Ben Shapiro is editor-in-chief of the Daily Wire, syndicated columnist, and host of “The Ben Shapiro Show” is available on SoundCloud and iTunes. His new book "The Right Side Of History" is available now everywhere.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hello friends, this episode, the podcast, is brought to you by Traeger grills Traeger grills is first of all it's a company that makes fantastic pellet grills. If you don't know what a pellet grill is there. Wood fired, grills that are, these pellets are made sawdust with sawdust. If you're going to saw up some cherry wood or some oak, they would compress that's dust using the natural sugars of the wood, and it makes these little pellets and the pallets are fed through this new and improved direct drive, drivetrain in all operated through use through an app on uh. Why fire controller- and you can cook with Just- would and FA fire in a delicious way that they really control the temperature of these grills perfectly it's very stable. You can cook steak, you can cook chicken, you can grill, you can bake, you can barbecue, there
super super adjustable and they have new grill that just came out right now. The Ironwood tree Ironwood was built from the ground up to elevate your craft, forge from commercial grade stainless steel, the IRA, the Ironwood grill. It looks great and it cooks futuristically. It comes loaded with a d2 direct drive train. This is their new, improved drivetrain. Why fire controller, which is what you use with the application, their new drivetrain. It has more power or equals a hotter, faster grill cooks to temperature quicker, heats up to temperature, quicker, more flavor, which means more unbeatable wood, fired taste, a single piece, auger and built to last brushless motor combines, with a variable speed fan, to bring you fast startups, an and more precise temperatures. I'm a giant fan of these trade
grills and I love using the application. The application is it the app is so easy to use you just download this Traeger grill app to your smartphone and you can control all sorts of things control the temperature, the grill, the tap of a finger. You can monitor your food's internal temperature um with the ah the internal probe that sticks in there, and it tells you constantly what the temperature of the food is right on your phone and you can raise and lower the heat. It's great. I love them. I'm a big fan of the way the food taste with it. It's just you just natural wood and fire, and it gives yeah delicious smoky flavor to the food that you cook on it. You can check out new grills or find a local dealer at trigger grills dot com. Slash Joe we're also brought to you by the cash app lays in general
cash app is the number one finance app in the app store and uh. It's a great it's a great app for a bunch of reasons. First of all, you can pay people back the money. It's the easiest way to send and receive money. They could pay you back how about that. You could also buy and sell Bitcoin super inexpensive and easy way to buy and sell Bitcoin very convenient on top of that. The cash app offers inst discounts at some of your favorite places with the cash card. The cash card is the most powerful debit card in the world and the only one with boosts a money, saving feature that you can't get anywhere else because the cash app invented it. You just select boost in your cash app swipe the cash card and you will save ten percent or more at whole foods, shake Shack, Taco Bell, Chick fil, a domino's and coffee shops across the country. The coffee shop boost is awesome. It takes a dollar off at any coffee shop. Every time you go to order.
So if you order three hundred cups of coffee a year, you save three hundred dollars with the cash app and includes Starbucks Coffee Bean Duncan. It's that simple. Every time you get a dollar off, download the cash app from the app store or the Google play market order. The cash card today and when you download the cash app enter the referral code, Job Logan, all one word: you will get five dollars, that's five, three dollars and better. Yet five dollars will also go to support our good friend, Justin Wren's fight for the forgotten charity, which is helping to build wells for the pygmies and last but not least, were brought to you by Casper. Mattress is ooh, so comfy mattress is that are perfectly designed for Hume when's engineered to soothe and cry. Well, your natural geometry: you spend one th
word of your life sleeping so shouldn't you be comfortable. Casper brand match is combined multiple supportive memory, foams for a quality sleep surface, with the right amounts of both sink and const, designed developed and assemble in the US, affordable prices, because Casper cuts out the middleman. The middle person excuse me and sells direct lead to the consumer, and how about this no hassle returns. If you're not completely satisfied free shipping enrich turns in the US and Canada, and you can be sure of your purchase with Casper's one hundred night risk free sleep on it trial. That's a confident. They are. Let you sleep on that mattress for one hundred nights, that's a long time. It is in fact the mattress that young Jamie rests his weary head on every night. You can one hundred dollars towards select mattresses by visiting
casper dot com, Slash Rogan and using the promo code Rogan at checkout, that's casper, dot, com, Slash Rogan and the promo code. Rogan, for why one hundred dollars towards select mattresses terms and additions apply. My guest today is figure I enjoy his company. I enjoy talking to him, but I think anybody that's concern live in this day and age is polarizing and he's definitely conservative, but ah he's a kind man and a bright man and I always enjoy communicating with him. Please welcome Ben Shapiro, a job well done
experience trying my day Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day, yes, will live Ben Shapiro as gun did very good how's it going with you man, it's going. Well, I love. I love the new digs you haven't been here since you finished it over and I walked in. I thought to myself. I've been doing my business wrong. I mean you got what three employees yeah there's not that many folks working on this I mean so in my office, is we have like eighty and our offices are not nearly this cool. So I'm going to go back to my office and fire everyone and then have your folks come in and design because I mean it's either lot of people or I could have cars in my office yeah. But you wouldn't go down this route. You're, more of a conservative gentleman know myself, you wearing a suit jacket, you're your own boss, nobody tells had a dress, and yet you dress like a grown up yeah. You know. I won't pretend that nobody tells me how to dress. We have people who tell me how to dress. We have people who do my hair. Do you have all that stuff,
like fashion folks, may yeah yeah? I know because I used to I mean if you look at the old photos of me, I have like the Hitler here of got like the there. That's the only thing about me, the to Larry. It was my old hair and I've got the hair that kind of comes down over the forehead and I still walk into the office wearing basically an undershirt every day, because I'm incredibly lazy when it comes to that stuff, but we should be able to yeah, I mean that's, that's the prerogative of being the boss, maybe you'd be more relatable. If you showed up wearing like flip flops and t shirt that kills my brand. Oh no. Does it like? What is your brand exact? I thought was being an asshole, I think you're an asshole though thank you. I appreciate you're a very nice guy, you're, just conservative, that's the dirty little secret that yeah we're not supposed to not supposed to talk about that, but this is one of the things that bothers me so much about you being so misrepresented. When I read things about you, there was the article that were is talking about the outright sage without the rage, they called you and your not even remotely alright. In fact, you were the leading tar
did of anti semitic abuse for all of two thousand, and sixteen, where you are learning to the Anti Defamation League, which is no ally in mind. So yeah I mean not only am I not all right. I've spent the last four years, like legitimately, battling the all right talk about how evil I think their ideology is how evil I think white supremacy is first of all like people with Yamaka is typically not the favorites of the all right and then beyond that I mean, I think their ideology is legitimately a devastatingly awful twist on what western civilization is supposed to be was amazing is a review of my new book, and my new book has several sections and they're dedicated to how terrible the outright is, and then the interview they did with me doesn't talk about all right stuff at all, but they just assume I'm on the conservative right. That must mean that I am out right and it's like no, you stupid problem with those labels. Their disingenuous people are labeling people in a very simple manner, to
try to categorize them as the enemy and instead of just addressing these points. Like I love watching your debates, where you do Q and a's with college students and with people in the audience, because you can see you agree with you or disagree with you, you have well formulated ideas. This isn't just some bullshit you're spouting out spouting thought. You thought these things through doing effort legitimately more than half my life, I'm thirty five and I started out of seventeen and I started writing a syndicated column at that point and when you and you think, a lot of dumb stuff and then you get older and you educate yourself and you spend a lot of time reading a lot of time studying. Hopefully you have some cogent arguments after twenty years of doing anything, but the demonization is pretty astonishing mean we had an on Andrew Yang he's the only democratic candidate who has agreed to go on the Sunday special that I do
a full hour on you be I it was perfectly nice. It was perfectly coherent and and and conciliatory, and yet people will suggest that everything I do is about destroying people. On the other hand, I because of all the Ben Shapiro destroys videos, and all that there's there are certain groups of people, were that's their schtick they're like they're goons right. They just go after people online for attention. Yes, this is a stick. This is not you, and this is what bothers me so much and now that you've said some things in the past, like particularly about Arabs and like when you were a younger man that you said, I shouldn't have said that yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right! Some of those things were taken out of context like that one particular tweet, which is a bad tweet, was a tweet that was part of a tweet threaten which has specific contrast, Ing Israel and the Hamas leadership and saying that the israeli government likes to build on the Hamas leadership would prefer that their citizens live in sewage and bomb things, but that was a bad week obviously knew my entire history on muslim relations is
one like. I supported the ability of AL had a marked where he job. On the on the floor, I oppose President Trump's originally proposed Muslim down at in the last three weeks. I've had on May she'd know wise. I've had on contact Med. I had on yesterday a reform Muslim like these are conversations that have to be had, but to take. This is one thing that bugs me so much I've. If we did, I think one hundred and forty thousand times I've written millions of words, I'm sure you can find something I don't even remember having written. That is bad. I have a running list the way I try to be honest about this, I'm one of the only people I know who has. I have a running list. It's called so here is a giant list of all the dumb stuff. I've ever done right and I actually go through all this. You can look it up. This is not me saying this now I mean you can go and look up all the things that I think I've done wrong and all that Algiz for someone will say somewhere dumb and I'll, say some, I'm fine with and you're just taking out of context, but I mean, I hope, that's what honest people try to do. But this is the problem: you're not dealing with honest people
with when people try to categorize. You is all right or they're they're trying to put you into this category of internet goon, there'd date in they did quote tweet does taking some little any phrase. You said seven years ago and trying to say this is you this? Is you now it's so that's, which is disingenuous thing to do. I hate it and I hate it across the well. By the way I was a defender of James Gunn. I thought James Gunn should have been fired from guardians of the galaxy. They were just dumb, jokes, that's exactly right, and even with somebody tweeted something bad like ten years ago. Bringing it up now is not an attempt to actually make the public space better and you're not actually offended by that thing. The person we did ten years ago, though, didn't notice what it is that you want to get rid of this person or hurt this person's going to bring up something from ten years ago, and they were going to club them into submission with him, because if you actually ask them there anything about it, they might have a more nuanced view on what they said. Maybe they apologized and maybe they.
I don't remember, saying that right I mean I I felt the same way, but what I try to be consistent. I really do about about the stuff. I said the same thing about, for example, Ralph Northam, the governor of Virginia, who is excoriated for having this terrible racist photo on his yearbook, page back in medical school in one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven and people are well. This is evidence he's racist now is like well, no that's evidence that he was doing a racist thing. Then that's not evidence that he's racist. Now you sort of have to look over the broad course of his career and he ended up doing what everyone now does, which is you just don't apologize for anything you just try to pass it off as in nothing. The public space is actually getting worse, because let's say that you did something bad in the past they're a few human responses to. I did something. I don't like him past human response number one is you know what I apologize. That was wrong these days. That gets your face. Step done right. You say I apologize. I was wrong, it means well, why did you do it in the first place because you're, a bad person? Apologies are not accepted and then
number two is your brazen it out. You do the trump. You know what I never did anything wrong ever I've never perfect right and that and then you get your defenders to come and surround you and then nothing ever gets cleansed or opportunity. Number three: is you do what Barack Obama did, which is you come out preemptively and you try to remember for all the bad stuff you do and then you confess it in public. So in dreams from my father, he says right when you know when I was back in high school, did a little boat okay, so you did cocaine when he was in high school. That's that's cool, whereas if it comes out during the campaign right study, stoned right, then he's got, it he's got a real problem. The problem is that, right now, even if you preemptively come out and say I did something wrong like, for example, Liam Neeson talking about years ago when he had a racist thought that he didn't act on, but he had a racist thought. This is now we're going to try and ruin your career for something that you admit was bad that you did thirty years ago. We're gonna, try and run you over that. If you apologize for something that you did thirty years ago, which you would have preferred just got forgotten 'cause, it was embarrassing and stupid. Then we say you're bad and so all your
so it is like the most shameless people in the world who are in the public space right. The incentive structure is to be deeply shameless to say, yeah man, I own that, and it was great when I said- or I didn't say it at all, and it was full of it. I never said that stuff, you know who's going to leave your eyes are me and it makes it makes for a really bad politics. Well, it's just this, the culture of going after people for things and finding any thing to categorize them as someone who's a viable target. This is what I've seen the trust. Your way, it's like there's nothing wrong with being conservative, there's something wrong with wanting everyone to think the way. You think, though, this is the difference like you. Would you would you what I like that you do? Is you debate your points? You state your positions, you have a philosophy and what I don't like is when people try to put
that. That philosophy is some somewhat somehow hateful or somehow regressive, or something like that. You condemn people for their thoughts, you just you don't. This is what not. When I see with you. I appreciate that and I appreciate the accuracy ex. I I think that's true. I mean I've come out against. Virtually every twitter band, including people who have personally targeted, may have come out against that, have come out against virtually every. Would you know what they're talking about that? We? What are your thoughts about this idea of the platforming? And you know this is something that we were just discussing before the podcast, where the CEO of Youtube and Kara Swisher, I am from Recode, I think terrace wisher. They were talking about removing you from you too, and I thought it was the ceo of you too, but it was actually Kero set. I would if I could yeah she has, because our son apparently listens to that's kind of funny,
if he's being funny saying I'd to it, but it was it would be. I thought it was the ceo of you to actually trying to my sister. She was trying to the same thing that they they do with you or with Dave Rubin, Jordan. Peterson, which is that anybody who is sort of heterodox, because in that group, I think I'm the only registered Republican ever anybody who's had doctor is now being exported, docks, meaning just things differently from kind of the down the line. Democratic party platform you're not like down the line with Hillary yeah like SAM Harris, is a done. Sam Harris is heterodox because he disagrees that Islam is, by necessity, a religion of peace, for example right or he thinks that we have to look at actual statistics in order to make evidentiary base points about discrimination in disparity, and this makes him an enemy of people like as recline inbox dot com. Read that this sort of stuff. They then say that your feet are for white supremacy and they they they can actually get you on what you say yes turns into well. You know some members of your on.
Let's do things that are really bad. Is it well dude? I have like millions of people who are members of my audience. I have five million facebook followers. I have two million on Twitter and your way bigger than I am. I assume that some of those people are going to be crazy, yeah. I would assume yeah the idea that you respect well. This is what you we try to do. You know about the comment thing where the Youtube was going to try to make people responsible for the comments in their videos which what is a normal Jamie, normal video, that we get. How many comments is it? Yet? I don't like ten thousand- that's like of average one fuck supposed to have some dude with his your fingers, standing by in front of a keyboard just waiting for something offensive to pop up, and this was in response to something that happened with them, where there was pedophiles who were watching videos of children doing things, and they were commenting stuff in the you know like that. Children's gymnastics and stuff like that there were commenting and and like
beginning with each other through the comments, and it was sort of discovered that there was this connect and they were doing this in many many videos Youtube rightly panic they like today we to stop this. So the response, I guess was we just have to make people responsible for their comma. Someone said: oh yeah, good idea. I didn't think through it all right in certain people that can't do that. It's totally insane and it's insane and in virtually every respect and it's funny how it's only applied kind of by the media on ones. The I also need to take an example. Congressional baseball shooting happens a couple years ago. Guy happens to be a Bernie fan is that Bernie Sanders is fault right. No, that is not Bernie's sanders. Is that went away right, literally people stop talking about in it, and that was shooting of legislators like all the people, yeah one nearly died and that kind of went away. We don't talk about Bernie's responsibility, but there's a shooting in Christchurch and it's Jordan Peterson's fault.
It has no relationship with the shooter whatsoever. It's my fault. I have no relationship with the shooter and denounce everything that that piece of crap stands for and suddenly is it's it's really ugly and it's gonna it. It will come home to roost. I mean here's. What's going to happen. Is Facebook and Youtube are gonna fall prey to their own standards because of their standard? Is that you're responsible for your followers or I'm responsible for my followers or Jordan or anybody else is responsible for all the people who view their stuff? Okay, then, why isn't facebook responsible for all the people posting on its platform if they are right, a facebook becomes responsible for all the people posting on its platform, they'll be bankrupt in a week. They've got a problem I do because they have to decide whether their platform or whether they are a do gooder publication yeah. I I run and I run a a publication daily where it's open the conservative. We make no bones about that and we are responsible for the content that appears on our platform
and if we say something to FAM, Atory will be sued. If we say something that is false, then we will be sued. Presumably, if you post something falls on Facebook, Facebook doesn't get sued, but now Facebook is deemed itself the morality, police and they'll ban people they don't like and mold inside what editorially ought to be elevated and what ought not to be elevated. Does that sound more like the phone company to you, or is that more, like my website, where I decide what gets published and what doesn't right, because Facebook's case for exemption from these laws is what we're like the phone funny right when you're on the phone with somebody. If that person says something criminal, a t and t isn't responsible for the person saying something: criminal or terrible. It's just the phone company, but Facebook isn't doing that. Facebook is jumping into the middle of conversations and then saying. Well we don't really like this conversation, so we're just going to kind of shut it down, not because of legal threat, but because we just don't like it,
they actually doing that. Would you say if you put a post up on Facebook and they don't like the way you worded things or describe things where they actually shut down your post? What will they do so they've done it in the past to some conservative public is pretty controversy because they're not transparent at all. I can tell you that the beginning of two thousand and eighteen we lost about thirty five percent of our traffic, because Facebook started cracking down on mostly can motive sites. They said that it was kind of news sites generally, but that's not what the statistics showed they're doing it more often with things that we all sort of agree are bad right. We all agree. White soup, Missy is bad. White nationalism is bad. Now they say they're gonna sensor that stuff, but here's Ryman comfortable. I think that that stuff is awful and evil, and I think those people are the ones are the rich they're. The reason I have personal security, but once you get into the business of Facebook, gets to decide which speech is good and which features bad they're an editor.
