Andrew Huberman is a neuroscientist and tenured professor in the Department of Neurobiology at the Stanford University School of Medicine. He has made numerous important contributions to the fields of brain development, brain plasticity, and neural regeneration and repair.
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At seventy nine dollars with your first purchase. That's athletic greens, dot com, Slash Rogan, aright, my guess it I just have fun one fund, one in a very interesting and informative one, my guess today's Andrew remain. He is an american neuroscientist and tenured professor in the Department of Neurobiology at Stanford, University School of medicine and We talked about all kinds of things with the brain with the way the brain functions had a repair aspects of the brain de facto. Your eye. Balls- are a part of your brain. Did you know that? Will you do now? Please welcome Andrew Hubert The job will gain experience Andrew Caterpillar, very major, Let me go excited talked about this. Just sort for an introduction. Tell me what you do.
Someone or a scientist, a meaning among professor of neurobiology and Ophthalmologists Stanford School medicines are run a laboratory a little bit at each nor anatomy to medical students, but mainly my lab? Does research, so I've got students imposed ox and we're trying to figure out the answers to two problems. The first problem is how to regenerate the damaged nervous system, in particular the connections between the eye in the brain, to restore vision to the blind. So that's a big mission of ours and prevent vision, loss in people that are losing their vision, and the other thing that we're doing is we're focusing a lot on stress and other states of mind. So almost zest with the idea that all our states of mine come from the brain and the body and we're trying to figure out what happens in the brain embody when we're stressed and how to control what happens in the brain embody when we are creative and how to control it, an essentially for all states of mind, but rather than try and tackle the really high level stuff like flow and states of all. We're really focus on these states of stress
and things like focus and the ability to think clearly and do certain things athletically or cognitively, because, first of all, there's a lot of suffering there. A lot of people out there suffering from an inability to control their states of mind, and also there is great potential for people weren't suffering to be able to create and perform and do better things once we can understand how those states come about- that's an interesting way of putting it suffering because they can control or state of mind that that is the case. But that's not like a politically correct way of describing I guess I never thought about. I augur well. I It's fair to say that all our states of mind and body I say mind and body as the nervous system, which is the brain, the spinal cord and all that stuff. It connects star body about body, can our brain. So we really separate those but states of mine which include the stuff in our skull and the body. Those
essentially dictate our whole life experience right. So, whether not we're feeling com when we won't be calm within our feeling stressed when we'd rather become whether or not we are feeling focused We need to do work when without wish you and creative, when we only created all of that stuff this from the nervous system, the other organs or of the body or involved, but the nervous system. The brain those connections to really what's about. So if you see somebody who's stated oppression or you see somebody who is in a state of flow and creativity, you can be pretty sure that that's reflecting the activity of neurons in the brain it some the the idea that the body and the brain are inseparable. Most people who are physically active, except that and appreciate that- and they know that this is probably true, but there's a lot of you with that kind of wanted, deny that and concentrate only on the brain,
and particularly like their psychiatrist, that will prescribe medication before they'll prescribe exercise, and this is it's a controversial subject. That's what I meant by saying like that you're you are unable to control aspects of of of your brain or aspects of the way. You are viewing things the way you feel about things but yeah. So I think we take a step back. We just can't think about what the brain and nervous system and again nervous system includes all that we can see. The brain is special right. This brain there is something fundamentally important about the brain part, because it somebody who lets it has a limb amputated. It doesn't fundamentally change who they are. It can change what they can do, but there and there'll be aspects of their personality and temperament them, shift, but who they are hasn't changed or as soon as a brain. Lesion, where the brain is degenerating, that person is fundamentally different. So there is something special about the real estate in our schools. But that said, the job of the brain
is really to combine our experience of what's going on in our body with, what's going on in her mind and to react and behave, two things and adapt. So, if I may there to serve like we take a step back and just think their basic five things that the nervous systems responsible for doing persistency Sean sensation, is non negotiable happening all the time sound. Waves are coming in your feeder in contact with your shoes or the floor. That's all happening, and you can't control it, because we have sensors things in her eye, are Tong or knows our skin or years that take physical events in the universe. Photons of light, sound waves touch with you, no physical pressure on the skin and transforms that into one language in the languages, the language of electricity of neurons. Now perception is the next thing that the brain us and perception is all about which sensations we are conscious of. So if I say you're the contact of your hands with the table now, you're conscious of
that's just your perceptual window took a spot like it just go straight your hands so there, sensation perception and then their these things. We call emotions which our brain body states they tend to make us either want to get up and move or stay still. They tend to make us think this is a good play, for me to be at mentally physically or ownership this and then their faults which we could discuss in detail. If you want, which kind of arise spontaneously, they're kind of running, in the background over time, like pop up windows on a badly filter, an internet connection, but we can also deliberately have a thought like I can say that path, a paper to my right is yellow. I can side that, in the same way, I can do the fifteen, which is an action, so you got. Stations, perceptions, feeling, slash, emotions fought in actions and all five of those include the brain and the body, but how much brain and how much body is shifted by a kind of underlying, let's just think of it as a tie
like the level of the tight and that's the autonomic nervous system. So if I'm suddenly stressed, for whatever reason, my perceptual window is gonna shit my eyes are literally gonna change. Their focus. My world will become more like portrait mode, I'll see you in everything else will become blurry when I'm com ashes panoramic mission. I can see everything around me, so I better so my state, my internal state of alertness or sleepiness impacts. All this and in sleep, which is called the opposite. Extreme of stress, I'm not in relation to anything outside me. I'm not perceiving anything. I'm sensing things non negotiable, I'm not having real thoughts, but the thoughts are conscious, oriented in space and time and behaviors dont you're lying down sometimes paralyzed and sleep. So when I say states, it's really about this dynamic shift between what were perceiving and Howard, perceiving it, and we could go really in depth, and this or not, but states of mine are fundamentally I thank them.
To me anyway, are the most important aspect of tron understand how the brain works because ultimately, if you want understand mental illness and mental health, if he wants to understand high performance, which is only my lab, is really interested in you don't understand any of that. You have to understand how these state of mind and body relate, because the autonomic nervous system, which is strongly impact in the state, is in the body eating. It is the base, this other is connections between the brain and body, so you're analyzing people in stress states and are you doing cognitive functions, tests on these people and trusted verses, people and calm, placid states again, Are you? How are you doing doing like similar tests? Yes, there two states that we can take that whole. Tangle of mess that I just heinous threw out on the table and in simplified and say: look there, two states that I think if we could really crack, we could
We understand the underlying neural mechanisms and we could understand how people could get themselves into these two states. We would greatly improve human health and human performance. It constantly and physically Nokia and those two states are that the state of sleep, so not just the importance of sleep, had map on here. So your great sleeper searcher, not just that sleep is important, but how to get better at sleeping how to access sleep. So few lotta people struggle with that and the other state is clear com, focused those two states for my lab right now. Are the target states wit? You know they're so many states, but if we can figure out how those work and how to put allow people to put themselves into those states, I think it's my belief that will do humor kind of great service. Okay. So when you say sleep, the state of sleep like what techniques you talkin about to achieve the state of sleep or or do a better job of of sleeping, yes
when people come into my laboratory, we essentially start pressure testing them from the moment they walk in the door. We have a laboratory. We do something we'll work. We work on mice and we study states like fear and courage and we're interested in what leads to cut a winning in certain. Forms of competition between animals and these kinds of things, aggression, those kind of very primal states, we a human lab so people coming to the laboratory, we have an equivalent lab, essentially mouse lamp people put on VR goggles. We wire them into a lotta gear that allows us to measure things like heart rate. Breathing were measured pupil, size, I tracking and in some people, because they are nursery patients. We have access to the brain we drop electrodes down into the brain were cord from the human to make dilah. So you
whole, nor have they had a hole in their school through the neurosurgeons actually, which I am not tell us that yeah. It's no big deal right that that you know that basic aid look at the skull is kind of a poorly evolve device that they always tell me. You know you much better off the titanium plate there anyway, it's much stronger, so they We have a problem putting in the home the skull. These are search. These are patients that have other issues. Right, say this ain't you you're better off with a titan plate. Then the skull bone was concerned about concussion or anything it. If you really want to protect the brain you would you know you could build a better device to protect the brain, but isn't but isn't the real brain damage comes from the brain slamming against the inside wall of the skull yet and we are going, better with titanium. I mean this is neurosurgeons in there you know their own inside the, yet there are synthetic materials that you know they used to protect against sloshing around today. How much have hardly go with as they relate remove the top of someone's hadn't replacing titanium
large portions, lemon juice, I've seen windows in the skull that are, you know the size of an Iphone well a journey of the Globe oh, no, no, but now keep in mind that laser lid manhole cover for your brain. Basically really does that available online CAN Jamie looked at its look, they build already. We know a guy who used to work in my lab, whose now under whose now neural Lincoln Neurosurgeon one of those guys. Whereas if I can bring on the aid I hope or world they, I'm scared among other things I mean. I think that, while I say you know. All of human evolution is based on human neural, plasticity, the ability to learn and acquire new functions and the nervous system or where our biology kind of cliffs often cannot support us in what we want to do. We build technology right, and this is the idea, innovation steps in and says. I've got an idea to accelerate this process, and then you get cap.
Super genius who thinks it's no big deal cut giant holes in the top your head and stick these wires in there. I mean, I think, there's that version of it and I think what I haven't spoken of them directly, but except this one individual there. But you know first of all there not. I don't think so about large windows in the skull and monastic clinical made there behind this America quarter behind the ear route in through the bone there, and the other thing is that I think it's very likely that the first ten years of that work will be clinical in nature, movement disorders, napkins ends and, of course, because I said that they'll probably beat that by five years. While the quote that made me uncomfortable was when Ilan told me, you're not gonna have to talk to communicate anymore? I got Jesus Christ where we go with this will. This is interesting because some five, a good friend neurosurgeon at Ucsf, we know each. We know so each other since we're locate since we're nine, his name is Eddie. Chang he's got the world expert he's a neurosurgeon, but is also the world expert in speech and language, and what he's been
His decoding essentially figure. What neural signals command? The brain that allows to speak in a certain way, so let's say I I wanted to build a device that would allow you to speak eight languages tomorrow that you dont know today. The reflexive idea is oh that people like Eddie and people like me, and maybe the neural link folks- are gonna, go in and build ships that are not stimulate the hippocampus in your learn faster and do all that there's a whole other version of this, and it gets right back to this issue of brain embody. That per before before now, speech is a brain thing. You think about what you say, maybe for a joke, or here in it's in your head, but it's transformed, meaning those nerve signals go in the form of electricity to the pharynx and larynx, and you say things like hello. My name is no. My name is Andrew right. That transformation is happening at the muscle. So in theory, if I know that in English right and I know the nerve signals that come out of that area of cortex- that speech area, that's it
hello, my name is Andrew. Well, I can take those look at how it controls the Farrington Larynx and insert maybe a little box. Maybe I don't even have to put it under the skin two device that I hope so that when I say hello, my name is Andrew, but I diet to Mandarin or french I'll just say- and I can't do this cause big Mandarin or French below my name is Andrew I'll. Think that say it in English in my head. But my ferguson I will say it in Mandarin or French, but isn't the problem with the way language is structured and indifferent languages, just it wouldn't in Eve, I'm sure you ve read translations from Like Russian, the English sure. That's really weird, very different for English to Russian is even weirder, sometimes so. This is really eddies work, but because, where such good friends we talk about this a lot one of the fundamental discoveries that he's made- and I mention all these neurosurgery patients. They have epilepsy or something else, there's a reason for opening up the skull and going in there that we're not just just
There was a time couple decades ago when you can do this kind of stuff and there's a very interesting experiments that came out of that. Just because you could decide to study rage in humans and go in there and start probing around libitum is libitum ease, yeah, there's a the obvious. You really interesting, a famous and kind of sad history around that, but also some interesting data command. So you know patient or come in they'll. Do this record these areas and what what he's found it? So trusting, because if I let you see with that same statement, hello. My name is Andrew there's a neuron in my cortex that responds when I say that and when I want to say that But if I just change it slightly, and I say hello, my name is Andrew. I make it Austrian there's a neuron right next door. That's in codes that turns out there's a map of inflection, so regardless of language. There's a man
of its not quite meaning, but there's a map of intonation and inflection in the brain. So in theory, because that map is so regular across cultures, he's looked now enshrined in chinese speaking. People in English speaking people and people have a second language is even to ask some interesting gate about people who have up speak there. Knowing how I hate that shit yeah, that's a lot near where you live. Yet that's a San Francisco texting. Is it yeah? It's like the withered. One is letting you know that their one of the tribe, ok and we're all in this together and I think, like you, do, and you can trust me cause I'm on a regional or it might reflect a subtle brain damage. I think the d it showed that it's a distortion of the of the regular map. I think it's the same thing as a southern accent. I think you just fitting in with your environment, because I know people that have adopted that shit once they ve gotten into the Tec World and my cave fuck face. You didn't used to talk like that or the people there
to England and start speaking with a broken leg. Madonna, oh dear! You do that, yes, she I dont have pop culture carefully ass. She did you move it as Mr Saint Ya'Ll two weeks and give myself two weeks, some try out yardstick. Some of this stuff is learn are moving after the rumours that, but I guess ok, sorry, to hear that. Sorry for California, Congratulations, Texas, there. You know these maps have some irregularities across people because we were born into the world. You know we are not completely clean slate. There's a kind of a bull map that expects the world, including language, should be a certain way and we can expect that we're going to be born in China are born in France are born in California or Northern California. For that matter, so map is what we call semi malleable: it's not a rigid, concrete, hard wired map. So what makes you think this up speak is like damage will. So I asked Eddie.
This Mehdi Chang, my friend, this neurosurgeon, who is the yoke and premier world not kind of he is the world expert on speech in language in the neural transformations in how controls the franks all that stuff- and I said, what's with the up, speak thing he said. Yeah. You know. We see that sometimes and I'm concerned about that, and when a surgeon tells you they're concerning how to go here. What you concerned running there's something wrong with the map and there's nothing like this. So maybe that's you know it could be because about bringing in people. You know the brain is plastic as adults too. Not in the same way as plastic in childhood, but you know it You are forced to learn another language. Your book, your brain, will fundamentally shift neural. Plasticity is a real thing and I think It's interesting! You raise this kind of cultural component because actually it was eddies adviser gunning MIKE Mercenary was really the one who discovered adult plasticity, you're in the seventies and eighties and MIKE actually scientific, great grandparents David, you won't towards waste
one, the Nobel Prize for showing their critical periods, these periods of development, after which the brain cannot change and they had important implications for amply opium and I stuff murders and it came along and said you are, I don't buy that and he started doing experiments with students imposed OX where did they would create, is an essential need or contingency like if the animal doesn't eat. Unless it learned something, then the brain can age. If you break down learning events into a kind of smaller, more focused events, the brain can change as an adult at essentially any age and so The strongest drive for adult neural plasticity is focus its the ability to say at this is real the important it's making a soda straw view of the world. It's almost like being in a state of stress and the best way to do that for A young person in adolescence, or maybe even older, is these social pressures if their strong, they will shape and require the brain
I mean I look at what happened in the world right now and I think we are in a state of immense neural plasticity. Everybody is having to revise their understanding. What's going on so just a sort of put up a kind of Bobo some sort on the speech in language thing. I don't think brain machine interface is gonna, be all about sticking chips. Stones get back to the speak than ensure work. I think it's damage like what is what is it about? speak? What he just thinks that the map which shows up normally and in most this for the first time in human history, people who use this up speak its also, the first time in human history, people of type with their thumbs. I was listening to guide the airport bad when you go to the airport and these two guys the airport we're talking and ups beak and It was like as clear as day to me like they were letting each other know that during the tribe and in our member Jamie, had a tech problem once and he was
the phone with this lady, who is doing up speak when she's talking them and we both the teacher like a yak. It does kind of create a kind of vis. Like this like. Nor should I can't trust those people trust someone who talks like that, because I know you're on a regional like you not not what not most of us are clearly at least mostly influenced by the people around us, this just that it's like you, ve changed how you talk to fit in with this there's a tech world, there's tech language, that's tech, speak its English. But its text speak English, its letting you know, and their does seem to be about There's a lot to do here, spinal external trust them- I don't trust them. I think they're sneaky
try and get the data are trying at the data from Adam Beans. Halfway joking here, if you're legged up speak personally, he man, I've, always loved your show. But then you said you don't trust people talk like meat joking, but also stop doing that stop fucking doing that. I know what you're doing. I think I I think I would say that there's some distortion in the way they are using this map, but how did it start having it started with one really smart person, who is probably a little autistic who talk like that, because they are trying to keep it together and
Everyone else like I want to be as smart as John and then they start talking like that, and then it became a thing sort of like accents like them. I grew up in Boston Rank. They talk in a weird way and I picked it up and then went on. I heard myself on television. I hurt myself talk like that when I was nineteen- oh, oh, my god, I so large, a fuckin idiot. What is wrong with me, because I don't live there at that time for six years by adopting the whole hog, and I was what it what's wrong with me. Why am I I wanted to fit in? That's what it was moved there when I was thirteen and they tried to fit in inside, adopted this speech pattern and realize until I heard it liking, you YE list.
