Nancy Panza, Ph.D, is a Professor of Psychology at Cal State Fullerton. She has also worked within county, state, and federal facilities providing clinical and forensic services for juvenile and adult offenders and has provided services for police departments in New York City, Alabama, and Southern California.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Teeter Dotcom, Slash, Rogan, that's t e e t, r dot com, Slash Rogan, all right, my guest today is a police psychologists and a professor at California State University of Fortune, and she came on the pod cas too Scots insights in current issues in policing, Psychology of it was very insightful the psychology of the pressure of the job and what it what it takes to help officers and what could be done to improve a lot of these things. Very very insightful. I hope you enjoy it. Please welcome Nancy pants,
The job will gain experience by Jo Leinen. Nancy hockey show how are you I am doing well days rain here. Thank you for having made things for. Let me come and talk my pleasure so tell her, but we do so I am well my day job, I'm a professor in psychology, departmental caustic, Fullerton and, and my side gig, I am a forensic and police psychologist that is a very appropriate subject for the strange times we find ourselves in right now indeed so, as you are watching all this play out from the George Floyd murder to where we're out right now. What
What is has been like for you, since this is your field of study that weird place to be in your kind of for me caught in between two worlds. That seems I mean my job is to take care of police officers, so keep them healthy, keep them well to make sure that they can do a good job, doing their jobs, and so the first thing He is we got a mess on our hands for me. When I see a lot of the videos then end up in on on tv, my initial reaction as well: let's have a lock. Is there some really to be upset about here and why we see in seeing the video of George Floyd's murder there's a whole lot to be upset about here, and so you know, heartache comes from that and then my you know my next responses to kick in is ok with we ve got problems on both sides. We need to not only figure out why such things are happening.
And prevent them, because that's not good. Nobody wants bad policing. Even the police, don't look bad policing. On the other hand, how do we also take care of our officers who are their who now have to go out and continue doing their jobs in a really difficult over overwhelming environment. Yeah. It's such a strange time because, one hand you, you got all these people that are calling out for defending the police- and you know this is here a point of view, the bench Piero had when he talked about the protests he said He said saying there. Mostly peaceful protest is like saying: o J Simpson had a mostly peaceful day when he can Nicole something's, he was only violent for a couple minutes. Ass, the day whose it was mostly peaceful and he's like that's a good one, to describe the protest. I think, you could also say the same thing about the police department. The police, department and police officers are most
we good people doing a good job problem is when one all these millions of interactions when one goes bad or there's a bad officer. People see that They highlight that and then they say this. The cops! These are the cops, I don't think. That's true I've met a lot of great police officers. I know a lot and it's an insanely, difficult job. I don't think they get paid enough. Did they get respected enough? I don't think a trained. Well enough. I had shockoe willing on here, whose form Let me see your commander and his perspective is very clear It's like they do not train enough, because if I wasn't controlled it between twenty percent of their time too percent of their weak would be spent in training D. Escalation. Drills safety, drills had a hand no things. If one day when your partners is losing its cool,
all sorts of drills that they should be doing that they do in the Navy seals that they should be doing in the police department is well yet. I listened tear your pot, Casbah chalk on it, and I was, I was blown actually listen to twice. Doesn't it the first time it was like? Yes, yes, yes, CS. I loved everything that he had to say when he's a real leader, he so good, he so good and in his idea about training was I mean I am in full agreement and for the twenty percent training thing would be would be super hard, especially now where we arcas monies going away not coming around. That would mean twenty percent of the force would be off. Training and we'd need that many more officers and not many people on duty? You know to fill in the active, so you know well that be a dream, and I think he's right all those skills that you need. If you're not actively, you know the training and keeping them up to par they're, going to they're gonna go away, yearn decay, but on top of what he said, the peace where I was like
but let me come in and talk with. You, too, is is that you know he thinks, like the warrior that he is. You know Navy seal, super tough guy talking about firearms and he's right. The firearms training is probably not enough, but what's even more so, especially in today's world and society. Is that when you look at the the make up of a police academy, training, universe, vaults, it's so short and end, they do they get field training after that for a long period of time, and so that that's good at balances it out, but the content of the academy. You know by far most of that time and training is spent learning laws, learning that kind of text book of of what it is to be a cop and how to function. And then the other parts there's the physical training and the firearms training. But if you look at what happens once a police officer gets out there on the job and what they're doing a hue the percentage of it is in communicating, and there is almost none, almost none the example I think of it comes to mind most when I, prior to being it cost a fortune. I was a faculty member
John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York and so in the city. We wurtz we did trainings with the Nypd. We had a contract to do de escalation training so when there were good coming through the academy, they would come over to John Jay and we would have police trainers and, and us the psychologist would come in and made these wonderful actors who are train to portray individuals with mental illness, and we did this interactive de escalation. Training empty. Somehow to talk to somebody Howdah. What do you say? That's gonna, bring someone down as opposed to Us- and it was this- you know- ok ready here- goes this training scenario: we pull these rookies up, who were scared to death. Give em like a block gun, say: ok got like, would blocked on a real weapon, go to it and and engage this individual and our actors are were brilliant and in and portray visa individuals mental illness wonderfully, and you know, inevitably they come in hot and things screaming a that the rookies going further there and be like okay, okay, hold up stop, let's talk about what just happened,
from the psychology side we kind of explained here, that's going on here is why that didn't work with this type of individual, the police, tack, Mina, would come in on the tax. Excited weeds, ok rewind do over, and then we were run up through the scenario- and we would keep stopping in starting in this interactive like hands on training by the end of the day, They were like. I learned more today than I learned in the last two months do, but we got them for one day rule six hours and then that's it. You know so that whole a constant training and giving the skills not just the firearms and the tactics and if you know how to use force properly, but also the commune, haitian and dealing with these stressful situations and and distrust individuals, because that is what they do nonstop day in and day out,. Yeah. I know what you're saying when you were talking about how difficult it would be to actually have them train twenty percent of the time, but I don't think it's difficult. Not that we should ignore. I think that I think, if
some, never gonna be in control, but if I was in control, I would say that's how, it's gotta be and we have to hire more people need. I think they need way more people way better training and I think there so has to be evaluations in terms of like how are they dealing with stress, because it's not just how to de escalate. How to deal with the situation with with a possible criminal. But also, how are you dealing with the fact that every time you gotta work, you might get shot, you might not ever come home their family. How many times, do you see suicide? Sometimes you see murders how many times you see contracts and all that stuff ways on a person absolutely and All those police officers that see that stuff everyday depending entirely upon and that's one of things charcoal talked about their psychological make up. He talked about it with soldiers it some soldiers can see some crazy shit. Billig. So came good girl,
then other soldiers, like I'm fucked up. I don't know what to do here. I M a banks idea, can't sleep, I'm a nervous wreck same thing is to refer for cops. Some folks are they can go through. You know Have the worst call that you could imagine death Gore YO loss of a child's life? I'm in these things are horrific and they see it and you know they they react and it's awful, but they recover and and and there okay, the next day and then Nino. On the opposite hand, you ve got somebody who has it may be a less intense, sir, you nor less her call, and it just put some over the edge, and you know from the psychology side. You know we ve studied this. We ve looked at this. Would it? How can we tell as our way we can predict? You know what type of event, what type of person who who is likely to took to fall apart, tent to end up with a post, traumatic stress disorder account? Can we tell whose likely to develop? But you know a clinical syndrome later and and this the answers we can't there are some things that that we know and obviously
some of them are really logical if you're in a higher state of stress, if you ve, already got vulnerabilities going in Europe in our going through worse at home and unhappy. The job and drink into outside you, ve got all these other things that are already festering underneath, and then you also were put in front of that. You know it's not surprising that that may be would push somebody over the edge into a really troubling place, but other times it's really hard thing to predict, and so instead we need to be there and be on it, and there I mean they're, so many things that can out and about how We do that and in ways that were really falling short, which is kind of my my passion and where I am these days, in trying to do a much better job of being on. You know what we would call Officer Wellness, because we ve historically done her should he job? Is there a standard procedure? like when someone comes back from sake witnessing a murder,
There are standard way that they interact with them across all police departments, or is it depending upon the department and what said The share for the police chief has put in place yet very much depending on the department and what they put in place. So when it comes to like the mental health in psychology that the things that we do with departments are it's it's very standard, these days like I was. I think the number show about eighty nine. Ninety. Ninety eight percent of departments do a pre employment, ah psychological evaluation, before their hired. That's when I spend the majority of my time doing is screening people who are starting the job. So that part is very am I to do. I tell you all about that process beyond what happens from thereon out is very much up in the air depends on the department. Some departments require a what we would call a critical incident debriefing
So some of the agencies that I work with will, if, if somebody is involved or there's a major incident, every officer who is unseen, there will come in and do a deep briefing with mere with another psychologist to check in afterwards, and a lot of that is just where are they power they and this in this moment are they ok to go home? Are they safe and education is also my call it is it's a judgment, call the ones that I've done. I would say most of the time it feels pretty clear cut. Most of the time folks are either they're doing all right there, a little shaken up, which is normal. I mean anybody who experiences something life threatening is gonna, be off off at that point So a lot of what we do in those in those de briefings as education. I have these little hand out that I give to all the officers it go through and say this is what you are likely feeling right now. This is what you are likely to feel in the next couple days and anything
and it goes in a way we send those first few days whatever you're feeling is is is probably ok, but then over the course of the first week. We expect people to settle in industry recovering and if you're not, then we want to start paying it into the ways. Are you still not sleeping? Are you having nightmares are having fought in a what's going on, and you know again varies by department, some of them Well, then, also offer utter for session to come back and continue meeting too to see them that kind of early the adjustment phase and then, if there's ill struggling at the point at the end and we can refer them to longer term for treatment and if everything looks fine, then we say: ok, you know resume duty or clear to go back.
