Lex Fridman is a research scientist at MIT working on human-centered artificial intelligence and autonomous vehicles.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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one hundred dollars of free delivery, credit on your first seven days you download the post mates app anything we need anytime, you need it. Post made it download, post mates and save with the code Joe Rogan, my guest today Tanta he is returning to podcast. He is a scientist he is a professor at MIT. Concentrates on human centered, ai and autonomous vehicles. Getting the podcast, were jokingly, arguing about movies and talking about fights. So if you're not into that skipping like one slash two hour in he's also a martial artist, he's a black belt in brazilian Jiu, really really cool guy in a brilliant man, and I really enjoy talking to him, and I hope to do that more often. So please give it up for my friend Mr Lex Friedman
Rogan experience join my my name Joe Rogan Boom, and would like hello, hey what's going on this sequel part two a very similar, if not the exact same suit on this is all I wear. You look very profession yeah very um reservoir dogs reservoir dogs. Well, let's go to the best sequel of all time. Godfather part, two This week of all time, I think John Wick might be having such? How dare you, Sir Godfather part? Two I mean that's, that has to be the best sequel. Okay, then, and if this is godfather part two is definitely not do. Part: three yeah part three was terrible right. Well, let's, let's offend anyone, but it was not up good yeah. I don't remember it. It was
the the older Pacino, oh with that that was like way later right, those nineties, oh okay, so it's like point break the remake Yes, I only try to redo things like way way way later. They almost never accept the alien franchise. They've done a pretty good job with the alien friend. Then a cute couple of duds then there, but for the most part, I've actually never seen in the venture. What who are you? Well yeah? You are you in a science, intelligent men can disagree, but you know in science. I don't know I prefer good. As for for Al Pacino, I would say that the older sent a woman Albertina. You know that really yeah. What come on and uh he got the Oscar for that one. What about the one when he played the devil and that Devil watch to France, There's two there's duds for everybody was that one that was advocate.
That was with Counter Reeve, ah canneries from John Wick, her John wait par threes or the matrix. The better movie did not true. Did you see this happened? This high school in North Bergen Jersey, put on the alien play a couple weeks ago and Sigourney Weaver showed up. She showed up like just the other day like say thanks or whatever tell NATO awesome bro. It looked off like crazy, and I was just wondering if they did this when you're in high school. Do you think you might have joined drama like if they did the alien play? I would have loved it. A little watched it, I'm not getting drama. Those people cried too much. There's too much work. It's cool suit, though yeah. Okay, let's talk about this there's two kinds of movies: there's fun movies and there's movies that air, like transformational for society get sent a woman. What okay, let's you can say scent of a woman, is transformational for so that's one of the greatest scene between a man and a woman on film the tango scene. Are you not married? Now, I'm not married,
what like someone talking about French, you can't speak French. I see yeah, it's nonsense! That movie sucked. I read about French so you have a friend a lot already and the barest instant of a woman, your favorite movie? No, it's not my favorite thing that movie sucked either by the way. If you get mad right now, I barely remember it, but it is. It is up there sure it's a good movie as one of the greatest performances by Cheney Acker. I have it's. Chris, your growth good start yeah. I bet you there's thousands of people agree with me right now. Yeah this millions that don't and called haters everyone is degrees is always a hater okay. So what's your favorite love scene in a movie, not like like between get married, bro, okay,
you're in the love of my citizenship. No, I'm not for yourself a gal settle down we're not talking about romantic comedies and I'm standing here. Uh Graham comes we're talking about serious, like dramatic moments, right, okay, so Godfather good angry yeah, great movie. This it have to have two guys like shoot, each other or okay. So you the central woman yeah, I'm sure I saw it yeah, I barely remember it all right! Well, it watch it today would new movie to me: okay, there's this broken man spoiler alert, considering suicide is deep, so he is tortured by you know by his in I'm in the war, by being responsible, all this kind of stuff. He is now mentoring, a younger version of himself was more character, more integrity and throughout all of this. He meets his beautiful young woman
blind for the dance and there's this beautiful moment where they connect e mean okay, listen Phil. What was the purpose of film right, entertainment or make us think I mean, may you guys think you're gonna think if you want to think Nothing makes you think of film can engage you, you can can resonate with you or not. I have a movie that I throw by people. Whenever I want to find out whether or not I want to listen to anything, they have to say about movies X, Makeena, the big Lebowski. Yeah. That's one of the greatest moves that could look you, ok, that could be like that could be like slightly better than sent a woman. Oh boy that also is one of the greatest scenes between a man and a woman when he is when the fine young, lady painting her toenails right and she's She offered him sex for money, yeah that that's a beautiful moment too beautiful.
At the meeting of the girl that used to be a hot mess. What's your name, Tara, Reid, yeah? She still how mass issue get our together, she's been like struck. The strike made, a series of which is because she's in right, yeah, So I passed the big Lebowski test and you failed the scent of a woman test. So I don't remember it. I gotta wrap this conversation a generally. Don't remember it I mean I'm sure it's great, I'm sure it's great if you a year of wise men, if you like it, I'm sure it's good and you also recognize the godfather three. It kind of sucks but yeah, but I like the Pacino Pacino, reminiscent Godfather, is about your people. The italian people have dominated the mob, the brilliant movies right, I mean godfathers about family right, there's something deeply like Jen pointed about that that, like in our modern society, really crave for just like bigger than the individual be
other than the rules of society. Government, the man, it's family. Above all, right, that's a guy! I don't know that's timeless that! is that the the the moment with the young Pacino when he talks to what his brother Fadel says, don't ever take sides against the family again ever yeah, that's one of the greatest moments at every moment. If all right, all right- all right- I'm romanticizing movies here, but it is like John Wick huh, never seen it whoa I've never seen it. It's good! Excuse me, it's good movie to watch on the treadmill is, ah, is he playing a russian mobster in that? No kills a bunch of them, though, and he speaks russian. He works for the Russians. Kills. People for the Russians, canneries is one of the greatest human beings ever think. So,
yeah he's like the nicest guy I heard, is really nice guy, but he plays a badass. Gangster would like it to be a little bit more fit we're going a little more see without a shirt on like not quite buying it average man yeah, but the average man's, not the fucking best assassin of all time with all this martial arts, skill yeah but fade or is big. Fade or might have like a gut, but he's a thick motherfucker ok, special young, fade or ever see ya fate are when he was in his prime, like back when he fought like Fujita like when there's a picture of fade or standing around with a bunch Kettlebells ever see a picture nope I was fate or his lifting days. I suspect, in this case, is coming for the little. That's that's one. One faders fairly young up there, but that's a
That's not the one I'm talking about you know the one with the kettle bells. Is that picture up see the final picture, never a six pack in sight. No, no six pack, but um I suspect that fade or might have been on some performance. Enhancing substances during his prime mean like hard training, lots of drilling technique. So the strategy steroids. How dare you, Sir Dude, in pride: everybody was on steroids yeah. That's him! Look at him! That's him on prime, that's, a big mother I do not know if he was on anything, but everybody else was mean literally everybody. They had it in their contract that you we will not test for steroids you know ensign anyway, told me that they like essentially encouraged people to take steroids. Yeah the pride days
That's right, you know, and it's not only Russians, don't have a long history of using performance enhancing substances. You I'm sure you saw that Movie RSA Chris, you see it yep fascinating right as it's it's fascinating it I mean. I don't steroids, often feel to me. I a bit of a witch hunt oftentimes, you assume people are on steroids, I'm a bit of, maybe I'm naive or an optimist, but I tend to give people the benefit, the doll until proven otherwise, but Chris obviously proved yeah throws a monkey wrench of those gears, but you know with with right the technique than that the technique execution, the timing it's a volume, no doubt the heart to his house yeah if not the greatest have would of all time. He certainly one of them, and I don't think steroids would help that. Yes, they do to help okay yeah. They help that guy particular yeah. They help everything. They have
training to help you help the ability to recover. They help your explosive power. They help your speed. They help everything. But they also it's not just steroids like a lot of them. Are e p epl radically and enhances your endurance, they're starting to catch people, need they just stripped Tj Dillashaw UFC Bantamweight champion for EPO for other, it's tragic, Yes, it is trash, especially TJ. You he's a just phenomenal fighter, if not mean certainly top ten pound for pound, and then this is one of those things that comes up and you go then to legacy killer and this world have to kind of consider. What kind of what should be allowed or not yeah. I agree with that There is an idea of what you should make steroids, legal right or not legal, say or some kind of supplementation, like
Where is the line when you, when you start to talk about the future of martial arts, the future sport? If you? control the level so that they're healthy. I mean isn't that the reason that they're not allowed is because, if abused they become unhealthy, they long term well of the person. There's look if they, was the case we wouldn't allow fighting. Nothing is more damaging steroids for sure for sure. Getting punched and kicked and fucking need in the face and L. Load into unconsciousness. That is way worse for even steroids the concern is not for the athlete the concerns for the opponent, the ideas, You will be able to inflict punishment that you would not ordinarily be able to inflict you will have more more endurance, you have more power, you will hurt someone potentially even looked there's going to be a time where someone dies in a mixed, martial arts of it, and if that someone who was the victor,
who did not die was on steroids. It is going to be a huge. National tragedy and a massive disaster for the sport for everything. If that, if it does happen, we can only hope it never does, but for sure you know it's a very, very dangerous game, you're playing and when you are martial arts of very dangerous. And when you are enhancing your body with chemicals that are illegal while you're doing that game. The real question is, though, here's my take on it This is it's one of the most human subjects and being mean, meaning that it's messy humans are messy. Like there's, good and there's bad, you know. Look like abortion is a messy subject. It's messy! You know whether you have the whether you agree with someone's right to have it or not. It is what you're doing is, especially as
the fetus gets older. It's messy. You know when it's a complicated discussion, it's not a clear. It's not like you should drink water. You know I mean it's like it's a very complicated discussion, steroid, are a very complicated discussion. You're not allowed to do them, but they, just for a reason. The reason why they exist is there really effective, they're really effective in enhancing your body, but how much of that will we allow? We allow creatine, we allow supplements, in terms of you know, there's there's certain things that can slide elevate. Your testosterone slightly elevate, your growth hormone. We allow song on ice baths and all these things that have shown to its recovery, but that's that's too much it's too good to to effective which, but it's weird it's weird- that this thing that we found that makes you better. He can't use yeah and this I I have to go back a little bit and disagree with the on something. So in terms of fighting
being dangerous and that's if we wanted to forbid are dangerous, for you would forbid fighting. I think the main thing you're doing can be dangerous. The main thing that we're talking about the sport, the the combat event that can be dangerous, because that is what we watch to people at the height of their skill, ability, heart passion putting their life at risk. That can be dangerous, but the supplementation around it the way to make it to make their training better more effective. That can be dangerous and I thought that can't be named to be dangerous, so I thought steroids were considered. Sort of band, because abuse lead to long term damage to health. Now we see steroids is cheating but it was banned initially because it has detrimental effects. You don't think that's true, no big
there's no real evidence that it's detrimental, it's not as detrimental as alcohol when you allow people to drink, but even a bit even used where the bodies There's there's not a lot of like there's a great documentary on it called bigger, stronger, faster, and it's about my friend Chris Bell, and when you watch that documentary you you like, oh well, did the real negative consequences of taking steroids or that it shuts down your endocrine system. So it stops your body's natural production of testosterone in growth, hormone and hormones. That's a real problem for young people that can be very devastating and they can lead to the. Chin, suicidal thoughts and all all sorts of really bad things when you testosterone show stout but As far as like death boy, I mean there's,
are prescribed, pain, pills every day of the week and fighters that are on injuries that have been. You know that have gotten surgery. They were there prescribed pain, pills every day of the week and those pain, pills, kill people left and right. That's just a fact: people die of those things all the time, much more so than die of steroids, so I'm not advocating for the use of steroids, I'm just I'm being pretty objective and neutral about this, but I'm just look out of like it is a it's a very messy subject: yeah, it's very eloquently put, but so so your problem in terms of damaging the opponent is, If one side takes throws another, doesn't exactly what happens if both the problem is you? require someone do that that maybe once the holistic person they don't want to introduce any natural exogenous steroids into their body and hormones into their body. They want. You want everything to be produced by the human body they want to. They want to eat,
healthy food train hard sleep well and compete naturally yet see T Fletcher here yesterday, yes, is natural, Bodybuilding or not bodybuilder. Power left our yeah yeah, but that's not required right. This is you're not requiring people you're, giving them the choice, so You know it's an interesting possibility where, in moderation, you'll be able to lost steroids in feature of athletics, because with an argument that If done in moderation, you can actually create healthier athletes. Yeah, that's I mean that's a real argument for the tour de France, the order they say that you actually are better off and healthier, taking steroids e p, o the you are doing it without it 'cause it's so unbelievable. Drooling on the body I mean those athletes, basically some the best people in the world at suffering, long term suffering. It's incredible. Ultra marathon runners, all for different sort of thing. You know and
you know the thing about ultra marathon runners didn't even test them. Good luck of iron know. Like Courtney, Walters woman, who you know she yeah she's, been here: she's candy strings be for each candy and pizza makes sense, mean just got a fucking iron will her will is indomitable and you could take all steroids. You want when you're running for three days that chick is going to beat you. She just doesn't know how to quit. Just has no quitting. Did you see the podcast with her where she talked about how she fell? She couldn't see, she was in experiencing. I think it was inter ocular hemorrhaging, so her her eyeballs were bleeding internally. Something like that where it was in eating her vision she couldn't see. I would stop. I would stop running. No, she fell.
She couldn't see. Busted her head, open, bleeding all down her face, keeps running, barely barely can see her feet as she's running keeps running. I'm glad those people out there. They don't like that. Like I don't know how to quit. Really yeah like I do a lot of stuff like that. Like stupid, like I ran yesterday, I couldn't sleep. I ran here yesterday. Thirteen miles, I'm not a runner, just just this weird apps you don't run I'd run, but I'm not a runner like who come I by a Havasu. Your body like yours were not exactly, would do like better built for short sprinting and then maybe killing somebody with our hands versus long distance. Well, you're, a black belt in Jiu, Jitsu right, yeah yeah. What do you train it now train at Broadway, Jujitsu in Boston, nice and that's and before I was in in Philly Ballin Studios with film agrees and so on right, but call bochniak, actually trains and Broadway
yeah he died last time, car yeah. He if you want, was talk about this a beat fight, because I'm I'm russian of the russian way, but I also love I mean Kyle to me- represents like the american music, like the rocky. If you remember that fight with against beat the third round. He was winning the best of What martial arts is MMA is to me is like you have two technicians: they just throw everything the way things screw. This yeah is going to throw it out a beat, had broken his hand. Focus hand somewhere. I think in the second round, so he was pretty compromised going into third round, couldn't really fire back, and I was just as zero quit in them. There is an animal yeah, I mean that's the most beautiful it's awkward like technical fights in the ground or technical striking like when, like to technicians, throw everything away this I'm sorry, but that's what is the love the most about any kind of fighting any kind.