Type of yourself. You actually find out what you really sound like you like, I do you wash your performances have to watch stand up. I have to watch some of those podcast of trying not to unless it's important, unless it's like something that I need to watch over again, like a probably listen to this one over again cuz, you probably going to say some things that are you already have that I need to reflect on research, and- and you know this is a very interesting subject to me- is very important to me and there's many different parts of this when I wanted to talk to you about
really how people respond to damaged brains and what can be done to repair damage, brains and stress what we're talking about earlier states of stress and how they reflect on your ability to think and assess and an unresolved problems, because it seems to me that the me personally, if I'm tired, if, unlike vertically working out right again, if I'm workin out with like a trigger moiety trainer- and he has like a particular combination that he wants me- do if I'm exhausted so my mom key brain can't put that combination again. Unlike what do I do again left right, low kick body need the body elbow clench like what is it again like it's simple, it's very simple right, but if I'm tired, it's not simple anymore. So, what's going on like why, why does being tired have an effect?
on the way you perceive things and what memory and combinations of things you have to put together and that's nothing, that's just being tired. That's not your life depending upon it, which is a huge factor, and for light. There are many many fighters who do really well in the gym. When there's no pressure there comfortable, you look at them like, while the guy's incredibly skilful, he must being credible like when he fights must be amazing, then you seem fighting they just lock up like for whatever reason they can't. They can't rise the occasion there. They are due by the moment and whatever it is, whether it's the way their perceiving these threats. The way, your mind is just wired, The way they learn to handle situations maybe they have a series of bad memories that gets relayed every time. During the situation and they they they start concentrating more on failure than on staff
calm and trusting the process, which is a big factor. Your training is supposed to. Amount, almost in his Zen, like state and when you fighting the whole ideas to maintain com maintain the sort of center as much as possible and when someone's pressuring you and attacking you and talking shit to you in particular, what they're trying to do is weak in that center. What they're trying to do is break that up, so you can't have a happy place. There's no happy place for you and then you see people fall apart. You seem fold and it's fascinating, because it's not a physical thing. Like that, the physical body still capable of performing but there's something going on with stress where the brain can't send the orders to the body correctly and you're so overwhelmed with anxiety or fear of failure or just the
over welcoming reality of the consequences of making a mistake that you crumble. This is why were obsessed with clear, common focus, yeah or sleep as a good jumping off point four year, because we want virtue onto all the states, but that's a good jumping were jump and all over the place. But what's good, we started with sleep. So let's get back to sleep so leap and stress make a good sort of counter examples. So, but if we're just gonna focus on sleep, first sleep is the only time that your incomplete relation to only one thing, and that's yourself, It's also a time in which there is a cool the operation of the brain in wakefulness. This especially apparent in stress, but it's happening all the time. Where your brain is trying to do two things in wakefulness and arouse we're talking about sleep,
booster. What your brain is trying to do is pass things off to reflexive behavior, so I don't have to think about picking up water and I'm feeling about walking down the hall. I just do it, I just breathe. I just move id and I'm not conscious of it. There's another mental operation, which is very ending but extremely important, and this is encompass in a lot of different aspects of neural, circuitry and function. But the brain wants to figure out duration path and outcome. How long something in the last? What's the path to do it and how's it going to work those are the two things that the brain is mainly managing during waking states and, of course, its keeping your heart rate going your breathing on your digesting going, but that's all running in the background. When you go to sleep, your perception of space and time not outer space must that's what you think about, but space and time becomes an tethered. It becomes very fluid. So when you lie down to go to sleep at night and your drowsy, you stop doing
these duration path, outcome, analyses and if we have trouble sleeping it's because you're still doing what's the duration once the path. What's the outcome, your brains, looping, in that so when you go into sleep, it's the one time in which the brain can until other space and time like. If this were a dream. You know your dog could floating here and sit down the table in the morphine to somebody that you know from long ago, and we be ok with that because dream so that curious of sixty eight or ten hours, wherever you need, is essential for real setting neural circuits in the brain, there's some chemical events to but neural circuits, so that during wakefulness you can do duration path outcome like learning a new, more short term move towards the untutored aspect of it is crucial, absolutely crucial, and what how do we know this? We know this. So when people come into my lab, we study these two states. We put them into a vcr goggles and we-
deliver very real, not cartoons and animation, but very real. Three. Sixty video things. Like claustrophobia, your claustrophobic diving, a great white sharks. If you don't like sharks, spiders crawling up you, we ve your pain point. We bring you into a state of stress and we find in everybody in the is not necessarily a new phenomenon that your pupils dilate when you're pupils dilate the objects of your world changes. You are looking at the visual world, which is space physical space you start slicing time differently. If you ever been stressed, it feels like things are taking forever. That's because your boy body is sending your brain more signals per unit time. It saying, like my bodies, active my bodies active my bodies at my bodies, active think about when you're drowsy, your body, ascending fewer signals to the brain per unit time and what ends up happening is the bridge.
And uses physical space and use these signals from the body. We know this from neural recordings to start creating a space time really ship. The space time relationship really says. Let's just take the Jujitsu example: even I've never done jujitsu you're, trying to figure out where I place my hand where's my grip. How do I move my leverage? What am I gonna? Do you're, trying to sequence thing its duration path and outcome in sleep. The forebrain essentially shut off there. Some other things happen to, of course, and the brain start stiff drift and idle into these states that were duration, path and outcome, analyses become impossible. We also put people into deeply relaxed states, so we're studying three different ways to do that. One is hypnosis which is not like you known charm, hypnosis stage hypnosis, but medical hypnosis. My colleague David Spiegel in the department Psychiatry Sky World expert in hypnosis for pain management,
set our trauma. You can put people into hypnotic states which are very sleep like there are no different than sleep, but there like a shallow stage asleep. We also use particular patterns breathing respiration to bring people in two states that are sort of like sleep. It's like a very shallow level, sleep there completely a mobile or in some cases we we studied things like more traditional forms of meditation. All that's left less the focus these days. What we find is that the brain can go into states where duration path and outcome of cognitive processing physical activity is impossible in the brain starts to show wave like activity, that's very similar to sleep what I didn't tell you is that we also have people do a cognitive task, so wild in a very stressful environment like with heights or the being bombarded with snake experience or or we have a bunch of experiences, they require to do a cognitive task, which is the duration, Pat outcome, tat and then we put them into these states of pseudo sleep and then,
the evaluate their ability to perform in these tasks again and we what we found interesting? What we found is that their first of all, these sleep, like states can be very restored. I imagine that you mentioned afloat angrily, like maybe flow tanks, and we could talk about why the floating would put you into a pseudo sleep like state, certain subjects
has put us into sleep like states, naps and just letting the mine drift can put us into sleep like states and those sleep like states do two things that are very powerful one. Is they reset our ability to do these very taxing, demanding duration path, outcome, kind of brain functions as well? They allow people to access sleep more easily you're, so we want people to be able to get into deeply because nothing is as restorative his deep sleep, because in deep sleep and in this states that I'm talking about these relate deeply relax, states, duration, path, outcome, analyses are impossible and I think, being able to toggle back and forth between these states is really where high performance emerges. So, for the very stressed human being, whose suffering from generalised anxiety we study those types of patients. But in addition,
for people who are doing well in life, but our high performers over do some work with elite military with some athletes with David goggins out the lab. But you can't use him. He can't use him too. So he's a religion extreme outline right. He's too far on the outside, so what's remarkable about him, as he has figured out, how to tap into direct key can force himself into duration path outcome. Now I dont know his state while he's running, if he's relaxed, if he's agro the whole time I dont know, but he a bit of a mutant in the sense that, but he's created, and yes where it is, you re errand himself into figured it out. Yeah he's figured it out. He was not born that way. We know that what is most special thing about a million and also that is willing to share that he was at one point. I am a large fat lazy guy, you know, and then he became this savage. They say he forced his mind into that particular state will end the states that will allow people to go
Their often are fierce states, anxiety, states things that are extremely high pressure, because the the adult brain especially doesn't want to change. You know we're basic born. We get wired up by our experience. We get wired up were exposed to bring plasticity, is very passive for the first twenty five years of life. You know, if am if child you, the things you hear and see and do our shaping you mine he had come home saying things they ve never even heard before it's amazing and as an adult, you have to crack into that neural circuitry and reshape it, and why is that? What it? What is it about adults, because I My own theory- and this is just a martial arts based theory- the young kids learned so fast- they learned so fast, but we feel like it's, because they don't have jobs, they don't have a family, you take care of that. I have a girlfriend whose, on their back, they don't have bills and the IRS breathing down there.
Act, and so they can just think about it in their mind, if, if they have a hard drive right in there. They have a one terrible hard drive. They got like a hundred gigs for they have all this space. You could fill that space up a technique and movement and and it becomes their whole life causes thrilling and its exciting to learn and their body heels quicker. So they can. They can force themselves into situations with adults is extremely difficult to find the bandwidth to find the amount of time to really completely focus on something, because you have may distractions. What does that make sense that absolutely what you just described as it is a beautiful description of the top contour and below that what's happening is in in childhood. Whole brain, is literally more plastic, because there's more space for the neurons to move around making connections, the whole environment,
the chemicals that are swirling around in there are set for plasticity cuz. We were basically designed to come into the world and be customized to our experience. I mean if the human animal is exceptionally good at any one thing: it's that so, if you're an adult, say if you're a thirty five year old man with a family or thirty five year old woman with a family and a job, and you learn, a new skill. What is the best asked way to force. Your brain to accept these new patterns and learn this quickly by attacking two separate parts of a process. Neural policy is not an event: it's a process, and has two parts. The first one is. If you want to learn and change, your brain is an adult. There has to be a high level of focus and engagement. There is absolutely no way around this because so focus and intensity in that kind of that the goggins phenotype right. I think dog is of urban programme, right is like it's amazing. If you're gonna goggins this process, we need to do
is you need to, regardless of how agitated you feel have to lean and focus extremely hard now the real, for that is that there is a narrow chemical nor up, Efron, also called adrenaline same thing: that's released in the brain and body most people back off at that point because they feel this agitation, but we Remember that that nor adrenalin with designed to get us into movement, that's the purpose of nor adrenaline, to take us out of stillness and into movement and then the other thing we have to do is we have to take that elevated level of alertness and we have to focus it, and there is a second Neuro modulator called a seat of Colin, which is so created from this little structure in the base of the forebrain, when we visually focus on something or other case of maybe, if you're doing auditory learning. When you focus with your auditory, attention can be positive for so a pseudo Colleen you could taken a supplement and northern Efron. You can actually get from float ice tanks gigging get it from.
Crowd chambers. You can get it from crowd therapy. So what using those strategies of taking like acetylcholine pseudo Colin is actually an alpha brain supplements. My company cells, when you take that along with float, tanks and doing or excuse me crowd chambers and do some intense exercise or whatever you trying to get good at with intense focus. Could those things exist? a rate that process almost certainly increases the plasticity, the rate of plasticity. So you would A man of some was turning a better at something like a cry of chamber would actually accelerate the process of learning yet so yes, so so there and for that though, but you don't necessarily needed a crowd chamber what you need, or so we have these requirements. We need urgency and focus to trigger plasticity right, that's one part of a process of, and mention the second part yet neural plasticity is triggered when urgency and focus combined a pseudo is released for their fishing, not
out there. It's called the nucleus beside us, but that doesn't matter is alone, apartment of neurons in the base year, forebrain that doesn't like to release a pseudo calling on a regular basis. It's a screen its greedy and it does want to use that with your child. It old brain, your brain with exceeding calling, but as an adult thirty. Forty eight of dies because does the you know mother Nature designed us to learn what we need to learn and then do that reproducing die? I mean not be Peru, dark about it. But I would say evolution is now about us. It's about the offspring, yes, that kind of percent. You know it incitement about doubts about their offspring, exact, never ends. We are being manipulated from the ins. Yes, I mean that's what it you know kind of drew me into a biology. Is that all these complex things you see in the world? It's all internal, so you know if you get urgency, it can come from
what you gave it is. It is a shining example. This right, you can sit there and just ramp up your level of urgency through purely psychological means. You could take an ice bath, you could do high Kennedy breathing anything that brings your level of alertness up. Can I ask you this? If you were going to try to improve your ability to get better at something when we you use that ice bath or the cry of therapy. Would you use it before would use it afterwards? Definitely before afore, before learn. What we're talking about is a two part process. The first part is the learning trigger the learning triggers gated, two things adrenaline, which is often Norman Efron same thing and a calling and so you need that level of alertness up and you need he d calling released at the look action in the brain that corresponds to what you're trying to learn. So things like supplements and certain nutrition regiments can assist the process for sure. There's no question about that things like I've actually BC.
