis the drug, maybe increasing your risk for severe mental illness, and you should not use it. I mean, I think, that's I think. If now look, we can argue about how severe savere is right it. Certainly if you wind up in the er, even yeah, that's a bad sign yeah. I just I just don't understand why the legalization be look. I can understand why people who are selling this drug don't care right. We know if you know, Mako is taught us. One thing is that when you're selling a product you will sell it to people, even if it kills them
but I don't understand why these people were supposed to be science driven and supposed thinking about. The greater good won't, two reasonable discussions about the what the warning should be on this, I think you did yourself light disservice by not including some of the beneficial aspects of cannabis. I understand your perspective. I understand why you were doing that, because you really wanted to highlight the dangers, but I think that's one of the things that they can point to when they you cherry pick data, but I think that also it's really important to you're having these kind of conversations to have a long one. I mean this we've really for the full gamut right and I I think, that's probably one of the reasons why Bill Maher didn't want to have you on 'cause he's got five other people on the panel everybody's talking over everybody, and you have five minutes to get your case out. I don't think it's possible. I think this is a really. This is a long complicate the discussion that has to do with biological variabilities. It has to do with unique situations with human. This,
psychology, the way the brain functions, whether or not it can act as a trigger. To schizophrenia where someone may not have ever experienced trigger without it. Maybe they just became a long distance runner and they I lived a healthy life with no psychotic breaks at all. We don't really know an unfortunate Once someone goes off the deep end, we might never find out yes and sorry go on. No, I'm just saying I think we have. Be very careful in saying we know what it does. We know what anything does 'cause you don't know. You know what it does for you. You know some people can't eat fish. Now the fuckin' shellfish in their their throat seizes up there's so many variables when it comes the human body, whether it's your kinetex or you know what you've eaten in the past and how it's shaped your gut biome, there's so much that we don't know, oh and don't understand about how we interact with all the various substances that we take in our body. Yes, yeah one thing
to the you know. I noted in your book Alex is that you know you said that you didn't think that cannabis can help the opioid I certainly don't think it's a good idea for people who are at risk of opioid use. Okay, so You know I have seen a lot of people in my practice. Come off of opioids with cannabis use and there are various medical he's a to show that people who use cannabis, Kane, Kane, replace opioids with with A lot of folks feel, though, that that's a pen in defensive that does just a patch and it really best way to get off opiates as I began, and that I began with just the repeat rate of addiction or people try it again afterwards is really low, I think, know one of the things that that is just the accessibility: affordability like I've. Never, ministered Aberdeen before it's illegal in United States, but you mean in its are particularly ruthless medication that I've never tried. Personally,
but the people that I know that have tried it have had spectacular results, especially people that have had problems with pills and practice. Undermine my friend, Ed Clay. He opened up a clinic in Mexico based on his own interaction with with pills he had an injury. He got hooked on the pills and I really had a fucking problem, so I went down to Mexico and went through and session and cured him just whacked. It change literally changes the way, your brain interfaces with your addiction. It's not it's not simply a perspective enhancer it changes how you your body and your brain deal with with opiates. I think TIM Ferriss is actually talked about that before yeah, well yeah, but I mean I've seen it in my practice and there are medical studies, so I don't think that we should throw out the fact that you know cannabis can help the Opo crisis and then also to you, look at it from a clinical perspective right, so we know that opioids can,
people right, 'cause the acts, the brainstem where's where's, your cannabis doesn't so you might be saying you're just substituting one for the other, and you know sometimes that is true but if you're, using a less harmful substance, you know to me: that's like a huge win right. So if someone you know has to drink, you know beers. A night versus smoking. Like one joint man, that's awesome, I mean you look at all these clinics that you look at like methadone, I mean what are they doing? They're they're trying to get people off once, since to a substance that is a little bit less harmful. I think that when you, when you use cannabis, you know it can be effective for for opioids. It can also be affected for for benzodiazepines and for other medicines as well. So you know I would be awesome if everyone, you feel happy and great all the time by just exercise and nutrition, and you know that's what I ask.