So that that initial meeting afterwards as usual, is mandatory, at least for the departments that choose to do it. That's a mandatory couple sessions afterwards are not there there if needed, and then from there we kind of set the path like all good, clear or let's carry on and keep. You know, keep working with you in You can recover. Do you support this idea that it should be controlled locally by each individual police department or do you think this should be a nationwide mandate like some sort of a US, a standard, operational procedure where they they try everyone the same way train everyone. The same way deal with every single murder, suicide, child death and they have protocol, that they follow so it's just
across the country based on solves I I do. I think many of these things these fundamental pieces should be mandatory. I think the preamble and psychological evaluation is an absolute must, an end again. Most agencies do that peace. I think the critical insanity briefings are an absolute must always occur, and they should be mandatory. Cause up takes away the stigma in no cop Launcelot come see the shrink. They see women in their like lotta here alive. No keep the shrink away, would they're probably trying to deal with their own way yap and then somebody that they don't even know who comes in sports probing and asking questions and Lucy some guy in a suit. It maybe he's never even seen the dead body relocate shut, the fuck up man I know what I'm doing. Let me just go back out there and go to work and the other thing.
That feed into that are, I mean. Obviously, we know lawn force meant just like military. The culture is very your I'm in control run. I got this right, don't need your help. I am tough, I am you know and supported by drawing up and we are each other wrong and so that that culture doesn't make it inviting and talk to her assuring Coronel me I'd person you know end and the other part is that officers are really fearful of Lou. Their jobs, you in having their livelihood taken away, that's a huge deal and depending on the psychologist, if their seeing somebody who is not familiar with law enforcement culture or who? Is you no real, quick to judge and a jump on the no. No, we can have this person out there with a badge and a gun. Sure here there's a really delicate line there. You obviously dont want somebody who's unstable to be out there. We wanted to care of them and get them peeled before there, but at the same time, this is someone's livelihood. This is there. This is their being
This is who they are and to take that away, haphazard LEO carelessly or needlessly is, is really scary and although they they really do need to have that front. So that's why like the mandatory debriefing is so important, because if it's working pick you and you a new dress. You guys are fine and they ve been singled out, aunts and uncles online. It's a subjective judgment call right. So that's. Where gets weird and I can make a comparison to referring in fights some referee stop fights. Or other referees would lead the fights go on like this really and makes people so anger in Istanbul. Fight quickly If someone comes in and says this guy's not ready, he can't go back on the force. Because guess what are you talking about? I'm fine? Maybe he is fine, and maybe the guy just has a weird sense of people into like when you have judgment calls like that, like what criteria. Are they using using just their own personal opinion that they have to fit a set of guidelines,
like what, when they say, this guy's not fit to go back on this treaty. Seen too much his two shaken up. This murder scene, I kind of how do they make their call so cunning depends on what, scenario beer making that decision so there and there's two different levels that are most likely so that the debriefing is usually unless the person is completely shaken, its wits, let's run goods to a scenario, I pull some guy over. The guy reaches for a gun, shoots at the officer. They officer shoots, the person kills them. You know big enough. Stu NEWS the whole deal, the guys on television. They show the body can footage, and then, This guy has to do an evaluation and then go back to work and how would one decide whether or not that guy's ok to go back to work for they gonna get multiple actors, mental state, basic mental state as our starting? And how do you do that so question
since, in the deep briefing were unlikely to pull into our bag of tests, which you know in the other scenarios, big psyche Now we're gonna dig into our test. That's what we do a psychologist snarled evermore eyes when if you know like that, like an MP, I let me throughout other legislative personality tests and test that show different levels of you know of pathology or clinical issues and problems, anxiety, depression. You know bodily function like physical examination check their heart rate. I with Russia. As a psychologist, I would not, though, what I'm looking at is their mental state and just basically their overall functioning. So are they? Are they but to go about their daily activities. You know, and if this is right after the scene, I won't. I don't know this yet it's right after this I will be going and sitting down talking with them if they want to talk what happened in kind of run through the scenario we have them, do that that can be very telling if their comfortable sharing that that detail are they able to do
bribery. Are they able to get through it without breaking down? Are they able to talk in a sort of clearly, even emotionally, as is expected in and fine. In fact, somebody Has zero emotion? After that? I would be like what you know what's happening when we feel em, but in that view no immediate pardon. It's really just looking to see. What's going on what's happening, are they able function. Are they able to safely go home? Are they having any? It's not hurting themselves. Are they know? Are they feeling like they are? you no kind of losing their mind anything that justice is completely out and left field. What we often do is working on the scene. Only if the agency want someone to check in right, there are more often than not see them a day later. Usually it's our rules, years within the first forty eight hours so I'll see them within the first couple days off words and they'll come in and at that point they ve been able to get through at least one night asleep. I can see if they're sleeping, if their eating, if they ve,
open to anyone. Are they having any major, really strong emotional reactions, and so we're cut looking to see? What are you feeling what You're thinking what's happening and in it kind of within the realm of what we would expect and do you need any additional supports right now why you're in this sort of immediate short term. After after wrath the only times that really I'm likely to say you're, not ready to go back. Are that the ones that stuff daughter when number one, the officer hammer herself says I cannot do this right, I am referring to using the it's rare. It's rare, I mean maybe four times in how many well total years? I've been doing for about fifteen, but more recently out here in the last few, is kind of what I'm thinking of since I've been doing more than you know out of out of a few hundred, so it's not and so on,
What is the protocol it? How to handle that see? If there's an officer that can't go back, they sides can endless right now. Maybe they see a horrific child murderers and plurality. What what did they do to get back on track and would what assistance does the force offer them? So the odds are that, even without and in that scenario, if they ve been involved in a shooting, especially being the shooter, their likely to be on an admin leave anyway, while everything's being reviewed cause the agency side. You know the investigations and all the procedures an inch acts are going on so they're, probably not going back up to the street right away anyway, while all that stuff gets cleared soak. So that's a good thing. They get a few days to get their wits about them. Well. There. You know cunning coming down in recovering from that, so you know odds. Are there not right, jumping right back out anyway? but what happens and in that time, when you know he's okay, somebody's just not ready. We usually say let's check back in in a week or two weeks to pending
you know? We are usually will discuss it with them and say you know, let's meet again in a week, take the time and then I'll check it yep check back in these other just on their own. We need more time here when you say time, leave me alone. Let em figured out themselves yet well, let them go if I want to come in and continue if it's an urgent matter, the person's feeling like they might hurt themselves we're gonna continue to see and support and do whatever we need to do to take care of that person is a giant issue too. Homicide amongst police officers, is a huge issue. Although its much more likely to happen from somebody who has not recently been seen, in these the sometimes happen happened are the ones that are out there. There still function on the job, we have now idea what's going on because nobody is checking and on that person's mental health Volker, so it not after seeing some horrific incident or being part of a shooting its the overall stress of the job right, that is one of the biggest problems out their feelings,
we do in ok job having these deep briefings right afterwards, because we can monitor we check back and periodically and we keep touching touching base and two were feeling you know comfortable that the persons good we also in those de briefings, get to educate them and say, hey hearer, you know, I give him those fires and say: look here's what we know here. Some good things to do. Your some bad things to do here is what it might feel like. If any of these things are off, here's my information, call me and come back again. Is it a real problem with conscious not wanting to help because there, because, as you know, the fear, if, though, the fear also and their tough guy get alot of em and tough girls, find out if they get inside By this I mean the whole job is about being in control everything you all up on you are in control that command presence is necessary to be,
officer and so to not be in control. It just feels terrible. I mean for anybody for any human it's hard to make a call to at their best and say I need a little help any. Who's made? Whose thought you know what I'm not doing so over, and I really feel like I could use picking up that phone and calling to seek help is a baby. So far as the legal adviser, yeah there's a stigma theirs. I do. I really need this just as hard to pick up and you don't wanna be the that won't help all the time. Ok right about yourself, and can this person really help me? Who is this going to be? How do I find that there is a lot of the most frequent question again, my friends and family people, I'm thinkin. I might need to see someone like how do I go about doing that? Get the quest and all the time, so you for cops, it's even bigger, Cosette or control thing and also, like I said before, their job is on the line, and course so for these cops are in that situation. So when they say look, I need to take some time off you. U basic
Lee just leave me alone and say: if you want these resources here they are today a mean is look again It's gonna very by development does not crazy. That does very by department yet chase me nuts. And is, as this discussion been had like nationwide. There's there. So many good things, pieces of advice and recommendation out there, one of the things that kind of painful right now. Is you know. Every morning I get a news recap from the international cessation of chiefs of police they send this email out to all the all the members of their and they give the psychological services group, and so you get these updates, and I I I usually just pass him over, but lately with all the police reform. So just headlines from around the country and the piecemeal randomness of of this city, doing this, and this city's doing this in the cities during this innocent and it's all over the place. The same, that's driving me not cause, I'm leg,
There has already been groups that have studied and reported and told us what we need to do to help the the world of policing rise up, then do better. We view that informations out there from from wonderful, brilliant people have come together and have laid out for us it's there. But yet we we don't, have National standard each state has certain, or you know, most states have a group I can California to California Post. You know it's that police officer standards and training, so they set all the Rules for training report, minimal training requirements for all the departments in California. So all the agencies, police agencies here in this state, are you know need to comply with all the post recommendations, but they're all you know it's a minimum standard and our post, California, posters kind of heads entails ahead of most of the country. Some some states don't actually have that organization. Most do have something similar to like what
yeah. So they do set some standards but there's so many things that are not included in that and so it is a bit it. You know random. It's hard, I think, to make a one size fits all. Everybody must do this because, if you think about it, I think there is about eighteen thousand different police agencies in the: U S and I think I read about fifty percent of those have ten or fewer full time officers. So you know when you ve got powder tiny little town in the middle of you know the MID west in a very rural county, that that's that's a whole lot different than LAPD. So it's hard to have everybody on the same standard in the same expectations when we ve got a lot different make up for a lot of different departments. That said, there are some fundamentals that I think every department should be held to. And in one of those is the DE briefings after an incident and the one that that
Almost no one is doing. That's been talked about for a while as regular mental wellness checks. You know at this point you get a psyche val when you're hired or before your hired and if you're in critical incident you may or may not get one more more are starting to do that. And then the only other time you're gonna be required to see the psychologist is if you have messed up and you're in trouble, and you referred for a fitness for duty evaluation and at that point your job is on the line. Someone is saying that they think you're. Now fit for duty and not as a scary evaluation to have to be a part of then you're going in and and yeah if the psychologist judges and decides that you not able to go back out more than your there you're off duty until you can fix whatever that problem may be right, also just for the public's health and welfare. It's important to do that.
