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Tom C, B, D, M d, dot com, promo code, Rogan for twenty percent off your purchase of a high quality, c b d oil product, all the quality products from C b d m d: it's a great company and their their stuff is excellent. My guest today is he's a journalist and he wrote a really fascinating book on the terrifying subject: fentanyl and how fentanyl became this scourge. Is it safe to call discourage this murderer elements in our society and what had happened and it's real interesting. I really enjoy talking to him. His book is called fentanyl ink and his name is Ben Westhoff. The Joe Rogan experience during my day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. Thank you for having my pleasure This is a subject that scares the shit out of me. Uhm you,

how did you stumble upon the story of fentanyl, because where you at one point in time, what did you write about? rap music yeah book about n DOT, WA and 2pac man. I interviewed like ice Cube doctor Dre Snoop Dogg, all those people yeah but the LA weekly music editor an iced we're looking into this story about why people were always dying at raves, so like If you remember a few years back, every time there was a rave they're, like one person died, Do people die more and they all service from ecstasy, but I knew that ecstasy was really not that dangerous of a drug. You know MDMA pure MDMA. Very few people die from that. So like what is going on here and I, I didn't do it and it turned out. It was all adulterated. It wasn't real see it wasn't real molly. It was adult raider with all these new drugs. And I kind of went down the rabbit hole and I found out all these new drugs or

in China they're all synthetic and they're like hundreds of them, and then it turns out that the most you know the First of them was fentanyl and that's how I got under the topic and fentanyl most people, think of fentanyl. They think of it as being a new thing, but it's not really a new thing where it was wasn't it. It was invented in the 50s. Yeah yeah I was invented by a belgian chemist. He was trying to find some. In that work better than morphine in hospitals. Does morphine work really good? Well, it does, but for things like yeah. Traditionally people have got a lot of mileage out of morphine, but first things like heart surgery? He wanted something that came on really fast and it lasted. Long time? he manipulated the chemical structure of morphine came up with fentanyl. It was a blockbuster draw.

You know in still is using hospitals all the time it's used. You know, there's the fentanyl patch people with cancer. Chronic pain and then, when you get a like a colonoscopy, they give you fence know before that, and and women who have epidurals during childbirth that, I believe, is usually fentanyl. So it's still an important hospital drug, and so how did it come to be that this drug for the 19th sort of re emerges and they re emerged during the rave scene. Is that what it was it was actually before that. First started, killing people a little bit at the beginning of the 80s, and nobody knew what it was. It was from China, then as well. No back, then it was these kind of mystery chemists. These guys two. There is this one guy in particular, Kyle George Marquardt, and he was like a a genius maniac who read all

chemical literature. He learned about funding that fentanyl is like. I should try to make this. I bet it would be a hit with recreational users. And so he started making it and it's stumped authorities, because these people would die. I have track marks in their arms like it was her. And they would have syringes, but they tested them. And there's no heroin their system and so they're like what is this and The only way they finally found out was that there was this scientist testing racing horses and apparently fentanyl was being used to dope horses. It till so they would withstand more pain and would go longer and faster and could really train harder, yeah, and so so this guy made the connection he's like this is fentanyl. This is this new thing and he actually predicted what was going to have and he's like. We are in trouble now because not only is there,

Manson they'll. You can make a new. If you ban fentanyl, you can adjust them all will make another type of fence know when they ban that can make another one ad infinitum, basically wow. So the thing with horse- it would be that they would be in pain, so they wouldn't run as hard, so they would force them to run. Order by dulling. The pain I guess so yeah I don't know all the details of it, but you know it's performance enhance bass, is missing kind of counter intuitive. You would think that we can open would like make them sleepy right well, I know all right, they were just has a different effect on horses concerned. So then the internet comes along and through the internet, people started. Scouring the medical literature and scientific literature chemical literature and then they find fentanyl actually yeah, because back in the old days you you know scientists would publish a paper they're trying to find

new drug that they can patent say the drug in the no one wants to buy it. It goes on some dusty University shelve, never heard from again but in the internet age all these papers start going online, and so these rogue chemists that I reference in the my book. They start finding particular scientists who work on the type of drugs they're interested in and then they start going through all their papers and they pick out drugs that they think would work. Recreationally and So when fentanyl first came out, it was totally legal people walk around with a giant bag of it. They couldn't do anything, and so it sat in mission is sort of cat and mouse game between law enforcement and drug chemist switch really still persists to this day, although mostly in China now have you You ever experience any opiates personally. I've taken yeah Take tramadol in, like Tile

about three and stuff. Like that. I don't know three is obvious. I think it's coding which is a low level opioid, and I don't to me it always gets me stone, but it never seems to like deal with the problem. I don't really help you, as you know what I mean it's like. I can't sleep and system right. That's not your thing! Yeah I had the old Nyquil had coding. Didn't it didn't do we we've been over this family didn't. We try to figure this out. I I remember I took night Quil in the 90s in the late 90s I was sick is like the last time I ever took it and it was the full house liner go on. This is amazing. I don't give a yeah I heard of sick. A lot of people say that I just so I can the battles. Another time I had a morphine drip. I had knee surgery and they gave me a little morphine drip Tammy Thomas I wanted. I could just hit this button, get a little more more. Just lying in bed well, like the irony of the opioids. It can produce the greatest pleasure

the greatest pain. You know I SAM Quinones, said that, like how can one molecule. Give you the greatest imagine will and the worst pain imaginable yeah Lenny Bruce had some crazy quote about it, something about that like getting hugged by God. I forget what the quote was, but I've never had experience with heroin, but I knew I've known people that were addicts quite a few and couple of them that died and one of 'em that I knew there was this guy. Who was a pool hustler back in my pool playing days in New York and his nickname is water dog? I forgot his real name, I think was bill, but I know that was Buffalo bills. Another nickname, I don't remember his real name, but anyway, this guy was an elite pool player, big time gambler. But the thing was he had

do Heroin first so like they would play games for like ten thousand dollars a huge games, and all these guys would come from the Tri state area. They would come around to watch these matches in bed on the side. End up water dog would go to the bathroom and everybody knew what was going on. He would go and shoot up and then we come and he would sit on a chair like this, to sit there for like half an hour, just sit there well and then, when it was over when the half hours over who just like ok you don't do well in the zone, he couldn't miss and he was playing this guy this. This dude that I knew named George was also a big time gambler. He was screaming and yelling that this mother, When he's on this stuff, you can't miss it had no nerves like nothing bothered him. You could scream in his face. He would look at you like an alien like it did.

Didn't bother him at all like like an insect, would look at you and he had this incredible ability to play like at the very best while he was Fuct up on her an- and I remember thinking what a bizarre drug think about all the amazing artists. That's claimed yeah, I think about jazz and on the whole training process. Yeah Lenny Bruce so many people I mean you go down the line. All these different folks mean that mug shot that I have out there of Hendrix heroin cocaine, Heroin, Toronto, yeah I mean people like people, refer heroin to fentanyl, like I've heard it described as more soulful people say, but the because you can't even get heroin in most parts of America like pure heroine anymore, it's all cut with fentanyl. We gotta go straight to Afghanistan, right uh, that's probably probably Mexico yeah!

yeah Jesus Christ. Now it can you grow poppies, cannot be grown in the yeah. I've heard that like, if you just walk around on this like nice, neighborhoods you'll see poppies all the time. You just don't even know you're looking at him and that's actually heroin like you could get heroin from those puppies yeah. It's like if they grow now, you know at organically and you're not doing it on purpose. It's no big deal, but if you start cultivating it that's when it becomes just got a place to live. I don't know you're beautiful, look, pretty yeah you also have San Pedro cactus on your lawn, sir. Oh those are pretty too right. Yeah yeah yeah, I mean those taxes. I can't imagine there are I trained police to know what to look for, as I feel like if you're going to grow some mess called it a

and cacti or whatever your does the move you're either going to be our mix it up with regular cactus pretend you're cactus in to the several of your lawns and succulent temps, really in a cactus mentor, pretty they have to water. My going to tell us yeah exactly so when you know what what scares me is you know I mean just no people that party, I know, people that take pills and it seems like fentanyl is things are getting cut with fentanyl a lot? It's not it's not a an uncommon thing for all sorts of different drugs with how many different drugs are cut with Sentinel Street Drug man. It is like an awful time to be a young person on the party scene. You know like when I I was coming up and probably when you were coming up, they said the dare I am in that say just say: no, they made it sound like every drug could kill you right right.

Now. Unfortunately, that's like almost reality that basically, a pill or any powder if you didn't get, your pill from CVS. You know your pain pill, from a pharmacy, that's legit. It could be cut with fentanyl and it's how prince died. That's how Tom Petty the rapper MAC Miller all died is that they were taught thought they were taking legitimate. Is that really what happened? That is really what happened. Yeah got his from the black market yeah. Well, the guy who supplied prince has been. He refuses to really say exactly where I got it, but he's still alive to the guy who got in for Prince yeah. Where is it? I don't know I think in Minneapolis Apple is our size and find well. The actor is also like settled of it or something I think the doctor might have been involved. Somehow it's a mystery where it got these pills, but you know prince was like doing the splits on at age

fifty eight or whatever, and he was definitely a guy who walked around with a lot of pain. He was Jehovah's witness he was not a recreational. User as we think about it. You know he was he a pain and I'm sure for years his and whatever was Bynum off the dark net or whatever, and and they were fine for years, but but then a drug dealer time to save some money, increase profits, cut it with fentanyl and that's that's how he died. I heard Tom Petty actually suffer an injury or hurt himself had one of his concerts and You just literally walked outside and asked like. The first She guy he saw if you had any pain pills and that's what killed them. Jesus Christ, in in in prince needed hip replacement surgery. Did me, I think, that's

no era, so common for some reason, with people who perform on stage who do a lot of jumping around and going crazy. My friend Maynard lead singer of tool yeah he was, he does Jujitsu he's really into Jiu Jitsu and he's like man. I just have no movement in my hip. My hip is like so locked up in the doctor went to look at it and then like hey, bro, you've got no hip left like it's just shot, and it was from. Stop thing on stage really sings install time in that one hit wore that hip out. Yes, my mom. Has these issues with her neck? It's like degenerative disc disease, and you know you've got this like cushy spongy, you know. Well, they can do something about that now before your mom goes and gets her neck cut. Open there's several options, one did the the cop. First of all, as it's been explained to me, the concept of degenerative disc disease. It gives you this amp. It implies