You know their editor, even if I agree with their assessment of what stuff is good and what is bad. I am not comfortable with them in the driver seat there, and if they are going to be in the driver seat, then they should be held liable for all the stuff. That's on their platform. Why is it twitter same thing right? Why is it that Lewis, Farah Khan, is still on that platform, but Alex Jones? It's not like. I don't like Alex Jones Material and I've been very, very critical of Alex Jones. I didn't think you could get banned from twitch and he actually violated the law and less. He was responsible for a violent threat and less used if amatory or something their death. Only going down this road of being the moral arbitrators there they're the ones you get to decide what the conversations are. That's an insane responsibility, the responsibility of getting to dictate what should and should not be discussed and to have it be a hand, few full of people and have these people almost almost six,
usually live in the Pacific North of San Francisco that whole tech community mean it's all tech liberals who really, if you're around those people they live in. This really strange, uber, wealthy bubble of super genius spectrum, people who coders and super capitalists and people that are raising money all over the place and designing technology, and they have an ideology and it's not really a bad one. Just just being are honest and up front about what it is. It's a sick, credibly progressive, which is very unusual for big business right for big business, to be just open, only transparently, progressive and pushing social justice very unusual. I think that there is a sort of misunderstanding of when we say what big business is, what big businesses. So I think that there's a wide variety of owners of businesses and how they think about politics, obviously bill gates to progress,
but I warn buffets progressive guy. They are now. I was ill bill gates of his whole life for what was ruthless with Microsoft about so I think that they're a lot of p at listen. I think that that the vast majority think Mark Zuckerberg is flys with progressive. I think Jack Dorsey is as ruthless as the next guy. When it comes to profit, I mean he's still got to be answerable to our shareholders. I think I think a lot of the progressivism is sort of ah way to excuse your own in your own involvement in the capitalist market. Facebook took off, don't be evil. That was their thing more people to decide to remove that Google right, say Facebook. I'm sorry, Google yeah, when Google did that. I met Google, but it's funny when you think something but you're saying and when they did that like, why would you ever take off? Don't be evil like cheap that? But here's the thing, here's my thing. I think that if our tech companies were honest, they should take that stuff off like stop pretending. You're do Gooding you're not do good and you're providing a platform, and maybe the platform is the good right in a capital
economy. The product that you provide is the good. I don't need additional good to come from your product right. If you want to provide me a solid morning, drink right need your politics. Along with that, I just need to drink. I want to social media company. I don't give two craps about what Mark Zuckerberg thinks about politics. Dude hasn't studied it. I don't care at all what Jack Dorsey, who vacations in Malaysia and gets bitten by million mosquitoes, while meditating has to say
the nature of life like what? Why do I care about Jack Dorsey's, political, you? He has provided me a good. The good is this basic chat room where I'm consuming it, how bout that would just be enough, but it's not enough for a lot of these folks. It's it's the the kind of who we from Silicon Valley. We're gonna, pretend that we're here to do good, and it's not enough just to acknowledge that. Maybe the thing that you provided is the good like bill gates. Yes has done more good with Microsoft, then he has done with any of the charities he's in a lot of money to charity, but Microsoft has provided legitimately hundreds of thousands of jobs and created enormously productive lines of business and made in nor this profit for a lot of people want people have stock in Microsoft as a general as a basic, factual thing, he has done more good doing that than giving tens of millions of dollars to various outside causes. So it feels like a lot of the progressivism in corporate halls in Silicon Valley is by for Kate id mentally. It's like people have like dolphins is one side of the
rain on at a time. Here's my capitalist side, where I go out and make money and profit, and then here's my other side, where I show people what a great person I am by proclaiming the time for Bernie Sanders, well parking my money off shore to make sure that there it's shielded from that from the tax man yeah. Well, that's a good assessment from what I'm saying is that the the don't be evil thing like what one of things that I thought was a what if that was like a legal decision of me being cynical, they were pulled into some sort of an office and said if we say don't be evil and you take someone off the platform you're, accusing them of evil. So I mean that we should slow that down. Maybe I mean again this this. This self assessment of you are the moral police and I really troubling it's so funny, I'm I'm! Supposing more or less right right, I'm I'm the religious guy, I'm the Orthodox Jew right. I talk about social standards and how people should behave in their personal life when it comes to government- and it comes
to me imposing my views on you. I am way less of a top down tyrant than any of the people in Silicon Valley. I am not here to tell you that you are not allowed to be on a platform, because we disagree. It's one thing: if you're threatening violence, which is an actual violation of law, but this crap, where people like me, because I believe in a social fabric built on certain judeo christian values, but I'm not forcing you to be part of that and I'm not. I don't think the government should compel you to be a part of that when I'm the tyrant, but the person who sits in twitter or Facebook, who is saying that they get to police what you see and they're going to nudge you in the right direction. Now did you in the right direction, without your consent, without them even telling them what you're doing right that they're, just they're gonna push you a little bit because they know better than you and they can sort of massage you in a better views. If we control your channels of information, this is something the Obama administration, a fine of there's, a a scholar in CASS Sunstein. As a legal scholar, he wrote a book called, not choose very famous. It was. It was used a sword, a handbook during the Obama administration and the ideas. Well, if we can just use a non for
simple means, sort of nudge people in a particular direction, without them, even knowing that are being nudged, then shouldn't we do that, and I think no, you shouldn't you shouldn't, because transparency is the only way I can tell what kind of bullshit you trying to sell me will not just that you you're closing down even conversation if soon as you trying to silence this other voice, if you believe one thing, another person believe that different thing, you should probably talk about it and the way. The way that I know for sure, there's something wrong with your argument is: if what you're trying to do, is your sneakily trying to silence these voices and again as long as we're not talking about threats of violence as long we're not talking about harassment or doxing right we're just talking about conversation, you just talking about people with different point. If you, if you want to silence differing points of view, I have to wonder about your intent. I have to wonder about whether you're going into this conversation with good
wait. I have to wonder whether you've really objectively assessed whether or not you your argument does hold up against scrutiny. This is also part of the problem and when you're in an echo chamber, you often don't formulate these arguments very well like when you confront people about certain bias believes that they have and you you have a an opposing believe if there part of a bubble like sometimes they might not have even ever considered some of the things you have to say, I've seen that with some of your videos yeah I mean it does happen all the time and with sophisticated people or I've spent my entire life literally and her life in areas where everyone disagrees with me, yeah I grew up in LA I went to Harvard LAW School for three years as an Cambridge, where everyone disagreed with me, and then I came back to LA so I have never spent more than a week at a time in a red state. Good is of your concern, values move one way or another of the I mean I did it all my personal, my probably values shifted very much, but my political values have shifted libertarian I mean so. I used to be
point of criminalization of marijuana. I'm no longer I've been in favor would change for you a couple of things. One was just a general sense of the government sucks at everything and the more I see the government tried to crack down on things. The more prevalent it becomes. I mean people were dealing pot on my sixth grade seventh grade playground in public school has obviously like la yeah, exactly and and then terrible, just a general, a general per exception. Not only the government sucks at everything, but that you got to own your own actions and also examine more of the evidence about the impact of pot on people's lives and there's you running your own life through use of drugs and there's drugs that legitimately ruin other people's lives or their drugs. That remove your ability to even reason or think. I think there two reasons to criminalize drugs in any fashion. One is if there are drugs like, for example, PCP that legitimately make you violent and then
we're going out and committing acts of violence against people. Then there's a case or, if you're talking about a drug where it legitimately robs you of your capacity to reason. If you were a heroin, if you were able to actually crack down on it successfully, but even there, I'm not sure that the proper government solution is criminalization because we've criminalized it and it's still incredibly prevalent so yeah. I agree with you. I agree with on that, and I agree with you in terms of drugs being extreme only detrimental, and the other part is that there is comparable drugs that are legal like incomparable drugs, meaning not even really comparable drugs that are far more devastating. Like alcohol like you, could just go to any grocery store and buy a jug of whiskey and kill yourself with it. It's not difficult and just like, we have one on the books already that prevent externalities. If you drive high, it's the same as driving drunk, so I'm not sure that you need a laws to do
and also you know, I'm not opposed to zoning laws like I don't think a pot shop should open up right next to my house right there, residential zoning, that's fine same with liquor stores, though right. I don't want a liquor store right next to my house. This correct is so I become liberty in some ways on that sort of stuff. The same thing is true by the way when it comes to the issue of same sex, marriage. So on a personal oral level, I'm opposed to same sex marriage in an orthodox Jew, and I believe that a man and a woman were made for each other. When it comes to government involvement, I don't think that's anybody's business. I think a lot of things I think adultery is bad too. I don't think the government ought to be involved in adultery. I I I'm I'm so strict. I don't think premarital sex is a good thing right. I I've been very vocal about this. I was a virgin until I was married. My wife is a virgin until she was married. I think that's a good thing, so I think the government has anything to do with any of those things. No, I don't. I don't think it's any of the government's business. It's consensual activity there are no externalities. So what exactly is the government getting involved in an when the government gets involved in stuff? Then there are externalities right once the government starts to cram down its vision on,
then you start to get unintended externality. So, for example, with the with the legalization, my view on marriage is that the government should get completely out of business. I don't think the government should be involved in straight marriage. I don't think should be involved in gay marriage. I think that uh and should be out. I agree one hundred percent and the reason that I say that is because, as a religious person who believes in traditional marriage, I have two. I have two marriage certificates. I have the one from the state that I don't give two craps about its bear somewhere. My garage and I have never leave my religious marriage certificate, which meant, among other things, that I got to stop my wife right. I mean like this is the one that matter to me and I think that's true. For most religious, all the religious ceremony matters a lot more than the state saying a thing and the state isn't incentivizing marriage people aren't getting married, wasn't like yeah. I need the tax break. So that's a bunch of nonsense and once the government decides what version of marriage wants to push that then comes into conflict with other values. So, for example, once the state of California decides that same so,
marriage is on legal par with heterosexual marriage. Now I'm worried about the externality of I have a religious day school or I have my synagogue. My synagogue is a religious institution. It doesn't approve of same sex. Marriage. Now is the government going to come in and tell my synagogue how it ought to act with regard to same sex? Marriage? I don't think that's the government's business, so how about this? How about everybody gets to do basically what they want associate with whom they want, and it's none of the government's business. That seems like a pretty good happy medium. I I'm so glad you talked about the two things I want to talk to you about that. I'm sure we disagree, one, I'm being marijuana and the other one being gay people marry each other. So, let's start with the marijuana one, do you think marijuana the Ruins people's lives? Is it's? What is that? One of your contentions? I think that it can and I think in the same way, you ever have any experience with marijuana. No I'm just talking about the I'm just talking about the statistical over use of marijuana among teenagers does have detrimental brain effects that have some long term. After effect,
it's pretty proven, and that's one of the things that I really I'm glad you said that, because I wanted to cover that when you were in the middle of a rant, when we were joking around about six and seventh graders selling pot, don't smoke pot when you're young, you really should it's not good for the development of your brain same thing with drinking. You know I didn't smoke a lot of pot when I was a kid, I did it a handful of times until I was thirty years old, but I did drink a bunch of times when I was young and in high school and it's terrible for brain development, especially before you're twenty five, your your frontal cortex, hasn't fully formed. Your frontal lobe is like this. It za develop. I think there was an article recently that I posted from BBC. They were saying that you probably shouldn't be considered an adult until you're thirty right there saying brain development doesn't even stop until you're twenty six or twenty, and this is why, when people are saying, let's, let's lower the voting age, sixteen I'm like what the what the fuck are you talking about in the world. When I was sixteen, I was a champ, I mean really. I was a chip in a high school now. The
problem that I have with many people's perceptions on marijuana is that it's based on ignorance, meaning not no personal experience with you, know and listen I'll admit I've. I've know personally know unit on it. So I know you don't I'm not speak, probably should get high. That's from trying to sign man. I seen the affects on on stock prices. When people get in the S, they don't jump up, jump down for a little bit of a bunch of chickens, jump off the boat, then they come right back up. Marijuana thing is, in my opinion, it's another one of those things where people have this, this cat regularised box that they like to put Mary wanna users in like this is the cat, a lazy, stoners stupid delusion all it's too widespread. For that I mean there. There are people, I know. Are doctors who yeah so well. There's a digit to community is a a big one. There is a giant percentage of the g two community. It does Ju Jitsu high. They have competitions competition tomorrow party. It's not me,
I'm telling you because it's not what people think it is if you've never smoke marijuana. This is going to be a very difficult thing to grasp, but Mary enhances Jiu Jitsu because it eliminates the rest of the world when you we're rolling with rolling is like say if you and Jamie are going to have a sparring match that would be rolling like it slap hands and then you go and you trying to show cam and he's trying to get you in an arm bar and you're going after it. When you do that on marijuana, it's like you, don't think of anything else in those movements, and it becomes like this very intense meditation in violence like you, it's not violent in terms of most of time. You don't really even get hurt. He's like you get to the point like one of your for things, budgets whose you can grab, hold someone and choked him to the point where they're going to go to sleep and you would kill them if you can going and they tap around your friends again and everybody is cool and you try to do it to me and I try to do it to you and you really can do it
reasonably hard without people getting hurt when it happens every day, all throughout the world allow these people are high and they're doing this jitsu practice in this almost like trends. It's a trick, suspension state. If you can function when you're using marijuana, I don't care, but you- and this is one of our perceptions- are off so I mean I would there's a small subset of the population for whom that's not true right, who are over using one, yes and and that's probably the majority in fact, okay. So so, then you know, but it's the same way with food. I agree. So I don't think there's anything we disagree about here, because I'm not talking about criminalizing marijuana use, but I think that we should honestly discuss the evidence that, for a subset of the population, there is some evidence that marijuana is addicting, but it's a subset. It's not buddy who's on marijuana. The vast majority of people on marijuana are not addicted to marijuana.
