Frank A. Von Hippel is an expert in ecotoxicology: the study of how pollutants impact human health and the environment at large. A professor at Northern Arizona University, Von Hippel is the author of The Chemical Age: How Chemists Fought Famine and Disease, Killed Millions, and Changed Our Relationship with the Earth, and the host of The Science History Podcast.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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its users with no central authority its awesome way to distribute currency without. The man, man and, of course, when you die although the cash app and enter the referral code, Joe Rogan all one word. You will receive ten hours and cash apple, also sent ten dollars to our good friend, just in Rennes fight for the forgotten charity, so dont forget used a promo code. Joe Rogan, all one word when you download the cash out from the app store or the Google Place door to day my guests a day is Frank VON Hippo he is professor, of Eco toxicology at Northern Arizona, university and heat. Ecology field courses in over twenty countries and as condemn, research in the Americas, Africa and Australia, any hostess science, history, pod gas and is also the author of the camera-
go age. This was a fascinating conversation. I had it was so informative and so interesting and he's just an all round cool human being. I really enjoyed it. Please welcome frank, viable. The job will gain experience. Footprint of false start, Why has the right of the already and go welcome our polarizing studio love you, but I like it here but of complaints. Jamie, that's what I am hearing from people that ray the comments. Folks We had a bang is together in a month because we moved here like literally I The time I was saying, maybe move to ask them to in Austin in studio was like two months less lapses. In six weeks, So all this was created shut. Matt Alvarez all this
created in like two weeks. So, if you think it sucks, that's ok, I, like it, I think it's ass. It's definitely weird! It's just the big shock from people that saw your brother, was the old studio and they all studio was, you know very conventional, so a carton and a brick wall in american flag is pretty paranormal. This is there's a big difference, something about change while yet this lovely Asian. That's good ash. Can ass! That's right from India, remover of obstacles yeah! My daughter actually went to last year's a high school in India. I bought that in Thailand, actually about in Thailand and shipped over. So what are you gonna do in India? She did her last year's a high school there, that's crazy why'd! You do that. My oldest win to his last year's has gone Costa Rica loved it, and so she wanted to do something similar and
she went to Great scorecard called Woodstock School, which is in the foothills of the Himalayas had a great time. That's pretty cool. Pretty outages. Rather we did yeah multiple times hoof, Gotta be weird to be the last two years of high school fifteen or sixteen seventeen, and just to leave your phone. We indeed another continent, but don't you we're being that Asian. You just wanted a handsome independence and had out yeah yeah. I guess so. So old, it's hard to look back when I'm sixteen, I'm going have some vague memories. Well, you're so old. I'm sorry, I think, were born the same year. Sixty seven yeah yeah. They were muffled yeah. Totally. Look at me, It's all doubt whom I love you I too have had it. I have cited there's a pretty white now is very disturbing. Now comes in my woe: goddamn does shaven all now
and my face too I'll. Give him a lot of grey hairs. On my face too, it's like yeah, they come in either black or white. This mix by the time doesn't give a fuck fake. Sorry, kid you have me was actually lots of hair and it was brown, and then I had my first kid and then overnight and gray, and then add my second kid. Anyone, white, rail and air- that's interesting. So this just the lack of sleep, struck, yeah getting sick when you get and Oliver yeah guess you so what's in that There is a present for you. Oh really, oh well, is this a bone? This is a human bound. Now, what would animal so silent biologist and I brought you a gift from my home state of Alaska? Can you figure out what it is worth resorts fossilized? It is your right I can tell you is the way yes, thousands years old and for People
don't have to explain this to my kids that a fossil is not the actual bone. It's a representation of the bone, that's been of his own generalised cells, turn on issues like weight, but it's a bone yak as they have a fossil at school, and I was China's essay see how that looks not like bone yeah has not really bone is what this is. What the bone bone used to be there, and then this is the shape of the bone. That's been mineral asked, yes, I've loved fossils are collect fossils, so heavy yeah. I thought I'd bring you a fossil, lemme, guess I'll, say legs its fairly thin, so say like some sort of Africa a horse or some other cower now you know I'd, give you a hint, so I got it on Saint Lawrence. I really need is a bear. Now. I got it on the other, are polar bears air, but there's no other way.
But I got in Saint Lawrence, island in the Barents Sea or do a lot of work and the people there are subsistence. Hunters o caribou. Care. But now there are ranger on the island, the come from Siberia, but there's no care be there, so their suppliers, hunters. Their marine hunters, So I guess he and it's not a seal, but your klutz horse. War is. Is it yeah? Oh, what part the vacuum back to Mamma? If someone said I heard back to the village shut up you nor should actually be bound so the vacuum is a penis Bonn. Oh Jesus, I'm putting all the way for him to such that environmental wow. Imagine all you other complaining, ok, thank you, sir. He asked bigger wars. Pay now is trying to think of what may not already have in Dublin on. Have that
Look at that one wow: that's crazy, gotta be from an extinct, extinct wars I bet that's why it's extinct you haven't ladys. Will I get out of here with that? You're gonna kill me, but thank you, Frank or anything thanks for me on the show my pleasure. Your book, the Chemical age It touches on a lot of subjects that fine, very fascinating, particularly pesticides. I am conscious consistently terrified of us. I'm ran to a man once that I met on a ranch and he added. Artificial sigh bone, his femur, had been replaced with. I got a piece of metal, a metal bone and he told me he got bone cancer from pesticides. These on a golf course that got into look
water supply in a bunch of people in that area got cancer and there was like some large scale. Lawsuit against the office, gets a chemical company or the the golf course or both. But I remember thinking: woe like I did. Ok I think of that, like of course, if you're going to have all that green grass, you have to do something about the weed. You have to do something about the bugs that all that stuff is terrifying. When, when I was listening to your podcast science history podcast in your friend was interview new, whose p Myers Mars, is interviewing you and you were talking about the prevalence of these pesticides and chemicals that we use, whose all over the world- and he said I think is exact quote was in my wrong in saying that there is on a square centimeter of this planet. That's not somehow another polluted by humans and our chemicals- and you say, that's actually that's accurate-
Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it that's insane yeah and you think of you, ve done to Alaska yeah hand, you you go to Alaska, looks prestige is beautiful and you think everything is perfectly clean but in fact, even their most remote places in the world like Alaska, getting out Mr Kelly deposited Camel was including pesticides that are used to lower latitude, and so there really is an anywhere on the earth is not polluted, unfortunately, and your explaining the The way these chemicals get into the atmosphere and then get distributed all over the world akin to who still like a whiskeys or a moonshine, still yanks If you go back and you look at an old, an old still the way, works, you would have a heat source like a bunsen. Bernard is heating up a liquid and that liquid
volatile and some of it evaporates into a gas and then and then that is connected via glass, tube to class ball, that has cold water on it and that whatever vaporize is from that he'd is going to condense. On that call surface where the cold water is so as a basics of how you would make a distillery and the earth works really in the same way. So the equator is the part of the earth its most directly facing the sign is getting the most intense solar radiation. She of these contaminants, like many pesticides, pcbs lot of other things that that some out some portion of them will evolve. Ties or become a gas and they'll be in the atmosphere, though, move in the atmosphere and then they'll condense out of the atmosphere when it gets cold or so when its wintertime be a little higher in latitude and the next summer, though volatile again, though, evaporate again alone, move north again is called a grasshopper effect.
And over some number of years they moved away north when they get to the North pole to the south pole. Those are hemispheric sinks for these contaminants, his cold year round and so the amount of deposit. From the atmosphere is far greater than the amount of evaporation and therefore the the poles have the highest concentrations of certain classes of these so called persistent organic pollutants they're the ones that are relatively light that can move through the atmosphere. As a result that- and these are also fat, saw you also they get into the food web and ass. You go up each food trophic level, you end up with higher and higher concentrations, so the more the animals with high concentrations of these certain kinds of persistent organic pollutants on earth. Are these high traffic level long lived animals in the Arctic like the killer way on the polar bear that I'll have noise of times the background concentration of these contaminants thinks like DDT, mercury, a lot of other chemicals lie, pesticides, flame retardant, chemicals and so on.
Wow, so polar bears so as to when day they test these animals. So if the people in these areas eat these animals. Are they at risk of being infected by these contaminants, or is it at a level, words can harm them. Now it it's a is really sad case environmental injustice, because you have subsistence peoples that the indigenous peoples of the Arctic that their living off them, environment, the rainbow had whale and walrus and icy seals and polar bear and. A single one of their meals, they're getting in the fat in them, oil? They take their blubbering. Render oil which goes under all of their meal, every single meal they're getting hundreds of parts per million of pcbs and pesticides, and things like that says it's just grossly unfair when you think about it, because they never use these chemicals, they didn't benefit economically from these chemicals, and yet there are subject to
that some of the highest concentrations in the world- and you are also saying that their breast milk is contaminated with it, actually the way this whole problem was discovered was in the nineteen eighty scientists in Canada on it, understand breast milk, contamination of woman who lived in southern Canada in the industrial and agricultural areas of Canada So they were thinking work. We find a reference population of people who have no exposure to these chemicals, so they decided to go to bath in Ireland in North Eastern Canada to look at the issue at people Lived there and there are surprised to find that, though, the women on Baffin Island, their breast milk, contain ten to twenty times higher concentrations of chemicals like DDT and pcbs and and mercury than the woman who lived in it. Nostril areas where these chemicals were used, so that was a first
kind of global alert. The dead actually were were poisoning the people are. People of the Arctic were poisoning them and that's how the rights of indigenous people in the Arctic to live in a clean environment became part of the Stockholm convention on persistent organic pollutants, thirst representatives from this tribes who go to the negotiations every time is because of this problem is called global distillation. And because of this factors is like a still the way that it works now network we noticed problem, exists, zero solution, that's on the table or a possible solution, a theoretical solution to try to extract that yeah actually deploy. Mom is kind of to false who have talked about one aspect of it, which is this atmosphere, transport of contaminants, but the other aspect of it. Is there also thousands of locally contaminated sites in the Arctic? I do a lot of work on this things like formally defend sites from the cold war, so the military
he thousands of these. U S! Military Europe, Russia, military and these sites have terrible problems with contamination, a tip, only when the military pulled out of them. They just left everything behind we have size revert worked in. Alaska. Where just feels of barrels, you don't know. What's in the barrels and they're leaking and an email you tested and you find there's, there's all kinds of nasty things. Flame retardants and pesticides, And pcbs, so in their long time been there for decades and unfortunately, these coming, Kohl's, many of them persist for decades. That's why they were so wonderful. You know pcbs were so wonderful because there were stable, they could last for decades, but that's also why they're so bad because they're carcinogenic, they disrupt the hormone system they cause different problems. So in terms of what can we do about it? The main thing is to not be using these chemicals and to be using does it feel called green chemistry which seeks to instead, you save chemicals in place, these toxic chemicals
but in terms of cleaning up the others. Also things to do to clean up were involved without in some places and is an important thing to do, but we have to stop the problem even before it gets going. When did this problem? Darlin, wended, human being start using large scale, pesticides, so large scale I said you started in the eighteen eighties and at that time,. Were based on metals and metalloids, so naturally occurring toxic metals that would kill insects or kill fungal pass things like that and those are actually quite dangerous. Things like lead and arsenic being used in in these pesticides are dangerous because they ended up on the food so you'd by an apple and if you didn't wash it while you, yet a dose of lead poisoning that continued until about world war. Two in world war, two we made it your man, The shift from using these metal based products using synthetic organic compounds,
some World war, two we saw the origin of the organic chlorine compounds and they're gonna phosphate compounds and in those really became the basis for pesticide use, then, and then there were broadcast all over the environment following world WAR two, and till today. So in the eighteen eighties, when they were using their using lead and they're using arsenic, what would it with combating locus like what were they or the trying to kill? So the very first commercial pesticide was actually copper based pesticide new is used in France to stop the the mildew that is destroying the vineyards and once it was that it could destroy, is called it a watermark once it was found that could destroy the water mould and save the vineyards. Scientist realized it also use it against the potato blight which had caused the famine in Ireland in the eighteen, fortys and other famines around the world so became a very powerful tool that prevent famine- and you know one thing I like to look back on is, as you can think: why do people poison the world like this with his head,
I will thanks for really their motivations initially were quite positive, they're trying to stop famine. Ireland has just been through this devastating famine. They were trying to stop infectious diseases that were affected by insects things by malaria and yellow fever. So the motivation was good but unfortunately used for public health because, instead of just using for public health, we started using it in the house in four of convenience: For everything, it is really crazy when you think that the human species has been around for hundreds of thousands of years and it took till eighteen. Eighty before we decide to fuck, everything the pesticides? That's a long time and we fuck things that pretty fast, because- Now we have a world that is, like you said, Where you go in this world, you're going to find contaminated animal, go to Antarctica, any measure, pesticides in penguins and their eggs and you'll find very high concentration.
