« The Joe Rogan Experience

#1543 - Brian Muraresku & Graham Hancock

2020-09-30 | 🔗
Attorney and scholar Brian C. Muraresku is the author of The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name. Featuring an introduction by Graham Hancock, The Immortality Key is a look into the psychedelic origins of the world's great spiritual practices and what those might mean for how we view ourselves and the world around us. Hancock's most recent book is America Before: The Key to Earth's Lost Civilization, now available in Paperback.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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joining us. Well, one person in person in one via Skype, first time ever my great friend the power Graham Hancock is joining us via Skype from England, and he wrote the forward for this man Brian, more rescues book, which is absolutely fantastic- It was an amazing conversation. The book is called the immortality key. The secret history of the religion with no name, and it is all about the use of psychedelic in ancient civilizations and with New formation that Brian has been working on for over the past twelve years to create this book and he's alive It scholar I mean this- is it in fact he has never even had personal psychedelic experiences. This is all just based on on history and on research, and it was just an absolutely amazing conversation that I enjoyed. Every second of
So please welcome Graham Hancock and Brian Mara Rescue on on second, the Joe Rogan experience join my day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day, joining us by Skype is the great and powerful, Graham Hancock, my friend. How are you, Sir Hi Jeff Oh it's really good to be back with you. I wish I could be there in person. Filter strange to be on this technology, but these the times we live in yet well, I'm just happy, we could talk at all in this day and age is it's the little things like little victories and Brian Gonna, try it I'm gonna, try more rescue you, it bro, thank you and but this is the first time we've ever done. One of these as well in the studio where one, maybe ever, visual we've never done. what we did, one with you guys were member, did Randal Karlsson Mud bogged down,
came in by telephone. I ass would just very strange sound coming from nowhere, we see you but we'd never die one of these like this? But this book tell me this is the immortality key, the secretive the secret history of religion, of the religion, with no name offsetting at this good history of the religion with no name now. This is Obviously, when I found the subject matter grams is right up your alley and it made total complete sense why you and Brian worked together on this so who wants to start and explain, on. We have you, since you're you're over there in the UK, absolutely well, I mean for me, in fact, Joe. I think you and I originally got in touch because of my interest in psychedelic sin, human culture and a book that I published in two thousand and six called supernatural, yes, which which looks at the huge role that cycle
Alex have played and cultures and religions all around the world I touched in that book on the role of psychedelic, seeing the origins of Stay amity, of course, is a dynamic subject And what Brian has done in the immortality key aspects, to present, hard and fast evidence that the first Christians were using psychedelic under their religious experiences were mediated by psychedelic experiences and brine. How did you get involved in this too? A long story, Look like a stoner. By the way. I tell you right now. You guys done a few mushrooms in his day. Oddly enough, I don't do drugs and I've I've never done psychedelics wow yeah, that's crazy! Yeah! We want to start today! Well, I wish we were in LA. I could hook you up in Texas the laws
sketch or here what what led you to this, then I was fascinated by grams work, which I only came across about, twelve years ago, I was a latin Greek and sanskrit undergrad major, and instead getting the phd or becoming a priest which might the two options. When you study latin and Greek, I went to school instead for no reason whatsoever, And then wound up at a law firm and couple years into it, started reading about these suicide and studies coming out of Hopkins are you and that amazing statistic that two thirds of the participants were describing it as one of the most amazing experiences of their lives, and it hit me that there was something there, because the testimony coming out of Hopkins and and why in a very clinical setting immediately reminded me of what I heard about a loses and for those who don't know what elusive is its essentially that the spiritual capital of the ancient world it was where the best and brightest of Athens and Rome
went to essentially meet a goddess in the flesh and have this mine blowing visionary experience. So before Jerusalem before Rome before me, there, was a lucid and, for some reason, we're not taught about this and our high school mythology or or western Sid classes, but it was there that Plato, Cicero, Marcus Aurelius all went to drink a magical potion and, in their words, have this vision? What Plato cause a blessing site and vision? The holiest of mysteries in which they claim to have a direct encounter with the goddess and completely eradicate their fear of death, was very similar to the volunteers, are saying, with their single experience of suicide and now with the losers, how much history do we have? What how much recorded history that dog demands these rituals and is there any did describes actual contents of this mixture non. There isn't much. I mean a loose I'd. I say elusive, like the fight club of the ancient world, the first rule about elusive. Is you don't talk about elusive always
is- is fragmentary, testimony again from from Plato, Pindar, Sophocles and others. They do talk about a vision. That's almost universe oh, and they almost universally talk about this once in a lifetime transformative events where they become initiates and only they properly have life after death, because at the time the Greeks didn't really look forward to the afterlife. In fact, there was no. After, like you just disappear into Haiti's to do. God knows what but people walk away from elusive.
Saying that they found salvation- and we don't know why or how we know this potion is involved. We know they make this pilgrimage thirteen miles from Athens to elusive to drink this potion. We know they they prepare for months, if not years before it and there for ever change afterwards, but we have very little hard data to actually look into it and so in nineteen. Seventy eight this this trio Renegades Gordon Watson, Albert Hoffman, who discovered, LSD and call rock who was then the chair of the classics Department at Boston University. They put out this book the road to a loses, claiming they found the secret after two thousand years of what they claim to set. This potion was actually spiked with ergot, which is that naturally occurring fungus from which you can synthesize LSD and, in fact it's we're Albert. That's how he synthesize LSD by accident in nineteen thirty, eight with cultures of
We've talked about Ergo before in this podcast, connecting it to the Salem Witch trials, which is a very speculative, but they think there's real evidence that shows that there was a late frost during the time of the Salem Witch trials that probably led to mold growth on their wheat, which probably led to earth. Infestation of their food, and so these poor people, where you now unintentionally eating acid intended it happened a lot there. There were ergot outbreaks of across time, especially in the middle ages, they would called Saint Anthony Fire the igneous socket because it so so common. In fact, if you
to any brewer today, at least that the birth- and I was talking to, I went to see this beer scientist in Munich, Germany, Martin Sancho, and he says you can't avoided nights, bits more common on things like rye, but it also pops up on barley and wheat to and again it's unavoidable and its highly highly toxic. The question is: does it really produced the kind of vision, the visionary experiences that people have on Soulis Ivan LSD, mescaline and others according to Albert Hoffman, absolutely so as a matter of fact, I went into the Harvard archives. Watson's papers are kept to this day in the the Boney, and I found a letter that Albert wrote, Gordon Gordon CO, author in nineteen, seventy six, six saying that Albert had self experimented with with arganaine, which is one of these alkaloids in argot, and he claimed in nineteen seventy six. It was five to ten times more potent than silicide.
It's fascinating to me that these cultures seem to have hid some of these rituals, and this goes back to really it as far back as we have recorded Psychedelic use like Sohmer, we still to this day day know what that is and is described in these incredible ways. In Ancient Hindu texts- but we don't what it is We have an idea. I actually brought some some sanskrit to show you. Do you want to see some sand for yeah? Can you put it up on the screen it's under their the summer time. Look at how beautiful that is there. It is their language writing. It Sanskrit got it so pretty doing at a rate of four you please, you can read that yeah. So this is my major in college, so at in the very middle there you can see a mom in Gaza, Sheeta yoga shit, I shall not be shut up, got, give out a shabby. He sought them and but what he saying there is this is from the rig veda right and in its the oldest lit
in western civilization. We think it it's among the. European languages, if the oldest recorded literature that we have it could be one thousand five hundred BC. One thousand seven hundred, perhaps much earlier, like the Iliad and the odyssey and Greek. This is the mother tongue. Of all the Indo European languages and what they read A lot is Soma, which is both a god and the juice that is pressed from this God, and what they're talking about there is is making this ritual potion very much like the cookie on that we find among the ancient Greeks, and here so is, described as a mixed potion. Yoshida means mixed with barley, Galva Sheeta from Sanskrit GO governs milk mixed with milk, and so I've read all the time is that you have about what some a wise, whether it was the dominating was scary, a mushroom or some Scylla, sobbing containing species or ordained tee, the way they that they describes
My here is always a mixed potion, which so, in this case, mix with barley and milk, so that would be an urgent some sort of Already there mention Emily and so that that's that's what Rock Hoffman and and Watson we're saying in nineteen. Seventy eight. We have. We have literature from the seventh century BC called to him to damage or where they record these ingredients of what the cookie on was the? U S like what? What, where is he what evidence so in the seventies wouldn't have much. It starts with the literature which is what class is too and so that there's this hymn to Demeter. That was discovered in one thousand seven hundred and seventy seven a year after we declare our independence from Graham's people, and what they what they found in there and enlightened circular, we're in Texas man absolutely well done, I'm all for all for independence
I'd like to be independent of my own country, if possible, as well. Well, Texas has taken refugees at the moment. Is it not? Well that's what's happening here, that's why we're here were refugees from the country of California, exactly the nation state of California, so What why do we know why they combined with milk, and it was just so that it was easier to consume that that's what we don't know. We don't know why the coop on was it. Was this mixed thing either, but so in him to Demeter the record, these ingredients, its Alfie, which is barley, who daughter, which is water and a black on which means Mint, and that's all we had so there doesn't and milk you didn't say milk that was in Soma Soma, yeah, oh, which they mix with all kinds of things and not and and not just and milk, but also honey. As a matter of fact, Soma is often identified with made, which is honey in Sanskrit
and speculated that there was a transfer in culture of psychedelic base culture to an alcohol based culture. based on climate change and also based on preserving things in honey, and that honey would create Meade and Meade. It would show if people don't know is an alcohol beverage. That's actually made with honey is: do you think that this was the case with the use of honey as well? That is used as a preservative, or was it to make it taste better, more palatable. We don't know we don't know that that's the problem, we're we're about ancient ancient and fungi fungi, especially we don't know what plans are talking about. So the ancient literature records all kinds of plants across by if I could, if I could jumpin Joe you're you're absolutely right. There was sir secrecy
that surrounded the use of these potions in the ancient world. There's a case from from Athens, the the potion from being being used for recreational purposes, and this is roundly condemned by concern that it should only be used for the for the sacred and spiritual purposes of which it was intended. So there was a great deal of secrecy that surrounded the use of these potions and the potions, a doorway or a gateway into another level of reality and what fascinating from abuses and many other ancient accounts is the way that people come back, having lost their fear of death that they don't death is the end anymore. It's just another stage on the journey. Just the beginning of the next great adventure and it's Brian is its brightness the right to draw attention to the to the modern work with Psilocybin and again we find people who are terms. Cases who are eminently facing death losing
a fear of death as a result of using silo cyber. So we can begin to see connections between what we stand about these extraordinary substances in the modern world and how the ancient world use them. That does seemed to be a universal theme. The service theme of alleviating the fear of death, and this this. This comes up constantly with people that I know personally that have had it had these psychedelic experiences state. They say why I feel, like I went to Heaven I feel like now. I understand why people believe there's this perfect life that I see a lot of a lot of the critics will say that it's some kind of natural, human tendency that we don't want to die and that, where afraid of death and that and that Sir religions provide us with some sort of solace, some some sort of feeling of security, but I dont think that washes at all. I think it's, I think,
What's striking about the psychedelic says it's a direct experience that the person has they have. An experience is not a teaching. It's not something that they're told about is not a scripture that they read it's an experience that they have and that sperience eliminate see the fear of death, I think, Brian, by the way, having written the immortality cave, which I've only provided the forward Brian is absolutely right to be a psychedelic virgin. In my case, because I have used psychedelic than many other substances, a lot of my credit, just try to write off all my work, whether its on lost civilizations or on psychedelics. They tried to write. It all offers the the of of a sort of drug maniac, maniac and, I think, very, very smart, Brian Very Brian, not to put himself in that situation. I hope he will work. With psychedelics in the future, but I think he was right not to work with psychedelics before writing this book and to concentrate on the evidence. Well, Michael Pollan, who,
later in life, experienced psychedelic and wrote pretty brilliantly about them. For me not its he's one of the more interesting people to discuss it because Michael's it in the gate of journalist he did he die, takes deep dives into these subjects and his deep I've into psychedelic was incredibly illuminating and suddenly him am I really enjoyed talk to him about in a really enjoy. This book is well his his perceptions of it. We're really unique because you're talking about a guy who lived his whole life without them, And then really dulled head first for his book and then kind of what happened to me when I, when I wrote supernatural, I had I a from one experience with LSD in and nineteen seventy four I haven't used any psychedelics until I began to research supernatural back in the early two thousands
because I'm kind of boots on the ground researcher, I felt it was essential that I have these experiences. What I couldn't guess was the way that the experiences would utterly change and for my life and I I can stem from a level of personal experience. Why psychedelic do lie at the root, I think of all the world's religions and those religions are now busily trying to deny that connection. Well, they're, not just trying to do it. There's there's many people in science that are trying to deny these connections to it's. It's it's so, fortunate that the people that are trying to deny these connections or the significance of these experiences haven't had them I don't think anybody who has a dinosaur trip to mean experience can just dismiss it as being no big deal. It's it's too crazy. The fur and you need to do it, sir, this guy just the fact that