Caffeine will bring up the adrenaline and kind of anything to raise that alertness. Doesn't nicotine as well, nicotine has sums of a young new Tropic prof benefit to not not encouraging people to smoke, but you know you could taken various forms, particularly gum. I know people taken in gum just for the New Tropic Benefit yeah I'm not encouraging people to take anything. But there's a very, very famous. Nobel Prize Winning neuroscientist, who I went office tourism in New York and keep chewed seven pieces inaccurate during that half hour meeting what is going on here and he said well, first of all, it increases plasticity and, second of all, he has the belief- and this is not a clinical study, but he thinks that it can also hold off certain forms of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. Didn't Bertrand Russell, wasn't your famous smoker wouldn't even know I don't know. I think I think you wouldn't even go on a plane unless otherwise
smoking section cuz, he couldn't imagine not having his pipe for a certain amount of time will creative. So you know when I think when smoking became less than creatives really suffered, because it's very clear that so Nicorette is nicotine and the a seat of calling binds to the nicotine receptor. So when you take nicotine in cigarette former Nicolet form you're, actually increasing the release of a seat of the action of a pseudo calling on the brain yeah, I don't smoke Grants- but I have in the meantime I have is before- shows, because I have friends at comedians that would small gonna give me one of them things some. If you'd see what's going on and I smoke does. I won't do get high off. These things is crazy, particularly if you don't smoke cigarettes you get is really weird high. Will you receptors have never seen that level of nicotine before right? A like that's exciting yeah yeah, and so it is for those moments. You know your your seat. Appalling is like a spotlight brings your vision literally into this more kind of portrait mode, reconceive more like
narrow window of what's going on their behaviour waste access to before a fight. You know somebody is really rare. Drop their world. Is there not seeing everything their problem? I've never done the walk, of course, but probably walkin onto the octagon they're, not seeing Alba the color, the head of the woman in the corner. You know they're not relax their hyped up, but that's a trigger for plasticity. Because the brain needs some way to queue, this plasticity prostitute. Let itself no cause it's self learning organ. Let itself know that some things really different. That's adrenaline something's changed. Then there's focus what changed so in that you did too example gave earlier it's the ability to focus on what what the sequence is, what happens when and ok? I did that correctly right into that correctly, but that's duration path and out again and having a suit of calling a up that sets the plasticity trigger. However, that doesn't Gary T that those synopsis going to change it does not mean that you're necessarily gonna learn well now what
guarantees that that process will be converge into literally the change in the connections between neurons sometimes new neurons, but mostly the change in the strength of the connection, so that eventually you don't have to dude duration path. I'll come you can just be reflexive about. It is states of deep sleep and any state where you're not doing duration path outcome. So we know from two recent studies, some of this was done by my lab or by other lapse as well in humans, which I think is important to distinguish between mousing human went where we can. A lot of the changes in these brain structures occurs after learning, during deep sleep in particular, slow wave sleep, but it also occurs during periods
of naps and shallow sleep or even just periods where people deliberately decompress, where they're not focusing on any one thing in particular. So if we were gonna kind of operational as this process, it would be focused intensely have an intense period of urgency and then access the deepest rest. You can wear you're, not thinking about anything we're space and time becomes very fluid, so stress. In that case, post accuracy eyes or learning session, would actually hinder your ability to grow and better absolutely, and elite performers likely militarily athletes. I'm sure you are familiar with this they under stand that the ability to toggle back and forth between these highly high attention, all states and deep rest is not just the key to performing what you can already what you can already do. It's also the ability to get
over time you, you know, I think, goggins again as such a remarkable example, because it seems like it's all gas pedal, but I'm guessing. I've never asked me about this, but I'm guessing that he has his ways of recovering so that he can remain in that heavy gas pedal all significant amount of the day. I don't know about that. Maybe he's just all gasped, I think he's all gas power will be. I mean he eats well in you know he does sleep, but he prides himself on his ability to just go: let's go motherfucker and just force himself to do it. It so impressive. Big As you know, I think most everybody struggles to try and get themselves in action. I mean we. We know that actions are the key to neural plasticity. Maybe you can do some mental training and that can be powerful. You can do meditation. You can learn to access sleep at all that stuff, but ultimately, to get better at anything. You gotta erupt.
Whatever that is neurosurgery or runs interesting. You say that because that's what he does his mind he's getting reps in and he described, These causes armoury your mind. You have the army, your your mind, and you know, like huge e, tell the story once about being on a plane. Some football player said you know how do you you know you? How do you keep that dog alive inside you- and he goes. It is like a dog yours, my fucking dog, by feed, my dog. He goes in that feed him again that motherfuckers always hungry. He goes always Hungary's, never not hungry easily. You gotta be that dog you gotta always be. They are so he's always there, and- this doesn't mean is not pleasant guy, I love the guy. I love him what that means. You he's great to have dinner with his fun. You good gotta, be around he's not like an asshole, I think, he's fund. But when its go time here Fuckin read the aid for the David Gardens.
The tunnel outlining or seven reddening wake him up for more time to write. Let's go mother fucker, you know stay hard. That's. Where does like all day long? He is every bit as intense is that public persona when he came out and labourers come interesting as we just built this great white shark experience and gone down to Mexico Weed Dover. These sharks and my friend, Michael Mahler, he's got this whole thing where we could leave the cages, and we did all this news. Finding crazy and probably look stupid frankly, but we bring it back. We build this. We are stimulus and he and thirteen guys came in, and you also, explain what we're doing and we show this boxing on the screen, and- and he knows I like sharks and I'm okay- I will give you something else and then we go through the whole thing and am explaining how we. Why are people in, and we record from the brain? I said so who would like to try the sharks David Argo like just hee hee, I wanted to be first, and I realized Ok, I wasn't sure voting. That's just that.
He is just if there's something that creates the scent of agitation, that's a signal for him to go forward to know he doesn't the summer's I dont. He goes to Montana Fight Forest, fires. Does he really yea doesn't even make any money amazing? He just goes there he's rich and he gets fuckin dropped off in Montana in the Woods camps out there and fight for fires with a bunch of other savages and he does it to keep his brain hard. It's fantastic! That's the he's the real deal he is the real you imagine you got millions of dollars in the bag and you like political fight, forest fires all summer, just Stay hard, We would have done that when I was a teenager to impress girls, but I don't I don't know these forward he's doing it for him fuck. Well, that's the thing is, I think, that's that that authenticity is of real thing. I mean there is a kind of a third kind of seek. There is a secret sauce in this whole matter
and this is kind of what brought me to some my lab. You know we do work with typical people, but we also and do some work with people from its former community in domestic and foreign special operations, we interested in this process for reason. How can you leverage the nervous system to build better longer, lasting warriors so really interesting question? could do that with brain machine interface. You could do that with you, can imagine doing that with drugs or with you, Sir, taken nutrition all that, but that since then a system sits at the foundation of any of those. We start to think about this problem. There is actually another element to which is the reward pathways involving dopamine. So you asked about kids like why they can learn all day long, so their brain is. Very different, but it still needs some degree of focus and they still need to get their sleep. They still have to obey those two rules of this process. But they engage in something else which is really powerful, which is play
out of their learning- is through playful exchange, especially with the little kids like a kindergarten nursery school and then they get older. The social dynamic can become a harsh, but they can also be really pleasure for fun. So the molecule, opening is a really misunderstood molecule. We all make it from an location in the back of our brain and people. Think of it like reward Like I got a bunch of money, or I you know, did a great performance. Dopamine is responsible for that feeling of feeling great, but in addition, dopamine is what's released any time an animal or human thinks it's on the right path and that very subjective so. This is not, and I wanna be really clear that this is not positive thinking or you know this
see greater telling us off the are performing well, even when you're not rattler, give you're a writer and you break into no courthouse, but you feel like you're on the right path. You're gonna, get a release of dope remain heavy reason. If you're yeah, even if your committing a crime- and you really probes shouldn't- be doing that mother Nature built these systems, adrenaline cedar calling dopamine to be very generic in terms what can act of it on purpose yoke. Cocaine will cause a tremendous release above me, so we methamphetamine the problem is it sets focus on just getting more of that thing room so Doberman has evoked through play its evoked through humor, right if you ve ever just been working like mad, or you see this in noting guys know this really well there. You know because they tell me neither can be in the worst situation and somebody will crack a joke and all of a sudden, it's like you have energy,
you're not going to be like a giant that wasn't your kid, a gigantic! It wasn't cause you're, whatever that's neural energy, and that neural energy is doping. Is that what Happens when you hear a great song and you get pumped up, as are the same thing absolutely and the rest, doping is so powerful in this process of neural plasticity. Is that dopamine has the ability to buffer nor adrenaline? so that stress that you feel when you're in effort is very hard for most people to keep that going. But when you, Irish and why they shot. I mean internal release of Dobermans through humor or through the sense that you're on the right path. Let's take the fight example where it stressful and you're getting been down, all son you land one, are you do something properly in the other. Guy starts to timber a little better, shuffle low bit. You gain a chemical advantage and it comes into forms one. Is it triggers marking of the synopsis that likely will change? Later? We rarely forget the events associated with open
for that reason, because they signal or whatever is happening now that was good and in it she do- that they start pushing on the level of a pseudo calling. Excuse me nor adrenaline in the brain stem, and this is crucial because. There was a study that came out two years ago, not from my group that asked. Why do we quit? You know either you set, eight hundred or even five pounds on the bar there. I can't lift it so no time at that kind of quitting about a long run. Why do I quit if I'm not injured what actually causes quitting wended? When do we decide that something is futile and it turns out that forever bit of effort and even of ever lived in a glass of water or running up the hill or in a fight their little bits of his of nor adrenaline adrenaline that are released in the brain embody and there's a counter there's a cell type, which are called Glia, which
women's glue in Latin. These cells are paying attention to how much more of an effort is coming and with it hits a certain threshold. The brain stops voluntary control over the muscular says, that's it quit and their these beauty experiments where they manipulate the visual environment, so that this isn't there, sir. That this is an lack of muscle fuel, this it or liver fuel, this is lack of neural fuel. Dopamine pushes back that level of nor adrenalin, and it gives you more gas. It lets you go further. And you see this through teamwork when you feel like you're supported when you're cohesion humor play If you know, if you are in serious effort and it's just things are going terribly, maybe I've never done come are you trying to write a joke? I just frustrate and then suddenly you're, just gonna laugh at how ridiculous the process is theirs, and of loosening or a lightning, and you have more energy that energy is reductions in up enough and so
I dont know how data goggins has done it, but everyone does this a little bit differently, but it could be- and I'm speculating here, of course, never done mineralogy, but David is somehow figured out that the leaning in process for him is the dopamine trigger like there is a kind of sick o thing about the way he talks about it like it's like up the it's a little bit masochistic and for him. Maybe it was that way and is rooted in his origin story for other people. They find this in purpose like that. You're doing this, for you, kids or you're doing this for somebody else. I think that the human animal has a capacity to the Bush House in a capacity to focus as fast. You learn at all ages, but these gates on plasticity are set by certain work. Once and you're gonna look out there and see all the stuff about sex, g and although self help and wellness stuff now manoeuvres just look at the lens of everything through new chemicals in science, but it all boils down to a couple. Basic chemicals and systems are what we call circuits in the brain,
What's it a machine nor adrenalin and Northern Africa, yeah great question so same thing, so adrenaline, and and Europe and Africa. Excuse me: adrenaline an epoch Efron same throwing same thing, nor benevolent and nor adrenaline. Those two things are the same. It was a naming war. So scientists are like they have egos some more than others and there was a naming battle, and so, if you got Australia, they caught one thing in England they called it another and basically was too labs, discovered the same thing and it was a pissing competition or how confusing for everybody else exactly and you can find that over and over and over again in science, because no one ever comes in with the gavel within like nomenclature. Comedian says we're just gonna call this nor journal so much easier. So it is with that. Nor up enough friend, like I've, fucked up a hundred times will and it gets worse because like using about the autonomic nervous system in their like sympathetic, parasympathetic sympathetic sounds like sympathy, but it's actually distressed state. Do you think that you would benefit from data
from real world situations in a much more comprehensive way. Then you would, from these virtual situations, you're putting people and because I you know, we have a vcr thing out here: we have a oculus, it's pretty cool, there's one of em where you walk on a plank, and you really do feel like this place is over like it's on the sixtieth floor of a building and it goes out a window and you really do feel like you're kind up, but you know you're not right. It's a different there's a difference. Right you get a little bit of it, but you don't get the real thing like like being in the jungle and the leaves part in this area, he'll tiger in front of you. The feeling that you would get would probably be you, you probably wouldn't be able to recreate it with virtual reality is some party or brain. That knows this is bullshit yeah. So we have three three, recourse to explore this. One is the virtual reality and virtual reality can give you what the scientists call presents. The sense that you really in that environment.
That's mainly visually and auditory driven. My colleagues, me balancing who's on the I'm in the medical campuses on the other campus. He studied this a lot like what are the requirements for getting people to feel proud Since so people come to our lab, they don't think they're underwater with a shark unless they're afraid a great white shark for that moment where one of these guys is coming in and opens its jaws for that person is every bit as scariest real experience nobly. If you look at their ought in what we don't know, can we put them in the water, letting I just can't imagine, will in recent years close. I agree. I mean here's, the challenge we needed to bring. We need to stress people we needed to do it really well for a lab, and if you look historically that experiments that came before hours were really lame like picture of some with a knife in their arm for some people, that's rose for some people that scary, but that's not really fear right or they'd startle people, but I can jump out of you
to you, but I can jump out from a typical person with a teddy bear and they'll get startled. Does a marriage teddy bears that's different? That's not fear, so The are allows us to access states, the more sensory stuff that we can include the better There are some now include smell. We have it we're working with augmented reality, so law, which is a little bit like the star. Worse thing of projecting a chess board. That kind of thing we find peoples. Pain points, meaning we find the places in which we can trigger their autonomic function. We sir run studies outside the lap, so I will lie scale, study running right now with David Spiegel, my colleague, and psychiatry, where people are equipped with whoop bans for monitoring sleep, working expanded to include some other devices that actually allow us to look at heart, reverie ability, body cohabitation in some other things and some interesting ways, but also body positions were tracking them. Twenty four hours a day and those people are coming back to US levels, distress, life events, that kind of thing, so this is outside the laboratory, but
We can do this in real world essentially and those but were using interventions which are mainly respiration based so which are looking at specific patterns of breathing that trigger particular states in the brain stem that allow people to either sleep better were buffer their stress, and wants to life events better. So this isn't really breath work as much as it is teaching them specific patterns abroad. Being that capture these neurons that switch their brain states really is fascinating, that these periods of rest are crucial to learning and developing their absolutely crucial. They are there every bit as much a part of the process as the actual trigger of that, and I was the athletes, the people, the high performers, it I have encountered at all really good, good at accessing those states. Also, is it? Is there a desirable ratio, so you want to focus as long as you can focus well and then probably a little bit law
because there's also plasticity of the circuits, the control focus so as you so going back to your jujitsu example. As you get to the point, you're, starting to not be able to do this? Duration path? Outcome stuff, which involves motor movements and mental thinking, you're, saying you're, getting tired your literally going into a sort of sleep like state where space and time I'm duration path outcome becomes hard. What you can do at that point is to start buffering the nor nor Adrenalin Orban effort. Now I don't know which one to say, but I'll ll just keep going with whichever reflexive and you can start to buffer there. Through things like humor through things like setting the urgency higher. That is at a time to relax and take her out. That's a time to ratchet up the intensity if you want to grab a stronger trigger so, but that Pirie can't last infinitely in the question is how Well, we know that you can do more short bouts of that each day than you could ever do one long, long bout. We know that she can maybe two or three bout too that a day or a few are doing it
several times a week, you basely wanna dose it about twice as much as deep stress as you do. The deed focus ask me deep sleep as you do the deep focus. So, if you, How long is training regimes go, but part of that training is reflects it for you. I wouldn't count that in the learning process that, because its dialed in your nervous system, but at the point where becomes challenging a clock, sort of starts and when period ends, I think at least double the amount of time of depressed. If you want to maximize learning, there's been a lot of work done on visualization and learning through visualization and they found that you can get a similar benefits to actual physical training, obviously not with the insurance industry. And all those things but turns of skill learning, they get a similar benefit from an equal time of visualization. What what are you tribute that too like how? How is visualization? How can you learn thing?
through visualizing. Yet so that's visualizing is setting the brain through these duration path, outcome, circuitry loops. It's it's running the script essentially and it's important to move the musculature, it's important to say the words. If you say you know, learning and Motor Schuyler learning a movement language use me, but at some level brain, doesn't really know. What's going on in the body, it's the command centre, except what signals it receives back from the body and so if the visualization is intense, the brain isn't completely convinced. But it's pretty convinced that you're actually experiencing that thing and were her. It's a little bit of your own internally, driven virtual reality in what you're doing right and see your cream, and so I think mental training is powerful, but there's no replacement for repetition. So what about you? Obviously, physical training has its limitations in the ear your bodies ability to keep doing the movements. You're gonna get tired
you sure, you're gonna break down, would it be more beneficial to get more rest or to be more beneficial to Gatt rest, but also span a significant amount of time. Visualizing We haven't looked at visualization, specifically the one thing that is very. Close to visualization, which is very powerful. Don Neuro Imaging studies, so legitimate science, I should say, is hypnosis hip crisis is really really unique state and this is of mind and body. Balloon have passed many times and am very interested in hypnosis because of the work or Spiegel and the incredible success that he's had with pain management, smoking, cessation, these kinds of things Hypnosis is a state of deep relaxation, not unlike sleep, but also deep focus. So it's very, unlike any other state of mind, you're either
Julie, asleep or your focused or somewhere in between contracting back and forth in between but hypnosis is a deliberate narrowing of context. So the person nor the audio script is bringing you into a state of mind that centred around particular types of events but you're in depressed, and the idea is that you're, taking that plasticity, process of focus and urgency and then rest and your combining them into a single session, and so hypnosis and deep hypnotic states are the are the place where neural plasticity can be accelerated. So when you say hypnosis what kind of session Are you talking about and how often like saved your an athlete like, let's say, maybe your a basketball player and you want to get better at basketball. You train as much as you possibly can, but there's limitations that you sleep as much as you possibly can. How often would you recommend someone doing some sort of the hypnosis session to try to improve it?
