Josh Dubin is an Innocence Project Ambassador Advisor & President of Dubin Research and Consulting, Inc. He also hosts a podcast called "Wrongful Conviction: Junk Science" available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. https://apple.co/2Q5EtHd Jason Flom is an Innocence Project Board Member, CEO of Lava Media, and host of the "Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom" podcast available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. https://apple.co/2EJxrF3 https://www.innocenceproject.org/ https://famm.org/ https://www.first72plus.org/
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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The deal go to Hell out so she dotcom Slash Rogan to get tat percent off your order and free shipping, I folks this podcast is easily one of the most intense, if not the most intense and one of the most important, if not the most important part, tasks ever done I'd several times, and I was choking back tears. Multiple occasions I guess it. Air Josh do been in jail. And Flom from the innocents project and this podcast is all about wrongful convictions, wrongful incarceration p getting released and just mass incarceration as a whole? It was I opening it was is its humbling? It's terrifying! and it's very sad, but but variant
Orton, please welcome Josh, Durban and Jason Flop, will gain experience by my body Jason. Thank you. Thanks. Venier try to keep disability this face. Gentleman is happening Thanks for having us happy to be here, my pleasure, my pleasure tat lets lets us darkness off, just tell everybody what you guys you here for and what you do. Well, we do a lot of you do a lot has were I do I shot out Andre Ward for introducing this area the absolute one by one of my best friends and am actually personal heroes, but up so Jason. I both work at the innocents project. On the other ambassador, the innocents ambassador, the innocents project in New York, and we're here. Get the word out about wrongful convictions. We have a podcast Jason is at a long, successful podcast, call wrongful conviction with Jason Flom,
on the whole of a new spin off of their called wrongful conviction. Junk science, which examines all of these disciplines of forensic size is that had been proven to be total bullshit, totally I think the name suggests that we should get to that. I don't wanna hear what those are but Jason. Could you just tell everybody what your ear originally in the record business? Yes, Thanks for bringing up I've been in Munich business, I was eighteen years old. I have signed it acts over the years as it entered business because I'm old eyes I saw cause. That's you ve, been in the exact game for a while, its last Algeria, Little miss those die vinyl desks little that they use the of the clean your we'd on, and everything else that covers. Damn you, I've enemies, bazaars, eighteenth I've signed acts over the years, everybody from stone, double pilots and skid row. Although a tory aim is in Katy Parian Kid Rock and Maurice the great event fleet and Lord and
been an amazing, ran at various times. Those chairman and CEO of Atlantic records very directly cap records, but my calling in life has been eliminating mandatory sentencing. Decriminalize drugs are basically getting people into prison. I don't belong there and reversing mass incarceration, which I believe to be the worst failed social policy disaster since slavery, and it's really just an extension of slavery. So I really upset Kate you having us here- and I can't we just the story of how we first met, but love that you doing this I just before before we even get started. This makes me excited when, when successful people go out of their way to do something like this words just good, you know you you, you just trying to right wrongs and I couldn't agree with you more and mean that the war on drugs is one of the most disgusting and confusing aspects of our enlightened culture. It just its its infuriating that we have a giant and take percentage of people that are in prison for
knit nonviolent struggle friends of offences and then a lot of them are wrongly in prison where's that Joe, do you know how many people are still annually, locked up for possession of marijuana in this country hummin almost seven hundred thousand last year. That's The lessons for possession of heart is legal people making tons of money on it. I mean I have to tell you you yeah, you know tell me I'm upon its outrageous, its it doesn't make any sense, and it's the slowest battleship to turn you know and in terms of the way our culture deals with it an handles it. We all. We all know that it doesn't kill anybody. We all know look. I'm can fuckin bottle the whisky right here. This is an illegal. How can drink this and die this in my hand, if I drank that I'd be dead right, close to it No, no! It's crazy is that when you said you and you like one successful people do this when you said that I almost fell like
the right would articulated. I never feel like I'm doing enough cause, there's so much bad shit, happening to people and you know. I remember. Reading this book called inside Rikers forget the other in Jennifer Win, but she did. This study of. In of the Population of course rate of people are Rikers Island and- such a large percentage of them were in their petty drug crimes in the recidivism, was all about people that what had drug and alcohol problems and makes up over ninety percent of the population are Rikers island. And she had a revolutionary idea right. She said what start a programme and give them vocational training and put them in jobs recidivism rate in her program called fresh start drop, almost zero point three percent and it just shows you that the though first episode of my my podcast there was a great quote and I'm a sucker
quotes from the guy that I interviewed ISA attorney it innocence, part of named Chris Fabric. When said that the justice system is inefficient eating, in killing machine for poor people of color and Rikers island is the best example of that. I didn't write that that, since you chills down your spine to hear it put that way, but that's that's exactly what it is. What's so succinct that, in my calling and Jason's calling sort of collided, we both work at the innocents project and we have sort of her. No weave urged embryos and we have been with we ve been trying to be modern day, Robin Hood. So thank you so much four? my pleasure now, these are those who want to come one of my favorite kind of pod cast upon guess where I think we can actually do some good. We can. We can get the word out about the stuff. Just how did you get started doing us out I'm through Frankly, I am it's. It's kind of crazy, serendipitous occurrence that happened in the early nineties. I was on my way to play tennis play tennis,
and I wanted a newspaper red and that in the taxi Ryan usually owed by the times, but it was sold out. I happen to pick up the post and there was story? Cuomo bed for our bid for cocaine kid so the story. Of course I read as I was fascinated by drugs and stuff and The story was about giving Stephen Lenin, who had been sent to fifty here's some light for non violent, first offence, cocaine, possession charge in New York state and just in case people think they might be. That way, miss stating that that was a non violent first offence, cocaine, possession charge in New York state fifteen to life, fifteen, the life right. So what uses this was Andy, two or three and right one though he was sentenced in the eighties, so he had been in for eight years already and I hate. The reason I was in the newspaper was because his mother- surely Lenin was her name, had been trying to get clemency from Governor Mario Cuomo Madrigal was Father, of course, and the New Yorkers out there- remember that and it got letters from the sense
judge from the warden and even Geraldine, I had written a letter on behalf of this kid. You know who had a good record in prison everything else and it had been turned down to us. Why me This paper and I've read this and my whole sense of fairness and equity and in everything, just got thrown completely out of work. As, like Ireland stand like kept reread again and going. This doesn't make any sense. Nonviolent first, fads like that could be any by the wrong place wrong time come to think, and I decided I, what to do something about it. So I only knew one criminal defence lawyer back in those days and those at any Bob Community represented Stone, Temple, pilots and skid row who both were artist that I had signed, and so I had to speed uncle. You know they were getting arrested a lot in those days and like weekly, so Bob agreed to take. Case pro bono, a long story short, even though he said it was hopeless. Six months later we ended up in a court, Roman Malone, New York, and I at their Holy, MRS Lenin's hand. The woman, I really
both to Shirley, letting it wasn't story. Her husband stand was on either side of her and they brought the kid in shackles like he was Manson or something right. Leg. Irons like this In all new to me, I'm just what the hell and down the skinny I would glasses whatever, The judge look like TED Foresight, I thought were worth screwed right, there's no way this guy's gonna, these old guy with white hair, and do beg arguments went back and forth. I knew nothing about what was going on in finally Judge says: blood below representing goes. The motion is granted me back. The gavel down and Bob comes running or an uncle bob, which has happened. He goes we won. I go one the fuck out of here we won. He's like we one leg, hoping we share that's incredible, and I was there this feeling. I've ever had and they sent the kid homemade serve nine years, but he had six to go before his parole. His purse eligible parole and and that's. I was hooked also, I didn't research just make it and bringing to a close
I found about organisation called families against mandatory minimums. Ef I m m dot org, which had just start I joined their board and then soon after that, I found out about the work of the innocence project. Then I'm I marched in and just offered my services for whatever they needed in and that's how it started I started a similar. I got hooked in a similar thing. I mean want to cut you know nanogram home tonight. So I'm internal remember the year, but it was observed by eighteen years ago. My my arm. I got a phone call and I was only twenty seven- twenty eight only forty five only makes me feel good. But I got a phone call and it's like a Josh's Berry Shack. I need your help on something you give me a call back. I thought it was my brother pranking me because when I was in college, we watch the Oj Simpson trial and we so think he was fuckin. Guy he was a sterical. He was like this
Dynamo like this, this tornado of action that you knows this like everybody was watching them right turn. Remember very shark. He's that without he's the little jewish guy, that's it how about that? Mr funk, at those O J trial was at a big moment at the OJ trial or he was undermining all of the DNA and he found the innocents project backer. Yes, he had Peter Newfound founded at me. I found that together we are almost got myself into trouble so that that's better. So I returned the call, because I thought my brother fucking with me. So I did got a call from a real famous civil rights learning Jerry left court, who said he said what the fuck is wrong with. You I refer you to bury shack in you, don't return his phone call, sir. I said- oh, my god, so I called him at the time I was you know I ledged expert, Injurie selection. Being passed around this Sir
of criminal defence lawyers, and had to lie about my age. A lot because I was twenty seven twenty eight and I was you, regarded as an expert, Injurie selection and people would see me and be like the fuck. Am I have taken vice from this young, kids or us, went and met with very shack than he had this case, where This guy was like literally brutalized he It was Chris Approach seller. Austin, Texas and he gets blockade in this murder at a pizza hut he's accused of raping and his friend is accused of, raping and murdering this employee pizza hut. He nothing to do with it in his friend. Had to do that and he was vulnerable kid and they a minute interrogation room and they beat a confession out of him
and I was so horrified. I was so perplexed at this could happen in our country and what happened to him was the through things at him. They threaten. With prison rape, they did everything that you hear about happening in an interrogation room to him until he finally just said what a lot of people which is ok, I'll, tell you what you want to hear just to get out of the room and he spent you know. Thirteen plus years in prison for a rape and murder He didn't commit, he implicated his friend his life was ruined, and I said you know I I can't do anything else with my life. If I don't committed to this was it. I was hooked while I mean I hate injustice in any form. It just have a visceral reaction to it and I hated in what is a form of bullying even more you know as a kid, my brother was a victim of terrible boy. I think we all have been at some stage, but he was really in a really affected me a lot. Maybe that inform me
I learned a lot from my dad to my dad always taught me, you know about doing the right thing and I try to do that in my life you know, but this is my way of giving back and its extremely rewarding. I think anyone that's in this work with us would say this thing that it's the feeling that you get and you able to have that impact on someone who is in a position through no fault of their own. That is them dire circumstance. Anyone can find themselves in some ajar his clients, our clients, sentenced to death Julius Jones is one will work on now, of course, James Dean, in Florida innocent on throughout its like those words should never be in the same sentence to let's, let's talk about how you know you're innocent, like with these, did these individual cases you talking about here? How are you sure But how do you know well so we can pick on any particular one and on my pocket, wrongful conviction, we ve covered a number of death penalty cases and
you know this one Julius Jones, for instance, and josh- can speak about James Daily. We also just did a pie cast on recent Josh and I did it together which I thought was really powerful. I mean in and get help my budget and reduce Jones In this case, the actual killer has confessed to not to numerous people the two. Numerous people like in longing we're president personally people prisoners who are strangers who came forward. It admitted it who talked about it. Did this corruption didn't match Julia S. The man Mumps article Yorba, though the guy was in prison, who confess to see in prison for life, disease values out get out. He did fifteen years and joyous has been on death row for twenty one and he's facing execution. Unless we are able to ok, so he confessed to people, so you haven't an account that he confessed. Two other inmates, will other inmates of said that he confessed, we have multiple, accounts and we have just had alibis. He also was a student at Oklahoma, universe, city, he had
You know yet his whole life in front of him. He was a phenomenal athlete as well and this a kid who he had befriended in high school, because the basketball coach asked him to go to the trouble of care his friend and this kid ended up. You know is really says when you're a kid you don't you know the company, you keep your not so careful and he now hung around them. The king would stay joys. How sometimes Ultimately, we know exactly what happened. There was a car jacking this this other young man went and carjacked a local, prominent member, the community White guy. I think he was Deacon, as was a business man, And you know those cases get a lot of attention: Oklahoma, white victim, killed in a car jack, black perpetrator. You know shit goes crazy and he employee, Julius to get the attention off of him. He actually hid the gun enjoys his house and then brought the cops who went in hidden in the attic.
The cops went and came out with a gun, like thirty forty five seconds later, so they just magically had like radar to figure out where it was now. The kid had told him where it was cuz, he put it there and it gets worse from there. In this particular case, Joe was at all why jury Julius had a defence lawyer who basically mounted no defence on his behalf and capital murder case and yeah Valley was at all why Jerry, but one of the jurors it is finally going blow people's minds, but one of them sent a note to the judge during jury deliberations and said that the other jurors had used the inward? and said why don't we just take this? I will say the word album. The coroner I'll shoot him in barium back there and quit wasting my time with this stupid trial or whenever paraphrasing, but he used those words, so the other Jura reported to the judge and the judge allowed de jure to continue as they are, and I mean it it's worse from their, so the whole concept fair trial in this country? Unfortunately, he's kind of a
but I didn't have a different answer to the question of gopher, The question was, how do you know their innocence, this case. It seems that you have a lot of evidence. Yeah a lot of industry, which is interesting. We have a different perspective, slightly different perspective, because I'm an attorney that represents these guys and he's adjust this advocate, and but he I'll get to know the facts of the case. But for me, three young kids and you know, lot of the crimes, are rapes and murders that these guys are accused of, which is why they get long prison sentences. Elise, the cases that ideal with for the innocents project and that I too on pro bono and give you two examples, because I take it, you know a lot of criminals, fence lawyers say: will you not supposed ever asked? The question? Is the person innocent me does matter, and I I had to cases where I demanded of myself and of the club that I really was convinced they were innocent and
What blows my mind is that science is the truth. To me good signs. Dna is the truth. So here we have a case, and- and this was one where I said well- I want to be convinced that he's innocent so says the case this guy named Clemente Gary. I tell you this story, you will say to you gotta- be making this should on. No account be true because in the store from start to finish, is is just mine. Bending he's a honduran immigrant who He is escaping Msf, thirteen in Honduras He wins like what it was like: the honduran version of the voice right, we're. Gonna American Idol, Pandora, idle, you're, honduran idle when he's young when he's in grade school, so the gang leaves them alone. Could he's kind of a novelty in these nickname shorty because he's only for foot eleven as a groan person he's in his early twenties and the violence is getting so bodies. I gotta get the fuck out of here. They kill us front
bright day day kills best run and dump him in the street in front of him. So he flew is to America and he does the who circuitous route through Mexico or he gets try to get a mexican accent. He fight the community and he swims across the Rio Grande almost drowns, and then he's taken I mean that whole story. I could spend a half hour on he's, put enough escape hatch of a car and driven around the country till he finally lands and Sanford Florida and Samper Florida is where the tray by Martin trial happen and I end up in front of the same judge presided originally over the trailer Morton trial. So Clemente is accused. He gets the same four floor on a Saturday. He begins working at a golf course on a Monday climb, trees and cutting down branches, one of the Gulf number says I like this: can work ethic you wanna come work of my restaurant Ngos and begin
working at the restaurant. He lives in trailer in the back. The trailer, no shit vagabond way he's got neighbours who are three generations of poor white trash, it's a grandmother, a mother, a daughter he's like a novelty there. Com little Mexico is not even from Mexico, we can speak English and he used to go into coke with daughter, smoke, drink and it was a girl out or do you know they would his trailer. He would go to hers. It was like Their doors were always unlocked, he's out one day parting with his friends. He does. Coke He comes home and it's like five in the morning and He wants a beer because he wants to try to come down, so he, its till. The sun comes up and he goes to knock on the door and he sees a bloody shoulder blocking the door and he goes push it open and the mother a stab the hunter
in twenty nine times, and bends down. Here no strangers seem violence. He bent down to check her and the dogs. Sparky, here's noise and he picks up and he sees a butcher life bloody butchers sitting on up on a box and he fix it up any screams and spanish is anyone here. He then, walks into the other room and he said the grandmother month over in a wheelchair, and he freaks out. He goes but to call the police me says: wait a second! I'm a legal they'll! Never believe me, can you imagine this shit on a cocaine bender? So he He leaves the trailer he runs back to his throws. The knife in the grass takes his brow We close off his closer bloody because he picked up the mother and to check policy takes office close through I'm in a garbage bag puts him on top of this trailer, the boy
ran and the daughter slipped out that night, I said the mother and the grandmother dead. The daughter slept out that night he and bear with me, because this war, this is like worth waiting for. He. The police show up couple of hours later, because the boy friend is sent by the daughter daughter says I have a weird feeling about my mother and grandmother. Can you go check on them and get my work? Clothes cause? She worked subway the sandwich shop, so the boy friend of the daughter, discovers the dead bodies. Calls nine one one, the police come they come next, A comment is trailer and say: did you hear anything last night you know anything about this. He says no he's freaked out. He then goes to a friends house and tells us friend what happened. He said. I'm just gonna go back and tell the cops would happen. This is a mess right and the friends as you dont know, America, you need to get the fuck out of town, This is not going back, I'm and tell them he goes back walks.
