Eric Weinstein is a mathematician and economist, and he is also the managing director at Thiel Capital. His new podcast "The Portal" is available now on Apple Podcasts & Spotify. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-portal/id1469999563
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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love him to death, he's a great guy. Please give it and we had a fucking intense, deep converse, station. This one went three hours and like forty minutes or something close close to it and Piccoli got really intense towards the last hour one more brilliant people. I've ever met my life. Please give it up for my friend Eric Weinstein, the Joe Rogan experience, my Joe Rogan, so it's Eric lines dying. Not wine. Steam yeah. I think it was originally vine stain stain. Day in stained German yeah, but
shop. It was the week we came from a town between a Dessa in Kiev called all mine and that's where the the family, the the Vine Stain family, came for. We talked about how many people missed once Weinstein, instead of Weinstein, it's it's epidemic, and yet no, he ever says Albert Einstein. Yes, that's yeah strange right That is a weird one behind steam is not you know, like is. Is there a guy named MIKE? I look all my clients, the no no thanks dean is I like that. You remember the old blazing saddles MEL Brooks Brooks and Harvey Korman Character with Hedley Lamarr and everyone would call him Hedy Lamarr and it was like the running joke in the picture. That's right! I fucking loved Brooks movies. Remember the Yiddish speaking Indians, that had to be the best. Oh yeah, that's right. He had some crate
movies man. There's fun, fucking movies, man just silly fun. Outrageous move. Yeah. I mean he was at his transitional right. I guess it was the borscht belt being updated for the modern era. Yeah indie film, but it was also it was, you know, for the time much more contemporary, but with that sort of borscht belt sort of, sort of right in the writers, room. I guess from Sid Caesar's show of shows. Was this legendary factory before Saturday night live for all of these kind of crazy talents behind the scenes. I think he came out of that car runner, oh, that makes sense, he's How old is MEL Brooks? Now? I don't want to ask the question because maybe something will happen. I know right. It's one of the. I think I saw recently that he turned ninety three and I thought shit. Is he dead?
like a Melbourne, you know because they were saying all these great things. Mel Brooks things MEL fuck MIKE we lose MEL Brooks, but it's like one of those things were Is it it's going to happen? I mean he's. Ninety three, I know but every time it does. I know I mean I guess Betty White is another one of these people right right, and so we need these very exotic links to our past and become more important as time goes on, if they're still vital, because you know we want desperately to be connected to something before you know our current era. Given that, I think a lot of us sort of don't believe in anything that happened before Google right in kids today. Imagine trying to describe to kids today what it was like to grow up without the internet, yeah aren't or not being able to reach people. You have to make extensive plans yeah in a backup plans. Will if you're, not there. At this time, yeah I used to have to yell
open up your window. Yell for your friends. I remember when I first got an answering machine. I thought was the most amazing thing ever when I was in high school my family got an answering machine and I was like this is credible and you would you leave like stupid music like to let everybody know you were cool, like you have some cool news hey it's Joe, not here right now, but if you leave a message I'll get back to you, probably you got like old people, people I think I think someone in my family still has one of these cutesy messages from like the late eighties, really yeah on their voicemail. But then who leaves voicemails and the thing that gets that marks me as an old. Is I actually call people? That's I like that I've been doing that more lately yeah. I call a lot of people now. I just feel like it's just it's better the texting thing. The problem is, if it's very interesting how we separated ourselves, into this
electronic communication world, where I will, during the day in communication almost con. Gently with a stream of The only thing that stops- it is a podcast podcast, this is my my rest for three hours I'm not talking to anybody other than you. So all these, texts that come through I'll get the end of the podcast I'll go and look at my phone will be forty tax sometimes this is my and if I had to make forty phone calls be impossible to manage. It would be a big cause, constant. Be coming in you'd, never really be able to say anything. So we're feeding This weird loop, where we Just have these short. For from things like a dinner tomorrow, sure what time, how about nine I can do seven. Okay, let's do it. You know, I mean it's like these weird little bursts of information you ever see a remember this program. California, and it was it called Californication. Yeah with David right so
is the scene where he's having some really hot intergenerational sex, and this gal said is like lol, and kills said it out loud. She said it is, she says lol and he loses total interest. There's no amount of of heat in the moment that can compensate for the fact that she's using like verbal emojis while he needs to fucking, get over know how hot she is It depends on how you say it if she's really funny she's like lol, you know- being silly. I said, like you know, I learned that from I learned from Jim Norton, Jim Norton will always say: L o l, like he'll, say something really ridiculous and then say: L, o l o, but he's just mocking himself you're over fifty. It's intrinsically ironic right, but you know in terms of this weird thing about islands of time. One of the things that we do is we have shabbat dinner and every Friday
no matter how atheist in militant people are against any kind of organized religion. They will leave us alone. If we say going into Shabbat, and so there's this thing about will pester me in all sorts of situations, but if I invoke something that is vaguely religious. Even SAM Harris probably wouldn't call me during that period of time. I find that very interesting. I could you. Could you create a real Inn, that was simply there to make sure that you had some time off line yeah. I know If I text Ben Shapiro, I'm not getting the text back on Saturday. It was dark, but when it Mark he text you as soon as they are three stars in the sky. There's been on Twitter is like what did I miss so weird, it's so it's so weird that people bought, I mean on one hand I think it's probably a really good idea to just take a break from all. Electronic shit and just connect with humans,
in a in a very old school type of way. I think it's probably very good for connect with yourself. I had this experience. I actually lived in Jerusalem for two years and we landed in this orthodox round Hotel and on Friday night everything shut down. You know like they textbook and I then moved into a an ultra orthodox neighbor neighborhood right on the on the boundary of a place where the secular and the worth of x men. What was really fascinating to me is I started telling people you know you'd, never think that it's great not to be able to find a restaurant or a nightclub, but it's amazing that This is enforced downtime in about a month in somebody said somebody, oh you're, in the wrong place. Of course, you can go out on Friday night. You just go to the russian compound and everything's hopping and you can go dancing and drinking, and all these things after I knew that I went dancing and drinking and I was much less happy than believe.
That somehow Israel actually shut down on Friday, night and so very weirdly. I appreciated the constraint as soon as I knew you could break the constraint. I was less happy and I would never actually obey it anymore. Yeah, I think, having a rigid rule, even though it seems it seems like counterintuitive in the that like it would provide you some freedom by having restrictions, but it does These is some freedom like okay, like now, we don't have to think about all these other things. So now we have the freedom to just be alone. Now we have the freedom to be relaxed. Now we have the freedom to just talk to human beings. You know what I think constraints and it's like the you know: Jocko is Jocko Willink totally, everybody knows, Jocko Discipline equals Freedom discipline equals for doesn't seem like that makes sense like this mother up at four hundred and thirty in the morning, throwing heavy beats around grunting and act like a savage running goes out to the
Beach and he earns a sunrise. Every morning goes out and takes photos. You know takes a photo of his. And watch for thirty hits the gym like a savage and then so photo sometimes of the sunrise earning the sunrise and like but thank God is like a prison to like force you self into that, but no no! He know if there's freedom in that because he knows he doesn't have. Make any decisions for thirty knows what he's going to do knows what he's going to do? Just you just go. Do it and that way I mean you look at the guy he's a fucking tank, tank 'cause he's always up at four hundred and thirty fucking throwing weights around it just doesn't need never stops. You never never takes never takes so self indulgent time to lay in bed and beat off pick his nose and then fucking check his text messages listening to this right now and thinking. Maybe I do a little bit of that. I don't think he does really no total discipline? Yeah did you, I think, Ayra reading his
inner dialogue about going to a birthday party and breaking down and having a scoop of ice cream or something like the pie, and it's like you know the drama of their it waas temptation I held out for forty five minutes, but eventually I became weak yeah. I don't fuck with that. I just do it so I'm going to parties eat that cake. You know I mean I just feel like I do it enough. I'm alright will be fun. There's this store. Abed Jackie, that she got this cancer diagnosis and apparently her first words upon finding out that she had metastatic cancer was than what I do all the set ups for when interesting comment. That's an interesting. How much thought to and some need to talk to her John JFK was keeping her in the dark. Is that right, yeah? It must be what's happening over there. Jim something on the tv yeah tell her that sit. Ups. Do you want you want? No cancer sit ups! That's the way to do it. I guess I don't know I mean I think I think we all
so many days of our lives that we build this pattern that this is going to go. One forever and there's some first moment. I think I recall it where the phrase popped into my head. I can see my death from here and it has to do you know. There's like this weird thing when you hit forty, you start to be ableto, have analytic thoughts that air uninterrupted by sex really yeah. I don't know when I turned forty. I found that um some aspect of the thinking too much about sexuality definitely decreased, and then you start to realize, like your, when your testosterone starts to go down, you don't feel if you don't feel like yourself yeah, you become a different thing: yes yeah when you're chemical composition, it changes the way your body feels changes. The way you interface with the world changes like I wasn't. I wasn't feeling all great yesterday, I was sort of clowning around with the person behind the bar at Starbucks, and she said, oh, why are you down? I said I don't know just
tell me something nice about my hair and she says she looks at me and she says: oh, I love salt and pepper. I thought damn oh really worst is that we barely saw him pepper. I could barely see anything he's talking about the song she's built bullshitting. You know she just didn't want me flirting with her, so she just shut me down by saying you want me to talk with you here. Okay, you crossed the threshold, you say: well, that's all right! Yes, sir, when someone says say something: nice like that, could get ugly for a girl exactly yeah yeah and she was captive situation wasn't being fair, yeah right. Does this is worst, but we work behind the bar we'd established a report before that. I actually, I actually think she thought it was a kind and sensitive comment, but but I don't see any salt, I'm looking I don't believe there might be a few- and you know, but not like
Screenshot screen shot to count gonna count all the the arrows. This is something I've learned when you come on your show. Your audience is so large and active that they will. They will pinpoint every time stamp yeah there's a lot of people in cubicles right now, wasting their employers time to those people the solution to tears say for the folks at home that before we start- with this, you asked me: did I want layered, Hamilton, coffee and I said, Laird Hamilton, coffee, what's Laird Hamilton Coffee, and he gave me something laced with turmeric- which may turn our lips funny colors. So if now. I drink it every day. All right! It's fine! It's really good, though, but it does give you a flim little little bit of that, because it's got all sorts of t oil and all sorts of great stuff in there Laird Hamilton's a real freak, really interesting out pioneer yeah, just just talking to him and hanging out with him and say seeing how his brain works, like you got to do that,
Adam on the podcast yeah. It was really really fun. So did you? What is he okay? This is some I'm totally curious, but I don't surf because surfing is, in my estimation, going through some kind of a renaissance right now, I'm super keen to under Stan, what the series of innovations are given that lots of other things aren't innovating at anything like the surfing innovation rate the big one is that new type of surfboard, what the hell is, that called like a sale, foil, foil. That thing is amazing and doesn't it's it's so weird looking if you look at like what are you standing on like? Why is it elevated? Well, that is the magic carpet of the sea. Let's be honest, that's what it is and I am obsessed I was asking before yeah um, there's this guy hi Kyle. Any who, for me, is just redefining surfing by taking these monster waves and
he's, turning them into his private little skate park in doing tricks off the top of skyscraper waves, and I'm just thinking. Do you even know what you're doing or where you are? If you keep saying this one phrase, which is I'm just scratching, what blows my mind, is I'm just scratching the surface? He knows that he's making that discontinue tenuous jump and if you, if you think about sport from the perspective of when did things just change like almost overnight, you know Bob Beamon are arguably, is one of the great moments in all of sporting history that happens in the long jump. Just because you have incremental sport that suddenly you know somebody jumps a foot more than anyone's ever jumped before some that. So it's really interest. Thing when somebody changes the game it is in and when you find out that there's stuff that you can do in other sports, like skate sports like different, crazy, flips and stuff that someone figures out how to do that on a wave, the Consequ
there. So fucking grave. If you make a mistake in your eighty foot wave that which comes slamming down on you, but part of the innovation? Is safety right right with is best inflatable, vest and with these water water safety courses for big wave surfers. I think that what's fascinating is. You think the innovation is in the tricks. Maybe, but maybe the innovation is actually in hey. You can afford to wave hold down in a way you couldn't before or you're, going to drive all sorts of things that might have been fatal right right right. So you have this open area to innovate. Yeah That let me surf is fascinating to me. I don't do it, I haven't done it, but I went snorkeling when was in Hawaii last couple weeks ago. I'm such a I'm just I'm smoking with my kids right. So of course, like I'm trying to figure out how to be the Mama duck and like
corral, everybody everybody's. If the sharks comedy gets me, I'm just trying to just looking around 'cause, some guy got got. He got jacked, I think snorkeling in Maui, Just a couple of months ago, like right, half of a resort tiger shirt- probably not probably yeah yeah. Well, so Yeah some lady got it yesterday not yesterday to couple days ago in was it the Bahamas? Three sharks one took her arm off and the other two just ripped apart front. Everybody. College kid from from California. Well, I'm very
interested in situations that change with sharks, like reunion, for example, in the Indian Ocean off of Madagascar, used to be a surfing hot spot and they had a bull shark problem where the bull sharks just sort of learned how to eat humans are attacking humans. But the great thing is: we have got some weird thing going on with the true apex predator of the seas, which is the orca. We have one recorded bite in the wild ever. How does this make any sense? Great whites are not apex predators, because orchids will just take them out right and had this poll on Twitter, the other day, which is orcas colon, um best species ever was number one. Then the other possibility was the dicks of the deep because they're such asshole. I didn't know that there was a recorded bite of anyone in a while. I thought it was all in captivity. Know there's a certain. There was a surfer who got a bite really yeah, but you know on the
other hand. How are you going to make contact if you're an orca, you don't have opposable thumbs, it might be need for all. I know I mean look It has to be a joke because otherwise the the guy would be dead, work. I wanted to kill you when you're in the water, that's like. If you let an ant go. Ok, but why have work is never attacked us there's some. Recorded instances of swimmers, paddle boarders, surfers running into orcas. Some weird thing is going on. We have to. We have to work this out. Jim yeah, let's try, because we've got well. First of all. What assholes are we that we have, those God damn things in captivity and a big fucking shoutout out to Canada, because Canada, mostly probably through the noise that my friend filled Demers, has created in try get Marineland shut down. Canada is banned, all orca and all dolphin captivity. It's amazing help the United States? Does it as well? I hope it hope it goes worldwide. It's I think it's I think it's slavery,
really do I think it's a different kind of slavery. They are almost us. They look across between us and wolves in the ocean. Well, they have. They just don't have the ability to manipulate their environment, but they have a cerebral cortex, a dolphin. Does it's forty percent larger than human beings? That's What is going on there? Like the cerebral cortex, see, there's thinking happening there really thinking. Well, am I right that they have menopause like they're the only that. Essentially, the only other species with menopause and you're only gonna get menopause likely if females are contributing some sort of intellectual labor past their reproductive horizon. How was that because? Well, I thought menopause is just a shift in the hormonal balance of what what is the purpose evolutionarily of continuing life beyond um, the ability to reproduce? That's a good point, because that's
doesn't that's not the case in mammals and mammals. Deer in particular can breed deep into old old age If you have a resource, that's limiting you be better off in terms of systems of selective pressures of shifting something that is continuing past. That point. You know this is the old point about. I think it was Henry Ford who used to go to the the dump to see what broke down, the car's on what was still working, hey would transfer materials and resource is from things that were dependably found to work to the things. That would be the limiting feature that would break so that the the cars would all break down sort of uniformly. At the end, You see this like with salmon or salmon disintegrate, because it's a reproductive strategies. SAM is going to make another run, so you might as well go out in a blaze of glory right, yeah
They also have a massive infanticide. You know, that's the horrible thing about dolphins, their ruthless. They kill their babies. The male dolphins will kill female dolphins babies in order to force them in the yeah and that this strategy, see the female dolphins have acquired to mitigate, that is that they become sluts because the male dolphins don't know whether or not the females baby is theirs, because they don't have 23andme under the ocean. So what happens? Is the female? have sex with as many mails if she can yeah. So that way, she's protected in her child is protected, because then all the males think it could possibly be there baby. They don't kill their own baby, which is really interesting that they differentiate, is many mammals that also participate in this? Don't like bears don't differentiate between there their babies and someone else's babies of so the females in you know, she's carrying around cubs the mail will
kill and eat the cubs that the force her back? The Astros? perhaps just even for food, because they're so ruthless and cannibalistic but dolphins, who we think of as are beautiful, charming, wonderful, little buddies in the water. They kill babies, the killer, whales, of course dolphins, yes, they're, a type of dolphin, so you know that the issue is, you know I think about why? Why do we not get attacked? It's like a professional courtesy. Assholes recognize that I don't know man, but every time I go to Hawaii, we we swim with either not swim with dolphins or, if you're in a boat- and you fishing theme dolphins, find the boat and they swim with the boat. I've never done that. It's here I'll show you a little video, it's kind of wild. Because what they do is they literally go and they hang out with the wave of your boat. So Your boat is, as your boat is tuning along. They they ride the way.