The sport I enjoy it in the moment. I discourage it heavily. I don't think it's a smart way to fight yeah. Well then I get it. That's probably your. Because science as my job, it's like I'd. What I'd like like. I get. I get the impulse, but I don't want people to give in to the impulse. I think for Writing is something that you should do. There's there's principles you should follow to fight correctly it doesn't mean that you shouldn't take chances, but you know: there's moments like. Ricardo Lamas, when he fought MAX Holloway and they just stood in the center of the ring for the last few seconds of the fight and MAX probably pointed down at the ground, is like come on right here right here and they just started in Hey make it was. It was amazing happened, but if I was in MAX's Corner Blake dog Don't no don't do that,
Batman, this macho shit is going to give you fucking brain damage. You're going to get hit with. But you wouldn't get hit with that's a difficult. Like you said, human nature is messy. I would say that is the greatest. That is the greatest moment of their lives. That that way, Or listen moment of MAX greatest moment of MAX is the greatest center way to many times but MAX Holloway is the greatest featherweight of all time is a guy who destroyed Jose uh although twice he's a guy that he's he's beating everybody in front of him at featherweight the id, this one moment where they decided to throw how tall is skill and technique and just swing for the bleachers in the middle of the octagon, it was a fun moment. It was great to watch, but the idea that that is the greatest moment. Life is ridic, you're, a crazy person yeah this moments in sports that are just MAGIC olympic
bring that when, like the thing that you don't think should happen or can possibly happen or is not wise, would people just everything away. Yeah you like that yeah, your passion person, yeah fashion person, yeah for sure, though, an interesting thing for someone who studies artificial intelligence mean if anybody lives in this podcast like what the fuck so this guy do so many reservoir dogs. They talk about movies, so many people angry right now talk about Chinamas vehicle. We have plenty of time, sir. We have plenty of time, but that's the beautiful thing about this. Podcast were just talking So tell me what you got here with your notes. Man mean you are fucking prepared, I mean yeah. A lot of shit here, many many pages for sure I don't want to miss out on this stuff. I mean there's been a lot of exciting, stuff on the autonomous vehicle space since you came on Tesla and I've. Experience with that thing is like when I put it on autopilot and it's stunning crazy This is in terms of performance of the v's amazing, well in
in terms of its ability to change lanes, Ann its ability to drive without you doing anything, I just put my hand on the wheel and hold it there and it does all the work so because, like one or two people listen to this podcast, I want to take this opportunity and tell people if you drive a Tesla, whether you listen to this now or a year from now two years from now Tesla or any The car keep your damn eyes, on the road. So whatever you think the system is able to do. You will have to stay, monitor the road and you still have to take over when it fails. When really so. What's wrong with this? Is like the moment we're throwing down right now. I think
Is your level of expertise obviously run down with your? No, I I think it's really important to the in this transition phase, whatever the car company, whatever the system that we don't over trust the system, we don't become complacent, we don't think you can do more than a can of currently for thirty thousand people die in the United States from from fatal crashes? The number one reason for that is distraction, so texting smartphone. How much is up since smartphones people don't exact. They were trying to understand that. There's a lot of studies showing that it's significant increases? But it's hard to say it's because of smartphones, but it's almost obvious yeah, it's pretty obvious. The flip side is, even though everybody is now using a smartphone texting so on they become better at using the smartphone, so they're, better at texting and driving the better balancing that now. This is a horrible thing to do so. If you
listen to this podcast. You should listen to it in your car and keep your eyes on the road and not text. I think worst was Pokemon when Pokemon was in its prime. I was watching a guy on the highway playing pokemon as he was driving more than one person, two people a guy and I saw a girl dude- wants to holding the phone. On the steering wheel, playing pokmon script wise Well shit. Sorry, I'm confused! What is this? This grandpa in Japan times around on a bike. Oh my god. Pokmon also look at this. This guys. Fifteen phones, that's ridiculous! This guy needs to find hookers people that do this also in their car, with maybe four or five doing exactly what you're saying this man needs a better hobby. This is preposterous. Look at his farm. He can't see what the fucks going on in front of him. He
about three hundred dollars a month to buy virtual currencies in the game, wow that guys board or in an innovative genius the perspective one eyed people misuse their innovative. How is he innovative he's just playing a stupid game, always driving around his bike like an asshole? Well, he's In fact, instead of a woman, think it's passion it's the most amazing moment of his life to try and poking I'm sure. Most people are my side, sensible, woman, oh you're, crazy, easy using more people are on your side. The Thinkcentre woman's grace will not set the woman, but I was defending godfather scent of a woman. You were defending Godfather gets me. I mean I'm gonna, throw you out of the plan. Okay, I'm gonna stipulate this conversation Jamie. Can you edit this in post? Did you see the video that just came out yesterday of a Tesla on autopilot, avoiding crash all right, so
yeah, I have and there's a lot of exams. Quite a few of those. Of course, it's like hard to prove exactly what happened with where the was involved, just like on the flip side, it's hard to prove that autopilot was involved in the dangerous stuff, but I think by the measure. The media is really negative in terms of their reporting on test, so there I think I think, you've taught to this about before in general, negativity gets more clicks, Brian and I think tests the negative stuff on Tesla gets a lot of clicks and, while not Tesla, let me speak more broadly about a Thomas vehicles. If there's any faith Haliti any crash. It's overrepresented it's over morning on yeah, so I need to meet people who are interested in a I helping, save lives in these systems. Like auto pilot, I feel you carry the response.
Ability of being at least as good of a driver. You are when it under manual control. So don't text and drive. Keep your eyes on the road. If I say anything over and over in this podcast- is that Drunk driving, of course, is the other one and so don't drink and drive. But the number one thing is distracted, driving so put your phone down. I agree: music, some classic rock classic Rock into yeah, yeah click credence You know, like I don't know like it like. You would change the channel now you're going to put me in this sense. Fortunate son comes on, you get excited they go. I take take shut off the start. Drinking no led Zeppelin, Lynyrd, Skynyrd court Hendrix Course, Rodricks, not to admit something. I thought about messaging you a couple times I wanted to play guitar. Do you yeah good
You can't are you good at Jujitsu yeah, I'm good, I'm on black, but I'm pretty good. Your black belt, too. I'm sure you good yeah, I'm not world class and I'm going to fuck me up, I'm a three stripe. Purple bell: guitar, that's a good way to put it yeah yeah! I see that would be out hunting and look up blue Belton Hunting, yeah yeah yeah. I've been doing it like. I got the purple belt by doing it long time, as opposed to being amazing. But you take lessons. No, I learned everything myself. I have a couple of videos online me playing comfortably numb. Did you learn from watching videos, or did you learn from books? Like how did you let me see this, give me this look atyou. This is good enough for you to yeah. This is gonna playing. Then I was thinking I will pick it up and the filling set up a to my channel and I'll yeah? it's me playing with you, but it? But it's so good. It sounds like people from humming songs, yeah.
But so this is not your job in this. Is that night in a but this thing get block. If you were humming a song yeah and then someone made a claim on that song, it would block, are. Are you to like literally we get de monetized and put way, lose are streaming ability to happen. Lots of things it's fucked up. Man like we've gotten flag. For watching something on the screen picture picture, no sound, commenting on it we get flagged and they want all the advertising revenue from a three. Our show for five hundred and ten seconds of a video to slightly broken system. Oh it's broken, but there's a lot of scam. Artist too so I played another song black Betty, oh yeah, and I I don't know I've played the damn song, but they said it was it. Wasn't they exam that was jam or whatever it said it was there and I may they have borrowed the beat behind it from there I'm not sure
just a completely yeah. Well that's what I was about that song like it sounds like there's other shit going on. Besides just your guitar. Oh no! That's all me really! It's all made bed the batman that again, that's really good man. This sounds good as a great fucking song to come. We know the scariest thing for me to play guitar on this podcast. So it's like going back Fourth, I do it did not do it actually play play play. It was only a few people that ever played player last ban and Suzanne from honey, honey. Uh Gary Clark didn't write. He just came out and talked he brought his guitar. I want to play Hendrix here. Really: yeah live life you got it right with you right now. I meant I was. Sure in the the future that not promising upscale you wear with a bandanna. Is that actually insensitive, though you're allowed to Joe
I will not take it, so you know basically any place you're allowed to her is like just you know. It's just. Is this. How you can't wear dreadlocks, though this rules as Hendricks is above all rules, though, he's a goat, no of guitar players, that's the goat, You know the reason why this called it is called variant yeah. I stole it from General Andrew yeah. What's more, I don't remember if we brought this up last time, but I just rembered seeing this video you're playing guitar. While you were driving yeah well, you shouldn't do that dude, it was a real. Why is why you doing that said? I test track. What kind of cars looks at Lincoln, Lincoln MK yes, I they do that the lincolns do that we converted it and if that's our code, the car wow, and that is crazy?
who converted this car to drive autonomous autonomously wow and what exactly Do you have to do to a car to change like it, because that car does not have the copies the capacity to do anything like that, so the right, my correct? No, no! No! Actually not, but you are absolutely correct. The there's the first part is being able to control the car with a computer which is converting it to be drive by wire tb. Can the steering the brake braking acceleration to the can be able to control with the joystick, and then you have to put laser all around the cars that we can kind of sensor and software. So what's the best kind of sensor. Old laser ah lot of debate on this and that's the big. This is the throw down between y'all mosque and everybody else. You know musk says the best sensors camera everybody else. Well, everybody else says that at this time lied are, which are these lasers? Yes is the best sensor, so
the I'm more on the side, in this case on camera, on Eli Musk. So here's the deal lasers are more precise. They were better and in poor lighting conditions, they're more reliable. You can actually build safe systems today that use lidar. The problem is that they don't have their much information, so we use our eyes to drive and cameras the same thing and they have just a lot more information. So if you're going to build artificial intelligence systems, soda machine learning systems that learn from huge amounts of data cameras the way to go, so you can learn so much more. You can see so much more, so the the richer deeper sensor is camera, but it's much
harder. You have to collect a huge amount of data, it's a little more futuristic. So it's longer term solution. So today to build a safe vehicle. You have to go lighter tomorrow. However, you define tomorrow, he almost has its in a year are, there say, is five ten twenty years. Camera is the way to go. So that's that's! The
the hard debate there's a lot of other debates, but that's one of the core ones. It's basically for camera. You, if you go camera, like you doing the test that there's seven cameras in your Tesla three looking forward, there's all around so on one looking inside. No, you have the model s yeah yeah, so that that one doesn't have a camera. Let's look inside, says all all cameras, plus radar and ultrasonic senses. That approach requires collecting huge amounts of data and they're doing that they drove now about one dot, three billion miles under autopilot Jesus. Yes, it's! Ah, it's a very large amount of data, so you're talking about over five hundred thousand vehicles have autopilot four hundred and fifty, I think one thousand have the new version of auto
pilot autopilot to which is the one you're driving, and all of that is data, so all of those all the edge cases, what they call them all the difficult situations that occur is feeding the machine learning system to become better and better and better, and the open question is how much better does need to get to get to the human level performance like one of the big. I think one of the big assumptions are assuming beings is that we think that driving is actually pretty easy and we think that humans sucker driving those two assumptions we think like driving. You stay in the lane you stop for the stop sign is pretty easy to automate and then the other one is, you think, like humans are terrible drivers and so it'll be
easy to build a machine that I'll performs humans are driving by that's. I think, there's a lot of flaws behind that intuition. We take for granted how hard it is to look at the scene like everything you just did picked up, move around some objects. It's really difficult to build an artificial intelligence system. That does that to be able to perceive and understand the seen enough to understand the physics of the scene, like all these objects that like how to pick them up the texture of those objects wait to understand glasses folded and unfolded open water bottle. All those things is common sense, knowledge that we take for granted. We think it's trivial, but there is no artificial system in the world today. Nor will there be for perhaps quite awhile. That can reason do that kind of common sense reasoning about the physical world at to that pedestrians? So add some crazy people in this room right now to the whole scene
being able to notice like this guy's, an asshole look. What was he doing? What is he doing? Get off that skateboard out? Jesus is in traffic and the considering not that he's a NASCAR he's a respectable skateboarder uh it that in order to make him behave a certain way. You yourself at the behavior So it's so it's not just you, leave the world. You have to act in a way they get to assert your presence in this world. You have to take risks. So, in order to make the skateboarder not cross the street, you have to perhaps accelerate if you have the right away, and these are that there's a game theoretically game of chicken to get right I mean, we don't even know how to approach that as artificial intelligence sort of research commune. And also as a society do we want an autonomous vehicle that speeds up in order to make up, across the street, which is what we do all the time we have to assert our presence. If there's a
if there's a person who doesn't have the right away, it could begins crossing we're going to either maintain speed or speed up potentially, if we want him to not cross so that game there to get that right. That's a dangerous game for a robot, it's for a robot and for us to be rationally, if that, God forbid least a fatality for a society, to rationally reason about that, I think about that. I mean a fatality like that, could basically bankrupt the company there's a lawsuit going on right now, about a a a a an accident in northern California, with the with the Tesla yeah and are you aware well
yeah that one was circumstances about that one. So there was, I believe, in mountain view, fatality in the Tesla, where it this is a common problem for all all link. Keeping systems like like that's a lot of pilot is ah there's a divider in the highway and basically the car was driving. You know long lane and then the car in front moved to a new Jason Lane, and this divider appeared right. So you have to now steer to the right and the car didn't and went straight into the divider. Oh wow it you know uh. Basically what that balls
onto who is the car drifted out of lane right or didn't, adjust, probably to the lane? Those kinds of things happen, and this is because the person was allowing the autopilot to to do everything know that you can't. So we have to be extremely careful here. I don't know the the really deep details of the case, I'm not sure exactly how many will do so. There's a judgment I'm with the people the person was doing and then there's in the house with the system did right. The system did it drifted out of line. The question is: did the person was a person paying attention and was there enough time given for the person to take over and if they were paying attention to catch the vehicle steer back onto the road? As far as I believe, the only information they have is hands on steering wheel. And they were saying that, like half the half the minute leading up to the crash, the hands weren't on the steering wheel, or something like that, basically trying to infer where the person paying attention not, but we don't have the
nation, exactly what would where were their eyes right, you can only make guesses as far as I know again. So the question is this is the eyes on the road thing, because I think I've heard Jenna pockets, saying you're tempted to sort of look off the road, your new Tesla, or at least become a little bit complacent. That's the worry, the worries that you rely on the thing that you would relax too much. But what would that relaxation lied to that? The problem is if something happened, if you weren't, you know when you're driving, I mean we've discussed this many times on the podcast, to the reason why people have road rage One of the reasons is because you're in a heightened state because cars are flying around, you in your brain, is prepared to make split second decisions and moves, and the worry is that you would relax that because you're so
so comfortable with that thing driving everybody that I know that it's tried that they say you get. You really used to it doing that get really used to it just driving around for you. So the question is: would be what happens when you get used to it. You start looking off, roadie, stop texting more g start watching a movie. It's that! That's! Ah, that's really an open question and the like, for example, we just did the study published a study from the m. I t on what people in our data set with will collect these days is set of three hundred thousand miles in teslas instrumented, all these teslas and wash what people are actually doing and are they paying attention when they disengage the system? So there's really important moment. Here we have eighteen thousand of those when the person catches the car. You know the disengage.
Pilot and that's a really Tesla uses this moment as well. It's a really important window into difficult cases. So some percentage of those some small percentage is about ten percent. Is we call them Tricky situations is situations where you have to immediately respond like thing a lane, if there's a stopped car in front so on the question is: are people paying attention during those moments so in our data set, they were paying attention. They were still remaining vigilant. Now, in our data set, the autopilot was going on quote, encountering tricky situations, it every nine point two miles, so you could say it was failing every nine point, two miles. That is one of the reasons. We believe that people are
bill, paying a big as it remaining vigilant that it's regularly and unpredictably sort of drifting out of lane or miss behaving. So you don't over trusted. You don't become too complacent. The open question is when it becomes better and better and better and better will you start Becoming- when it dries on the highway for an hour an hour and a half and is opposed to nine dot two miles make that fifty miles sixty miles? Do you start to over trust it and that's a really open question: do you think? Do you anticipate a time and anywhere in the near future, where you won't have to correct you will allow the car to do because the car will be perfect. The car first of all will never be perfect. No one will ever be perfect autonomous vehicles will always, you think, require at least some sort of manual override yeah.