There's a disease yeah like you caught a flu. That's all you gotta do is not what it is is bad posture wearing down compression carrying weight. If people carry a lot of things there disc gets mushed overtime, there's a lot of different factors. A lot of athletes get a lot of fighters, get a lot of wrestlers jujitsu guys they all get it. We got it and where did you? Where did my neck? Okay? was from getting my neck yanked on on and using it. Like move people around when you're doing jujitsu in grappling. But I found a thing called Regina King with Regina King is what Peyton Manning used he actually went to Germany to go. Do it, but now you can do it here in America, Uhm Kobe Bryant! I went and got it done as well. It's great for people with back issues, disk issues and with bulging disks in particular. Helps relax the area around the disk. It's your own blood there's some sort of strange procedure they do, but they take

blood, it's like a very advanced form of platelet, rich plasma and there's a place called Lifespan Madison in Santa Monica that did it for Maine, You got like full everything back everything back yeah, I mean depending How far gone it is. You know some people, it's already bone on bone, there's no disk that you got to catch it before that happens, and then another thing, they're doing is they're shooting stem cells directly into the disks and they're having some really good results with that or the stem cells. But a lot of that there be doing that in other countries, because there There are a lot looser with their regulations if they have any regulation at all. Yeah just fuckin' fill you up with stem cells electric, but yeah, and everything starts regenerating yeah but but yeah just these pills either it's like any like. You have others. I know who are you know getting towards their team

years right, yeah and like that's. The thing I worry the most about is our kids too, and just yeah, because I used to you know I wasn't discriminate. I didn't care right, especially if you're drinking, if you're young kid and you're drinking it going to make wise decisions. You don't even know what you're doing, if you're a young kid you're one thousand eight hundred and nineteen years old, and you have three four drinks and you you don't even know what that is appearances, like you know, you don't have the wisdom and the knowledge and the history to go. Ok, I've got three drinks. I don't know what the crime doing. I should get outta here yeah. I definitely should be taking any pills yeah, I'm in so I'm already like trying to think about how I'm going to talk to my kids, who are younger, but, like you know, I hate say it, it seems like marijuana. If you can smell the buds, If you can see them, you know there have been kind of scare mongering on the internet in certain police departments, saying that there's been marijuana caught with fentanyl. But if you go on Snopes They sort of debunk all that. So I think marijuana is, if you can smell it, it's

I was like we you're, probably pretty safe. Well, there are a lot of people, growing marijuana that are using pesticides and chemicals that are dangerous and there was one. What was the company that got caught recently, jamming they tested their stuff cushy punch? I believe yeah so that again 'cause she punched, but the microphone I'm cushy punch. We had a guy named John Norris on the podcast and he wrote a book called hidden war. An he started off his career as a game warden. You know investigating people that caught too much fish things along those lines, an he thought, hey what a great job this would be. Get in get a job in the great outdoors. I love the outdoors and you know I'll get to do some good for the wildlife well It turns out along the way they started stumbling upon these public land mexican car.

They'll grow operations where they would grow these marijuana plants just giant plots of them and they would use these stream Lee Toxic pesticides yeah and also they would use poison to keep animals out and they had that this shit laying around and some of the marijuana was actually infested with this shift or acted yeah. My friend Amanda Chicago Lewis. Is this great journalist folks time focused on marijuana and yeah? She put the fear of God in me about those pesticides in Carson. Janz and the other thing it's just like these. You know these different oils that people are smoking, some of are marketed as like all natural, but they find synthetic. No in them and Basically, you know synthetic cannabinoids like K2 and spice are what they're known as sometimes and those are the people because synthetic marijuana, but the big difference is that

thc is known as partial agonist, so it will like. These are sub. Sure they will. It will activate them to an extent, you're chill it's relaxed, but the ammonoids, they also interact with the right receptors same as thc, but they are full agonists so they make you basically like go crazy and your heart starts beating fast. You start People overdose and die on these. These canopy and they they're all made in China to. I went into a lab in China where they made these and they made no analogs to let you in yeah I mean it was. It was a whole thing. I like rode on the internet. I made a fake email address and I said I'm a drug dealer. I'd like to visit your lab. I do that when I come to China and they said yeah what yeah that's like did fake drug dealer name. I called

self did I call myself? I tried. I had this like Skype, avatar picture, where I like a bro like a twenty three. Well dude with like? hair like kind of a stoner look and they just they said yeah come by, and so so I went Shanghai and I met this guy at the train station and he owned his own lab and he asked me if I was I was actually like pretty straight away. It's like I. I you. Journalists, though, has like no like. No, no crazy question. Do I look like Charles? No, so he didn't know whether to trust me. So we went to his apartment. Is like the top floor of this fancy high. He's a total family man. He had like you lived there with his wife and kid it's strange to his home, yep meets a guy says the drug dealer pick them up at the train. Station is hey. Come to our my kids, sleep yeah, exactly wow

and so then he showed me 'cause. He had there the website a lot of these companies in China. They make legitimate chemicals and recreational chemicals and they allies in drugs that are legal in China, band in the west banned in the USA. All illegal in China well in Yes, we have this thing called the Federal Analog ACT, and so that bands all- these drugs even before their invented. So anything it's similar to marijuana structurally or in fact anything. That's similar to opioids it just automatically band automatically scheduled but in China they have to do it one by one by one by one and so fentanyl itself was in china- was banned in China decades ago, but these chemists spent like this when I met specialize in this window when something is banned in the. U. But it's still,

in China, but it's become popularized on the internet. So there's all these websites is web forums. Where these like nerds, basically or like you can't get fentanyl, but you can get this thing. That's kind of like fence and so hilarious turn by way drug nerds, yeah yeah, that's what they are and like psychonauts, I'm sure you heard of cycling shorts right, specialize in these new, usually psychedelics. They tend to prefer that have never been tested on human subjects, but this guy entirely specialized in fentanyl analogues in synthetic cannabis, and so he took out. You know he had is like fake list on his Well side of all the legitimate you know like Cialis and illegitimate farm SIRI calls things like that, but as a part, his apartment show me the real and had all these. You know it was can't ever no, it's was like Valium like different types of xanax,

and he showed me the prices- and I was like alright looks good. Can I couldn't go, see your lab, and so finally he decided he trusted me. He called up his driver on the phone and drive. Showed up, and he was kind of this big like muscular dude, who didn't speak. Any english and I was a little worried- I was like. Oh this- is the dude he's going to break my kneecaps if, when he I'm a journalist, you know, but I just got in the car and we drove like thirty minutes to the outskirts of Shanghai We got to the lab and it just looks like a regular office park like a suburban office park. There is a fountain in in front of the building. There was, like you know, use the key car to get in the parking lot and then it looks like kind of a new construction building. It smelled, like some man, we went inside, we went up to

to the labs. All the windows were open is the middle of the winter and it is kind of a strong chemical smell, but it looked kind of just like breaking bad. Like you know, it's like industrial size glassware where you know beakers, bunsen, burners, all that stuff from high school chemistry, and he would point see points like basically I had my recorder. You know on my phone and I had it in my jacket pocket just on record, and so he told me I couldn't take pictures and so to take notes. We just say stuff allowed I'd, be like oh that's uh uh oranges eight orange mixture, that's being mixed up by mechanical arm, and you say it's bends offense in the elevator, interesting and so, but but the language very was such that he, you know didn't think I was being too much of a weirdo that that

I clearly was, but so that they can of annoyance what we were crazy. There was like a table like this like I'm, exactly the size that was piled up with the cannabinoid's that were there for drying and it was a there- are mounds, like this high just sitting right out in the open what they look like the look like pot. No, because it's not a plant you know is, is basically it's a chemical that sprayed on the plant matter like ice age and stuff like that really so they try to make it look like pot, and you know you can smoke that stuff out of a pie type or even rolled into a joint, but it if you look closely, though it's very clearly not pod, wow and so they're drawing this stuff. That's what I think you know they So I had like drying machines. It looked like a mediterr, like it when I use this term. But you know when you go into subway and there's the. Baking machines right there yeah. It looked exactly like that. Why did he not like that?

I don't know, I think he thought subway- would sue us or something. But but those, and then they had like big buckets of one pound bags of these. These cannabinoid, these fentanyl analogues just ready for shipping. He said they were sending I'm to Russia, to Belgium, to the Netherlands, and then I think a lot of times. It's repackaged. There So I don't know if you knew that the cannabinoid's like used to be so legally and head shops like ten years ago, yeah. They would always be in these colorful packets. They almost look like a pop rocks. Package. They say like something you know spice and, laugh out loud and stuff, and so I think in Europe, that's where they do that they put it in this colorful packaging they and then they ship it to the US and but yeah. He was saying that, like he kept like really close track of the law,

all these countries, specially China, like their scheduling. This next week, so we're going to take all this and throw it away, and I thought at first he was like probably just putting me out, but I think they actually do that like these guys are businessmen first, they want to make honey and going to follow the law it just doesn't you know it's not. I can do This is where bath salts came from right. Exactly yeah bath salts tend to be cast unknowns, so synthetic cathinone is there. Have you heard the catw planned a GT yeah, that's the hijackers pirates. Small. You say they yeah yeah yeah, it's really popular in the Middle EAST. It's like a it's a stimulants against you really well. Have you tried it and No, I never have yeah, but I grew up in Minnesota, though, and there's a big small. Population and so a lot. A big controversy in Minnesota, whether or not to ban cat leaves from being sold in regular store. Is it legal? I think it is