They figure out a way how to do that. They figure out a way to get in front of the boat and as the boat is pushing the water they just sort of like helps him along like reverse drafting, because they're kind of in front of it says you're pushing the water. We find it here. It's really interesting man, they're they're, an incredible little animal. I mean it's so here goes. So that's us in the boat that's way: cool yeah,. In wild out with you, I mean wild dolphins, middle of the ocean. They don't know you You could be an asshole; they trust you enough to try to get our technology. They want the boats. I don't think so. So you think we're trapped by that the laugh Carrie, hey, watch this. We can do this commute to carry anything we were carrying everything by ourselves, we're almost useless naked useless. We have to have clothes,
have to carry the clothes you have to have shoes you gotta, have your old man were extended, FINA type, guys? Yes, they think we're fools. They think well, yeah they're out there with free food, don't worry about carrying credit cards Bitcoin all that nonsense out there in the ocean just a bit. They have bitcoin things going to the deep ash. I don't think they do um. I think that probably pretty pissed you killed all the fish, though yeah. I think that their actual you know the the orcas figured out how to use our fill. Features, fishing boats and just wait for us to get stuff on the line, and then they like people. Thank you for organizing my dinner. Well, hum. Orcas are not that smart, because they're not adapting like there's a particular pod in the Pacific Northwest, that relies on Chinook salmon. Oh yeah,. They're, trying to figure out a way because the salmon populations massively we to do do a bunch of different factors, including put
comes up and they've done a bunch of stupid shit that they didn't they did a long time ago and they didn't really understand the consequences of it. It's really been devastating to the salmon population up there and Chinook salmon in particular, because this what these orcas eat now they also have this much for pod. That comes in that relies on marine mammals, and the migrant pod is doing great they're doing great they're eating all the seals and they're having a good old time Whatever reason the pod that stays in that area doesn't want to eat marine mammals, they only want to eat Chinook salmon, so they're fucking, literally starving to death. I think they read this book on fixed versus growth mindset, the transit transit pods, hey Everyday is a new day. We could do something different, the other ones that now I'm kind of a creature of habit there be. The salmon are coming back, they just have a very specific diet. They just won't deviate from which I find to be really weird. What is it that pods missing right now? Is it probably all dead they haven't? They haven't been seen in over three weeks, which is the longest they have been
gone for Washington's resident orcas go missing! Oh yeah! I remember that, like no new babies had been born in the Puget sound area, I hope I hope they're not dead. Man, that's horrible. I don't know it's just sad because they can't figure out a way how to teach them to eat marine animals. There's all these different strategies have tried to figure out a way to teach them to eat seals, but they're, not interested. And they've also decided to try to figure out a way to farm raised Chinook salmon and re introduce them to that area. But then again you know like how do you how you designate those salmon specifically for the orchids and not for fishermen like what do you do when people you know they catch fish? What do you do? Do you tell him put it back is for the orca yeah join. I don't have any actual expertise in this area.
I mean either just talking well, you know we went down to ah Hearst Castle and there's this elephant seal colony there and my family decided that this is the worst species ever of mammal elephant seals. Oh man, they're horrible, like first of all in terms of sexual dynamics, you know one beach master he's got a couple: lieutenants were trying to take over his role in the the lieutenant seemingly can have sex with one or two of the females, not too much, but this just enough to keep him happy, yeah, yeah, right and then the beach masters have to fight each other, and and they're all these dead babies all over the beach, because the giant bulls just trample them on their way to fights right. So then, then, you have like the female if they lose, the pup they've got to get rid of their milk, so they steal somebody else's baby. So the whole thing
If you transpose like human, if you answered from wharfies, you just think these people are whore Well, this is a crack house on the beach and there's no way. How do we get some great whites and remove these mammals immediately they're making the family look bad yeah. Maybe we could get the orchid, sorry already that's right now, because orders are we have a deal, yeah, it's a big animal. So it's a good meal. Look at those dead babies that is so fucked up, not they're all dead, but it might be And they are lazy, they are not an industrious. They are when they're in the sea, but when they're just on land, but they just laying there well they're, not they're they're, just chilling what other children come on any of them. There are well you see in when workers do beach themselves to get those things right, wow. Well, they it's right on the edge, the hydra, the hydroplane on the and the they back in, like I was like scratched up. They are from the ground, so weird looking animal to what a weird fucking thing that is well,
I'm Randolph Hearst was a real piece of shit, he really was. You know, he's the reason why we have wild pigs in California, reported wild boars and released him on his property? Six hundred am so we're driving down the highway and my son says: looked at wild zebras, I said haha son, that's very cute, says no! No really! And I look up and there is a herd of wild zebras. What Hearst Castle has closed down the zoo they let the zebras out. We have a herd of wild zebras in California that no one told me about shut the fuck up. I serious I've won the Joe Rogan experience. I finally told you something you don't know anything about, especially about invasive wildlife, some yeah, it's crazy, so zebra, in California. That change your mind a little bit on MR hearse.
No he's a piece of shit all right. He evil that he's one of the main reasons why marijuana became illegal. Was he smoking too much? Well, it's all see theory and conjecture. But the story is the traditional told by stoners with some education story. Is William Randolph Hearst, along with Harry Anslinger, conspired to make marijuana illegal when Dupont came up with the chemical comp. Vision for nylon and when it was the combination of several factors and the decorticator was invent. Decorticator was a way that they could effectively process hemp fiber without the use of slavery. The reason why they switched over from hemp, clothes in hemp sales and canvas canvas which is actually comes from the word cannabis all Canada was made from hemp. Yes, I did all that stuff is made from hemp. It's far superior to cotton, far superior terms of strength in terms of the
durability Judas what burlap bag like yeah. That's, okay, hemp is alien plant hemp. I had a piece of hemp like the stock of how when you cut into boards like this table, that it would be as hard as this oak. As light as balsa wood. Isn't Emily strange. I, I've seen these acts, will stock of a hemp tree when it gets really big and you'll. Have it thick around like I got man's shoulder right it weighs like nothing. It's really strange. It's a strange, strange plant not like any other It has all the essential amino acids it contains protein. You can cook with the oil. The oil can sustain you, it's got essential, senchal fatty and wonder we have to ban it. Fucking amazing amazing plant, but anyway They came out with his Dick or Decatur, and the D Cor Decatur, because the way the? U
to do it was like a very labor intensive process of breaking down the hemp fiber and turning it into something that you can make close within paper. So pop science magazine in see if you could find the cover this in, like the nineteen early nineteen thirties had a cover said hemp, the new billion dollar crop on because they had had this Deke or Decatur right, so William Randolph Hearst on top of having Hearst publication public. He also had paper mills because you know we had uh, he want to make his own paper. So we had these forests in the ad paper and he would make paper out of wood. There is well say: is it a cover of it, though that says, hemp, hemp, the new billion dollar crop, that's just the inside part of it, but you find it anyway. So William Randolph Hearst would have had to have shift over 'cause hemp paper and, if you ever with it it it's incredibly durable, it's crazy. It's it's hard to tear it.
Really fucking strong, like it's a fucking alien plant, there's nothing like it. It's so weird like you see it recipe. Everything look this light, please favorite, air it. No, no, no fucking, really durable. So They were saying. This was going to replace all paper. That's made out of wood and William Randolph Hearst is like slowly roll bitches. I got an idea, so he starts pulling together all these stories about men Mexicans and blacks that are small. Taking this drug called marijuana They're, raping white women and when Congress made marijuana illegal. They probably didn't even understand that it was hemp because it was the same God. Damn thing, marijuana was a. Mexican slang for tobacco for awhile tobacco, so they re purpose This name and called it this this plan call this marijuana use. This gigantic conspiracy, so that this fucking pieces shit could save money. Alright
really what it was because he had access. He was like the Youtube in the Google of you know along with the nineteen he did blog post. He had access he, is the one who get to decide it gets distributed, and so he and that was a big part of the whole reefer madness film campaign and all that shit. All of that stuff was about economics. The whole thing was about economics, american farmer, is a promising new cash crop with an annual value of several hundred million dollars. All because of a machine has been invented which saw problems more than six thousand years old. It is hemp. Crop that will not compete with other american products. Instead, it will displace imports of raw material in manufactured products produced by underpaid pez and coolie labor coolie labor wow. What is that man? I don't even know what that means. It's not talk about it. Well, it means
no. No, it will provide thousands of jobs for american workers throughout the land, so this was all in February, one thousand nine hundred and thirty eight. They thought they were going to they're, going to change the way out with this shit, and then you had all these people that were a part of the whole prohibition for alcohol. They just shift those mother over to help. I mean think about it. Over the period of you know. Ten fifteen years, if you had fifteen years ago. You know we're talking about like two thousand and four you had a bunch of people. The Bush administration that were really into banning certain drugs, and you still have them hanging around. You know Allah that dipshit. That was the attorney general for a while, but the with the named name little weasel the little weasel Trump got rid of sessions that piece of shit that guy same thing, these little weasel good people don't smoke marijuana. Well, then, you don't you, you know he's a he's. A viper is that what they, what they used to call people smoked, weed back on him and he's not smoking the weed-
that look anytime. I see somebody is really against homosexuality. I said I said the clock yeah right yeah and he he he you have to ask ask yourself who, in the modern era like I found it astounding that when you came on this program and had a blank that like it, was an issue yeah and can you imagine if, like you on it,
the glass of chardonnay well, he did yes, no, no, no, I know, but the the just the fact that our language and our thought process around them right. As you said, I had a I had a dinner at our house. While ago we took some of the most knowledgeable people on psychedelics and related substances to just have a discussion about what is the state of schedule, one pharmacology and we ask the question of the interesting substances. What are the three that you find we're most informative in terms of self revelation, changing your understanding for the better it's better. I was astounded that of people who seemed to be very knowledgeable about the mind altering substances. Almost everyone put a cannabis in the top three, my because so why would I thought I'd be sort of common place? You know I wouldn't have guessed you know
Somebody would say five me, o DMT, somebody else would say Kettleman. Somebody else would say LS STI or D m t or I Waseca um, but the common thread throughout all of these people, who are many of them were researchers um, was that they felt the cannabis, was miraculous substance. Well, it certainly the deal is. It has two different forms right as a smokable form, which you know you can get real fucking high or it has the edible form, which is like you like yeah, but like a psychedelic, is very much so it actually, he is more cycle. There's there's something called eleven hydroxy metabolite that it's only president when you eat it. It's process by the liver, there's something called the one pass
it goes through the liver. Produces this eleven hydroxy metabolite, that's somewhere between four hundred and five hundred times more psychoactive than thc, and it's responsible for people thinking that they got dosed like a lot of times and people eat at Oh my god, this isn't pot some things in there. Well, it's just eleven hydroxy metabolite, that's what it is yeah! It's way different! It's way different, like it's why it's confusing to people like well, I can't fuck with edibles it's a different drug. It's a different drug because eleven hydroxy metabolite is not present in psychoactive form when you smoke it so when you eat it, that's when get that really fucking weird body high and dimensional relationship use it better. Worse or it more interesting well for the tank, it's Bueno the best for the isolation tank, that's my favorite, my favorite is a good stiff dose of inedible of edible, and then you know wait about forty five minutes then get in the tank 'cause. Forty five minutes is like the way I
describe it is like with certain psychedelic drugs, and I do consider edible marijuana psychedelic, especially when you get into the one hundred. Noah two hundred milligram doses, it's very psychedelic and special. Early in the tank because in the tank, when, in the absence of any visual stimulation, when your eyes are close, you have these wild. Almost like neon visuals, like I start, start seeing these strange dancing cartoons and like weird, weird shit unrelated to other substances. You can get similar situations on other psychedelics, especially in the tank. The tank is a really unique way to experience anything even even normal cycle, like the the new normal state, the normal state of consciousness. Do you have without any drugs at all inside the tank? It transforms right because in the app sense of any sensory input- and you
I have anything coming your way, don't feel your skin. Your brain starts really getting free and loose, and you start it gets very fusing as to what's reality and what's not what boundaries of of vision and interpretation and just create? Tivity like how much of this is your imagination. How much of this is not well, You add any sort of psychedelic to that tank experience? Everything is ramped up. It's like you know. It's like you know you add some dry bugs when you mix it with other drugs, they become like way more potent that's what happens in the tank. The tank in and of itself is some kind of a drug, or it produces some kind of profound drug like effects like it be banned. No, I don't think you can have you how much experience you have with the tank not much how many times I've done it. I've been once, and it was as a teenager, comma. You should have one really should. This is a great way to relax too. It's a great.
And you as a mathematician, you think of things in your you're spending a lot of time contemplating things, and you have to realize that any other input way when we think about it or not, is chew up some band with the, although I actually have a kind of ambient level of distraction, which is how most helpful for look at when I get out there I get with, So you, like an ambient level of distraction, sometimes, for example, go to an all night cafe at like two the morning and the bill just enough human. I mean I have very ambiguous feelings about humans. Don't worry, I don't consider you one. What are you? What are you? yourself, talk time, this one, okay! No, I really in many ways, I've left this planet really yeah. I think that there's a way in which I've checked out how so well, I think that
When you get deep enough into your own mind and you start dealing with abstractions and you find that the real world, I wasn't planning on going it where we can try it um when you find that the real world, ah is often a kind of noisy um place to think and that you actually prefer really powerful abstractions, and then you check in with the real world to say does that abstraction actually govern the world that I'm in you start to prefer? Ah I'm living in the abstractions. That's interesting like do you feel the same way about like a crowded nightclub like if you go to a bar and you do you find that that stimulates thinking well, it depends. I mean, if I'm in a stimulating conversation, I'm very present. If I'm in an advanced,
letting conversation. I have to make my own fund right, and so I will start to sort of play. I mean you know at times I'll just make up a story and see how it flies um. You know if I don't think I'm hurting anybody on Dde sometimes all sort of experiment with people. I think experiment all people well, you like say something see want to see if they bite. Well, you, let's, let's imagine example, you were going to move to Austin. Okay, are you going to just be the same old. You you're, not gonna, take the opportunity to perhaps reinvent yourself. So, for example, you know If I suddenly change, if I start wearing glasses, and I wear like a really fashion forward pair of spectacles. You should wear aviators with yellow lenses like Hunter S Thompson. I would like that I'd. Like that do with your crazy hair? Yeah You are some yellow aviators and don't even address it. Diagram in public
where I'm indoors and we can, if I do, any sort of alter is like. Maybe maybe I I've never seen it what I look like with a bald head, so I wouldn't if I was going to move cities, is the best time to try it. Try something new, and so you know art at our age, Joe. Yes um. How old do you fifty three uh yeah? That's all right, yeah, I'm fifty one, almost fifty two. So the great danger is complacency, and so I I'm terrified about becoming complacent. So I always wanted experiment change like what is it that I could continue to do to grow and if you can't play an experiment like me, you know imagine you
I did you wanted to go by Joseph Joseph just to see whether it worked whatever it is. We get so locked in and if we change anything, people get angry and I've always looked at Madonna and David Bowie as like Genius squared. Not only did each iteration of them do some thing that was kind of artistically interesting, but they habituated their audience for change and so the idea is that, every time you met a different David Bowie, you know he would effectively say. Do you like this incarnation of me, because it's not going to be it's only here for one year and then I'm gonna do something new. The next time, they're just had a conversation with Sean Lennon um, in which we talked about how his father, John Lennon always kept changing, and yet people want,
to plug. In with the idea that John Lennon was just the guy who wrote. Imagine let's say and that's that's a great danger is that if you think about like your output, some to say well, you know didn't you in two thousand and fourteen tweet x. I got you it's like well, you know maybe have ten thousand and maybe you changed, maybe maybe new information came in so yeah. That is a weird thing about pulling up thoughts that you had from a day. Scared or more ago and trying to put them on you today. And if you say I don't think that way anymore. People don't want except accept that they it's a disingenuous conversation, they're not really try. Find out what you think they're trying to get. You know it's more interesting. For example, um there's been a ton of pressure we can get to this in a second to for me to address the question of
the I d w? Is it still alive? Is it in trouble at international national dork web? Yes, so does. Is the intentional? dirt dirt bag. With the come back to that, when share did this remake of? I got you babe with Beavis and Butthead I remember because she had this duet with Sonny bono and then she got into a bad thing with Sonny and so she's, not gonna re record the song and I'm just gonna torch it right now. The problem is somebody had that. Is there wedding song, no, no other way We probably did it with Beavis and head, but there's something they don't care. People from Florida case that one but a Florida man is the then when you change things is that other people wet themselves so where you were so when you pull up you say yeah, I don't think that that's just wrong. I was confused
I was going through a dark time and I probably say instead, I should if, if you do that anybody who sort of invested in that version of you and integrated that into their lives, is now angry, they're upset Mmm, wait a minute. You pulled the rug out from under me, and so you know in part with Bowie and Madonna did is they said, look these air stages and if you like that stage, that stage is yours, but I'm not staying there, and I think that that's sort of the more responsible way of doing it is that you're allowed your evolution, but you have to let people know um, I'm going to do something totally different from time to time. Well, I like the idea of doing things that were just do it just do it yeah, don't try to explain yourself constable, they didn't explain themselves right, they just they did it in a clear enough way,
people could understand the pattern, and so you know, for example- and this is something I think would be kind of interesting to talk about. Um everybody is losing their mind at the moment in this space that you and I sort of Cho in habit of ideas and trying to figure out. How do we remain? pain and plugged in and open, hearted and open to new things, but also rigorous and fair. All of these weird pressures The ideas behind the intellectual dark web that you coined this, this concept, of having a bunch of people that have different ideologies, but yet share this common theme of wanting to have real, honest communication and honest conversations and try to figure out instead of looking at things from an ideological perspective, look at things from an honest objective point: and try to see the way the other people open, hearted and not trying. Destroy each yeah and effectively trying to be the adults in the room as we watch, the kids run right right and
and not always not always achieving that. Now, because I refused to actually say what it was or who was in it, because there was a lot of pressure to codify, and I knew that if I codified it I want a membership card. You have you have one, but if I don't, if I don't get one you have there's a clubhouse. Just don't tell the members where it is because of them there's an article about the id W. It doesn't mention me, I'm like yes yeah in a way, yeah slipping away, but what I do like Pacino and three. We want to bring you back it's so there is, there's been some discussion about certain members of certain people that are losing their marbles. Yeah yeah. I think it's pressure you know and I think one of the things that we're all recognizing from whether it's the internet and and the or just celebrity in general, which I think part of the culprit is esp. Actually, if you're reading comments and articles are written about, you, which I do not recommend, if you
are doing that. I'm doing that! Don't do that if you're doing that, you are subject to a massive amount of pressure yeah, it's it's a lot of pressure and sometimes people they apply that sometimes that pressure can help you like if it's a good friend or someone who you trust and it's done with intellectual honesty and they just really. They think that there's maybe a flaw in your thinking or maybe this could help you or maybe this is an issue, and then you realize that, and you correct that's great, but there's a lot of people that are bending to the will of the masses and they also for responding to the pressure of the mass. I don't even think it's the masses. It knows more reasons. I read my comments because I want to know what I'm not kidding. Listen to me Joe here we go. Let's go down the rabbit hole to go for.
