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Today, with Tom O Neill and Tom O Neill wrote a book called chaos and its it's called chaos Charles Manson, the CIA and the secret history of the sixties. This is a book I can wholeheartedly recommend. I am. I am deep into this book. I didn't quite finish it before Tom came under the podcast, but- but it's fuckin amazing. I dont want to give away too much of it in the introduction. I want to tell you this shit goes deep and its fast meaning and Tom did a spectacular job and worked on this book litter leave for twenty years. It's crazy story! We get into that in the podcast, but I really enjoyed, and I hope you do to please welcome Tom O Neill Logan

experience by Tom Horrida great to meet you too. I've been deep into your book last two weeks and we'll tell everybody what its cholera It's called chaos, Charles Manson, the CIA and the secret history of the sixties, and I think it's safe to say that Everything that most people believe that happen during Manson murders is a tiny fraction of what was going on behind the scenes, and this is what you have many essentially been obsessed with this for many years have taken. Do this not obsessed by choice, but in the end exactly twenty years we turned in the final manuscripts. I think, a day to the twentieth ear- and this was an impersonal obsession with yours. Now, writing an article little let's Phil people in that year.

Beginning was, I was in between magazines and not working, and I got a call from an editor. I worked with three years and she was it premier magazine at that point, which was a monthly we magazine- and she wanted me to do a story on the upcoming thirtieth anniversary of the mass murders, which was ninety ninety nine happen and sixty nine and I the not another thanks. You now never been interested. Hasn't the story been written. You no breath and she said, look once we talk about it. You're gonna see Manson comes up much more,

an unpopular culture than you are aware of just trust me on that, and I think that if you look into it, you'll find an interesting story. I go, but you know what one about the thirtieth anniversary that there's no angle- and she goes- you ve done it before your fine and I await work together a lot and that began spiral into a kind of madness that finally ended last last year. In March, in we manuscript. Then that is so crazy took that long when I gesine shut down five years later, so you never got that you never get aiming printed in the magazine. Well now I mean that's also a little bit of a complicated story to I got an assignment to do a normal feature, which is about three months three and a half months, So I got along the day after my forty birthday, which is a time in any man person's life. We are kind of re evaluating things anyway, so I thought neither the money. And I needed a job

and I know that I could get into premier magazine as a contributor on the mast head, which meant a yearly contracts. Does all the people from my prior magazine had moved over and once I had a good story there, and this would have been the first, and I D sat so I agree to do it and long story very long story short after a month or two when the story kind of started, breaking old man and I started finding holes in the official narrative and pursuing them. I had met with the editor in chief jamais eggs and he agreed once he saw all the documentation I had and the evidence which was just a small portion of what I ended up having in the end, he agreed to blow the deadline for what would have been the anniversary issue of August. Ninety nine and he started contract in me by the month and that continued for a year and a half

all I did was report the story on premiers dime. He lost his job because of you. Well that was kind of what was whispered around the office. Is I never heard that you know that was ever stand. She ate it. I'm a little worried that it had something to do with it. He went on to a career those fine anyway, but new guy came in. He demand the story right away. I mean I understood that at that point I got a book agent through a friend and my book age and got me out of my obligation to premier. So premier essentially paid few to start your book, the out of money- oh my goodness, and that's I'm actually because it was resolved not in the courts, but we all had to sign on disclosures. So I didn't get entirely away with their fur for nothing. But at that point, though, that was, I think, two thousand and one heard

play two thousand then I was on my own. I had to write a proposal and sell the proposals a book, so that happened next in final in two thousand and five, and when we took the proposal out, it was book blank that was two hundred and twenty pages, and my agent was big shot at ICM, who was also kind of, What I would do it I was seduce people into the story and get them as I would say that I was like pretend I'm a guy in. U turn a pitch me this book in the beginning, in the first years, just that the trial that had occurred that have been prosecuted

I've been simple, Elsie had a lot of malfeasance in it by the prosecution. I was able to document that they planted former prosecutor on that defence team to sabotage the defence. I found out that two or three of the principal witnesses, including Terry Melcher, who put a big partners and will try talk about that at some point line on the stand: Guenaud suborned themselves in a murder trial, and if you commit perjury murder trial, you could be convicted of murder. I mean you could be sentenced to a murdered if you get a medicine

it's too, because of that. So there was about a dozen of those, and none of them happened all at once. You committed perjury during a murder trial you to be sentenced for murder for the same amount of time that someone would get sentence. It emerged, somebody you are subject to an actual capital. You could be lucky, you could be sent to the chair while and the five people who were convicted of murder and the trial. Once had I've been around unable to approve this in the early seventies, Vincent Bully Elsie and the three people who live on the stand in a material way in on a very important way, they all could have been tried for that perjury and sentence to the same or given the same sentence at the people who have gotten a dozen now told you drag, adjust

to the eleven chapter of your book right and dumb, essentially what I'm getting so far. I haven't finished, but but what I'm getting so far is there was some sort of a CIA programme where the a war but explain how they did it. They they infiltrated these hippy communities and they allow Charles Manson over and over and over again to get out of jail, they knew that he was committing all these crimes and instead

of course, rating careful when we say they, who is that we have to look at gonna break it all down, let's, let's break it all down. One of the other things I found out that was very significant, was Manson. Had a parole officer has first parole officer who kind of had given him a get out. A jail free card for the first year after Manson was released from prison in businesses, mess Roger Psmith, and he was a criminologist in the barrier mass and violated his parole the day that he was released in LOS Angeles, and this is what you think it's a little libels unimportant lie that wins. Fully Elsie presented not just in a trial but also in his book. A trial is much more serious. He changed the narrative, he's an answer and having been given permission to travel to San Francisco formulae when medicine was parole, Manson hadn't and given that permission he just showed up they originally we're gonna violate M set, em right back to prison and someone

stepped in and took care of that and let Manson stay in San Francisco and he was assigned to Rodger Smith. It took about a year and a half, but through a freedom of Information act process I got his federal parole file and those with a kind of seeds of how I found out that Manson had this immunity from prosecution for the two years he was out of prison from sixty seven until the murders occurred. Some have sixty nine, who, I am sorry to interrupt the who was Smith doing this, for who was giving him the instructions to continue to let Manson out and they can intervene and moderate weather. The problem I didn't get the whole file and the file. I got had reductions, he will report to the head office and they would give him instructions and then he would violate those instructions and there be no repercussions for him or for Manson

for instance, Manson was arrested in July of nineteen sixty seven, three or four months after got out of prison when he was under riders, supervision for interfering with an officer who was trying to arrest one of his first young follow with their moorhouse, who was fifteen and he was put in jail Platt out, so he got a three day sentence. A new probation sentence as well, and all that was hidden like is not bully. Elsie's book, the parole officer, Roger Smith, a week later wrote to the head off

as I mentioned, was doing fine and he actually recommended that Manson be allowed to go to Mexico and work in Mexico and the head parole officer in the United States and its federal wrote back and they so that's insane. He was supposed the job that he was gonna do in Mexico was surveying soil for an sack, insecticides and they had nothing to do with, and I have all these documents shine, who was hiring Charles Manson to survey soil it with a company and Nevada which disappeared a couple years later? There was a bullshit, believe me, I believe. So how do you think they were doing down there see? That's it? I don't like to speculate I can't prove it. All I know is just the fact that his parole officer asked to send him not only to Mexico, but to the country that Manson deported from a nineteen fifty nine, the last time you as a free man. He had violated his parole than even arrested in Mexico or he was arrested,

Mexico and brought over by that federalism and given over to federal custody for was a drug violation and some other stuff, so why? What his parole officer send him back to this place, three months after he been released, and how do you supervise somebody who's in another country? Can I make a summary just for people at what the fuck is going right now, essentially, what you're saying is that Charles Man, was a part of some sort of a programme, yes, and that through this programme, the they were using cam and using, but with LSD all the members of the family. They were turning, them violent and why? Why do you think they were doing this again? so I got a real it in a lonely. I understand I have to be real, careful about not saying anything that I have been able to prevent what I've prove it

is that he was getting leniency from the federal government and the law enforcement first in San Francisco that year, the person who represented the federal government there was his parole officer, Roger Smell, the federal parole officer who was giving him leniency. Roger was also doing drug research at the head. Ass, very free medical clinic which opened in two hundred and sixty seven Manson during that period, turned into the Manson that were familiar with today. You know the monster the embodiment of evil as been fully OC, call them the guru who could control the minds of these followers. So he would come into the clinic to see Rogers when he went for two reasons that it was a free clinic. It was at the height of the summer of love summer of sixty seven and he will come in with the women. The girls say about five or six followers then, and they would walk behind them. They wouldn't speak unless

spoke to them any command. He issued towards them, they would follow and they became very well known around the clinic and they were there principally for man and the sea Roger for his weekly prowl appointments and other girls were going in for Stds, and there was an pregnancies and stuff and we're getting free treatment. That was the summer that the man's a family formed and then they laughed in late, sixty seven early, sixty eight migrated down the LOS Angeles and became the killer caught. It's crazy. How quickly this haha, it's insane. So what will you have handled? Understand we're talking about two years we're talking about sixty seven Manson as in hate, Ash Perry, sixty nine, the date Labianca murders and then the trial, and then everything else the earlier and so you bought them k ultra. Yes, I am K. Ultra was a government programme run by the central intelligence, eighty agency,

originally started as something called blue Bird and nineteen. Forty eight forty nine morphed into artichoke and then a nineteen. Fifty two became M K. Ultra was a mind control programme, a brainwashing programme. Thus I was trying to learn how to control people's behaviour without their knowledge. Now this is all came out and Senate and congressional hearings and the seven

is it was expose, but nobody knew about it until nineteen. Seventy four, when Seymour Hirsch, the New York Times reporter, reported on the front page of the paper, so their main objective was to commit to create what they call him: no programme assassins people who would kill on command, popularly known as much mentoring candidates. After a book that was written, nineteen sixty two and later became a movie and then a movie again. The people would be through drugs and hypnotism. The objective was to get people to go and commit an act of murder against their moral code and have no,

memory of their programming and be amnesic even of the act after the fact. Often that was just one at that was our main goal, but they were also trying to create couriers people in a military people that they could implant messages sent them. You know across dangerous areas, whether at that time of the Vietnam WAR and deliver messages and then have them wipe from there. The member in case they were captured at all kinds of objective, so Roger Smith was supervising Manson when he became exactly what he was able to do exactly what the Uk Alter programme have been trying to create and do for at that point, that fifteen seventeen years when it was all exposed in this

seventies- and there were these hearings. First, the Rockefeller Commission hearings and the church hearings and then finally, centers TAT, Kennedy and Dale anyway held hearings, the CIA MR that they had done this, but they no one would say exactly what they did. All the records have been destroyed when the two people who ran Richard Helms would become the directive. The CIA in the sixties and Doktor Sidney got labor was kind of the mad scientist who had supervised all that all that they save houses and San Francisco New York, LOS Angeles, where they would experiment on people that were Lord and entities, the apartments and houses that were either look, look like brothels or hippy, communes or whatever, and the people who are working at the head ash very free medical

when that was run by another Smith, which makes little confusing but Doktor David Smith, who founded it. He had given in office to a scientist named Jolly Wes Louis, west. Who was when, when the hearings occurred in the seventies identified as a top and Caille to researcher he was academic, come out of the military, have been at the open university, Origami University Universe of Oklahoma City and then you see allay running psychiatric divisions. He d I'd ever being involved in our culture, and this was one of the moments. I think it was two thousand and one when you know things really kind of shock where's my reporting was. I learn that last had been at the same place. Manson was in the Hague in the summer that Manson became exactly what the CIA was trying to create.

I know that I didn't reviewed west about seven years before for a story. I did about celebrity stalkers of people who are obsessed with stars and then only to kill them or try to kill them, and he was an expert and violence, hypnotism brainwashing and he was the chair of the Security department you sail at that point. He was dead when his name came, in the mountains story and there wasn't all out of me. I guess it was a lotta. Google, then, are a little bit, but when I did a little research, I found out that there have been these allegations that he'd been involved and am character. He always denied it. He was never prosecuted, never even investigated. He went to his grave threatening the Sioux anybody. That said, he would have anything to do with this kind of programme Again through another long story, but I got access to his files, which had been left that you say allay and never they had never been processed. When I called when I made the request, it took him two or three months to process the paper,

I went through them through the whole summer. Looking for a needle in a haystack and it was intuition got, I just thought there might be something there and sure enough. I eventually found it It was correspondence between Jolly Western Sidney, got, leave the doktor the ran on care. For beginning a nineteen. Fifty three about contact conducting experiments, people without their knowledge to get them to have amnesia, exe I'd he dared. Not only did he do it, he created the blueprint and everything that he had been accused of and denied he dared. Not only did he do it, he quitted the blueprint for the whole programme with got leave the fact that all these kind of, interesting research programmes merged at the hate at the clinic, Manson came out of it with the power to do exactly

what then Kyle to have been trying to create. For up to that point, I thought was worth investigating further and that's why I kept going and going going, detain alot of crazy shit back. Then you wear of operation midlife midnight climax, that those with the safe house is. The emphasis was the. Author version, where they they lured these Johns into these brothels and then dose them up with LSD and studied them. George Hunter White was the heads he I get. Guy he would say by the two way or one way mirror and watch them that the jobs will be dose Adele S they tried aerosols or just drinks, different things, and then they would study their behaviors aerosols, aerosol spray feel tat would get the oppressed to do that now the processes and get a man there than they go to the bathroom Marseille ordinary in this very area. Again that the problem is the records are so scant because Helms order got leave to destroy all the record.

The nineteen seventy three when the two men left the agency in the autumn, reason. Anybody ever discovered that it existed was a whistleblowers but who used to work for the State Department who remembered that there were records on a warehouse, and they were just financial records from the beginning of the programme and fifty two until the end and the possible end and seventy three and it was just financial records of where research took place, how much was spent, what kind of equipment was bought, but nothing about the content, the guy Found that ended up testifying to Congress than working would seem more hers to expose. It was named John Marks. He wrote the first book about I'm k, alter the came out in the middle aged Emily's called the search for the manchurian candidate and after he wrote his book. He never saw you know. He spoke to the little bit of a tour. And then were treated and obscurity and never would do an interview again until I approached him and the early two thousand

and when I told them what I have what I had found for west files, these documents he agreed to meet with me at his town house, in Washington D C, and he told me he said the reason I stop talking a writing about this was people were camping out on my front lawn in o, telling me that they'd. And victims of them care alter. He goes I couldn't go anywhere. In my whole, life became crazy because everybody thought that they were subject to this cause. Nobody knew they did these drug tests on prisoners, hospital patients, Johns hippies people that had no idea of this was going on for twenty five year, so marks became, the authority. So he had never given an interview till he met with me and when he looked at my documents at that point, I think I had about ten or twelve or fifteen pages that grew events

like a goin back to the files and getting more he said it was the most unread acted, uncensored account of what the real objectives worm. What was really being done? He had never. He said if I had had that my whole book would have been different. So that's one of the problems about Well, how much did they do or how far did they go? There's barely any record and that's another reason. It took me twenty years because I was trying to find out whether or not whether it actually interacted with Manson and where the girls I may I knew he was in the same facility. I know that everybody that workers- I interviewed- everybody that was a lie- that most of them were still alive back in the night, late nineteenth and early two. Thousands, when I did this ah said: oh yeah Charley was Europe. We knew it was Charlie and the girls they come in every day.