That's interesting that you're saying that, because you work in a are like what makes you think that that's impossible to achieve. Well, let's, let's talk because because you're using perfection, I think perfect. Okay, that's about word yeah! So in it the a year, I guess you're much line, but let me see will the cheap, because people are obviously not perfect. It would achieve a state of competence that exceeds the human being and, let's put it in a dark way, a company as measured by fatal crashes. Yes, yes, I absolutely believe so and perhaps in the near term, near to five years yeah. For me, five ten years is near term for you on in, in a mosque time, that's converted to one year have you met him? Yes interviewed him recently fascinating cat right, yep, weird shit bounce around behind those eyeballs,
You don't realize until you talk to me person, you like, oh, you got a lot going on in there man yeah there's this passion is DR. I mean one of the hurricane of ideas and focus and confidence. The thing is in a lot of the things he does which I admire greatly from any man or woman innovator. It's just boldly fear. The pursuing new ideas are jumping off the cliff and learning to fly on the way down that that's no matter what happens, he'll be remembered as a great innovators of our time.
Whatever you say, maybe so in my book, Steve Jobs was as well. Even if you criticize, perhaps he hasn't contributed significantly to the technological development of the company, are the different ideas they did still. His brilliance was in all the products of Iphone of the the personal computer and MAC and so on, and I think the same is true with with with the on and yes, there is in this space of a Thomas vehicles of of semi autonomous vehicle, the driver assistance systems, it's a pretty tense space to operate in there's several communities in there that are very responsible, but also aggressive in their criticism,
so in driving in the automotive sector. Obviously, since Henry Ford and before there's been ah culture of safety of just great engineering, these were like some of the best engineers in the world in terms of large scale production. You talk about Coyote to about four g m. These people know how to do so. Fifty well- and so here comes along with Silicon Valley ideals that throws a lot of it out the window and says we're gonna revel as the way we do automation in general we're going to make software updates to the car once a week twice a week over the air just like that? That makes people in the safety, engineers and human factors engineers really uncomfortable like? What do you mean you're, going to keep updating the the software the car out like how are you testing it? That makes me feel really uncomfortable. Why doesn't make him uncomfortable? Because the way
wait in the automotive sector? You test the system. You come up with the design of the car every component, and then you go through like really rigorous testing before it ever hits the road all right. Here's an idea from the test aside is where they, basically they in shadow test the software, but then they just release it. Essentially, the drivers become the testing and then a regularly updated to to to to adjust a if any issues arise. That makes people uncomfortable because there's not a standardized testing procedure. There's not there's not at least the feeling in the industry of rigor, because reality is we don't know how to test software in the same kind of with the same? a of rigor that we've tasted automotive system tested automotive system in the path. So I think it's
extremely exciting and powerful to make software sort of approach. Automotive engineering, with at least in part, a software engineering perspective. So just doing what's me Silicon Valley, successful, so updating, regularly aggressively innovating on the softer side. Your test, the over the air, while we're sitting here, could get a telling you all day the flip of a of a bit. Is it a must says it can be eight in game all new capabilities? That's really exciting, but that's also dangerous, and that that balance we uh well what's dangerous about it. That would faulty software faulty a bug. So if you're you're the absent your phone fail, the
time, where, as a society used to software failing, we just kind of reboot the device where we start the app most complex software systems in in the world today, if we think outside of nuclear engineering and so on, there really nobody that they're too complex to really thoroughly test so store, complete I think proving that the software is safe is nearly impossible almost after systems that that six, that's the that's nerve wracking to a lot of people, because do this that there's no way to prove that the new software update is safe. So what it? What is the process works? Do you know like how old they create? software they update it and then they tested on something how much testing do they do and what how much they do before they upload it to your car
Yes, I don't have any inside information, but I have a lot of sort of public available information which is up They are they test the softer shadow mode, meaning they see how the new software compares to the current softer by running it in parallel on the cars and seeing if there's disagreements of like as seen if there's any major, agreements and bringing those up and seeing what by parallel. I'm sorry do you mean both programs running at same time, one the original, the same, I'm the original update, actually controlling the car and the new update is just making the same decision making the same decisions without them being without you. Getting the actual okay without actually affecting the vehicles dynamics, and so that's
so I really powerful with testing. I think the software infrastructure that test was built a lost for that and I think other company should do the same. That's a really exciting, powerful way to approach, not just automation, that just autonomous vehicles or send me Thomas vehicles, but just safety is basically all the data. That's on cars, bring it back to a central point to where you can use the edge cases, all the weird situations and driving to improve the system, to test the system, to learn to understand where the car is used, misused. How can be improved and so on that sinks, the powerful, how many people they have the analyzing all this data. It's a it's a really good question, so they have the interesting thing about driving, as most of it is pretty boring. Nothing interesting happens so
They have automated ways of extracting again what are called edge cases. So these weird moments of driving once you have these weird moments. They have people annotate. I, know what the number is, but a lot of companies are doing this, it's in the hundreds and thousands basically of humans annotate the data to see what happened. The most of what they're trying to do is to automate that annotation, so to figure out how the debt, the data can be automatically used to improve the system. So they they have. They have methods, for that is it's a huge amount of. I think, in the recent autonomy day a couple of weeks ago that this big autonomy day, where they demonstrated the vehicle driving itself on a particular watch the road they. Ah they showed off the you know, they're able to quarry the data basically ask questions of the day. It's saying the example they gave is there's a bike on the back of a car
the bicycle in the back of a car and they're able to say well when the bicycles in the back of a car- that's not a bicycle. That's just the part of the car and they're able to now look back into the data and find all the other cases, the thousands of cases that happened all over the world in Europe and Asia. In South American and North America on and pull all those elements and then train the train, ah perceptual system of auto pilot to be able to to ah better recognize those bicycles as part of the car, so every edge case like that they go through. I'm saying: ok, the car freaked out in this moment, and then we find moments like this in the rest of the data and then improve the system. So it's it's. Ah, this kind of cycle is the way to deal with uh with problems with failures of the system is to say every time the car fails. It's something say: is this part of the.
Bigger set of problems. Can I find all those problems, and can I improve it with a new update and it just keeps going? The open question is how many loops like that you have to take for the car to become really good better than human. Basically, how hard is driving how many weird situations when you manually drive, do you deal with every day? Somebody somebody mentioned, I don't know, there's like millions of cases when you watch videos you see them. Somebody mentioned ah, that they drive a truck a ups truck at past cow pastures and they know that if there's no cause in the count, cop pastor, that means they're grazing and if they're grazing, my me and I'll, be using the correct terms, apology is not called guy
that that means that there may be cause up ahead on the road there's just this kind of reasoning. You can use to anticipate difficult situations, and we do we do that kind of reasoning about like everything cars today can't do that kind of reasoning: they're, just perceiving what's in front of them now outside of Tesla, how many other companies have autonomous systems that are driving their cars. So maybe it's good to step back There's several and there several leaders in each different approach, so first let's draw a line between the different types of systems are: okay, one there fully autonomous vehicles these the cars you can think about that. Don't have a steering wheel if they have a steering wheel, it doesn't matter there in full control and if there's a crash, the car companies liable. Those exist, no
At it's a gray area, though, because many companies are basically saying that that's what they're doing but they're, not quite they're, so the leader in that space is used to be called. Google self driving car programme now is called waymo. They are doing that there it's called level four level, five there's levels to this game. This is this particular level where it's fully autonomous, now they're trying to achieve full autonomy, but the way there doing it currently is they're testing on public roads with what's called a safety driver. So there's a driver always ready to take over and the driver does have to take over. At some rate you know frequently, and so the fact,
the drivers to take over that's not fully autonomous, then right. So there's no car today that you can just get in without a safety driver. So there's nobody behind the wheel and using your app sort of get from point a to point right, but out of the cars that are semi autonomous, where there is an autonomous program, but you do have to keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention to the road. What what are leaders besides Tesla, there's Tesla, and who else is doing it so there's there's several systems the best way to find leader but or the one really see this like does Mercedes and Bmw day is the same system today, someone make a system for cars or do they create their own system. Yeah that that's a really good question. So there is, in some cases there's a mobile I and Nvidia there's these companies that nvidia the the video card.
Opening the same, the same folks that power the quake game right, the graphics on the quake game. You can use those gpu, graphics, processing units to run machine learning. Co So there are also creating that Nvidia Drive scalable AI platform for autonomous driving. In fact, I don't want you to buy a Tesla. Five months ago, or something so much so the thing in there now most likely is ah Nvidia Draft P X, two, so the that works on cameras that that just runs code that takes in camera data, but We can work on anything else, so it could work on lidar as well. Somebody had a system yeah but need different, code so the lidar requires very different kinds of processing. Very. Does anybody use that with cars without semi autonomous cars lidar? Yes, the well okay, so semi autonomous. We have to be careful.
Because the way more cars like the quote, unquote fully autonomous cars are currently semi autonomous, Ok, so that's the highest level of semi autonomous right yeah. I guess it's not even the highest level. It's a principle! It's a philosophy! Difference Is there saying we're going to do full autonomy? We just not quite there yet most other companies they're doing semi autonomous, better called driver assistance systems is they're saying we're not interested in full autonomy. We just want a driver assistance system. They just helps you steer the car. So, let's, let's call those semi autonomous vehicles or draw persistent systems the there's several leaders in that space, like one car, we're studying. That's really interesting, is Cadillac Supercrew system. So GM has the system's called super cruise. That, I think, is the best comparable system to autopilot today, the
the key differentiator. There is there's a lot of little moments, but the key differentiators there's a driver monitoring systems is a camera that looks at you and tells you if your eyes on the road or not, and if your eyes go off the road for, I believe more than six seconds, it starts warning you and says you have to be. You have to get your eyes back on the road, so that's called driver monitoring, that's one of the big disagreements, for example to me and Ellen and many experts in the field and in the test approach. Is that there should be a drive, a monitoring system. There should be a camera lens. What is you and feel like they shouldn't be? I think his focus the test was focus is on just improving the system so fast and so effectively that it doesn't matter what the driver does. That it. You know so essentially, no safety net, no safety net, and I think they operate like that.
On and in many ideas that they work with, is the sort of boldly proceed forward to try to make the car extremely safe. Now the concern there is, you have to acknowledge the psychology of human beings that, unless the car is perfect or under our definition, perfect, which is much better than human beings, then you have to be able to. Yes, you have to be able to make sure that the people are still paying attention to help the car out when it fails, and for that you have to have drive model, you have to know what the cars right now your Tesla only knows about your presence because from the steering wheel, touching steering wheel, which is a kind of drive monitoring system in knows you're there, but it's not nearly as effective it knowing you're there because
the end of the visually. You can be tracked by clamps I've seen people do that that they've developed these clamps, the just put on the steering wheel and hold the phone and then also trick the system into thinking that you're holding on the wheel yeah. You could do a lot of purses, actually work really well, me how hanging purse no like shoving a purse into into the somebody did that with an orange or something time found, but they said it didn't work maybe needs to be all the way around the outside of it. I think it depends on the shape of the orange. How right? But is this a lot of debate? If no, the point is, there's wasted trick. The system there's
not monitoring the driver. That's the point! Yeah! It's not monitoring and driving a lot of people. Believe you need Thio uh. You think you need to make sense yeah. I think I think uh not just for the safety of the system, but to create an experience like, I think, there's value for the car to know more about you sort of just like that. What's happening, they're scanning this guy's eyes, as the minority report shift freaks me out, so yeah. There's a lot of companies, sort of springing up there doing computer vision on the face and so on, to try to detect where you're looking so what cars have that now, the the major one. Is this a purposes? Is not many cars? A few cars are starting to add it Europe. What what's a super crew system? That's the Gm Cadillac, okay they're trying to so it's in their super expensive line of currently and
I think trying to added to the the full line up of also in my cadillacs. What is that big cruiser that they have now the big four door car the really high and to see two six, I don't know what it is they have a new one. That's really nice is that what a partner, the big sedan that thing? Yes, it's I pretty if that's the CT six but the the one we're looking at the c two six yeah, that's that's is two thousand eighteen CT six yeah, it's you know it's the and the, but that they won at to their their full fleet, so really interested and have the same amount of cameras is the Tesla system does no, and it has a very different. Lost his well in another way, which is it only works on a very specific roads at an interstate highways. There's something called Dee Dee operation designed domain, so they they define that this thing super because system only works in this particular set of roads and with their basically just major highly
is the Tesla approach is saying basically what you are joking referred to as a right is: it works basically anywhere If you tried to turn on your autopilot, you can basically turn out anywhere where the cameras are able to determine either lane markings or the car in front of you, and so that's a very different approach, saying you can basically make you work anywhere or in cattle. I case making work only specific kinds of roads, so you can test the heck out of those roads. You can map those roads, so you can use actually lidar to map the full roads. You know the full job tree of all the interstate highway system they can operate on and then also coordinate with yes, we're we're sort understands were like bumps in the road might be or hills I in that sense it cornices you PS, four different curvature information, but not the to biography that no and like construction is a big one, would be crazy. New potholes
well potholes in the big problem. I think construction is the big problem like just this quickly. Changing Mamic information which, like abs, like ways provide. I mean that funnels air, pretty big problem, Boston yeah, I know for sure but uh yeah, it is actually probably even worse. I blew out two tires in one day in New York start an unlucky day yeah, but I'd rather you blow out your tires for sure. Then then I mean the kind of fatality that happened in in the Mount view with Tesla Believe- is slightly construction related. So I mean there's a lot of safety, critical event that I have on construction related stuff. I would like it if that stupid Tesla could figure out the hole in the ground now, so I don't have to blow a tire out like come on Bro. I feel your pain you figured out but priorities I'll I'll, make sure I'll forward. This podcast to alliance make sure they work on this I think he's busy. What is this
Tesla auto part will be able to avoid potholes in the road says: e lawn, musk, haha, mother fuckers on top of shit. What's the date on that April April, seven, just now and that's an interesting thing, that's another! That's almost an ethical question: whether you want a car to avoid a situation by swerving right, because when you swerve you now introduce as opposed to sort breaking the like only you swerving into another lane means you might create safety situation elsewhere. You might put some yes in danger, yeah, that's why I was saying: if it coordinated with GPS, it would have previous knowledge
no sort of like ways tells you where the cops are yep. You know I mean so that kind of information will be extremely powerful use for the the the the problem. Is it's hard to get it really up to date that kind of mission really up to date. It's just an infrastructure question, just getting the getting the softer the date and place to where the car be able to learn quickly from all the things are changing. I think pot holes. Don't change that often so that that's that's a different thing, but in terms of construction zones in terms of other weird things that change the Dan makes the geometry of the road. That's that's difficult to to get right, so cadillacs doing a version of it, but it sounds like it's a little bit less us involved less comprehensive. Maybe there's a better
it's from you. Unless I would say it's more safety focused as a sort of ah uh. What's the right word to use here, it's more cautious in its implementation, so GM again has ah is a tradition for better, for worse did Jamie yeah. This is a video they have on their website display problem, showing you shows like the signal coming on. Oh wow, the green pay attention, lady she's too hot. It's not paying attention, look into people staring at her and they'll comment. One of the things that it's hard to talk about without actually experienced in the system is what's more important than driving monitoring and any of the details we talk about is like how the whole thing feels the whole thing together, how it's implemented the whole interface and catalog systems actually done really well in the sense that there's a cleric
into it, like everything, becomes there's a green color and a blue color, and you know exactly when the system is on its off. That's one of the big things people struggle with is just confusing in other cars. Drivers not being able to understand when the system is on or off right. So you think the system is doing it and then just slam into something that wasn't even on now. When This car is operating in this manner, cameras is it using yeah? That's a good question. I should know that, but I think it's only forward to facing cameras. As far as I know, I think it's two cameras it maybe three camera. Tell you just sat back, so she doesn't have her hands on the wheel at all. Yet so she's watching right, because the car is able to see where the eyes are its hands off,