We went. We talked about this recently. Let me just say this: before you get going, we knew something was going on years ago. I used to have a message board and on. My message board in my website team problematic for legal reasons. People are putting a bunch of illegal shit up there and I was kind of responsible for a few issues came up when I was like oh Jesus, I'm going in real trouble. We had an influx x and by an influx I mean one thousand, Enfield sins of russian emails, mails signing from my message board. I mean thousands with really similar email addresses and they would pose and pretend there from fucking, Cleveland or post and be mad that we don't have enough now nazis on or whatever the fuck it would be. You know it would just be just same thing with the r I r A was doing. The internet research agency was doing with Facebook and Google into it. We were seen this like four five years ago that this stuff was
happening where they were recognizing that the diseased large portals of discussion- and so trying to manipulate the discussion and turn certain questions, toxic and certain, and you know and come up preposterous conspiracy theories and attack people for non. Sensical reasons. Well, this is the thing I keep seeing the same message modified a hundred different ways from a bunch accounts that have suspicious similarity. Not one of these accounts usually is followed by anyone I care about, and then they have a few high value accounts with blurry photographs of a person that, like I think somebody is like putting real money into that account to create a fake person who just dog doggedly, follows you and is constantly trying to
to you in your area that account. But how do you know that? That's what that is, and how do you know it's? Not just some person gets a friend. You know that really is really interested in Eric. Weinstock was couple times: I've tried to like talk to the person instantly that the thing vanishes, thank you're so disgusting. I would never talk to you. Goodbye click, well. Maybe they just panicked could be just a person. Well, that's the thing, well. You never know, on the other hand, um you remember when we took that photograph at that dinner, yeah um there was this huge number of jokes about Ben Shapiro and a booster seat that were all slightly different versions of the joke, and all of the accounts were like striking with similar e was thinking like well, I I could imagine a little bit of this, but it's way too many, and this is part of what I believe I believe, that we are in a new world in which a lot of the
grassroots stuff is, is Astro turf and if you start to listen to it, you start to get pushed, and I start to watch certain tactical. I make models of the tactics you know like one of the tactics is gosh Eric, I once thought that you had a lot of integrity and now I know that x,
you know, if you don't, if you don't address this situation, I'm done following oh really, goodbye click but uh. I believe that um. I believe that there are sophisticated players who are engaged in trying to either boost our signal or start to alter the signal. Somebody will be up, somebody will be down ah and then there's like really weird dynamics. Um, I think that there's a very strange thing going on not with Dave Rubin but with the crowd of people that is just trying to eat, Dave Rubin and had been blind him and confuse him and this. Ah, you know this this guy SAM Cedar, who do you think, he's a russian? I hope he is well. I don't know, I don't think he's russian,
but I do think that his his, I think he has a grassroots following. I don't think this is an authentic. The just loves to darker harass. Well Dunk track. I hate this language, as I can on king going to were done really and it's fun now, I'm not I'm not a fan, no, no! No! 'cause, it's just it cheapens all converse you got dunked on you got dragged just like. Oh this is that thing in third grade that I never figured out Well. They found out that he won't engage them, and so they think it's cute just constantly shit on him and they also think it's cute. Take anything that he says an interpret it in the worst possible way possible and not think of it. ' as him just being a guy who's, trying to talk about things on the fly and maybe isn't even prepared about the subject at hand like one of the things that comes up on this show, like you know,
We were talking before we were going to go on there. We talk talk about my out, it's just talk yeah and so when you do that, come on. Let's just talk thing: you never know what the fuck is going to come, up and you might have a piss really formed idea of what a subject is. If you just are ramble yeah, that's what I've done. My two previous, not, but it seems You know it's easy to think that you did that, but with Dave off moments where he's misstepped, where they just feel like okay, we got a wounded, antelope, yeah they're, trying to pick him off, and you know I think there was probably a to do Shapiro and there was a period where you were seemingly in the crosshairs, but your hard to kill, and you know I have no doubt I was in the crosshairs, we've been noticing, see, that's that's the benefit of
not paying attention, and this is something that I've been pretty rigorous about over the last six months of the years you SAM Harris and Dave Rubin have all given me versions of this advice, and I worry about it because I'm not large enough yet that I have been the target of a steady campaign. But what happens? Is you see people's feedback loops interrupt and in part to course correct. You kind of want to know what was I too harsh with that guy like when I went on Jordan Peterson on Dave Show. I was more aggressive because I think I'd seen and and Brett on your show together and I come from an ethnic family, be wrapped each other? That's normal in Jordan is an interrupter and so um. What I found is is that I probably was into eating that I had to be more forceful, a lot of the comments that wow Eric. I haven't really seen you. This aggressive was there three of you on a conversation.
It started off Dave, Jordan and myself, and then Ben Shapiro came in for an hour and I think SAM Harris might have been schedule to come in and remember, there's an issue always with more than one person. There's a reason: why do one on ones almost exclusively like? Even when I had Bob Lazar with Jeremy Corbell? just having a third person that wants to chime in, like often interrupts. The flow of conversation like in that case because I wanted to lock in on Bob Lazar. I wanted to get all my feed, but I want to find out. Is this guy full of shit like I want to? I want to lock in with them and with there's another one and another, and also and also is another person who they have a good thing to say it's a distraction. It becomes a problem. You never know when one of these is going to work when one of the when it works it can be magical. And yes, when it doesn't, you know it's a little bit like jazz guys if that group is meant to be.
Then they don't trip over each other solos they're, trying to come up with something even with three great friends. I have this issue, I mean if I was in great stuff with multiple people on your show and stuff that doesn't work right, and you know you know the other, the other night we had them by Bryan Callen is fast becoming one of my favorite people in the world us over and was Fastening, it was all guys who could rip your head off. Not your head off the could certainly rip my head off and very thoughtful ones at that there were people from all different ethnicities. My wife was the only female, and one of things I found astounding was that everybody was taking the piss out of each other and it was the most intimate positive, loving kind of a an environment. You imagine where people joking about each other's ethnicity, their religion and I had to remind myself about how men actually manage intimacy and closeness, and it's not
the way women do it and appreciate on each other. We shit on each other and it's friggin impo to how we do business and increasingly I have this idea that need that in my life. Well, we have to check each other to see if each other is taking each other seriously. You have to make you're, not taking yourself too seriously. I didn't feel like lots of jokes were made at my expense. I was probably the only guy there who wasn't. You know some form of a combat sport veteran. You know there were a couple of jokes at my expense on that are a couple jewish jokes: I felt terrific leaving that place. There was no part of me that Like wow. I really got haze, but I hope I got through it. I mean these guys were just so positive and generous of spirit. Brian is one of the best of that he's so silly like most of his podcast that he does and then with me and him out pretty cool podcast, we've known each other for ever. We've been best friends. Since
one thousand nine hundred and ninety four- is that right. Yeah I mean guys I got smart. I love him so much that I broke up with this girl and Brian she was. She was calling me because she was horny and I was look. I have a new girlfriend, but I have a friend Q and he's just like me this, I sick Brian on my ex girlfriend and he fucked her one of the fun this conversations, I ever had with an ex girlfriend. She calls me up. She goes your free came inside me and I went what she goes yeah your fucking friend came inside me and I was like well. Did you tell him that you're on the pill? She was no, no, no on the pill well. I don't know what to tell you. You know that's Brian should work that out and call you up mad. Because your friend exactly
aided inside of our. It was one of them all. I I hung up the phone. I literally fell to the ground laughing. I was lying on my back on the floor, my house, what like it's just so rich ridiculous, as Bryan Callen, So I called them up, and I said you what happened and he's like whoops. It was just such a ridiculous conversation, but I've been They got forever. So all of our conversations so like that all of our conversations are like jokes hazing and on each other, but it's all hugs and love for me now: yeah, okay, yeah, so positive and generous, and you know the one funny thing I was looking at his instagram and he's seated next to I know it can't remember, was it cheetah now you're a wild cheetah in Africa and is talking with it.
To get up in the morning perhaps will hold together well into look nearby he's. Clearly this is that yeah a real cheetah yeah it does, but she has her interesting when you're actually pet them. It's weird, I think like it was a game reserve. I see like one of the site so far closer to me. No, no, no yeah, a lot of that is in Africa, not in terms of like, like there or they're, not pets, yeah. They're so used to people, because people always go on safari there, and apparently you can get real close to the in some environments, but is in particular a lot of people, keep them as pets, It's like you, see like a lot of sheiks like rich. Guys in the Middle EAST, be driving around in their fucking Amg wagons, with a cheetah next to them cheat on a leash and the cheetahs just cool with it see nobody. Nobody! Nobody is that with hippos If you want to go next level, yeah that wouldn't work out, hippos just decide to fuck you up yeah what is this in the hippos hippos are like. There are cousin to pigs in there
yeah there a ruthless fucking animal. Oh now I see it, they don't play any games yeah. For vegetarians: it's not even like that, where their food they are, it just turns, but let Delia and eat me. I know the their cable. So dear, you know dear and cows, the Lee birds we're not going back into that vampire deer thing that no non freaked me out last but dear oftentimes, eat birds, the ground, nesting birds, there's a lot of it. Of it like people, don't want to believe it. They think the you know the GC grass as most the time they do, but they they will eat a bird if they get a chance. You know they know it's food yeah, it's weird yeah and they have an urban forests digestive tract, but okay delete bird there's a lot of videos. I guess I've been really fascinated by the number of species in which some human, like totally deadly species, were some humans, decide I'm going to dedicate my life to hanging out and not getting eaten hyenas.
Some asshole. That is he's he's hanging out with hyenas on the on the internet and petting them. They. They seem really playful and friendly. Real sweet drill, weird This guys like nuzzling, these hyenas. Imagine choosing that's your system. That is an animal that bites so fucking hard. They have they have. One of the strongest bites ever measured, because their whole thing is just smashing bones and trying to get out the nutrition that the lions leave behind so they're, all just about crushing bones, so their whole face is designed to smash bones, and you know they're, they're fucking see here's the guy he's hanging out. Where is hyenas, he plays with them. Look at this, but asshole with them there. They seem to think he's like there buddy look, there are biting, but their gentle, I mean they could rip his arm clean off, but they're biting his leg and
he's not going with them letting raised his face. I do not know, I do not know I think a lot of these have to do with imprinting yeah for sure yeah. Well, that was the thing with my friend Phil Demers, who worked at marine land. One of the reasons why he's so furious at them? Much 'cause he's got a walrus named smooshy and the walrus imprinted with him when it was really young walrus things, that's his mom, okay, that he rather the walruses mom. You know so he's just on this fucking furious quest to get this walrus released and the shut down this shithole known as Marineland yeah he's been. Food forever. He's been involved in lawsuits as long as I've known him and he's been coming on this podcast for years for years, been trying to boost his signal and trying to get the word out and then, when black fish came out, that sort of really turned the tide where people a chance to see what orchid captivity is really like. They were like holy shit. This is horrific. It is
absolutely barbaric anyway his up? That's that's a his! This walrus come from him. He gave me the last call that yeah that sits there for Phil, that that sits on the desk for fellow who who's the hall of Fame here on the desk. Is there a camera over there? So this is These are all little little little statuettes from the comp called plastic cell and plastic cell is? How do you say, Fong's name Tran is amazing artist, whose created all of these little little little fish greens? This is Rory, Macdonald who's, Elite, UFC better, Bruce Lee notorious Bg, that's my dog Marshall. Marshall has one that's Maine Tupac Mcgregor Connie, and then that is a different one. The ball
we had one, that's rich rebuilds he's got this really dope, really dope website or Youtube Channel, where he he's the only by that I know of that's ever rebuilt a Tesla. He bought a wrecked, and then bought another one and put the parts together and figured out how to make it work and the test. So people do not like him, they don't like these. And now he's made a place called the electrified garage in Massachusetts where he He is working on teslas in electric vehicles outside of their ecosystem, so he's doing it on his own. It like an independent Eslam Massachusetts, you think he's going to hybridize with Boston. Then no he's an independent guy. That would be cool he's. Not how do you say his last name right it looks like Benoit, but it's Benoit, very cool guy. He was on the podcast recently hey what happened? What do we know about the Connie situation where you could talk about mental health?
I was kind of excited about that. I you know if he wants to, he can do it, I'm not yeah. Don't he's he's. He's is own something he is a brilliant artist, but oftentimes brilliant artist. It's not it's not the best format for them to just talk like sometimes it's better for them to express. Themselves through their work. Maybe, although I found I spent two days with- and I found that when he's in a relaxed frame, his flow state is just it's beautiful, talking to him? I talk to him on the phone. I really enjoyed our conversation with a nice conversation he's, I think, he's a very good, dude, very sensitive human yeah, very cool guy, but This is not a relaxed environment. You know this right here. Everybody knows how many people are listening, it's just a peoples head, really, because the illusion that I have is just me talking. Then I come out of here in people
what did you say? Well, you- and I are friends so that illusion is more maintained when you don't know me and you come in and I mean I would have to be friends with them and that's one of the things you wanted me to come to his church. You know he's got he's running a cult, essentially everybody's wearing white or all dancing doing religious stuff. I do that. I'm busy man so you're busy. Yes, I am is a family targets. That is a fairly well I run into I just I get it. I think it's beautiful yeah, but I'm not he and I were walking down the road and you know there was this crippler scrap the crypt from Long Beach said. You know you better stay in Calabasas. It was like a little bit of a tense situation. Sort walking along the road and like
people were hanging out of the windows of their car Kanye, and it was just like positive. You know like write, make contact, but it was very disconcerting and this guy was preternaturally calm. You know he was just like Mmm. I was nervous. How long does this this when on was well the we talk in a year or less, I think, is probably a year ago, it's probably medicated not anymore, is that right, yeah yeah! He talked openly about the fact that last six months or so he's been off of his medication, and he whatever they had him on, was fucking with him creatively. Oliver had this chapter and the man who mistook his wife for a hat about a drummer with Tourette Syndrome, and then he took a drug to control the Tourette Syndrome and guys? Drumming became kind of monotonous, very regular, but like not creative,
yeah you look. What that I've got inside of him he's so prolific. I mean you listen to his music, it's so interesting and eclectic and prolific he just constantly turning out more great shit. He doesn't have any flops. I mean his music is pretty fucking amazing and he's just that's his Jetman. He knows how to just get in there and cream heat and he's got this whirlwind going on in his mind, he's fearless studies he is explorer and only into the details, but one of the things that really impressed me was he would go to places that I'm too scared to go to in my own market and well just you know, thinking about out your inadequacies and externalizing them in your vulnerabilities and knowing you know what is going to emasculate you and his point is like I'm so comfortable with myself,
that I'm in it mine that as a source of art, because I bet it's in everyone- and you know- by exploring these contradictions- and these false fronts in you know, he's he's Carl a level of internal access, I'm actually quite interested in the mental health aspect of this, which is there's so much what was so much mental on health as we as we term it that I don't think it's all mental and health. I do think that there's something about the artistic process. That seems to be very informed by states that we call in health yeah. Well, we require people to stay inside these rigid boundaries and these rigid boundaries there gray but if you want to show up at a job and work nine to five and don't use certain noises with your mouth because it makes people upset. You know, but that's not for,
the creative process. If you look at true outliers, if you want to discuss true outliers, like people that are really capable of producing extraordinary, art or architecture works, different, interesting things that are part of the creative process. People are all unwell every single one of them I mean in terms like, like you made made, do do what a normal person has to do day. I think normal life is is unwell in terms of this, this requirement of going up five minutes early working all day, long getting off, maybe bring some of your work home, getting some sleep getting up in the morning and doing it all over again, all while raising a family and trying to enjoy your time your limited finite time on this planet. Well, this is what I said: I've left, so you left is that it's not healthy here. So where are you well um
Maybe maybe this is a good segue. I hadn't thought about it this way, but so can we use this format to announce that I am in fact starting the podcast I've recorded a couple boom episodes already. The cannon is, it is called the portal to Portal yeah. So the portal is to. This very interesting thing that I thought everyone was aware of, but very often people wouldn't react to it when I was a kid, I read all of these stories that I thought were. Known to be the same story but different versions of it, and I called it the portal story and it It's always the same. Somebody is trapped in a humdrum existence in an ordinary world.