I think it's not legal in the US now, if I'm not, but I don't know for sure interesting, but so, okay, he h a t's up, yeah exactly and so the Synthetic cathinones are the synthetic version of that like made in the lab, but there there you know, there's ton different kinds? You don't know strong, it is and the bath salts they. Of course it has nothing to do with like salts for your you know. This is a misnomer and they also wrote called them like incense, sometimes plant food, and on the back of all of them, it would say not intended for human consumption That was like the way they got around. They thought they could get around The federal Analogue ACT, because part of the law says that something is Automat Klay Legal if it's intended for human consumption mmhm. So these guys are not intended for your record. So I just put in your bass yeah the bad smells like toxic chemicals

yeah, remember when the homeless guy ate someone's face. Remember that and they said he yeah, but that was actually disproven. There was none found in his system, yeah Cannibal, the causeway cannibal. I think yeah yeah and he was just crazy right. I think he may have smoke some weed but yeah. I don't think he had anything else in his system. It was just high on life. Yeah Van the hard you know yeah it's funny that wants is so synonymous with fuckery yeah, and they also had this thing called Flocka have you ever heard of that? Yes, I have, but I don't remember what it is. It's more cathinone sand like if you look on Youtube, there's all these people is going crazy. That killed like, I think, maybe a hundred people in Florida during a time and The problem is, you know, like the prohibition on drugs causes people to do really stupid things right. So you have this Kathy known like Flocka

and as bad as that was once they banned flock. The chemist started manipulating the chemical structure so they change one little thing. They had like a chlorine groups, for example, so, like a chlorine like molecule, How do you know it has nothing to do with the drug, but they just added on there to make it so it becomes legal, but then it becomes more difficult for your body to like digest it so becomes worse for you in a high becomes worse, and then they ban that and then they make something new. That's even worse for you and it's just like down the line and any. So so that's what all these new drugs have in common. My book is about their called Nps novel psychoactive substances. Some is the most famous and is dangerous, but these include basically, like synthetic new versions every drug so

as marijuana. The new, the Nps version is the synthetic account heroin, and This version is fentanyl, there's Alice D, so you take LSD. It's like a wonder drug. No one has ever died of an lsd overdose. You know people may have but they were a bird or whatever and jumped off a roof, but no one is ever overdose on the drug itself, but but once they started banning once I started really tracking down an lsd. These chinese Mr Manufacturing, this new type of psychedelic that was sold as acid, and If you went on the dark web, this was like in that, like years ago or so tip five. Ten years ago, you would search for acid and it you would think you hang LSD but you're buying this new psychedelic. That could kill you and did kill you. These drugs are called and

it's like the worst name of all time- the Zen bomb drugs and they started killing people in like the suburbs in Dallas, fail and it really music editor yeah, so These kids all thought they just wanted. They did their research. These are like smart kids, he said LSD is never kill. Anyone, let's get that this new thing to kill them, and so it wasn't really L. It was just so it totally. No, no! It's not really any time at all yeah. No, the crazy thing is of this probably could be fixed with Lou. Allies in all drugs, but nobody wants to legalize all drugs. It's such a catch, twenty two because like if you had a harrowing available at the corner store, you would have no need to buy fentanyl and if it was

like at a reasonable price where they couldn't undercut. You like heroines, five dollars I'll, send it felt more for a dollar yeah. It's a terrible thing to even say I don't want people to be able to just go buy meth. Well the way to think about it. I think, is like Dick causation. A lot of times is like a better alternative in my opinion. In my you know my research and then legal Jason right. So, like the presidential candidate Andrew Yang talks about decriminalizing opioids right, when I first heard about that, I was like what I was like. That is a bridge too far, but the more you think about it. It's like people get arrested for using until they go to jail and then The recidivism rate is like through the roof people like get out and they start using again. They don't get the treatment they need you know, and so the opi you know like people, don't realize that fentanyl is killing more people,

any drug in american history ever an annual this more than heroin, more than pill, more than math more than crack, and so things just get worse and worse every year people aren't talking that much. But how is decriminalization going to stop that, because decriminalization will just make fentanyl more available the point of legalizing all drugs and again, and this is a very, very messy subject that I'm not a proponent of legalizing all drugs, I'm sort of agnostic on and I'm like. I don't know, I don't know what the fuck is it. What is the answer? But If you legalize them, and you can buy them from reputable sources, you would know that you're actually buying cocaine you're you're not buying some fake Chinese. ICE Jam, getting whatever they call it, you're buying actual cocaine in you look, we know. If you buy whiskey right, you get a thing on the label. It tells

what proof it is! You know that if you have yeah, you know three drinks are gonna be up when we can regulate that we could sort of a just like I, I had two already, I'm good, you know, but if you don't know what's in it, you don't know what the doses, so you don't know, what you're? Okay with and what you're, not okay, with one of the good things about alcoholic you get a beer, that's a beer! You know what as you know how much alcohol is in there yeah well in some country, in Europe they actually give the heroin and these are addicted users, yeah and so You know it's awful at the heroin. That kills people at all. It's the dirty needles, it's the criminal, lifestyle used to like pay for the money to buy prostitution. Things like that, and so I went and visited these places called supervised injection for have you heard about these? Yes yeah? Where were these where they have

well, they don't have any in this country. It went over there trying to win in Philadelphia and there is a court case in its favor. Recently, the Our governor, Ed Rendell, is like spearheading that, but I went to an Barcelona, and so these are places where drug use is totally legal inside the facility, they have clean needle is doctors and nurses supervise it and they even like so they have like This is the smoking room where you can go and do do anything you want. They have cracked pipes like that. The government provides are like government funded and create a crack, pipe so they'll hand out to people and they've never had an overdose death in one of these places they they have connected to treatment centers they give out. Methadone So all these treatment drugs it brings people into the system so that they are accounted for.

And these have been like super successful, but in the US there's like federal crackdowns on them. Yeah again, it's I think, there's an issue politically right because nobody want to be the one that says: hey we're going to a place where people can come and shoot yeah and people like well fuck this guy, my sons, hooked on heroin. This piece of shit wants to help him what we need is detox center. So we need is treatment. We don't need a place where you can go go and shoot heroin. You know, but like many things in life, this whole heroin thing fentanyl thing all these different. It's very messy yeah So even if you're not going to go that far, there are simple steps we can take to help. Stop the opioid crisis. And one thing I'm a big advocate for is called fentanyl testing strips, and so that's the weird thing about FED, I is it's not a demand. And drag like every other drug. It's out there, 'cause people want it

We want cocaine. People want when people don't want fentanyl sneak it into other things exactly So studies have shown that if users know fentanyl is in their cocaine or their method, their hair, when are there pills? They will be much, most likely to use it an overdose from it and so fentanyl testing strips there they'd look kind of like pregnancy tests, they're really cheap. Just paper strips you mix up your solution of whatever you think you have heroin and you dip the strip in there and if there's two stripes, that means that you have fentanyl and if there's one it means you don't or else the other way around, and so it's it's simple, it's immediate, but but again,

U dot S! Laws are so insane that these are actually banned in certain states like Pennsylvania, so that could be done to help people understand. There's fencing on the drugs that they're looking for they looking for cocaine and looking for heroin comes up this pencil in there. What are the steps you think can be taken to sort of alleviate, or at least somewhat mitigate this awful crisis. Well, of course, there's no are. Can you know what that is? It's c like the mirror. Opioid overdose reversal, drug nasal spray, usually, and so if so, one has overdosed on opioids Fentanyl heroin pills whatever you know. If get these sprays, it will bring them back to life literally, and so you know that it's available in some places of man? I'm not smart enough to know that

do not know the others here we can find out works in our tents even find out how nor can works. How does nor can work? That's amazing, though they figure out some. The consignor from like, where else where? What else is we have that in pulp fiction? to get out of the heart. Remember that would have seen you know what I was asking someone about that recently and that is total bullshit. That is like Quentin Tarantino, just making something up. That's not real thing! I'm glad that dramatic scene was fucking awesome, that's pretty crazy. I mean, if you could shovel fuckin' needle in the middle of your heart, that stuff in like bottle and she pops up to live with the needle out of her chest. Yeah, that's in real life. It would have been a nasal spray to the nose, but this is one thousand nine hundred and ninety four. They didn't have that yeah, and so nowadays it's like firefighters. Librarians. These are the people who are encountering opioid overdose VIC.

MS either calling them in the library in the library library to do drugs or firefighters or Emts react to people that are overdosing right. Yeah and isn't it the case that some sentinel overdose is the the people actually have it on their skin? So these people that are helping them with their police officers are first see another thing: that's kind of a snopes dot com thing. They started that yeah. I know. That's you can't get it from. You can't get an overdose by touching fentanyl. It won't go into your skin. If someone like there was a, you know, amount of fentanyl, someone, knees and it was in the air you could get it by breathing in, but by just touching it now. Oh well, that's good to know. Narc reversing an overdose. It says, has a strong affinity to the opiate receptors, stronger affinity to the opiate receptors than it's opioids like Heroin or percocet, so it knocks the opioids off the

just for a short time. This allows the person to breathe again and reverses the overdose holy Shimane. That person needs a Nobel Prize, never came up with that. They need the exact opposite. As the guy who sold the drugs to Prince yeah yeah, exactly you know they need love and respect yeah, that's an amazing discovery. So that's good to know because we've actually, I think the probably repeated that someone told me that driver Peter repeat that, on the show that people work drugs or gloves when they're handling people, drug overdoses- I don't know No, probably not probably I mean have you ever, have you ever heard of Carfentanyl? What is that it's one hundred? I'm stronger than fentanyl have her lock. Its use is like an elephant tranquilizer one of the Jurassic Park movies that's what they used to tranquilize the dinosaurs, oh yeah, that's right, and so I interviewed a bunch of dark web dealers for the book. I even actually like Matt one in person. What look like

well you asked me not to say, but you don't have to say whether he came he was like a buff dude. He was like a he is how much I'm too much hurt with a finding now feel it like when you were recording like what is that Orange vat of you know who did Do that kind of same when you're talking to him? No? No, because he knew I was a journalist. I told him I was and- and he wanted to say, yeah he's he's like people, think of us as scum, but I I want to tell my story and that's that's what journalists like right. Well, what is his story? Well, he was uh, he's, probably listen to this man, hey bro, it's crazy he was not web drug dealer total family man with his daughter. He was like feeding her french, fries and stuff, but he had he was excited to math. At one point he had a lot sort of depression, self esteem issues, but then he tried

opioids and he was said it was like an antidepressant it. You know so became hooked and So he started selling fentanyl on the dark web because it he didn't want his kids that live in poverty. He didn't want his his drug, to interfere, and so not only that, but he he claims that he's helping addicted user. More affordably, maintain their habits. So he is this big. Like fuck, you know Purdue, Pharma and I government anti big Pharma a so he blames like Purdue Pharma made a oxycontin pills and got that's how all opioid epidemic began, so it was for who is the pills? Then people which to Heroin and now it's in in all the heroin, and so this guy says that does, is he makes a nasal spray too, and he says that people can buy his

no nasal spray on the dark web for like sixty bucks one spray, it's equivalent to one Oxycontin pill and that's enough to maintain their addiction. He says you know instead of paying money to the big pharmaceutical companies, people buy this it's much cheaper and So we had a whole moral justification of of how he did it so he's an ethical drug pusher. That's that was his case The problem is that um, this stuff final, is so potent and to make it into a a nasal spray. You have to use this whole thing. It's called volumetric metric dosing when the water and you got to get the exact right proportions and he's wanna, train pharmacist, You know so fine he's a middle man. No, no, no, Does it. He has a whole process, how he doesn't yeah, but he's not. A farmer says he doesn't. You know he's doing it right

