Daryl Davis is an R&B and blues musician, activist, author, actor and bandleader. He also is the author of "Klan-destine Relationships: A Black Man's Odyssey in the Ku Klux Klan".
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Rogan my guest today, what an inspirational human being, let me tell you about this. Guy Daryl This is a musician place. All kinds of music piano plays countrymen, Can roll blues it musician, and he also has converted racists, He is converted KKK members now sub to around two hundred two hundred. Racists and even nazis, have given up their this. Ideology is toxic thing that they were doing As of this man's work and the story- incredibly inspiring. I do want to say any more. I want you to listen to it. One of my favorite podcast
a long time. Please welcome. Darrell Davis will gain experience ass, a joke. Are you do my pleasure through? Thank you for being here really ledges oil appreciated. Thank you. I Eddie story. I saw a thing about you on NPR and is crazy, youve converted how many people too, hundred KKK members get them to drop the robes life some directly. Some indirectly is how then will happen while you know, I keep running into these guys, I'm a musician by trade, right globalization, right rock and roll Blues swing, jazz reason jazz, but a out operate have to play, Are you paying I'm playing so I hereby like music, now, even the KKK so
use that, due to my advantage, I was play in a bar one night in Frederick Marilyn White Bark and when I say all right, I don't mean that blacks can go in what it means that the chose not to go and they went well. And here I was in this bar with this country band, a friend of mine's man- I was only black guy in the Van only black guy in the bar and On finishing the first said this. I'm walking to the ban table and somebody came up there Where are my shoulder to answer those are my gentleman, maybe fifteen eighty years older than me and Does it really enjoy your old music? Thank you, oceans and any point the stage and said you know It is your band before by never see before when you come from an aspirin yeah, they tell me they played here before but this is my first time in this place. I just joined the band. Man I would like your piano plan- was the first
never heard a black man play piano like Louis and I wasn't dumb, I wasn't offended, but I'd rather surprised as I said, those guys like maybe fifty years older than me, he did not know the black origin of jury. There was still a piano plan, as I explained to him. I got from the same place generally did from black blues and boogie. Will you piano? Players were the guy was incredulous? Are not unnaturally invented that I never know. Let me put it like that, so few, something ok with this guy, I never heard of Little Richard Org or fast domino, and man. I know Julie losses. A friend he's told me himself me himself with another play guided by the many Julie hidden by the We need from black people, but it was so fascinated that you want to buy me a drink, a novelty to him,
so that was table had a grand Bruges and then he announces. This is the first time I was set down had a drink with a black man, and now I'm I'm noise incredulous like how can that be, and I sat down with thousands of white people. Anybody else had a meal, a beverage conversation how's. This guy had never done that and innocently. I asked him: why didn't answer me at first, he stared down at the table top, and I asked him again and his buddy sitting as dim elbowed him aside. As it tell him. Tell him tell him also tell me roughly what is this mystery and made his plan is daily, says: I'm a member, the complex plan. Well, I burst out laughing, it was getting whereby the second and I knew about but the plan
been studying reasons. I was a ten year old kid there's went inside, it can happen in back then about both on black supremacy, white supremacy, the KKK, the Nazis and Neonazis. Tricked credit understand this mentality, and I knew a clansmen would not come up and you throw out some black eye shoulder praises talent in one of your hang out with him by my drink saw those guys joking around some laughing and he goes out his pocket and put out his wallet and produces Clayton membership They have cards. Oh yeah yeah gave me his card. I looked at it and I recognise the clan insignia, which is a red circle with a White cross and a red blood drop in the center of the cross areas. Oh man since real, so I stopped laughing, wasn't funny and I gave it back to him and would shouted about the plan, indifferent things, but the dude his phone number and one
call him whenever I will return to this bar. So your brain, his friends, meaning clansmen, lands women to see this black eye pilot jointly. A mushroom call me a black eye to his friends were better so that guy you, though I would call it every six weeks on a Wednesday or Thursday as a man, you know we're down at the US over daughter, no Friday and Saturday come on out. He cannot both nights. He bring clansmen class women come and gather around the ban, stand and watch me for the piano or get out there and danced or music now, you know they didn't come and Robin Hood right. They came in through close and I'm on the brake. I would it has tabled, say hello. Some of them are very Curiously, hang out there and want to meet me and talk to me, others with sea becoming and get up and take off and good stance on the part of the room. Where is like, I want to see you at all. I deal with you so that,
fine- and I decided later on, I would write a book because I've been looking for an answer to a question It formed when I was aged ten. My question was: how do you hate me? Will you don't even know, and this was a result of having marks in a cub scout parade at the age of ten being the only black scout in to supper aid, and why most people on the streets and sidewalks with cheering us yeah we're marching from Lexington to Concord, this too commemorate the right of peer Revere and we worked Wavin flies in the elegance meaning the British are coming in all the time. A civil one, small packet of people who were throwing rocks and bottles at me and at age. Ten. My first thought was: oh those people over there. Don't like the scouts,
That's not what was it wasn t, my dear mother, my cup master, my tributor all came rushing over and huddled lower move their bodies is why people an escort me out of the danger, but I realized I was only target with nobody else, was given this protection, and these were adults. Are these rather chill. These were a couple of maybe about five people. I may be a couple kids, my age, you're, older and some adults the walls were thrown rise in bottles at a ten year old boy, that's correct! While and I agree I consented to lead Maya. My Scotland is, I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything but not trying to find out. What did I do right? What? Why are you doing this to me, right at the Gypsy Ocean me told me: the hurried move along you'll be ok, so they never answer the question as well. When I got home that day after this parade, my mother,
father who were not? There were put immature Grauman bandits on me and ass. Had I fall down and get a postscript up. I don't want it fall down. I do exactly what had happened and for the first time in my life, my mom and dad sat me down and explain to me what racism was at the age of ten. I had never heard the term racism, not what uses nineteen sixty eight. I tell you why, because my dad was a: U S, foreign service, so we spend less time overseas.
Every two years you go to a country you there for two years, come back home for a few months and they get reassigned another country. So when I was overseas, an elementary school, my classes were filled with kids from all over the world. Anybody who had an embassy in those countries all US embassy, kids, what are the same school, my classes, full of kitchen, Nigeria, ITALY, France, Germany, Japan, Russia, you name it if you were to open the door. My classroom stick your head, and you say this was that United Nations a little kids huh, that's exactly what it was, and we all that long. Then. I would come home after that to your assignment and I would be either all black schools or of white schools or black holes, or black and white schools, meaning the still segregated or the newly integrated schools
and there was not the amount of diversity in my classroom than I had overseas. Today you walk into a classroom. You know you can't to whip up from from all over, so literally between eighteen, sixty one and like making sixty eight seventy. I was living about twelve years into the future when I was little overseas because that that multicultural seen have yet to come to this country and when it did, of course I was already prepared on fourteen May. My peers were not so earnest militarism had I live here might mean, oh my whole life, I'm going to have a different perspective and not taking this path. So I was very curious about it and fascinated with it. Life hop and somebody hit you and they don't even know. You was just beyond my comprehension and
I knew something was wrong, because the people who did this to me did not look any different than my little french friends, my swedish friends, what my fellow Americans from the embassy or for that matter, my fellow Americans right there. You know at the school where I went what we did the march. So I knew it wasn't a color thing. In fact, when my parents told me this, I did not believe my parents, I fought for some reason there's a line to me with my tenure, o Brien could not process. The idea that someone who had never seen me had never spoken to me knew nothing about me would want to inflict pain upon me for no other reason than the color my skin, so I do not believe them well a month and a half later that same year and in the sixty eight on April, the fourth market. The thing was assassinated and I remember very well. We were in Massachusetts, sample
and nearby Boston, Washington DC, my hometown, Chicago Illinois, Philadelphia, Detroit Baltimore Richmond Delay all burned to the ground with fire, lives and destruction all in the name of this new word that I had learned call racism, and so then I realized my parents tell me the truth. This this phenomenon for racism does exist, but why Adams, then? Why ok so is here, but why- and so that's when I form that question, how do you hate me? We don't even know me, and so I voted for the answer to that question now for fifty one years. I must do one years old, so
after I I I met this plans. Man show maybe no three. Four months later I put that band and went back to play and rock and roll and blues and I'd be, and then it dawned on a girl. You know the answer that you ve been so giving since aged ten, fell right into your lap. Who better to ask the question of. How can you hate me? We don't even know me then, to ask it somebody who would go so far as a joint and organization whose sole premise has been hating, people who do not look like them, not believe as they believe and this organisation has been around for over a hundred years. Somebody would do that for join the KKK should damn sure have an answer to your question. So get back in contact with that guy and want to write a book because I had every book. I still do
Reboot written plan, and they all were written by white authors. Obviously, because a wide author would have less fear of ram ramifications, got into it Anyone or reviewing them who have easier access or could join the plan. Undercover get the story get out and write about it. So my book became the first book ever written by a bluff author on the hook us plan for the perspective. Of setting down face to face. I decided I would go around the country interview clearly. Is there merrily where I live up north down South MID West and West and Alexander Restorative Merrill, so I got a hold of a guy and I want him to introduce me to the family. From Maryland blows his reaction. When, when I told you I grab the microphone just pulled trivial close to it, perfect, what was his reaction when you called Urban said hey, I want to know what makes you guys tick.
Why are you doing us were actually look familiar than that the I am, I think, the guy's number in open the box, and soda will- and am I call it- is like months later and deliberately been disconnected the tracking down, turned out. He moved in an ever phone they will get an address as though, I had no way of knowing you know letting him know come over doctor. You so sugar, but his apartment one evening and knock on the door and the data while right here, when seasoned with all we know what are you doing here and it and he's dead into the hallway up and down the hallway survive, brought anybody with me now and when he stepped out of his apartment. I stepped in so you don't really comes back in What are you still playing was one on as it yet I blame, but I need to talk to you with the plan.
The plan as yet you remember right whose well I was, but I quit When into this long dissertation is awake with the plan so long story short. I said I want to meet the clan meter he quit the clan because of his interaction with you know not now actually he'll he lied to me. Ass, he would no longer in the clan but What happened was he said he he quit you didn't, he didn't like their ideology. I it found out that my research that and I got this from the guy who banished him the leader of the other, the planned group vanished yeah, that's their term. They banishing ok, so
every year players, not gay critical limit the meat when the hierarchy of the plant. Ok, ok, today there is no such thing as the secrets clan. There used to be that today there are many fluke, exclaimed groups and they, or autonomous that use the same name who clocks plan you might have the Dixie nights slam the confederate night. But when the rebel nights on and on these are all separate. Two bucks, fighting groups They believe in the same ideology ology where this and colors on their robes that designate their rank. The heads same secret handshake this later
secret answer just like us, and we are sure to you later be area would do later. We can tell people in case they don't have enough. I get reveal Cleon Secret, ok, series of those same passwords, everything their password, and, as we understand the plan was formed in eighteen, sixty five at the end of a civil war and was formed by a by sits confederate soldiers? who were of Irish scottish descent and what they did. What they borrowed the the rituals or some rituals and names and mystery from the scottish right, the masons ran this or that I was there does ensure exactly precisely to have dragons yeah yeah. Ok: here's how the hierarchy works are so over the years central split, apart into different splinter groups, a plan
so and they all arrivals with each other. If you see cognitive and planned groups out in public, they will hold a you'd a unified front, but behind closed doors they don't like each other real yeah, You know what the real value of the other wanna be plan that collated and competition thing, because had been sent at one time that something happened, somebody embezzled planned, is or didn't give him did you know whatever so anyway? If you have a chapter of your particular plan group in another state or in multiple states. You may then consider yourself or Europe, to be a national plan group, therefore you must have a national leader, so over he's all the states in which you have a chapter of Europe, particularly group, so. We call our national leader, the president. And terminology that Britain
is known as the imperial wizard, Anybody who is prefixed with the word imperial means that person is a national officer, wizard being the top? I appeal was black, a president and imperial cliff would be like a vice president and you have secretaries treasurers home, nerves and then the next level down would be state the head of the state, which we call the governor that person is known as a grand dragon. Anybody grand is on the state level, did officer Dragon being the top governor, a grand life would be like a lieutenant governor and then Secretary treasure then, within the state, live counties the county is known as the great tighten anybody rate level doesn't look as on the journey level within the county. You have districts what they call Clarence and we would a district leader, a mayor, councilman aldermen that
the visuals known as they as an exalted Cyclops altered Cyclops around them. You would say, Sir, altered, Cyclops. Why that's hilarious so anyway, Why Cyclops best well, that's an image shows Then it was Cyclops. Then whether with one eye and then it s forehead yeah. But you have to have all these different names and the Miller the Cyclops adjusting the rank and file plain white robed. Clansmen. Frenchwoman though I wanted to, to meet the other start in Maryland. Where I live, I will start with it. And that of American. They need good, have several different land routes in the same state and they are rivals with each other a unit of chapters of those same standards with a new state.