Until some sort of magical portal accidentally or on purpose enters their life and either they go through a wardrobe. They go through a rabbit hole. Looking glass platform, nine and three slash four um or you know, Dorothy famously was used to introduce technicolor where she, the first part film, she's in Kansas and it's a sort of grey scale, black and white, and then she and lands in OZ and they opened the door in its technicolor and there's this transitional scene um, where you see technicolor for the first time. Was that the first time ever in a movie believe so and and so the question is Where'S- the portal Why do we tell the same story over and over and over again with different protagonists? But it's always the same formula. It's somebody
is trapped in an ordinary world. They're sort of there were around normies. They find the portal in the portal becomes. The call to adventure and they spend time in the alternate universe. And then somehow they're able to live very often they return. If you remember the phantom tollbooth Milo gets this present of a car in a toll booth and he goes through the toll booth and what is that from Norton Juster was the author and Jules Pfeiffer was the deal striations. It was just his brilliant book uh, where there's like the land of letters in the land of numbers. So it's arts and sciences on, and you know like there's, ah there's a person who starts from his head and grows down until his feet, reached the ground and there's a numbers mine and he has to rescue the princesses of rhyme and reason. In order to restore,
order between the two kingdoms of like left and right hemisphere in some. Incredibly, exciting story, and the idea is that after he goes and does all of these there's an island called and when you make an assumption, you leap to conclusions, so you suddenly jump it's all very clever, wordplay and stuff at the end, adventure. The toll booth disappears because has to go to the next kid who needs you know, and so my question was always why on earth would we tell the same story over and over and over and over and over again has the same format and it's always a different context. And I came to believe that the story is actually this unkept promise for most people that in their adult lives they don't find these portals so for it
have you ever been to Barcelona, Spain? No, there is a church in Barcelona, Spain, which is plenty impressive from the outside. When you go inside and look at pictures of it, my entire life called La Sagrada. Yah. It is a psychedelic drug trip and one slash two like you've, never seen it is the most bizarre interior space I've ever seen in my life. Can you bring up the interior of this thing, whoa and On the one hand, it induces like a hallucinogenic state. On the other hand, it's an idea of what this architect Galati. Now God is very famous. He did a lot of buildings around Barcelona. There is nothing like the inside of this church on this planet and um wow fuck, that's beautiful, and if you look up at the roof, wow
Oh and, like you know, most things, you're sort of prepared for them your whole life, and then you see it and you think I guess I guess that's cool, I've been seeing this thing my whole life and I had no no concept of what a genius this human being was because nothing he did um really outside of it The outside of it I mean look this guy. If he never did the inside of this church, he would be a very famous and idiosyncratic architect wow, but they didn't work on Quite finished it in effect, he's such a such a genius that can't finish it in the style that he started. Because nobody knows it's like an unfinished symphony. What would you do nobody's smart enough to finish this church wow? Look at the roof on that okay. Now that is a portal. Rather, that is a portal right and.
When we when, when I was on this program before you know, I thought long and hard. What is it that I could push out to the planet to let people know how wonderful and beautiful the world that we live in is, and we pushed out the Hopf fibration and suddenly, if your call, I said to the people, this is the most important object in the universe, not the hot fibration particular, but the class called the principal bundle which people have no idea it's out there, and it is the basis of the construct in which we live. So how is it that a normal human being can make contact with real physics with a know, real beauty of biology, or you know, just understanding, orders symmetry all of these things that are beyond normal experience and what I hope to do with the podcast is
to have amazing guests an interesting conversations, but to speak of thank you for that that guy was on drugs. That guy was he was drunk. See with us. You know. Remember, that's with Dolly said to me is a dolly due to drugs he said. I am driving right. Another spaniard Spaniards are really something, but that is very similar to psychedelic states. Well, maybe some people have access to them all the time right in part. Well, this is actually an illustration that sits above our sink out there from a guy who has tumor in his pituitary or is nicer Terry Gland, his uh. What is the one that the one that they think produces D m t? What the fuck is? It called not the pituitary gland, no Pineal pineal. Thank you. He has a tumor. Thank you, tumor in his pineal gland. And so he he accesses the states all the time
this. Guy has it's one hundred percent DMT inspired artwork, I mean, if you look at it. This is What you see when you do DMT trips, it's like it's the version you know it in his style of art, but you can see the you see the signature, DMT there. It is there's this artwork. What is his name? Sean Thornton, Shawn Thornton. Sean thanks for the artwork. It's fucking awesome. It sits in our kitchen I'll, take a picture of it later and put it online, but um. That's his stuff, like that's super d m t like I mean, that's a thing, a trip to mean type experience at you, like you could say, like Alex Grey is probably the most. Representative, I would say, he's the most representative in terms of artists in the DMT space in terms of tryptamines and Psilocybin
is on those lines, and so, if you think about psychoactive chemicals, some of them are stupefying, but some of them are portals yeah. And this concept of, if you look at a wall, how do you know that the wall doesn't have a door? How do you know that there is in a panic room behind the bookcase? If you just pull out the right book, We are, we learn to stop looking for the portal and I think what I, what I do differently than other people is that I became obsessed with exits, that there are other worlds and they're real that this. This mythology of the looking glass in the rabbit hole in the matrix is metaphor for
very real things, and that we just we live our lives in the most ordinary mesoscale phenomena. Where you know we don't see um, we don't see the quantum because we're not playing with polarized lenses. In ways that show us what light actually is um, you know we're not playing with superfluid helium were not uh understanding, um, just how bizarre olfaction is, or you know whether there's some sort of quantum aspect of biology and what you see people doing is that their they, They start grasping for everything like I'm, not saying that there's nothing to ancient aliens or ufos or whatever, but a lot of that is just people want something richer. And more more amazing for their lives and I'm not going to pass too much judgment on that
but I am going to say if we just restricted that the rest of our days to the provable stuff that we know is out there. It could be amazing people. Need more meaning with all of the rationality, with all the mystery we've taken out of the world, it's time to put a ton of it back in when you say, put put a ton of it back in, like I got put it back in well, You know if I were to start talking about the octonion's and eight dementia number system, that no one understands I do that orderly rigorously. I can show you all sorts of bizarre stuff involving the octonion's. What is the octona? Well, that's my point. You don't even know that there are four types of numbers whose dance called the real numbers that we know complex numbers that were tortured once with in high school. Maybe during some kind of a trip a friend of you mentioned the court
mention mentioned the quaternions to you and then there's this one system of numbers, which is like the crazy relative. Nobody discusses and that's called the octonion's and the octonion's are so weird that mathematicians, don't even really understand. Why they're there telling him that thing well. My guess is that that's probably back to the root root root. Lattice of v, eight, which we discussed last time, which is this kind of money- Mandela pattern to it. But I could show you their multiplication table. I could describe their symmetries there's a symmetry group called G2 which involves these strange numbers, but it's a mystery like if I got to I I probably know more about the AC tony ins than most mathematicians. If I got to the end of all of my knowledge of the act own Ian's, I still wouldn't know what to tell you about why they're there and what they mean. Nobody knows. I promise that's a real mystery now we could talk about. Like you know, my friend said that that event
happened in Siberia in the early you know, 20th century was actually an alien visitation. Well maybe, yes, maybe no. I don't know anything about it. If I just focused us online, what we know is out there that we don't grasp, which is one hundred percent rocks off, it, provides so much mystery and meaning an invitation to adventure like if you're looking for a hero's journey are you a ton of these things and it's empowering it's just incredibly, it's incredibly empowering to know that you're, a hair's breath away from super powers. So I want to help people explore that. So what is that like, when you're explaining this, when you saying this is bizarre series of numbers right? What is it doing like? What? How do we interface with it? Well so, for example,
They could easier system that we feel a little bit more confident. There's this thing called the quaternions which are bad. On the number one, the complex number, if you remember that from some distant math class and then there's something called so I J K J one K equals I J Times. I is equal to the negative of I times J, so negative k, there's a multiplication table for these. These objects and these objects help with vision. You know, computer simulation, 3d projections. There used all the time in probably video games,
they may come up in nature. I mean we know that nature uses complex numbers and most people never found out why they were being told about complex numbers are imaginary numbers because they never got to the point where you're actually looking at wave functions that describe photons and electrons, and all of all of that good stuff that you read about physics. So in essence, the Octonian Tsar system, where Ijk keeps going effectively through Lmnop Q, you know till you've got eight different objects and they're, not even associative, which is one of these rules that you learn about. You know, Multiplication is associative and you think well, what is an Associated if you, if you talk about commutativity, for example, I can't tell whether you put on your shirt. First or your shoes? First, because it's commutative as to which order you did it. But if you put on your underwear in a different order than you put on your pants, that will become immediately obvious, which order you did it right there,
Another thing called associativity and almost everything that we deal with in elementary mathematics is social issues like. Why do I learn about about and never never been, that is, is associated with the in Venus Ocean The number system that is responsible for most of the Plata of Mathematics, if you will things that just occur anomalously. So that's an example of an invitation out of this planet. You know If you start to think about the ac, Tony ins and care about them say, are they a message? Do they have meaning we can prove that they're there construct them for you but they generate so much bizarreness in some sort of abstract space. How are they recognized like how was it? How did it come to be that this is a point of discussion? Well, there's, there's a process. In fact there to process is where you can build Thes number systems up from each other, so you build the complex from the real you build the quatrain Ian's from the complex you build, the Ac Tony ins, from
The quatrain Ian's and then you can't build anything beyond that, because each time you're giving up a magical power to get to the next stage. By the time you get to the turning your exhausted. The swiss say, give give him a magical power. Well like, for example, it's very hard to think about the square root of negative one so like what does it mean for something square to be negative right? So that's like the complex numbers gave up that of sensibility and then the complex numbers are at least community of eight times B equals B times a, but the quatrain Ian's don't have that process property? So then you have a further property called associative, it so you're sort of t. To build the next system, you're, giving up properties that sort of makes sense to us and by the time you got into the act means you've, given everything away, there's no way you're going to build the next system, but yet it's real yes, yet it's real
in this in a in a very real mathematical sense. So does it just highlight our lack of understanding, yeah and it, and it is a call to adventure. It's like a message from something that isn't human, not to say that it's God, I'm not gonna, say that its logic or design, but it's a more complex. It's something some of the universe! That's right, and you have to cover that these things are there or, for example, you know c elegans. I don't know if you've played with the do. You know about cell, no, all right c, L, U C, L against C letter, uh, elegance and l again, like a Genz. I think it's okay. So it's this worm that was chosen by this guy Sydney, Brenner who just died- and it's a shame, because he would have been a great podcast guest, just like one of most brilliant biologists that we didn't focus on and he said you know what we're missing a species that we can completely describe soup to nuts. Here's the one! That's about the simplest thing with the brain. It's only got a fat
one thousand cells and three hundred of those cells make up a very primitive neural system and we're gonna track where every goddamn cell, like bring up Jamie. If, if I could ask to bring up the cell lineage diagram for c elegance. This would be the first of two images. Well, that is a complete map of how one fertilized egg becomes a tiny microscopic worm for every possible. What the fuck am I looking at? I love when you say that that is so yeah right now. Here's the thing Everyone in biology knows how cool this thing is, and very few people, not enough people outside of biology, that we have
please Lee mapped how one cell, like, if you're thirty trillion cells around it's too big, to write a diagram. It's only possible Is there only one thousand cells, and this thing has locomotion. It has sexual reproduction. You know it eats so you're. Looking at the architectural plans for an actual organism and Jamie when we're done with that. If I could trouble you for the for the folks that are just kind of pause for a moment for the folks that are following at home. Listening just listening, not watching what we're looking that Jamie explained how someone could see this image if they want to do with themselves. The letter c not not see like the ocean sea elegance and then that cell lineages it looks like a really long basketball bracket just pushed out forever and that's a good way to describe it. Fucking wild yeah,
June February? It just doesn't stop if we could bring up the wiring diagram or the see elegance wiring to right, yeah, perfect! That is a complete half of the three hundred neurons in the c elegans worm. How they are wired to each other. Like that is a map of the mind of the worm, wow, okay, so that's the portal, That's another portal. Here's an organism which is completely mapped has complex behaviors. It has, I think, about half the number of adult cell types that you and I have to. Maybe we have like two hundred fifty Only two hundred and fifty different kinds of adult cells, more or less- I don't get to get too precise about that
we're like ten trillion or thirty trillion copies of those finding number of different types of cells. Well, I think the c elegans has about one hundred and twenty five or something like that different cell types, and it only has one thousand cells and it's able to do most of what we're able we move around. We have sex, pretty simple life Do you think it's ever possible? Well, I'm sure probably possible, but do you In our lifetime will ever see a map like that of a human organism. I don't think so, but the cool thing is we have this map and we still don't understand it. Like we've got this thing dead to rights, we've got boxed in it. Can't we know, every single cell, what it does we have all the wiring between the neurons. We still don't get it right right so like Imagine that you're eight years is that well what what a genius this guy Sydney Brenner, was for choosing this organism right.
Because this organism is the simplest place to look at complex life. This image of the reconstructed biological neural networks, it's like you're, looking okay! Now we could have a discussion about. I'm weird peruvian structure and whether we have been visited and I'd be up for that look. I'm gonna pretend that I do for, but I know that this is real right. I don't any doubt, I'm not going to sit around asking well. Do you believe that aliens talk to this federal government in the forties right, that might as well be an alien and it's an invitation to adventure, yeah, and we are destroying- I mean you know getting just getting back to. The reason that I'm fighting through culture war issues, which are not very interesting to me, is that weird
destroying the thing that has the ability to make sense of the world right. It's really Did the design and logic e, I mean like the ability to say no, you know you come with an experiment that failed. You know, and you say I think it's succeeded. I say no, it didn't. It felt and you say well. I actually am cambodian and I think you're discriminating against me because I'm cambodian, like look your experiment failed. It has nothing to do t o and you keep that stuff out of my lap, I mean, if you want your war stuff, yeah really what I'm animated by is get your fucking social engineering out of my laboratory you've got ten minutes and I'm calling security. That's my issue. It's not telling people how to be.
Dave or that I have all the answers or that we need to be objective in our lives and we just want sensible to you're coming out. After core reality and our ability to make sense of the world, and so I'm happy to enter all sorts of things you take. One foot. Step. One foot in my lab and I'm calling security, and if I can't do that, if I can't maintain a scientific journal, or you know, for city in which the bullshit departments do not invade the departments that are actually doing the super important work, we're lost and there is a distinction- and I mean this distinction needs to be made. There is a distinction between hard science and gender studies. If you could put pull up Jamie do the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron
yeah? You went all Sean Connery on me. One raise the eyebrows yeah one eyebrow is not like a genetic thing like you can curl your tongue like yeah. I could do Some people can't do that. A over you mean turned upside down, oh no! I can't do that. All right! You got one thing. I got another uh. This is very mature job huh um, but what is going on here, put I'm looking for a number like ten or eleven significant digits. We're able to do calculations in Quantum electrodynamics, let's say quantum field theory in which we can figure out the precision of something we can predict it toe like ten or eleven decimal places of accuracy, and when I look at the the achievement that was necessary,
to have theory, agree with experiment to that level, and then I listen to some of the discussions about how just take these hoaxes about you know somebody submitted parts of mine comp to you, know with Jews written as men, Peter Cozy in right, two Subjects are taking place in the same institution, one is incredibly rigorous in in demanding and completely unforgiving, and the other thing is just like frivolous and nonsense. Well, maybe there's a or of it that makes sense, but there's it's not gonna get anywhere close to the achievements of the of the Hard Sciences, but the the core of it. Whether or not it makes sense. The real. The real problem is the motivation for doing in the first place, so the real motivation may be activism but active in activism and scholarship. Aren't I mean that there's so many things that I want to be true. That just aren't I want beautiful, I mean like
you know nature. You spend time in nature. You want to think you like nature community and the forest bunch of different organisms, all working together. Now it's red of tooth and claw everything that you think about the universe. That is surely beautiful inspirational, is contradicted by some system in nature, and that's, why evolutionary theory was the first thing on the chopping block. It's just like. Well, this then we want to claim about organism. Well, tough luck. I feel like there's a weighted to find this clearly that makes people understand it better. I don't I don't know if I'm the guy to do it, but I feel like someone there's a. This is an incredibly complex issue right where you, you're dealing with emotions and feelings and people who feel like there's an justice in the world and inequality. They focus on focus on those things to the point where they're almost per dissipating in social engineering by
ignoring reality and focusing on what they want to be true in sort of this way of imagining the world they are also demanding compliance. This is a big part of this whole right. That's going on here. Then, on the other hand, you've got stuff it's hard sciences that demand just is rich serious intellectual debate demand care. Study of the facts. They demand understanding of complex mathematics in order to achieve these results and to be able to verify that their unforgiving unforgiving, there's just there to toll, different things and what you're saying is when one of them it is this sort of for frivolous, airy kind of Utah. Phillipian version of what they like the future to be and interferes
right where they want a certain amount of diverse people on the staff, and I'm not even saying that it's for a list, I'm not even saying it's, not scholarship. I'm saying that whatever it is, I don't care, maybe maybe it's maybe it's. Some beautiful social thing. What do you do then? They'll hit you with you, don't care because you're, a white male and you have white male privilege, and I don't what I realized is that is important in as inclusion is exclusion is equally important in that instant. You say that I don't know you the time of day. What does that mean by exclusion? Well important? We keep talking about diversity and inclusion, diversity, inclusion in college and there's an implicit threat in that, which is what makes it really juicy and interesting which is like well. Let's look at us with, three white guys in here. This Jamie, you and me speak speak to yourself on one point, six percent african elected to recognize that I knew I knew it was going to play that card. But you say
can pass is white right. Yes, okay, now. In order to have the objection There's some little bit of guilt, which is like well. Why aren't there? Any people from Cambodian here is that we are really anti cambodian. If you, carry that guilt. You're, always worried that you have to be able to prove that you're inclusive doesn't matter right right, okay, it is also important to exclude certain voices from the conversation, so the voice that plays the card which says well, you're only saying that, because X, I don't have to listen to that voice, and I think this is really important. That is not a voice that needs to be answered. It's not a voice that. Needs to be taken seriously or paid attention to. Unless there's some serious allegation that there there's been some kind of discrimination inclusion. The burden of proof is on you
for saying why that's interesting in a particular conversation, the burden is on you to explain why that's interesting friend! Well, for them they're trying to engineer a more fair and balanced society. If I was gonna take their perspective, there would say that the reason why there aren't more more women in science or trans people in science or feel. But I'm also trying to engineer a world where there are more women in science, how you doing that by trying to figure about what is it that selecting against women, for example, that we need to get and more money, as I said on this program earlier in their lives, so they can hire help to help raise their children. So they can spend more time on their careers and balance women don't find that attractive. They don't want to do that, maybe
but I'm trying to think. But my point is- is that there are lots of reasons that men and women are different right. So, for example, I saw a beautiful video of a guy who jumps down enormous flight of stairs on a skateboard and he just nailed the landing, and it's just a thing of art, Then it shows you one hundred and fifty attempts where this kind schist, abused his body and failed, maybe broke a blood everywhere and you're thinking? Oh. You showed me the success. You didn't show me that this guy was willing to put his brain his life on the line in order to nail that trick and he's actually one of the world's falling champions right? Okay, well when you start saying well, why are you putting this video of this person who's doing this thing? You know on the internet because that person blows to a privileged class. I'm saying: well, I don't know that guy.