skills. Probably one world depends on how intense their training, as for some of the people and doing work with in enough Lennox and and and the military committee you might do you have extremely demand wives, Ryan and certainly for the military forces you to high risk high consequences or even when there are known to non deployment. So. Under those conditions, may be every day. Thirty hypnosis every day, thirty to forty five minutes, a replacement for some other standard form of nap or meditation. I mean not destroy lumped on top of that, so the standard, eight hours sleep and then, on top of that, some sort of meditation forelock. Thirty minutes liquid yeah there's on a process of doing this. We have a script that we use in our lab happy to send it to you that takes you into these deep. We met sort of relaxation states their sort of meditative, some who can self hypnosis by induce the Samuel call them intentions may like that cause. It sounds a little bit too much like uncomfortable set of yoga
says of taken when these Darwin, though the guideline no really what that's about and they make use complete declarative sentences. It feels weird to me: that's just my own bias other mean they make you set your intentions are good. I address this in the new or say it out loud bore, oh no, I would not allow it send me other room even those that like. If they combine the speak, that public intention morale, then I'd. Then I'd file, a complaint but they even sometimes it's really not sometimes even making work pronoun into it you have to say Joe you anytime, any german, fake pronoun like one of the ones at that now you might, I dont even got a sudden Stanley, probably probably we're all going to be required to some point, maybe not maybe not hypnosis is
four and I think stage hypnosis has done a great disservice. No disrespect to the state shipments is out there to detract from the power of hypnosis. Is a medical tuna high performance tool for a year? I, my own personal experiences that I didn't understand. What hypnosis was my first experiences with hypnosis were there Frank Santos, it's a famous in the Boston area is a very famous comedy hypnotist and he was an actual hypnotist with wood hypnotized people getting to quit smoking things along those lines but then would do this comedy hypnotism show where he would get people on stage and man like we would want in a bunch of other comedians would go watch it every week, because it was crazy. He would put them under there definitely under, and they would think they were having sex. They think they would be in a boat. They think being the water they. It was weird. It was really weird watch and I was
thought. It was like really weak minded people. My thought was an obsolete twenty one at the time and annoying, but my thought at the time was: ok they're certain people there just they have nine vault AIDS and you can t recommend doing anything in that explains carts and a lot of other shit and televangelist and all sorts of nonsense. It should be like really obviously fake to people, but they fall into it. And so that's what I thought. Those is really dumb people that he was stricken Wilson. People are more easily hypnotized than others, and it's it's actually pretty predictable. There is actually a test that we could do right now that rotate yeah, so do it to me I can use the one that that Spiegel taught me, which also you look up at the ceiling and you're a look and now trunk in closer eyelids you're, not very hypnotize, look up on water and then close here, so probably not as intolerable. So for people there very hypnotize able zone
yes, it is Hypnotizer, at least, if it's not that I am stamping it, and nowadays I just put a Wikipedia entry it'll, be there? Oh, no, I don't I but I've heard species are susceptible to hypnosis susceptible to hypnotize, hypnosis. I asked Spiegel how you measure this kind of back in the envelope curbside consult as they call it and people who are more hypnotize. Will their eyelids will flutter in an attempt to go down? The reason is that a lot of hypnosis is anchored on the ability to go into these deeply relaxed states, And some people's autonomic nervous system gets locked in a state of more gives me other more attention and kind of high. Levels of alertness or levels of sleepiness. Think about like a seesaw together, We really stress that when you're really stress like you're, analyzing, timer, analyzing, space differently, duration path, Alan
what's gonna happen: Windsor Gonna happen real emergency, the other state would be sleep right, that's the other extreme duration, path and I'll. Come are essentially nonexistent. Space and time are fluid whatever The hinge in the middle of that seesaw for some people is very tight. They get locked over here or locked over there. They can't get the energy or they can't distress. Hypnosis involves, taking somebody from a state of alertness like you and I are now and bringing into a almost sleep like state now for some people their autonomic nervous system is in tat willing to do that. It's almost like the hinge on that sea size locked, it doesn't want to budge, and this fluttering of the eyelids is reflective of peripheral nerve believer. Not that's rep that or originates in the brain stem. That's a central part of the autonomic the system, the other thing that they'll do you ever see on this stage, hypnosis, where they'll, how people look up at the ceiling and though sometimes shine a light in their eyes were they'll like have them luminal light there
looking at how how we call it label, but how rigid or lay while how willing to move the pupils are because autonomic arousal impact the pupils of the eye. So it's an external read of what's going on in the brain lot happier don't know this, but your eyes are not connected to your brain, your eyes or brain that aren't they our central nervous system and their bring your neural retinas that you use were seen things around you or part of the central nervous system. They are the way that you no one to be alert and to be asleep and they are two pieces of brain that during development got squeezed out of the skull and placed outside the scope. Woe, the only two pieces of your brain that are outside your skull. Assuming that you don't have some sort of damage, TAT is fucking crazy. Girls, eyes are a part of your brain yeah and that's why? When people tell me eyes iser the window to the solemnly Oleg. I don't know about souls, but they are definitely your brain. So when I look at you and
where someone get we're, not nobly church pupils right when the hypnotist, I should say, looks at the pupils they're saying you know the pupil side, is a direct read out of that of how loose that hinges so when they shine light in someone's eyes and they take it away and Ngos that so weird that you can look in some his eyes and there's something about what you can kind of tell what kind of a person they are in some ways or at least tell how their thinking like if someone comfortable being around you, you could see it in their eyes, if you tried to write that down like what are you saying, you tried explained someone good luck, good writing that down. I don't know what that is a guy, but I know one someone's full shared right like us, line. A mayor. Bullshitting me always aware, but am aware alot will and its not just their individualised, but is also the way that they focused their eyes. So you know the myth of the Cyclops Right and one I had that. Myth has origin,
and the fact that the Cyclops was one dimensional anger, and it turns out that when we are experiencing an increase in on it the girls are so let's say we decide we're gonna fight, we decide we're gonna, learn or maybe even just we're. Gonna write something important, something's important our eyes: the pupils change shape, but because our eyes dont really move in our skull. They actually do. It's called fogey eight. In a little bit, they there's an. I must the church reflex that gets triggered in, and so you can see that sometimes in people that are getting ready to fight their eyes, actually brought inward that triggers another neural circuit to increase levels of autonomic, arousal and starts pawing resources internally fuel resources fuel for you- know bouts of of intense stuff. Whatever that intense thing is be when we're relaxed like we view horizon or we're just walking or were in what's called optic flow. When things are flowing past us, we go into panoramic vision. Some panorama
vision you go out of that soda straw view of the world and you start being able to see the corners of the room, the sealing the floor, and, what's and that's a relaxed state, so sometimes we're even subconsciously, perceiving how stress to relax. Somebody is not by necessary their pupils, although that my play into it It certainly has a role, but whether or not based on your prior. Kind of intuitive knowledge about that person, whether or not there like Cyclops or whether or not there in panoramic vision- and this is important- does, it changes the way we perceive time if we are Cyclops Vision, soda straw, view that high intensity. We tend to do too. Things one is we tend to be more in tune with what's going on inside us. We start here that the brain does
their thing, which called interception it's like pay attention to what's going on inside US forces outside us and when were stressed time outside of seems to go really slowly. It's like your it in the security lie the airport and you need to get your flight two very different perception of the person in front of you and what they're doing than when you relax need my time and that's because outside events start to feel slower this is why, after a car crash, people will say you know, oh, that everything was in slow motion or I've never actually looked at fighters, but I visited the Yossi trains are Duncan french I went out there and talk to him about this shot out Duncan yeah. He's he's done some pure. His graduate thesis is like this beautiful work related to this, although not directly, has important implications for this, which is when you're in these high adrenaline states you park time differently, and when I hear about fighters who knows it like being able to time the fight or they it's on
like they can see things coming in slow motion. That's because their internal level, arousal, is really really high, but it feels like relaxation. So there's like sleep be not feeling so good. Everything feels like it's going on really fast. I can't deal with life, then you ramp up your level of intensity and everything outside you feel like it's going a little slow or maybe is that why come a pretty high intensity guy when I'm in New York and I feel great police before the covert thing people walk, announced. You're finally feel like the tempo is kind of match between internally. External, but that why, like that, those high functioning people enjoy Manhattan, why neurotic people like zero lives, you take an erotic person, you put them in Manhattan, they like yeah yeah, they love it. Yeah, a lot of my friends, are neurotic they loved their yeah. I come from Eric Lineage M constantly trying to get to the other part of the self employed, but I get it
I get out of the Subway New York and, unlike the walking speed that the speed of everything it just, I finally feel like internal to external match. Does this thing the connects the fluttering of the eyelids to being able to be hypnotized more easily. Does that coincide with a personality variable, not them where I ass David, unwanted, throw something out there. That's wrong. I'd have to ask there. There is a whole set of personality traits and coping traits that relate to hypnotize ability, there's a small subset of people that just cannot be hypnotized. You came out. You can't really force hypnotism on people visit, but is it they cannot or they are not willing to let themselves be his. I've been hypnotized. My friend Veni Sherman. He works with fighters, he's Hypnotizing calls it mental coaching, but he will in, and I was like to know what you're doing like he's been on my podcast, for my do it me me see: what's up, it was very weird, very fine. It beneficial, I think I did mean we did at once, but
I was. I was kind of stunned by, unlike others, all a weird state where your kind of their, but not their like it's not like you do No, what's going on, you do know, what's going on, but you're in this weird sort of clause. I relax sleepy thing. It's a very unusual stay down this match of high focus. Deep relaxation is not a brain state that weaken access very easily without a hypnotist mean there are other ways to do it, but that state would be super beneficial for free for people wanting to learn something because it would relax them much more deeply than it would just
or ordinary everyday life, while you're conscious, that's right, it's it's taking the two pieces of the plasticity puzzle and putting them in the same event, so I dont think it should be the only way to learn new things, because there are there things you can't do in hypnosis like him like rolled you did too. I mean raw, for instance, but as a tool for accessing faster learning, it's quite powerful. Just like sleep I mean, I think, the work about Walker and bill demand at Stanford and others had shone like if you want to pull some one apart, you wanna just make them insane and are unable to do these duration path outcome. When you know mental operations, you sleep, the problem, you there's a thing, people do this sort of reductionist dismissive way. Viewing meditation and viewing its of mine that really weird to make a smart people. Do it occasionally, and others gather things very smart and he was talking about it on Twitter, like marking meditation well- and I was like me:
this is a guy's problem really mounted. Meditation has grown up in northern cal morning in mindfulness thing, thus problem so it's the same. Charlatan gets the stuff around raft and you know it I think this is why, like its exciting that respiration slash breath, work is now making a you know. Big showing in the world, as I think it has tremendous value. I think that is the stuff around at the causes, problems and can get it pushed into. Like The naming I mean, like I mean I've Nothing can tioga me there's a lot of powerful tools in yoga, but it's the shoulders and the non all the stuff around. It makes it sound alone, like religion and a lot of people in medical communities and other religious coming back off from that, while their surprise problem with yoga that I actually had a conversation with my yoga instructor about, because I do be chrome class and they say things
class. Like your massaging, your descending calling, you might know, you're, not a definite, not doing exposed up saying that rise does not really possible right, not massaging you're, fuckin colon. Why stretching right? That's that's nonsense. Are you? Are you increasing flexibility? Yes, are you strengthening Europe, Europe, your balance in your stability, a hundred percent, but there's much nonsense. That goes with it that they, you know, if you talk to a doktor, they like right- and I do not. I because I have talked to doctors and ok before Besides this is it even possible This is going on right in the medical media can be a little bit too one sided as well. You know, I think, Staffordshire very progressive placed the fact that speak on. I have this study looking at respiration and its impact, I think, is a sign. The times are changing we're not doing this in any kind of mystic away. The fact that people in Milton
Shhh operations, athletics are starting to think about the mind and the tools to access the mind is a sign that there has been a tide change. I had James now term, Consequently, and we talked about his new book breath and just the the ability to control various aspects of your nervous system and even your immune system through breath. Work is very confusing because everybody breeds. So where are we our boat breathing right now, we're not doing breathing exercise but we're breathing. So what is it about? Breathing exercises that accentuate these, these aspects of our economic system and sympathetic systemic? What what's going on for so I think John this book is great devising you know it sounds like I'm just shamelessly plugging Stamford constantly, but like most of the studies use referring to were done by my colleagues appall Alexander Con stuff in my lab mark Cross. No, these These are people who are serious scientists and serious. Was it and who are saying, look respirator.
She has an important role in balancing oxygen and carbon dioxide in the body and in the brain, and that has an important impact on states of mind and body. I think that's, just no medical professionals presuming there. Any good could argue that so I take. For instance, more Cosmo's lab in a neighbouring lab at Stanford discovered that animals and people periodically throughout been throughout the day, will do what's called a physiological sigh. These have been known about since the thirties, but turns There's a set of neurons in your brain stem in my brain stem. Every once in a while on the level of carbon dioxide in your bloodstream gets too high. You do a double inhale and an extended exhale, so it's like two inhales through the nose extended exhale your dog. Does this right before goes down from YAP to offload carbon dioxide that double inhale? I think talk about this if he did for giving the double inhale. Maximally inflates does
or saxon the lungs of your leave lungs and that pools carbon dioxide, the bloodstream at a higher level so that you offload it more in the exhale now the physiological size or the fastest way that I'm aware of from work in our lab and was Spiegel to take the that ceased from two to high level of stress, Toolbar Connor Dublin who accepts this, isn't breastwork this is a set of neurons, that every kid in every adult has they use periodically, but we can also consciously control through the diaphragm. So that's one way to bring things more com. I think your James talked about in his book, but those breath work of the sort where you know China to mow type, breathing of doing three inhales and really offloading Lara carbon dioxide that causes the release of nor Adrenaline Europe, an effort. And nor adrenaline, nor up enough for an hour
mother natures, way of buffering us against infection and disease, everyone thinks stress, kills your immune system, the opposite stress, activates Europe, system economic sense of if we suddenly had to forge or go out and water. We need two or three days and we do know what you can't afford to get sick. This is why you work work, work, work, and then you finally rest your more likely to get sick you, go into that more parasympathetic relax. Take your immune system also get shot tsar. Why people in prison are getting caught, of nineteen and not really getting sick this summer, given that our asymptomatic could be added, as the recent matic or, if you're very stress, for a very long time. Eventually, the immune system can't deploy these killer cells that it needs to do so. There is a certain amount of stressed its actually beneficial to you and your immune system right, but I get hurry up are doing I roles and I go oh frustrate. When people like adrenal burn out look you're adrenal were designed to take you through two lifetimes. If you need to,
the idea that your dreams are just gonna shrivel up into you know. Somebody told me that the their doktor told them that coffees, given the material burn out is a nonsense. I want to see a match. Each no anatomy show me adrenal burn out, show me in a drain on that won't secrete adrenaline anymore. So what why they sang like where that come for us good sounds about what our sympathetic, simpler, yeah yeah. This doctors told my friend that drinking coffee is burning out as adrenal. I mean in maybe putting them into a state of heightened activation, and they can't take it down a notch in the evening. They don't know how to relax. They don't know how to turn on the person pathetic nervous system without doing things like eating or something which is one we to do it, but- and I think, as a society we are struggling to manage this seesaw I mean we know that it being a chronic state of stress is bad physically. You dont want do that, but you also don't want to do it your mind. I mean any time your stress. You are also able to be recruited better by other people stress. We know that recruited by other people's trust. You
So my love is also looked like how stress spreads between people, how the autonomic nervous systems communicate, and we know that the best way to get what called emotional contagion is to get people into heightened state of alertness, I'm guessing and I have no knowledge of comedy whatsoever, but I'm guessing that the comedian, that's less money that comes out before the main person, I'm guessing they're, trying to get them like wrapped up. You can create a more emotional contagion. You have to take them from the floor. All the way up to the ceiling, gonna get them upper levels that right or my way off well it's interesting. They put it that way. It's actually a problem, comedians that have sensitive egos will bring less funny comedians with them on the road. They look better and it's like amongst Lee comics- it's actually very frowned upon, because it's yours yourself up till a hero, your rescue, the audience from some terrible meaning that you had open for you. If you, if you can judge the
ego or the health of the ego of the headliner by what kind of comedian, they consistently take with them. On the road mean, you know, everybody has bad sets occasionally, but A lot of times is weak minded. Guys will bring these terrible comedians in the road with them interesting nets. But it's the he's in Essex didn't want to be out shined, that's what it is makes sense will that's gum. Anchored in neurobiological phenomenon. Forgive me this is all I think about humbly called Dopamine reward prediction error. So It's very simple, really basely says that the the degree to which something feels really good. Were you experience? It is good, could be great meal or comedy set from the perspective of the audience. Of course, is going to depend on how much it open mean you got before so, I tell you we're gonna go to a restaurant. China's amazingly, I amazing stakes, amazing stakes and we get there. There's a higher probability. Thus take isn't gonna. Take great too. You really absolutely reward prediction. Error means
it's really great. It has to exceed the dopamine that you had an recant bullshit people, that's Risa, you may well there's something that does happen. There's a contagion. The does happen when people are funny where its contagious and everyone around, you starts laughing more because there's more people around you laughing like. If I in a room and is a funny comedian, onstage and there's a bunch of people to my left and right that our law- having really hard, are more likely to laughed right. There's something weird that goes on in one of the things that I've always said about stand up. Is I think, it's kind of a mass noses? It's not just funny! You know, because if it, funny. Theirs is comics that are doing these zoom combination.