And that's what I try to do personally and that's what I try to say to my patients all the time. But I understand, though, that you know. Sometimes life is hard. Sometimes you know fit things hit you you know We have crisis in your life. You have your personal crisis that can drop your mental health and then you have get into a car accident and you could be really severe pain in those times. Sometimes diet exercise t sheen doing all the right things. Just isn't quite enough, and you know I think, that it's great, that we have cannabis for those situations because it does seem to be. You know very effective and has less side effects compared to some of the other medicines. The other medicines that we have traditionally used and you know, even though you I'm talking about opiates and and deaths also talk about. End sets right like non story: anti inflammatory drugs. So you know these
drugs can also? You know, wreck havoc on your gi system. I saw one study actually that we loved Rhonda, Patrick tweet. It If you use end sets, it was really short. I got look it up again, but it was like two weeks. It can decrease your your it opens which can stimulate your testosterone level by like twenty five percent and on that no2 we should talk about. I can't believe I forgot talked with this, but opiates can drastically inhibit your testosterone production right, which is huge thing for depression, because I've had is coming to me before I've been really really depressed. Just give him a small amount of softer onaman through the antidepressants and they're off to the races they're doing great so are we creating a lot of people who are who are depressed because there opiates and their testosterone levels are low and you know, for men, I mean having low testosterone's horrible. Your libido goes. You know, you're going to have motivation, no you're, not
going to feel as well you're not going to do things. So you know- you're, giving someone a medicine a that that nails their testosterone levels down. That's going to really you know, wreck wreck havoc on the will help. I just want to make a note to 'cause Bang Greenfield again. I really really respect I like that. Guy, a lot you know talking a little bit with you about testosterone and asian, you going to feel as well. You're not going to do things. So you know you're, giving someone a medicine a that that nails their testosterone levels down. That's going to really you know, wreck wreck havoc on the it'll help. I just want to make a note to 'cause Bang Green two again. I really really respect I like that. Guy, a lot you know talk a little bit with you about testosterone and and and cannabis and how can drop it. So I think was three studies I saw done on on humans, an to them
noted, no statistical difference and drop in testosterone levels and why in the study. The other study noted a small statistical difference, so I think that it may drop it Stossel levels a little bit, but it's not gonna, you know substantially top, and so just so people people note know that, because I know that comes up all the time you know our yes is the as the as the dumb anti drug advocates like this, a dubious because boobies. That is not not right. There's no! There's no stuff tonight, that's a different issue: Risperdal Cinnami Psychotic, the Spirit and yeah. So so look I think I think the issue of whether cannabis is a gateway drug. There is one hundred percent clear. The cannabis is a gateway.
The argument is you say it has. A hard reset code can be clear. The argument is why ok, so so it's quite clear that cannabis use oftentimes proceeds, other drug use, whether it's opioids, cocaine and other drugs. Now one argument- and this is actually a pro legalization argument- is one reason it's. Gateway. Is that If it's illegal, you got to buy it from your friendly neighborhood dealer. He might have access to heroin or cocaine and other drugs, and so eventually, maybe you decide to try one of those other drugs. So, that's really why the Dutch legalized they wanted to create an ave for use cannabis that wasn't connected to other drugs. Okay, another possibility is that using an addictive intoxicating substance, you I like it and you might want to try other addictive intoxicating substances, an it might, prime your brain and then the possibility really, is that there's some people risk takers out there right they use their use cannabis they're going to gamble. They're going to in cannabis is a little bit easier to access. Then
other drugs, so they're probably going to try cannabis first. So it's not really that this drives the use. It's just. The cannabis is first to just as people do what what thoughts on on? Well, what I will say I mean I'm just going to go back to the name report right and mean I mean you quoted these people. Yes, in your book, you know so so this committee couldn't find sufficient data demonstrated an association between cannabis use. Initially, opioid use. They found no compelling evidence to support the gateway very so so again but that goes with people that you quoted in your book. So there's been more research done since then, but Please have radically changed. I would say things have changed some here's what I would rather say. I think that probably it's a combination of these things right, it's there's certain. An environmental factor again, if you're buying from somebody who's got any access other illegal drugs. Maybe you try those drugs, at the same time getting high. It feels good and you want to try other drugs and, at the same time, you're just a risk taker. Ok, what is what
nobody seriously ever said until about the last five years is that cannabis could be an off ramp for opioids and there's a lot of reasons to believe. That's a really bad idea. First of all, cannabis. If you actually need opioids for pain relief. Canvas is not a good enough pain relief. If, like so it's a mild pain, reliever. It's not strong enough from cancer, cannabis, probably is not the pain reliever that you need, you need opioids, okay and again state level. Data is not as good if you want to really figure out, what's happening to an individual. The best way to do that is to follow that visual and there's a really good paper that came out in twenty seventeen. After the NAM reports they didn't have it that shows that people who used can this in two thousand and one is based on a large national study in the US worth three times as likely to be using open it's three years later. Ok, It just intuitively make sense to me and the other thing that people on the legalization side don't ever talk about is who are the two country?