Abused himself and put himself at risk, and you know devoted his life in a singular way that no sensible primary would be. I would be appalled if my son did that I'd be furious with it. You there are things that are happening that result in imbalances that aren't about some kind of unfairness, and I think it's very important. The unfairness, Israel and structural blooms Ariel and non structural problems and things that really aren't unfair are also real I think we both agree that it's important for people to have the opportunity to pursue what they enjoy pursuing. I think there is also an issue where we want people to be more represented. We want more. More of that kind, kind of person, that's interested in something when they might not necessarily naturally gravitate towards it, and it might not be there so impediments and that there's some boundaries, some some sort of ah boys club that keeps them out and it
be more they're. Just not that interested in that with that there also is a biologically been right. That's been proven in studies that I try to make it a different point. Okay to me, what I'm trying to say is I made a mistake years ago I think of gauging and answering this point, which is you know what the author take piano: competitions, wire, piano, competitions historically disproportionately, you know that entered and won by Russians or Chester. Who knows what Russians are beasts in the way that they destroy children on their way to the concert stage. They will two things that most american families will not do to produce a concert pianist. Okay, that's not an unfairness for the rest of us. I mean I play the piano. I can't get on stage with these guys because they're just amazing, it's not it's not an unfairness that right, I'm not represented on that stage. You know
If I told you that my intention is to become the world's greatest jujitsu expert at age, fifty three being overweight not having any history in combat sports you Know- and I know that it's not going to happen with the right amount of drugs- JO and engineering, we can do calculus thing, that's true. We can make him better than he was yeah. We need data the stem cells, we're going we're going have to do some really going to take a chance on cancer and all sorts of other diseases, but we can achieve some things that This conversation that we're trying, but you need to develop, you need to develop. It needs to be a part of your well there's thing that I would say about. Striking sports striking sports are probably one of the more interesting ones in that when you start out on an early age, your body develops learning how to strike and said gigantic advantage over some
one who learns once they're past puberty when you get someone who's learning, how to strike and they're in their 20s. It takes a real outlier to become super successful, it's very, very rare, but I remember being in a fistfight in throwing a punch and not connecting and hurting my yeah. That happens all the time. Oh, I didn't stand. If it's not free, you know it's like a very, very now, all you've got is your left arm and you got really pissed off person across from you was thing back to is I wanted to talk about in part the portal and how it relates to the whole sort of weird social justice thing. The key point is I'm not that interested in the culture wars, I'm interested in the pipeline of amazing stuff. That is unforgiving right. Don't you think that, along the way you have to kind of address at the culture wars are thing try to figure out.
Why there are thing trying to figure out what the main points and main factors that are responsible for it being a thing and is there a way to mitigate its impact on progress? So this is I'm concerned that the culture wars are going to keep girls black people, whoever short people- I don't know what out of the things They want to do why, because not being honest about what it actually what involved in selecting against people, so you brought up the issue of interests. So, like the Google memo, the James Damore issue, is a great example: publicly, okay, but my my wife went on Dave, Rubin, show and know look. This is a woman who brought techniques of gauge field theory into economics, so just no slouch when it comes to analytic thinking. She's a mage feel three similar to gauge symmetry. That gauge theory
the gauge wasn't she wasn't doing, she wasn't doing quantum theory, but she was taking she her thesis thesis brought techniques of bundle. Theory like the Hopf vibration we had and showed the economics without any alteration, was a mature geometric system in the gauge theoretic idiom, so they didn't ask we collaborated on on showing that you can accommodate changing preferences in economics without gauge their so was kind of pretty amazing was really great, great fun. The. She her point was: I Didn'T- enjoy the unpleasantness of sing on these things because they were so abstract and so
I want you know. I was interested in people was interest. Did in making sure that our models could capture, Human dynamics better and you know I was just really excited by the collaboration we were doing, which is you know she and I came from two different worlds and we found this bridge between them um. So she went in Dave, Rubin and said: look it's not about abilities. Women are as smart as men. Its interests were not in listed in the same things necessary and that could be away, but when she said it on Dave, Rubin Show didn't register anywhere. Then date, though James Damore said it and like the old freaks how brave, but that's also because he said it within the environment of Google. He just wasn't on the podcast, if you just said, but if he had said that same exact thing and he was an employee of Google and he was on a podcast. Even it was a popular podcast, I don't think you would,
create a song with an issue that drew me in was the fact there is a will in the fact that you can get paid for these. You know these weird sort of specter me skills. Yeah, you know guilty on the what I care about, I really enjoy doing isolated things in the absence of other people that have a very technical nature to them, and you know my experience in general is that you know I've had female collab gators in very technical subjects, fewer women are interested in things that involve isolation and technical things removed from human interaction, and so that statement will undoubtedly cause a flurry of activity and
if a if a person says it was not suspected of trying to keep women out of something like my point is I want a much more equal world, but I have a very different diagnosis as to why the world is is unequal as it is Your diagnosis is that it's unequal, because people have varied interests and that, but also like thing is dumb is KEN work. Kill women take care of sick relatives. Children and the elderly at a level that most men can't be bothered with you know this is like yeah. I don't care, You know you've got all of these guys hyper focused on their career, who are doing the equivalent of jumping down flight of stairs on a skateboard? You know? Maybe it's not healthy and then another group of people who is like saying you know I want to have children, I want to stay home with the kids for a couple of years, because it's really important in terms of their development and bonding and all these things- and I say absolutely
You create a financial product that gets you money early in your life when you need it, Then you know, maybe you pay something out when you like. It's just a different diagnosis as to what the problem is. It's not all oppression part. His resources and financial products. Part of it is interest. Part of it is the field being set up in a way that is biased. I do believe in structural oppression. I just don't believe in the level of structural pressure. The remedies for stuck structural oppression. Like if we don't we're losing many of the best minds that are on female shoulders. We just are there's no question about it in my mind and rather than saying what mean by we're losing them. They exit the system, they exit the system they get through. The like, let's say
be a cz and stem subjects, a lot of them enter Phd programs like. Let me give a very simple example from the Harvard Math Department from years ago. I think Harvard had this weird thing where it would very often allow one woman in a year to the Phd program in mathematics That person usually felt isolated and would often kind of leave the program. And then one year, a female who has admitted deferred, so that meant that there were two women starting the next year and they formed a support network and they both got through and then other women came in after them. So it's like. Oh that's interesting. We just learn something all right. If you, if you let women and in pairs, maybe they're going to do better and then then maybe three will do better or four will do better. Okay, I'm totally up for that kind of, remediation up until we can build up enough female experience. So, that women have role models. It's really helpful to be able
look at a senior female researcher, go to her and say how did you do it? You got married, you had kids, you had a very successful career. How did you come back You know one of the things I found I used to be interested in this problem and I found that a lot of the women in the 1950s were very successful in stem subjects. Had a lot of money or their husbands had stable jobs that allowed them to. Use nannies and housekeeping in order to free themselves from drudgery. Well, that was an unadvertised feature of the system because that's not available to everyone. That's it. It's a feature where financial, privilege, actually enabled somebody to stay in science. So you know the issue isn't question, inclusion or exclusion of groups. It's a question of how are you so sure that everything is structural oppression? That's that's. The weird thing, and if you can launch that objection cheaply, if you just say I can
any group and say why is this group have no one in the wheelchair? Now I've got to spend thirty minutes explaining that right. I don't want to do it. It's not a good enough objection like if we're gonna make it progress. Let's actually make progress that matters rather than making ourselves feel good. Why do you think that this Social justice movement has reached such hysterical levels over the last decade will couple things one. I think that Certain positions became like the failing business traditional media meant that it you couldn't actually employ people at the same level that you could employ them before. So a lot of people who didn't have huge opportunity costs entered journalism? was. It mean by huge, opportune. Let's imagine, for example, that you're very ideological.
And somebody offers you a fifty and dollar year, job which allows you to be ideological or you could take one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year? Job and ideology isn't a large part of of uh the offer Only the ideological people are going to give up one hundred thousand dollars a year for the privilege of activism. So in part, when you have a face business model. You start select, is a system of selective pressures. It's going to start selecting for very different people. So that's one of the things that's going on is that you have very economically frustrated people does the silent generation started a problem, the baby boomers amplified the hell out of it. Genic still waiting to take its place in society in the millennials just don't even see a path through in a standard, nobody's putting a nobody's glass
scotch in their hand in a cigar in their mouth and saying, come with me kid. Let me show you how it's done. Well. Isn't it also, partly because the discussion is out there and the discussion is a very attractive one, the discussion One of the reasons why you haven't gotten by in this world is because of inequality and because of some sort of systemic racism or systemic sexism or systemic home of to be or transphobia and it becomes when you give people an option to fi an excuse, they grab hate towards that when you create safe space and you, coddle and you make all these pieces are in place- is many many many moving parts right I think all these little pieces are in place where we also have these men of echo chambers because of social media. We have these people that you know. Find ideologically similar human beings and they bounce off of each other, but we're all real problems like I have an intersects friend, I'm assuming somebody who's indeterminate
male and female physiologically. So, okay, let's imagine that they have some profile developmental process did not produce an ambiguous, genitalia. Okay, okay! Is that a hermaphrodite? I don't want it: okay, just inner stance. Okay, there's a person, I think a pretty terrific and I look at all the forms. That's a male female. I just you know my heart sinks. We're not in Trans. Here we're talking about somebody whose biological card that they were dealt could have been. You could have been me and through no choices at all. This person, and is being shoehorned into a paradigm which puts them in risk of suicide. It breaks my heart. We should change it. We should break the male female dichotomy absolutely now I have a different feeling about Trans, but-
if we solve the issue of Intersex, which is not pressuring just accepting that some tiny percentage of the population which is not vanishingly small, just not large, neither unambiguously male and female in terms of genotype, phenotype concordance, we will do most of the necessary to take care of our trans folks who are suffering too not trans is a much more rich world, because there, one million different issues taking place entrance and they're all conflated part of it, because elemental biology. Part of it because gender really in some sense, is socially constructed in a way that, like when people say, mathematics is socially constructed. I have to reject it. Um you and I give this example of like kilts and lung from Scotland in India are skirts, but they're, not female in those
so you have to learn about male and female relative to the codification in your society. The of water, are what are our obligations to recognize? this is really a female mind in a male body- This is a regular mind in a regular body, but needs instruction. All of these things are conflate and I was really hoping that we, if you know if we used Intersex as the test case, to break from the binary, because the binary is an impression. There's no question in my mind about it: because it, let's imagine that I let's say I have persistent mullerian duct syndrome, so I'm FINA typically on the outside mail, and I go to my doctor and says: hey you've got a uterus. What you have a uterus, that's an exotic situation. Maybe I want to identify know because the outside equipment looks male, it's it's
it's a weird situation. Maybe the ideas of this we're talking extremely rare circumstances. Is that really defined it as being a press like what like what is this for for a friend, of mine who is in neither situation. Yeah, it's oppressive you look. Some people are born paralyzed right, some who are born with like soup, serious neurological diseases, don't allow them to be mowed tile. That's right like what is it oppressive if people are just recognize that most people record nice is being able to walk if there was no category called um, this uh disabled right, okay, like you're in a wheelchair, okay, no cat, alright yeah, so you've got somebody. Who's got a spinal cord injury and you have people doing all right, everybody walk this way. What do you mean? You can't walk where you lazy? That's what it sounds like to me
Like it's one thing to recognize that not everybody is in the standard category, but it's another thing to hard code. Hard code Are you talking about job applications? Forms the federal government? Give me a form, there's a binary. It says male or female. Let's imagine it doesn't say other or prefer not to say, so we're just talking about filling out forms, which is how often does that take place in your life, often enough that it represents oppression. Well, you have to define motion or female emotionally emotionally. I think this is oppression. Oppression. I'm look looking really isn't it done under the interests of defining people simply because for the most part you're, dealing with males and females, and
most part, they're, just trying to figure out what's what for their statistics. But you know again, this is this is fun. I'm glad you're asking me these questions because usually I have to be on the other side of this issue, and this is really where my heart is, which is I care about these people, I know that in every single conservative society in the world accommodations made for the failure of simple failure, areas to accommodate the population. There's no society, this uh there's no society is so conservative that they've sorted the world into male and female. You know the famous example of it in IRAN of uh the Ayatollah making a fuss. But that said it's fine to have gender reassignment. We have to nice that every single population produces gender sexual and but isn't that also to get around the idea of homosexuality being a grievous crime because, like I believe in
it's illegal, to have homosexual activity, but you can have gender reassignment. So if you for game- and you can choose to become a female, that's true but there's also a thriving gay scene in Tehran. You know, recognize this and there all sorts of execution of that there was a situation in India, where I I have more experience where you would say: oh those two people, confirmed bachelors know that they're so dedicated to their oceans that there's no room for family and they live together right like traditional societies have every accommodates homosexuality and failures of simple gender binaries, and you know I always bring up the example of Turkish, where Turkish doesn't hard the third person singular pronoun as male or female. It just has one pronoun for both so. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to show where my heart,
Julie has been this entire time, which is, I believe this is oppressive, and I don't think that it presses that many people, but I believe that it's an important oppression, and that we have to realize that we hard coded that was generated a lot of the feelings before we get to trans. You can sim please say from the position of Intersex that the world is a richer place than male and female people say: oh, it's xx versus ex wives. I know it. Isn't it just isn't, for the most part is for the most part it is so in terms of yeah it is it is. It has been an edge case to deal with, but that each case is important to me is the edge case. Human beings. That are not only that I actually I like people who are outside of the norms. I think that probably
larger percentage of those people are going to be more interesting people because they're forged in the fire. So it's not just a case that you know. Do you want to chase a a couple of edge cases, everybody with a really different variance is more important to me than everyone with the standard experience, I think we have to keep take care of the standard case, but I'm absolutely interested in outliers and its case. So. To get back to the to the to the line of thought. Well, that's an important distinction and what you're saying is very important because you are he In one way, someone could pigeonhole you from your earlier your statement that you're not interested in a lot A lot of these different studies grievance studies, a lot of these gender studies you're sending if they interfere with hard science, which you are getting particularly evolutionary biology, you're, getting a lot of interference. You got gotta right and you're
interested in that, but that does not mean that you're, an insensitive person is on it. Shouldn't human beings, you just not interested in the destruction of the acquiring of data, and the analysis of said data. I don't think the activism makes for good. Advancement, what is also a problem with who's, the active it was it and what what age you're talking about and how idealistic these people are, what how what the hell going back to buy all where's their mind at it. How? How formed is their mind. How narrow is their view of what the world is or should be and their impact? You know what what what what's forget about my disagreement. Give where my energy comes from. Let's imagine that you actually believe
that males and females are equally intelligent. I say then your? Then? What would you be you'd be fascinated as to why you don't have one thousand females in an intellectually, depending in equal numbers in in a demanding occupation. So you start saying if I had already assume that males and females are equally it intelligent. I care about different categories. How much of this is about fertility? How much of this is about can work, how much about it of this about structural oppression? How much of this is about path depends. You do some very careful, thing in order to understand your problem and only when you'd finally understood your problem, would you say: okay now I have an idea of how to remediate it. We need a financial product that transfers money from late life to early life, because the huge burden that knocks women out of the stem pipeline might be that they have to take care of
clearly parents or young kids bingo now you're working in a totally different idiom, because you've you've actually come up with a different idea or, for example, if, if you make a few hard coat like Sean Carroll, I think just had a podcast in which he said something to the effect of one on the Idw is kind of into interested in race and iq. Never been interested in racing. Like you, the only time I became interested in race and IQ was when I started hearing. There is apps lutely no variation between groups- and you know, in any kind of cognitive endowment well certain there is in terms of height the ability to radiate heat melanin content of the skinny of sunlight. It doesn't pass the smell test that you could be able to say that a priori it's just it's not a scientific type statement, it's something you have to investigate so in that situation in
listed in in some finding that says, the one group is smarter and other groups are not as smart to. I believe the I q equal smartness. No, I don't believe I cubicle smart. Do I believe that there's no cultural bias. I think there is cultural bias. I you know I've done I'm definitely on record as saying there are ways in which groups that are said to fare less well in terms of iq, demonstrate actually sexual dominance. This is some rich. Weird area, I've never cared about before. The only reason that it becomes interesting to me is that suddenly we're making these incredible proclamations with certainty. Like you know you say this word, or this is absolutely true and like life doesn't work that there's no word in the english language. George Carlin made this point all the time. There are no bad words, there's bad intent. Yes, they're bad people,
Well, isn't it also the issue being a part of a group? I'd The w is too interested in race and iq. I'm not I'm not I mean I'm really not. I don't discuss that at all. I understand, but who is interest? Sam Harris is discussed it before, but he discussed it with someone who is studying. I don't think SAM Carrot. I think that SAM felt that he had SAM felt the Charles Murray. Had been railroaded by him by he SAM Harris and then as SAM came to understand what it is like to have a mob turn on you, SAM said, maybe I'm wrong about Charles Murray and then there is recline made this really interesting point. Really unfair way again SAM, which was basically like, Hey I don't know what Charles Murray is he's a hybrid he's, not just a social scientist. He's also got an agenda. I think so. I have never read Murray's work, but I don't know enough to say either, but I think
curve the whole idea about being able to read Nys the differences in and race and iq. It's like it's a very contentious subject. Both analyze. All I mean look. I have to admit that I don't score that well on certain tests, so I have it built in total skepticism of I Q tests sat test Ac T tests any kind of test, because it's an unnatural examination, not intelligence, it just isn't what is it it's a proxy like there are people who think. Oh, it's really good proxy I'll never met someone who is it really a high? I q, though, that I'd I deem to be intellectually inferior, yeah, but I've met people who don't have a very high accuse. You just blow me away yes well, there's absolutely there's a type of intelligence. A certain people possessed particularly creative intelligence, yeah there's a crew.