In the same way the alcohol industry about call as well. It is there's people that are going to be addicted to almost anything, and I think, there's there's absolutely people that are addicted to sugar, this, for short people that are addicted to nicotine and alcohol, and all these things we let people have the material addicts. This is marijuana is not comparable to opioids, though, for it it's not incomparable to alcohol or nicotine. It's it's of scene to be very rare when people become physically addicted to it extremely rare, and what it's common, though, is abuse, and it's common in everything that human beings consume. It's uh. This is common, as we said, with food, certainly comma, without call it certainly comma with pills, and this is why you know. I really believe that the way to solve some of the problems is a social fabric problem like in parenting problem, it's a social fabric problem to personal choice, problem. Yes, that's why virtually every solution I suggested so funny. I'm constantly can
it was like me who are libertarian leaning, are constantly accused of being non compassionate? No, it's just our compassionate solutions. Don't involve the use of government, it's like we're going to encourage people to make better decisions with their lives, and if you choose not to do that, it's a free country. Well, you know coming from religious background. You have this community that reinforces this kind of behavior and thought, and I think that's one of the major really one of the best benefits religion. Yet is that moral fabric in that community, the sense of community even selling, once like Mormons you know, they're they're, the nicest folks right, the believe, something that is fucking patently insane. If you go and read the Joseph Smith text, one thousand eight hundred and twenty was fourteen years old, the shit that he wrote like
I tried, and what into doctrinal insanity I we're only had all day Williams. I was going to get to that yeah, but you know what with that said, I mean Alexis De Tocqueville talked about this. You know early on in the American Republic. The idea is that what makes America very different is the idea you don't need. A big government when you do have a support of social fabric oriental feel like they're least oriented toward a common goal. It's one of the problems that I think we have in the country right now. I'm not sure people are oriented toward even a common sense of of conversation. Mmhm I mean it's, you don't have to agree on on everything in order to have a common sense of the important values that that unify the country or show yes- and I always you SAM Harris is sort of my, but no are here because he's obviously a militant atheist, I'm I'm in equally in in equally strong believer, and yet when it comes to the things that we would like to see happen in the country, not a government policy
level, but let's have a conversation level and discuss an evidence level we're on the same page. There are certain core assumptions you have to make in order for that to happen in my argument that America and the w is that those core assumptions are built on judeo christian foundations. Sam's core argument seems to be that they're built on evolutionary biology. We did for a little bit there um. I don't want to let this marijuana think go. Do you want one of things that I wanted to bring up to? You was this idea that, if you're religious person, don't you think that there's certain things that maybe God put here for us to consume, to change your perspective, to allow you to reach new levels of consciousness. Don't you think it's entirely possible that some of these things that are here- and I know you haven't experience, but they might literally have been put there by God and there's some evidence to say that a lot of the text from the Bible that in particular there was a thing. It was the Universe
City of TEL Aviv somewhere in Jerusalem or these scholars were they were true trying to decipher what it net when Moses encountered the burning bush and they believe that may have been the occasion tree, which is very rich and dimethyl trip to me, which is a psychedelic substance that actually that the brain produces it's very common in plants, and they think that this might have been when he met God, and God was a burning bush that this might have been some crude translation of them being involved in some sort of a psychedelic experience. Now it sounds outlandish unless you've had that psychedelic experience and when you have, you very well could think that you were in a conversation with God. This is on earth and this is something that may very well have been lost. Information, or this may very well have been rituals that people participated in to bring
and closer together and to reinforce that sense of community that you do get from a church and you do get from a group of people that she more beliefs and values and there's a there's, a real good discussion that a lot of these experiences that became these religious doctrines came from so experiences now, as someone who's never experienced that before I know this is probably a very strange thing to try to uh wrap your head around it's. It is in Byerly Alien until you experience it, but it might very well be religious. I mean I've heard that from other people who have been who've used, those kinds of museum actually made this argument to me too, about use of psychedelics and any maybe may not again. I apples well, okay. So there is argument, I'm I will say I'm not super fund of the argument. The God made something and therefore it's ours to use- or I mean like I keep kosher- rightly right- maintains underneath him. So so I I am not a huge fan of the argument that, because something is here
or because in urges natural, therefore we ought to imbibe or therefore we ought to participate in a particular activity. One of the things that I, that I'm very big and I'm not I'm a rationalist when it comes to religion as much as you can be a rationalist with red religion, to the extent that I think that it's up to us to use our reasonable faculties to determine the proper use of things so, which is why you shouldn't over used, even if you're going to use drugs for this is part of the problem making things illegal. You make things illegal, then you re, I don't know what it is is or how it affects the body or what's the right dose or the wrong dose, and then people get involved these terrible situations where taking things they're. Just guessing I mean there's for that, but it's also true that on a social level, I'm not talking about legal, because we totally agree on legal level on on the social level. There's a couple things that are true of, for example, the orthodox jewish community low rates of addiction, because people have that social fabric. They don't feel the necessity. Also, as you say, substance
use in moderation can actually be quite a good things to lower rates of alcoholism in the jewish community. In part of that is the fact that you are getting Kish wine from the time your kit, right, I mean you, act right, our artistic with time, yeah, it's d stigmatized in the idea, is that in its proper context, this could be a a good thing rise. So I'll admit, I don't know enough about the proper context of marijuana. To know, when would be a quote, unquote, good thing, and so you can and be a good thing. This is what I'm telling you and also you know. I don't know the truth. I don't enjoy drinking right, I'm not I'm not a drinker, I don't enjoy. I I like reality I like living in reality. You know like experiencing it totally sober, so I've never really felt the the urge to to do any of that stuff. I hear the pitch. I hear the pension, but I've never really felt the interior dire need it. I completely understand that. I think that what we're dealing with, though, is perceptions that have been molded by laws that were shaped by tyrants. That's what I think I mean again: that's totally possible implausible
and a mess. It's historically accurate. I mean when it comes to probation probation with alcohol, didn't work. Plot probation with drugs is just making the cartels bay. Here, it's causing more problems with organized crime on a practical level, whether you like drugs or don't like drugs government interventionism is generally a giant fail. I think our perceptions of what is good for you and is bad, for you is also based on laws that the government created ignorantly. These sweeping psychedelic act of one thousand nine hundred and seventy, which made virtually everything psychedelic that they could. They missed a few things, few things to the crack, but all of the tryptamines and or most of them I been lsd. All that stuff was made completely illegal by people really didn't even what it was. A lot of. That is why we based our ideas of what's good or bad for you. It's
based on what is legal and what and well all the other people have done with it on on this area. I'll admit not only complete experience deliverance but complete evidentiary ignorance. I haven't examined the evidence. I really don't have strong opinions on any of this. I think it's one of the bridges that we all could use between conserve have thought in liberal thought, particularly for people that are dying. It's one of the things at Johns Hopkins found and there's been other studies done and there's been therapy done on people that are dying of terminal diseases and they give them psilocybin and they give them these mushroom trips. They have these beautiful experiences with a completely accept death, and it's almost a universal reaction to it did did like the the amount of people to still experience a positive benefit months and months after the experience, while they're dying the date they say this was
an incredibly moving and powerful moment in my life. That allowed me to accept the fact that my time here is done, I mean listen. If that's something that works for people and that's what it's designed to do. I don't know because it's designed well, it is the right God. Well, if I get literally, might that that's fine, I mean, I think, there's also the generalized religious counter argument that there are no short cuts to it. No, no short cuts to to happiness. So, let's, let's pose this sort of thought experiment. I don't think this is the question right. I mean like let's say that I could guarantee you that tomorrow, you're going to be happier person- all you have to do is take this regimen of of drugs that you're going to take every day, and it's going to make you a happier person a more well rounded person but is going to permanently change your brain chemistry. Is that something that you think is good or is it something you think is bad is from religious perspective? There is an argument to be made that these are. This is work you need to do on yourself without outside aid, if possible. If there's cases where you can, then you can but
yeah. You know turns interesting thought experiment terms. We kind of had a line about that. He said that there was a joke about. There was a monk and he met Buddha, 'cause Buddha came to town and he said Buddha. He wanted to impress him. He said I've practiced a city of invitation, and I have done this for ten years and now I can walk on water and the Buddha says, put the fairies. Only a nickel. What do you fucking waste? Your time like you? Can aid the progression rapidly with psychedelic drugs, and this is something you know: do you know about maps and their work with MDMA and soldiers that have had PTSD not too much? Now, it's phenomenal by giving these soldiers M d M a therapy, meaning they give them M d M a which is essentially what people think of his ecstasy, the street. They give them Pew MDMA and then they assist them with they. They actually have a psychologist, sit with them a therapist
and they go over all these details of these traumatic events and they come to peace with everything and they've had profound benefits for US soldiers and for it we are some combat journalists, different people that have been over there and experienced you know the horrors of war and and just general PTSD, maybe for people who've experienced silence, attacks that is shown to be one of the very best things we've ever discovered for helping people get paid. Here's to me and I'm thing about this on the fly, because this is stuff I think about very much. But it's there's a complex moral equation to the extent that if you're talking about somebody who has PTSD, somebody has a condition and the only way to help that condition is to use these drugs. I've never had a problem with any of that stuff. Right I mean I've. My grandfather was schizophrenic and by may be bipolar, maybe schizophrenic. The diagnosis not exactly clear. They prescribed him lithium made him. A lot
would have been better off struggling with a schizophrenic, of course, not it much better that he should have let the and then be able to live in his rational mind. So when there's a problem using drugs to get past it and and work with, it is a good thing. You do run the risk of the sort of brave new world situation where you have a group of people who have a certain level of ersatz I mean is that is not driven by a point of view, but more by just the these chemicals in their their body. The chemicals affect two point of law. That is a hundred percent for him, but it are you evil, Harare talks about. Maybe this is the future right. He talks about the idea that maybe the future is we just drug ourselves until we're happy, basically more that happiness is the drugs, because, if you're, a scientific materialist, that's what it is happiness is just a bunch of chemicals flowing throughout your body. So if you can bring them in without self change, but I do wonder whether that rubs people of a certain
love purpose that that the struggle is part of being human. I think we're changing what it is to be human just by carrying around phones- and just I mean that's, that's true, but I think that that's again, one of the things that I think makes being a human worthwhile is the idea that you are struggling like. I think I think the struggle is actually meaningful and that's why religions tend to set prophylactic rules, sometimes for good and sometimes for ill. So, for example, I I am addicted. I thought I mean there's no question right. It's it's in my hand, all the time, and but from Friday night to Saturday night, it's off. I can't look at it and for men from looking at it, and this breaks the cycle at least for one day a week and that's a good thing that makes me better as a human being is a limit I set for myself and then a limit that I abide by and if you believe in in self mastery, what what is the happy medium between self mastery and I need a little bit of a and I think that there there is a happy medium there, but I'm not sure that that your drugs are the answer to that.
I think you're suggesting drugs are no, I'm not suggesting that, and I think, there's also a problem with the word drugs, the that the eat every things under that blanket in that blanket can be entirely negative or extremely positive and in order to generic, but I know, but there is a proper use it to not accusing you, but that term it's a problem. It's a problem. Term B is what these are: are substances that are psychoactive and some of 'em be extremely beneficial, and some of them have short term experiences. That last with long term results- and I don't think that there's is enough knowledge that I don't think the people that are negative against it- have experienced enough of it or have looked at it in an object, active rational way, because I think it's something that could be here to a perspective, the give people a chance to think outside of their normal condition
and way of thinking that might have been established by their community or by their church by their neighborhood whatever. It is sometimes in little bit of a break a little bit of a a mental break. From what your experience in the in the the vibration that you exist on almost every day to separate from that and to get a look, get it from the outside. Sometimes it allows you to have renewed perspective that can enhance your life greatly as long as when people re engaged re engaging in the level of disappoint thing, and this is what we share you and I are both discipline people and it's one of the things I really respect about you're very hard worker you're, always on the ball, you're very disciplined. I know that a lot of conservative people admire that and they Mayer that in folks and they think that people who are liberal or not discipline, they think that they're lazy. It falls into this like week,
beta male sort of Cara, gory of people that are progressive and liberal, and I think that's, I think, that's a misunderstanding. I think you guys you and I both agree- that the struggle is very important, but I'd struck Google physically, so that I don't have to struggle mentally. I struggle physically so that I can have a better way of looking at things with less stress. So we have this shared belief that things should be a struggle. My I forced my struggle on myself so that I could have a better perspective, and this is something that you and I differ on like. I think you exercise right yeah. How often you do try to every day. Yeah makes a big deal. Yeah, it's it's! A it's! A cast is a huge deal. Yeah I mean, I think you we. We both understand that struggle is a it's an important part of understanding yourself. If you do not push yourself, if you do not struggle you're not going to really go,
who you are, what your boundaries are and if you're self indulgent, if every day are stuffing things in your face that you want to like it's good to have a rule like hey for this next month, you can eat this or you can do that or I want you to start fasting sixteen hours a day. Is it that hard just eat for eight hours a day and fast for sixteen, but that just doing something like that in setting these guidelines for you south and putting yourself into a a a a disciplined state to be extremely beneficial, like Chaka, will likely says: discipline equals freedom. It is a great formula and it's real. Well, it's it's and again it is the base. This of a lot of religion, I mean a lot of religion is very practice. Base is one of the reasons I like Judaism, as opposed to other religions. They very practice based religion. You know, sometimes you can take that too far in one direction, which is, I say, you need to balance reason with dictates that are meant to make you better,
but that goes all the way back to Aristotle. I mean Aristotle talks about how you have to practice to be good. You have to practice to be virtuous. What makes you a virtuous person is acting repeatedly in accordance with right, and that is setting rules for yourself right. That is not violating every rule, and I think when we talk about on the conservative side, folks on the left being lazy- I I don't mean in terms of work I mean Mark Zuckerberg is a hard worker. I assume and Jack Dorsey when he's not getting bitten by by mosquitoes seems hard worker, but you know most most of people most people of jobs are hard workers, and I think it's about that. I think it's a it's. It's a certain perspective on the necessity of rules and and the mindset that, if I don't know what a rule is for I'm going to remove it so G K. Chesterton has this is very famous kind of contrast that he draws between people who tend to be right. Wing political and people tend to be left wing politically. He says people who tend to be left wing politically you're, walking through a walking through the woods and
across the funds. You don't know why the fences there. You say I don't know why this fence is here, I'm removing it and the person, who's right wing, walk through the forest and sees the fence and says. I have no idea why the fences here, I'm gonna, go, find out. Why the fences here and then maybe I'll, remove it and that's the kind of Burkey and conservative attitude toward rules. The the attitude that this rule was put here for a reason now may be the real sucks. Maybe the rule has to go, but let's try and figure out what was at the root of the rule before we just wipe out all the fences and then try to rebuild from the ground up all these new fences and that's especially true in a civilization, that's the most prosperous and free civilization ever created. I mean if the system really sucked. That would be one thing, but I think people are kind of ungrateful about the fact that we live in the best possible time in the best possible place and then that's the reality and everybody reality so negative about living in America, it's like. Okay in one thousand, nine hundred one
in ten american children died in the first year of life in one thousand, eight hundred and fifty the average life expectancy in Europe was under forty. So what are you talking about? What are you talking about like our biggest problems today, really for the vast majority of people is that we are too fat or that we don't have a job, but we still have some bud who's. Basically, making sure we have food like starvation is not a serious problem. In the United States there's a problem of poverty, but there's not a problem of widespread starvation. In fact, poverty tends to align with obesity. You know that this is a pretty unbelievably great society, so maybe you ought to know back at the roots of that society before we start Willy nilly tearing up all of the all of the moral boundaries. I think you and I agree that this the greatest time ever to be alive. I think what these other folks are saying is that we can do better, and I think we all agree with that, but it sure, but to classify this time as being a terrible time, is, I think, a whole really inaccurate. By the way I hate it right and left right, and this is one of the reasons it's one of the reasons why I think, there's a certain point where the trumpian populist right meets the Bernie, say
Populus left and that is them walking around saying how much things suck and it's like no, no, no wrong. It's an amazing time. It's amazing time for communication too. It's amazing time for people to kind of understand. Other peoples, perspectives in points of view, which is one of the reasons why platforming and in silencing of conservatives, even though I'm not conservative bothers the shit outta me, I I just think it's a it's a non, harmonious action in a time that I think could lead to people having it's more open and much more balanced communication. I mean they should be the time when we are having more conversation more fun with each other and where we are feeling more entrepreneurial. We have a better social safety net than ever. So. What? But? What? One of the statistics that really bothers me is that the level of american mobility has declined rapidly in the United States in the number of people who leaving their home state to go somewhere else to work. A job, for example, is that decades low why it's
anywhere now they're seven million until jobs, hey, I keep hearing from you know, folks, who I know personally like people I Tucker Carlson, that you know we you he grew up in a small town in the town is dying. The industry left. Well, you have the government somehow owes it to you that you get to grow up in this town and stay in that town, even if all the industry left- and I just think to Myself- by whom who gave you this guarantee that you get to stay there and I know: listen, I'm I'm a lucky guy. I grew up in a two parent household. We grew up wealthy, but we were middle middle class like I grew up in a small house in Br Bank with two bedrooms, and I had three sisters me and my three sisters in one bedroom and one bathroom for six people. That's not poor! That's middle class, it's a great life, and I understand some people don't have that life. The one thing that is guaranteed to you is the opportunity for adventure in this country. So go and move like why? Why are we inculcating a feeling of victimhood in a society where, if you make the right decisions, you will do? Well, I mean not, you might do well. If you make basic basic right choices, you
