« The Joe Rogan Experience

#1432 - Aubrey de Grey

2020-02-26 | 🔗
Aubrey de Grey is an English author and theoretician in the field of gerontology and the Chief Science Officer of the SENS Research Foundation.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hello, friends, welcome to the show this episode. Gas is brought to you by the mother, fucking cash app, you probably already. No, the cash adds the easiest way to send a receive money, especially when you're friends, oh you or when you owe them, but now it's the best way to try to grow your money in the market with their new investing feature and, unlike other books, Shit as investing tools that only let you buy entire shares of stock can lets you invite as little as one dollar. So, if you like hedge bats like you could still be in the kids with one buck? cash. I was also the easy way to buy and sell Bitcoin. So what you waiting for when you download the cash app enter the roof, Ok, Joe Rogan, all one word you receive ten dollars and the cash apples and ten dollars to our good friend, just in Rennes fight for the forgotten charity. Building wells for the pig needs in the Congo, so don't forget, used to promote
Joe Rogan. When you down the cash out from the app store or the Google play store to day. We are also brought to you by the genes on where right now I will rev town genes. I am a big fan, of what you would call stretching genes would stress. Genes are, is their genes that look like genes, but you can move around them. Well, there's a bunch of different companies that make stretched genes No one makes them better than Rev Town Rev town is the perfect balance between look and feel of really nice, high and designer genes, but the flu stability and movement that you would get from Paris, sweat, pants, this com, any that was started by a couple guys from under armor. They actually workable started under our sir, They know a lot about stretching clothes in these guys took the stretch, fabrics, the fibres and all this
activities shit that makes football uniform stretch, but not writhed, and they met with this old World Denham designer in MILAN, ITALY and came up with genes. It look unfit amazing but feel like you were in a comfy pair of wet or yoga pants. I wear time. Folks there there are absolutely my number one genes and they have only in two years business and of the fastest growing Brandon Denham and they just launched their woman's line. Format you go see him by a lady appear to or ladys fearlessness you buy for yourself, you don't need a fuckin man, God damn why myself sexist at seven bucks, a pair there, also less than half the price less than a third. Of some designer genes that you jam in your stuff into four years, but they feel way better their absolute, my favorite genes ever and you could pick up a pair at Rev town USA die calm, Slash, Rogan and bonus
of town now, ships internationally, so you can get him deliver to your doorstep, no matter where you live head over to have town, USA, Tom, Slash, Rogan, two up your datum game! That's rare! town, USA, dot com, Slash Rogan we are also brought to you by stamps dot com. Kids! Listen to me, Listen to me! Do you need to send something through the male well. You're doing yourself a disservice. If you dont use Damp Stockholm stamps dot. Com brings you all of the amazing services in the? U S post office, but they bring it right, Your computer, whether you are a small office, sending invoices and online sour shipping, our products or even a warehouse sending thousands of packages a day stamps dot com can handle it all with ease. They gave you
The entire: U S: postal services, possibilities right right! You little fingertips right from a computer. You can buy in print official? U S postage twenty four seven any letter, any package, any class of male anywhere. You want to send it in. What's your males ready, you just handed to your mail carrier drop it in your mail box and its sample was damp stock army also get discounted rates, discounted postage rates, you can You can get at the post office not to mention its aid fraction of the cost of the expensive postage meters, there's no equipment to lease and no long term commitments stand tat comes in no brainer saves time and money. It's no wonder why over seven hundred thousand small businesses already use stamps dot com. Right now. My listeners can get ace mind you, I owe you, Nurse they're here my words, Unita
Special offer that includes a for weak trial plus free puts posted her return that doing so good you can. Thus free postage and a digital scale without any long term. Commitment just go to stamp. Stockholm click on the microphone at the top and homepage and type in J r E that stamps dot com and entered calm and entered J R, and were also brought to buy zoom zoom and invent video conferencing day just made it better. They nailed it now. Zoom is how business gets done. Zoom ties together. All of your communication needs into one easy app for video, Financing phone calls group chat weapon ares and your car? France rooms turn any workspace into a modern, easy to use. Zoom room, an enterprise, great vis.
Oh conference room design for instant collaboration with flawless video and audio instant? Why This content sharing in that at a single tap of a button to start a meeting that hither button and soon phone works seamlessly from any device as your business phone system too, egg and receive phone calls capture, call recordings and easily elevate from phone call to video. If the need arises, Zoom is used by millions to convey around the world. Why why, any longer viz, zoom online and set up your free account today meet happy, calm. Ladies and gentlemen, my next guest, my guest today, is my guest today is, is making a return of return appearance it's been five years. His name is Aubrey degrade. He is in
English, author in biomedical gerontology test, and he is The chief science officer of this sends research foundation and VP of new technology. Governor at age Ex therapeutics ink he's an Ty age scientists. Folks he's gonna help us live longer. A brilliant man a really enjoy talking to him. It was great to see him again. He looks back to the same age. Are enough? That's a coincidence. Please give it up for Aubrey Degree the job will gain experience was about what they did. You trim you're beers and so sinew asked no unavoidable it. You have a baby for actually shorter, but those early, because before the more it falls, oh yeah, I'm working overtime, united, compulsive, oh and so the yet these weird hairs they have to work in a note enough. Immunity for that
Finally, you know, but I guess you, I guess, those that nutrition, so the beers the same length, You got any younger since I've seen you say hi to say what does your does your business? That's my business! If you how many years as events as I saw you for a minute I think it was April between fifty and you have not even have not got younger I have no gun younger. Have you intend, I think, of pretty much maintained ass, but not through my own were so. The work is still very much on going, though we have come a long way in the past five years, but you know this is a complicated thing to fix. Yes, we need to fix all of it in order to really make people start biologically under. So let's bring people up to speed, but what? What have the? What are the latest revelations? What's the the latest in terms, What we stand it in terms of what could possibly be fixed about human agent or so the fund.
If the that question, if there are no new regulations in terms of what we understand, understanding things to have been pretty much complete already like twenty years ago. The fight but we haven't found out any fundamental new stuff that we didn't know before. Then, is fantastic news, because of course it means that we are unlikely to find anything out in the future either. It means that we are pretty much on top of the description of the problem and therefore its about following the problem is it possible summarize the problem, but the flower? What causes human age ensure that easy, so aging is simply the same thing in a living organism. Let you owe me as what it is in a car airport or any other simple man, my machine. It's a fact of physics, nothing to do with biology that any machine that have moving parts is gonna do itself damage in the course of its normal operation has an intrinsic consequence: of its normal operation of cancer in the same way they occur. Russia is gonna, bring that microphone. I get whipped
but about a fist from your face ferns and whether the car Russ or an argument junk in the oil or whatever, similar the human body does damage to itself again. Just like a car and airplane the human body is set up to tolerate a certain amount of that damage so that we can get through, to the point where we have kids before we, dot gun functionally downhill when a mentally or physically, but after that evolution of care about it anymore and therefore we only equipped to autonomy, that much and eventually the damage that is being done, accumulates to appoint beyond what the body set up tolerate in that when things start to go wrong and was at function as well.
What is the difference, physically between a young person, older person, terms of their ability to recover from the damage of just regular everyday life and exercise and abuse running around all that? So that's just one aspect of the difference between a young person, older persons. Let me answer that question by stepping back one step, so the difference alternately arises from what the body of made of them you know I will invite level they body a criminal. Various changes that chemicals and biological consequences of what the body have did, keep us alive. One day to the next, even starting before, were born and changes are, if I'm eating the word damage to the scottish changes, because Eventually, things don't work so well, fuck. You are quite right that recovery from injury is one thing that doesn't work so well, but there are plenty of other things whether it
of african run how she could think. How strongly can grip something have article work. You know all of these things become progressively less good, but the point is that the amount by which they become less good if pre negligible until the age of forty or fifty, if only then that the decline start to accelerate. So what do you do in your online? to try to mitigate that excel regime. Already bad example of that crazy way. Europe. This is your business. There are two reasons why about? The first reason is that I'm really well built if lucky I just one of those hateful people who I can eat exactly what I like him. Nothing's happened. Even they do exercises bake of football. Article VI under them. I actually I'm chronological, how old you chronologically girls around fifty seven. How do you think you are biologically? Well, I'm told that I'm a good decade less than that
get told everytime. I do these tests, which have been doing for the path. Let me say, eighteen years, yes, that's pretty good. Is so you're lucky genetically yet, but the other thing You know I'm working hard to hasten the debate of aging maybe internet when you know, maybe the amount that I'm hastening? It is more than the damage I'm doing myself by, for example, not getting to sleep and used I'll drink booze. I still drink. However, and probably more than the average American. What does it mean? I feel better. A few beers Adele, maybe with a view to three or four three forbears every day, and whisky or to every day as well. Mr so six days a week or six drinks today might well wonder Grenelle early However, we do have been doing how to cancer. As we have the figures, we have I drink whisky, I only drink. Your bear. Heineken son of a bitch was actual. There
Why are you I think? I like bed, the ITA kinda needs lagoons cause, I don't know, maybe we'd infused beer reliable. I think that data factors need to lose all these gains by large. Actually, I've never smoke arrived other experimented with it. When I was younger, it never did anything to me still some ice dismissed whilst whisky put ice and my whisky, but you get some glasses, then Jimmy hilarious, you're, very specific with you Those well let it not all that specific when it comes to whisky obey for that matter, and neither do I mean I- why are you not each sauntering Heineken you gotta be, is now behind it delicious fear advocate is refreshing. Look like when you call someone's research descriptive, it's a euphemism for not worth much
instant, refreshing, meaning is a cold beverage, but it's not. It doesn't have the stout taste that you enjoy. It has the function of water. Right or lemonade or something along those lines frowned upon it is in the anti aging community to be a person drinks as much as you do everywhere. The edge community knows me, and I know that I don't drink to access for myself. They know that what I drank, if you know what works for me this, which was really back and look at it in its pronounced, I said: look after them and for the ambulance you fucked it up. Jane is deeper further. It's very. Have you ever Buffalo trace? That's! Ok! Ok, together these about him so says you Buffalo traces, American! That's what my pay, our people worth. What what? What? What
we'll get pissed off with you ass. If in any of the eight community, I am not frowned upon it. I'd rather than I do I do, but everyone says that will be done is out there who will frown on you fat, but if you're on four. Oh, that's all that tastes like Milk is one of those that smoking is a smoky out of pity. Westgate, it's really nice. It's very smoky, interesting popular restaurants. Another tight! That's! Why doesn't sound? I prefer the poplar trees for this It's weird though it tastes like like it's made with smoke like some. How is it is it pity, is that research, but that's the way of life, of the wooden avenues. Albanus drinking for well of course depends on whether you drink too much and and too much different amount for different people. If you think, within year, limit fiend. I have you drink enough of that. Gotta hung over them.