Their says tells him exactly what happened. They put him in handcuffs and they sit down and they say list We know how Eu Latin guys are. You wanted. Sex from them right. He said Are you out of your fucking mind. No, I had nothing to do with this p s. Long story short he gets tried convicted, and put on death row in Florida, The crime scene analyse sat on their hands and knees four days in this thinking, Florida heat and screw in blood swabs in the trailer guy Hunter fifty one blood swabs and what their swapping Four is not the victims blood, they know it's a victim's blood. This woman has been butchered a hundred and twenty nine times. Crime scene, analyse in his case testified that we were swapping for evidence of who the Perpetrator was causing a knife fight the perpetrator,
then get the next and caught, especially when you're stabbing someone that many times so what Innocence. Project got the case. They civil war. Were the result of that blood tests. You know many drops they tested not us, single drop of blood. They never still a single drop of blood because they thought that he was guilty, we had the blood tested and right in them and wooden inches of the mothers body in an at the room where the state argued the killer. Cleaned up is the daughters, blood a trail of the daughters blood go into the bathroom and then them there's blood on the outside of the daughters window. We It out just a minimal investigation into the daughter, and it turns out there. She had a history of Z, violence. She had a condition called intermittent explosive disorder where,
you would snap and just go off the rails that that's a condition, its condition, psychiatric condition. We look at her medical file when she's diagnosis intermittent express explosive disorder, they they put her in four point two restraints: that's your arms and legs and theirs. In the d doctors notes few years. Before this happened, where she says the her mother, I'm in a fucking kill you If I ever get out of here, all over kill all of you. We find out that she has confessed all over town. We had to you and I got around the witness so watch this this day. Said I killed my flock and mother, my grandmother I'll, do it to you, and I got her, the witness so watch this states still retry him. His conviction gets overturn the floors supreme, throws it out, says that
he is. Obviously there is obviously a real problem here and the state instead of saying you know what we screwed up here, they double down and it happen in all of our cases. Very rare. Not all that most of them were. The state comes up with new theory. I said well that must have been all blood from her cutting herself and then oh explanation why are mothers blood- is mixed with her blood in her bedroom. Why mothers blood is outside of her window. I demanded proof there and there was in- controversial proof so watch what happens theirs. Blood swipe on her mothers, ass her mother struggling to get out of the house and the killer grabbed at her pull their pants down in there's a forefinger blood swipe and I always thought it was weird or three fingered blood swipe. Excuse me and I always thought it was weird that there was only three fingers and blood.
Someone trying to grab at her so well. And her on the stairs, I said I got a call to take pictures of her hands because I wanted to see if there were scars on her hand and she lives upper hand and her pinky is bent down like this, and I said what a linear pinky she said certain, I cut my finger off when I was fourteen cause. I'm a quarter and severed my tenderness exactly right, I said was your hand like that on the night that your mother and grandmother were killed. She said yes and I looked at the prosecutor, and I said I mean: have you seen enough? They don't quit. I had one where they just one when they just want. When an he. I am happy to report that, after her examination and then an amazing examination by my Co Council, Morey Palmer, which exploits
bunch of other lies the ex boyfriend. The ex boy friends. Current wife came in and testified that he told her that, though daughter killed her and then she said knock out of her house that night, his house, at night, climbed out of the window and then return later in the night. They dropped charges in the middle of his retrial and I got to walk him out off of death row And in trumps America they Wouldn'T- they put an immigration hold on him and it was like out of a movie. He got walk. Out of the prison too. Immigration and there's like a mountain crowd outside of immigration on Still, I know how it happened. I got him at immigration, Bonn and walking. Out of the immigration centre that night and two Jason's point I have no other than the birth of my kids marrying my wife hitting home, run and little league never had never floated like that
fighters running world titles at you know better You'll need to restore someone's life. You hit home run a literally one We must integrate so it so hard here. The stories Maggie you just imagine yourself did get to you. Yeah, yeah yeah. A beautiful guy to Joe me ass? You need some guy comes to America and you know you meet you, you get me going to meet this guy and here's a crazy part. I was called You got a fucking crazy, tell that, shall I tell you what I had to go through to get it. I'm not pattern myself on the back watch this I've skip the one retrial the first, retrial out in front of a judge The same judge that denied him posts, conviction relief, said I don't care that the door, his blood is there that she confessed. I don't care watch this
he denied him post, conviction, relief and she he d, gets his case, overturn the Supreme Court. Her credentials to serve as a judge in a death penalty case had lapsed after his case reversed she files for special dispensation to become a death penalty, judge and says, even though, don't still have my credentials. I want to be the judge on his case seeks out his case. Their seeking death penalty in he denied him, the constitutional protections that those? U S, constitution, said that when you death qualify, a jury, if you ve late. These rules, the cases given back on appeal- and, I would say, your honor you. Understand, we're gonna be back here again. You can't not tell the jury, dont research, the case in the hallway they're gonna research, the case in the hallway and she was
She wanted to kill him in. At one point, I stood up and I said I'll tell you something I had to go at her so hard. I find out that she was the judge in the trade on Morton case whose husband represented George Zimmermann, and wouldn't we herself so all sudden, the paper start picking up that I'm clashing with her in courts and I One point had such a run him with her that I sat down and Clemente was crying and I said I'm sorry. I thought it was a fire me because I went out with her so hard, and I said I said I understand and he put his arm and he said she's going kill me. He said: please keep tune. So, I kept, I just kept going out her and she finally I declare mistrial.
Because a jerk came in and said that they were all research in the case in the hallway and that the thought that he was listening to music because he was listening to the translation headphones so get these exoneration. It is such a rule in quite a few Meet Clemente. He's the most gentle kind human being and is still an immigration limbo and to tell what a great man the skies in their in Florida. Lake. I didn't, like I'm thinking, there's no fucking way, I'm going to get him off and he's calling me going to listen. We get him out, I'm going to get, will get him up apartment and will pay for this and pay for that. I thought he was crazy. I said this guy is no fucking clue about begins, and to you know, I'm I'm such a job amidst so in his dead, and I am so in all of him. Even though is my friend that to this day he and I have joined,
we supported Clemente financially, but he pays for his room and board and to be able to in a position to help these guys and just help them started life again and This guy still believes in America. After all the time the name is still believes- is the best place to be way. Happens to a judge like how is a judge not go to jail. How How does someone I mean? How does someone get away with that May she's violating the law in clearly he's innocent right, so he's trying to kill a man who's in and other judge that took over the case. She had to accuse herself fit of embarrassment and the judge that took over the case of such a beautiful guy, whose name is kaluza and all he did was uphold. The law and he the prosecutors, would come in and try to get rid of yours. That said, I believe that you know I'll, listen to the facts. And I will only get rid of him
I will consider life instead of death and he was just so poor and you they have immunity is the short answer, these judges and prosecutors. One of the many flaws of our system right Jason, is that they all have immunity. So what about the cops. Are we talking about the cop? Beat the gun confession? How does a cop like that not go to jail. How does if you know that. What where's that carve now want to? got promoted, one of them got promoted. One of them guide do no the kid was innocent and that they did this many Times they do Joe, and you know we can't say, make a blanket statement that they all do. None of us believe that all of them are bad there are a lot of really bad actors throughout the system and they don't face repercussions and, as a result of that, and it so important people to know notice. I talk about on my pie, cast all the time and implementation episode is so wonderful because in India,
episode. You really feel his humanity, he still a great sense of humour. He still have the joy of life and all the exonerates. I find have this sort of incredible, so I can only describe it as race right after literally being too how like death row in Florida, it doesn't get closer to help them that Ray and he was there for fourteen years when he talks about on the parliamentary was on death row for fourteen years? Listen! There's a lot lot worse than till, we don't get me started Anthony PAN of it, which is the current case in Ohio. You, your fuckin head will explode. We I got em off after he had. He was actually ten of the fourteen years. He was on. Florida is death row father. For years were in jails, not to be technical but tat. He was on death row, but he's funny, Jacques, as a way out of the project, a little you into this right so in in occupied calves, unlawful conviction, he talks about how when he went
the prisoner and speak English, any figured. He mean member, this Josh and he said he and I need to learn how to speak. English. I think I'm never going to get out of here. If I can't help in my defence. So he asked the girl. For a viable and by the guard said. There's no no bible to this, because this is hell no bibles here too. Gave him instead a letter of TAT Book, a penthouse letters like pouring important and so committee says he. He read this thing. Seven in times and he says the seventeenth time we finally got a hard ADI says without because for me, because I realized I could speak English, you hear him say they said you just you wanna hugged love, agree such a good, indecent guy and he just loves life he appreciates everything, but imagine that it took Josh. And right one of the great lawyers in our country. I might add that that was right after I now has. That's me on the right. Right now is the moment that was them
meant that he got exonerate while CO, Council, Lindsey, bony and Dylan Black southern gentlemen, who this case change their lives and that's more Parma who I mention before and when and so it went. Where is he now he's listen to this. How about this? He would go into court when he was back, I and the white, and he would throw a fit I'm fuckin innocent who the fuck are you to do this to me early enough for appearances when I knew him he was very docile, so he acted exactly how I would expect someone act so watch this three days. After he gets out. I always told him: I'm gonna get you out of here in jail, I would say, and I'm going to take you to the beach and have a beer. And I would say to Jason up I'm starting to think that I'm not gonna be able to live up to it. And I can call a two days after he's out or in a hotel,
so you know he got located at this place, called the sunny Centre and Tampa this property were they have like apartments for death, rogues, honour, exonerees and Jason goes to me. That's my point. I bought the proper, even know it, and these, like these guys, like Fuckin, Robin Hood. There's the Miami reassuring, like literally from death row to the front row rate, is incredible and I actually wanted to give you mention the need to give this report actually had that experience about a year ago dissolve topic, but I can't help saying this news on my mind, About a year ago I was visiting and innocent guy when a year and a half ago now, because it is early last January visiting it? Isn't guy death row in taxes? Name rob will and dumb. I left there and flew to allay that was on a Monday was down there and then put allay and ended up going to Grammy's on Sunday and there have been moving around some sees virus in the front row, and I had feeling like
holy shit. What a week I literally went for death row to the far right. It's a strange life. They leave us. It is a double life, but it's you know it. It really is. It gives a lot of meaning to two hour days. You know and its important. You know I can't help talking about the death penalty when we talk about Shorty Clemente, because in this country. A lot of people still the way the death penalty- and I dont in- I say to people believe in death penalty. Is I respect your view what percentage of innocent people are you ok with execute right, because the system is fundamentally flawed? and even if this system was reformed in all the ways we can sit here and think I've read live to my ideas on that still gonna, be errors, there's always gonna, be there always are the errors made, and so will you?
have to accept that there are going to be mistakes. We know that, like in Florida word, Josh represents James Daily and again we did a Pike S episode about his case as well, James is either gonna, be the hundredth guy, execute by the state of Florida or the thirtieth exonerated from death row. Clemente was the twenty ninth and I'm representing, who should be the thirtieth so they're, not even if all the people they executed were guilty, and we know they were right. We know certain people like Jesse to Pharaoh who was absolutely Edison executed by state of Lord in the gruesome execution where the electric chair a quorum. What malfunction in his head caught on fire and had dicks electrocuted three times even if they got those right, they aren't even batting seven hundred right, and in the wheezy, unable to your point before Joe a guy named John Thomson. Rest in peace was a good friend of mine. He came within a month of being executed by the State of Louisiana when
an attorney investigator staring into a microscope and saw the dna evidence to prove that he was not guilty of this murder and he was ultimately exonerate and he wrote an opinion peace than there are times when he set out on understand why the prosecutor hoop. Simply because he proved that they knew he was innocent before they prosecuted right. He knew it and It was absolutely proven that was not in question, so key set out our understand why that prosecutors not being charged with attempted murder, they tried to kill me and they knew. I was innocent and proven that, but happens to the prosecutor. Nothing, nothing! Nothing! This is I've been saying this for a long time. It is a real problem with human beings when it comes to anything where there's a game and the problem with policing and prosecuting people convicting people, and it's a game in me meaning that there's winners and losers and when one is winners and losers, people cheat there's a lot of people, poor character and they,
Just want to win and they get caught up in this game and you can call it a game. You can call the pursuit whatever you want to call it. There's a there's, an end that you want to achieve if you're successful and if if you dont cheese that and you are unsuccessful, so when people are trying to achieve this end, they will do all kinds of things and it just inherently. Apart of human beings that are weak people of wheat character, people that are morally flawed, they do things like that. They'll del. Didn't they'll, know they're wrong and they do it anyway. They they know that someone is innocent and they pursued anyway, because they want that w it's a real problem with people. I've seen it with it. We ve all seen playing games of people. Kids do it. You know adults to elect. When you see a groan, adult cheating at cards, I just again, cards? It's a fucking. It's embarrassing think like who are you?
Do you really you hated on the head so much, but that's all right. It's a game! Listen! It is so even in the prosecutor coenties case- and this is not this- is not some one off circumstance, Joe. You could not have articulated security better. I mean it is You ever been in an argument with someone, and it's like with my wife sometimes shall be like no. You left the keys here and I'm like now. I know I given them back to you and then as you are in the argument. You remember you know what she's right, I actually right that, and you have all you have the decision to make am I gonna beat up version and they say I locked up, or am I neither am I going to continue down this course right on fortunately, you know- and I think I think Joe like hit on the fundamental Sykes I caught. The psychology is almost like you're right, it's deadline areas either winner Lou, yes, and I was begging- I mean you know, I'm an emotional dude, I'm bushy and I'm I had to weep.