They didn't like. There's certain people might not score well on sat test but test but they're, capable of using amazing stuff, whether it's literature comedy whatever it is movies they can make things they can do th They have a genius in their ability, and that requires some. Intelligence requires some. Immeasurable the something that you can and put on a scale. Well. This is know I said to Jordan. I said during Peterson don't think I have an iq because the conceit you have to remember The a priori we would always have guessed that to intelligence. Was many different things? It was a composite of like lots of different types of intelligence. The conceit around IQ is. You'd. Think that was true. But guess again,
Essentially one kind of intelligence. There's one scale, it's a surprise. Oh that's actually spreading. Tell me something of the various forms of intelligence is one of the things that you call intelligence processing. Yes, yes process is very important. Okay, I don't score well on processing. In fact, I don't think anyone in my family has ever scored. Well, what you mean by processing some kind, of mechanical process, of how quick Lee and flawlessly you can encode information play with it and and get it out. You know like if you're dyslexic, but let's take spelling lots of people on Twitter, say how high you misspelled here in fact it's h e, a r in the case that you meant is really just shows me something about your intelligence that you can't keep track of spelling. Okay, that's your level of do you happen to know how many brilliant people can't can't spell can't write? Well, also,
I'm thinking you're just trying to get the word out and you misstep yeah. But, like my mind, you know at some point I got sent home. I think, because I was asked to draw chicken in school and I put two wings in four I'm so non observant like MIKE I hand writing my. Let me sent home yes, something like this. They sent me home. I was like Aber ins or you know I was making fun of the teacher. It was for it. You know famously MRS hero in first grade sent me out of the class, because I said that a spider wasn't an insect because it had eight legs and that She sent you out of class yet because I was well you're correct that case I was in the case of a chicken. I wasn't, but well maybe saw some weird fucking Chernobyl chickens, yeah man, Chernobyl, chicken, chicken, Kiev, that's good! That's comedy cool! My point, my point being that if you don't have a high config, it's net normal metrics, the race and Russian doesn't land to get back to Charles.
So, Charles Murray, It is hard to say he wrote the Bell curve, is either dismissed, as being racist or applauded people who you would call white nationalists who trot out his ideas as proof as men. Visual proof that certain races are superior and you know, We could discuss this human e online people who try those out all the time and they use it to form. These weird groups people that love to hear that right and that smile, of races. So this is the issue which is you have have a situation in which he appeared to. Political orientation, which is that he did want money spent in certain ways and he wanted it spent in others. There there was an in.
Literal interpretation of why he wanted that which was maybe he's a closet racist. Then there was fat. That will tend to empower people are actually racist. But let me pause in there sure, but then there's the actual data right now in Examining the actual data, if you just look at the actual data, is Is it racist to look at the The real numbers like, if you say, Nigerians in particular, who are incredibly industrious and some of the more success immigrant groups? Come over to America also happen to be black. If you I need to look at Nigerians terms in terms of like to, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you want look at them, particularly as a group be very difficult to be racist, you'd have to say well, these are superior. A lot of superior intellects come from Nigeria. They also trot out the asian one right that like this one,
weird things that people like to show that they're, not racist, racist, like look at, shows asians are of a superior iq. I I I puzzle on that one that one's once a month, because I think with certain people. Certain males, let's just go with males, they look at African American and they see superiority in in certain ways. They see superiority. Athletically artistically mu Please look at the contributions of african American. Culturally across the board terms of like the real that the Jimi Hendrix the MILES Davis see beat of thought and creativity analytic, but not just that also athletically like the fucking outliers are just so many there's, so many Michael Jordan's MIKE Tyson Sugar Ray Leonards there's so many african american outlier
to just extraordinary in terms of their accomplishments, but that many asian Americans in that regard. So, It's almost like they'll concede. Like they're, not doing the things that make me jealous okay they're not they're, not getting this insane music. Although there are few right but overall not creating these insane athletic accomplishments that these white Americans can't keep up with so so we'll say, but there's a period will actually. So I can't be racist, I'm pointing out these. Asians, I'm not jealous off, because they don't do the things that I wish that I could do, but then it comes to the African Americans, they're, pointing out all the things that the African Americans can do, that they can't do but they're saying all but they're intellectually inferior by this is I'm not racist. I don't want this to be true, but it seems to be true. I see you see, I'm saying it's like a way of it the way of suppressing accomplishment right while like
false mitigating the impact of the jealousy that they feel. So, if you think about, for example, first that makes sense, I think so. First of all, I just. I hate this top yeah. It's weird topic. It's a weird topic feels greasy even touch well, but now we have to write like this. I feel, like My wrong view of it is, if you'd never brought this thing We would never have had to deal with it and I no longer believe that's true, because we have so much inadvertent data right like I don't want um the data on check, we have an idea of how many grand masters there are and which groups like male female asian black. You know various portions of Europe I don't know what that data means, but I can't stop the data it's going to be generated even if nobody comes up with a standardized test, because it's a game and it scored, and it has something to do with intellectual abilities.
On the other hand, I mean I'm a competitive guy and I you do comedy. I do some some amount of music. I can guarantee you that both of us have had our ass kicked at some point. My african Americans who excel in both of these areas- and I don't mean. All God's children got rhythm, I mean getting out funk in additive situation. You know looking over somebody's shoulder on the keyboard and they're thinking so quickly in so many dimensions? I can't even imagine what the hell's going on right so therefore I never had a lot of fear about it, because I you know, I'm I'm. In close proximity with somebody, who's, just kicking my and therefore I thought I could leave these topics alone. I would never have to deal with that. The way in which that they come up we in a in a way that is really
Unpleasant is this new thing, which is that all imbalances are all structural oppression right and which doesn't allow for trade offs between groups, like fins fin's heir good at some things, they're, not good at others. Nobody believes in like anti finish prejudice, so we don't think about it all right. It's just not it's not a big issue for us, no finish, humor. How many finished comedians are there I have no idea right. How many do you run into at the comedy store? That's a bat. It is a bad example because you're dealing with America I in american comedy and also you're also dealing with the highest level of the game. It's like you know that the com store is essentially like the
armored research, labs of stand up, comedy yeah, but this summer nobody's worried about anti finish. Behavior we're worried that were prejudiced against certain groups were worried that were prejudiced against Jews were worried or prejudiced against Mexicans against blacks. We have a pretty clean idea of what bigotry. We really still need to worry about right and we feel guilty about it and that's why you say it has this kind of blue britches quality to that would be really up to over there Why are you looking at that data right and what my comment is? Is I don't know how to stop this thing? I'm not Ex I did about it, I'm not interested in it. I definitely think that we have to actually think about the social implications of all these things. If your. If your, is that we're going to stop this at the level of data and analysis, I can't afford that. I just can't afford,
we need to have somebody who's able like, for example, microcephaly you've got people with smaller heads than the rest of us, maybe because of the Zika virus. What is it? Is it unethical to study what the cognitive impairment due to microcephaly is. I don't know I want to do, but I know that I want to have a very thoughtful conversation. How can it be? How can I the unethical to study the cognitive impairment of someone is it affect affected by a disease and that could possibly help fund research help fund. End of measures. But if there's a with with smaller heads and cognitive impairment, you know and what, if somebody like, let's take Moses, Take it down. Syndrome mosaic down syndrome doesn't have the same profile as regular down syndrome. Get much higher functioning people right. I mean ultimately we're all souls and we have to figure out dignity and we have to figure out some system by which we can live with this increase
level of knowledge, but does examining impairment. Does that really mean that it's a prejudiced like what it would in examining impairment from people who have been injured, should we have quit doing that because we don't want to be ableist. Do you see what I'm saying now, quick, because we're talking about reality right were talking about issues if you're, you're examining someone who contracted the the virus and it led to them developing a smaller head, which is one of the horrible side effects that right. It is examining that in some way, some sort of prejudiced that should be avoided. Examining our cognitive avoid examining it, we may do some damage if we examine it and publish the findings, we might do de do de I mean do you saying, might do damage to the people that are in fact a look or a flick. If we don't begin, with an idea that, ultimately, the issue is compassion for ourselves and others, and that
a lot of our genetics in our history. History, DIS predisposes, us to bad behavior now that we're living with each other like we have to start hippy dippy is a sound. You have to start from a place of love and decency. Die here. I certainly agree, but I don't think that we should avoid reality. This is the thing right yeah so now I have this other thing, which is reality is compassion it in and of itself remember when HIV was an equal opportunity, disease and it just started in the gay community and it's going to jump the fire road and it's going as much a heterosexual problem is it was a homosexual problem that turned out not to be true. An ideological statement that didn't look at the differences between different kinds of and different sexual practices between gays and straights. It was a it was a activist position that started to compete.
With a epidemiological position or a biological position, and so historically, what we did is we had private expert communication and it's not always clear that you can trust your experts. It's not always clear that you should start with the data. What if the data says terrible things maybe the data on people with Microcephaly says something and you have got a person who's going to be judged by the size of their head, which is visibly off from the rest of their body. You know we. We haven't taken up the challenge of our time, which is okay. We've got a lot more information than we wanted and we have a lot more ability to analyze it, and we know something about ourselves. We know that we have got bigotry is part of our makeup and we know that um we're not really good at certain ways of integrating information and not becoming triumphalist and jerk ish about it and taking victory laps as if it's a comp
like my groups better than your group, so that's where we're stuck now. I want to be struggling with other people are saying like I don't know what the Answers are, I don't think you know as brought it before. I don't think EAST Africans cheating in the Boston Marathon, because they've come to dominate it. Just because you know. Suddenly you had a diverse group of people replaced by a very tiny group from Ethiopia and Kenya. We are. We are behaving as you would expect when compassionate people who recognize that they have been bigoted and structurally oppressive, encounter data that they can't handle the science is giving us more data than we ever wanted on these things and we're not answering the challenge of our time and that's what my issue is. Social justice is it's not about. I don't
better planet or a more inclusive planet. It's like stop crowding out the really difficult, interesting, open, hearted and versation with this dime store nonsense about simple answers and simple, simple truth, because those aren't true and it's not going to work in the long term. So maybe the ideas were competing with social justice, with the rights to try to come up with a better, more equitable future and the complaint about it. Isn't you guys are trying to come up with a better, more equitable future? It's What, if you're going to make the same mistake when we said well, the heterosexuals or as much at risk, is the homosexual that wasn't true. We needed to devote resources,
tore homosexual community and we did need to get the heterosexual community interested. We had a problem and we needed to think about. You know very thoughtfully: we've got an epidemic, that's killing. People I think, we're talking about this. I think everything you're saying resonates and everything you're saying makes sense, and I think, when talking about compassionate to and human beings looking out for each other and that this should be something that we we all. This is like one of the one, our primary concerns whenever we address any any issue right, I think our problem in this country, there's as many problems with one of our problems is the loudest voices on the fringes and this One of the things that I want to discuss with you is what's going on in Portland yeah and I think, what's going on in Portland is the loudest voices on the fringes that the people
on the writing on the far right and the or recognizes recognizing, as emblematic of the left. They think it defines the left and I don't think it does, and I think it is it's a symptom of it's a symptom of. First of all terrible government of someone who's allowing this to flourish inside the mayor of Portland, who seems to be supporting this in some sort of a weird way, weird way and and look ideologically, believes that and t for just because of the name stands for anti fascist. If you had no name which would have have is a bunch of hood wearing mask wearing violent thugs were beating people who disagree with them. ' 'cause! That's what we saw with that, and how do you say his name go? Is it is ending. No, no and n g o right I treated? The g is silent until somebody think I think you're right
from that video that anyone could support that of with the person who's just talking, if what I've seen of him, what they have tried to describe that he supports NEO Nazis that he supports the proud, but I've seen none of this I've seen no eh into this, but I've seen the narrative trotted out over and over again as a justification for violence against him, when the left supports bullying in the worst possible formed ganging up on someone punching them hitting them with sticks, crowbars all this crazy shit. Thinking that it's ok to throw milkshakes at people, thinking that it's fine! This is nothing if you think this is a horrible precedent to set, and it's a terrible it's a terrible move. If you're playing a game, it's a terrible for first move things only escalate. They don't de escalate
one says: wow you beat the shit out of Andy knows, is a mystery like what the hell is going on, what the hell you, allowing people to wear, masks and carry backpacks with weapons and there's a natural human inclination when someone gets hit to jump in and hit him too. So, if you see it all the time Watch world, star, goto, world, star, hip, hop dot com and watch, someone gets hit a bunch of people just jump in and hit him. It happens that try box tops and fucking high schools. It happens. People get brain damage, people talk to each other, all the time, people permanent injury. When you're, seeing in Portland there was one of 'em where and uh old guy got hit in the head with a fucking crowbar some mass kid, because the old I apparently disagreed- or they all do. Disagree on things- I don't someone's decide guess is that the old guy is not exactly is portrayed I believe that the old guy may have been there with a telescoping baton hitting people. Let's take this. I think this is so worthwhile, but like let's do it right because I
This is so mysterious what the hell poor people doing supporting Andy. No being beaten up on video. So let's stay stay with him, because that's the best clearest example of someone who is a tiny little gay man he's tiny. I mean he represents so many different. Maligned populations right he's pretty intersectional, yes, he's asian is an immigrant he's, an immigrant he's gay Z Republican, I thought he was left of center, but I was told him he was a conservative. Well, I've been told I'm a fucking all right guys. It's very confusing he's. Also diminutive in physical form is he's not he's not threatening physically right, and the I've chosen this guy as an example, and one of more disturbing things were how many people saw the video and we're justifying it saying things like get another hobby these and are the anti fascist will not stand for. You know your
bigotry in your hate like? What do you talk? Okay, you think it's okay to punch this guy, like the fact that you eyes all piled on and punched him, and this is so sudden, but I've been thinking a lot about it. I have a model, I'm happy to hear yours, because there is a mystery. Can we both agree to be at the beginning that you would imagine that that video would have shocked people and to find so many people sort of excusing. It is really shocking. Well, it's a given. That he's also enters the intersection like yeah. You wouldn't predict this from first principles. Right now I will Do we looked at it on paper? You definitely would especially if, if you allowed him to self identify as left of center, okay, so here's how I think the model goes. Okay, You want to give you his first now go ahead. The First thing that we have to understand is that there's a division I want to lay this at super carefully. The first division is between the
what you're calling the loudest voices and I'm going to call the most courageous call, courageous the most willing to accept LAS the voice is most willing to accept loss most. Of the left does not want to be dragged to the extreme left? You here this thing about. Why are you focusing on a fringe, and the answer is b, The fringe is running the show in my What do you mean by willing to accept loss if you go into an Antifa versus proud boys, melee. You're willing You accept that your they get clocked with a bike lock. I don't think that's. I don't think that's correct. I think you're dealing with people that have no concept of real violence. No experience of real time there have you seen. Yes, there fucking cause play its cost blurp. Have you seen the image of the guy? Who is a suspect,
he's never worked a day in his fucking life looks like he's never been outside, and I think the people are playing a fucking game. We've agreed on yes, but you are willing. Do you think you're going to get into a wile e coyote versus Roadrunner kind of a thing where both of them always survive to the next car? Do you have no idea what they're doing, if you have you ever seen a fight between people who have no idea how to fight? Yes, yeah. I've been one of those that stuns me as a martial arts expert that stuns me that people are willing to participate in that it's like mean not knowing how to get in a motorcycle and getting a race. I don't. I don't know how anyone is willing to do that, but they're willing, do that and they're willing to do that, because they're delusional and supported in their delusion of perspective by the giant numbers of them. They all had to get and then then the wear masks which further emphasizes this illusion that there are Joe game. Assume that you are not even in Physical situation, you're willing to
be very loud on social media, about very simplistic perspectives, yes and you're willing to become a pariah some level, because our- although I think mostly your support, far more support, I'm not necessarily. You were going trigger so many times on this explanation that I probably just need a little place in the table to start building this up, and then you can tear it the hell, okay, okay, the first believes is the belief. That I have is that the fringes are much more running the show. Then the people who claim This is a small number of people believe that the fringes you're scary to go places the rest of us aren't. I agree with you on both sides left and right, left and right, so I spend a lot of time focused on the fringes, because the fringes have become terrifying and the middle is become cowardly. The whole principle about the whole idea of you thing was about.