I told him that I said that to him and he's like well, basically, I tested on myself. So if I'm doing it wrong, I would die so my customers there No I've tried it so think I sounds like he's got a great pitch, but I'm not sure yeah, I mean P, you gotta justify yeah, I get it, but so many people who sell drugs and so many people who are involved in drugs they're, always the people have up lives like to paint the best version of what they're doing That's a that sounds like yeah. I mean I feel like if you're selling fence in old, someone's probably died, because what you sold them. I mean it's just it's one of those things where it's so deadly mean what are the numbers in terms of annual deaths from fentanyl in the United States? Well, it's up over thirty thousand,

a year, and that's that's more than think about more than the that's more than the peak of the AIDS crisis. Think about that, while people are trying to ban flavored vapes, which is fucking preposterous, you know it's. It's terrifying! Thirty thousand people God, damn that is so many that's a lot of people and then there's many many many many people listening to this, that no someone has been affected by this. That's the the horrific things that it's and it's sort of snuck up on US words. This is not a big thing in the news. You don't hear about fentanyl deaths in the news. You would think that if there was like a cool lady cool, it was count. Thirty thousand people a year holy if Colin was killing two people, yeah yeah, yeah, the fact the sentinel stuff- and it's all happening because it's a week It's all happening in this sort of weird gray area

it's! You know a lot of people in the margins. It's I want to hear the presidential candidates talking about it. You know, like there's so little at the Democrat debate. They were like what would you do about the fentanyl crisis, the opioid crisis, and they all said. Basically, We got a su. The pharmaceutical companies like Purdue Pharma now sympathy for that argument. I mean Purdue Pharma in places like Mallinckrodt pharmaceuticals. No one started at from Saint Louis RAM from actually made a ton more pills. They made like twenty nine billion. Feels a year. Opioid pills at the height of the opioid crisis so these company and they made jokes about it. There are these emails that were found that people are like it's almost like people are addicted to these pills. You know like it's just like Doritos. If you

keep eating them will make more. They would joking around. They were making jokes about that, while people are dying while people are dying so so I've total sympathy that these we should sue these companies just like the big tobacco lawsuits in the 90s. The money will go towards their treatment all that, but that does nothing to stop the fentanyl crisis, the pill. Deaths are already starting to drop, which is great heroin. Doubts are starting to drop, which is great but fentanyl deaths are still rising and inside. You know this guy Andrew Yang, who I said candidate with he talks. He has a very good solutions. You know Elizabeth Warren had some good. Some good ideas in her proposal wants to put more money, but for the most part like these, to be the Democrats, people you know what I mean: people on the margins but they're like barely talking about it all

think it's one of those things where just being president right being present as an impossible job is no way one person can really control every single aspect of our civilization. It's just not possible, and I think that's the same thing about running for president no person running for president really can address every single issue that this nation is dealing with. So they stick with the big ones like jobs, and you know in a quality in all the the things that are just going to get people to push the button yeah they get into the booth, I mean that's all they're doing this is just a. I hope you, like me, sort of pitch yeah. I mean you know it's killing more people than car. Since more than guns. Even do you know that more people than guns make sense. But what kills me is. I just don't see a logical first step where step it could do something about now I mean other than legalization of drugs, and this is

So the step, I'm sure you probably heard what happened in Northern Mexico yesterday yesterday now is now without the family's son- was a no nose and who won a family. A woman and her children were gunned down a mormon woman. They, you know they have these Mormon compounds in Northern Mexico. No, I didn't and ten people were murdered, which women and children by the cartel really G and just gone down the then more people injured ten people a little little kid little girl shot in the back and she's in the hospital. It's like they just gun these people down, and this is all justice in human violence from the cartels and your heart tells that have roan

rose to power and prominence? Because of the fact that there's an illegal drug trade, so there's money to be made so instead of that money being made by pharmaceutical companies, that money is being made by these ruthless murderers cartels- and this is this- is exactly what happened during prohibition in the United States. When they made alcohol illegal in the 1920s or 30s. Wasn't twenty? There was twenty two Isaiah when alcohol illegal, but it didn't stop people from drinking it just made, people sell it yeah and so organized crime rose and then Al Capone and all these different organized crime members they made insane amounts of money and developed insane amounts of power we're the exact same thing happening in Mexico and again Alcohol is simple. Right, yeah make it legal for adults. It's not this pills are not simple right. It's a scary, yeah! It's scary you know the war on drugs stuff, it's

increasingly going to be turned towards China and in fact, Trump has been meeting with the chinese president and the trade war stuff, the increasing the tariffs. This is now tied into fentanyl. And so supposedly in a couple days, this might be out by then, but there's this announce men of a new partnership. China says they're. Finally, going to crack down on these drug labs and we'll see if it happens, but point is like we can do everything we want to try to. You know we can go to war with China, over this issue, but you know what is our past. Record in this round, like the d they help kill Pablo Escobar right, but since then, there's more ok coming out of Colombia. Then there ever was before you know. Nowadays, El Chapo is arrested, tried, that's doing nothing to stop the drugs. The cartels drugs coming in

us and and and every indication that if we do get China to stop this, insane like ninety percent or more of the illicit fentanyl comes from China that if we do get them, crack down on it, he's going to go to India. Any He is already starting to see these huge bus like there's these mexican cartel members getting bus, Is it in India for buying fentanyl in India yeah. The thing is like China and India have the two biggest chemical industries when it comes to generics kind of lower level, chemicals and pharmaceuticals- The- U has the most profitable pharmaceutical industry cuz. We make the brand name drugs things like that, when you're talking about generics and stuff like vitamin c acetum,

and if in which is the drug in Tylenol. These are all made in China Place like India, and so they have this huge kind. Brain trust of Miss people go to you. Versity. They learn how to be chemists and then a amount of them get into illicit industry right. So echo, doesn't have that Mexico doesn't have its so chemical industry and a bunch of scientists who can make fentanyl who can make these new drugs so so that makes India so susceptible to it and and the biggest is actually not even the fentanyl itself, it's the fentanyl precursors, do you know what those are chemicals that are used to make fentanyl exactly and so that was sort of the main investigation in my book, like almost like eighty pages of the book, are dedicated to this one company,

they're called you on Chong as chinese company. That makes more fentanyl precursors than any company in the world. You know they are legit legend and not only that they sell on to the cartels and they're. Really sanction not only sanctioned by the chinese government, but they get tax breaks. The chinese government they get. Subsidies they get their land subsidized, their staff training things like that, and now sort of the most jaw dropping Revelation that I had was that the Chinese, Herman is not only failing to crack down, but they're encouraged in this industry. They're encouraging industry, that's insane! So it's just the the the the ideas. Look, it's making a lot of money. Let's just keep making money yeah it's some! A lot of people ask me if they think this is a blatant conspiracy.

He to try to like inflict harm upon the US, a subversive form of warfare, and so I think it didn't start out that way. I think that these These benefits were given so that China could increase. Its exports, could grow its economy, particularly when it comes to chemical exports. So that's why these tax credits started. They're called value added tax rebates, and so what that means is any chemical that you use to to any ingredients, used to make a chemical for exports You can write off the cost of those of those ingredients when you export it. So basically, it's like a sixteen percent tax rebate. And so they originally did that just to try to like improve their improve their exports, but What's crazy to me now is that last year,

in the middle of the trade war. This was uh. Height of when you heard about the trade war everyday, you know, Trump was raising terror I'm doing this and that is the height of that China increase the tax rebate for fentanyl from nine. Percent to ten percent. So it's almost like a seems like thumb in the eye like for fentanyl, it's I don't know, it definitely seems like a big fuck. You yeah, yeah uhm. This is what's crazy about this. Is that what you said before? No one running for president is talking about it. The president has talked about it briefly. You know it's, but it's not. I don't see any movement. I don't see any big steps being taken

I mean, I I don't know what big movements could be taken. I mean how do your racket the stuff? Well, they have you heard of medication, assisted treatment. This is like what I was talking about: Suboxone, methadone and they're. These opioid blockers to so there are all these drugs for low level. You know low will opioids. So you take your daily Suboxone shot and you don't crave No, you don't crave heroin anymore, but it can't just be the drug you know you see me on tv was or whatever just this line of people and you know they go back out on this. And then there you know get back to whatever they were doing, but Medicaid. Assisted treatment, combines that with traditional counseling and therapy, because a lot of times it's not just it's, not just chemical hooks. You know what I mean

it's people's lives. They have problems they're like out of work. They got terrible family. They had trauma in their past, and if you can you know, unravel those problems really get to the heart of things. People can quit. And they do it all the time. There's another method that is not widely discussed, but it's incredibly effective and that's I begain I've heard about that yeah. Well, I know many people that have Kik pills because of I began kick booze kicked, destructive self destructive habits because of it, and is it a root or supplant from Africa? I believe it's from the oboga and I believe it's see if that's from Africa. I want to be around with this. It's legal in Mexico and a friend of mine, my friend, Ed Clay, went down

to Mexico, because he had an issue with pills. Hurt himself: oh really got on pills, so really fucking up his life went down. There got treatment, was so stunned by it. He started. He opened up his own place, on there to try to help you all really wow what part of Mexico. So I would I don't know what substance derive from the plant yeah african Shrub called tavern now say: is that right, timer, nothing, it Boga! which is known for its academic qualities and use an african spiritual ceremony. Some claim it's something of a miracle cure for opiate addiction with minimal withdrawal, symptoms, there's something that happens with. I began when you take it it does something to rewire the areas of the brain that respond to opiates and that sort of are hard wired for addiction it rewires them in a way that they

very low, recidivism rate, very, very wrote, low, you know repeated action right, yeah, like psychedelic, seems to be so much potential. There's this, a professor that I write about his name is David Nichols and he basically his whole career studying psychedelics as a way to help people beat cocaine. Addiction. Alcohol, addictions, even fight things like PTSD and it was actually found that MDMA ecstasy is like it's amazing drug for PTSD. Even you heard this, the maps is in the middle yeah exactly yeah they're doing these they're finally have gotten clearance to do these studies and in some cases, just using MDMA. One time is enough

the term you used a like requires the brain. It's like resetting the hard drive yeah like turn the computer off turn it back on again yeah and it up. I think it also changes the way people think about drugs, because these are escape drugs in the same sense as heroin is or fentanyl is or cocaine is these are drugs that sort of give you a refocus perspective on reality, self yeah, and I don't need to tell you about DMT now, yeah, that's another one. It's the same. I mean that's also. I once goes also very successful for people to quit, using that to quit smoking using it to quit alcohol people that have a real issues it sort of gets to the heart. It me lets you stand like hey we're going to take you on a little journey into the mind and show you through dimethyltryptamine. Show you what what's with you right, this something that you've sort of stored away in the back of your brain