To this prosecutor, implement these case. The real murderer on the stand- and I got my First question to her was how many times have you threaten a murder? Someone watching dug in they get she said. Never I haven't. Ash camp video of her saying to a cop blast. Her head against the partition, I'm enough, fuckin murder, you you ma the fucker is. I played the video for. And I said what about that, she and I didn't listen and an watch its pouch. You those your voice right and he now got her and then she says well, I blackout. I say things and do things and I black atom block em out finally got her do admit said: isn't it true that you may have murdered your mother and your grandmother and blocked it out? She said yes, and I I had to sit in a room with this prosecutor and at No? It was just like you know, like
an angry cry, Zalm angry that he won't. You say I fucked up here we fucked up. We got the wrong person and I'm we. To him saying can't you just admit that you made a mistake and in your right. It is that that I have seen it so many times would prosecutors, it's all about getting the w and they mornin myths are wrong. I think that there is something deeper about human psychology working there where the power powers that be won't admit. I mean to say, but Kemal Harris was no different here in California. Right I mean she fiercely defended wrongful Convictions why, I mean this isn't like made up. There's like a huge investigative piece in the New York Times about it. It's not something that germane to Florida, its income. A to New York and God forbid, you're in the south. You know and its
it's a real problem and I don't know how to solve it. When it's not like they're, going to completely overhaul the system and stop the whole- set up now with a judge and prosecutors in attorneys, and it is not going to change. It means The system is in place theirs human cases right is constantly constantly hearing new cases too, completely overhaul in and change this method of of policing and convicting people. It would- require a massive undertaking, that's? Why we're so appreciative that you give us this forum, because there are so many amazing people that you know ignores that. It really literally takes being in in the bow if you will of the system and getting it beneath your fingernails and standing up to and speaking truth to power it's coming terrifying to be there too, to know that someone is willing to convict someone did, they know is innocent because they want to win and theirs
Why are there so many factors that go into raffle convictions? We see, again and again. Tunnel vision is one right: they lock in and you they decide, you're the guy and then more new evidence comes in says he did it. I don't want to hear Randy D D. Just it's a psychological think is also blind ambition. And there are so many factors that that that I think some of them are preventable and when, when we set out to do these podcast, whether it's the wrong ratification want or junk science, the Josh's, the host of just came out or even the false confession series that we did. Our goal is to educate the public cause. You're listeners are good at what you and me everyone Jamie over here. The engineers can end up on on a jury at some point right and it may be having you may be, holding somebody's life in your hands and its important field. I understand that the people that you hope that our gonna be telling you the truth that you respect because authority figures right. I grew up respecting uniforms and and everything else, and I still do but
The fact is, they may not be telling the truth and the just because somebody says there and expertise with Josh talks about in his pocket doesn't mean they're, really an expert, and they may be talking about things that are actually junk. Science furthermore, there are allowed to lie in the interrogation, and this is something if we get nothing else across today. I always tell people want to go to talks and, on my show, I talk about the fact that if you get picked up and brought in for questioning young people who are innocent waved their Miranda rights. Eighty five percent of people we them around rights. Anyone people were innocent, almost always do, because I don't think they have anything to hide. They think I'll. Just go in I'll. Tell him what what like, I was an error. I was with my mom. Whatever was, and I go home, I may not say that you're suspect in all of me. So you couldn't. We just want to ask you a few questions. If so, the answer is, if that happens to you. Only thing you should say is this: is my I'm Joe
Rogan and I want a lawyer or whatever your name is whoever's. Listening does the only words you should say because they're, not your friends and you can get talked in that interrogation, room crazy shit happens. They don't always be people up. They dont need to They can use coercive psychological tactics that can get people to confess to crimes that they didn't commit, and once you start talking and you're in little airless room, you ve seen it on tv right and they start a good cop, bad cop and they intimidate you and they threatened with the death penalty and they're allowed to lie, know why they allowed a lie. That's a great question: in other western countries there not, but here they are so they can sit there and especially a you know the people that are most likely to false confess our people.
The lessons right, anyone his brain is not fully formed. We know the reins, not fully formed here: twenty five and military veterans, interestingly enough and their disproportionately affected by this, because they used to obeying authority figures rate and following orders, and so the Norfolk for a classic case of that for four guys confessed to crime. It in committee, and none of them did it and the sad central point? Five is another good example right, those this kid there were just young teenage kids and they they can sit there and they could threaten me with the death and they can sit there and go job. Listen. We got your body in the next room he's not even there and he says he saw you do it. We got your fingerprints on the on the knife, Joe, when you talk about best thing for you is to combat and Joe ass. You asked if the the critical question which Why are they allowed to do? It Is there not a law? No one, The balls, all these blowhard politicians have the balls to intervene. Like this? You know they're, afraid to piss off the police union, because they'll lose that boat to end
It is like. The stem of the police units should be the ones or clamored right that that introduce legislation they now rang introduce legislation right, especially now introduce legislation that makes it a crime right too, lied to a suspect. Think about the mine fuck. That's going on here remember. The psychology is deprived you, sleep we're going deprive you of food we must scare the living shit out of you. We're. Gonna lie to you we're gonna lie to you and make you ever see that Chris Rock Bit or like pull me over and afterward Medea? Maybe I fuckin did do it just like that shit is going on and it's like, you know you're like me, I did something in didn't. Remember it that's what they start getting you to believe, because if they're telling me their say, Joe listen. We have how the fuck. Do you explain how you DNA is on the victim. How do you explain that in your thinking yourself? I,
fuck and explain that ay I didn't do it, but maybe I don't know, maybe I did something you don't remember it, and then there is there's this week Is your here from a lot of people that are victims of coercive interrogations is. I figured out just tell him what they wanted to hear, get out of the room and then sorted out right and they are not- and I say to you, listen you just a kid, no one's going to believe that you committed this gruesome murder right. You just gotta my partners, crazy. I don't know what he's gonna do you by while he's out of the room, let me tell you get the best thing for you to do is just signed a piece of paper and will sort this out later. You'll be fine, but now you ve just sign your own death or because juries can't understand. When you ask people, would you ever capacity climbing comment as the first hundred people, you see they all say nor unarmed, I'm smart? I would never do that Rebecca. Thing is they don't realize twenty five percent
of the dna exoneration. Probably twenty five percent are up to involve false confessions, so just process that right. That's how many people confessed, because- because they good and some of them are that's right. Some of those great at some of them may be mentally challenge right, the kind it's also a game. It's a game, because your gave the same kind of game. It's a game to get you to confess. It goes on even after the conviction has been overturned. Liken committees case like in my own, adopted or nor Jackson's case, where the Tennessee Supreme Court unanimously overturned her conviction for murdering her own mother and in there in their ruling they excoriated the prosecutors for having put so loose with the rules are to say the least, and yet they came back in said. Listen, we're gonna! Try you again! Unless you taking in those who take a plea, tenors, ten most people say to me well, but with the kid try again for the same thing, but they can because the higher court, when they overturn your conviction, the indictment still stand
the regional dimension and most prosecutor, was a while. You know that it's a long time ago and we ve been proven wrong, and you know that We feel that a girl, but it's if they really are vindictive They may say you know what I want to protect this this conviction and let us not forget that every time we convict an innocent person, the real the real perpetrator remains free and that even if you're someone who maybe he just didn't pretty hard line hard core on law and order, and whenever you allow your listeners covered different walks of life different viewpoints, but every body can agree that we want the person specialities vicious violent crimes, brutal crimes, we We should all want the real perpetrator off the street and not for the convenient target to just get. You know a man handle them and and and and brutalized by the system and then that other perpetrator oftentimes goes on to commit more terrible crimes and creates more innocent victims. Josh you you,
you were talking about common Harris, and I think this might be a good time to talk about this, because she might be the vice presidential nominee. What what specifically she do where there was someone who was innocent. Or someone who was wrongfully convicted. Let me give a caveat, ok caviar is that I know I'll catch shit from some people are too. You have to do everything you can to make sure that tromp is not elected, and I will say that, even even she's, an improvement, as vice president. If he does picker things and improvement of my mind so that caviar, we it would take pod cast and for more to go through. She fear firstly fought wrongful convictions, was shamed by judges when she was district, Ernie in San Francisco or as the case, the gate? The gauge case, George Gay, the George Gauge case, where
our prosecutors hit evidence and they tried to pull text, once she knew There was evidence that was withheld old from defence attorneys, one She should have known, in my opinion that people were innocent. She tried to attack those conviction why? Because she wanted to continue winning she block dna Sheep, cheap went to great lengths to- not a block access to dna for people there accused of convicted of felonies. Think about we're talking about a twelve dollar dna tests to see if the biological material from a crime, has been preserved is actually the defendants right. She blocked. Just that I mean Letty Block access to something like that. That seems like that should be a right yeah. Like it should be a right, but in a lot of states, there's legislation that says
You cannot get access to it and the rationale behind it is at all open up a flood gate of criminal, defend and ass for the biological evidence in their case to be tested in Macao. That's the last thing we want is you're innocent people being freed. We saw what was her rut justification for this. You know when she's ass for her justification of it. It's always been on a debate stage and shall was the fault too. I stand by my record as a prosecutor and she's never had an explanation that I have ever seen. I don't Jason there Jason and I were Talking about this before we came on today, because there was a New York Times be spy on her name's escaping Lara Barcelona, Leora Babylon, which, if, if any you're listeners want to listen to her. If she goes into you know exhaustive detail about, specific cases, and things are commonly Harris did, and you know the sad part about it. That's it right. There
times. Kamel Harris was not a progressive prosecutor, s was often on the wrong side of history. One the highlight the marijuana one that she just criminalizing marijuana and this state now in what we can hope, is that she certainly been saying all the right things lately. I dont know what to believe to be honest, Moscow. She wants to be the president. Well, ok, fair enough. I mean I'd like to believe that people can evolve and I hope to her viewpoints have evolved. Now she supports legalization, I believe, but the fact is it's it's impossible to ignore and I hoped I hope Bob. I pick some one else personally, but you know we'll see and violently pickin anything, I will do what they're doing it form at this point while support him, no matter what who apex, if you pick, sir, so be it because I believe were in an existential crisis and we need to do see the result. Look at this. This is crazy.
Could have demanded dna testing and Coopers case no Kevin Coopers on death row. I you think This could If they had denied dna testing and calamities case he would have, either dead or still on death row. What are we talking about here? We're talking about a test, She has constantly in case After case issue, after issue and locked the people that she heard, the most are people of color in this country because they make up. You know does the portion Andrew Disproportion, and so it's it's. It's kind of truant children thing made me fuckin, sick, awful! She went to the parents of true children and threaten them with jail time imagine your single mom you're just doing your best put food on the table. You ve to work to jobs in your kids are understandably fucking up and not going go because there's no father around did Emily in
dead? Yet you not devastating. This is think about it this way, because I can only think about it in real life examples. This is how enough of a shit, show and fight to get out even out. Look, I have a client in New York. Who is and these people become like family to us. I mean he's adopted one of The exonerees is his daughter. Now you know, John were: Steve was convicted of raping and murdering someone with two of his friends to people that worked for him. He is framed by a cop they take. Hair from the victim and they planted in his moving truck arduous caused the way that they found out that it was planted. That when your hair you're gonna love this right, he went and the hair is attached to the human head when you die theirs, a physiological phenomenon that happens, copper mortem route, banding or a ban goes around the route of your hair. Ok,
happens after you, ve been dead, the minimum for hours per Situations theory is that he picks up this girl. Sixteen year old girl walking home from the rollers getting rank with his two bodies throws van they raper killer. Dumper near a cemetery in all happens in forty five minutes, the way that they feel finally find out that he was frame. Is it's a moving truck searches moving truck and they fine hundreds of hairs, because We all share fine, one hair from the victim and its pristine. It's the the prestige here in the truck no kinks on it. No doubt no debris and there a post mortem route band around, which means they had to have taken it from them. Tops after four have therefore ours and we ended up finding out that the cop had access to the envelopes were. The autopsy was in any event, John Rusty, back to the dna, though purpose
trader ejaculate it and they had a lot of seamen, alot of biological material DNA. He fought for years to get access to DNA. Finally, access to it? They test the dna and he's excluded and his two co defendants are excluded. I what Secure does, as they say, okay. Well, there must have been a fourth perpetrator So they start testing, and this is a process that two years they start five years, start testing. Every single known, male associate of John was Debo Dennis huh. Stead and John CO get and they can for, and it's only after that that he gets out here Ben eighteen years for rape and murder? He didn't commit he's. You know, I love him he's like a, like a brother to me now button you know, he's destroy
you, don't come back for what happened to someone like that. Do they have any recourse is again, you know, there's a happy ending in that regard and John Sore, I was one of his One of the lawyers that represented him in his civil rights trial. He was awarded eighteen million dollars, a million dollars for every year, that he was incarcerated and you know to show you like what the lasting psychological damage. So we got to go to a civil jury for civil rights violations against Nassau County with which indemnified this cop that framed him and he got some closure that way to the extent that you can get any closer, we were outside waiting for the verdict outside of the courthouse me smoking cigarettes and he put out the
The greatly took a paper bag. He took a plastic bag out of his pocket grabbed. The bud and put in the plastic bag and sealed it put it in his pocket, Sir John, what the fuck are you doing? He so you think I'm gonna, let someone take my dna and free again. You know- and I know that's how bad it is so think about that in the context of Kemal hairs. A block access to dna once you get the Fuckin dna yours, still sometimes in a crazy uphill battle, because their power? security is, in my opinion, just like Mala Harris the warm when that want to win and want to protect that conviction, and we We have so many cases german last year this year last year, the innocents project was representing a guy in Arkansas, namely devotee the Kansas, conservatives are concerned was Arkansas and we were just just wanted. The dna test it and we had a lot of evidence that he was innocent and the state refuse. So let us tested and went ahead and executed in any way we also
of cases like the sadly alley case, which I with the same prosecutor, prosecuted might or might not. The daughter, Nora nor Jackson, but Instead, we always case he was executed in deeds denied him. Access to dna was horrible crime, a young cadet girl was jogging and she was really, I think, raped and murdered, and he was executed for this crime. Asking for the dna to be tested and stay reviews. In five years later the higher court said. Oh, you guys made a mistake. You should have allowed. The dna testing now his daughter, has come forward and said. I want to know. I want my dad's dna test it. I want to prove his innocence and we now have evidence of who we think it might have been, because there was another guy who was a cereal a murderer and and rape to his in that area. At that time we don't know that it was evident, and we just dna we can't now and the state. Refuse to let us tat, but her tested, even posthumously. So
this calls on all over the country and its crazy. Of course we want the dna testing. Everybody should want the dna testing and But one thing I do want to point out is that it's it's gratifying to see attention and being brought by by you and by others, people who are so prominent in society and its also become such a hot button issue that if you look at France is a club which our right of her campaign was derailed. Because foregoing hey what about my own morale, which was it sixteen year old kid that she prosecuted there was evidence of his innocence. She ignored all of it here. Still in prison. Twenty years later and
Each out she touted this, as, as you know they she she bragged about it. I was that goes and accomplishment, as are the copyright and land. She also part of the problem or dark. Chauvelin was still out with what was still acting as a police officer, I'm familiar with baby. She was yeah. She meets heard that tell us if she's from any apples. Yes right now, there's disconnection because there is: had something to do with him and his the prior cases where he had exhibited police brutality and that she there done nothing about it. She was connected to the sum in many people's eyes was eliminating her as being a possible candidate for vice president, because they thought it was gonna come up, and I read that very briefly. A few months ago, Gmail find someplace she denied charge that she didn't charge on. But I don't know denied they didn't charge it. What mean that my report that she failed to bring charges on two thousand and six.
Sounds like a delta negative one ally, but she's is for Charles has no the President Mexico's but Navy now Joe Navy. Now we will have an environment where you know prosecutors. We know our are ambitious. People generally speaking there you know everyone is out, has then right to a right to you, the level that they are capable of succeeding to, but not by cheating, right to about what you said before, But now there is. Finally, even though there are no legal consequences, except in the rarest rare as rarest of cases, but now at least there are the consequences in terms of running for higher office, where these things can come back and by you in the ass and hopefully that will make people think twice.