will finish better than you started in american society. I mean we're talking like the most basic choices like finish high school and don't have a baby out of wedlock and get a job like you do. Those three things in the Brookings Institute says that you will not be in permanent poverty in the United States. Like that's amazing, that was not true for the vast majority of history. For the vast majority of human history, you did all of those things there was in high school, but you did all the other things and then you live like a servant until he died at age. Thirty, seven of did very or something so it's it's just the the lack of I TIM is a minute society where it should be running rampant is, is kind of astonishing to me. Well, it's perspective right. I mean it. Rich kids grow up with this perspective of constantly being rich and people grow up with this person effective of how they view the United States. Is this negative thing or that they don't know
how to change their life? They don't know how to take action because they haven't had anyone around them that it's done it. That's part of the problem with small town mentality's is that you kind of inherit the vibe of the people around you and if they are ignorant or their their shallow minded or if they're they're stuck in this one in town and they're, never going to leave and you get caught in that vibe, you can one day, wake up and you're thirty two and you've never done anything. I mean, but even talks about in hillbilly elegy people who are in these small towns, and they basically been told that they have two choices. They can go on welfare, they can leave yeah. It's like a final on welfare and everybody around me is why why not is there's nothing morally deficient about going on on welfare? It is actually one of the bigger problems I have with the welfare state generally is just connect. The person receiving the aid from the person giving the aid one of the like in in our religious community take an example there. But there's a time a few years back where a guy came to me and bottom are from him his at an artist and to
really does good work. He came to me and he said my family doesn't have enough money to make the rent this month. Can you offer me in advance on our that you'll buy somewhere down the road and make sure? So I sent him a check and he understood that five year later, he came back to me and he said you know you still haven't bought that piece of art. I owe you a piece of art because he knew who gave him the money right right, and so he was willing to understand that that was an act of charity. He wanted to make sure that that that was paid back. This Cinderella, man right with Russell Crowe that moment where he makes money back into the welfare office and rolls out a wad like that that feeling that the government isn't just a giant cash machine that is, existence your money, but that that money actually comes from somewhere either it's coming from the future, because we have to pay back the debt or it's coming from somebody's tax money and that we all owe something to each other right and, by the same token, the what what I go to my neighbors is that if they are in trouble, then it is
obligation as a good person to try and help them out on a personal level. Yes right and the charity in religious communities is extremely high. That's that's the social fabric that I'm talking about yeah without without that sort of dutiful cents to one another. You can't have right, because if you just have right, then and and no duties, then there will be no one to take care of each other. It's white, while I'm libertarian, when it comes to government, I'm very conservative when it comes to the need to build a social fabric in communities and and and have people with working families and communities working families yeah. I I really think that that's one of the best things that comes out of religion
is when you have a tight knit community like yours, and you do have that sense of charity. Would you really are a community of people to care for each other and look out for each other? The problem is, of course, doing that large scale, and then the problem is doing in some sort of a non denominational where, where people died, they don't have to have the exact same beliefs, but they still share these core values of community in taking care of each other mean that's what people really benefit from when they done studies of people when they show happiness and what does happen is correlated with it's almost always a coral
waited with friends and loved ones and family. That's the most important thing can happen when it comes to diversity. There's the slogan: that diversity is our strength. Well, there's a Robert Putnam is a sociologist over at Harvard he wrote an entire book about the social fabric called bowling alone, he's kind of the pioneer in the idea of social capital, and what he said is that he went in with two writing this book with the idea that diversity is our strength and then he did some research on what he found is that ethnic diversity only correlates with two things. These are his words. Increased tv watching an increased protest marches. That's all it unless, unless it is within the boundaries of a common goal. So if you walk into a church, very diverse ethnically everybody's got the same general goal, which is we're worshiping God in one particular way, and we believe in a certain course set of values and now diversity. Great your experience. I come to bury or all aiming in the same direction. He gives the example of the army. You see a bunch of people who go in diverse group of people, diverse races, different backgrounds and when you talk to those guys, while they're serving or after they leave, they don't give a crap about the diverse backgrounds of the people there
serving with they're all aiming their guns in the same direction. Well, in the United States, we have to aiming our guns in the same direction or we can't really have a functioning social fabric at all, but I'm perfectly willing to give charity to people who I don't know who still believe like. I do that America is a fantastic country rooted in immutable e good principles, but that starts to break down when I'm being asked to give charity just on a personal level, to somebody who believes that America is fundamentally evil and needs to be torn out at its roots and replaced with something better because we're not aiming in the same direction. So on a human level. I care about you, but but on a social level. If I have a choice between somebody who basically agrees with me about fundamental values and somebody who is diametrically opposed, I'm going to get my money, the person who basically agrees with me, the most fundamental values and again I don't think those fundamental values have to be religious. And then you have to be a god. Believer Doris charity from me, or I don't think I should have to be an atheist, received
charity from you. But I do think that you do have to take into consideration a few things and now we're on the same page, personal responsibility. The idea that you do live in a free country just historically and relatively speaking. This is a free country which means decision making is on you. So man up a little bit that you that the decisions that you make we should all have sympathy for people who have had worse lives in worse experiences. But in the end, if you are capable, if you're not fundamentally disabled, in some way that you need to make a plan for your own life, and then you need to do that. Like are you more willing to give charity to somebody who has a plan for how to get themselves out of the whole? Of course um? Of course you know that, but that relies on that person feeling an obligation to do that, but I also think that what you're talking about with with charity within the community is so much more there's so much more connection than charity from the government when you're talking about welfare. The problem
there's is dissolving of responsibility because it's just to check the comes and you feel like well, this is a rich country, I'm this anyway right the end you know, and when I was a kid, we were on welfare and we we use food stamps and I I remember, being very shamed of it and feeling really weird that we were that poor that we needed help from the government, but my parents worked their way out of it. They were young, they had a kid. My guess is that my guess is that the social stigma probably has some to do with that, meaning that I'm sure didn't it didn't want to be on welfare, and I don't wanna be in foods in the contract. Your store with Adam Corolla is right and Adam talks all the time about how his parents were also on food stamps and welfare and extinguish they were just, and he always resented that he thought that was bad yeah. He said like you could work. Why aren't you and that gave him the impetus to get up and do what? What Adam has done so run? You know that that kind of it's not pick yourself up by the bootstraps, because helping hands are good, but it is if I,
if I were capable of picking myself up by my bootstraps, would I do so yeah and if the answer is yes, then we're all on the same team. But this is a real, proud. I'm too, in that some people, just get a horrible hand, dealt to the harsher at at birth there with the parents that really are doing a terrible job, raising them the them up every step of the way around a bunch of people that are criminals, everybody's up the there's, no examples of anybody, that's doing! Well, I mean this one of the unique things about the internet today. Is that a kid that's in that environment can get ahold of? Maybe some in that you said or something you know. Someone is sad and start reading books and start taking in information that gives them a different perspective and fuel that perspective with more motivational stuff and more information and education, and sometimes kids, just like we're seeing with Adam Corolla that grow up with these parents that are just now
ambitious, but also they become very ambitious and they work very hard to not be like them. I mean sometimes it's good to see that example, but most the time it's just fucking hard for them to reprogram head for sure, it's hard to do that. It's also hard. I really think that there's there's a lot of focus in the country right now on raising awareness, which is fine, no raise it, raising awareness of our history and all the bad things that we've done yeah, but I mean people, people should know about all the good things and all the bad things right. It's it's history, history, but this this incessant focus on the idea that lives are getting better by suggesting that their perennial victims in the United States- I just don't. I don't understand how that's a good thing. Yeah like as as a historically a member of a historically persecuted group. If I had grown up- and my parents had said to me no matter what you do, you will be put under the thumb of the dominant society. That's a pretty horrible message to tell to a kid, and I think that's true for politicians again on both sides of the aisle. I think you get it from from President Trump when it comes to some rural areas where it's like. Well, it's the Mexicans, the Chinese coming in to steal your jobs and you're under the thumb of people,
we're trying to destroy you and on the other side of the aisle people who say well, you're in the inner city and therefore the cops are racist against. You want to destroy you and everybody. Is you get you it's like? Well, how about this? How about like again, the single best thing you can do for yourself is make basic decisions that are entirely within your troll unless you are, unless you are raped, God forbid, single motherhood is a choice that you get to make about your life. This is a choice you get to make about your life finishing high unless you are legitimately disabled in some way I mean especially now UST, where you basically have to be able to read at the red level to finish high school. You know just just like these are these are just personal decision making. If you want I've, never seen somebody's life get better by complaining about reality. I've seen a lot of people's lives get better by engine. That reality is what it is and then making personal decisions to make their lives better and that's considered non compassionate. But it seems to me that the essence of compassion sometimes is saying at least make the baseline to take.
If you make the baseline decisions and then you fail, we can talk about what happened. I don't think it's non compassionate. I think it's pragmatic and I think you're right, but I also think that there's some people that are in situations that require something external to assist them there. The way their life has been set up, and this is what I think when people think about compassion and people pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. If you have a real, you really have an honest and accurate assessment of extreme poverty and terrible neighborhoods. It's not as simple as do something good to better your life. Part of it is you got fucking stay alive, certainly you're, surrounded by people who either have committed crimes or will commit crimes. You mean one out of every four people run into might be a criminal in the worse
neighborhood in the country for sure, but I think we have to this where we recognize what government is good at government is good at two things: cutting the other people, cutting checks from other peoples, money they're great at it, and they'll see their right on top of those parking tickets by the to make sure that they have done it and they're they're mazing additives using your money and and paying money they're very good at and and pointing a gun at people right is the two things the government was built to do was was collect taxes and pay out money and then point guns at people hi. This is what our government does so which of those two things. Would you apply in a situation where there is just come, delete lack of social capital because cutting a check isn't going to do it alone? Where is that check go to the parents who are not doing not able to protect their kids if you're, enabling the parents to move out of that community or something? But that's why I say you have to attach: if you're gonna do the government welfare thing you got to attach it to a planet, can't just be here's a check enjoy your life, because what is the plan?
I don't think one of those terrible communities. You live in an apartment complex, so I mean here's the reality. I think that the plan, very often when it comes to a crime ridden area, is the other side of what the government does, which is. You need more cops in that area. I think the great lie that these communities there are crime, ridden I'm talking bout, white, Appalachia and I'm talking about yes in a black inner cities. These communities do not need fewer cops. They need more cops because the precondition to investment in those communities and increase tax dollars in those communities and increase social capital in those communities as people not getting shot every five seconds I mean. That's, that's the worst thing that can happen to law abiding minorities is for the cops to and in areas where crime is high. It just doesn't make any sense, and that's not just you saying a Jane Leeves reported the Latimes very much on the left has said the same thing. While biting people want crime rates to go down like conditions have to change in it, unity for conditions to change in the community. Did you ever see the wild whites, wild and wonderful whites Virginia? No, it was a
is Johnny Knoxville. Did he produce that documentary? I think you did right dude it's about this family that lives in West Virginia. That is just a bunch of psychotic criminals. Is these crazy white people, the the kids drinking mountain dew and doing backflips on the bed and they're all on pills, it's bananas, and it gives you this insight like if you are in this community, if you were in this family- and this is obviously very extreme family, but there's many more of them out there that have not been documented. If you are in that community, good fucking luck getting out right, good luck! The money that you get other than welfare is from selling pills. You know everybody's on these Phil you're, all whacked out. You don't know what the fuck is going on half the day, you're on opiates mean it is odd, but Nana's environment and there's a lot of people like that in this country for sure and in poor latino communities and poor white communities of poor black communities. The idea that these people just gonna pull themselves up by their bootstraps. It's crazy. I
I think they don't have a plan and I think if we really want to help them got to be some way where you can give these people the opportunity to step out of that pattern, whatever that community centers out reach programs whatever it is, I don't know what it is. I mean the truth is the truth is that, historically speaking, it was people actually going to church yeah I mean and, and they're made, there's a good lot of good. I would church going person right. I absolutely recognize that there's a lot of good involved and having that frame right and and that that I'm not sure that that's yeah, I don't think you can create sort of a fake social fabric with just a government welfare system like it. Just it does, it has right, I mean disability exists, it's been increasing every year. It's not. This is question. I asked Andrew Gang actually or episode comes out on Sunday and obviously Andrew is a big fan of you by universal basic income and I'm not averse to the idea of you bye
in a future, where legitimately, fifty percent of the population can't work because they've all been automated out of existence and all of this, but there's one section in his book or- and we talked about how, if we cut people a check for you b, I then they will spend their extra time creating art and engaging sing in hobbies that they like, and I just thought to myself. I mean I sent it to him like people are what they're doing if you're on disability the people we're talking about who are suffering they're not out there writing poetry, I mean the rise of the opioid epidemic and people who rod ing on drugs and all this stuff. That's in precisely the same demographic talking about you're, just talking about a check from one place as opposed to another place. I don't. I don't really see how that solves the problem. I think we have a crisis of purpose. Yes right now, and I don't think that that crisis of purpose is solvable, on the one hand, by changing our trade rules, and I also don't think that crisis of purpose is solvable by cutting a government check. I just don't think that that's how people are wire.
I absolutely agree with you that there is a crisis of purpose. My concern is about automation and my concern and uh. Obviously I haven't really studied this other than talking to Andrew Yang and talking to Elon Musk and a few other people that are proponents of universal basic income. They think that there's going to be such a massive loss of jobs in such a short period of time from people that non skilled laborers and it's going to go away, millions and millions of jobs, and these people are not going to have anything and they could be chaos right. So there's there's two problems that come up there, and this is where Andrews Book is interesting, because problem number one is that the people will be poor. They will have a source of income. Can you be? I saw that the other Florida, but doesn't even that, gives him one thousand dollars a month. If you have it right, I mean, even even if you just had a swedish redistribution system and the average tax rate went up to sixty percent or something it might. Let's say we could solve the money problem for a second which you know without tanking the economy, which is questionable. But let's say we could do that. We could add trillions of dollars to the budget every year and we could tell that I'm still not sure
that solves the deeper problem, which is that when people lose jobs they lose purpose. So I'm not sure that you buy solves that prob done. As I say, we have. We have a rich social welfare network in the United States and we're seeing this stuff happen anyway. No I'm I'm a little bit, I'm a little bit less catastrophic. By little bit I mean a fair bit less catastrophic in my thinking about automation and then either and reading or you one must think that people be able to adapt quicker. I have to do to avoid the problems will realize that jobs aren't there anymore and they'll just naturally gravitate towards other professions overtime, that people will do that, but they're not always the same people there's always shift in the economy and the the ideal economic model has a truck or becoming a code right. That's that's not read. That was the whole learn to code fiasco right. I people kicked off of twitter all right. It still shows exactly yeah. Apparently, if you say to journalists, then that's very bad. If you say the code to a truck yeah, that's what it was that we learn to code to a trucker. If you say learn to code with trucker, then that's just you being helpful. If you say learn to code to a journalist, then that is tar
harassment on Twitter. That's when someone says it to me. Well, how does it work? Doesn't care about you hey whatever once he doesn't understand, but it's I mean. I think that, but if you just say it to a friend, hey fuck, face learn to code, then it now is your address for you today, the six hour over it. But it's it's a dumb thing to take people out for its one of the best examples of like how censorship just overstepped its boundaries and becomes almost like satire yeah. It's it's really. It's really really user like this is the biggest aggression ever learn to code like a cat. Okay, that's something look! This is a stupid thing that someone said about coal miners. They literally said that about coal miners that maybe they can learn to code, and so I there was a so learn to code, became a joke and became to something that you would mock people right. There is there explanation, for it was so crazy. It was like no then learn to code got connected with premises and all this other stuff, like that, that's that's the
all right. Those are bad. His worldwide missus are bad. They use the phrase learn to code. That means, if you say, learn to call your white supremacists. Look. What happened? Sorry lost the frog that frog the feels good man product. That's what happened to pat hey, they lost from the turn the fricking front. Gaming look yeah, yeah yeah, I mean it's not as far as automation. You know the there's constantly people saying this is the the Nicholas missing telly view of reality, which that the blacks one incident can happen any any so so watch out for it versus the sort of Steven Pinker view of reality, which is the black Swan incident, is blacks, one incident because the blacks one incident, meaning that it happens. Incredibly rarely I you know the the idea that we are on the verge of a catastrophic dropping job numbers because of the automation of trucking, for example. I I'm
not sure that I buy it. The reason I don't buy. It is because you still don't need someone sitting behind the wheel of that truck their human drivers on the road it's going to. There will be a gradual transition away from some of these jobs with the entry and talk about radiologists and how radiologists are going to be priced out of the market by computers that can do a better job of diagnosing tumors. First of all, awesome I mean that's, that's good. For that brings down cost end. You won't get cancer as advance that be that big, a thing taking off what what a lot of technology studies have had tended to show is that technology just gets integrated in the different way and in particular career, so there will be jobs that are eliminated for sure they'll be jobs you have heard of that will be created also, and mostly technology will will become more of a productivity aid to two people. So this is true. In fact, Aries jobs have been lost in factories. The best example of where jobs are lost, but it's mostly turn offices right how many office jobs have been created because you have computers? Was the war office? Jobs exist because I write by hand. Do you think that this is akin to like a government bailout like the idea of the government?