And are they seeing health effects of the innocent people and the people in these animals? Is it? Is it having a detrimental effect on them. It does and in fact the cancer rates are quite high and among the people who are subsistence hunters near taken, that's really how I got involved with this kind of work- is that people report a very had cancer rates, also high rates of developmental disorders. It could be due to these these chemicals disrupting development the womb and, and so there there are groups who bring together teams of scientists to work on this. I was brought in as an eco tax colleges to work on some aspects of this and big There is quite a few health problems associated with this, and I are these subsistence hunters are. They were free of all the other problems that many intuit folks have in terms of like cigarettes and alcohol and a lot of people who live in it reduced to some of the vices of the western world now in its
same kind of problems also with these communities in Alaska, there's high tobacco use sand and a lot of problems without alcohol, and they pay course whether or not it's a guy in a contributing factor. You think it's a contributing factor and is very hard to pass it out, and actually this is the justification the government of often uses to say. Well, it's not the contaminants from the military side. This caused. The problem, though say look cancer rates are no higher in this village. That's next to the military side than they are in this village, us away from the military site. But you know it's it's if you can't actually solve the problem of the epidemic. Ology we're talking a tiny communities. My knee the villages I work in typically are no more than eight hundred people awhile, and so How can you do a proper study of a rare health effect when you have a small population, so I'm sure it's contributing to the health problems, and unfortunately, people use the fact that there are these other issues that cause health problems like smoking. In order to justify
not doing anything about the pollution and anew. So when you go to these villages is it will uniform that most of them were using cigarettes and alcohol. So I, if I, if I'm so unalaska. Actually most of the villages are legally dry and in so it's it's illegal to have our colleagues illegal to bring an alcohol really by many people, do or they Hombre. Is this, because the village has realised the problem with this in the community yeah exactly, and so they have passed their own laws there in other they have their sovereign governments. They pass your own laws to make their villages dry, but there are still problems, of course, with I'll call on drugs. An entire communities, so they passees laws. They make them dry, but people sneaked stuff in anywhere yeah yeah factually flying is villages and in small aeroplanes is typically a state trooper searching through. Looking to see if anyone springing I'll call in cigarettes,
as well? There I noticing reserve asked so? Is there any where you can study that has this issue with the pollutants, but doesn't have the issue without calling them and is work it was its figure it out and is avoided the Algarve? So ass, a great question I dont know I have not come across any communities, it don't have. Multiple multiple promised is difficult and it's the same in other parts of the world. What I've done work like in Australia aboriginal community users there's a whole bunch of things going on that are harmful to health, but the part that I'm focused on as a contribution of contaminants right, I just was wondering if there a place. We could examine only the contaminants if somehow and others feel it figured out how to be free of the it's a great resident writer, been. It would be a great way to study. But I don't know now you're telling me before that you also work with some native american tribes as well, as is the same issue. I said,
different kinds of contaminants, I'm doing work down on the Arizona Mexico border. That's will see on pesticide use and working with migrant farm workers there, and so, if, if you think about that, the pesticides ever common when miracle, it's an and a little bit earlier. These organic clawing pesticides like DDT. They were pretty safe to handle and are the problem was that they were destroying wildlife, causing species go extinct. It's why the ball legal almost went extinct. Why? The Peregrine falcon almost went extinct us from DDT, and I and so countries, including the United States, face those chemicals out? There were replaced by the organic phosphate chemicals, pesticides and These were developed by nazi scientists are world war to their very soon
or to the nazi nerve. Gas poisons like tat an uncertain and those chemicals are incredibly toxic, but they breakdown faster in the environment, so we ended up trade, doing a trade off where they're gonna chlorine would end up as residues on food and consumers would would end up with two unacceptable levels like if you go back into the nineteen sixties, the average American had twelve parts per million ddt in their body fat and that's a toxic level DDT and I was the average so how really terrible consequences for health. So in order to prevent that, we switched you're gonna phosphates, but then that caused another problem because then were asking the farm workers instead of using this relatively safe chemical. To use to you something quite dangerous: lotta people get killed in
during application and the farm workers with some of the most vulnerable people in our society. There, typically migrants from Mexico or other parcel Latin America they're coming up the work in incredibly hard. They don't have the right protective equipment and then their sprain is- models that are incredibly poison. A thousand work on that on health effects of of pesticides in the border region, both with modern farmer, could communities and with some of the tribes now these are they absorbing this stuff through the respiratory system as it in their skin like what it? What is getting them sick? So it depends on the says some pesticides like DDT. You actually get from food and if you go back and look at world war, two photos where the Army was sprain refugees and soldiers with with ddt powder. That's actually pretty safe, you're, not going to get DDT poisoned by habit and I'm your and they were doing
this for what reason to kill the body louse, because lice transmit typhus and to prevent epidemic typhus during the war and after the war we use massive NASA Ddt, doesn't brave people down spread if you pull down affect the very first time a typhus epidemic was stopped in its tracks, was in Naples in December, one thousand nine hundred and forty three to February one thousand nine hundred and forty four military, just conquered Naples Neapolitans, have been living in caverns by the tens of thousands under under the city. During the bombardment- and so, of course, if your crowded and dirty in your living in a cavern with thousands of other people, there's going to be body lies and their cause an outbreak of typhus. So the? U S, military set up these de lousy stations, where we literally sprayed the DDT powder and every single person in Naples and stop typhus in his tracks. Very first time before that typhus had to
out of the outcome of more worse than any other factor it is. It is the companion of words. Also, if you go back to the irish potato famine, people don't really die of hunger, win, win their starving to death, they die of disease so there the system is compromise and the Irish died over a million die Irish died during the famine from typhus and from relapsing fever, both of which are vector by the body louse. So that's why we're using DDT during the war typhus is actually something that they discovered recently in LOS Angeles and homes, community Iowa yeah, it was a big shark- is a real stunner people, terrified because others, some of the areas and skid row that are literally thousands and thousands of people in in these areas are homeless. I mean it is the craziest thing you've ever saying: it's just tents and garbage, and it's horrific and apparently some of the people tested positive for
This is a terrible one and in some other wars were typhus broke out like in the Crimea and where the mortality rate could get to. Seventy percent of the people were infected, so makes covert. Look like nothing hoof. So the DDT that there sprang these people with so they shielded there food somehow another right there sprang them physically with it. You have actually one word about shilling food back then that if you are sprayed downloaded it even if you had some food there, that want exposure wouldn't be that big a deal so the time sick levels of DDT coming from its for long exposure to mercury and For wildlife too, because a persistent environment for four decades, then that led to the poisoning of a lot of wildlife. You say Eagle, Sir, the Eagles getting it from the prey animals that are eating it. Jaso top predators are the ones who get the highest concentrations, because it's fast soluble, and so
it ends up getting pass from the prey to the predator and you have an animal like an eagle. That's a top predator approving falcon or a polar bear, so poor, a single polar bear believe hundreds seals and each of those seals has eaten thousands of fish and those fish of Eden, thousands of small fish in Seoul plankton. So by the time you work your way through that food web, your at a million times the background clusters I had my blood tests at once. I tested high for arsenic and universal human rights. Only trying to kill me and the doktor was asking questions about my die. And I ve a lot of sardines, and I was eating like several cans of sardines a day. He's will that's it. I got really. He has yet cut was out and come back in a couple months. I cut it out and there is no arsenic lasso. I was getting arse Turkey is not a level, is gonna, kill you it's just willow alarming, to see that in your blood- and it was from the heavy metal poisoning in the oceans. Sardines apparently live at a very
Polluted area of the ocean, ok, yeah, I'm surprised, arsenic from fish, typically, mercury that people get Ossetia, tunnel and arson. Was actually one of the it's a metalloid and nets. It's one of the key Eliza, was used in fungicides still is actually in many places. So you can also get it from agricultural use and is also in background levels, pine backroom levels in some places like Bangladesh, parts of Alaska parts of errors on a novel nation, for example. So this places and in the world where the than natural levels are unacceptably high. Then that's where you get your drinking water, so people use exposed arsenic through water. So these migrant workers that are there, the DDT is safe for them too, to use and handle these other chemicals that using now place of DDT or not and their killing them. When we're getting to whether or not there being exposed to it through respiratory. That's right right, so so so
pesticides like they're gonna, phosphates, you can, you can take it directly through the skin, and so, if they're out there and I and its being sprayed or their sprain themselves. They could get it through the scan. They can get it through breathing it in there protecting these people that did not wearing gear anything myself out rang the crops, so they do now. But if you go back say twenty years, sometimes they weren't. You may remember that protest movement led by Caesar Chavez and in something California in the for the migrant farm workers and the great boycott in the nineteen eighties, and what that was about was the this brain. It is incredibly toxic chemicals without protective gear, without proper training and people are getting exposed to really high levels. But even today, if your farm,
a car with protective gear and you're in a place like I work in you marathon aware there there's agriculture all year round and those people are getting exposed to aerial applications and handheld applications of pesticides all year round. So, even if you have gear you take off your, you go home to your family right. Next to the the sprain you're still going to be breathing it and it'll be on the clothing it'll be in the food in the water and so there's is there an alternative? That's more expense That's healthier, or is there just no way around this? Yes, the star number of alternatives, so the one that most people talk about is integrated pest management and that kind of alternative you use the least amount and the least toxic pesticides only were, if necessary, so you're, trying to completely minimize pesticide use and use things like spiders and birds and other insects, embowering ends
yeah that will eat the past insects. So if you think about aspirin down a field with a nasty pesticide, free, kill, all the earth priority in Saxony, spiders and so on, you not just killing pass like the grasshopper this evening, the food, your also killing the insects than eat, the grasshopper you Eddie, you're, killing the wasps, Paris citizens, the grasshopper. Release net biological control and integrate. Pest management combines biological control of using animals to control the pack. Animals with minimal, focused use of of of pests sides when he got there Jimmy. What is this conveniently on Twitter as a couple hours ago, some ten thousand ducks being released on a field in China for pests, Sweden look at all those raw materials look at him go that's a lot of ducks. Man wow just swarming, it's the imo in their almost like a they know, they're gonna, like they're they're all found
we need each other like look. A crazy, then, is that that how's that has oh and others is not. You feel a study, or maybe you know something about it, but is a fascinating to me how birds move in unison, even docks. On the ground. They move the way, these big massive clouds of birds move in the sky, look how they move yeah, it's like fish sang and so what what's apparently happening with schooling or or this kind of behaviour, is: where do you not want to be if you're in a school of fish- worse, the worse place to be, outside the outside redness, where the sharks gonna get you every was trying to get to the middle at all times, and so that causes the whole thing to be this boiling mass were all the animals you're gonna get to the centre and it makes it look coordinated, but really it is just everyone's trying to get away from the edge is others I'm seeing with birds when their flying around those beautiful clouds. Well, if it's of a massive flock of birth, like you see, was starlings. We have thousands of them, but it's different with things like
he said, are migrating or cranes that are migrating where they're going for that aerodynamic position in the group. So the v that you're right, yeah and those their responding to something magnetic right there, a variety of a variety of things so that they do sense, theorist magnetic field as part of their, but they also used landmarks. Some animals used polarization of the sun like if you, if you look at honeybees, I hadda honeybees communicate navigate about where their food is its remarkable, is it that it was discovered by a guy named VON fresh? He won the Nobel Prize for this, along with Negro Tinbergen and Conrad Lorenzo there only peopled ever win. The Nobel Prize and something to do with animal behavior and word for fresh found. Is that honeybees, when they go out this day there are the workers are forging to trying to find a good natural source, so they find
good flowers had come back to the hive and they then have communicate where that food is with something called the Waigel dance. But its is remarkable, because this is kind of an abstract language they they transpose. Did they do the dance on the vertical honey an aid, and they transpose the angle from where you have to fly relative to the sun to the vertical honeycomb, so they they position. They act like that visit. The sun is completely vertically above the honey come and lets say they had to fly ten degrees to the right of the sun to get to the flower. Then they danced ten degrees to right of the vertical of honey come and they can dance for hours. But of course the sun is moving, but they do move their dance to coordinate with, where the and would be they know where the sun would be internally in there in their brain and they transpose her dance for that, but they dont. You communicate There are just communicating angle, the fly they also communicate, how far to fly, and Israel
about how much energy you need to fly, because if there's headwind, it takes more energy and if there's a tell when it takes less energy, so the intensity, the Waigel Dance tells the other bees how much energy you new needs, fly there and then, when the workers leave the high, they know the angle to go and they know the then how much energy to expand to get there but these can also navigate by polarized lights of the sun is completely covered up with clouds the stillness, the sun is by the polarization of light. They still do the Waigel dance based on that and they can also went navigate by landmarks in the landmarks, actually will take precedence, so you can screw them up. You can have a lamb out there, and then they do the Waggled mass then you move the landmark when they come out. They'll follow the landmark and go to the wrong place, so they fuck the bees to find out whether or not and whether they could do yeah. Why that is so amazing what the it's so to me how insects have this sort of collective intelligence. My boyfriend Lex freed
On the other day we are talking about ants about how amazing, is that ants collectively, have some sort of intelligence It allows them to make these I'm sure you ve seen these gigantic leaf cut. Her aunt judges, yeah I've, I've studied them a little baby. When I was in school we we did, of course in tropical acknowledging Costa Rica, and you can single. We ve cut her ant colony. Seven million individuals and their acting as one you know, and they they can t Folliot and entire rainforest tree and a couple of hours. It. But we don't know why we don't know how we have now idea how they're doing it right. We don't know how their thinking together collectively we don't, and in fact these cut her answer. Farmers so do have one cast of advocates the leaf pieces as another cast of aunt, the customer tiny little pieces and then this other answer, then processes, pieces and seed them with fungus, and then the fungus grows in this.
Ass- was seven million ants and grows these little freudian bodies and that's all they eat the freudian bodies from the fungus. That's diet. So they all thy work of bringing leaves and flowers to ten, this garden of fungus and the fungus can only live with the ant, and the ant can only deal with the fund's their farmers. Farmers I've seen the leaf cut her aunts hot when they, when they take it, they fill it with great and they show that there's areas that they have that are specifically designed to ferment. The leaves like they have event, yet they ve built event like how are they figuring this out? They even have refugee pits, so you can find an exit where they ve taken the processed food and fungus any they refuse that they have a landfill they make so. Like how in we just kind of like we don't know, is shorter shoulders. Science does not have in the ability, currently two to reach into their little aunt brains and figure out what
when we might not be brains and might be firm owns, it might be a variety of different things. Yes, we some things. We know how they communicate with pheromones, how they lay down sense. Also, the ants the bees whilst they all belong to a group, although I am an opera and there really interesting group, because those females are deployed like humans, they have to chrome to copies of every chromosome. The males are haploid. The males only have one copy of a chromosome to the way that you make a male is a female, produces an unfertilized egg and the the workers are all females. So you look in a in a. Be colony in calling all the workers a female. The only make a male when when it's time to reproduce, and so almost all the workers, there are sterile, they dont have their own babies. Right is only the queen that has babies when they want to make a queen. They they provide special nutrition and make a queen and so then the question is why, with these workers work the whole eyes when they're not having their own babies rather not making their own offspring.
And part of the answer is there actually more related to their siblings than they would be to their own offspring and thus because, if, if they have their own offspring, the related by fifty percent right there only going to send down half of their chromosomes, but third, there there, the queen, who then has siblings of that work, is sending down half of her genes, which are in common with each of the workers, but the male fertilizers, those to make another worker. He only has one set of genes, so the workers are actually related to each other by three quarters by their only with due to their own offspring by half and therefore it because all of the genes are common through the father half the genes are common through the mother. We're lucky their little Angie, I nosegay of horses, and they can't be because exoskeleton can't handle that kind of body size way, further
We have a different browser. I stay out of trouble. I mean, I think some of the most complex and amazing lifeforms on this planet, and it's just so that we know so little about particular ants like how their communicating and how their figuring out, how do the uniformly like leave cut. Her answer are nowhere near aside, one colony figure out the dad told the sun, the son told the daughter, no other far way from each other and they have the same methods. Yeah yeah we ve got her and colony it'll stretch a huge distance through the reinforced they make these paths. You can easily find a colony because they clear all the vegetation from their path and the path of several inches wide in its work in its way to whatever tree there. Working on a back seat is columns and millions of these of his aunts March and, along with it,
hours or leaves, and that paltry is, is naked. One there's another weird one with it happens when some of them getting infected with quarter sips mushrooms is different ants, but I think in the Amazon where they realized that this and is infected with these mushrooms. So they take it far out of town, so that when an x, Lowe's and blow spores of may they're, not there. That's awesome, they figure it out like they now. MIKE got the zombie, and so this this have you seen those mushrooms? they grow inside the ants body now outs fascinating. They literally sprang fourth out of the ants body like a leaf like a tree like like that. That is that's a dead at that as this quarter subs mushroom, it's either is there's more. Types of course, ups mushrooms, but some criticisms, mushrooms. They grow on caterpillars and there actually beneficial for humans for physical endurance.