As an aside, I encourage them to all stop doing it immediately. Goods fuckin, terrible, it's even great comics, look fuckin, terrible because your lacking that critical element of an audience Stanhope COM is one of the rare art forms. You really can't do on your own. You have to do it in front of people and I think, what's happening, is when it's not just when a person's on stages really good. It's not just that their funny dodges their timing, The excellent is not just they have these, really really in sight for ways of looking at things and make you laugh it's all so that your ran a bunch of other people that are experiencing it together and when that person's good, you are allowing them to think for you there's some weird like if I'm watching a guy on Ganz, daisies, really good or girl insects. Really good when someone's killing I'm allowing their personal. Think for me, I'm like sitting there, just like God, take weaver I'd, let's go, and and then there making you laugh, but it's yours
so where the or in it with these other peoples, you have this enhanced state because others The people around you and you experiencing it together. This is idle, How much about comedy at all! So forgive me but comedy to me, is very interesting because its aim- and I dont know how the comedy scripts are written, but I find them incredibly fascinating because it seems, like almost all jokes- are a break from the space time rule that the brain expects close contact card magicians. Do this very well too? It's like you're expecting something to happen and I think he's going there. So it's sort of duration pop out come with a secret and then all the sudden you get with something that surprising? Yes, this is probably not funny. Maybe it, to not, but there's a Steve Morton thing from way back when, where he? U business comedy for dogs or something our dogs and it and it's a perfect example of this Breaking all the rules. The dogs are telling him what to do and at first it's not funny, and then he keeps going
with it, and what you realize is he's on when you use the word hypnotize incorrectly here, but bringing you into reality where the dogs are setting. The and it's hilarious, because the brain when it sees surprise it could be a card that you know, you pack and then I tear it up, and then you ve suddenly produce it from my shoe or something the gum. Extreme magician type step were really funny Joe. It's like the brain, wants to go one place and when something unexpected happens, dopamine is released. We this? It's like surge of doping and all of a sudden, it's like I'm in a state where, then you can take me further up the staircase one thing we know about, dopamine was white, so powerful is not just that it can buffer these feelings of effort, but that It can take you into new ways of thinking about a problem I mean this is why a lot of this isn't working involved, and that is why a lot of the excitement about the therapeutic use of em dna and things that increase Dopamine or windows into modes of profit.
Information that are very different now on the dark side of that, if you think about cocaine or methods, I mean you got dopamine coming in artificially and intends to create a problem of tend to make people super focus. On everything outside them and in pursuit of more stuff happens with really high dopamine, but dopamine appropriately. Dosed allows us to explore new realities of how you know what led to that joking you variation anyway, I'm sort of like parsing comedy. I don't do anything about it, but when I watch comedy, I'm always looking for that element of surprise, and sometimes I think, you're laying out crumbs for me and then your hit me with something I no idea and that twice as familiar that pop. That's that's doping. When, when someone does cocaine do they wear out their dopamine receptors? So, in a short short. Yes, that the dopamine receptors are very prone to saturation. Remember the the there like parking spot and you can fill those up very quick
and there is actually changes that happened at the genetic level and cells when there's too much dopamine in the system for too long like with dopamine addiction or crack cocaine addiction. The cells actually start modifying the way they work so that they be I'm better and better at gobbling up dopamine the host. System, becomes a dopamine pursuit system and in thinking about the brain, for these kind of you're very top. Contour conceptual levels we can think of addiction is just a narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure, and so what you will What is too, obviously not use cocaine what you what is to access the nope system, through whatever process appeals to you, provided that it doesn't deplete that dopamine system, like you can You can't maximizes to the point where things don't work any more and there is a kind of a little weird techie called thing happening. The bear the called dopamine fasting, which has no basis in physiology where the
kids are like literally they're, not looking at each other. In the eye cuz like I was too much dopamine and then yeah. I swear it's a real thing. I get asked about this a lot and it is anything it would have the opposite effect that they're seeking when the weather's bombs just sitting in the street up their everyone's listener mine? I have to be a little defensive. Northern California. It has a lot of problems, but when I go down events which I love and loves allay, also not one of these southern California hating Northern conference, there's precepts homeless, prone bower to its gravity, but San Francisco homelessness. Is it it's on another level I mean I don't go to the city and near the king. I don't get it we either as the kings are homeless people not not a title. We gave a new some, you did it you ve mother, fucker. You start that its I live in these space out on the open time, we have that problem there, but Oakland's always are alarming
Well, it's one of the side effects of a really tolerant, progressive community, for whatever reason, you're, tolerant to drug addicts making tent compounds. You know- and it's very unfortunate because it ruins everything else and I get the idea behind it. I get it, but in practice it just is not effective. It's not good for them. It's not good! For you. Certainly not good for property values is not good for safety. It's just not it's not good for sanity Zaga for sanitation, so that good for anything I mean fuckin downtown, allay their funded typhoid, dig. There were bringing back middle aged era of media. What is it not middle aged was with toward him. For I do this middle ages medieval. I was made even up. I fucked up yap mediaeval medieval diseases, to bring our diseases that have been around for fucking thousands of years. We were all I don't No, why that can't be solved. I just don't understand that problem.
Homeless problem to me. So it's so odd that they just let them camp out, like I went to Venezuela Day for dinner and we're drive by this house and there's a beautiful house to my left, its polwarth, like five million dollars and in front of it there's thirteen tents like this is crazy. The less blasphemers down here was in March were before covert hit and around the time who knows when it hit, but there's a block on Venice Boulevard. Leaned down to that air one market. That was made one block and I drove in the other nine in it extends you no seven blocks and then I'll do shit about it, and I don't know what you're gonna do. Return? You go into an underpass you're entering the homeless encampment. Now they have even though over here and one that can they put a porter. Body there and a handwashing station like we give up here shit in this bucket, crazy like y. All this is it's just I mean I don't know. Maybe there's bigger fish to fry, maybe more important things right now with Cold
I can't think of anything more important than making sure that citizens have healthcare and shelter and the route to do. That is not my expertise. I don't have any great ideas about but I just the homeless prompt me as very bothersome when our neighbour Hudson in Berkeley you go down towards the fourth street fishery is to be a kind of an artist district. Get down here, they're skateboard park they caught the urn Brok of each part has had always likes sewage and toxic waste seeping up and kids were getten infections and stuff so down near there. Now I really want to go there right, but boss after boss, after ten after ten, it's an entire city, now most people living in the avenues back there and you gonna do about it and that doesn't seem to be any solution that does nothing on the table. No one's doing it is letting a grow it. So,
weird it's so we I mean I don't want to be the person engineers, the solution and I've got shit to do on. Aren't you fuckers their mayors and congressmen? That's your district dogs. Do somethin yeah, I mean I'm, I'm not a very political person, but I am very disappointed Well a lot of things, but I see a lot of great things happening in the world, but I all oh see, but almost total failure, even in this on the part of scientific community to communicate accurately. What's going on right now, there's so much confusion and in I want to get into the covert thing, because it's not my expertise but back to the matter. Is that science Also, you know there's a lot of you don't believe in science but science has also failed at some level to get out there and explain to people what they need to know. Who are the people that don't believe in science? Well, there are the anti vaxxer flat earth people
skin relics and that's the most part, and I think the ease with which you know a celebrity can just decide that vaccinations, work or somewhere don't work as her way and it spreads yet so quickly and people love that idea that you know I try and look at it through the lens of neuroscience, say what is it about the mind where people can't seem to connect to logical ideas when its inconvenient for them, but they can strings whether all these random dots into a theory that this was all caused by you, no five, here are some them no sense at all. So it tells me that yes, people are challenged, but in addition to that, I do think that the scientific committee has a responsibility. You know with less not go after foul. She specifically, but why isn't there? A team of scientists out there saying a team. We figured out this that in the other thing there, It was just bringing this up earlier before the shell that someone was being criticized because they said we should have more experts to draw upon other than food,
gee. This person who was interviewed unexplained would there's an unseen and this morning, as they were just kept, asking what your problem found. She knew so well, there's other want to talk to somebody. I stand for. He named some one specific that members, the name but just talked other people and she's like we have other epidemiologist coming on the programme or whatever reasons there. Why not try this person this person, this person she kept grilling a month she. Why? Why do you keep asking about fatuous province? Algae very strange wrote. That is not what the issue is that the issue is divergent. Opinions are important, particularly when it to medicine and science like there's different perspectives and also equally educated experts who very on what they think the approach should be, and I think regarding the this thing- This is the covert things about the unique right because it is a novel corona virus. So we really dont know we don't know and you go
back and listen to what the World Health Organization was saying in January versus what for she was saying in March the verses. What there, today, in July it's very different. So clearly, there is no, One expert has a fuckin finger right on the pulse and, like I got this, this is what we do listen to Fouch, you listen them Joan over their whoever the fuck. It is that's not the case We need a panel of again, we do in the space shuttle exploded. We had a panel of experts. Now Richard Feynman was the one who was kind of front runner and he's the most eloquent and he knew how to speak to the general public, and so he was the one they got. All the attention for figuring out it was a you know: washer ring much heated up or got cold. I forget what it was figured out, fine figure that, in addition to doing so, many other amazing chastened checks plan the bond What he did then would have gotten and fired today very quickly chip which ass. I want my daddy this, according to my dad it was, it was bongo drumming naked on the roof of Caltech yeah. So he took it.
Homer? There was also a guy who is worrying to float tax, Frahm. He really was into the floating thing biting Anybody tries M, gets a norm, I've never try. Now we need to get in what, but my prediction I policies that its dramatically change that sensation piece of the equation, so that your per cent we can now move in kind of float. No pun intended that you're it makes hard to do this duration path outcome can a rigid thinking in their because you, my understanding is that the the salinity, the water in the temperature, the water, makes it so that you kind of don't notice the boundary be sued between yourself. One comes one environment, ass, so fine and actually talked about this as a way to access space time, relationships of the mind that he anchored to physics, principles, So he was a big proponents of the float tank. I think I'll because he was a little afraid does try psychedelic. I wanna talk to you about the full time, but I dont want to steer wave right away
from science should be the responsibility of science, because I don't think that responsibility is in science. I think the problem is and this is a new problem. The new found ability to communicate on line and reach massive amounts of people without any expertise whatsoever. That's what this podcast is mean said, a bunch of stupid shit on here, that's not accurate and you can get away with it, but least I'm ethical in it that if I do make mistakes I welcome Them now try to be as honest as I can about what I know or what I don't know, but when someone's slightly schizophrenia, or delusional, and there are more prone to believing in conspiracies because conspiracies they act made some weird spot, your brain, and maybe we could talk about that? I don't know what that spot is, but there's there's some weird reward mechanism that come from discovering things that are hidden that people don't Want you to find out that everybody else doesn't know about. You could be the fuckin Paul Revere of five g and you can.
The guy running around five g is coming. Five g is coming there, there's something bout that that really dumb people really gravitate towards and some really smart people with some mental takes some things that are off and it's it's a real problem, because it's a giant distraction. I dont think that responsibility was in science, because science is supposed to be about data and lies these things coming up with cold hard facts that you could that approvable right things you could show. This is repeatable this This is what the situation is, and this is how we know spokesperson, science- will be wonderful, but there are people like that. There's no digress. Thyssen does a fantastic job about the cosmos and then I love his work. But you know there's this: there was a culture in the eightys and Ninetys around the corner. Rob sort of in this cause my dazzling visits. Physique, we spend some time A lot of emphasis, the cosmos and astrology that gained immense popular yeah. It's very exciting and very interesting.