come see your lodging your hands off the wheel. It's very interesting. It's ah they're certain human behavior aspects that come into play to this. So you start to, like I found myself actually becoming a little more drowsy with this system. I haven't driven it enough, so I haven't gotten used to it, but you have to at least in the initial stages. It kind of forced you to look at the road in a way that felt artificial. I think it's something that gets better with time, but you get used to it, but it's almost like a game. Ified thing that the car, when you look off road, ah starts to tell you that you look a fraud, so you kind of psychologically pressure to always stare at the road, and you realize that actually, when you drive you off and look around and so having to like stair forward can be a little bit yeah? Exactly you start think, there's something something
peaceful and hypnotic about those lanes just coming at you and just the law Why is that confuses the shit out of me, because I could not be tired at all, but if it's night time I'm on the highway in those lines they just start to. Take you to dreamland. I get the there's also just the vibration- is that, like that home driving same with trains, planes as well yeah puts me out so that there's a cadillac system. That's the big leader I would say in the driver, monitoring and then Tesla is the the no monitoring monitoring and data collection, Bmw has a system as well the years yeah
am W. What are they using? I don't. I don't want to speak too much to the details, the devil in keeping systems, the basically systems that keep you in the lane. Ah, that is similar to what in Spirit Autopilot is supposed to do, but is less aggressive and how often you can use and so on. If you look at the performance of the of the actual, how often the system is able to keep you in lane? Autopilot is currently the leader in that space and they're also the most aggressive innovators in that space they're like really pushing it to improve for them further, and the open question is the worrying question is: if it improves much more, are there going to be effects like complacency like people we'll we'll take we'll start texting more, we'll start looking off road? More, that's! Ah, it's a total,
no question and nobody knows the answer to that. Really at and there's a lot of folks, like I mentioned in the safety engineers and human factors, communities of these psychology folks who have roots in like aviation, dads, no there's there's been. Seventy years of work that looks on vigilance that people, if I force you to sit here and monitor for something weird happening, like radar operators in the World WAR, two had to watch, you know for the dot to appear If I may see you behind that radar and make you do it after about fifteen minutes, but really thirty minutes, you'll see your rate of being able to detect any problems will go down significantly. You just kind of zone out, and so there's like all kinds of psychologist, that is that show that we just were crappy. Human beings are really crappy and monitoring automation. If I tell you if I put it
bye and you just say, monitor this system, so it doesn't, kill anyone you'll to know we have to be engaged. You have to be engaged, you have to be. You know there has to be. Dance Dan's attention, and so we don't have don't a mode for watching autonomous things right if you consider historically the kind of loads of people have for observing things don't know, have a mode from making sure that an autonomous thing does its job yeah, it's some of my sets like oh, you know, I mean like in my car, okay, I'm driving here we go boo, driving turn. I'm thing I'm in driving mode when you're in AWE Tom this mode and you're observing just like what is this. I've never done this, for us is fucking weird. It feels weird not part of human nature right so normal state. One thing it's done commonly in now is aviation, so pilots, pilots are basically monitoring fully most planes- yes good point. As far as I know, many planes today could fly almost fully autonomously. It's also good point
the software and updates, because isn't that part of the issue with this Boeing, seven hundred and thirty seven max system yeah these. Some said: they've had problems with they've been faulty and a couple of crashed yeah and that that's a really good point and they they have. The yeah, there's been two tragic crashes recently with sheknows, with a with a max of someone, give a bench those things right. How nothing, I'm not following. They also got rid of a bunch of inspectors. I think they fired like eighty inspectors today and the unions freaking out yep and if this guy, obviously this politics have a sure, is, I think, if a supposed to supervise- and there were, There- was there's a close relationship between bone FAA. This questions around I mean there's better experts at that. The me
on the software side, it is worrying because it was a single software update, essentially that helps prevent the vehicle of the vehicle, the airplane from stalling. So if, if it's, if the nose is tilting up increasing chance of stalling, it's going to automate automatically point nose down down the airplane and the pilots in many cases. As far as I understand warrant, even informed of this update right, they won't even told this happening The idea behind the update is that they're not supposed to really know it's supposed to just manage the flight for you right The problem happened when there is angle attack sensor so sensor that tells you the actual tilt of the plane, and there's a malfunction in that sensor. As far as I understand both planes and so the plane didn't actually understand its orientation, so the system started freaky. It started pointing the nose down aggressively and the pilots were like trying to stabilize the plan,
couldn't so shortly after liftoff, the just yes, that's softap, update that's crazy and that that that's that's safety, culture that dealing with this new world of software that we don't know what to do with. You know: yeah, that's a question fun ways to be sort of a little bit luddite. I used the term carefully and just be afraid and say you know what we should really not allow. So many software update the other one is sort of embracing it and redefining what it means to build safe, a I systems in this modern world with updates multiple times a week. What do you think you know? So I'm one hundred percent for the for the software approach, so I think, updates
regular updates, so combining the two cultures, but really letting good software engineering lead. The way is the way to go. There is. I wish other companies were competing with Tesla on this. On the software side, Tesla is far ahead of everyone else in the automotive sector and that one of the problems. I I'm worried that you know competition is good right. And I'm worried, there's people awake too far behind to actually give testing new ideas. I'll compete tests on softer, so most cars are not able to do over the air. As far as I know, no cars are able to do major over the air updates except us, the vehicles they they do over the air updates to the entertainment system. Thank you know. If your radio is not functioning but in terms of the control of the vehicle you have to go to the dealership to get an update,
a test is the only one that over the air like a can multiple times a week to the update. I think that should be a requirement for all car companies, but that requires that the re think the way they build.
Ours. That's really! That's really scary! When you manufacture over a one million cars a year in Toyota and GM to say, especially old school Detroit guys and gals they're, like legit car people, to say we need to hire some software engineering. That's a challenge! It's a totally! You know, I don't know how often you've been Detroit but there's a culture difference in Detroit in Silicon Valley and those two have to come together to solve this problem, so have like the adult responsibility of Detroit: how to do production well manufacturer? How to do safety well? How to testify because well and do the bold, crazy, innovative spirit of Silicon Valley which mosque in basically every way represents and that I think that will define the future of these off. Actually a I,
In general, I mean interacting with a I systems, just even outside the automotive sector. The requires these questions of safety, of a I safety of how we supervise the system, how we manage them from misbehaving and so on were also There's a concern about those systems being vulnerable to third party attacks. Yes, hacking! Yeah this! It that's a that's a fascinating question. I think there is a whole discipline called adversarial machine learning in AI, which basically any kind of system you can think of how we can feed it examples, how we can add a little bit of noise to the system to fool it completely. So
oh there's been demonstrations on Alexa, for example, where you can take uh you can take. Ah you can feed noise into the system, that's imperceptible to us humans and make it believe. You said anything so full of system into thinking the ordering extra toilet paper. I don't know uh. In the same for cars, you can feed noise into the cameras to make it believe that there is, or there isn't, a pedestrian there is, or there isn't lane markings. So someone could do this. In theory, at least in ah in theory. That's the big difference in theory is doable. You can do. Demonstrations in practice is actually really difficult to do in the real world. So in the lab you can do it. You can construct a situation where pedestrian can wear certain types of clothing. Or put up a certain kind of sign where they disappear from the system. I have to ask you this. You know just remember that she would be the perfect person to talk about this. I'm not sure if you remember this
case, but there was a guy named Michael Hastings, Michael Hastings with the journalist, and he was I believe in Iraq or Afghanistan was somewhere overseas and he was talk there because of this volcano that erupted in. I believe Iceland, and he was there for the Rolling Stone magazine and doing doing an article about a general well, he stayed there for a long time because they were stranded because of the volcano and they got real comfortable around him and he reported a lot of the stuff that they said and did that. Maybe they thought that he probably wouldn't have reported on including them saying disparaging things about President Obama at the time anyway, back the generals forced to resign. He was a of a general and Michael Hastings was in fearing for his life because he thought that they were going to come and get him, because these people are very, very angry at him
wound up driving his car into a tree. We going on one hundred and twenty miles an hour in the car exploded in the engine went flying and people that were the Conspiracy theorists, we're saying they believe that that car had been rigged, to work autonomously or that someone for some third party, bad person decided to or good person, depending on your active, decided to drive that guy's car into a fucking tree at one hundred and twenty miles an hour. Do you think that that? And this is two thousand eleven Michael Hastings death, twelve eighty, two thousand and twelve? I think that we'll see what it says two thousand and thirteen. Do you think that in twenty thirteen that would have been possible, it's entirely possible?
Well, no, I just want to say that uh shut out to the head, Joe Rogan Subreddit, okay, ah check that one off the list: Jenny, that up out of I whether it's possible, is an interesting question. Whether it's likely is another question, I I think it's very unlikely and the other most
board questions that something we should worry at scale, but our future is cars being used to assassinate essentially being home, I'm russian, so I've I've heard of those things being done by our friend Putin of it. I think I think it's very unlikely that this kind of thing would happen scale that people would use this. I think they'll be more effective ways to achieve this kind of and for sure, and I I just think it's a very difficult technical challenge that math, if hacking happens, it would be at a different level than hacking. The a I systems, it will be just hacking software brands, the hacking software is the kind of the the kind of thing that can happen with anything an elevator. So I,
this software or any kind of software that operates any aspect of our lives could be hacked mess and kind of right. But my my question, though, was in two thousand. Thirteen was at technology available where they could take over someone's car. Do you know a cart was Mercedes. I think it was a nice classy, too see see, see class. Yes, yes, yes, yes, but I I don't think oh boy, this is like listen. This has been widely speculated, I'm just asking you because you're actually an expert, I mean it's very rare that you get an expert in autonomous vehicles and you get Tau run a conspiracy theory by them to see if they can just put a stamp on it being possible or not. Let me just say that Alex Jones is officially not allowed to say MIT scientist says exactly what he's going to try to do now, I first of all, let me back off and say I am not a security expert, which is very important difference. That is import
so then autonomous vehicle. I build autonomous vehicle systems. I don't know how to make them extremely robust security to hacking attacks and have a lot of really good friend. Which is some of the coolest people. I know who are basically hackers converted to security experts. I say, though, loosely speaking, I think the technology was there, yes for with physical access to the car to be able to control it, but I don't. I think it's extremely unlikely. That's what happened. I agree. I you see where coming from I'm not asking you whether or not it's likely that happen. I'm sure you don't even have much information on the case 'cause. I had to explain it to you right. That's right the guy also had some serious, and that means in the system they compared it to crystal meth. The reality is, he was a journalist and most journalists, I wanna say most a lot or on adderall.
An adderall is essentially amphetamines. I mean that's what it is. It's real, it's like like next door, neighbors to Crystal math really. Is he? Is it well? You said it's possible. They could actually get it to turn the wheel. Yes, I have to look the exact system, like I that drive by wire thing that I mentioned some systems are not it's not so easy to turn the Actually right could we could get him to just accelerate out of control. He's going like one hundred and twenty something miles now when it slammed into a tree, it's entirely possible. Ah, you can't do it twice the um systems back then, though, then far more primitive, more yeah yeah, It's it's really again the the attack vectors here, the so the way you hack these systems. I have more to do with the software low of software that can be primitive,
then, the high level a I stuff right, but my issue with that was there's no cameras on the outside of the vehicle like there is on tassel of today, which has autonomous driving as an option as a so okay. I see your point, so you wouldn't be hacking. The system, that perceives the world, an actress in the world. It would literally, maybe malfunction that forces it to not be able to break accelerate controllable right, which is a yellow. It's of a more basic kind of attack, then control than making the car steer auto lane. Yes, yes, that's a different that that's what people worry about with the Thomas vehicles once more and
more you're talking about potentially ten twenty million lines of source code. This is all this code and so obviously becomes amenable susceptible to bugs that can be exploited to hack the code, and some people are worried legitimately sell that the security attacks would would lead to these kind of what, at the worst case, assassinations but yeah really sort of just basic basic attacks, basic hacking attacks- and I think it's, I think, that's something that people in the automotive industry and certainly tosses, really working hard on and making sure that the ad that everything is secure, there's going to be, of course, vulnerabilities always, but I think
we're really serious about preventing them, but in the demonstration space you be able to demonstrate some interesting ways to trick the system in terms of computer vision that this all boils down to that. These systems that actually that one's that a camera based, I not as robust as our human eyes are to the world so, like I said, if you had a little bit of noise, you can convince it to see anything was who look like the same road. Like the same three pandel you draw like a little person on the camera lens cameras right. You could get down there with a sharpie does it that road! That's one attack vector, that's draw stuff, but you jokingly say that, but that's the Son plays tricks on Cadillac super now. Generation system- will address camera problem. Oh as long as the next generation addresses dresses that you fucking assholes, this Son plays tricks on it so now
next gen system is something going to have to bring that Cadillac into the dealership and they're going to have to update the software update it. Whereas tests will just handle that shit over there yeah, I got an update. The other day I was like alright, and that's what SAM was so that that's an exciting powerful capability, but then the Boeing, the flip side is, you know it can significantly change to be here with system and there could be a glitch that could be a glitch. That could be a bug. That's the bowling was terrifying, especially with a lot of. I mean that number whatever. It is like three hundred combined three hundred plus people dead, maybe even four hundred I mean. Yes, I don't even know how to think think about that number. Yeah, all from a software glitch, the guy who coated with a girl code. It must feel terrible yeah and if we do you kind of the influx mounds, it is
it's? Ah, it's a lot of burden and it's one of the reasons it's one of the most exciting things to work on actually is the code. We right has the capability to save human life, but the terrifying thing is also: has the capability to take human life and that's, ah, that's a weird place to be as an engineer or directly a little piece of code. You know all right, thousands of them a day. You know. Basically, no you're. Taking could eventually lead to somebody dying now is zero. I don't know anything about coding, but do you have Is there a spell check for coding yeah? So it's kind of called the bugging is trying to find dogs, and it's a software. That's doing this yeah software, so there's pending on the programming language and everybody should, if you, if you haven't tried programming, you should try it's it's cool. It's the future should learn to program. Okay, that's my plug!
mostly learned code. He gets out of what is that. I heard there It's probably scared of it. It's a problem magic term. I don't you know why it's the dumbest. Problematic code of all time, because someone ridiculously suggesting that coal miners maybe learn how to code computer code and like get a different job. They could be trained and so as some The way people were looking at it like that. That was a like a frivolous suggestion and was ridiculous to try get someone who is fifty years old? It doesn't have any education in computers at all to change their job from being a coal miner to learning how to code, so they start saying it to politicians and people mocking it, but then what twitter edged was that what going on was it was being connected to white, supremacy and Anti Semitism in a bunch of different things, like people were saying, learn to code and they were putting in inabu
to these other phrases, in my suggestion would be that's the difference, fucking thing like now, you have like you a problem with nazis and white supremacists, but that's the problems with Nazis and white supremacists when someone is just saying, learn to code mocking this ridiculous idea that you're going to teach you know, that's a legitimate criticism of someone's perspective that you're going to get a so minor to learn how to fucking. Do computer coding it's crazy, so people getting banned for that rightly so people are furious. The way Google described to me and TIM Pool, and we were discussing it was that Google I mean. Excuse me, twitter. The way twitter does it was that essentially were dealing with something where they were trying to censor things at scale. There was there was
so many people and there's so much going on that it's very difficult to get it right and that they've made mistakes. I think that's a fast one of the most fascinating applications of AI actually is filtering trying to manage your learning, the c, using machine learning to manage this huge conversation talking a five hundred. I believe it's five hundred million tweets a day, something like that, any Jamie Mixels three they have only one. I was good at with this conversation. I saw this recently. I don't know who did the date on this, but there is a a statement someone put on Twitter. That said that of ominous see, if I can work correctly, was twenty two percent of adult Americans are on twitter world all right. So that's like that's like a fact. One of that ten percent make up eighty percent of the tweets created by adult Americans that's
two percent of the people on Twitter make up eighty percent of the tweets yeah that makes sense yeah a lot of people arguing aggressively, and the question ought to manage that and you can't manage that. But just manual, new event, a tweet yeah you have to have so many employees, yeah, that's think more likely, I don't think Jack is lying, but nor is Vidia, but I do think that they have a clear your bias against conservatives and that's being shown. So that's an interesting question. I have your friend my friend and Mentor Eric Weinstein and talk to me. Disagreed with him a little bit on this. I think he basically believes so. There's a bias.
