« The Joe Rogan Experience

#1545 - W. Keith Campbell

2020-10-06 | 🔗
Social psychologist W. Keith Campbell is a recognized expert on narcissism and its influence on society at large. His latest book, The New Science of Narcissism, explores the origins of this character trait, why its presence has grown to almost epidemic proportions, and how all of us are at least a little narcissistic.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hello, friends, welcome to the show it is October, so that means it's sober October. I was on the fence. I wasn't sure whether or not I was gonna do sober October Thomson, Nuremberg pressure and our severe or not in, but I mean I have to be it David. Organs force my hand so fuck it and plus, I know, there's a lot of people who are looking forward to it. They like getting sober for them. As a challenge doing it along with us, and I know from indicating with a lot of people that has helped them actually get off alcohol and cleaner life up. So I feel obligated so I'm in sober October were all month: thirty, one d, is no alcohol and help me stay on track. I'm teaming up again with whoop whew is a twenty four seven personalize fitness tracker and its one that's, not the only wearable that quantifies if you're getting enough sleep if you recovered how much strain you're putting on your body and how? Well
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The job will gain experience, Loki Joe Compliments thank for common. Our thanks for have made. This is great great to be in the new studio, its polarizing, some like it. Some did not it has weird effect on people wearing that I never thought of going to a big deal that stop people go out of this place, which word, and that would be the end of it- was kind of an inter dimensional hyper to body the red pill, what's the name. Some people call the red pill. I don't know it's just the studio. For now it's cool. Thank you. It feels good to be here feels good nice duty. I was going to have you. Thank you, tested job. What were you saying about testing those? Not unless you you're sick, it's not good to test
Martin Weir, I mean, is a psychologist. You know when you doing psychological testing. If I want to see if somebody is a mental disorder, I just don't go screen a bunch of people. I wait for somebody to show up in a hospital. That's got troubles right, be unified goes gives the screen to a bunch of people going to find a bunch of people. test is mentally ill, but aren't do not do anything wrong. They just have some symptoms, but they might not have all the trouble that brings them to a hospital or maybe they do, but they just now make their way to hospital. Well, there s the its work. It out forms a part of that in this case,. I mean the thing is you can be weird and it works or you can be an angry person or a mean person or self adored person whatever. If it works for you, then it's not. Disorder, you can't just go through your life if it, if its impairing it becomes a disorder, and then we treat you Bob how does one defined with a night's impair? You like? You could argue that the President United States has some cycle.
logical disorders, but clearly he it is, has an impact, him from being successful, unless you check his taxes, this is the this is a D. eight I've had were discussed I've had a lot and question is so was somebody like Donald Trump He says he has disorder and use a work. Is billionaire oppressive. United states turned pale out attacks, as guy sounds like he's, gonna kill in it to me. Now decided this order. You always and something else as well Imagine how good it be if he was have any disorders and was totally saying imagine if he was doing that it had pencil personality he'd really be killing it and suddenly says that pence does do work as he's not wire. That way you get I've trumps personality to do that kind of crazy. No, so it's it's a debate will now you know what personally penthouse simple way. has no idea. What's in there he comes across. Somebody with a very balanced
The reality is not very extroverted but pry very conscientious. You know very probably more all and upright, so you come across as somebody with rectitude. He no sewing in personnel terms. We might say, somebody's, conscientious and probably agreeable, but not really exley. bird ed COM is their debate on whether someone should be treated or even someone duped should be discussed as someone who, as mental health issues or purse now the issues even if they're doing well. like the wood. The way you're describing you're saying like will someone's success, oh they're doing well, why bother looking at these things to be treated? You need to have clinically significant pyramid to get the diagnosis. So if there's no impairment, it's really. you're not supposed to treat somebody at that point. You just coaching em what if someone is like super successful, but there, like you, know what I've been talk to lately and people savvy down and said: hey man you're