They optimize oxygen absorption, my company on it. Actually we sell a product called shrimp tech. That is a court six mushroom based product as be twelve and other adapted genes in it? But it's like the great work out supplement and in its based on the course of mushroom, but it's not same course, have mushroomed, go back to that again, Jane no worse than alien tat crazy, and they would, though, that the way we get it they farm it off of caterpillars, which is crazy. And the way they found is like high altitude hurting populations were noticing that there can. All were eating these mushrooms and more active and southern. They live we'll try and insert etiam, but these these weirdos they they grow in these ants bodies and then they explode and they spray the spores and they in fact, more ants but it kills the air and look at that one of the Upper Middle Jamie. Look at that summit
Just all these little arms of this court Mushroom growing out of this ants body, denizen awesome court. And how do they know their yeah? How do they know? How do they know that this is going to happen like up Bobby? the zombie fungus fungus we gotta get about town and they'll. Take us by They dragged the other ants body way away they leave it there and then it'll blow. I remember crook. Sir Gurney Weaver, didn't know that those things we're gonna pop out of people when she got to the spaceship rushed in and these ants? No it's, this video they can't play us on my right. We could take a look at our plan on afflicts as all Pisa. It's really see see they get infected and then this growl. They do a time lapse, video of it, our planet fungus clip from Netflix, so these
spores, grow in this time lapse and you get a chance to see how this parasitic fungus infects and it's a murderous fungus. Many killed the ant and in fact little body and grows out, and I guess it's just hoping this. Ass near by so it can get em like look how crazy that is scientifically their way, the other ants nearby began there, all social wild. Then how its growing out of the answer corpse and see how to say they're starting to spray out into the air, and these spores will then in fact, the other ants thrilling nuts But so cool to award the did the variety, the biological variety of life on this planet its none of time in your life to relieving consider at all costs are so many different varieties. Of it, and it's all so complex and so puzzling, if you think
all this somehow another through natural selection and. Random mutation became that and this weird really Shepherd the fungus, an answer, my enemy something is, we know very little about small and microscopic life, and so for all, there's something like ten thousand species of microbial fungi and things that you that are described and scientifically but you can find five thousand unknown speed species. It is in a sea of soil and so the than unknown unknown. Just you know their people, both sequence them to figure out. We don't know what this is. Yet. He look at insects and here in fact, you would think we would know all the insects from scientists go down of the rain forest, though, will set up a net under a rainforest tree fumigate it to kill the insects collect. All the insects fall out and a lot of times. Forty thirty forty percent of insects are needed.
Science? So you know we know most of the mammals. We know most of the birds. It's we're down to maybe a new mammal discovery every year to new bird every year or two, but you get to the end. There's not that many species of them it's about four thousand six hundred and forty seven or species of mammals does five hundred thousand species of beetles, so there's more beatles than all vertebrates can buy by a long shot. That's crazy! It's such a weird animal to Beatles again was huge. We would be a real trouble. Yeah we'd be run in the Amazon. Is such more any the rainforest so fascinating in that they do have this insanely dense population of life.
I have a friend who went to a Guyana and he stayed in the rainforest for a couple of weeks and filming the sun, my friend Steve Rinella, the television show meat eater on Netflix and one of things. He said the craziest are there was no really surprising was how loud the jungle is at night. His like you'd think like at night time you go to sleep, can require like the forest use its screaming, it's his bugs and birds and monkeys, and all these knocked her creatures to score. It's just a definite, that's all around his wife. All all noise yes starts at night with the insects is its. It can be incredibly loud, like a fear there to when the cicadas are her out and and oftentimes are emerging on these prime number year, so there some years will be low some years. If you very high it's, it can be definitely like. You can have to shout to hear each other when the cicadas
and then you get two hour and a half before sunrise and you start to get the howler monkeys going off and they have their morning chorus and then half an hour before sunrise as the birds are starting their there Don chorus and dynamic. Quite down about an hour and a half after sunrise and pretty quiet until till evening. Again, so and depends which reinforce ran. So, if you're in Africa, the Ngos are different species. So, if you're in the Amazon. You can hear the howler monkeys in the morning if you're in Africa, Topical Africa, Europe here the Columbus monkeys in the morning.
Was real bombers at this people, the one that chop that shit down just to grow crops or the you know what make it for cattle graze or quickly tragic, because that's where most of the world's biodiversity is in these rainforests are the most viable habitat on earth in terms of supporting life. So it is, it is awful and also was interesting. Is that how many pharmaceutical drugs that can benefit people or derived from plants they find in the rainforest and they believe, is more to be discovered if we get there before the job, everything down Janius, not just before we chop everything down, but before we lose that indigenous knowledge of what plans are good for what universe the shipments you know from thousands of years of of of practising what good for what and a lot of that knowledge is already gone. But if you look, it must be
but our realise how much of our medicine comes from plants, and if you look at western medicine, which I think of all the medical traditions in the world probably has the least drugs coming from plants is still about, half of our drugs are derived, Implant products and you go to traditional chinese medicine. It's almost all of it. You go to traditional indian medicine, it's almost all of it. So yeah, there's a there's, an incredible knowledge base and incredible diversity of species that we have to protect for our future. We have no idea what drugs might be incredibly valuable in the future From the rain forest it so interesting to, if you talk to people, but where drugs come from like when it went to farmers who do the jobs come from, they think it's a laboratory. Most people do right. If you say well, they come plants like to get out of here. Happy: yeah. Maybe if I may be allowed now, but originally it was from from, is extracted from a bright and then synthesize some of them you can't synthesizer can only come from plants. Some of them can be synthesize men and then the lad, but still I had come from a plan to begin with now
when their extracting this stuff and there turning these into pharmaceutical drugs, but is Is the impact that that has on the area? Where is there a danger like when they find something that they can use an extract as a drug? What how do they? How do they parts that I like? How do they? How do they find? this, that when they have a spot where this particular plant grows, do they just take it extracted and then use it to make pharmaceutical drugs compounding pharmacy or through some scientific method or happens to them all the other points? that are in those areas and is there a risk that as they extract The plants they used to make these pharmaceuticals that their screwing up the whole ecosystem of this area, and there might be other plants that can do different thing. That there are now dooming to death, because they're pulling out there, we are focusing on this one drug
This really good. For you know arthritis or whatever yeah there's a lot a lot. There so I'm getting as there were monkeying with these right and environments, and so the most efficient way to fine drugs and the rain forest would be to find what the locals use, what plans to they use for four different thanks and and is probably good chances that works, then, once that's done. Unfortunately, the history has been that pharmaceutical companies and take those plants back to the lab and and then that's the end of the story for the locals and really that resources. Coming from them. They should get some economic benefit from those plants being derived. There are some small companies that that are trying to do this now they're trying to feed money back to the communities where they come from. But if you want people to protect the rain forest, they have to have an economic incentive to do so, and one of those incentives can be around pharmaceuticals are used to work in a reinforced in western Kenya and
there. There. There are many problems associated with people, girdling trees, because a lot of the medicine Come from the bark sorrowing, you said they would cut the bark completely round the tree within reach, all the bark they could reach, they would cut out, and they have this this five hundred year old tree that dies because it doesn't have the bark anymore which it needs for moving nutrients. Around so yeah they can. It can, of course damaged the forest on, but I think one of the most important things is just not just taking that resource in a responsible way for the environment, but also in a responsible way for the people who live there. Who made these discuss Greece over thousands of years- yes, so how do you and sent devise pharmaceutical companies to bring in these folks that live in this area and incorporate them again and actually include them in the profits with? How do you cause if they don't have to do it special
near you're. Doing no place like the Amazon which is notorious for them, taking advantage of the indigenous people, and you know having these her, thick abusive relationships, I'm sure you're, aware of it got murdered in the Amazon just the other day. I got shot by this tribe and he was actually one of the people is trying to protect these. Contact tribes and in just leave them alone, and unfortunately, they it's hard for them recognize whether or not this is a guy. That's therefore, the oil company, These are the cattle companies can have these her relationships with these companies have drawn exploit. Them and the resources, and so they shot, is gonna, kill them with an arrow yeah and usually the other way around. Usually it's the gold minors who are killing the environmentalist and
So I don't know the answer, your question, because I I don't know how to motivate businesses to do the right thing. I think we have a long history on this planet of business is doing the wrong thing when they get the power and and not thinking responsibly about how to do what they're doing sustainably and also I would worry that I don't know if this is a good warrior, I'm being ridiculous. That if they did hit some sort of a windfall if they found some area, Amazon, where they have this plant, that you can make it'll drugs out of events, incredibly valuable, and so others. Normal, smarter profit for this village. You you'd want a situation like you have in these native american communities, were a tribe allows a casino to come in and then a sort of bastardize is what the reservation used debate or the tribe is to be- and I have all these people running around Dr driving Mercedes making owes money, offer people gambling, but the original
of life is gone now, Finally, with native Americans, there's a lot more complicated problems that go way back for in other genocide. The fact that they were in over by them settlers and all the treaties that were broken all the various injustices that were done them than. On top of that you got this whole weird casino culture. It would be the like- I don't want to live in a subsistence jungle tribe in the middle of the Amazon, but that's how they live and they love it and they they thrive. That way, as the only lived I've ever known. If we all sudden. Gave them money and you go back and now the wherein under Armor t shirts- and you know they have paths and a party and in playing music and they have internet connections and their wives gone like that. The argument is Is that good or bad? Is that progress? I dont know
I dont want to live in a hut, but I think its awesome people that live off the land. You know the way they ve lived. Four thousand and thousands of years, when you see those photos of those uncontacted tribes, there's one Credible photo of these folks that are pointing their bows and arrows at it was either a drone or helicopters taking photos. And unlike why? What a weird convergence of the past and the present and how does this play out like is? Would it be good if they were decayed about modern electronics and medicine and the internet in all these different. Or would it be better, If you leave him alone, I kids, it's it's. A conundrum is at the photo yeah. Look at that. Goddamn, that's cool! I mean this dude has A big fistful, arrows, there's a couple of em and these that's the one. That's the one that have seen before that one where these people are, They all have body paint on and.
Something really wild about that. But would it be bad or if they got medicine. Would it be better? If they got me, I don't know, I don't know. I think that communities have to decide for themselves what they Why haven't they don't know than on other consequences of bringing the rap the western world right away of life? But it's cool that cool. You can see that still it is cool. I think part of the answer, though, is candid: technology be integrated in a way that fits with the culture and can they make a part of their culture? Isn't slippery slope maybe maybe not like, wouldn't if you were if you were living on a reservation when she still love to have your Porsche, but that's a reservation. See the reservations in America and there are well aware of what going on and what happened to them, and this too, so it's so much more complicated, whereas this is did their isolated. I mean the right many, these tribes, that really don't they're, not aware like
one in the island of India Worth that ignores an. I have a whole bit my act, but that fella That's it that's a really weird one because they they actually welcomed people. Before that, there is, I think, the guys name as Commander Maurice, the DOW Portman. He was this explore slash pervert who would go to these I'll ends and dry these guys up and take pictures with them and do our cards, which it and weird sexual stuff too. Like measure their penises there there balls areas. So he he traveled around. There is right. There was a freak age. He allow people, sick and kidnaps him and there's a lot and then they will want to get rid of them, and now I think they probably have some stories that they pay
doubt about what happens when white people shop boats, so in that poor fuck out trying to bring bibles. You know they probably had this story about white people showing up in boats that ruin your life here as probably a part of their history in their war and there in other their legends that they passed out. Yes, so so you can. You can certainly understand why they wouldn't. On any one coming in anymore. We in there's only they think, there's only like thirty nine. These folks left the director sensibly left Africa sixty thousand years ago. It's crazy! It's there's not many of them and they don't even know if they d use fire like there's no evidence of their they're using fire, that they have some metal, that they got from a boat that sank and they have they did attack. Another boat is an instance of a boat being grounded and they got rescue.
Just in time when the nor sensible people were making their way to the boat. They extract them and got them out of their and they think that from that boat, They made some knives in some various things: there's, a guy named is is twitter name is respectable lawyer and he has a great chunk. Elegant twitter thread on a more is without Portman and ignore Sentinel Island, and he, like you, is he's, like you studied it for years. So he's really in depth the depiction there. It is what they are respectable, respectable, respectable law are respectable lawyers, the name but respect the law is his handle. It's an awesome. Little thread of Yoda Chancellor, there is more, is without Vidal Portman, big threat about this creep in some facts from his debt? This gentlemen's decade, long obsession with the island and you think about just during our lifetimes, we were kids. Your picture go that backing. Where lay the picture up eleventh corps, that's gonna shit. He do these guys. He had
poles in these weird outfits and. Weird homo erotic, Jeff, the guy was a freak yet so we think back to when we were kids, there were lots of people that were still not contacted were still living traditional life. Now there's barely any right as a huge story. If you find a small group in the Amazon that have not been contacted yet so things have changed incredibly fast and I dont think we know what that means per pupil. Yet is just all happened so fast. I it's a bummer because in its also confusing cause, I don't I act see about ways I guess it wouldn't be better if they got education and wouldn't it be better if they got medicine and wouldn't it be better, if you gave them ipads filled up at porn, not really, but wouldn't, wouldn't it be better
if they advanced Laden, have three quarters of the kids die as infants and right now, the stuff it goes along with these sort of nomadic tribal people yeah it's, but it's also cool to see like when you see those guys with the painted bodies. Point the bows and arrows like those folks are probably living exactly the same way people ten thousand years ago- and it seems like nor have any metal it seems like are using the natural materials to make their bows and arrows, and there the covering themselves pigments they make from plants, was really fascinating. Yeah, but I don't live with yeah right some of the answer,
yeah. I don't know you're you're gonna of reminded me of our discussion earlier about the people indigenous people in the Arctic and when european explorers first got to Greenland in and bath and island places like that. The locals basically didn't have any heart disease, because their marine dire was so protective of the heart. All of these the three fatty acids, all the wonderful things you get from fish, and so here they had one of the healthiest riots in the world and then in the now's. Now still has those healthy elements, but it also has unhealthy elements because of the way that we ve polluted the world. So it's kind of the same sort of change where, where things, dramatically different today than they were not very long ago. It's crazy that we have a double whammy to write that pesticides, and then they get all our vices as well in the native Americans same thing in terms of the vices and how its it's such a it's, a bummer.