Bail out was like the banks are too big to fail, and some people thought you know what you gotta. Let them fail, so you figure out why they failed and will never have it happen again. If there is this thing and the government steps in and says, wait a minute, I know you lost all your jobs going to give you one thousand dollars. You have to figure it out, one thousand dollars a month and some people go. Ok, I'm not going to figure it out now, whereas those people might have gone on fear filled journey to try to figure out their purpose in life because now they're stuck where their job doesn't exist anymore, so there put in their owner, we have to act there is. There is innovation that comes from from a welfare check. I mean there are people who become dependent on government than there used to be dependent on that. That stuff is true, it does happen and listen. Milton Friedman made an argument for universal basic income as a replacement for the welfare system. There is another problem with universal basic income that I asked you about also, and that was one of the one of the big issues is that poor people very often people who are permanently impoverished, not people who are temporarily poor,
but they tend not to spend money where we think they ought to spend money that money and not putting into education or into they might just be a fine hose and cigarettes. I mean the the average the average person who is making less than, I think is sixteen thousand dollars you're spending four hundred dollars. Your lottery tickets are generally just flushing money down the toilet. So it's it's. So how do you are you just gonna end up back in the same place, good in six months where people took that money and used it in ways that actually didn't benefit them in at a certain point, the question is: do you own your decisions? You do not own your decisions and at what level of incompetence or inability do we say you no longer on your decisions and so we're just gonna take care of you on a permanent basis. That's that's really the the the question here. I think we're looking at when you talk about welfare, we're looking at worst case scenario right, we're someone does get depend upon the welfare state and does use that money frivolously and does make poor decisions. But then there's got to be other
people that are single moms that you know maybe had a kid with some fucking asshole. It doesn't want to pay and it is a piece of shit and they have to hide from them and they're just trying to feed their kids for sure those people exist to one hundred percent have a community to help them out and maybe they're not a part of the shirt, and maybe they don't have a good group of name. Maybe they had to move somewhere for work and they got stuck in some place, for they don't know anybody, but it I I think part of this is to to recognize that incentives matter on both, and so the idea is that you give some people more money and they'll they'll do well. It's also true that if you create a way for system that benefits single motherhood, you will get more single motherhood. I mean the single motherhood rate in the black community before welfare was twenty percent. Now it's. Seventy percent in the white community was like five percent. Now is forty percent. You said that like out wed, lock children and having a kid when you're young is like it's a terrible idea for your life. But what do you recommend to have kids avoid that? Are you one of those people that things don't add up there? Without that thing on it,
no condom scissors and brett- I don't don't have I don't. Don't have unprotected sex in like this? This is not it's not pardon. My my fake cursing. It's not nothing rocket science. I mean I was as a friend, not curry. I'm positive or not yeah, it's it's! It's not rocket. Science is one of the other kids make mistakes in them and that's what happens? Okay right on it, but and then, if the government pays for those mistakes becomes less. So what should what should happen to the the kids suffer? Who, no, I mean production would be actually be worked out. I mean it depends on the situation. You know if their parents available to the kid, presumably the parents, the grandparents, would take a pretty active role in the in the raising the think it also make well how about this? How about? We assume that, if you are old enough to get pregnant, then you're old enough to let's talk about seventeen year old daughter, eighteen year old, used to be shocked me,
which is where things and really think that's a good idea. I think the idea of parents staying together for the sake of a kid that they accidentally board, is absolutely a good idea. Yes, I think that I think that is better idea than the man walking away and the kid being without a man in the house, so you're saying that and a lot of people figure a way to work it out. Yes and if they're both reasonable, they could do that yeah, and I think that that, by the way, a huge percentage of american births in the forties and fifties where exactly this are a lot of seven month. Babies in the forties and fifties yeah, I think it's something like thirty to forty percent of all kids born in the thirties and forties and fifties were seven month. Babies. I got knocked up right. The expectation was nagging like you did, that you did the crime that you do that, I'm right here with you. She did. This threat, puts people and relationship prison good and doing that I don't know. If they don't, then don't ask, don't die and find it find find something sexier you find it. Somebody have sex with. Do you actually think is worthy of a relationship right now or online pornography is available,
like figure if you're? Okay with that on a moral level, you know, but if I going to, if I'm going to compare that to having a baby out of wedlock and yeah, this is what I think about pornography. They could stop now and we're good forever yeah, the kids they keep making it like. I think you guys there's no there's no supply and demand problem. Thank you like making it you guys are a bunch of freaks. I mean there's, no, it's like a business. It's almost like. You have excess houses that stack up to the moon, but there's no way everyone is going to live it all those houses. Why do you keep making house there's no way? One person is ever jerked off to every video that ever existed. It doesn't it's not possible and it's also like other forms of media where they just stack up. I never really thought of that. Until we have the backlog of internet pornography and, like you know, I'm a month behind now, let's just think about music right, there's all the music that existed before in the fifties,
the sixties and the seventies and the eighties and there's new shit every God damn day it never ends this overwhelming library of stuff that we have to expect. It would be good if that music changed from time to time the same song recorded seven different ways. You know what kind of shit do you listen to? What do you think I listen to the classic jazz in class? Of course. Yes, we just so interesting, and I was I was at a concert level violinist until I was until I was like seventeen to practice. Yeah I mean that the only expensive object that I often other than my house is is violent. I really yeah. Is it a Stradivarius? It is now it is. It is it's not. I know, yeah, that's the yeah they're, the two that people may know or Stratton and like a coronary, but those those ones are like hundreds of thousands of dollars in the tens of dollars. Stradivarius his hundreds of thousands of dollars, the guy who we knew my we hit a million dollar Stradivarius,
and I was so big about it- was the big deal about. Well, I mean, aside from the historic value the thing they're, not making any more of them. It does play very differently and you know very differently. Okay, I had a crappy violin for most might like really into the last two years. I had a violin that was handed down my grandfather. That was worth maybe thirteen hundred bucks and it was a piece of crap. I mean it's a it's, not a good violin. If you're good enough, then you can tell the difference between a really great violin to play and one that is a piece of garbage, and I was good enough to do that. So that's yeah I mean I I was. I was a classical guy. I played I played violin for years and my dad was growing up. My dad is a pianist look at what Jamie just pulled up the most expensive violin the world sold for an estimated sixteen dollars million for a strategy never lose value. I mean really: they don't is it. This is a good investment, the person I know
the guy who offered his offer to Strat. It think it was two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, maybe ten years ago and he's like no. That is worth like three million dollars to know. What is the deal like what I had to explain? What's the difference between the sound that this makes so I mean it has to do with the acoustics of the instrument in the wood quality. There's variations in the construction of the instrument, certain parts of it are thicker or thinner, and it is also it's easier to play about her violin. So it almost covers for your mistakes. When you play a bad violin intends to scratch and screech more that's why, when you get in the upper register with a violin, you had very high note that can either be very screechy or could be very beautiful. Some of that a lot of most of that's the player, some of that's the violin yeah Haif, it's who's widely, the greatest violinist to ever live, but he had a strad and lady Blunt Stradivarius, cost fifteen dot nine million dollars by these, and then they let them out on loan to worlds great violinist. So but there's a button
in the end, it really is the quality of the player. There's a famous Yasha Heifetz story where he was playing at Carnegie Hall and some lady came up to him. Afterward and she said you know your violin. Just it sounds so beautiful and he picks up the violin puts it was here and he says funny. I don't hear it right now. So do you listen to any other kind of music yeah I mean I like I like some classic rock yeah, I mean see rocking out yeah. I went to a Doobie brothers concert. My parents know you really it yeah. That's a band bandit main named after a joint. That is true. That's how exactly I know did you feel go like a center as a as a rebel. That day is really going to the Doobie Brothers concert with the other boomers, so the other day thing is same sex marriage. So the other thing that I think that we disagree with well, we agree with marriage thing right documents: government should be involved. I think where people should be protected is through assets, and
you know that contracts. Yes, yes, I think that that all makes sense to me that all that stuff is of like alimony and child support, all those things make sense to me and that then the idea of the committee unity reinforces it, which would then become the government reinforced and all that stuff. That all makes sense to me. I understand it, but why do you care if two gay guys want to get married so from a religious sure? Let's go? Finally just so so, and you want a secular point of you first, so the the idea is not that I care deeply whether two gay guys wanna get married to each other. The idea is that it do. I prefer traditional marriage to set to same sex marriage. It will. Let me let me phrase this way. What do you think a gay guy is? Do you think someone's they're making a choice, or do you think that this is how they were born? So the religious point of view on this, and- and I think this is actually just the general concern
the point of human action generally- is- I don't know, meaning that, for the vast majority of people out assume that they have a biological drive to engage in that behavior, but the traditional sort of will point of view is that biological drive does not necessarily match up to the activity you ought to engage in men, for example, have a biological drive to impregnate many women? That's not something religion is cool with either right. So the idea is that religion is cool with the man being with one woman and impregnating her, but you're not cool with a man being with a man, so I can give you the religious expo. Should I come with secular explanation, so the religious explanation is that there is something different about a woman. Then there is about a man, and a man is made better through his union with a woman and that if you pervert the sex drive to pursue mere pleasure instead of a lasting relationship upon which the base of society
he is built, then you are foregoing the proper use of your sex drive right. But if you wanted to step in and argue against that, you would say that just because someone can't get pregnant doesn't mean that they don't have a loving relationship to contribute society. That's true, but it is also for going the more productive relationship of being able to bear and rich and also, and also the menacing. There are nine different right and and recognizing. Also the sexes are not the same. Wrote it you know, being with a man, is in a relationship different than being with a woman. I would assume I mean I assume that White gay guys are gay if it weren't, then I assume that would be fine with being with a woman right. So that's so that relationship from a from a religious perspective is more valuable, because women have different qualities than men. You round off each other's harsh edges. It changes you, I mean you're married being Mary changes, a man in a different way that being married to a member of the same sex would right, but I don't want people to have to do it. But if you're me that I'm not forcing anybody right, but I want them to have the
option and if you're a gay person- and we just don't- let up not me of course, yeah. We agree right, yeah, legal and I keep making this distinction 'cause. Whenever I talk about my moral perspective on things, then people immediately assume that I'm a theocratic, fascist and they just want to keep underscoring. My personal views on Dave Rubin's marriage are of no consequence to public policy in any way whatsoever right. But I agree with you on that and I don't think it should be a part of public public policy and I think people should absolutely be allowed to marry and divorce and do whatever the fuck they want to do, no matter who it is. But why do you care, like as a person, is a rational thinker? It's pretty clear that people are gay and I don't really think that this is a decision they make in terms in terms of like I'm, going to make a clear choice to defy. God can be gay, I think they're just getting well again, I think that's a conflict if it's everyone, it's a conflation of identity and drive with activity, which is something that religion fundamentally reject
right. So Legion fundamentally rejects the idea that you are driven to do something and therefore it is your identity. Therefore, you get to participate in a behavior. That's it that's chain of thinking that religion, so in religion. If a man is gay in your religion, yes, a man is gay and they're in love with another man. They should just squash those thoughts and find a woman. Well I delete they would be honest with the woman in there is there not by boasting about what would want want to actually get a woman. You would still get married and have children in heterosexual alati, if you're not up to that, then you wouldn't get married at all to. When you describe this to a gay man, they will tell you you imagine Ben Shapiro. If someone said to you, you should stop being with your beauty, wife and you need to now marry a man, because this is what God wants you to do so you're going to have to stoop this man and he's going to stop you,
because this is how the rules are set up. So far sounds pretty terrible here right. Well, this is how it sounds too, gay folks when you're telling them they have to find a woman like I like, I'm, not saying you have to find a woman, I'm saying that's kind of what I'm saying you can't do ex right, nothing but must but say can't, but by whose determination, if you decide to participate in this religion right, then there is a buy in to the precepts of the row legend and the buy in is well. No, the buying is that you can have whatever sexual orientation you please, but there's certain activity you can't participate in, so you can be gay, but you can have gay sex correct. That's that by the way. That's what the Bible I mean if you want to go direct to the text of the Bible, it's what the Bible actually says. Right, I mean even the parts of the Bible that people
really hate. Those parts say that a man shall not live with a man. It doesn't see a man can't be attracted to another man, that's old testament, right yeah, then that's it right. That's our stuff right, new testament that it gets well harsher in the new testament. Some places Romans yeah, but in any case you know, but again when it comes to. This is what I'm puzzled by is the idea that this is a unique area of human behavior, that religion is supposed to treat differently. Many religion treats virtually every human activity like this sin is a failure to abide by a covenant right. That's what is the definition of sin when you commit a sin in Judaism in Avera in Judaism, what you are do thing is failing to do a mitzvah, which is a commandment you're violating a commandment. Well, there are lots of commandments that go directly against what people are driven to d'oh, just because of the drive is stronger. Do not make it morally more morally non culpable to violate that commandment. So what
we'll pick this one out and they say well, this one is particularly intolerant. For example, I don't see why it's more particularly tolerant, then saying to a man that you have to marry one woman or saying to a Jew that you are not allowed to eat this stuff or you like it. It may be harder that I think, is any question it's harder to abide by the commandments, but it is well within religious tradition, like literally every religious tradition, that there's a bunch of stuff you're driven to do that. You can't now again you'll have to agree with my program that that I'm not trying to convert you this one nice thing about my religion. I don't give a crap whether people are jewish or not like we, we actively discourage converts, but if you're going to proclaim that you are, you know abiding by traditional Judaism. This is the buying right. There's a lot to buy and you have to wear a funny hat. Sometimes you have to you have to go to shul on saturdays. You have to keep your body like there's a lot of buying and as long as I'm bothering anybody else, I frankly don't see what business it is of legitimately anybody's. What I think about personal relation
chips, I'm not imposing my view on anybody else. Well, I do acknowledge that at all the religions, Judaism, probably makes it the most obvious. They don't give a fuck what you do go ahead. Do your thing like they're, not trying to service you're, doing your business, my uncle converted and very was a grind. Man had to learn a lot of shit three years of the grind a long time, it's a long time, so that was a religious perspective. On the secular perspective when it comes to valuing tradition, marriage over over same sex, marriage, that's a very simple calculation, which is one type of marriage, produces traditional children from the traditional biological way. And then you have both parents in the house to take care of the kid right. That's the value of marriage- and I fully agree- is that when the value of marriage shifted from it's about production ring of children too, it's two people who love each other. The case for same sex, marriage again same sex marriage went completely out the window right. So you are,
is sticking to your rigid ideology in terms of like what you believe to be a send, and I believe this be ascend, based on with your religion, based on this very strict moral fiber that this religion is operate in a religious context mean it applies to me. It applies to my family. It doesn't apply to you right, but is there any room for growth in that? When people have a our understanding about biology like it, if it was proven, if there's proven like oh, this is why a person develops blue eyes. This is why a person is gay. This is why nothing wrong with. It is just a very red hair. It's freckles, it's gay! It's straight can tell me that that homosexual sanitation is one hundred percent biologically driven, and I will almost completely agree with that. I think that there's some cases where it's not but there's a rare, but particularly by the way the research tends to show that there's more sexual
Lydia among females and males males it tends to be either heterosexual or homosexual. Research is all done by dudes want their wives to hook up, which is keep going until in the shop but honey. Let me just show you the paperwork, but so is wrong, but again that it it's it's a question. I've always found actually not particularly interesting, simply because it doesn't take into account the worldview generally, which is that a biological drive does not equal excuse for behaving in a certain way. But that's where it brings me back to this like. Is it possible that these laws in this religion were written when they're? What mean the two? Who, you think wrote the stuff? Do you think people wrote the stuff, but you think God wrote, I think either way. Even if it were it, I mean, because I am a an orthodox Jew. I believe that at the very least, it's got inspired and God written right, but even if I believed second level that human beings wrote that stuff. So I think the people three thousand years ago had never seen a gay person before
do you think they understated, like the very reason to have a commandment, is because certain people in your community are behaving in a particular way. Presumably right, there's no commandment not to take your head seven in a meat grinder. Well. This is also the argument against pork because they didn't understand trick. You know, Sis, I understand you have to cook the meat to one hundred and forty five degrees and pork parasites, which are very dangerous for people. So I'm not a huge fan of naturalistic explanations for religion. Don't you think? That's a good one, though, for pork I mean I don't know like I think could make an argument. Maybe they should just died in India and there's was horrific x rays of his head. He had parasites from pork that had gotten into his body and they had nested in his brain of developing all these cysts inside of his head, and they couldn't do anything about it. 'cause. It was so deep in his head that if they gave him the anti anti parasitic medication, it would cause swelling of the
main and it was like it was. It was so sad I feel not so from now on hello story. It's actually pick apparently accidentally coming in contact. The pig produces this particular type of parasite. Yes, I culture it's more rare, but it, but it trichinosis was pretty calm again. Their attempts to sort of paint back into the Bible, certain rationalist iq explanations. That doesn't make sense, though I think why else would you would it be bad eat pig like Jesus loves pegs? So, what's going on, I well, I I think that the the reversal of the kosher laws in the new testament- you know from from a jewish point of your. We don't believe in the divinity of Christ, right that there you can make an argument that the the gospels which written he was just. I fit in if it no, no, we don't believe is profit. What do you think he was? What do you guys? I I mean I I what I what I think he was historically. I think he was a Jew who try to lead a revolt against the Romans got killed for his trouble. Just like a lot other Jews at that time were crucified for trying to lead revolt against Robin got killed for their trouble, so he became legend and story and I became a bigger,