it's it's one of those things where everyone who does it comes out of it saying I can't believe, that's real yeah! I can't I can't believe you can just get there that quickly that three people and all the sudden urine you're in Narnia. I get not way more intense than one and you're in a place where entities are actually communicating with you and to you and teaching to you. I mean this is another aspect, of psychedelic is the moral aspect of psychedelic and enemies of psychedelics want to associate them with some kind of immorality, but actually anybody who's worked extensively with psychedelics will know that they contain moral teachings, whether it's the mushrooms or whether it's lsd, they cause us to examine our own behavior, our own impact upon others to question unkindness to others and to give us at least the push to
begin to be better people and more nurturing and more caring people for others. So this strong moral element in psychedelics again is totally ignored by the critics who just want to demonize these substances for four reasons that I think are rather sinister. Actually, my, I think our current culture lapse and that lacks a map of the territory and if we had like some sort of legitimate psychedelic counselling- We could go somewhere and experts, both in former com, Oh gee and in medical science can talk people through these experiences and help them achieve them and get me but the realise that you know much like the ancients, these experts answers are not that's not wise to use them. Recreational me, you know you can. If you want to mean that you will Benny Many people have and then inadvertently benefited from them greatly, but I fear there there very profound- and I think they should be true
heeded, like almost like you, ve gotta Willie, walk of golden ticket to go meet. God does that It seems like it seems like it's happened. It should be we did with respect, should be treated with respect and with and with reverence, because because of this sense that we are passing through a doorway into seamlessly convincing parallel reality and the possibility that that isn't just a concoction of our brains, the brains are simply acting as a as an interface or a transceiver between us and that other level of reality and again you can see the connection with psychedelic send and religion. Here. My view is- and I said this before on your show, Joe if I were running the world, anybody who wanted to be a precedent. Prime Minister, a head of state of any kind? I think it should. Obligatory
They have at least a dozen sessions with a powerful psychedelic. It can be DMT it at be eye, it can be LSD, but I got to go through those doesn't sessions. They should be guided by experience, practitioners and at the end of those doesn't sessions. I very much doubt of those individuals would be the same. Individuals who went into the application for the job in the first place. No, I don't think you could be the same. When You write about all this. How curious are you personally of the experience and Do you plan on having I do under the conditions that are that you said I mean I think that we're. Period. Now, where everything is about to change, the clinical research is advancing rigged. Alban moving to phase three. You have research that Hopkins and why you? now, UCLA looking at Psilocybin for a host of different conditions, depression, anxiety and of life, distress which has really fascinating, and I think that some I'm over the next five years. The FDA is gonna get involved, and these will become available, at least for specified conditions, and what I look for
two is maybe in ten years time or less. These retreat centres, which are licence unregulated with professional staff, medical supervised staff who essentially guide people through what would be a novel initiation experience not not. Unlike what may have happened twenty seven hundred years ago, I'm hoping they're gonna be back door in as therapy for people with pre existing conditions that we have right now, like Opium, Lloyd Addiction, a bogus like I've again being introduced an empty a may for people with post tracks. As disorder for soldiers Khazars spend so much real, solid evidence that its incredibly beneficial to these people, particularly the opium crisis we have a real problem in this country, with people being addicted to these pills,
and wind up dying from them that can be nipped in the bud like really effectively with I've again and the fact that you have to leave the country to have these I began experiences is really it's. It's a terrible statement on the the rational thinking of our culture today, because it's not like these are unknown things we're talking about it right now, a podcast millions people are listening to and we ve talked about it dozens of times in the past, and it's something that scientists are aware of researchers, aware of and particularly people who have come back from there and have had these experiences and have been curative there. There addictions there, they literally requires the way, the brain interfaces with these goods and the fact that its not available to people and they have to go through traditional counselling, unjust and and benefit from their willpower and somehow another try not to do to relapse. It's it's it's too,
we're leaving just mitigating some of them, even cannabis, for example, which which can be which can which can mitigate some of those addictive potentials. I worked. I worked with athletes, for example, which which might enter You are so I represented the guinea. Might James was an NFL player who we believe as the first professional athlete in the? U S, to seek a therapeutic use exemption from the NFL to get off his open. And use cannabis cannabis instead and we were there at one ST and Park Avenue at NFL headquarters. Arbitrating with the NFL to try and get him a cannabis supply, and then he lost, and he was fine six figures in the process and you and he left because of it, he's not the first one right wasn't there was a the other Jamie year. Football fan who's, the other famous football player. Couldn't take the weed, Ricky Williams, stats right, Ricky Williams, never sought to you either was. It was unthinkable to get a tv at a time, but but it's amazing that the NFL would have a problem marijuana when my eyes- are on pills- I mean
Those guys are so severely injured. I mean it is one of the most brutal, if not the most brutal sport. In the world, and the fact that these guys can seek marijuana for relief when they allow them to take opiates. It's just bananas doesn't make any sense. Because we live in an insane society. Which is got all its priorities upside down and is come fleetly screwing up this beautiful world that human beings have been gifted by the by by the universe, and I think it boils down to a relatively few. Relatively few p we just have incredibly bad governments, lousy leaders, totally irresponsible any initiative or imagination in it time, for themselves. It's a it's a messed up world and it's a kind of litmus test for how messed up that world is that sovereign adults cannot take the risk. Possible decision to use psychedelic without risking jail, that's it
it's a simple, it's very, very insane that that should be the case, and yet alcohol is glorified in our society. As you say, the opioids are prescribed hand over fist, bye, bye, farmer? We have very mixed. And I have a feeling that the sooner we get our politicians on to major psychedelics, the better things are going to be. Let's see we got to get the whole world involved as well We don't want to be the only ones that are Tribune probably the Chinese, the Russians are not to happen and we are really giving a fine man and an and also the other, the other point TIM Tim to make a gain. The critics tried to trick tried to trivialize this, but actually working with psychedelics it can. It can be really hard work, be really grueling. It can be really demanding. It can put you through the psychological ringer, as you confront your own dark side and learn how to deal with it. Yes, there
is that there is a recreational role for these substances, and I honour the right of sovereign adults to use them for recreational purposes if they wish To do so. But it's the deep work that psychedelic require us to do, which is which is really fascinating and which is not easy, is very, very, very difficult. I personally find it difficult. I don't rush to my neck psychedelic adventure. I prepare myself very very carefully and with some trip them experience, Those banks is what real or not periods, as I do. Arians does yeah you're breaking up but but yeah. I completely agree with you about that. I mean I I I get terrified me. I take an animal marijuana edibles did the introspective nature of those things in the way breaks down your thoughts in your behavior and funds, skeletons in your closet, but I'd area. Never six hours
around with a flashlight. I tell people though, but that's one of the things that I like about it. I learn things. I know it's scary. I know I feel terrifying while it's happening, but when I come out out of it on the other end, I genuinely feel like I'm a better person like I've gone of its at that more I will I will be nicer to you. I am better, I'm better, a being me, you know it's it's very effective. It really works, there's something to it and it's it's. It's available It's not something that you have to you, no good counselling, for years and years- and in its note right there, you get it real, quick. This is the whole point of the mystery is by now. The ancient world, I mean so that there was a whole apparatus dedicated to cure rating. These experiences for people and sometimes it was once in a lifetime like a loses at some later point. Your life
You have the dionysian mysteries, which are a bit weirder and a bit crazier, but they were also curated by professionals by technicians, women in this case, who were thought to be spiking wine with all kinds of magical plants, herbs and fungi, but the mysteries existed to create this experience of death and rebirth and they're supposed to be terrifying. You were supposed to enter the underworld
to meet the goddess. It doesn't happen in the daylight and doesn't happen prancing around and the Greeks are known for lots of great things that even Herod it like democracy and the arts and sciences and what we're doing right now. This this three logos through these micro finance. These are all greek things in greek technology that we accept it as part and parcel of western civilization. But there was another part to them and its apart again, that is not taught in high school mythology or western, save and there's this deeply mystical aspect in the mysteries, for example, which which the Greeks really look too as something that wasn't just like a special part of civilization. But the central part of it, so there is this I'll, tell you, sorry about this. This fourth century historians Zosimus. He records the testimony of a roman guy named pride text out to us who was initiated at elusive because a member it wasn't just people from Greece. It was around the Greek empire, including at that time were people had been influenced by the Greeks,
an elusive has survived up until the fourth century, a d at which point it is its destroyed its eliminated by the Christian. By Christians by the Christian is Roman Empire in the late fourth century, and so there were, there were different attempts to wipe it off the map and in three sixty four, the emperor Valentinian. He essentially outlaws all nocturnal celebrations, because these things are always at night. The was at night, which speaks to part of the experience and this guy protect project. This is recorded as saying Valentinian. Please don't shut this.
I'm an initiate. I've been to a loses. I've I've drunk the potion. I've seen the goddess. Please do not eliminate this elusive is the one thing that holds the entire human race together. He said he said: if you get rid of elusiveness life for us will become be helped us which in Greek means unlivable. It wasn't just about greek existence. It was about human existence. There was something happening at elusive with that potion with this big artistic vision that literally held civilization together like glue for the ancient Greeks and democracy, the arts and sciences. Everything else was an offshoot of that experience. Elusive was the foundation. What one of the things you talked about was there was this transference like the eucharist, eventually became a placebo? Do you do you think that that what do you think it was initially did he was so mushroom. So that's Allegro certain
felt that right bright, so John Margo Allegro author of the sacred mushroom in this role, so he he releases that book and nineteen seventy and he claims that Christianity is the guys for a near eastern fertility cult, and is I mean, I think it's very interesting but there aren't many linguists who who support the proposition right. There's there's a lot of people to disagree with them pretty heavily right. I mean front from a purely linguistic perspective. Its I mean to explain it briefly, so he says that. Did you read his sacred mushroom in the cross? Did you read it several times? Did you read the dead sea scrolls in the christian myth as well from Lego, yeah yeah, that's the one that was so the catholic Church bought out the original one right and the it was very difficult to get a hold of for the longest time he had to buy copies of it. I probably heard rumours to that effect, yeah yeah, and then he so he comes out the second book, the dead sea girls in the christian math. What what? What did not knowing
as much as you know about language. What what did you did you feel like you made leaps? Did you feel like him? these connections that may be were based on speculation is so he writes in its pure philology right. So it is worth games and things that only linguists, I mean, I think it's incredible, that that people who aren't linguist can actually read that it's really really difficult to read sacred mushroom in the cross, but that the basic premise is that the new testament written in Greek has this semitic substratum so underneath the Greek, the off the gospel writers and and and Paul are actually referring to different terms and he or aromatic, and that these terms haven't in turn come from the Sumerian which linguists would say is a language. Isolate that there is a real relationship between Sumerian and the Indian, european languages like Greek and the Semitic so the the of the argument- is something that most linguists don't accept.
However, an crawl rock has written the afterward to one of the additions. You probably have a sacred mushroom in the cross and he gets into some complex theories about psycho Linguistics and this interest, idea that just because they they aren't related, there are certain work, certain name, certain vocabulary like plant definitions which which would carry across the different languages, and I find that somewhat interesting, when you, when you dig into the the words that Allegra was recreating he's, he plays an asterix, actually met next, two hundred and twenty two, these words, because they can't be Carrabba
by the ancient texts. So some of these sumerian words he he straight up hypothesize, is as existing they're, not really can't really be found in the existing tablets. That's so it's it's hard to correlate some of those meetings. He dropped down from the Cimmerian, but that said, he makes it very interesting claims, for example like in one Corinthians, twenty two there's this interesting line or says about that. We we preach Christ, crucified is, is a scandal on for the Jews and a folly for the Greeks and scanned alone in Greek means, like I'ma bolt or a snare like a trap and Allegro ties it to like a in an era make which is like the woody, what he calls the bolt mushroom and in Samaritan cushy Gila, and so he saying that pause actually telling the Jews that you know the the Christ crucified is a mushroom instead of us, and, along its like it, like a code word like the scandal is a mushroom and then for the Greeks. He says it's a folly which is Moda in Greek, which
means Mandrake, which is another psychedelic plant. So there's all this is different were play going on, but it's really hard to tease out any physical forensic evidence for this stuff, which was what was was a leg rose, possessed and if I recall correctly, that these sacred mushroom was sir I'm Anita area that was even the cover of his book photo that's where I have a, I think did amazing work. But that's that's one area where I, where I have a problem with with Germany, to Moscow area as the as the psychedelic of choice in early Christianity, because inch in germanic cultures, where I'm Anita Moscow area is used. It recognised that the potion that the mushroom is much more effective? After is and passed through a human body, or indeed through the body of reindeer and emerged in Urim, and so so the that those those search should chauvinistic.