Shortening there clearly are a lot of police officer that are unfit for duty. How how do we stop? what happened in Minneapolis. How do we stop that from from happening or at least mitigate it? So I mean again? I I see everything through my loans as a psychologist as early psychologist, so I'm sure where there are things beyond my realm that that also answer this question. But for me the things that I think we could be doing different. That would really make a difference. Are the regular and you all mental wellness checks if it from my perspective, when I look at people like you know, dirt Jovan made the officer that that murdered George Floyd and we see what happened there
here? I would say I would be willing to gas, and I dont know him. I ve never met him. I don't know much about his career other than what I read in the news in and what not police officers that get to that place become that were there not that, when their higher through to get hired has a cop you have to go through what often takes a year, long application process where they are digging and poking into every aspect of your background. You must be clear, though, boats in some places places its pretty easy. It again smaller depart that don't have the resources programme. Probably so, I went options, a pretty easy in comparison in comparison yet, but the vast majority of departments have a pretty you know: have a similar process and then you're gonna go through the application. You have to pass a written test there's gonna be a background investigation which really, I think, is a hugely powerful key part
that it should be a well done background investigation. You know they're talking to people who you know people from your past. Your landlord Europe, Why, if your girlfriend your boy, they have the resources. Do there forever sue Kennedy they do now. Some agencies take far more care than others that the wide variety of people that I see that, if passed their backgrounds, some agencies, I workforce and maybe most amazingly clean candidates and others trying to hire a lot less squeaky clean, but they ve they ve all gone through and it is in a gun. This background. They also do polygraph They do social media checks. They you know they make you lost. Your tattoos- and you know so they're they're looking for and if there is somebody who is just flagrantly racist, has you know what you know been out there, toting white supremacy eat like they're, gonna they're gonna, see that somewhere in that digging around, so that the the blatant racist folks are likely weeded out during a good background.
Us us, let's say maybe they're not as openly as you know. We all know that people know but than to admit to such things most of the time these days, and it could be more subtle. So, at that point, what comes next you ve got oral interviews with you, no police administrators polygraph, NATO coming along in there and once they pass all of that? That's when they come to the last they get their conditional offer of employment so that, basically like as long as you get through these last two steps, you're you're good to go for the occasion in the last who stopped so the medical evaluation and the psyche val. So by the time we get them, they have been heavily vetted poked around. Do you know n, N n and looked through in their past, and we get a we get. A pretty clean group of people but then we get to do more digging and we get asked questions at this point that there are not able to ask before so about mental health and background and psychological treatment in history, and so you know by the UN If they get through these evaluations, then they go.
To the academy, so for us that vetting process that psyche values are really important place and I've had a law, conversations with other psychologists. You know in the past few months like what are we missing? I've had a daughter workshop a couple months ago, further police psychologist and in some of the things we do in these pre employments and had someone say: how do we screen out the cops who kill and I said we can- and that was not a good answer- that we can. We can't because we have to what we're doing here, is predicting the Future were saying. How do we know? Who is going to be that person who does that later, predicting the futures incredibly hard. Figuring out, who may be on suddenly racist or bias is also incredibly hard. So that said, we do a whole lot of things. We ve got our psychological test that we gave. We ask a lot of crafty questions and we dig as deep as we can to try to again weed out
Anyone who we think could potentially become person down the road who could be a cop who kills are, who you know is racism bias in is treating people properly. So I you know, that's one big thing that we want to be very cautious and make sure we're doing a good job of screening up front. But I would say in so much more to say about the tests and the screening but gets really nerdy and in detail. I would say that the officers who end up having the most problems are the ones who, once they get on, are in a department where that is the culture that that, at that those types of behaviors are acceptable. So now is young officer. They learn, have you ever seen the documentary, the seven five. I have not it's a great documentary about Michael Dowd, who has been a guess on the park ass. He was, he was a terrible cub and talks. Only about how he was corrupted and how is first day on the force, he he witnessed corruption and was told, shut its mouth and further one
and become a drug dealer and robbing drug dealers and disk. It's crazy documentary. You enjoy it. ITALY from a psychological perspective because he's talking about it after having serve time just showing the images from the time and telling the stories it's the cold. Sure of each individual department is different and some are great. There's a great video of Floyd flip Michigan, where these police officers, after the George Floyd death, they show up for these protests and tell these people protesting we're gonna March with you, like we're part of this community too. We are we, your friends we are police officers, but we are not the person you did that thing and we wouldn't do that thing and we want to show you that we support you and they were here to help. Does that really. We want it's beautiful
cool, see them all march together in their hugging. That's what we want right is then, and I think that one of the biggest things only you know how do we prevent these these issues as we need to look at the individual officer, of all but right wing, because I think that is very limited, because I think the racist angry cop, who kills has developed that way over time- and I think one of the pieces of the culture and the department is this. Something that's acceptable is their corruption. In that department, and so certainly better oversight and tracking is a really important thing. You know that that should happen, but the other piece in the one that but then I focus more on for my aunt is the wellness you know is this. Somebody who is burning out is, as somebody who has gone into a dangerous place. You know psychologically that they started out and they were fine. Mommy screen them up front, but you know over five over ten or fifteen years. They ve seen so much, and you know that some want their things.
Been in your brain. That change the way you think and see and perceived the world when you do this type of work run and when you get to a place where those where that those processes have have really taken there too, all and somebody has gone down this kind of dark path. It's hard to come on to that end, and their way they react to the world and the individuals that they see on a daily basis is going to be very different than what they look like when they were hired so far, not regularly, checking Anne and seeing who might be at risk fur going to that dark place that better and angry place you know: we're not able to catch them before something happens, and that's where you know for me, my my big platform as regular wellness tracks, I'm not the first one to come up with this idea. It's been suggested by task forces and study groups and people who know a whole lot more than I do for fun. While now, but in red.
And there was a wonderful report to Congress that was put out by the cops witches community oriented police services, say sent this like sixty page report to Congress March, of two thousand nineteen and described in detail. You know all the things that we should be doing to pay attention to office or wellness, one of which was. We seem to think that some regular check ups are probably help, but the problem is no one's doing them and we have literally zero research on you know what what are they helpful? Can they prevent this, and I believe they are so my you know my next big thing is to go and exploring and and do that research so that we can show hate. This does help we can. We can, if were touching, base and we're getting people, and then we can catch the problems as they develop and before they become a major problem where someone's interacting with the community and they go awry into something awful. Let's take
care of them along the way and catch the problems before they before they become behaviors that are problematic. There seems to be a lot of discussion now about police brutality. But there is not a lot of discussion about the psychological troubles. Ended there really the difficult path of being a police officer yeah and appreciation for the people that have to do that job. All this de funding, the police Talk scared, the shit out of me, because I see what's going on right now in New York City and its goddamn shooting gallery. It's crazy and the reason. Why is because the police officers have no trust in the mare they want to quit? They dont filleted? any respect they feel like they. They evolve lumped in with this one murderous caught from Minneapolis now they're all bad cops and there's a licence to call them bad cops screen. Tat
but things out them when they ve done nothing wrong with their did just there to protect and serve a lot of them are good people, the vast, mature ready. So when you seen as giant uptake and murders in see city in China taken shootings and then you, still have that dipshit of a mayor calling for the de of the police, like my god, like what I know so much of the things they say or just political, because they just want to appeal to their base and there's so many people out there that have this. Very narrow minded perspective. They just have blinders on in their ideas like race just as social justice defined, the police isn't like there's mantra that they have to say with no depth to it. They don't understand the consequences of saying such a thing or implementing such a thing. Now we're seeing a call for police action because There's a lot of people, these a lot of community groups, a lot of people that are community leaders that are, in communities that are just experienced unprecedented
violence and crime, and now they're saying we gotta do something about this so they're trying to reinstate some of these policies that they had pulled before? I'm hoping that, through this what we talked about with training and with funding the police more. Instead of defending the police train better funding more? We! We obviously need police. This idea that you don't need police or up a criminal, just gonna go away, His crime gonna go away. We have a problem. We have an enormous number of people and out of the number people? There is a certain percentage of them that will visit other people. They will steal will kill them and if they don't get caught, then you develop a coup sure of crime. Then you develop a thing where you you you, you basically what's going on in Mexico, where the our tells have more power than the police, which is terrible situation, if you have that an individual locations like New York City, if all the sun
this criminal gangs, these these against develop more done power more more supportive, the community. They have more people than police officers, you ve got a giant problem area did actual peaceful citizens are the ones that are going to be in trouble and all those people that are out there protesting that think they're immune from it. Because of the one saying defined the police, hey man, they'll fuckin, rob you two they'll shoot You two are you don't understand humans and you don't understand violence, and so this year, Toby and world they're trying to push. I defend the police, we're just gonna we're gonna refund. We're to put that money into the community and everything's fine, it's not gonna, be fine, you need to on the police? More, you need to train the police better, we need more oversight and we need recognize. This is a time we're everybody's got to come together on this, and we gotta to figure out. What's wrong fix. What's wrong recognize. There are some problems, but you can't blame more cops, and you can't say d from the police cause. That's nonsense that this date is a a silly
like a version of life that doesn't it's not real. You need good cops better. Jobs. Are you saying we need to get rid of bad cops? Yes, definitely thing everybody agrees with. How do you do that? That's where the question starts and training the more like this idea that you can't Ben twenty percent of time training of love, you did spend twenty percent. We're so the time train them and there was a lot less crime because of it in the interactions with with people were much better would not just be overall but is at an impossible task. I mean we're home. Money goes into the police department. You tell me, you can't add twenty percent to that and train the more. I bet you can bet you could find it financially beneficial. Oh, I would see overall, if you could reduce crime that way and reduce the animosity between citizens and the police. Would that be for everybody, it would- and I
agree. I agree with with you I mean on the DE funding. Thank you know. I think, and you ve had other people say this too, and you know this- I'm not saying anything. My amazing here that, like it means different things to different people, and I wholeheartedly agree the folks who think defending means like just get rid of em like that that that silly, what's your play and be what what do you know you hold meetings? They really mean I dont you. I dont understand what happens next and I haven't heard anybody articulate so then, what an egg areas November that why no one has a then what those ardor the the emails I get that took the headlines. I saw one yesterday or the day before that in Minneapolis now there are groups of citizens banding together armed citizens, banding together to patrol the streets for crime. I thought, oh, my God, recyclers! Oh boy so it can happen going through community members, shooting people and then their charge it it's the charge of murder. It's a horse. I addressed a horrific thought, and I can't quite imagine like that was so I
please. We understand the that the anger and the frustration you're right. We don't need bad cops, there's nothing worse than the other person. You call to protect you, and to help you, when you're in an emergency, doing the wrong thing and doing harm. You know that we don't need or want that and I wholeheartedly agree- that more training and and the right to of training and end spending that time, because I also think that the training gives you access to see where people are and they are on a good path. If they are that problematic person, you saw a term care all true, if you doubt them during this truth or worse still, if we're seeing them on a regular basis and pulling out and giving them the tools that they need and then absolutely. I think that is an exceptional thing to do. That was part of what your Europe costs with Georgia me away with you know the way talked about you know in the
Their thing that that sort of has gotten lost is this whole idea of you know the interaction with the community with community oriented policing. You know in its it it's exactly at Java was talking about when he was talking about being overseas and appear somewhat patria. In the order of you know, you're not just roll up in your tank and crews through you stop and you talk, and you humanised yourself and you engage with these. You know with the foe, ex here and you. Let them know that you're you're here to protect and to serve and you connect with them and then helps both the community citizens and the soldiers. That's the same thing that we're wanting here at home in this country that that we're police are supposed to be your supporters in your resources in and the people that you trust and are connected to, and that is why it community oriented policing is it's not a new idea room it's been around for decades, but we somehow still don't have that going on
it still. While what seems like everything in society is now, it's us versus them. The police versus the community instead of we are a community together, and we need to work with each other to denote too, to keep this place safe and understand what the biggest problems are worded. The citizens concerns, and it is an easy to do. It's not an easy thing to do. But it works you I go. There were a tactical range where they teach you, how to shoot hand guns and the guy teaches mate was tell me you would be stunned at how inapt somebody's either come here. He goes. They literally barely know how to shoot a gun, and I wouldn't believe them except I've. Seen so many cops, it herself fat and so sloppy, and, unlike how are you going to defend yourself like the idea of you serving a protecting. I do too
A throws you underground the ground, not even get up like. How does that happen? How do they know have standards for like being able to shoot a gun in knowing how to handle it properly being accurate being consists, with your training and also physical fitness. Like that's, the job of a police officer is dealing occasionally with violent criminals when you have no capacity to do then yourself, How are you able to help people only help like if you're, in a situation where there something turns physical, if you have no ability to defend yourself easily other than firearms a situation that could be de escalate, it turns into a violent encounter because you have to shoot someone. So a couple things come to mind. So you know imagine that. Police officers, do get annual firearms training they do get. It have to pass in most places an annual physical fitness test.