you're a narcissist, nothing wrong with you they come to see you in the end. You start talking to them: Sable, yeah, Wallace, good, stuff, gown, for you right, you would say, treat them right, yeah, so so It comes in, though what dispersants come in and is probably somebody's very successful in a lot of things and as problem probably in their relationships like they're. My my men, just screwed up my kids hate me. I must say the president was his wife. He listens. This practice is like Why why don't tremendous tremendous progress? Tremendous? I might have an issue. I would like to talk to Keith and in any decides to talk to you but you would say lay, but you are a billionaire and you're the President in office you're doing well, would you treat him? I would if, if I were its trump
I actually talked to me- and I would say where are those choke points of those pain points in your life or your ego is screwing up your desire to be the best person in the world if you eat, you want to be the most successful president in the history of the universe. Where is your ego messing you up? Is it waiting to my hunch is that you get into mean at people who, like some random criticizes, you do get hostile to quickly and look unstable, you know. Is it? Is your marriage? Ok, I don't know it seems to be ok in that department right now, but I should look at those points where its influence and negative and say: what can we do to to fix those? It's interesting described like the best person you can be or the best person in the world. If you did, that may be
be successful, like that's part of the issue, to write like it's, the challenge is that when you look at people at let's say you look at it income. If your men, who are kind of jerks, make more money, people are less agreeable, make more money than more antagonistic or one more competitive. The want to break the rules a little bit so there's this balance in life. Where is if you're, too nice of a person you don't you're, not able to break things to get ahead, but if you're gonna break in things, you become a tyrant and no one likes you and I want to take it down while this also it would by what metric or we measuring success. We measuring success only in financial success. We measure success in like happiness with your friend in your family- and you know, I got a balanced life with your loved ones, the meaning, and so when we talk about that, where you
The sea is somebody like yeah tromp or some very narcissistic, whose very achievement status focus. They're, going to succeed at those metrics status be number one. Wealth is a pretty good proxy for status, so wealth and status, where you'd typically fall apart, is, in those interpersonal rounds, you just don't, have the compassion need the care and you dont give time for people empathy, you don't go out of apathy, and so those those relate ships are usually what suffer, and so with people who are really status. Focused the thing that causes their relationships because there are pursuing famer status or whatever and that's fine. You know everybody makes those choices, the promise, if you're doing it all the time and manipulating people using people if it can be more of a problem, is there any evolutionary benefit to narcissism like where does that come from cause? Does it does exist in the animal kingdom? Yes, so if you think it
bout it from an evolutionary perspective, which some people have narcissism seems to be really good for short term mating success, if I go to a bar in downtown austin- and I give narcissism questionnaires to all the dudes there, the higher scores are going to get the most numbers overtime, that just happened so narcissism is usually good for short term Aiden and it's good for status seeking power seeking. So it's probably beneficial in those contacts, and it's in this is where it gets a little weird, because it's stable environment like and research in Hunter, gatherer societies and stable environments of somebody's. You know cheating on other people's wives or stealing stuff or steals extra food people. Don't like that. They'll just kill him. I mean I'll just go behind me and asked if you're in if you're kind of a dick in the
in the hunter gatherer society it'll will take out your this won't come back because they just don't want you bought. So narcissism gets, gets weeded out in those places, but when things get unstable and things are, you know uncertain people narcissistic can get Water resources and do really well so sometimes they do well keeps it around and obvious big societies. You can become powerful enough to hire hence men and hire a pr agent, and you can kind of build your own status and and do a lot more than you can in the Hunter Gatherer group. Where everyone knows you, what is narcissist may define what good is that? What is your definition of nor so it gets a little more complicated when we're talking like this on Talking about grandiose narcissism and that's a basic is rather than one kind, yeah yeah, it's a step back. So when we talk about narcissism in the in the psychological, whether you're we're talking about three different things that are related.