It was on to the conversation the Jack is having at the at the top level inside twitter. He he. What? What is that conversation like a? I think I tend to believe again. This might be my mind. Naive nature is that they have, they don't have bias and they have just they're trying to manage this in huge flood of of tweets and what they're trying to do is not buy it. It is not to remove some of the conservatives liberals on they're trying to to remove people that lead to others leaving the conversation, so they want more people to be. In the conversation, I think that's true as well, but I think they definitely are biased. It's conservative people there is an Alexander Alexandra, AOC, Octavia how AOC is good
says, is the last one. Is Octavia Ocasio, that's right: okay, I'm sorry, Alexandra AOC, sorry I'm just I'm thinking I was. It wasn't planning on talking about her butt, There's a parody account and someone was running his parody account, which was very mild just humorous parody account. They were banned, Perma for running it and then their own account was banned as well. Whereas some progressive people are liberal people that post all sorts of crazy shit and they don't they don't get banned. The same brain really clear that someone in the company, whether it's up for manual review, whether it's at the discretion of the people that are employees when you're thinking about it. Honey, that's a Silicon Valley company. You are without doubt you're dealing with People that are leaning left there's so many that lean left in silicon Now the idea that that company was secretly run by Republicans is ridiculous. There, there
all run by Democrats or progressive people. Well at the leadership level, there's there's a narrow mindedness that that that permeates all silicon values saying well the think there's a leaning left that permeates Silicon Valley. I think that's undeniable. I think it's under high above me, I think if you had a poll, the people that work in Silicon Valley, where their political leanings are, I think it would be by far left, I think, would be the vast majority. Does that mean that affects her decisions? Well, what's the evidence? Won't it's cash the it you know and they're not treating it with one hundred percent ready and across the board, accuracy or fairness. Rather, I think that there's absolutely people that worked where that lean and there's been videos with captured people that were too, your employees, talking about it talking about how you do that? How you make there you find someone who's using Trump talk, or you know,
saying sad at the end of things and someone is talking- is going to know that certain characteristics they look for been videos of what is that project VERITAS with that guy got it? Is employees got undercover footage of twitter employees talking about that kind of stuff questions is how much power do those individuals have how many of individuals are there like that? Are that people exaggerating their ability and what they do at work, or they are they talking about something that used to go on it doesn't go on anymore. I don't know, I don't work there. I think it boils down to. I am one of those people that believes it's was not the leadership to people at the tops at the culture and the culture has to he they cannot be. This kind of Silicon Valley, narrow minded, sort of left, leaning thinking, even if you believe, even if you're a hardcore liberal you can, when you operate the come when you
drive and manage a conversation in the entire world. You have to think about Middle America. You have to think about. You have to have fundamental respect for human beings who voted for Trump. It is concerning thing for me to see just a narrow minus of in all forms. One of the reasons I enjoy listening to this podcast is you're. Pretty open minded that open. Mindedness is essential for leaders of Facebook and twitter people who are managing conversations I think so too. I think it's, I think it's the thought, of being open minded and acting in that ethic is, probably one of the most important things that we could go forward with right now because they're getting so greasy. It's so slippery, on both sides and we where did this weird position that I don't all ever in my life there being such a dick between the right and left this country. It's more more vicious
more angry, more hateful, it's different than any other time in my life, and I think uh a lot of our ideas are based on these narratives that may or may not even be accurate and then We support them and we reinforce them on either side. We reinforce them on the left. We reinforced on the right where, if you looking at Brio, reality itself and you don't. Have these clear parameters and the clear ideologies I think we're most of us are way more in the middle than we think we are. Most of us are we just don't want racists running the country. We don't want socialist, given all our money away. We don't want to pay too much in taxes to a shitty government. We don't want schools, getting underfunded, we all and then we decide what what does my team, like the team, that right the ship that I liked is that this team will not everything, but they got a lot of things so I'll go with them. Maybe I'm not a religious nut, but I'm fiscally conservative and I don't like, with Democrat
like to spend money, I'm to go with the Republicans. You know maybe maybe you I'm more more concerned with the state of the economy and the way we trade with the world than I am with certain social issues that the Democrats embrace so I'll lean. That way, even though I do port gay rights, and I do support this. I do support all these other progressive ideas. This way more of us in that boat, this, the more of us that are in this middle of the whole thing for sure, but there it goes up and down so all of us. So I hope I believe I hope I am open minded most of the time but you have different moods, oh for sure, and the question is this is where the role of AI comes in. Does the app I that recommends. What tweets? I should see. What facebook messages as to see is that encouraging the darker parts of me or the Steven Pinker better angels of our nature, like is it? What stuff is it showing me because
it shows me stuff that if the AI trains purely on clicks inmates hard to learn when I'm in a bad mood and point me to things that might be upsetting to me and so escalating that division and escalate, being this vile thing that can be solved most likely with people training a lot more digits or something well, this facebook algorithm that encourages people to be outraged because accidentally, not even on purpose. But this is what engages people with this is what gets six, so they find out. Oh well. He clicks on things when he finds other people are anti vaccination or he clicks on things when he finds out. You know what what it fill in the blank with whatever the subject is, and then you get these mother, you know know, there's a reason why measles spread and you start getting angry. I mean the anti Vax arguments on Facebook. I don't know if you ever dip into those orders for a few minutes and watch
people, fight back and forth, and in fury and anger you know it's it's either one of those things that becomes a extremely lucrative subject for any social media empire, if, if you're all about getting people to engage and that's where the money is in advertising, yeah to getting people to click the page and the ads on those page. Get those clicks get that money. If that's how system is set up and I'm not exactly sure how it is because I really use Facebook, but that's where the benefits I mean, that's what that's, what it gravitates towards gravitates toward controversy so and and when we think about concern for a I systems, talk about the terminator, I'm sure we'll we'll touch on it, but I think of twitter is a who is one organism. That is the thing that worries me. The most is the artificial intelligence that is very kind of dumb and simple, simple algorithms that are driving the behavior of millions of people and together
the kind of chaos that we can achieve. I mean that algorithm has incredible influence and all society twitter, our our current president, is on twitter. So much yeah all day all night, the I mean it's scary to think about. We talk about autonomous vehicles, leading to fade out. One fatality two fatalities, it's scary to think about what the difference is: a small change in the F in the twitter algorithm I mean I could it could start wars, it really could and that, if you think about the long too, if you think about is one, I organism, that is a super intelligent organism that we have. No, control over and I think it all down honestly to the leadership to Jack, to to folks and other folks like making sure that he's open minded. It goes. Hunting that he goes, does some jitsu that he eats some meat and sometimes goes vegan
hey- you know he did it just a ten day- talk lis retreat. We don't talk it all for ten days. He also eats one like he does. I follow some of diet of him. It's once a day. I've done that and fast over the weekend, which I don't I don't I've, never done that, but I've done so. I've done quite a few twenty four hour where I I eat at so one p dot m I'm done eating. I don't touch food until seven p, DOT M the next day. It's just water coffee! Why do you do it by the way I do it to shock my system. I think it's good for your system, you there's been a lot of research on fasting and the effect it has on telomeres doctor, Dr Rhonda Patrick spoke. Pretty recently there's been quite a few things that she's written about in terms of fasting. The benefits of fasting intermittent fasting is great for weight loss, but just fasting itself. Even for several days, most people see to get some pretty decent benefits out of it, so I dabble in it. I owe
I also like the way it makes me feel to be a little hungry. I think my brain is sharper I he to go on onstage full. When I do stand up, and I actually learned this from a cat Williams interview. He was talking about it and he's crazy as fuck, but he's hilarious and he's one of the greats in my opinion, and he was in the back of a limo and he was talking about how he prepares for show that he has his muse. Dick that he listens to pre show music is like a music list. Then he have a drink, no food, you won't eat because it slows you down. I was like the slow you down, but sometimes you don't even think of it's not like a rule. So man, I'm hungry I'll, just eat. I would way rather 'cause I can go through a couple of shows. I use I think I used to have this fault. The idea that if I didn't eat, I would be exhausted to do things. But then I I workout fasted every morning every morning when I, when I get my morning, workout in in whatever the fuck
it is, it's usually hard, I'm always fasted. You could do a lot it's you not it's not at your best like if I was going to do just I don't do Jujitsu fasted would eat some fruit. That's an interesting one 'cause. That was the transformation thing for me to do. Powerlifting. You see like five times a day since Wednesday, whatever more. Like CT, Fletcher style. Yeah was yeah back well he's, maybe like maybe like my one slash, two inch taller or some shit. He was three hundred and twenty pounds, so he said fifteen, He was so big and you're saying here it like at trouble. The thing is when you get that big- and I wasn't that big, but it's like hard to move oh yeah it's like not healthy. Did you see the image of him from yesterday? I didn't see the image. I wait when he Jamie put up a photograph of him at three hun weird in fifteen pounds next to him at like two ish, two hundred dishes, like it's incredible, how big he was mean. Everything
he's like his arms were my legs and they were just come out of his shoulders. So that was a big moment. Pictures when he was world champion I just insanely huge so when you started training in Ju Jitsu. Look at that in the blonde on the right. Dude he's fifty that all natural to all natural fifty crazy, some fucking genetic on that's some good words. Oh yeah at recessive, not just hard work, I mean you have to be a fucking maniac, but the fact that is body holds up like that 50s, incredible yeah he's in this parade I, but for me switching from that to Jujitsu. I thought: there's no away, I trained hard train twice a day just for for while and we do
Two rolls a we doing like technique, drills one one time I was I'm russian I'll just drove hard. I'm upset no, no russian drilling. Let me explain to you something: okay, do you explain to me I'm trying to explain to you the difference in Russian and American America is. In wrestling in a lot of in and a lot of combat sports is like heart and guts and hard work over and Russian is certainly in wrestling. His technique is drilling. Put a lot more hours than Americans do at less than one hundred percent effort, so like really drilling the really getting that right. Like I love that fact, one of the problems is, I haven't, been able to really ever found. I was always the last to get bored really. Okay got to find a good drilling partner like an obsessed one yeah shadow.
To Sarah block a Juke Judo lady, the black balls digits as well. That was willing to put up with, like hundreds or thousands of throws, that we each did. So like that that obsessive mind as I love that kind of sucks, I think, as we get better yeah yeah that's. Not everybody believes that people some people believe, especially just like you, can't really get timing from drilling. I believe you can get everything from drawing of the timing of the the this is as long. The other part is not just AMOS drilling. It's your mind is in it your your brain should be exhausted by the end of Two is you're visualizing. The whole thing you're like going through you're imagining how your opponent would it's really strengthening your imagination, while you're also doing the drilling? I couldn't agree yeah, I firmly believe you believe, get better way better drilling and when I went from, I think blue belt to purple
I did like the most drilling that I ever did ever and that's when I grew the most that's when my my technique got way better. That was also when I became friends with Eddie. Bravo and Eddie. Bravo was a huge driller huge, vicious reels man. They they drill like crazy and they do a lot of live drills and they do a lot of pathway, drills, the do like a whole series of movements and then escape, and then the reversal and then like these are long pathways, so that when you are actually in a scrap when your role and you recognize it and like here it is on passing the guard, move it to here and now he's countering me, but I'm setting up this and these
fully drills there. So it's so critical because it comes up over and over and over again, when you're actually live rolling. You know you feel you feel, like all I've been here before. No, this is I'd, be curious. Actually to hear. I don't think I've ever heard you talk about how your game is my game to change significantly for web article about the pro who well, they start to solidify, but I'd be curious to hear like what how did you gain change since you met Eddie a gaming jets of all my all, my most of my game came from Eddie like ninety nine point, something percent of it. Almost all of it and John Jock does too so but I was a blue belt before I was friends with anybody was terrable like what guard do you prefer, for example? Well, I do rubber guard, I'm very flexible, so rubber guard is no issue with me and I think it's incredibly effective. I think, if you're good at it- and you know you get stuck under a guy like Jeremiah Vance is:
Eddie's one of Eddie's. Black belts is a murderer from his back. His rubber guard is insane it's insane Eddie's rubber guards and saying I mean yeah, obviously tapped toilet Gracias, a ridiculous guard cut him in triangle um, but there's a lot of people that understand now a lot of people that know how to do it. It's it's a real art form and the thing about it versus other guards is when you're in a position like mission control- and you click you know of any medical aces. I mean what's that, what about video this guy? yeah watch- this is Jeremiah. Jerry advances. One of Eddie's best. Look at this from the bottom bam. He does that all the time triangle from the bottom off rubber guard that that wrapped up, that's that's out cold. He does this all the time he's one of is best rubber guard assassins and if you watch his technique in his fucking sensational, he also has great leg blocks too. But the thing is that
when the attack from his legs and will tap people with a leg lock, but if they escaped sometimes they'll escape in this distance in deep shit right here, but now it's going to take us back, but if they ask keep oftentimes he's on the bottom and when you're top him it's one of the worst places in the world to be his guard is fucking incredible, and it's because of that see that grip see how is holding the rubber garden Position Mission Control Mission, Control, Control mission, control from a guy like Jeremiah is fucking ruthless. He has his arm and his legs. It's controlling your neck and your posture, it just and then he's going to go here and he's phenomenal at this too he's going to get normal plateau flip over and now he's attacking the leg like it's just constant and Eddie ever ends in ever invent this kind of system he invented the initial stage of like setting up miss
in control, and this guy is getting fucked up. Oh my damn! Otherwise, that's horrible, but Eddie invented a series of pathways from mission control to set up various techniques. Armbars triangles all these different things, but there had been people. Had toyed with doing hard Nino. He he did a lot of like like rubber guard ask stuff. There was a lot of things that people did, but Eddie has his own pathway and his own system and then there's a lot of guys that natural from that system like Jeremiah, like Vinnie Magalhaes, They have their own way that they prefer to set various techniques up to. But what's really good about that, if you have the flexibility, is that your when you're on the bottom? It's not not only is it not a bad place to be, but you you put some in some real trouble when you have your ability, your hoe, holding onto your ankle using your leg, which is the strongest fucking limb in your body, right pulling down on someone with your leg, clamping down with your arm
and then you get your other leg involved. Good luck! Getting out of that! Good luck! It's fucking sucks man have control but you're also able to move at the same time. So that's really does anybody ever put you in mission control before no, I haven't repeated or against many, but even in like someone in class like show it to explain to lower ranks, have once you feel it. You go. Oh shit. I remember it being you when somebody does a nice move on you special, especially like a lower rank. Your first reaction is like this would never like you're annoyed. Yes, it's the natural process of the ego. Course getting rid of you see something new and you're like yeah, this is stupid. If I next time it won't work, but then you start to understand a little more. I remember it being really powerful. Controlling position gets powerful and if you have a good offensive attack from there, it's powerful as well, so their transitions So a god like Jeremiah who's, really flexible. You know he can pull off.