is that have the most cannabis use in the West, the USA and Canada, where the two who are the two countries I have by far the worst opioid epidemic, the and cannon okay, but there's a real issue with that, because the United States is also the only country other than New Zealand that allows pharmaceutical concert at our shows. I mean there's a there's yeah, but that doesn't the amount of opiates are prescribed. The United States is preposterous. I agree particularly the the of the I don't know if you're so the documentary the Oxycontin Express, but the way Florida used to be structured where they didn't have a database. You could just literally go from yeah the pharmacy yeah yeah. We have a problem with the way we prescribe drugs in this country. Hope you, it's. Eighty d, drugs bands of righteousness arise all connect, to cancel. It makes sense that it would filter over there. Yes, but what I would say is that people who think that cannabis is not part of that overprescribing problem are deluding themselves. And what do you think do that? So it can? You repeat the question so
so I agree with Joe the way the access hope you is in the US. I mean. Certainly it's come down a little bit last couple years, but you know more to form a there's, a special place in hell for those guys, but not just not just opens. We prescribe too many bands. As we prescribe to many add drugs. We probably prescribe to many SSR eyes, we prescribe too much in this country. I think we all agree. I agree with that. I think that cannabis is, Another example of us looking for a drug to solve our problem, but what I'm? Okay, again, just from a clinical perspective, I can't just rely on. On diet and exercise for all my patients? I have to use other tools and again like everyone here, this room like we're. All pretty healthy? I don't have a bad back or you know I don't have it mental health diagnosis or anything going on. So you know I have to look at patients that are coming to me right. So the way I see it is that you we, you mentioned a bunch of other drugs. Antidepressants and feta means all these sites to things
cannabis and again you know I'm going to separate the c and Cbd. It's incredible. And it doesn't kill people right so as a clinician, you know that that's sole comfort for me to know that every single I go to bed, I killed zero. I know that right. So that's really really comforting for me to know. Also, I feel you know we just talking about and we're just talking about, SSR Ssris. I feel that cannabis, particularly the Cbd component, can actually be more effective, but I've seen a lot in my practice and other people have seen that as well. So you, I think we need to. We need to take that into consideration when we're using all these dogs and Alex other things that you're saying you know they're quite addable in a lot of things like researchers say you know, are quite able as well and- and you know they feel that they can tell clinicians you'll, give 'em really good advice, but they're, not the one
in the trenches they're, not the ones in front of the people they're, not the ones that the half that have to chat with patients. You know I we have an obligation to do something for my patients to make them better, really feel we just listed a bunch of drugs that cannabis is a really really effective tool and- and it does kill anybody so you because of that you are going to keep using it but, like I say, I'm always looking for other drugs, I'm always looking for other alternatives, alternates that to also help my patients, but I think that you know using cannabis. It is, is really effective tool for a lot of clinicians and it's helped a lot of patience. But what do you think about his argument about it being a gateway drug other than what these people said in the study that there's no evidence that supports it's a gateway drug? What are your personal feelings about that argument? So I don't feel that that cannabis is the gateway drug. I do feel that you know. One of the things that you mentioned earlier is that you know so
people kind of had this personality where they're like in experiment right and they just. I want to try something. So you know the fact is that alcohol cannabis just get introduced first, most of the time most people, you know, don't do coke or lsd and then say: hey man, let's try some cannabis right, so it's just that. That's the very first one there! So if we so you could say anything that that that was easier access if there were some nude dog that did something similar to alcohol or similar to cannabis, and that was introduced in our society, Colin DOT, the gateway drug well- and I do feel- and I I I do nearly been demonstrated as being a gateway drug to almost all hard drugs yeah because of the the loosening of inhibitions. Where is the opposite can be said about cannabis? That makes it or you might actually be less likely to try cocaine afterwards and- and I know that the name you know they don't they don't feel that cannabis is a gateway drug either I mean again, they said you know