Running. I want awake than you definitely drinking too much. Let them I had I know about to be when I was a teenager. Olga is keep a gaunt and jig lots water. I don't actually vehicle that my daughter, really God, you're you're, defying all the rules, that's confusing Are you still rowing for exercise? Last time? We spoke you're, remember enough what has it: how can anyone so when I used to live in Cambridge and yes, I used to be quiet and expert punting punting, which is this thing in Denmark, said with a stick that I am sorry that you push against the bottom of the river with it found when you describe it like that, like a really clunky activity, but actually it's fantastic, They place me, then, when you get it really, even if not even tiring, ridiculously romantic. Romantic, yes and it's definitely abide magnet
Guph, Vega and good exercise, nothing yet a good for balance and says that basically, we do for exercise are doing Do I used to live in Cambridge anymore. You do the value of the by catch. Would you do know tat? Well, that's where the foundation is by open other, have tenure them, So what is a day to day life what's a normal day for Aubert Grey, Well, there's a million able to spend a ridiculous amount of time on the rise cause. I view being high profile. Member of this community. I view the outreach side of things just educating people on this as an enormously valuable and important part of my work, and it's something you can delegate, because you are comforts, organizes interview for that matter. They want the front man where, on the same side, what we ve been able to hire extremely good Paypal, and so I ve been able to delegate that to a very large extent. Now, in terms of progress, like
what what has to happen for there to be a shift in the the biological age, people where you get actually reverse it. Actually maintain the position there at now for an extended period of time. First of all, whales. That last part, so reversing aging is actually going to be pretty much the result of maintaining the weren't they just you maintain it, because that would mean that you are repairing the damage of aging just exactly at the same speed that the damage is being laid down, which is ridiculous. United on this issue you can only do it a little bit faster than is being laid down, so you don't really think about the main turning part. However, what we need is we need to be able to repair all of the types of damage and because the human body is a very complicated, there are, of course, a lot of different types of damage: further divide and conquer, Fiji any they sought to damage the molecular level say level can buffet
well. Tell you more or less on schedule, however. Well we fix all the others. So, since the beginning, since research foundation, my organization has focused on the most challenging the most difficult types of damage, because basically the easiest one being worked on by the people we have you say we ve. Ourselves up, an independent charity with away thirty were public, follow Mp3, which means that if someone gives us might get a tax break but were independent, which in that we did not alone pair of your government grants or anything like that. We just right for that philanthropy, lowest evocative that if it were not competing, save a lot of other people who have their own ideas about what to do, and, in particular the people who are deciding who wins that competition are not in when you puppet government current terrible. You know you end up.
To basically emphasise really boring low hanging fruit, just in order to have a chance of getting funded, because people want to avoid funding things. That done. Lead to high profile publication soon? You know really ambitious high risk, our wouldst after doesn't get done for that. So we focused on that because other people caught demo sense in that's very unfortunate that doesn't get done outside of what you're trying to get rid, of course, This is a recognised problem. There eight, for example, have tried to address it with words, but with types of grants that are specifically focused on more cutting edge, visionary stuff, but the magnitude. There's Tom S, real tokenism, United left, the one percent of the budget, what's frustrating to you about the state of understanding, repair and understanding the ability to fix things
Well, I'm not. The kind of guy get frustrated very much, and I am always a glass half full cooperation. So for me, what matters most is the fact that the understanding that this is what age in it- and this is how to deal with it- has improved so much He is so I started putting out the idea that this was the way to go after aging twenty years ago before up until then, the only game in town- really was we're gonna make the body run more clean and generate this damage more slowly than it. Naturally, dogs and that's a very big conceptual deference right, so if a surprising that it took me, maybe ten years to really get the damage her approach taken properly seriously by my colleagues in the scientific community, but ten years ago it was taken seriously and in fact, over the past decade, people have been
periodically reinventing the idea and United necessarily a whiff of much of the credit and probably want to happen. I don't care about that. The main thing I don't have to persuade anyone, any more people get it that damage operates at least, if not the way to go at least a very promising. Way to go so really. What happens? Next is convincing people outside the community and there has been enormous progress as welfare when you- and I spoke last five years ago. Really that was the end of the story. I pretty much one the scientific arguments, but still no, it would really listening and then, over the past five years. The huge thing that's happened if the private sector interest in this attack enough so becoming alone. Typically, it's been led by the angel investor types, their state of health of people who are willing to do really high risk firewood stuff, but they announced that we are getting close enough, that this is the next big thing that we will actually have finally genuine rejuvenation medicine in the foreseeable future. How far sample
wow. You know some of it already in clinical trials like what can stuff so, for example, the stems. EL therapy is now being used for aspects of aging with, really clear understanding of how they're going to work. Parkinson's disease is a great example of this wealth of Europe. Is the right way to go in clinical trials having this? the near the lot over the past couple of years, a similar attacks which drugs that selectively kill when uncle finessing cells. So they themselves that hang out in the body in a bad state, whether doing more harm than good that not only are they not doing what, if both through their also for creating nasty staff that damages our neighbourhood, and so jobs have been developed that Similarly, pretty good at getting rid of learning clinical trials were most, and so we don't work work on that area. We basically didn't. I work on that area anymore, hardly any, and we may end not all the couple years from now, just while book and other people, it, and so our money is better span doing this stuff is still at an earlier stage,
bill match in we are able, even for things that are a couple of years behind that, if I were being clinical trials for the error to whip, enable even then to get invested interested so that we can actually spend the protect vow to start up companies and focus on the things that remain. I thought at us. Of course, lots and lots of literally mother way over a hundred other companies. Now that I work with good they're, not spin out from my foundation, but la you're doing closely aligned work until I'm, I'm literally spending programme dial weak on average just making interruption between in Japan. I found, as I thought, of it, found of with with great science and invested he went involve the stem cell therapies fascinate to me, because I have had some personal experience with it. I've had some injuries that occurred with doctors. Cured was stem cells in a remarkable way were at the point where
I I was told that I need shoulder surgery and at a large, rotate or cuff tear and it's gone. I know it's incredible to me, but it's not really. What I'm talking about. That's gone, really. Well you time on neurodegenerative diseases, so it was a big difference, is not a fairly brain worth anything else. What I'm saying is that what you got was using stem cells to treat an acute injury to tat and that's what stem cell therapies have been developed, the most for so far shown most promised for, but now we're getting to the point where we are in a position to use them to address certain aspects of aging, in other words, certain aspects of low, steady, progressive decline that happened throughout life to intervene issues well, not necessarily intravenous. So let me talk about the Parkinson's disease case and a bit more detail. So what Parkinson's disease, if driven by is the loss of a particular type of neurons, focusing
right and left the different types of neurons, but once I called a dope a menagerie neuron and they exist just one specific, very small part of the Branco, the substantial Niagara, so it other than your own site. Well, because they do a lot of work. Basically, they die at a much more rapid rate than other types of neurons. So we had all this weird, maybe A quarter of those neurons tat we had when we were young adults haven't got. By old age. That's ok! That without amount the margin of error is tolerable in the system. It just doesn't have never comes a consequence, but of course, as we thing an aging. Some people have the pro accumulated faster than others, and some people by old age will have less maybe three quarters of that of religion urine, and that is what gives you back into the city. So what is them cell therapy? If you think about it, what is basically put cells into the body that have been programmes have been cutting, have been developed into the right
date in lab, so that they know what to do when you inject them, they know like to divide and to then transform themselves to differentiate into the right kind of other thought. So what have been developed a document edging precursor south themselves that know how to Deb, alleging Europe and other injected into this one place of abstention IRA, and they do what they do, nothing so their injected right into the brain attract. So actually, this was first tried more than twenty. Five years ago there was a clinical trial, Sweden, because people knew what bugs what was the victim rising Parkinson's disease, so the needle short work, of course back, then we knew almost nothing about how to manipulate stem cells in the laboratory. So what they did was these people they took self for. They write part of the brain of a boy fate of his right and they just rejected them.