Rotten and it's you're you're always ignoring it, but it's always there said flavors everything you do right and psychedelics one of the. They do. Is they shine a bright light on all of those weird parts of the mind that we all have? We all have weird memories or weird feelings or weird, You know thoughts of inadequacy or self hate whatever it is that cause us to be self destructive and make poor choices and a lot of times we're not even Where of it? These these things, sort of master in your subconscious and DMT, psilocybin a lot lot of different psychedelic drugs, which, oddly enough, the most potent ones. The Mirror Normal human Neuro chemistry. That's amazing, which DMT is a part of normal human Neuro, chemistries produced right, but I've heard that yeah and and I've heard, like Iowa, Iowa Osca is like twelve hours or whatever experience long experience, yeah and I've heard that DMT is base

Klay the peak of that yeah like to still down yeah. It's the way I describe as mushrooms times a million plus aliens. Does it have like a profound like last impact on you know, yeah. It changes who you are just check, you you, you were put your pre. That thing and then you are now, you know now, you know that there's a whole nother dimension to understanding and to experience it's just very, very, very different than the normal static. Well, that we all live in yeah there's this guy called Sasha again who yeah you know such children. So I got to go to the arm where he designed all his drugs and He dedicated his whole career to trying to you, know, discover

new psychedelic say, could be used as medicine, and so he took like the the chemical structure of Maskell and was one of his most often used they're called out the scaffolding of facts. So it's like that's the chemical scaffolding, and so he would tweak a little bit to try to come up with new drugs, sample tiny bit himself. If it did nothing took a little more little more little, more till it till it had an effect and he over a hundred new drugs, he he was working for DOW Chemical. The people invented agent orange at the of his career and he invented like psychedelics, while working there that have like the DOW. You know the was like patent patented and so he invented this drug- that was known as STP is a psychedelic It said for serenity, tranquility and peace. I think- and so this is like a hip

we a drug- and there was the Hells Angels actually got into selling it and distributing it. It was a it was this crazy. But the problem was the hell angels. Hell's angels got the dosage wrong, so they gave everybody. Way too much, and there was this big. This big protest in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco in San Francisco call called the human being and they were pro testing the banning of LSD. That year was one thousand nine hundred and sixty seven, and so everybody went to the Golden Gate Park, took this stuff this sdp and is really high dosages and they all like la they all like. Freaked out and ended up in the hospital, and so what's it made, I don't know it's it's it's some kind of not really LSD available now, I'm sure it is yeah on the dark web. You can I'm sure you can get it yeah. I don't know doesn't sound that great, even in its regular. Proper dose.

Sheldon, has those books called p callin to which are basically cookbooks and how to make. Because I could Alex, and even he like, wasn't that crazy about this one, but but anyway, After all, these people in Golden Gate Park started freaking out and out. Call realize that it was their guy doing this all right, all right! That's enough shut them down! Yeah. If you ever heard of Hamilton Morris. Yeah yeah, he's great, so gyms and Kobe he's great I've. Seen around here, yeah he's the most knowledgeable person that I know in terms for sure yeah these things and he interviewed Sasha yeah I've died, he loves, says yeah. I did yeah he's a takes. A scientific but yeah at a of pro approach to drugs. I mean he's very scientific about like, though, what's happening, yeah out yet ill

about like the way small yeah Scott Simon one yeah I've ever used talking about. He took a cat of annoyed use like it's my crown shocker as feeling on Monday yeah he's he's hilarious when he's blitzed on that show, Hamilton's pharmacopoeia idea is dead right. Yes, yeah, it's amazing Morris is such an amazing documentarian. Yes, yeah, we did a podcast we've done to, but the first one Did we got way too high? We right yeah. I remember you guys talking about that yeah I was, I mean we were useless. It's like a handle to Mars is on the show that was the early days of the pod. As to the early days of the podcast, we often got way too high. I had to figure out how to dial it in yeah the number one thing people ask me what I said I was going on, show they're looking at high with you I would be so useless in impart no information and and plus it's like the opioid make I got like right, my fax, it well doesn't seem like appropriate time to get fuckd up, yeah yeah uhm. What are you trying to do with this book?

Besides, let people know the history of fentanyl DE. Did you feel it with education? The you you can do some good, because people be armed with facts and an understanding and they can make better choices. Yeah, all the above, the governor, like all branches of the US government, have been reaching out to me on this, but that's alright, that's good to hear yeah. I people wanted like this China stuff. Nobody knew anything about what time it was doing and why and and so I'm you know, like the left and the right sort of like like This book, which is a rare consensus, 'cause the the right thing is really into like China is fucking with us. The left wing is really into this. This idea of harm reduction- and that's my big started talking point is like The war on drugs stuff is, I always compare to sex education right I mean we can teach abstinence believe that kids are

going to have sex. Stick our heads in the sand or we can do and kids are always going to have. Sex kids are always going to take drugs, let's try to help do it more safely, and so you know if I've been in rooms where it was like hardcore. Law order. Republicans and I just try to like make my point, like you know, We can keep doing things the way we have failing miserably. Why not Give these other methods a chance. You know and a lot of times they have a proven track record of success in places like you like. What are we waiting for right? Yeah? We have this puritan ideal. You know this the the ideal and then we apply that to drugs, and I just think it's so foolish. It really is and and it's also so politically dangerous to say anything other than that yeah.

I think it's you know. The good news is like the optimistic thing is that that slowly, Changing you know a lot of people say well during the back here. There's a lot of racism. People say like during the crack era. It was all about like lock these people up You criminalize the use, but now that it's like the white politicians, kids, who are dying from opioids. Now, all the sudden This is a this is a health problem, and this is something we need to address as a disease you know, and so that there's no doubt that that's true, but at the same time the positive, is that, like this is spilling into other realms too, so I went to North Dakota. This call town, Grand forks where this eighteen year old kid overdosed and died on fentanyl. And it just shocked the town everyone freaked out, but it. Inspired all these new reforms. So now they have all these new laws in North Dakota like things like the good Samaritan law where,

If someone is with you and they died from drugs, you can police and they want to arrest. You You know what I mean 'cause, that that happens in a lot of places. Still right. If you know they blame the person who were there with and, and they have things like, they can use Skype like a type service when they live in the small rural towns to get a prescription. From a actor far away, they can, they can use the services and and what they told me. Grand forks is that this system

it is it's spilling over to other? Even like alcoholism, now people are starting to think of that as a disease, and so I think there is slow progress being made. Well, that's that's good to hear I mean it just takes time right for people to understand that this is. This is a real issue, that's affecting everyone. I think you're right about the racism in terms of like the attitude about crack versus cocaine and that could clearly be demonstrated by sentencing yeah. I know people were sentenced. The mandatory minimums for crack crack use the hours so much higher. When people got caught with crack or selling crack mean they went to jail for a long time. Where is

people got caught with cocaine, they didn't go to jail for as long and that the treatment there, though the the sentence, is much smaller and doctor Carl hard. You know it. Yeah yeah he's great he's great as well. I've had him on here and he was explaining cyclic. There is no difference. Yeah I like it is this cocaine when this is cocaine? If you want to break it down to the drug, if put on the body, they are the same thing and one of 'em send you away for a long time. One of 'em does yeah well for my book about West Coast Hip Hop called original gangster as I interviewed Freeway Ricky Ross even on here. Yes couple times yeah, so he original Rick Ross. The original regularly at the real Rick Ross exactly and he is sort of the innovation of their era- was called ready, rock and so before people would people preferred to smoke, cocaine, even before crack was invented, freebase right exactly prior got in trouble with yeah exactly

so the innovation was to make it so you didn't have to freebase. It was ready to smoke, so they ready rock and Eazy, E's. First record label. That is called his regular gorillas called ruthless, but they were going to call it Rock house records you know for it. For that reason, mmhm, and so he was a he was a crack dealer. Before I became you got the music industry yeah. The Rick Ross story is pretty the real Rick Ross Store, I should say Rick Ross, Freeway Ricky, which is the with this column, was making millions and millions of dollars did not have any idea that he was involved in that whole all over IRAN, Contra scandal yeah credible yeah. They were using the cocaine money to fund the without consciousness and a nice does yeah yeah. Us. Is it I I

read about him in so I ended up actually playing tennis with him, because I was a really good tennis player yeah. I already was a did. I was a big high school tennis player too. So I was like. Let's do this and he's you know, he's got some years on me? I don't know how old, I think he's maybe late 50s, but he was. He was Buildings are on, we played in like a south central tennis court somewhere, and he he took some games well. His story is incredible because they send him away on the three strikes rule for life and then he was in jail. He learned how to read and learn how to understand the law and he started like literally taught himself to be a lawyer, and then allies like no, the way they use the law was incorrect and unlawful. They three strikes means you get arrested for larceny you get out you get arrested for larceny you get out, you get a less stressful, in one swoop, so they

leave him two charges at the same time and then put him in for three strikes and he was able to successfully prove that was wrong. That's why he's out right now, wow! He! so one of the things he taught me that you know you guys your butt crack babies all the time and then he's like cover of Newsweek. He was like you know, crack these are real. That's not a real thing! He he said that his, I believe you hope, I'm not speaking out of school. I think, like his wife, like maybe smoke crack while his son was in utero, never had any problems and he's like yeah look around do do your research click crack. Babies is not a real thing. That's crazy, because I remember hearing that as well at crack. Babies with thing we were all worried about in the 80s, all my god wait till the year two thousand all these crack babies are twenty years old, yeah, that's where they now, where are they now? Maybe there mumble rappers, I mean that's what's going on, maybe I shouldn't laugh at that. Did though,