And this is the case with closure. Yeah that'd tell us, it is the case one more time. What happened is a kidney, mayan beryllium. Why? Oh and morale be? U R, L, L and he was sixteen or there was an ethic- was a young girl eleven year old girl was shot in her kitchen was yours, do our homework and that you know, the pressure to solve that case. Raven they picked up this kid. I don't know why exactly remember all the details in the case, because I've so many of the him ahead at once clover shower help jail. Teen for life. Bookcase was flawed. An AP news and this is a long time ago, is still in prison and by the way where it we're picking on, and you know certain people by the there. This is the problem has exclusive to damage crowds by any means. That means there a ton of unity, Arkansas Kayser Courses Republican. So what is I'm sorry do irreparable? What was the evidence? It indicated that he was innocent. Do you know
cases. I remember that the actual killer can fast in this case, and this guy still in jail, you still in jail, others there's a lot of evidence of his innocence. We can go back through a bright, it's it's disgusting case, and he is you know, but he still there just like. So many of these other people are- and I do want- what the compensation cause you raise that earlier job, as I think that an important thing for us to talk about, because in the Twenty seven years I ve been doing this work. People ask me The question that you asked both question. You asked actually most frequently people who are new to what I'm talkin to them on the golf course entitle them anywhere. We are and could I'm always you're out their talk about this stuff and they ll say to me did. Did did the two people who framed and update the databases, consequences right in the answers almost always now and then they will tell me that the that they got compensate like people, they breathless Raymond
I want some like this is so hard, but they react to what you did this cry with any they re and the answer is usually not- I mean this rest evil case and john- it's such a beautiful, beautiful guy. He also was on my pocket. What kind marries incredible and he's, helping other exonerates to theirs, as so many others are. But and then I want to shout them out for that, but in the already of cases, there's no compensation. We at the innocents project and that innocence project that or for people want to learn more. We are we working state by state, Rebecca Brown runs our policy department, she's, incredible and she's, going state by state with exonerates to pass compensation statues, because eighteen states have no compensation statue whatsoever for exonerates and some of them it's capped at twenty five thousand. Well, Illinois its two hundred thousand a matter how long your info classes of the cop they planted the evidence is there
consequences for him? None what none? You know the judgment against him was covered by NASA County. He d I'd: a horrible death of cancer and you know, John always says to me look out never wish a lot anyone, but it seems like karma. Played a part in that No it's interesting. You asked the question earlier dead: I'm not so sure I know the answer to which, as you know, when they're in their interrogating someone or they beating it can fashion out of them because they think they did it or not. And I dont know the answer. I think that there are some cops dead. You know bury Shack, taught me this once he said don't always demonize the cop, because sometimes I think that they feel like they are behind that their hunches better than the lack of evidence and others birds they feel like they feel it they think fit
person did at the Dell, let tee the means justify the air. The end justifies the means, so I don't know that they go in trying frame. Someone but there's always a point which, like the story with my wife and the keys, will you have a choice to you? Have this open. Your eyes and say you know, are My going to realise that there is no evidence here and get off this notion that this person committed The problem is with your wife and the keys. There's no consequence scientists, environment. You say I fucked up, I'm sorry right, but if you're a prosecutor, and you realize that this person is innocent and you back off and you lose the ACE, there's com the coins is for your career. You look like a fool. You look like you can't be trusted so he's gonna point that out when there's another case right, I mean list it extends the compensation issue watch what happens. Clemente there's a wrong, incarceration compensate, statute in Florida,
What it says is that from the time you are no longer incarcerated. You have ninety days to file Clemente, case, got overturned and I think two thousand thirteen the voice. Today. The Florida Supreme Court overturned his conviction, the state Flora said we're going to retry you. They nouns did the same day we filed for on full compensation, wrongful in cars, nation compensation and it got denied and what the state said was, on the day that they announced there we're gonna, retry him he was no longer incarcerated. He was one from incarcerated to being in custody, and so, while that's that's pretty fuckin rich sooner, words. What he should have thought was I'm in a face: the death penalty again for a crime I didn't commit, no one came to his prison cell and said by the way, you're no longer incarcerated, you're just in custody, so they write statutes in a way that they have a try.
Door to jump jump out of and not his compensation was denied, so I thought the federal civil rights complain on his behalf. We have a civil case going, but It's very rare that they get. And seated- and I think that that's were your work. I have been now spired, so much by Jason, because There's a guy that uses in It made me poorer, but I'm happy to be poor as a result, because were he's made his mission in life a menace a modern day, Robin Hood. He really is he's made his mission in life. Two, I'm sorry. If I make you blush, but he's like here of mine, because he has made it his lights, calling that you know the people in need and that needed most are gonna, get it as long as he can give it, and- his sort of brought me along on that ride, so we personally
financially support, as many exonerates is. We can because we feel, like it's the very least we can do to try to help weather is buying someone a car, helping them their ran with school tuition whatever. It is because, as is the very least we can do, and most of them are denied compensation and until they can get back on their feet in some way I mean you think about it. They come out their life his ruin, you don't ever real. I don't care what anybody says you never really recover from this mean look twenty would send My daughter from his prison cell, squeeze it drawings, he taught himself to draw on death row, he told me. The only reason I learned to draw is because I would have I literally would have lost my mind: losing my mine and I had to face out something to channel my anxiety. When he got out. Jake
and has been having these art shows for death row fur. Death row inmates. Because so many of them, become good Artis. Could they have somewhat time on their hands and I said When did you want? Maybe we could do some art and raise some money for you and he started a weep. I said what's wrong, he said Josh I tried to draw and I had a panic attack, but it brought me back into the cell. And let me just talk about jobs for a second to, because what was first of all for blowing each helstone exaggerate its right has voted. I guess I was. We were introduced by the moral and who is the super bad ass senior Litigation council. Let the innocents project and when she put us together to several years ago, she's, I said
What what are you doing, because I'm a jury, selection experts, because I can look in your eyes and see your soul hoofed shipments, but anyway they even more than that, and the fact is that this case my son, Michael Michael Flom, eat. He called us early well, retarget he brought me the two, my attention to a case many Albert Wilson who we believe is wrongfully can be in Kansas, Josh's, wearing the shirt free Alber Wilson and brought it to Josh's attention. He looked at it and he said you know what time I'm going to take this case. Pro bono, we flew out there we visited out. It was funny because his lawyer forgot to tell him that is a local are afraid to tell him we're coming lipocine in animal house for the kids leading a playboy and then the bunny flies in the window. How do you know if I can say that anymore? But anyway, it's so? We just showed up unexpected here we are in like bumble, FUCK Kansas. And and sitting down and Albert and but but we were like that, jewish beetles walkin in your ventures in Gaza. Here from the instance, products like
we're here, to save you, Sir, but Josh is the guy who actually we we, we ve, been supporting them uncle attorney very good local attorney MIKE Wheel- and in this case and Josh, spending now? Is he volunteering? Your services he's spending his own money to finance the case, the part that he can't cover himself and he gets mad at me like if, if we hit it, we all today payments and if I they do and around he gets mad. It do who are you what the fuck is this some mother Teresa Shady whatever does about what the point is that I'm really excited that he's now doing this new pod cast junk size it and by the way, if anybody wants to to learn more about this, I post about all the time I'm Instagram, which is at its Jason Flom, there's another Jason Viruses schoolteacher Intel ass. If you had therefore has been that we know each other, but anyway, but yeah, it's Jason. Flom is my instagram anomalies posting about these cases, but so so Josh is now hosting a pike S cod,
Science with this is what we started talking about the beginning, and I made you stop and redirect so we come back to it. So explain like what what is the junk science? What what are the issues with wrongful convictions and junk science. So. All various disciplines of forensic signs are used to convict people and, in fact wrongfully In fact, Peters Pollack does groundwork polygraph not admissible. Not so no it doesn't work, it's not rely. But is it because you can beat it if you like, yeah you can beat it, there's all different factors: the cause, your blood pressure to rise. You know you, may have high blood pressure. You may your heart made. Faster and you get anxious and different situation, so it just doesn't work minutes not admissible in any courts, but I'm talking about things that you would probably think it just based on hot media. Even if your very well read- which you are you would say
well that's reliable bite mark evidence its please junk signs that the National Academy of Sciences is a goal standard. It's got the finest scientists in the country that review of all of the friends of disciplines. That are used in courts, found that would the x action a dna. All of these are fraught with problems. By mark evidence, blood spatter arson, coercion in court confession. So what the podcast does is it examines all of these friend episode But- episode It examines all these forensic disciplines and it goes. Route to explain how and why a there too. Oh bullshit, and be they are in the face of it. Being total bullshit still accepted now like the fact
you got emotional made me want to hug you because it was like I, you know that psych it takes a special person to be able to get there on that level, but now, We are trying to make an angry because I think it is it's to anger that should drive people morally tamer, take by taper about this and other things take the, but about all the so bite mark evidence for ok by market, leading. To give an example, I have cricket teeth like the bought, my bottom Tita cricket. If I bite into a mouthpiece like if I get southeast farms formed. You can clearly see. I could see, that's my teeth. He one another debt. You want to know the difference between a mouthpiece in human skin, everything humans, your skin is different, my skin, in thickness inconsistency. If your flexing, when I buy you if it during a struggle or not, and you have to all the sides, what the site this tells us is their bite marks. On human skin or not the unreliable, but there has been
study after study that the so called experts at the call Odin Tal can't tell the difference between a mark marking an insect by they can even agree. They were all shown. The self profess honest Odin tall just in the country, are all shown pictures of marks on. Human skin. They can't you agree as a threshold matter. What's a bite Markham? What isn't Zara? That's a medical term, Odin Tall just so Odin psychologist, is as a friend again dentist that fancies themselves an expert and bite marks, but it's bullshit not only bullshit, but the origin story of all these forensic scientists sciences. You end up down a rabbit hole to some fucked story that sounds like a wacky religion. Take bite marks, for instance,. There's. A guy named George borrows his irreverent and the late. Sixteen nineties he's a key use of torturing, young girls and Kay em
one of the forms of torture is biting them and he's tried and convicted, and they take him around the corner and pull his mouth open and they point to the coup. Goodness of his teeth, the ridges and his followers, and they compare it to the bite, Mark and he's hanged publicly and He cites the Lord's prayer at his hanging. In the you know, everybody in the crowded, like that's kind of fucked, up because witches aren't supposed to be able to cite the Lord's prayer book. This was a trial during the Salem which trials he's the the first posthumous, exoneration, I'm aware of twenty years after this, they end up finding out that George Boroughs was in a different town altogether. Nunneley did invite these people, but that the mood,
worn. Even bites is a part of the sealed asylum which trials that'll. They put. They passed, humorously exonerate him the colony of Massachusetts, Paces family compensation, so to this end the nineteenth seventies there's a guy Walter Marks that is acute a biting victim in a murder and the core. In that case says, you know what there is no one. Fabulous science here it can't be replicated but bite marks are associated with you know, I do A fine accident, burn victims and admit it, and it gets admitted into evidence. The appellate court says wall of the. If the judge founded credible, who are we to overturn it and so Joe watch this, It now infects and is probably in, Popular analogy to use now, but it spreads across the criminal justice system like a virus, every quarter
start citing this marks case and judges just start, admitting it the nest Academy of forensic scientists found that there's no way to replicate it unreliable, the there's this fucking crackpot name west, who is an ode intelligence that claim to use three d pictures and ultra violet. He so they set him up there, and ten. You know bite marks and, the mould of teeth from someone other than the defendant and said we think this is the defendant. Can you matches despite Marconi said, yes, they had sent the bite mark of someone other than the defendant. I mean it is that it is that bad of a junk science. So what what we are hoping to do is through Paul cast to educate people because it you're right? It is how do you? The whole system were it's a monster and one of the ways you can overhaul the system
you know everybody says how do you do ask me a lot how I get out of jury service and I You know what you should work, I'll be there, because, God forbid your accuses something Eden do. Wouldn't you want you on your jerry One of the ways we want to do it is to get people thinking. You know what I can make a difference here, because there is no peace, option innocence. We throw that around like it exists, it doesn't exist. There Vince been he's done, my firm has done one. Were well over. Ninety percent of people feel like if you ve been used of a crime- you probably did it look I represent the how I met Lennox I represent Lennox in a case where mixed flows, we should tell people so I manage Lennox, Louis and. I represent in him. How I met him was I represented him in a case and its interests. Most people say to me when I say that what did he do
the course, instead of what was the accused to actually wasn't accused of anything Lenny so assuming a boxing manager in a promoter from ripping em off and for stealing from it but If you ask people during jury selection, how many of you in a criminal case- and when I was you know, a lot of yours were asking. What did he do indeed anything. But if you ask shares in a criminal case, if a judge will let you ask it, but you should be able to ask how many of you think my client. He was a rested indicted, must have done something wrong, hands go flying up, and you know should be a basis to get rid of people. That's not the presumption. That is more, that's the assumption of guilt, it doesn't exist in this country and it takes more people to be conscientious, and one of the things that were trying to do on the podcast is educate them about these. Junk sciences said that, if you're ever on a jury- and you hear well,
the trajectory of the blood mark on the wall shows that the person must have grabbed the knife. From this angle, its total bullshit, Morton was the name of the partners, namely the park, asses wrongful conviction junk sigh so that boy splatter shit. I'd watch the whole thing online about how these people figure out. How someone must have hit em this way and I've seen it in movies. That's all bullshit, total bullshit said the second episode of the park ass. I have a guess, minimum PAMELA Cool off whose an award winning writer she just one. Every or you could win for writing an article about uninformed then, in a case of mine and I to know her and she wrote an amazing investigated. Peace about blood spatter evidence for pro public or Texas, monthly or the New York Times. One of those three I should know, and she went under cover deep and
she became a certified blood, spatter Alice as part of a research This is a discipline that was born in the basement. I some whack job up in New York. He called it the National forensic Laboratory or some shit like that, and it was his basement and his house, and he would things like, like Rico, crimes. By, like you know, hitting davers and watch The blood spatter and, like think about it, there's so many things wrong with that, the way the blood travels had of the body from a static you know a static body verses, one more blood is so love is circulating. Orange. He changes it. The temperature of the blood is different if your struggling and I It you with a blunt force, object, hammer a bat and your arm is coming. This way depends on the speed. Your arm is travelling, it is,
total and utter bullshit, but its admissible admissible, as is bite mark evidence, even though, in all fifty states, as is even though that the highest court in Texas faced in the worth of the innocence project, I mean the highest authority in Texas, strongly admonished the course not to consider blood consider by my covenants, but they still do in spite of the fact that their case after a case that proves that these guys, make themselves out to be these experts, don't know anything about what they're talking about. I mean it's, it's. We should all be embarrassed and ashamed. This is allowed to go on in our courts. You think about it, Joe Forensics ontology was created as a practice so that if there the disaster. If there's a plane crash rate and bodies are obliterated, they can take a full set teeth and it can prepare through dental records. Now you take the David, someone's gonna bite, an imperfect surface right like a finger or inordinate. You know your neck and whenever it is right and now you're gonna go with a couple of teeth on an image.
Fact, surface days or weeks later and you're gonna go. This must be Jos TEETH, because sometimes I really know if you have teeth or Joe check this out in the National Academy of Sciences Report, they were, They get a study and they site to it. In the report. You can get it online. It's they did a study where they would have people with no teeth by human skin and the people with no missing there too front teeth. The bite mark appears as if they have to front teeth people that have to front You can buy down and if their incisors too long, it can make it up that their missing to front teeth, so it's just and you know, and as far as blooded spatter is concerned, there is a case I think it's the Petersen case My friend, David Rudolf, did neither staircase that show on Netflix. Yet with a guy, Rachel Guy was accused of pushing down stairs think it was in this case, where they were trying to recreate the blue.