This was enormously speculative because you know, first of all, the brain of an abortive fate is, it very put very, have had highly developed at all right and so just taking the right fell from kind. The right place with hidden and sure enough. Almost all the time there was no effect, because you know they didn't get the right kind of some. So, but occasionally It worked. Occasionally patients got lucky and got some of the right kind of them. How often well, I think, the way single digit number in the tree in the clinical trial it without, like maybe fearful, but the question was how good was the effect when the with any effect at all, and the answer was after we call for a couple years ago. There was actually a retrospective written by the group, and it did this clinical trial and it was written specifically about the first responded, the footpath new really got lucky
bunny. Well, then, it was written on the on the occasion of the twenty Fiveth anniversary of that person being created will happen with that person. Was they retreated once just one injection and pockets symptoms went away so well that the person was taken off their prime indication of the standard medication for Buckskins called L Darpa, which is a precursor molecule. The dopamine, though, just ignore it again. No symptoms, symptoms gradually cycling back after fifteen years sitting at the notion plutonium one inject. Why that about a girl? You can get so of course, now that we know so much about how to manipulate themselves before we reject them and therefore how to inject the right kind of Central Europe, people very optimistic about whether a clinical trials already ongoing right now, that's fascinating. So what's really interesting to me, is that during the time this, what person at this one Jackson the rate of progress that the amount of understanding of how to manipulate these cells and make them exact, which one is increased,
well, that's right probably shall still increasing considerably that's right and for what I was saying about way. How, since research foundation, is having increasingly away from bothering welcomes unseen Olympics book? Another people doing it that was already true. When we started the foundation in respect of stem cells, we didn't to everyone of northern olympic work is already being done by the people. So, where are they are right now we're here? Where are you in terms of like, let's, was just focus on Parkinson's disease, so the clinical trials are invite one early stage, we won't know anything really good for another year, maybe maybe two years, but you know what it's not. If I get one to others, the several groups around the world that are focused on their some of them are haven't started the trolley ever there about two, and so in a way that the level of that that give you sent to the level of optimism of the specialist area. That's very exciting you! So you, when you look at your future at fifty seven years old and you think of yourself, it
seventy seven give you thank you and to be the same food and well, if you're, a guess and although I feel that I have to come back to what I said about this being a divide and conquer problem, and the fact that we need to figure out things in order to really get the that that the proper without intended violent glade. Now that means that any speculation but I may make about the time frame for when we get there is speculation about the most difficult part of the problem and left for its part is back into because the metaphorical matter at the earliest stage, and therefore this sum the more opportunity for things to go wrong between now and then ass, big so well. I am asked to give a timeframe estimate on this. I always make sure to emphasise that it probabilistic That's what I'm giving you is a timeframe for when I think we have a fifty fifty chance of getting a decisive level of comprehensive, notably fair. At the moment. That number is seventeen years now, that's very specific way
oh yeah yeah I mean, but the thing is what matters is how that number is changed over the type of time. So I first started giving timeframe predictions about fifteen sixteen years ago about that twenty five years to come down by eight years in sixteen which everybody is right, but here to be good news, for the Good NEWS is that it hardly another tool for the first then re is it was like I would say, YAP. Five years ago I was still saying twenty to twenty one years. So it's been it haven't been haven't been flipping any further for a little while and the reason why I think the spade up to parity is because the the thing that with slowing it down before was lack of funding beforehand
I was always saying. This is how fast the science allows the problem to be solved, but the signs only allow the problem to be solved if the funds can be done, and that requires ultimately biomedical research is inherently expensive and we are just not able to pull in As much money as we need for this is interesting, because it seems that that would be something that most people have a vested interest in fun. You don't say sure over the past five years, dimension that things have become in vestibule. Things changed a lot, every time we end up being able to spend a project out from our lab into a private company, another didn't get put on its budget like overnight, just because it so much easier to get people to right jack if they think, with a chance, even a really small chance that look at my back in spades some time later. You know
I guess that's what you would expect, but yeah I mean, of course. The other thing that we always up against is the mindset that people have got into about aging. That led me to get into full if millennia, that we have been unable to do anything about it all have any prospect of doing anything about it. I've itunes, it you know what you gonna, do you ve got this terrible got everything. That's gonna happen to you in the distant future and you can do anything about it. So you're gonna put it out of your mind. You not gonna, spend you don't want to spend your life being preoccupied by table to find some way to like not think about it and get on with your miserably short life, and I make the best of it and, of course, the weather we can do. That is by somehow denied from tricking oneself into denying that this is such a big deal. You know that by pretending, for example, that it not really lie like a medical problem at all like an like, inevitable and universal unnatural
alternatively, sang work. Maybe we could fix it if we turn to you, but it would be a bad thing that eighteen, you some kind of blessing in disguise world at eight, announce that we're all this stuff from about their well. We, but all the people how we pay the pension, the went excitedly forever when it pouring in which I have to say. And my whole life contending with how'd, he said I get over the dictator's living forever one well, you know Last time I looked dictator with very high on the league table of risky jobs dictators of debating the furthest. Furthermore, the ones that do diverging that into a vulgar life s accession in advance anyway, so it's as if they were already immortal, so I mean come on the percentage of dictators versus the percentage of regular people, so incredibly small to not cure aging, because of dictators seems like the dumbest idea ever it. Why are you go I mean, but people if they put lily, you know. Yet. This is what people do. They will come up with some raven. Why? I think is blessing in disguise
then they will infinitely switch off their brains for fear of actually coming up with a reputation of that region or even the ass. You have become romantic aspects of aging and weird ones. Right now, the inevitable like, though it's fine, it's wonderful, conform to its essentially a disease that we all get yeah. I'm it'll have to be very careful with the wood to see how some people out for, if I don't think now, yes, on which I have been a great friend of my fellow he is and where we are, we have a very similar attitude.
Tell you no authority without much of it, and so we tend to push the boundary the better. This inner ends somewhat different life. They here actually hit. I hit view of cooling aging a disease a bit different from my he's more comfortable with it. I tend to fail. That's the problem, the problem with coordinating a disease, which is that it makes it sound like it, something that can be cured with one of therapy like lucky no infection which isn't which it isn't it's affright effect of being alive, and as such it something that you know you can repair you could stave off, but you have to do it periodically, because the damage is gonna continue to be created, and you know the reason why that's important is that it determines. What kind of
What kind of medicine we look for a lot of Alzheimer's research, for example, if I live with a most about time, as we have been predicated on this kind of mistake on the idea that if we condemn cure out fires they, yet I thought I would say that, actually it's not that the word disease, if used too narrowly and should be broadened to include aging rather sad whereat, that the word divisions to broadly and should be narrowed so as not to include things like our time is that
actually bought debating gray the difference between the progressive chronic conditions like Alzheimer's, that we called evasive and the ones that we don't like in a loss of muscle declined the immune system or whatever you know, the only difference is semantic, some of them either by participating, not just some of them are ones that we ve chosen to give disease like names to what would you call aging, if you don't call disease likely medical problem? That's that's free, pure and in terms of potential future treatments. Stem cell seem to be very promising Are there other competing treatments that you think
equally promising- or are you sure, but they're, not competing so and so, and I said because this is dividing conquer problem with a bunch of different types of damage, all of which we need to fix. Then we need to look at the Wharf Exeter available for each individual type. So what stem cell to that effect is so love without a dying and are not being what medically replaced in the body by fell. Division. Have you personal experience and stem cell therapy? I haven't done anything of four of any kind yet, but of course you know I'm paying attention near our fate, of course, the white man. Dr aging, is that because progressive and because it only inadequately functional decline after a certain point that a trade off that when we have to keep in mind in terms of timing of the therapy between how badly we need fate and how rapidly the quality of the therapy is improving. Sir, if I take a stem cell therapy now, then the chance that
bad. For me, for whatever is worth ten years on the road I will still, I would have needed it for those ten years data, the rudder, mister, We need a bit more but that they will. It will have benefited from ten years more research environment, so you're, the guy a cautious patron OSHA, I mean, I don't think anybody wants to be the first patient amen I'll, be the first. I am Doing a bunch of stem cell therapies. Well, do intravenous stem cell therapies to Russia, but I mean the point: is you you want the first to do anything out for sure so. We have owned into developing, so Philippic do not compete with themselves because in living for that to a different thing to effect a different type of damage, namely the accumulation of these bad, fell right and then you ve gotta, have now count of Araby. You gotta have therapies. Remove molecular waste products through inside felt a couple of start up. Companies of have to doing that. You gotta remove waste products from outside the cell
for example, so people obviously immune system today that you ve got a repair dna in in the mighty Cumbria. These special about the fell it do the chemistry of breathing, a bunch of different thing. We have to do and We have good news- and I told you earlier on that been no real change over the past year yet in our understanding of what the problem is, that of met them also been no real need change, preferred approaches to each of two to each of the diamond repair technologies we haven't had. We haven't, found bad news. That said, oh dear, this potential approach affecting this particular type of damage, isn't gonna work for this new reason that we didn't know before. Therefore, we have to but again and think of a new one hasn't happened either. That's Excellenza just essentially refining the procedures. Are the guardians actually implementing the man's Is this. Is this something new still truly enjoy doing. I wouldn't. I will enjoy doing now,