It's really so anything about alcoholism, amongst native american populations and and also you know anyway, it's ask miles, or so so many different folks at have problems with all these things that we brought to. Them. You know, what's in it ruins our understanding of their health, because I you're saying like the low instances of heart disease in like it's that was confusing to but his like waiting with its focus on eat any vegetables yeah. This is kind of incredible. Very very few diseases know cancer, no heart disease, yes, a Dewey Greens, tradition lay by how they get it it just in the summer of as a short summer season, they collect plants and they collect also aquatic vegetation in the inner title zone. And then they save that throughout the year, but essentially you're right the reading very little. In the way of vegetation compared to what we normally rightness a salad or whatever. Almost their entire diet is
Meeting the ocean, it is pretty amazing You were also in your book and in that context you guys brought up Fritz harbour. And that he's a guy that I've talked bonds pack has multiple timescale. I listen to a radio lab podcast where they did was think the protests, called good in evil, but it was based highlighting people that have amazing things, but also awful things and he's like literally the best examples, because he was being was going to be awarded the Nobel Prize for this, method of extracting nitrogen from the atmosphere at the same time whose wanted for crimes against humanity, s right, which is pretty pretty bankers. In fact, here
the only Nobel Prize in the Sciences ever contested. There were french scientists who refuse to accept a Nobel Prize that year because he was getting the Nobel Prize so explain why people it. So the back story of this is that the the two greatest physical chemists in the world before world, where one were fritz, Harbour and Walter nursed, both in Germany and Germany, had the best chemistry in the world, the best physics in the world, the best biology and well. There was the highlight of science around the world and harbour and nursed were re. Seen each other to see you could be the first one to extract usable amounts of nitrogen from the air to make fertilizer to make ammonia, and they were too there are playing around with incredibly high pressure is incredibly high. Temperatures and harbour got there first, and so he figured out how to do this and that really averted world hunger.
As before. Nitrogen could be extracted from the air. The air is eighty percent natures, and so before we could pull that out of the air. Fertilizers came mostly from collegiate deposits in northern chile. They had to be the old bird drop in some things that had to be their accumulated over noisy years had to be shipped to wherever you wanted to do your farming and also even people, would they would use remnants from battlefields human corpses for fertilizing. So we in a situation where the world was constantly hungry, people were starving every year because of a lack of food and harbours, that problem, so that initiated the Green Revolution, the mining of nitrogen from the air, the making of artificial fertilizers, and so that was dungeon a few years before World WAR, one and when world, where one broke out the Kaiser. First aside,
notes to develop chemical weapons for the german military and he failed. He he was unable to make effective. Chemical weapons. We don't know whether he was unable, because he was one of the two greatest chemists in the world. It seems unlikely to me that he couldn't figure it out or whether he just didn't want to do it, so he purposely failed. So when he failed, harbor had just succeeded in his assignment for the german military I am making an effective anti freeze. Further german military vehicles are operating in the winter fighting against Russia, and so they they had this problem that had to be solved and harbour salted of making any freeze. So the Kaiser assigned harbour the task of developing chemical weapons for the german military and he started working with chlorine, gas and chlorine gas, because it's it's heavy, so few release it I'll stay near the ground. It's completely lethal and started testing it, and in fact his
system was my great grandfather, James, Frank and and frank and other scientists would put on gas mass and they would expose themselves to these these chemical weapons and figure out how effective the gas mass were, how effective the They are the self about this off tested amusing, credibly dangerous, as you can imagine so. Through these tasks, harbour figured out that you need a slight slight breeze to deliver where this weapon, if you could see grass pending in the wind, it was too strong, wind, and so then they they went to Belgium to the battle front in Belgium and wait until the wind was just right and then they release declaring gas from cylinders. Thousands of cylinders, then this this gas just started marchioness way slowly towards the british lines, and it was
mostly british colonial troops, Algerians and and british soldiers, and at first the though, though, on the british soldiers started, firing their weapons into the game, So the soldiers on the german lines had never heard so much gunfire in the war, as happened when that gas was coming to them. They try to stop it by shooting machine guns and everything they had. Of course, I wouldn't stop it and then some of the troops fled some of the troops charged into the gas in those died. So there. Probably ten thousand people died, soldiers who died immediately and that tens of thousands of casualties, and that was the beginning of that was a first use of weapons of mass destruction, and it was the beginning of the modern use of chemical weapons and wore a horrific,
way to die, to rent horrible way to die, and so and however, actually he, after that, victory at I'm, not sure if I'm pronouncing it correctly, you'll be Yr pes in Belgian, where that battle took place after the victory there. He and his colleagues celebrated at their home and his wife went outside with his service revolver and shot herself, and they had killed herself in front of their son, Herman She was completely opposed to the use and development used chemical weapons. That was part of it, but also she was a prominent chemist herself. She gave it up to marry harbour,
and he was also haven't dalliance with his future wife. So there are lots of things going on, but she killed herself. He left tat very night to deploy gas weapons on the eastern front against the Russians, and you have to thirteen year old son alone with his dead mother's dead man. Yet, and so then he fought using the same tucking, some used your front and then they develop mustard gas in his lab, which was much more lethal. Then the chlorine base. You know the original or in gas and after that, a whole series of other chemical weapons. So by the by the end of the war, both sides about a quarter of the artillery had chemical weapons in it, which is incredible right. You thinking about this battlefield is to complete chaos and a quarter of the weapons flying over those trenches was chemical. You know speaking of pollutants,
And wore an antenna goes up. There was this area that we were talking about once in the podcast, that's the size of Paris in France that is uninhabitable because of munitions. A thing is from World WAR Ii. And there's so much unexploded munitions in so many bombs were dropped, and so much chemic. Who's, got released into the environment in the atmosphere and into the soil and everything that its uninhabitable. It's an honor This area yesterday first time that I went out to work in their relations in the chain of islands. Go off of Alaska. I flew out there with a couple of other biologist everyone else on the plane were munitions, people they are going out there to look for unexploded ordnance, because the Japanese invaded the Lucian Islands during World WAR, two as you only american soil, taken over by a foreign power and that's
and that's how the warrant deletions happened. The reason why there's a road from the law of forty eight to Alaska, as U S army, built the? How can the Alaska canadian Highway to get the military up there to fight the Japanese, and so when I flew out there, this time the military was giving the I went back to the Alley tribe from whom they had taken it, and they had to find, though unexploded ordnance, all these bombs and things that were left there Oh, we were told, look when you're during your biology up there. Please! Let us know if you buy me ordinance, we had JP us is with us. As we are doing the science we found a lot of unexploded ordnance and just marked everything with cheap. Yes gave it to the military service. Go on. What's a lot, you know you come across bomb to a camel, come across even things like the Ramos stakes, those those pikes they was set in the ground in the grass. We can see them so that when forces come in, they get impaled on these things, and I, and so the grasses tall there and and and
obviously we are worried about their so you're you're, going through parting, the grass or they have these angled spikes yeah, that to try to catch people walking through or the soldiers charging up from the beach every get impel US bags. However, there a lot of the spikes but you'd also find find bombs, not just from what. Or two, but then afterwards in the cold war Particular island eight act became a very important navy site, and What war to a deck island actually was the largest community in all of Alaska. There are sixty five thousand genes station there. Can you imagine out in the middle deletion chain and
that was the staging ground for the american Armada, then attacked the japanese fleet and fought together, Japanese out of the elections, so, given that there are sixty five thousand soldiers are and during the war and after the war is over important, cold war, military base thirst just incredible stuff. There we found these bunkers dead, that you know you could go in there. What military wasn't there anymore? You go in. These bunkers are flooded with water and there's still beer sitting on the counter there still plates of food from decades ago that are just sitting. There were no. Jimmy pull up some photos of these bunkers yeah. Why that's wild? So when you say you found a lot of unexploded or what is it.
Enter our military barracks over the tribe went back to this island. You have a hundred hundred twenty people, maybe go back and they get to choose from housing that used to how sixty five thousand people it was the farther. West Mcdonald's in the world- I just saw you- go by their it as its not there anymore, but there was a mcdonnel. Here there was the farthest west in the world, because his island is just a couple of degrees from the international fund. The hemisphere creepy is my dolls. They set up towels out furthermore, I guys really well yeah the images of the no goes on for answers and say likely assize those ordinary tat when you say You found a lot of unexploded ordnance like how much well maybe, as bomber bomb at every hour or so as the rest, oh
as there was a lot they trained out there for decades, it wasn't just from the war was from all the Cold war military training. So how many those workers eventually accidentally going off any of them, but it's been cleaned up, so the military cleaned everything up and that, as far as we know, there's no more unexploded ordnance hours. We know yet airports as opposed to you go to places where minds are you know that's a million tonnes or dangerous, no idea, but these things are on the surface you can see them. Can they use light are to find my own in you know, because that's one of them, they're using in these allow these jungle environments to I doubt law civilizations, isn't that core maison now highly kind fascinated by that, like the mayan ruins that they find that way, you're completely underground and under the rain forest. Now it's all over and you know go down to those places like in police, and you see this pristine rain
first is actually not a national reinforce. If you look at what species the trees are there, a lot of them are species that the Mayans cultivated yeah right. They wanted those trees there. So not the natural forest anymore. It's a human forest. There was made for humans. To have the food and medicine that they wanted. You that blew me away when I read that that a lot of the reinforces actually because people grew those plants spit civically and created a rainforest yeah, and then that reinforce in after civilization have well when you find that also they have these irrigation channels that they find with the light are when they realise all look at this there's grids. Yet like these. These these people, who lived there, and then I would show who those people were the young, the movie that came out a few years ago about the guy who found the gold city It was a few years ago about a traveler from England, from Britain from Great Britain
that had come down to the Amazon and he found This loss tribe, there is all this goal there, and is this an and any? And I think that the original guy have law city of sounds like a house. And Ford moved out of a long time. It does. It sounds like you, but it's not it's a fairly recent movie but as an argument were moving. I did see that I saw you. I did see that as ever we pull poached egg dig dig, did see the maritime economy was we become gold that was sort of like that? No, not quite it was another gentleman who was well known the lost city of something is based on a book and the boy. Was based on the real or you loosely based on the real life experts
or who went down there and eventually was killed. They think by cannibals was cannibalized everytime, typing and lost city gorgeous Dorothy and on how God? I can't believe. I don't remember you know what I have it on my when we look on my Itunes on my apple While my my movie out that I cannot remain in the law city of gold at it. They saw someone out there and I'm knows what it is or there is also the city of gold. So I know that at least as a popular culture of anyone you'll ever meet. That's amazing! I'm happy, for you also know what is that work? It's from recently, that's the thing. I'd feel like a note talking about, but I bet you do. What is that? Damn it it was, it was pretty. Decent havens happened,
We're not gonna find it either and I hear ago gave Z dad, I was gonna, say world war, Z, yeah might bob. I know that's not right the lost city of Z, that's it! That's the dude, so, is this actually kind of interesting movie about this guy who goes down there in the eye dear, is there was a city that existed and then, by the time he had returned. I think the theory is that european explorers had given these people diseases and so parks and the like wiped out like enormous swathes of the population almost instantly within you know, ten years there was nothing left and then the jungle overtook whenever civilization they had and then, when you know we're going back in looking out at through lied. Are that's what we're saying we're seeing hundreds. Years later that there is very little evidence and that's actually
exactly what happened when when Europeans came over with slaves, they brought over typhus. They brought up yellow fever then run over malaria There was one year and fifteen hundred when two million indigenous Mexicans died from typhus and these, all brought over from from by Europeans and one year later, one year, two million for two million people in Moscow. Indigenous people died from typhus and These were people who, were, you would say, they're epidemiologically, naive to the disease, so they people colonize the Americas from Asia, whatever twenty thirty thousand forty thousand years ago, and they hadn't experienced these disease in that entire history, so they had no resistance to them. So when yellow fever came over when Influenza came over when all of that it just wiped out these populations, and so that's why Europeans were able to conquer the Americas so quickly, because the people were dead mostly before the battle could even take place. Most of the population being wiped out
and this happens, you know even more recently like Saint Lawrence Island, where I do a lot of work in the Barents Sea in the nineteen eighteen influenza epidemic, the spanish flu epidemic that wiped out most of the island. I think there were There were something around eighteen villages. Now, there's two, so it's it's! I that was only a hundred years ago. Papers done when they find out that ninety percent of the native Americans were killed in this country are killed by disease yeah. That's that's an amazingly horror, horrific number. Ninety percent imagine a disease. I came. I mean we're we're all very upset about covert. Rightly so, but covert is very small disease in comparison to what happened, the native Americans, it's nothing compared to these other diseases. You look at them mortality rate as of influenza coming true and coming eighty ninety percent of the people, that's it makes covert. Look like nothing so
how is malaria connected to colonials. So that's a really great question Malaria is actually killed more people than any other disease in human history Origin of that is when we found ten thousand years ago, when people started at culture culture, then people are clustered around water sources, because you need water to grow crops to have a relatively dense population of people around water sources. The mosquitoes are vectors, malaria The nautilus which in Greek means good for nothing, is actually name before it is discovered to be the vector of malaria, and so. Hilarious, been an epidemic proportion, disease for humanity for about ten thousand years since the origin of agriculture, then, as People moved around the malaria moved with them in a eighteen, twenty eight. I think it was two french Camus extracted quinine and some show nine,
from the sun shone a plant which came from Peru and the indigenous people of Peru. Had already been using this plan to treat with they called relapsing fever, which is malaria, a fever, the comes and goes and comes and goes, and the first European to use it was the the via their Peru. The spanish Viceroys wife was treated with this. To treat hurt cure her of malaria now, as in the fifteen hundred, so Jesuits brought in China Bark from Peru to Europe, but it took a couple of hundred years before french scientists, were able to extract two of the four active ingredients in the bark which is Quinn ON and Sancho nine, and they then we're able to use that to diagnose malaria and also to treat malaria and once I was,
treatment available for malaria, then not much happened in terms of how it led to separation of people until the it was discovered that an awfully spectres, malaria, Sir Ronald Ross, made that discovery in Indiana at Nine these once our discovery was made. It was quickly realized that there is a disease reservoirs. All of these diseases ever reservoir, typically its animals to carry them. They can affect people, but also people who can in fact other people and some people don't get sick. Even with cove. As some people may be, half people don't get sick. And they serve as a reservoir for the disease. So one scientists realised that there's a reservoir for the disease actually discovered in Africa that children act as a reservoir from malaria, so they get a more the nine form, a malaria typically and in in Sub Saharan Africa. The people also have genetic resistance to malaria, because the many people are heterozygous for single cell Jean, so they have won one normal copy. The circle
I'll gene and one one mutation for the gene which gives them resistance to malaria. So when, when the, honest realise that children were there were the reservoir for native children were the reservoir for malaria and there's a treatment for it. They segregative european population, the colonists from the Africans in EU even destroyed indigenous Hudson, are too close to the european colonies homes, and that was the origin of of modern said, geisha modern in that lady times, early nineteen hundreds of segregation and in Africa and Colonial Africa it started with trying to separate the source and malaria that the african children from the European colonies wow. But It also plays out in many other places. So, even before it was known that what did Miss
He does vector malaria, you, you can find cultural differences. You gotta malaria regions where those mountains and you'll find are the people who live in the mountains have a different language than the people live in the valleys, and ever from culture, and they separate from each other and the only time the people, the mountains, would interact with people, never ways was in the non malaria season. They wouldn't come down when there was a malaria, so there are very of a disease. That's that's physically, culturally separating these, these people from the mountains and from the valley also in America. It also entrenched slavery, so win win the Europeans first and as domestic they first and slaved indigenous population, and then an indentured servants, her Europeans, but both the Europeans and the indigenous population were getting wiped out by these diseases. They didn't have resistance to them to the yellow fever, the malaria
all of these other ones, and so when they started bringing over african slaves black african slaves. These were people who had natural resistance to malaria because they had the sickle cell gene and they also had acquired immunity to yellow fever, because a typically would get it as a kid when it's less the fact is less pronounced, and then they have resistance to it for the rest of your life. So the resistance of the african slaves to these diseases entrenched slavery because they were the valuable workers. So they that really made this continent spiral down. Into slavery. It also lead to the cultural sup separation between the north and the south, because in the south it was much more malaria than in the north in the United States, and so that meant FED the the working population there, the slaves they were. They were more viable because they had the resistance to malaria and yellow fever and so drove a lot of the.