The first of these is narcissistic personality, and this is a trade and meaning that people go from a high level to a low level. It's not a clinical disorder. and in this trade when its grandiose, we sit grandiose narcissism. It's this combination of sense of entitlement and the sense of superior, we already, but also you get extra version and drive and ambition caught a gigantic extra version, so somebody who is driven and extroverted it also a little bit self centred and an antagonistic and entitled so that combination of, raids, kind of a prima donna- or you know, overconfident, cocky or whatever you want to call it- that we talk about is grandiose, narcissism and that's just it like a normal trade
there's another form of narcissism which we don't talk about as much in the normal. Well, but that's vulnerable narcissism, and these are the folks at our kind of think, they're really important. Think they should be it a lot of attention think through the smartest people the room, but no one really looks out. I'm no one pays attention to him, so they get in secure, they get depressed, their self esteem drops they think you know why and I get the attention, I deserve a kind of a legend legend in the row mind you know she's our beds like basement narcissists young living in their bomb, mom spaceman thinking a great they are and fantasizing about it and those more vulnerable. Folks, you don't see it the bars as much as in the basement, but you see him clinically because their depressed and they go see a clinicians sake- help me out an anxious. So those are the two normal forms of nurses in their trade and then there's this clinical form or psychiatric form kart narcissistic person,
now the disorder and pity and that personality form of narc personality disorder, form of narcissism is an extreme form of narcissism me of a high level of it. You know, like tramper, you know like Paley celebrities or academics, but you also to make it a clinical disorder. You have to have that impairment. We're talking about suit us, be clinically significant impairment and that's usually the narcissism is so bad. Your your marriage relationships are falling apart. You work, life could be falling apart. So sometimes you fine narcissistic, really successful people in an office or narcissists, but they they can destroy the office culture there them just bad workers and seek and destroy that you can make really poor decisions, because your ego so big, you just you, know over, invest in something and it just doesn't work out. For you see start this regulate in your.
Your financial decision, seek and make those kind of mistakes, the big ones, usually interpersonal. But when you have that kind of impairment it can be a disorder and then you get treated for it. The vulnerable and disorders, fascinate yeah, that's a fascinating one cause. You see a lot of them on social media in particular. Right you see people that feel like they should be getting me more attention than they are and diamonds and why and feel upset by that or short changed. These social media is such a strange bees because it gives everybody the chance to have a camera and have the audience of a billion people. So I can go on there and get a billion audience, but I have to earn that and see. If lots of people take a look, I can have a billion people in my audience,
I don't have those people. Why aren't they there, whose screw me over not give you my life where my followers, you know why I'm talking about being shadow band and he had a thousand friends and I'm like a? U are you sure, you're Shanna banned or you sure people are just not interested in what you say, maybe you're just not that interesting, but that's the weirdest thing to ever sailing. being shadow ban give evidence of those? What what is what is happening here? Why you're kind of outlaw did. I was not saying the shadow banning not real, but like people using
as an excuse for why they're not getting the did it the attention they deserve. I would be the next year Rogan, if it weren't for those dastardly shadow banner shareholding holding me back. They know that they can't silence. May they can't yeah, they did. If I got out there, I would change the world, but these guys are hold me back and you can see how that turns into like a delusional system. If you get the you know with sweat and more schizophrenia, where there's a whole world of people out there trying to hold me down, I want to get to that. I wanted to ask, if gets afraid we might as well get to renew the is their connection between schizophrenia and narcissism, because many people who are schizophrenia, calves. these grandiose ideas of who they are or who they should be or where they were they fit in that these ridiculously distorted perceptions of reality. Yeah I had set so grandiose d. You can see with narcissism. You know that in this
fantasy about a gray damn this illusion, but it's usually within the scope of reality. So if I'm trying to send a narcissistic there like I'm at and I'm pretty awesome, not really mad, It's not ok but, like maybe go back do the job. You know what is generally not it's not that it's not crazy right, I was working in a hospital with a woman who who was a patient? Who said that she worked, she was the tooth fairy And she worked for Reagan as the tooth fairy. That will that's it. Randy owes delusion. You now Reagan president, but he was still helping her behind the scenes.
That's a grandiose delusion, but you weren't call that narcissistic, because she wasn't really her personality visit razor, really narcissistic choose more skits, a frantic and presentation, kind of flat, ass fact, a little bit strange, odd or unusual and Adobe S, lack of feeling and stuff, but those weird delusions. So you can have those grandiose delusions, but it's not quite the same as narcissism. It seems to be working old differently and the other place you see him is mania with like bipolar disorder, people get really manic and they get these manic phases. And then I'm going to do this and to build this summit to take over this. My records can be the best and and that means can look like narcissism too, and those are prime more closely linked. Did this psychological disorders that were aware of the ones like narcissism, the ones like schizophrenia? Do we know what
happening in the mind that causes a distortion of reality. Is it is it? Is it ego protecting you from the truth? Is it a chemical imbalance? Is it a series of things that all coincide like we need one have someone who is both a narcissist and possibly scarce a frantic with narcissism, it's very hard to detect any thing that sort clearly biological like- and this is true for all personality relates we'd people. I've been looking at this last five years, pretty hard for suited biomarkers or neural structures, dont really seem very clearly, you do with schizophrenia there. Some is it with a dictator it's not my area, pointed out. I should Jamie. If I say thing wrong. Just check me and call me out and want to screw up near the best one hand agree on earth wishes to earth. Half yoke is theirs that you know there's an old stuff about your blood plaque in the brain.