And you're saying. You know your possible you're, seeing people who are out of shape and overweight and physically, not in great condition in your seeing people who can't shoot well, but yet those our regular there already or firearms trainings annual firearms trainings and every other physical fitness Us Gama, though state tap a minimum in initial training and again it there's so much variety that I'm sure not everywhere. But most departments have annual. You know service that Youtube in service training. You gotta go through and do, and so, if we are still seeing man people who are out of shape, yet they pass the physical fitness testing, who can't shoot, butterfat imagine their mental health. Madame. What that looks like- and there is no annual mental health training mental health check in, and I promise you that the job roads that over time so jollier. If, if the things we can actually see that the shooting is on par in the physical health, is an unfair, the one we can't see what's going on, the insight. Imagine how messy that might be here and there's nothing. We have no. Overall,
and no regular chickens there. So that's that's one thing that sort of stands out like, but but imagine that you You know, the other thing is fire this training. Obviously it a super important if you're going to carry weapons to be able to use it and to use it well, but also not something you're, going to encounter on a regular basis on the job there. Officers who go through their entire career without ever pulling a weapon will that's great right. That is great, and when you do it, it should be few and far between, because there are other other way, to manage situations there are, you know, that's leader forests, and then we ve got a variety of of you. No non lethal force, whether something hand up you, know physical hand on me now banned. And kind of thing, or whether it's a taser or baton or whatever else they may be using her having on there. You know their tool belt so there there are other options there. So hopefully you know that
the continuum is- is set from verbal de escalation communication when that doesn't work and it still a danger than you. You know there are certain criteria and an obviously officers are taught their continuum of force and what needs to be necessary to move up that level with deadly force in our lethal force being the highest, so it so rare that to me there's so much else that comes before that that, if for doing a good job, that almost is never an issue, because these other tools work better. Women, what's almost govern issue being having agenda web having to shoot someone having to get to where you're breaking a strap and your pulling your weapon in your firing at someone that should not mean that is a that is the last last last. It doesn't happen daily basis, was not entirely dependent upon what, where you're out and what what kind of situation we all agree.
The country, there are situations where cops, have to pull their guns and have to use there are but they're, not as couldn't but their happening every day, probably somewhere every day, but not every day and every officers right. But if it's you, If it's? U yours officer, you gotta be ready. Yes, like this idea that that's not important it's, it should be of critical importance, not that it's not important, but that there are so many other things that need you also be in place, because if these other skills are in place run, if you are a master, you know liked convertible Judo, hey you can. If you can t someone down if you are a master at the escalation. You're, never gonna need these other tools, maybe not never no, you are very rarely gonna need. Any of you know that less than lethal force of Elise lethal force because lower managing situations- if you suck at these, you need these alot are sewers right. So so for me, because if you don't deal with communication and do what you know d,
escalation and how to talk, someone down how to talk to an individual with a mental illness, how to talk to somebody who's a victim or has been traumatized, how to talk to somebody who's may be on drugs and able to you know how do we manage those situations with verbal with interactions with communication, so that we don't have to go up the chain of command of Vienna? of levels of force. That seems to me to be an incredible amount of training that must be necessary, and it also has to be constant, consistent. Absolutely and that's why and when you and job we're talking about the training and how many more I'm like you hung, we get an early and yet how much money do they have to do in terms of him, And combat I dont know sure how much and again, in short, depends on what academy they go through. Some economies are four months summer. Six, some months longer you know in and make up depends on who's running that academy, as do like that, the breakdown of you know how much
in the classroom, how much as physical, how much as tactical. So I'm not sure what the numbers are beyond that Andrew young presidential tone and he heard former prisoners from whom he added So my dear said, every person who is in the police force should be a purple about in or higher, and I That is a really good idea. Gazette at that level, you have a real understanding of how to defend yourself and how to control bodies. I saw a video on both seen quite a few of them, but one more pathetic videos of ever see was to people trying to hide one guy down completely ineptly. The guy gets up runs its into his car and shoots both of them and then takes off. Am. I Jesus Christ went into his car, got a gun like take. They had no control over this guy to people like that should never take place. And it s wasn't some freak of nature. Either. Wasn't like they're trying to hold down Herschel Walker for some superfluous now so regular guy, just they sucked, and it was it.
Terrible to watch them without being a party, The challenge with with officers also is that here we think of it is this. You know, go Oh go doo doo, doo, adrenaline, junkie, job which there are spurts of that. But you know a lot of that. Twelve hour shift is sitting in weight. Or patrolling, depending on what you're gonna, what you're, where you are and where you're patrolling it's it's tedious, tedious, tedious and then its intense or difficult. Or a stress fallen, so you know it's levantin to be trained to recognize it. That's what's gonna happen to you and to be psychologically prepared that this is. This is of what it is tat. I remember the first time I went on a ride along with someone and thinking as feel so much different. Now I thought it would feel like first of all, everybody stares at you and is looking at you in your you're like I just standing out no battery go cause you're in your in the girl I got car. Where did you go? Oh I've been
and many times in my first from his decades ago, in North Carolina had a police officer for roommate who took me up the very first time and my first right along it was night time just tedious, boring couple of mere low level. Arrests just then the way people respond and react really just felt so much different than I bought. And then I went out again awhile later and saw ed body and had all sorts of weird experiences on that one. Just that the difference from shift to shift to the adrenaline excitement or something scarier overwhelming happens, and then you know just tedious. Monotonous shift in? That's all so much unpredictability and uncontrolled ability that that you do sort of need to be alert and on and ready at and part of that what does a number on and officers mental health
I would imagine also the current state of the way people are treating pass. Officers is gonna, be devasted so much has changed in just a few short months. We went from just most, people have respect for the police to its. It seems like it's in fashion to to talk shit about cops in it, it comes and goes right. You see about espouses ever gotten they had now and when I you know, when you talk to folks and its motion, why? To which accounts for yeah it's not isolate, it's not knowledge in a late arrival or many of us it is, it has really spread. Who'd have ever thought that that one incident would it would ignite this powder keg. The way did because every other incident that we ve had in the past, like the Roddy King Incident, that just started riots in LOS Angeles, it didn't do anything gain New York, but this one is across the world. Yet ministers, there's riots in London,
how many people are going to place in France? Because of this- and I know I mean who knows- I have no idea what it was about this other than it was just so outrageously awful is that it's so fiercely awful? What happened and to watch that? Yet we was the Mineo, we all got a first hand. Look something heavy, as also scary. So I think the video. I mean you literally saw a man lose his life and that was traumatized for anybody who saw it I'm sure the pandemic and everyone being shut down and restless, and all that you know effects of that mentally and psychologically on all of us. You know just sort of the unrest of that combine with the horror of why
What happened is also the Dogma Trot Georgia right, nobody Bree with little what had happened to Joseph before them, and then this was like the one hundred was just enough, and I mean I I agree. I I've found it, especially in those early weeks very stressful, to be somebody who really loves and supports law enforcement. My whole my whole goal in life is to take care of and and and protect cops and to help them be good and do a good job. That's that's my passion, that's what I want to do, but I am also very opposed to racism I want to be as antiracist as I can be to India stand on both sides and to say, can I be both of these things and and a work there and say what ya? I really can, because that's not what we want cops to be do they are mainly in IRAN and find a way to not do the US versus them and it and to meet both good cops anti racism. Those those are things that can go together
yeah, I mean I think everyone can agree that racism is awful regime by police is awful, yet it it's cycle cycle paths. That scare me. Yes just racist, it's like that guy that shot that a man in the hotel in Phoenix story it made them? May the guy crawl guys we're fallen off and he kept like reaching bag said, don't reach and then he shot him. There was a cop. It did that out. Remember story, well the guy huh toy gone and someone report them. They were drinking, they were in a hotel room what team shows up, they tell this guy. This guide tells us guy to get on the ground. The guy it's on the ground is crying saying please I didn't do anything and then he said crawl towards giving these really fucked up instructions I crawled towards me, the guy crawling in his pants or phone down acres. Reach backs and tries to pick up his pants the guy screaming item, I will fuckin shoe you and it's really clear: there's nothing in pants
just reaching back. His pants are falling down, and so you see says again crawl towards me and the guy's pants or falling down. He reaches back in the cop, just lights amount, while he's on face down threat, no weapon! No, nothing! I mean it's the grossest once you ve ever seen, and it's a white guy doing into another white guy, Racism is awful, but psychopaths are what the problem is. Not just racism cycle paths that are racist or mean. I think that guy, had problems that Derek over didn't, have problems with white. But like he had a long history of abuse, there was certainly went surprise me there was more than there was multiple incidents, and this is what scary to me like? How does a guy stay in the police force when there's multiple incidents of him abusing people like at what public debate? just said, but we never thought it was going to kill somebody. We just daddy was rough, but he was a good cause.