Spatter analyse we're trying to recreate the spatter in the staircase and there's the of them doing it and they keep on heading this bum receptacle full of blood and they can We created and they keep on doing and doing it and finally, on the whatever fifteenth try they get it and they also celebrating and high fighting use. Was to be able to replicate this shit and the reason why DNA This is so reliable is dead. It's going to be the same every time. It is the gold standard it now. There these two manipulated there are certain people out there that are trying to fuck with it right now. How so, like France, there's this guy, who runs this computer algorithm and he claims to be able to take a mixture of a bunch of different peoples, dna and untangle it right and be
quickly be able to say who's, DNA is what- and you know won't give the source code for his data and he d shouldn't be a black box, others. There are some things going on like that for the most part, when it's done correctly and the rights and it's a replied. You can bet on DNA, but a lot of pattern, matching disciplines, blood, spatter fingerprints, in some instances bite market France. You know it What are the other ones
tread tracking on shoes, arson horse, arson, artisan one arson slowly and they can figure out like where a fire was started, always wondered about that. So now we are supposed to have not at least also arson other than arson. Science is not science whatsoever arson. You can become a licence arson investigated with a forty hour correspondence course. I know it sounds like a joke, but a true seem thing would blood's better to forty our course. At the end of the week you can go into any court in the country and Samuel blood's better. I always wondered because I would see a house burned to the ground, then they would say are they determined. It was started by a fire, and this is how they determined and avoid but everything's, burnt out like how do you know there are countless people serving hard time and in prisons in America, Joanne Parks and Kristine bunch. I just interviewed on my pocket. She brought me to tears, who was convicted of setting a fire her case in Indiana haven't seen as this Joe we're about to release this episode, but she was,
the twenty one year old mother of a three year old boy and her trailer caught fire. She was asleep. She woke up. She couldn't get into this and room it was to the fire, was two out of control, ready in the little boy died, and the fact is that she they they went, they wrestler six days later in charge of arson, Cinema and the prosecutor said to the jury. Local. We admit, we don't have a motive, we don't have a motive. She was a loving mother with no mental issues. With no precise I asked are you have any other history, the law enforcement she goes here once I got a warning for five miles. An hour of the speed limit and cheese everybody said she was a doting, loving mother. She was working in going to school. And she lost everything she owned. Shouldn't have insurance June a shirt aware at the end of this right is she was in her pajamas. It's like I meet. Was an electrical virus proves seventeen years later by actual acts. What did they use as the arson evidence against her? In my case they claim
that there was a certain type of accelerant which there wasn't they withheld evidence that there was a kerosene that had been present in the house from previous owners who had tat, who had to come forward and said that there was no and that there was There was a large has decided that she was guilty and they were now try to win, and that's the sick thing about it is that these arson cases there isn't. There was no crime. There was a tragedy, but no crime, nobody and how long it right away. For always, I was in for seventeen years and she's such a beautiful human. I mean you if you would meet hurry even and you just wanna hugger she's, just a magnificent human who in prison did did most phenomenon things and now she's helping Others she has an organization, maybe could look it up Jamie. She has a wonderful organization, I'd like to shout and she's making a real difference, and she, I think I'll, pass a compensation stance, In her assignments,
seven Ewart. I was just going to say that what happens with a lot of these forensic signs as if they were the reverse engineer, now come They decide that the person did it. And there's all this, this confirmation bias. I know that I've heard you talk about it, you're familiar with it. You know you know the desired outcome, so you confirm that bias. So you know. They then start looking at a streak. I'm a smoke stain on the wall and knowing that the theory is that There was a match struck and placed against the wall right. They will say. Well that's why you see a pattern that you do of that stain on the wall of smoke. Were the reality is that there are a lot of different explanations for how something can look, the sign if analysis of church of charred remains not remains of people but remains of different things, chemical compounds and things, and if you're,
working to reverse engineering. How come you know it's in its easy, to make this stuff sound, reliable, because if you don't have experience with it, I mean look. This is a big I hadn't done any bite more cases and all my cases, so I actually short try your approach it with an open mind. Release stunned at what on finding out doing research for the episodes, because its It's like some wacky religion. You know that somebody invented in their house and people buy it. So is all this stuff still in use, because no one has exposed the fact that its all junk science or is it because its established as a part of what they except in trials, and they to have made the corrections yet because, if they did, then they would have to accept the fact that all these other convictions or based on this junk science would be open to reinterpretation in the trail
four junk size, Josh addresses exactly bat and he judged very eloquently, which is that along with Chris Fabric, can't who is a this strategic litigation director at the innocents project It was actually opposed. I created a lot of my dad who is not with us anymore. Why help to create? I should say he doesn't incredible job, but basically they keep using it because the precedent is their right. Once it's an Josh talks about there's a maybe we can even play the trailer, but I'm sure mother right. First of all, it sighed deeply that they would killer keepeth. Ok, let's that's that it's hard to believe that they would killer Cabot. Ok, let's that's the suspended this week. How are you gonna, shaken baby re? Use your strong guy? Ok, but let's say you don't have a big muscle mass and you have a baby sundays, their toddlers, you couldn't fifteen twenty pennant kid you're gonna hold it out at arm's length and shaken. Yeah that you can shake a baby hard enough to rattle its brain without injuring it in any other way. Right. So weird,
was to believe that a woman whose mother, right first of all its side, the plea that they would killer keepeth. Ok, let's that's the suspended this week. How do you do they shake a baby right here? This you're strong guy? Ok, but let's say you don't have a big muscle mass and you have a baby. Sometimes your toddler's. It could be a one thousand. Five hundred and twenty five kids you're going to hold it out at arm's length and shake it no your arms, I'm gonna do an invite away. Unless, you know it's interesting to Joe, because you you know earlier. I may dislike it, it seemed pollyanna places this reference, the Lennox Louis and the reason I made it is because it blew my mind at how many people walk into You know what Melissa Calusinski is wanted, can't leave her out Jon Jones in Ohio, innocent He just misdiagnosed. You know it's. It's sing to job because you, fault that people read and whether or not that with some probably bias places this reference the Lennox upon and the reason I made it is because
blew my mind at how many people walk into a court proceedings the misperception and it. It open my eyes in that case, because people thought or here's a big black dude, that's a boxer. He must not be that smart and he must have done something wrong. That was the the that was the default Bore ad and whether or not that was some insurance bias or not lingo about you know, don't know anything about that. I think it's pretty obvious, though, but the conceived notion that people walk in any criminal court room with is that the person must have done it. Most. People think that Someone was arrested or accuse; they must have done it. So that was why said earlier, the presumption of so then, when you hear this impressive sounding lingo about something you don't know anything about and there's someone who is qualified as a quorum quote: expert
and they're sitting there using language. You don't know you can't really free the jurors fur falling. Victim to its it. That's what we're hoping to do is one mind that a time open up people's peoples mine's. If you well and their thinking about the way that they approach the accused in this country, Jimmy simply the trailer regret
Hi Arbitration Flom founder of lava for good podcasting host of wrongful conviction with Jason Flop. True scientific expertise is built through rigorous study and review and is absolutely vital and a court of law when you trace any of these, so called forensic scientists back to their origins. You get a curious origin story, but what happens when one claims to be an expert in a disciplined that isn't based in science at all? They take a course forty hours you're an expert than their testifying all over the country. This is attorney and ass. His project ambassador Josh Tube, in whose name you heard from me and from some of the people who help free we're horror stories and innocent men and women rob their freedom. We will examine how science, in fact, junk science has played a role and mournful convictions, he's the host of the brand new series from lotta for good podcast wrongful conviction, junk science, whether it be bite marks or arson, or blood spatter for one court to accept a quota quote science as valid can lead to the spreading of that science. Much like a virus across the criminal justices. Josh interviews, actual experts who can shed light on just how dark things can be american criminal legal system. How is it that you could have multiple expert witnesses make that fundamental at a different finding with the same evidence? Why was it ever accepted as reliable because it worked? You know the criminal justice system is an efficient eating, killing machine of largely poor people of color and whatever facilitates that process is going to be used, is on course admit it, wrongful conviction, junk science coming to this feed August. Third, find it wherever you listen upon chemists. I knew this podcast tune it with you guys, gonna be disturbing, but it's it's more disturbing. My thoughts
I got never, would have imagined that all those things were bullshit. I never would have imagined that you have you asked me like. You, should give me a pop quiz. A good will is bite. Science. Go to my care, you bite the teeth, salty, throw all teeth are up. He could tell his blood. Spider. I sort of thing you had a guy with a hammer. Blood's platters what about arson? Guess here these? They figure out words lit somehow their fuckin really good at it forty hours, you go to school, forty hours correspondence course. This is crazy. The fact that there's all these people in jail for all these different things, a common Todd, Willingham rest in peace was executed by the State of Texas in arson case where his three children all died, and you know in and these seed owed his this woman, wonderful advocate who had befriended immolation prison got a hold of the top fire expert in the world, the guy from England who has like over a hundred patents, invented everything in, and he proof
moved all twenty of the prosecutions theses were were wrong, it had to be an electrical. Which is what it was. Nothing happens to those people. No, no, no and Governor Perry Oversight and he actually really rail rent ram that, through that execution and its awful it it's just it. It's got to be that story. The Cameron Todd Willingham story kills me, though it's for me Joe. It goes back to the same thing you can. I hate bullying. I hate people who are in vulnerable positions being abused, any former fashion. This is the most serious form, obviously when their letter of their freedom and their life is at stake, and we hope we touch. I know we don't have forever warlike talked you forever. I love to, but you know me:
incarceration? Is it I'll keep Goin men loves. You want to stay here where work deal. I did wonder if it's gonna get off for dinner. If it's a hook, you do yeah. Listen, we can progress crying again, it's to thirty eight, as we speak, so we'll get you over dinner, but I do. If I, if you don't mind, I would love to do is put it should have a shame, was plug out there because this bullying thing bothers me, so much that I wrote a children's book about it with my mother daughter, Alison once called LULU as a right nostrils, and it's about my bulldog lulus, actually not a bulldog analyses, arenas, trap, Annabelle dogs, body and its about her struggle to find love and exceptions where a world in a world where she's judged by her physical appearance said it was in her heart basically trying to teach kids it. It's ok to be different. It's not oak and its end its. In the end of the day. Of course she prevails at first. She endures ridicule and bullying, and I equally eight bullying, but I have alternative perspective on boiling. I think it's a natural part of animals is a natural part.
Of finding weakness in systems, and I think there is a way to fix it, and I think the way to fix it is very counter. Intuitive is to teach people how to fight and to teach kids fight very young, so they never even think about bullying. So these in thanks to fry weaknesses in in these systems is societal system systems of friends and and systems of communities. Instead, you You find them in yourself. You find them through combat, find them through martial arts education. Can we pause on more mass incarceration from minute, because just you just like the my I got, the chills just now begin as you know, as has a guy that manages professional prize fighters. You know I have in an eight year old son- and I told you a type one diabetes and I knew as soon as he got diagnose. He was close to us and birthday he's gonna get far too it impact on.
Because he was an insolent pomp on his arm, but before that I am I had this idea that my wife's adjourned, the Canadian, so took him to Lennoxes. Boxing can Lennox loses Box and cabin Jamaica when he was six right before he got diagnose them. Life was like. Why I want him to learn to fight. I said no, that's wrong because had I known to fight better You know I would once more fights of what I got picked out a little bit, but I I was in you know like, eventually felt like to teach myself to fight, or else I was gonna get my asketh right now, and so I've been teaching him and Lennox teaches them and Andrea Ward teaches them- and I always have this tension, but I I tell my wife, like I think it's the right things long as it's taught the right way. You use it to defend yourself because as soon as someone Fox who do and you fight in a way where you put that you
that fire out very quickly. You're, not gonna, get followed. That's one way, but I really think it should be universal. I think it prevents bullies programme stem from being boys. I think part of why people are bullies because there and secure and is a natural inclination to find weakness fund. It's another people. It's also one of the reasons why you find weaknesses. Other people is because you don't want to see weakness in yourself and you see it and other people. He recognized it, and you pointed out- and you pick on it it's a weird part of humans and I recognized very early on that I hated being picked on and I moved around allow when I was a kid. I wasn't a big kid and I realise when what high school to Snoop was like Ireland, our fight Do a martial arts and the- first thing that I really first of all, it changed me it because I became a much more, easier going person, my usually get along with my insecurities faded away, because now, instead of
being constantly worry that someone's gonna pick army and beat me up. I was fighting so I was always worried about like trained opponents and like regular life. Stuff was nothing it faded away like all my anxiety about groups of people and in dealing with other guys like it and went away because my I fear, was really getting kicked in the face in Ohio and a tournament, and I was gonna be in two weeks time. Like TAT was my real. Came a real thing and also like who I was like. I call down in this like radical way, because all of my energy was being exerted in the gym, or it is in the martial arts school. I changed, and I realize, like really really on, like kids, need to learn how to fight, because fighting is a part of being a person. It's probably, too are wings part of being a person, physical conversations, partly in person. It shouldn't be short and certainly shouldn't hit people, but it's always happen from the beginning of time. Best way to prevent it is too,
let everyone know how to do it. Like Marshall Artist, trained Marshall orders are some of the kindest nice people they don't want to bully. People they want to test themselves in China's themselves, but the ones who want to bully people they give I can read it out now: listen man! I could every piece Ask me all the time or what's Lennox like what's oughta relies on. Nice is actually not only the nicest guys, the most deep feeling, sensitive in secure in some ways healthy, insecurities dinner, If you know these are too bad motherfuckers. Yet I I couldn't grew the more like I think the Mme actually has helped with bullying and I'll. Tell you how I watched Sebastian mosquitoes bit it radio city musical. My wife took me out a huge fan.