Cultures of Siberia use amanita mascara by drinking it in the urine of a shaman who has previous Lee consumed the mushroom- and I dont see a lot of evidence for that in any Christianity, and it's why I like the way Brian has done looking. There really hard evidence for psychedelic in early Christianity which are not which are not in this case, I'm ready to miss Gloria. If I'm correct Brian, isn't it speculation about emanated miscarry that it seasonable it's it's seasonal. It's also Gina Equally variable like there's, did those different species out like much like different fruits tastes differently? Theirs, different versions of the amity miscarry that have more psychedelic camp compounds in them and then there's all sorts of ways of preparing them, that we have completely lost am I getting this wrongs? Avonlea had well and the miscarry experience, and it wasn't very convincing This is this is often often the case, but but I'm told I have not had the experience myself, but I'm too,
all that, if you can bear the idea of drinking machines urine after he or she has consume the amanita miscarried, you will have a really powerful journey. To you, don't want to shaman just laughing hysterically after you drink the absolutely jobs. Are you stupid? Theirs is also so many correlations between emanated, miscarry and Santa Claus and Santa Claus TAT two shamans theirs. The Red White yeah yeah? There's also that you know the bag of the toys, the the fact that they would try them on on these coniferous trees. The fact that this these to have this Michael rise, a relationship with coniferous trees with a they tend to grow. Under pine trees, which is the train and we use for Christmas either for the fact that their bright red, like a toy, is in a package waiting for a child, when up it's there. So many these weird connections, the colors, the fact that right endear or with Santa Claus the fact these reindeer fly
through the Heavens. I mean this in that caribou are notoriously attracted to am Anita, miscarry mushrooms. In fact, invalid have had get out, rituals and gone. Outside to your native talked about caribou, knocking them over to try to get to the urine caribou. Our reindeer They have been observed eating these things, so they have this weird relationship. As things are together connected in some sort of us, range way and is also a history of sham on a rituals being outlawed in Siberia and the way they got around it was they would come through. The chimney which is discussed crazy, they would, they would climb onto people's roofs and and and slide on the chimney to deliver the mushrooms Well, it's just another another example of the way that our culture takes an ancient historical truth and completely castrate it and turn and turns it into Santa Claus. You know we're That's what we're at what we are actually dealing with our profound
experiences in deeply altered states of consciousness. What's also, this information seems to have been lost fairly recently, because if you go back to the early nineteenth fifties and fortys and look at birth, the Christmas cards, the Christmas, cards and depictions of Christmas almost always contain and elves an eminent miscarry, mushrooms, Domini, miscarry mushroom was synonymous with Christmas for some strange reason Have you seen those? Oh, yes, crazy right? What is that whether the fairy tale books to Ugandan can avoid the Manila yeah everywhere. You look, which is why I think Allegro was also interested ready in nineteen seventy and studying it in the fifties and Sixtys. I think that's why he climbed onto the agenda such an unconvincing mushroom like that. That I know that have experienced it in terms of a psychedelic ritual Just I don't know anybody who's really blown their brains out with it. Now in, and Gordon Watson also thought it was the the ingredient behind Soma as well. He writes a book about this in nineteen sixty,
so my divine mushroom immortality that that would that was his guest to four for summer, but Watson was experienced with silver side than that. She's, so universally regarded as being effective. That's why so confusing? I always found that strange too, to be honest so Watson I mean to explain where this, where this comes from Watson. Has this incredible experience with Maria Sabena and nineteen fifty five and fifty five in Mexico and when he consumes the so we think Selasa be Mexicana and he is catapulted to the Heavens, and he has this vision that that he describes, as the realist thing he's ever experienced under the influence of the Psilocybin
and the thought occurs to him? He writes later one thousand nine hundred and fifty seven life magazine. He says that the that could it be the case that the divine mushrooms are in fact the answer behind the ancient mysteries, which is why he then went and started looking at the Omni, perhaps or eventually ergot, which is where I picked up the scent at some point. In his correspondence with with Albert Hoffman, They together began focusing on gonna, like we said, because it so common and so natural, but so highly toxic to and Albert claimed, to have this experience with it and so for four years and years after teaming up with call rock, they were convinced that urban had had to somehow be involved. So what is the speculation and what the Eucharist originally was? According to the early gnostics yeah, I mean what is there any text that
Explains what the initial food was. While we have the canonical explanation from the gospels we have, and we have saint Saint Paul S, letter the honest answer and I think and any priest would say this too, is the honest answer. Is we don't know? You know that Ops are written anytime between sixty five and one hundred Paul's pause There's are some of the earliest writings that we have like they're the letter to the Corinthians, for example, he's right here I sent about five thousand three hundred and eighty. And the way he describes what's happening? There is very, very interesting: maybe we can we can pull it up. Actually, I brought us some of the some of the Greek from the new Corinthians. It's it's under Christian Pharmacon and the for Corinthians, one thousand one hundred and thirty. So at some point I was looking for. I was looking for what that original eucharist was dependent and where it was taken
You have yet to think about the the greek role at this time. You know Jesus is born and in the in the holy land, but Christianity really takes root in the Greek speaking parts of the empire, which is why Paul's letters are written. Two greek speaking, people right. And why it's interesting to follow this theory, because you have the ancient Greeks can greekan the pagan world, but you also have ancient Greek speaking Greekan this christianizing world, and so the people in Corinth is this church not far from elusive by the way in fact today it's only an hour west of elusive and one of the earliest churches is there and Paul is addressing this early church in Greek and at the at the bar. You can really the English but he's essentially yelling at them for consumers. The wrong kind of eucharist, and earlier in this. In this chapter he calls it a cup of demons and at the end he says, that's why so many of you are weak and sick and a no if you have fallen asleep and I highly that that the word came on tie their so
We might also in Greek. I can tell you for certain: does not me, to fall asleep claim by means to die, because it's the exact word that Johns Gospel uses about Lazarus member Famous miracle were Lazarus dies and he's resurrected be, shitty miracle, if Lazarus was just taking a nap and Jesus went to wake them up from a nap. So the same verve there? What Paul saying here is that he's concern, that so many Corinthians are drinking a wine that is causing them to die. Why would we cause you to die in a greek world that had no distilled liquor. There was no heart alcohol in ancient Greece. still liquor doesn't enter Europe until much much later. Eighth, ninth tenth centuries. Eighty right at this time, there's no word Alcohol either. Alcohol is arabic. If you listen to the word like alchemy or algebra or alcove. All these AL words all come from the Arabic AL is like the article in Arabic, like L, in spanish or ill in Italian. So
at this point. Wine is not known for its alcoholic content. Wine is a potion that is routinely mixed with all kinds of stuff: toxins, spices, perfumes and plants herbs. Fungi, and here we don't know what to make of it. But the Corinthians are drinking. Something that's causing them to die, but the word is die coy motto: absolutely means to die, because it's the word that in fact, in good so the next lie Jim. It's, though, if you look at operate there in means just like we would say the sleep of death, but it means death and elsewhere in the gospels. It's the exact word used for what happened. Lazarus before his miraculous, resurrections the whole point of the miracle. He is coma. Oh, he has fallen asleep to the death of sleep. Well, so,
the speculation is that there is some sort of a psychedelic or a fund or something that's in the wine that's causing the die in their using it regularly recreational and they're they're trying to discourage this. That's that that's how I read it. And its, and it's not just based on a random read of of this one lining Corinthians it's based on. You're standing of of of what greek wine actually was, how far back it goes, which is centuries and centuries before this, how it was mixed, what it was mixed with, even in the first century, there's a guy called discourteous agree. A greek pharmacologists, in fact, he's called the father of drugs and, at the same time, that these gospels and paused letters are being written, he write. Something called them
America, as these five books in Greek and every drug prescription you ve ever had in your life, exists because discourteous wrote that manuscript and in that manuscript in book five he list out and in book five alone, fifty six different recipes for spiked wine and in the Greek he shows you had a spike wine with everything from Salvian to Hellebores to Henbane, which he says is good for swan genitals. So if you have sworn genitals, do you? U dissolve henbane into wine? He says if you drink, Mandrake wine like Allegro was talking about. Mandrake it'll kill you in one cup full and then he says this about black night shade in Book four: seventy four he says: if you dissolve nightshade into wine, it will produce funtasia. Oh I aid nice, which in Greek means not unpleasant visions. So, just from the literature we can tell that the Greeks, absolutely new
had a spike wine with very powerful substances? Grandma gonna tell you your your microphone is really sensitive, so aid. We knew anything it any more when a breathing it bangs around, for whatever reason just just have to make wherever it I'm scientists, as is still now everything's fine, but each time you bet it's just really. It overpowers everything unfortunate idea. Sorry! Can I be turned down at the switchboard I don't think that's what it is. I think this title in the recording Messrs J, Jamie, clean it up writing down. It's ok, he's writing down all the noises, that's how good Jamie's I wanted to bring up sage to you, because one of the things that you you talked about with Salvia Salvia is sage right. They are basically in the same Species ITALY's when those pray would be walking down the aisle and they would be blowing sage. The burning sage was
for some sort of a psychedelic effect? Is that the reason why they were doing so when it when it comes incense. We actually have an answer now, I'm not sure if you know this, but earlier this year in May, there were some researchers in Israel who released one of the first Archeo chemicals studies of ancient incense. Have you heard about them down said so, just in May at a place called Tell added in Israel, south of Jerusalem. The dead sea, there was the organic remains of some kind of incense that was burned on these two alters that is described by the research as kind of a scaled down version of Solomon's Temple, it's data to the eighth century BC. So in the Judah height period, we could feasibly say the beginnings of the judeo christian period, yeah there. It is Franken sense. I love that word, so I
archeo chemical analysis and in this the sample had actually been excavated years ago in the nineteen sixties and was deposited in the museum. But the thing with with with this the science which is amazing, is that they can resurrect this stuff, no matter when it was excavated, so fortunately wasn't contaminated and after analysis, they found it contained. Tee c c, b and c b end so that hydrogen aben all kind of Canada, Dial and Canada, and so it's the first. They say it's the first example of psychoactive drug use in the ancient. Holy land. Essentially so when they were walking down the aisle would they use only will we know that was cannabis, but sage was used as well. And sage is Salvia Dive, Norum, which is a more potent psychedelic than cannabis, I think that's a new world plant, though, is I'm if I'm not mistaken
I mean at least the one you're you're thinking of so when they use set me see new world italian, but european were in the Americas, America's really so the sage use when they would in that. What is that gram? You would know this. What is that thing that they walked on the aisle with when they blow a sense? A sensor? That's really was gone. The sense will say, and s o is that a set of sensors are needed? in Dublin on Tundra, their censorship there, so they most certainly using cannabis or something else. They were burning, getting really hot and Frankenstein and, what is frank, incense it's it's an hour, magic spice, so it smells smells. We don't think it's like. Who acted, but maybe at the right dose it could be, but the Canada certainly was so they would give everybody marijuana small just walk down the aisle and blow marijuana smoke, one. If I may add whether or not the smoke smoke is
code. It is adding to the experience it's adding to the to the setting and again anybody who's worked with. Psychedelics will know that the setting is at least as important as the substance itself, so there they are masters of creating this, this mysterious and powerful. An energizing setting in which the psychedelic experience can then unfold. It's such a bummer that We know so little about what exactly was going on. But so nice that someone like you has done these deep dives into it, or at least we could pull out whatever we can, and it just makes me think like what work. Where would we be of people like you weren't doing this itself It's so rare. This is why I'm not doing dnt man- I wouldn't be doing it. I don't know you might be doing it with more feverish need. You might be really obsessed with it. It's it's
so strange and grandma always go back to your your statement, which I think is it it's a great quote that were a species with amnesia in regard to archaeology, our history, but also in regard to our use of psychedelic, with you, we ve just not being given the straight scoop about about our past. Sometimes it's just purely the way that scholars work that I it workin- and sometimes I think in the crowd case of Christianity, it is actually a kind of Firstly, I think there was a deliberate effort to cover up the role of psychedelic than you could see why priests in the developing roman catholic faith, who already pull down the jack boot of the Roman empire see why they wouldn't like that congregations using psychedelic? Because when you use psychedelic, you have a direct experience of the divine and hey? You don't need that EAST anymore, the bridge,
does an intermediary between you and the divine becomes becomes redundant and I think that there was a concerted effort to cover up the role of psychedelic since early Christianity and to prevent the different narrative, which it was purely was the the bread the wind, the blood on the and the body of Christ in a symbolic sense, I'm not in an in an actual sense of a substance that connects us to the divine so that the literature that connects the ban, of of these psychedelic rituals in fourth century are saying: how does it describe And what was the reaction by the people. I mean at the time, so you have to remember that the good mysteries, existed for a long long time, We don't know exactly how long, but
SK, evaders and and this this began in an elusive, for example in eighteen, eighty, seven that they they did it back to at least fifteen hundred BC. So if, if it survive until the fourth century, a d you're talking almost two thousand years as long as Christianity itself has been around, and the mysteries themselves, and there are serious scholars who came along in the seventies to say this could have prehistoric routes, which is how I started. The investigation by by asking how how this actually got to the Greeks, because what's interesting about this kooky on potion, for example- is that it's not wine based and in that him to Demeter that came down to Us- she's actually offered wine in this mythical story that takes place she's out looking for her daughter, Persephone who's been abducted and kidnapped to the underworld and she looks for her for nine days and nights and cant find her and she she rest her bones, exhausted Luis and they try to offer her wine and she says no. She wants that or barley and meant and again Hoffman
and and rock thought it was kind of like a primitive version of beer. If you think about it, reads like a very simple beer recipe now for the Greeks all the way, through the classical period through played on afterwards for them to be drinking beer instead of wine is very, very weird for them to have a secret, mystery religion. That's not written down, remember the civilization that birth literature and the concept of the university. As we know it is also very weird. So it's like there. They are Retaining this very prehistoric ritual and this very prehistoric beverage, which is beer and as I trace it back further and further, you can see clues of beer being used in Funuary. Mortuary rituals rituals as far back as thirteen thousand years, and there are some who think that that beer actually precedes bread. At that moment, we call the agricultural revolution the up
petty living becomes neolithic and Graham writes a lot about this very beautifully at GO: Beckley Tepid, for example. Not so I was able to trace back the potential brewing of religious beer all the way back to about these happy and the speculation is of this religious beer had some urgent in it. Possibly it's it's possible, it's possible. We, we haven't done much testing for our got that far back, and we were that that that that's why I want to write this book is because the science is relatively new. Archeo chemistry, for example, is relatively new. It's it's some of the better findings have been coming out over the. Twenty years, which is which is like a baby in the sciences. In fact, a Pat Mcgovern at the University of Pennsylvania, who I interviewed for the book, described Archeo chemistry at the time in the late nineties, when he was in producing some incredible fines as low as like an infant which would make it like a toddler today and so we're just beginning.
To put these pieces together. So we can't say they were psychedelic beer. Thirteen thousand years ago, the core right now is- I was their beer at all and there are is very early indications, echo Beckley Tippy itself that they were brewing beer and at another. Site to the southwest in Israel at Mount Carmel outside Haifa? There's this really interesting place called the Roca Fett Cave and it was a burial site with about thirty individual jewels. This is between eleven thousand seven hundred BC and nine thousand seven hundred BC from Stanford went in there and they found these bowl. Mortars in which they found traces of the malting and matching of greens, which they think was forbear. This is thirteen thousand years ago. Gram which brings us to the Paleolithic, and then we have the whole mystery of rock and cave art all around the world. So Brian is right. We haven't got the analysis that proves
the psychedelic was in that thirteen thousand year old beer. But what We do have thirteen thousand years ago and going back much further twenty seven, forty fifty thousand years ago, is art that really only makes sense. As psychedelic art I mean what, where else, but a visionary state, do you see an entity that is part human part animal inform that is part of lion and part of human being. It's not something you see every day, it's not something that you see when you're out hunting game, but seeing the he's very I'm throb says they are cold, is about a common experience in deeply altered states of consciousness. So the art itself speaks to us of artists who had had for the experiences in deeply altered states. What what the conventional, conventional speculation about those images, half man, half animal images, increasingly it is that that they document psychedelic states
A professor at the University of Iowa was round in South Africa, David Lewis, Williams written a book called the mind in the cave, whose document Did this in in great detail that the only possible explanation for this which is found all over the world is not just found in one region or one place, is that the artists were shamans, that they were. Experiencing altered states of consciousness and when they return to a normal everyday state of consciousness, they remembered their visions and pay did them on cave walls. Those visions, what what might well be a lion man or a bison man, and that today had communicated with them just in the way that entities communicate with us today, under the influence of the empty or set aside it did. You have a sense of urgency while you're writing this, like the Jew, understand that this is something that Very few people who are legitimate scholars are going to really tackle It hadn't been done, and I don't I don't know why nobody was was doing this and
binding, the humanities and the linguistics. With with with the sciences I've been waiting for book to come along and no one wrote it. So you had to write it. Your son that wasn't doing DMT had had plenty of free time. How long did it take twelve years? Wow? Was there any point in time where you're like what the fuck am. I doing If you ask my wife, especially you're, supposed to be a lawyer, man, no one's paying you for this you went to the Vatican was it was the real issue yet absolutely absolutely yes at some. You know it. This is a good point. This is this is really really hard and it brings up something. I've been talking with. The research is about this too. When I talk about Archeo Chemistry mention PET Mcgovern at you, pen, there's another Andrew CO at MIT and every time question these guys are then answered. Andrews, awesome, he's again, guy in his mid forties, he's
he's been doing this stuff is his whole life. He has a background in classics like like. I do and Oh he's. The only person I've I've talked to who see is like the the legitimacy of this kind of pursuit, because he's one those guys who can think about the humanities and the scientists at the same time. But it's it's tough. This there there there is no discipline for this. You can't get a phd in the hunt for ancient and toxic ants no one's out. There are studying, for it just doesn't exist and those who do study it and find it very. Very hard to get gainful employment. You can't get paid to do this stuff and so little bit later, we'll talk about two archeo chemist. I've been in touch with who have remarkable findings that I want to share here, but they ve each since left the discipline so they were doing incredible work twenty years ago, the late nineteenth and early two thousands were finding incredible things, but I mean life being what it is. They had to leave the profession. Let's get to that now, who are they and what are they? Oh there there's a couple different guys, one of their, so there are two fines.