And things with Alzheimer's. You see some missing neural structure, but that's just out of my area, but with personality generally don't sit in there. You just can't find it so far and when you look at you actually you know it's in the genes, but there's no single genes, swarms of gene So it is in the interests of your father is a narcissist. Are you more or less likely to be a narcissist more more, but what have you learned? your father, you, like my God, my father's, ruinous let like many alcoholics children that won't touch liquor and I've known quite a few Adam. Yeah. So in the end it in the clinical literature they talk about that as a sort of that identify years or vedantic fire with them or you do the opposite of the fathers, our colleague father. You send you you'd, like I'm a Tito, learn your father's a narcissist. You become really nice.
we don't really see that what you tend to see a mouse. It and happened is in our hands. But what you? Tens in the literature with these big family studies is that trade, like narcissism and all personality and really on mental disorders. They they tend to follow family lines so their heritable. But it's not really clear how that have happens whether it's nurturing nature right. I mean it's it's in there, but we don't know exactly what the genes are and when they start to look at the nurture question with a lot of personality. What you find is about and there's when they break these down into heredity care coefficients. They don't mean exactly what they sound but generally find it's about. Fifty sixty percent heritable you're born with it probably genetic and maybe ten percent, is parenting and maybe the other you know thirty. Forty percent is something in the environment.
That's just not really clear. Why did as the environment yeah just random environments? That's why you don't? You have kids and if you have to have two daughters, there very different people, part, that's genetics, obviously there very different and all but is also their environment. I might have been a similar parent to both of them, but there they have different friends. I grew up in a different time along different culture and all those forces effect you and why, yeah. Well, I understand so a lot of what happened. Sesar is non shared environment. We discount, really explain. Parenting is pretty small, real yeah yeah, it's weird What we say about parenting is it really doesn't make much of a difference, but it matters so so I've I've, I've, two daughters and in the idea, that I could change them into the one into the other through my parenting skills. You know I could take my one daughter loves to dance, and I could turn her into the one that lets you know math and I can take the math one and turn it into
I couldn't do that in a million years of different people. No way so I can't really shape my kids personality very well in peril, Just can't really do that, but you matter a lie and we put food on the table. You be apprised safe environment. You not threatening the kids. Are you know there's a lot you do is apparent matters, but you you can't really fine tune. Kids personalities very well, I'm out even try to stay, but what what can you do if you think, when we children as narcissistic personality disorder or You know in such there's a spectrum of gases yeah yeah somewhere in an like there's somethin, hereafter yeah grass well, I mean when I, plasma like. Is it like? They want their kids to be entitled. The I mean you, Just don't want that and end the number. One thing is trying to be that yourself be a good, all model and that's something we all struggle with.