really. I mean I enjoy lifeline judge us. You know staring sky from my hot tub, just but I want to carry on doing it roman dying instead, so almost movement it's an investment but also mean it's obviously some sort of an intellectual to read out a humanitarian dispute episode. I mean some people view intellectual, that I really fail of others. Ever since I was a young kid. I have wanted to spend my life, making a difference to the world, improving the quality and, of course, in disguise, quantity of life of humanity and I've got on just one of those incredibly lucky Paypal open to end up in the position of eventually leading they crusade to do that in the biggest possible. Why so? This is,
and they you felt compelled to do from really early age, not the specific think. So what actually happened was that as a teenager, having pretty much decided is why? Why do with my life? The first thing I did what I got into US official, intelligent traffic and the reason that happened with, because we have a teenage right. I had a programming I found that was pretty damn good and I thought well. One of the big problems in the world is the problem of work. The fact that people have spent so much of their time doing stuff. They would not do enough, they were being paid for it and therefore we need more automation. So I welcome that cause. I'm good at it had no reason at that time to believe elaborate can be any good bye Japan, but specifically that particularly- and there were other people who are particularly gonna in I had made the mistaken but absolute assumption. That everybody will isolating was by far the world's biggest problem, and therefore biologists would be working on in guarding away and forty two here much, but hey really hard problem. So that's not surprise. So it wasn t my late twentieth that I found out that I was wrong
happened was that I met. I married a biologist life. Anyone actually who was for professor at that time it using San Diego she was in England Sabbatical end, through her. I not only let alone biology just by accident over the dense able by also found out gradually that's she wasn't interesting aging. I just kind of it had occurred to me. If I didn't come up in conversation, life began to notice It wasn't coming up in conversation, start asking questions say things like you know. Well I mean like it's just decay, isn't it and, I would say well yeah, but so what and she said well, I mean You're not gonna, learn a fundamental truth about the universe from studying decay, and I would say: well that's true, yes, but but but it's bad for you and she would say, but that's not my problem I would say well kind of is, and that would be helpful We would have a get servant
I can't two hundred, they wouldn't have her, of course, with all the other biology. If I was meeting as history, close mindedness? Well, you know I'd say people have had to find ways not to think about age, ass, and so eventually I thought. Well, that's just what do I have addressed, which failed? I happened to have inveigled myself into a position where switching filled with something I was able to do. I had a very undermining job at the University of Cambridge. Doing bioinformatics wit Allow me to do my artificial intelligence for search in my spare time. I was being paid well enough and you know I had access the investor facilities, nor that so all I need to do is re purpose must better, and he knows that pay my way to go to comfort, you gonna go back there. Nobody knew me- and I wasn't be invited and untidy and pretty well. I quite well received stuff, and so I became quite well respected in the field very quickly.
And for the first five years that with armed with happening could I was basically harm in that within five years in in the year, two thousand, Had this kind of Eureka moment that damage repair with the way to go inside talking about what the impact, the Bay and people side to think I'd gone completely crazy and it took a little while for people to come around. So when you, when you that at an early age you felt compelled to try to help people like well, but was that so actually happen with, It was all down to my mother's desire for me to practise the piano. I hate she wasn't. A public opinion self bird. She wanted me to learn how to back up again and she will issue but pressure omitted package at the time I was resistance. But somehow or other my had already instil in me, a sense of introspection desire to understand why I thought, when I thought someone actually
I too think about why I didn't want to play the piano, and it took very little time for me to realise that the fundamental reason I didn't want to spend so much time. Topping awareness thing was that the best case scenario outcome of this would be that I would become a good penis. And that was just not good enough over we're already lots of other good, been so high would not be. You know, contributing significantly to the quality of life of mankind by becoming just another one additional european us right. So if it well, I wonder because of course it with a young with gradual is that how you that, for me, eight or nine so open? a few years- and I say this general idea that I read playing the piano with with time crystallize into the understanding with the architectural techie that I wanted make a difference to the world, and so that's how I buy toys. Fifteen with thy programming in of just how do the rest?
that's an interesting mapping out of your future? nine years old, recognise you're, not going to make a significant contribution to the world by doing something. Other people have already done. Really interesting way to look at the where we you, nine. I have a nine year old daughter. I can't imagine her thinking like that. Only when I started working actually ATLAS Bioinformatics Project that I mentioned. I can I had a lot of exposure to a lot of top flight biologists and It turned out that were fields that would just fashionable right that lots of top biologists would be competing vociferously with each other to make the next advancing one particular narrow, narrow area that was just very fashionable. And other areas would be completely neglected. I thought going on here, why are they smart people choosing to do something but minimized
the likelihood that it will have an impact, in other words, basically, whatever whatever they find out didn't much. They themselves didn't matter at all, because they could have been hit by truckload on forming a big effort, and someone else would have found out the exact same thing. Ten minutes later, they will make no difference. I never understood I fail to understand it. So you ve always felt compelled to make a difference, there's something your mother and still in use something ages had as again. I don't really think my mother and still in May. I think the introspection was like if you ask me how she did that, have no idea, but Somehow but now I think we, but to make a different who just info. They can mean it. I just realized that the result of introspection when you look back at that now that's gonna, be an interesting course Were you recognized at a very young age that you wanted,
make some sort of a difference, but that didn't knowing that you would have that epiphany at a young age when it comes to like being a penis or they're doing something. That's gonna significantly impact people. It is now the standard path that many people are gone, it's a very interesting way to set up your life. Well, I wouldn't say that when I thought I had intentions, but if we look at how I got from that a enormous enormous amount of it was just share luck. I mean you know fast people's lives right exactly so I would say you know I had a hope. General aspiration, but I would say that I'm just incredibly privileged to have been able to reach the pinnacle of my chosen failed of endeavour
Hardly anyone can say that. Yes, now that, as you are also well, you fit the part till you're, a weirdo you know, I mean you know, you're aware, when suddenly you know everything, I say that, with all due respect caught up in a compliment as well. Of course, it is definitely is definitely difficult to make a difference in the world if you are following the role and so on, I am always instinctively looking for ways to do things that other people might have overlapped, I mean even trivial things that frustrates you about this pursuit, I'm no easily frustrated kind of guy. I mean, of course sometimes it gets too. Haswell tough things are going. How resistant people are rational. The resistance is You know I've I've already from some I've already said. You understand that I am really sympathetic to
morality in this regard, but I understand that most people, just in the psychological burden of the possible the prospect of physiological decline, is so enormous that I got no choice. Lemme. Yes, and you know some people fail. Why don't I fucked logically stronger whatever and like a bite the bullet and actually work on s? Leave them, though it very, very long haul, but some people from that doesn't mean they are no more than that. I left deserving of the benefits it's a very strange thing where you put on intellectual blunders and they're talking about aging and dying- and it is very weird if you have heated actions with other intellectuals about this, because I would imagine overtime overtime. I mean the hope and came to me first when I was a cambric actually an underground. That was some time before night. He ate it. So when I was in my first year, forty nine eighty two
Very broaching estate hypnotists producer organisations, yes, okay, so this guy we ve got an audience of a few hundred people, all of us in Cumbria, undergraduates and so the first step, if you know, do some stuff that gets some particularly amenable people into light tranche, any Brenda fear them up on stage and starts to go further right. So there is one particular by the share that stuck in my mind, one I was brought up and got into a really really take France, and then the next step was that the hidden says ok. This is actually a right elbow on the left of fish, which they got no elaboration of the The implication for lift a thing is going to present a completely completely implicitly believe this thing at and then he said right, I would like you place to touch
right elbow with your left, forefinger and so, of course, that meddling in writing- and I couldn't with funny in and of itself, but that wasn't look good address what happened next, with the key thing, the emphasis as a cake of stopped now and then I stopped analysis and says you couldn't get you and the guy's not. And then she said. Why not ask the guy too, blame. Why couldn't an here if the coup de, because what happens? If I give a complete, ITALY, unhesitating, lucid grammatically, correct explanation for why couldn't debts and the expedition, Of course, we have a whole and the size of Canada, but the fact is that I want it. He'll just be sitting there with a straight face
Just doing this and his friends are on the move, account go to fry higher q, highly respect, reek of intellectual grow food for one for their own, intellect and rationality, and rolling in the aisles and the guy unaffected. When I started to have these discussions with Paypal about aging inside to find out that Paypal make these unbelievable argument in favour of it in a iconic? I call it the pro aging trance and it was based on the experience from my you yeah voice, said the people. If there was a pill that you can take, would stop all aging all deterioration of diseases. You beef will not take it. You'd be a fool: did you want to suffer the idea that romantic. If it was a rare thing that people aged a very rare
we would look at it with great sadness at some was afflicted this aging, we saw someone hunched over. With severe arthritis and osteoporosis and did duration of the joints and decaying of the cognitive function and dont know where they are, who they are we'd, be so sad, but instead we think of it, as I call his ninety had a good life, that's exactly rights, not just whether everyone gets. It is the fact that one gets in a more or less the same age promoted leg, so it's considered to be the level and just yes, absolutely people doing, we'd better twenty percent better than average There were no happy is there any concern or any thought whatsoever to the idea of eggs, ass her bathing overpopulation of close, this is legitimate question, the things frustrating to me, and I ve been answering his. The twenty eight will still illicit kill dummies. That's a good move right!