So this guy named Roger Kelly, was the agreed dragon from state American for this guy's clan group and radically the time had the largest clan proof in Maryland. How many members they don't give up numbers but Roger had probably just over two hundred good, which is a very high number for that time period. Sometimes, on the only ten members, some you know that The internet presence was only one guy sitting in his basement, you're putting something. But anyway, this guy didn't introduce me to Roger Kelly. I want I want you to be my first interview. And he was terrifies, had not yet do a girl you both to get in trouble. If we do not the plan and that doesn't matter, I cannot take a black man to the grand dragon
so he was concerned generally for my safety as well as his own, and I said well up. Why don't you give me Mr Kelly's address phone number and I will go to his house and talk to him. He would not do that. I begged and pleaded for twenty minutes, finally gave me, Mr Kelly's address phone number, on the condition that I'm not tell Mr Celli, where I got it. Damn I said. Ok, they warn me said: Darrell, like a crack. Under pressure, I want to tell you what why he got banish, ok, blessed, Nonetheless, coming later he warned you do you want me, and now he's a Darrell do not deny the right of this house who do you have any said, there's a bar I've been Thermo Marilyn. Now you, through Marilyn, you don't know, for the clan, but was one of their headquarters. You with their Might Maryland, because as also the home of Camp David, the presidential retreat and and
headquarters of the place where they went down the road at last year and Burma. The time was all white town. Eight, a black person moved in or innovation couple or gay couple. Somehow mysteriously across would be burned in the yard and boom they move right. Now. That is not. That does not mean that every in our minds in the plans that are not in fact most. Why people there one of the planned gone, but that's where it was ordered. So please it was a bar if there were, they hang out every Saturday night, and if I do that bar I'm sure fine, Roderick, jelly and you're out of town rallying somewhere. He says why don't you to do that. Roger even talk to you, but you're Seyffert reproach him in a public place. Then I'm gonna property did Give you a photograph how'd, you find an ideological. You looked like this. He was always in the news. On the news you're being added
you sound like that. I never met him, but I knew you know his image. So He drew me little map how to get to this place. As an aside that are tonight, I'm sure enough and we He says on do not on do not appear in our approach on his own property as right, so I am a musician, I'm working Saturday night. I I can't go butchers and the clan on Saturday night so as to have sir that point it was never a photon profession. I call my secretary who books my band As you know, do I have any Sundays off. I feel a Sunday supported maybe hangs on Sunday too, She said she got a couple Sundays and I said find the tragically guy she was.
Why, though, with you now here's the problem, she's right now that I have a problem with that black man, one with a white woman, walk into a plan by to be ignored my friends and whether you will not so I said you know Mary interested. Then I want to go on survival. You know you put your own risk it all right, so we drove up. There is Sunday evening, but an hour and a half from my house and my guy get. Perfect directions. There's a place right there when we locked the car worker. These steps and her I said: look I'm gonna walk in first You, you walk right behind me my turn around and face you start running and I'll, be behind you, it's all right. Let's go so we walk in About seven thirty, on Sunday evening, vessels practically empty say it would be no more than sixty seven people in their couple guys in the back playing pool. Sitting at the bar and
the guy. I told me that this was a clan bar and we met by Clam BAR is the plan as an own it, but where they hang out aid. He described to me and when you walk in the door to your left would be a row the first two booze closest to the door. Will you five men are reserved for the clan, so I looked over there and nobody was sitting there. So I'm looking around see, recognise Roger Jelly and see but looks like in which did not mean that some people went clan But I think you know what an answer my right was: a young along bar behind the bar was a mirror and scotch tape to the mirror? Was a picture go from the Washington Post newspaper had a picture of Roger Kelly. That interviewed him about something. W c b was soon them over some kind of cross. Burning ceremony or something- and I read
as the article as well as a big confederate flat on the back. Won't let you have the? U S flat rate, so I knew us in the right place or the wrong way, when are you gonna get away so. I didn't see by looking like Roger Kelly. I think you know. I drove an hour and a half to get up here. I don't wanna go home empty handed, but I didn't want to just walk up to somebody's. Yes, you do, sir, you in the plan So my Sabena Marian standing in the middle of this bar basically look stupid. And not knowing what to do so, I said come on Mary let's go over there and sit and when it was first to Britain's, because plan, is in here they will come to us. And they were now and then we can ask them pay. We know we want to see Roger Kelly, so one of them was set down. Nobody bothers if it was cool.
Eventually we migrated over the bar. I shouted up the das. The next to me like I was lost, isn't directions very nice gimme directions. We failed so we left the next morning, Mary, what's out of my house, I gave a Roger code number Monday morning, as it gives him a call as a tone that your working for somebody who's writing a book. What do you consent to sitting down with your boss and give him an interview? However, do not tell Mr Kelly, but I'm black? If you ask, you know, don't lie to him, but don't dilute to it. Don't you, they'll be curious. She understood and the reason why. I did not want him to know that was aid I figured, If you knew that I give you the interview, but if you greeted to do the interview, denounce it,
We see that I'm black lately beats me. I could decide right then, and there, if you want to continue it or not, but I want him to see me first. Suddenly, If we agree to do the interview, knowing that I was black, he may different answers for Parrot in the interim that you would have for white interviewer. That's supposed to apply him. If you are so, I want to be spontaneous candid Sochi understood and then she called him and he agreed to do the interview. Set it up from the motel above the sober dollar lounge at their Frederick, Maryland and fight, fifty on Sunday afternoon, and Marion. I got there, oh by it several hours early. I versus money centre down the hall to get us a sort of pop out of the machine put in the ice bucket filled with eyes, could alcohol so united offered by Mr Killilea Beverage called beverage
I had no idea what this man would do. What it eyes on me. I saw that I was black. We come in the room. Will you tell me you walk away, but even I want to be hospitable, so should the sort of up nice, but who sit on the dresser now. Just by happenstance. The way The room is laid out. If you are standing in the hallway in the doorway of the room looking into the room you can that's it was in the room is literally walk in the door and you're right and the rules laid out back there. So No, you can levels in the room standing in Norway, as I took advantage of that I did. The lamp tabled the lamp off. Put it in the most obscure corner of the room. I put a chair on one side from me on the other side from Mr Kelly and I had a little bad beside me Duffel Bag and in my bag I had a cassette recorder, blank to set tapes
and a copy of the Bible, because a few clicks clan claims to be a christian organization, and they claim that the Bible preaches racial separation. Now I've read the Bible. I've never seen that in that. So I want to be able to pull up my bible way. Brings it up. I say here, Mr Kelly, show me please and this King James Version chapter and verse where it says, blacks and whites must be separate, so I'm prepared right right on time. It five fifteen knock on the door. I've seen it. Well, you can't seem to come in the room, Mary hops up and by the way, marries white, and as I mentioned before, so she goes round the corner opened the door and ox. What is known as the grand night HAWK night off plan terminology means bodyguard security, so
and I don't get my aims, their names, so ridiculous Cyclops is treads. Whizzer, though on it goes on course grand clerk Rankly be Madge. I all kinds stuff anyway so the grand night off, which means I regarded the grand dragon like an imperial night hot, with bodyguard, impure wizard and walks into Randy Doc he's wearing military camouflage on one side of his chest. Plan emblem that red several whitecross blood drop, on the other side of the initials KKK embroidered on his barrette is the knights of the Cliffs clam and on its head Pierre Semi Automatic handed in holster. He comes in Kelly is working directly behind them in a dark, blue suit and tie when the night I turned the corner and saw me he just froze the aim is to kill you that realise that his night he stopped short,
slammed and it was back and knock them forward, and their stumbling around. We gain in their balance. Looking all round the room and I'm just why watching them and I can see you apprehension in their faces, I read it they were, they were thinking did the desolate. The right room number or just an ambush what's goin on here, so I stood up and I displayed. What was in my hands, as, as you say, I'm unarmed and I walked forward I'm stuck up my right hand as a high. Mr Kelly. I'm directives and he shook my hand. He shook my hand and the night option. And so so far, so good do I'm doing well as it come on in ever see. Please, You Kelly, sat down even better and the night off stood at attention to Mr Kelly's right so I'm here sit down opposite them right. Mr Kelly says to me Mister Davis, Do you have any form of identification? As a sure I put this my wife,
and I handed him my driver's license. Hoot. Oh, you live our second such street and silver sprain. Now this at middle concerned. Why is this man really much street address? All he has to do look at my name. Look at my picture matches up to me and give me back my license. Here. We are looking at my address. If you gonna come, across in MILAN, was up so I do not want to let him know tat. He had you know any other woman. Or to let him know under no circumstances to come to my house uninvited within it, nefarious intentions. So I said to him: I said yes, to that is where I live and you live at I name his house number and history that the don't give me that way. And flying hey. You know, you know where I live. I know where you live. If you can visit me I'm gonna come visit. You
So let me show you know: we're not confine others visit into this motel room he smiled he nodded his head. But he understood and I did not find out that day it was several months down the road that I've been presumptuous I had no reason to fear Mr Kelly come into my house to do anything stupid. What had happened was one This plan members lived right down the road from me. I didn't know that Mr Kerr we'll have to travel down my my street to get into that referred where this plan never lived. He simply recognising name illustrate that was it pure comment, so he wasn't trying to threaten no not at all, not at all so, At a day that same plan member is a federal prison, he will be there for a long time. He would later commit a crime which led him, the federal penitentiary. So anyway,
We got on with his interview and within ten minutes. Mr Kallas, let me know, why you hate people like me, black people Are inferior wheel the crime We were criminals. That is why There are more bullets in prison than whites. Now, that's a half truth. There are indeed more blood. In prison. The white people is not be as we approach the crime, like you said, is because, an equity and judicial system where whites in this, predicament either. Get the same jail time or don't go to jail or whatever anyway, so I'm a criminal. I also said that black people and lazy we don't want to work while we prefer scan the government welfare system, we're looking for handouts and freebies and all that where white people, you know www: they they work etc.
And also this book called the Bell curve had just recently come out. And ass Mary. You know the one now controversial, but exactly so your head. He jumped on that as it was it is a known fact. You know say the world's biggest authorities they are even is right when say that but it will have smaller brains than white people and that's why they're iq is not as high. So, yes, the bigger the brain, the more intelligent you are so now. I'm sitting there listen to this guy. Tell me that I'm a criminal and I'm lazy and on welfare and my brain. The smaller than his. What are you saying was indeed offensive, but here to demonstrate me most other people. I did not take offence to it I did events do it. Why should I be offended by some
body. Who knows nothing about me only met me two minutes ago he sees the color my skin, this assessment. So why should I take offence to somebody who selling why I roll out with it? Where did you develop this kind clarity? of this clarity to this not be offended by that, because it didn't make sense what he was saying. In saying disparaging things about everyone that looks anything like you just right off the cuff freely right in front of you. You develop this clarity to this? Not be offended by that because it didn't make it what he was saying, of course, so I you now have a happy event. As somebody who's, whose all twisted right now who'd, who obviously doesn't have the the Foresight to see that he is wrong, I want to learn more about this, which is coming from and so now see. That's what you said a conversation and then
people getting to combat. Yes, you know, and then it goes nowhere. I will not offend advisory role on with it and then, when he finished you Know- and he was he was proud of him. Me why the stance you know what? Mr Kelly, I mean Mr up with you, I don't have a criminal record, I've never been our welfare I've. Measured my brain, but I'm sure to same sex, anybody else's whatever go on well, every now and then the other would run out tape right I reached out and my bad and pull out afresh, Cosette or Music upon the table. Mr Davis, Bible says: reach down, pull at the Bible I reached down like this, the Bible or the Cosette, but the bag. The reach up onto his hip right now. That's that was cool. I got that that's his job. His job is to protect
does boss. He has no idea within my bag that'll distracting, though, isn't it yeah, but you know I realized. These people are afraid of me right away. So I right to be cops at them, but you know right now. You know when or when Oh, you know he's doing his job and just when will you but well you may get you it'll get pulled over as much right by the cuts that night Day, right now, You know when or not when you get pulled over dinner and a cup tells you to get you licence or whatever you isn't it. As in the glove bugs and you reach. Gets a little more tight around his head. He out he's protecting himself so that, up with doing that, I got that so alarm. You just get happening and after a while he realized it was no threaten the bag, and I went.