I really want out of my way to put into this book. One is define find hard evidence of this organized beer and the other is trying to find an actual hard evidence. Of of wine that's been spiked and, ideally that would that would be. Spite wine in the context of some kind of christian ceremony, or or some synthetic Greek christian ceremony in the first century, a d And so I spent years and years turning contact with folks and reading through the arch bone, journals and I'll start with the ergot first, since I was really kind of fascinated with ergot and this hypothesis is from nineteen. Seventy eight, because it sits there for now forty years and there's no hard data to come by, and people often argue about our got the same way. We. You argue about I'm Anita and the other candidates, because its it doesn't make sense We know it's there. We know it's common, but it doesn't make the most sense as the thing that would have spiked. This beer so I spent a long time looking for urgency,
beer or any beer that was spiked? Now, if you go to the top Archeo chemist or Archeo botanists in the US, the UK or europe- and I did for many years- and I asked them the very simple question: is there any botanical or chemical data of beer having been bite with academics and the universal answer that would always come back. Is no and so I asked them again and the answer would be no, and so I started to think about the ancient Roman. What that meant and what ancient Greece, men and so first I to the site at a loses two asked the archaeologists there. If we could test her vessels- and I couldn't leave that nobody had ever asked her if they could submit the test of the vessels to chemical testing, and so I flew there and I talk to her about it and she said, unfortunately, they ve all been treated. For conservation purposes, they put them in museums and they exhibited to the public, and when you do that, you, u contaminate the artifact and it's no longer testable. So that was my dead end.
And that's where things stop for a while and that's where my way does asking you know right here, look pretty face yourself and left you, two daughters at home for no reason sake. It If you could test her her and and she told you and and now what you going to do, and so I said I'm going to get creative men, and so I thought the ancient greek world. Here's the thing about the ancient greek world, in in the wake of Alexander the great who was called the great for a reason: the greek influence after the fourth Third Centuries BC, what stretched all the way from Iberia, Spain and Portugal to Afghanistan and the east a much off if many folks realised that, but the the Greek speaking or the Greek fluids part of the world was enormous, and so, if you're looking for evidence of this cookie on, why would you restrict yourself to Athens and elusive? So I took a step back and I started thinking. Where else would there be a greek presence and
I didn't expect to find one. But I I landed on Iberia eventually, because I started researching ergot, indifferent languages. That was that was my first clue. You know them in English, we have this one weird word for it: ergot that actually in German there's lots of words for it. Bizarrely enough, maybe it's because of the history of, but in German there's, con Mouton told Con, which means crazy. Corn, crazy, green are totally corn, which means death, corn, so it's it's weird that as you look elsewhere, it seems to be more When did the german mind and then Spanish, I just started ran googling for what that is, its called corners. Then send Centeno in Spanish and a couple things our popping up and this these notions of spiked beer started popping up where they weren't supposed to. I never expected to find them, so the first hit that came in was from an archaeological site kind of an in the Middle Midwest of Spain called the vital to lead and there in two thousand
in three. They found a greek vessel called Greek Chalice caught a cabin us and it's the same the vessel, that's used in the alley? Simeon mysteries? It's it's like this little cup with a tiny cup on the outside. I brought a picture for you if you want to see a shore Jamie AM in Moscow stage are, if you scroll to the bottom and copy of p twenty nine, so this this, this Kate, that's it so this came from a site called than Acropolis of less relate us and than Acropolis of less per way. Thus is this archaeological site that was dated two about the second century BC. Now these are in greek people. This is a pre roman population called the vodka or the vaccines, but for some reason in this garden, ass, it tested positive forbear. Spiked with I was sky, I mean, if you go to the to the next, have Jamie you'll see that they rode up it? It's in spanish, but
there you'll see that the number seventy six and seventy seven when they tested the katanas, which is a very greek word by the way when they tested the katanas it tested positive for traces of Ohio sky mean I was sky mean, can only occur in the solanaceous plants, these nightshade plants you're talking, so it's the family of plants. That includes very boring things like the tomato or the potato. Or tobacco, but it has these night shades like Mandrake again hen or henbane, and so it's one of those alkaloids alkaloids that could have been hen henbane, for example. So here you're talking about a henbane beer, which is really weird, the EU weirder part is that this is found in a funeral complex just like you'd find ECHO Beckley tat. They were the Rockefeller Cavan Israel thirteen thousand years ago here after thousands- and thousands of years you're seeing this pre roman population using beer spiked with henbane in a death cult,
and where the researchers say that it was used to either facilitate the deceased travel to the other world, or maybe the people who were there ushering the deceased into the other world? They actually use that phrase holy shit go back to that image of the cup again, please. So why does it have the cop, on the outside of it again, there's the large vessel and there's a small vessel to the side of it. We don't know that, that's just with it. That's what I kind of Knossos. If you scroll it possibly have been the portion control exactly If you scholar to the top Jamie you'll, see two other cat of noise and the top right there, and so this is this- is the next part of the of the, Lou. So so these came from a colony on the EAST coast of Iberia called empty on which was a bustling greek colony
and these are our care- are other categories vessels just like you would see at a loose, as these are the kinds of things that they think the initiates were drinking from. Not they don't make for very good drinking vessels, but maybe they they make for good mixing vessels liking like four dosage control. Something is going on there that that's that's what they thought. The cardinal was at elusive, for example, and that's what I wanted to test with the archaeologists there who said no, and so now we're finding these vessels in Spain, where they're not supposed to be- and I can say as a classicist or one time, wanna be classicist that the first thing you think of when you think about the ancient Greeks is not Spain and all of a sudden, I'm coming across this idea of spiked beer in Spain and she's not supposed to be there that so fascinating. So this image, what is the can go back to the original image sharing of the year of the cup with these small cup? Next
what what is there? What's the conventional description of what this is, and why shape this way I mean the spanish archaeology. They also call this a cat in us. They I mean it's it's the extent of the greek influence at that particular site. This is the Pinta archaeology Besides the extent of the relationship and the network is a little unclear, at least at least to me, it's unclear how strong the greek presence was there, but at that, I'm by the second century BC, because the Greeks were already in these other port cities. Basically, it's it's not inconceivable that some kind of trade with happening in these vessels would have made their way inland. Do they have a description as to why there's a small cup connected to the larger com it would be the same as as any greek art archaeologists has two. We dont know why this was this was associated with with the mysteries. No one knows why It really does logically makes sense that it would be some sort of apportioning cause. It's very small.
Obviously don't to have too much of that shit. It really does it really does make complete sense. Actually that's what it is that you take one portion of this and make it with ten portions of that yeah and then you're going to have an interesting journey. I can't think of another explanation of its. My hand, I will not qualified to speculate, but when I'm looking at their some thinking that completely that fits but you're on your on the right track, because that that that's that's where it led me to was portion control there and that's what I found next, which financed I've, found I found some things: man what'd you find man so getting us right, I'm Thinkin caranos vessels, and so the vessel did doesn't just show up in the middle of of in there it shows up on the coast at this, and so this this this town is called emotion, and today it's called amputees, and it's in Catalonia and Northeast Spain close to the border with France, and to be totally honest,
I've never heard of and put it on, and I'm not sure if many classes have, but it was a bustling import. Export business of the ancient Greeks founded by the foci ends, who came from Ionia, which is today modern day Turkey and they found this place in five hundred and seventy five BC, and we we think that their religion comes with them or some kind of religious, Jamie. If you go back to to Moscow stage, you can see just an exterior shot of what this this colonial town looks like and when you look at it again their Yemen. It looks that way. Southern Greece that could be an island in Greece that that's on the northeast coast of Spain. That's a statue of scape use, the greek God of Healing standing in a courtyard in Spain and the statute dates to at least first Century BC. Why? And we don't know really
going on, but in the next slide the falcons who founded this place were devotees of. That's that's supposed to be Persephone on the left. The Goddess procession, the goddess of the underworld, the same goddess, who the initiates would find when they made their pilgrimage to elusive and drank the potion. They went there to meet for seventy and there she is on their coins. Why, and then it gets more interesting how so so that these people don't don't stick to the coast. They go inland at some point and they go. Then for a reason and there's a site that they felt that they found called Moscow stage out of upon those. It's a tiny town called Porthos and there's this farm that the archaeologists describe as a greek farm a bit further inland Jimmy. If we go we go back to the the same file there. We can just click through a bunch of the images and the kinds of things that they found there, which are indicative of the greek mysteries so that, starting with her
example, that was that was unearthed at this archaeological site and Porthos, and the archaeologists responsible for this It has been the same woman over the past since nineteen ninety her name is entering the ponds. She on this and other objects. She calls this the head of Persephone or it could be the head of Demeter, but she either way she thinks it's a greek goddess, and this is third century BC. So obviously, there's some intense influence. These are Greco Italian M M, for I also did to the third century BC and the next one that also some kind of Demeter for that's an incense burner by the way you you stick incense in the top of it lighted up depending on what your incenses and its use in court rituals that's third century BC, and then it gets weirder. They find me
this fifth century BCE that belongs in the dining room and Athens, not on a farm in Spain. That's the origin of comedy right. There believe it or not. That's called a Como comos. An ancient Greek is one of these drunken parades in honor of the God Dionysus. These are the first paid regulars at the comedy store and he's got his dick out like are Shafir there. You go. Oh wow. That's crazy! So then it gets weirder just south of the site. They find this, and this is clip tolumnius trip, tolerance. Is kind of the missionary of the mysteries. So after Demeter establishes her temple in a they, they send this guy to go scouring the earth to carry the knowledge of the grain and farming across across Europe.
And if you go to the next one. Jamie you'll see that its it's very similar to the kind of trip Thomas things that show up in Greece. This is from the elusive museum on site and loss. If you compare the two. You see a dude on a flying dragon, cart and laughed, and Adieu on a flying dragon cart the right they're, both trip. The last place I ever expected to find trip. Tolumnius was a farce, in Spain and there. It is why. So? If trips Miss tells you anything. It tells you that the mysteries went west when they're not supposed to by the way Graham a little earlier to this incident that happened in Athens in four hundred and fourteen BC. To celebrate the mysteries outside of a lusus is a sacrilege, a total sacrilege. It was called the proclamation of the mysteries and one of Socrates.
Our disciples this guy Alcibiades was was caught indulging in the mystery ceremony at home instead of at the Temple, and he became the Ed Snowden of the ancient world whose ostracized they would have killed him if it didn't run from Athens. So this was serious stuff and sacred stuff, so for them to be celebrating the mysteries you think about it kind of makes sense, because no one's looking over their shoulders. Fan if it's going to happen anywhere, maybe add beyond in the hinterlands of the empire. So this is people that realized that they wanted to continue these rituals and they couldn't do it in Greece, or they have to get out right. We're earth are these were folks who either couldn't afford or didn't want to go all the way to a loses. I mean you're in Spain, I imagine getting to you, for you can get to lose his today. Imagine getting too loses two thousand years ago, two thousand five hundred years ago. It's it's! really really difficult. This, if why I make it, if I may give a parallel, is rather like somebody seeking an eye Alaska experience today, and perhaps I can afford
to go all the way to the Amazon Rainforest or it just seems too big a journey, so they got look for somewhere near to home, where they can have that experience, and indeed Iowaska is available all over the world. Now yeah and that's pretty recently right, like within the last couple of decades, it's available all over the world read rapidly within the last couple of decades, and I think Brian is suggesting that a similar sort of thing was happening in the ancient world with a different substance. The guy's name, so right on the nose to trip too. I never thought about that right now, because I don't do dnt, but I mean trip people tripping. I mean it's just ridiculous. That his name is trip, puts interesting may look at him. In writing a dragon. His name is trip Thomas and on the next one to jam, you'll see there's another trip tell them is from from cupola. This is in ITALY, so he did go West, We know he went to ITALY and if he went to ITALY, why wouldn't he go to Spain and look at the style of art? It's completely greek wow.
Pretty psychedelic at the same time, yeah at regular ass. It is it's it's, but it so it's so uniform there in the three different locations. You have the same Madrid, while and so the question that was in half men and rock, would immediately immediately ask is what is true Thomas doing there? Is he really was he really sent as a missionary to teach people how to farm? That's that that's a traditional system that wheaten his hands. That's exactly right. He he was, he was. He was despatched to teach people how to grow cereals. However, across the period people know how to farm people are already farming, so it starts in the bread basket. Echo Beckley, Tepe and we have farming across Europe in Greece as early as sixty five hundred BC, its bye, bye forth so BC, it's all over Europe. Why would cryptologist need to be sent on a mission to teach people to do.