Creating a non cowardly core that could actually potentially hold the center, because people are actually. Fairly courageous, like you, would have to say my brother- is fairly courageous. Shapiro Andy know SAM Harris. These are people who stood up to death threats. You know I I have a guy who's threatening me every day of my life, you know coming through the internet in my family. You have to have some courage in order to be part of this thing and that's more part of my irritation when people come after it so there is a cowardly center and a very terrifying fringe, and the fringe is going around the whole thing right, left and right. The next thing is that people are secretly weirdly sympathetic with their violent, the violent fringe to their extreme, rather than
making common cause across the center. So, for example, you imagine that you run a laundromat and you're being visited by. Number of organized crime every week. And it comes into your laundry bad, any kind of plays with your stuff, and he says I would be shame if anything happen to your business and shakes you down starts saying you know. I noticed that you have a daughter. I would love to date her perhaps perhaps we'll go out sometime.
You hate this guy, then some sort of violent village vigilante element- that's at operating extra judicially after you've gone to the police over and over again breaks this guy's knee caps. Thank your weirdly sympathetic with the vigilante because you're being terrified by a group that is not being taken care. I think that this is in part why some elements of the left there should be more responsible. The have institutional positions that have platforms that they can broadcast or weirdly sympathetic to anti for and why country club Republicans are weirdly sympathetic to some of these far right groups is, is that they view them as this is the dangerous grew, that's kind, taking care of the problem that I can't stand up to so you've got this bizarre cowardly sympathy from the center, who won't actually stand up and say
I have more in common with a country club Republican like in my case, I feel myself as a progressive released, a liberal. I have more in common with a country club republican than somebody who's got a bike, lock who's looking for trouble, a street demonstration trying to smash up a Starbucks right? I don't want the help from my left. Now the The group that wants to play this out using these sort of proxy groups to handle the problems saying look We're we're gonna sound an air horn before one of these things so that all reasonable people can get. The hell out of the way, and if you don't respond, Then your collateral damage and that's on you, that's how they see this that's right. So, in other words, I think Andy know, is the guy who doesn't listen to the air Horn, Bret Weinstein, doesn't listen to the air horn. Jordan, Jordan, Peterson, SAM Harris do listen to the air horn
think it's very accurate description of these fringe people doing the work of the people that are more reasonable, but are happy to have these bad people do do their work to fight this battle for them because they, think that, ultimately it's for good yeah. I need my organized crime group to get rid of your organized yes right, and so the idea is that the law and order people I really don't want anybody's organized crime group and I'm gonna actually stand up to the mob and I'm actually not gonna pay you, your God, Damn protection money, because I'm gonna own a laundromat, and this is the United States of America and fuck off. That's that's the view that I represent yeah. I don't want. I don't thank you auntie. If I don't need your help, yeah You know what I actually a much more afraid of the far right and the reason I concentrate my negative energy on the far left is what you trying to do you trying to get the me out of the bottle on the far right. That is the day, yeah. You want to see more tiki torches, it's not tiki torches that you need to worry about. Its armed people
come and they're, not they're, not bringing bike alone when we're pushing ordinary human beings to the extremes, yeah right and the thing that I get it is that, like, I believe that the Republican Party, you know I just I never get a chance to say this stuff. I have never gotten along with the Republican Party. I just don't like it. I view it is the thing that wants to exclude me from the country, clubs. I have an older model there. The group that wanted to put in condo developments in Yosemite Valley, because they couldn't figure out why would want to preserve the national parks. They were the ones that laughed about clubbing the baby seals ha ha ha. I just always had this attitude fuck these people all right. This is my. This is my emotional cadence and we always had this thing where the Democrats, with this we had most the smart people and so in a tiny fraction of time,
We have seen this giant evaporation of intelligence, if not actually through a lack of courage. The people who represent response double left wing thinking who believe in structural pressure but don't believe in the extent claimed you know who want to keep making progress, so want to make sure that traditionally marginalized groups are taking care of that we take our. Abilities, but not our guilt as the reason for trying to make a better world, I'm not paying reparations for slavery. I mean my family came over here in like what the nineteen teens or twenties we came some programs is anybody can be paying dues for the programs that I am going to get getting ukrainian reparation? Let's not be ridiculous. Do. We want civil war. Do we just to open open up, tear off every band aid for the purpose of trying to make everybody uncomfortable in their skin,
Possible what we have is a situation in which we don't have courageous people willing to fight for what works. We have a tiny number of people who are animated by this. The reason I'm animated by this is that I'm trying to keep the pipeline open for science. It's real what happened to my brother before it ever had open to him. My brother and I were in this discussion about what are we going to do to make sure that there's always a place to do biology to do mathematics to be able the way you know competing claims and when you start politicizing everything and you choose activism over thought and reason and civility and comity. You can sign yourself to becoming a less great nation and you Longer able to lead, you can't build the world on
The activism that's trying to go back to a lily white nation. That will never happen and you can't enforce like equality outcome. We don't even want that people who work their ass off deserve some of the pictures of working your ass off, and I don't always want to work. My ass off know. Jackie Chan is the one I always look at that blooper reel at the end of every Jackie Chan, film, tells me he deserves his money. Never gonna do that to my body ever I don't want any quality of. Come with Jackie Chan. If I make some little film and this guy's risks his life for every scene, it's insane. We need to create a world in which people are excited and animated about keeping the pipeline of decent thought? Compassionate thought, open, hearted thought. And rigorous and unforgiving thought both on the table at all times
and not adulterating one to serve the other. I don't want to see science abused to oppress anybody. And I don't want to see somebody's dime store concept of utopia infecting our ability to make sense of the world. Those are those are twin. You know that This is this is what I'm excited about. We need to get the world excited about during disease. We need to get the world excited about cross pollination of ideas between different groups. We need to get the world excited about. Every group that is sort of marginalized Teens neurons that we are, access right, and so for example, asian females make up about one slash, four of the world's population and very few of the world's Nobel prizes. Should be getting greedy about. How do we get those asian female brains into
to our stem laps so that we can have the fruits of of their discoveries. People can't hear this because they've they've settled on very cheap versions of progress. It's time to get back to real prog. Chris not fake progress. How do we do that? I agree with everything you just said, but how do we do that honestly uh This is my third time on, perhaps the biggest podcast in in the world. I don't know- maybe maybe that's give you a little bit too much credits not very far off we're doing that, we're trying to stand up, and if people respond, and you know you've given me courage to start a podcast. I gotta tell you. I did not want to do this. My brought my producer Jesse Michael's here I was a pain in the ass to this guy. I did not return his phone calls. He tried to get me to sign contracts. I wouldn't look at them. Um. I've started with this turn
Key podcast company called cast media they put up with me for, like eight or nine months, where I drag my heels uh, I don't want to be famous. I don't want to be well known, I know sort of well so this is about anything, you want get really nuts. Yes, it's time to leave time to leave what this planet. Oh boy, Listen, we can leave this plan. I got something right here. No, take you to another planet right now, he's joking federal agents. Let me let me give you my argument: we're going.
Well we don't know that we can leave this planet. I love this planet. I love this plan. I have a good time here. Is my favorite planet, mine too? You know, but here's the real reason. We started a clock around one thousand nine hundred and fifty three, which is when we had the explosion at bikini in the first hydrogen bomb and um. When we figured out the double helix- and I call this the twin nuclei problem- it began in one thousand nine hundred and fifty three one thousand nine hundred and fifty three we started o'clock. It was also the height of the Mccarthy era. We do not have the wisdom to be able to fuse nuclear. We don't have the wisdom to be able to investigate the cell. It's too much power.
So our wisdom may have increased slightly, maybe didn't I don't know, but our power is now God, like so our biological intelligence. What our minds are capable of has it's. It's been surpassed. By our intellectual achievements. In terms of our technological innovation? These things, which well complicated. Succumb to our intellect right there, much simpler than we ever imagined to be able to create something that normally happens in the sun on an island in the Pacific
or to be able to rewrite a cell the way Craig Venter. Did you know a synthetic biology are gods, but for the wisdom and there's a great quote, we are now gods, but for the wisdom. Should be the meme picture. You now, God you for the best Someone's doing right now right now, let's not so that started this clock and the world's most serious human beings should be working on the twin nuclei problem. What do we do with New God like powers, given our history of conflict, our history of envy or history of madness- because we succumb regularly were you know I was twenty years after the end of world war, two women know what really happened there. I mean we're nuts we're absolutely not capable of this level of responsibility, and so the question
we have? Is do we believe that we have a long term solution in terms of increase In our wisdom, we should definitely try it. Everybody believes that should work on that problem, but um. If we don't think that we have the wisdom to live like this, we don't know how much time we have left. It's, probably not one hundred. Means probably maybe a few one hundred years tops because sooner or later, you're going to have Putin like Trump like people. I mean I'm sorry. I would have a very deep antipathy towards Donald Trump he's, not temperamentally fit to have the secrets of theoretical physics at his fingertips. It just isn't- and it's imperative to me that he not be elected in two thousand and twenty and the Democratic Party wake up and get rid of its crazy fringe.
That we can buy some time and it's nice if Ellen thinks things we could go to Mars. Maybe that will allow a small number of us to diversify in case we do something really dumb to the planet, but if
human beings heir to continue, and we are to continue evolving. We need to spread out. There are three rocks that are inhabitable. There's the earth, there's the moon and there's Mars, and the moon has nothing nothing there. Mars is pretty un interesting to be. In blunt, I know that it's beautiful to be sent back. These pictures and we've got this one gorgeous planet that we're clearly not smart enough to Stewart we're still having idiotic climate change debates. Even if, even if climate science is somewhat junk ified, we should still be taking climate super seriously, because we don't know what we're doing it's such a complicated nonlinear system and we're not even capable of focusing you know two seconds later I'll, be watching the Kardashians for sure. So what is the answer? Well, in my opinion, we gotta increase the number of possible places. We can go beyond three to say nothing of space stations because that's not realistic. None of these things make sense. So the first place that you have to get to is we're really deeply screwed and not because of apocalypse.
Dick cult, like reasons just because of science, just because of one thousand nine hundred and fifty three, so the only opportunity is if we can break the Einstein and speed limit so far as I know, or we can upload into silicon or weaken reboot from tar degrades like none of these answers, air good. So what I've been toying with, since I was nineteen Waas, what is the theory beyond Einstein and that's the thing that I've been most uncomfortable talking about um, although I've been talking about it more, I gave these lectures in two thousand and thirteen in May of two thousand and thirteen and Oxford, and I was appalled by the way in which the world's physics community responded. I mean I was very scared, I'm not a physicist um. I don't claim to be, but I felt like.
I tried to present what I hoped was a path forward, given that the field was completely stalled out, and this is it physics and biology, let us into the valley of death and it's now time to try to get out and people, but no please breaking up. So what is my responsibility in terms of the portal. What I'm going to try to do with this podcast is gained. The courage to share whatever ideas I've had about breaking the speed limit in the form of I don't think I have the wisdom to figure out what it means, but at least I have a hope of
trying to right the fundamental rules to figure out our source code- and that was that was- that was the plan, which is what is this place? What is the source code for reality? Now? What was the response to the physics that would to the physicist from the physicists that you found Paul There were two articles that appeared in the guardian ah newspaper website that um talked breathlessly about what I had done or what I might have done. Two. Call attention to the lectures that I was giving, so these were the special Simoni lectures by Richard Dawkins, successor, circus, too so toy? Who is a colleague of mine from way back? Who found me in New York City, I think in two thousand and eleven, two thousand and twelve, something like that working on um this theory, I called geometric unity,
And I was very uncomfortable, I hadn't really told anybody that I was working on this theory for all these years, because it's a crazy. You know this. Certain stories that you find in theoretical physics, which is kind of the precursor to madness somebody thinks that they've solved some big problem and they're working and secret. You know sort of what happened with Andrew Wiles and Fermat's last theorem, which is a really interesting story, because his first proof of Fermat's last theorem what I think was unfixable. So he announced a proof that he had solved like this most famous problem in mathematics. Didn't have a proof and then bizarrely, he was under such pressure that he found another proof and actually pulled it off. So it's like you know, HAT's off to him was one of the crazy story, but he was working in secret for seven years and nobody knew what he was doing. So sometimes these stories work out, but he was a professor at Princeton and very high.
He regarded and he'd sort of husband and seven years worth of work too pretend that he was releasing papers when he was actually secretly doing this thing. That would have made him a madman in some sense, and so this is what I was trying to do is. I was not able to work on these issues in the theory community, because the string theory community was possessed of this belief that they had found the answer back in the eighties in one thousand nine hundred and eighty four, they had what they thought was a revolution and the math community doesn't think in these terms, like both of these are very conservative communities. Historically And very focused on following the leadership of the top people unless there's a revolution, and so I started working on a different idea to unify the two branches of physics that appear to be incompatible. That was different than the string theory I'd.
And different than the loop quantum gravity idea or any of the other in your main motivation, was to do this to try to figure out a more advanced version of space travel. Well, in space travel. It was we did the source code like it's, it might be safer to go for Other, once you've unlocked once you've unlocked nuclear fusion you're pretty much as screwed as you need to be. So then the issue is okay. We know that we're pretty I'm. Pretty sure that Einstein's theory is not final, because you get these singularities, which I don't associate with ultimate equations, so the black hole singularity called the Schwarzschild singularity. Or the initial singularity that we associate with the big bang in, like the Walker
Are signs to me that these equations are incomplete, but the big problem with Einstein is that Einstein's work was so fundamental that it's like you can't get in under the ground floor of Einstein. You begin physics, seminar and you're, already immediately in his world, you say let x be a spacetime manifold boom you're already in in relativity, so it's almost impossible to figure out a way to get in at a deeper level of physics than Einstein's And we know that we have to recover Einstein's theory because that's been proven, you know to work in sorts of situations and the same thing with quantum field theory, which is why I talked about you know the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron. So my idea was that only since
nineteen seventies. Have we known that particle theory was based on geometry? We knew that Einstein's theory. I think, used geometry to develop his theory. It was the language of relativity called Ramani and John tree. But many years later we found out that bores sort of quantum and Plunks Quantum and nine things upon him as well was based on a different geometry of this guy, Charles Heiress mom. It was an alsatian geometry who had worked with car ten and that geometry. Was figured out at Stony Brook in New York. Jim Simons, who became the world's greatest hedge fund manager and C N Yang who's, arguably number one or number two greatest living theoretical, physicists he's now in his nineties, and they figured out that the sea script. Language of particle theory was also geometry, but a different geometry.
Metric unity is simply the idea that it's not a fight between Einstein and Bohr. It's the two parents Reem on on whose work I this relativity and Charles Mon, with this gauge theoretic stuff that we did in the time before this, which, in fact, Empowers particle theory, and so, when to those two geometry, is unify two different geometric theories and well. I found that in general they don't unify in a way that you want. You don't have the ability to do Einstein in Tensor analysis, where you compress something called to remind curvature to sir and the gauge stuff, where you do this gauge symmetry that we were talking about, because gauge symmetry ruins the ability to compress the Einstein. Tensor, never mind what that means
But in one or two rare circumstances you can actually combine the two geometries and that's where I think we are, and so partially with. The part purpose of the portal podcast is, is to use um. You know we'll just sort of share the mask off a little bit. We've been talking about lots of interesting things about social justice, about mathematics, about wonder about psychedelics and trying to be decent human beings to each other and to set an example, and I think it's been partially a success and partially a failure, but what I'm trying to do is to gain the courage to talk about what these ideas are. The comes to worse is that I did a lot of my life on a crazy theory that turned out not to be true. What was the response, though, like? How did the physicist react and what was
so the articles engendered a an immune reaction It's an immune response; ok, ok, so so but is giving a lecture now. How many times have we heard before the next Einstein? Yada yada yada- and I totally understand this- it's a reasonable reaction, like Sean Carroll had this reaction. He referred to me as a backyard Einstein and his wife and him twice today. Yeah he's, on my mind, his wife wrote? This amazing article in scientific American called your guardian. You've been played now she's, not a physicist, but she has access to Sean's brain and she writes on physics.
And then there was this whole thing where the new scientist said: okay, this guy claimed to give this lecture in the physics Department, but he hasn't written a paper and he didn't tell the physicists. It was a sneak attack. Well, of course, that wasn't true there there was announcement of the talk um. I stayed in England and I gave the talk once more ah and then it a final time, a week later and by that point all sorts of people from Cambridge and Oxford came to the top, because it was a worldwide topic of discussion. What the hell going on, and I give it to our talk. Consider that nobody, but the outside of the radical physics gives talks on physics. Is that it's like North Korea? They don't get many visitors right to the extent that they get visitors, they do get visitor.
There's from mathematics, but in general mathematicians, don't take an interest in the real physical world and to be blunt about it, I don't think that the string theorists are very focused on the real physical world. Either they've been playing with toy models for you nearly forty years. So a lot of it was playing out in the press. In the new scientist had to retract said no, no, we were wasn't true, they did publicize the talk and then there was that an article, a sent a reporter to the final talk that I gave and the reporter did not know, any physics, so I spent the morning with this person teaching him what the Dirac equation was like. A very fundamental thing. Question came up in the talk about is your Is your model anomaly free.