Otherwise, like is that how they're? Looking at it like, how does a guy like that get to a place where when you go back and look at, is its complaints- and this This guy was one of the reasons why Amy Claw Bashar was kind of tanked as being a vice presidential possibility, because she was in control back when this guy was doing this and they connect they. So I will. They will connect it to her right here. Members here- yeah, I know that, obviously I don't work and many are was, I don't know, is gone on their apartment, but just from the things, I've, read and heard you know media which are always take with a green assault. Could you never know what you're getting as that he'd had multiple prior incidents, multiple per shootings? I think one must first
oh yeah. So these are you know these are red flags and markers now. Does that mean? He was definitely take this prior to this incident. If we didn't know what had happened here and if I just saw that heat had prior complaints and prior shootings that that may or may not be enough for me to say, hey what's goin on and that depends on what were the complaints in a citizen complaints happen all the time right. So just seeing that someone's had a complaint, you know you could give someone a parking ticket and they think you're an asshole, and so they carbon complain. They treated me unfairly. When you look back at you know, if there's body can, footage or whatever, and it's a perfectly normal stop at that person just pissed off cause, they gonna take it. You know I mean so a complaint can be something very substantial and very real and problematic, or it could be one of these that Whence come citizens complaints come all a time. How do you feel about that other crops that run the scene that were there with him. I I can't understand how one wouldn't intervene and say: ok, that's that's enough. Let's back,
off now was headed senior officer. I dont know I sounded like no, they said to other guys, were pretty new on the job the other one. The one that you can see kind of standing in front had also been on the on the force for a while, but I don't I don't know which of the two had been on longer. Do the work culture is tease me the way the culture is, the the two that were new if they saw him? Do that? It's not really is it is a thing that they can say if you're a new guy, you been on the job for a couple months and years ago spin on the job for twenty years, and you see I'm doing something is it your place? the standards your places a human being right, but how does that Culture were. It is a pair of military environment where, if someone is your superior, it is very hard to speak out against that person. So that is, that is definitely a problem and something that you know to act out an end and the culture
in the department would be yeah that somebody who either as a higher rank than you or who's, been on longer. You know, especially their brand new and that's like their field, training officer, you're, you're, not going to step in and tell them not to do That's gonna have is not the way it's done. Yeah! That's that's that paramilitary model. So if you are shared out, a lock in your superior officer is a psychopath. Raymond he's doing something like that yeah if he does, kill that person and there's no complaint. What recourse is that person have if they go to the person who is, are the other officer, the other officer officers, derelict what recourse is that officer have if you're seeing someone abuse someone in your new on the job? Can you, internal affairs like- and if you do this
my attached to their correct. They eat. There are ways to report fellow officers, yes, but would most people do that? It's a tough caught, yes, it happens and some people do the right thing, but the others a cost. That comes with that. I think we should resign yeah yeah one at one of the interesting reforms that lots of folks are talking about in some cities or passing. Is this requirement for other officers to say something in this is an interesting one. There's a lot of these piecemeal reforms. That kind of make me go like. Ok, it's fine, but I dont know that's gonna make much change. This one makes me and think- and I wonder if maybe it will- maybe it will
I dont know I I I see it could go both ways where it could be something it's helpful if there's a safe mechanism for people to report. But you know in that situation. You know thinking about the that George Floyd situation. You know if those, if two of those officers had said hey, you need to back off and again still, if their inferior to him. You know one of the odd culture yeah. What are the odds? It he's not gonna tell them royal screw. You like superior. You you back often, and then body else, also on the force and the re comes, and then there are the snatch in there that you known the weasel and whatever else, and so it it's really these the idea, I think, great one. Let's put that's put this law in place that you have two to two imported or to intervene. If you see something, but I just wonder
how that all look as it plays out and when you can't have a divide among people that he after work that closely together and you have to rely on the tat you gonna have rack and body cameras really are only good once something's happening haven't review the body camera right. It's not like someone's reviewing the body camera every dango. Might your kind of account like the way it treats those people you fucking asshole right? Why are you so rude? Why so mean like? This is not good as a police officer. Yet the only thought that folks had especially embody camps were first becoming the thing and in tons of departments. You know we're starting to use them. Was people thought that kind of you know big brothers watching feeling you you know. If we we're on camera. We're gonna be on our best behaviour end, and that word, and it always do the right and I'm sure there is some well there's one element that but one way to do that. Lets you stream live all cameras you have,
that's part of the problem and police departments when they start to implement body? Comforted footage make these big decisions on where to restore that data, how long do we keep at what we are? What all these new to massive decisions so will flourish. You too So let me listen! People flooding Youtube. Anyway, I mean it's sounds crazy. But if you did do that there be very little shenanigans mean that we can, have gone already, because cellphones you know you, don't I mean now mean alone every cell phone and it's just one one arbitrator and three cops. You don't have anything yet you know if everyone was streaming all the time it would be, if we really hard to get away with a lot of stuff, the people get away with, it will be one of the things I ve heard. People talk about with body camphor it just having a sort of that Oversight Committee too, to regular review footage in fact
There will be reviewing eight hours a day, all the above all the officers on the inner. It's it's such a monument alternatives. Do the people around put it on Youtube. Some scary Puts on scary by just this, the chaos and and mayhem that would ensue from that. Well, but also accountability. Chernobyl things would ensue from Let's with sought look. Here's another example made me sick as nothing do with racism when they were an was it upstate New York, where are they push that old man down and he fell and bows his head off the ground and was on, consciousness. I think still in trouble, hissing yeah, he still her. I mean accuse really old guy and he fell and and slammed as head of the ground, so they charge you officer for doing that and in the rest, the officers they quit. Clearly, you shouldn't pushing old man like that,
early on that guy falls and hit his head. You gotta look out given medical attention, the guy was unconscious bleeding from the back of his head and he really old, but give you that old and you fall down like that. He easily could have died and you ve got these cops that just walked away while these guys down like that, what the guy say that was so bad that they had a push him down. I mean he's some sort of like radical, left wing activism has been that way as whole life, but he didn't touch it. But he didn't. You didn't ask anyone like, why did they do that to him and why? but those other cops why they retire while they quit. Because of this same, camaraderie, and I understand that you need that if you go to war together, you have two. You have to stay together. You have to stick up for each other. You you're part of a team. I understand that, but you can't do that in the whole world saga.
What else can I say that you can do that? It's you know I mean I can't I wasn't there are having talk to those officers. I don't you know, I don't know what happened before and are not happen after I not be. No, I see is again these little snippets that come on the news media- and you just saw your diary push of frail yelled loyalty is something that's that's awful, but when you ve got these, you know these police in their lined up in their marching like why? What what's going on and in how could that have happened? And why, like I don't know, I don't have an explanation for that one. I would like to know I'd like to talk to the people like see what was, happening to why it was in that you know those. I cannot believe that the parliament all Poland's videos pile up all these the cops abuse people pile up, you know it's just it's so on fortunately, every time a cop fox up every other Cobb, has to deal with the pain of that have to deal with the stigma and they have to deal. With the anger and neither the backlash its definite
Maybe one of the hardest aspects of the job is that you know your given an immense amount of power. The alarm you know that badge and that gun just are are tremendous in terms of what they gave you liberty to do and like all here, I see, no power power can corrupt nothing crops more than money and power right, we're still him money, but they ve got the power and end they. You know it is so easy to let you know to two to go the lot the wrong way and so and in like a son in, I dont think that these that the folks at you see in these videos started out as bad people were. I dont think they said. I mean I spent so many days of my life evaluating these folks who want to go into this very noble profession, and the majority of them are just really creek people. Occasionally you get an idiot that comes through and usually they fail, because they don't belong more,
and that percent. No thank you, my fires, that more idiots we're gonna get it now, because less people wanted to police. Well, it's gonna be even worse doubly scaring. Now that defending thing obviously is is a huge issue. Like what's gonna happen, agencies are not going to be able to higher costs. The monies being taken away. Routes are put out things well so totally when they say we're. Gonna die from the police. All the progressive people do yes, I wanna be unsafe. Yes, but that the combination of the d funding, as well as the tanking economy. You know some of the departments and I work for you- know there- that the money that comes into that city year, that town to support that I meant you know that were as all financial crisis, it's gonna from the pandemic, your site, I've, a few of the agencies that I worked for, like yeah, we'll anticipate hiring, and maybe the next two to three years so in that
partly you know it, and in some it's not a d funding thing is to adjust its the financial crisis from the pandemic more. You know that there's just there's things that are used across the board tat, they can also use that as a political ploy like say we're, defining the police as well, but really to cutting education, their cutting right, For those who were all suffering right now is a financial crisis. It's going on for discovered, crap bet in addition, then you ve got that plus the covert staff, and I mean you ve got departments who are going to be really strapped, for you know four for hot it in able to hire and then, like you said, who wants to go into this job now. In fact, when I do, these are still doing some evaluations right now and in the question that I star Office, what why do you want to do the work? the current climate. You know, what's what what makes you wanna be at all?
sir, just to hear what their thoughts are. You know and independent sort of get get into their mind a little bit on on what is it that makes you want to do this because really you gotta, be he. You gotta, be second guessing your options here at this point cause it's not an easy time be a cop. What? If, if I gave you a magic wand and or the price and it did in the present said, look Nancy. We got a real problem. We I want you to help and what you well, what you structure the programme for the entire country for the police officers, what do you think should be done across no option? I love that you ask that question in in therapy world their best. We ask that question for our clients all the time we caught. The miracle question therefore check you just dead right there and you do it to a lot of your guests. I, like it only the total therapist trick that we deal with long out of your life. If things could be perfect, what would it look like now? Look at you so yeah
If I had almost you, are you don't even know? If I could just take over and make other changes. Honestly, I would take the advice of the amazing people who have done a ton of work already And you know about five years ago, there was a task force put together on. You know, recommendations for what should twenty first century policing look like, and They lay out in a you know like two hundred and seventy page document. What policing should look like, and this really amazingly brilliant group of people came up with some excellent advice and it talks about racism and it talks about technology and it talks about community oriented policing. It about wellness and all the things that I see that our missing it's been sitting there for five years, not to say that nothing has happened since then, but we certainly have an enacted. What that task force put together.