Cultural divide in this country. That's insane! I had no idea. I had no idea malaria so prevalent in this country. I have a couple questions first, going way back to extract Ding quinine and moves either in China. How did they use that to diagnose right so before that? Nobody to tell the difference between malaria and all the other febrile illnesses. Lots of illnesses caused fever. How do you know what illness it is if they're all causing the fever? You just can't tell you, could tell with yellow fever, because people get yellow fever, they have a black vomit they make, and so that's why it's off the disease often called black vomit because of the development. Both malaria can't tell and so you can tell once they had quinine it's in China because it could treat someone with a fever and if they recovered, it was malaria. If they didn't recover, it was a different view. Browser miss. How did they figure that out how they figure out that these two extractions from Plants- do they know to them an origin of like what charitable figured out that that would treat
where I saw the origin actually is going back to what we discussed before it was that the indigenous people in approving Andy's, who were using this plant trees zebra. How did they figured out you know just like call the other showman kind of medicinal treatments is over centuries, adona crazy. It's amazing! When you think about it, like you, you taught I've. I've spent time with with champagne and reinforce both in Africa and Latin America pupils the real deal. You know where they have, thousands of different plants are used for things and they know every single plant. They know every single. I actually hired one when I was working in Kenya, one thousand nine hundred and ninety two to teach me the plants of the rainforest, because I had a I had a translation book. I was working in a in a part of western Kenya. The tribe is called the Luia five and they had. I had a translation book from their language to English, and so I had him teach me all the plants and their language, and then I could figure out what it was and that's how I was able to work on the plants that I was working on. There.
It's amazing that there's a lot of people that in the western world are highly educated. Would look at those people in terms of you know like what what their knowledge bases and kind of like dismiss it like their shaman? Okay, like what what does that mean like what are they doing they're talking to treat her again is. It is when you think about the fact that they figured out somehow or another thousands of years ago to use these things to treat malaria yeah. Now, the question I was, I did I know that my errors that prevalent in the United States and what did they do to eliminate it right couldn't eliminate malaria until it was discovered that then off mosquito is the vector for malaria once that in the very first eliminations actually took place in Egypt and in Cuba, so that was nineteen o to basically and so the United States com her Cuba and the spanish American WAR, and as we took over she. Then many of our soldiers were getting yellow fever. So the united
military set up the yellow fever. Commissioner for scientists who into took you both led by Walter Reed, and they very quickly figured out that eighty subject I and other species and misguided was the vector for yellow fever. Once they figured that out, there was a guy named Corpus who is hired to solve this problem and what he did as they went through Havana and they broke open every part that health water disease, both eighties, Egypt, I and which factors, yellow fever and chicken gooey. I am- and I was the other one- there's another nasty tropical diseases factor by a decision.
Anyway they that that mosquito and in office mosquito they breed and stagnant water. So they started breaking open all of the containers of stagnant water, anything that was too big screen they treated with kerosene. In the space of a couple of months. They completely got rid of yellow fever from Havana, which had had yellow fever every single year and killed thousands of people every year, and they got rid of almost all the malaria about eighty percent of the malaria by getting rid of the breeding habitat once they accomplish. That gorgeous then moved. Over to the Panama Canal Zone, to the French and tried to build the Panama Canal, but they had so much mortality from malaria and yellow fever that they they they gave up, and so the United States bought the rights from ranch the French wanted to get out of there and get what they could out of it. We bought the rights from them. Go. This went through got rid of all the standing water to give it a malaria, yellow fever and that made-
so that we could finish the construction of the canal and then, of course, we we back these panamanian rebels to steal cat Panama from Colombia, because his part of Colombia create the new country of Panama so that we could have exclusive control of the canal zone once that was accomplished, is all between one thousand nine hundred and two and one thousand nine hundred and ten. Then we started eradicating these standing water sources in the United States and by doing that and treating them with what are called clika size, which are pesticides that kill larvae, mosquitoes so through drainage and through using a We got rid of malaria from this country, but if that is possible in America the. Why do we do we hear all this talk about genetically modified Mosquitos and using that cheap malaria in Africa? Is it just a span of at this scale of Africa is to massive no the problem,
is that the mosquitoes very quickly evolve. Resistance to the chemicals are we use so things like DDT was very effective for a few years, but then, then the mosquitoes evolve resistance and is no longer effective against malaria. The answer here and so on. In the United States, we were able, through our structure through our our ability to to drain the water enter and cover water and treat water, weary of the get rid of it. But not only the resistance but also like you're saying the infrastructure is hard and- and you have much more, that there you go to Africa'S- is the origin of malaria there's far more area there, this forded from varieties summit, some are more deadly than other, so it's it's a more. Difficult problem is still the number one killer of of of people as far as an infectious disease guns and single cell anemia, which is,
prevalent in America, with African Americans comes from the resistance to Malaria yeah. So what happened is theirs. There's Tiffany has taught me that so there's a gene dead, that's that relates to the shape of the hemoglobin and its carry oxygen and imitation in that gene is sickle cell gene that causes the. If you have two copies that mutation, one from mom, one from dad, it causes that you get the sickle shape and those people are anemic and typically don't live. But if you are the heterozygote we have one single cell mutation and one normal. You have a norm ability to carry oxygen, but the parasite. Its isn't, it is now I'm having one of these brain phrases that the Paris had the causes. Malaria in amoeba, like parasite, is not able to penetrate the hemoglobin. If you have that gene, so these people are protected from malaria, they have advised.
Bunch of that. And so it was a mutation. It was a random mutation that had this huge selective advantage for for the people who lived in his malaria regions than those of the people that were brought over slaves to the new world and and so of course, the genetics they bring with them and once there's no longer. Malaria here is not advantage to have that gene, because there's no malaria get sick with and If you're heroes, I goat and you marry someone else's errors, I got one quarter of your children will have six Zella Nemea they'll have that both of the mutate both of mutations that leads to this pretty terrible anemia condition. How much of an issue is that today is that still join issue, so it's more common among african Americans, like you're, saying because assert its imitation that arose in Africa, but is relatively rare to have the disease, because, because you have to have to pee,
all who each hour carriers to. I too have children together before you'll, get someone with relatively rare now in comparison to the past as everything its relative they rare in this country because there's a lot of intermarriage and I as a relative Reputation is just more common among african Americans than among other groups, and you could take years you're. Whatever disease, you would like. You'll find different ethnic groups. Have that disease like I'm, jewish and and we have A lot of tax disease and among Jews among french Canadians. What is I didn t sacks yeah? It's a terrible disease causes the kid to die when their three or four years old and is it is caused by single recessive mutation. And so, if you have to carriers who have kids, then a quarter, their kids will have that disease and death
completely lethal, so common among relatively calm among Amish, among Jews of european descent and among french Canadians and those are the main groups, but you know you could take you could take whatever genetic disease you want. You find different nuts, groups have different frequencies of having that, and we have that a wheel of my family have that gene. We don't have anyone with the disease, but if you have that gene you have to then get your your spouse has to get tested to see if they have it as well. So you know if you might have kids with it. That's a really tough call if you both have it, but you both love each other right. So then do you have kids, your job, kids criteria. So is there a cure for sickles on email? Do they know how to stop that so
I don't know how they treat people with it. I I know there's treatments for anemia, but I know the people who have the disease. They get quite sick. So I'm not. I don't know more about it. I grew up with a guy who had it and he died from. It is a guy that I used to do. Martial arts with it was a real bummer cuz. He was just like really dynamic, just like super powerful athletic guy and then he would get really sick and they would come back and he be okay again and you get really sick again. Reoccurring thing with them when you're talking about eradicating, malaria in the United States, how they did that is it is it hundred percent eradicate or other occasionally cases of malaria in America. Now you can still get cases because there is still a lot of malaria in Latin America, and so you get these mosquitoes coming over that carriers of border crime yeah border crossings and they can start set up new breeding habitat and yet to treat it again and often, as has happened in I don't know, but I've had to go on
I don't. I do a lot of work in the tropics. I've had to take the medicine that you take to prevent getting malaria bunch time. And even our medicine it, the parasite evolves resistance to it so quickly. So we take one thing and go back. Six. Seven years later, we have to take a different medicine, because her already and some of the medicines make your insane to others. I really can make a year ago insane on my friend, Justin has got malaria several times. He said three times actually and one time He got it because he he wasn't even in Africa, he malaria must have been dormant in his system, somehow got really sick and then, from being really got malaria again, yet certain recurring, it doesn't have to be a new attack Yet he he runs fight for the forgotten is a charity building wells for the pygmies, and so he takes regular checks the Congo and oftentimes. Therefore, months at a time and his eyes caught malaria multiple times there and he was Taking this one medication in very high doses and
This is one of the medications that the military was have real problems of soldiers, getting very sick from this medication, and he was taking many. Times higher doses? Then the soldiers were getting. Second, he want of getting really fucked up from that too. It was having network when I was young. Yes, why took that when I went to african early Ninetys and a lot of people get Vertigo from some people get psychotic from it? For me, I just had strange dreams have was what I noticed it really bizarre. During my recent day, Foley, whose on his radio with May who's the nicest got in the world, let you couldn't be a sweeter guy was on that because he family was going to Africa and he had a meet them there, and so he was taken this anti viral drugs, and I guess you not for drink when you're on stuff either. Someone told me that you did you get factor for me too, but we used to make these
black and tans are in the rainforest. You bring out the you could get Guinness stout in Kenya and you can also get tusker this kenyan light beer, as we could make black and tans out of that, and so Did you do that, while you're on Math, Laguna, yeah and I'll tell you a funny story is when, when win We would you about once supply run a month out of the forest to get stuff and it's a full day to get to the village and get what you want get back. So we wanted to get beer. So we went into this village and- and I went into the local shop and I like to buy a case of Guinness in a case of Tucker and the guy said where your bottles. So what are you talking about you? So where your bottles, you have tat bottles to turn him to get to have to turn in your old bottles to get the new beer like, I haven't bottles, so I can say beer at how this guy's an idiot. I went to the next shop and ass. I want to buy a case of tasker and a case against us and he said where you're bottles went through the whole thing get on which a third shops fainting again like will? How does this start where'd? You get your first. So
find that really just got to be a solution to this end it that they're all saying there's not a nothing we can do so. Then I said: could I buy a case of bottles off of you? Empty bottles of tusker and a case of empty bottles of Guinness is like sure So I bought these bottles and got in this that I care I'd like to buy a case of tasks in a case against us and yes, who that's how I was able to get the beer. Making the data and sort that out for you yeah tendencies. By bottles. Nurse now is impossible, not capture, yes, The bottles from your grandfather, so so what was it like me, you taken the Malthusian and also drinking- or maybe that's. I had to wear dreams. I don't know because I didn't know you weren't supposed to drink here. You just told me this for the first time. Well, I might be wrong. Maybe Dave is on another medication, but we were at this party. These weird press parties that they would have these press junkets, where the actors from the show would mingle with the present.
People be drinking alcohol, they would come by and just ask you questions and it we have tape. Recording your face is really terrible idea spell, especially the back Dennis's pre internet. You kind of get away with doing a pre internet but pre social media, preliminary really hadn't been exploited to the full extent yet, and so some guy came up. I asked you a question. He took his tape, recorder and shoved in his drink. Tom, the fuck off and heard of day fully behaviour and was like yeah? yet the guy and I had to stand between him and the guy. I had a real I'm unlike ok. What is I don't ask who you survive. African was doing there. He was like a great save unlike psychotic, and I had do literally stop him. I don't know he's gonna do anything. You would do anything but no it was. It was at the point where I was like Hey sorry, like breaking up these two and then the next day he had no recollection of it he's like I don't remember what happened goes. I guess you're not supposed to drink when you have a sommelier.
Medication, or he just doesn't react well to some people have weird behavior on it and then they have to stop taking that the dreams are supposed to be really insane right, yeah. So that's what happened to me. I would just have these vivid dream is going on in, I can remember my dreams, but I I remember them first seconds when I wake up and then there than they're gone, but you know what, A dream and its feel so real and then you wake up and you're, not sure where you are right, and it was that kind of thing where every night it was just completely bizarre dreams and that's tough, is supposed to be toxic like it lingers in your system, right yeah. So I was there for three months, the first time and in the second time two and a half months- and I was getting a little uncomfortable taken about long people. Take it for much longer who but, on the other hand, again lemme get malaria through there and you don't take something: that's the problem and so on.