Good bogeyman? What ass a mark of fuckin love that do so he has this bit. I'm sure you heard a worries like man frightens different now you know how wonderful forget these Emma may guys will rap you up and that'll be the end of it, and I think that they're probably gives bully like I said I thought short lived till I find out that you can't fight Renault and they start fuck. That's the inverse problem. Is psychology of really think that even them, even the boys themselves, like that's where its counter to active jetty, bullies, how to fight rigidity Not if I they wouldn't do it, they would get, would get out. Other system there'd be better people at the levers, and now he put out really verse psychology, not just reading the issue of Jos right every fighter that I know that was a great success for professional fighter is
deep thinking, navigate that I want to go so far and and idealism, but they are so warm sensitive, sweet human blood to be good. You have to address all things you have to address your own insecurities Rome problems, your flaws, you have your dress, everything. Will you know the thing up this there's a difference in strikers versus grab, where's the differences in strikers, physical Ashby sir, considerably more important there there. Physical attributes and speed in power there so significant, because if you don t someone how throw punches correctly, the people there, speed in power, a lot of them they're just born fast and powerful. They have great bodies when you you have a giant advantage guys with pillow fists. They only go so far. You have you you can't of it. If you can hit a guy two or three times, and we must do- is hit you once he can absorb those two or three times and hit you, but in I'm pulling. It doesn't work that way and grappling technical it's almost
entirely technical, like even me, as a black below two hundred pounds. If I grapple another black belt. That's a hundred fifty pounds. They can tap me out regular I know, a multiple friends that are what's more than me that are better than me that and tat me out, because its technique is everything and so You could try and also you gotta, get your going to get humiliated and tapped, but you could do it over and over and over again, when you get punched in the head, you can only get punched in the head a couple of times a month. What really rocks you can get tat, you can get stand a little, but I mean dropped and you can only do that. So often, are you gonna fuckin, permanent brain damage under pursue can get arm barred multiple times a day, so you get bold you you recognize what it's all about, and then you learn these valuable lessons. You learn learn valuable lessons as far as technique as far as martial arts, but also
of who you are as a human. You you'll learn that you can overcome. You learn that you can get better. You learn that you can improve, you learn all of the different pathways, and where are you went wrong and why you got caught, and then you find that same pathway again, you recognize it coming, you stop. It use the proper defence and you learned get better. You feel better gives you, a lesson that improves your human potential eggs. You understand that through these struggles, better at every cent. Yet you know you know what I gotta say: not the sound broke. Do she about it, but I gotta say when I started lifting weights and getting physically stronger Pauline College, when asserts take it really seriously, I dont that I would have had this may sound dumb, but I know, as a matter of fact, that I would not have had the emotional string to stand up
the judges and the powers that be the old like. I do because struggled I struggled because I struggled because it was a self confidence thing and when I got fired equally stronger on the most I know what you're saying right when I got physically stronger a lot of my insecurities about getting fucked with a personally and physically faded and for me to stand up, not phenomena fighter prosecutor, but for me to know in a purely physical world. There is no match. I know it thereby does something for you psychologically to be able to stand up and say you know to be able to say you're, not fucking, doing anything I mean in the coma inclement these case at one point, the cop every time me, in the judge got loud. The cop would put it in the transcript the key. Would put his hand and rested on his gun, and this Probably not the right move, but I said what is he doing right on the right now? You should do I said, and what is he doing every time I make a forceful argument, your honour, your
having your gun and he goes like this do in any, I said now your hands off your gun, but I dont know without getting myself like an eye off They felt that managing professional fighters, the best professional fighters wanna, be some some. We Do she lawyer right wanted them. So the first thing that I did I got into a tournament, and am your tournament! In London, strain me for the tournament worked. My corner and I made it all the way to the semi finals of this. It was like a programme tournament and he like you do in great doing great. I won for fights and Earl of twenty nine and he said get cocky, though this and round the semi files I square up to my hands and what might die now and I got hit so hard in the sternum earned the right here that a crack forward and I was in the corner. Lennoxes, like you go down
in the last round because you're, not quick tulip, would meet in Europe. What it's her head to dance allows around and they, in the end it was crazy because from that point forward you know but I didn't even know how dumb I am that my ribs extended that far and that point on my relationship with him changed. It really did He started relying on me for more stuff. I mean I was letting you a guitar. I yelled up a really did change and just up the poet the postscript here you know the most the sweetest most sensitive guy is MIKE Tyson out. I want to try something in as well, because at taking up I'm here but you said Joe, the theirs. Exonerate based in New Orleans named, dug the llosa who have developed a tremendous French
with over the years, he was rather convicted of murdering his wife and sense life in prison. As she wrote his own proceed motion, which means written by the ready, incarcerated person himself and it was granted by the fifth circular. The only person ever do that and was freed after fourteen years and couple years ago. Speaking because we talk all the time goes. He does a lot of work, helping other exonerates get back on their feet and we work together on that. And he found a really down and those what's wrong. I was like: what's wrong goes man, my grandson issues gave his grandson. Mason is getting brutally bullied at school. You know each day broke his classes. They threw him dogmas there is in this and that nose like have you thought about take. Two martial arts said I had really thought about that ensure enough. He took his granddaughter martial arts, and now he sends me pictures he's got this belt. He's got that belt. He's got the other belt and just like you said Joe is it. I mean I've never met the kid, but I'm a lotta respect form because he's taken the initiative and
he's doing great and he's gonna have a better life exactly as you said, civically, because of that, and I I just wanted to shout him out on the air, because I encourage so often minimal, broken record, but a really encourage jujitsu, because Jujitsu you're not getting hit, I think, that's one of the most important things you you? Don't you not you not to worry about brain damage? Brain damage is real. I have seen twenty people that get it, and when you are involved in striking you only have so many holes that you can punch on that ticket. You know and and everybody's tickets different. Some people can go a long time like we're. Talking works on the phone today he's great. He sounds amazing, he's gotta, he is clear, headed, replace chess. He speaks, eloquently he would totally, particularly as no issues whatsoever with his life. Career as a World Championship heavyweight boxer, but does not always there, there's a lot of people and have like significant problems when they never, go anywhere as an amateur. You know,
It's I've seen him. I was real unpopular too with Lennox, because after he fought Vitaly Klich girl You know I was young the new guy on his team. I don't go with them for a few fights. After that court case, I ended up co managing him and after the political fight his tin, he didn't habit in many more. I knew enough to know that he just was done with it and There was a lot of money on the table for a clear goal: rematch, unless I would say to you, don't this should anymore because I saw him stumble one dime walking. A corner in hotel and ass a man I said I won't stay on your team until you get an mri and I got threaten, I got fucked with by people
You know my became a dear friend of mine. Like I like an uncle Emmanuel. Stuart would call me I've at least they come on. Just one more fight said all takes his more more fight. I reckon shame Mosely represent a tear voluntary nor us against the king, terrible example- and you know shit, To this day, we I see relationship because after the patio fighter said Jane, you need this anymore and features listen to his speech. I love the guy's beautiful, but I think that he's been hurt. Terry's is most certainly been hurt? I remember a rented Terry add a boxing event and I didn't like physically right. I was there, he was there and I was watching him talk to someone and I was stunned, and this is a long time ago it this was fields Trinidad was fighting. Someone else was in Vegas and Terry was in the audience, and I remember listening to talk. It was awful and it was so bad. He was
I represent him against on king, it made it. Jerry trial and He was diagnosed with dementia pugilistic o, which is just a fancy way to say brain damage, and I gotta tell you he would hysterically weep when the doktor would get on the stand. Explain the extent of his brain injury and a few years after the trial I mean he spent Thanksgiving at my house, are we really took him in and became very, very close? We won the case, rule beg, and he forgot forgot, who I was. As at one point, just its heartbreaking to watch a really is now. Some brutal fights man, some brutal, brutal brew, fights remember when he fought Julian Jack's mad Julian Jackson. Crack he's hawk, he had what he was those guys with weird power right like David. Like normal, punches, but people just
does that happened in the Mme there's something about the talk of the punch, some some! It's it's a lot. There's a lot of factors. It's weird! It's so hard to figure out some guys. You look Adam and go. Of course he can it hardly the fuck and build on what Thyssen right you look at me. Oh Jesus, but what I loved him well No, first of all with him, it's on a one punch thing: it's an accumulation of punches in his technique is flawless, but I've heard I heard fresher. I've heard from a lot of people that have been hit by him, Kurdish Stevens right. He said man I said you look so surprised on the camp. He looked up he's a man, I never hit when anything that hard and my fuckin like there's a lot of factors you know there's, also physiological factors like we're. Talking about that. You can't change like using George Foremans hands like the fuckin hams. It's like a bowling ball. The end of a log he's got these crazy hand. Lennoxes had asked enormous those guy,
these have bigger power, there's just no offence or buts about its guys with smaller hands, there's no way they're gonna be able to hit his heart. It's like having a sledge hammer. First is having a carpentry finnish hammer. Users there's a there is some be role for Asia. The world, I don't feel, and all bashful about plugging something after you look up you're like a professional plug machine. It's very effect. I don't blame you for, but I was just going to say so I don't feel nationals who have in Turkey memory coming out about Lennox called tough love. Untold story right. It was in the Tri back a film festival and at the end. I have this awesome footage of Thyssen being asked by, I think, Joe, was interviewing him fat YO. Sir he's got this. I guess this web Syria eyes do. Last of now. As you know, my intergroup so fat Joseph who's, the horrors you ve ever been hit by and he wept Lennox. He said
man no contest, just Lennox, a guy would would fuckin hit people and they would like you know. If he had so many legal lights out, people just one might say that it was the housing rock Monetary Mouselike cause. You know the first fight, had been stopped quickly and this can fight in. He was on a different level here. He was on a different level in he should have won the first fight, but for whatever reason he got caught and then the second fight man, you could tell he was out for blood and when he lands at knock out below- and you see rock monotonous back like that was like the most textbooks one to oversee. It was so sweet his sweet, but he's such a big guy to you get that torture, the shoulders there's something. But broad shoulders, guys like those ponderously like Tommy earns him when they get that force now apply in full extension and Lennoxes fuckin enormous he's in his head
the crazy athlete people realize I he could play basketball Trips homers feed a little, but I used to give my son pig he so big, but he could play basketball. But you do you talk about bullying I mean the guy. You would have to really really push him, but if you push him in you cross the line. Fuckin run That's because there is the problem with nice, guys that are enormous. You know decades will fuck with them even Andrei. He was a guy that will look to get his get back. If you hit em in the ring, almost always get a mean shriek up and all for sure. If I ever get Tugela boxing arrival convictions without mentioning Reuben Hurricane Carter right because that's a long time ago, but the little goblins Slippery Darwin Slippers lot of people, think he did it yeah there are the villain didn't like. Not only did Bob Dylan not think it, but the movie that they made about him with
Denzel, Washington left out a lot of shit, not just left out a lot of shit added a lot of shit. They created a lot like the cop that was chasing them, though, that bad cop that wasn't real They didn't. I was. That was what they call a composite, actually, not all stories, I'm learning from its unfortunate he I don't know what he did. What he didn't do is a fantastic fighter, but he was definitely hanging around some bad people. He d family was involved. Some bad shit weather committed murder like the movie left out friends lass that he was two important things, my that he was actually let out between his first and second trial and was put back in four beating up a girl and then the other thing is that when they found I pulled him over. They found
either the same gun or bullet casings that were in the murder, of course, there's a lot of shit that was left its hard. That's a hard one. You know when he got out, you did do a lot of work to helping other people and five I'm working now in the case of an innocent guy in Washington, state name, a tea for a Faye was convicted of murdering his whole family, and I was the last case. Had Hurricane Carter actually worked on so I didn't want to leave that hanging. Why it's wonderful that he great things when you got a minute, don't- and I dont know if you, killed your? Not whether we now it will never known our, but I do know that the case for the two sides is not does not at some clean give you a better one, a better box in cases, Dewey, Mozilla or You'Re- doing Mozilla credible incredible. Ah, this is like who I don't know as the rights I should ask doing, but Dewey was indeed for what thirty year you worth, and while I helped him when he got out and was
Dewey was a guy that was frame for a murderer in Poughkeepsie and He became a legend in prison in the prison boxing system. He was the prison champion, they actually had a penal boxing league. A thing at sing sing and he was just there is so when he, when he got out, he did twenty six years, so he got out. He was fifty four and he fought one pro fight. I saw the air I remember that so what would do Jos, I would try to get so berries. Call me and told me about him. He knew my connection, a box, so he's fifty four here. Yes, fifty four look at a tunnel in saying that saying he Actually you someone who I don't have much respect for put him on his card out here and allay. I wanted mention his name and got the Lisi. Did that and they got him one fight, but when Dewey was about to get out bears
a call me and said: listen do you have some one in New York a pro boxer, We could have a meet where they would really boost, and so is the weak did he got out. I had actually add at the time I was managing Polly Monarchy and Polly come meet with Dewey Polly was real enamoured with the work I was doing it. The innocents project and Polly actually took Dewey under his wing and we flew him up to Pollys rematch with one ds up in Chicago and really got him in the dressing room gotta behind the scenes in a really really boost, Cinemas, especial dude, and let the the dewy when he was in prison, met the guy who was convicted of care. Thing to his own son, Obviously he could have destroyed the guy, but he forgave him right. I mean that's nasturtium echoes back. I think there was yours talkin about to an extent you're right, because here's, a guy who's, got off the power in the world inside the prison and could obliterate. This guy and instead-
he chose to you, know: Keep it move in and out. I don't even know where that kind of grace comes from, but I mean I want a quick. I myself ass beside the point. One thing: from J Prince who, by the way, is probably the the smartest negotiator, business man. He would be a fascinating dude free two speeches is set up by the hee hee. Hee has taught me that these days trainers really know like, like Virgil Hunter. France. Any longer word he's like Yoda. In others. He doesn't know. The manual steward Hu Jia Manual actually help me get someone out of prison in Detroit Brill all men. This this is fucking crazy manual work, his arm Matt Manual such a fascinating guide me use, like you know that this quote about him when he died by this guy mark brood. Now in the Detroit Free Press, he said, he loved the stake
and he would never he dined with pretty women and cops with corrupt politicians and police, chiefs. He never could, deny someone would their hand out and he used bad language, but none front of women and children manual is like this Detroit Slick stir. I never knew the full reach of of his star his brow, shining star in Detroit and one night? How is it dinner with very shack he's tell me this case of this guy Walter Swift, who is in jail for somebody, didn't do and how he couldn't get the district attorney to pay attention to whom he, like, Like all hell marry you may eroto, I wrote an article about it in Ring magazine greater, that I'll send you and he loves this sum. He lobby this question amaze ignore any one big in Detroit I said I know manual stored, he's like worth a shot so called the manual, I sent him an article about the case.