In what they recommended back. Then you know take that in all the their great work, you know change and reform break. Now you see it happening left and right all over the place right. It's it's! It's piecemeal, its haphazard, its its political at slut, satisfying the unhappy ex right now, and I agree that people are demanding change and they need action. They want to see it right now I get that its satisfying to say yes, there's change, but I am also freely currents learned about whether some of these random, haphazard changes are going to make any different for these real real problems. But yet we ve had these brilliant groups that have laid out what we need to do. That report to Congress, from back in March of two thousand nine on Officer Wellness. What I would do If I got the magic wand and all the money, as I will again psychologist lens for me, is I would down with that, and there were twenty two recommendations in that report, and I would work my way through making these recommendation,
and become mandates across the board, and this is a big battleship it's gonna, take a long time to turn, absolutely show you. These are easy products. If they were, we would fix some right. We were, we would, even with an hour later logic, absolutely they are not easy. They are not simple. You know, so many of these societal problems are so important and are so profound, but, like I always say here, my husband now argue politics We see things from other sides of the fence and I'll be like you know, and which ones the liberal the do gooder solved her dad he's more conservative he's a business guy, I'm the psychologists, it'll make sense, and me no us by you know, will debate and go back and forth, and we mad at each other, in an oil and in it but heads and keeping some an idiot, I think, he's an idiot. We roll her eyes and then you know I stop and think and reflect on it and think you know. If these problems were simple with all the brilliant people in the world, we would have solved them already
in it, we would have solved, and we have to be able to see things from the perspective of others while Will it get mad when he sees things differently from me? It also makes me stop and think, because you know in this case here. Someone who I love who sang things that maybe I don't love and I have to stop and think. Maybe there's something to this. You know I could just be your horrible cause, you you see these things and you think I'm horrible cause. I see things this way, but in what we both have a perspective and they probably both have value. Would you just does twitter, but yeah I mean there's, but there's a lot of very good people that a conservative their deep globally and is a lot of very people that are liberal, AMP thought it, Sir, a lot of problems in the world and there's not there's not clear, cut solution. And the problem law enforcement to me is, of course, The problem of education in that their not a lot of money in it. But it's an incredibly important part of the world and credibly imports
part of our society, but yet the people that do it don't get paid, well You know me, some police officers can make a really good living if they do a lot of overtime right. That is true, but also you gotta think about what kind of, or what are you talking about you talking about someone literally giving up eighty hours a week of their life and when we come to the money officer Wellness that there are one of the things I recommend against is over time. I think you're worried about it. It's very tempting for an annual the more like. I say that the best description of what happens mentally how how the mental state of an officer kind of can get off track over time was written in a book. It's it's older. Now I think it was early. Two thousands a guy named
having go. Martin wrote a book called emotional survive all for law enforcement officers and their families, but that's probing on exactly rate, but that's close best book. I've ever read on police mental Health and he describes in such an easily digestible way what what happens with police officers in their mental state, ready tax about your normal humans. We cannot. We we live between the lines like this is a normal state of alertness and functioning. So we all our kind of in here when you're on the job and of as a police officer you ve gotta, live in this state of hyper violent psych you're on your alert you're looking around your you're you're, always ready and in a sort of energized a little bit of adrenalin flowing, and so they have to live up there and that's that's! Our bodies are meant to do that for short term. You know, that's our nervous system, parasympathetic nervous system. Kick them. Work were up we're alert and you stay up there and then, when they come up,
job it dips down, but instead of going back into that, like middle zone, the normal zone, where most of us are functioning in a kind of going about normal level of energy, they deep down below. His once you ve been on that high Canada that that rush, while you been on the job your body needs to recover, so goes down into this low state, and while it's down there, you know you again. This is your you're nervous. I'm kicking back in your recovering you're out of that beast mode and you're in that you don't feel great you're tired, you kind of want to be alone. You want to isolate a detached, you know a tent and a lot of kind go in retreat when they get home and they need that that go to my cave time. Your body can recover from this, so the cycle for copses at their up. And then when they come home, they go down and it usually takes a body eighteen to twenty four hours to get back into the normal zone great, so it
if we did that one day and then we dip down to recover, we come back, but what happens within twenty four hours? Will you go back to work again? So what happens for cops? Is there up, then they're low then their way up the low and that's not the way our bodies were made to function you're in this state of hyper vigilance for so long, it starts to wear on you. It where's anew physically it, whereas on mentally it, whereas a new, emotionally and and and you'd never get that recovery time to get back to normal state, so they constantly or in this lie shorter and shorter, few yacht tents and alert, and it makes you exhorted just where's on you over time. The other thing it does that cops are notorious for having kind of trouble functioning at home if they're working too much in their so into it that on ten state feels good you're energized your alert, your active and then, when you deep down, you don't feel good. So they start associating home with negative feelings and work with positive feelings. Omar
so then what do they do? They crave work more so they go take overtime shifts and they hang out with other police officers and they start to kind of become their police self and they lose their personal self, and so this is a love. Go Martin spoke for this and I have recommended to any officer I have come across if they haven't read it, because it really beautifully explains this cycle and kind of what it does. For time, and he also goes on to recommend: will we don't how do you and but what the lungs long and short of it at the end? If you stay in that, and you lose too much of your personal south, you become that burned out, her angry gonna snap and you know, and do some make a bad decision kind of place. So how Do you resolve that? You know you you ve got to protect your personal south. You ve gotta, keep from getting hard and better and becoming too much of that police self. And so one of the things is you protect your off time and you use it. You
gauge you, you do the things you love, you don't give up your Hobbes you. If you have a family and kids, you do things with your children. You to get back into the real world see remember that the real world is out there. Because if you are only in that state, where all your seeing as the things that cop sea, which has negative it and and strong, and horror and trauma and angry people, and in hurt people in victimized people, if that's all you're, seeing and you're spending all your life in that state. You forget what happens on the outside and it think it's really hard to understand from the outside looking in and if it I've told millions of people this stuff Sorry that I got a little bit little bit of a taste of it. From my years when I was before, I went into the academic route and I was working in the prisons and forensic hospitals and so here's maximum security
letting you know being a young small female in a maximum security setting, I'm surrounded by offenders who are mentally ill. It's not an easy gig and you got a really kind of got to be in that state of hyper vigilance, and so, after a few years of that, I didn't notice, it was having any effect on me until I was working in a federal prison at the time and one of my college roommates came to visit me. Hannah, We were hanging out and have a drink or whatever and joking and- and after a while, she was like finance, Logistic, you're, different willing, what're, you talkin about I'm not different and a white like no, I'm not she's, like you're, really hard you're a model that scared of you on our low. What do you mean finches, like your hard, like you know, and I thought now like she's just an end when she said that it really kind of struck me and like two weeks after
for that I went to visit my sister and at the time she had young kids and I remember, sitting outside watching somebody playing all game, and and looking at all these families? And I remember having the thought like doing don't. Why are they also happy? Don't they know of all that's going on till they know about all the horrible people in the workplace scared to be. I thought, oh, my god. She was right like I've. My brain has started to go into a place where, because every day I had a steel up, get tough, be ready for anything have eyes in the back of my head, because I was working in a really dangerous setting at that time, and I had to protect myself and what I flash Reno after. I stopped working in the prisons and I softened back up and came back to like a normal state of functioning, where I can turn it on or off depending on. If I need to put at risk
he was telling me to see how much you're, just your your daily persona, can shift when that's your dated a functioning so that go Martin stuff with them. You know the waves and the hyper vigilance in the record We and the more people start to become their police self more and more and lose their personal self. It's a really important thing for us first to be aware of and to track and monitor if they want to stay balanced. The best of the cops that I know, and I know a lot of really good ones, but I think of a few that stand out, who I just simply adore as humans and are really wonderful officers. They
have that balance really down when they're on their on, but then, when they're off their doing stuff with their families, their coach in their kids, bald teams there you know active physically their fair there mentally huh. You know sharp they. They they have a real personal life that they hang onto that balances out what they see and the negativity that comes out them constantly in there in their day job as just something that most of us have to deal with in our daily lives, and it's a really big deal and nuts. You know those mental health checks that I push so hard for and that I really want to get going, enter into study and figure out. How can we do these well can check in on that stuff into help? Stop that psycho help to get paid go into a healthier place so that they don't become better and jaded an angry and more likely to do to me to be the bad apple. As we like to say, you have a description of the cycle so important, for example, to recognise the young woman. You know
even though some human beings might be better managing things, it's like there's, there's an actual physical thing. That's going on there and when I, when I meet with cops after an incident, you know if they're coming in that's the first place. I go because it feels so comfort. To know this, isn't me being weak or me losing it. This is something busy, a logical, that's going on. No, don't you think that allow these crops are tempted to do overtime just because the money so great? Absolutely, no guess that's good the purpose of the job. That's one things had law that they can. I mean hundreds of them thousands of dollars a year. They could literally double their pay and its in and it's great to have that option, but again, at what cost there to have a balance in some over time is fine, but That's all you're doing and if you're doing it, this is probably really important key if you're doing it to avoid being at home because being on the job is the only place you
you weren't functional and alive and good tat where the danger sets and if you do because you know you're you're trying to make extra money to get that. You know to take your family on a trip summer, vacation or whatever, absolutely like. Do it get that extra money here, that's great, but if you're doing it because of the only place you feel alive and on an alert, Moby rubble yeah. You know you might be getting a little bit off and that's gonna leave probably to a place. It's not great similar, bring about this again view on this matter. Want not plan the President says Nancy take over what do you do my personal view, do I'm gonna pull all of those things all the work? That is our been done, and I'm gonna implement, reform a Mattel all those angry political folks that are fighting with each other to hush, to stop fighting that we ve got really smart people. Party, given it and I'm gonna put in place
nationwide procedures for how we hire how we make decisions, particularly of course, psyche. Vowels, I'm an implement nationwide requirements for screening and mental health and wellbeing. We're gonna work, I'm gonna get Jacko onboard next to me to develop training programmes right and I'm on my team up with him and we're going to recreate the world of training together.