And my model is: has a property called non chirality chirality, which is the difference between the left right asymmetric models are called chiral and left right. Symmetric models are called Uh Non Cairo, so my model is Non Cairo, but the Cairo nature of the verse is supposed to emerge from it, and I was asked questions that didn't seem to make sense, which is you can't have a Cairo anomaly in a Non Cairo model and the person that reporter picked up on this and didn't really get it. So there like a flurry of activity with a big w t F, if you, if you ask me by the time I gave the second lecture, They laughing it was a serious lecture. People heard it was it was in. The it wasn't like really come up with their own language in their own. You know written crayon in some indecipherable thing. It was
written in the normal language, but I hadn't written a paper and papers are very much the stock and trade of that community. So I'd say that the community settled on a rubric which is paper or it didn't happen, in other words, put up or shut up, give us a paper. So I had written something um, but. Because my trajectory through this through math and physics, was very unusual. I have a very low trust of the academic community. I support them, as you can tell you, and I'm extolling the virtues of science, I was subjected to a situation in graduate school where I had. I'm probably the only person you've ever met with a p, hd. Who is not allowed to attend his own thesis defense? I don't know what was
It was on self dual equations not being as peculiar to dimension for as was claimed, but. I had a situation in which the thesis when I, when I had entered grad school, was something that you would present to the world and by the time I was trying to leave, it was a closed door affair where the department would appoint the person for you, and I was in the unusual position of not having a thesis advisor. So there's some very fraught story. One thing you'll find is that graduate school for some subclass of people becomes an extremely fraught experience where the power of a department not to grant you a degree or not to help you get a job or to expel. You becomes very contentious right,
and that was the situation, so I got into a very contentious situation, but there was no explanation of. Why was so so contentious talk about it on about okay on another podcast, but I was in a very low trust situation with with Harvard and with the standard community, and so when work that I had done that was rejected for my thesis was discovered by others. In one thousand, nine hundred and ninety four and revolutionized topological gauge theory. I became very sort of sullen and angry and withdrawn, because my department knew that I had put forward the same equations that came revolutionary in mathematical. Gauge theory: did you revisit it with them um, Was it seminar where a guy named David Koch Don when I very much admire the person who had been My advisor at Wanna name names head.
Giving a seminar saying all of gauge theory has revolutionized old gates? There is dead and there is a new cage, dairy and David. Because Don who I will name said in the I was in the back center row. I think I was picking my nose, and he said, didn't we have a student who told us to look at these equations and suddenly the whole room turned around and looked at me. I think this is in room five hundred and seven of the Harvard Science Center, and it's just like you know try to imagine you're you're an anonymous person in a lecture and suddenly everyone is staring at you in your fingers in your nose, and that was the moment and I and I think I mumbled something just to get out of it.
But I was angry. I was angry that they had taken away my agency. I would know better better, not to give me a phd better, just to say, look we're gonna go short, you screw off, you don't get a phd and then, if I end up doing something screw you you know that would have been a better outcome. So, instead I got a phd through a very tortuous situation and I came to give up on academics. I don't think that they're a fair system. I don't think that uh it's open minded. I don't think that they welcome all sorts of different belief, structures, um, which are capable of producing innovations. So you know for my money. I've been very vocal about this. I've written articles edged it'll work and I've said theoretical physics is stalled and you've been claiming that you're going to ship strength, string theory and since one thousand nine hundred and eighty four, where is it and
It's always you know any years away now. What was the MS of Sean Carroll's wife's article that they got played well Jamie. Can you bring it up? I had broken the rules, the rules yeah you're supposed to submit a paper. The paper is supposed to be reviewed. It's supposed to appear in the journal, you're not supposed to be doing this from mathematics. You don't have training as a physicist. This is a but it's not- I don't know I mean see if it is a hoax. It's on me clearly not a hoax you're, not hoaxing anyone. Trying to look. I don't I don't. I don't understand that, because the actual tag Imagine that you're the you're, the Princeton Physics Department, we have? A cork board on the wall called the crank the crank board.
Every week. Somebody writes to you and says I figured out a perpetual motion. I have a laser transport device right and So everybody is concerned and frightened that their their time is going to be wasted by lunatics. Now I both fit the lunatic profile and don't fit the lunatic, on the lunatic side. I'm outside of the system I haven't kept up. I'm not particularly mathematically minded. I mean the fact that sort of a b, Math Matsu from high school, so it's kind of the only person I know with my profile with a Phd in math and on the non lunatic side. I mean look you've been listening to my crazy ideas for a while, and there are,
all over the world. I have lots of heterodox ideas. I don't think that that they're taken is being insane, and I don't think this is insane. That's been looked at by enough people to say will until you actually write it down very cleanly and clearly we can't fully evaluate but it's a it's a gamble and the worst thing that can happen. Is, is that I have something that looks like a final theory turns out not to be Are you going to write it out already mostly written up, I'm in a different phase? I felt that I got rolled in an alley. So here's here's the big here's. The big reveal okay, it's gonna be a lot harder to roll me. I can roll myself. I can screw this thing up just fine by myself, but the opportunity to take me into a quiet corner and make something disappear or to hand the credit to somebody else is going to be a lot harder to do. It's not going to happen. Do you find it dear guardian?
You've been played, I love when they use like contemporary salon. So sketchy it's so good. So bitchy a bitchy wants a girl. What one girl writes it I don't don't care. I think I mean look it's only like the future of the number of you have been privately asking me about the recent guardian article and accompanying op, Ed by Oxford, Mathematician Marcos do so. How do you say it's a to Marcus, Desoto, Desoto, oi gushing over suppose supposedly revolutionary. You new, unified theory of physics by a man who officially left academia twenty years ago or as I've take, and calling it the Eric Weinsteins amazing new theory that solves everything, puzzling conundrum in theoretical physics, only he hasn't written an actual all these are capital letters. That's why I'm saying it this way. Capital is an actual paper. Yet so physicists can't check all those hard mathematical details, but trust us it's
would be awesome. Wow. That's super bitchy you, let me say that yeah I can say I can say, the fuck. I want a ham the first a couple caveats: I've met, he's a nice guy, he's wicked, smart, there's a stupid article, because you know better well, it's just the way it's written, it's just it's yeah, it's for clear, clearly, yeah! Well, We could go just playing after she's playing enforcer. Yes, you broke the tools? We know why you broke the rules, there's fame and fortune for you, and I think that's what it is: we're or you're delusional. What's her motivation for writing this article? That's what's weird! Well, she's, she's, a physics! Look! She! She comes from um. I think she's approached Protege of Casey Cole, the great physics writer from
not a physicist in her defense yeah. Do you feel that she felt this honestly and that this was problematic in her eyes that you were entering into this field. You had not read the paper and you had left academia twenty years ago and that she was like a you. Listen I'm. So this is all nonsense. Okay, I'm gonna put a stop to this nonsense and I'm gonna. Do it with sort of contemporary language and in slang I don't like the bitchiness, but it's I understand the motivation. Look. I think the bitchiness is to make the article more entertaining and more it's part of part of her style as a writer, I actually met her as she says, and I very high and positive impression of her. So why do you think she wrote without discussing it. You know and look Sean is also one of these people who's trying to enforce the rules. He didn't have the easiest time. If you didn't get tenure at Cal Tech, he's kind of a stick,
for realities. On the one hand, talking total nonsense about Boltzmann brains and thought experiments, which is what I associate with desperation. On the other hand, he's kind of this rigorous ration list thinker whose prominent atheist so he's a complicated guy? Is a great explainer he's got his own sort of economic incentives that he's one of the very few people who sort of voice of physics to the world and you know operate in some sense as a couple and there's a richness to this. Like you know my my point isn't to run them down or to boost them up. It's just people are playing at. Rolls whenever anyone has a sentence that consists of one word and that word is M not enjoy their article by him? What but look yeah but she's
trying to throw me a bone. He's wicked smart he's a nice guy or buddies, but he's delusional is delusional and to the extent that I've been dulu regional. Before about the only person in the US who is against high skilled immigration, because people think why should we keep out the best and the brightest it's complicated story before the financial crisis, I was saying mortgage backed securities may blow up the world. Are you kidding it's the great moderation we've banished volatility. People have a chance to know me now. They know that I get way out. I said this big I get way out there. Okay, I think you, ok, musk is totally wrong about going to Mars. Mars is not going to save us and maybe going to the. Stars isn't gonna say this. May the I I will follow us there yada yada yada, but I'm not. Take this lying down we're in a desperate situation and if you're not trying, here's, here's the here's, the clear thing,
We know what nuclear weapons look like in the fusion if we are trying to get off this plan. Before people are unleashing gene drives and you know Can Ized anthrax and who knows what the hell people are gonna, get up to as the more of biology in the power of physics, keeps going the power of information at least I'm trying, I think, I'm doing a damn sight better than trying, but assume that I fail completely. How crazy is it that we're not trying to take? arms against our new sea of troubles. We it's time to rush the cockpit we've got to get trump out of all. We've got to restore sanity to our sense, making we need newspapers, we need fact particularly problematic about Trump being in office. That man has nuclear capabilities and I have zero confidence in this decision. Making
Well. Imagine that I'm a trump supporter after I've called him an existential risk you know my boss and good friend, Peter Thiel, was a supporter of Trump in the last election, I'm taking a huge risk. And how much I love this guy Peter Thiel, and how much he loves me because I'm poor, The employer, employee relationship at risk and people tell that you're just a petertyl to a wall up nobody's going to take that kind of risk unless they have real faith in their front, and I work for a friend, I mean a real friend person who doesn't cut and run when trouble starts and I totally disagree with Peter. I have come to understand the trump I thought people would understand that trump danger and that the Democratic Party would re evaluate their situation, but they didn't they tripled and quadrupled down, and that is alarming, and so that's something I very much got wrong about Trump
is that even Trump wasn't enough of a message. Let people know but Trump cannot have the nuclear codes. Because he's not a skilled, a regular enough player he's going to accomplish a lot one of the things I said before the election. Is he might be the best and worst of presidents? He might get us a new North Korea deal because they're, look at him and say this guy's nuts. Who knows what is would, but we we, the technical community, created this problem and we're abdicating our responsibility by worrying about our egos by worrying about our reputations. I am abdicating I should have turned this theory over to the theoretical physics community years ago, even if they screwed me over and I'm too petty and egotistical toe want to give up on it that I watched them. Take credit for things that weren't, you know a sign credit. I don't like
way. They work. I, the theoretical physics community, is our most important community in the world and it is also a very unpleasant community and we need to fund them and we need to let them play their dangerous boys. For the most part, there are women, but in general they're, very unpleasant men, um they have been somewhat cowed, they're, not the same cowboys. They used to be because they've been failing for forty years should be sharing stuff. I should be writing things down. I have not had the courage to do it and if I really have the courage of my convictions, I should share this and see what happens. But one thing is, I don't know if it could be weaponized assume it's right. You know I have this decision tree assume it's wrong. I've got egg on my face. It's okay, I'll, be okay. I worry much more about if it's right, the two things that could go wrong. If it's right is one that could be weaponized before it becomes useful and two is that there's no solution and it may be- we actually are stuck in this place.
We never get to go to the stars? We can look at exoplanets of and dream, but we're stuck here until we change human behavior. Isn't a trip to the far just a relocation of our own. We're were kicking kicking, but we need time in the time we have not gotten to the point where we we don't even feel the Danger we're in we're in so much danger. We haven't had almost anything happen since one thousand nine hundred and forty five at this scale of world war. Two and so we've got magical thinking between our ears, where we think it can't happen here. You know this is the thing that makes me so. Fucking furious about uh Screwing around with Europeans and sovereignty, which is Europe, is a dangerous place. Europe is historically a dangerous place. It's been a place for years. College students can go and take in the sights, but it's a dangerous ethnic cauldron and
who's know this better than anyone and the one thing that the left. The flow rate agree on is Jews and it's not in a good way right, so it very important. We are the canaries in the coal mine, we feel the stuff early and things are. Things are coming apart: the the physical world, the world of Karma First, the world of structural engineering and building permits is still okay, so far, but the intellectual world, that sort of wraps that keeps it in check is coming unglued and, quite frankly, I don't want to go through that again. We cannot afford another world war, two, his world war, two won't won't look like world war. Two or three yeah? And I don't know, maybe it'll look like information warfare. Maybe it won't look anything like a war that we've seen before, but you know the. Problem is joe- is that I've got some sort of
dude, martial artist across from me, I'm some sort of guy who dropped out of academics years ago and doesn't have a published paper in this area, and I really literally think Maybe it comes down to you and me baby. We used this podcast and some crazy ass differential geometry to at least make a go of it at least at the minimum. Excite somebody to think maybe it's possible to make progress. What's interesting about that is what you said is reaching astonishing number of years denies. This is why I pushed out look. I've been responsible about this up until this is my first really irresponsible podcast. Why is it irresponsible? No, I don't know. Maybe it's artistical? Maybe I shouldn't be talking about this. I guarantee you they're going to be a lot of people in Physics Department's going to be pissed off when this hits yeah. But it's your thoughts, there's nothing responsible about your thoughts. Well, you have to appreciate that, when you're working as hard as these guys have- and these guys have been slow,
being in the salt mines for forever, with no progress of the type I mean since the early seventies. It's pretty galling. It's pretty galling to hear somebody talking like this, who has the luxury of an invite to this podcast with no vetting with you know nothing behind him other than the hope that maybe he's done something that and I've never spoken about this. You don't have a recording, for example, of the the lecture that I did it Oxford, which I chose not to release. You know I just it was so unpleasant, the cattiness, the bitchiness, the nastiness, the undercutting the idea that this came down to ego or fame. I guarantee the thing that I really like, least about what I'm about to do with this podcast is fame. I think fame is a bad
It's a bad deal like you have to deal with this. You don't say what your location is. Where you're going to be. You know people react all day, long people can you get me into Joe Rogan? Can you connect me with Joe Rogan Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan? It's constant. I get two to three requests a week. I don't want. I've had a wonderful fifty three years with out being very well known, and if this doesn't work out I'll go back to being very well, not very well known. My my greater fears is that maybe maybe it will work and then the thing that I really care about is: does it get? Does it help
Does a bias time? Can we get off the planet? Is there anything we can do if we actually know the source code? You know John Brockman runs this thing called edge dot org and every year he asked a question to like two hundred scientists and finally got tired about asking the the annual question. So he said twenty twenty years is enough. The last question is: what is the final question and Jamie ask to bring up uh, EJ, DOT or GE, and my name and my answer on must have been twenty nine, two thousand and eighteen and it's interesting because you know I kept putting stuff out in edge like, for example, is very worried about wrestling. Staging an election, so I didn't calling kayfabe, which is the system of lies that under
Kurds wrestling- and I did one bit coin- go virtual young man. So noble. Ever paid attention to my series of answers to the edge question. So this is the last question, the last something unprecedented happened when we finally learn our own source code. Nobody cared. This is the question that obsesses. This is what I say have left this planet is. This is what I'm focused on what happens if we actually figure out where we are where this place is? What are we doing? Who are we? What built this and who acts on that information once we do figure it out what steps are taken? I don't know whether or not the consequence of those steps are ever really fully. You know. I always thought I always tried to talk to somebody like government or the intelligence service is like I don't know whether I have something. Maybe I do. Maybe I don't, but wouldn't wouldn't: wouldn't you guys want to know, has schedule you was never was able to get anybody interested. I went through graduate school on the
Office of Naval research is top grant for graduate study and always thought they would check in with me, but they never have really angry. So, like the federal government paid for my post doc and the military paid for my graduate education and Harvard doesn't care, and they don't nobody cares, nobody believes that anything is possible, which is the really interesting part? What do you mean not nobody believes anything the pot you mean really really astronomical breakthrough. Yeah, like we all know, of waiting to see what what TIM Cook is going to do for the next Iphone, we'll e line get to Mars. Does anyone actually care about Mars hi? I'm I was there for the moon landings and, let me tell you we were bored of the moon by the time we left it's a very weird thing to say, but that's something I was born in one thousand nine hundred and sixty five we were: board, while my perception of the whole Mars things, that's the shittiest location that we can get to yeah it's.
Bad news. The best note location that we can get to that. Isn't this one well yeah, but it's also like we have spots on earth it suck yeah. We don't even go there. We don't even go there but like at least hats off to you on that. He at least inspires people by he followed up the scent when we gave up on progress right. So my point is we're not nobody this- is gonna work. I can say it on the show it can generate a little bit of flurry of activity. Will die down within a week we're gonna go back to you know who got milk shade and we're gonna want to know is, is tulsi gaining on Andrew. You know what about Biden can the center hold well, the fringe come in we're just constantly distracted and At least this is going to be entertaining. We are at three hours and three and hours
got to four hours, I'm happy to end it. If people will go to the portal. The porter, with Eric Weinstein, on on apple apple, Spotify, Spotify in popular clients, for podcast, I'm sure they will he. This is gonna, be an interesting one. I'm I'm really curious to see what kind of blowback this one's going to things Joe one arm. You along with SAM, and my brother, really encouraged me to this? So I'm holding you personally responsible for whatever goes wrong. The second thing is I really just. I have such a positive feeling about what
done in terms of empowering people like really touched me that when my brother was shit out of luck, you did a bunch of shows with him ah and helped him get to a safe, place, and I just want to say that there is like an aspect. We keep talking about. Is there any use for men whatsoever and standing up in a situation in which you can take a fair amount of gulf? You can take a lot of heat You know. You said this thing to me. That was really amazing, which is that this is a golden age of comedy in my interpretation was that there was a period of time where nobody could figure out how to tell a joke on a college campus and our best comedians have figured out how to be compassionate enough and kind enough. And touch the things that are animating us in making us uncomfortable and that that's what you're a part of, and so I view you is like- very delicate neurosurgeon. I watch the evolution, for example, of your jokes, about professional wrestling. Being gay right now, seriously stay with me
that it was always funny, but it got better and better and better and the idea that that could be told in a way that you be totally comfortable with You know your gay friend or lover right next to you laughing your ass off, taught me a lot about the power just radiating decency that. Together with analytic, thought and it's a bit of a template. I don't know that I have the skill to pull this off, but you've been an inspiration. I just wanted to say thank you for having me back on the program in my pleasure. My friend, that's always a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you bye. Thank you friends. Thank you soon at show, and thank you to our sponsors. Thank you to 20Th Century Fox's, new action comedy stuber. Kumail, Nanjiani and Dave Bautista. It is out in theaters July 12th and it looks fucking hilarious, go check that out
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Transcript generated on 2019-09-21.