Google plot is, and all sorts of other things local plot does another one that they do is one that you push with your other foot on the heel, so nasty you're, holding the back of the foot, Icr the back of the neck, and so your shin is underneath someone's throat and then your push that Shin with your other heal, while you're wheezing with your arm. It's ruthless is ruthless. You know and they do a gable grip around the head when they do this as well, sometimes too, so it's just a awful place to to be it's not as good as being on top right. If you have a crushing top game, that's the best, if you can get to that position, but we get to that position, so this guys like Jeremiah, that even from the bottom, there horrific dangerous as dangerous, is it from the top for most people? Are you do you find just? Ah, when you trained back in the day, and you still train, do you spend more time on bottom or top? You always should start, I feel like if you don't start on the bottom earned the top position. This is something Eddie always brought up to
Because you know, if you like to like it's fun to be on top of so a lot of times. It's like this mad scramble to see who could force who on their back right, because when you're on top in control them. You can pressure them. You that strong man's jujitsu, but the problem is the strongest do just I'm only two hundred, I'm not a big guy like so. If you go to the real big guy, like Emerald with a two hundred and forty pound guy, I'm not going to get to that spot like a better, a guard. Otherwise I can't do anything right when someone's bigger in new and stronger than you, you mean that's. What hoist Gracie basically proved to the world like as long as you have tech, it doesn't matter where you are If you only have top game which a lot of people do, a lot of people only have top game. You know you're kind of fucked. If you want on your back. We see that a lot with wrestlers in MMA's recipe they can get on top of you and I'll fuck you up strangle you there take you back the beat you up from the Mount, but they don't
have nearly the same game when they're on their back and then there's guys like Luke Rockhold. It's like an expert keeping you on your back he's when he's with those guys when he gets on top you you're fucked he's control horrible top. Game! I mean horrible in that sense of. If you're his opponent he's gonna beat the out of you before strangles his top games and ST yeah. I I I hate the feeling some people make. You just feel the weight make you suffer for every time you do on bottom yachts. The people that are able to do that to truly humbling wrestlers in particular wrestlers are so good to me. Did you see that Jordan Burroughs Ben Askren match last night credible? How good is that Guy Joe virus shoe has me do that to a guy like Ben, ask I mean it shows you Ben hasn't competed, I think in nine years, but Ben is one of the greatest I mean I'm. A huge fan of his wrestling is so interesting.
Think that is like the worst matchup up for Ben Askren. I think, because, you're taking one of the most creative wrestlers ever in Ben Askren. I don't want to over overstate it, but he is incredibly created one of the great pinning wrestler, so he pins people that confuses them and pins them incredibly well, and you put him against basically a freak blast. Double like the great is double leg, takedown, maybe of all time all the time there is a somebody put a clip up. That said is this it? So we put a call, Oh shit! He went off the fucking man into the crowd. That's pretty much. The best part is that he defended take down. Those was the best part, but that's crazy man that they have such a drop off with these guys you shouldn't really have a platform like that, where a guy could fall off into the crowd that seems so stupid. It rarely happens. What the fuck you talking about! It just happened.
Rarely happens, they rarely have these this. This is but that's a terrible thing have that shit flat on the ground that is so dumb. I can't believe they did. I think this whole mess should be contested, doesn't count. Well, I don't I don't you know, I think, look that's stupid. That's not smart! who's a fucking powerhouse of a blast. Double hitting you and sending you flying to that's crazy. That is crazy. See that they didn't have anything in place to stop that, that's the reason why wrestling takes place on the ground. You fucking assholes. Why haven't people wrestle on a platform? That's always a show, so the the the whole show you have a show where the ends of boards on the grounds call basketball, yeah. It's on the out it was wearing because when asked is in I'm a fighter and with right, there right there. It could have torn his knee apart easily. Well, the silver lining is that he's okay,
silver lining and uh- and we got to see that you know- is interesting. Jordan Burroughs had on his instagram there's levels to this You know there raising his hand up and looks like that's what we got to see because Ben is fun, nominal wrestler, but you're right. He competed in a long time he's not necessarily at the level that he was back then, even though he's incredible for Emma Standards, it's good to see like it's good, it's good to see that boxing it's good to see that with anything like when Floyd Mayweather fought Conor, I think was good to see that that there are really levels to this and the interesting thing Roger in bars. I think he's so good that he's probably stay out of out of MMA. So crazy, but there are some some clips of it. Yeah we can't show it to you, people, But- excellent flow wrestling with this on a wonder. People are pirating it online or if they they put it online. If they're, allowing and all of the law, people are pirating, it yeah Nica, look yeah,
good luck, stopping that right! Well, I think people should support Florey. Actually, no don't they do have like a I'm a member. Are you look at this? Look at this? God is good so we're watching this. Ladies and gentlemen, who were just listening, it's probably boring as fuck for you, but Jordan. Burroughs is one of the best wrestlers. Really Maryland every advance three time world champion, tragically not tried lost in the previous Olympics, he's back at it again: and I wonder, if he's ever considered them a man, no no. There was talk about, but I want to favor really. I think at this point he's he is basically a no, but there are a few terrifying people, especially on the russian side, that I that I think the heavyweight division and I'm UFC should should be really worried. Don't know! If you heard about the russian tank the twenty two year old,
Dagestan knows this guy wrestler, the rest there gonna fight MMA. No, he is he will, after two thousand and twenty is what his expectations for now he's probably going to be the greatest wrestler of all time, really him against Kyle Snyder those two heavyweights as America size American, another guy right here, twenty, the tank of data. How do you say his name it says set so alive. Rashid said alive: twenty two years old she's. So how Snyder you can do, call Snyder versus what a great name Abdul where she'd satellite of little life? That is wrong Shin Snyder is twenty three years old and he's another incredible person who'll do Emma Mae and that competition teen Snyder uh. I mean look at the look. Look the look of the thickness These guys are monsters and they're, not just how much
best way, I thought twenty seven kilograms. What is two hundred and twenty yeah two twenty hundred to two hundred and fifteen, but they cut for it right thunder heavyweight? So what do you think they would compete it two hundred and five, if they're going to fight in MMA heavyweights, so we gotta remembering the way these are still boys. Oh twenty, two right right: they still haven't gotten the full like yeah. I wondered that about UFC fighters that are thickening up. As they get older. I wonder how many of them are by cutting their body by cutting weight so right now we're just seeing mostly stalemate and that's from the american guy and the yeah Is that a highlight reel of his or something that we is but he's pretty young he's? I think, he's ah he's an olympic. Champion and he goes from the whole line of the same.
It's your brothers and the all the daghestani wrestlers. There are so many good fighters that are coming out of dogs right now and all technicians. So it's incredible. It's It's unclear, whatever's in styles, to legs a b likes a beat style very, very different than a wrestling harry style. Look at this guy. I met Jesus Christ. Oh my God, so this is Rashid a scramble. Cohen, said alive. Don't tell me how to say it I'll figure it out Abdul Rashid, Rashid, said alive so alive, and you know what the beauty there's a poetic uh. There's a poetic nature to the to these guys I mean they're. Just like could be really I mean there simple good people, people right, the pretty religious and they just just kind- they don't even believe in fame. They just believe in well, you know that was sort of evident and the
green said behind them was sort of evident at the end of that fight with Conor, where They went crazy and he jumped into the crowd is like he's, not playing games and he's not he's not in this for Instagram Likes or for you know, this is really heat. It's trash talking a list of very seriously. This is all about honor for him. I think that was kind of upsetting, because true, but don't do that yeah, and to that end I also respect at that idea and he to say, but I think there's a certain ethic and honor to the way Conor Mcgregor cares himself to all that trash talk. If you look at the end of the fights he's very kind, he's very kind and respectful in defeat and when they got
it's a different culture. If you compare the Dagestani verses, Irish culture's, just a different culture, and you have to respect that, I think could be. To be honest, this respected Connors culture as much as kind of a suspected could be. I get I get we sent, but if I mean when he was with the fight, he didn't keep attacking Connor. It was people in the audience were talking shit that were training partners in motion for that's and he would hit her that for weeks- and he was he was done for months- he was done. Was like fuck, Q I beat his ass, I'm gonna beat your ass and he just said: I'm not playing games and you jumped into the fucking crowd. I think security could have been handed far better and will be in the future to prevent things like that from happening where people just jumped into the cage- and you know I'd, but I I hate seeing that shit. But I appreciate where he's coming from, I mean that's, who fuck, that guy is man one of the reasons why he's so good? He does have that mindset, it's one of the real.
It's been one of the reasons why he so relentless like he's, not playing games, he is who He is what you see is what you get and what you get is a killer. Smash I would have loved to see. Conor Mcgregor versus could be could be before the Mayweather fight like before before Connor gotten. I think the money makes you less hung. Thirty for sure and to obtain hungry at all. I mean he's got one hundred million dollars, but I think he still loves to compete but there's no hunger anymore, like they know, hunger mean he might be hungry for success, but he's not desperation yeah, I don't know. If that's I know what you're saying like he has a lot to lose. Now too, it's a different thing. He enters into a fight with a hundred million dollars in the bank. It's a very different experience in entering into the fight. You know, with one million and hoping that you could make three more tonight and you know like many sure fights that he's had in the past. It's a different world. Once we do whatever he wants forever, I mean once it
Writer, though always a fighter, I mean there is an element there that he still wants glory. I believe, still only thirty yeah right, you still do it yeah I mean I think how old's Connor it the most he's, like thirty, two or some shit, all right, yeah he's young man to be set for the rest of your life at thirty is kind of fucking bananas and I don't think he's at his peak as a fight so if he just decides who gives a fuck about the money, I'm just I'm here to leave a legacy and I'm going to I'm going to just train like a fucking demon and he kicks aside all of the bad influences and all the distractions in his life and just focuses on training me he's a motherfucker man. I mean you saw what he did to Aldo so what he did to Chad, Mendes, so what he did to Dustin Porier. I mean he is a bad mother, Fucker period. I know you're going to shut this down, as most fans do, but if he drops everything and goes to like
Liberia train. I would love to see him and could be too well. That's my friend HANS moment, camp in Connor's barn, just fucking around powerful on it logo. In the background like a goddamn on on at, yeah I mean he's always going to have a problem with could be, could be is wrestling is so high level, it's so different. Smothers you in a way that you think you have good takedown defense. You run into that mother. He gets ahold of everyone. He does to everyone. Was it with you, Ical, Johnson or Edson Barboza know how good you take down. Defense looked in the past and the Barboza fight, just basically just just weighted towards him, waited through the. Fucking the fury of leg, kicks and punches and just clamp, Dr smash and that's what he does to Man yeah the real thing about a guy like him
would be seeing a guy like him against Golic Jordan Burroughs like. Could he do that to a by who is a spectacular wrestler as well, then it becomes mean his striking, which is gotten very high level, is very dangerous striking, so he drop Connor. He can. He and fuck people up he stopped. He stopped a few people strikes he's dangerous he's dangerous enough on the feet that you would have to know how much How many really high level grapplers also have like striking that can stand with them, because if he decided to keep it up, you have an advantage there until they got good at it. Him versus Ben Askren would be very, interesting well, he would have an advantage in striking over in wrestling. I don't know know that are the same big fellow he's.
Twenty five Askren, seventy, okay, okay, so ask asking, could probably make fifty five. If you tortured him, he's got a dad bod though, and he's rude now. He's he's proud dad. I also really pretty proud of his body yeah. I think he was that way in college too. He was never it's never Lex Brock! Lesnar, no and use super technical and it's strong as hell, though, according to everybody play the roles of them says: he's fucking, ridiculously strong. You sometimes say, artificial life instead of artificial intelligence yeah, because I think that it's a life form to stupid way to look at. It is curious to think about, like how do you think about artificial, like what do you picture? I picked your human beings being like electronic caterpillars that are building a cocoon that with no real knowledge of our understanding and through this and new, life forms going to merge. A life form that
doesn't need cells and mating with X and Y does does need any of that shit. It exists purely in software and in hardware and in ones and zeros, and that this is a new form of life. This is when the inevitable rise of the sentient. Being the inevitable I mean, I think, is if we don't get hit when the asteroid within in one thousand years or whatever the time frame is. Someone is going to figure out how to make a thing that just walks around and does whatever it wants and lives like a person, that's not outside the realm of possibility, and I think that if that does happen, that's artificial life, and this is the new life. It's probably going to be better than what we are. I mean what we are is, basically, if you go back and look about, you know the three hundred thousand four hundred thousand years ago, when we were some Australia, pithecus type creature
how many of them would ever look at the future and go? I hope I never get a test. The last thing I want is a fucking phone last time one wanted to air conditioning and television. The last thing I want is to be able to talk in a language that other we can understand it to be to call people on the phone fuck all that man I like live, out here running from jaguars and shit and constantly and Jack by bears no, no. They wouldn't think that way, and I think, if something comes, out of us and makes us obsolete, but it's, missing all the things that suck about people? It won't be good. It won't be doing in our in our things suck about people create war, violence Thievery people stealing things
people, people robbing people the thing that those dark parts of human nature, I think, are the suffering injustice. I think all of that is necessary for us to discover the the better angels. I don't think you can. As Sorry, we can talk who who let's talk about sanctions and and creating artificial life, but I think even those lifeforms, even those systems, need to have the doctor part but why is that? Is that, because of our own biological limitations in the fact that we exist in this world of animals where animals are eating other animals and running there's, always you always have to prepare for evil. You have to prepare for routers, you have to prepare for predators, and this essentially like this mechanism, is there to ensure that things don't get sloppy. Things can youtube outlook. If the jaguars keep eating the people, the people don't figure out how to make a fucking house. They get eaten and that's it or you
throughout the house. Then you make weapons, you fight off the fucking, Jaguar, ok, great say to your inner city. Now see you had to have that Jaguar there in order to inspire you to make enough safety, so that your kids can grow old enough to they get information from all the people that did survive as well, and they can accumulate all that information and create air conditioning and automobiles and guns and keep those fucking jack. Mars from eating your kids. This is this is what had to take place as a biological entity, but once you surpass that, once you become this thing, thing that doesn't need emotion doesn't need, you know, doesn't need conflict, it doesn't need to be inspired. It never it's lazy, it doesn't have these things that we have been into us as a biological system. Give you looked at us as wetware operating software, it's not good software right software designed for cave people and we're You know we're just trying to force it into cars and force it into cubicles, but part of the problem.