The bad moroccan move. He was relaxed. Just over an hour into this interview. There was a sudden, a very quick I'm in less than a second noise in the room watched that that it. And it happened so fast. I don't know where the my ear, the sermon what it was. I just out of the blue, getting closer than you- and I are right now tables smaller to Mr Kelly. And the night hot. What was here goes right there, I flew about it. My chair hit the table because my ear could not discern with the noise? Was I perceived it to be an ominous threatening noise and I knew I knew for a fact that Mr Kelly had made this noise. Where did it come from what we make it?
and how do I know that he made it? I knew that because I didn't make it so No, if you, if you don't want to that responsibility or you know, you're not responsible. What do you do? you assign, blame and so I flew about him. I had to table and. My mind was racing. What did I just do what you had to say because, Mr Kelly to go off, and make some threatening noise. You know I instantly put everything perspective: we're enemies he's ahead of the clan, I'm a black eye. And now you know, and then I heard that former glasses with in my head Darrow do not food Roger Kelly, he will kill you. So I don't want to die in their split second, have gone into our survival mode. And will you fear for your life? That's what you do. What was the noise on? What are you saying
that was it and because it was unexplored, that was so short. I couldn't discern it in a I wanted to intercept, protect mode. And accurate hit the table. Well, when you fear for your life has. As you know, you go into survival mode and it's survival mode. You know you're only you can only do like one. Four things, some people they just pass out. They faint because the fear is so great that brain cannot process it and it shuts down and they pass out other people that their money contract, they get tents and they can't move and you can be John them kick in them, and they want to be deferred. In the blows there are restricted. That's got paralysis by fear that you, too afraid to move. The third thing people would do is disturbing.
The way from whatever the fear is, and that is the best option with some scared you that bed take off separate yourself as quickly as you can from that fear was much distance twin. You and feared again and that would have been my choice- had been an option but was an option for me because you cannot outrun abode a in a motel room right so was not armed. My secretary it was not armed beyond, Listen, who I know for sure was armed was a night off you, see his right there and I didn't know if, Mr Kelly, weapon up under his suit jacket or not all I knew was. I don't want to die today. So I chose the fourth option, which was to do a pre emptive strike. You get them before get you so when I thought of my chair, I was I dive across the table grab Mr Kelly grab a night off. As land them down to the ground and take away the night hops gun. Well, no
It was gonna happen back with. We must, I think, pretty fast, some as a little too fast, but I'm going hit the table. I'm looking right into his eyes for to figure out equity, Do I don't say one word this guy, but my and locked with his eyes with that guy, see right through him I let my eyes do the talking. He could hear my eyes I was shouting at him saying: what did you just do, while his eyes had fixated on my eyes. He didn't say a word either I read his eyes his as its enemy. What did you just do and then I thought- had his hand on his gun, but both with like what either when are you I'll just do Mary, sitting to my left on top of the dresser we're chairs ass? She realized what had happened ass. She began. Explaining to us when it happened again, the
he's in the ice bucket had begun to melt Hodges and the Cannes shifted down the ice. That was that, was it TAT S all attention was so thick Yo Yo the ice in the bucket wasn't just like a normal over. There is ice in the buggy right now. Noise eulogist on edge absolutely absolutely just fallen on the ice. How long you been talking for an hour, yeah yeah in another, but now they ve been sitting there before. Mr Kelly can imagine and we have we forgotten about it. I offer him a drink when I first got there. And is it now but can I get you a zoo, you're you're talking to him for an hour in that our is attention and detentions not being alleviated at all? Here splaining everything to you is Tell you is theories, you're, being very calm and just letting him speak you, but you are, still so on edge just being across from this guy that that sound right, came out of nowhere. You know, It came out of nowhere.
And I mean, you know that detention had had had the ethics. It all back our stuff as I'm goin to the hour, but I think you know we each were aware. This is not a normal situation there in a black China Clan leader, so you eat. Joint was still a little wary of the other candidates We were mutually respectful, we'll get so then it happened again. We began laughing, We began laughing all of us at how ignorant we had all been I won't say that this was a learning moment, but it was teaching moment and the learning will come later. The the what what what was taught was this all because some foreign, an under
score, Highlight circled the word foreign entity of which we were ignorant that being the bucket device cans of soda. It into our little zone viii- the noise that it made. We became fearful and accusatory of each other, So the lesson taught is ignorance breeds fear, since we don't understand. If you do not keep that fear in check They fear in turn, will escalate and breed hatred. Because we hate those things that frighten us. If you dont check that hatred, it in turn will escalate and breed structure, we want to destroy those things that we ate. Why? Because they frighten us, but guess what there may have been harmless and we'll just ignorant, and we saw
The whole chain unravel to almost completion. The last component being destruction stopped short of that. Had I passed across the table and hurt one of them or had the night hop drawn his gun shot. One of us. You know that that would mean the destruction Fourthly, that did not happen. We did see that that whole chain unravel to completion three years ago, on August twelve, two thousand and seventeen Charlottesville Virginia, which is that two hours from my house on August worked with other seventeen shorter suffrage. You there was a lot of ignorance and Charlottesville, there were a lot of fear and Charlottesville there was a lot of hatred and Charlottesville What did it culminate in a common? The industry action when on white supremacist got inside his vehicle
Andrew full force into a crowd of counter protesters trend to murder them. He succeeded and injuring twenty and and murdering a young lady name, Heather higher, so that that whole Jane is there? If you want to solve this problem of racism, we need to stop focusing on the symptoms. Dont worry about the fear. Dont worry about the hatred, those symptoms I put. Bandit on cancer. You gotta go down to the bottom and treated at its source. This First of all, this is ignorance. Ignorance can be cured. The cure for ignorance is called education, so you fix the ignorance, there's nothing to fear, but you feel you don't know when you feel the eight. You know something to fear the fear
then there's nothin date. If there's something to hate, there's nothing to destroy. So we need to focus on the ignorance and we address it with exposure and education, and conversation, we ve been way too much time in this country. Talking about the other person talking at the other person talking pass the other person. Why don't you spend a lot of time talking with the other person? So I said here we carried out the conversation had a good time, If nobody unheard, obey laughed and I thank them- shook their hands ever taught me to keep in touch I bet you can guess miss, but I did you know, I call them say: hey man, I'm putting you county come and see me How did you ever talk that day? Maybe no two and a half hours that did at the
and after the ice that everything sort o loosen up. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, so the laughter and then did the conversation loosen. Then becomes a gem. Listen then No, it wasn't like you know. We will we all hugging, but did you offer any counter to the things he was saying you, Charles Murray, stuff, absolutely absolutely responded. Well yeah. I don't know about that. I know you know that, don't you guys, R, r, R r a doctor is undoubtedly also here. He looks to authority, of course, of course, If you find a thirty, show me where. So I feel that now these? if you know that that fits that fits your narrative, so like throwing information here so, for example, he did bring up The Bible preachers, Rachel separation, from the Bible ass. It show me where so
I feel that nobody that chapter and verse what things in the villages on what paraphrase he pointed is worse, and I read it s, estimate of effect of a lamp should not lay with the wolf the ice. Once live up to what they have to do. So I said What? What does that mean? Mr Kelly This is what makes the tuna responses should not later gather as a hold on. I said: blacks and whites are not due to the species. We are the same species to different colors in a whit would ever species so you're. Here he takes what he wants and was it diffidence Ok, so he had to say I thanked him. I began calling him he got to my gives he burned than I thought I'd I'd! Invite him down to my house.
He came to my house what the night off. Not with sit on my couch nets to him. So let us not get bored right and put out his gun. World. It raises serious and but little five I felt I felt very comfortable with with them after time- and so there that point, I would begin inviting over some of my black friends, so a jewish friends? So my other- My friends did you like. Let them know in advance Sunday, sometimes not so does they say when they come over this grand wizard night HAWK well or a dragon, as you drag inner was who used to a dragon at that point? Ok! Ok! and I say, freak out, ban. Oh my god, my ban, you know we have a ban, vans or the adoption of my house. Then we'll all right, the gig together, so she was far away
as soon as I do. I want to stop as some plan rally on my way. So I guess they dare. I say what I just meet you there. Another ride with cries, though, see this became a full time here, Jack they did. It did what how much, how quickly get it escalate. So it went from this you. You obviously had some were compelled almost obsessed to meet this guy and get to the bottom of this thing that have been bothering you, since you are young result, does my relationship with him was really growth. It was turning into a friendship I mean alive, I genuinely like this guy and I could see, I'm beginning to like me a lot I didn't like its ideology, but He met the humanity in him and he was soon the same thing in me. We both want the same things
and I began interviewing about other clam people from different areas of noise down South midwives, etc. Some would talk to me. Some would not talk to me. Some wanted me. I went around the whole gamut, and I put it all in my book now I would say in fourteen over two years, can out of my house or we gotta have lunch dinner together, you and but your nose two years by the other two years he was coming to my house by himself. He trusted me that much no night, you drive on downright and Hum by the end of two years he had not. Invited me to his house and now, after two years he got promoted, From from our grand Dragon State leader, imperial wizard national leader at that point here: get invited me to his house Why now he was the man in charge right, so I go to his house,
I would see you at school waiting his clan meetings have adapted to house. Well, call it a room certainly without plan alter, and chairs a clan. Alter, look like is the table, but has a plan flag across it? Has it been read so with Whitecross blood drop, and they have a candles. Things like that and an out and across the cross has some you the candles on it, so that the flame or or light bulbs well anyway, and at a sword, then, across the table at Atlantic Pitchers Dixon, notes, and then he began. Invited me to clan rallies. Oh yeah yeah I gotta these clan rallies and that have this big wooden cross The wooden crosses wrapped in burlap. The bird app has been soaked. Were they call clan cologne, which is actually diesel, fuel, kerosene and
the clansmen, clansmen or all in their robes and hoods, and they have to have his torches, the torches lit and they walk and us and a big wide circle around this cross, which is in the centre and am then either the impudent well wizard or that ran dragon? Well, will will shout plasma halt and then I'll stop in place pleasant faced across all turnin faced in the inner circle and then he'll say for my God and they already for my God and bow for my race for my race, for my country, for my country, for my plan for my plan, white power, white power, clansmen approach, the cross and they all close in another already at the base of the Cross plasma light, the cross dropped the torches at the foot of the cross, and whoosh. This thing is a flame and they stand there and admire this burning grass, and then they give some speed from the podium, and then they have hot dogs.