A few days, a sea, Roger and and West was their recruiting subjects now West, while he was there that summer had opened suddenly called what he called the Hate Ash Bury project and in his correspondence and papers that I found it call it a laboratory disguised as a hippie crash pad and just like the operation, midnight safe outlook on safe houses, which were disguises, Bertha, upward, aloes and that type of thing or brothels these. This was an apartment that was decked out Hersey collar tricked out, Look like a communal hippy place. He had six graduate students and I have his letters to them before they came to work in this goes grow your hair, long, where genes dress like hippies and or people in there. So they ran after the summer. Sixty seven and West was getting people from that hate. Icebergs

medical Clinic on Clayton Street and selling them around the corner to Frederick Street to participate in that Lord, and I got the diaries of some of the graduate students who were there and they all in those diaries said we have no idea. What we really supposed to be doing here, we feel like this whole thing is a cover for something else. What has jolly want? Why is he in making us bring these people and so agent doing that graduate students telling them to bring people in and drug demand magic telling them for some of the main alarm shortly, because they were also, you know, encouraged to use LSD. I'm sure you can imagine being a graduate student, and this is your project on penal mean that sets up. Even if you leave that programme and gone to do legitimate work, the ethical found. Nations of your career or set up in such a strange way, your machine, billeting people against their knowledge. While they didn't,

who they were doing afore. That's why they were always questioning it. So Oh you know I don't How I found one or two of them after they were very careful talking to me. I am sure that he felt it they're gonna go to jail but that's the thing if any of these experiments or whatever was going on, resulted in the death. There's no stature limitations on murder. Right I mean that's one of the biggest disappointments of my book is that people like West all alive to answer for them to enter this, and it was really frustrating for me because again, his name was on the front page of the New York. In nineteen. Seventy seven when they had the major hearings about I'm K ultra and identify them is ahead of the psychiatrist department at you sell a very prominent doktor researcher and he said he had not. And to do that. He'd never used LSD on humans, and he wouldn't. He said they had asked him, and he said now I

these letters between him and the guy who was run in the programme describing how they're gonna do it hide it from his colleagues when he started and he started that lack when AIR force base. He was running the security department at the hospital. There are nineteen, fifty two when he was their running that hospital. That's when he started his experiments on prisoners, human subjects in one letter to godly pieces. Eventually, we have to take these experiments out into the field of cheese. Exactly what is that

Well, if you haven't gotten it through a chapter eleven, yet you haven't gone to the Jimmy Shaver, okay, no! I haven't a year after I'll. Maybe Jamie did a year after I was contracted with the CIA to do these experiments July. Fourth, one thousand nine hundred and fifty for three year old girl went missing from the parking lot of a bar at about eleven or twelve at night and her parents with a heatwave. They couldn't sleep, they went to the bar, they brought their two kids, they lie play in the parking lot midnight the little girl disappeared. They organise a search party about three or four hours later. They went to the gravel pet and to our two airmen had call are too itinerant guys had called the police the local share.

And said there's a guy, her that wandered out other brush with scratches and blood no shirt, and he doesn't know How we got here who he is the police came. His name was Jimmy Shaver. He was an airman, they did a search and they found

Crossbody, not body not too far away, and cheer ban raped and murdered by this guy who had no memory of doing it. The guy had no history of violence had a couple of kids and he was a fight instructor at the school had been in the military for another year. I think it was in early thirties. Well guess who became his psychiatrist in preparation for the trial Jolly West, who inserted himself into the case and then extracted his memory from him using sodium pentathol, where he admitted to the the murderer now in the context of what we found out West was doing, and what is objective were at that same time raises huge questions about. This was an expert

meant gone wrong. You know that he was part of one of these experiments at Lackland AIR Force Base where he was signed up during the trial. It came out that he had had treatment for severe migraines experimental treatment. Lackland, that's another smaller subchapter in the book, but is it described what kind of experimental treatment he would say? No, no, because nobody I mean, I have all the testimony. There was actually read a trial retrial and sentencing, and every time Mama was really frustrating because he never testified so they were, it was either his wife or his mother. Who would talk It was mostly his mother saying, while I knew as they wanted him to be involved in this two year study to try to relieve his his migraines, he would have. That's horrible migraines? He would put his head and buckets of ice water. The people who described and count

bring him that night when he was arrested and immediately taken out of the sheriffs custody by the military police and brought the lackland them back to the sheriffs. He was in a trance, the doctors taciturn for alcohol because they thought will maybe he's drunk. He had no out just a little bit of alcohol in the system, but it wasn't drunk and after the fact they found out tat, he had. What a man won't get into. This clause is really getting into the weeds but he'll hallucinated that this little girl was a cousin who sexually abused him as a child, and he was trying to kill her name was bath rainbow. All this stuff came out of the trial, Jolly West and nineteen. Fifty five sank. A report to Sydney got leave which no,

he had seen- and it was another document I found in the files announcing that he had learned how to develop the technology to remove true memories and replace them with false memories and a human subjects without their knowledge. Which was one of the main goals. The biggest calls them fail to program and again, when the CIA when I have the hearing from the seventies, the CIA said nothing was successful. Everything we try was a failure. It was a waste of money. We shouldn't have done it and not just me, but most experts think that that was a cover that they didn't want to admit they that they had developed these technologies that were effective. They also claimed that they had released everything they had. I found the same report where West said that

learn how to replace true memories with false ones without a person's awareness, but they had removed from the report and then release it to Congress. So that's a crime right there. If there's a lot of that stuff in the book. So the speculation is that this guy, through these experimental treatments, that they had those two month, LSD and experiment- did using these M K ultra techniques and did that to him do some sort of within this speculation out I'll. Go there looking for this? the guy had no history of violence, never been arrested with stellar upstanding citizen is only problem. Was here these horrible headaches all of a sudden. He shows by The small girls body had been brutally martyr with no memory of doing it.

A year earlier, Doktor West, who became a psychiatrist within a week or two possibly had experiences with them before. But there was no record when I try to get the record from the medical center at Laughlin his file that his name was shaver? I think I was ass a too as I was Miss so we're shaver. What a ban and the medical records it was gone, so I couldn't find out whether he had actually participated in a kind of experimental programme. Now, so is this speculation against speculation? that he did commit the crime that he was somehow another induced into committing this crime. Here again, this speculate as it's completely circumstantial. The objective was to get people who will go out and,

who thinks not even necessarily killed us that with the ultimate goal, but to do things against their will against the moral code, my men, how would they noted this child would be there? How did you know she wasn't targeted, so waited just that they'd put it into his head, undoubtedly anyone be something collecting went wrong. So wasn't a precise thing. Now is it now we really know what else. This is the very early days of experimenting with stay in the early nineties fifties West was the premier, researchers and at LSD, but he was still new to it. He had actually come out of here. Firstly, national attention for being one of four or five doctors Treated korean prisoners of war, Herbert

turn to the United States after they had made confessions of spraying the korean countryside with you, legal biological weapons, the United States, so that we don't use that that's against the Geneva codes, and these guys were brainwashed by the north korean chinese soviets. So when they were brought back after the war, west and four other psychiatrists were assigned to program them. What a lot of researchers believe is that they actually brainwash them into thinking. They ve been brainwashed by the Koreans, where they actually were telling the truth, because, as a lot of evidence has come out as recently as five six years ago, that we did you these weapons and Korea Boreal double So what is the speculation that Charlie Manson was based?

they just sort of a two bit criminal who had spent most of his life inside the system and had been incarcerated for what half of his one of his life when it was released about age, thirty, two and sixty seven, all federal institutions to which was interesting, even bully Elsie pointed that out in his book. First of all, as mother was a prostitute. She kind of she would get sent to jail for petty if after prostitution and she had him after her parents or other people, and by the time he was ten eleven twelve years old, he was stealing cars, committing petty theft and stuff. So then it was sent to juvenile detention centres and schools reforms

Ports are run by the federal government and then, when he committed as first crimes as an adult, which was again car theft. The first crimes require that, but when he saw the car to cross state lines for then it became a federal offense and he got up in prison but much more serious sentences of as a federal offense and of its state, Annie duties, long sentences back to back to back and then every time he was released. He either violators parole, approbation and they were actually strict with him in the fifties and early wealth to sixty when he finally went to prison for seven years, it wasn't until sixty seven when he came out and all of a sudden was hands off. Now. What do you think? happened? Imprison? Did they find him in prison? Well again, go there with your ok, and I can allay our nation. We want to do in the book is in our criticism for this, which we know was good possibility,

as I lay out circumstantial evidence for a case with proof of each circumstanced, but when you put them all together, that's the the hardest part is linking them finally the bridges of her what I do is show what the objectives were up and either the federal government's case throughout K altering than other programs, current health problems and chaos, and the law enforcement in LOS Angeles and San Francisco at the time so and care all trot began in the Federal presents experiments on prisoners famously or notoriously Whitey Baldur, you heard about this, but a few years.

Ago it was revealed that Whitey Bolgia had been a part of and chaotic experimentation, the fiftys when he was incarcerated and after he was convicted, he was claiming that he believed that all of his violence was a product of what had happened him in prison when he was experimented upon with LSD through these scientists. So, theoretically, Manson was in the prime place, where the experiments were occurring imprisons before he was released in sixty seven and federal institutions. They couldn't do it state did Manson ever talk about an experiments that took place turn for now. Never now he in I actually have a his. Not only has federal parole file, which was the hardest thing gets. It had never been released from sixty seven. Sixty nine I also have the one prior to that from the fifty, so the sixties and all the correspondence- and he would talk about these doctor coming in to examine him and

he didn't trust them, and you know what they were doing. This is late fifty's, and unfortunately, he never had the first names for the dockers over to one of them was doktor home, and I remember the other one's name There wasn't a Mortimer Hartman in LOS Angeles, who was one of the early psychiatrist using LSD and in the fifties, Caribou Character Grant was one of his patients. So, theoretically he could have come out of the programme. Or the experimentation that began there, but I hate to even I rather get his heart a kind of synopsis. Others showing all the documentation and does not know what was going on. And where he was and how we think matches up. But you see that when you get through chapter eleven, ok, so I was wish- I got to it, but you know the rush to get to that far. So nineteen sixty seven he

out of jail, and he how long before he hooked up with this clinic. So he got out marches sixty seven, the clinic open in June of sixty seven to just a few months. There will Rogers Psmith. He was actually living in Burma, play Manson was, and he got his first follower, Mary Brunner and then two or three or four more than Roger was the one who suggested that he go to the hate to absorb the vibes. He thought Massa my benefit from the love and peace fives that will happen in the summer of Long Roger Smith. Was his parole officer and sixty seven, but also is his parole officer before that was proven. Well now Roger Psmith it well his assistant, you this good. You remember that gas dahlia told me she was his assistant at the clinic at the head, ass bravery, medical clinics

He was running his amphetamine study in in sixty eight. She said that Rodger had told her. He met Manson when he was doing probation work in Illinois and the early sixties, I eventually interview Roger said well, timed and Roger denied that, and when I went back to girl, she was shocked, is like a complete is denying that that was a connection he met. That's why so they will leave us annuals. He was sent to Roger Psmith, so Roger could be his parole, officer, was never able to document that and had been in Illinois, except for three days for in sixty. One excuse me in sixty one he was bought from Mexico to Texas, and then they brought him to LOS Angeles to be violated in front of the judge there, and he did spend three days a jolly at present where Roger Psmith work, but he was there

a year or two later. So that was one of the four one of the many frustrating moments where everything made sense, except for one, but one very important hole which was well. They weren't there at the same time, at least as far as the official record show. So if Smith was a part of these, Pheromone Self Smith was also his parole officer and did know him before he did the seven years before he got out, which is when it speculated that Manson was possibly experimented on, and Smith might have been aware of the entire process of it and was supervising him upon his release. That's why every time Manson got arrested, which should have just locked him up. They were just let him go in and Smith. I mean to give you a little background on Smith,

He told me he call himself because I was a rock rock rib Republican from the Midwest and I came out. He went to Berkeley to the School of criminology to to become a criminologist. I think it's sixty five or sixty six. He was getting his master's in his phd, and his special area of study was in the big D. Meaning gangs, collective behaviour in violence and then how drugs would make some of these gangs that he had people who was working with infiltrate students infiltrate Jeez could get information, yet this isn't in Oakland and the ghettos and like sixty five sixty six. When the Panthers reforming then, and sixty late sixty six, he decided to become a federal parole officer, while he was still writing his

station the got assigned to something called the San Francisco project, which was an experimental programme run by the Federal govern meant to see how different numbers, a pearl clients caseload, four per parole officer. Were you not enough supervision? It was about recidivism cell. If you had the lowest slow was twenty clients. The largest was like fifty or sixty. Were you able to Super Emmy, wouldn't think that fifty six he's gonna be a lot more difficult, but it always wasn't so Smith join that programme where he supposed to be paying much more attention and care to his clients, because

part of a special programme for the San Francisco project, and in fact he was I mean he was. He was seeing Manson more than he was even officially supposed to things. I guess even crazier after sixty eight he's. Being his parole officer was actually removed and he said it was voluntarily, so he could focus more as drugs and violence. Research at the clinic Manson three or four women followers got arrested. Mendocino. They had Lord a couple, young boys and know how given the malice data mass and had sent them out up to Mendocino to recruit people for the family, three women were for women were arrested. One of the merry Brunner had the first baby, with Manson in the group and Roger Smith, and his wife Carol went up the Mendocino and petition the court to take foster custody

of the child until Mary was until her case was resolved, so they were the foster parents of Manson sign. I mean everything was irregular, regular this that actor that cases pretty interesting Mary Bruno answers and actions to women who actually killed romance Manson. Nineteen sixty nine were given, they were convicted of, can turning to the joint currency of minors, illegal drug possession and without a trial they played out and then there was what they call. The sentencing bays were probation office there is a to decide whether or not they should be sent to prison or given probation, supervised probation. So I got access to their files, brunners and actions. And in the file were recommendations to the core by Roger Smith and his wife, saying these

good women. They shouldn't go to prison Susan Atkins who stab Sharon. Is that price? and because she said it and then she went out and avoid any random here there is a proven cause. Text. Watson clearly was a murderer, so she had said the text: did it she couldn't do it, but this is later on hers. Her first accounts were that she did it and then what testified to the grand jury. She said that she didn't do it. She held Sharon, while tech stabbed her rather later in prison. She said that she did, though it then she changed again. She go back and forth, but she was pretty brutal, and Mary Bruno answers and actions were given probation instead of being sentenced partially based on Roger recommendation. Why just Psmith I done find himself as a form of parole officer. You know what this expertise

and he said he had known both of them for two years and what software lie had only known since they could have known Susan for two years. He knew her for about a year. He didn't Mary pretty well and he never disclosed that he was Manson's parole. Officer are as identified in these same files as the person who lord these women into crime. That where his communal wives, that they would steal for him, prostitute themselves for him and the other people that they interview the probation officer good against it saying they're gonna go right back to the sky, was down in LOS Angeles and continue the life of crime, but the judge release them now. This was because they were doing Charlie's bidding according to the record, but they were trying to do was recruit people into the family, and so they would offer them drugs and in an does saxon lotta women and bring them to these parties and where they screwed up? Is there

an under age boy who was rated out right and he Was the son of a shared legs turned in the snakes? That's really screwed up in that situation and that's how they got arrested that time instilled a released yeah, which is really crazy. There's. So many of these instances where Charlie or members of the family were arrested, and then it seemed like the police officers who are holding them were being told, hey you gotta. Let these guys go there is. This is a higher situations above your pay, great yeah, real turning point and my reporting was after I got access to medicines, parole I'll and saw that I mean an inhaler scholar bilious, I think, describes to arrest that Manson got released on technicalities, shyly police workers, nothing when he should have been violated