a bigger deal, yeah getting group of followers and then gradually grew and then do you think it was resurrected? No, that's not that's, not a jewish belief. Look I just want you know where you know it is already stories. No, that's! No! Now you have any miracles, no, not not not by Jesus. There was the in the old testament splitting the sea and all that and all think what there, what I think happened, yeah well I'll go with my monody, an explanation that there was. I mean it says in the Bible, there was a strong east wind. So there there's a naturalistic explanation for a physical phenomenon. It makes sense. I mean that's so that's what my Ma Tiny's is constantly trying to do is read nature back into the Bible yeah. That is the problem with these text. Right is that your trying to decipher translations from original tax, which are written in ancient hebrew thousands of years ago and we're told an oral tradition for than that right right I mean this is this is where my mom, my book, which I always hesitate to pick my own stuff, because it sounds gauche pitch way, but the
book, the right side of history and number one New York Times, bestselling nonfiction, but damn it. You got number one in the New York Times best selling, really old enough that we not Michelle a bomb out of the lot for weeks, as is their protests. Well, no protest yet, but suffice it to say the New York Times Book Review or didn't like it. But now I'm not super shocked by that, but the the basic contention that I make is that judeo christian values, on the one hand and then human reason on the other greek reason really that that tradition is attention and that that tension is where western civilization lives. That basically civilization is a suspension bridge. It takes certain fundamental precepts of judeo christian values on the one hand, and then takes creek reason and they're pulling against each other and sometimes reason feels like it's going to dominate religion, and sometime feels like religion is going to dominate reason and the best of all available world. You have a a bridge that is that is capable of building upon it, where you can actually have a functional civilization, and if you lose reason in the name of theocracy, then you end up with to radical
theocracy and if you lose and if you lose religion in the name of reason, you end up in some pretty dark places. Human beings don't have a very good track record of creating their own purpose, creating their own meaning, creating their own systems. We tend to get very utopian very quickly and things get really ugly, which is sort of the story of the particular half of the 20th century. So this is the benefit of sticking to the rigid ideology. That's prescribed by religion is that you don't allow the human beings to keep updating it and changing him, because if you do, they will eventually slide into chaos. Yes, but there's there, which is not to say, there's not playing the joint, whether they're. Certainly religion has morphed over time. Record is um. Is it was practiced originally, probably in many ways does not resemble Judaism is practice now, in fact the Talmud even says this. I mean there's, there's this kind of fascinating and counterintuitive section of the Tom. Would where Moses is it's it's? What is called the God attack, which some of these stories that are just kind of
in today, in the middle of the Thomas, where Moses comes back and he's watching from on high as a bunch of rabbis in you know, second century Palestine are, are talking about Judaism and he's like I don't recognize any of the stuff like I brought down these books from the mountain, and I do not recognize any of this stuff and, and God says to him it off at a it got system right I mean this is hello. This is Morgan, Moses pleased. In other words, he he's not Judaism has always had a common law tradition re using reason to try and develop the ideas behind the commandments and then try and extend them abroad in them, and I think that's a good thing, but you have to be careful not to completely undermine fundamental roots or or get rid of bass
precepts. In other words you have to you have to now. Is there certain fundamental truths that exist there and then there's played as far as how those are implemented? Does Judaism have one of those pray? The gay away traditions, no, that's not that's not a thing, I mean it's. What do they want guys to do like? What would you say? What would you do if not we're not not to sin, but against sin is a sin is a thing that everybody does, meaning that masturbation is not is not okay. According to you is um. I assume that a vast majority of young jewish men, even the orthodox or masturbating so people since I mean that's, that's a recognition. It's always again. I think I can speak on behalf of I will audaciously become, have both Jews and Christians. Here. I think that religious people are are told that when they say that something is a sin, this means that they are looking a scant at the people who are committing the sin, and that is not correct. I mean
what isn't and Christianity say is that we are all committing sins on a fairly regular basis where we get up is when people start saying, because I have a desire, or this in this is no longer a cent yeah. The real problem is like what. Why is it a sin who says it's a sin so again again this these rules, you were assuming are influenced by God right but clearly written by people. Well, the this one, you would say if you're a fundamentalist, or at least somebody who believes in the the idea that the Torah was given by God, was given, literally by God, but again that doesnt the the logic behind the rules, which
you know, people like my monitors, have tried Thio explicate. The idea is, as I said, a second this you can do without God, this party, without God the human sex drive, was made to procreate with in a stable relationship in order to project a rate and have future generations of people misuse of that sex drive in any way. Whether you're talking about from masturbation to homosexual activity, is there for a diminishment of the use of that drive. That's the natural law case against against homosexual activity. And again, I will reiterate for media matters for the one millionth time, I'm not in favor of any of this being encoded into american law, because freedom is freedom, people should be able to say how they choose so long as they're not harming anybody else right. No, but what about people that have had vasectomies and what about women? That also is not called the second he's, not cool with it. I need this catalysis and from what I understand, rent right, yeah. Well, I'm not a big fan of that. One thing that I have more experience with, but ah so, if I would have
command is sterile and the woman sterile they allowed to have sex it's in both know. So yes, because there are ancillary benefits to married couples having sex like relationship building, but that's not a generalized case against the favored view of sex. That's sort of like arguing that intersect old mean that there's no such thing as two separate sexes. There are two separate taxes and also their intersex people who have a connection yes right, and that that's the same thing here. The the case in favor of heterosexual sexual activity does not change based on the fact that some people can't actually participate in that. What would you do if a young gay guy came to you for advice? If someone said hey Ben the mire of yours, I love the way you think and follow your philosophes, but I've got a problem. I'm young Bush man and I'm gay, and I don't know what to do. What would you tell him to do? I mean I can't tell them to do anything right? What what I? What would you advise
you tell it? Would you would tell him to not act out on those feelings. I would say you do the best you can, as a human being and from my moral perspective, you try to avoid sin as best you can, but everybody since the problem this that sin, though it seems to me that it was defined by people, didn't understand biology because they were dealing with humans that existed one thousand five years ago. Again, I really understanding of why people were gay a again. I I really don't think that biblical commandments are linked in and religious claim is generally are links to a few of biology, meaning that you don't think so. No. I think that all sin is a recognition that we have drives, that we are supposed to forego. Okay, that that's pretty much I mean- that's that's fundamental to certainly Judaism, and it's the Christianity as well, I would say, is one even: has this basic precept right when I think we can agree that, there's some real benefits to discipline his real benefits to having structure an it doesn't mean that you can't be creative it does
you can't be free and do whatever you want some of the time too, but I think we can both agree that this is one of the one of the best benefits of an ideology and what what fully a positive ideology right, and what one of the things that I, the reason I keep coming back to the governmental regulation point is because my view is that, if your view of discipline is not my view discipline can you write like god what you want to do like I've, never had a conversation with Dave Rubin about about him being a gay guy right, but you did say that you work wouldn't go to his marriage. Well, I said right as a religious person. I can't say I can't actively participate in something that I consider to be a sin, but I would go out to dinner with David his husband any time like my wife, and I would do that. Of course, we'd have him over to our house with his husband is no don't find any contradiction between your religious perspective and your personal perspective in that regard, that you would wouldn't be there for religious reasons, but that you would be
air for personal reasons like if it wasn't with you. Would you go to the after party? If you wouldn't go to the wedding, would you go to the after part, anything that was a celebration of same sex, marriage now wow, so anything but like if go to the party now? Is it does barbecue the next day? We consider it a tag on again like I'm, not sure why I'm not a good party person. So I'm not sure. Why would want me at their party frank part of a, but I haven't been to a party with you, but I went to a dinner party with you. That's right. We had a great time that was a good time. That's that's a funny picture man. That is why I don't know what the to think about that picture. We had a certain Eric and American as I am, and it's you and I it's like what was promised in one place right now, all the yeah, that that is a disturbing one when they're, just just lump you in with a bunch of fucking psycho, pass just because it's convenient for them and it's an easy way, toe diminish you that that that is. Ah that is
thing that I see more from the left then from the right, and it's really disturbing. I always thought until this clickbait generation came along. I always thought that especially well, you know the New York Times is obviously the higher standard, but that you would never see that kind of shit from progressive people. You would never see wilf distortion of reality to define their narrative in a really this way, and it happens so often now that people get called my favorite is all right adjacent. I don't know that mean it. Doesn't they don't know what it means is nothing new thing. It's a new thing people trying out to try it out of my go as a it's. It's again trying to lump everybody into one group for purposes of castigating the motives yeah, so you don't have to have an argument with somebody if you assume they're not see so I guess, if you call everybody not so you don't have to have an argument, it is goofy, but you know I think,
when it comes to the the gay marriage thing. Would people really worry about? Is other people trying to stop people from doing what they want to do? You don't have that in you, that's not you. What you are doing is opposing it from your your religious beliefs, right like it. If you want to join into my shoulder actual, has religious beliefs right, that's their business. By the way there like I can join a church. I assume I don't believe the things that people in the church believe you probably could. If you donate, you got to give the right of money. Well, I don't believe in the Jesus, so there's that there's a jesus- that's not my thing right, so that's I I wouldn't expect to walk into a mosque, expect them to change their their standards on religion. I I find it really audacious when people actually expect other people to view the world the same way that they do and then expect that they're gonna be catered to in that play like I wouldn't walk into, I wouldn't walk into a gay owned bakery and expect them to bake a cake that has versus
it gets on it. But I do worry is a weird story. You know that bake a cake store because gets bandied about date. Those folks went to several Baker's until someone said no, this is correct yeah. They were looking for a court case and honestly, like that's, not you being a civil rights here that you being a jackass seriously like go to the other. Bakery will do to you. They don't have anything to do with you. They don't owe you their cake and if you want to boycott them, boycott them right. You want to get all your friends to say: we're not gonna go buy a cake from these discriminatory humans. Fine, it's a free market, have at it, but this this notion that somebody owes you their service. Is that that to me it's not even a freedom of religion case to me that one's a freedom of association case well, I think, with the goal, is to shame a business into Sub Ishan and also to put it out there in the public eye, so that people understand that this is a discrimination that does happen with gay folks will they will go somewhere and someone won't make cake form right, so I think they wanted to highlight it. So if I was being very charitable- and I didn't think they would
attention whores, I would say- maybe that's they're doing maybe they're just trying to highlight this very real problem- fine, but they actually like took it to the government. Once you start pointing government gonna people, I get real uptight, so yeah, it's a weird one. If you were, if you were just you, do yeah right exactly review it right talk about how much you don't like them find you know like. I may disagree with you or I may agree with you whatever. That's that's fine, but once you start going to the government having the government levy like one hundred thousand dollars, fines on family bakeries because they because you couldn't find a gay baker in Colorado supposedly like um. No I'm sorry, that's that's not cool and I feel the same way if I walk into a bakery they're like you're, jewish, we're not serving you I'd, be like okay, you're, a hole, but all right I mean it's a free country and there's a bakery across the street or maybe I'll just open a bakery next sortie and take all your business yeah. Well, it's unfortunate that anyone would ever think like that,
but should be a law to force someone to think differently. You can't it doesn't work. This is this is my point. Is people point to my religious beliefs in Whittier Theocrat and I keep coming back to I'm, not though, like I don't want to force my beliefs, anybody remember just have those. Those are my belief. So leave me alone and those are your beliefs, so leave you alone, and if we can have a system where we acknowledge that those beliefs can coexist and we can solve conversations with each other or be friends is going to be really hard to have a society. When you told Dave Rubin that you wouldn't go to his wedding, did you get butt hurt, no pun intended now? He wasn't upset about it now, because, because dave- and I were friends- he knows that I have no anger or upset about him doing. I would want everyone, FUCK Ben, come on man, I don't know, I'm not a friends person, so I don't have any friends I mean I have friends, but it's like very s, friends and then acquaintances. I tend to keep a pretty close social circle, the smart, the of so much time in this life that that's pretty much. How I feel yeah like if you're the kind of person where, if you
like a true obligation for me, to drive you to the airport, not a thing now, I'm not driving there. You are a dinner correct the people who make money off of you driving to the airport in turns into that. This is exactly correct, that those people, but that I kind of went away for the most part. So if you find someone who still asking for a ride to the airport, that's a greedy mother at this point really bad. You know it wasn't the right books on that over. Yes, your wife for your girlfriend, you want to talk to you when you drop out of the airport is totally cool right. Well, that's understandable! This is it what? But that's what I mean by my circle of friends, just like somebody where I'm in the car with them for half an hour. It doesn't like an obligation. Conversation, that's fine, but I value community and I value a value people talking and trying to understand each other, and I I've seen so much conflict. It's unnecessary because I see so much conflict, that's rooted in people, not communicating and instead of
indicating- and I think this is one of the things that I'm most nervous about with all this d platform, meaning and censoring people and the silencing of people on the right- and it's not that I agree with these people. It's I see how this is just going to shore up these two sides and it's going to make it much more difficult, much more difficult atmosphere for communication, for real understanding and coming to agreements on things and and recognizing things that we all all good people seem to agree. Could you try to help each other should be kind to each other? You should work hard. You should have good morals and ethics. You shouldn't steal shouldn't take from people shouldn't lie. You shouldn't try to cheat the government. You shouldn't try to cheat people just be a good fucking person that this this transcends religion, ideologies, it transcends political leanings. It really does it should and we can have a truly diverse community, truly diverse, not forced diversity, diverse
meaning some people are progressive. Some people are conservative. Some people are libertarian, you can joke with each other. We all get along together and disagree with things just not be fucking hateful towards each other. This is possible, but it becomes less possible when p, I feel like they're being silenced or censored totally right, and it's also true that when you, when you castigate, somebody is morally on what you're really doing is you're giving excuse to get into their yeah. It's like this is what what's really happening here like if I had a slogan beyond the fact, don't care about your feelings, stuff, it just leave me alone. You know I don't get in my shit like I'm, not bothering you. So why are you bothering me and if I have a belief system, that's different than yours, then so the well? What as long as I'm, not bothering you, what difference? Does it make to you? How I feel about things? The only thing about the gay thing is that it's not you. You have a belief about things, that's not you, but I have lots of beliefs about things that are not make right, but there are people that aren't hurting each other, but it's so what I mean. I can believe that people who aren't hurting each other, like I'm, not a fan of prostitution,.
Like a cell, I am not a fan of people here. Some some prostitution is clearly more of a choice. Then I think gay people are okay, but I'm I'm right, but I know you're coming back on a moral distinction which I've ever paid a few times right that I'm not a believer that a natural desire to do. Something therefore makes an activity. Okay, but that's it, but that's a few that has no externalities my view has no externality. So in the same way, listen I beliefs about people who eat too much and ghetto because they eat too much. I think it's dancing to do. I don't think it's my business. You want to do it. Your problem, like you, you want F up your life. That's what freedom is called. There isn't one of the seven deadly sins, gluttony, again question but yeah I think, but it's it. But yes, I mean- and I have I have lots of police about lots of things that people do and by the way. So do you think they don't affect you right now. This is we all do, but as long as I'm not forcing that on you, because there not reality, is your behavior, I don't see why it bothers you like they're, legitimately
assume 10s of millions of people in this country who believe that when I die, I will go to hell right. I don't, I don't believe in Jesus and so they're like people believe I don't believe in Jesus. Therefore I am bound for Hell. That does not bother me one iota, because no one bothering me so what do I care? I don't understand why everyone doesn't take this view. If I'm not legitimately, bothering you. Why should? Why? Should you care? What I think like this is. This is what would be puzzling me if somebody came to me and they wanted my opinion on something because they valued my opinion that much I'd give my opinion, but you don't have to care about my opinion. I think when it comes to the gate thing where people are looking for is to people for other folks to be accepting of who they are, and I think for a lot of these gay folks that have been the closet, their whole life. That's the big things there always worried about someone treating them differently or someone diminishing them, because they're gay then, when they hear someone like you say that you think it's a sin and that you shouldn't act
in your biology, even though you have these urges that you should instead find a woman, they feel the same pangs of rejection. I get of that debt, I for sure get that, but the the confluence between activity and identity is actually kind of a dangerous one meeting. Then the you know the the idea that if I disapprove an activity in which you engage, they disapprove of you right. I disapprove of lots of activities that in which lots of people engage, including most members of my family, including my children, a lot of the time I mean I disapprove of them as a human being or that I'm dancing their lesson as a human being that, like we all interact with people this way, like you disapprove of my view on this, I don't get the feeling you disapprove of me, a human being. No, I don't, and I am just a religion. You obviously think my religion is bullshit, but that's okay. I don't care, that's why I was, I don't think it's bullshit, I wouldn't say I think it's both waiting. You think, though I got spoke to somebody in the mountains bullshit right. Well, I don't even know if that's bullshit.
What I do know is that it's a historical interpretation of stories that were as much as they could or as little as they wanted to be accurately defined and written down, then passed on from generation to generation with different example. You think the fact that I won't eat pork is kind of stupid bullshit. I don't think it's stupid bullshit. First of all, I think pigs are intelligent. I wish they were at wild. I have a deep affinity to pigs are really example here, one of them, but also kill them. When I eat the right yeah I mean I kill while pig. Let me be broader about this you're, not orthodox Jews. I see other things about the thing yeah well I, but I there's certain things of which I believe or practice that you that you probably disapprove or you you don't think they're the smartest there either that there might not think is the smartest, but as I've gotten older and hopefully wiser, I give a fuck less about why you do what you do, but whether or not the benefits seem to be worth.
The juice is worth the squeeze and in New York case, I think to juice is worth the squeeze. I think you're, a very successful person, you're very reasonable you telogen or an outstanding debater, and I enjoyed talking to and listening to you on. You too. I think part of that is because of the fact that your religion, right above you, you really, I think, it's cross training. I think in a lot of ways it's like, if you lift weights for Ju Jitsu, makes you stronger it'll make you it better. As long as you keep training, I think your discipline from your religion has there's psychological benefit to it. Rare settling benefits to it. There's it's a really really get all that. I guess the point. The point is that we're different people, so yeah they're certain activity in which I engage the you probably think. Well, that's I would do that scan down yeah, I know. Okay, I don't I wouldn't it though I will I will I would, but I wouldn't I wouldn't I don't want to do it. I want to wear a yamaka, but I get it under.