Hamburgers and rally is over now and I'm watching this, I'm taking pictures taking notes and did it feel to be their watch in all this. Definition different. But you know I never do speck pretty much all his books yeah so in army. I know that's what they do at grandma burn crosses now presently that I learned their two times two occasions about which they set the cross of flame as they put it. They have across burning across lighting the difference being across burning it's when they take a five or ten for cross reference. Burlap, silken, something kerosene and and put it in your lawn, because your interracial couple, you're gay, your jewish, white neighbourhood. Whatever the deal is, that is meant as as Immigration is a warning we nobody? You are Susan Disease move out. If you don't,
some women business notes in a bomb, your house or something okay, what they do that that's called a cross burning right across lighting is what they do: love a thirty or twenty or thirty foot cross at a ceremony and a parade around and give her. Sure that's got across lighting, that's what you want to. I would, of course, like how often they do those things as often as they want and several times a year, and what are they talk about and when they have meaning the future the White race and what they want? an end with the constitution given to use them as the white. There's land land was built by white people, the classes was signed by white by man? This is their country, immigration, whatever the issues are that the browning of America's. It was a big topic or white genocide. Same thing by genocide, mean the races the smaller through message nation. So
That is a topic that that they cover is. If it's pretty, is pretty interesting but check. This out, though, Our relationship will grow and grow. And eventually, Mr Kelly Minos business. Here we got there, he he began. He began robs sneak right in he began the believing That's right there in the photo with you right there, and his grand dragon robe. This is his imperial wizard road were right here. And he gave his robe gimme Have you no longer believe in what it stands for, wow how many years there is high years it take before you Just by being around us condemn for him, we like around
maybe he doesn't have seven six. Have seven no sums on this matter much matter a year, two years, and so what did you do? this talk is that as the hoodie Jesus you see, this is this support. Is and the lower portion here was carbon. The mask members of one anonymity. They don't want you to know they are. They were this message detached by three snaps or velcro? Remove it they don't care and the faces exposed, as you saw that pitcher. So what? What is it? Like? You said you guys. Closer you said you became more more friends, you sort of visiting at each other and did it ever say, I'm starting to think that bullshit yeah how did he say he called me up one day later, We got our talk to you about it: ok, you want to meet for dinner, such so Drood, Frederick and Madame
thanks everyday, so you know I'm quitting the plan, I'm leaving it and he's a top dog dog. You gave it all up and here's the thing he did a smart thing. You did a good thing, he didn't hand it down. He shut it down yeah, you know: did he convinced the other people in the clan that whether they had a choice to do whatever they want to write a lot of them left a lot of them left as well? Then there were those who try to keep it going, but you know, but fate did he give you an example new speaking to them. They they knew why he did it you see some hate. Maybe everything is an hate mail from from some of our members anonymously the same gonna hate mail that went on would send out to people monogamous would not come back to him. You know you, bed with Dental Davis, you're a nigger lover, all that kind of stuff on signed
the same stuff that he would put out other people, s he began seeing himself in the mirror so that that was very crucial and Anna, I have repeated this process many times with different people. Do what it? What is the process? Do we like you're talking about like the Charles Mary stuff, the bell curves of how do you refute that? What are you saying to him? I'm sent him, look mister, that doesn't one very well. You know I'm I'm, I'm not do it that way. So I refute it. Mr marries, an end is his partner, which does wrote the book. Are there there and- and I worked- and I want approved at my car- is better than a shiver? Lay I want to find a shabbily that isn't that that doesn't run very well. You know I'm with that way. So I,
viewed it MR marries at and his his partner, which does wrote the book. Ah, ah they're they're, they're, documentation and Anna S E day. They they go, buy things that they can see and understand. I will give you an example of something that that as well, the help you understand the Cyclops was riding around in my car one day with me, he's sitting in my passenger seat right, we're driving I'm DR long summer. We got on the topic of of black crime. He made a statement he said. Well, You know- and we all know this- that again that they authority say that that black people have a gene in them. That makes them violent and I'd heard it before. My the clan people as one of the narratives and you know the while black savage clothing and doesn't what're you talking about
This is what whose term of the drive buys and car jacking societies. He was referring to solve these Washington DC, which is predominantly black area, so might live there for doubly black very high crime written ass. It ok, it's black people, but that's what lives there as it is still not a crime in Bangalore main. Why people, because that's what lives there. I said you know you're, not even considering the demographics is that none of you will have it. Jeanne. Above so you know national shut me down and am I said, look is here as it look. On his black does anybody you know, I said I have never done a drive by never gonna car jacking. How do you explain that this man not wait. One. Second, he answered me like that. He said your genius latent hasn't come out yet
how you argue as somebody who's that far Oh right, bite into that you on it right? So I'm dumbfounded and our speechless he's not here also Mutton Z, to say so. I thought about it, and I said you know they say a uses, his authority as they say that all white people have a gene that makes them a serial killer. Is that how do you feel that it made me three black serial killers. He couldn't do it as a here. I'm gonna give you one. I mean one for him ass a here just just, namely to he couldn't do it. I said Charles men, Jeffrey Dahmer Henry Lucas, John Wayne, Gacy Albert Desalvo, the Boston, Strangler TED Bundy, US data Berkowitz on asylum at game, had a little again right again
is creating achieves a skin people. Ok, I said son. There are white and you're a serial killer he's, there would be no. I've never killed anybody. So you'd they too have come out yet those with stupid I said, you're rag. It is stupid, I said, but has no more of me to say that about you and what you said about me and he got very quiet, but you could almost see it. Joe, is setting and he's thinking about it, and then he changed the subject, but within four or five months he left the claim Based on that conversation, why? At his robe with it, for me, for this robot forgot, why He came to engage the role. We said that aviation with nor for offers. You said he continued his robe he's. He call me
and not yet met in that area, and yet- and I see what you want to get together, I got together with them and we want to go. The courthouse for something I ve been some have trouble with a bit of southern border. So I gave my right over there and he told me he was. He was not with the clan. You know and he thought a lot about what I said and I'm I said what you going to do with your stuff- sit trash it. I said, I said no, don't trash it. I said give it to me. Is it you want. We want my robe and all my classes, and I said yeah. He was why why would you want that? I didn't know why pursuing tore me just take it there just take. It I said I don't know I'm what do the bus yadda yadda do want it, so we went back to his apartment now. I've never been in. Part of that met him outside outside in the driveway, whatever a parking lot: and data come on in and out
I'm working up the stairs with them to the apartment, nothing I'm not getting set up. But I walked on in and its fiance was sitting on the couch plans. Woman I've seen it before and I said, I thought, with early, went down the hall to his room and came back with it. We came back, he had happy trash bag, went back there again and came back with the stress by loaded up had his robe is heard. The clan belt buckle down clamour upon the earlier than planned title of all kinds of stuff man and his certificate of membership can stuff and ban gave it to me. And I said of it that you know I didn't know why. I wonder it by I knew I should have it offers
is history? Okay and you don't destroy history, the good, the bad, the ugly in the shameful is still american history and the KKK I've said it before it is as american as baseball apple pie and Chevrolet, and it's a stressful part of our history. What is our history nonetheless? Now I know what I'm doing stuff. I got my fibre three, I'm going. I'm gonna have a museum, Wendy Brothers. Why? What's a five or one c, three major catches and taking Kay Conversion Museum, yeah pictures of you, what the deuce right next to the road and each other not me most of them most of them. I do. And so I began collecting all this kind of stuff like this. Is what you should listen. This is a grand dragon robe, Green is the sign for the grand dragon. And the girl.
Looking fettered fledge, lamb patches, whose is that who gave you this guy Bob White Robert White right in what used to be the grand, regular Marilyn for another plan group, a rival to Roger Kelly's group. When I, when I first heard above white Ozma, ratings. And he I heard all I heard about when the news he had been busted arrested and I put in jail african aspiring to bomb a synagogue in Baltimore Liberty, wrote, deliberate, arose, a synagogue and he was convicted. He went to prison for four years. Is it before she runs both asked? I remember him and then he got out. Every during his time continued wanted the clan. Doesn't
years later, he got busted again assault with intent to murder, to blackmail with a shotgun now understand something as a plan later you don't make. Any money would not allow monsieur embezzling life, and it is about people do that as causally splinter groups If you're a leader like a wizard dragon, you might get a small stipend out of the dews, but not enough to pay your went about fooling your table, so you have read with job Yo Cyclops Wizard Dragon, whatever I just titles. My boys got leader yet have a regular job to pay your written mortgage this man's regular job. When he doing all this nonsense, bombing places and Stuff Baltimore
any police officer. This is his police officer, uniform, ok yeah. He was not an undercover cop in the clan gathering intelligence, whose bonafide clansmen on the Baltimore City Police force and their more their more again, but he went on this. Guy was vehemently vision, and ass, a medic and races and very, very violent, but he went on to become one of my best friends and on You gave me his gland robe Jimmy's police unit, No, I don't I'm election all over the country and stuff T quit the police force. He was forced to quit the police force or be fired. The police force bottomless zebra, with an even just last year? They they had a consent degree from the Department of Justice against them they are very racists and very corrupt,
we do, as they would turn a blind eye to the clansmen on the force, because you know as a police officer you're not allowed to block any subversive groups a blind eye as long ago I would not bring unwarranted attention due to the department. I just keep people stuff. You know whatever well, you're hurting the getting bus. Therefore, for planning about mere synagogues and fired the shots and how the cost of a black people so they re not again. You know you better retired or we put off the force you? U causing us too much publicity. This is before he left the clan yeah. So what did he do after you did that Well, get another job is yet another job. He, Vietnam dealing homing pigeons, Do. People have taken
this way to transmit information. It's perfect for summers in something like the clan, but you have to work, and we are all tell you something, though, not all of them that pregnant most of them, but some the of the heart is working people that I've ever seen in my life had been in the plan and I'm serious work on me. Wharton due to make a living and an us what other families is there? A universal factor like when you talk about how they got involved the new is the neighbourhood. Is it people they knew they are driven family. Well, let me give you an example of why people joined the plan for different reasons. Some it is. My grandfather was in the clan, my daddy wasn't it and so I am in the land and like it- doesn't mean the plan- is a family tradition right passed down. And when you are
with somebody with with that kind of tied in a generation? a a little longer for them to come out, because it is hard to break family tradition right. Another is wider, join you take a depressed town like coal mining in West Virginia or scrapped. Those is that were people who are not races, they were their hard workers. They did call, all their lives, grandfather, ductile, founded on how you don't go? They called after high school you know, if I had one of those people, a vacuum, cleaner, in this rug: they were nodded, albinos digging coal and they're happy, they are making their page at their feet. Their family pay the rent, whatever you're not concerned about people's collar they're happy, but then the company he gets greedy and decides how
No. What we can save money make a lot more money. If we lay off our our employees and hire some of these are these immigrants. Whether legal or illegal Brazil work for for less than half of repaying our people right, and so they lay off these people and how it is you who just came over to the country. Looking for work and they pay the MR nothing. So now these white people- whenever racist or out of a job, the bankers I have worked with us on the trailer or their house or whatever the camp of food on the table. The planned sees these things and the clan will come into a depressed down like that and hold a rally. The black, sadly, and double asap the Jews. Adsl, noble stands up for the white man, but the plan come join. Us we'll get your job back. You know you that that was your job, your job, not Gama yard but you're gone announced
It's a nigger. Some speaks got your job. What why is that come join us, so these but said whenever rages they began thinking. You know They're right, my job is still there and I'm that job twenty five years and I got laid off for no reason. Somewhere doing my job. So what I have to lose human application, they sign up so they're, like you know who wish to enter into this group they may be a little easier to come out. You know you talk with them then a third reason why people join If somebody relocate to a town It is very clan. Oriented lotta people are currently live their stuff. If you want Do business in that town? You got assimilate. You join the local culture. Local chambers of commerce and the local KKK, those of different reasons why people were would join and
building again depend upon how strong the tie eyes are of why they join can determine the year the long there there longevity or their or there- hold on what is the one, Turkey, the longest crack La Beale, Isoud I never set out to convert anybody. And even though, in the media, It will say black musicians inverse too. Landsmen or axiomatically members I didn't convert, anybody unable convert one of them. I was I say that I am the impetus for over two hundred leaving the plan yeah. I know that for fat and people told me tat I might have because of you things like that, but I did not convert them. They converted, selves, I gave them reason to think about their direction in life and they thought about it. I thought you know, I need a better path and this is the way to go.
Because what would happen would be. This is like in a win win you when you believe in something somebody will just believe that are difficult issues. Is that person saying it? light? Like you know, we have a permanent president, where no matter what he says, something we're gonna believe and others are like disbelieve right and then go for any president. Really, if you're a big fan, no matter what you do You say you have a base want, believe you? So I would tell these people, when I saw fought with what they were saying in their ideology, as it were limited you why? I think this is incorrect and lay out the fact for them and then they now that demand. I can see right then, and there when they got home that check it out,
round their head, they began thinking. You know. Darrell does have a point, but his black but his black, but he does have a point. But his black. So even though they know it's true, they don't want to with a black so that that cognitive dissonance thing going on, so they did That was an internal struggle and they had. They get their own mind you. I. Continue living a lie. What what do I turn, life around and lived the true, let's all dangerous you're. Very articulate guy and I'm sure a lot of these people, not very educated, so the continued exposure to you is probably confusing to them as well as yours. Oh good for me senses and speaking com, and you know the way its flow smoothly out of your mouth. You have these wonderful, wonderful, grow. As for the english language, I think this guy might be smarter than that, but that help
But let me say something though dont be fooled, we think of of clam people say we are your people in general, because most of our exposure to it is isn't it Springer, show hurrah where their throats stereotypes? Third grade drop out anything caricature here and the type that you're that they would bring on the show, for whatever reason. Nope any of those types. Trust me there, though stereotypes do exist, but. They can go anywhere from third grade drop out the way to president of the United States President warring G Harding was sworn into the two clips clan in the green room of the White House, what you say whatever year. He was president so, as my whole sixty five, where we sixty five nineteen twenty is right: where was he with the tea?