And and we're gonna. Do you know we do that more training, all the stuff that we need and get people who are actually healthy, well, physically fit as well as emotionally, immensely healthy and and well equipped to do their job and not just on the technical side, but on a communication side de escalation, communication Hata talk to people who are victims, what to do all those things in a training package so that you know the academies they do a good job. I dont worry, you notes to make think that they dont, but that police academies tend to do things in the same way like that, the courts do they rely on precedent. They do It's always been done because that's what we know and that's what works and to have a a joint, a joint planning of of training where it's not just this is what we do. So this is what will keep them
but to pull in the academic peace as well to say: hey yeah, but we ve been doing all this research in there is actually about our way. So, let's implement this now and so just to really update and refresh what that academy, training and the ongoing throughout your career training looks like so reforms, training on the job, take care of our officers on end and to put in place all of these recommendations. You know these specific level recommendations on you know how do we actually get in there and take care of folks there's there's so much? That's. That we can do that, could make a big difference. There's gotta be something done to push back against this, this this idea that we have right now the weapon eyes. This idea of defending the police of the police are evil in that the police. Having money is the problem at it's. It's crazy, like there's a reason why we have the police folks,
their necessary, it's very important and too abandoned them or to treat them like anything other than members of our community and very important members of our community is so short sighted in so crazy and Dunbar. People that I don't think understand. Psychology did nothing to understand violence, aren't they we stand crime there and its again. It's it's weapon, Ized its thing that they're using now to push a political agenda to to align themselves with people. You know so that it helps get reelected. It helps them gain power with their constituents. It's so dangerous- and it's such a weird thing to hear coming out of mainstream politicians miles the we need to define the police work. You guys are core easy yeah I mean when people about defending along the lines of take some of that money and put it in two communities like that piece of it could be, if done well, better
special boy. I take it from the cops I dont know that needs naturally take from the cops but to take to really pay more attention to our communities and what their needing you know, the police over the last five decades have had to take on more and more and more jobs within the community. I mean a lot of people would say that the that key change came in like the Sixtys, when D. Institutionalization happened from the mental hospital, so it used to be if someone was mentally ill, they went to the hospital, obviously state their re. Sixties came the institutionalization all those folks, let's put them out in the community. Returned to their homes and water, but during the regular raised, let's put money into community mental health that didn't happen the way it was supposed to so the them community Mental Health never got funded properly, and then all those folks was drops anymore, I'm alright with that and I think most of the car.
I think, both to the cops are because I've spent half my career on this side of police psychology, sub training, folks, how to talk to people social workers, domestic violence in all that stuff so rate, if defending the police means money into social services and in helping these folks in a way that makes it so that the police officers don't have to do those jobs anymore. I'm all right with that, and I think most of the cops are because I've spent half my career on this side. We say college, you step training, folks how to talk to people with mental illness, so they don't stop shooting them right there certainly should be send that are out.
And you know those seas around such work. People have found amazing ways around to work on it. We ve developed what we call crisis intervention teams. You know this came out of the eighties and members that you know this sea. I t thing where we have cops and clinicians it go out together, but I don't know any clinician that wants to do that by themselves. So they defend the police and everyone says yeah. You know if it's a domestic violence call send therapists, doubters curves, while I know because I work with cops, domestic violence calls are one of the most likely to end in violence. You I'm not going there right in my might, go there if there's an armed forces with me and I'll. Try to you know to do, but Eric as a team, but you're gonna send me
in programme I talked about earlier. Cops that worked on that who decided to Nought retirement is the right thing for me right now and who have left the force because they just for like a cat. Do Thou assesses the lack of support, and in what's going on, is just too much it's not we're staying anymore, so dangerous yeah, it's it's very unsettled I mean I mean I opposed as well yet folks that I know in New York summit that training programme I talked about earlier cops that worked on that who decided to Nought retirement is the right thing for me right now and who left the force because they just were like a cat. Do this. This is the lack of support and in what's going on here too much it's not we're staying anymore, so dangerous, yeah, it's it's very settling and overwhelming an end to see how, rather than you know, trying to come in and figure out improve what we ve got? It's like it. It just doesn't make sense a thorough hands up and say: ok get rid of it.
What's the plan b or jam, it suggests a politicize perspective at its many, then everything right now, yes, every colleagues, but let us at least this politicized medication is medications. Leonards work when he said I have a friend who got covered and when you went to the doktor, the doktor tested and fire covered and said I don't know what you're political leanings are what he's like well, hydrochloric, when that tends to work really well in the early stages of disease, to keep the virus multiply and see, he recommended how hydrochloric, when ends Can you like? I don't know what your political leanings areas, like my political wings. He was one be sick, because what the fuck do? I do man don't tell me that I mean there was a recent study that was published in new article in Newsweek from an epidemiological it was. Inexact saying that we have something to treat it and because the fact
tromp recommends it becomes. This politicized medication that people are avoiding this doctor Jones bored say I dont want to take that medication cause. I hate Trump flicked online when you know what's got into a really messed or so grand early hour, that a pandemic is politicize and that whether or not is one with that physician when ask you what your political leanings are to prescribe something. That is a place that I just can't wrap my head around as to how we ve ended up here. Well, too, many of our areas are being discussed and social media form. Where the let me no one on one interaction with human beings, yet No, it's you know conniving that the other persons in actual human. When you ask that door magic wand, question mine, my you know. I give a kind of my practical answer. You know I would take these recommendations and do all of these community policing wireless. But my dream answer
My my in my fantasy world, where I'm an all powerful being, I would withdraw I do have a wonder, woman, tat costume and this I'm kind of thinking something like you know an angel, the now its darker than that Burma yeah sort of like Batman, Catwoman, and something in that the EP. I'm thinking in that that's probably more mile, even like angel in in HALO unthinkable. A halo so you're others. So my in my fantasy world, where I have all power- and I can I spend all of my existence- bringing people from opposing sides together and making them sit like we are now looking at each other ass humans into say. Let's, let us find a way to connect it to take a cop,
in community members and pulling them in the same room and say hey. Let's, let's find our common ground, let's, let's voice our sights here. Each other outlets recognise that we are often them were humans. We are people we are. We are victims of our circumstance were victims of ourselves of our histories like, but but we also can come together and and see that really when it comes down to it, we we are all human beings and we all want to do well and be well. Some people go about in different ways. Do? We have to agree on anything no, but can we at least fine that place where, where we we look for the common ground he now and in the case with the police and communities I feel like it actually is, is doable unfeasible thing. You know, one of those other things were What happens if we did that? What would happen if I went around pulling people in and and breaking down the US versus them? You know we could do it cops and communities. Republicans and Democrats in you know we are all
all humans when it comes down to an end. We had our recognise people that are opposed to that of the real problem: the people, the deposed that kind of committing a communication and the people that are essentially cemented in their polarisation that they're, just like it for a fire and they're not looking for a solution, bigger real problem. It is and theirs- and I feel like that is as a society we ve just got into a seriously scary point to which that that us versus them perspective men and I've that we are more than anything cells, weapon, eyes, tat. If I could, if I could have you're goin, that's that's where it would be. It would be too just start start healing in people together in finding common ground and an end point us back together as a society. No political speeches either record, one way to talk. You gotta home,
things here is this- is the academic nerd in me, like I was planning, I mean we ve talked about. We ve talked about a lot of a lot of things on their concerns and we didn't cover that you think is important, for people need direct moons You know the only thing like from my perspective. It comes up that I think about is you know when we are when we're looking for who who becomes a police officer, you know it. We as psychologist, but we're really important gatekeepers, because we kind of give the final seal of approval before someone get tired and there's been some really interesting discussions about what should we look for- and you know in today's culture and in
You know with all the issues gonna now you know, can we screen out bias and racism in, and I mentioned it a little bit before that you know doing so is a really challenging thing. We probably will never be able to do it to their degree that people want us to and there's been a lot of talk about implicit bias, heavy cat anybody come on and talk about that kind of stuff there. You know that that the idea that we all have these kind of subconscious or unconscious biases, sweet, they're, they're, just below aware
yes, sir they're just kind of things that we all react in in ways is some more dramatic than others, but that we we are made as humans, that we have these implicit biases, and so a lot of folks have talked about. Why can't we, you know, can we screen for implicit bias and officers in, and you know not higher the people who have that? And I thought well? No, because the problem is, we all have them, there's a an online task that millions of people have taken. It was connected with Harvard it's the implicit association test, its online anybody can go. Take it in its really fast aid can choose what groups you wanna see. If your bias towards you know different races, there's a black white one.