What he didn't do is talk about three or four more. If you ve gotten up the chapter ten, you seen all those lovely it out. So what I got this record of a pretty substantial record I took it to someone in Louis Walk Neck, who was a retired judge and retired district attorney from the valley at around here Van eyes. Cause. I needed somebody with the expertise and the knowledge of how things work, just to look at everything and contacts things work at differently today than they did in two thousand and nine two thousand. When I interviewed him, but he was there and sixty nine in the days office. I brought the I to him, and we lay them all out on his kitchen table and is looking at them in the poor. Guy was very sick with cancer and less but other a quarter. And he's looking at all the documents, and he see

This pattern of catch release, catch lease and he's got chicken shit, chicken, shit, Zol chicken shit because he shouldn't you should have gone back the first time because they wanted him out. He said that he was more important than somebody out than in. He goes you gonna find out. Who was- and I go up. How do I do that? Ngos you not can be able to that's fees and inform it I got but whose life? What should I look at it goes well, he was working either for local law enforcement, the federal government, the the eye that somebody wanted him out there doing whatever he was doing so that was important, turning point was about two years later: when I brought similar materials to Stephen K, who was bullies. Coal prosecutor in the case passed up you for a second, so this speculation, his speculation was the Charley was in it Warm it well and again inform and has many deafened Russians, it's not just informing on crime and also can be doing the police's bidding

That's why the CIA spit with a CIA or the FBI being a part of a programme right their allowing this, and also there is speculation that the the goal, was to try to diminish the Anti war movement, and that this guy was a part of the hippy move and then so now people associate hippies with violence and drugs. In murder and others ethics of well, I mean again on the eyes, but we're nortons try to do it, and I know that your pockets for longer than pointing keep gone forever about an hour. Now, I'm not gonna regret it. You're gonna regret it it's been a while, since I've done this evoking about a year ago and everybody I mean I have been getting the causes,

When the boy came out, some a little rusty believe an entire great. This is amazing. Stop its edges hard, a kind of cover all these lose ground without sound and not without giving context. Guess Einstein in an nineteen sixty seven, the federal government start the FBI started a program called Poland. Tell pro in San Francisco to help in their first stop. At the same time, Manson arrive there to see eye to eye a programme like I'm care ultra illegal, I mean I'm Calles was illegal because they were violating people's human rights by giving them down without their knowledge or consent, but they were also operating on american soil, domestic soil It is against the law in the United States are not allowed to see, I'm not allowed to operate here. They'll, when something they started. A new programme called chaos same thing. They began in San Francisco in the summer of sixty seven authorized by Richard HOMES, who is by then the director of the CIA.

Had come up than fifty two working under Alan dollars and then John COM, and he was supervise, got Lebanon care ultra. So chaos in Cottontail pro each had the same objectives which were to neutralize What they believe was a revolution, the revolutionaries that we're gonna create a civil war and America. The left wing Anti WAR movement, the black Panthers and the hippy movement, who kind of embraced at all, and that's all again in the early sixties, with Ronald Reagan, had become the governor of California and J. Edgar Hoover was convinced that the free speech movement which began in the early sixties in Berkeley, had been infiltrated by communists from Russia and China and they were trying to create divisiveness within the United States to start a revolution. So

whoever Sadako tell Pro and Reagan was involved with, that is as the governor and then home started chaos and both of them had informants, who were trained they had something called the Hoover Academy where they have training programmes that turn agents into hippies. Just like jolly well with his gradual still they grew the hare along. They learn the lingo and then they went and try to insinuate themselves with with left wing groups. African Americans, with the Panthers Coronel Pro, would pit rival groups against each other, and the ultimate goal was to get them to kill each other. Coming out prowess, exposing nineteen seventy to one or two after a bunch of can radical p,

all rated a warehouse in Pennsylvania where they need immediate pencilly. Enough. Far from where I was raised, where they knew that the FBI stored records and then they released it to the public and it was the record of this operation and the documents were astonishing because they want rejected because they stolen and then released. There are documents Celebrating the murder of one beaten, the Panthers big I'm really paranoid by sixty seven sixty eight there, all kinds of energy our struggles and they thought they thought that they were correctly thought that there full traded and they suspend they were some of them killed other Panthers, because I thought they were informants but also had a rivalry with different groups like in LOS Angeles, the? U S slave, which is a militant group and the commentary pro operatives would lead the. U S lays think they were about to be attacked by the

Anthony and vice versa, and that there be a shoot out and when control was powerless expose and this and ease and resulted in more hearings investigations. They admitted to being responsible for and support I think twenty or thirty killings by their operatives chaos. On the other hand, there is minimal records of CAS. All we know was it existed from sixty seven, probably till Helms. The CIA and seventy three and that their objective was. We know They were doing surveillance and we know but they wouldn't wiretapping and infiltrated groups. But as far as beyond that, you can take even name a chaos. Aid nobody's ever been exposed because everything was destroyed when Helms laughed the record, so these groups were trying to incite violence. Now we get to the motor

above. All of the official narrative of the Manson murder are the tailor Bianca matters, which is what the prosecutor events bully. Elsie presented a trial, which was the famous helter skelter motive, in a nutshell, Manson believed that there going to be a swore and he wanted to incite this race war because he had convinced his followers that, through messages he received from the Beatles White Album from their lyrics from biblical old testament prophecies that he had been told that he was gonna, be the saviour of the world and once a race were started, he would hide his family than a bottle

less pit in the desert and when the race were ended with the blacks, winning the blacks will be frame for four murders. They would. The massive family would emerge and re populate the planet with their perfect up offspring, dominate the blacks. This was Vince Puglia policies, while he inherited- or there was talk of that there was a philosophy of helter skelter at the spot, ranch with where they lived in sixteen sixty nine. That Manson would discuss

spot whether or not it was the motor for the martyrs? Is this? I raise serious questions about that. Member Manson would discuss it in that way that there is going to be a race war and that they would emerge and then their offspring yeah yeah, except for the fact that what's question so the way fully oversee was able to convict Manson Maxim wasn't at the Tail house when the murders happen he had in the official story dispatched Susan Actions, Patricia Kremlin Go Leslie. The Serbian and Tax Watson to the house, the former House of Terry Melcher, they didn't know who live there, but just to kill everybody and has Manson allegedly said leave something which he he wanted it to look like blacks had killed,

these all they knew what they were wealthy beautiful whites and he wanted to ignite the race war. Because of the Panthers got blame for these murders, then the police will crack down on them. They revolve the revolution when happen. They will be aptly would spread across the whole world and then, when it was over and the blacks had prevailed, they were to die. Manson believed to be able to run the well that's when he will come out with his followers of their whole in the desert and take over the planet. Now, fully said in said in interviews that I didn't have until after he and I stopped speaking, which is when he started, threatening with lawsuits and other things, and in the two thousand and six seven I discovered two or three interviews he gave in the early seventies, where he was asked if he believed that Manson, really

leave this craziness and moving us. He said I don't think Charlie believed in it. He got his followers to, but he never believed in that he was too smart. He was a con man. What the interviewer than now in the file what was wealthy. Believe it. Why did he sent his followers to kill these people? The first sight of the TED House, the second night, unless zealously upper middle class couple Bianca's, then you know what was the motive and that's one of my biggest regrets. As that I slept and they were kind of obscure, Japan House interview? The other was original newspaper, but that I didn't have them done all the research. I thought I read every interview he'd ever given, but I didn't have it at hand to say all right, then so I get that cuz. I

big man, some believe that either than what was the motive for the motors, why were they sent there to kill and that's what the book explores? So do you think we'll see was operating with the knowledge that Manson was a part of these programmes, Oh, that's the big question yeah I laid out in the books. I interviewed believe he was the first, not the first one of the first interviews when I was a magazine assignment. He invited me It was house in Pasadena that was April of ninety nine. We spent Lily six hours together. He was so kind and generous? With this time, I thought I scored had the process they haven't given interviews that he always gave interviews about this, but he hadn't for a number of years. It created for whatever reason and joined the court that interview. I arrived at his house went to end in the kitchen. His wife gave me a time

cookies, coffee and lemonade. Then he and I went out to lunch in the valley somewhere. He showed me some of the sites connected to the murders. Then we went back to the house and talk to the sunset and words the end of the six hours. I did realize that though he was talking non stop and I'm record everything you haven't given me anything new or different. I mean I just finished helter skelter, I read it for the first time said, never been interested. In the case till I got the assignment So I did what we call the hell Mary pass in journalism, did you, ask someone if there's anything, they could tell you off the record. Not for attribution that will help them to get something fresh cause. I was still searching for an angle. This is the first month reporting and thence Kenneth

Not a minute thing was turned off turn it off. So I turned off the recorder and he did. I could tell you was debating, but then he told me something which I am not sure if I reveal until the last chapter is off the record with salacious pretty shocking larger pick pictured. It doesn't change anything really, but it showed me that he is a very different account of something very important and the narrative and I took that away and I thought well then, what do you say what it at first? Let me explain: it was off the record. Right in two thousand and five when I interviewed him for the second time in all things, what the hell and he started, threatening me and with lawsuits, in writing letters to my publisher, trying to get them to stop the book. He wrote about what he told me and he claimed that

had dragged out of him and embellished at all this, but once you put that in the latter the lawyers at the publishers, that was not on the record anymore, because these documents will all be in civil trial when it suits you what you said he was about to do not off the record to me Yet they said now it's on the regret. I mean he is violated his agreement, let you so what told me was that famously an audio video tat was taken from the TAT House by the police. Excuse me the first day after them, First they found it had not been aloft, videotape videos. Having home video taking was relatively new. At that point, not a lot of people had cameras, but rolling Polanski did an helter skelter been says in the book that the police took the tape, viewed and it was just sharing and roman making love and returned it to the loft Roman was in London at the time of the murders he can.

Back immediately and then about a week later. He went up to the house and one of the first things there was. He went up the law and he Everybody knew that they took it allegedly that that's a story found it and took it. Vince told me originally off the record that the tape wasn't of Roman and China, making love. It was Sharon being forced to have sex with two men against her wishes and he said Roman was the one who's making it cuz. You could hear him in the in the background now, if you re the boy you ve read those chapters- Roman, it alot about stuff to shared yea, similar terrible person, his pretty bad, but would you when you hear what he did, what the reason why can ever come back to the country? Go well, ok, make sense and makes it s not surprising. The monster yeah yeah. I mean answer this really good at making movies yeah, which will not conceal anymore,

as the last one he may, which is supposed to be one of his best they're, not gonna, will hasten the United States, but once I had that that's the first rabbit hole. I went down, I'm like well. If this was different and the official narrative, what else might they have changed so Vince and I were talking on the about every week for two months he was so accessible, so I'll be interviewing people and one of the first things after that that I found was the perjuries by Terry Melcher. On the stand I found, I got access to two separate files and found that culture doors days on record producer, young boy, wonder who lived in the house with his girlfriend candy bargain and CLO up until January. First of sixty nine then moved Malibu and roman and sharing moved in the house in February now,

was the part of the motor for why the houses pet and again, this is getting the ways. But it's hard to talk about any of this. Without this exposition, Manson sent his followers up there To instil fear and melcher by killing all the occupants of its former house who were strangers for them. I don't believe that that's the official narrative, but now sure testified at grand jury and then at the trial that he had three fleeting and as with Manson Wanna Beach, boy, drummers, Dennis Wilson's to their eyes and then one there and then to when he went to the spot ranch in April and may have sixty nine to listen to them, play music with the possible possibility of recording them He didn't think they were talented enough and told trolley.

In so many words and this is the official narrative, that's my man, some kind of spy rolling one crazy cuz. He been rejected by Terry Melcher, so he decided it was time for Helter Skelter, the race WAR and again a lot of these things. Don't add up when you step back or wide killed Terry Melcher at the House, a Malibu books he knew where he had moved to. Why do you just go to this other place and kill strangers? Maybe Terry Wouldn'T- In fact, at all that the boy line was Terry on the stand in all the official accounts that this case, of which there are many notches, helter skelter, but lots of books, his relationship with mass and ended in May of of sixty nine. He said he never saw him again when the murders happened at his former house. It never occurred to him at any the deal with them or that man's and did it. I stop believing that a mother to win, and then I found these documents shine that melter actually had gone to see Manson twice at the spot ranch,

after the murders and then once all the way out Death Valley where they had the Barker Ranch, where they were hiding when they were finally captured in the fall of sixty nine. Once I could document that that change the whole. I mean it in change but impacted the motto. Melcher was a principal witness against us, Charlie, wasn't at the TAT House Manson her believes he had a convicted of conspiracy, in other words, ordering people. To go up there and kill, and he had to have a reason for that house at Terry, provided it by saying? Yes, I did go out there and try to record them and then eventually the question it came out, but I never had leaving the door, then again I had no idea. I never saw him or her from her motivation was revenge and Terry Meltzer could term term Melcher didn't turn him into a star right, so this laborious he was using, but it did make any sense.