don't don't what it was President Harry Truman, before Truman became president. He was a man the clan for short, that's right, Harry Truman who an integrated the army are right wow you join for short time. He didn't like it. He got out Supreme Court Justice, Hugo Black. He wore black was in the plan at the time he was appointed to the Supreme Court. He had them. Leave the cuckolds clan to sit on this on Supreme Court as a justice more and more recently Senator Robert Bird from West Virginia just died for years ago. He was Amendment no nineteen forties here they grant Legal Cleveland recruiter grandma state, so he was recruiter for the state of of West Virginia Grant Legal I didn't, and they are later renounced and stuff yeah. So
ok, educational backgrounds, particularly a long time ago, yeah yeah, I mean it was considered. The an honourable white man, society, the time. You know they allow women the clan and they one is on, the seller is now they allow women, but women. Still a male chauvinism organization, so women are making progress in the cloud, but but but They cannot hold the highest offices that be a grand dragon or dragonettes. When did you start on this week? I started in meeting them and I guess researching them distant when When, when did you start meeting them ones? You when you have this meeting after the first the first friendly meaning that I had with the clan was that in the bar that wouldn't be eighty three, but so long. First encounter with the clansmen, was at the
before, and I didn't know he's a class when I beat him up so this, but the bar things in Asia, I was wondering if it was pre or post the Dave Chapelle bit red tat I was twenty is obeyed. Ask me an odious. Did you see that yet Clayton Bixby? What it was you know that I think it's hilarious lemme, tell you something, hilarious day. Chapelle he's a kind of genius is great. And perhaps, if I'd never done what I've done I find the latter humour in it. The arm I tell you what he's ever to a clan rally. I have I've been plenty of them, though things are not funny, they are not funny again. They are a pressure cooker waiting to go off that that was not really released explode and we saw that the Charlottesville. Will you know that he
His joke was how ridiculous it, what the absolutely than another guy I'm about in mind I voted in his black right is. Actually I understand we saved from your perspective. It's not funny yeah yeah yeah. I mean if you meant everything, but but you know we shouldn't take. Take racism we need taken more seriously than we do and what are you some in our country, I'm ok, we're headed to understand our country can only become one of two things. It can become number one that which we stand up, I'm sorry that which we sit back and let it become or number to that which we stay and make it become so we are charged with this question
Do I want to sit better, see what my country becomes or do I want to stand up and make my country become what I want to see and I have chosen actors in the latter. I don't like the direction is going well. You ve chosen a very noble words, not just the latter, but a very noble path mean what you ve done is pretty on the amount of time and energy that is required for you to get close to these guys. In fact, you could be doing. A lot of things are a success when musician. Yet I'm sure you have friends, I'm sure you're busy, but you chose to spend an extraordinary amount of time pursuing. I would much rather beyond stage playing music and making people happy unpleasant job and dance and carry on along then them attending when rallies, but I find it more and more necessary because we have dropped the ball. The topic but you and I are discussing right now- twenty three, years ago would have been taboo talkin about on radio or whatever people in Europe we would not want to discuss it
and I wonder whether this cuban closet you're good. To say that a mine denial and and deny it does not make it go away. If you can't see it is always there so, now where we were forced to address it, but let me tell you is going which, what is what it would do not talk about and don't understand what. First of all less, less define what it is back in the day. There was only one group, the coop lots clan. They were the first and the largest gang. If you will of races, At one point in time they had four million members around three big gang Mozart, bedmaking twenties and into the earth thirty, so many people, even in a man, in the nineteen twenty more than that left more than the letter, but I mean how many it wasn't. Even one hundred million know. India have bet it's power about eighty ninety million in Africa because of those four million, that's an extraordinary number and the majority of them were in Indiana
India and the earlier hundred ten hundred and ten million well and how many Fort William had fallen crazier, so it's basically somewhere in the neighbourhood of four percent of the entire population of the country, was in a fucking client. Now that time it was called white supremacy because that's what they believe in. Our country wouldn't enjoyed, whispering didn't call it the clan Yale, the plan, but the ideology was Galway, supremacy, and a lot of is to start in eighteen sixty five, a lot of since we know lynchings bombings and it will be on vehicles without stuff began happening and they became a lot of baggage with the term white supremacy where a
people do not like black people within that, like jewish people. They did not want to participate in this. In writing in Ireland, murder and other stuff either for for moral reasons or legal reasons. Whatever the membership began dwindling, who began dropping out right. It was too to violent for them. This is why supremacy were became, unpalatable and became negative. So when the membership decreased, they had a wee brand, so they say they changed it from white supremacy, don't white separatism, I'm a white separatist, I don't hate black people or jewish people. I just love my own blog, Jews should be able to have their own schools their own neighborhoods? Around churches thereon workplaces we should not have ours that we will have the mix
oh yeah yeah. I might that idea. Finally, up I'm a white separatist should begin increasing and, of course, you know the more people have. Somebody will start acting up so There was a violence so now the term. Why supremacy also become unpalatable will be and dropping out. So many and went down again and then had already brand nets, they call themselves white nationals or white nationalists now. What is a nationalist, a nest, someone who lives in a country like the patriot you, a nationalist, I'm, a nationalist. Why do we have to say white nationalist. Why do we just seven am right, white nationalist are so the, I love my country and white signed me up here comes the violence once again, the replanting and now the economy, all right, you simply trade, but they say
rose by any other name is what still arose So you got. What have you want to call? It is still white supremacy. Do you think TAT Charlotte? was a wake up, call Charlottesville excuse clear, suffer even as for me, because I knew that it still existed. But I didn't think you'd would show themselves publicly like that in the age of the internet walked down, the street would take torches. Let me tell you something limit unless it is ok, The valley there was called unite the right rally. I know the guy you put it on. I know all the speakers there and of them personally What was your understanding? as to why there were having this big unite the right rally. I we do that. Finally, I didn't know why they were doing it. I just had probably heard it on the news or something like that went on and then, when I saw the K K K, showing
those guys, the Charlottesville guys the torches were. Those taking care was at another white supremacy. We are all of the above. They had different different, whose unite the right order right wing groups came, right leg of the south, the Cuckolds LAN National Socialist Movement, different It is only in a moment. The national social level do not exactly an israeli yeah. Ok, they were there to now in the media they did. They gave a reason as to why why where they they will. They protest it. What was their reasons for for being there and Charlottesville? Will idea of what the media put out was? They occur, together to protest, the removal of the confederate statues, You gotta remember: there were tearing down a statue. Rain had a conversation with somebody about it,
though? Statues most of them were very cheaply made in hunting the subsidies hook up during the civil rights right. Exactly buys yes, ok, so that was not the reason why they had the rally, that's it. The media said: ok, Any time. The reason why. They had this rally there. Yes, there was something Blue went there to legitimately oppose the removal of those statutes. Rybody lions, Stonewall, Jackson, whoever else, but the majority people came there were there to start the if the initial steps of the Race WAR ass right, the race WAR that the white supremacist have been predicting, I've been preparing for or a race war, just like roof was to the rates whether he said. We wonder that black georgian conduct the place pursuant to the dying shot, all those people and I
So he said the race WAR here, Here was a time you want occupy a piece of public property, you. Wanna have a rally demonstration or If you want to set up a limited hotdog stand if zombie on public property, you must have a permit. You got under the city in application state. Your name state your purpose you can not very well say on the application. I want to start a race war. You will not get the permit. So you you provide some cause. I legitimate excuse. My great great. Rate ass. If his father in the confederacy that's my heritage, I don't want to mess with it. Ok, let's legitimate sign off here's your private sir and now you can occupy that corner of twelve and main from twelve noon before the m whatever so that they went through the procedure that they get? They legally got a permit to have their say.
The right rally under false pretences? Now two things anybody who knows. American history knows that they were also blacks and also Jews, who fought in the confederacy. The black slaves, had to fight for their slaveowners in this there were a number of jewish slaveowners there, want to give up their free labour. So blacks, Jews and whites fought together and the confederacy against blacks, whites and Jews in the union. My great great great ancestors were slaves who also fought in the confederacy. I have access for in the confederacy at my parents, are from Virginia Roanoke Salem? I was born in Chicago
that's what my dad was working at the time but to Virginia is is was the seat of the confederacy. So there are black people today, and some jewish people who honour the confederacy. They dont condone slavery, but they honour the confederates. Because of their great great ancestors. They honour in house are active in the area where they have confederate virus has taken place, mostly in the South Black people have confirmed absolute looking up you, you find them all that you find them here and now they're, not condone slavery, this honouring the confederacy goes there this weekend and died in it or whatever I offer my ancestors However, I dont want the confederacy me personally. If somebody
Let's just why do that? That's your business, I dont do it so and ironically, ironically, this is a historical fact, the Confederate Army, was integrated. The union army was segregated, wouldn't Dominguez, that's so here you know we are where we are fighting to free slaves, and the federal army has blacks and Jews Anna and wise, together, the union segregated terrorism makes sense, but it does because it's also ridiculous. Yes, what humans are exactly exactly you got. It irrationality so ok. Now, if. If blacks and Jews and whites could fight together, hundred and fifty years ago. Why can't they march together and two thousand seventeen
Wouldn't it makes more sense and give more credibility to your cause if your cause was truly to preserve those statues, why not invite Descendants like yourselves of blacks and Jews to march with you in Charlottesville and say: hey, that's my heritage to leave it alone Would that not add more credibility at certainly web? What are the numbers mean? Can you get me if you only got five or ten right- ok, that's still with lend some credibility, but instead so Your claim- and this is the heritage instead, of inviting including blacks and Jews. They excluded them. And to those seventeen so of blacks and Jews wanted a march. They would not let them here. Is that women there are another that there were many who did or did you stated that is now why people this is United
you are unite the right. Ok, you have white wine premises, organizations so stated, including blacks and Jews heritage anybody in the heritage. You got what you wanted serve the confederacy. Well guess what they were black and confederacy? You know that this historical fact there were Jews in an instant The confederacy was simply a reflection of of of the south, again so Instead, it including the excluded them and they marched the University of Campus, with their ticket, tortures and the streets of shot you, and screaming anti semitic and racial epithets. What does that tell you? It tells you the opera. To us was not about heritage. It was about eight as an one number to know body and shouted swallow or anywhere else ever met their great great, great ancestors, who fought in the in the confederacy.
Those who were long dead and gone baiting sixty five, and if you, when you were born than right now, you tell me Ok, you know you, you can honour people, but you don't know a fine. But how do you honor your great great great ancestors? the confederacy and at the same time you dishonour the very ancestors who you do know. The very ones who raised you, your father's, your grandfather's if you're lucky enough, you may have met your great grandfather, these people. Many fathers of Charlottesville, many fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers lost their lives, fighting not the confederacy but fighting a war to and who they fighting a war to the Nazis. How do you tell me you and honour your great great great answer,
there's an you: gonna walk down the street Charlottesville side by side, what people went? Swastikas, We went to war against the Nazis, Why are you marching would not cease fire swastikas now now, but what we know is what did the Nazis have to do without it by the Nazis, had no heritage, Charlottesville Virginia, in fact the Nazis, and even in existence during an our civil war? It off not even born doing. I civil war. So what were they is too short, as will it wasn't about heritage. It was about eight. That's what the media failed to tell us, because it with them, you did was they want to city halters public record, this poor pull the permit and we owe their. They are too to protest statues until it verbatim report like that. Didn't do that.
I'm now was it a small percentage of em that were the ones that were marching with the torches and swastikas. Now they join into the entire group was the entire group all about hate? I would say that it was there. I was it. By ninety five percent people. There were about eight and the other was a few misguided people. There They are because they really thought there protecting their southern Herod right and they were lump damn with all his other people that use that as a ruse to sort of set up this hate, bright, hate, meaning to debt. Dat have a permanent. How many people went there for that thing,. I mean they were, there were more protesters. Of course as usual, we too should be I don't have the exact number myself, I'm out, I'm trot and give him a billiard. They they get skewed my decide. The police would tell you one number in the earth They were taken at a number, the dye, who is the young, the killer that ran those people over and James fields. That day
guy seem twenty years old, the epitome of a law saw they got sucked into horrible ideology is now very smart and that that must be a large percentage, what they pray the absolutely loss people and then how a coat shore- and they give you a meaning and a reason and heritage to defend and at us in a status right now, a bunch crazy names like Cyclops NA ha. You know- and I know Susan Bro, Susan Bro, there are other higher: the girl who was murdered and run run down budgets, fields that twenty year old boy through his life away, and it was premeditated whom he had set up on the internet before even going there and pray Hitler and so forth and so on in the visa You know that we have to be very. Much aware of, and what Why today,
You know I am on helping a an organization as an adviser at that putting on a festival of ideas this year. In June we ve already got a corner where an attempt to and several other people who have already committed doing this festival of ideas to outdo Attica, the internet, and there's is a new internet platform there on this Ford for over almost two years as Oda, two million members. Coal mines, mines like out your mind Yeah I've had the guy who created any bill, yeah, yeah, yeah, fantastic guy, that's glad he medical founder, but it put it This thing they brought me on as an adviser and when the promise festival. Bringing in some farmers now now,
The head of the of the innocent is a very good friend of mine and what does the innocent, a national socialist movement than not before then yeah you go and non lowly convert those guys as well or yeah. Yeah he's out now and he last year because of you will not. I was a contributor, but he saw the light and he's here good guy he's helping, to get others out. You have an amazing ability to forgive people that other folks would write off for life. Other people would think that those people are horrific, monsters that aren't worthy. Of of salvation, don't get me wrong. There are some of those people. There are some horrific monsters on all sides who who the summit whom will go to the grave being hateful violent and racist anti semitic. There is no change in them whatsoever, but I can tell you this: if somebody of that of that attitude or that belief there there
you're here on the spectrum adopted ends. If they women to sit down and have a conversation. No matter! extremely may be. There is the opportunity to plant a seed, But but the important thing is anybody can proceed, but the follow up this was important you have to nurture that see. You must water it. I saw it grows. As you know, When you hear you too, you have nothing in common, but if you spend five minutes with your worst enemy, you will find something. Common you'll find something in common. You begin nurturing those commonalities: yeah, ok and you and your your closing that guy, So now you about right here so Now you have formed a relationship you ve got from here to a relationship. And now you begin nurturing that relationship losing it in and when you get about it here the latter commonalities.