we are, of course a large part of the reason. Why is difficult to get their real onto the cross is because so much fiction has perfection has been written, adequate movies, giving romances and making a dramatic element out of it. Now whether it runner in time or any of the movie yearly I'll get it wrong all make it as if effects that they can reinforce the privilege and grants right, then, if life would be even worse, if we had no aging gets up with real onto the real answer, very straightforward. It simply that other technologies that are coming along already and will be established while establishing ubiquitous before we get this to happen, are going to solve the problem because they will increase the carrying capacity of the planet
remember that, the reason why we have too many people today and we ve got environmental consequences is not because of lack of space. It's because of the amount of pollution that the average person generate. Specifically, of course, the biggest thing being pumping carbon into the atmosphere but coffee. I, whether it plastics and what we ve got solar and wind energy. Now that are completely, exploiting and they're gonna completely replace fossil fuels, and we there without pay but even having to wake up and realise that climate change is actually quite an urgent problem. We got a simply because the technology got to be good enough, that production over kilowatt hour of of energy, that we with a renewable energy MAC mechanisms and Israel fossil, not guess. I've also aggregate
so out of which will meet. You know within not very long is gonna, be both tastier on five April than regular meat and the amount of space we're gonna say if not let alone the amount of may find that we're not gonna, be generating. If God, I have an idea, They say it's gonna be tastier view, of course, How so well we? How would it be popular if it were not tastier, tasty earth no, sir, would have to be tastier after ITALY would be good, but totally it would be better. I guess I'm going to suggest that you know that. Don't treat desalination, those plastic eating bacteria, USA, things are coming, and so, There is no way that one can make a realistic plausible argument that denies that the carrying capacity of the planet will rise far faster. Than the population. Are we don't even to a certain extent we don't even need to take into account other things like the fact that fetters,
whoever coming down everywhere and that once you can live a very long time that Bobby to come down even further, because people who are now children, delay having decades by five years will be able to lay having them by fifty is Jesus dear. That's him optimistic per cent. But the ocean of football. Let me say what I think about the word optimism, because I know that you are doing this, but a lot of people when they talk to me and call me an optimist. They actually means lemon over optimistic when they call themselves a realist. I mean that their pessimists, so, but but anyway, about the ocean. Of course. What's the difference, you know they certainly leaves a lot to do one vapor, Right now, of course, is the ocean is storing letter carbon and releasing a lot of its warming up. So we haven't had fixed that as well, but it's part of the same problem: you neither less carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, the less and less of a problem that is
direct carbon removal from the atmosphere in technology that absolutely burgeoning now and direct carbon. Capture from the ocean things to be something that equally plausible lights of the different. Optimistic in terms of the ability to clean up the ocean? I've had boy onslaught on a couple times. Beware of him do his devices that is created to remove plastics and other garbage from the ocean. My concern is wild fish. The depletion of the fish populations is an unprecedented rate and it seems to be where somewhere in the neighbourhood of fifty years away from a catastrophic complete collapse of wild fisheries will write. This is again a problem that can be fixed by technology. United can make got official red meat when my God of Israel fish, while the wooden service. That would be good that we can have
official fish, but that would necessarily make that popular Jen rebound. We would have to make large steps to try to bring back the equilibrium of the ocean. Let's not Clare, I mean ass. Not there is no clear now I mean a lot most of advanced. At any rate, it is not an area and expert aside IRAN, but most of the survey depletion of populations of specific fish fish species are because the fishing yet other fishing. So if we re not doing overfishing were making fish elsewhere, land, while I'm sure a lot of his being done by the United States, but I'm sure and great Britain and a lot of first world cups but I'm sure, love and is also being done by countries that can afford to make this artificial fish or don't the access to it, or, at least in the time, here that it's gonna take for these fisheries rebound its, it did
talk to people that have an understanding of wildlife in the ocean. They say it's a desperate time and it's a desperate that is not really being recognised by the general population, because they can still get sushi. They can still get halibut at the local market, but that, if you talk to fishermen fisherman who took the wildlife biologists that arose studying levels are like. This is nearing a point of no return I wouldn't dispute that I think it's urgent, but all that race as it wishes investing more in the development of these new technologies, that will hasten VM abilities and if there were even bother with wild fish is sick. I mean it they can make artificial me. Wonderful people really get an artificial fishes. Well, if you wanna- and I guess but some of them are not gonna make the Kurt Lechner ones get an artificial to lop when something good, not yet so they may market adder should why didn't count lobby of them, but like too
people like the name. I guess I'm I'm really optimistic about artificial me. I mean it seems that there at one point times are quarter million dollars for a hamburger, and now they ve got it down to a point where you can. Actually make an animal meat product that does not. Come from an animal die, a very close to be able to make this in a mass marketed way. That's interesting! I'm excited about that. Very interesting and I'm excited about what you're saying that I think people think about over population. One things that you should take into consideration. Is that, as populations increase in places urbanize the actual birth rate goes down to the point. Where this is like Japan is actually concerned that they're not having of children and, of course it is driven by. Smart, young, female education, emancipation,
this boy, if you look at the largest country in the world, the largest dozen countries in the world, the only one that has really high for direct sale. If, my dear, if you exclude Sub Saharan Africa, it's better a completely self problem, Really, Niger is only one big outlet, the country, if you would not expect like Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, in over two zero, if down below three now real, it's interesting, so their population will level out over the next few decades? Well, yeah you, because we certainly need I still declining employment in Europe, but often youth FE The only reason why China's, But if you re lucky because of the one China policy, which of course they have now discontinue precisely because of problems like the F B, I mean other kind- is where a little bit behind the one, China policy did certainly accelerate the process, but if you have a brother, or Indonesia or any other country, or face the same phenomenon. Plummeting. Have you thought about
what the future looks like when people lived there for five hundred years old, like how, first of all how wise will people? that's, really interesting, as so. Ok, so his head, a really important thing that I want to get across when we think about longevity. Well, actually, three things are worth first of all, want gravity is a side effect of health right so a huge amount of their so called debate that govern about the desirability of all just go the way when you remember the people actually quite like being healthy, but in terms of how the world will be, which have question last with two questions here. One question is how we will actually be on this question how well people in the net and expect the World Bank and the reason why those two questions which are important to distinguish is because
of how the war will actually be is very, obviously completely unanswerable. Even if we look fifty in the future, I made it up fifty at a guy right. How much of what we have today would have been predicted, completely different and certainly intend to longevity. You know where they could be getting older one year per year, who won't action Bay and a five hour. You, dear oh paypal for another four hundred years, really of what made it now. I don't know what you're gonna be able to do. We will be able to change the patent changed the right of the passage of time. If my- but I understand we sang right but expectation is a completely different thing and hid. Why that matters, there's gonna become appoint. There's gotta come point where people in general, with general manuscript, start I realise that there are probably going to level for a long time because they're not gonna just get progressively sector as they get older and
lots of other reasons are gonna. Just why they're gonna live long time like we're gonna, have self driving cars that pretty much eliminate road accidents are the guiding too wants alone. Different things than what they wanted when they thought they were. Gonna live only flat along the parents. The guy was very different pension plans, very different life insurance, health insurance, very little inheritance arrangements, and these a huge big ticket item strike that basically drive for global action.
Me suppose he makers and make it around the world had time well better, be ready for that shift in public expectation of how long ago live right. Yes, now, therefore, it is absolutely critical to estimate and to communicate the estimate of how soon that shift in public expectation is going to occur, which means how, but what events have to happen? How much progress needs to happen in order for that, and also in order to cause that shift now. This is where I am terrified because I think it's gonna happen really said I think it could easily happen in the next three to five years and that when it does happen, it's gonna happen incredibly suddenly.