Something they already knew, how to do, which is farm, and so what they would say is he was teaching not not about growing the grain, but about what grow. Those on the grain which is earned, of course, and look someone's pouring something to yeah. That's one of those just ritual ablutions wow. So then it gets more interesting. Ok, waging Jamie where we were so away. Brian in addition to trip tolumnius and the head. Of damages for seventy and mitigate get the ponds finds this Jim, which is a two hundred and fifty square foot ritual. Sanctuary that she calls in spanish capes domestic, which is a house,
Hold shrine and she believes it's a household shrine that is specifically dedicated to reenacting, the mysteries of Demeter and Persephone for people who wanted to get in touch with their greek ancestors, and she calls this a ritual room for the living to interact with. The dead, but you still need some greek influence. So in the next slide, you'll see the altar where the activity was happening. Does that the greek vicar? So that's a column that was proven by Petra graphic analysis to have originated at the Mount Pentelicus Quarry northeast of Athens. It came from Greece. Sitting in Spain and what they're doing on that aside from burning incense all around is their sacrificing dogs. They found the remains of three female dog, there's only one goddess in Greece associated with that and that's Hecate, who is the mother of the witch Cersei and the patroness of all witches and their sex,
dogs to her, because she's known as the Kuno ages in Greek, which is the dog eater. Why. The other things you find in that room. Aside from the Greek alter and the greek goddess to whom dogs are being sacrificed in an underworld, jerk where the living in dead or communing is a greek hearth and advocate that uses the greek word Escada for that you can go to the next one Jamie. So, in addition to the greek altar and the greek art she finds these, which are very greek, shaped cups. These are called kantos us. The Cantos is the ritual vessel. That was only used by the God in ISIS to drink his magic potion. She finds about ten of these in around the area and when I heard all this after the Greek influences swimming on this place, I called up call rock who had at the time was eighty four years old is now eighty five
are old and his career was severely impact it. After the release of nineteen thousand nineteen, seventeen of the road to a loses his career, essentially tanks. It was the classic case of the wrong book at the wrong time. He was not supposed to write this because he did. He was deposed as the clear as the chair of the classics department. He was cut off from grad students. He was discouraged from interdisciplinary scholarship with his colleagues and he became the drug became. You know, classicist, don't write about drugs, but the book really really impact at his life and he became kind of the black sheep of the class. Six estate and there's no evidence to prove that this urgent ties beer actually exist, and so you know his suit his career kind of went into a nosedive, and so I ve been keeping him up to speed on all this work, and so I called him up and invited him to come. See this. This ritual chapel
with me, and so that's him getting his very first look at the incense burner and and the cup, and there is an ancient staring contest with Demeter looking at this cup, and I didn't take him all the way to Spain just so. He could look at a cup it's because of what was in the cup and so in. Mid nineteen nineties after was excavated. This woman and I anakata the archaeologists for some reason. We don't know why she got in touch with a young archeo botanist I mentioned before godly and they subjected this chalice to analysis and what they found was beer wow. So this thing was filled at some point with some kind of ritual beer that was used in some kind of ceremony, dedicated to
and Persephone, but that's not all they found. They also found the remains of ergot, and it is the first and most compelling data to support this scorn. Hypothesis from nineteen. Seventy eight that's ever emerged. What was that like for him to experience that it had to be just completely mind blowing, but also frustrating that he would right all along, and I expect that to women, and I asked him I've a video of of me talking to him at the chapel asking what this all means- and he was he's he's not salty about it. He ordered two years forty two year not at all. Now he's got a good life he's happy. I think he, I think he feels he. I think he feels vindicated yes
and and- and I know he's excited to talk about this in public- and this is the first time we're talking about in public, and I know he wants to dive deep on this. But this is something he's dedicated his entire professional life too, and he is, you said, he's eighty three, eighty five, eighty five, how How is he holding up physically he's? Ok, now he's in quarantine. He lives in this beautiful pre revolutionary war home that I went to visit a couple years ago. I describe it as such Thing like the British Museum, having been ransacked by a group of mischievous else, he is, he said, to mushrooms and bust busts of Demeter and he's got some. Some artifacts belong to Gordon Watson, who was his mentor many ways you Father figures, from seventy eight on he was his balls deepen the stuff he drove head in.
Instead of turning around after he was the elder for being the drug. I he, if you look him up and hid his save ii, this this is it's all he does is, is right about the potential use of drugs in the in the ancient world. Did he have personal experiences? Many yeah? That's probably, why start right as a matter there is really no reason and not as a of fact, when I mention that letter from Albert Hoffman to Gordon Watson in nineteen, seventy six when he, when he self the organ Avin he sent some in the letter it says he sent some in the mail to Gordon Wasson, who politely declined and maids and made rough. Do it and say wow so for rock like what was it like for you to be able to show this to rock, to give him hard evidence to show him these cops to tell him about the test that were done. The fact they discovered her got the fact that they know these vessels were holding beer me. This vindication,
to be there physically. While this vindication emerges a psychedelic man, it was really emotional. I mean it's still emotional for me and I mean to be clear there there there's more testing and more now says that needs to be done. This is this. Was this was twenty years ago, and breaking news is that that original sample may may be stashed away somewhere at the university of bars. And Georgie was gonna, go look for it covered, So we very much want to retest this stuff and code. Mit very much wants to get a chemical sample. So I wanna be a little careful, but the way it exists today is extraordinarily compelling and odds, are there's, probably even more evidence, some of which hasn't even been excavated Enfer for Rockets or for the field in general. I think it's it's! It's really in. I think its extraordinary. While the dots are connect themselves. I mean that's, what's really amazing about it? It's it's! If you look at what you ve discovered individually
look at the history of these people getting together and having these rituals and what we know about psychedelic some particular alas day and went out but have been, is shown in any people have experienced at last. He now mean that all fits right in now makes sense. It's crazy it's just it and what what? Where would we be? If you didn't write this book? That's what's really interesting. You know it's there's two: seven, plus a billion people on this planet it just takes one person to not listen to their wife. The next thing. I know you hear that pj you hear that he was right. God is she cool? I think you just save my marriage. I swear. I swear to Christ. I think you just save my marriage she's cool with it. Now no, I mean no. She wants to see how this goes and then she'll be cool. Oh it'll go great man. This book's gonna sell like crazy. Are you gonna do an audio version. I read it myself
When is that going to be out it's out? Is it out, right now or today, or tomorrow, yeah? Okay, because I tried to look for it yesterday, I really was on it wasn't or on no apple. I wasn't available. Okay, the twenty nine th. I think the publication date is the twenty nine th of September and that's also the same publication date as the paperback of my lost civilization book America. Before I want to be clear that the MOTO, Key is Brien's book yes you run my contribution to it is the forward, and I grateful to Brian for asking me to to do that. I think Brian has done really important work and I think the next step now is to mystify this field and get more science at work on this subject, instead of just closing our eyes and closing our minds to these extraordinary possibilities that we've been radically misled about our own pass yeah, and I think that, thanks to the great work of Rick Darlin and to extract man in yourself in so many other people that have contributed to this issue,
now something that people are allowed to speculate about its now something the people allowed to test. Yes, people are having real legitimate conversations about these things now, yet this this it. This was the attack, to use twenty first century science to test an ancient hypothesis, and part of the part of the ancient Greek ancient Greece and other parts, Christians, Christians and all we had for a long time was Allegro, so I spent some time if rock was right about this. Was rock write about what he writes about the Christians and he does right about psychedelic sacraments in the Christian and what was his speculation about psychedelic sacraments, the Chris He also likes the amanita muscara, really yeah. Why is everybody like that? One? Do you think this is also I'm asking you is the person who has an experience psychedelics
I do not know. Very many people have had successful experiences with its very confusing, but I do recognise that its entire MIKE Mckenna speculated very much that we ve lost our ability to understand like how to prepare. Where where when to prepare when to pick it and then it's seasonal and there's so many variables, I think I will ignorance about how to use these things. Our society, I speak of a species with amnesia. We ve often the old techniques and the old ways of doing things with that. There's been a concerted effort in the in the modern world to demonize these substances and cut them out of our lives and to associate them with irrational behaviour and craziness and so on and so forth, and to move to move forward in this field. It I hate to use the word, but it needs to be made more respectable, because it's the key to
standing so much about ourselves. That has been obscure and mysterious. Until now, it's for a person whose experienced in it so strange the contrast between the experience itself and the public's perception of it, particularly, The average person who has not experienced psychedelics, who looks at it like this frivolous, rid I thing like. Why would you engage in such a thing? Why would you I mean member had a conversation mitya kokoo about at once talking to him about a psychedelic, mushrooms and name. He was basically tellin me like scientists want to strengthen their mind. They don't want to ruin their mine. In that sense, I do not want to waste your mind on drugs. Now, there's a guy needs, do drugs
yeah. Exactly people mean about its people, make these kind of statements as though they are facts. Yet those people have had no experiences of the of the substances concerned by sitting. There is almost no reward for his career, you, you must have to say things like that, or at least then we're talking went, whereas cabotage with him more than a decade ago, probably fifteen years ago. So when you, when you have these experiences and you you know you run into the conventional perception of these. You understand that these people are almost like, like what have with rock and what happened with many other scours that took chances and discuss these things. You wound, up being this crazy person, you wanta beings, easily dismissed person and it's very it's. It's in many ways is discouraged in a very powerful way in and it could goes as there has been a hugely well organised and well funded propaganda war again
these substances. Our society prides itself on the alert problem, solving state of consciousness, and they allow problem. Solving state of consciousness does have an important role to play, but part of them adness of our society, why it's become so suicidally dangerous dangerous is because the problem problem, solving state of consciousness has been given monopoly monopoly position what psychedelics do is they undermine the dominance of the alert problem, solving state of consciousness, and they show us the much wider range of consciousness that is available and therefore they are insidious to the powers. That be those hours that run and control our world today. Don't want people think for themselves. They don't want the propaganda to be unpicked by a mushroom
and that's why we we face this propaganda war and what we're dealing with is the legacy of that propaganda, war and and the majority the majority of people, unfortunately, don't realize that they've been subjected to fifty or sixty years of lying propaganda. They think it's actually all facts yeah. This is what these to be unpicked. We're in the middle of a crisis in this country in regards to police, violence and police and brutality, and a big part of that is on warrant. It's a giant part of it, it's responsible for the Brian, Taylor Murder, which is being discussed right now, and people are protesting. I was a war on drugs, actually know knock raid meanness. That's that's what that's about in most of these war on drugs at all this is that this is the thing it's a completely maniacal idea, because, ultimately it's not the war on drugs and I've used this phrase before it's a war on consciousness yeah, I just he does not want certain kinds.
Of consciousness to be experienced in one To shut them down and added leads us like children. If adults, not free to make sovereign decisions about their own health, their own consciousness and their own bodies while doing no harm others, then freedom is a meaningless word. Yeah, unfortunately, Freedom is a meaningless word in the society we live in today. We do live in a heavily mind, controlled society, where facts are what where propaganda is disguised, as fact, I agree, but I think this battleship is slowly turning and these kind of that we're having right now, it's responsible in a big way for shifting the way people perceive these, thanks for the longest time, the only way we ve been explained to The only way these subjects have been explained to us has been in demeaning terms and that these are bad experiences in you gonna wreck your life, you gonna, ruin your life and in what way
you're saying why? Maybe you're better person these are revolutionary thoughts in the twenty first century that, in the fact that there are so many people echo any statements, and so many really intelligent, well educated people who haven't, ruin their lives. We have families and and they're saying, this, this is actually good for you. And you know if it did it comes down. I think it needs to be recast in the issue of of individual freedom and individual sovereignty. Of course, there must be limits on individual freedom. We must not do harm to others in exercising our freedom, but really taking us labelling is the least harmful thing is possible to do to. Anybody is an entirely inward experience, and it should not be controlled by the state and by government. What's happening here is that we are literally being treated like children as adults
and it's a most unfortunate aspect of our society. In the way I see government seeking to use the current crisis to add to its power to dominate people's lives to even enter into their homes, to encourage neighbours to snoop on one another. It's a very insidious trend. The wherein and the war on drugs has been a big part of that trend, for long time you're right Joe. The battleship is turning around and it's turning around because people are Waking up in there saying we're just not gonna put up with this shit any longer. We're not gonna, be told what to do in order to be treated as infants by our government here here and the thing about this. Academic argument to it. It falls apart the the idea of criminalizing it because it lacks all of the rationalizations that you can get with crystal Meth cocaine and death overdose addiction like mushrooms, are not addicting, these these answer than the not addicting interminable, even at even so. We already have laws that deal with now.
This behaviour towards others. So if somebody is on a particular substance and they harm somebody else, we have a law governing at home that they done to somebody as we don't need to have a law that enters the sanctum of the individuals consciousness entails that person what he or she may think and he or she may experience. It's really Huxley S core or will ask world aware that we're messing with here now when you talk to rock about Christiana and about the use of the avant miscarry mushroom does. Does he echo the statements of Marco Lego, does he buy into that, or does he have a parallel perspective on it? Its its interests. It is kind of a hybrid some of his writings he's a fan.