Now you ve made a friendship right and when you get there, the trivial things that you have, in contrast, such as the color of your skin or whether you go to a church, a Temple, a mosque or Senate, began to matter less and less could begin to see that I And not be honest, you know that Most important thing that you have in any endeavour is your credibility. Your credibility you only have one opportunity to make, as in this kind of thing, to make a good first impression you may you may have a second or third opportunity to tour to impress on which only have one opportunity to make a good first impression, and most people would judge you by their first impression of you. So when I would meet these people, I must try
his parents as I can be I'm honest. I don't want them to know where I stand, but I'm when to listen to them. I want to hear why I've seen enlighten me. Teach me why. I should believe that you believe and see things Learn from you know how to start the cars This national Socialist Movement Guy said that same way and what was a conversation like with or he believes he believed at the time in the area, Would you have Adolf Hitler in them? listen playing all over the country. You can bind met him together. I have been in it Just left last year and Had he been the commander, for twenty seven years. You have an amazing gift? The ability to slowly talk to these people and talk some sense into them, and
fact that you're willing to spend the time to do that. That is, we have to do that. We have to do that, I'm in which was too. We have over one. Self destruct the now I will say in origin I have been between travel with my parents as a child, in the foreign service and today the professional musician playing all over the country and around the world where you can buy those travelled together. I have been in a total of fifty seven different countries, also continents. So I've been it's something from you know, three years old or where do I beseech you to I've been expose all my life to a wide variety of religion. Culture, traditions, ethnicities from all over no matter how far have gone for the United States. No one hundred blood met. I can conclude at the end of the day we all human beings. We may practice different things have different cultures, different beliefs.
We all human beings and one of my very favorite quotes of all time is by Mark TWAIN and it's called the travel quote, and Mark TWAIN said, trot Will this fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow, mindedness and many of people needed solely on these accounts broad. Wholesome charitable views, men and things cannot be acquired. By vegetate in one little corner of the earth, all ones lifetime? that is so true, perhaps if had not done that travelling and been expelled. Two different things. What I've been doing this today? Maybe not, but I think the future of this are things like my bill outline is put together this minds dot com and people should check it out miles, dot, com or the chain. Dot, minds, dot, com
follow me there at Gerald. He was where is a platform for free speech, free speech and Will you come and express your ideas now be kicked off from the rest of Europe. Didn't we protocol unaware you're, not gonna, be threatened people and caused them? things like that you allow people with some of these toxic ideologies to come on it's pure mind, and then you engaged and we engage them and talk it can be about about politics. Have you wicked about technology. Whatever have you had locked talking to people just directly online is my perspective. Is that one of the things that this work? Is that you're very personal, and that you know here you you're, just you be around you, your very nice guy, to be around that probably help them. Closer to you and get to appreciate you. That's that's the I am talking about because you know, if like, for example,
I don't need somebody one time and that's it you know. Stripping themselves of their Robin hood? Ok, imitate repeat, visits, and then I let us in person as well say: yeah like talking to people online, very difficult to get through to people. It is, but you know what people have watched or soon things online about me have emailed me a lot tons of emails people. The clan people nazi movements or whatever what the hell you know. I appreciate what you said. You know, you know you you, This was affair shake. I wasn't expecting that from a black person or something like that, and it wasn't that our Cassiope somebody no in another, they fear and be transparent, and because of my credibility that affords me a second visit with them and a third if it. Unlike me very first impression, the meal was Gaza, ass, they're gonna get to meet next week. Now, I'm done with you tell my personal I've ever known or heard of that's been like radically converted just online was making
Phelps dunno, she sure I know about you- I never met Megan. I had conversations with Rachel who was crazy, is Rachel Mama, while the sisters, Megan sister yeah, maybe very. Very nice purse is hard to believe that she was ever locked into the Westboro Baptist church. Her husband, her now husband, actually converted her by talking to her on Twitter, Laval days, with the greatest things ever been accomplished onto it s, so do you do? participate and other social media platforms like Facebook. As to remedy that. Or do you just now mine's I'm not a focus on mine. I think mines has the best platform, again you and so is transparent. Don't you
two million members and growing, and you know facebooking. I will kick you offered certain things mindset and, as I do that I mean you know they won't allow you to threaten somebody. Does minds, have the same sort of algorithms directs things towards you that your interested in that could have a tape you beginning of zero facebook does that year and it turns out that most of what people are interested in is what upsets, yeah, yeah, not another, don't that operate like that! it is worth anybody to check out. You know, because people here frustrated, I'm getting off Facebook because I hit this arguing and you know you can come here and and talk to some listen, People have a hard time given together Thanksgiving because of our current public. Climate, where somebody you know voted for our current president? the family members did not believe that person brat it people should be
Families should be able to talk about that and and respect the fact that your brother or sister would it for for our president and you didn't. You know we find it? Let us discuss it in a wooden press, you about him. What didn't impressive Why did you vote for him and do it with civil discourse? We have lost the art of civil. Does worse and and mines is going to restore that, but that working on the that's, I'm glad you said that's one thing that I've learned how to do by doing this, podcast learn how to talk to people better, learn how to really listen to people and be when I first started broadcast ten years ago, our proposal very good at it, I didn't really have any experience doing it mostly, but I was one was me talking. I was stand up, comedy morrows talking to my friends, my friends, civil, like Social, Civil discourse like be able to sit down and people in common
they're down and talk and have compassion genuine compassion for each other and just listen to each other. One of the lost arts in in human interaction, because you know what because we see only what the person did we not. You know enters who they voted for or or what they believe in what they did. You know what group they joined. We know see what led them to that end because we don't talk to right. You know when you know what we were only interested in the result like let us go to Roger Kelly. Black people are criminals. Why Why are they criminals? Well? How do you say that? Well because Darrow you know them, we're a lapse in prison than there are whites, This is the result. What led up to that right so that you know that where we loons, what's also it's very difficult for people to actually have conversations like most people or committing to test,
messages and Emil's and occasionally phone calls. That's that's how they interact with each other and then, if you go out to dinner dinner at a restaurant, you'll see people just sitting across which understandably balance I mean it's it's one of the worst times for interaction face to face. I mean I've never seen a pie chart on the difference between the way human beings talk, but there is no question that the amount of people per capita that communicate through electronics versus the way just talking. Person to person over the last ten years is radically increased and so has our hostility towards each other in a lot of ways, particularly through those electronic mediums hostile through social media is a relatively new thing. Social media hate mean in these mob group suggests, go after people. That's that's ten years, maybe max right. Two thousand tension, This is a new thing in human history. In this way, you're doing what you're talking about just sitting down its soul,
school talking to people becoming friends of peoples who speak in you. Ve got these projects I mean you ve. You set This sort of friendship in motion with these people and you ve changed the course of their lives, and that's it. And they in turn job losses. What is that you're dragon? Fellow: what's that guy do in these days He has to work like two or three jobs, because Unfortunately, We we you have that our stigma and you work for company where the public sees you and they were what did he used to do bricklayer, Britain, brick major so he works security now But you were there a lot more of them. You know days some of them if they dont have a young family, some we'll come out with me and speak out if the form organization design a guy. Whose re prominent Christian
people in China do know him. I did along the same lines he's doing. That too is like yeah he's a meaningful and helping to a geographical area. Was he co founder of other groups life after eight, and in their lot of those of farmers, who will do that? They don't have a young family because oftentimes they can get the ramifications. You know for speaking out against here. They're organisms should rise. You take now joined with patience and they'll come after you. Uncle can I your family then like that so some fly low under the radar. So your book, what is a titled? The book is called clandestine, slowly, hey invest in relationships and right now that that book is out of print I'm working on it, second edition sudden copy, which you have all new stories in and plus a lot of the an update have you ever done audio book? Nobody
I do it. You re voice. Man ready for an larynx is right now, but I have a norm of wisdom comes and goes. I can hear, hear crackle up, but the opposite: a booming voice. Are you ill be gone a couple days I learned at his dear I mean that that way, it's always easy to put back in print as well. So many people that digesting audio books versus books me included. I mean I this tell us no outer part cast, but I mean I think, half the time in my car must audio. Would you get the idea to do a perk? Yes, what impetus Probably no one would ever give me a radio show those for a man. I think I had gotten some offers to do radio show, but it was heard like no money and I know satellite radio kind of a deal for no money, and I had a friend Did he come here? Who's on this show opium Anthony and he did a radio like an internet thing in his base,
just for fun? He was already on a radio show, but he put up a green screen in his basement and his however not, and he would get you can you carry- okey holding a machine gun like crazy shit, but hilarious, and I was like this guy- just set up a studio in its basement home. While does this, and dumb? So I said: well, let me just do a little web thing. And so me in my friend Brian, we started doing it with a webcam just in a laptop just talking to people online, answering questions and then it started carrying on. But then that was ten years ago and they just kept growing and then it became what it is now just by just keep doing it. That's all was I just kept doing it, and then it went from thousands of millions is this weird number of people that are listening to it and watching it now to its because hunger for which we are putting up there well conversation yeah your conversation, we're gonna, have a agenda. I just want to talk to people like with you will soon
I got the pigeons like. I need to talk to you like what you doing is saying and an amazing and vat. A very unusual for soon have that kind of patients and commitment to something like that and to convert these people and without judgment and to be able to rationalize with them in and talk to them reasonably These are my fellow American S. You know we all. Are we all in this game together and sometimes people get trapped in a really I can stupid ideology and they don't. They then there's a part of brain. That knows it's dumb. His approach- their brain. It knows it's toxic and that they deny that big nor that they squash it and they try. To avoid thinking about it, and then someone like you comes in their life and you cannot cope. This door and Joe you know that a toxic thing happened on both sides and I catch hail from people who look like may not everybody in oh, but there their people Look like me who to totally disapprove because you're giving these people platform is blocking with them. Yes, you have arisen.
Can that change somebody's mind will buy. This allowing them to express was on their mind right. You know what that's the argument about deep flat. Warming, people online right right. Then the argument and the other way is it your radicalizing young people, the. Argument is there's a lot of young people that would go on these social media sides and in their impressionable and you don't know any better, particularly you too. They worry about that, because these Youtube videos they have music in its multi media, gradually, howling and with, really good narrator. You can get people to put this fuckin flatter. Movement in right, where's that coming from a comes from a few articulate narrators who put together these views he goes on Youtube. They are, the only ones you get to talk. Scientists don't get too interjected. Stop that's wrong. Does not I'll show. You know it's like this. Look. Here's a satellite photo! Look! Here's a hundred satellite photos! Look! Here's all the satellites take pictures of the earth. They don't get to do.