There is a. U can do the fat skinny one are you can see if you're you have biased towards you know different sexual orientation, so you your choose which by us you want to invest, get you take this task and basically it's saying be the whole premises. If you have these associations, you know if, if, if you have the obvious like against black folks, then what they do during the tests, if a flash up like a picture of white and black people and and positive and negative words- and you have to respond according to instructions for keystrokes and that the notion is, if you associate, you know a black if you have a negative biased towards black folks you're going to us, I see the black faces with the negative words you're gonna respond faster, although zoom so crazy. The status Menachem forever, but as a real mean well has to be really criticized. So what's funny is that, since it is, if your attesting person saw in my day,
jam but of attesting to think. Is it's not life? It's it's not an that's exactly kind of the point that I thought it was important to make. As you hear a lot about this, and people like will give that, unlike whether some major problems, first of all from testing standards, you can take it twice and Europe will they gonna score differently hears about problem jerked out system you get I go. I know they want me to do they want so that What if you were an actual racist and he took down, but you knew they were looking for racist? You pretend so that theory behind the test, as is at its supersedes that because its instant and its fast at how quickly you don't know what you're doing, and so the theory is that, because these are below the surface, that again surround trying to manipulate it. That's the idea that I am not advocating an thing it's perfect, but those who support it would say it's a big deal Oh, what scares me is that people have wanted to use that in screening and we can
because number one it's implicit, we all have these biases rule number two: just having it is not predict whether or not you whatever act on a bias ranks. It's it's. There is no. There there's, no good research that shows that having implicit vice meaning you all, you will act in a racist way right. So there's not a connection there. So that's a second problem, but what what stands up to me First, there are people who are like now doing these implicit, biased, trainings and its and they're doing it for four officers When I'm not saying this is a bad thing or knocking at their some research that supports and shows that if we want you any for if we are actively engaging in train that we can change our implicit bias like we can, once we become wherever we can do things to counter it, to change it and decrease it, and that's a great notion but they're trying really hard to em but this into the world of police work, because it's kind of one of the only things going bright,
and for me, I'm I'm not as on this bandwagon. Yet I need to see a whole lot more evidence that this works, because, while I have seen research shows its possible to change your implicit bias, I have not seen anything that directly applies to police work. And an end again. It may still be out there today we I haven't come out. Maybe I haven't come across. The studies are, I haven't, seen it yeah, there's some stuff out there, but the problem that I see that makes me most nervous about it or or reluctant to kind of jump on board here. Is that you really, it takes a lot of effort, it takes you desire and practice and effort on an end to make those kind of changes, and I just you know if you ve probably never worked for company, where you ve been required to go to a diversity training. I've been to probably a dozen at this point over there so my career, how fond of the horrible ninety percent of em are horrible. I've been too may be to that
were amazed? What's horrible about their canned there? There are a lot of em just dont, give much information. Helpful and its more. That would end its it's exactly what you would expect in a diversity. This group is this, and this group is that and and if you feel this way you're wrong, and if you do this, you are wrong and it just sort of makes you leave feeling like a horrible person, and Would you be specific work words learning gonna go. She suddenly asked you cash, I think of a good. Like specific example, it's been a while, since I've had to go to any of them in the most recent one I went, Turks was pretty fantastic. It's more like you know. Here is why here's Wyatt, what white people
are like here s why black people are like in their based on these over general as agents and stereotypes, and maybe I've just been. Maybe I have just gone to a lot of bad trainings. In my opinion, the agencies that I've worked for they haven't been put on but they just seem, I mean, can you in that they were using impolite no buyers to describe why people in black people, because it sounds bias, not further, sounds very biased but more general area generalization, and it is now time that it it can be, I think it's just they. They tried or at least a lot of the groups that have put em on try to make it very broad, so it all fit wide audience that they deliver tool, but it becomes so broad that it just feels like like this. This is, and very helpful, so it seems like something useful that they have to do to show their doing something right, and so I think a lot of those- and you know, police departments are, are being required to do diversity training. So whenever I hear too kind of cringe, just having been to some really bad ones,
and think what cash whose doing that and is it doing more harm than good diverse, the is a wonderful thing when done well, I just think how is it done? Well, you know what, think of the ones that I've been to that we're done. Well, they they explained. You know the process, sort of exploring ones, thoughts and feelings, it was not so much accusatory, but you know here are some of the things that that folks, really interested can do, and
you can't you know it, and here are some people who are doing good work and avian show different news stories of people who are you know who have who have come the long gone from you know, being somebody who may be had problems before with you know, having bias or even of a racist acts and that they ve learned some things and made changes in some kind of sea someone's progress, and they talk about theory behind how people come to identify. You know with you know their cultural background in south from here we ve all got some make up there and and what those sort of stages look like, and you know much deeper and moving far away from the just generalisations and stereo typing in that this group, and that group and much is filling all that trying to fill a seminar for justice. So silly yeah, it's hard it I mean
If somebody really does want to dig deep and explore- and you know too- to move forward in terms of exploring and becoming aware of you know it is its its deep work. It's hard work, it's something that I think you really have to want to do. Sitting in a seminar room for two hours and being talk, tat usually isn't had effective so that their hard things. It's it's a really really important topic, and I think we got a long way to go. Oh you know, and in terms of like screening and in what not like I do, the were were in a tough place. We don't have any tests that detects bias and to create one. We would we would, with its almost an impossible thing, because these are things that tend to be. You know more subtle. Unless overt and hard to.
Hard to directly measure in the way we do in psychology whittlesey on paper, but we didn't go forward now. We talked about cuz. I would imagine something like this like it's a weird opportunity. Right looks like to think like we're going to talk about how's it going to go. Is there anything that we covered that we maybe didn't cover correctly or weirder. I'm. I know what what are we talked about itself which are blurred living here and see. This might have you do this every day I got is aware, and is weird yeah. Well, I'm your own voice, New year's, totally where'd! You hear my eyesight my ear. I'm used to hearing my own voice, but more, like you know, in a classroom with students who are hiding behind laptops falling asleep, while I talk at them by taking into a microphone with Hudson and that they had set on in knowing lots of voices, are listen
Hang you know, I think the most important thing that we talked about other than the nonsense of defending the police. Is this this psychological aspect of the pressure and yet in height, stress and then the amount of downtown. That a human being required to sort of come
to mourn over those cops ruling over good thought. Yeah I feel like that is. That is one of the most important things I wanted to share and get out there. So you know if there are cops out there listening in their like. Oh well, that felt that are an air like go get that book and read it. There's so much good advice and their end and most departments. If their larger size departments, they have more resources, obviously than smaller departments. But you know, there's a loner resources out there for folks who feel like they need support. My biggest concern- I thing right now is that in this negative climate and this anti cop moment that wherein is that there are a lot of cops that were maybe under stress before you know
maybe in and not so great place for whatever reason, just the jobs wearing on them, or they ve been in a major incident in there still recovering from that and combined, not with just this notorious anti cop, and all of that that that really could push people into into a dark place. And we know you know. Police suicide has been a major problem. Tom it's gone up in the past few years, whereas the route so the rate while in terms of percentages, it's almost impossible to give a good number, because it depends on what you're what your comparison group, as I know in two thousand eighteen. I think there were recorded known about a hundred and seventy two suicides and then in two thousand nineteen. It was up to like to twenty eight and I'm scared to know
What two thousand twenty might look like, given all the other hardships others, suicide and generals, were your poison generals high. So I can only imagine and there's a little bit of argument depending on what stats you look at as to how much higher it is in the police profession compared to the community. So different young people can make start say a lot of different things. It's generally been accepted that it's a good bit higher for police as one of the men of the professions. It has the highest suicide rate. So like one of a numbers courted author, like for the general population, it's about twelve or thirteen per one hundred thousand people would commit suicide and for police officers it's more like seventeen or eighteen people out of a hundred thousand. So you know we see differences in the rates and, again all that stuff. We talked about before feeds into that tough culture, not gonna, ask for help in mourning vital
the most interesting things, interesting and frustrating for me is that of the other psychologist. I've talked to that have worked with agencies and you know like how do we get in their breakdown that barrier? How do I get them to come to me and when they need help, so that we can prevent the suicides and then how will you help them once they do come to you? So what? If I can them to me. I can at women can be all knowing and all perfect if we can get them to a psychologist. We can help them using saw a most cases for suicide, yeah, Khazars, always hope. Suicide is when you ve, just lost
open you feel like that pain is never going to hand and you don't you see no way out and we we can help with that. If we know it's there, we know what to look for. I feel very confident that when you get a good therapist and you get someone in with a good there, but we can help, but it's when they dont reach out- and that is the biggest problem with with officers, is that they will suffer in silence and they will go every other which weigh it turns into depression or they have PTSD or their using substances to cope with the difficulties. And you know all the things that compound on their that, what's the best way to get them into the office, so we can help them and a great lie. And now I'm going to blank and I'm so sorry for whoever it wasn't stealing this from, but another psychologist said what she's like you got to be like the furniture and I'm like what does that mean? She's like in the department, you got to be a coat rack or a chair like they're, so used to seeing you there is
go ahead. Are Keno hang what's hide our trans, like hey, you know, like they're, so used to seeing you and you're just like one of them. That's when they come talk to you so that that was one of the things stood out be the front, sure like, but the thing that's frustrating about. That is its hard for departments to openly
doors and let out sighters n. You know what it's it's hard to say in ok, here, I'm available for you. Ve got a contract with this company so that anybody who needs there be can go, but just to have that person present. So things that have been suggested. You know heavy one day a month have a have. Have you know that the docks in the office there and anybody's free to come in and ask questions or talk? It's open door. Talk about you talk about a friend come in and it's all confidential. It's all covered. You know it's whatever, but that their so used to seeing you that that you know over time they they will come in and be like. Oh yeah, you're, ok, you know it's doing right along with people its becoming familiar but I find in its hard to get departments to open that door and kind of it accept euros as as part of them would doesnt depend entirely Bhamo personally, the psychologist Well, yeah yeah people be really annoying around round. Are you great around you're, honest version. Thank funded. Talk too much
but I'm sure, there's a lot of psychologists that are not it's true and they probably don't want to be a police psychologist. Then cuz, you kind of got to you, got to at least an appreciation, if not an affinity for that there has always been something about it. That's fascinating! You know in net that that has drawn me and say you know what this is just. This is just a stupid, hard job, people who do at work so hard and put so much of themselves into it. I've just always had that soft spot. You do and so yeah I like just being there and being present so that that door is open it and they might just slip into it, because if we can get them in there, I feel really confident that we can help. We know what to do. That's what we do. We help people who are depressed or anxious or traumatized or considering ending their life cuz. We of all the things want to stop that one
and obviously abuse. Thank you. Thank you very much Nancy. It was really a good to talk to you and I think what you do is very important, and I think we're Bolton dream it that it is an unbelievably difficult job and very under appreciated and out there. A lot more good, cops, narrow backups. That's for sure Sure thing that you a very mild today Do you have a social media? Anything we're mainly just email? I don't believe in a pretty little or no I'll, give you social media that people can go for. Do you. What is what you have to give it to you later, but I dont Twitter Instagram my job, I stay away from it. That's why they should not be. May I can't deal with all the social media good for Anti Roma. Thank you and thank you tore sponsors. Thank you too teeter teeter. In their awesome inversion tabled. I literally use every single day to leave you pressure on my spine. It feels good. Tarzan for you and they can hook you up.
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Transcript generated on 2020-07-30.