And mostly irrelevant to what we're dealing with right? Now in twenty twenty right now it's about biology, virology, epidemiology and there has not been a voice for that. Besides vouchers and I think he's doing the best he can with what he's got I do. I have to believe that, but I think a panel of experts who could appeal to different types of people through different types of mediums would assist in at least letting people know what the process is. No resource said there are people out there who don't think code. Exists? You got people that are just waiting for a vaccine, arrogantly their house until there's a vaccine up, you they're afraid of vaccine there. Is to be some structure of communication about what scientists are doing, because there's incredible work happening in laboratories. Answering all over the world, trying to figure out the solution to this problem and at the same, time. People are very stressed, you know for the send. It doesn't have a w two or regular ten. Ninety nine income, this period of time mentally stressful and the morning
for something more stress The human or any animal gets the easier it is to recruit them into some sort of delusional thinking. Yes, you know it's, you know psychosis is defined as a, riding meaning to something for which there is none unified we tell you that the brick in that corner is sending me messages about what I should say. Next, that's breaking with our space time understanding what what's allowed here, people are due. That in subtle kind of incremental as some of them might be diabolical and evil. But what we know is that the more stressed people are, the better people are able to recruit them into ideas where they can connect dot that otherwise might not be connected. Has everything to do with the way that the brain cop, but you don't computes information so letting a panel? Experts would necessarily buffer us or inoculate us against those kind of forces, but I do think that there was a time in this country, at least when I was growing on forty four years old, where
At least there were some faith that the figures that you saw on a screen or that we're talkin to you were putting in a best faith. Effort I mean it might have been a lot of shady stuff going on behind the scenes, but I think that is completely fallen away so now it's all, as you said very aptly, it's all about falling individuals who can be most convincing in the moment. It's about capturing people in these highly dopamine ergic. Anxious states where you can start leading them down a flight path, and pretty soon there's no notion of sign procedure about flatter earth. You and it's it's scary- the other countries are doing this. China is not doing this in China there they are worth chipping away in Europe there working in chipping away in a way that is in keeping with the reality that is been broadly presented them here. Reality is getting very distorted, there's also a problem with in and it's not because of FAO Chee but found she
represents to a lot of people, a point of ideological loyalty right. You believe, voucher because you think trumps moron. You know or I believe project has, I think, he's a scientist has got the best at a tool to look at the problem by, but you know I'm saying so anything that opposes his perspective gets diminished, even if so the legitimate scientist that has an altered perspective. You know it or some one who instead wishes that we focus the public on how to strengthen the immune system and the techniques for strengthening the means in which we are aware of. These are real things and you don't hear a peep out of this, which is to me very frustrating to its I'm disappointed. I guess that's what I was saying poorly before and you said much more clearly now which, as you know, I am disappointed that he's
the only person out there and the only voice, not because I dont believe what he sang is valid, but because I think there are other things that are important. First of all, the stress problem has not been addressed. Yeah. I work in my laboratory, but when the reasons I'm getting out there in trying to talk to people about stress in these systems, internal provide tools is because people are stressed, and for that person, whether another wearing a mask washing their hands. Twenty five times a day and staying at home are going out stress. There are tools for that and we have an obligation to teach people those things and I we have their tools for enhancing immune system and we need to teach people those things yeah. I wished that was a big part of the the government, whether local government or national government, the folk
of not just telling people to stay inside and be scared, wash your hands and where a mask do all those things but also exercise drink, more water. Take vitamins enough teach people of meditation techniques, let the give people some tools that can help them get the proper sleep. They need think these are all immense factors. I agree I mean the foundation of our well being. Is the very basic can't can almost boring. Scuff hydrate sleep gratitude social connection, nutrition, exercise, yea start here about this thing you can do well. It's exciting. It's not the magic pill, but I think of the all about us. Turn of the tide that comes in that's required to bring the boat out to see. If you know what I think people think about the thing that's going to trampoline them up to the highest position. You know that's going to suddenly turn them into a high performer. You know, and I have been doing
work with a former teen guy whose names Pat dos it and Blake my Caskey, who started Tom Shoes, so just vote, closure, because I have a position on their company bored. I wanna do full disclosures, not work in my lab and they ve got this. The US company this programme, that's really about building foundational tools for people like for the every person that it's great and I also feel like our government should be sending these messages out there, because we really lacking that. I think the instability of the situation that we He today has a lot the psychological response at all. This has a lot to do with the fact that we didn't hit covert, prepared, we didn't hit, This situation prepared, the world was young, that the United States is badly obese. The real serious medical problem, Raymond touching the psychology just medical problem, badly obese and stressed almost sundew, almost on those two generously to put the supplements crank as Bridget furnaces,
minister dance, fuckin, appropriate and hilarious, and it's about what we're going to right now in terms of obesity and stress, and all these poor people who also gimme a certain element of fine it caught Damagon alot of text messages. Oh, I can only imagine oh, I can't even imagine like what the fuck is, this sort more certain cod dm. I have a hundred and fifty new text messages here since two right now, Jim. The debtor here. Kids, Jamie Bam Bell. Why will say my physician friends tell me that one of the major threats to you know, one of the major risk factors is obesity yeah. This is,
they. Would you work in a lady that weighs about four hundred pounds in a scooter yelling at a fit woman, put a mask on you're, putting my health at risk and she's gotTa Mcdonald's bag? and that's a lot of. What's going on. I will I was hoping that what this was gonna do was, it was, can be a work, wake up call for people where I was gonna, see obese people really take them. I'll seriously NGO. Well, while I'm alive like what are the primary factors that led to really bad results with Cove it well, to the doctors, are treated patients in Manhattan. The number one factor was obesity, those number one- and so there's older people that you know did way better than young people that were obese. So it's not just an age related thing. It's an obesity, related thing button. You people, as long as they're. Ok, they naked stay inside and where a mask their Fuckin healthy, though just eat, ice cream and Watch tv,
in and hope someone comes up with a solution that the daddy government comes along and fixes the problem, but it should be a wake up call should you. Health related wake up, call for people it should. I mean I think that. We saw in the Eightys and Ninetys fast food and cheap calories became so prominent and we see the effects of that now. That's that's that's here now the promise. Now I think, the other problem. That's happened over the last ten years and restoring does see this urge in much the same way that we see in obesity emerge is the phone and I loved, phone M born reason. Silicon Valley, I use the phone, I love the phone, but it is a complicated device because we are bringing a ton of our attention to it. Social media is very complicated as well full aspects, but there are ways in which its converting in engaging neural plasticity in the young brain the way it's you know indeed, drawing our attention thing about how much attention people will place on that will phone, but they carried two pages of walk right. That worries me because I'm you know u, verse
professor and I need everybody in doing equations or learning about neuroscience. Not at all. I just worry about the neural, the city of learning to be de focused and Scatterbrain there is time to put the brain in two states of space. I'm fluidity to come up with New Kommeni routines or scientific ideas. You know you could take a walk. You can run. You can put the float tax them once you do for ways to do this, but The phone is starting to gobble up all that dopamine and all that this time, duration path, outcome stuff and we are wasting our cognition and we're wasting the most precious gift we were given by mother nature. Evolution is a brain that can teach itself things and that can predict things
and that can look at the past can learn from elders and gain wisdom. I mean all that stuff is what we were put here to do and my dad said you know he thinks I asked him if he thinks there are other galaxies him cuz he's more versed in the in physics in the as was than I am, and he said I don't know, but if there was the they probably extinguish themselves with social media, because it's like mental chewing gum people just kind of throwing away their cognition and the dopamine thing. It's that they're getting so much dopamine from using the phone doesn't feel like a big win, etc. Spending it out like spending. You know five dollar bills all day, long pretty soon you're broke and yes Austin. And so I worry about our use of these devices and where its doing our neurology, but I also know their extremely important island Berlin live innovates who is on the pact, has recently wrote a book called the natural and it's one of the things said he. He talked
bout in the book? Was that what we're doing is essentially the verb? It's weird. Indeed, he talked about on Twitter and its heart. I engage with them. We are We're taking most of our information and we're making it processed information by getting things off of twitter by getting things off of social media you're. Getting re way. Weird interaction with people is boiled down to this very strange, two hundred eighty character version: that's not equivalent to an actual conversation with a human being or reading a book or watching a document or any those things. As this weird thing that's most of the information they are receiving, and if you look at human beings that are processed food diets, he see the body behaves very poorly in it. It just react very poorly and it's it's terrible she's, not good for it's unhealthy. Equally unhealthy is processed in
Nation, and that those this is his argument and is a great argument. It's a great argue. Its I think we are in an adolescent stage of this technological intervention and this this will lead to whatever neural link is going to be and whatever the CIS six Sir, to Neuro Link is gonna, be I think things are gonna get way weirder. I think, but there is potential for a beneficial aspect to it, and I think one of the potentially beneficial aspects are that it seems like all of technology is moving us through at least in it. Virtual sense of using phones and computers, work good. The bout, the boundaries between people and information are becoming smaller and smaller. The problem is the boundaries between
Physical people are becoming greater there's more separation, particular with covert right is more physical separation between people, but the boundaries between being able to access the thoughts of people is smaller. So it's your ear. The beneficial aspects of like what we talked about, what with your me even european system in your your health and just Rob mental well being community love, friendship, all those things you need to be right there, I'll, be right there with a any hug each other stuff. Does this its crucial? That's really and hard wired and ass with Cove id, that's first of all, everyone scary, because everyone could give you the buggy to tell you or kill your grandma and then, on top of that, you're engaging in this processed form of communication all day long and most of it is toxic mean if you're in gauging with people on social media. Then I mean I've talked about this multiple times in the show this people
follow they don't even know following him. Cuz haven't bookmark has just so toxic. I go and just I want to know what they're doing I'll just go to MIKE look at his mother. Fucker he's on Twitter twelve hours a day is yelling at people arguing constantly, and I just match and that their mind is of stock in chaos just enough of a rack just hot holes and burning buildings, their head just fill with shit, but its effective. You know in the terrible way, its amended its liking. The engineers, you know talk about signal versus noise and the brain is essentially an engineered machine. It looks for where signal is high and above the noise and soda there really is a pay off nowadays, a short term deleterious pay off, but pay off. Nonetheless, for being able to recruit peoples, attention of recruit their autonomic nervous system, get those into them into those modes of having to click and follow and scroll night.
I agree that I think social media like, for instance, I t some signs on social media I've mesh of great make great connections through social media, but we have to be very judicious and use of it and that's hard for most people and what I think is going to happen. We're gonna, stop Toby Signal noise, I think. What's gonna happen is we're gonna start selecting for people that are Very good at controlling their attention are very good at separating themselves from technology as well as using technology, and so people there just rapidly consuming technology and information and thinking? This is the way to live a good life or to get ahead there actually just falling into the noise, and then people better. I think it's one of the reasons why a select set of individuals have been so effective controlling the landscape, the political landscape, the lots of landscapes- let's just say that, and I think that we to think about whether not were in the noise or whether or not where you know Penitentially these big peaks of signalling. What that we're getting recruited, we're getting in oak a groomed by these things in it scary and
the same time. I agree. I think that eventually we will break through this. I do because that's what the human animals really good at, I think we're in a technological dark ages, and so I think we ve they weren't us some weird thing where there's a lot of people This is not good. Kids does not good, but most people like fat cats and just in just waiting into the fray, because it feels kind of good. Both especially when you don't have real, meaning or purpose in your life goes right, Imploid and you're stuck at home, because a covert and you're scared of, that's a way that people occupy they're mine and engage in you. You see a big optic, big uptake and where we saw the people that I'm paying attention to the toxicity of their inner, their exchange will. This is kind of scary, and I I I saw hesitant to just flip to another research stay. But there was the sky in the sixties, this guy Robert Heath, who didn't need patients who had epilepsy. He just got permission to record from the human brain. And so we put electrodes into their brains and he let them see
merely any area, the brain that they wanted. This was like this. He just did it and They'd stimulate one area and they feel count drunk similarly another error, they feel sexual arousal, these two million other they start laughing the number one area that people like to stimulate created a sense of mild frustration and anger, which is totally perplexing on the face of it. You say like: why would people like that more than sexual arousal or feeling drunk or happy or get or whatever it turns out that this doubling system where time our earlier is tethered to that- and it very likely explains not just the human animal, but all animals ability to lean into challenge in order to acquire more resources to fight and overcome the view. A bunch of whole species. Refugees backed away from any frustration and challenge, now be very problematic. And so right now, I see us in the state of extreme anger and frustration or mild anger and frustration, and some people are gonna drill through this
they're gonna make things work. You know they're gonna goggins it to make it the verb. You know, but in a lot of people are just gonna feed that frustration, anger, but in a loop, just a closed loop, where they're just clicking and growing and clicking and strong scrolling. And they're not building anything out of that. So this It is really important. It's actually part the circuit that underlies the state that we would call courage in my lab work on it in this relates to some of the stuff done with military groups, but it don't stay of courage were designed to accomplish specific goals, the fine fine, maids and then in the world of military. You know conquer this or learn that, and you know, learn a new skill right now. The phone in many ways is hijacking some of that circuitry at a low level and its it's. Never the subtle stuff is the stuff that scares me, it's obviously I'm very disturbed when I see riding and looting, but when I see a technology that is kind gnawing away at our neurology little by little We can go home again as we can cope with life and what's being thrown at us. I think that's when
we really need to look at what the that neural circuitry was built for and start building new technologies to take us out of this mess, yeah, that's what I'm hoping the future. These, whether its neural link or some other sort of immersive technology that allows people to communicate in a very differ, way, when you wanna saying you can be able to talk without using words, what I'm a cent What I'm really hoping The sounds really crazy, but I think what could help is if we could read thoughts and clear, tensions, re really understand intentions, verses, interpretation of intentions, like someone can say something sarcastically and you can read it the wrong way and in get upset at them. They read it intact. It's even more easy to misinterpret with someone saying or to purposely deceptively frame what they're trying
say that if you can just read someone's mind, we're gonna we're gonna have a much better understanding of each other and the rewards verses. That, though, the positive versus negatives, of holding onto these really toxic patterns, people are swimming in right now with social media. I agree, and I do think that Europe city, in addition to brain machine interface, you know, so it probably will involve machines that we put on her. Faces or whatever but neural plasticity. Is the way out of this right. That's what the brain can do. It can learn new contingencies, new ways of relating that's why I'm so adamant about understanding this process and really feeling so much importance on, especially with kids, because it also passive or your brains are just passively shaped by experience, so that could be a little scary people, it's also beautiful, because it means that you set one proper, intention or one rule that they should learn and adopt and that can have a long, lasting effect the ability.
Distress themselves self sue the ability to your work through a hard tangle of a problem interpersonal or academically. Whatever problem that can be done is just that. We I do think, especially in this country, we ve learned to back away from that internal sense of agitation, and you can when that, over time on earlier that agitation is the first requirement for getting plastic there's no way around that- and we have this an obsession with flow states, which I think her great and on all this stuff, and we think it that's the portal to it. But I think there are certain actually that it's not Portal, the poor old to changing the brain. Is these hired and high attention states followed by rest and just keep going, toddling back and forth can force. That is what's really important right there you you could. Not strive for a life of total relaxation cause you're, not gonna. Get shit done. There's nothing there! It's not the act. State of the human mind it doesn't. It doesn't thrive under those conditions.