That's so these guys they they'll have long uninterrupted. Now I read video that makes so much sense. You you listen to this guy guys he's genes, oh my god, the world's flat. I can't leave invoking lying to me so there's hundreds thousands of people to believe in the flat now because they ve been radicalized because they ve been converted by these. Multi media things like Youtube? This is people worried about in terms of radicalizing them towards hateful ideologies as well mad you're, using that word radical yeah. That's it actually you spot on, because You know we was until recently that would begin using that word domestically, we know for They were only using it. Or from middle eastern type people. When, when somebody like Dylan Roof, he did with is that he was radicalized, so you know he's. He must have some mental issues, but
both isn't. It was sure, but it wasn't haslets inserts. Shooting people have mutilation, yes, but it, but they have, but they have become what what then become radicalized. Maybe of mental issues. Yes, you know, but but we don't We don't save our lives when it comes to our own, yellow could we wish end of it. So many different code, words for example. What do you call these groups? white people who go out in the woods and practice. Maneuvers survival is the survival of stuff. They are like Anti government, Canada Paramilitary yeah, like what do they call them? Malicious, exactly, ok militias, What are you? What do you call the same type of things with black people that did not Yet they call them. They call them militants the black. Panthers, ok, right right. So what
is this is the exact same thing right, but why on term hasn't had more of a negative connotations militia. Got a pretty negative connotations, not as negative as militant yeah guess It seems essential to me was a mistake: back when, when Obama got into office. We have a new political party came out of nowhere. The tea part, the tea party less on Europe, Tea party was in seventeen. Seventy six. What happened to them does tea party for this too, round? Really, yes, it announces a tea party, not not because a bomb is done now. I think that by the time he would mean was before he was even gone. Didn't last part because it he got a second term work, but but there their slogan was take our country back our country back. Ok, take America back that
blah blah blah well, would not take our country back back the segregation. The code term for the tea body, that that was a clarion call and people eleven it with a certain ill of people. There at slogan started in eighteen, fifty, four with the clan Maybe you ve heard before when Brown versus the Board of Education They said schools in want you to, All these plan rallies with these words, dancing with burning growth and balancing will take our country back that might white boys and girls what little Nigger children blah blah blah? What would not take our country back Bang disaggregation didn't want integrate right. So I would ask you to many people. Why are you using a clan slogan and its? Oh dear, oh, that's not what we mean also, well, you don't say, take our country back from who also take our country back to what
Is it definitely bat an open ended? What what are you trying to say What we need is will not take our country back from the Democrats. Take it back to republican rule. Ok, that's fine! Why not say that exactly the using an already use slogan. The right take a case is that, with our Harkin's to those people write and tears thing last time I checked Bill Clinton was Democrat, Jimmy Carter with a Democrat. Where was it you party was take our country back and then all of a sudden, I guess in the White House, screaming take our country back right right, you can put would you together right? Where were you guys eight years ago? exactly and now shut up market the king had we had to fight fight for decades, to have Martin Luther King Day.
There was a lot of resistance to that. Do you realize that A lot of resistance was the fact that Martin Luther King does the only american man in this country have a holiday to himself rang, guess what he's black what you mean by how they are to himself. The member states, an american other. Try carnivores when it became more. He thought it first, Columbus didn't even land here. Anyone like basically a serial killer, zero killer. He was a rapists and pillaging, and hidden discover a damn thing, wouldn't dare to call an indigenous peoples day now yeah. Now, how do you discover something when you get there people already there be real
only that like? Why did it take into basically the later ladder half of the twentieth century before people came to grips with the fact that, with an atrocious human being like when we were kids it's when I was a little beyond the young. Fifty to when I was in high school Columbus sailed. The ocean blue learned to the Santa Maria need open Maria. This was this was a guy was an explorer. You go in there for Spain user and then, when you get older in you, you learn need these missionaries accounts of the horrific crimes and that we still celebrated yeah. Well I mean do we sort of sound we kind of are done. Celebrating don't have Columbus Day issues. Digital people's day now they call it that we will Counter Resources Columbus Day, does it yeah not on the apple counter, really asking? I don't think so? Maybe I was ahead of its time. I think it says indigenous Peoples Day now asked lady I'm wrong, but I thought ensure that should now so
we used to have two white, guys, which had a holiday all to himself Americans who those guys we too have. Maybe, for your time we're doing my time with Washington Day and Abraham Lincoln Day, really where those days you remember that, I'm here and there though we had too many holidays, they combine those two days in one day, ok, we'll do any holidays of productivity. Is that with Serbia, so it took goes away, combine them. So now the only american man who has I would say to himself the black man and they can't handle it more, the king and now what they will fight for it, aids to give this holiday? he gave his life to bring this country together. Yet we a holiday to Christopher Columbus who, as you point,
out was a murderer. Serial killer pillage you're a rapist, wouldn't discover a damn thing. The king never murdered pillaged and raped but yet we don't want to give him a holiday in, so that your that's equity in country, something else what a lot of people who would disagree with me and that's: ok, we're Americans. We can disagree and we all individuals, but the people who will We would be also- and I in saying this now for twenty two years, one of the things that will help us two to advance into the tent for a century, we are behind the times. We need, at this point to get rid of black history, now I know level people listening, I'm gonna like freak out what it was about about. Let me explain.
For the longest time we needed. Blackie a month black history, with not being taught in our schools but when you pointed out a moment ago that when you were in school it'll, come the hero of the M, etc, and then you gotta go where'd you learn. Otherwise, when I was in high school, there was not an hour textbooks that we had interment camps Japanese, Americans. I did not learn that until I got to college, but what are you kidding me? I don't believe it now is in the text, but, as I said, you were behind the times. Ok, so anyway, I wouldn't have black history, What we had was called american history. It might as well have been white history, but that's all, it was an even in some cases, which are being given credit for and they did not invent places they did not discover, but we do
we were told at home, there's at that, but not in schools. So we had to fight fight fight. And finally, we got one week. It was, negro history, Weak Carter, GI, Woodson, created that and schools had Negro history week. One week a year we continue fighting hard. Even harder. Finally, we got one month. Will you know nobody gave us? Everything went downright dollar that, little by little, so We got that one month, shore months of the year right February. Noise is no coincidence. But but but we accept For two reasons, it was the birth month of two of our heroes: Frederick Double and Abraham Lincoln, so we ve that and then we stop fighting and that
the mistake on our part. We became complacent and now is my belief that black you month has become detrimental to to us to all of us. Might ambled, I'll, tell you why? Yes, we needed it for certain prototypes. We had nothing but here's the problem. We only study black history in February. Each February we study the same half a dozen people. Martin Luther king, Rosa Parks, Harriet Tubman, broker to wash Washington, Carver and one or two other ones? By the time we get Half a dozen up our month is over, a black man, let's move on right, yet we still Benjamin Franklin Eli Whitney Alexander, Graham Bell, Thomas Edison, F, F, Scott Fitzgerald, France, Scott Key all year long,
we constantly reinforcing what they did all your long. We never forget who flew the kite and the lightning hit. The key and we have electricity- we all know with Ben Franklin- are right, but yet If you ask some kid in June, say on? who was Harriet Tubman, oh yeah yeah. I remember your shoes that lady who refuse to give to proceed on the bus bigotry confused with those parts, This has been no reinforcement since February and then next year, next February, it's the same half a dozen people are so your constantly. I'm not take anything away from those people. They were some the greatest art, but you constantly reinforcing that there were only six or seven black people saw country. Where did anything? What about the guy? Who invented the trap? the light. What about the president had been at the ironing board, and so many other black discoveries and inventions, but what we don't have time for that. We only have one month, you happy
Ben Franklin, all your long women's history month is March. When you get me that to take these things, those months I've put em where they belong under the Umbrella of american history, them all year. Long that way, kids get accustomed to this They learn and may have more respect for each other. I remember when I was a kid: Miss America Beauty contest. There are only two categories: that was all white women I was not allowed to join this to compete in this America. All the judges were white males to cattle, Where is the evening gown evening where and the swimsuit, that was it, women were objectified, there were six objects didn't have talent, didn't need when essay or short ethic- and it will just looked at and judge on that so black women, were deemed not beautiful enough to run to compete in this America pleasant.
In want any white man, judging a black woman in a bathing suit or whatever so black women, begin having little self esteem, which, though they were not as beautiful as other women, so what did we as black people due to elevate the esteem self esteem of black girls? We created the Miss Black America, beauty pageant to give them something to aspire to, and that worked for a while. Finally, finally, Miss America The big one came to his senses and opened its doors no, the exact year biogas. Back in the seventies. Sometime opened its doors to all american women, regardless of their ethnicity, color whatever they were american, they could compete and since that time, with, with more than one Miss American been black story: with Vanessa Williams and then Debbie Turner.
Maybe one or two other ones since that time so now because Miss America has come into the time, we can get rid of black of Miss Black America. We don't even in more right, we get the main one. When are we going to come to american history when you get rid of blackish month? We just we just finished the first like american President. What we do, throw Obama always put him in in the end, the February Box when we talk about him in February. To talk about him in March September. Has he's black history put him in February. You know I don't know, I'm lost four words. Man is crazy. How we we do this. Listen, we claim to be The greatest nation on the face of this earth, I have a problem with that and don't get me wrong. I'm a patriot. I love my country, but I do have
with that statement and I'll say that perhaps we are the greatest need visit this earth. Technologically. After all, we Put a man on the moon, we invite the technology to carry that man to the moon, safe- Lee and allow him to walk around you're back in his Marshall and come back to earth safely, we invented that technology, not only that When he was when, when the Armstrong was up there, walkin around and made famous some once more for a man, one giant leap for mankind quote: we were able to talk with them live, all the way from Earth NASA headquarters all the way, the to the moon, live vs light radio phone. We invented that technology Americans everybody, you know, has a cell phone, but you know has a male hit. A few words
said, a few numbers. It send you're talking to people that's door in Nevada or overnight, China, Australia, wherever you want off one of its desserts. We invented technology. So how is it. There. We as Americans can talk to people. As far away as the moon or anywhere in the world, this earth. Yet So many of us have difficulty talking to the American who lives right next door because he or she is a different color, a different religion, a different ethnicity, a their persuasion, a different whatever It seems to me that before weaken herself, the greatest our ideology needs to catch up to our technical and when we get ourselves up they're both of them up there, then we can do We Brad about how great we are. Because we are living in the twenty first century,
we are living in space age times. Yet still so many of us thinking was stone age minds. What is this doing in the twenty first century? What we are doing in any century? But yet when I first century that it be kidding me well. It brings me back to what you were saying earlier, that the problem is education, the problems. Ignorance right and that the solution to education is ignorance and This is sort of the same thing when it comes to radicalizing young people online right. The one of the reasons why that works at all is because he's young people are susceptible to other ideas because their intent just immune Une systems very low. They don't have a lot of data. They don't have a lot of education, they don't have a lot of information and they don't have a lot of perspective, so they can be. Stick be tracked. The early ropedown, yes and
since this is the same with everything. This is the same with what you are talking about with not trusting your neighbours, because there are different nationality or different color and not communicating with people, There are many different, the new and being toxic tribal its. Kind of the same thing. It's like there's a lot. Lack of understanding of the consequences that are globally and in personally to your own life. Well again, you know that two mines is gonna help those young kids get get those perspectives. We will have people on there who are the exports and second, those kids into enter these. Are things and I know a former jihadi recruiter for ISIS who who, who used to recruit kids to put here the states give him just go the guy from from a DNS in guinea but to do in order to lure people. India's movement was Diana SAM, a national
It was evident. Nazis yeah so please. You are willing to help on my and help point out these. Things it'll telltale sizes, what the look for you know your parents can spot what This is a sound right above our blood running gimmicks, of a Europe, does give kids about a prospectus minds, have a video component to or will it will it we're out of early absolutely my working on that yeah Sudan, that is for better mean whether its correct or not apparently the people that are really worried about people being radicalized online are more concerned with that than anything else with video this. Think about the compelling videos like the music and video ass, oh yeah, kids grow today play video games are all day lures the men, but That's what I was saying before when and what can I finish. It was happy that that we did. We dont seen the media law. Is this when I was a kid
the black population in this country was twelve percent. Eleven point: nine twelve percent native Americans, just under one percent, are hispanic people, the people two and three percent Asians, four percent? Why people? Eighty four eighty six percent, so white people of this premises- type mindset their biggest their biggest nemesis. Of course, we're black people percent well with me too much. You know that in care anything about native Americans, they attitudes just one percent student was away. Forget about em right and that's where, is negative terms come from maybe you don't realize, are- are insulting terms. We say somebody's got off the reservation. For that term before The thought of that exactly