Right, because Melcher saw him after the murder several tops year and not only even if it bates it, they didn't make censure copyright nuts. Why thing? Why think you could get away with anything then because antics of the family at the trial and everybody was so horrified by what was going on. Nobody was looking at this critically and questioning stuff because every day in old mansion and the girls are getting thrown out of court room for screaming for singing for dancing for marking the proceedings, so all this under the radar about once I can prove that Melcher lied and in two or three more. Then I know that I had a question. The entire narrative, so polio see started monitoring my interviewing. This is law laid out in the beginning the book. So

the fall of the first year of ninety nine. I got a call from one of my sources. Rudy out the belly was another important. When this he was the man who own the house with a murders happen, he was traveling. Me was traveling actually in Europe with Sharon who had come back about charity about three weeks before ever Baby and Rudy had told me from the very beginning he was very close to tarry Dennis Wilson and the third guy Gregg Jacobson Gregg Jacobson was another important witness, allied throughout the whole, always decimating the trial to fit a narrative pence needed. Rudy had told me that fence called him. Ah Terry called him and of what are you telling the Sonia? No one was supposed to know about. That means. Promise me it would never come out. So at that point No, that was onto something even even bigger, and then I got a call from thence.

He left the macedonian machines and he wanted to talk to me. It was important, so I call him back. They said you know I am hearing. I can't remember who told me that was another little game of his. He would never be like tromp saying on this guy's said to me you're one of my friends. Are they say of events that someone Tom? I heard that your questioning my tactics in my choices the trial that true you know, Tom was what's goin on here. I got what I'm looking at statements you know you know where this was guy. I'm in unaware been taught at that point. We hadn't talked about six weeks. I think because I want you to assure me that all be given them opportunity to answer any of these questions, because, because what my peer irregular to you as a lay person can be easily explained by me as well. Of course, Vantyle definitely swing back around here before it wasn't. I this was gonna be out in August, and we were like October. I think yeah. I got it extension little there also saying you're doing is a book and that you lie

but it's not a magazine. Saigon are not still getting paid by premera cuz. I was at that point and I had no idea it was going to be a book cuz we're still in the first six. Seven months, so at that point we stopped talking, Benson died and it wasn't until two thousand and five. When I got my book deal that I went back to him with these questions and I thought hoped naively, that I would get him to break down and say: yes, all see I operation, I was up how that was stupid, not nay, but- and I thought what else can I say when I put all this and found him, but you know as he must have been really freaked out by how deep begun this year again you ve rather prologue today, where we open and that seen in his kitchen, where he screaming cursing at me in saying he's. Gonna hurt me, like I've, never been her before and he's going to sue four hundred our

The millions of dollars is crazy or when you get to the end of the book, you'll see the outcome of that day and what happened when he's beckoned me saying. Oh give me a call on the cover my book I don't know about his in and then, when I wouldn't agree to anything, then the lawsuit threat started happening, so naively I didn't think it was a breakdown and say I was working for someone else and had no choice, but instead he was a vase of threatening. Screaming denying he had two recorders. I to a quarter at his teeth and went off the record every two minutes so we'd have to turn off. The record where's invents was not turning his I'm like ventured and turn his back, no internal off weight, and now that's miracle analysis, yours so woman. It screaming and curse and not be going. Do you have any idea how you, if you fucking, put, doesn't her book and then or quarters, go back our butts does it they were already on, because we couldn't keep up with all the off the record cheese. Then, when I

at home. That night, so I walk the House six hours exactly almost six hours, just like the first time, six years earlier, his have any by the army. This isn't quid pro quo. This isn't quid pro quo, but if you don't put this ridiculous none, Hence in because you know a blur from thence. Blue eyes referred himself in the third person of blur from thence Bulldozer covered Spock of have no idea. What that doesn't. I rarely do it. I'm very selective. I get asked ten twenty. Damn in the man's egos you'll see that in the book, then I get home that night. There's messages comic comic and he called me. I think it's a week, can. I have almost every day the next morning, a few days later, trying to would bully me and then he say not to look at what this is gonna do to my family. My kids. Went on and on non slow had to be very excited by that. Knowing that, like this is as no there's no reason for that guy react like unless your hat

on how and then he knew so a yearly now you're there. He said when we find because they're at the very last phone call, which is the weak and a half later he got so you really gonna go ahead and do it this guy. With a sad events, I'm report, when I had I go if you want a go at this point, I ll the magazine deal. It ended. I had sold the book, so he knew had a publisher. I told him who was- and he asked for my editors name there he said as I will be sending them a ladder, because I will work on this letter for hours. It's gonna be a complete rebuttal of everything. You argued. The all of your arguments, all your points. It's gonna ruin you going to cancel your deal. Cars are not stupid so he wrote the letter. They got it and I think I was June or July after February of that that year, two thousand and five got a call from my editor. He said you gonna talk to our attorneys. He goes. We have a letter from them

I go, I told you it was coming it's insane as thirty four pages single space with fifty pages of attachments and because I've never seen anything like this. So he's had talk, talk to the attorneys they sent me over the attorney and he said my first question. I ve never met the guy before those first question for you, o is- is he suffering from dementia? He goes. I was a law student during the trial and it goes father trial. Every day in the paper I've read Helter skelter. He was brilliant because I can't believe the person that wrote this letter row top books of. Maybe you were dealing with somebody who is impaired. I said he's mentally ill and have a lot of proof of that in the book he is not. The man

go. He's finishing his Magnum Opus, a twenty year effort to write a book of rebuilding the critics of the Warren Commission about the Kennedy assassination I got a book coming out a tour and sure enough. You know he wrote, I think two or three more books. After that I go he's just I caught him. He all of his arguments. Don't make sense he's contradicting himself. That letter goes often the directions that it sounds like it's written by a madman that's gonna inhibit icicles owner we're southward opening the champagne here. You know what my letter like, unless you got on with payment, makes, has fifty pages of attachment philosopher letter, then about six months later. Another letter I think they were for total. I quote some of them in the book. It was knots and unfortunately, he passed away in two thousand and fifteen or six team and I get on how to criticism by permitting get it from all war buzzing when he died

think seventy four or five was cancer. I know He was sick, often on for a couple years, but I've been accused by my critics of not publishing the book until he died because of these trends. Not I wanted him to be alive. I wanted him to be accountable and have to answer to all this. The reason I didn't publish it when I was gonna polish, it was penguin. My publisher cancelled pie, deal in two thousand and eleven and then suit me for a return of the advance which cripple I couldn't why they do that. Well, was due regionally in two thousand and eight and then I'm not good at the deadlines that out it's a great book, even if it took twenty years to write it yeah. No I mean I they extended it and then in two thousand and eleven they lost their patience and it was a surprise because I knew

that the editor and the publisher of Penguin Press the imprint who very serious you know this is very well known. I knew I thought that they believe The man understood why it was still taking long. So when I got the call it was devastating. And then even worse, is that your later my agent got serve with papers and they took me to court will never go to court was resolved, but They serve me for my advance, which was substantial and allow me to say anything except that it was resolved because there's not disclosures. But let's just say I mean you putting me on hearing and they advanced stuff. You get a list of the south. Still not make a money, goes a lot of people, so that was rushing and it held up the book because we couldn't take it out, and how to resell it until it was resolved. It took about a year and a half to two years to resolve the lawsuit

luckily I got a pro bono lawyers busted broke and then once we resolve the loss was about two thousand sixteen seventeen. Then we could take it out but we want sure we wouldn't be able to sell out because it had this bad history, trailing they so from too thousand eleven to two thousand. Sixteen, it's in limbo. Well, it s except I didn't know. I work just as hard every single day and then I was involved with the director and I kind of hit the book who it is, but I'm innocent. I don't think it's a secret arrow moors to know who he is now he did A thin blue line is one an academy for a documentary made about Robert Mcnamara, so they want a book about the turn out Arrow AIR Mars. I think you had a son, on Hamilton more, as others have said, yeah area Hamilton was. He wasn't officially part of this project, but he came to the shoots arrow approach me,

actually is a writer for Penguin Press, an author that he writes books to not too often, but occasionally and he knew about my book as they had asked him at one point. If you wanted to collaborate on it with me when it was when I was struggling with it and he's a nun. I wanna make a movie about it and they that was not a movie it's a book. Maybe after so am I deal guy, council and I was in limbo. I thought why can go? I've, never met him or spoken to him, but I sent him an email got his email address and he called me like the next, those are you kidding me goes. I've always goes out fat because they had got my proposal. His so fascinated by the store, and I've always wanted to do something on Manson and Mk K, so it took about six months of legal staff cuz I'm, since my book was still owned by penguin about the suit was happening and he help this process. He got them too.

Allow him to work with me and what became an was going to be a Netflix series. He saw that he shot at what he called a teaser. So I spent two days- and this was two thousand and four with me one day at my bungalow, where he wired it with, like fifteen cameras on remote cables and the ceilings, and then interview me all day at the house at my house and going to all my miles in everything and then the next day his crew took like half of my apartment to a sound stage in the valley somewhere and recreate a my apartment. But then he used all his magical tricks like a camera. Two hundred feet in the air Zune down span was beauty for what he ended up, cutting and putting together and then in twenty fifteen. He changed what he wanted to do with the document. It was nearly six our series he had sold

and I had never signed the final contracts cause. I said now you gotta give me a clearer picture of what this is. Why one point he decided he wanted to do story of Frank also with my story on Franco's and sons. Eric's pursuit of his father's possible murder by the CIA nineteen fifty four because of what he had found out about the korean POW Biological. Stop. That became wormwood, which I don't know if you saw it was a Netflix series about two years ago. The last thing you know arrow is the second to last thing I did. It was his first six part series that happened because

When do you know, I didn't like the direction it was going so well and I fell out over that was so friends and he gave me some pictures for the middle of the book from from the shoot and he did just just Frank, Olson and Eric pursuit of it, so that took up like a year and a half of working with him and his people to develop and then at all stopped and I actually walked away from money that what it really help me, but you know I was willing to give him control, but I didn't like where it was going, and I have already invested sixteen years of my life at that point, and I just I can't I can't do this Nice still need this to be my vision, not somebody else's, and he was pretty onset and pissed off, but men. Another good series that you know of out of my project and and at that point I was out to one thousand five hundred and sixteen

reporting and working to get the lawsuit resolve and then, as soon as I did, my agent took took it out and he said before I take out this new Propose I gotTA collaborator Dan Pipe and bring young had started working with print sir I'm princes memoir and then Prince died in the middle of it and because once Prince was dead, all this stuff, how to be saddled with his estate Dan. Like a year of not doing anything. So our agents were the same agency. They put us together and at first I was Apprehend cuz. He was like two thousand and ninety one, even alive when this happened. I thought what this is kid going to know about this case and all of this stuff that come until pro- ass. I killed him enough to teach him so much ass, gonna take a year, but when I met him and I saw the writing had done before, like this guy's perfect, and he was so. We turned it out and yet what we took it out

and an Sloan. My aid inside we ve got a senator Penguin first, because we still have a resolution that has been resolved. I mean it's all a great deal, but we have to finish what, but we have to do so. They need to know about it. They saw the new proposal. As an offer for the work that letter and now after saw me and try and as a means of doing everything, the ruined my life. They made the first offer and match the publisher. We want with little brown, and I said I am not sure how much I'm allowed to say again. Travel there, let's, sir. I said if they just give me a little bit more the little brown offering or go with them, because it was the same

when they knew everything I would rather educate little and they wouldn't Inez screw. You guys got a little brown, I'm really happy with what little Brown did. Well, that's crazy route to get a book out there I mean what it was it. What it feels like when you got this like in your hand, it's on the book shelves, it must be like you gave birth. Yeah like a giant baby, I don't want to be over dramatic, but I can spend twenty years of my life doing nothing but investigating listen, trying to bread. Fruition and there were so many setbacks and so many times, I was there, I was broke in my reporting had had a wall and I have found out I'd wasted months, pursuing one angle that ended up not holding up, but at some point I thought what

else can I do now in good, knowing that all this stuff. I've done up to this point in the gutter. You know in the garbage. I can't let that happen, and I knew I had really important discoveries I made my problem was pulling them all together in a cohesive way, with a final answer and my It started telling me around too that the MID two thousand. You know you don't have to have resolution you don't have to have perfect, beginning middle, and you ve got so much important stuff that you ve uncovered about not just murders and the trial and the corruption in LOS Angeles, but the federal government the jolly worse than care, alter, call and tell her all the stuff. He goes just put all that out. There You know, and I never really believe that when I finally so well, I can't do this resolution I even have nothing when I made that clear. And a decision and then took on this Dan, my collaborator and we little

turn it around in a year. Like a dream, you now and then, when the book with foot, when I first got the guy, always at my house and then the hard cover you know a few months later at my shitty apartment amid city, the eye I couldn't believe it and I thought I now I've get run over by a bus. Causes a document is out. There now I don't care what happens to me and his kind of giving me a gave me a freedom, because now that I've done it and it's on books, Well, sir, wherever I can Why, with my life, I had hoped to go on my life without ever having to think about this again. But then, of course, after you get calls, you get emails from people who have information. So much stuff. We had leave out the book, it's pretty long, longer than they originally gave us and them I'm telling you a few days ago. There were only

and give me ten pages of animals. You know that, but you show your sources at the back of the book and I fought for more and I got sixty and you know that's the most important part of the book because it shows those every single document. Where'd you get it where I found it You know I a little bit more information about why, in a wireless important important with that out there now, it's like, I feel I don't really need to do anything ever again. I want to I don't know, in the guy, they only allows Jamie. I was telling there's a guy adapting for Amazon studios, so it could become a film who knows. What's gonna happen, especially or series on Amazon legacy. We want I've wanted to limit or not its scripted. I wanted a documentary to your right. Think about a film. Is this? Is such a long story? I would hate to see them butcher it will you

friends at Amazon. We don't know anybody, that's dead by the way, the regular Romania waiting while you're pretty good but you do you're gonna butcher, they're gonna butter it yet now I mean I wanted it to be a limited series. That's the way to go, and when we made a deal with them, they actually bought it before the book was written. They're gonna copy the proposal that we had submitted to a couple: the publishers with non disclosures somehow got it Amazon and made us an offer this is when I was really really broken. Twenty seventeen before me. I got advance from little brown, but, let's just say, allow that had to go to some other people that I owe money to sell. My agent basically said you know, bottom line is Amazon due to a great job, whatever they do with it and we can't get them to commit to limited series feature and their leaning towards a feature. If you want,

say all we do with the limited series, your risking losing it, I would say, go for it, then hopefully when they get this massive bottle to say: oh, it has to be a limited series. They didn't and the Gaza really still trying to do in future Amazon? Please, the guy has doing it. So he came to spend it week with me about an October before he began, writing and is established guy smart good than lot of films, and now. I know now I took I twenty a. How am I going to fit this? Isn't a two hour can make see I well that's. I said to him. I got: will you go to trust you maybe they'll hear this and maybe they'll listen, because I think this can be aspect and I'll help. You get put this together, put it on Amazon have people in here are promoted. I think this is amazing. This does stories crazy. It's crazy

and I think it's also a really important part of human history. Imagine if the whistle. Blower had not come forward and we didn't know about EM k, alter and all those arguments didn't get, but they didn't find the warehouse for the document. Just a man Jim would never let alone a vast kind of say nobody in the programme as ever come out and in talking add- and I mean I went to a couple of guys who are still alive- wouldn't talk to me course- I mean I always fall back. Are you know? We saw an oath with the agency. If we talk to you about promotion of the rock and give us permission, will you go to prison some mansion? What life must have been like for them, knowing that this is what they were doing people so that such a strange way to also these people are agents for the federal government and what kind of precedent disease establish where most of the people do in the research where sub

contracted researchers at the prison medical personnel prisons and in the case of Jolly West he was first in the air force, and then he was an university settings and Jolly was once you gotta University of Oklahoma. He was experimenting on patient and in one of his letters to godly asking for more funding he sang working with psychiatric patients actually benefits us, because people can't not courting directly hillbillies. He was making the argument that there we're behaviour wouldn't be noticed by anybody and but also because her psychiatric patients are. These people are getting LSD, which is a pretty powerful drug and other drugs. He was using an. He was hypnotizing them in some of the many of his experiments.