because, because you understand real rap music, may I just worried about really about right. I know it's just so lame. Yeah like that kids these days, I'm definitely that's who I am yeah embrace. Are you into hip hop? I was as as soon okay, whose whose kinda generation NAS huge NAS fan a gang Starr Love Gang Starr Course Biggie to park. You know the the classics. You know I'm I mean big, Daddy Kane. I love Epmd yeah I love school yeah? Yes, I do you know God to so many is it's just that era. It was like. I mean, there's a couple errors and that I just listed, but this lyrical like NAS, is my favorite of

yes, his lyrics they're. So intricate you know he's he the way he words things like you just go share. You know yeah his lyrics. You just go hello. This is like the king and he's like yeah for lyrics man he's the best was the rewind. What was the one where he played the whole song backwards. Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about yeah the bullet, going back into the gun, all the way through the entire story. He starts at the end and then backs up the story. Raising yeah, it's unfucking classics. I think he's the best writer in all of hip hop, yeah. Well, you know it's just his beats. Don't always hit me the right way, but he's got so many classics he's earned like the right, but but my big, because I did live in New York and I was in east coast. You know like six and like Biggie, is clearly the best ever let me ask real cool g rap yeah he's I mean he's the original he's the

he's fine, undisputed underground guy. Like people don't know that list like some of the greats of all time, people don't say cool g rap, go back and listen to block, and that is the best songs on this day. I'll go! Listen that song to make me laugh yeah, It was uh yeah that. Like 80s, New York stuff is so so much of it Hill Street so like So intellectual, so amazing word play yes, but see when I came to Ellee, though everyone's like Tupac, Tupac, Tupac, and I was like I don't get it man he's his flow- is not that great. You know I just don't get it, but but the more I I like listen to his lyrics, the more I saw is more than just a rapper. He was like a cultural influence. And she was like a political leader to a lot of people and finally, I'm like. Yes, I get it, he stood for something and now

now like I just don't hear biggie the same way. You know because so many of his songs are about you know, party. In crime and stuff in the bigger message of Tupac. Really won me over and then well, I don't think it's a competition, but I know what you're saying I mean to to pop definitely had a different vision, but you also have to realize, but you How old was he when he died? Yeah? Twenty four yeah yeah, I mean two. Twenty five and one of my favorite videos of Biggie is Biggie, stand on a street corner when he was like one thousand six hundred and seventeen years old rap and see that I think I have a son with a lumberjack stuff. Yeah he's got a I I I think you might even have a piece of paper in his hand or is like reading the rap all boys got it like in case he up his forget a low was so good, even as a little kid there's a fucking kid man there

as good as any rapper alive. What do you find that? Can we play that will get in trouble I'll play it for you after yeah? Well, after the podcast will play and his his breath control in like yeah wait. Sometimes I feel, like you got to be like that. Almost some amazing singer, rapper well comedians to laugh at comedians Like Patrice O'Neal one of the greatest of all time. There was something about his Garth. Who's on stage like power and the like, holding the laws as he's got yeah, that's amazing. Yeah summer was small towel. Oh yeah, you're right, it's seventeen years old and said I and mass murder in it murder in not doing the around them. Look at everybody You know I saw this early tupac videos and heard early Tupac recordings and his Original style influence was actually fresh

Prince of Bel AIR, it was as I answer for for hump yeah designer yeah. He was like in the background of the Humpty Hump dance, yeah yeah, Arsenio Hall. You can see him yeah, yeah, no Tupac was a dance I mean, and when he was young, which is really interesting when the interview on he was like, he wasn't thugged out at all, like a the son of two black Panther. Yes, you know the politics is always his thing. What is that from he had that movie come here. That's right, yeah yeah, that was his like solo debut, while yeah underground. Whatever happened to them, Humpty dumpty have shocked yeah he's still around he's. They were so good. They had great schitt when you write, a song, that's as profitable as the Humpty dance. I would imagine the kind of like saps your need to to do

much else in that set, but I he has, though, he's he's the real deal. There was a lot of great hip hop in that era. I mean, I'm sure, there's a lot of great hip hop now. But to me it's like it's almost like, like I'm, a classic rock fan as well. If I'm sitting there and I'm bout to go for a drive in like what I listen to nine times out of ten I'll, go to learn, skynyrd plan or the doors or do you know the Allman Brothers Tom, petty love, Tom, petty I just go. Out. Those classics, for whatever reason, since there's so much music. I know there's great stuff out Now. I still listen to some great stuff. Now I love the black keys. I love them, they're, still putting out killer ship the vampire weekend. Album is amazing. I don't know if you've heard that what's that vampire, in there from New York. It's a it's a band there, the lead singer, Azar Keineg, is with uh. What's up same Jones from parks and recreation. This Jones, new band,

not that new, but our weekend, so amazing Lana Del Rey's album, great shift out. There did no doubt, but it's just it's almost there's too much is like That is great about it. Can I mean it's an untapped like it's a well that never runs dry yeah! That's what it is. I always go back to it. Well, it's interesting me too. That much of I mean I, I x suite, which it's weird. When we talk about drugs, because drugs seem like a a blanket expression that you can throw over, things are good and bad things that are productive like caffeine, and things are terrible like but there's a lot of music that you would say is like well what the fuck happened between one thousand nine hundred and sixty and one thousand nine hundred and seventy 'cause. Something happened. Music of nineteen sixty and you go to the music of nineteen. Seventy We have two thousand nine two thousand nineteen they're the same man. It's like like great stuff stuff

out of Rye NY, but there's no like what the fuck happened, but from nineteen Take me to nineteen sixty nine. What the fuck happened nothing happened and that something is drugs. That's you know it like the whole societal shift, went right around right along with it, they kind of fuel each other. The psychedelics absolutely. I guess that dirt weed smoking probably affected him well the smoke so much of it. It fact of, but you know I talked some people and they said there was always some good weed back. Then you had called Acapulco gold or whatever, but there was no botanist some fucking scientists are working on, like some of that. We today was forty plus percent thc, mind numbing You know you can't feel your feet. You know that kind of stuff like if they had any of that NY. Just like I just came back to LA for the first time recently went into a legal we'd start for the first time by anything. But but there are like the does,

judges are so high of them like why there's got to be a kind there market for it, like Micro, dosing of we'd like where's, that what would you want to? that is those c b D. T h c tablet. I heard of their their capsules and it's ten milligrams, ten milligrams to the ten milligram Cbd and it's so nice. This is a nice calm. Mellow high, like just like, appreciate things a little bit more, the colors little bit vibrant, but you can just walk around and talk to people, you don't he not like you're gonna go home, get on the cover dot, you know and that. But the thing is there's so many like hard core stoners today that they need those high doses, because their tolerance is so high and the just trying to melt their face off like every time they go in there they're trying to find some thing that held face off harder. I just like I don't know man psychedelics like LSD,. You know I'm like going in the other direction. Really like we went

vegan. You know like not smoking weed, really not like drinking much it's just like. Exercising eating like the best food. I don't know I'm just like trying out this new thing. Just I just I feel good all the time you know what I mean so just experiment, and with my wife, actually listen to like whole foods plant based. So it's not like you. Can crappy, vegan food obviously heard Nikki Glaser talking about this. You know people talk about fake meat and, like the imp double whopper, and I had yeah, but it's like it just makes you feel so. Crappy, like old Lauper, did yeah so like. If you cut out the problem, the process food right that to me is what, is making me feel like I've, enerji energy, all the time. Yes, sleep, better, I haven't gotten sick to you, man, but that's where it's at you know be because your body, your body, will treat you better. That's just how it is drink, more water exercise when you can do you

it all yeah yeah I've been I've, been getting big into that yeah? How bout you yeah? I guess your neck, you talking about yeah, I mean I feel, like all these things were saying all these them. The moves towards a positive lifestyle choices will in also so in some way sort of negate this move towards these drugs, and this this that the tracks of ness of these drugs, if people are drawn towards being healthier and happier and cleaner- and you keep your mind right- You'Ll- be less likely to want to seek this sort of that, be it just escape yeah. It's it's hundred percent. It's like Johann Hari in his book he's been out here chasing the scream yeah. He like blew my mind with some with these revelations that really it's just like people can age out of these drugs. You know I always thought like when you're addicted said heroin or fentanyl. It's like for a lot. If you're never getting free, but when people get their stuff together,

they just age out of it and then they they don't even have to try. So I agree with what you're saying on one side, I think the attractiveness of living a happy healthy life, it's contagious, it's very addicting and that people in addicting in the in the right way. Addictive in the positive way you see someone living a good, healthy life and being being being nice to people and smiling a lot laughing a lot and having your life go well, were you making a good living in your being productive and creative and all those good positive things those are attractive to other folks See that may go is it do I want to be MIKE over there who's doing well or Cindy who's doing well, or do I want to be like those tools that are under the bridge that are living in tents because yeah they have drug addicts, the drug problems. Yeah it's covered k, debate with my wife, because she, you know all these drug

like no locks, no lock, sewn and methadone. These are opioids to so some people criticize it and they say well, you're, just advocating for someone to go off one drug onto another drug and my wife Take is like you know, should really be encouraging people to go off these drugs all together and, like you know whether it's a spiritual approach, meditation all that you know she's, not wrong, but it's just like to the numbers, show what are people capable of doing you know some I don't have all the answers. I don't have the difference for everyone. My friend already Lang, just I just- did a podcast with him this weekend about that and he's free clean for nine months now. I've never seen him look better his eyes. There are spark like he's wow, that's amazing resident he's talking and he detailed, like

all the various ways that he tried to get off and all the different things that he did and nothing worked other than this last time he just kind of hit that rock bottom thing, and had slowly but surely worked his way out of being addicted into this place of sobriety and then two days lead to twenty days led to three months led to where we are now- and you know, he's so happy and you know he's still getting his piss tested like five times a week. You mean he's under crazy because he's under this program, where, if he fucks up, he goes to jail. I think it goes jail long time is not a dealer and is that he didn't do any violent crime or anything like that. It's just a user. It's really strange that they've got him on this. This drug court thing, but what it's doing for him is it's forcing him to be accountable and forcing him to be sober and then he's doing that and and then any saying look I like this, I'm I can I'm happy I'm alive, I'm doing

great, I'm doing shows, and I feel good. It's fucking stories were insane he's so funny, he was so far so much more like vibrant than I've ever seen him before, and it was so I love when I see people doing well, I love I love we had was there, their life is fucked up and now it's not fucked up at all he's doing great. It's on the right path and the more see things like that. I think the better it is for all of us. I think some people, it's like, their identity to be like that guy. Who's like drunk yeah, You know in like the life of the party and even like there's so much like I'm no you know, I'm not a like a teetotaler, but there's so much part of the culture is drinking. You know what I mean and it's there's so many like I'm drinking beer for breakfast, like this amazing and people get caught in that, and it doesn't agree drinking is not for everybody, you know, but they it becomes part of identity, and so we, my wife and I do this