yeah. You know why you see what I'm saying you don't realize it's it's a negative term MIA, always devices now you're caught and they can business ok, Hooper, garden right right I thought it was a nice way sand motherfucker, you won it like a freak. India is another kind of invisible or will always somebody comes on the wrong side of the tracks that ones yeah, you led the true railroad track divided. On one side was on the wrong side, of course, of the blacks that anyway, so. The biggest nemesis if they were of that supremacists mindset were black people, twelve percent too much right now. Today black people. We remain a twelve percent with not grown twelve point six and leave you look it too seventeen senses. We have not ground twelve percent, native. Americans are still at one percent,
since, or at six percent Hispanics have surpassed us. Then I get thirteen percent or something just above thirteen percent. So let's just take twelve percent black thirteen percent hispanic, let alone six percent asian, whatever that's twenty five percent, not white. This is happening again and this will protect it by point forty two, which is twenty two years from now. This country, for the first time in history, will be fifty percent white after two percent non white. I don't I don't do. That and so the story you see use through that very hard pill to swallow for people of that mindset. They becoming unhinged and disconcerted, you know
is that they will not replace us precisely you exactly you're, getting it exactly and that's what all the browning of Amerika and white genocide. Asleep what they're doing as these groups are stepping up their recruitment efforts now because What one of the one of the main problems is in this country it concerns, is illegal immigration. So these groups thing No we're gets illegal immigration to come. Come join us no they're getting on a legitimate bandwagon, but when they illegal, immigration is a code word so code word for people, for of America, Mexico, West Africa, because your plenty people here in this country right now, who here Canada nobly gives a fuck about Canadians, color eggs will sadly Canadians or or who from the UK, Europe, because they were not even speak, perfect English to ensure they slide right in and it doesn't matter if this be privilege or not
If you're in no way is not and climate will tell me Darrell, I don't want my grand to be brown well, you know if they, Is there a kid were to marry somebody from Canada there, It's gonna be white or the UK, Eastern Europe cannot be white, but if they let you as you know, somebody from El Salvador or Guatemala or Nigeria, oh heavens. Bit right. Heaven forbid is the trouble what happens is that Come join us. You know it would not take our country back with a bill that Wall blah blah blah so people. The peoples of the landscape, changing and so they go and join these groups. Loop doesn't do anything so then, what happens is that you know what the clan can't do it. The DNS M can't do I'll, do it myself, and that's when they walk into a synagogue boomable owing to a blank cheque book a boom rail pass over the baboon. These of course alone, wolves. Now we
of intelligence agencies or whatever that can infiltrate some of these groups and get in there and get all the stuff and foibles plots. Enow gather intelligence, but you can not infiltrate alone worth only one person, right and as we get closer and closer to twenty forty. Two, unfortunately, will I see more and more of Islam Wolves and that's where the for though you notice every time one of these white supremacist types gets a busted they go on wages home. What are they find cash of automatic weapons and all that kind of stuff? That's where the race WAR, when they track racism over the last one hundred years, its decline, it set a measurable decline, but not enough what could be done to accelerate that decline? What do you think can be done to sort of start starting
She asked stuff exhibits spill spike up the silks in elementary school. I did go to high school by seven What do you mean exactly? Our country is so diverse, now We need to learn about the history of everybody and our country and everybody's contributions to making this a great country. White, black, hispanic, women, whatever our it is truly a melting pot and we and we need to treat it as such and give everybody credibility. So person looks different the maid, but he contributed something that I need. I look different than hand, but I can t The EU needs into that kind of thing. So we have more mutual respect for one another the older generations and I'd die out, but we have to stop them from proliferating there there be. To these younger generations, and we do this in schools
look went when I was an engineer high school, which they have any more right. They have middle school. Now sets education was being introduced. Parents were free, out. Oh my god, I don't like you, learn that. Well, guess what they don't want, that you're going to school learning about sets, but yet these parents were not teaching their kid about sex at home either they don't care learning it. How do I stop acute about sex? If you don't teachers and school educate and properly you're, not wanting to do at home, you kissed, have learnt and where, where's. He or she gonna learn it out in the street. And then what are you doing? You kid comes on pregnant, you gonna, be all freaked out So, if you want to take steps said when I, enjoying junior high school. Bring a note for your parents. Thing was ok, yeah yeah ok and then you let alone small class of five or six people taken six said today is part of the regulatory
and as a result, kids today are better informed. Venereal disease, Stds, family planning, contraception and all these kinds of things: they because been then alumni ignorant they have more information right this same thing had the taboo assets it education has been lifted. We need to lift the taboo one on on racism in schools and talk about it, an early age, how much time are allocating towards teaching people had accept diverse groups and how to accept it had a fight against racism and means that something that's taught it seems like that should be of a core curriculum in private schools where I see it is most in private schools. I dont see and public schools, which is very unfortunate: your parents,
parents seem to surrender to run the schools in if, if, if your kid, for example, you send your kids school and you find that your kid, not learning which you thank you she should learn. What do you do you take him out of this and put him in another school right, they'll learn put him in a private school, then learn it there. You can go. You home schooling, and so I'm for an open about a schools are very low to do to step on. It shows hell yeah. They don't want to upset the thing or whatever, but they need to the parents are not the teachers, the teachers of the teachers. Well, it seems that if you could weighing the kids, how people get radicalized dig. It explained the kids what happens on line, how they draw you in. What's the appeal of being a part of a tribe and which is a big part of it right, a big part of his being like again run same thing that attracts kids to gaze. I get
but he's in it were altogether it's against in a tight group right I mean that that guy people in and when they draw you in, like that, if the kids at all this that shit, they talked about seven green, I know you do. I mean just that they are better prepared, said information. Sadly, yes, and so schools of one thing, academic at an early age, the nets, the no fault of churches, what wants it churches? I mean religious institutions which wouldn't its and adopts etc. And you know I hate to get down on the clergy, but I'm telling you they they are they they have accountability, but they're, not accepting- and don't get me wrong on the question of the cost of out- and I was a beacon in my chair, at one time. But here's the thing. Whether your jewish Catholic, Protestant Mormon, whatever you have some form of Sunday school after you. I'm in the basement. In your ear facility, your church or temple, or whatever
and your Sunday school lesson when you're for five years old, they teach you that up we're all gods children, God made a rainbow right and we accept for five years old, and then We grow older, which puberty and adolescents, whatever we move upstairs to the big congregation. Now we're sitting up there with the adults, the the clergy, the rabbi, the priest, the minister, the past, the Reverend. What are the whatever no longer teaches that Sunday school lesson? They stop saying upstairs we're all godchildren children. What do you think would happen If the reverend the priests were said, the congregation once anyone hey folks, guess what It's ok for blacks and whites to Mary. It's ok for Jews to marry Catholics. Congregation would get up and leave. When we put in their money in the end the collection plate Could you not hearing what they want to hear right and because it had not been continued,
that that Sunday, school lesson needs to be continued, upstairs so adults we'll let you know well a rainbow. We all agree. Children, but the police does not say that or the reverend that said that anymore, because he's afraid walking on eggshells and stop the flow of money coming in ties and offerings in their collection, plate, it will be changed in churches or firing em right and then, Your kid is, let's say let's say with SAM Catholic and now I'm in twelve grade and I'm going to the senior prom so my mom says so- so they're hoo, hoo, hoo, didn't senior prom, take gum. Susan Goldberg. Yeah you know. This is a nice girl, but but don't you think you could take a nice cap, or your mama may, but in a word I thought we're all gonna children.
Yet we are, but exactly, but is not a God word but is a man word? Yes, God was perfect. If, if we, if we are to believe in the concept of God than we are to believe if the guy did not make any exceptions and button mistakes? Is there a little loopholes? He was pervert from the word. Go, but is a man. Word is an exception. God was perfection. Man is exception right, so that's what happened. You know if so, so, that's why? The clergy does not continue that Sunday school lesson of losing money, in other words, a potent they put money above morality and they should be held accountable. Well, it seems like there's a lot of problems. It's not! It's not one thinks not just declared
in such as schools; it certainly the parents and ensure that the parents were taught. So it's the parents parents its thick. Turning to the Inn rights, but but the bidding inherited one at one of the most, the most influential, unless your atheists, of course, the mole influential! already in your life is your church. Everybody knows the church of the kid yeah unless you're atheists, whatever so there that that ways very heavily for how do you announced the atheists? Then? How do you reach the atheists, then hell, yeah agnostic allotted atheists and a lot and an have excellent morals. A lot of them do there, the oh, they have churches called ethical societies. And ass many than before they don't believe in. God is not something that I advocate, but I'm saying that they no right from Rome and you find less controversy
Anna and racism and more acceptance and these places, because it's about ethics and morality more so than division. Why do you have a white Baptist church and a black Baptist church? Was that all about that too should be Baptist it's the same, king, James Bible? You know. And what you know. Why aren't they are they put in the same lesson: school. They preach upstairs they're, not certain about some little little foreign five year olds. They were all gotcha. That made a rainbow in. Why? Because of you don't have any money, so the knock, getting any money in the collection point there. It doesn't matter, where the money is you you say what got to say, to get the amount of money that you need. So you know I don't go to church. So that's an alien concept to me, but that's sad. If that's
the lesson of that's the way their structuring their lessons in a church or synagogue or a temple that that's, how they're doing their structuring the structuring there less to achieve more donations, locally mega churches, yeah, look at him and how many times do some of these priests and just get in trouble days, those megatrend is always seem to me to be run by caught. Leaders that are keeping it together. Tat just keep it either staying within the structure of traditional crucial if they want to believe in something yes, so I don't believe in the plan, one Believe rise in and whatever yes, yeah yeah yeah, it's true, I believe we have yes, intense desire to stay tribal, we ve got to consider ourselves a tribe of the human race, exactly the human race. Can be taught to people. You can, I think, what you d, what you'd proving and what you're doing
by your amazing accomplishments of showing that that? even in the most radicalized of people, the k, K, K and the National Socialist Movement, your converting people, what are you up with Friends of mine, like I just scoop, who was the that recently. Of the Un S M economically. Sue, cofounded alive after hate and Spends his whole life dedicated to de radicalizing people, please do not have to have talked absolute. You know you can get their perspective. What got them in but, more importantly, what got them out? What were the trigger I got them out, after years of hating people in doing this What made them see something differently, How can that be parleyed into two other entities MA am hoping that just hearing
from someone who's, maybe struggling with that? Maybe maybe they live in a very tribal community or of their and some sort of a toxic environmental family dragged men and their there really trying to figure out how long they can do this and how they can get out and what what's the steps to get out we're not only giving out, but you know there has to be, and here's another that provide for these people The term brought provides support because oftentimes, you know these people If they come from a family that that was the belong to these groups, and they decide to leave the group whatever. Yet it is still got their family or whatever, but if, if they come from, family that that was not racist was apple, maybe It may have been some dysfunction or that you read the wrong book or maybe The wrong person and went down that that rabbit hold or whatever they give an oath and they join these groups. The fact
we the sounds, then you know what you kid around your house. If you have black friends jewish friends and he's over their insulting them. You'd you stay with this house? You know you're, not gonna, make it right, so their fans, He becomes that group by right due to the blood okhinnah, we got your bad. You got our bad, we are a family. Just like gangs. Does I gangs ok and then finally, you come to your senses, and you see how crazy it was and you quit you, you get out Now you're, you love others swinging in the wind, because your buyer, with that! Mr doesn't want you disgrace them. You're. All France in high school found out you you'd gone down that road didn't want associate with you, because you have that the stench the stigma attached to you. You may be an ex clamour, But that extra member will always proceed your title you know like, for example, David Duke
yeah. He even out the different white supremacist groups, but. Whenever you see him in the media was exclaimed. Leader David, do blah blah blah there just David Duke that title exclaimed leader, it follows you people, you know, look on you for that. You can't go that Euro group you ve betrayed them. So they want nothing to do with use up to beat you up or something and so now you're out here can go to your family, your friends of disowned you, you turned out drugs or some the gang its have up to now, the licence right so that needs something there to support them so, where I come in, where did I in which ask him something to believe and help their self esteem etc. Damnatory import Therefore, any anybody's he's listen right now what what is the best way for them to,
find out more, what's the best way for them to take a step like what? What what website, which point do to point them to your minds account. Yes, I want them to our two minds calm and change dot mines that and Darrow David. Dot com the eight hour a why our only one hour, Darrell Davis, dot com. Listen where you duns amazing, and what? What year, your message? The way you handle yourself the way you ve managed to infiltrate those groups just talk sense to them and convert them. It's it's inspiring and very humbling, and thank you I really appreciate being here. Man relies leisure, my pleasure spreading your message that instead of this port one- yes, sir, let's do it again. I would like to thank you very much there, my letter by everybody. Thank you ruin for tuna into the show, and thank you to our sponsors thank you to zip recruiter the
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charity building wells for the pygmies in the Congo? My friends, thank you. So much love to you all bye by and.
Transcript generated on 2020-01-30.