And of the media and in others he takes a broader approach, and I think that that was my approach. Looking at this too, because the one thing that pops out you from the ancient christian world, as is wine and the one thing that pops out at you from the ancient greek world is this- is this spiked wine and rock does right quite a a bit about that in the road to loosen the same book in nineteen. Seventy eight, where he talks about this organized beer. He is also talking about spiked why but again there wasn't much data to go on for the longest I'm so same as I was kind of scouring the ancient world for evidence of this organized beer. I took it upon myself to put his other crazy thesis to the test and I started looking at wine in the entire world, not just for the amanita. I did look for it by the way I for evidence. I didn't find any, but I found other evidence- and It starts at the Louvre. If I can show you a couple, Conall pictures Jamie. Can you go to the to the Louvre? That's the first time anybody's ever said. That
Jamie Jamie, so in in an obscure footnote from nineteen. Seventy eight rock talks about greek priestesses spiking wine He makes a reference to an old book from the early twentieth century by german scholar, called Freakin House and Freaking House talked about. This vas that was apparently in the loop that nobody'd ever seen, and I took it upon myself to try and find that Vas and so at the very top Jimmy. If you you, click on the drawing This is, this is a line drawing by frickin house himself of what he is apparently saw in the loop at some point in the early twenty. Century, and not many people have seen since. So. This is his illustration of what he recalls being on exactly exactly and if, if you take a look at it or resume into the woman on on the right can
see her preparing preparing additives for for the wine We can't really make out what they are, but the way frickin house drew. It kind, looks like a mushroom and her left him. He can't really tell. Rock says the other one is a sprig of some herb and again you can't really tell so I sent an email to the curator at the Louvre, Alexandra cut the anew, and I said I'd like to take a look. This and like to bring my my friend along and my friend is Father, Francis Tiso Roman catholic priest, who happens to be an expert botanist and herbalist. So I called up Father Francis from his laboratory in in the rustic parts of ITALY said, Father Francis, since you are trained a colombian Cornell Harbour Divinity School and you know Reading about plans will you come help, identify this for me, and so he said sure. So we met at the loop and we meet Alex
under an Alexandra says. You know these. Did this boss? I can find it for you, but it's not an exhibition. This is this is not in the public catalogue. This is in our storage. Room if you want, I can I can. I can take you to the storage room and show you. As far as you ve been looking for, and I saw a great and she takes us up to the to the second floor, pass the the statue of the wing at victory of Samothrace, and she ushers us into this completely empty stockroom, so the thousands and thousands means of greek wine vessels and they're sitting on a table on the next picture, Jamie are what she calls g for, o, eight and g for oh nine, and I believe this is one of the first color photographs taken of them there and so we don't know what's happening here, but we've moved from those mysteries of dine of Alesis to the mysteries of Dionysus and there's father Francis with the
with the magnifying glass trying to figure out what their adding to the wind and again this is just a painting right. We don't know if this is recording an actual event, but were speculating that that me be the artist try to record something for for posterity and this, Vas is from fifth century BC. It's called red figure pottery, so pretty old. And we take a look and as we lean and further I have many heart attack because the potter has been chipped who just from ass to where she is holding the their ingredient, So we have no idea what's in the right hand, but You try and guess what you think is, in the left hand, on the next. The next closer. So that's completely missing there, and this is all we have left with. Is that certainly could be a mushroom, but it could be a lot of things it could be. A lot of things
So it was a little disappointing. Ah so when he originally saw it. It had been chipped, so it happened, So maybe I mean this is how the stuff goes missing. This is how the stuff tat secret. We don't know how or why it was chipped he saw it chip. It was probably chipped at some point and in its long twenty five hundred year, history, nine, he just invented something to put their. What is to be what I was hoping to find. And was what you'll see in the next few slides- and this is from a separate, who'd, Lydia Fifth century BC at a museum in Turkey- and this is something rock has turned up over recent years these are women very similar dionysian tradition, adding plants and herbs to their wine, rock identifies that as ivy. If you linen, if you go the next one, Jamie. Is often often associated with so
The ancient writers refer to wine spiked ivy as drunkenness look drunkenness their eyes. Those ladies are tripping balls clearly there is this normal they, are wide eyed, the next ingredients. More interesting. So there is, is a second ingredient in the next slide. Very much unclear mushroom. Very much. I I mean that would be hard to describe as anything else. Yeah. So this is where the pottery takes us, which is which is not very far. I mean maybe the artist meant to leave a clue. Maybe represents an actual ritual. Maybe it doesn't we do know that the ancient authors are talking about this stuff alot
go to the next. The next lie Jimmy and after that whatever, whatever the wine was doing people. This is what it was doing. So when you die the wine of diagnosis. This is like that that commerce showed you that laws from Spain. This is this is not critical mass, but it's another kind of ritual parade this also in the loop, if you had, downstairs to the south? The Kate you'll see the gazing Vas from forty BC and before that, this is this typically how an initiate of the Dinesen Mysteries would be pictured and the next one Jamie right before that. So when they, when they drank the wine of Dionysus, it wasn't to get drunk, which one number fifteen for Gaza.
So I've never seen anyone walk up the middle aisle in a catholic mass and walk away. Looking like that, yeah that dude look smashed though it doesn't look these on mushrooms, he looks drunk. What is that thing above his shoulder, though, that looks like a mushroom rock, so that's called a fair sauce and the top part is called the not fix cognate with narcotics and rock thinks it's where they stuffed all the additives. It's where they stuffed all the toxins for that for the wine- and you often see the initiates of diagnosis carrying these and you often see them over the head of the initiate. They didn't go anywhere without their their sale ones, and this one. What was the top of it made out of like like bundled leaves,
it was a hollow stock with bundled leaves and in their rough believes, that they would put their stash wow. So their whole thing was just adding things to outlaw adding things to wine added things to beer It's in fact it was it was. It would be abnormal not to add something to So wine is routinely described in the ancient Greek is unusually intoxicating seriously mind altering occasion. Hallucinogenic and potentially lethal? And for that reason one of the words used to describe for like a thousand years from homer to the fall of the Roma, empire was Fatima on which is drug pharmacy. That's the word. They used ritually formulaic ally to describe wine because it was routinely spiked with toxins and herbs and plants. Now was this just when they were having these rituals. But
They were eating, they would just drink wine normally right. There was every day table wine like we have today, but it was more. You know they wouldn't take two pillars. With a glass of water. They would dissolve their medicine into wine. Wine is described by Pat Mcgovern that you pen, for example, as the universal palliative, that that that's how you would self administer medicine It's why discourteous! When I mentioned in the material Medica from the first century, a d: it's why he has all these recipes, a lot of them are just medicinal. All them resulted in these fantastic visions. When you talk about your sworn genitals, it's because he was trying to offer a recipe for that, and that goes back hundreds and hundreds of years into the greek tradition. But the interesting part of Is that if you go all the way back to homer eighth seventh century BC, you do find this other kind of wine being mixed wine for a ritualistic purpose like Sears, the famous which the the daughter Hekate, who
found in Spain so Sir is routinely again, mixing home calls it Fatima Luga evil drugs into the wine, you could also mixed healing drugs into the wine, but there were, there is essentially a whole pharmacopoeia available to them. While, but thank God, you wrote book man there's more j, keep going, is more there's more pj? Okay. So when what we're not just looking, okay, so for for a long long time, it's been the literature it's been. No, Pottery and pottery been statuary been statuary like because I was I was entered, the whole point, I wrote this book is again to apply twenty first century signs to it so in my conversations with Pat Mcgovern and Andrew co at MIT. I started find the initial clues for
wine that was actually spiked- okay, not just in the abstract, so Jamie. If you open this up real quick. To graveyard wine, which is how I refer to it. So look at graveyard. Wine go to number scorpion wine right there. So I was looking for evidence of wine actually being spiked in antiquity. This comes from Egypt. This is at a by dos thirty one, fifty BC, it's so old. Its pre, its pre dynastic- this is scorpion. First, they found seven hundred wine jars that were subjected to chemical analysis. Pet Mcgovern did the testing and they found it to be spiked with savory wormwood, blue Tansy bomb, senna, Coriander, Germander, Mint sage and time, woe
And you can find that he published that in two thousand nine, I believe, ancient egyptian herbal wines and wormwood is some type of psychic dog. I thought is it's not it's. Not it is artemesia. Absinthe film is, is psychoactive? Mcgovern thinks this is Sabari, which is slightly different species. But when you look at it from from afar, there's something more than just table wine. There, the these were intentionally making the wine for a reason and deposit it as grave goods. For a reason the reason would seem to be for ushering the pre Pharaoh into the afterlife. They were there with him to aid the journey and we're not going to talk about the underworld journey in Egypt with Graham Hancock, without asking Graham Hancock thinks about ancient egyptian funeral practice.
Well, there there's no doubt that the the ancient Egyptians were very focused on death, not in a negative way. they saw this life. Is our opportunity to prepare for the adventure and the challenge of death that we had what every year we got seventy in Nigeria, the over many years- we got that was opportunity to prepare for that. Great challenge of the journey that follows that follows death and there's no doubt in my mind that the ancient Egyptians did make use of of psychedelic substances. They, the blue water, Lily from ancient being being an example, jars of that again
diluted in wine, were found in the tomb of Totin Carmon. This is a psychedelic brew and when you look at ancient egyptian art the the entities which are very often part animal part, human inform and which are teachers of mankind? You find yourself again in that same Rome that people using psychedelics today find themselves in DMT in particular, encountering entities that speak to us that teach us and that often take the form of part animal part. Human, very, an throes. It's so interesting to see the actual evidence of this use and do Egyptologists dismiss this. Do they embrace this
something that is not controversial. I Egypt Egyptologist, will say that the ancient Egyptians, when you radically focused on death, I would say I would say the opposite. I would say they had a very balanced approach to death. I mean one thing clear it we're all gonna die this, not nobody. Nobody doubts that sooner or later that moment in our life is going to come where life ends. To me. That is an incredibly important moment in the ancient Egyptians by devoting their culture to figuring out how we live best in order. To cross that bridge the transit into that other realm. Where we're being very practical and very profound in their inquiries. It wasn't that they were afraid of death. They wanted two ready themselves for the journey. It follows that and they made it and they made it very clear that everything we do in this life everything counts. Nothing is Sir separated away
There's nothing that we can deny is complete in in the afterlife- nothing, nothing can be, nothing can be hidden, confronted confronted with absolute truth and in a way, psychedelic a preparation. Preparation for that because also also confront us. Absolute truth and that's why psychedelic can often be very uncomfortable because we see the truth about ourselves, but we ve been given the opportunity to change ourselves for the better and to be more nurturing and more positive and more useful people, and, as a result, the ancient Egyptians would say to her to confront a better death was getting at was what is their reaction to the psychedelic ally spiked one, because I know you particular Egypt. I just don't want anything to do with psychedelics. They don't want anything to do with psychedelics. They would prefer to Not too not,
go there and just as there are many other aspects of ancient egyptian culture that they each told just don't want to go into. It often seems to me that there are in the process of trying to carve or shape ancient Egypt to fit into modern ideology, and that's a great pity. Well, it's also a great pity that mean partition. With your work and the work that you've done with Dr Robert Shock, I describe in some indications on some of the ancient structures that there was The erosion that was due to rainfall, thousands of a rainfall which would have predated the conventional De of when these things are constructed. The way that they resisted that instead of looking at it like this fascinating new evidence that will eliminate this field. Then now we have some new perspective on this. They rejected it so horrifically, and it was so They were mocking. I remember that who who's that that one, Egypt
just that openly marked the the concept of it. But not just one may go out about there's a film in the that. There was the document feather. Maybe yes, the Charlton Heston narrated, the documentary Yes, I think you may be speaking about can fee, but really I could. I could cite a dozen Egyptologists who to feel this way. The notion that the great sphinx twelve and a half thousand years old, which is a notion based on the erosion patents on the body of the sphinx, is utterly unacceptable. To egyptologist? They just don't want to go there. They don't want to consider that possibility. because they feel that they ve got ancient egyptian history taped
that it begins about five thousand years ago, there's a bit of a precursor in the pre dynastic period, a thousand or so years, building up to ancient Egypt, and then you have ancient egyptian civilization and gradually it merges with the Greeks and with other cultures and spreads out around the world. The notion that there is a background to ancient egyptian civilization that goes back into the ice age is a notion that no egyptologist is prepared to accept, The moment. They start accepting that notion. They cease to be Egyptologists in view of their colleagues is a very dangerous idea to to contemplate and that that's why I spent the last quarter of a century trying to argue the case for a last civilization that, sir, you know. Maybe I'm not write about everything, but we shouldn't neglect the hints and the clues whether it comes from astronomy, weather it comes from geometry: whether it comes from geology whether it comes from the statements of the ancient Egyptians themselves
their origins in their past, we shouldn't be ignoring this. We should consider it an and your right, rather than rather than reacting with fury to the notion of a much more ancient sphinx, it would have been nice to have seen the EU, the logical profession Ray with interest to it and begin to explore it and consider what it might mean, because the geology is irrefutable, but largely ignored the the erosion, was it on the body of the pink or was it on the walls of the Temple where the sphinx was carved out a well where you can see it today is so. The sphinx is carved out of solid bedrock. It's carved out of the bedrock of the Giza Plateau and in order to do that, an enormous trench was created around the body of the sinks and, in fact, de the blocks that were excavated from that trench, were then moved over and used to build what I called the Bali Temple and the Sphinx Temple where in some cases you find blocks of limestone. That way, two two hundred tonnes,
and what has happened since then, is that the body of the sphinx has been subjected to multiple restorations in one of the arguments that egyptologist just ignore is that all the in the old kingdom, the time when the sphinx is supposed to have been made according to conventional Egyptology de in the old kingdom, they were restoring it and there are restoration blocks on the body of the sphinx, the date back, four and a half thousand years, and that process of of restoring and renovating the sphinx has gone on down the ages still still happening today? The of of the as as we see them today covered in entirely with modern restoration blocks. We don't see the bedrock underneath it, but where we do see the origin bedrock is in the walls of that trench that was carved out to create the body of the sphinx in the first place, because no one he's been restoring those and its in those that you see this characteristic? Undulating pattern speaks of exposure to Us
very long period of heavy heavy rainfall and the law last time you have that heavy rainfall in Egypt is the period The geologist call the younger dry ass, roughly tween, twelve thousand eight hundred and eleven thousand six hundred years ago, so the body of the Sphinx trench out of which it is carved is saying I am too a thousand years old and the only argument against that really is the head of the sphinx being the typical head of an ancient egyptian Pharaoh with the names headdress. But of course, of the sphinx was originally a lion justice, The body of the sphinx is a lion, and the head of the sphinx was re in dynastic times to give this human form. The reaction to that notion, and this heart geological data that Robert Shock provided was just the most of us. Let's pay tribute to John Anthony West. Yes, because it was John Anthony West, who originally had that brilliant insight that the
What we're looking at sir on them in the case of the sphinx, is water, whether again in- and he rightly pays tribute to just wanted to Lubeck said earlier scholar. It was the first. to notice this and John then brought Robert Shop to Egypt as a Professional geologist Robert is professor of geology at the at the university Boston, and I brought him there and Robert Shock indeed concluded that we are looking at what a weathering on the body of the sphinx and gradually Rebecca, initially was very cautious. It was saying what the sphinx must be: seven or eight thousand years old, but- Much more recently he's also settled on the date of roughly twelve thousand years old as last time that you would get that sort of heavy rainfall in Egypt and could have created them. Characteristic weathering, and I would incur Anybody anybody's interested in this to please check out John Anthony Wes Magical Egypt, serious cause. It's amazing, it's it's yet my promising at fifteen times I'm so glad that you had that you had John on your show.