Do the other things were mosquito, repellent where a sleeves all of that, but there is just impossible to not get bitten by a mosquito, and so so that's why I take the point. What'd you guys use those dreams were just talking about the terms the use of stem cells, I don't know that is outside its really cool. It's it's great if you're in an area that has like for camping, if you're an area that has a lot of mosquitoes, I don't know how bad it is for you twenty things. I want to ask you we're actually talking about it. Just before cuz we were talking about doing podcast outdoors and Jamie is like we're, probably going to have a net like to try to keep the mosquitoes out in like what about a thermacell. And I said what may be asked frank- how bad the shit I've never heard of it. Thermos cells, it's a small device in the aid is a lifesaver if you're in especially have used them and Albert a witch Alberta mosquitoes don't know somehow another. They only have three months to live and they fucking go HAM, Alaska, the exact like Alaska and dumb. It's a
Vice and you have these little like sheets like squares, it's an. U slide. These sheets here goes its repellent authoring, do no others Alistair as a threat. Our friend it's a synthetic copy of a natural pellet found in how is probably acres, there is progress. Remarried lay I'll yachts comes from it, so so this one of the very first insecticide was derived from the chrysanthemum plan is pirates rights from and on in. So actually it relates back to the world war. Two era we are talking about before, because there were. There were two too portent things going on with preventing malaria before the advent of DDT, there were the chrysanthemum derived by retried insecticides, who these are naturally current from the flower, their extracted from the flower. Imagine is labour intensive and is expensive and then in China Plantation, so you could you could you could gross
China. Trees, extra use, the bark to make the queen quinine treat yourself ninety per one of the world's in China Supply was on a single island and the Japanese took it over right after the invaded Pearl Harbor, so they then held. Basically, the world Since China Supply, there was a little bit in Vietnam that had they started growing there. They they took that over and then the the supply of quinine that was in storage, must have it was held in Amsterdam, and the Nazi sees that so the Americans didn't have this. They did not apply, anymore. They didn't have access to the plant or to the extracted drug product, four trillion, malaria and At the same time, those labour unrest in Kenya, and so the chrysanthemum crop from Kenya was basically non existent at that time. So? The? U S, army, prioritize. We need to make a synthetic version of of quinine to treat from
area, and we also need synthetic insecticides because a pie, reference or non aren't. I retorted are not available anymore, so they ended up going through thousands of chemicals looking for the right thing and they settled on a chemical. The Germans had actually developed called after after brain and it The soldiers didn't like it because it because what they call the actor brain tat would make you come a yellow. And some people also mean psychotic on just like we're talking about with math, look when and then there was a rumour going around it and make you impotent, and so a ruling all day and so the soldiers you know they wouldn't take it so the Eu Asylum, we were losing nine nine troops out of the malaria in the first couple years of the war in the South Pacific nine out of ten nine out of ten Rowena Hospital with malaria and so you know how can you find a war? That's why we doubt the Baton death March. We lost that battle, because our soldiers were sick with malaria. They were so sick that
that they were not allowed to leave their patrol duty and lesser temperature was above a hundred two degrees, because everybody was sick. And so so. We we tested these chemicals. We came but without being the soldiers wouldn't take it. So then the? U S, military, decide. Ok, we need a really good advertising campaign to convince soldiers to take it. The most effective long is actually developed by an austrian commander who took a couple of skulls and put him on top of a sign and said these men didn't take their after brain and that's what happens, but they also started sane. Malaria will make you impotent, and that was what can this paper. So U S? Army are recruited, doktor shoes, theatre geese all too to make these and you can find all the other real doctors do so wrote the book, the guy with the books he he made advertised it's for an insecticide called the flit gun which was based on these chrysanthemum products, and then when did he came out incorporated DDT too, that you can find it?
His adds online, these beautiful cartoons with the insecticide, but he also made the U S: Army propaganda posters to get people to take their atropine. Well, find that no. You were why, That's crazy! I anointed Doktor Seuss was involved in anything other than running kids book. Oh yeah, he was wow. Look at that. What this country needs is a good mental insecticide. Yes, sir, if you, if you Google, Doktor Cs Inflict Guy Mary concern see some of them. There were the flint, and now one is before dignity was incorporate. He has such a unique style of drawing is not crazy, yeah. Well, an irish visits his it must be his. I didn't knows his illustrations as well. It must be mean that. Is so unique, like that style of like creature that he would draw when beast
this can't stand one blast. How do you think a bug can last when someone says quick, Henry the flip, spread and posters would be an. I think for anomalies was the mosquito that bit who would suck your blood and give you give you a visa. Yet if you have to look at that. How what a weird style of illustration that guy developed like it's so recognisable. Is. He was this on hand, but somebody threw it in his high or it I'll look at that. Well, that's crazy! That's really interesting! So the is this chrysanthemum a derivative that they use for the Thermos hell? Do you think that's does bad for you, so it is toxic in the sense that it kills mosquitos and if you have to
if it does, it can be bad for your health, depends on what kind of Joseph so using is less toxic than many other things depends on whether using natural version or the synthetic version. There's a synthetic version call promethean, which is more toxic than natural. And so I am not sure whether using that product then, and it depends on the concentration that their use is just a fine missed, but boy mosquitoes Workin hated yet like what I was thinking as if we were outside here goes owl our threatens are toxic to cats. Good thought tat I could find specifically about it, but it is probably a low. All of volume is what my guess would be based off of just the way I actually love cats who just playing games kids, but if we were outside and we're doing we're doing Spock as outside of this table, we had a firm, so cookin right here with the good it wouldn't get us. Will you literally be it's like a halo that mosquitoes will, you would see them come in and go and then each take off
It's amazing yeah. So that's going back to the origins of pesticides right because the very first pesticides were from the chrysanthemum flower tobacco tobacco tobacco patrol. I thought it was a good pesticide yeah, we're in fact it there's a hawk category. Pesticides now thither artificial version of tobacco, the call NEO nicotine noise and are the most used insecticide in the world now so First, there was the things like DDT. The organic farming insecticides were the most in the world up until they were abandoned, mostly world nineteen seventies and then they're gonna, our Ghana, phosphates became the most used insecticide in the world, those were the ones derived from the Nazi nerve gas weapons and those reach their peak around ninety ninety nine. They were the most used now. The NEO nicotine or which are those who threaten version of nicotine, so nicotine is lethal. If you have too much as highly toxic has just the right amount of cigarette right, but if you have too much as we thought how, with the highly,
lethal to insects, and so how do they use it as it has an insecticide they spray ray and asked a vigorous grace. If right have you heard of colony collapse, disorder that yeah yeah, so poor, the reason why be and honeybee, honeybee and and and and Bumble bee colonies are collapsing around the world is because of the Munich containers are highly toxic to he's so they have their own environmental problems, but there are the most used insecticide in the world now there's an issue with cell phones and bees as well right signal scramble them. I don't know I don't. Specula or what? But they believe there's something about the particular frequency of cellphone signals that might disturb a bees we like they might be able to hear signals or perceived those signals that destructs there
natural understanding of the world, you could imagine because young animals that, like we're talking about before the reason, the magnetic field are using polarized light they're using these in so many different signals, You can take a a homing pigeon and you can put it on a turntable and cover its heads. Her can't see anything and fly if the United States to Europe, let it go and it will fly right back to work. Came from so can you imagine, be more confused and now you're spinning around, I can't see anything leading to school right on back our cell phones, killing bees have us false meme spread false. I dont think that arms them by Right, but that's what I said: I'd never rather was killing them, but I read that it was disturbing their sense of their ability to communicate and proceed the world. That does not harm them. What are they doing things they put a phone specific on a hive and and testing and ok Yes, cellphone radiation harms bees. Swiss researcher play cellphones next to hives, unrecorded, would have
and when the phones were active, the bees emitted piping sounds the high pitched tones that spread the message. Through the collie- that something disturbing is going on piping, to be a signal for the only the swarm, but that doesn't that happen here and the researcher let the phones goes on long twenty hours. He did report the Collie didn't return to a slight normal state from many hours after the phones are switched off and removed, but that's a phone being right there, I wonder of its, if that's the actual electrical and you coming over the phone or, if that's the signal itself that is receiving what yet. I wonder to like we guys rail per hour phone and our front pocket so. What is it doing to anything tat? So I already have kids are not having more kids, but what about young people? Young men who were who are doing, I don't know anything about it, but you have to wonder why I've people
talking about Cheryl Crow was speculating that she got a brain tumor from doing press on a cellphone all the time and like maybe I mean how do you didn't copy of How do you find that out? Like yeah sorry, it sort of like this whole chemical history, we're talking about where you make us wonderful, new chemical dead this house, malaria kills the it kills him mosquitoes transmit malaria and yellow fever, so once we do why don't we just spread it all over the world without having any idea of what am I? What else am I do? That's how I feel too, about the idea of genetically manipulated mosquitoes, what it? What kind of chain is that going? into a family. How do we know what, if you kill all the mosquitoes of this? There is the question: why do we need mosquitos and what's function? Do mosquitoes play in the food chain,
Do you want to find out what you and, if you think about it, the mosquito species adventure, these deadly diseases only a few of them most, the mosquitoes don't carry diseases, and then you have all the birds at a rate of mosquitos right. Who knows what could happen at a just its wooden, here we never learn like Wales is not just America. It's in Australia brought in cats to deal with all sorts of animals that they had over there and another crazy, fair oaks population rather knowingly, and then click that and then he's got this proof of talks and on their head and native marsupials either may die another extinct her or an endangered species list. We never learn that. In fact, the came to it, doesn't even eat. The cane grabber was brought over to eat because thereupon, the stock and came to those on the ground, so We don't learn even with natural animals. We talking about like that when third, using instead of size using spiders and bring them into areas. What.
You bring in a man like you are in effect, if, if you're talking about invasive species, the species ass in one place to another, if you're on islands, like the whole islands, invasive species are the number one cause of extinction You're, not an islands, are usually number to remember three after habitat loss of things, but on islands, your number one, the highest extinction rate known extinction of anywhere in the world, isn't why in the wine islands and its because wine islands? They rose out of the sea from nothing, so the species that are there are typically there and nowhere else they go extinct, their third globally extinct and it's all. These animals are abroad and the pigs, the cats, the mongoose, the rats in other their wiping The native species have you ever been to learn. I I have here, have you seen access dear their yeah? It's bananas, the craziest invasive population ever seen him anywhere, they have thirty thousand here on an island, a three thousand people yeah and they hire snipers
At night I mean it's, it's amazing, yes, are we we went to Lanai on one trip. I've been Hawaii many times because it's just a straight shot from Alaska. It's very easy to get there from Alaska same timezone, when I was a kid and no longer is because Alaska got moved in our east for business reasons, but We used to go there a lot and when our kids were little, we were on I and we want to go for a bike ride, and so we just ask around. If anyone have a bike, we can use. We rented this bike for our oldest and it was too big for him and and so well. Cable will start and I spoke ride so we're biking along in this flat thing and then there's this hill. This, the steepest till you ve ever seen in your life, is cool. And he goes down this hill and then is his his The bars are wobbling like this any just splattered and is like Skin left and I read- grab him- and I was just running for the four there's one clinic is running for the clinic-
is one of the situations where your ear adrenaline going and you feel like you know you could do anything. My literally got to the clinic caught him on the table and collapse, because. I couldn't have carried him. Another ranch- and it didn't have been this wonderful thing because it was just it was just road rash right. They treated had pulled the rocks out of him and everything. But then everyone online, I knew a sandy was the big news on the night and everywhere revamp USA, all yours you're the kitty who wiped out on this by a virus into their house, and we ended up having this fantastic trip because of that bike. Accident wow, that's, lemons to lemon air situation. As look it's a beautiful, and the people really nice. It's I love it there, but it's a strange place. When you see the amount- and I think there are given as a gift to King command air by the king of India like in eighteen, hundreds and they just they're everywhere. It's not like you see him at night. That's what's really not when you drive and you just see like thousands of eyeballs.
Staring at you on the side of the road, yeah no need of mammals there. So now is nobody yeah and Delicious yeah telling the better the best here, Indeed, in the world there are incredible, but in vain two species like we really never have learned our lesson in terms of bringing them to places where they don't fit into the ecosystem, whether it's what's going on right, now, in Florida with I mean I think they just extracted and killed somethin like fire. Thousand python from the Everglades they didn't put a dent in it and the Everglades, there is study were, they went and they were true. And the populations of deer and raccoons and all these different animals over the past couple decades and there most all gone, there's none left like they couldn't find it raccoons, it can funny dear deer, there's almost. Nothing left and Python now eating alligators, there's so many I found the Everglades an off. Just some assholes. Just released
Why won't notice that emerged throughout the swamp that should be fine day I'll, be there Well, that's why it's an impossible problem, because all it takes is one person he says: oh yeah. I think we need a northern pike in this. Like I'm going to talk to me and the next thing you know: that's the only fish has in the and then they caught cannibalize yeah. It's weird We're so weird that we don't learn from that that it takes so much. For us to get it into her head. That's about idea, one! More thing I wanted to talk to you about is quite a say and dumb I've. Read some things about. The dangers of life is eight, which is our round up, which is a very common pesticide, But one of the things that I read that I dont know if it's true that an issue. Some people believe in animals eating plants that have been sprayed with life who say like save you eat a cow,
wow. That's been grazing on grass or grains that has been sprayed with round up and that you could potentially develop gut issues. Because your body is reacting to the toxins. That's in the animal flush. From them eating this life is eight sprayed plant? Yes, I'd. Don't know the answer to that question, but it is the most common herbicide used in the United States has been banned in Europe, It would have been banned in this country, but for political reasons, it was because of pressure from their from a company that makes it and When do you think it would have been banned? What it was? It was slain to be banned at the end of the Obama administration, beginning the trumpet ministration than that was that was pulled off The regular was the evidence that was indicating that should be banned. I sold evidence of harming children and in
animal models in the laboratory of sharing toxic effects on animals in the ladder, the relator two things in children's health? So that's why the Europeans bandit. So the Europeans bandit because the children were getting it in what way we can get it from food surface residues left on food. You can get it from her lance. You can get it from water if you're in a place where it's getting into the water supply, you can get it from from if we're living in a place where a spin sprayed you'll get it that way and it's gonna be a kind of goes back to this issue. We were just talking about, we use so much of it like. If we go back to the story of DDT. Ddt would have been a wonderful public health tool to if, if we just used it for that, we probably could still.