Without without their knowledge in their psychiatric patients? I mean that's worse than Nazis your mind, is you know the next most important thing? Besides your soul and they're tampering with it, you know one of his colleagues, the guy who actually took over the department when Molly in sixty nine came out. You see, I lay from Oklahoma, said to me because I again, I would do this show them all the documents, He said he always West was one of his best friends he'd, not over. I think forty five years when less died, Andy nine his, but he said to me jolly. It doesn't surprise me that he would have done this. This is the jack rubies stuff, which I guess you haven't gotten to yeah Jolly was Jack. Ruby psychiatry is Jesus, it's a whole that makes them. Stir jacket. Well, actually I won't spoils of Jack Rubia Ass, their yeah well you're going to get to,

about thirty or forty, it is on Jack, Ruby and Jolly West. I just I don't want to spoil it for you or for the listeners if they haven't read the book yet, but Jolly West inserted himself into the Ruby case after Ruby was convicted of shooting and killing Oswald in the spring of sixty for before he was gonna, testify the Warren Commission. He had never told he had never testified at his trial about why he he killed Oswald. His defence argument was that he had epilepsy and he had had an epileptic FED and shot him and was amnesia of the of the the shooting holy shit yeah, so that fits right into the narrative legged key. Well, this gets better, so Wes in certain will that microphone, torture phrases are so what is get into this now move so West inserts himself into the case gets

sign through his connections to rubies new lawyer. Uber. Winston Smith is old, other kettle of fish, but anyway caused to the Dallas County jail in. I think, was April of six before to examine ruby in preparation for not the Warren Commission testimony which he was giving a couple months before his next trial, because he had gotten renewed an appeal for a site accurate review and West who had told Sidney, got leave and in these early letters in the fifties that part of his experiments were inducing insanity without their awareness westco, to examine Ruby emerges from the, a jail in their press waiting for him. And he announces that within the preceding forty eight hours He had had an psychotic break. That was irrevocable boy. Couldn't he couldn't return to

vanity. He had audio and visual hallucinations during the exam he said, Ruby hit under a table cause. He thought there were people in the room trying to kill him told Wesley. He could hear children screams outside his jail cell. As jewish children as they were boiled alive and well said, he's completely insane? That was The day I mean there was no evidence of Ruby being mentally ill prior to West exam where was along with them in the cell and entreated him for about six months, when Ruby, finally, gave his testimony. The Warren Commission so are worn. Chief justice, worn, who was head of the commission, flew down to Dallas with Gerald Ford, who was in Congress on and and

commission and Ireland Spectre, the young I'll inspector, who was an investigator for the Warren Commission who eventually came up with the magic bullet theory. He called the magic bullet com. Illusion anyway, the three of them. But really under oath and Ruby Babble was incoherent. Grabbed an inspector who was like a jewish and he said: don't you know the killing Jews? and they ve killed my brother and cut off his legs. I hear them being tortured outside my other good news. Anything west that was one of his objectives in his entail to research, was to make people induce insanity without a person's awareness was there any contact with Jack Ruby before you killed off again. That was one of the things. I can't tell you how hard you know. Oh you mean

I thought you mean western, lousy anyone any while it could have done something to get out to kill Ruby critical already killers. Rubia Ruby had a lot of connections to organised crime. I'm and federal. He was part of its later emerge the anti Castro cuban effort to overthrow Fidel Castro, which was wrong, this operation mongoose by see, I wasn't illegal assassination programme rubies being in knots in the book I found out that began through West papers that I got access to. Ruby admitted never that he stopped. And killed as while on the orders of anyone, but that he was worth,

What these people, who were suspected of being involved in the assassination? If there was a conspiracy- and he had never admitted that to anyone, it's only an and West File and Wes withheld that. So, let's break that down. So for people who don't know the the primary theory of who was responsible. If there was a conspiracy to kill candidate One of the thoughts was that it had to do with some sort of CIA operation to overthrow Castro yeah. While there was so, the Warren Commission concluded that Oswald acted alone is no conspiracy. Alan dolls dollars the form I have the CIA, who was fired by John F Kennedy Second, in command of water. To judge. Warned the commission Richard Helms was actually jolly West employer for em was the liaison between the CIA and the commission. So

We know that Ruby who call their most important witness in their investigation. The Warren Commission investigation he was the one who silence the killer. There could be no trial. Oswald Ass, he was dead, so they tried to learn everything they could about Ruby to see if he had had any meetings with.

Oswald prior. If he had connections beyond the superficial ones to organised crime was something deeper. The commission, which I believe was a joke from the beginning it was set to determine- I mean they suddenly beginning their objective was to prove the Haswell acted alone. They came up with that conclusion, but after the first intelligent Senate intelligence hearings in this in the early seventies that expose them k, alter chaos, clientele prowl, primarily that Frank church hearings are they found out that dollars and homes and others had lied about. The CIA is involvement with Oswald in and with their own agents. Who had had these peripheral?

we don't have the appropriate not but definitely encounters with as world they withheld all that, so the house voted to have what they call. The House Select Committee on US ass, the nations that began in seventy seven and seventy eight. They release their report, which they concluded. There was a probable conspiracy to kill Kennedy that as well didn't act alone and knew no words. There's lots of books, that and in their findings and then later the to the head of the the committee, a rubber playfully wrote a book where he said that that Ruby had acted on behalf of the conspiracy of silence, Oswald that he had stopped him premeditated the murderer and that the whole thing was part of of of keeping the secret so was west. Upon that new again, I can't prove it. I wanted to find out if, when it had any encounter, any

action with Ruby prior to Ruby, committing the murderer. Couldn't find that and that's the kind of thing that maybe there's no evidence Maybe it happened, but there's no evidence, but I wasn't gonna put it in the book and exhausted every resource I had. You know cause that tat. One is always been so puzzling for me, cause here's this guy, that's not connected to the more murder allegedly and then steps forward and shoot Oswald. In front of everybody. The sentencing himself mean like there is no doubt about it, you're, the guy who did it, everyone saw it. You're gonna go to jail forever. Why would you do that, while the first report, which was fabricated by first lawyer, who admitted this years and years later, he told Ruby to say he did at despair, Jackie Kennedy from having to come to that as for a trial of Oswald, that was made up made no sense, and Melvin Bell, I was assigned to the case, was

I mean really fire like three lawyers and the first couple weeks, the mouth no Melvin Bell I took over and took it to trial and his argument was that he had had an epileptic FED and didn't know he was doing and when he was grabbed by the cops after you Oswald is that her, I'm Jack Ruby? What what am I doing or what are you doing to me? Don't you know who I am because he knew all the cops MA I argument in my book is as important my most important finding is that a CIA contract with agent or researcher for mind control became the most important witness to the Warren Commission. He came that witnesses doctor right before he testified and told his story. I go that should have been disclosed, obviously to the commission, but they're not going to say it cuz, it's a secret

right and then he goes crazy and then it goes crazy. I got told by a couple of people who were nobody on the commission would talk to me that was alive when I started pursuing them job forward. When doktor me I'll inspector. I think I mentioned that you before there's an interesting. I approached ol inspector who was running for real actions, two thousand and two and told him, I had no information and he had a head. Always maintain you know he would. He met a lot of money off with his books, about justice and in the magic video defending his magic, bully, Bala theory He always that if anybody comes to me with new evidence or look at it with an open mind, so I had sent him a persuasive letter, while his people

They finally set right. If you had these documents showing that this doctor, who treated Ruby, you know too, and within twenty four hours he lost as mine, Spectre will look at them and then decide if I'll talk to facts into us, and at that point that was two thousand and two I had lost magazine story and I didn't have a book deal thousand operating entirely on my own. I said I can send this stuff to you because, as my smoking gun the letters between got Laden and was describing law, the experiments so finally spy. Do you agree to talk to me on the phone for a few minutes and it was amazing. He called me from this for a while. They were waiting to vote on whether or not they organ invade Iraq. This is two thousand and two homes, so we rise the talk for a few minutes, and when I explained what I had in what it showed West had, you know been involved with at the time he treated Ruby

said well, you're, not gonna, send the stuff to me. I don't know I need to see it and I go well. I can't send it to you and is said what you want to meet me cause. I told him I was in Philadelphia visiting my folks and he he's was from Philadelphia He says unfair there. In the week I'll meet you Saturday, I have a squash game at the Wyndham Hotel meet me. They're prized squash so we had a meeting set up for three days later and This is something I'm always second guessing about. I made a decision. I don't think I got to something ever really got paranoid doing this, but inspector had been a long terms, later. He was running for real action and it was the first time in his career, but the poles were against him that his opponent was up. They were predicting that he was gonna inspector was gonna lose. He had also

defended this magic bullet theory forever more people over the Kennedy assassination than anything else. I thought so. If I do meet with when I saw these documents, maybe was grandiose. Me too, I thought he's gonna go my god. I need to be part of their exposure cause if he didn't and walked away from it. I thought they were important enough that he would know that that would in a once they were. Publicize and he had the opportunities here. We need to look into this and didn't he would look bass and I thought maybe he's gonna to thinks he's either going to use it. Fer to get up the city of a press conference and help him in his re election or he's gonna use it to be the euro of it and run with it before I published a book and then I'll just be a footnote. You know to others because he took it. So I cancel the meeting the morning of I called up his press secretary and his cell phone like the three

they have farmers that you have to tell centre Spectre. I am so sorry But there's an emergency. I've gotta go back to LOS Angeles, actually was scheduled to go the day after on Sunday. So it's a lie and and talk to anyone just left the message- and I said I am so sorry, but I obviously have worked so hard at this meeting. It's embarrassing, but I have to go back so I left my parents place to go to the post office because I've been there for three months has actually riding the first version the proposal at their place to get away from my friends and all the distractions and allay- and I was all gone over like fifteen minutes ago- model that press secretary cause, I told them I was like so tell him that I just want to the airport I apologise if I can't light or press echo, my guy, too I saw the post office and I come home. Fifty minutes late it is like us. Why does a ghost I go why she goes Senator Spectre? Call I got you mean

press equity. No, he called himself. He wondered to know what happened, why you change your mind and why your cancelling and I had to live on. Why go bride led to the seller? You know he was a big deal in Pennsylvania back in so I don't know if that was stake on my part. I think you know twenty twenty hindsight. I should have done it and take my chances. I dig allows what he would have done. I know that very powerful man, and if he thought that he was in danger of fuckin driven off a cliff, I never I mean I really didn't try to think like that through all those years later, when it comes to Ireland spectre I mean: do you know how? tat. I had to be in on that to come up with that whacked, I imagined dietary theory, so bad. The fact that that actually gets debated and the fact that never gets brought up that there were more bullet fragments in connollys. Then there were missing from that bullet and the fact that anyone who knows anything about guns any end

as ever shot gun is seen what a boat when a bullet shatters bone. What it looks like would look at that fuckin bullet and think that bullet went through two human beings right right and the fact that the reason why they had to make up this theory in the first place was cause a guy was hit by a ricochet on the underpass, the whole story behind or here's what I did. I tried not to lose myself any more than I had to in age, compartmentalize area into so with the Kennedy assassination. I just did a super facial like mounts, and I was never interested in any thing so called conspiracies. Yeah I'd never cared about Kennedy Herb John Kennedy assassination, but once I found out that West was connected around and again. That was a moment as it now at first, it was West the CIA, and then am I an ruby. How can I not look at the Kennedy assassination, so I kept my focus narrowly just on Ruby Oslo. West Spectre. I look a little bit

the magic bullet and agree with you, but I never did a deep dive and a lot of that stuff where they had to come up with that theory, because there was a guy who was hit under the underpass he was hit by a fragment, no bullet hit the curb and the peace of the curb hit him. So he had been injured. They recover that boa now realise that had been shot that had hit that area. So then they had to a tribute all of those wounds to one bullet right, so they had different policies The bullet there was the headshot there, the bullet that hit the curb Then all the other injuries had to be attributed to one bullet, not only that there is a different description of the frontal shot, there's a shot when Kennedy said Kennedy grabbing his neck well in the hospital in Dallas, its described as a frontal shot. When they fly the corpse to Bethesda Maryland,

describe it as a trick. Whole yeah, I've read some of that is so much for so much of the missing our aim. Yes, then, on top of the bull Yossi, writes a book. I know: justify the findings of the Warren Commission. There is a great book called best evidence by David lifted in that book me down a dark road. When I was in my twenties, that's what got me really freaked out about conspiracy theories in the first wave his eye. I always thought that conspiracy theories were for dull minded people that didn't spend much time thing. You are reading. They just slightly the like to think that there was a bunch of people just controlling everything why they were well. Then you find out about em They all turned operation midnight club. Max all this different trivial, but all this is real, does definitely real like what and then it makes sense like video footage I believe it. I think it's a british soldiers, were they dose them up with acid and sent a mountain

field of action have been. I haven't seen. That's even you find that Jamie. This video footage, soldiers on acid, and this is like archived footage of black and white. They did experiments on these soldiers and fifty's. They ve been doing it for awhile media outlets, Hoffman had figured out how to make LSD and they realize what it could do to people that they did not hear this watch is found for them. Nineteen sixty four experiment testing the effects of LSD on British Marines. He could see it out. You have turned round to us on this, So this is what it's, a nineteen sixty two zero detective for. Sixty four there is December, sixty four. So these guys are all wandering around on acid, and so they they do them up, and then they send these poor fuckers out in the field, no just freaking out. They don't know. What's going on where'd you find this out is online. You

it's on its on you too, but look at these gases laugh. Bearing on soldiers line the ground laughing hysterically. Kevin their eyes and saw archive footage. While I don't want you to play it now, but as their volume or is that all silent? You don't remember, any volume lived their climate trees and sharing yeah, so This is archived foot by this, as they knew what they were doing to these people and then they found them, and this is what they got from imperial warm regime in London. Regional footage. While we're sounds like that from our government you're not going to sail, of course they were they destroy their lock up. I'm here was another big eye: opener fur. What's cap from us at one point, two thousand eleven. I had a researcher the wash and impose the woman there who has been there for years. I can get myself in trouble for this to happen.