I think, I'll tune yoga. Have you done that yeah and my friend are just he goes on government heart it, as I heard someone else describe it as like totally for drug people who like getting high and because you get that pause in your head, it's like half meditation half yoga is I'm like the world's least flexible person. So it's not like hard yoga, but it's just you have to it's mind over matter stuff, and so you do things like you know. We had this one where you put your arms above your head and hold it in this position and do this mantra for like eleven minutes and you're constantly correcting your posture you're, trying to like look in your third eye and your brain doesn't have time. To wander around and think those negative thoughts and how terrible you are right and at the same time, it's like a physically demanding thing to do I doesn't look like much, but I, your

sweating- and you know my wife likes I got us into that. There's so many recovery stories, because I really think it's it's. It's like a people, think it's a chemical thing, it's like a mind thing so often, yes- and I think that the ability to silence all the internal chatter that you were just discussing like that thing, like you think about being a terrible person or you hate yourself, for that is so common with people, and so many people just live with those those thoughts bouncing they had and they don't have an outlet and that's another reason why they turn to alcohol turn to drugs, to try to like Squaw, that chatter, but when you force- One of things that I really love about yoga is, no matter. What's going on in my life, it's business, stuff, personal stuff, a creative stuff. It is bothering me I can do yoga and the difficulty of those poses

makes me concentrate almost entirely on them and I take a concerted effort to just think about my breathing and meditation you'll go off track and you start thinking about things are going to pay. That bill are going to do this thing. All I got to make sure I call that guy, but you can get right back on a track if you always concentrate on your breathing, always concentrate on the post junior breathing concert in the pose and just know that you're going to get off track a couple times to ending, but enough you'll stay on I could so that there is some sort of cleansing effect and when class is over, I feel better. Is feeling okay yogiji. I do hot yoga like the crime victim, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a funny book about that. The guy who started that I have some in my psych yeah, but that still fuckedup about the place that I go to, they actually change the name. You really called the criminal will disguise to fuckin' radioactive and they teach the same.

Postures which he didn't even invent by the way, and these are is thousands of years old, this price and this sequence- he didn't even invent he just somehow your eyes doesn't yeah popularized. It look as grow is that guy is he's done a huge service by spreading his yoga across the country, and it's it's like many things in life. Things are messy you know like yeah yeah, it's a messy proposition, and this guy you could say well fuck yoga, because that guy's yoga yoga yoga is a physical practice. By millions and millions and billions of people it's the same, I was with the the leader Kun to lead this guy named Yogi by John, and he he's gross too. He there's lawsuits against him since he died and stuff, like, I think any, like called people, called like they wear white there's, but he came from the moon, job Region in India and the Cuda yoga was like only for the bra mens are only for the like elite class

so what he did was he came to the u and he brought it for like the common people, and so there were people, apparently who were so upset about this back from India that there were attempts on his life. I heard that You know you the. What is the big? What do you call? your hair in the big turbine yeah bulletproof. No, but someone man with a sword and he had a comb. Stuck in there and it was like of metal come, and that was the only thing that saved his life. From this like sort attack from the back. That sounds like a great story, That's what I would say this sword bounced off my comb and here to teach yoga yeah. That's something happens when people become like a leader of something especially something that's so spiritually, oriented and also sexual there's something about yoga class what in their underwear everybody sweaty and you're all like sort of releasing, and so it's very

sexual in a lot of ways. That's why people think yoga teachers like the hottest teachers like give like a yoga teacher your friend, was Osaka Yoga teacher. Yeah. Well, my wife steak and uh, training. So so that's amazing. I think it's just like their little. You have like an aura. You know what I mean is on here about it they're just focused and yeah. You know I'm taking your being more C. N! Yes, for men for gross men, problem is like, like all these women are, like you, you've. Probably such amazing things. There are another yeah using thing for your hand. Well I mean recall I mean it's like quit the stereo type like have a cold, but don't make it about seducing the underage in the card don't make it about the women. I always that it always they always become sex cults, yeah exactly

I send don't like steel of my everyone's money like yes, change the script a little bit this time yeah, I mean everything from Waco to Jim Jones, to add to all yeah if they wanna everybody's wife and take all the money yeah exactly does that. Naturally, it's documentary that place in bar again yeah. It's amazing, yeah, amazing, again: sex sex and money. It was all about sex that guy was banging everybody orgies in there crazy. But that's always what happens. It always becomes some wacky sex cult, all yeah ways. Yeah, I mean that's the number one thing that makes people distrustful of cults sex and money, yeah things that people want to life the most. These are prob, Lee other than love, which is probably the wisest choice. That's part of it too yeah. I like it. So I needing someone to care, value. That's why people join gangs, no ice t talks about that. His own parents never said they loved in in the game.

They they were like. I love you right now. He wasn't in the Crips, but you'd like friends, and now he took him in Yeah um people want meaning. You know meaning in life, and I agree with you what you said also about a lot of times: people use drugs drink or whatever, whatever it is, that's device advice they become a prisoner to that thought like that this is their identity. I this is MIKE Mike. The trunk look at my key. In fact, I I have every night. Well, you know some of the best advice I got is like is to not be so worried about your identity. Like think of it, it was a small I instead of a capital, I like it, I think about myself in certain ways you know I'm like I'm like the guy who likes hip, hop, I'm the The guy who does this or that and that's you know, but like I need to be that guy like if I don't listen to hip, hop I'll, learn about all this other music that I might like even better. The more you just strip that stuff

the the more you can get to the essence of who you really are yeah the more you just just enjoy things and not wonder whether you should be enjoying them or whether they fit your package yeah. So it's not just someone, but many people have said this to me it's one of Roces thing anybody ever that they are really love. What you do with your brand that is, but the fact that people people get through that stuff so easily you're really doing that I'll yeah they can. But it's also like the idea that you that you or a brand you rebrand Ben Westhoff, you brand you yeah what is a brand, a person's brand love, what you're doing with brand like, and so. If you ever meet me, don't say that well Thank you. I think you probably, so. Fine, just saying what you really think and I think that dad

is your bread? I mean it's lame. Is that sound like not having a brand is like your brand kind of? Fortunately, I developed fuck, you money. At a time where I like, during the fear factor days, I got fuck you money and I used it to say fuck you and so like it used it, so I just saw this is why I am like I'm nice good guy like, but this is how I think about things: I'm not I'm not going to like the pro problem with Hollywood? It's one of the giant problems is that you're always trying out for the next thing you always auditioning and that's a people develop an incredibly disingenuous mindset because the mindset is, I want to be manipulative to the cast agents in the producers. I want them to like me, so I want to adopt whatever conglomeration of ideas they have politically socially. I want to fit in so this is why

Hollywood is almost like universally left wing. It's not because the people are all they all think exactly the same way because they're creative types- and that would be all right, but that's not what it is. What it is is the people that run the show know that this is how shows run the show's run through progressive thought. Democrat. You support these candidates. You want a woman president. You wanted this one of that you've everything that the left stands for, and so these people they don't even have their own opinions. They just have these opinions they've adopted because they think it's going to help them get through, and so then they do get through and then to become famous and then they go who the fuck am. I they don't know who they are. They don't and then, when it do you think, hey tell us your opinion on this, like all my God,

don't even know what their opinion is: 'cause, they didn't have never really developed opinions. They've developed an act in that act is save the things that these people would like you to say so that you can continue to work so that you can get picked if there's two people that are up for a role and one of them is like this, staunch Libertarian who's like this pull yourself up by your bootstraps, saying that you know doesn't believe in white privilege and and the other one is like super progressive. I call myself a male feminist. I want a woman president, like that guy gets the role yeah, both I mean that's. The ironic thing too, though, is like a lot of you know like liberals see Hollywood, as action, airy play in its own right. You know what I mean like the right wing. Christian part of the culture sees Hollywood. Is this horrible cesspool, but then the left wing season is playing to these you know the Weinstein stuff, all the like. Worst elements of

male dominated corporate culture, epitomize in Hollywood. So it's funny how it's hated on by yeah the sample size, but I think that Weinstein stuff is the same thing as the cult stuff. It's just like you got a guy gets power and he has a bunch of people that have to like he he creates their careers like you want to be in this movie, you gotta suck, and that's what he did. I mean he literally did the casting couch thing, a grand, you're. So awful yeah, it's it's what happens. To so many people where they have a position where they're taking people in their hiring them and putting them in these magical positions. Look at her she's on the big screen she's a star. I could have been the star, but I didn't have sex with Harvey and then this is. This is creates that culture like I just did just ran through that business with impunity me he was just doing it that way for ever yeah, I think