they found no compelling evidence to support the gateway theory. And again I mean these are the people that you are quoting in your book out right. So, let's go a little bit further, they said in a retrospective cohort study, it may it from Etl and the twenty sixteen exam, the transition from cannabis use to the use of other illicit drugs. They found that the probability of initiating other illicit drugs after cannabis did not differ significantly from the probability of starting with other Alisa. So it's just that cannabis is their first, it's definitely not a gateway drug in stretch the imagination. Again, I did, I totally disagree and again there's fifty years of data on this. I know this studies that he's quoting, but there are. There are many others and I think the argument is as to why and again. I think the argument that that, to some extent, having access to this drug via illegally tends to open you up to other illegal stuff which to me is for legalization so, but I I
you want to throw one thing out there. You know, I don't know how many of your viewers have teenage kids are. You know it's price are probably more likely to be teenage kids and to have teenage kids, but you know it. The book has. The one thing that really worries me in the if we're talking bout gateway drugs is that jewel and vaping are really a gateway to thc vaping. So you can you know you can run through that because well, first of all it gets people, it gets kids teenagers used to inhaling. You know this illicit substance and you can actually retrofit a juul pod with thc. They don't sell them, but you can easily go online and look at how to do, an. I think. It really worries Maine and I've heard from a lot of parents in the last month that there is an epidemic of nicotine, vaping, ntsc vaping going on right now and that I think and we're talking about fifteen sixteen seventeen year old inhaling
see the most dangerous form of this drug and I think, unfortunately, it's not going to take long before the mental health consequences of that become apparent and I really do hope that the book gives parents some tools to talk to their kids about that. If nothing else last words, she want to go over a few things that maybe I thought you might be interested in. Ok, ok, so your dude you're over fifty so prostate cancer. So It's been shown that Cbd may actually be beneficial for prostate cancer and something within that too. In the same study they actually found that people who used Cbd and we're on chemotherapeutics is actually augment it. The you can see all these things are good for prostate cancer. Do you mean to prevent it? Do you mean to treat it prevent and treat yeah yeah, and then they say you know, cheat see, may actually be a little bit affected because it can- and this comes back to the test- also- that it can antagonize t h, D H,
Dht is another testosterone. Hormone, as you know, and that's more more linked to prostate cancer thing to you know we didn't get really get to talk about was a and concussions you all. I know a lot of your viewers are in and and all about that night. We'd love to study the other day that you were treated. I really appreciate that, and just you know, as a three year study showed that the more great overall was nine one slash two percent for people who had suffered a Tbi people, who I know you we we about correlation correlation causation, but know the thc users only had a two point: four percent, the non she chooses had eleven point. Five percent were talking. I mean that's, really really signif right, because this is just thc, not c, b d v D is been trying to be very beneficial for people with traumatic brain injuries, yeah yeah it sucks at and t h, you're, both an official yes, so that was you know again a correlation causation, but I mean that that the status so over overwhelmingly give was, you know not
She was like three point: five percent. I want to bring it up, but it's eleven point. Five hundred and eleven point five percent compared to two point: four percent: and again, Cb De yes and there's even yelled mechanisms of action have even been identified with that it decreases. You know in information in your brain post, post concussion, one last thing to again: there's only one study on it so and was done on rats, but you know I'm I'm a Keto guy to, but that study on rats interestingly showed that if you have, if you do have a high fat diet that you can actually decrease sensitivity at the Cb1 receptor and they think that that just because there's increase in your endogenous cannabinoids, eg and inanimate when you, when you do have a high fat diet and then kind ok, sure and then