Here's the sequence of events that I think is gonna happen, step one. Going to have sufficient progress in the laboratory or the clinic that most of my scientific colleagues are going to be willing to come out and say more or less yeah over to grab it right all along, I gotta say you're, very excited about that now on terrified and I'm gonna tell you I alone little, I mean I know I have been a recognition of November, but together Gonna they're gonna come on it's only a matter of time before we likeness aging thing now. What are you feel happen. Next year, media guy right, everything's gonna happen
I want you are the one I. What do you think? I'm right I didn't actually happened. Is that real opinion for most people, like you, people like Upper Winfrey are going to hear that being said and written in the media and they're gonna say oh shit. This is actually gonna happen. And they're gonna, safer air and the guy not only to safe for what their opinions but they're gonna say what they think people ought to do in particular, gonna, say oh look, you know, let's factually would if it only amount of time the if we lose for a proper money? I mean I really mean a proper one. Aging, not just like the Warren cancer was lots of money a bit of a moral obligation to make it less time. If we can so my fans, Is that what happened the followed, day. It's gonna becoming able to get elected unless you have a manifesto commitment to have a word
an aging throw proper money? That I mean I really mean a proper one aging, not just like the warrant. Cancer was lots of money, not actually the research, but also to front lead over the invest, the infrastructure, and you know, training of medical personnel and fun and everyone's gonna like the world. The like you, ve got to make that switch are dismantled of expectation black at once, so it's gonna be ridiculously sudden once happened, and the first step is going to be that shift in What my colleagues in the barge aren't, you community feel able to say on camera and update now. Therefore, the question is: what amount of progress is gonna be required for that now here's the thing. There are very many of us if a small filled the number of people at the top of the failed. Who actually talk to the media quite a bit if a dozen maximum was made
David. You ve had on the show this very few others. We all know each other. Where organised that we know exactly where I you know what they drivers? Are they. Number one reason why MIKE don't already say what I say is funding the fact that, unlike me, those people are reliant for most of the money that driver refer on peer, reviewed government money, government grants and they just won't get them if it's possible to accuse those accuse them of saying a response,
The whole thing for the media, things that get people's hopes up unduly met this. Hardly a living out of nowhere near enough might have less than ten percent of the necessary money to fund research. The moment to the committees that decide who get mine, who doesn't always desperately scouting around the reasons to say. No, that can be justified and saying. Oh, this guy says a response, but thanks to the media is totally fail. Way to say no right. So what so this is. This is the problem. That is why colleagues have to be really pretty come urgently. Even David is probably the person out of my colleagues who pushes the envelope as much as possible out of people who have regular faculty provision. But you know, he's just written a book which I say you haven't yourself gold, you know, why we age and why we don't have to it. He could not
I've written that book with that title five years ago and kept his job. While so you know because it how much have to check and actually is not very much. You know that about the level of attention here between. On the one hand, not funny things that can be characterized irresponsible, but on the other has not saying things could be carried truck driver, simply untrue. So the more progress is made in the laboratory, not even in the clinic. With my right into actually no rejuvenating them. Making them live longer with treatments that were given to those life when they were already in middle age them about it has made. You know that impossible, it's gonna be to carry on being pessimistic and refusing to to make time predilections or anything like that. So there's a almost have forced pessimism, curse created by this town, correct They will. You say many citizens and in that, once it does get to the point where,
this is undeniable. This is peer of you'd proven established science and all So implemented by this is that can be at scale distributed. Worldwide yeah things going everywhere, so people are already people, obviously still gonna, be saying it can't be done in humans. You know I got really be done until the captain had just in the same way that I've had before any other pioneering technology throughout history. But what matters is what the centre of gravity of expert least slated expert opinions. It is a really really Poland. Subject? I mean it. It is funny how but you're saying ring so true that academics and intellectuals have to be cautious about talking even what is potentially possible. Though in private. They problem
We are more than aware that there is just a few steps to go before this get sentiment, and then we see really care struck. Me really is spectacular, rather changes not saying that all of us absolutely agree on hundreds of everything in the science Finally, I would say that slightly on the optimistic end of the spectrum of expert opinion. Yeah. My colleagues are not all that far behind in intensive what they would set a time printer what you're saying in terms of people discussing in the media makes absolute sense to me that, as soon as that that Pandora's box gets opened, then people are going to be look to establish clinics everywhere, and it could be very strange will, even if, even if, some, even if none of these things are not yet available for clinical use, even if some of them are still at the beginning of the clinical trial profession we're still be ten or fifteen years away from the room, a guy. You know that Toby enough to trigger this pandemonium to that's what
policymakers decision makers in everywhere government government in Cape aspect of industry need to act. I call it the anticipation and it'll be have already thought through and prepared for this change in public my expectation! How am I gonna live so using this, one day will be a gigantic public issue in terms of elected rubber, additives that they they're gonna need to have some sort of an anti aging policy that right and the switch from essentially Situation in normal beneficial to this completely new world will be ridiculously sudden. That'll happen in a week and you think one of the motivating factor will be the price of health care that the argument would be part of our ears. You with health care and the incredible of money that needs to be spent on, Alas, I hospital rising peace. What people in treating them with diseases, we could eliminate them,
Oh yeah, I've heard bottom it the most. When you talk to any any people, an elected representative anyway, of very persuasion about the aging question, then the immediate knee jerk reaction is always, oh god. We definitely want to fix that. How would we pay the pension? Can they obviously than if the economy, stupid, still Asia and South Africa Thematic and if you're not gonna, be able to get away with that kind of thinking anymore. It's going to have to be a case of redesigning a large number of really big part, The economy from the ground up phosphates, In places like where you live in England or used, where you're from rather in England, where they have socialist medicine, the enormous cost of that would be decreased Lydia tonight we're healthy it's! It's got nothing to do with private with socialist knows in budgetary matters, in the U S and the UK and everywhere else
overwhelming majority of medical expenditure is on the health problems of the elderly, which will go away of costly medicine that makes our problem go away, if not gonna be free domain to produce and to deliver. So, but eventually, though it here, but that actually only a minority of the economic benefit, the real economic benefit comes from the indirect costs, first of all, the fact that the care of the elderly are gonna be more productive than having to spend time looking out an effect parents and lay thick that, but also the huge thing that the algorithms are also still going to be able bodied and therefore in a position to compete. To contribute wealth that right now that doesn't necessarily mean anything to do with the retirement age. This comes back to
Another aspect of the interaction between emerging technologies. So, of course, we ve got automation coming about work and any other people do right. We're making huge progress in artificial intelligence and most people. Even conservative, protect commentators say that most of the jobs that existed Agatha Begone twenty years from now we say: what do you think about it? We well so no one can be completely unable to. Continue this system over an economy based on full employment, and it happened in the industrial revolution We got away with it by inventing and into a new factor in other third sector that reply. Foliage, people didn't have any more in manufacturing and agriculture with something happened this time, it's not gonna happen You know how many people you need in the entertainment industry that we got you from of so we're going to have a different. But people after all. Thinking about that with things like you are universal basic income tax, which is excellent,
early blunt instrument, just a starting point, but you know that kind of thing is going to have a going to happen. I can totally imagine a situation in which, as you know, the report here from now work something like national, fair. They cease to be yet where you'd net. What would you when you are young and insignificant? You do a bit of a few years of actual work, but that means that the Junta to pensions is ridiculous. Like about so we gonna gas policymakers out of that mindset and again to think in more global terms about the health benefits in the benefit to quality of life. Everybody, and so it is funny that work or the concept of work is sort of inexorably connected to society. To the point we think you have to work. In the meanwhile. People lived for hundreds of thousands of years without even the concept of that, and I got a place will you go where they give you gold coins and at all right
Exactly I mean, of course we do. To have something that something funny Little fulfils coming to. Do you find fulfilling Thus the argument for universal basic income right. The argument against it is human nature that people need to be motivated and they need something to sort of guide them towards excellence. Much I gave the everything that needs to be better education. You got something that we could spend the money on, that we say from having to glass, half full guy. Well, don't know anybody well educated, who gets bored I agree with you or anybody. Exposed. Interesting things are so many things in the world I mean. If I had, I would love to live five different lives, concurrently, I'd love to the plan. I would I wouldn't I would love to have to pick your current. They climbed into the glaciers just dive into the lake. I would love to have different lives, because if so many different things, and I would have loved to pursue. Well, you got that
early rang, triangular them sequentially instead, yet was eventually be fun. I'm it would be really interesting to take up a whole new career at seventy. You know and so three to five year timeline. What what makes you think that, three to five years from now, when all this stuff all take place? What could it subject to its based on aggregating a whole bunch of different areas of research, but of course, unfairly well informed about what research can even how rapidly moving in a Europe different areas. And so just you know just I'm putting all that together in my head, and I'm saying how are we going to be able to take my newly level? two and a half years and nothing whatsoever to them until they were, and them to on average, live to for instead of two and a half right now, if you want out, of course,
extra years would be healthier because to be rejuvenation the mice right. So I believe that that would be sufficient. Anyway, that's actually a little bit conservative, I think a less dramatic breakthrough. That might be enough to switch most of my colleagues over the over the fence, but I think that would definitely be enough And I think that that, if cloth, but what was the research done with mice milestone, inhibitors did not increase. Lifespan is well yeah. Sure a lot of things have extended extended lifespan a fair bit, but what we have at the moment is not all the component of wider fat. If you do something genetic to mice or if you do it to them throughout alive, then we can already get that year and a half out of mice. Familiar ok, but not if you start
a month ago, every month, the best we can do it by before month, so that the difference you ve gotta be able to start light and get the big fat and you're not gonna, get that without bona fide. He read the nation, told that's. How come come by way of genetics. Why? Even it? Did combo I've genetics it wouldn't matter it wouldn't persuade my colleague army that we were on the brink of doing it for human, to have the misfortune of being already alive, so the rejuvenation is gonna, come through some sort of biologics well yeah through kind of things we are working on that I mentioned earlier themselves. Gene therapy to do very thing to do, for example, bacterial enzymes that can break down wife, prolactin fatalistic thy talked about pharmaceutical to developing whenever these of crisper show a Christmas very, very important part of this, so
Could you please explain what crisper means are people nor talk well sure yeah, so crisper is a technology that would first developed about eight years ago now, and it is the exploitation of a bacterial mechanism that allows bacteria a friend themselves against viruses, essentially how it works is that it allows us to change the sequence of genome, in particular, so in a very specific way by its often called Jean editing, and there are other technology. Fifteen editing the already existed before, Crispin, very laborious, very expensive and very clunky that is far far cheaper and easier to use. So what that does is lousy for exam.