I use it today against malaria and yellow fever if we had only just restricted its use for these public health emergencies, and you have a spot treatment here, because you have an outbreak of malaria spot tree me here because of yellow fever. We couldn't stop ourselves, so we put it in wallpaper in four nurseries so that babies wouldn't have flies on the wall we put it in paint, and we covered everything with his paint. We put it everywhere. If you went on an airline in the nineteen fifties and sixtys the flight attendant would walk down the aisle spraying. Ddt. What so, you wouldn't have to be bothered by any mosquitoes replies on on the flight. If that's the problem is, this is going from hears us precision tool that we should keep its awesome right. You want to you
Is this to stop an epidemic? Well, we can't we have to use it everywhere and then is no longer effective, because the passive evolve resistance is the same thing with these. With these services, like that, there's some uses for you could sale or are probably good like you have invasive plant species, and why were just talking about why this lie a lot of extinction? There is from invasive plants, so invasive plants, and they can kill it with round up they can plan the native plant and restore that forest. So this very small scale kind of precision use, but that's different than just broadcasting it everywhere, and then we all get exposed to it. So. Glad for say around up in America, is used for crops right. It's used. It's a herbicide, not ass well says evolved, awaited the way that I would define a pesticide is any chemical. This designed to kill a passed in this case. The past is a weed rates, are herbicide is a kind of pesticide and insecticide is a kind of pesticide fungus. Side is a kind of has set a rodent,
it is. A kind of pesticide is just pesticide is the general term for any chemical you're using to kill a particular passed in this case. The pester, the way and all weeds are either the competitor plants to our crops. Are we don't want them to grow? We want our crops to grow So we have emphasised a weird word to pest inside means, kill so brightly in the past? When it's a we, your scientific terms for a swim, turn exactly so what is a past asked is something we don't like. That's all it is. Is this living thing now living thing. I don't like we d D, legitimized it again in the past They Sprague life essayed to keep these these unwanted plants from growing and the poor, ass. They grow. Why don't? They react in a net why you're so on this a few. As far as the sum of the crops are actually genetically engineered so that they can handle the herbicide, so they are not damaged by the herbicide. The
is, and then they all compete in the past to grow that way. I'm some species are less damage by others by these services and I'm in She really interesting history that deals with warfare with his stuff too, because the herbicides were first developed at the beginning of World WAR Ii and the idea was back then we are plant hormones. Heart plants also have hormones that cause a plant to grow in the way that they're going to grow is. If you could make an artificial version of that plant hormone, you can make it grow too fast, so that it dies, and this was proposed to be used during World WAR Ii as a weapon to kill the the rice of the Japanese, so you can wipe out their food supply and so that so that they start and then they're obviously left
active at fighting if the starving after world war, two, it was actually used by the British and the Mullay peninsula, and then we used it at a massive scale in the Vietnam WAR in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia and Operation ranch had where we sprayed twenty million gallons of defoliants over the rainforest and well we are trying to do, is we were trying to wipe out the food supply the vehicle starving these people? and we are also de defoliant in the forest. So we can see the conference's from the air and, and that led to have you been a Vietnamese now so if you go to a hotel in cities are gone, is actually kind of a city within the city where they were. These people live her kids, whom we are sprain there. They have all these deformities. They have, they have missing lambs have deep. Form lambs have tremendous health problems, and these were kids who are in the womb when, in other mothers were, were sprayed with this. By the? U S military. They develop these horrible deformities. So
this kind of warfare, environmental injustice thing. It extends even to herbicide, which were used in war and because of that at the end of the Vietnam WAR, we actually signed a declaration forbidding the use of herbicide and warfare with, We forbid them in warfare, but we don't forget them for our own consumption right and the crops that we eat right and so we're not using the same chemical. Well there there are actually to chemical, ever used, an agent orange that are still in use today. Herbicide spent the process for creating them creates a less toxic compound. Now The problem is that were using so much of it,
and so is sort of like the DDT problem like you could get sprayed with tv kills. The the body las on you don't get typhus you're not harmed by even they are covered with stuff, but you're eating a day after day for years, you're going to be harmed by it and it's the same with wild life like we have a global decline of amphibians, going on and thirteen species are getting wiped out around the world and a lot of it has to have pesticides so intensively and are aquatic herbivores when their larvae and then their predatory terrestrial animals from there battles, so their effect by everything in the water they're affected by everything on the land and in their development. Screwed up. So you end up with males becoming females. You end up with all kinds of thyroid diseases from these various pesticides, so What exactly is round up doing to us and these genetically modified plants that except the round up that that don't have an issue with glad to say that are able to those thrive when their being spray by Clive say like what
kind of problems. Are we having digesting those things Well, a lot of concern is around the development of the brain for the child, and so that thousands of women and the young child the growing up. So a lot of these cuts calls are neurotoxic. Hence they affect brain development and actually the same with
the metals, we're talking about earlier, that the primary toxic problem with things like arsenic and mercury and you're gonna phosphates are other their nerve poisons there there neurotoxic gets so. The main concern is with children's development and, of course, if you mess with a children's brain its its permanent right here on this, like the lead, the lad problem, where I talked about this action, the very beginning, the book in the preface that dead, mislead, Thomas Measly Junior, was working on this engineering problem of how do you make it so automobile engines don't knock and in there are knocking at lower the power lowered the efficiency and he figured out if he added touch her left the lad to gasoline. You could make this engine that didn't internal combustion engine they wouldn't knock. He got lead poisoning in the development of the sum of the workers died from lead poisoning when they are developing this. This gasoline, they called it Ethel gasoline. They tinted. It read as marketing
and then for the next eight years. Millions of people reason let a gasoline the entire earth's atmosphere was was polluted with let a gasoline we have untold millions of children in the womb and in early development whose brains were permanently altered, IQ permanently degraded from this impulsivity permanently increased. You look at the Remember the crime wave in the nineteen eighties, and you talk to say that the police chief of New York City, no pulse a while? It was cracked it was, and we saw there with this zero tolerance policy. I think in a lot of scientist, think what actually led to that crime wave was lead, poisoning and poisoning by by other neurotoxic metals, because she would look if you look at the at the lead pollution in the United States, and then you put on an eighteen to twenty year delay because those boys have to go
and a young man in them and the men are the ones who joined the crime. You see that there's this perfectly match curve between legislation, the atmosphere and increasing crime rates, and then, when we took let out a gasoline, when we were kids led, was moving, Iceland and during the Carter administration, led started coming down the atmosphere and easy a twenty year leg. Crime rates come down. Such a crime is also unwed pregnancy. It's also all the juvenile delinquency, its murder, its rape. All of these things track lead, poisoning the atmosphere holy Shit, so the impulsivity, an aggressor, of behaviour, s behaviour and passivity and are not being able to think through what you're doing. These are all things that can happen with lead. Poisoning of the Roman Empire probably fell because a lead pipes, serious stuff because they were using lead pipes,
we're getting let in their water supply, and so they probably started making bad decisions, because a lead poisoning wow now round up and children and the neurotoxic effects of this stuff. Now they use it for corn, what else they spray round I don't know. All the crops they use a forges is the number one her was still still in United States, not in non Europe anymore, but as someone avoided, you have to eat organic food like what is the way to avoid yes, so that's a great question so for passes. I said, or on the surface of the plan, you can wash them right, and so you can, you can clean your food or if it's something it like a banana. The appeal you do that deprives the only problem. There is a lot of pesticides are caught, so called systemic pesticides are actually taken up from the plants routes and the plants circulatory systems delivering Throughout the planned, this was actually a technology that was developed by Gerhard Schroeder during World WAR too. He was a nazi scientist. You
then Sarandon, Tab and in all these Eurovision he also invented systemic pesticides, and so it is a systemic pesticide is incorporated. To the plant. Then the only way to not get it is to wait long enough that it breaks down and so they're supposed to not harvest that crop until the systemic pesticide is broken down, This one the sprayed on the outside of the plant that is surface you can wash it. What I like to do. Is there some good online calculators? You can look at. Most of us can't afford to only buy organic, and that would be the best thing to do, because most people can't afford it to where you can do as you can look at what how much pesticide residues are in different kinds of plants like strawberries have a lot so strong is are good wine if you're going to invest. You know you. If you have limited budget, you wanna get one thing: organic strawberries would be a good one to get organic and then other things wash well before you eat, so strawberries have alot systemic or a lot as they have a lot on the surface, and they have high pesticide residues compared to other crops, says it affected to wash them
yeah I mean you won't get rid of all of it being get rid of most of it by Washington, God, damn it this house's stuff. Still league I mean. Is it just? Is that much of a factory in yield and crop yield? Is that It is a huge factor in crop yield and so you know the pesticide industry would argue, look we're not starving anymore! You go back to before. We have these modern pesticides and there was mass starvation and there was also much more disease. Like you go back into the eighteen hundred as you could spect you're going to lose. If you have ten kids you're, probably gonna lose three or four of them. When there, when their kids to do is to disease, maybe half of them, and now we live in this world word. You know you: can your kids can make it they're, not all going to die from disease they're not going to starve to death. So there's great things that have come from this, but at the same time we are over easy, pesticides and where we're relying too much on them, and then we end up with with these problems agree. There is great things
come out of vaccines and great things that have come out of all these pesticides and herbicides and all that stuff. But knowing that this is doing damage to children today and the fact that this is illegal in Europe now and should have been illegally and if the Obama administration, if not for political influence, I was tolerated. Well, it's it's! It's horrible right that we have corporations have that kind of clear. Why is it that I would do that right, further profit and what? Why is it that a corporation should have more say in a more influence with, petitions than you do or her. I do that a scientist uri or anyone just regular personal story. Why can't everybody has a say and in what goes on in, We have a situation where these corporations have way too much influence way too much power Their money is warping our politics is there a way to grow food for all the people that we need to grow food for without these herbicides? So with integrated pest management, you can grow food for everyone.
On the planet. How much would it cost and that does use some pesticides? It just uses way less them or reason now. So it's integrating the pesticides with biological control with crop rotation. Part of the problem we have as we will. Is monocultures where you have ten thousand acres of the same thing will, of course, when it pests comes in, there is going to take off writers, food everywhere, and so, if you go back to the ink Empire. A single farmer, income farmer, pre contact would have a curfew, few acres of land, their growing potatoes. They would have two hundred varieties of potatoes, Land and then you go to Ireland at the time of the famine. One variety potato in the whole country is ninety five. Ninety six, ninety, ninety five percent: the nutrition of this entire population of eight million people will of course, you're going to have a disaster, and so part of it is. We have to go back to a kind of agriculture, this much more diverse rotating crops, all of these other things, and then we could use.
Chemicals, but use them in a very smart targeted way. It's just so disturbing that that this is used. All over the United States on crops and we no! It's damaging! Does it don't know. There's evidence of this, but does it make sense that if you ate a cow that had been eating grain that had been spray with life, a site that you could potentially develop, issues from eating that meet yeah, and so it has to do with how long is it from when the sprain occurred. Until when the cow eats the plan, show you eat the cow, because you can look at how long that molecule last before breaks down. So this was the big problem with the organic farming compounds, as they would persist for deck, and so that's why you go to a woman in nineteen sixty four and shall have twelve parts per million of DDT nor breast milk. Yet, if cow's milk, if you go to the grocery store and the cow's milk had over four parts per million
Did they couldn't sell it, so the average woman was producing milk for the baby with three. I amount of allowable ddt and food, and that was from eating. From eating, animals have had and eating the crops it had this thing on it, so we have shifted to pesticides the breakdown and environment much faster, which is a good thing because as much less residues in food, but we actually is more pesticides. Now, Sir, when Rachel Carson published her book in eighteen, sixty two that lead to the emergence of environmental movement, it led to the major environmental policies United States, which were passed to nineteen sixty eight nineteen. Seventy six- and you know that's remarkable. We think you think back to Next time you think a Watergate right, but really well, but what was going on? We had the national environmental policy activated. Sixty eight endangered species act, cleaner act, Clean water act, safe drinking water act. All of this all them
your environment legislation that they are all passed by democratically controlled Congress and they were signed by republican president. So the environment was politicized after that. Why don't we still live in a world where everybody cares about the environment and children's health? Why should this be a partisan issue? I just find that ridiculous right. We should all care about this and we should all be working together to try to solve the now. It's like everything else has become partisan and it is written. Everything is Parson ridiculous were in such a strange position now in this country and everything's, all these conversations or toxic and there's no middle ground is no room for new wants. But the idea that we're doing this with our food supply is very disturbing is but is there other than these bring in bugs? And how would you That was a model crop. If you're dealing like we have thousands of acres of corn say, how would you deal with the issue of plants.
You dont want their weeds or whatever there trying to kill yes it s. Part of problem is growing monoculture. You have to shift to the more diverse agriculture so badly, They need damage corn Roque, as a lot of it is for agriculture. A lot of that, the reason why the growing is for feed right for animals. Yet, yes, oh are you there's plenty of other crops and we need to so instead of having ten thousand acres of corn here and then ten thousand acres of soya beans here and then ten thousand acres of wheat over here you make this a more diverse chest like board of crops, so you're, not creating a situation where the passengers explode in their population, relative, a farmer in. Do you his company or his family business has been growing corn, growing corn for animal feed or force now come worn Sirop or whatever their use it for. If that's your family business, now you have to diversify your family. Businesses start
grow and saw in our files all these different things, just because of this round up issue. Well, but you go back to that farmers grandfather and he was growing a diverse set of crime right, but a means of youth, but you know as well as I do that most farmers are like on the verge of bankruptcy already that it's a really tough business you work really hard, you barely make any money, and in our get subsidized by the government if you grow certain crops like corn, but if there already in a tough spot and then they have distributors that, as except a certain amount, a corn every year, and this is what valuable to them. How do you get that guy I mean how do you say: hey Buddy, you know you stop using round up and instead you gonna grow. We and you're gonna grow asparagus or whatever it seems like it's a tough cell, is it a cell, but every time that there is a challenge like this is also creates opportunities for how do you improve your market reaction,
the farm, and I was a kid we had. I eighty eight farm in Alaska and we lost my on it every year. It's a very tough thing. Did you, especially in a place like that, where there's a three month growing season, We were the only jewish pig farmers in Alaska and we had we had hay and we had potatoes and chickens and keys and docks and pigs, and he knows it was great. But I understand this is a tough life and it's a tough way to make a living and- and we need to have policies, help people that help people to do their farming without polluting the food supply without polluting the world and in the process make a more productive, diverse economy. For then, what There are suggestion when they were talking about possibly outlying glide for say is there a suggestion for other ways to go about removing weeds and unwanted plants? And that may be this there
work around or was it just a political decision to shut it down yesterday, so the decision to to ban it was based on the toxicity and the effects on children, but you're, also bringing up another really important issue, which is this concept of regrettable replacements. So, for example, we are talking about DDT when DDT was phased out because it was showing up in food supply and and women having breast milk with unacceptable levels of DDT in it, then that was replaced by they're gonna phosphate chemicals, but then we talked about how they are toxic. That letter, poison in a farm workers transferring the rest of farm workers, those it mostly been replaced by the new nicotine noises. Artificial versions of nicotine, so we also history in our human history of the of replacing something with something else without thinking, through the consequences and in the process it it? That's what we call it: a regrettable replacement, Ricky subsequent one thing? We don't know what it does for something else. We don't know what it does.