Say her name, but anyway, she's very well known and she's their intelligence researcher. She works with all of the reporters at the post on intelligence stores, national security stories and she had some at the CIA in their information department who will confirm or deny stuff with her, and she said I completely trust these people have been working with them for ten years. I asked them about Jolly West and see what they have on them, and I said I before you ask them: don't tell them. Could she had the documents I share them with her don't tell them what I have proving that he was part of them. Culture just say, or working with an author on a book who wants to know whether there is already done a request. I got it, we can neither confirm or deny, and she said they don't they'll tell me the truth. Like they're, not gonna, give me another confirm or deny will to say we have something, and we can tell you we can. We have nothing

but we'll get the truth to see what they have so a weekly here. She loves me now, and she said they said: there's nothing. He never participated in the programme. No record- and I go well say your name Well, I don't think you should be using them anymore, because a lot But when you know that cause you ve seen the documents, so she had written that we know what you did. After all, that's that's the way they can embed them. Also the reporters by letting these. How embarrassing that I'm your friend like I'll tell you the truth right. Ok, this is it's a complicated world were out there People safe, sometimes together, crack a few eggs, make an arm Don't worry I'll, let you know I mean I'm your friend where, if some lacking us area, that's where sir and then I said to her, ask about a report and we ve been discussed. Real, listen, he's a guy that claim to heed infiltrated. The

Manson family. We haven't under that chapter. No! No! No! No is that after eleven, where many chapters Arthur thirteen, including the epilogue their health, yeah I mean there were a lot of spooky people in and around the span ranch and in and around the family. In this one guy rewards who was a spoke and unfortunately was dead by the I started with people are now spoke, is CIA people don't know what that means appear. I didn't know what a member before I long. I won't I mean, maybe if I thought about it, but I wasn't it This is a strange terminology school. I think it goes down. There's no raise no record in this guy. That's how he lived and I found out about him in my reporting. First, I gotta his attorney and then to some of his close friends. He lived in LOS Angeles and then disappear for months. Doing

The cover work and he said we never. He wouldn't even tell us who we work for, but his wife If a daughter who were in Sweden and other people who said it was the CIA he tall before he died in a couple years before his death, three or four of his closest friends, including the tiny that he had worked on an operation and he wouldn't tell them home, but he had infiltrated the mats and family prior to the murders and it was tat his dying regret was he could have prevented them, but didn't he also said that he was at the crime scene after the killers had left, but before the police had arrived.

Which was, I got four or five hour window, and I was able to confirm not that he was there those five hours but that he was missing and that the police set up a watch at his father's house who he was living with the try to figure out what was going on. He ended up helping Colonel take Charenton Father, who left his job in military intelligence to help them these in the investigation, even just about heavy rain dress up like a happy and soda rave and rape as a really hard core right wing guy I mean he was racist in and on. His daughter sent me pictures of him and she said once he dies. In fact, this is how serious this guy was. He divorce raved divorce, his wife, who was a swedish model, firstly sent her and his infant daughter back to Sweden

from the United States in sixty one because he thought there was gonna, be nuclear war and then in the MID sixties, he told his wife. He had a divorce her, and he couldn't have any relationship with his daughter, because his daughter was his only vulnerability because of the work he did. That was be how they heard, even if they look the other way in Sweden. For the daughter lies I who have never map, we started talking on the phone, and you start sending me materials, didn't mean him until a couple years before his death. He reached out to her that I couldn't have any relationship with you, because my work. I want to do that now, so a fluid LOS Angeles and are due. Third, all of his friends and after he died. She went to his apartment and went through his things and found a picture of him dressed up as it.

Happy it's in the book, and I mean it's hard to tell those in a parking lot and the cars are all a late sixties models. So again, this is one of the parts of the book where I worked so hard to try to prove the definite link. Interview, probably twelve or thirteen Manson family members and I'd- show them that picture, and they say he look. Any number of guys that came in and out of their they come for a day. The screw us women would say, Charlie would bring I then, and we didn't know if they were the ones who are providing drugs or who they were about yet. Maybe maybe not you know, and they were all high most of the time too young to think that Charlie's ability to constantly get out of jail also, must have added to his delusions of grandeur because he felt like he was above the law because he really kind of was yet wouldn't go spawn ranch. He would threaten the he say

guys in the hills with guns pointed at you and that's on the book and I've got the document. And the he would give he would give who won acid and then either take a very low doses, sour, none or our ten. So do you think this is something that I wish we were in speculation again, but something that he learned how to do from Smith? That's a question: what what David Psmith than Roger Psmith were looking was personality change, lasting effects of Alice DE on the personality and especially Dave did something he called it the psychedelic syndrome. He did this study, he was one a ran, the clinic and basically gave Jolly, was in office at the clinic to recruit people in the summer of sixty seven than Roger. He gave him office space there to talk what he called the Amphetamine research project and sixty eight and sixty nine at the period that he was still

used. They call him the friendly FED in the hay, because everybody knew he was a federal government person, but he grew his hair. Longer. We mustache to try to blend damned, but everybody thought it was a knock and I guess he was but David line of work after his mice, research which people can read about in the balkan and mice, and violence was trying to figure out why some people were more susceptible to LSD and having a personality change. They were doing. They would screen people that this is volunteer testing the ledge

Lee for personality traits. They were trying to find out whether people have precipitating factors in their subconscious. They actually doing chromosomal studies to taking blood and seeing how the lsd effect the chromosomes and why some people would, after one trip, have a complete ideological. Change they will go from being you know, a normal teenagers are. Twenty are also other sudden, believing in mystical staff there and losing the ego and all kind of start Manson was trying to find when he was a tracking followers who were more susceptible, who were more suggestible, and that was a research that they were doing at the clinic at the time another finding in the book, and I was the first one to find it Furthermore, evidence of it the clinic famously opened, it was non profit and it was

funded by the government and an David Smith admitted that he took funds and that's one of the reasons he gave he told me he gave jolly office. There was jolly was well known in the research community no they're jolly, would attract government funding, but they were only supposed to be a service to runaway kids and hippies and people who couldn't afford health care. They weren't supposed to be doing research, they weren't supposed to be doing experiments, but they were the entire time so it was. It was sold as a nonprofit healthcare and facility when it was actually a research centre for the federal government, and this is interesting in this- could you people may think I'm crazy, but it

It raises questions. My book came out in June last June of twenty nineteen. The clinic was open from June of sixty seven, I closed in September of last year. I think it was it shuddered stores for the first time and fifty nine. Fifty two years, three months after you, Ve Muddle came out and that's one of the biggest disappointment of the book is now cause. I couldn't answer the question a bit the largest questions. I could at present the you know a case for Wyatt sure look like it might have happened this way. That way, the other way, I was hoping that it will be kind of a call to action. You know that other people would pick up the bill. All and run with it. You know maybe

is mine. I ever do my grandiose. Second man took you twenty years men, I e on a rush for these people to take up the law. I wanted some serious journalists, especially in the cities where these things took place. I mean I expose and pretty serious corruption and the DA's office in nineteen sixty nine in one of them. Until the OJ trial, the biggest trial in the history of the United States. As you know, the one they got more covered than any other trial until O J, and I can prove that it was fixed for the very beginning when they switch lawyers and and planted evidence and purple stop waded out of former prosecutor in charge of shanty or issued out of large of values that is increasingly without aren't. They fired legally appointed the attorney in someone who play ball arguments they went to a job

who was complicit who agreed to this, and I found all these documents in a file that I wasn't supposed to have access to at the sheriff's office, but I got in the back door so through some of the retire I got, secondly, bug in them for information, but I thought somebody from the allay times are good in a fall in I'll just go to verify. Confirm or refuse my allegations. They gave me a pretty early times gave the book a pretty good review, but I know stories. I thought there be news stories. Maybe I was stupid. Maybe now maybe San Francisco, I mean there hasn't been a story on. You know that at the clinic close to three months after David is still alive. Roger Smith's still alive, what about? What are they? What does they were right of your time either one of them out, since that was the other. We were sure we're gonna get lawsuits in our little Brown was brave, for anyone bully Elsie. He was already dead when I saw it but then so they weren't so much worried about his family.

Whose family they did say? You know we could be sued by his friend because they own helter skelter, and they could argue that you diminish the value of helter skelter, which I hope I did and I'd love to have that argument in court. Not or but there are, you know a dozen principle. People in that book, men, of them not public figures like Roger Psmith, David Smith. To an extent is because, came very well known. Not one of them has either threatened a lawsuit. Contacted me, the publisher I defend a lot of people and I think again, thank God. I've got the sixty pages, the notes, because I think they know they can argue the points. Making everything I've exposes documented. That's why I was so careful about not putting speculation in the book about not putting step in there that I hadn't, substantiated or corroborated by dont. Think the book made up

enough splash, further help d man we're helping you right now, I've, Andrea Guy, you that's what I think I mean if I had a gas, also the fact that they can't refute any the facts there, it's probably better, just let it die and in today's new cycle things in and out period days like who killed, Epstein hitting himself right, boomed gone. No one cares anymore covert. Nineteen other Jesus he's from a lab might have been it ends. It just keeps going on and on and on no one's gonna. Think about who killed Charles Manson today we are worried about quarantining. I mean that a little distance guarantee knows movie came out and there were time there's tons of press Otto. And the family members? Where are they now this or that and again I've? Maybe I'll just stupid thinking my book? It's all, ok, you know I got a lot go view. Is that a good response, but it didn't do what I wonder to do, which was to make a change and having a publicity Tom. I don't know about it. I didn't hear about until Gregg Grand told me about

with wild eyes, great Fitzsimons. I should say my good friend and introduced, and your good friend introduced me to the thing and Gregg is not a person pitches things to me so when he pitched to make their picture to me, full throated as well as I do, it's fuckin crazy. And then I got into it further record. This guy in the well. That's he's at the end of the book, but he's pissed off, because I didn't name on. I just thought: I'd identify him as a neighbour who came and consoled made a really bad point gave me some good advice, So when you get to the end of the book and I'm the neighbour comes by walking is too little stupid dogs Anita if I want to come along at a game you Emily's younger than I am and gave me like a dad pep talk about hang in there is great love is the best when the book came out and no one

Did you try to sue you or no one did come after you were you concern that. Maybe it hadn't gotten the push that you ve felt like the subject deserved yeah yeah, I mean I was happy because I've never published a book before and they had a team assigned to it at the publishers, and you know we got We ve got a lot of publicity, but we didn't get news making I think part of the problem, Thomas it it's a deep book, yeah dance, you gotta, get in new it to really peace are like theirs will it terms where I have to go back over things like try to piece together and like theirs. Lot going on in a lot of people to follow? I know I know we were gonna, put a character list up at the France. Great, listen, it's worth doing, yeah the juices worth the squeeze. When you get to the new. Where I manage beginning chapter eleven, you just like whole leaf.

Fucking shit, it's yeah, it was frustrating and again in the bottom line. For me, was I'm just so happy, there are black public because that would have been. I can imagine dying with this being sent into a dumpster somewhere. Nobody saying that the stock is, I think, a lot of it is important, for you were pregnant for twenty years. I don't care that you that's gonna now. Would you give birth? So not. Let me ask you this. What what is this population terms of bullying policies, connection was he given a narrative was due did? Did you think that a third loses all right. I'll start without the speckled upon something I can prove Loca, he was compromised when he was given this case in nineteen. Sixty nine, it's in the book. He

Cash, I mean, has family out there, but they know about this. He was involved in a couple cases: the fur one before the trial that call easy mean when you see the stuff that happened between him and I in all the Here's later, it makes sense. When you see what he was like before he became famous or nineteen sixty five. He had his first child Vincent Buoyancy, Junior He decided that he wasn't the father that the milkman was father and back in the days, you're too young and old people used to deliver milk to home arm. I remember hearing about it, so he, but

that. The milkman was a father. He was up and coming this deputy district attorney in LOS Angeles and fur about, I think, twelve. Sixteen months he stalked his milkman, trying to get him to take a blood test to prove that he father his wife's child Jesus Christ. It got so bad that they had to. They stop letting their kids take the bus home from school. There, too, young kids, they didn't know who he was. He tell them we was all they would say was. I was on they are had left the job a month after his wife found out, she was pregnant, Vince, his wife, then in his delirium decided that he was fired because he'd gotten, you know, clients by people who delivered milk to pregnant so he was waiting them anonymous letters file,

doing the kids I actually. This is one thing I did hear. I heard from the little girl said what has now grown woman read about this in my book and she sent me a ladder and she goes. You only got half of it. He said he terrorized us. He said my father. She said my father, but we had a nervous breakdown. She said he came to my school and picked me up and- and he took me to a toy store, but all these toys from me whenever I wanted brought me to the house anyhow, a driver, and he left me at the and the dry. Where my mom came out and I was like so happy, I was like five or six years old. I had all these gifts and she goes get into the house get into the house. So what happened was Minsk are caught. I mean he eventually was stock in them. He sent his wife to the house to beg the milk man's wife get her husband, a door of eternity test, and I've got orders from all these civil depositions when it came one when the milkman suit him.

Later so thence. The milkman eventually got his brother in law to follow men's from one of his state governments which put the car outside the house. He sent them, there's like they changed, or phone number egos I noticed, a change. Your phone number, that wasn't nice, mean not so that the milkman followed Vance his brother, like they got them Eight number found out who he was and that he was a DA's office called his personal attorney and the personal was they called man and they had a meeting between vents not man. Another man's wife and MRS Bully Elsie and thence admitted that he and stock in them, because he thought it was his wife. He used DA's investigators kind, this guy. Material witness in a murder case to follow him, get him from a private, nation they sell. Bents said he would them a hundred dollars and never

what again and the milkman, so we don't want your money, just never bother us again. So that was all about the end of six the eight early sixty nine days office, know about this. He should have been, fired immediately. Instead, he gets the biggest case at that point in the history of LOS Angeles, the TAT Labianca trial. This is where we get speculative. You have a guy like thence whose compromise here do what the hires up tell him to do in and if you read the book ever younger was a district attorney at the time he was a. A guy who ban in the o s ass, which was the predecessor to the CIA Strained and asked

I won't say too much from the book. That's where we get speculative offence was answering for something. The explanation is because he didn't go into this case clean. He had to do what he was tall makes all the difference in the world after the date, Labianca convictions and seventy four helter skelter came out book, and to this day as the best selling to crime book of our time and is a wonderfully written book. I mean I could take a page by page and show you start this completely fabricated and made up, and that contradicts the real record. But best seller and that same year Vince was gonna. Run for the district attorney the milk man and his wife had never told anyone I guess, outside of their family. What had happened for five years before, but when they saw the dance was trying

be the most powerful long. First, one person in the city LOS Angeles they want is opponent that you need to know this. This man cannot get this job, so they told the opponent and they had. A press conference, saw them man and his wife when public Vince response dead by having his own press conference and tying the reporters. Here's here's what happened the milkman! We build stalled three hundred dollars in cash from our kitchen table when he was on the rout. So I'm just doing a personal investigation and the report are so well. Did you hire, I mean, did you Contact the Pasadena police goes on. I just wanted to do it on my own and then as other people pointed out later he was doing this. This was sixty five. He was going through the under sixty eight, the statute of limitations.