It was hard to keep it on your head and you just blew it. What what it bald dudes do they put a piece of double stick tape: they're not now, but you're not allowed to know you. Can you totally can be painful and uncomfortable yeah um going is that in living in a society we all are constantly disapproving of each other right? Yes, this is just a disapproving of each other, all the time and so long as not forcing that on anybody else. I really don't see the problem and I think everybody should sort of get over it like. If I don't approve of your personal behavior welcome to the club, I disapprove of ninety nine percent of people's personal behavior, including my own half the. Do you how? How often do you debate people on the merits of religion or demerits of your belief system? You know not not super Frickley, but not infrequently. I mean, like I mentioned, that I've I've had this conversation with him. A couple of different: do you, like he's so rabbit as an atheist, but yet you guys he's more religious SAM is more religious than I am SAM. Sam is more of a religious atheist and I'm, like I'll admit, questions about my own religion. Sam is very, very convinced of his correctness and his viewpoint sounds religious dude he's a fast,
thank God. He is. I I like him a lot and I and two and Michael Shermer. I've had, on my show, to talk about really and skepticism and yeah, and all that I'm not shy about talking about it. I just that. Sometimes I find that it's it's kind of a dead end, because sometimes it just turns into I believe in God, and then the person like, I don't believe in God, and it's like well, okay, fine, now now can we talk about the stuff. We think are the one of the fundamental building blocks upon which you can base a society or basic politics. If we agree on it, then you know the God stuff. I think God is a better base for those fundamental policies and Ben and belief systems. I think free speech individualism democracy. These are based on a simple verse in Genesis that human beings are made in God's image. I'm I think that that's a logical leap. This is the case have made it to SAM. I I don't think you can actually get to human beings are oven, estable, inestimable value from scientific materialism. If you believe that human beings are effectively just animals that I don't know why they would be of infinite value, nor why should respect Sumbu belief system simply because they're human respect
and for just another animal I I there's no, there's nothing that says it takes that logical, one of the, in fact most of human history. It was not the logical line of thinking it was, if you're a member of my tribe, then we like you if you're, not a member of my tribe, that we get to kill, but is that a lot a logical comparison like it is? Isn't there a difference between single celled organisms and the way a primate interacts with its environment? Any yes, but I'm not sure why that would indicate any sort of greater existential value. It's not necessarily a greater existential value, but as we were talking about the value of community and the value of having a group of people you care about this is this: is a core component of be being human. This is a it's a core component of this understanding mind, but that's that's it rational, intelligent interface sing with the universe. In a way that no other animals capable of I'm not saying you can't get to the point where SAM agrees with me, I'm saying that I think it's less convincing and him thinks it is meaning. There's not there's an alternate line of thought that says: okay, you're, right, social fabric is great. You know, the touch
fabric is particularly awesome among me, and my friends know. Aren't that great, though guys over there, let's go, kill him and take their shit like that was pretty much humanity work very very long time and the simple and effective idea that the reason that human beings are value is because we are more than just our material bodies and there's something that is us. That is of inestimable value. That's a religious can't and it has a lot of weight now, if SAM once you get to the same place and we can build a political conversation, that's fine!
My real ardently SAM is SAM and I go down to the bottom of the iceberg about ninety percent of the way we have the same comments about free speech, diversity of opinion about, I think, to speech mostly an extent free markets. I- and I think that we we agree on a lot of these fundamental principles. He then says that he gets those from your reason. I have serious questions about whether pure reason, this acetates, those conclusions. He tends to think that those are the only conclusion to reasonable person could come to. If you properly apply a reason. I don't think that's right. What do you think is happening there? What's the matter, I think the mechanism is that we are calm and, and what I said to SAM and when we were debating this in San Francisco, is it's real weird he's materialistic scientific materialist atheist? Who is sitting across the stage from me, a religious Jew? We agree on ninety five percent of our values. So how and his answer was well, you know here's where I've studied. I study Buddhism. I've studied these philosophes and I've studied science and also is it.
I haven't studied a lot of those things, but we have the same value so why it seems to me a better historical explanation is that we have brought. We grew up ten miles from each other, in LOS Angeles, after three thousand years of common history of judeo christian development battles with reason in the West, like location, has something to do with us, and that location was rooted in commonality of interest and and philosophy. So I I'm less it's it's there's a we're nexus and I don't get to kind of deep in the winter there's a weird kind of nexus on what truth is
where you've heard SAM and Jordan Peterson Debate, this don was saying it was its wild and the truth is I'm closer to SAM than Jordan on this, I'm closer to Jordan and sand when it comes to the value of religion and I'm closer to SAM than Jordan when it comes to objective truth, SAM believes that there is such a thing as objective truth. Jordan tends to be more of a pragmatist. He tends to believe that truth is sort of what is useful to a certain extent, and my I grew with SAM, but I'm not sure how he gets to objective truth from a scientific materialist world view. Why is there
objective truth as opposed to what you think is what you think being evolutionarily beneficial? How do you get from that to it's a universal principle that is objectively true, it's it's it's a bit of a jump well depends on what the concept is right like what are you talking about in terms of talking the truth, I'm talking about anything that SAM says is true. What makes it true, as opposed to just evolutionarily beneficial for us to think so, meaning what evolution does is it creates a series of thoughts in our mind, presumably if you're materialist that are beneficial to your preservation and promulgation of the species? They're, not active, actually true. So if it's beneficial, this is SAM's explanation for the prevalence of religion, for example, say: religions in true, but evolutionary biology, sort of drives people toward religion. So you can have group bonds that are beyond one hundred and fifty people or so why doesn't apply to math the two into? How do you know that too, into actually equals? Four, as oppose
is evolutionary been evolutionarily beneficial for you to believe that two plus two equals four, so SAM believes there's an objective truth somewhere out there, the two plus two equals four. I don't know what evolution has to do with that sort of stuff. So what do you think is happening that he disagrees with so that I think that what is happening is that human beings were placed in an orderly universe through the process, he's a biology and have a unique capacity to understand that universe, because we are made in the image of God. This is where I think that the religious viewpoint, however, just pretty strongly from from SAM's, but usually evil in evolution. Yes, you believe that evolution was a process that was co created by God to formulate human beings. Yes, interesting yeah I mean that's, that's the nice thing about being religious. You can attribute most most everything to well. Here's the thing: it's not that implausible.
If there was some sort of a grand plan, there would be no regard for like a hobo gotta get a rush on this making. The evolutionary being you know we're going to you know, there's also read: the process is also to fine tuning arguments about how implausible would be for just Adams roaming around the universe randomly to and with with human creation. No and then the alternate explanation see no, no more and no less implausible domain like they need multiple, universes, very plausible, but we have no way to prove it 'cause we can't get to those multiple universes. So how is that testable or the now popular theory that we're living in a simulation, not sure how that's more testable than God, not sure how more testable aliens put us here like? How is any of this? Why is that more testable or more plausible than the idea that there is a force behind that which we see that has mind? Well, let's, let's just break this down so
Ali there's, obviously something that's happening, there's obviously something that went from the big Bang to planet earth. In two thousand and nineteen, with cellular communication and satellite dishes and obvious something happened, something pretty radical. Why it happening? Is it happening because of random events, that sort of coincide with Bio LG and the technology? And all these things come to fruition to you and I standing across from each other talking on this podcast in front of millions of people or is this? Is this just how things go? Is things compete constantly, try to get better and then, in this gigantic ecosystem of all these things competing and trying to get better one super successful organism us rises above and continues right and continues in by far passes all these other creatures below it and moves we.
In our estimation, I mean, if you really leaving evolution, you can't think we're done right. It's got to be moving towards some better product that keeps going until it creates. So this is why I said SAM is more religious than I am. I think that there's a plausible argument for atheism. I just don't think that there is a plausible argument for SAM's moral vision of atheism, meaning that what what but SAM tends to do is it like, for example, you and I've talked a lot on on this particular podcast about the value of self betterment and making decisions and being responsible for those decisions. How does that work in an area we don't have free will so SAM actively says we do not have free well, yeah, that's a weird conversation is, it is a weird conversation in sort of a self defeating one SAM suggests when it comes to the scientific method that we're using science to find out truths about the universe and we're using reason seems very big on reason. I also, and they got a reason, but I don't know what how SAM is defining reason, as opposed to just eight evolutionarily beneficial firing of neurons, meaning that.
That's what we are right, where balls meat laundering purposeless through the universe and then he'll talk about making our own meaning or seeking human, human prosperity or and flourishing, is excuse. These are all very active verbs for it is it is it? Is it an activation of man in the universe, Brian and I'm not sure how that flows from were appalled me to fall from another ball of meat that evolved eventually, if you go back far enough from non balls of mate without any without any free will without any capacity to choose, I don't I don't know he built a civilization on that with two different conversations here, one is determination or determinism, rather, whether or not you have free will or whether or not your life and your actions are being do stated by the past by your biology by your learned experiences by external pressures. What is causing this very clear decision that you make is this: we will. Are you deciding to get my shit together or all the factors are
and you pushing you and funneling you into this, this direction that you it's unavoidable right and that you are not a product of free will you're just a product of a lot of different factors right or is it both? Is it that you are the product of your environment in your life experiences, and you also have free will right and I'm I'm in the latter group, I'm in the latter group I think as well. I think we also experience great benefit from making positive choices and then experiencing like whenever you meet someone who's lost a lot of weight want one things: they have this fucking tremendous feeling of accomplishment yeah. I lost one hundred like holy shit man, one hundred right like they get this positive feedback from it. There's there's real good and making good choices, and when people decide to get their shit together and make a good choice there were awarded. The question is: are you doing that because of determining? Are you doing that because of free will or are you doing that
because of a combination of both of those things, and can you fuel that free will purposely threw like outwardly seek seeing things that are motivational or things that are educational things that allow you to kind of re map? The way you process reality right, which can be extremely beneficial and can aid in you taking steps towards exercising your free will right, love it and that this is why I think that in the end it and it right, but that that is pretty fundamental question, and I think that that's why in the end, I'm religious and I'm not why SAM isn't, because he agrees with the same premise- is right: he'll he'll talk about so betterment of decisions that you can make and then he'll write a full book about why free will doesn't exist, and I just don't understand how those two things can co exist. Yes, it's ah! Well, I think it's a thought experiment. First of all, I think the hold permanent thing is a thought experiment, because there's really no way to determine right, like you and actually the artist, though for sure right I mean like there's just no way to act otherwise,
but I I guess it is absolutely act as if I have free will and we all do. I get angry at me self. When I fucked things up, I don't say well, it's just determine is a man. I know that doesn't get you in and the, but maybe it's determinism that has put me in this position, where I'm the kind of guy that gets upset. If I fucked things up right. No, I don't know man, I don't know, but I don't know you if you know either that's my my take on all these things with people get really rigid with their ideologies. Yeah like okay. I want to hear it out. I want to hear the whole thing you know in here at all. I'm not sure. If you know I think, there's a adding there's. No, I think, there's a lot that I don't know, but I know it. There's more plausible must plausible. I agree. This is where I think people misunderstand you. You have your beliefs but you're, not a guy that imposes them on people and I think we need to be way more reasonable in terms of the way we address people's beliefs and
I'm guilty of this in the past. I'm sure many people listen, you have everyone has, but I think it's a core component to a healthy community is to allow people to have their own belief, and you know who knows man, maybe your beliefs on gay people will adjust and move over time as you get older and move into a gay neighborhood, and I don't I get. Is that it it looked. It is not it's not about tolerance. I understand, I know a lot of different things. Yeah I mean, I don't know yeah it's it's it's it's a difference between understanding people are as as whole people and then saying that I don't like some of the things that they do and simply saying that making the assumption that, because I don't like some of the things that you do, we can't be friends or I disapprove of you is an entire human being, which I think is not true. It's a good belief system to have. If you straight and then you go look lock down, don't need to worry about that. I got a, but if you were gay God not to be a pain yeah, absolutely I mean it would be annoying. You just always wanted to bang dudes and everyone saying no
yeah. I know not to do it. Nobody said, religions, easy man, it's a ha. What's the value, though, if you're, if you're, a giant homo all you want to do, is go to gay discos and party, your ass off, that's what you enjoy some people like golf, okay, some people, some people like parasailing, some dude just want to. I can get it on man. You want to dress up like the village people and go have a fucking party. That's why Santa Monica Boulevard such a hot spot and they find each other you know, do whatever you want to do. Do whatever you want to do men, don't don't ask me to think that don't ask me to like put my stamp of moral approval on to send the do you want to do it like it's free country? This is a. This is, should be a free country, not just it is a free country. It should be a free country. It should not be my job to police, your personal behavior right right right, like you, doesn't mean I have to approve it on a personal level, but
I'm a jerk. If I want to impose my belief system on your personal behavior that effects no one else, I mean the definition of you and I'm a hypocrite. If I continue to braid you about your opinion on gay folks, what do I give a fuck with Europe correct? Because you are a reasonable person and you do your very polite and if you're in friends with Dave Rubin, so there you go, there's got to be something there. It's it's a strange thing, though this this need that people have for everyone to think the way they think, and I understand the need to reinforce your own thoughts and and and and and argue them and. Try to figure out a way to debate that the other person's perspective is in correcting your perspective is correct. I understand all these inclinations of people have but are. Are you? I think that they conflate that with bigotry right now, and I don't exactly, I don't think you're a bigot.