And a manual was like he was like, like it His next pro fighter that he was gonna, groom into a champion, would not let go this case. He wrote a letter to the Parole Board and our recalling the manual to tell the manual that Walter was getting out in there also two theories floating around, because a manual knew the prosecutor. She had been a patron of his restaurant when he had a restaurant in Detroit, so he not accept me not taking him to the exoneration hearing, and I remember I got to Detroit the middle of the night, and a manual insist that I stay at his house and he goes to the exoneration hearing when me the next day, and it was like women and children and end the bailiffs and cord officers come on up to make and I get a picture. Can I give you a hug? We get the court room. The judge takes the bench hits the gavel
she looks out into the crowd and she says that a manual steward sitting my courtroom very first thing. She says and stanza, bald all all dignified and inerneys. Handsome duty said: yes, your honour in he said a man, because it is indeed a manual Stuart and I'm here on behalf of Walter Swift and she while. It is a pleasure to have you in my courtrooms when he sat down. I thought to myself he really Lee is all that you hear about him in Detroit and then Walter gets out and he's like shell shocked- and annual comes up. Any grabs is garbage back from him with all belongings, and we, get into a manuals chair he read Mercedes and I'm thinking to myself like the fuckin I redemption and that's how it went down Walter Swift, got out of jail and rode away from there
penitentiary in style, The manual steward ass, like this is this is something and I have always tried to get boxers Maybe you could help? What am I may fighters involved? I was thought there was something synergistic about the innocents project. The wrongful incarceration cause. It's a fight to get them out. Why think, there's a lot people that no, the people are wrongfully convicted, but they dont know exactly what to do, and I dont know what, if anything, they can do to help. You know and I why one things we could do with this package is provide some avenues, that people can help and I would love to be loved, I would love to help more I'd love to it. What would it cases you have the youth you think are legitimately list. Let's get people Let's talk about: what's, let's see whatever the meanest brainstorm see what other ways we can help you. I will give you some links to not only whether it petitions signing up for the innocents project newsletter. You know, keeping
your voice out by writing your governor, parole, board politicians and we can do the various ways that people in their communities can help- and I know your children at the bit to talk wrongful incarcerate I mean mass incarceration yeah, I'm so glad you brought that object, because there are things that people can do this by making their voices heard, and we need every body because this could happen to you could happen to somebody. You love, I mean you know one thing: so can until it does, but it dies and it happens all day every day courtrooms around this country and the prisons are filled with people in all who are actually innocent of the cries for which they were convicted, in fact, even the odds, recently by the now, because I can't leave out Christina curlers case. I'm working on in Vegas of a woman has been wrongly accused of shaking her baby to death and at the top for it come on top
export marriage. Azure referred me to value Randy petty glass. She wrote the book unshaken baby syndrome who looked into this case for me and came back. We and basically what an email saying. It is a certainty that nothing was done to this child. The poor child had a brain. Those Why is the normal size and suffered from sexual sellers while in those factors are what? unfortunately led to his demise and now they wanna in a locker up for the rest of her life, for something that she didn't do and still, even with this evidence, even with the one I don't know, they don't know that we know that now thing, but hopefully this is going to come out and I think now we have, as we have the Arizona innocence project looks like they might get involved. There's she's going have a wonderful team and if they decide to take it to court, I am optimistic that justice be done, how they will had this one offered to pass a caesar we are thinking about you and they biggest connection. I just had to bring that up before we
and into the other, by the conversation about mass incarceration goes at the end of the day that the underlying problem with all this and, of course, as I said, we will put petitions they we can put the links. Your bio May. We put them on your instagram or whenever there are a lot of ways for people to help. Even if you want to talk about their dug the LOS Angeles Times before the plenary of this organisation, the first seventy two plus. If people want to go to the beach just first, number seventy two plus peel: U s dot org! If you want to donate to help examiner ease, get back on their feet, We are coming out of the system. That's great to do it, it's a wonderful organization. They do great work and its so important that we give these people could. Even though The Duke of Compensation Josh knows better than anyone he's. Does civil laws well on many happy whereas, but that it takes years and they come out to nothing come out to like a world, they don't know there are no, they haven't. Maybe the streets for twenty thirty years or more and at the end of the process,
of getting started again is so so dont And so if people want to look at their hearts and help on that level, that's a simple thing you can do, but go to innocence, project that Org for sure I mean then than there'll- be steps you can take there. Of course, world will talk more about that, but I did want to, Hi John Mass in cars, nation as a whole, because at the end of the day we have a system where we lock people up at a higher rate. Capital than any country in the history of the recorded world. There wasn't always like this. In America, prison population has gone up. Seven hundred percent in the last thirty five forty years with no benefit the public safety, none and every aspect of it is is cruel. Every aspect of it is unusual right and other country: does it this way,
and so when you look it inside the numbers right. We have four point four percent of the world's population, but we have twenty five percent of the world's prison population. So why is that our Americans, worse than other people, Now that we have a higher crime rate than other countries now, is there any benefit to this policy? No, does it cost a fortune keep this thing going, ass tat spares everyone's paying for you'd listening right now, you're paying for every and paste for this bloated system I can call broken because it works. The way was designed which is in which is as a lever to control people. Mostly poor people, mostly people of color. We lack the in this. This detail it sounds crazy to me even when I say it, but I know it's true. We lock black people up in America at six times the rate of South Africa, the height of apartheid. So
we have thirty three percent of the world's female prison population. Thirty three percent: what in the world are we doing and it costs Zealand eighty billion dollars is that total incarceration more or less budget in this country? Eighty billion, that's a huge business a lot of? It is really a tax on the poor and it functions as a way to keep. Poor communities, poor and desperate, and that's what it does it by over criminalizing these people by not investing in resources that can actually help those communities, but instead cycling in a prison. You know inside those numbers Joe. We talked about seven hundred thousand or potter S every year, mostly again, people of color, even though they dont use drugs at a higher rate than white people, do in fact the most They show that they use them at a lower rate. If I are you how many people are jailed in America every year? We call these jail churn right and it's
porn. Does God this now cause of covert? Because now Harvard Study came out yesterday, showing that this is a. This is a real thing right. Eleven to twelve million people are arrested and jailed, at least for a short period of time in America every year. Eleven the twelve million and those people forgetting all the other problems with it in this time of carbon. Go in and out and they bring the disease with them, as do the People who work inside the jails in prisons write them in this bread. In the past as is well known now, of course, spreading there's nowhere to social distance in a prison cell or at a prison environment, and of course it is the workers that go in and out, not just the guards but D. You know religious people that their social workers, the p, who work in all different aspects of the present maintenance. Whatever so there's
I'll I'll stop talking in a second. But the fact is: there's a guy who Sunday will get to be on your shown him ally, carpet. Scientists was the author of a book, call usual cruelty, which is like my bible now and it as is usual cruelty by how like a car, could sign as he's got organization called civil Rights car, and he been suing cities in countries all over the country to eliminate cash bell, because cash bail is at root of a lot of these problems. Also, so Money Bell has existed since you know that matter leaves a thousand years since Bell was invented wherever there was a long time ago, but bill historically was an unsecured was an and Secured bond right, which meant that they feel safe, You're, not they wanted to charge people if they didn't show for trial right so, but that what that men as if you were rested and yours supposed to show up in court, if you didn't show up, they would send you a bill right
in eighteen, ninety, nine, it changed and people realize it actually started in San Francisco. Strangely enough, which is now actually leading the charge in the other direction. But in eighteen ninety nine, they decided to start charging people up front, so you had deposed Bell money to be free until your trial Now this obviously affected one group of people, poor people right because, and yet we always see that mug shouts of celebrities right when they arrested in their smiling right because they their lawyers wait knows. I too take him to a lobster dinner or whatever their they're gonna go do, and but what happens is that soon enough and Alec taught me a lot of this stuff. Soon enough, it became clear that This could be an incredible profit centre right that charging people for their own freedom. It's a bill, you you can't afford, not to pay, but if you can afford to pay it
go to jail so then emerge this bail, bonds, industry, rape, which is now a multi billion dollar industry. Thou works is, if you are poor, you can't afford to post Balfour yourself some. Come along and save you give me, percent of the money non refundable, weather innocent guilty, whether your charges are dropped in an hour, doesn't matter. Give me that money I keep it. I posed the rest, which usually don't, even do exist and understanding, and you can go home now. If you don't do that, think about the consequences right, so you're picked up for anything shop lifting could be mistaken? Identity could be any crime at all any or any minor thing. Misdemeanours make up a huge percentage of the jail population most commonly it's just driving splendid licence. That's the most common cause of arrest, I think, and in most places in America driving was suspended, licence and they're gonna
you in jail cell, they deprive you of contact with your family, of your ability to work of your ability to take on, walk of your ability to avoid violence that may occur to you when you're in that cell of all different types. And your very like your very life will be at risk, and so, if you don't if you don't have the money to to avoid that, you are now going to be subjected to being in jail. We have about point fifty thousand people in jail. America right now we're sitting here. We don't know their did anything them dry. Eighty percent of people in jail have never had a trailer and they could sit there for a week a month, year several years awaiting trial and that I most of them will plead guilty within about three point. Two days is the average time, but some will plead guilty if their India, whereas if they're out unthinkable,
this too right, if you're out, you don't plead guilty, you waiting. You got me day in court and it all it deprives you of the ability to defend yourself right let's say you are accused of attacking somebody ripe and beating somebody whatever we, whatever might be right. And you're in jail, because you Campos Bell. You can't me your lawyer, they don't have time to come busy you in jail, you can't get them on the phone readily can't take your lawyer to the scene of the crime to show the decree You couldn't have been there because or whatever or the witness couldn't see new, because the lights or whatever it is. You have no ability to mount an effective defence. If you in jail, which is why ninety six. Ninety seven per cent of football. Now I'm stalking felonies, but ninety six felony conviction this country are the result of guilty pleas because people realized they can't fight it and they can of sit in jail, could take a look, their job, they could lose their home takeovers.
Family if they dont. If they don't either either put up the money which they don't have or or plead guilty, so this is. This is a problem that is being addressed. Like I said, Alec one has been winning lawsuits all their country because it is a violation of the sick and the fourteenth amendment. You can't call of equal protection if two different people are charged with the exact same thing, but the one with money goes home in the world without money goes to jail, such a beautiful way. Put it in so so clear, because I've been seeing people talk about. Different progressives. They want to get rid of cash bail and Howard, Nicholas. That is, and what you're saying makes total sense, and I've never seen it laid out like that before, and I didn't although there were that many people that are in jail for things and they can't post as you know the money- and so they just have to wait The trial and what percentage of did you say what percentage of em are or what?
what percentage of people to get arrested, can't post bail I don't. I see no, that percentage, but I think it's very high, because most people don't how we look up. Most Americans don't have more than four hundred dollars and free cash, child and watch how this works. If you ever want to be, if you have a really want to see the inequities here and see how the system is so fucked up go sit. You could do it a number, Obviously not now one when the world resumes some sense. Normalcy go to any criminal court. Watch the arraignments right and if you will watch the arrangements. You will see. Parade in all of the arrest ease of the last twenty four hours and day. Read their charges and They will then set bail that will make a decision on bail your you'll know, just two or three things: one young, notice that the vast majority of people in any
certainly in any urban jurisdiction in any big city or people of color, and I sat recently watching this happen in temper Florida, I was working on the James Daily case. They did arraignments before my hearing, and I sat with a bunch of public defenders- and I listened to them- wins Ray time, someone of color young person of color was brought in driving on a suspended licence. Possession of marijuana possession of hygiene co down without a prescription and they set their bill. A thousand ten thousand seven thousand and they would well that person's going get out or they say. If you don't, going to- let you out, but if you don't pay a fine of one thousand five hundred dollars within sixty days, you're back in I'll help and I'll, be representing him again and you watch, Jason. Put it this churn machine, you watch how these people of color are treated
very differently from white defendants, and you You can just assess, based on the fact that the judge will said you currently have a job know. Where are you living? Well, I don't know I'm going to stay on someone's couch and you start to quickly be able to do the computation you're, my war. They come up with a thousand dollars or five hundred dollars and then re, offend and end up right now where they were and what it will really be striking to you is that I would I would venture to say in the high eighties. A percentage these people, what they really need is help with addiction and if we put of the money that we spend, incarcerating people, keeping them incarcerated on dry and alcohol rehabilitation, Thee incarceration rate, would plummet. And the recidivism rate, you know people, the offending would plummet
And not only we don't have to hypothesize. That's in fact what happens? It happens in countries that you know decriminalize drugs and happens in countries where there is not such an emphasis on jailing, people and there's more of an emphasis on getting them help and your question: just looked it up physicists and we're going to quote from the bug usual cruelty again by Alex markets on us tween. Eighty and ninety percent of the people charged with crimes are so poor that they cannot afford a lawyer twenty five years into american incarceration boom. Black people were incarcerated rate six times that of South Africa during Apartheid incarceration rate for black people and nations capital where I live is nineteen times that of white people and its it still those on every day and the internet benefit. This is where there is no net benefit. Society, in fact, has been proven universe in Pennsylvania. Their control centre did a study that show that people they studied but who were jailed or freed for this
acting prime into these extreme circumstances right and this one posted beyond that when couldn't, and they found that the people we went to jail even if it for as little as a few days were fully. Thirty percent more likely to be arrested for another felony suing year. So because their lives fall apart, while they're in jail and then the other guy said they lose their job. You catch not show up for work for a few days and be like I was in jail, you know, so you know. If I could, I'm just going to read the first paragraph of the book cuz. This really, I think, puts him in stark contrast. Tell people the book as the book is called usual cruelty by Alec car Catana switches care are a K t essay, and I asked kind of tongue twister, and so the Bookstore on January. Twenty six two thousand fourteen show now Mitchell was sitting on her couch with her one year old daughter on her lap and her four year old, Saunders, side, armed
women agents entered her home. Put her in metal restraints, took her from her children at bottom. To that, my country count Montgomery City, jail, jail staff, silent turned page, just have told shower now that she owed the city money for old traffic tickets. The city had privatized the collection of her death to a for profit, probation company, which had sought a warrant for her arrest happened to be sitting in the courtroom on the morning. The sure now was brought to court, along with dozens of other people who had been jailed because they owed the city money judge demanded a sure now pay or stay in jail if she could I pay, should be kept in a cage until she quote, sat out her deaths at fifty dollars per day or so five dollars per day? Is she agreed to clean the courthouse bathrooms and the feces blood and mucus from the jail walls, an hour later in windowless cell Chanel told me that a jail guard had given her a pencil, and she showed me the crumbs court document, on the back of which she had calculated. How many more weeks of
forced Labour separated from her children. That day she became my foot, Client has a similar rights fire. So you know that's that yet we have this mythology in America that the people in jails are bad people a lot of them were there just cause their poor, other reason that show no Mitchell or all these other people are there, except they couldn't pay their traffic tickets. And what are you you? Don't? We talk about single parents right. What do you do when you're single parent have a choice between feeding your kids or paying a traffic ticket or whatever it might be? These are not bad people and the idea that we send like more or less like a swat team to the home of this woman to pull her away from our kids. What kind planet is too, is there were that's ok, but its it happens in darkness right it does. We will see that right now, there's always wherein is being brought to you. Lloyd and the rest of this stuff, which is really important, and I'm so glad
it's coming to light and people are starting to you Know- really rise up, as one great has is as one group as humans. Not as black people are white people were or any other kind of people, but together, but stuff happens under it under the shade of darkness, where we don't see we don't see what happens in the jails and prisons. But what happens there in her county we're Alec when this suit recently in and now this did a wonderful piece on this, but about twenty people year die in the county jail awaiting trial, very the murdered or so thing Sandra Blanda, Imagine our right, and you know we have to just fuckin star I mean this. Is this? Is it it? It's it's on conscience, to me. We have. We have seven million people under the control of the criminal justice system. We have more black people incarcerated right now under control the system then ever had enslaved in any time in U S: history, Jesus Christ.
What is that it's crazy about and the amount of human potential that's lost. It boggles. My mind is probably another Lennox Louis that could have been right. There's another J Z in there somewhere. I asked meat meal when he was on my pie, gas, wrongful conviction. I said how you guys and where did you meet in jail and could have been another you and he said I can't even tell you he goes so many talented people on their that just you know that comes down near them in so and I think that that is part of the reason why Wrongful Commission happened because the system is so overburdened are so many cases this that the courts cannot possibly function correctly. When there's this, much churn and people just become process, people become numbers to be processed in and out of the system. These cases and in text we're taking about five seconds, the bail hearings, five to six seconds and allowed lawyer nor allow this
anything you're defence on you, gotta watch the weight happens Joe. You watch and it's all video, that's all recorded so we're in fact we are watching them before we came in or judge will say here. Your charge is answer me, yes or no. Do you want to call on a court appointed lawyer yeah again you can answer me? Yes or no. I just said yeah. No, I a yes or a no yes! Well, when I asked you yes or no. What didn't you understand about that? Well, I said yeah. Now your bills, dull, two thousand dollars. You know they fuck would people these white judges fucking. Would people of color? Let it don't matter, and you know- it's interesting because you probably sitting here thinking you know is so overwhelming me. No, it is its overwhelming what the fuck can be done about it what can we do about it, but we have no choice, but to fight back and mobilise and weather That means you know.
Putting pressure on local. Politicians or, dare I say, run for office yourself. We need people they care. We need people that will big truth to power by stand not for the people that are being oppressed than this country's cliches. That sounds, you know you, you're sitting here horrified by a few stories. You know each one is me, heartbreaking than the next and when you actually see how it works and action and you live it with these people, no, it changes. You fundamentally changes you as a human being I can only imagine that mean I've never heard it laid out as well as you guys were, laying it out, and I think most people listening. This probably are going to agree Dayton. It date they knew but they didn't know you know and it leave you with this overwhelming feeling of of helplessness like Besides running for office, what can be done?
I mean we. We obviously need to change some laws. We obviously need for first of all conviction and arrest of people for non violent drug offences is fucking insane. It's insane and it's a giant part of the entire problem. The fact did you can arrest people for traffic tickets and leave them in a cage, separate them from their children? That's fucking in saying that all these things are immoral. The fact that, we're supposed to be the shining beacon of of democracy and civilization in this country to joke. When you look at our criminal justice system as you guys of late it out, I don't want you to feel helpless, though, and I don't want you listeners to feel, helpless and hears why the way that I, when I start to feel that way- and I do sometimes I start thinking of the. The strength that you have to have
survive an ordeal like John Receive, O or Clemente Gary or do we d or the countless other people that we have talked about. It is be I believe, to be accused of some Then you didn't deal but to be able to survive in conditions that you know, popularized by movies, but the worst thing that could happen. You in jail often happened to these people and Have the resolve and not be helpless at some point, To overcome that helplessness than I thought gets in all of us to do something in that path is different for different people. Not everybody is gonna, go out and be a civil rights lawyer or creed. Oh justice reform Advocate, but there is some that all of us can do. Politicians don't like to be embarrassed so whether that is writing Ed writing to your local politician, calling the newspapers like on the first episode of wrongful conviction, junk signs, I say look.