Fat burglary robbery is three year every. He even if he found out that he had stolen the three dollars they would have been able to prosecuted so the whole thing was alive and lied to the media and he lost So then he lost that election. Then he ran again after Helter skelter Skelter came out for Attorney General California. At that point, the milkman and the wife or critical public again as a hey, where we more than how about this. We should, I think, is what the daughter wants to tell me. She actually haven't got in touch with me after the first email. I said I want to hear. But you haven't seen she says, she's all these documents, but Then a woman neighbour, junior quite well said she was gonna, go public too. She came out and said: oh excuse me after dense told the world that the not ban its law on three hundred dollars form the milk mynors white filed a civil suit against France

gale his wife, because Gale also publicly said with fence in an interview that that's a true that was all about up at this petty theft. They suit them for defamation and they settled and thence pay them. I think I was twelve thousand dollars in cash and hundred dollar bills and, in our part of the Was they want allowed to talk about it? They couldn't say that got any money and he would only given in cash. They couldn't trace it to him. I did getting all the documents took a long time, but I got them then when they went public again when he was running for attorney general, they were subjected You know being in violation of that, but they said he can't you know damn well Hell everything he doesn't want to tell. He lied under oath and deposition suited his wife about the stocking so and seventy three

thence had an affair with a woman named Virginia card. Well Virginia acquired well, was catholic. She got pregnant, she told them so that she was pregnant with his child and then said she had to get an abortion, and she said I Cancun abortion and the Catholic. She was a single mom there. He said he would set it up. He had a doktor, it was still illegal then, and he he gave her. The money pay the doktor, and then he called her, and she said she had gotten the abortion. Everything was fine. Then he called the doktor violating hippo rules. The doktor said actually I've. Never her from this woman. I didn't give her the procedure, so Vince went to

her house and be the hell out of her and I've got all those depositions too. He just according to her story to tell the police cushion she reported it. He dragged across a hair about the four by the hair, sat nerve punched. Her and punched her again in the face told her she had to get an abortion. She miscarried after that episode when she went to the Santa Monica police as soon as he left a reported it and nobody would have known about it, but that reporter saw it on that. You know the police wire service or whatever so the next day. It was on the front, of all the allay papers that advance Poleos, he had been accused about battery of a woman who said. He wondered, have an abortion and she wouldn't so Vince went to the police, told them she was lying. She was a client that he had had one phone consultation with never met her face to face- and she was trying to embarrass

him, because he wanted her to pay him two or three hundred dollars. He defame her like he did the milkman. He he made up a story and worse this time he told us, the police. This was in their investigation of the battery. He lied to the police that not happen, but here's what happened the next day after the newspaper reported it and been said it was a lie and he told the police that things went back to her apartment with his secretary and a typewriter and he held her a hostage sounds crazy. It's in the book. At the end, however, a hostage for I think three or four hours begging her and then bullying her and I went ahead of them. I can't remember to go to the police and say that she had the whole story up his secretary was there because once you,

got her to agree that do it. She rode up backdated bill the bill for the money and had Virginia sign it, so Virginia finally agreed to go to the police said: look you're gonna be charged with filing a false, which is a felon. It was a misdemeanor, but it could go to a felony and you, but I can take care of all that. I've got the connections to the DA's office in Santa Monica what you did and he did take care of it. So she called up the Santa Monica Police Department to say she was coming in to report that she had made the story up because she was, gray about this money and the cop said right away. He knew that something was wrong in the tremor of her voice is a welcome catch you and then on the other line, which he say: no, no, no, they can't mere so she's a nun and I'm coming, and they said: ok, we'll see

when you get here and then they despatched to cops to her apartment. Now. This has never been pilot. Before I found it did become public about what happened then got away with denying it the cop that went too to see what was going on and get her cunning. Michael Land, as he was retired and Santa Monica got his name from the report. He said I this was at the house. He wouldn't let us in said he and his partner Robert Steinberg, were there and she's cowering behind them crying we got around the house prior to the station and she told the the store that it was vacant, is that what we saw him there? She goes you have now. Idea how dangerous he is I made it up, please. It was a false report, so she got charge. The next days papers reported that, this woman come out and admitted that the whole thing was made up. Nobody said anything because a cops didn't talk, the reporters about plans being at the house and thence me. You know

He prevailed. He won, then, when you ran for a general of California in seventy six Virginia Caldwell one public and then then said told the same lie about her. He had never seen her face to face shoes, wanna get two or three hundred dollars from him for a phone com or not pay the money for a phone consultation. He lost the attorney general's raise when she went public and again with the milkman mistress. Then she sued advance thing he lied and the and then, when he got caught with the car, that other people who could show that they had been together and there was a history if they had had an affair for like six months, he resolved and pay her the substantial amount of money to go away. So this is the kind of person who when I told them I was writing about this in my book is number one. I can talk about either those cases because they were resolved and there's nondescript.

Yours and I got a venture. That's not true, because I mean number one bridging is dead. She had died, so she can see you and she went public. And so did the wise owls that the milkman and the mistress- and I would you know, I'm not interested in your assorted. You know personal life, but its relevant, because I'm arguing that you committed crimes and the prosecution of amounts in family suborn, perjury he had evidence. You know nebulae, the defence by planning an attorney. So if I'm gonna try to make this case everyone's, not gonna, believe because servants bully I'll see you not prominent prosecutor, author well, I have to show that there is a pattern in this behaviour, not only that you're lying under oath and the depositions in these two cases before you settle, but you also lie to the police in the end while case and you lie to the papers and both. If I have that in my book, then people

more prone to believe that you do the same thing in and the tight Labianca trial that you would break rules to win your convictions. Did he have a ghost rider for two skelter here, collaborator Christian case that make sense- and I sounds like an insane person in person, would probably not be able to make such a coherent book. I now he has every book, They rodya collaborators he so the not man's wife in her deposition said that when gal bent his wife came to her house and knocking on her door and said. Please do this, my husband's making me crazy We know that his your heart them out, man isn't the father of my my boy, which is due to make him stop and that their movements wise it we're not. We don't want, have anything to do with you. People

leave us alone and go away to go. You don't understand. My husband is mentally ill. He goes he'll never stopped ass. I there's nothing. I can do to get him to stop at the end of our six hours. I remember by Poland the book I might not have he said to me in a gale things. I have some psychiatric issues, she's been trying to get me to go to a doctor for ever. So you know I'm not saying that this is a reason. Some of the stuff might have happened, but I do you know. I don't even know why he would tell me that, but yes that he was able to be manipulated because of these markets. Also compromised. Yet now do component accents make sense holy shit. He had a family a whole other secret family daughter, Mistress for the next thirty years. I interviewed the mistress. I didn't put it in the book in. I didn't think it was necessary. I guess now I'm telling it, but it actually got reported after he died, because the mistress had told a few other people

I'd known about her for years, and I knew he had a daughter who was you know at the time of Vince's death she was in her thirties. I think to go back to the Manson killings. What was the motive did to hit that hoe If it wasn't two doors day, Sun was as namely interior. If it wasn't to scare Terry Melcher. What was the moment like? Why did they kill Sharon Tate and the people in that house? Here's why it took so long to finish the book to write the book. I have conflicting theories. You know in the first couple chapters I lay out the evidence that it was a drug deal gone wrong right. It involve Billy, Doyle and Charles Taco, and these guys, who were dealing drugs out of the house, will avoid check for Caskey. You know one of the victims, Polanski his friend and possibly allegedly J C ring the hairdresser I lay out that case and then we bleed into the night

Sport were wait a minute. What did it mean that man's had this immunity and why would Terry Melcher lie on the stand. I mean, why not say he saw me, soon after yet undermines the argument, but I thought the bully Yossi Code could of acting Manson and the followers did everything they could get themselves conducted a trial they didn't put on a defence. You know they carve axes in their forehead shave. There heads the girls skipped and laughed in another court rooms every day when they finally testified during the death penalty phase Susan actions, then she said that she stabs guarantee and you think they were dosing them before the trial

I can't go there, I, when it makes sense of their laughing and dancing. Well, my ever going to speculate again. I believe that one or other objectives was personality, change, using drugs, hypnosis, etc and making it fix, making it stick. These doctors were trying to learn why some people to their precipitating personality actors that made them more vulnerable to using LSD, wants or a few times and all of a sudden, just losing all sense of reality. Not everyone had that experience, but some did and that research Beata. Nineteen sixty two in LOS Angeles as a whole chapter, is a few chapters, but there's a whole chapter that we left out of the balkan war. If we do follow up it'll, be in there about another guy, does not even named in the book. It was one of these lsd researchers and you're interested in. The wild chambers and all that stuff. Hyperbolic chambers. Are you

and through deprivation yell, that's sea have one there. Ok, it's not a hyperbolic chamber. Ok with this was a hyperbolic would have no hyper. Barrack is at the centre, has ever Borg, that's increased oxygen, yeah cover yeah injuries yeah out so there was a group is a fascinating. It would have been a fastening chapter. There was a group of people, artist, educators and but they were all candidate beatniks and stop that lived on two pang, a beach in this community that of abandon fishermen shocks that had been there when the pc age went up and like the thirties and fortys, there was this whole community of homes, mostly ramshackle homes, that inaccessible, except by one road, I think to Pangaea Canyon, Road, so a bunch of people. Migrated there who wanted a. They were almost like community, really living

and there were, I think about thirty. Them and they ran abated them in their beautiful little places, they all got destroy when they turn out into a park in the early seventies, mid seventies one of the Guys Airport Rowan wasn't lsd researcher you see I like doing the same kind of research West was doing, but as early as sixty two, but actually he and I don't really know Oscar Janitor- was he was one of the first doktor First Doctor LOS Angeles, who got lsd from sand ass for his patience. But there was group of these people that live there, and one of them was named Perry Billions and he was a diver and he was a trust fund.

Because student lot lot of money- and he built a hyperbolic chamber and put gases than it has objective- was to try to learn awaited dive that they were off. Tipsy divers onto these guys dive to the deaths of people had dove to before, by learning how to deprive the the brains of oxygen for longer and longer times they got access to Alice Day. There were the first one. Supposedly civilians in the United States have access West Allis to eat or not to military or CIA experiments, as well as one thousand nine hundred and fifty four fifty five and then by the early sixties, everybody who knew who knew where to get LSD from this, this community and Tax Watson move there, who was the man killer and and sixty eight- and

lived among these guys who are doing the early research into mostly the one guy Paul drawn personality change its I mean it's so complicated about why it's important that Watson was with this community prior to joining Manson and what happened to him as far as his personality changed even before he met Manson, which was a summer sixth day, but I guess I'll say that for the next so the hot, so they the motive, though, to get back to the owner there for little mother, was a dub villiers. He said in his closing arguments that that the main motive to ignite Helter skelter Rainbow were the sub motive was to instil fear and terror melcher because he had rejected Manson so you're saying. Well, then, if it wasn't those

What was right, if you look at the Coca COLA, tell pro objectives which was too to diminish dead in up to neutralize left, movement make them, look horrible, evil, bad, and this is what drugs do your kids, the kind of outcome that this this these murders had was to make the hippies the bogeyman remain the biggest booking man and United States history. I don't know forever, but at least until the seventies became Charlie, Manson, and when Manson was his family were identified as suspects. The first week of December, sixty nine I mean I was like earthshaking because all of a sudden number no, who had committed the murders that the case was opened from August still, first December, you have photos, the front page of every paper in the world of these

it, be women in nursing children living community who are accused of these horrible brutal slayings and the argument was and what the reporters or reporting was. They had gone crazy on LSD and freely. Of an end and that happy ethic and that was same thing. Chaos and control power. Trying to do there trying to damage the youth Revolution, the youth, why do you think they targeted that house, though so J Edgar Hoover? when he had come on, tell pro operation that he'd rhodium auctioneer annihilate agent border a memo to Hoover

the saying what we have to do. This is when they were mostly battling. The Panther I'm trying to neutralize the Panthers and allay was go after the whites, the late whites, the Hollywood whites who are supporting the Panthers or something called a White Panther Party, that began and allay sixty seven. Sixty eight Jane Fonda, Warm Beatty CAS Elliot those three were actually under surveillance by the FBI. They were part of this group down Sutherland and they were basically support. Letter Bernstein. They supported the

others. They raise money. So in this one memo which I think was the winter of sixty eight, it's got a date in the book said that what we have to make the whites think is that when the revolution finally happens, when the blacks rise up, they'll be lined up with everybody else and slaughtered. So if you look at that memo, that was part of their operation, which was too they thereby impulse sending letters making in other white scared thought that I hate to speculate, but I think people will draw that conclusion. If you read the book that this could have ban chaos or comment all pro operation to turn, you know the world, the nation, the culture again,

first hippies the left wing, the black Panthers and they picked out house because it was high profile because Sharon take long, it actually will knock assurance. Tat was there will Ahern Polanski and that's one thing that guarantee no. I don't think he showed that the parties at the house. They were like these social Centre of Hollywood. It wasn't just the movie people, it was the music people, Terry Melter, uncanny bargain lived there for two years before that was a party how everybody went in and now they're gonna represented the elite of of of movie. Music Hollywood in our white people, so that would have been a very high profile placed a target because all the people in the community Hollywood community would then also be aware that that was a spy that they had been to all these high profile. People had been there it's like Joan, Didion role in her book. The white album that the morning she

learned about the murders and she knew most of the backbone she goes it occurred. She goes. I knew that the sixties had ended. They were over There was also automatic and a whole lot Alice, but that was like a cultural watershed moment, but the lobby killings were fairly random, yeah and that's a regret. I have the was just up for sale. You know yeah, really recently heard here really cheap yeah they changed the number on the very still. Not not this yellow House sighed out the lobby. How do I really drive villas Gibbs? Oddly enough, I notice for sales like I was really interested not to biomass Ike. While that's crazy, like imagine someone buying the house that they ve killings took place, but it was so long ago that it wouldn't be that creepy

we know the house on the other side is the former convent that Katy Parrys men fighting in court with the nuns the church to buy. This has been going on for a couple years out of its banana by a convent, yeah yeah, big beautiful home that have been turned into a combat like a retirement home for nuns and when the church really hit hard times financially, they told the nuns we'll have to leave their because they were selling it, so they the church, I think, solve it to Katy Parry and then some of the nuns, hired a lawyer. Could they didn't want to leave? I can't I mean I don't look too closely. But I just know that the whole thing is in dispute that letter and that, on the other side of the Labianca how's, our Wowzer hilarious, haunted. So did they did they target the law? Bianca House, for any reason, are also. The book is about five hundred page long, five hundred pages,