So, I don't know the answer, really your question, but I think that we need to be supporting our agricultural industry to first, fine it using integrated pest management minimizing the use of these pesticides and is not just for our own health is also for the health of the environment. Like you liked to hunt right, you got it Have you been a cardiac island in Alaska now? So, if you go to court Ireland, if you go to the southern Tipp of the island- is all these dear, where their antlers are completely messed up and the males have crypt Orkut is, and this is where the testes have not descended so there yet in some kind of a contaminated makes, their development messed up and I'll fix you want to eat. Those probably like you see this dear, doesn't have testicles hanging down at its antlers. Are all deformed You might think. That's not the animal that I want to hunt I want. I want to clean animals the same thing that you got a car for your your dinner. You want me to be clean. You don't want it to be full of chemical So I do we see if there is any known
Action between glide forsake and animal protein like see, if it's how you go this is there can it. I tried so yeah, it's found in a lot of stuff, so. We'll have tested things so they tested out. Most of it would be yeah, but that they must have. Their testing is a great grains and things that are growing like that. So, if you buy grains, you are ingesting some life. Is it me? When did he came out? We we started using it on dairy cattle and ME cattle and the idea was to kill the flies harassing the cows. All the time and DDT actually greatly increase the yield me in cows, but then it was discovered, is getting into the milk and then kisser drinking it and Oliver the glove say things very disturbing. Is we're not talking about the nineteen certainties we're talking about twenty twenty fourteen twenty?
sixteen right, that's why you're saying it did you should have been eliminated at. Is there any discussion right now to have it removed? I know: there's there's on Brazil, farmers in Brazil that are suing the company that makes it yes, our different countries, different regulations. I go to some countries where their stories and DDT so just because this band here doesn't mean it it's. Everywhere to fasten, is banned other places, but not bound America's a disgrace. Yeah yeah and so part of it has to do obviously the politicized, vision of our regulatory process has a huge part of it, because that shouldn't be political either right. If something is not safe, it should be broken. Made it, and- and so I think I think the drivers
Thus, we need to get out of this thing were where the politics, or are driving decisions that are public health decisions or environmental decisions. The thing on finding which is repeated, but it might be because of there's been a multiple lawsuits about this, which causes lots of websites to pop up. But it saying it's found in up to ninety percent of all food. We eat, including vegetables and flush of meat. I don't know Jesus Christ what it is, but without was the argument for that I was. I was ready in an argument for grass FED cattle that you you're much better off eating animals that are too seeding natural grasses, because the there's been no pesticides and they're just basically free ranging The way some of the animals you hunt radios are much healthier because her heating, without these coming yeah. Well, there's an issue now with dear that's a pretty big.
What kind of spooky right now it's contained only dear and see w, do you wear that chronic wasting These are living brain yeah, very similar to mad cow disease has what is that a yucca creutzfeldt? Yes, this is their getting it from from wild if it is in some of the coming from our westerns. Aids and then it's moving into the dear population that are moving around in an hunters can get brain poisoning from that right. Well, they haven't now right now: it's not it doesnt jump species that right now it's it's is isolated and servants, so cattle might be. Get it, but dear get it they ve found instant says of Mule dear that get it Elk get it. It did for an animal's get it, but it hasn't job to humans, but it has jump species to mice and so are there really just? Did it's over disturbing idea that you can eat something today with you here. You go hunting in the woods in you.
Dear issued that, dear anything, I this clean org meat, but some day, whether its next week, or twenty years from now it might be that you could get a brain disease this same disease. Cannibals get. You know this neurological disease. It's coming from this that the pre once that, are there in this this. This Easy by the way they they ve done these sterilization process. As on the tools that they used to determine whether or not they have the disease. You get these fuckers. You could take these medical instruments in on our dear that has the sea dvd with his pre ins and they can be exposed thousand degrees, thousands of degrees, and Brian stay alive. If we're like ours, thousands of degrees for hours any, pray. Angelic, virtually immortal said it. This is just like where we're going through now with covered, because that began from people eating bats and Bush actually not there's more
or evidence that comes out of a lab and will harm that somehow or another when they were doing these videos left. Four lab in will haunt Breton and sometimes also biologists, was on my part ass. It was explaining and I'm not, I would butchered if I've wanted to detail. Not a buzz explaining all the indicators that point to the fact that this was a virus that used for research and that using it too. You know to learn more about or come up with strategies to defeat corona viruses and that the same lab, that's in war on in ninety. Ninety eight or not. This me, two thousand a just two years ago was: cited for safety violations, and then there have cases in the past, even with robotic plague where research labs actually inadvertently release the the plague into the local population. I guess is, though, when this is all said and done is going to be for meeting bushmeat in China that the people will have eaten Baskerville Eden. Pangloss got infected by bad
but each ideas, visa same kind of thing right, people eating chimpanzees are getting there getting this infection and then it as a pandemic around the world, so We are seeing more and more of these diseases because, where punching entered this habitat, we ve never been in before people are eating the animals and getting and getting sick fra Bob I dont know whether on a team from a lab or whether it came from people eating bats and think, ultimately, is really the big concerned. The big concerns dealing with the virus itself but Brett seem to be fairly convinced without any could say without any uncertainty, but he he's fairly convinced it. It came from a lad style. Just as you are sameness, I stumbled across us online. It seems to be relayed, but silent,
But this esteemed Balin Steve Ban and lay groups push study claiming China manufacture, covert. You haven't you see. The thing is even if China did and this guy pushed it, you would be suspicious you'd, be like a great now. It's politicized again, they politicized a fuckin pandemic. Disease yeah now becomes is thing about the trade war with China. Do you know, or or coming up with reason is why people should be suspicious of China is very unfortunate. Yeah. No, it's really sad in its stymies progress in so many France when, when things get polarize like air is terrible- and I think it's in in our lifetime, I think, is the worst now that it's been Maybe if you went back to Vietnam WAR Era, there was similar levels. Budgets, you know I don't know I wasn't. I mean I was alive them, but I wasn't penitentiary those little tail. We were both
kids by, but I think, that's probably the last time that this country has faced this kind of thing. The crazy thing is, if you went back before, Tromp was as you have acted like the last two years of the Obama administration, when the economy had done the turn around. Two thousand eight things: you're pretty good. Everything was nice and even during the beginning, the tribe administration, even though people like him, the economy take a nap and then out there, but there was at the beginning of the polarization cuz there's so many people didn't like him and the people that did like him. Fuck, you, like you, know they had like some. They they had someone on their side. Now that we could take a thumb, their finger up at the liberals and then it just go worse and worse and worse and then covert through gasoline on the fire and now now have it trees on fire me it just what we say you couldn't get you worse. You have record wildfires. We have the worst air quality on earth in Portland, Oregon. Although being said, though, when this started and we first started getting case of the United States,
really concerned, the society would fall apart and I was partially I think I was concerned about that because I too spent eight or nine reading this historical accounts of society falling apart during the boom, plague during yellow fever and so on, where literally that the society fell apart and that hasn't happened not totally its Emmy compared to past pandemics. Things are pretty good and I have two months till the election right gummy, my were that's. I'm word about that too. I am very worried about the post election world could get fuckin while it could get right, Billy legitimately concerned about that, I am concerned about two things I am concerned about the euro. And of democracy in this country, and I am concerned about a violent backlash, and so it is for some time, and I am also concerned about a new disease when you, when you see what happened with this panda
making you realize this is a fairly mild disease in terms of like historic context, would have something horrific like this ban flew or something along those lines that we don't predict coming This is why we need a very vibrant federal agency that deals with this. That prepares for here. That's what really pissed. Everybody often found out that the pandemic response team had been for the ridiculous beyond it, asked banded what else concerns you is there? Anything else would that should free people to fuck as we kind of coverage governed raw from toxin, disease to yeah. Well, you know, I think, We all want a brighter future for ourselves for this planet, for wildlife, for nature and
its useful to learn about the history, because you can see these mistakes, you and I ve been talking about mistakes. The same mistake made over and over again right of. Less throw this thing out. We don't know what it does and see what happens and and An example of this is my family. Has a log cabin in New Hampshire that my grandfather, my father, is brother, built back in the 1940s yeah. It's really cool it's on thirty acres and it's it now in in holding because after they after my grandfather, bought the land and built the cabin it became national for so it is really beautiful spa. And in the nineteen, fifty four service decided to do an experiment, so they came in and they dumped massive amounts of DDT and this river to see what would happen and it so coarse, killed off an then everything came back to see what happened so too. It s kind of a metaphor for just stupidity. I just wanted to see this The students and grammar with the strong poison
then he goes down unless make us you can ever Fisher again and suck. So you know I would like to see us being careful and thoughtful and you were talking about genetically engineered mosquitos and whether that's a good thing or bad thing. Maybe it's a great thing maybe, if we genetically engineer and off ways, we can get rid of malaria and not harm mosquito populations and not harm nature, but we better figure it out before we release these things before retry. The unintended consequences are what really concerns exactly and and they and all the time which seems like we have an amazing amount of knowledge comparatively to people that live thousands of years ago, but when you think about how little we know about just about ants, communicating or various beat bugs and and how they operate. We in debt we're gonna fuck with mosquitos, and we don't we, we really dont, know what Don no. What happens you take that peace out like let's take that peace and throw
over there? What happens? What would this void. Thou. Then what feels that vote? and what would have the? What are the domino pieces they fall into place between no, I don't I can't imagine if we don't know how answer so smart, that we really know what the fuck out of a kilo mosquitoes sure you're saying we know all this. We have this incredible knowledge. We have so much knowledge that we're just six months into this. Endemic and there's already eight or nine vaccines close to develop by right? That's incredible much faster than ever before, but are we any wiser than people were thousands years ago? There's no evidence of any wiser. We know a lot more, but has are a red equipped to deal with these things and we we we made nuclear weapons and during World war to my great grandfather, was actually in charge. Chemistry division of the Manhattan project, so he held out. He helped to make the fact in history bath, and so you know we make this thing and right away. We use it the eye we drop in on Japan and and
We live in this world when we were kids, I don't have your school had a school would have drills. We had a major air force base in Anchorage and army base, And we would have these air raid drills once a week and and we had bomb shelters and all that and that's a pretty scary thing to grow up with and what why do we have this? Why are we just because we have something we have to use? It is the same with chemical weapons. So another good thing as we have the the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty and we have a chemical weapons, bandwidth biologic, weapons ban. We have the herbicide ban, those last three, those all happened in the nineties seventies and they haven't Nixon and Ford, and so, if, if that could be accomplished in a bipartisan way, why week? Why can we deal with these problems? but now in a bipartisan wait. I dont know for wiser. I suspect we are, but I suspect that the progress is incremental and the progress in. I believe I say without a shadow of a doubt. We are wiser than homeless.
Sapiens that lived Half a million years ago I think we are brains, a lot bigger. We are wiser, so I would soon. I think we're probably wiser than people that live nineteen twice, I think we are think just based on. I know we have more information, but I think we ve weave absorbed a lot of it more so than we probably understand, and that, if you look at the violence statistics, rape, statistics, Racism started all the different statistic. Different statistics, like would have work. It shows a thing: are getting better, even though they still suck in a lotta cases. And then I just tanks were a big ass battleship and every turn takes a long time? I think we're iser, but I think it's a law, process to educate is dumb monkey poor, dumb While we are smart and dumb at the same time, I would say: maybe if you go back hundred fifty years, they were one
Then we are now because he lived in a much less polluting world and then we less wise now we're getting wiser again. He look at air pollution and United States and amount of lead in the air. Chester now is less than one percent of what it was when miracle, so the air, so much cleaner you go back to when we were kids, two thirds of the of the waterways, the United States or unsafe for swimming or fishing. Now it's about a less than a third, so the waters. Way cleaner and I'm. So we ve cleaned up our act in this country. The pollution getting much less and we ve been talking about some of the darker side right of these chemicals getting in our food, but the bigger picture is actually pretty bright in this country. Pollution levels have been going down, there's more forest now in this country than there was when we were younger either through the heirs, cleaner, the waters cleaner and that's because we have this important environmental legislation like cleaner act in the clean water act. And that goes back to this political point, because that was done in a bipartisan way, and I think we have to get back to that to solve
The problems were dealing with now. Listen. Your book is fantastic. This conversation was amazing, a really appreciate your time coming here and I really enjoyed very much. I really does have me, it's awesome, my pleasure and people. Is there an audio bugger this? I hope there we'll be not our yet not yet please tell me, you read it: will you read it? Will I read the book Yet audio, but I don't know, I don't have a good voice. You know what I thought. Your worry, I know I want a british man was like an infomercial lackeys: everybody listen audio books. Yes, I love audio lies at my favorite. Narrators are all men from the United Kingdom, so I'll get someone like there's this guy John. These amazing, I would love to have him read my book. Well put it out there- and he heard me John LEO here this, but it's available right now, if you're a reader, the chemical age, there go pick it up. Thank you frank. Military shanks driver to go by everybody. Thank you, friend returning to the show and thank you to the motherfucker
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and were also brought to you by C b d empty and their powerful and period C B, the oil products to make it easier for you to try seabed p m or any of c B. The M these amazing see beating oil products. They're gonna offer listeners of this podcast twenty five. And often next order when you use the promo code Rogan at check out so once again that c b the empty dotcom, use the promo code, Rogan for twenty five percent of your purchase of high quality C b. The oil products from seed indeed empty my friend we did it again thanks. So much much loves you all. Bye, bye and.
Transcript generated on 2020-09-24.