Because you did also. I know it's very rare, that you do things by Skype and you get in person as well. I had him twice. I had him on in person and before he died, and I had him on Skype before that. What an amazing man he was such a radical, such an incendiary. You know. Planting. Planting in intellectual bombs in in the accepted wisdom of the modern world and making us all think So I think when it comes to the age of the sphinx, it's really important to realize the role that John up it was played, and I'm I'm so glad that you had him on your show you I am his wife and he was your idea. Friend of mine, and I was I was. I was with them just a month before his before his death and he went into that journey of death within Europe his courage and abbot? certainty. Now what and these vessels were tested and these psychedelic compounds were detected. What was the reaction was was their resist?
since this house it received, we don't think they're properly psychedelic Judge just yet means all the ingredients that that psychoactive psychoactive medicinal for four for sure it get some wasn't much backlash said that I know of after after Mcgovern Study was a gold standard study and then it continued by the way. So for those seven hundred jars at a bite us after further. Now, stay, they determined that the plans- and Herbs actually originated in the holy land in the southern Levin, weren't native to Egypt. They had been brought there or they were ship there by the folks in the holy land, which gets more interesting because the next big fine was the world's oldest wine cellar, which was published on twenty fourteen came from Tell comedy which is also in Galilee member? This is, the same Galilee that Jesus comes on the scene and Christianity bursts across the planet. So it telecom in twenty fourteen. They found another a staff, A wine dubbed the world's oldest wine cellar, also subject
archeo chemical analysis, and what Andrew CO in the tea their found. Was wine spiked with honey store acts, turbans, Cyprus, cedar, juniper, mint, Myrtle and cinnamon, or at least sentimental died, hang another very strange Mick. Doesn't sound very psychedelic, though no no, not at all, so they just they were into spiking wine. They just. They love spike one, but when Andrew CO says about is interesting, though, and that's that's why I reach out to him originally because he says that spiking wine with this. Many ingredients is indicative of a very sophisticated understanding of the botanical landscape, and he says he says quote: it demonstrates the form copy skills necessary to balance preservation. Palatability answer GO activity uses that word: preservation like in the terrible, for example, in a resonating, the wine so doesn't spoilt to vinegar possibility
If there is cinnamon or honey that you mentioned for two. It would improve the flavor profile, but then cycle activity. Who knows we don't know which juniper was, but there is juniper used in other sites. Go active ceremonies, there's a species of Juniper Juniperus record of which occurs in near the Himalia actually and there's I've I've seen videos really cool videos. If you want to pull it up Jamie, you can look up, If you, Google, anybody can do this. Gb showman. If you look up GB base showman you'll, see ritual of when inhaling the juniper. The insight from juniper and going Inter trance well did much is written about wine and the additives and all the different things they put to one of its washed. His first there's there.
There's not much written about it. You might have to two to skip for, but this is them essentially preparing. What would we So that's that's. That's a bit tat what they call the potato, the Baton, YO, r, the traditional healer profits and and shamans of this to I've been the Hindu Kush and what they do is. They inhale the incense from burning. Juniper and then suck the blood from a goat head will help achieve it says things people get up to. Happens when you out lost psychedelics people, try anything its mushrooms sucker go ahead and There is the Junta people, and it says it puts him into a trance whereby he's able to communicate with the fairies manufacturers to go by skies?
been annoying. Look it up he just wants put on a robot. He kind of look, so your guy would do that and theirs there's settlers girl had Lisco example, boy, a boy and what is their right, explain our egos. Second on the go ahead of the skies annoying only those dancing Putting on show everybody's, like he's like look at me, I'm sucking godhead, I'm so crazy. I bet the godhead doesn't really do anything. I bet the godhead is just so. He gets extra attention. Look at the kids like wow, this guy's crazy, look at them. A little bit of bore out in there too wow. Okay, now it is usually more than one person, this is what does this one guy is trip and balls and then he collapses, and then everybody else is just going up. It's Marty Look at Marty
crazy, rids his hands off and is this something that other people? This is what some weird about this video it seems like one person is having a psychedelic ritual and the rest of whom are just watching this here The spiritual technician, the way you find in other traditional societies, he was the one who train tonight. Gate that that other world and learn the fairy language, apparently fairyland, the fairy language yeah. It is where those ferries and elves- and always different things- exist in so many different cultures, and they are what you do see if you do take enough psychedelic, so the right kind, the right setting, Is that true? It is true, I take on this when, when I wrote supernatural is the way we in a way, we have three supposedly different. Domains of experience. We have the spirits. Who shamans encounter
in altered states of consciousness, we have fairies and elves from the middle ages. Very often in illustrations, you'll see that the mushroom mushrooms are present in the illustrations. Then today we have aliens and at the level of phenomena the there are extremely close similarities between the entities that we call aliens today. Entities that were called fairies or elves in the middle ages and the entities that shamans referred to as spirits, and I would say actually what We're dealing with is the same experience in all three cases, but the through different cultural lenses and construed in in different ways, and the only thing that really explains these kind of experiences where any one of us can actually share that experience and have that experience is psychedelics, powerful psychedelics, like DMT,
plunges into that realm of experience, and we will meet entities and many people do they do construe those entities as aliens, because that's how our culture is dealing with the other today. Have you Our experience and I think that looked like what the classic iconic alien is yeah. I have you have a real absolutely in one of my in one of my early I ask experiences in the in the Amazon. I saw eyes flying my eyes were closed flying I saw flying saucers and then I saw this classic sort of. gray with that high forehead and narrow, pointed Chin, and these really grim eyes. Looking looking down on me, I think I may have mentioned this on your show before, but what I, what I really regret doing, I felt I was going to be taken I felt was going to be abducted and I open my eyes and I shouted no.
They were horse? I should have kept my closed and said yes, take me, but I didn't do that, and I've never encountered them in that quite alien form. A game. I'm It is about that, but we have to. We have to consider the possibility that these are not simply concoctions of our brains, that The brain is a much more complicated mechanism. We think it is and that certain circumstances when brain chemistry is altered in the right way we gain access to other levels of reality that are known closed off to our senses. That is personally my view that what's happening with academics. I can't prove that that's the case, but the sea is that we are entering a seamlessly convincing parallel world, that it is inhabited by intelligent beings and that they have things to say to us, first this is universal people have with psychedelic all around the world have had those experiences
and secondly I just don't see this- I don't see why we've all got a brain brain module for this Think We are actually peering through the doorway into another level of reality, but it's gonna take a whole lot more research to prove that that's just my own personal opinion personal opinion mirrors yours. My feelings have always been when I do psychedelics that have tuned into a frequency, that's unavailable to me during regular states of consciousness. It doesn't seem like a hallucination. It seems like I entered into a doorway, and I'm in new place. And there's an urgency to it, because I know that I am not going to be lost They have a very long and they seem to know that and they to be they. They seem to communicate with you in a very urgent way. I'm one of the things that I have talked about. I've talked about this experience before one of the most profound ones. I met gestures, who are giving me the finger. They seem to be explaining to me that I take myself too seriously. It felt like
And then when I went. Oh okay, they went yes yeah, you got it, you got it. I was like oh yeah, you're right. It was a feeling like, oh yeah, okay, you think if you say so too highly I have my doubts whether said that the subtitle of my my book supernatural back in two thousand and six was meetings with the ancient teachers of mankind, and I think that's what's going on here. I think that the psychedelic allow us to enter a realm where we encountered teachers who can help us to be better people and perhaps to be a better civilization, while that was one of the more interesting things about. I believe it was university of Jerusalem there there take on What Moses in the burning Bush was that very likely. The burning bush was the occasion tree, which is very rich in domestic trip to me: the empty yeah, and that this was imminent, when you
That way, like oh, of course, Moses. The burning bush was, God talk talking to him and you think about the translation between Ancient Hebrew and then to Latin and greek, and all and in the English, eventually like course there's going to be a lot lost in the translation. But if you just looked at it that way, So that's a psychedelic drug, of course, done that always view. Do you kind of do meet something? That's describe God and it's very mural yeah I
you may do you meet in what other state of consciousness do meet intelligent plants that communicate with you right now that data that it's very hard to imagine any other state of consciousness. Apart from the psychedelic state, on what your citing is the work of the convention on who is a professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and he has drunk I Oscar himself at least seven hundred times I mean he's, got nowadays. Satellite than I've met him anymore, he's a real say: Israelis, exactly any any dollar who goes into this area and really does it properly. They His scepticism being shoved off to the side by his or her colleagues. It takes courage to do this work, but what we need is more scientists doing this work. Getting up Their courage and getting on with it, because we need to learn about this aspect of ourselves. We we just got such an incomplete picture, the the moment not
all falls into place. If you look at it and under that description, and I'm glad he has the courage to step up and actually put this description out there, member someone sent it to me in an email- and I haha like there- it is course- and it an email book is called Iowaska the activities of the mind it's The important, really important piece of work, but not widely enough read in my view, is there a culture, version of Alaska where, where there is an inhibitor inhibitor and a plant with trip to me outside of the Amazon, is there an equivalent
well sure that was that was also part of banishing on sir arguments in the inn in an age of Israel. That said that you have them. You have mimosa, certainly motors which sham, which contain the that the M T, and then you have firm Hamelin in NAM in in other plants that contain them runaway mean oxidize inhibitors. So you can have these. What I was gonna analogues which which are doing essentially the same the same thing: I've consumed, I was gonna analogues myself in there. Very like I was good, but not quite there is There is, there is a difference again. I'm gonna sound, very mystical in kind of woo here, but there is a spirit in Iowaska it's a female it is a goddess and I have not encountered her with the analogs. Only with was from the Amazon and what have the analogs been like. The experience is still psychedelic.
Yes very much so the visions, the encounters, the encounters with entities, the amazing geometric patterns and the self reflection what the fuck am. I been doing with my life up till now, but it though I did I backed up estate. Why did I heard that present in that way, but that that but see feeling of a direct income? encounter whither. I call her a goddess I mean sometimes she appears in and I can hear my critics out their laughing at me now. Hancock got has completely lost it, but sometimes she appears to be at in the form of a human woman, sometimes in the form of a of a serpent, and then you know we get into the whole issue of the garden of Eden and the story of the garden of Eden and the role that the serpent plays in that story and the role that the serpent plays in that story is pointing out to Adam and Eve that God has basically lied to them. And he offers them. He offers Adam and Eve. The forbidden fruit, Alex Gray, my friend, the visionary artist, Alex Gray, calls it the first psychedelic slap down
The garden of Eden Is- is so, as you know they that there are these intriguing experiences that are at least with these with these substances. But, to my mind there is something very special about. I was it's living ancient technology. You can trace it back thousands of years in the Amazon and its coming out of the Amazon and finding its way around the world and that ancient free That shows Adam and Eve standing by mushrooms is very bizarre as well right. Absolutely I again this our psychedelic heritage has been hidden from us and them why I value Brian spoke the immortality key so much because it's done the solid scientific groundwork to begin to give academic scientists permission to investigate this?