the advice I give with with parenting college vice, but so do I give this is CPR just so people remember it, but these are things to focus on so that the thing with nurses ism is having the ego. Thank you, kids, like coming to be President shut up. You're, never gonna, be president limits are a funny out, is gonna go be UK site is not just stuff, your kids, you know a bit kids dream, that's great! It's not going to the ego parties more going at the interpersonal part. More so I say: CPR its compassion, passion, responsibility in, and so the compassion pieces, big and so lot of it with kids is focusing on. Like? Can you be a nice person? You nice to your system, united to animals, you know your kids are killing drowning pats. I'd be a lot of work to do now, but if their their lobbying
that's no living things and make people who are generally compassionate, don't become their narcissistic. They can be a little narcissistic, but it compassion to big buffer. So I think that's really important and people think about that. The one people think about a little less his passion like getting really excited about stuff, so it if it's I mean like for you, let's you're into archer and you're, just stoked about it and you're, telling your kids about archery and you shot an elk and it's the greatest day ever no one's, like God, there goes Joe he's braggin again just talking about where the great shoddy is. It doesn't sound like that, because you're showing passion you not like, I'm not the best shooter, this just awesome. Let me tell you about it, so if you get your kids in the things that they give them that passions month, we use that word flow in psychology, NATO, but flow stays you're gettin in those flows stage when you really
gauged and what you're doing and getting feedback to is that some of the shore? Yes, oh so you get those flows, states and you get that that sent a passion. When you do, you're evil to engage in it and a task it really good at it. Tell people about it, bring an end to it, but not be a jerk cause, not about your being better than any one spot and joy met and then the third peace. This responsibility pieces is just take responsibility for damn life, not just the thing. When narcissism, it's really easy to take response. Billy for success. But what do you do when you fail, and how can you learn to fail and then say yet I fail they screwed up it on me and keep going and so taking responsibility for your failures and learning to be responsible for your own action again as a buffer against narcissism, it's hard to get to beginning of an ego. When you see yourself failing over and over. You have a minute you now it keeps your ego and check, but we are actually talking about admitting failure before the partisan. I think it's a giant pardon
getting people to turn to listen to you. If you, if you dont, admit failure, they gonna go out disguise. Is it pretends he's never wrong or the sky pretending ever fox up, I'm not and then, and there they're. Looking at you know like well this person, I'm not now not going to take what they say very seriously, because I know they're looking at life, darted lens right. Does their lands is not accurate? It's not objective or not, considering all the different things that other people see in them, yes, because their lands is coloured by their own ego and they can't see pass through. An ego ensued. Ego and North Korea are inexorably connecting ass. He saw it so he got yeah you got. The ego glasses on when ever get to certain areas is kind of blind spot, and then I lit when the world's insane right and we're all trying to figure out which real and I just listen to people, and when I hear people that screw up- and they say their sorry or they make mistakes. I can trust that person run when people never make mistakes. I get nervous
Should I go I going to class. I'm like I'm gonna, be right. Eighty percent of the time in here you guys, Google, everything. I say you did. I mean it's hard to be kept me. It's you can't be interesting and hundred percent of time it just not possible I am specifically thinking out loud right and when the idea that eager oh and narcissism are connected. There is, I think, there's a benefit two ego in that you value yourself and you value your own success and that will force you to work hard and that will equal. You know some success in whatever he tried to achieve, but is a value in narcissism or is it possible to be ambitious and achieve things but do so in a compassionate and objective way. We're not. Distorting your own view.
of yourself, you're not distort you not. You alienating other people with some asinine perspective. Of who you are it's, it's a very challenging question and I think about this when a lot- and I give you my short answer and then my logger answered some are complicated- that the short answer is this line I heard from Bob Dylan, but it was attributed to Liam Clancy from the Clancy brothers. Witches, no fear, no meanness. No envy hope I got there. No fear no envy no meanness, but it's it's the Indus about how to live a creative life, and this year idea was you need to be fearless? You need to be bold to change things that piece of narcissist
which we sometimes call fearless dominance or boldness, this this sort of extra version and drive that we'll get you into trouble, sometimes because you're taking risks. But generally you have to take those risks to be it to get successful. He have to take risks so that boldness seems to be something. That's pretty useful for things. Were you get in trouble? Is the meanness is being mean, the people that antagonism like I want to start a podcast and I'm in forcing them into his take out the competition. You know like a lion you know like lions and in the savanna they earn it wherever forestalled, wipe out every predator out there they'll say it. They'll see a hunting dogs of this scale because, like predators, so that meanness, that piece of narcissism will get into trouble all the time in ruins, your relationships and the third pieces, insecurity and sometimes with narcissism that manifests. Might manifestos envy? Oh, my god, the cow six