But we are also concerned about stress and we're so concerned about the pressures of weather, no you're in some sort of a competitive environment or you a job that you're in involved in that requires an immense amount of your focus in your attention. We are all striving for that state, You're, like a monk in a lotus. Fishing not doing anything that seems terrible to me because its divorced from everything we know about competition winning in the brain that there's a cool set of experiments. That I think you might especially appreciate. Given your background, martial arts, which is called the tube test, where they take to rats or to mice. They put him in a tube tablets, male mice, but also female mice, and they start fighting for position in that to one mouse pushes the other Moussa or rap. Inevitably that one is the winner, the winning a push out the loser. We know that, statistically, if you put those mice back into another tube task, even with another mouse, the winner
the higher probability of winning and the loser has a higher probability of losing. Even if you push the winner from me, and so you take a loser and used up to push it from behind with a stick and it wins. Even doesn't win on its own effort. It becomes a winner. This is totally weird and for about two decades, this really perplexed neuroscientist, and this was taught in psychology classes, but not neuroscience clauses so ass five years neuroscientist come in. We have allowed a new tools now that let us monitor the brain and look at the brain in real time. I'm as road answer. People are doing these kinds of things, and so they figured out that there's a specific area, the frontal cortex becomes more active in the winter and less active in the loser. So so that, if you shut down that brain area, the winner suddenly becomes a loser, you increase active. In the loser: it becomes the winter, so you have so. What in the world is this brain activity or brain area doing it turns out its taking the feeling,
of stress and arousal, which both of them are experiencing it's a battle, and it can Is it to more steps forward movement per unit time? It's just forward movement, and so one animal was feeling stressed and his pausing more or is backing up. The other end was feeling the same level stress and is moving forward just physically and its wild. You can even taken arena, make it really cold, which mice don't like put a warm heat lamp in the corner and the animal that one at the tube test gets the sweets every single time, and so what this says is that you now, though, am. I swear humans. My labs been looking at this. We had a paper a few years ago, identifying the area and the brain that actually leads to forward movement and rewards it with a doping and reward is a paper. We nature the area. The brain is interesting only because it maps exactly two that brain area that Robert he found. People liked to stimuli
frustration and anger, so frustration and anger were designed to get us to move forward adaptively now I don't know this place out in the octagon, where you're seeing somebody get beat up, and you know but and then there s son there winning and switching back and forth, but you know my cream experiment will be to record for the brains of those guys, while in real time round. We don't have the Tec to do this right now, but someday. We will- and I bet you that every forward step or two percent in that you have an advantage over the other guy or gal, leads to a dopamine increase. Dear lowers that Northern Efron and allow ask them to keep moving forward. They get energy, they its unity guessing at the level of ya, can't breathe there gazing at the level of conditioning it's something happening, Nerli, so as a society right now, we're stressed- and this is not the time to back off- go into the Lotus position and people come out Sometimes I do think we need tools to buffer stress. I wanna be clear about that and I want people stress
all the time or seeking stress, but goodness we were given in. We were endowed with this amazing neurology that allows us to do this. We did it in famine. We did this with foreign invaders. We did this with animals and storms, and we did this, and here we are, we ve got severe challenges but forward movement, balance by rest is the solution that work for us for tens of thousands of years and its. What can work now and it all comes back to just a few Select brain areas consists is a primitive situation wherein it's not a sophisticated situation. Yeah. That's that's a on comfortable reality for lotta people that the struggle is good right that there's there's benefits to it, as particularly, if you're looking for growth and also, if you're looking for stimulation and a sense of meaning. I think people, for whatever reason are high
wired to try to figure things out, try to get better at things and to have a purpose and a lot of times the purpose if they feel other than family and loved ones and friends and things lungs, ons, there's a purpose of success in their chosen field. Success in whatever endeavour. Even if it's a hobby, you know like whatever the thing is that they obsess upon that's what gives people this sense of meaning of, and I think that's why there's buildings, that's weathers cities! That's why we figured out the wheel there's something about people that need a problem to solve and then once they ve solved probably need a new problem right. So the nervous system was fundamentally designed to do that and make sure our offspring make it to the next. So when you see like riots and looting, and you see people pushing against the building and let us and did you look at it from the press, active, like there's. Some sort of a bad what's going on here and there is a problem you're trying to win just
the mouse in that too, when you see those protesters and Leonard, try getting the courthouse. What are they doing? The tree Get in there because it's locked and they did they think they have this. De in their head, that that's gonna be the conquest, but you saw it with a chair as members of the zone in Seattle, Lydia was six blocks. They let him have it and then what happened they ve fucked it up that fell apart, for our part, because there is, there is no end goal then, once they have it like we're going to begin to sustain it now, people started leave and murders took place. They started beating people out there. Building things there are behaving like the police. It was crazy they put boundaries up. They essentially turned it a far worse version of the United States, but in their mind they thought, if we just take this over with this This right now is not ours, but if we take it, there's a policing, please precinct there. If we storm the precinct and occupy it,
then we're gonna win yeah wherein, but then therein now what will there's no resistance once there is no resistance, they didn't, they didn't have a fight. There was no battle. It was very primitive and actually I hadn't thought about. It is a perfect example of real life example, the two testes gas, two opposing forces pushing back and forth, and we know the more we call and on the more stress you get the more your mental and visual landscape becomes that soda straw view where all you can think about is the outer sir. Yes, you know now in a fight in octagon, her boxing ring or to do to match that's great, because that's everyone's agreed to that, but it does Not design be played out in society over these with micro wins the timing clear that their wines, because, what's really changed, I think that working through legislation working through top down legislation identifying specific things to go after I mean that was the beauty of the civil rights movement yonder. Ninety six,
brown versus the Board of Education like what it, what a beautiful thing to create openness in school. So you know where anyone could attend going out for specific legislation, that's far and away a different way of looking at a problem and solving a problem, and you know I don't have a lot to say about the the situation in terms of the protists, I saw a lot of looting where I live in Oakland on the first house in on a commercial district drove a car through the window and looted the place three times pharmacy three times and is right up next to me. So you know, I think that the matter is that seems to me to be just opportunists. Yeah, take vanity of the chaos. It was clear. It was not. The protesters has many things going on simultaneously into like to conduct. Conflate them altogether seems disenchant. What is a problem in science? We have a afraid you either a lumper or splitter, numbers like the kind of lump everything together and push hoarded a grand theory
damn using some generalizations, knowing it too far down the weeds, but I'll stand behind aiming. I said, because it has no detailed background to support it. But the split as annoying as they can be when it come to meetings no but this, but that you need a certain number of splitters? This is why I think, like a panel of people is good. You got a lump or a lumper and a splitter and then pretty soon the splitters annoying everybody cuz. You just want to go for coffee or you want to just break and the lumpers are done. But this place is no were actually not thinking about this problem in a nuanced way- and this is where I think, maybe it's not specific scientific information but a scientific tree. Inability to think about a problem and be comfortable, knowing you may not solve it today or ever, but you you're going. Leave into this thing over and over and over that's the kind of training that a scientific thinking we will give somebody you know, I want to be a scientist to do it of any one wants to be a scientist nowadays. I certainly hope so, but. We need to have more nuanced,
balance between the numbers and splinters and, as you point out before, social media is all about lumping and high motion or state, and that is the worst combination. Ya think, and that would you just said is perfect mean that that's really what we're doing with today's this inability to recognise nuance and to accept new ones and to be rigid and a committed to your position, and your position is something you David you defend because you're your position. Essentially, is you right? This is one of the problems. People have with ideas, they marry their mind to these ideas and if these ideas proved to be even if objectively, they know that this idea has holes in it, they will still defend that idea tooth and claw, because that idea represents there either represent them as it as an individual and that that's unhealthy for everybody. But it's also its power of being a human being absolutely instinct to do such a thing. Absolute there's a paper
The came out recently in the journal neuron excellent journal. There was all about the dopamine system being attached to beliefs, so beliefs and thoughts, we think this kind of these vague and unlike what our thoughts united thoughts all the time, but I can also deliberately have a thought police. Or almost like actions in the sense that they can recruit dopamine release. What this paper showed is that people, just believing thinking more and more about what they already believe leads to the dopamine increases. It literally reinforces the belief they have from the inside. That presents a certain particular type of problem for trying to convince people how to change your opinion in I have to take your mind or the person's mine into a completely different state. In order to change. It do you know, maybe it's hypnosis, maybe its proper landing of media ideas. I don't know what that form would take, but changing coal mines, provided that they are older than twenty five has to be done by the person themselves. I can't change your mind unless your child, a child, can you can impact them, but ones
an adult only you can direct your own plasticity. No one can do it so we are becoming more more polarized because of the nature of the air. I bought the drive social media, the information that we that you're getting in then I'm getting will hopefully that's more aligned than you know. Someone ideas that I'm getting and other people are getting where we fundamentally disagree, because social media and media in general is designed to bring us into these high amplitude arouse states, but we're getting different information, we're not reading the same newspaper and so on beliefs are actually diverging and being reinforced by dopamine. So we are create the bigger and bigger conceptual divide through the hijack of these neural mechanisms wonder if that's one of the really attractive things about these protests is internal recognition somewhere, even if its subconsciously that we dont connected people enough and that this there's no greater connection than a group of fifty thousand people that are supporting an endeavour.
Will cause and working towards a common. We know this. If you, you know, you really want to build team building community. Here you can have the more watch it. Answer, bring them into a peak state or you can all have them fight the same fight. I wonder if there's like, oh, oh, a yearning for that, because of the separation of mean think about the coinciding factor, right. You have social media which separates us. You have cove id which separates us, and then you have these protests which unites us, and it must be like incredibly satisfying for people that have been locked up and are constantly on social media to be in this. Mass moving you'll probably alter your own perceptions and beliefs to fit in better with this movement, so people there never be violent, may be violent people. There. Never loot might loot. People that would never use graffiti are starts
asking the windows, a Starbucks, might be so inclined because of the mob mentality to join, right on interest to be accepted and be a part of this group and just to feel something just to be excited by this. This gigantic move end when it's so undeniable that the causes worthy like the George Floyd murder, unease is that new go fuck this man. This is wrong, as is injustice, and then everybody The street nurse chanting together. You like it it's it's perfect perfect combination of thing. It is the perfect combination in and it is a combination you up until now been talking about. What's like just frustration or just winning, but you're talking about group cohesion, yeah you're, talking about fighting a fight you're talking about being locked up before so all these forces, pulling on the same Neuro Chemical forces, there are many Chemical ingredients. There a lot of ways to access the right, and I look at the happening now and I saw a go on so, unlike the inverse of burning man, I've never been to burning men on private one person a barrier
been a burning man but you're going out to the desert ever no money, everyone's gonna get along exactly can be allowed a sex and, like everyone's gonna get along and everything's create. You know no rules basic right, except behind and now we're seeing these acts in verse? Of that? and so there needs to be something that can satisfy this yearning for connection and that can make us feel like we're building, and you know Come back and last century history I mean in the building, for the war was it. You know, everyone communal The building they were blah problems with the way that was played out, of course, was not done equally among race, racial groups etc, but a common goal, a common battle, a common. It is very good at recruiting these systems in the brain, and I dont know how going to come about. I keep hoping you have as fourteen year old niece and I just keep hoping that, like her generation is looking all this and then just like we're going to work this out Why think was going to happen with places like Seattle in Portland? Unfortunately, I sense a mass exodus of Rational P but from the area. I think they're, probably going
ok people lost your marbles. We're gonna, get the fuck out here and we will take our tax dollars with us and leave you with your marxist mayor and congratulations. Fuck the whole city up and then there needs to be some sort of a recognition of the mistakes and then a correction, and that's probably what's going to happen. You're probably gonna see more and more of this more more chaos and then, like you, know, what's going on today in Portland, and now you ve got homeland security. True by which I mean I don't even know what branch of the military they are part of an idea. So we here. There are aware in camera they don't have badges on they just they just show up in many vans and poor people in the cars never is like what the fuck is this is going on here. Well, they'll, probably correction, because of that, as well as its most likely that will work. Experiencing is just a lot of chaos, and then lessons will be learned and unfortunately, for a lot of people. Victims will be made. You know they're going to make victims out of a lot of people and
people, want to lose their businesses in their livelihoods and even their lives along the way, when we saw this in the sixties. You know the civil rights movement was incredible movement, but we also had liked or hippy movement who was like a lot of in parallel were happening in the last twenty years. I was watching this year because I grew up in the Bay area tabling a cell come is like the very conservative, but I remembered growing up LISA. My house, you know like that. The way that my dad hardware hippies was like every doesn't lead anywhere. It's bad for everything. You know the counterculture movement from almost. So I think neither was correct, but you know they had crazy stuff going on like this. There was this guy Geller. That was, you know. He thought he could be and spoons with his mind. Your spoon. Better, though, is the joke miles. Don't be a spoon vendor. He like whatever you do, don't be. A spoon met her cause. It's like stage attached a fax and things that are designed to move human progress forward. That's really important! At the same time you had whole counterculture thing going crazy and I feel like in the last twenty years we ve seen some spoon benders We ve seen the eye the explore
version of access to all things. You know in and people being so hungry to have everything that everyone else has an there's been a gradual decline, at least in some sectors, for lino an appreciation for hard work ethic. That's winding David you have a deep appreciation for the work with young people military, but people who did that hope american thing that I grew up with of you get up. You pick a vocation you grind away at it, whether nodded seo garbage per garbage man or scientists doesn't matter you're just building Europe. Circuits are underlying all that and I think right now, people are feeling like they don't know, which way ways forward Why did I wish moving forward and pushing at stream? But I think a lot of you just don't know which way forward so whatever thrown in their face. They go that direction nibble. They think they have a sense of
what's forward and they're moving in that direction, and a lot of them are very young to and so they're their version of the world is not again to use the word, not particularly nuanced, which is you know, they're they're imitating their atmosphere. They they are a part of this with a think is of a very valid and worthy movement and it pushing forward and it's very attractive again. It's it's it's one of those things that I think ultimately we're going to get something out of this and then ultimately will probably be good and, I think, racially to be fantastic. I think his big explosion of tension is going to be awesome. All settled down because we're gonna realise how ridiculous it is to the look at people and base how you treat them or how you feel about them, based on their appearance because of what part of the world their ancestors came from. Its justice
bid. As looking at someone because of their hair, color are their eye color. Amid imagine a world where all blue eyed people were devils, we hate him all. It says fucking stupid it did things that are completely outside of your control should have Celine. Nothing to do with how a person values you as a human being- and I think most people have an experienced this that there's a there's something out there. Maybe it's on the internet, but my colleague Jimmy Balance and built this. We are experienced called walk of a thousand walk of a thousand cuts or ten thousand cuts. She put the veal, or on you see yourself, a reflection of you and then you turn a dial or, u turn a dial, and then your skin, if you're caucasian becomes black african American, and then walk down a city street and very interesting. I've done this experience and people look at you out of the corner of their eye. Like I've, never experience that before the virtual people to the virtual people. Looking you other corner, I gotta get em up,
he beat up version there. Isn't that option in their there's a different. We, our experience or you can bring people up there is there is he should go? Thou records? I love you too, but you don't feel anything of the hour boxing game and weird because when they hit you like you get a flash gives you gets you a little nervous. You really do feel like you're spar, born hit them. There's no satisfaction, while you use to the real thing, there's nothing like that: real impact right, there's, there's no replacement for four everything's reels by again hit or even hitting a bag. I mean it's It would be nice to meet. You don't really have to hit a person, but if, if you, if you hit the thing like if they can figure out a way to make a robot that was interacting with the visa. Our program that understood were the footsteps of the earth is so it's in the correct position. So as you hid it that's where it should be, and you could actually push off of it. I knew it back up a little and then you can hit
so you get caught him by. I bet it is it's coming and I I should be clear, like I'm, not a total techno file, I think we're using the text that we have now is the best we got, and I hope that in five years with all these amazing, it years, arms round by and elsewhere that we won't be using that tackle. We do something completely different, some sorry to interrupt. You observe the the when you are in this different race and you're walking, the street you get us this feeling did. Is there racism. Yes, you go to a job interview, understand Next to somebody else, you're actually sit sit seated down and then the interviewer comes in and says hello, nice, to meet you and they put out their hand and shake the persons and next to you like I, and then you put out your hand and they don't shake it. They go nice to meet you. They do not. They make eye contact and then you go into a different set of experiences. It takes you through about ten minutes of these experiences and what's intro thing about it is none of them is so overwhelming that you're, like all my God, this is more. It must be like, but What's interesting, as I did that express three years ago,