field and that's what we need. We need much more work done in this field than has been done already hoof man. How good does it feel to have put this down to paper and just said do or do you feel like now that it's out there? You have a lot of explaining to do. I think there's lots of explaining to do It's funny, though one and we haven't gotten into the too much of the christian material yet, but I went through the Vatican quite a bit when, when I was writing this with different departments at the Vatican, the Vatican, secret archives and the archive of the congregation for the dutch the faith and the Vatican, museums and all the catacombs in Rome and I through their spelunkers with Father Francis. To be totally honest, the Vatican. Been nicer or more accommodating to me, And while some of this is controversial, they ve been very supportive. To date. I say that as someone who went to thirteen years of Catholic School
including four years with the Jesuits. They always encouraged me to ask questions about the origins of the faith and there's lots and lots of questions there. There's, a reason that today you can look around and find thirtyth thousand denominations of Christianity. I think that was the case. The very beginning. There was never one monolithic form of the faith and people didn't go the bed in thirty three, a d as Pagans and wake up and thirty four eighty as Christians. It was a process and intercultural process that took hundreds of years, which I call Paleo Christianity, which I think for anyone interested in the faith, is kind of the most interesting. part these at the earliest and most authentic Christians, They were living in a world where the blood of goats- and This spiked wine was the norm and, as a matter of fact, DR Luther King Jr wrote about this of all people yeah. This is called the pagan continuity hypothesis. The idea that Christianity wasn't born in a vacuum and nineteen fifty doktor King wrote a paper called the influence of the myth,
three religions on Christianity, you can you, can google it and you can google it and you can read it this way, This was not controversial, woo woo stuff, at least in nineteen. Fifty. When I went to the Vatican, I was really fortunate. We hired a professional guide. He was a professor there there. It is the influence of the mystery Religions and Christianity Doctor Martin Luther King, impressive. It's amazing I we are really. Fortunately, this amazing guide and we were in the middle of this war, an area of the Vatican, and there was a giant pine cone the coil Elaine, and so he brought it up like what do you think that stands for, and I said probably the pineal gland and his eyes lit up, and we had this conversation and then we started talking about drugs. You know too much Joe Rogan, and so he just loved the fact that I knew that and then I was into this and then we had a fantastic time, but There's a lot of
mushroom, imagery and iconic mushroom shapes and, and this connect in between mushrooms and Christianity, you could find their theirs a lot of one of them, weirder ones when Jack hair was alive, he was work Jack. Here was a guy who was a Goldwater Republican and became a cannabis advocate when he he got divorced and made met a girlfriend, and It's our part was for losers, but I just want to get high with school girl and smoke. Little part is where has this been all my life holy shit and then he became a cannabis advocate, and I was very fortunate to meet him before he died and he was showing me some stuff that he was working on, but one of the things that he was working on after he wrote that book. The emperor wears no clothes but Then he wrote it was writing a book about mushrooms and Christianity, and there is these ancient images of these naked people. Dead
sing in ecstasy and they were surrounded by this translucent mushroom image. It was really fascinating and there is a lot of these images. images that were the shape of doors that were carved out in the form of a mushroom and that this it only makes sense if you know what psychedelic mushrooms do when you take them. You have these incredible experiences and the dear that a religion would emerge out of these experiences is not the unusual at all especially if it was common. In ancient Greece that that's that's. Why try to focus on that that continuity from the ancient Greeks to the Chris Because again, these are the same people. The earliest Christians were all Greek speaking when, when Paul his writing his letters, which is the majority of the new testament the twenty one of the twenty seven books of the new testament he's writing, in Greek to greek people, writing to the Corinthians who speak Greek, the Thessalonians Tesla Niki now the second largest city in Greek in Greece, the Philippians
And then in modern day Turkey to the Ephesians and Colossians and Galatians you know sherry is born in Galilee or at least grows up in Galilee, but it doesn't take root there. It goes. It goes to the greek speakers and it goes across all the Greek influenced areas, including Macgregor, which has greatly Greece, which is southern ITALY, which happens to be the same They were the Catholic church put down its roots two thousand years ago, there. There are the reason for that was because the early church was all Greek and these were people who were steeped in the traditions of their ancestor I mean imagine, abandoning the religion of your grandparents for this new wine God from one day to the next. It doesn't doesn't make that much sense, and so, the thesis of the book is that the eucharist for some communities at some point in time at some area in this Greek speaking, part of the world would have availed themselves of the kind of sacraments that available to the Greeks for generations and generations, and so forth
Looking for the smoking gun of that that ancient greek spike it's not there. We talked about the Abydos wine in Egypt, the herbal wine from tell cavity in Galilee We ve been looking in Greece and Turkey in ITALY and elsewhere, for that you know Greek, spiked wine and, having quite found it Yet. But Andrew CO is very interested in continuing to test and fine we're things, but in the meantime we did find spiked wine, so you have evidence spike. Why now it's is finding it in Greece. I think we weren't you I find it in Greece to tie to dine ISIS. You want to find it in ITALY to tie it to the Christians, because that's really the area where were the two again puts down roots and begins to grow up in that period of Paleo, Christianity? And so just like? I was looking for that organized beer. I was looking for evidence of where you could properly call it psychedelic Line may have pops up, and there is one article in one October, Journal from twenty years ago that talks about spike wine, which was
which was news to me too, because every single time I got the Pat Mcgovern's and Andrew Codes and all the top Archeo buttons in Europe. The answer you get back just like the answer to the question: where is the spiked beer? The answer Is there isn't any and its another case of this evidence just either being Nord or under reported. But there was young, at the time Archaeobotany, botanist Marina, who is from Naples and get her Phd archaeology in the UK and on site in palm pay, testing, these vessels. We have a lot of evidence from Pompey by the way. A lot of what we know about the ancient world comes from pumps, herculaneum because of Mount Vesuvius and seven nine, a d it explodes and destroys everything, but it also preserves everything under like seventeen feat of volcanic ash. We have all these clues about the dionysian, miss Greece and, in addition to that, there was this farmhouse and sky forty just to the EAST of palm.
Where there were seven Dalia, which is like a giant storage vessel and these Dalia are found in TEL Aviv. Nada, like a wine cellar in a farm that also came complete with a Torica Latium like a wine press and a threshing floor, so something about wine was happening in this place. We don't know but the sample was extraordinarily well preserved, Marina one in their it? Wasn't it Michael analysis. That's always he more more more fine, more finally great at the sample was in such good shape because it had been waterlogged. So the the baton, samples were in pristine condition and she could tell by the seeds and stems another plant material. What was there and there were over fifty species? plants and herbs and trees. In this this one sample, which is really weird even more than we found a abide, also tell cave. It was like just a Malone of plant material that shouldn't be there
and what she found in addition to many other medicinal plants was opium, cannabis, henbane and black nightshade. What is and being henbane is the is here he assumes its. This guy sky mean is one of those tropane alkaloids than that night shade plant that very which, She kind of plan that we found in the Katanas in Spain was beer we spoke with henbane, so finding wine spike potentially with henbane we find for seeds. At least there were two seeds of opium nine seeds of cannabis forces of henbane. Then too seeds of this black nightshade and in the article that describes as she Marina herself, the Archeo botanist says, some kind of spiced wine actually calls it myth a now to understand. now there was this guy methodologies methodologies. The sixth was the ruler of the Pontus region and between the black and Caspian, sees his father was poison to death and so to prevent that he would micro dose his whole
He was poisoning himself day in and day out, and so this portion of many different toxic herbs and plants becomes eventually and the Roma. Empire, as a daul tomb, aftermath rigidities. Now, when the rule finally get to him and try and kill him. He tries to poison himself and it doesn't work because he's immune, so one of his soldiers has to stab him to death so he's micro, dosing himself in preparation for someone else poisoning exactly what they want it tries to commit. Suicide is unable to exactly oh, my god, how strange and so outside upon pay was there. Any other evidence. And how would you go about finding it like we're like say if you want to go a search where, where would you look? That's I mean it opens up a whole world of possibilities. Now that people may I wrote this This kind of I call them the initial archeo botanical blips on the radar so between this ergot ties beer and this pattern.
They psychedelic wine is lots of different places to look if you're try two to prove this- this psychedelic hypothesis within paleo Christianity. You're looking for a place where the dynamic mysteries bumped up against the christian Mysteries and that's all over the place. So back in Galilee, for example, diners there's, there's a whole myth around Dionysus and his birth and different authors places birth in different places. One of the places they place his birth is a city called ski felt. Police Skite police was like the capital of the decay police police. This ten city of the Eastern Mediterranean from Nazareth, Tusky thought police today is forty minutes door to Door Nazareth where Jesus grows up So ski thoughtless has this northern cemetery, where you do fine artifacts that relate both to the pagan dying
mysteries and some christian artifacts, so a place like that would be ripe for further investigation or an emphasis. You have like the grotto of the seven sleepers another place where the pagan mysteries bumped up against the christian mysteries The best places is wrong and the cat and the catacombs, which is why spent so much time going through the catacombs. Looking for evidence of these, essentially funeral rituals, where people were celebrating with the dead using this sacramental wine in the very earliest versions of the mass, and is there any scripture unease, any texts that are too describing what they were doing when they were going through these rituals, his funeral rituals. I mean there There there's a few things we have so the fury for the Christians. It's called the referee, Jerry him, referee, Jerry him and Latin means like a chill out and there's that there, A very respectable scholar, Ramsay Mc Molin, he's considered one of the premier authorities of ancient roman world. He describes
jerry him as a place where the dead themselves participate and its, where that- The dead basically come back to life, in the roman world. You would all you would never leave the dead alone. Think I think of it like come like a future. Ritual in Mexico, for example, when the family goes to visit the graves of the ancestors, there was a very soon or principle in the roman world that carried over into Christianity. And so we know the referee Jerry him existed. The big question, if the wine drunk at the referee, Jerry him with similar to the wine of the early christian eucharist, and when you look for these catacombs you find really crazy stuff to suggest that, in fact, the two could the ticket coexist. Well here we go these images now that the looks out the books done. You're you're thing now is obviously promoting this and getting the word out but d, Haven't your mind of following up on this research now that the doors, oh
and now the people are aware this. It seems like you. First of all, I believe you're gonna get help people to be interested in continuing this research and and contributing to this research. Where do you go from here? I want to do the case my life to this for the next ten years, real. Yes, why so? Pga feel better, I think, not inferior to that no collisions something really We need to take you down to the Amazon Ryan and you need to have an encounter with mother. I ask where you just gotta Santa Cruz you could just one of these aspects. A summit about that rain forest, oh yeah, I'm sure it really is. It really is a special setting for this serve for this explains, but I think it would be interesting Brian having having written this answer as a scientific and an academic research exercise to
to then go on to see what your personal experiences and how that resonate with what you ve learned as it as a scientific investigating yeah, I mean even you wanted to do it in a clinical setting Lang Rick's? Draftsman did when he had these FDA approved studies for the empty spirit. Molecule. Just anything is anything where you can tap into that world, because I guarantee, you're gonna come back eyes wide, like those ladys in that drawing. Oh, ok, it's it's fast to me when you talk to someone who is a psychedelic virgin U, I almost feel jealous animals, like no. Do you feel the same way room absolutely would be. It would be nice to. It would be nice to know that that experience lay ahead of us and we haven't and we haven't had it yet, but but you eat, you know at the same time, You can learn to work with these substances. They can be overwhelming at first and with with
more careful, use of these substances. You begin to manage them better, not always, but usually so when you say you want to do this and dedicate your life for the next ten years are you'd, do more, What books in mind do you have with what is your thoughts, so? With this I mean my my dream is TAT is to say this on the screen. I think that there is so many visual elements here. I think that what subjects ass ours are sorry, so I think that the best way that I mean my dream is to see this on the screen. So I ve been talking to a couple of development teams, couple production, companies, one is anonymous. Content and allay, and sixpence media in New York together were developing A documentary series that adapt This everything we ve talked about for like a first season, but there's really Malta seasons here, because there's so much evidence? That's never been looked at, and so it's taking the very bad as to the Archeo chemistry and the very best, the on in the future?
archaeology, combining all the linguistic evidence and this biology and iconography and putting it together to find once and for all the smoking gun for the use of psychedelic eucharist in antiquity. So are you? Do you have Place, you bringing this or we are just about to pitch this as a matter of fact, Netflix at listen! I would watch at all day long, I'm really excited, mill excited about the whole thing. The whole prospect of it- and I think that its I'm just so happy be that you became obsessed with it and they ignored all. people telling you to not me to man and minutes, that's been it's been a long road. I never never thought about. Psychedelic and I read a supernatural alot of weird stuff, Was happening in my life and thousand and seven two thousand eight After I read those initial studies that came out of Hopkins and Nyu. Of course, I wanted to try silos Ivan
and then the mystery just got deeper and deeper, and I realise there is there is story to be told here that hadn't been told before, and I think it needed a serious and and sober look at this stuff. So I really did spend knights and weakens doing nothing else, but this kind of stuff and reading hundreds of books and thousands of journal articles and twelve years of googling to try and put all the pieces together, and I will say that you know it covers a lot of ground, but you don't need to know anything history or archaeology, let alone Archeo Botany argue chemistry or psychopharmacology, or biblical studies or paleoanthropology, to appreciate this appreciate? I kind of take it one step at a time, from the very beginning and show you every piece of evidence that I mean as a virgin did convince me This is at least worth a sober look from the scientific community. Well, I hope to think
next time. I talked to you- were promoting this television show, and you can tell me about your psychedelic experience that you had with. Graham did I agree to this? Yes, you agree to it. You are you signed up a gram, the hope. Hopefully, next time we communicate, I will actually be in the flesh when somebody works out. This covid nonsense hub I hope so can I can. I just mentioned will not talk about my book, but this is the hard back of America before which we wish we talked about this Last time I was on your shovel, America before has been in hard back for the past eighteen months, but it's coming out in paper back twenty five, twenty ninth of September, twenty twenty Adam at a much reduced price, and I hope that people have not been able to access the hard by will be able to have a look at it in the air in in in the paper bag. I mean we have. We had an amazing conversation
this time I was on your show and before that we had the drama with Michael Shermer Randal Carson, was present at that time If I came in, I telephoned I want to pay tribute to Michael Shermer you may have noticed this joe- that that that Michael put out a tweet saying that we're gonna have to reconsider his essentially I'm I'm paraphrasing. It was gonna have to reconsider his prior attitude to my work in the light of new evidence about the younger dress impact catastrophe that, in my view, twelve thousand years ago, or so does a whole civilization It takes a lot to admit that that one may have been wrong and I'm I'm I'm glad that Michael had the had urge to put that tweet out there. The I am as well kudos to him and kudos to you and ran across in as well, because those conversations that we had about that are absolutely someone my favorite conversation.
Of all time. Those were the it's it's it's obviously something happened in and in all the pieces must like in this conversation about spiked wine and drugs, and it all makes sense it all fits into play. And that we are a species with amnesia and that we need to. We need to rediscover our past and as a curious residence, with the way that things are in the in the modern world. Just as I have come to me, trust history, to mistrust the history that is taught to us in schools and universities No longer to accept at face value, the opinions of so called experts. In the field. So in the modern world today many people are learning to mistrust. Institutions that have long gone unquestioned, weather government or whether it's science people are beginning to for themselves and I think, there's an intriguing residents between Rick covering our lost past and
regaining sovereignty over ourselves in a modern world that is struggling very hard to turn us all in, children and rest all responsibility in government. A huge mistake governments are they The service they are not there to rulers, they are not there. Tell us what to do and I'm glad People are waking up to this here here. That's an excellent way to end this. Thank you. Graham. I love you. I appreciate you very much. I wish you were here with you and give you a big hug and thanked, I get it back thanks. Oh thank you. Thank you guys and thank your buddy listening goodbye. Thank you friend. Returning to the show and thank you to simply say, simply safe in their awesome security can be got by you for just fifteen bucks among Us News News World Report named it the best overall home security of two twenty and twenty head to simply save com Rogan and get a free hd camera for the listeners of this podcast. That's simply safe dot com
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Rogan GO there and upgrade your I'm game today. That's Rev town dot com, Slash Rogan telling you they are literally the I hate when people say literally but there's the fucking best jeans on earth and thank you also to whoop the best fitness tracker I've ever used in my life, I, where every single day I'd love all the information that it gives me. It helps make healthy choices and it is piecemeal, accountable and Listeners this park, ass, we're gonna, get the by whoop whoop is, is gonna offer you, fifteen percent offer the code Rogan check out, go to woo, that's W h, Opie dot com and enter the code. Rogan a check out to sea fifteen percent get to know yourself on a deeper level unlock yourself with whoop right. We did it. Thank you up. How interesting was that shit right? I told you that was a fascinating conversation. I am so into this
I love it. I love the fact that he was obsessed and I love the fact that his wife PJ did not want to doing it and he kept doing it and looked looky there. He was right haha. So thank you. I'm taking a gram amazing conversation, I think, we'd all much lab.
Transcript generated on 2020-10-13.