as for that year, that comedian is he's, got that HBO Especial that should be mine and island areas, stew and envy it's hard to get ahead when you got envy and then so so of those three pieces, the boldness pieces, I think the one that matters, the other p. where success is whatever we do for most of us, our successes, interpersonal, we're working in fields, we might be in medicine and college ear and comedy ear, entertainment or you know, whatever the field as farming you have to work all those people, you're competitors are also year cooperators and if they all hate you they're not gonna, want to work with you anymore, So there's this old saint, like I mean you must know, entertainment, I dont know this, but there things like you know, be nice to keep on the way because you can see him on the way back down and stuff like that. She's gotta be something where few just kind of an arrogant s, so be it
but I want you around is gonna, hurt you yeah, because they just don't they do they just don't want you they're. So the narcissism is really just messing up. Your abilities succeed because you don't have any friends, but if you, if you're willing to take risks and be bold people be friends with you can kind of fun to be friends with somebody, risks and it's got duty and in some people with some people that have that vulnerable narcissism will be upset a Jew Keziah and that that's a weird one. When you see people do well, the other people are actually upset that the person is doing well because they think that somehow another should be them. That gets these things you know in its it's not a small thing and in the relationships world versus this term called capitalization. So when something good happens to you, you know like K C, I a book about demagogue at a book about its great who do I tell where, if I go how people who are envious, then there's gonna be mad at me. If I go tell people who are jealous underscore,
make him feel bad around make. People feel bad, but I've got a couple friends who are just there, not insecure run and they like dude, I'm really proud. That's really also that's a disturbing moment when you tell friend about some good things that happen. What girl great another group throwing her up and you should be good for you, keys, yeah, Zurich, on it. Meanwhile, barely pay, my bills, Kenneth, just in those men, were like Netflix FUCK. This was enough to do it when I'm sand. Should you be happy please at that we're friends, man, some people just don't want other people to do well. Does it forces them to look at? her own achievements or their own life and their own relationships their own. It Alex some people, don't like it. When people are involved in relationships that try to sabotage of relationships, we will review if my if my narrative, we're like marriage, doesn't work, and then I see my body is married, unlike damn, thereby my narrative, so I could either change and stored. Like Keith doesn't work, you know stone in a word for, a broad and so going to
said: vulnerable narcissism, Pierre that insecurity, as I always said, Joe passion that Movie Miller's crossing demerit, dont momentous likely you lookin at me. Are you who you're laughing at Miller's chrome knows only those who was no good, fellows yeah? That's it! That's right! Thank you, Jamie, for, he's odd gets him yeah like that scene, though we're somebody so and secure that that a waiter laugh smiling That is like, like what kind of loser lets us Smiling waiter, put him into a tantrum, but now said fonder ability. and what you're seeing is, as is very easy to exploiting people cause. If you see where their vulnerability is, you can just poem I was fascinating. Is all these different parts of a human beings personality and how a person manages these or doesn't manage these and how the interface with each other it all places. huge part in how the rest the world feels about you and
how you do in life and what kind of relationships you have, and also why there are not yet able to grow and learn? Because if you're not look at yourself accurately, you never a grow and learn exactly. The challenge with ego is the message that makes us feel good is often the messages that doesn't give us the information we need yeah message like that. Might ties the over. It's got a plan d. They get punch in the phase that pay that face patch is worried that the information you need by plan saw they discuss pointing the phase. But what, if but which we heard about life, is you can build a life where you get a lot of positive feedback and you're not get in the negative feedback. You can build that life, for yourself is just a very small life, because you have to put these war all around you, so no one can get in there and say you're. An idiot and european Muslim. Hard moments are the ones you grow from difficult moments to accept local,
bosses, like big losses, those aware you grow the most because when, when you do fail, we do make mistakes. It forces you to really take an accurate account, of who you are and what happened, and why you had this colossal failure and that's how you grow. Yes, but it's hard for people to I mean you, lots of people fail and dont, the connection with themselves, rather than a gleam other baby, lame everyone else very dangerous sorts. It sometimes is hard to do that. Then it sounds and the other thing is we dont. So if the world were people fail all the time bright, like you gotta, we just don't fail all the time anymore, with a danger not failing right with kids when kids get participation trophies, for you know we're not going keep score. My daughter had a soccer game which is three and they like we're, not gonna keeps or like. Why, when you keep score, is well when the other score than these kids feel bad for you, it's good that, first of all they,