Two inactive energy or for that matter, to change the sequence of a gene from a mutant form into a normal form, so that it works well. What previous, not working now doing that in the laboratory and a petri dish is fair enough. The question is: can we do in the body and initially now, initially this technology with two errorprone? It was planned to do what what to a church has called genetic vandalism and make have what could of target effects, in other words, basically do other changes to the genome elsewhere. They didn't want, but of course, people known as some people have been working very hard to improve the technology in getting to the point now where it's possible to actually is it on humans? Maybe going it getting that now, you can't do every
thing with crisper. Wonder you definitely can't do with crisper is insert new Danes into the dinner That's something we really need to be able to day, but actually one of our big projects is a kind of two. Step thing where we use crisper to make a small change to the genome that allows us to insert la where we couldn't previously. So, yes, the refuge and its use, not only an aging research but across the whole board of biomedical work. That's they have done some work in China, apparently on live human being, so this with a controversial. What happened was that a group in China, youth, crisper, too old,
the dna of embryos, but we're going to be, for I ve ass, well evasion and them the change was made, was itself quite a curious one. Essentially what they did was they tried to change Genco, fifty five into a mutant form that doesnt work, but that inactive form, tat, the body from infection by HIV? This is something that was discovered a long time ago, and maybe one per cent of people have this genotype and so that religious unfortunately, first of all possible very well, but also in a well that's what people looked at the end of the process and forbidden Nickleby didn't make the correct modification
but also its not clear whether doing it for someone lifelong is actually a good thing because of its inactivation Emma Jane. That must exist for a reason it wouldn't exist at all right. I didn't. It also have a side effect of increased intelligence. Vat is complete speculation. Isn't yes, why would cause them to speculate that people speculate over twenty zero. That's just cite click bait stuff that gets people excited about it. Yeah ok, sense if ur anyway. The other thing was that, if not obvious, why it favours while to make an embryo genetically resistant to HIV first, while they dont each other. Yet in the first place I never get it and secondly, we ve got drugs that were pretty well to confer like I've anti retroviral. So our motives, and yet so I m. So it's not obvious why this was a sensible thing to do. Place. However, that legal, a whole bunch of debate guiding sire, and when I hear
but something like that always assume. Furthermore, I mean just American prejudiced assume in China there doing something crazy. And he also assume that if they're telling you about, someone has been altered. That means that the private doing this for a decade for since crisper was initially initiated eight years ago, Nineveh yeah, you never know it's just it's interesting to me and I don't want them to do it. On people, but when they do do people on fascinated sit out. I know in what way what I mean that's attitude that I have learned. We will have to medical tourism in general that They do not adequately regulated treatments, and there are not adequately characterize, in other words, the people who get the treatments people pay for them, rather than people who have been chosen to being a standardized group of any kind and tend to be very little fella
but still it better than nothing in the sense that you have. Some information exists about the efficacy and safety of waste treatment. As a result, the more that exists, the better for the people who had administering refitted, can be induced to reveal their data the better. Even if it's an but you know other way of some scientists, Carlos active Take a much stronger view that we should oppose all of this period. I wish your site in out everyone who, endowed with who gives credence to people in a shop places should be shut down my best we can and should be denied. I don't really think that I think, with a way have personally I've had my my family. My mother has gone the Panama twice
and she was on the verge of a new replacement, and now she walks without pain. I bet you about. She went to kneel written, yes there are a lot of people who have very good story that our group- and I think, if you don't know less someone has a really bad story, whether things going wrong. So I I mean I don't know whether new releases numbers that the total number of patients per year that he treats firewood right now I don't know I just You know that I am speaking spoken to several fighters from the sea that have gone down there and again my mother was Mean Chin wanna get a near replacement. So when I center down there and it took she she's times fifty two, she seventy three, so it took her somewhere around six to eight months, for she started feeling anything. She was really worry that it wasn't gonna work for them. Eight months in just the painters went away and its continue
to get better and that I set it down a second time and going to keep sending a downer says it's a pretty profound effect. What was fascinating they do three days of intravenous therapy and the Venus therapy. Has I don't Oh, it's just my imagination, but she looks younger like she look She looks more vibrant when I saw her, she came to my house for Christmas. I she looked better. She looked a year younger than she did the last time I saw you. I mean this is what we would hope that stem cell therapy yes but our mind you're. What I said about the original Parkinson's trial for more than twenty five years right for fifty years really didn t know that was the one that was effect for right exactly so only a few people benefit. The people who did benefit hip benefit benefited enormously. Europe. Let people had no benefit gas now, That is the kind of stage we are in for a lot of stem cell therapies, right now, packages to say
the kind of outlier in the sense that we desire the function of the stem cell. It really well understood so what kind of himself to introduce into the body and whether we should give them is not in doubt most himself, arabic, not that far along forever time anyone gets created right now, fill an experiment, and that's ok up your point. But it does mean that were learning curve vital to have the people like now who administering the therapy to quite a lot? People to actually not just you know, live off the stories of high profile people who good benefits and taught them up, but actually too early in the day release the full data was dated.
Including any negative stuff and including follow up that? The key thing, because so many therapies and regenerative medicine in general have the potential to be beneficial over the first few months to a year whatever and then to start having side effect for the detrimental? Have you heard that are detrimental sign? If I so well, of course, the biggest thing that we always have to worry about is cancer, because it is true for a whole bunch of things too long rise, activators on the is that agent kind, some senses be characterized as a trade off between cancer and everything else. In other words, a huge amount of what goes wrong with the body licence
I've is the result of a kind of dialing down of regenerative functions that we actually do naturally have in the body, but which are not as active in older people if they are younger people. Of course we have to ask: why? Are they less active? A lot of biology? Forgive myself believe that a huge part of part of that is adaptive. In other words, it is kind of the body. Recognising that there is as time goes on, Thirdly, high number of felt in the body that almost cancerous and they have to be kind of captain check in her not to become properly cancerous because got cancer is the result of a gradual accumulation of mutations and so on in this outright and oh yes, every time you are improving regenerative capacity, whether of the south that you put in or more importantly, of the cells that are a nearby the valuable
Then you are potentially taking the risk of hastening the onset of actual costs. What is your opinion on the benefits of fasting in that regard? Ok, fasting is a bucket what'll. It be football took about fasting in relation to counts as important people of certainly found that it took a thing to do, which is somewhat counter intuitive, because the latest ages of cancer is a curve cochlea alot of loss of muscle and so on but they on. It seems that we can think I'm in countries a greedy mathematically. They gave can feel a lot of energy without putting a lot about putting German. Knowing how many calories you put in. Then you have a chance of flying the cancer down, so that therapies may have a better chance that that certainly been found. Let me talk about fasting more generally, that so Fisher
in amendment no four, nearly hundred years- that if you give my so rats left, there were like than they live longer than otherwise do, and this is certainly the most reproducible and best study phenomenon of biology of aging. Still there mysteries about how it works, allows stuff has been found out, and man Many of my colleagues and going David of Meda careers abide by making progress, but making discovering, in fact, in that area the result that is that we now have something that people have always recognised to be other important, namely drugs that trick the body into thinking it fasting. Recent political color restriction, mimetic. And we know that good. That's that's also a worthwhile thank because I've got people like eating and so
with the usual than their variations on the same side, a guy from cluster hair? If airlines vote along for your sake, involve Lunger has them has been, really the pioneer of intimacy fasting, which basically probably starving ninety percent. But only facilitate awake like that. If people have tried different schedule, all these things are pretty interesting, interlude being good for your health, but in terms of increasing you'll enjoy every by thirty or forty percent the way they do in life in rats, Norway, it turns out- and it is action of evolutionary fairy, but it also been found absolutely clearly and data that different species react differently to turn to starvation turnover. Fasting in particular that longer lives. Species get less benefit from fasting than shorter lives patient. So if you do it just right in nematode worms that normally live like three weeks. Then
you can multiply their lifespan by a factor of five on law, you sure I can't do that with the mouth hurried it you can get up to. Maybe fifty percent may be effective and if you really work at it with a personal mobility get a year or two with other try with withdrawn. We been tried to get. Maybe ten percent with monkey. If you get a few percent, if you're lucky that Tibet controversial runner, you know Was it a bit controversial because there were two We ve done really loan eccentric data. We think of monkeys have a long time and they got different. Results So the question is why the result, if you look closely exam we have the experiments were done, that pretty easy to say that they got different result because of different methodologies. Fight over methodology and the real answer is somewhere between the two sides and with dogs. You said you get ten percent, about the other, suitably Labrador live eleven year eleven, but is not normal,
That's right website, Donald Tsang. If they got about another year, they got template. Eizenstat has done so fasting with human beings. You think, is it's interesting. It's something it's not going to mimic these biologics and what what you believe is all right, I'm not against it at all possible as effective generally for health. You know you definitely Faye people getting sick, less regular, thickness, lack manufacturers and on people seems to healthier for a for private longer. In terms of really pushing up the boundaries of these aggravated progressive, chronic conditions. It. Maybe here too there's a few other factors in that are taken into consideration. When people talk about longevity and health and those are community, enjoyment, friends, loved ones, SAM, it's fashion with what you do for a living
how do you do take those into consideration? And what do you think is going out those yeah? They things are definitely big. So all of these things go phone. I ve got it extends to lacking. I meditation yes yoga and Everything that relates to stress is very important, and I it, If even reasonably well understood that way, you stressed out state you create even the size, elevated of certain hormones that interact the body and in various ways, accelerates the accumulation of the various types of damage. I was talking about area sites, no surprise that the my buddy relationship and, in fact, if we so people, often study centenarians people who live exception a long time and why they throw them of a sea because they want to find out what the tracks are. Unfortunately, quite frustrating because there's not a lot in common
Some said there is a little bit of white sums are no smoke. It's it's. It's not easy to actually figure out what they going comment is one thing that almost all centenarians having com, which is nothing, but them, if not authority, they have had particularly stress three lives. The thing is that when they encounter a dreadful situation they come. With it really well and so the whole my level for they get out of it interesting so, The court is all doesn't rise, adrenaline doesn't spike, they don't freak out our legislative polices, bucks a moment ass. They don't lose sleep, they can handle it. That's interesting! That's it so it really boils down to the effect that going on inside the mind in the body. That's how the bodies reacting to distress. Do you meditation now, I'm just show anyway. Well you're also satisfied what I certainly see dont field.