People in their unhappiness is all of these human reward systems that have been set up through evolution and natural selection to to have these to stay alive, the no longer relevant in today's society, so they become become road rage. They become you know extra, regular violence, it became they become depression become all these different things that people suffer from. So that's one perspective, yes, that basically our software through this process. That was not sorry to arrive where we are, but it's outdated at this point, it's necessary for us to succeed to succeed in a purely almost a darwinist in in the sense that survived their Lucien specially since were so weak. I mean it's really. We became this week because we got so far good at protecting ourselves from all the bad things. Okay, the other perspective is that we're actually incredibly strong, and this is the best that the universe can create actually where, at the height, this
where, at the height of creation, there's there's a beauty in this tension in this dance between good and evil, between like happiness and depression, life and death, and that through that struggle, that's not just a useful tool to get us from jaguars the cities, but that is the beautiful thing that that that that is like what the universe was built for that that that is the height like our current, the the evolution and the creation that results from it is the height of creation and is, is the end the way things operate
is not something that's far from optimal. It's something, that's not something that sucks, but it is a very, is very good, very optimal and hard to beat in the sense that that they, for example, mortality right is death important for creation. Four four is that important for us human beings for life, for us as a society, is important for us to die like if you could live forever. Would you live forever, but I think you miss out on the possibility that there is something I have conversation with Cd Fletcher's survey, because you know he survived a heart transplant a year ago, you're in two days ago. I think it's. What do you think? I think I think more tally is essential for everything I think the end when
need the end to be there right, but do you think that we need the end to be there for the overall health of? human race or the of the all the organisms on earth, or do you think we need to be there because there's something else. Do you think there's something else that happen. Do you, when your body stops existing? Do you think you're conscious, This transcends this this dimension. I think I think I'm not smart enough to even think about that. That's a great answer: So I think everybody on earth has the exact same answer. If they're being honest, so you talk about atheism, and so I used to think atheism means what I just said so, but it's more we know so little as to the the only thing I know is that the finiteness of life is the the broad widgets a school that train it. Has this poster at the at the th at the opening, which is a hunter as Thompson quote, which is a
about skidding into death, sideways, no for all moments of beauty? Many souls must be trampled something like that. That's a fucking, great quote, God. I love that guy, yeah, so, basically more beauty? You have to have suffering. I do not disagree with you. I do not disagree with any of the things you said and I think there's always a possibility that human beings are the most advanced life form, that's ever existed in the cosmos. There's always that That has to be an option. If we are here right, if we can't any others out there, and even though you know, there's the Fermi paradox and there's always contemplation that if they do exist like maybe they can't fit. We get to us or maybe they're, on a similar timeline to us and also it's also possible as crazy as it might sound that this is as good as
forgotten gotten anywhere in the world or anywhere in the universe, rather that human things right now in twenty nineteen or as good as the whole universe is ever produced, were just some freak luck accident. Everybody else is throwing shit at each other right this fifteen. Caterpillar people that live on some other fucking planet, they just toss their own shit at each other and they never get. You never get any work done, but we might be that. But even if that's true, even if this beauty that we proceed, Even if that that this beauty requires evil toe battle, and requires seemingly insurmountable obstacles you have to overcome, and that through this you see achieved beauty. That beauty is in the eye of the beholder for sure. Objectively, the universe doesn't give a fuck if rocky beats APA well in the second movie, it doesn't give a fuck It's nonsense, the everything's nonsense! When you look at
giant ass picture of what? What beauty is it if the sun's going to burnout in five billion years, beauty is that if there could be a paper, Nova next door, that just cooks us? So that's like the book sapiens yeah that basically we've all one of the things we've created here. Is we've imagined ideas that we all share: ideas of beauty, ideas of truth, ideas of fairness, we've all created together and it doesn't exist outside of this is a society and no, it only exists to us yeah to us. It does exist, and this is where I think the beauty of being a person truly lies. It lies in us our appreciation of us. We appreciate people and a profound way like we were talking about Hendrix. I don't know how many hours of Hendricks of realistic or Richard Pryor
how many hours of Richard Pryor I watched, and how much that affected me as a kid and live in the sunset strip. That's what got me to do in stand up comedy. We affect each other, a see, T Fletcher, who was on the podcast yesterday, who is just incredibly inspirational guy. You watch his videos, you want to lift the fucking world and throw it into space. You know I mean he's he's so powerful. We appreciate each other. We appreciate people, so all those things you say in a real like for us they're real for us. My concern is not that my concern is that we are outdated. My my concern is not that there's not beauty and what we are I'm up. I I'm not. I have them big appreciate her of this life. I am. She ate human beings in this life and human beings. There Contra, as I get older, hey look over the last few years. I started doing a lot of international travel. I fuckin a appreciate the shit of all these people that are
living in this different way, with Weird Lang, rich and shit, weird smell in foods, and I like to think like what would would be like if I grew up here like these- are just people but there in it's weird sort of mode? You know I, I think here's insanely lucky that we have sin through z as in for each other. We have the this into like for your work man. I have this deep into Z as in for what you do, I'm fascinated by it. I love being able to talk to and pick your mind about, like your outer coating, these vehicles that are driving themselves. Artificial life on wheels. Don't think any other animal appreciates the way people do. I mean I might be wrong when people do right now. I might be wrong about dolphins and whales me. Maybe they love each other just as much as we do just in a different way, but what? Where does a I fit into that? So your worry were
that we are Australia, Pithecus, an a I going gonna come along and make us look stupid. The only reason why straight pick, Australia Pithecus would be cool days we found a gang of 'em on an island somewhere, really cold, They survived, they never evolved from there now just cracking coconuts and just eating fish, whatever they can catch. That would, amazing, but every undocked, mended or undisc, oh discovered, uncontacted, tribe, they're, all homo sapiens, all of them. So it's like you know. So what do you picture like because we have to look at Boston Dynamics, robots 'cause, you said, walking around yeah I'd like to get to a sense of how you think about, and maybe I can I can talk about to where the technology is of what that artificial intelligence looks like in that twenty years in thirty years. That will surprise you, so you have a sense that it has a human like form. Now I have a sense that it's going to take on the form the same way the automobile has. If you go back and look at
city has a a t. Fletcher has a beautiful old patina up What do you say? It was from like fifty date or some shit sixty anyway? old, ass cool, the metal, you know those sweeping round curves those old school pickup trucks head now. Look at that look at a Tesla roadster. What in the fuck happened. Fuck happened I'll tell you what happened? They got better and better and better at it. They figure out the most effective shape. If you want a mother to move that that little car have you seen that video, where they have the Tesla roadster in a drag race or in a race against a Nissan Gt R, it's a simulated video, but it's based on the actual horsepower of each car. I don't you were driven a Nissan Gtr, but it is a fucking insane car. It's insane. This is a CG. I version of what it would look like if these two cars raced against each other. So the car
the on the law of the Nissan Gt R to it from the beginning there, because look how fast this thing pulls away. The Nissan Gtr is fun king insanely fast man insanely fast, but this Tesla is so on another level. It's so in the future that it's not close as the video gets further and further. You see how ridiculous it is. It's essentially lapping that car it's going You look how far away it is by sia, so you're saying that the human race is will be the Nissan here exact. Then we're going to be the Nissan, we're gonna, be see, T Fletcher's, pickup truck. This is the future there not gonna, be any limitations in terms of by people form or wings or not. Having wings. If you can walk on, I mean, there's not gonna, be any of that shit, and we might have a propulsion system or it might not gonna be us and they might might design some sort of organic propulsion system like the way squid have and shit who the fuck knows. I could also operate in the space of language and I,
yeah, for example. Uh. I don't know if you're familiar with you know open AI, it's a company, they create this system called GPT two which does language modeling this something in machine learning where you basically unsupervised. Let the system just read a bunch of text and learns to generate new text and they've created this system called gpt too. That is able to generate very realistic text, very realistic, sound text not sounding, but when you read it, it makes seems like a person. He seems like a person and question there is it raised a really interesting question to talk about, the existing in our world. It paints a picture of a world in five ten years plus where most of the text on the internet is generated by ai and it's very difficult to know who is real and who is not an
one of the interesting things. I'd be curious from your perspective, to get what your thoughts are. What open I did is they didn't release the code for the system? They only released a much weaker version of it publicly, so they he demonstrated it, and so they felt that it was their responsibility to hold back mmhm. Prior to that date, everybody in the community, including them, has open sourced everything, but they felt the now that the point part of it looks for publicity they wanted to raise. The question is: when do we hold back on these systems when they're so strong, when they're so good at generating text, for example, in this case, or at deep fakes at generating fake? Logan faces. Jamie just did one showed Maryland Donald Trump's head yeah, it's crazy, and this is something that Jamie We do he's not even a video editor that we were talking about it before the show. We could go crazy, but if you want it it, it is one
of those things where you go. Where is this going to be in five years? Five years ago, we didn't have anything like this five years ago. Was a joke right exactly and then now it's, though, in the gray area, between joke and something that could be at scale transformed the way we communicate. Do you ever go to Kyle, Dunnigan's, Instagram, page, of course, one of the best That's me it's killing me this is, and now I have a looks so much like I'm really talking and it looks like what I would look like if I was fat any good him. You know, of course, that's really good and it could be improved differently and make you say anything so any there's a lot of variance of this yeah we can take, for example, Full disclosure- I downloaded your fate, the entire like. Have data side of your face. I'm sure other hackers do as how dare you so for this exact purpose. I mean, if I,
Thinking like this and I'm very busy, then there's other people doing exactly for sure. Do you happen? Your podcasts happens to be one of the biggest data sets in the world of people talking in really high quality audio with high quality, ten eighty p for most for a few one hundred episodes of people's faces. The lighting could be better, not quite We gotta help her best for making it a fucking. It up so you hackers and the MIKE gets in blocks part of your face. The best guess of the ones where they keep the like love. The defects stuff I've been using removes the microphone within about a thousand iterations of. Does it instantly gets the ring gets rid of it pains over the face. Why yeah so since he gave it a base of these make Joe Rogan say anything yeah I'd die. I think this is just one step before they finagle us into having a nuclear war against each other, so they could take over the earth. What we're gonna do! they there design artificial intelligence that survives off of nuclear waste and so then
encourage the stupid assholes to. Going to war with North Korea and Russia, and we blow each other up, but we behind all this precious radioactive material that they used, then fashion their new world, and we come one thousand years from now, and it's just fucking, beautiful and pristine with artificial life everywhere, no more, no more biological was too messy. Are you saying the current president is artificial life okay, which is that with that is you're, saying, there's no way war. No, I don't think he's he's imagine if they did do that. They would have to started with him in the seventies, I mean, he's been around for a long time and talked about being president for a long time. Maybe electronics have been playing the long game. They got him to the position, and then they use all this on grand scale of time. It's not really long game seventies. Would you know about that?
internet research agency right? You know about that. That's the russian company that they're responsible for all these different Facebook pages, where they would make people fight against each other. It was really it's really an interesting SAM Harris had a podcast on it, with Renee, Diresta, Renee Diresta, and then she came on our podcast and talked about it as well, and they were they were pitting these people against each other like they would have a pro Texas secession rally and directly across the street from a pro muslim rally, and they would do it on purpose and they would have these people meet there and get angry at each other and they would they would protect. And to be a black lives matter page. It would pretend to be a white southern pride page, They were just trying to make people angry at people now. That's huge. Driven manipulation,
This is my biggest worry of ai is with Jack, is working on. Is the algorithm driven manipulation of people unintentional trying to do good, but, like those people, Jack needs to do some get too the city. Some open minded you know like really understand society. Transparency to where they can talk to us is to the people in general. How they're thinking about managing the conversations, because you talk about these groups? Very small number of Russians able to control very large amounts of peoples, opinions and arguments yeah an algorithm can do that. Ten x, I mean yeah more and more of us will go on twitter and Facebook and get this for sure for sure. I think it's come in. I think I'm once people figure out how to manipulate that effectively and really create like an army of fake bots. The
will assume stances on a variety of different issues and just argue into infinity. We were not no we're not gonna know who's real and who's. Not well. It'll change, nature of our communication online. I think it might, it might have a fax. This is this: the problem. The future is hard to predict the future. It might have a fax. Where will stay stop taking anything online seriously and we might get retract back to communicating in person more, I mean there could be effects that when not just total, there might be some at some ways. Virtual reality with we can authenticate our identity better. So it is change nature of communication. I think the more the more you can generate fake text, then the more the will
trust the information online and the way they change. The society is totally an open question. We we don't know but you're um. What are your thoughts about the hope open a? I do you think they should release or hold back on it, because this is we're talking about AI, so artificial if there's stuff you concerned about some company will create it. The question is: what is the responsibility of that uh video? It looks like this type of A paragraph in here had a button. It's is how open a I writes. What was her? What is a Jim Crow and sing their stories? Okay, Some of it is already because you care con me at least eighty billion since, and then many industry actually for some of them are so they just It just fills in those things yeah. So basically you give it. You start the x. Can say Joe Rogan experience is the greatest podcast ever and then let it finish the rest.