Many of you are thinking. What can you do? One thing you can do is, for instance, just dealing with forensic science is right: letters to your local criminal court. Judges find out who they are. You can look online and send them articles about the junk science. A bite mark evidence they're out. There is their fear or their reluctance to change the fact that there are so many cases where that was how they got convicted. That is poor. This is size did they would have to revisit these case. That's part of a part of it is also our laziness and local elections as voters in in many states state court judges are elected So a lot of them are not qualified, and you know What is the answer to that? That's a bigger problem, but think part of it is fear of bucking the system. But one thing we do know people act differently. If no that they're going to be embarrassed, are exposed
the reason why the judge and Clemente case that I told you about that was the judge that wouldn't refuse herself in the trade on more incase, even though her husband had represented George Zimmermann prior she had to get out and the press had to write about it and she got publicly embarrassed into being refused in my case with Clemente the same thing. The paper start covering it in picking it up, and she finally had to give in so it might be an uphill steep uphill climb, but we can either take it right. We neither lay down and take it or get up and fight There is something that all of us can do, and I- and I can tell you Joe, I have seen and when I say that it transformed me as human being. You know how watch the pride of my ten year old daughter, my eight year old son, four year old, doesn't get it yet insane my dad stands up for people. You know my dad, help save his life and too
watch them. You know these people become part of our family. I'm Tellin, you man, I u vibrate to just No that you, u physically saved your life, there is no more gratifying thing in the world. No sporting event. He no no cheap thrill, but a club out with your friends drinking or you know, would have whatever it is. They get your rocks off. I can tell you that If you have warm blood in your body. The reason why wrongful convictions and exaggerations, or so popular as genre on podcast, sir and movies, is because it is that exhilarating to be able. I think that at taps into the best part- of who we are ass. Human beings really cause. I think that are fundamentally good in many ways even know we love to We love to
we sort of celebrate people's downfall. That's also intrinsic in human beings were some odd reason. We celebrate disasters, but we also intrinsically it's in all of us to celebrate the triumph of the human soul. It really is, and I and I feel like the reason it evokes that in us is cuz that is in us, and you know you. You will never find more gratification and being able to look in someone's eyes and say help save his or her life, and forms a bond. Dad is not, comparable to money were, or you know, any kind of material gain, it is just as it is. It is the human experience on the most fundamental level and the best part of the human experience so you know you're listeners were thinking will what can I do, we could never list all the ways, but we
I think we ve given some ideas, and we would strongly encourage. I mean you, don't you never know what one letter will do, climate, De Gary wrote seventy four letters when he was on death row to wild fuckin people, Oprah Oprah, Sally Jesse, red deer, defunct, talk, show host, Morey Poverty, Sally Jesse Raphael, and only one person answered the innocents project nets, to pass on the back. But you know you can right one letter and if it catches you the right persons attention, you can change a life I got another vote because voting it. You know in local races, especially local DA's, races, locally I just races so few people? oh, that your vote literally could be the deciding factor and it will have a ripple effect if they know that you're gonna vote for judges and prosecutors, who do the right thing who want hacked, will justice and not just to win at all costs, like you said before Joe than that,
He's gonna. Make a huge difference: you chase a boot dangerous one in San Francisco by a very tiny, Morgan, less and less than one percent. He has, DE car serrated San Francisco by over fifty percent in less than, six months with no. No, spike in crime, no, nothing right, and so the fact is another people need to be in the first place. He is refusing to prosecute these low level, not Nick crimes. That don't need to be ass, good people that need help. You know, and as has aside to give them a lift up, not brutalize them and put them through this? This church, this miserable system go to goaded, f, m dot or family against men, torments, F, a m m dot org go to First, seventy two plus, if you want to donate to that, go to do policy alliance, DOT, Org, it's an organization, but an abortive forever. That's fighting leading, though, when I called a war against the drug war and is doing such amazing work to help too to take away.
Now that the legal penalties, but also the stigma associated with drugs and don't forget and even in the presidential race right over twenty percent. Federal judges now have been appointed by Trump and no of those judges, the overwhelming majority? Those judges are exactly the ones that we are sitting here talking about they're the ones we don't want on the bench because they could vote my so many more people, many of them have been judged unanimously unqualified by the American BAR Association and their appointing these republic. A reporting, these judges to lifetime ten years in places where there are gonna be failing to see. Hundreds or thousands of cases, so if you know think your vote matters in the presidential election. If all you care about it, you know, if none and other stuff interests you it should interest you in and for the sake of your yourself, your friends, your loved ones. Your children, though,
judges- are going to do a tremendous amount of damage her job I'll bring this right. I'm gonna bring this full circle watch this. I remember seeing a comedy bit that you did. It must have been like two thousand. He said. Two things were supposed to happen by now Papa supposed to be legal, we're off first having jet backs. I remember that did really well so I hope that in ten years or five years or seven years, that we come back and you say well, another thing was supposed to happen by now and it's either happened are beginning to happen. We were supposed to decriminalize, you know low level drug offences, or we were supposed to change this bullshit about price. Is being cops having immunity right We are starting to see that with cops. I can guarantee you that of prosecutors knew that there were wrapper cushions right. That there were
precautions, the hiding evidence Kay, not turning it over to the defence. It happened in want of Kemal Harris's cases. Wasn't it one of her cases where the crime lab will? That was in her case where the crime lies. Had to send the dna and I'll Novo's in California, where the crime lab seas. That the dna doesn't match their friend who talked about how to be a part of it, and I'm glad you brought this up so or the cry. You can tell the story in a second but the crime lab, not the prosecutors, a crime. Lab technician says you know what this is wrong: Dna doesn't match the defendant and I'm sending it to the defence counsel, and what happens is that he gets put back first get out because they realize have the wrong guy, but he could put back. Death row because he got obtain the evidence illegally because it wasn't so hold on. You can tell the story second, but my hope is that we we start to
beat back against the system so that we can come back on here wherever you are, whether on a podcast horribly, your next bid or maybe you'll, have a talk. Show at that point and say you know what I want. I want to do what you do and you will get a match here today. I think we did a really do. Please tell the store, I real, quick, so Anthony upon a vision and again in another thing, Amanda shamelessly bluntly, Amsterdam. It's it's Jason plan because I posed about this to have all the time and I get people has drop our guard for sure rain minds around. So am I upon which this story is just even by my standards, absolutely buck in mind. Blowing right, Anthony upon Lavish was wrong the convicted in Ohio and sends to death he's on death row in Ohio. I think this for thirty five years, when what happened happen, rabies state finally test the dna that they said didn't exist, so tat, came back and showed
he did not commit this crime so that withheld that from the defence so there he is on death row. The state knows noses innocent. They frighten they may have no along now, but somebody I think it was a crime lab technician, whoever it was some you know whistle blower, where we want to call it sent that evidence. The first is the first time we ve heard that kind of story he gets out. After seventeen months. He's a grandfather he's a hemming, the guy's terrific Vista, give you talk to him fall in love, and you want to have on the damn shell and He sent nano lawn with his grey. Children. One day a swat team shows up in a them again. This state appealed his reversal, saying that
Only he technically only he was allowed to request his dna, something in Ohio law right. The person whose wrongfully oars was appealing their conviction has to request the dna themselves, so they he said that they requested the dna. He couldn't use it in his appeal, which technically was correct, and so They are saying you should have requested the dna that we told you doesn't exist and since you didn't we're taking it to the higher costs and the higher court was left with no choice but to follow me and I guess they had no choice. They followed the letter of the law. And sent him right back to death row, which is where he is right now has were sitting here, Anthony upon of its on Fuckin Bali, global yeah come in and that's all that's our system. It's worse than me words. We do know Josh our both involve their case. We're gonna Richard MID Gift down Florida who is who is the the prosecutor who's? The judge? Who are these people
on the part of its case. I have to get you that information or maybe Jamie, can find it, but it's Anthony upon image a p, a and obesity c h. I know it's a highlighted on modalities does is sick, so says they know, he's innocent he's a hundred percent. It is science. Its dna and have happened, happens in a lot of cases, Kate Harrison I mean I hooker Cuyahoga County prosecutor, Bill Manson, leather networks. Sorry that looks like the original plan has confirmed through conclusive scientific evidence, death row inmates Anthony upon of its brutally, raped and murdered. Marianne Linda nineteen, that's a two thousand and says this is in order to face of that. Is that the article where they I got? This is updated is updated July, twenty sixth, as well It is up to you. I know that's like advocacy. Sarah here is slightly sick. Twenties confirms the guilt. Dna can firms a gilt there, it is.
This is urgent. Since one July twenty fourth, there. Sends Cleveland Man, ok, Argos, column, is court judge on Tuesday rejected and imprisoned Cleveland Man's challenge, his one thousand nine hundred and eighty four conviction, one thousand nine hundred and eighty four Jesus fucking Christ death sentence in the raping and killing of a nurse judge. Robert Mcclelland Saint, Anthony, upon which, backed I throw after Ohio Supreme Court last year, reverses two thousand fifteen decision granting upon which a new trial based on New DNA tests, Mcloughlin five page opinion expressed dismay that apply which was sentenced to death based solely on circumstantial evidence. British presented during a trial that took place just fifty, five days after the crime and note the record of the case against, upon of which was troubling. So what the fuck is. This got to be the end of the line, clone wrote. He said
no precedent and prior court rulings leave this court with no option. Then to deny the motion for new trial on the basis that the defendant is unable to show a strong. Possibility that a new trial would end in a different result. Prosecutor, Michael Molly, said in a statement through a spokesperson that upon which belongs on death row, the gamesmanship has gone on for too long or Molly said putting him back on. Death row ends the agony of years of litigation, and that has tortured the victim's family upon it. He's a pellet attorney mark divine. Not immediately return a request for comment, Wednesday FARC as authentic? It's a technicality, that's what it is and if he can't use the dna, then you can't die if I became an unaffected. Josh could speak it better than I can look. There's all sorts of roadblocks courts throw up where you know
have to bring the new evidence within a certain time frame and there's just paralyzing You know how I was out. He was out Richard means an old man. Oh my god, I mainly within for thirty five years is not a young guy she's like rice, so sick and you didn't do anything, it's the its listen. Because of this conversation we ve had. Millions and millions and millions of people around me where this that warrant aware of it before? What's the best place for them start. Is it the the wood the innocents projects website innocence, project, dot, Org, not the innocent project, purchase innocence, project dot, Org and you know Jason, I post about this all the time do been d be ironed out, Josh at Durban, DA charging Jason's at its Jason Flom but innocence project, dot, Org has great resources for how to get involved.
We have like, as you see, we have Purvis pains. Five four innocence. Add your name to a petition. You donate. You can, you know, get yours of educated about. What's going on in your community is Jason said. Our policy group, headed by Rebecca Brown, has just said ass. If so, we would say this is a great starting point. Well, we're gonna send people to their starting point. We're going keep the word out in whatever you need. If you need more podcast like this, if you need, social media help. If you need whatever you need all of it and loved I'm happy to help, I lower so data love to bring one of our clients on the show it some. Yes, they can talk about the part of the new currency and I can't leave one other person I didn't mention, but who I now want to send love to as Michel Murphy, who was roughly convey? did of murdering our own baby in Oklahoma and serve twenty years of a life sentence. The judge at her when who
when her conviction was reversed. The judge said through tee. Is that it was the worst miscarriage of justice. He'd ever seen The person we should mention by the way is whose key is still going on and people can make a difference is James Daily, Daily has been on death row in Florida for thirty three years for murder. He didn't commit his code the real murder has confessed. He confessed to me. He confessed to me that he did it He told me why he implicate he employed did my client James Daily and we, We could really use people here. Situation where the governor of Florida, Rhonda Santa's, has the ability to come. Clemency hearing and grant James Daily Clemency, at least to hear his case and no. They ve basically communicated to me the governors office that if he doesn't show contrition dad, it's not gonna go well for him to think
catch twenty two. They put me in his lawyer and him in a crime he didn't commit to its someone else's confessed to time and time again twin. Twenty is air in the whole special about the case. In my representation of him in October, we could use people writing letters to the Governor Rhonda Anti of Florida to grant James Delia, clemency, hearing, think about what I'm asking for right. Now, I'm asking for governor to exercise his power to just listen. It's that difficult to just a hearing just to listen. This other man has confessed to inmates he's confessed to his friends. He confessed to me and then, He does. He goes into court and changes is mine.
And says I I no longer want to talk about this, because every time he confesses his family reads about it in the paper. They then call him. I have recalled. Did prison calls whether, since what did you do, why did you confess We ve been telling people you didn't do this now. We can never say that any more your son will never come visit you again and then changes it pack, all of the evidence, Physical evidence leads to him he's confess. Yet my client sits on death row for three three years for a crime. He didn't commit the governor, the power to listen to his case. The clemency scheme in Florida is his rod. Santa's has the of the ability and the power to make it less of a joke than it's been, but they don't even Your cases of death row prisoners. There are even hear him. And the last word on, Michel Murphy and then we'll wrap up, because I know-
you probably have, since it provides a livelihood for years, don't acidity exactly Michel Murphy's case in this. This touches on a number of things. We talked about a Shell Murphy, Even at her original hearing, the judge com all lawyers into his chambers and said there was a kid in the courtroom. Who was the witness against her? It was the next door neighbor and the judge says how come the kid doesn't have a lawyer and the prosecutors is because he's not a suspect. Your honor is a witness in the judge, says, are you the only person here that doesn't know he's real killer and, of course that was the case, but that kid killed himself for the trial and he was there Maybe we put on the stand but Michel, more importantly, to have twenty years of a life sentence. He was exonerated fully exonerate with DNA here? It is five six years later and she hasn't gotten a dollar from the state and they fought every tooth and nail any
compensation for her and, if not for people like the first, every two plus another other good hearted people. She would be the streets I mean it's just a its is, should shock everyone conscience. The world needs more, be blood. You guys. Thank him at his country needs more people, like you guys were you doing, is amazed has been honoured. Have yawn appreciate you very very much and again, whatever can do to help, Thank you for avenues have worse importance. It we're tapping you in a man, a man. Thank you very much by everybody. Thank you. France for tune into the show and thanks to our sponsors. Thank you too, to a she go to Hell till she dot com, Slash, Rogan, get TAT ten percent off your order and free shipping is only seventy nine box and it's so much better than toilet paper go to hello, Tushi, dot, com, Rogan. Again you get ten percent off your order and free shipping Thank you also to butcher Box Butcher Box and their fantastic high costs
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also two whoop the best. Damn fitness tracker on planet earth and in the known universe, and for the listeners. This podcast whoop is going to hook you up with fifteen percent off with the code Rogan at check out gotta whoop, that's Debbie, H, o o p dot com. Enter the code, Rogan at check out and say: fifteen percent sleep better recover, faster and train smarter. Demise, your performance with whoop. Thank you friends. Thank you. There was a rough one right was hard to get through, but important and we're gonna do a lot more work with these guys. I'm very excited about that A lot more people that they recommend on and hopefully we can- We can do some good and make some change. So thank you too Josh Duve and thank you too Jason Farm and thank you to all of you. Ve listened Muslim.
Transcript generated on 2020-08-06.