Need to add a physical of all. I would like to stress the life I spend my life running around airports and tone, but a mental level not all do take. Many do you doing any exercise to take supplements awfully going. My way through airports is my exercise, hauling. Your way through airports have any fine temperature do just Take one embarrass you have to carry rather rule about due on purpose for extra work already know for extra work. No, it's just because I can move faster. That way with Ok, but yeah, I mean certainly the fact that I've actually and actually got some weight on my shoulder their road, a good in itself, yeah. I started carrying a backpack instead of a roller bag of just assist easy to move, then holding on somethin, dragging it behind found, there's something I have a bad that I could stick a laptop and- and I guess Dick Alma
closing a still larger fag icon to generally well, I'm let me like well, I D data like today on a car in my laptop back then, but it's already cavernous one if it pretty heavy everything in it like the need for a day we made and they were traveling alone declared by death of one of the bag of sports back in other, I'm carrying is I think that you think you should be doing that you're, not doing that you maybe we'd would like to plan for the Future Hut because I'm going to have a lot of radio that exactly how I spend any particular day. I mean More. A case of work would be doing if I didn't have to do the thing that day now at which is obviously doing this advocacy Enzo yeah have you ever use a sensor, deprivation tank, know, I'd like you to use that I'd like to hear your feedback have one here
and what would you like to know is it was very relaxing elect already you say, get their say. You know what it is rightly followed. It's beautiful, fills amazing into sensory deprivation in general. You know when I'm asleep, I don't like to have any kind of noise You know my band with stay in hotels which don't have proper blackout. Curtains, Typically, when I tell him I'll unplug the refrigerator the noise so year, you basically got a dial, then you know Gylingden Well, I am optimistic because Europe Domestic, when you tell me three to five years from now, where the world, where possibly looking at some sort of a breakthrough, Worthing Start- moving into the public eye where people if we take into consideration this, is this real technology that you should. We should all start.
The meeting on our particularly on people that are older, earn ailing well right, I mean at the moment. The I even though, some things in clinical trials. We always have Remember that them challenging areas are still at an early stage. So that's why I'm here not only do they have to individually gets you know all the way through clinical trials are safe. But also that the combined in ITALY, things individually can be applied to us what the small separated the population to happen to have early on sectors. Is, is arriving from maybe congenital accelerate sure of one particular type of damage. But then to work to be useful for the people who do not have any financial problems agent, normal right, we're gonna. Click combined them all and, of course, Afghan bound to throw up on unanticipated interactions. So that's why I put this timeframe as far out of them.
In ten years and even then, with only fifty percent probability act, but the anticipation is the thing. That's where the ship convey the fact in our where the Philippines enormous turbulence in society arising from the knowledge is coming. I for one, am excited about living, be five hundred. I think I can get a large had done, and about myself. You know people, I think it's. I think, if I think it makes no sense to think about what one's gonna be doing in the distant future, people what they would want. I was on stage, but I guess I was six years ago and somebody from the earlier for about a thousand times. Yes ma. Am you know how long do you want to live? I just lost at slightly ass. I can sometimes clashes just one more time too often, and so I we look at Berkeley, gonna closer. I said I said right what time do you
want to go to the toilet next Sunday. He left me a lack of incredulity, and, I said, yeah you haven't face. I do I do that question d, but if the guy in the same kind of question? Yes, you know you may have an opinion about what time you expect to go to the toilet next Sunday because of habit. An opinion about what time you want to go to. The toilet is completely so you're going to have better information on the topic nearer the time you're gonna be able to act on that information exactly the same. So the idea of how long you wanna live is going to be irrelevant if they can repair disease and fix all these issues is just gonna, be the quality of life precisely I mean having an idea how long you want to live, even stating that the quality of life we're lucky and adult physically and mentally. You know it's crazy to have an opinion, but it's going to be determined by other stuff NASS.
Well, I'm fascinated by the future in every aspect, technologically with artificial intelligence, with automation, just just the way, a society is shifting. I mean I'm a very optimistic person in that regard, and I thank you the problems, some of the problems that we have socially those are just a result of this shift. Towards a more aware, more conscious society. Very optimistic. I think all those things are good, so I think that the standing lifespan and getting to see these real exponential changes in our culture and our society and our way of life, I'm very excited about it. I think it's as I think it's, one of the most intriguing things about being a person, is to see how things have shifted, I have been reading a lot of books, ITALY about native Americans, and thinks
how they shifted from the early eighteen, hundreds to the twenty first century there early twentyth century two hundred years later, things are impossibly different unimaginably different at the time if you could talk to them. What life was like two hundred years ago, fairly similar. Sixty Twenty two: eighteen, twenty, not a lot of difference, you know, but eighteen but it s twenty twenty Lord. What is twenty two hundred twenty gonna be like I mean I just think that we are at the cusp of one of the most back errors in human history, the changing so rapidly, and so amazingly well, of course, will one has to recognise it, we have no particular reason to suppose that they will ever fled out NASS, sir. You can't really call this one of the costs in just wherein an exponential for we happen to be noticing it more. Are you
Would you, since you started off as a coder, I'm going to wrap this up soon, but I'm going to leave you with this cuz, I'm really fascinated by artificial intelligence. Are you worried at all about artificial? Belgians du Du Lake year they Ilan Mosques and SAM Heresies of the world that are sounding the alarm, like hey, don't don't hit that switch. Turn this out. I think it's a legitimate question asked whether the progress that were making might lead to development, perhaps accidental development of technology that is so autonomous that it gets out of control However, I do think it very unlikely- and I think that the way in which we have succeeded in making the progress we have made so far and over the past decade, especially
relies enormously on human computer interaction, in other words, that the M the machines get their information from us than from the world without which they caught my progress. I don't see that changing really items. I do still pay some attention to the progress of I or my other good friends either. I knew from way back at and like every day if a guy runs mind, which is one of them. I type profile companies and you and I'm definitely excited about what's happening, but now I'm not particularly apprehensive. However, I do think that it better to be safe than sorry and therefore that what was being done to look at the possibilities of think getting out of control or data think just being misused by humans is, in a very legitimate and valuable area of work will be the next time. I see if it's five years from now. I hope you look younger. I hope, by the
this changed, never things groovy and I appreciate you and I appreciate everything you're doing please tell people if they're more interested in finding out about what you're doing what is the website of your renovation sense that this effort, sugar effort, elephant infinite number of fish that are largely a right. Thank you. Thank you, much by voting. Thank. You, friends are tuned into the show and thank you to zoom how business gets done. Zoom video conferencing you. By millions to connect around the world. Why wait any longer visit zoom online set up your free account today, zoom phone and works seamlessly from any device business phone system to make receive phone calls captured, call recordings and easily elevate from phone call to video if the need arises, meet happy with zoom ladies and gentlemen, were also
brought to you by my favorite genes of one pair. Favorite genes. Folks live so pairs of these but one com. Rev town. That's my number one did the best. They look and feel like beautiful high end designer genes, but they have stretch in them. They move didn't, find you up did didn't crusher junk. They feel great, You can pick up, appeared Rev, town, USA, dot com, Slash, Rogan, Rev, two also now ships internationally. So all my friends overseas, you can now get em delivered right to your door. Step, no matter where you live head on two Rev town, USA, dotcom slash rogue into up your day, I'm game, that's Rev, two USA, dot com, Slash Rogan, also brought to you by stamps dot com. The amazing services of the: U S, postal service, right to your
Computer, what do you a small off of sending invoices and online seller shipping out products or even a warehouse, and it's thousands of packages a day stamps dot com got you covered and you get a sweet deal. Special offer then includes a four week: trial plus free po and a digital scale, without any long term, commitment. Stamps. Dotcom click on the microphone top of the homepage and type in J r E, that stamps dot com and entered J r e and also brought to you by the mother fucking cash out, o the cash apt. Download the cash out from the app store or the Google Place door today, and when you do so, please use the referral code, Joe Rogan, all one word. You receive ten dollars and the cash apples and ten dollars to our good friend, just Rennes fight for the forgotten charity building wells for the pygmies. In the Congo are right, we did it folks,
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in love in kisses to you all yeah,.
Transcript generated on 2020-02-29.