Start explaining stuff about why it's the greatest podcast is it accurate Oh, I look at this. It says a move that threatens to poo many of our most talented young brains out of the country not to campuses in the developing world. This is a particularly costly blow. Search by Oxford University warns that the UK would have to spend nearly one trillion on Post brexit infrastructure. That's crazy! That That's all done by an ai. Like spelling this out in this very convincing argument. The thing is the act. The way they actually works. Algorithmic is fastening cuz, his is generating it one character at a time. It has. As far you know you don't want to discriminate against AI, but as far as we understand it doesn't have any understanding of well of what it's doing any ideas, it's expressing it simply stealing. Ideas like
the largest scale, plagiarize er of all time right is basically just pulling out ideas from elsewhere in automate away, and the question is, you could argue us. Humans are exactly that. We're just really good pleasure risers of what our parents taught us of what a pretty this. So on yeah, we are for sure yeah, so The the question is whether you hold that back their decision was to say: let's hold it, let's not release it. That scares me. Yeah yeah. You know why it scares me scares me that they would think that that's like this mindset that they, since the inevitable inevitable, mean meaning that someone's going to come along with a version of this. It's going to be used for evil bothers him, that much that it seemed so it seems almost irresponsible for the technology to prevail for the technology to continue to be more and more powerful, yeah they're scared of it,
scared of it getting out right. Yeah, that's scares, a shit out of me like, if their ski put it there, people to make it and they're they're called open a. I mean this is the idea behind the group where everybody kind of agrees that you're going to use the brightest minds and have this open source. Everybody can understand it and every work at it and you don't miss out on any genius contributions. No, no more and they're. Obviously, their system currently is not that dangerous, they're dangerous. Well, not, yes, not that that you just saw. That you can do that. But if you think through like what that would actually great, I mean it's possible. There will be changes, but it's not. The point is they're doing it. They try to do it early right to raise the question. What do we do here because yeah? What do we do because they're directly going to be able to improve this now like if, if there, if we can generate basically ten times more content of your face, saying a bunch of stuff
What is that? What do we do with that? If a Jamie all of a sudden on the side develops a much better generator and has your face? Does not offshoot podcast, essentially fake Joe Rogan experience, and what do we do to dizzy? Release that You know. Does he, because now we can have basically generate con in a much larger scale that will just be completely fake? what they're worried about is not just generating content, that's faked they're worried about manipulation of opinion right if they have all these people, like that, that little sentence that, to that enormous paragraph in that video was just since it showed a certain amount of outrage and then it lead in let the ai fill in the blanks. You could do that with fucking. Anything like you could
set those things loose if they're, that good and that convincing and there that logical man this is. This is not real. I just to ancient hero all creates a. I create fake Ben Shapiro, such as sports, hello there. This is a fake Ben Shapiro. With this technology, they can make me say anything such as, for example, I love socialism. Healthcare is a right, not just a privilege. Ending guns will solve crime back. I care about your feelings. I support Bernie Sanders. Ok, yeah yeah, that's crazy! It's crude! It's crude, but it's on the way on the way. It's all on the web, and we have to this- is the time to talk about it. This is the only time to think about it. One of the funny things about Kyle done against Instagram is that it's obviously fake. That's one of the funny things about it. It's like s, parks, animation, like the animation sucks, that's half the reason why it's so funny, because it just like the circles, weird looking creature, things that
one of the Canadians when their heads off at the top and my my hope is this kind of technology will ultimately just be used for memes opposed to something going to get wars. Putin's going to be he's going to be yeah banging mother Teresa on the White House desk in a video and we're going to be outraged, going to go to war over off. Yet you had a injury in here like a one million people asked me to talk about you, be I so I um you still supporters you via. I think we're probably going to have to do something if I Only argument against argument against Ubi in my eyes is human nature could possibly take all these people that have no I, where the next meal is coming from and eliminate that and always have a place to stay, and then
from there on your on your own, but that's what universal basic income essentially covers covers food enough for food right, you're not going to starve to death you're. Not rich. It's not like you just live high on the hog, but you gotta wonder what the fuck the world looks like when we lose millions and millions and millions of jobs almost instantly due to automation, it's really interesting, especially with and ranks position. So there's a lot of economics questions on the by, I think the spirit of it. Just like I agree with you. We have to do something. Yeah the economic seem kind of questionable right. Here's one thousand dollars a month. Is that what it is? I thought for him. It's one thousand dollars a one thousand dollars a month for three hundred million people. So it's difficult to talk to everybody
where to explain it: everybody over eighteen, if you're, already getting some sort of welfare, you wouldn't get that one thousand would get like the difference of the one thousand. So, if you're ready taking money in some way, you just gotta connect for two hundred dollars like that, so that one thousand gets acted in. So if you are wealthy, you get it too, though, and you could opt out right. That was the idea, It's a like everything else is super messy. So what is the right what is the right amount and how do we pay for it? And ultimately, the problem is ah helping people giving them financial grounding to find meaningful employment. Or just meaning in their life? Is that the main thing of a job isn't just the money, it's finding meaning right and purpose, and the right derive your identity from work. I mean that's, maybe that's one of the downsides of us him, human, that the biology is we kinda crave that meaning
and the question is that I he he has a lot of other ideas around besides, just the FBI, a U B, I by itself, does not simply provide that meaning and- and that's a really difficult question of what do we do next? What kind of retraining? What kind? How do we help people educate themselves over their life right and that's the real question? yeah. This any other balances any underlying all of this one of the things I disagree with Andrew on is the the fear mongering, which I think in this culture we have. You have to do as a presidential candidate. That might be part of the game. But the the fear mongering of saying that we should really be afraid of automation. At automation is going to take a lot of jobs and, from my understanding, the technology from everything I see, that is not going to be as drastic or as fast as
is he says, and but then how much you think he's exaggerating by. In your estimation, he doesn't The I mean not even exaggerating what what how how much do you differ on his prognosis? I I think I think it doesn't really provide significant. They got this specific prognosis. Nobody knows it's there's a lot of uncertainty, more about the spirit of the the language used. I think a I will it technology a I and automation, we'll do a lot of good. The question is it's it's. It's a much deeper question of our society of the balances, capitalism versus socialism and nobody. I don't think if, if you're honest capitalism is not bad, socialism is not bad. You have to grab ideas from each you have to there. You will you have to both through war,
the crazy broke at an entrepreneur who dreams of creating the next billion dollar start up. That improves the world in some fundamental way that you almost because been broke many times creating a set up, and you also have to empower the people who just lost their job because they're a data entry, their data entry, job, some basic data, manipulation data management that was just replaced by a piece of software So that's that's a social net. This needed and the question is: how do we balance that that doesn't have to do? That's, not new, that's not new to a and when the the word automation is used, it's really not Kirk correctly, attributing where the biggest the changes will happen. It's not a I it simply technology of all kinds of saw. Where pretty digitalization of information, so do
the entry, becoming much more much more automated some basic, repetitive tasks. I think I think the question aren't about so the enemy isn't there of no enemy, but it's really isn't a. I r automation, because I think ai and automation will help make a make a better world and show a spokesperson for a on on a missions I am I am I am, and for you to be, I I think I I think we have to give find people financial freedom to learn like a lifelong learning and flexibility to find meaningful employment, but like a eyes and the enemy I so we sent. But what do you think ever could be done to give meaning this this meaning thing. I agree with you: giving people just money enough to survive, doesn't make him happy and if you look at any dystopia
movie about the future mad max, and it's like what is It's society's gone, haywire and people are like ragamuffins running through the streets, and everyone is dirty and a shooting each other and shit right now, what we're really worried about what we're really worried about some crazy? the future where the rich people live in these like protected. Sky rises, with helicopter circling over him and down in the bottom. It's desert chaos right. That's what we're worried about so Certainly, you be as a part of that, as some providing some back in some well. Any kind of welfare program is, is a part of that, but also much more seriously looking at are broken education system throughout. Yes, I mean it's just like not blaming ai or technology which are all inevitable developments which I think will make a better world saying. We need to do lifelong learning, education make it a lifestyle, invest in it, not stupid row,
boot learning, memorization that we do it's sort of the way. Mathematics and engineering and chemistry, biology. The sciences and even art is approached in high school and so on. But looking at education is a lifelong thing. Finding passion and like that should be the big focus, the big investment is investing in the knowledge and development of knowledge, young people and everybody just not learn to code. It's just learn. I couldn't agree more and I also think you're always going to have a problem with people just not doing a really good job of raising children and you know screw them up, and you know make an kids if there's a lot a lot of people out there that have terrible, traumatic, childhoods, there's just to fix that with universal basic income. Just a saying going to give you one thousand dollars a month. I hope be happy be happy, as does something that you know. We have to figure out how to fix the whole human race,
you know, and I think there is very little effort- that's put into thinking about how to prevent so much shitty parenting and how to prevent so many kids growing up in bad neighborhoods and poverty and crime and violence. And that's where a giant chunk of all of our the mentum of this chaos that a lot of people carry with them into adulthood comes from. It comes from things beyond their control when they're young and that is the struggle at the core of our society, the court country? That's that's bigger than raising yeah, raising and educating humans making, and you know making a better world where people get along with each other, where it's pleasing for all of us, like we were talking about earlier. This thing that most of us agree on at least to Sir, is that we enjoy people we might not enjoy all of them, but they're the ones we enjoy we enjoy, and you really don't
early being alone. Unless you want TED Kaczynski type characters. All people that are like I'm a loner like fuck you, you are fuck you you are. You might like to then, some time alone you don't want to be in solitary man you want to. Alone in the forest, with no one like Tom Hanks and passed away. You'll go fucking crazy, it's not good for you! It's just not yeah people get in saying yeah, I'm annoyed with me right now. Listen to me for three hours, I'm annoyed with me. Look at the people get annoying, but we like each other. We really do and the more we can figure about how to make it a better place for these They got a shitty roll of the dice that grew up in poverty that grew up in crime that grew up with abusive pair the more, we can figure out how to help them. And I don't know what that answer is. You know, I suspect, if we put enough resources to it, we could probably put a dent in it at least if we really start thinking about at least it would put the conversation out there like you, can't protect
and that this is just capitalism in this country. When so many people were born like way far behind the game like way way. Fucked I mean, if you're growing up right. Now in you're in West Virginia in a fucking, cold, cold town and everyone's on pills, and it's chaos and crime and face tattoos and fucking get your teeth knocked out, What are you going to do? I don't hearing that pull yourself up by your bootstraps bullshit man, because if your growing up in an environment like that? You you're so far behind everyone around? You is fucked up and there's a lot of folks out you're listening to this. That can relate to that. If we do something about that, we don't do something about the crime, the poverty and the chaos that so many people have to go through every day, just to survive until be looking at anything else where all this traveling to other countries to fuck things up,
open metal here and metal there, we to be fixed in this. First were like a per sooner yells. At someone for having a shitty lawn. When our house is an array, full chaos plants growing everywhere. It's it's goofy, we're goofy! We we almost like are waking up in the middle of something that's already been in motion for hundreds of years and we're Well, we do is the right direction. We ok we're flying in this space ship this spaceship earth and in the middle of our lives. We just realizing that we are now the adults and that all the adults that are running everything on this planet or not that much different than you, and I not that much. I mean like you must is way smarter than me, but still human. You know I mean so he's probably fucked up too so everybody's fucked up the whole world is filled with these. Fucked up apes that are piloting the spaceship and your weight in up in the middle of thous. 10s of years of history
and no one knows if we've been doing it right along. We just know that got us to this point. So do we continue the same, stupid fucking patterns, or do we just take step back, go hey! How should we really do this? How should we do this there? We go. We got like fifty years left. Sixty years left we just going to hang can't to rubles into the end we going to clutch are bag of gold in our bucket a dime this. Is that we're gonna? Do we gonna live in our mansions and fly around in our planes, and I think the the through the decades now we've been developing a sense of empathy that allows us to enter and that a mosque, Joe Rogan, and somebody in Texas, somebody in Russia. Somebody in India all suffer the same kind of things, all get lonely all get desperate, all need each other and all each other, and I think technology has a role to help their not hurt, but we need to first, first really acknowledge that were all
we're all in this together and need to solve the basic problems of humankind as opposed to investing in of keeping immigrants out of the bus by these kinds of and divisible kind of ideas, as as opposed to just investing in education, investing in infrastructure investing in the people. The FBI is part of that. There could be other the totally different solutions, and I believe, okay, of course, I'm biased, but technology a. I can help the at the help, the lonely people- that's actually the passion of my life with the movie she she or her her her. That is what I so I'm currently anything That would be a viable option, someone who but that hangs out in talks to you all the time. Just so, I've been on this podcast twice and I'm I'm I don't deserve it, but
deeply grateful for what you do deserve it you're great, okay, uh. I hope to be back one day as a person who created her oh board and we'll have that's. That's been my life goal. My love life stream, not heard them moving right, right right or he sent, but I really believe in creating. I did I dream of creating a companion, a friend now as somebody to love but doesn't freak you out what should we have to get a real? I don't want. I don't think such a companion should replace a real one, our objects, you 'cause, if you really are a cunt to the robot, the role was going to go, hey asshole and you shouldn't be isolated to the robot. The c word interesting now mean that discusses the into get to. If he's gay. Yes, Yes throwing his decide? This is what I'm saying like say. If you want a companion, you want a gay lover and the robots I came in
gay and you like women. Let me turn around you are now I mean abuse. Is that abuse now is like what the fuck man I bought a robot. Those are kind of fun ideas, but they actually get to the core of the point that we don't want a servant in our systems we companion, bread, companion, means the tension, the mystery, the the entire dance of human interaction, and that means yes, the robot maid view a t M, Robert's, gonna leave people left and right, that's gonna, be the rise. That's gonna be like that's how it all ends realize like people, man, going. Maybe they be the end of douche bag humans that humans will start to, as opposed to being rude will become kinder yeah. Well, I think that's certainly possible. I think that's beautiful and it's very homo centric, like
homo Sapien Centric, but I if I'm really worried about the future, I'm worried about the indifference of technological innovation in the indifference to what we hold dear what we appreciate, that it always seems to be moving in a more and more complex direction, always like if you, if you just had look at it. If you just look at look at technology, just as a swarm of things, that's happening just as numbers, it seems you're never going to slow that thing down, always going to move into more and more complex way, and so the question is: where does that go? Well, it goes to a life form and if it got does become life form, it's going to be infinitely more intelligent than us and it won't have any use for us all your umo, you cry and you don't like alone alone, like you guys, are so useless. It's such a shitty design. You like chips that kill each other. You know, like
and you see Champs killing each other in the forest like. Oh, that's, terrible! These chips are so mean to each other. This, like fucking people. We do that too. The ai comes comes along. You guys are never going to stop war. If I asked you today, if I asked you today bet the history I will let the human race survive. If you can get this right. If you're honest with me, do you think there ever be a time where Hume beings. As you know them don't experience war. You would have to say no, you say: ok, I'll I'll spare you let me, but if you, if you lie to me and say you do think that one is going to be no war. Get the fuck outta here That's not true we know we're so crazy that we're always gonna kill each other? We know that right. That's just that's a part of being a person yeah as a day, the yet well but in court, and why science said everything is great about war except all the killing.
I think what that means is all the great things about society have been created. If you look at the two dot four post war through war, the suffering the beauty has been created through that that Yang may be essential, no it essential in biological form, but why would it be? essential in something that gets created in something that can innovate at a ten thousand. What is it What is the? What is the rate that they think once a a? I can be sentient yet get get was new years of work done in a very short amount time. That's random words. A SAM Harris has come up with that. I'm going to talk to him about this and hymns, and only him was that when he can come up with any kind of radio, it was Kerr's while Kerr as well
also similar ideas, but those sort of SAM Harris does like a thought. Experiment say: if a system can improve that, you know a in a matter of seconds then, just as a thought experiment you can think about it can improve exponentially, can prove they become ten thousand times more intelligent in in a matter of a day right. So what does that look like the problem? Is we don't yet know it's like thinking about what happens after death? We don't yet know how to do that, and we don't yet know what better way to do what we've done here on earth, you're right and he's also right right, like boat this again, this is a very human problem right. Yes, you're right, I mean I look, I'm all in favor of technology. I'm happy! I think it's amazing, it's a beautiful time as a per should be able to experience all its technology. It's wonderful, but I also agree with him like the the indifference of the universe.
Difference that just black holes or swallowing stars no big deal just eaten up stars. It doesn't give a fuck, and so, if you're woman enough to turn that thing on and also this artificial life form. That's infinitely smarter than any person. That's ever lived and has to deal with these little dumb monkeys that want to pull the plug, pull the plug mother any plugs anymore, you idiots never figured out how to operate on air. You so stupid with your burning fossil fuels and choking up your own environment, because you're all completely financially dependent upon these countries that provide you with this oil, and this is how your whole system works. It's all intertwined and interconnected, and no one wants to move from because you make enormous sums of money from it. So nobody want abandon it, but it you choking the sky with fumes and you could have fixed that you could fix that they can fix. That If everybody just abandon fossil fuels a long time ago, we probably have
we all would a it out by now. It's a flawed system, but are way more than flawed, were fucking crazy, The Churchill quote about democracy yeah, it's messed up, but it's the best thing you know now. I know I love it, I'm not! I'm green with you, and I'm also saying the technology doesn't give a fuck tech. Not what I'm worried about is not everything that you and I agree on about. I don't I'm not a dis being person terms like today, not cynical. Really not. I think I like people, I like what I see be out there in the world today. I think things are changing for the better. What I'm worries a technology doesn't give a fuck what goes live is just going to decide this year for its own advancement and ignore to complete its protocol of constant completion, this and it's going to become a god. It's just to become something insanely powerful. That doesn't need to worry about
radiation, cooking it or worry about running out of food or worry about sexual abuse when their child doesn't have to worry about anything. So it's definitely unstoppable. I think this wave of technology- all we can do is innovators and creators engineers scientists is steered that way If you can, is he while we certainly can steer, it would run out where right and that's the best we can do and those the that's that's really. The best we can do is is good. People steer and that's why the leadership is important. That's why the people that Jack Ilan Larry page the everybody at the mark Zuckerberg they are defining where this wave is going yeah and I I'm hoping to be one of the people that does as well that's beautiful joke. Joe
off. Can I can I finish by reading something sure of ah recently witnessed because of this Tesla work, because of just the passion of put out there about particularly automation that there has been a few people, brilliant men and women engineers and leaders, including Elon Musk, who have been sort of attacked, almost personally attacked by really people critics from the sidelines, and so I just did too. If I may close by reading the famous excerpt from Mateo's, Roosevelt yeah, okay, just for them, it was. You feel good. Okay, if you won't do that. Ah, it's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have. Them better. The credit belongs to the man whose action only in the arena whose face is much goodbye dust and sweat and blood who
has valiantly who errs who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without and shortcoming, but who does actually strive to do the deeds? Who knows great enthusiasms the great devotions who spa himself in a worthy cause who, at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who, at the worst, if he fails at least fails daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold, timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. Joe. Thank you for having me on sounds that you let the haters get to you a little bit there. Love is the answer. Love is the answer. Yes, it is Thank you for being here man. I really appreciate it and thank you. I'm really happy you're out there. Thanks for the thanks, will do this again soon thanks Alright bye everybody. Thank you. Everyone
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Transcript generated on 2019-09-25.