I don't agree with you about gay folks, but that's one of the for you, the marijuana things as I just don't think you have any experience in it right and as far as the as far as disturbing I, I think that we probably don't disagree on I'm gay folks. I think we disagree on identity in gas yeah. You know the rest of it. I mean as human beings yeah. These are human beings that I I know many gay people who I think are significantly better human beings and religious people that I know now they're out. I'm glad you said that yeah, I think, come. If there's a way, I don't have a defined religion, but in a way I have some pretty rigid ideas that I have in my head about behavior and ethics and morals and how you treat people you care about. Those are those are like the pretty rigid and I think the things that religion does is it allows
cause you to have this sort of ethical framework sort of like you. What what is it called scaffolding you feel like it allows you to develop a more disciplined life and it just shows you. This is good in this is bad and it's clear and there's this most important in the for the most part, it's good for the most part at these are these are good patterns to follow, and I think that most certainly sort of adopted my own somewhere along the line. I think we all do. Yeah, I mean honestly value system. Affectively is usually a form of religion when you're saying that SAM is religious, he's a religion, the a vs you're, not selling system, yeah, you're, not being an accurate there's. A lot of folks do that we we do develop the sort of symbols that we were not just free, Willy nilly just do whatever we want all day long. No one does that
the reason I say it is sort of facetiously, but I think that we all make fundamental assumptions about the nature of human life and we have to recognize that those air assumptions you can't it's. It's not reason all the way down. You know that, because that tends to actual become even more inflexible than its I'm, the only reasonable person in the room. My reasons are the only ones that matter. So it's my reasons all the way down acknowledge that we're all making some assumptions, and then we can discuss whether those assumption it's worthwhile or not yeah the thing that, when it comes with religion in defining whether or not other people's behavior sinful, where it doesn't involve you that it's where a lot of folks start thinking that maybe these ideas are bigoted right, but it does involve me, meaning that well, I'm then join everything that I say is a sin is ascendant in joins me. It's just that. I may not have a desire for that particular sin. Did meeting I'm not I'm not holding people to a different standard that I hold myself? Nor am I saying that I never said right, but you know that you have different biological desires and they do kind of acknowledge that right. Of course. That's true, of course, that's true by
token. I assume that a gay guy doesn't have the desire to stop one thousand women which most straight guys d'oh Nia. Why do you think if, if God has a plan, why do you think you could create gay people? I mean, I think that God creates. First of all, I don't think that I'm in a position to evaluate gods plan, but it works if you like, if I, if I had to guess God created people with all sorts of different challenges and those challenges span the spectrum- I'm not so God sneaks it up on you, hey man. I know this is going to be fucked up, but just like dudes like forget about women you're going to like do. I am not. I want you to ignore that which I listen to my old book. I don't know I don't gives people God gives. I don't know I got, gives kids can, sir? I don't know a lot of things about God wish I did, would make my life a lot easier, so you that that is a challenge a can
to any other challenge that a human being my face in this life that the challenge of but a lot harder, yeah a and a lot more difficult and a lot more straining in a lot. Yeah, of course, do you think there's value in following that challenge and not acting on gay urges, I think they're I think they're candy and having sex the wound plug your nose, grew and make face because you discuss, did you create it? Did you create a baby out of that? Did that, but is that baby like a part of your life? Now the this is that is deep and meaningful. Maybe what about that and passed a lot of gay guys having kids? What about people saying living their truth? I'm living my truth, bench Pero I mean, as a general rule living. My truth is a bunch of crap, like there's, there's living your opinion, which is fine. Like love your opinion, how you want again that gets back to do what you want as long as it's not bothering me living. My truth is a different thing. That's one of them social media creations like living. My truth is such that bullshit, I'm sorry with everything matrices bullshit like there's. No such thing as your truth. There is the truth. Then there is your opinion and we do have for purposes of conversation. At the very least, it's deeply irritating when
say living my truth, because then it's like, I disagree with you and then like well, your your disavow point is a human being. No, I just disagree like you can be you you can do it. You want you do whatever man can't calm down like I'm, how did I become the most Loosey goosey, libertarian Lean back guy in the world in the city, Heidi? How is this possible most uptight person? I know how is this a thing? Well, you know. Well, as I do that the further you go left you you, you reach the same sort of zealotry that you do when you go all the way. Rice is correct. You meet these crazy people that are just completely connected to their idea of being correct and they take the most rigid dance on all these issues, on the left side or on the right side, and it's so God, damn common human behavior. It's also it's it's a it's also, incredibly boring yeah. I mean that there's nothing to discuss with with yeah. I agree
me and that's one of the reasons why it's so disgusting when people miss label people like there was an article that connected me with Richard Spencer, like what in the fuck like that, is such a such a disingenuous thing to do yeah. They know what they're doing they're the trying to get me to react to it. Talk about it and get more to collect hot yeah yeah. It's it puts horse yeah like anybody, but if you are locked into that far left ideology as far left as you can go, and it's one of the problems with ideologies that have these extremists is that you believe in a percentage of the things these people say, but then they go way too far with it, but you're connected with them. Your
active with them, because you're part of that, even though you don't have a similar notion, Steven Pinker got brow beaten over suggesting that failure to ask questions and give plausible answers gives excuse me credence to the all right that that, if you do a is so, he did a whole speech where he said. Listen there lots of conversations about I q and race, and they all right, loves these conversations, because then they did, they suggest wrongly. The black people are inherently unfit and white people are more fit and all that kind of stuff- and he says there are great ways to explain how much my cue is- is cultural. How much can be changed? How much is genetic? How much that actually matters in terms of real life outcomes? We can do all those things, but when you say don't ask the question, stop asking the question, then you make people, Google and the only thing that they will google and find our answers that are given by people who are actually all right right. He got ripped as all right for this yes argument was: don't allow people to push into all right answers by failing to give them proper response
is or by throwing him out the window, and then people like well you're all right now, because you're saying that people should be able to questions like it's almost like it's just like it's the exact same version as people in the religious community, where it's like. You know I used to go to Sunday School and then I asked him any questions and they kicked me out right. That's that's not how religion supposed toe! That's, not how that's not how reason is supposed to work? That's not how any of this is supposed to work right and there's also when, when you're investigating anything any measurable thing, when you find a number whatever it is like these, people, like asian folks, are better at mathematics. European folks are better at this, like what is it? What's the reason for that? What, let's, let's find out, is it cultural? Is it biologicals it's something: can we learn about how human beings evolved and adapted? Why nigerian so smart, there's so many Nigerians to come to this country? They thrive, they thrive in business, they're, extremely motivated there
extremely disciplined. It's like a it's like almost like korean folk. Why the Koreans like? Why are they so hard work? Why the they in? Obviously these are big generalizations, but what is it about it? What what what makes him wear gold saints and love mafia movies like what is it? Those are my people. We go with the flow. What the why they all talk like that like? What is that? What causes any sort of ethnic group to turn out the way they turned out? What why are so many european Jews, Nobel Prize winners, right what the fuck is going on over there and also like what is the impact of the measure all on how we live our lives? How much of this stuff matter is this? Is this a result of discrimination, or is this a result of something else? Is it true that, when you group any group well together, racially are non racially? There will be disparities between those two groups of people. This is just true statistically like, but not asking those questions and then shut down the questions. What that actually does it leads people to only get the answers to the questions from the people who don't know what they're talking about in many cases and who are giving
need easy and self flattering answers about the nature of themselves. The fear is it being used by racist to reinforce their positions, but what you find out is that the your race right, superior race and they'll do that anyway, like one of the one of the funniest things about. What's the premises is they're so fucking stupid, imparting the language like the white supremacists are invariably not the Nobel Prize winners, hey it's it's! It go a white supremacist compound you're, not looking at a bunch of people who are curing cancer and these people pissed. He often- and this is now I'll say all that won't media label me all tomorrow, yeah, it's goes well the distance, tenuous media, that's being less and less taken seriously taken less less seriously. It's. It seems to me that that trend, which is a common trend- that's existed for the last few years of these click, Beatty Bullshit Articles and MIS labeling people. It's going to go away because your your your perspective is not going to be appreciated. It's not going to be respected if you, if you're, obviously making disingenuous statement
like that, and I think I'm were in this weird position, where it's very difficult to find real journalism and real objective takes on things that aren't flavored by their ideology and everybody's trying to shape everybody, and they feel like it's our obligation. They feel as many people that write things that feel like it's their obligation to change your perspective on national subjects, and things of that are important to us that she is not their obligation. Just report what's going on, but also their Abu should flavor things in a way that will make one side look favorable to the other yeah. Well, I'm very much in favor of journalists revealing their biases. I think that the greatest line media is that objective journalism is a thing. Journalism is a thing, so I'm conservative, my only you'll, get a conservative get on the news. That's the way it's what's gonna work and guess what CNN's, liberal and they're going to give you the it's been on the news and that's just the way this is going to work. Did you see the video when the Mueller report came out? They look like so many are killed. All my god. This is crazy.
It is that it can be happy exit. Should you be happy if you guys believed in Miller, everybody was like Mueller. Is the fuckin man he's going to go get trump? This guy is methodical, he's precise, keep trying to find it out and everything votive candles with his face on the good like bird, they were parked yeah and then it came out. It was like well, no collusion of is like well. I guess that now to cover up, if they they have my what wait a minute yeah, maybe maybe the narrative has maybe the narrative has- has trumped the actual job. You were supposed to do guys. Well, it's just so many people were so convinced and there were so many people that were making statements that, in retrospect are probably like. You could probably. I mean I want to say, I'm not a litigious person, but if I was a guy like Donald Trump, oh man,
yeah, there's so many people to sue is it it was. It was amazing. I mean I remember, I was on Bill Maher's show and we were supposed to talk about free speech stuff and like five minutes before he's like let's talk about Russia's producer came and let's talk about Russia, and I was like ok fine, so we get on producers yeah. This is like right where they switch off. Your tv shows with just tell you what you have to talk, and now it's a guy comes in with a clipboard yeah. They it was. It was a little bit is a little bit strange and we got on stage and he's talking about Trump. Russia collusion, and I said what I've always said, which is I'll wait for the evidence to come out, and then I will make a decision as to whether Trump Russia collusion was a thing and bill more radical. I am and Bill Marr goes you don't you don't believe it was a thing now that? Well, I don't see any evidence yet that it was a thing like. I see some evidence of attempts to collude. Like John Junior, I see some attempts of people trying to get information. I don't see evidence of like actual legal collusion and why don't we just wait like you guys, keep wanting Miller to gives it like? Let's just wait on it
and Mark could not believe that this was my perspective right. It was like it was like shocking to him. Why should? Why? Should the perspective, I'm waiting for more evidence be shocking to anyone when it is obvious, the evidence is not out why. Why is that in any way? Controversial? It's it's bewildering to me! Well, it's because people have this need to. Let everyone know that they're on the right side and they want you to know that they do, but even the collusion, if you disagree with that, for whatever reason you must either be a right wing person, a Trump supporter someone's it who's in the Nile, someone doesn't look at the evidence and you're part of the problem yeah, but the the real problem was jumping to conclusions they're. Obviously seemed to be some attempts, there's there's, obviously some factory with that. I are a company that did the the internet research agency, that is responsible for the millions of interactions with people online, with a pretended to be right. Different
supporters roles caused conflict like constant conflict in regards to political opinion, and that's all real that was coordinated effort to try to change people's opinions, but how much that had to do with Donald Trump? How much the ask for Christmas? Is you got no evidence? Also? I was always bewildered by this theory. Like did you watch that campaign? That was not the well coordinated campaign. It was chaos. It was chaos I mean I knew everybody who's in the campaign like it was a. It was a shit, show the idea that they're sitting there but there, but when the mask comes off at night, the code letter Putin they put together a point by point plan on how they're going to swing in this particular precinct in rural wish it in rural miss again what what are you? Are you get high like what were you talking about like what like, if you contribute this uses anything here? Here's a good rule of thumb for politics, everything to stupidity, unless you can prove malice the real problem- and this is something that is very similar to what we were talking about earlier.
When you say something, and you say it over and over and over again- and you say it with such conviction and it becomes a giant part of your news narrative and then that something turns out to be horse. Yeah you just massively empower trump. That's that's exactly right for a long time that I'm not a big fan of Trump's fake news. Stick because I think he applies it to broadly. I think that whenever there's a bad piece news like fake news and it's like well- sometimes yes, and sometimes no, but now that you just blew a two year narrative where he was clearly in Putin's pocket. How many people, you think, will listen to the nuanced view of fake news now and how many people do you think are going to actually believe from when he says that a bad piece of news is legitimately a fake piece of news yeah and empowers him in a in a spectacular manner. They made a giant mistake, oh yeah, and they blew that they blew this one in spectacular fashion and people are still hanging in there. Well, they had to do. This is true for so many people right now. All you have to do is not be crazy, just stop it. It was talking about the possibile.
The trump has been a russian assets since, like nineteen eighty seven or so I mean it was so it was that I mean Andrew Mccabe. The former FBI director was asked whether Trump was legitimately russian asset he's, like I don't know, it's like you're, using the power of the institution used to run to spread this nonsense and Iggy. You got that from John Brennan. He got it from James Clapper. These are all former heads of the intelligence. Agencies just makes me think. The intelligence agencies need to be while the car jack- if these were the heads of them, I mean, like the heads of the intelligence agencies, are using their platform to proclaim that they have inside information about Trump. That turns out to be utter nonsense. I'm not sure these people should have that much power to like. Is that what he's saying or is he saying he doesn't know? He didn't say I no, he was saying like I have. Basically, I expect that Miller is going to indict, as a former tells relational expect it the there's a lot of that it was ugly Adam. I mean how committee doing the same thing. It's crazy now, 'cause like what do they do now like? How do they rebound from this? If this is something you would just say once this is something you said for two years: you've seen
the compilation, video yeah, there's always that they've done him to rap music, so they like they put a beat behind it. If you seen it now, I know there's some great ones. Some great company, these compilations of people, saying possible collusion. This book collusion pop yeah yeah in this music that goes with it, and I just cut to possible collusion with the Russians possible. Russian collusion yeah possible russian collusion. It's yet they they they blew in a major way. Yeah I mean is punisher to complain about. You didn't have to go with that. Like it, a idea was that he was a trade target, rich environment and you decided to go to he's a russian traitor like it's no way out or something and he's Kevin Costner's class in like what what in the way he could have ever beaten. Hillary. Sorry, I'm going to check my wife to get outta here. Man. I do a little bit when you have to leave right now, like I wanted to ask you one more question, see one more question: what do you think about this Chelsea Manning situation? 'cause? I don't know exact exactly what happened other than she's in contempt of court and so
they've got in solitary confinement. Now this is about testifying yeah. I have too many I'll be honest. I'm calling it that closely. I mean my my understanding is that Chelsea Manning who, okay, so here's our get cut your caller Bradley, no hm? He changed his name to Chelsea. He is a biological male leave your nice tendering. Are you dead, naming as well? Don't know? No! I don't! I don't get it unless we're talking about when he committed his crime, to which point actually Bradley is close right here right so for talking about convicted, and that was a male name, Bradley Manning you say they are not the formerly known as Bradley it if we're talking about he
being who's currently in jail. That is a male who is currently known as Chelsea S O s. Oh, my understanding is that is that Chelsea Manning is a refused to hand over information that he was legally bound to hand over about Wikileaks on now. There were complaints it is being held in solitary, but that's not true, apparently, and that he's being mistreated. I do find it weird that the same people who are complaining about Donald Trump coordinating with Wikileaks are very upset about Chelsea Manning going to jail for coordinates of Wikileaks. You're gonna need to pick one or the other is Wikileaks. Batteries wiki leaks, not bad. What is wikileaks? It's on Lee dependent upon whether or not they're supporting the narrative that you want. That's exactly right and you stayed in the last few weeks was very good. Remember exactly was right and left by the way like they're people on the right words like Julius Julian Assange's, the worst and then two thousand, and sixteen happened like Julian Assange and now there's a person. I can really talk to
now. I'm pretty sure Julian Assange. Jj is ah a Wikileaks. Good information suggests they are russian front group and take make of that. What you will end of story. Do you think that they became a russian front group to try to stay operative and stay safe, because they were obviously be attacked by the United States government and in danger being shut down and then they've? I really don't know enough about Wikileaks. T really get into it. I don't know historical, but I, but I know that he's been trapped in that embassy for thousand and twelve yeah twelve yeah. I mean I hope that he's got some video games or there in there. Man he's been in there for like seven year now, right to one side of that is a long time it can't go outside. I had no sunlight PAMELA visits every now and then he's fucked. I mean it's, it's a terrible place to be, and I don't know if it's better than prison, because it's like the stress of him, never knowing when they're going to come, knock down the door and pulled him out of there. I was like how well does that guy sleep, seven years in that embassy, it can't be great, can't be great.
Awfully took his internet away right. I think that it that's, although to be fair Wikileaks, was releasing information on specific american soldiers in lines of combat so we're. Yes, they didn't redact any of the names. That was the problem. That's why people were pissed really yes, because in so I really don't know, I'm from Chelsea Manning was that he dumped all the information with you looks, including stuff. Those hundred acted and Ricky leaks, just released it. The was I was telling those the claim anyway. I don't know if that's accurate, because if the you find differently than let me know because I'll be happy to correct yeah, you know, I'm sure you will. I just don't know if it that is, I don't know, I don't have the information in front of me. Do you want to check now I'll take too much time that folks are going to have to google this one, but when one of the things that I was thinking when Trump got into office with all this drain that swamp shit, I was like. I wonder if Trump would be a
Duke supporter, one of Trump would be happy, depends what, if it helped them, yeah sure right, right or even and snowed in as well. I was wondering about that. Yeah I mean it's same sort of thing I mean. Unfortunately, politics very often has little to do with principal and everything to do with convenience yeah. So if it's helpful sure it's not and I like him, who's, always anti deep state and talking about the the men I do have extremely critical, a yes, but I do. I have a feeling it was went once you actually sit in the backseat. I think that tends to change. Remember Obama was too yeah five minutes later. Who's from people well, listen, um! I know you gotta get out of here. So let's just wrap this up. Tell people about your book. Yes, you can check out my book. The right side of history talked about a lot of the sort of deeper issues we're talking about. You know christian values and reason and sort of the it's it's a kind of short form: philosophical history of the West, from Sinai through Greece and talking about all the major enlightenment philosophers. Some of the things we talked about on the
l are in the book. It's number one bestseller on the New York Times, nonfiction list, at least at the moment. Since then, that's awesome, yeah, really pretty spectacular, excite except your show, also bends pair of so you can get the bench pair show on. I tunes you get on you to your Sunday review, which I did once yes, any specials wellness, specialist and yet again- and I would love to thank you should be in here and then your books available on Amazon everywhere, the other bench peerless German. Thank you, everyone for tuning into the program and thank you to our sponsors. Thank you to cast for mattresses. Ladies gentlemen, you can get one hundred dollars towards select mattresses by visiting casper dot com, Slash Rogan and using the promo code Rogan at checkout, that's casper, dot, com, Slash Rogan and Promo code Rogan for one hundred dollars towards select mattresses terms and conditions
apply. We are oh, so brought to you by the cash up the motherfucking car shop, the no for one finance app in the app store, the easiest way for you to send and receive money and buy and sell Bitcoin, and on top of that, it comes with cash. Car download, the cash app from the app store or the Google play market order. Your cash card today and when you download the cash app enter the referral code, Joe Rogan, all one word: five dollars would go to you. That is five three dollars and better. Yet five dollars would go to support our good friend, Justin Brands, fight for the forgotten charity which helping to build wells for the pygmies in the Congo. Thank you also to Traeger Grills Grill, I'm cooking on it tonight. How about that? Yes,
I fucking love their grills they're, really fantastic they're, so good at maintaining temperature and getting up to temperature quickly and now, with their new d to direct drive, drive train, it's they're even better and their applications. Fantastic again, I use them all the time. I've been cooking on these things long before their sponsor go to trigger grills dot com, slash job to check out the new grills or find a local dealer at trigger grills dot com. Slash Joe! Thank you. Everyone appreciate you all much love bye, bye,.
Transcript generated on 2019-09-13.