retie my walk past black person on the street. I now I'm triggers a frame of mind, I'm thinking How I react, I'm thinking about it it, whereas before I wasn't I've, never consider myself a racist person. I don't now, but It fundamentally changed the way that I experience interactions with people on the street, and that was at ten minutes. Or so or twenty minutes or soviet experience, and that's just the tip of the iceberg about what possible. I think we really. What it tells me is that, because of how stringently gated plasticine its policies of vaulted by these come, What we need to bring those chemicals into play if we want people to change the way they feel. I dont think watching a protest on this. We can do it. I think the George Fly good thing absolutely did. It was a very dramatic terrible example. It went. It was visceral to watch that and I think that's. Why the effect it did it underscores. Essentially, I really
We ve been saying about new chemicals being the gates to changing the brain. Without that's not gonna happen. What I'm talking about this Our programme highlights one of the reasons why dont like cities like Manhattan, I'd like you to visit, but I don't want to live there, because you don't say hide everybody right. You can't you're. Just in opting hi, how are you hey? What's up highlighting kitty human safari? It's ok! I was in New York is a human safari, but it's like that again signalled a noise like a person ass to have a cap on their head, nay, kid end on fire before you like, oh wow, maybe it's just that it's very impressed Does it there's a sort of weird thing that happens when you get around large numbers of people where they don't become they're, not as valuable because there? you're overwhelmed by them, they're, so many of them, whereas of Europe small town of twenty thousand people and you walk down the street- knows a guy walk and towards you you look at each other, your hey man? I do, and I like that too,
What I like about New York, as I felt like it's you added airlines in irish black people wipe you importer. He can people yes, and so there's a you also experience them right? You see that an the Bay area, love the Bay area, but one of the problems I have of the barrier is its become. You know. People are hidden away a lot more there isn't that the in allowing our culture is well, it's a car culture in every place has its is. China Just what I think New York is such a beautiful experiment in putting a bunch of people with different genetic and they're together pudding, together and saying you know may not all get along, but at least you will hear those those accents you'll get your her staff in five different languages, and I think there is a real beauty I wonder why certain doubts can change because a covert, because obviously people were terrified of being jammed no subway now strangers in that was one of the cool things about New York is that you did,
walks of life, poor and rich- would interact with each other on the street in LA there's. Virtually none of that and there's this weird sort of separation, between people and where they live, and then also the car thing car cultures me it just you, you're in your own little environment. You set up your but a world, and that's your car and you're driving around in these other people. You interact with that's a little segment their world that they're taking with them on the four or five, and because of that I have the same sort of melting pot aspect that you do get a New York New York really, uniquely in I grew up in Boston. It doesn't have it in a Boston as like. There's public transport is the tea in a rather train it like that sought. Nearly is prevalent in the subway system in your city or the walking in New York City everybody's walking, and you have to be right up next to it. I think martial arts has this a bit as well. I grew up skateboarding those sport and I loved about- is for joy. It's like all ages. So
weird sport in that way? Yet locating I would grow men and told her all. Is it yeah, and so you get this big mixing pot, but also ethnically so diverse. Wasn't always like that, but you ve got a vietnamese Maxine plaque, your white kids, everything hanging out together, whoever can get there till dawn drop in and go here. That's great science is making a an effort, and I now, especially after the recent events in the world to try and bring in more diversity, and it's a desperate need, because you want that diversity of pinion, you want the diversity of outlook, etc, were fortunate to have african american Collagen, our departure, is actually a small department and there's an immense. Neither I think science is going to be more diverse in the years to come. That's it that's a focused effort now that the National Institutes of Health is gonna, put money and energy into this, thankfully, but there can always be more done, but I think one thing about kids in rural plasticity like whenever skateboarding anymore. It wasn't very good
anyway, but I did enjoy- and I loved the community around that. I think more of that. Please for the next generation, more things like that. Any martial arts is great. You go into Germans like doesn't matter really where you're from grant special a spar if you're gonna get in and start boxing round, you have to be able to take it, and it's not about background. It's about what you can do, yeah. That is really important it's just more of those things where people can interact with all kinds of different people gives you a more balanced perspective it gives. You of. It gives you a broader perspective right, you get a seat in the end and when bringing back to the way the brain function, the more variables that you have in terms of when you see a person, you know You know so many different examples of human beings that you have more than nah upon and I hope the one
things! It comes out of this George Floyd thing and then the black lives matter protest is people have more open minded approach towards just human beings in general, and I think these things like they happen in these big explosive moat. These big explosive events then shit. And, I think, were absolutely experiencing a like a global consciousness shift and it's very chaotic and said SIRI in some ways for a lot of people are now by think ultimately going to come out of this. The better, and, if you look like say, Steven Pinker work where he covers, you know they hissed free of human beings and interactions. We are in the best time ever and it's hard to say that, because you know they're still, poverty is still violence in is still crime and still racism and sexism and rape and all sorts of awful shit, but its way less and way better than it was
was just a hundred years ago or two hundred years ago, and it seems to constantly be moving in that trend and I'm hoping that that's going to be what comes out of this, this is going to be another event. That, as the dust settles and as the lessons are learned and as we're gonna get her feet back on the ground and we understand what went wrong what happened to particularly because of this, this corrupt virus situation that wherein where would you know everything's and chaos everything's thrown up in the air? Thirty something per cent of people can't pay the rent right. Now, it's not stir unemployment rates through the roof. It's crazy! It's terrible are born every time. I you know, I think big able to take someone else's frame of mind or reference just as an exercise. It so hard over. We become kind of autistic in our way of justice, We, like our experience, is the one experience and just being able to try and think about what it must be like over the last three months to I have any income see. You're, Jim, your business open then shot again at least California incredibly stressful,
Its pulling on all the leavers that create in colonel tension and outward physical explosion and win. I I I am domestic in terms of the long arc of this, but right now We are in the pressure point yet rough rough to bring it back to your work once easy talked about was eyesight regaining eyesight or dealing with people that have weakening eyesight mice, it's gonna shit do hasn't, get a regular indifferent, no, no, I'm just old fifty two, and just as the macular degeneration. Ok, I'm an accurate. My phone, I can read always text messages that are common in fourteen new ones. Since I put my phone but what I do know for sure that my vision is not as good as it was ten years ago and certainly not as good as it was twenty years ago. What can be done? Okay, so here's what can be done now and we were headed, but I suspect you want to know what can be done now fixed Mars. Okay, so we do have
clinical trial in my lab right now, through my Felicia with ophthalmologists, where people put on our goggles very separate from the fear inducing thing it's actually very pleasant experience and We use a particular pattern of stimulation that debates. The cells in the eye that are most vulnerable and create vision, loss its. Me like those in a way that reinforces their connections with the brain, that's the logic so every cell, in your eye, has a different form. But some of them their job, is to transmit visual information to the rest of the brain, they're called ganglion cells. We No, what patterns of activity make them healthy and what reinforce regeneration back Twenty sixteen, my lab published a paper showing that that particular point turn of stimulation, combined with a particular pattern of gene therapy. So this is why an injection into the eye of a gene that triggers growth of these cells in mice.
That allowed regeneration of neurons that were damaged and it actually reversed slightly, but it reverse blindness completely blind mice. Were able to see again so that was in mice. We then took that built a human clinical trial. Using just a vcr part. However, some people in this trial receiving injections it's about once every month, very painless injection into what we call the vet so the they should run and the eyeballs yeah slow insulin, syringe, go right in you. Look that way: boomed sealed off them all just can do this without any pain or anything. I know it sounds terrible, but its very straightforward to inject they got so c n T, F, ciliary new trophic factor, the combination of this growth factor, plus the visual stimulation we believe is going to protect cells that would normally be lost from getting lost so offset vision, loss and potentially
restore vision. Now the results of this trial are done, but we are recruiting people for this Trot Amy IRAN's right as a good anyone about prisoners Ok and ITALY and prisoners are really bad people, but they can see that the injection part provide it's done by a released by skilled ophthalmologists is isn't it's it's a cinch. You you ve been through way worse this morning on your way to work, trust me. So it's it's nothing, the other thing is that there was a paper published just recently a couple weeks ago, not from my lab but from a group over university college. London. Looking at the effects of red light on, might a conduit in a different cell type, which are the photo receptor so the ice. Yet the cells that connect the ITA wrinkled gangway selling at the photo sectors which take all this photon information. Turning into this incredible thing, we call vision which itself as a whole galaxy of information, but is amazing. And those cells degenerate over time. The photo sceptres they don't do very well in part because, as we age, the mitochondrial function gets
dropped in this study was preliminary. Wasn't very many subjects a thing. It was only twenty subjects. Maybe it was twelve, but getting red light therapy jazz doing a very bright flashes of red light of a particular wavelengths. I want people go another blasting their eyes, improved vision on vision, tests almost immediately and that's a very non invasive approach and I believe One of those red light therapy machines that one of the chief yet it's pretty little different than this. If you're interested in doing this, let me know, and as we can, potentially yet no into this move would be the difference red light therapy in the other kind of red light therapy, because I really like that, You think, I'm not exactly sure what it does its best to regenerate college in and do a bunch indifferently helps you, but it feels good to stand in front of it and the bright You know, one of the things is remember we're saying that the eyes are actually piece of brain. Your brain needs to know when to be awake and want to be asleep. One of the best ways to wake up your brain is to view bright light. And in other all these people, their fanatic about blue light out their view,
one bright light in the morning from sunlight is the moon is the best thing like in southern California: go outside to ten minutes again bright right and then you avoid light from like eleven p m to four p m actually has been shown to suppress melatonin, can disrupt sleep as a lot of problems. Europe really won't be looking at any bright light in building a lot if you'll get thus with blue light being bad one bright light in the day, and you don't want any bright light at night, really too much of it and people come after me, though, like the blue Blocker, Can I call like the blue blocking these does have been coming after me recently, because our mouth or Saint life is like one about the insight look. The blue blockers will help filter some light. It'll make things less, bright it's hard to see with sunglasses in your house so be my guest and where
But really what you want to do is deemed the lights in the evening. Deeper sleep, melatonin suppression isn't won't be a problem that, oh, that's, all good, get bright, light first thing in the morning when you wake up and then the bright red light is probably having a dual affect its probable increasing mitochondrial photo receptors. If the study is right, I do believe this study has. It looks really good to me and the person who did it. Been in the game a long time. So I trust him and, in addition, that's gonna, wake up your system and get the balance of these hormones like you want quarters all high in the morning in an melatonin coming up about sixteen hours later before sleep, it's gonna put all that into the right rhythm. So I say: go ahead and do the the red light thing, but if you want to pursue the red light flashes where they ve are, and maybe even the sea Anti F injection, where we should talk about that sea, Anti, F and G, I mean the bacteria. They support a right in your eyeballs doubts that growth factor, but I'm scared of that. Well, but the Good NEWS is the Good NEWS. Is the visa are. We do have a condition in the study where it's just a vcr, so it's a daily at your essentially your nerves.
Like to be active in these cells, connect, the eye. The brain are v most, above all, others be most active neurons and cells in your entire do If anybody has done this, where they have the injections and the ice was urea, many people are now in the study of had the injections. We enjoy the benefits of the of the well. So I want to be carefully. I can talk about the results of a clinical trial them ass. I can see their promising and this is inhuman, just wink you should do it will give you can fix my eyes. I think if you, if you qualify for the study, I definitely think you should do it, but, like I can't reveal that the results of the study- She don't know in the name of good site, I'm blinded to the conditions, no pain bright like I just don't know, but we have. We have some x or patients that are as young as seventeen as old as eighty and that's the beauty of this is that its, if you decide not to get the injection
Willie Non invasive and how many injunctions jumped up. I think that once a month for a period of about six months, so we'll have to go to the Bay area. Once a month no so they're? So there is another version of this where there's a slow release, polymer capsule, that's that's placed into the. I just want to say that I found the and worse, but just inject me whether I was some day we will have dropped that will get through the vitreous and down their costs are like. Like we work on glaucoma my lap, he will forgive commenting, drops rye pressure but get things into you'll, remember its brain, and so there is a reason why you have this tough scholar are gonna, be able to think that way. Ok, that the brain things really fuckin my head up: the fact that your eyeballs are you're a good both to us is the brain so not to peace of the brain, and so this your pair is soon gonna go the way of two other strategies- and I think we're gonna see this in humans in the next couple years, meaning two years, because I hate that ten years thing we ve been here in the ten years. Think wherever one is the work
some of you have said here before David Sinclair, love that do scrape is terrific guy, both forsake of his work on combating aging and also just really have to get my hat and because he was real, first man in terms of doing public, facing science, education through podcasting things like that, and in I'm I'm trying to do that and others are starting to do it and he deserves credit, for that is it puts scientists in a vulnerable place, and I think he's doing it with a lot of integrity is also got a fund personality, so great yeah yeah, so for him to get the point cross so day It's not typically known for doing vision, research, but he peered up with another guy slab. Again he was young he at Harvard Children's hospital. So I know very well. We worked together a number of things and they took advantage of all these Yamanaka factors. Yamanaka won the Nobel Peace Prize for funding. These four factors that could essentially to allow a cell to turn into anything. Any other cell type can create stevinus in these cells. Make them pluripotent cells, the problem was that tends to induce cancers in these cells so David.
Lab, has combined and anti cancer gene. I think these these workers still not publish, but he's talked about them, so I feel comfortable doing this suppresses cancer while turning these cells young again and it least in mice. They see some very encouraging results, so that would be a sort of one injection kind of thing we going once you get the injection than never again. If I did it and Jackson once a month, how long we dog and how many months stuff four, so this study would probably run for about six months or the embedded capsule vicinity of capsule, combined with the vizier they have to put those. We are goggles on for twenty minutes a day and values that, even with an amusing do whatever you want a very positive thing that triggers activity themselves. The activity is key as we know that neurons your fire together, wire together and all the other stuff. But the fact is neurons that are quieted, even if you can, the norm. The neurons that support movement that arm very quickly start to turn off and eventually they can die,
so you keeping neurons active and alive and healthy involves keeping them literally active electrically into that's what this dvr components of em, so there's the Sinclair kind of turning back the clock stuff and then, colleagues of mine at Stanford or doing incredible work with neural prosody prostheses, a little robotic. Retinas as well as stem cells that are injection to the eye that settled down into your. I give you, the cells that you ve lost and we're not quite therewith human trials yet, but there is a group, the retinal, Our initiative on part of this thing. It has a kind of funny name. What is called the retinal dream team, which has a bunch of people brought together to to cure blindness to solve blindness in opportunities. Disease called Neurofibromatosis, so there are dozens of labs working extremely hard on this problem. This is one place where I can say, there's been tremendous progress in the last five years. There are clinical trials now, for instance, the one in my lab and in two or three years, you're gonna start seeing people who
normally go blind. You're gonna, halt that and you're gonna see people who are completely blind. I think, eventually those people will see again yeah tat. I have a maze It's amazing any blind people their mental real day, the mental real they would like. The visual real estate in the brain gets taken over by other functions. There Sky dead man, Siena, he's escape orders completely blind, so amazing, I am keyboards blind with Cain, rides, Upton rise up to curves and handrails, always on tomb, kick flips out this honestly, regular yeah and an Iphone, from a bunch of times, because he was having some issues with his sleep, because at one of these the blind people have is because light is controlling, went to be alert, went to be asleep his on some issues with this, so he contacted me we're so in touch cause we're trying to he's trying to escape parts for blind kids. So there is right there out check out in LA that,
say such a list- and we must be will be- it would be afraid to do this without that's crazy yeah and what What's so great about Dan. Is he also? You know that is not as he's in graduate school he's. I he's such a he's, tapping, things, so he knows where they are. But how did you know scale of the ramp or the pitcher the ramp. He has an internal representation of it. Why? That's bonkers he's? Really! She could see how cool it as there is yeah he's. He teaches blind kids like what's possible. They talk about covert and being indoors blot blind people for a long time, a blind you because of the visual restoration stuff and there people like Dan. Her out there trying to get blankly will come out of the room to get into exile. If you have a dog you're, better off right as the dog, you outsource your vision of the dawn. There are now glasses that blind people can wear
walk down the street and it communicates with somebody in a like a dispatcher who says: oh, you know what there's someone sketchy over there to your right. You don't want to History and it works really well, but is very expensive and, of course, you pay This is an issue. We start undressing union what the person like looking at you in the mirror right. You know! Maybe people do, but that's it hold it from business. You know, but but people Dan are amazing and- and I do believe that the hope is that people again will then she see again ah, but that's good require new cells and actually for him. He's gonna need new eyes. Sudan, ash. Has had because he had this coats disease that lead to erect nice pigment towser, he had his eyes were moved so when where people are like the assembly's you'll see on social media people say, I believe, he's blind. It's like gazing them eyes
Well, there's a lot. That's a whole universe is, but if you'd like to explore visual repair and visual restoration, offsetting vision lost more than happy to further yeah. I would love to now be a guinea pig gets Party Roland. Did we just three hours? Oh, my grazing sorry now. Colleges are also raised great conversation. I really appreciate it We want to get a hold of you on social media. What's your twitter, you have Twitter Interim Committee. I have a twitter, I don't use it! I'm on Instagram its Hubert LAB h. You be a r m ay and allay B. I teach in our science there big on public education, beautiful and am we recruit subjects it allowed for studies every now and again, I will announce them there and dumb yeah there. That's the deal Eventually. Arms was read a book, but I'm I've been too busy doing science, but there's a man. This was so much fun and I think we can produce a hundred of these. So let's do it again You very my here really regime by everybody. Thank you
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Transcript generated on 2020-07-23.