I don't like when you look at Hollywood movies like what it is and what the formula became wonder if this is if this is like something that developed organically or if it like we're hardwired to want to see this kind of like take the three act structure right like Every movie has ever three act structure, whether it's most independent or the biggest Hollywood. So like why? is that is that part of our brain. It takes songs like pop songs. There also shared the same first chorus, verse bridge You know, of course, again and I don't know well, you read any Joseph Campbell yeah. I I I haven't read it, but I know the basic ideas: yeah Joseph Campbell, the the you know the the journey of the hero, the hero's journey. All all that like mirrors itself, like that, that's the structure of most of these fantastic story where this hero goes through

this transformation and face is this adversary and overcomes it in this story is sort of structures repeated over and over again it's it's something. That's like deeply embedded in our deeply embedded in the psyche of human beings, yeah well, yeah there you go yeah, there's the answer: yeah, and so when I'm trying to write a book like this. I want to. I want there to be narrative and tell stories, you know what I mean like there's drug books out there and it gets way deep in the neuropharmacology and you know, but it's like. Ultimately, you know thirty thousand dying of fentanyl is a horrifying statistic, but it's almost impossible to your mind around it. When you know one person who died like my friend,

who is Michael Schaefer Mayer in twenty ten, he died from fentanyl patches, I'd, never heard of Fenton Ill at the time patch Killam he patch and he was drinking at the same time, but then what actually literally killed him was when he he was sleeping with his face in the pillow anything you like cut off. You know it just cut off his breathing of disease. He didn't like have the strength to move all my God, and so so that's why they think these these number of that's actually might be under counted because his death was listed. I believe is like cardiac arrest or something It doesn't even show up as a fentanyl death, for example, and so, but just just that one story means much more to me than thirty thousand people,

I don't know, for example, you know what I mean yeah, that's the problem. What is the old expression? The death of one person is a tragedy. Death of a million is a statistic yeah. I think that was. I think that was a nazi that said that wasn't it kerbals. Someone like that. I forgot it was in someone terrible had that expression, but we we don't there's so many people. That's also part of the problem, like three people die every year from aspirin. One hundred and fifty people die every year. 'cause coconuts fall on their head over. I don't know, I think Tylenol actually has the narrowest like therapy. Check window. It's not really. A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths statistic when one dies is it tragedy when a million dollars in statistic yeah? Well, that's a little redundant,

what do you say to ISIS that array of people a lot of times I've tried? You know many people have successfully killed themselves with Tylenol, because it's got such a narrow therapeutic window like the amount that makes you feel better versus the amount that will kill. You is not that far apart and it's the same with fentanyl and that's why I like you, could drink too much water and kill yourself right. And there was a woman who did that on a radio show contest really trying to win like a game station like a xbox or something for a kid it was like in. I believe it was in San Jose and they were having a water drinking contest and there's also kids have done it. There were getting hazed for for fraternities yeah. He died yeah and people. You're a lot about ecstasy overdose deaths because people didn't drink enough water,

So like MDMA, isn't usually what kills you? It's like you you're in the hot sun, at a rave, you overheat, you drink, you don't drink enough water, but actually some people have heard that and then they drink too much water and that kills them at a rave. How much water kills you don't want to have to drink before. I think probably will say yes on link a gallon an hour for five hours. I think it will kill you a gallon. That is a ton of water for one hour yeah. I think that'll kill you for five hours five hours. I have no idea I've yet. Yes, now playing a game, I'm I'm guessing. No, I'm I'm thinkin three gallons an hour for a nap for three hours, you're dead to get the over under. On that. What? What does it say? Jim? Is there a statistic? The Miller model Miller Milam that kids Miller more

yeah. That thing that's like for at test sodium level thing, so alright, yeah blood level tickets to your brain. That's what can funk you up, so I'm trying to find out also dilutes, dilutes. What, if you drink water with a lot of salt in it, then you're, probably just pay it out, could probably get sodium toxicity by the way that will. Give you x, above LOS of Diarrhea trust me on that last year, we're doing the sober October. Fitness challenge were doing also me and my it is registered to yeah, but last year we went crazy with it. We had a fitness challenge this year we just once over and we did bunch classes and different things. But last year we went like five six hours of cardio a day like ninety, and I was drinking literal, which is g giant, sixty four leaders of water with Epson salts or not, Epson, salt, himalayan salt in it. And if you don't get that mixture right, that stuff will come

rocketing out of your asses like a broken fire, hydrant, it's crazy and then I googled it afterwards. I was like what is that and then I googled it it's actually going to salt enema by drinking a bunch of salt, for whatever reason I guess your body just goes hey. What is all this water and salt this? I sick something's wrong here, everybody out of the pool and it just Beckford on yeah yeah, it's just, but do you got to get it right? It's just in the email, any like a teaspoon. You don't need like multiple tablespoons yeah? Well, I've been you know. I ran a marathon and I'm into long distance running and it's gotten to the point where, at first I was I was. I was doing it for my health. You know what I mean I was like. I'm get next. Can my work out and get exercise then I grew to like it so much that he was like Maggie. Tivoli affecting my health. You know like I ran maybe ten miles with my buddy Jeff, the other day

And I just sell the hopeful afterwards, but I I love doing it. You know what you feel awful because you're I don't know I was a graduate, my kids and yeah my level. Nice. Do you know everything was depleted in it's tired and hungry and then the next day I was so are, but it's funny when you cross that plane to just wanting to do the thing itself. Yes, well, that's a high as well yeah. We see where the endorphins you get from running. I never really experienced that the way I did during that sober October thing, because one of the things that me and my friends talked about was how, when you do do cardio for like five six hours a day, you don't give a fuck like you, like. All of your folks, are gone. Yeah like things don't bother you people can yell at you, like, oh hi, keep yelling yeah doesn't mean anything. I can things, don't bother you weird like you're on some, I don't give a fuck drug, and I was talent we were all talking about is like if you could take that drug. How great would that drug be because

You don't use any cognitive function, it's not like you're high and you can't figure out what's going on now, you're the exact same person, but you have zero internal chat. And zero negative thinking. It's like it's gone. It's yeah. I wonder the meditation is the closest that I get to that. You know things bounce off you, you don't like judge everything so careful so harshly. You just like things come in you process, it You react in your own time letting your ego get in the way. I think there's a certain amount of physical requirements that all of our bodies have and Most of those physical requirements are not being met and then when you do something that where's your body out here, though and then you realize, like a lot of that. Anxiety was just as excess energy yeah it's just this, and does this body which is designed to be able to perform your body's designed to be able to you know, carry groceries and you know, run away from

animals are trying to get you all these different things that your body evolved to be able to do, and then most of what you do is sit in car, sit on the train set in your chair at the office and that's what a lot of people do and because your body's layers? Well, there yeah exactly I went to the boundary waters. You know the boundary waters Canoe area in northern Minnesota. What is this like this amazing chain of lakes? Where there's no motorized boats allowed there's no motors at all some parts of it. Planes can't even fly over and it's all portaging so you take canoes and then from kickin it to connect one like to another. Have to carry your canoe over your head and, like maybe maybe quarter mile. Some is like a full mile. You got your big packs on with a canoe canoe overhead. Well, it's two people carrying the canoes as long it is long and it's like the

most amazing. Full day workout we would get up at dawn and in like we've, been canoeing and portaging all day, and I had no idea my it could handle it. I get my like thirty minutes of exercise in every other day, and I'm like I'm good, but now we're exercising hardcore like eight hours a day and my body just loved it by the end of it, it was like. Oh, we have to go back to the city life again and it's not looking forward to it. Yeah if you get your body used to that, like I imagine if you Cortana Ranch or something like that, you throw in bales of hay, everyday and doing chores and walking around your body is just going to become accustomed to it. Your body becomes accustomed the demands that you require of it, but most people, just don't their body enough and it's really disappointing thing that we're really intelligent people connect exercise with being a superficial thing and there's less of that now there was when I was younger, but that

exercised in your into your appearance, and you were, you know, were trying to look good I'm working on it, you are somehow another shallow yeah, a meteorite concerned with books and like intellectual pursuits, yeah right, but those things are not mute. Exclusive right, exactly you're, really smart. You realize that this is the only fucking body. You have yeah you're, really smart. You realize that it's good to have a body. That's not disgusting, yeah the whole like hope. I die before I get old like Metallica. I don't agree with that. Like my kids, like sports, is our bonding thing. It's like sports. Ford Sports, where it's all day long and I said to stop to think that for a little while, I'm like there's other things in life You know what I mean. What's the values that I'm imparting on my kids for doing sports, but ultimately it's just like a sense of exercise. You know Is there some competition? But it's like it's not like the

trying if they lose. You know a healthy sense of that and this idea that you want to see exercise and physical activity as your friend, because that's yes and you're, going to use your whole life. That is a great lesson and again to bring it back to fentanyl and drugs and dogs. Have escaped the more you can emphasize the more we all can emphasize healthy choices with your life, the less attractive those escapes will be yeah, you. I think it is. You know why the people, you know the sad thing is The opioid epidemic was so often started by people who are prescribed drugs from their doctors, and so that's other thing, there's a sea change happening right now is that there's

these new regulations about what doctors are allowed to prescribe they're, trying to discourage them from taking opiate from prescribing opioids and that's a positive shift. I think for people who are new patients right so like if you get a root canal, you don't need some crazy, strong op. You know it. You know our it's like to recover from a dental procedure whatever, but the problem is that now they're start to take away peoples opioids when they've been on them for a long term like I talked to coming from Colorado and she had a disease. I can't remember rheumatoid arthritis or something she's been taking opioids for years and years and years and now all the sudden, the doctor it's like. I can't give you these anymore. You have to take these classes about alternatives to opioids, you know, and they talked about acupuncture and yoga and stuff like that. Now that's great, but she felt like just

hey. You know. An studies have shown that people, if they get their opioid pills, taken away, we're going to turn to St Heroin. As a result and so but the whole the whole thing is insanely complicated yeah. You talked about that. There's three waves right. The first wave is the pill. Second Davis, St Heroin and then third wave is found, yeah exactly and so golden facing the rapper questions from the first one and that's what all these lawsuits, so you hear about in the news are all about and the the the the another scary thing is that up until now, people have been asking for fentanyl by name like we said it's just put in other drugs, but now, in places like San Francisco, even Saint Louis Fentanyl is starting. To acquire reputation as a street drug because longtime heroin addicts, don't don't get high anymore,

You know what I mean they take heroin and it just gets rid of their withdrawal. Symptoms, and so Fentanil will get them high again, and so people are starting to seek it out. It's a bummer uh. I hate to end it like this, but I think my the best way yeah. Thank you thanks for being here, tell everyone your book fentanyl ink it's available now, oh yeah, absolutely it's uh, yeah fence in a link how road chemists are creating the deadliest wave of the opioid epidemic and thank you I really appreciate it was good talking to you. I enjoyed it. Thank you. Bye. Everybody. Thank you. Everyone for tuning to show and thank you to our sponsors thing. Q2c Bdmd. Ladies and gentlemen, The oil is so fucking good for you and Cbd. Md has a new thing called

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