all simars. You know again, I know you're plus plus fifty. So you know cheek C Joe has offered that's why I, I don't think you want to keep doing this podcast. You know for for forever here that a BC system, so thc has been shown to inhibit the formation of beta amyloid plaques. That's the you know the hallmark of Alzheimer's Disease and then subbed has also been shown to be effective for for all summer seeds well as a rat study that was going to get into, but it's fairly fairly fairly detailed. So you might be. I should say that I can help with rescue memory impatience, if do you Cbd, meaning that it actually reverse and that's been shown before two I've done that in mice I got interrupted for one second, ok, and I think you would agree this data is some of its summer sort of epidemiological some of its preclinical. It's very very early,
none of. It really proves my dad, but I wouldn't let me say, I'm a clinician. Okay, if someone loves me and they have a concussion. It's very question just to say to them: hey physical, cognitive rest, go okay, it's really frustrating to say that someone also to you know that the high fat diet thing you Joe, and I both volume, very, very our diet, so that some of the ones I am with the guards to you know the the all stars disease. We have really really poor medications for that and we had an aging population. So again, like I looks like you want to look at everything, which is what I'm doing like I'm looking at everything and I'm trying to make a clinical to am I using some things like without you know, control trials, of course, and but again on the connection, so I'm using mechanisms of action, I'm using what I see and and I'm using epidemiological studies and I'm also taking into account what are they
this is. Do I have your base upon all that data and it seems to be an effective treatment, and I am actually not saying that you, as a clinician, should do that especially you're in Canada. At TI it cannabis is legal, a you should you should use your best judgment. What I'm saying is that when we're talking about policy decisions around cannabis and thc and to a much lesser, the advocacy groups have seized on this very very preliminary data to say a lot of things about cannabis and thc that have not been proven and a guy. I know them Peter Bach, who very smart he's a pulmonologist Memorial, Sloan Kettering in New York and he wrote a piece in the Wall Street Journal a few a couple weeks ago. Talking about MRS limits as Medison, and he said something
I thought was so well put, which is the reason why people want cannabis to work for Alzheimer's and cancer and a bunch of things where does where there's really no evidence that it works is that we don't have good treatments. We want cures, we want help we, if we're conditions, I mean I'm, not a clinician. Urination want to be able to give people who come into our offices something, but that hope is not a substitute for science. It doesn't mean that it works an even you want you want your patients to have hope. Ok, but that advocates the people who are using this to push a special kush thc and to capitalize on the public confusion around Thc and Cbd. I think that is a real. It's a real disservice to people. Ok, uhm. I think we covered everything so it's complicated subject. It really is- and I think it's really important to discuss how complicated it is. I don't know I think there's
heard such a detailed analysis of all this stuff. In a way where you can get two opposing people that are, you know very civil about it, but agree in certain aspects of it. I think think we really highlighted all those things Joe. Thank you so much for having thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So much really appreciate you give out your social media, please sure. So, I'm at doctor my cart on Twitter. I'm going to talk to my cart on Instagram and I'm not talking on on Facebook. So it's d, r m. I k e h, a r t and Alex your book is tell your children. The trail will now it's available everywhere. It's available now and if I had a copy I'd, give you account. That's ok, I'll, give you the copyright. Ok, alright! Well! Thank you guys. Thank you very much pics. Thank you. Everyone, hundreds, the podcast and thank you to our sponsors. Thank you to dollar shave club right now, a bunch of starter sets. You can try for just five dollars like their oral care kit and after that, the
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and much love to you. All. Bye, bye.
Transcript generated on 2019-10-24.