I didn't put anything in there about the Labianca case and what I learned. We also withheld, our chapters on R K, assassinations on hand his eyes now connected to its twenty years or reporting out. I mean, in this our hand, assassination Robert Kennedy was Saint cops investigated at same district attorney's office prosecuted. It funds you wanna take a deep dive into that. You know, Sir HANS, amnesia of how we ended up in the pantry thy Jesus Christ. I actually filmed in episode of fear factor at that we ourselves being use. Now for that and I walk through the pantry, the outer you can walk the very area I was there too there you know it's torn down. Now they needed a public school. I mean they built a public school, but there is a crucifix carved into the floor. The cement floor. Where Bravo Kennedy Weber Kennedy fell out Jesus. So you think I remember them

somehow yeah, so the scum we kept out about. I have k, that'll be the next book. If we do about there's incredible power, you're doing another book Tom to the twenty more years alone. I know one thing I wouldn't do without my collaborator because he speeds at: do you get it done for you? Ve got so much formation or any writer, so the Labianca killings or the loudly honour killings. Again, this stuff events kept out again. Reason. The books are right, as one theory would conflict with another right. So if the dates were killed, four as co untold arrow high profile neutralize the left or drug deal gone wrong. What about the as well Bianca's were an upper middle class. Couple that lived in LOS Feliz and Thence wrote in the book, They were randomly targeted because Manson had been to the house next door, quite a bit when someone in Harold, true

lived there and knew the lay out and supposedly went to kill Harold. True first got a Herald truce House which was empty and then went next store tied up the lobby on a couple left the house and set texts and tax Watson and Patricia when Winkle unless event heartening to kill them What then thrown about what the investigators found out was it Lino the father had gambling debts. He also had embezzled too, a thousand dollars from his family company and the original investigation. The two teams were separate, the LAPD assigned to different units, one did the tape, murders which was much larger and wonder the Labianca and they amounts within a couple days that, even though the crime scene, where similar in same weapon model

stab wounds, blood riding on the wall? Hague pig? They didn't think they were connected. They thought that somebody had done a copycat of the first nights murders to throw off investigators. I make an argument, book that I think the police know exactly who did both matters from various right away. It'll be too long to get into here, but on the other since the light accumulated is in there. Another first want to say that, but then why were the Labianca killed? You know what Vince cabin out of the book was not only was the Euro lino in debt, his family, but he had a meeting on August nine with his family that day had told him he had come in his two brothers in law and his mother, who operator dead the gateway shop. It was called gateway markets, they had upon a string of supermarkets. It was pretty well to do, except that mean I'll get stealing all them

they had a meeting on August nine, where they were going to make them sign over all his shares, leave the family business and, on August nine he didn't show up. He went with his wife and her bow to a lake where Their daughter was visiting a friend, so the daughter and her frank, good water ski did even call him Let us say, wasn't showing up, came back that night and was killed with his wife thence that important meeting out. He also kept the depth and the degree of of Lena's out so And this is in my book within I'm enough room, you know I'd I'd mentioned in it's important part, but I don't talk. What I found out and why it was important. There's a much better case that that Lena was targeted.

You know the argument would be well who would ever higher Manson to kill someone. Well, you know, Manson wasn't is domiciled, seemed you now than they needed money. This is why I don't want to speculate, and again as even the chapter on the box, I can't really show you what I've got except the tire one other the argument that Vince made for why he thought The law Bianca's were killed by the man some family. I mean actually right with their first theory. It was a copy of the night before to throw off investigators, but it was the same killers. The police were wrong when they thought it was two separate killers which I don't think they did is. He said we could never establish a connection between the two groups of victim. So there were the Hollywood set, then the canyon sailor drive and then was leaning on his wife across down in those villages, and we worked so hard to try to determine if they knew each other at any income

thus tying them together. We couldn't that was a lie. Lino got as Erika from J C bring the victim. In J C brings appointment book. That's in the police reports that I got access to light, my first or second year when I begged persuaded a cop. Let me come go through his files and on springs till. She very well might have been to house to the sale of DR yeah yeah. So they weren't. They know that social circle. I don't know about the social circle, but he could of you know who know m J C bring was a very high profile hairdresser. He was and it was very expensive. It was very excessive charge. I mean it was expensive back then I think was just twenty dollars, but most men got the Erika for like a bug or to back then yeah wasn't looks this is and he was a hairdresser to the stars. He was Sharon's Ex boyfriend who was still supposedly in love with her a roman installer from him, and he was with- during the last night of her life,

yeah. I mean there's other stuff that didn't end up in the boat for space reasons and also my them, some important things I found out- and this goes to your question about why by this house, or why that house? That's not in the boat. When I talk about it before I found this out too late to get in the book. I was able to confirm that the night before Sharon T J C bring for Czech Rakowski inhabited he'll Folger were killed and sailor drive the four for them had dinner, Jays House down the bomb of canyon. That's all on the official story, I had them the dinner AMOS Butler, Maiden, stakes, And they ate them in Jays bedroom, so the four people were in the bedroom is seven the night before the murders, what's not in the official version, but I found in the police reports is J. Had gotten cable tv,

again let em. I predict that there was no cable tv, a nineteen sixty nine in LOS Angeles there was, it costs a lot of money. Only a few people had it, but you you had it J Sharon Abigail and avoid check how their ice cream deserved, sir, by AMOS the Butler he went back down stairs there we're gonna watch them. The and then all of a sudden there was a pat. What's fire power surge. The lights went really really bright and damned and they lost the cable. So J called Paul Greenwash Paul Green LAW was a law student whose father was Jays attorney and he and he was an electrician- that's how we support himself gone through law school and he had done all the wiring for J. So he called Paul Greenwood, and this is a there's another like nine o clock and if it can, you come over here. We're trying to watch a movie in the cable went out and I don't know there was a surge so path. I can't

got a day. I'm trying to get this day for months. I can blow her off and just like. Ok, as I will decide now so in the official narrative, nobody reported, the surge are losing the cable button. The official narrative J stayed there learn and voyage. I can gather Abigail, I think, went to the daisy, a club and then sharing is therefore a half hour and somebody took her home and then J went to the club. What I found out, from a police interview, a Paul green. While the kid who was called the ask, he told us to the police and any confirmed to me thirty forty years later, when I found an interview He said I went to the House Sunday on Monday after the murders, because my father sent me there to get a suit for data. Be buried in I got to the house and I wanted to see what it and to the wire. Since I put all the wires and- and I did a circle of the House and I found the wires cut because I pick them up and I

with them, and they were like four cables and three work, because these, deliberately? I could tell by the predation and angle and he told the police that he sets out the before they were killed. Somebody cut the wires I couldn't about a gardener because it was o clock at night and he said from what I had told him about the power source they call, the flood lights, got really bright and then damned that's. What happens when you do not know anything about the electricity, the police? didn't follow up on the roof they did. I couldn't find a record- and I found out What's going on, I said you know you're police, report which I have completely up- ends the prosecutions. Given that these people were random because Tax Watson, the next night, cut wires at the Tail House, the phone wires, and then they went into the house and killed everybody. So unless it's cool since that twenty four hours

before the same for people at a different location, how the house wires cut by somebody who might have gotten spook by the surgery, something they weren't random. They were being targeted. So that raises you, no questions about that undermines the other, though the randomness other that they were strangers are killers, but there's no conclusive thing. You can point to this, as this is the reason why they were targeted not now there was a book what a journey they have been on man, I'm very happy for you thanks. I'm happy that you D did it mean as it has to be filled. Mazes accomplishment. After all those years now we have this book, and again I mean more than anything in the World-

You ve got to the end of the bark there's a murderer and there that I think the man some family committed that was covered up by the law enforcement as it screwed up would have screwed up the prosecution. I want that looked into others, also, the and the book there, these tax Watson, Artie oh tabs, that I found out about two thousand and eight when what and turned himself and when he found he was alerted in Texas, he was at his parents house. They call the police called the local sheriff whose taxes, cousin and his parents and said he's one for questioning in these unsolved tape, martyrs, November. Twenty ninth: nobody had been identified publicly as suspects. The police were just starting to figure out that these people are killed their victims, to L, a p d flew down the taxes. Watson was brought into the station question the L, a p d put under arrest. They had to extradite him so that the share of their taxes cousin, put him in a cell

The family call up a lawyer bill boy who had actually represent attacks on our college case when he stole a typewriter from college in a prank build told me in an interview in two thousand and eight that that day he had tax, tell him the whole story or trials as we call them, about how we met. Manson why the murders were committed, how they happen. He said he spoke to me for twenty hours and he goes. I've got all those audiotape. In a safe in my office. He told me that in two thousand and eight he said he also does cried other murders that the family had come that hadn't been connected to them, so The way when you run into doesn't I'm working on it. That long, I thought other murders as important to me, but more important did he tell his attorney

why the murders really happen. You know why they pick those houses. You know this was the first account that was recorded. The next one was Susan actions, a week later after she had gotten her new attorney that the prosecution planted, they Audio taped her telling her version, which came, the official version so Watson's. Would today that by weak and when I, out there in that safe and he's telling me this on the phone I thy way. He he can't play that to me because that would violate Watson's attorney, climb privilege. But I have to ask sources or any chance, MR, what I could come down and listened to those tapes, and he said that's when he realization they told me all will ye I I couldn't do that without charge. Charles wasn't Charles Permission,

I got you still in touch with me now, so I write to him every now and then he writes me. He didn't represent him a trial after he was extradited, and I said, would you please ask so that began three or four me, pasturing them. He would never take the phone call and then, finally, after four months, I called up in sequiturs at answer, Mr Boys, in China on business today- and I said well, you have to tell him not gonna, wait anymore. I'm gonna write to Charles and tell him what he told me I go if there's other by I mean I didn't. Let them know that I was more interested in the mode of story, but I said if there's I was interested in this two others. Other bodies are victims out. There have never been connected, or even Women of the Romanians were uncovered causes a lot of evidence that they might have an people killed out in the desert and buried there. I go. I need to know then- and she said: ok I'll, tell him my phone rang literally thirty seconds after I hung up, and I had collar idea

It was from his taxes office. This is bill boy. You cannot call Charles and tell him. I told you that, as Mr Boyd, you haven't only by performance, because one telling you now you can't do that I go well. Are you gonna get his permission because you you just have be patient. I like can't wait anymore. He says, if you do, that new tell him all than I ever telling you. I said this all on tape. I take that causes. You didn't have permission to take a yeah, you gave me permission at the beginning and that's on tape took us God, damn you journalists. They hung up on me that journalists, loved in with all of you know, he said my wife's after his wife. Is it my way to do. I know how you people work. I go. You gave me permission it's on the audiotape, so he died six months. Taylor on the treadmill God I'll, be thinking about you and his is firm, went back. Growth, and then it was until two or three

years later and it's all in there the back story, but I finally want to try to get the tapes again and found out. He had died, found out that the tapes when the possession the trustee who was. We are waiting for the bankruptcy to be of our resolve and it took me three four months back and forth and to try to get them release the tapes to me and I made an argument for why they were protected anymore again long story short. I was sharing information with the deputy, DEA Los Angeles, who I thought was friendly. He was until he wasn't he was handling all the parole hearings of the massive damagon impact. Secure the woman who was in charge of the tapes trusty said its secure calls me and tells me that it's ok for me to release them to you and explains it's not a violation. I'll do it. I said

I'll ask- and so I asked me set out, will want to talk to her a great day. Later I got a call from secure because you're not gonna believe that she's releasing the tapes to us. I got you. Gee, I don't worry I'll, let you here when we get home, she asked I knew right, then I have lost any kind of control, And sure enough number one, the trusty had notified Watson's new attorney Watson put up a fight in court, and it's an you can read about the elections I reported on that for about a year now a year and one from the local court to the States Supreme Court, where the Judge finally rule that the LAPD should have the tapes they sent two officers down and get the tapes in two thousand and thirteen. They came back and then nobody at the days office would talk to me anymore. The promise that have been made be the first ones to listen to them, reneged those tapes

million journalists have made freedom of Information ACT request for them. They won't released on their locked up less about how the tiny watson he thinks it'll help her her parole hearings, because he thinks there's information on their to show that she's been telling the truth all these years he's gone to the States Supreme Court through other courts, they block them down twenty hours. First count of how and why these murders occurred and are not releasing them. I think it's because the truth is on their holy shit. Why is that truth: maybe I mean you ve got a wide audience, maybe other people will come forward. I would just be happy if some paper lake The time Ella Times Little New York Times Washington Post a sign, some reporters just to go through my report morning and see if I've made shit upper. If, at all,

plays out and then does a little bit of additional reporting on a lot of these people are dying in other get nor, but a lot of them are still alive and they could be interviewed by. I hope they do Tom and everybody go get this He asked Charles Manson, the CIA secret history, the sixties. Tam o Neill. It's amazing Tom, let me say one more thing, please. If people want to see the actual documents, I haven't Instagram and Facebook page, where I've put them up, there's also exerted interviews with bully I'll see man, Sir Kay some of the really important stuff I put the audio tapes up so what you can't get in the park or even on the footnote. You can see online. If it is Google, my name Manson, an instant M or Facebook therein is or their mascot

yeah, that's Charles Man and scroll down around HANS. That's thank you! So much July leisure logic, hands Gallia. We shook hands, you get. We get tested right before this out of the room higher than for common in Israel. Yes, I am happy that you don't have an eye now, thanks for, let me know what I mean I was so. It was a distraction for not being nervous about this worried about my test results. Well, we got it and we got them in a really appreciates man. That was really really a lot of fun. I really really enjoyed only very much appreciated by everybody. Thank you, friends, thank you between innovation and thank into our sponsors. Thank you too ass. Let it greens fantastic nutritional insurance. They deliver it straight to your door, taste great. And its high quality athletic greens. Maybe the single best thing you do for your health and success this year stress enough. It's very good! Stop jump over to athletic green dot com, Slash, Rogan and claim my special offer. Today, you can get a twenty serving pack for free, valued,

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