and you're gonna be ok. If someone scores on you and you get past, that feel bad go. You know I like it when I picked up on the net. How do I get better taken ball than that because of it, matter. Then you never develop disability to do difficult things and get better at them. Right and competition is functioning. Matter. You know if it doesn't matter no fun. As someone thinks that ball passed you and it goes the network's shit and everybody yeah like yeah you I do sports. It's like you, do baseball you strike out, two thirds The time you mess or somethin, like you, feel all the time and baseball soccer is low score. I mean you go and athletic you. You got a loser. the time that it is part of it and if you are not able to lose, you can never get better run. So if you, anyway, blade protect children from its very strange This is not something that happened when child or when you were a child, is fairly recent,
the disaster in protecting children from the feeling of losses, yeah, hey is that holds the safety. Is all these different cultural changes and I helicopter parenting. I I'm a big believer natural consequences that something I think it's good for kids and natural consequences. is the term we use like. If you grab the stove and you get burned, you just got nine doing that again like I only. I don't need to tell my kid, like IE, shunted down that you idiot, I got a memo right and so on, things like I may. I grew up your surfing. You got there and no one could ocean and about you, you go out there and you know what you're doing it's great you don't just it just crushes. You know, and your ego, you just can't ever ego and and and network big wave surfers are it's kind of chill. Yeah was helpful that way about ocean towns as well. There's something about being connected to something that so big any idea, that you're really important it goes away. When you look at the ocean
that would be like if I start drifted next step is what we can now and it's it's very. It's very liberating because it's a music, it's kind of like a little all variants. Somebody, those big ol experiences, can be good for reducing ego yandah, but any of those natural consequences and failing to lose in a kind of Europe up who you are and its in its very liberated after wall will this one of the reasons why I always told men particular young guys that Jujitsu, whose great it's great medicine for your ego, cause you're, one hundred percent gonna lose there's no doubt, but unless you some super enormous person that, just as some freak body, most people get dominated alive and when you get beaten a lot you develop disability, to understand your place in the food chain. In terms of that, and you also accept losses better. You realize you're gonna be ok, it's just a game. If you lose it,
Packers doesn't seem like that big of a deal you lose at a game of Jiu Jitsu. It seems very devastating, but once you lose a bunch of times, your ego gets managed better as much healthier for you get caught. To losing their many men that don't ever participate in sports or any ever participate in anything athletic when their young anything competitive, they D get the adults in there in this weird stage, where they never fully matured. They live, they ve, never develop disability, to understand the value of healthy competition users of real value to it. It's a game that you or its protecting yourself from that of laws is actually dangerous for you. It's almost like a wash their hands to much never gets exposed germs, like you need to do our understanding of what it feels like to fail serve a psychological abuse, system of yeah right in that sense, I like that I think you're right I one of my grad students.
so each fits heroes, delegate about it and it's like you get choked out all this time rises like in that your consequence, yogi does get knocked out. Will you be luckily dont get knocked out you get choked in denouncing about that? Doesn't give you brain damage like getting hit. Does ok so and you www tab out before you get choked out. So you don't get any damage from really just get the sort of breeze up a little bit, but the the benefit. Of it is it's a con you're doing it constantly and Jujitsu people in general are some of them I says, friendliest people. The easiest to get along with because they have control of the ego. They understand it is about allows gonna. Ask you that, so how is ego? Does it get wipe down the martial arts, doesnt hygiene always right? It's firstly with dominated, especially people that are like conquerors, wonder of winning championships, justifies allow them a very, very, very strong egos sometimes overwhelmingly so in some of guys, it's really interesting is when they lose, especially they lose badly boy did
changes their whole life like they never become the same again. Some manner act from yeah because, like physically, maybe they're they're the same but psychologically, there so damaged from having that ego death that day really never recover from because a lot of their rights for success as they felt like there, the man, I'm the fuckin man and wins, one comes along and says no on the man like ocean and he's the man and then you're intimidated, and then you you don't realize like ok, this is like mathematics. This is This is these are equation source. All sorts of things going on you fail shore. In a number of areas. We must look at it like you're. Looking at a problem, you have to look at it like you, looking at some sort of a mathematical equation. What went wrong? Well, I was lacking conditioning, I was lacking. The understanding of these positions where I got caught and traps I didn't know the defence. I need it add all those things to my repertoire and then all-
have to work on my psychology after work on my mind, because when I did get into a situation where I was vulnerable sword to panic, and then diminished? My ability to think well under stress because being able to think well, stress also huge factor, but instead of thinking, of it in terms of like your person he's a person present beat you like think it in terms of like math. I think of all these different factors that are play Where were you lacking and what was wrong with your approach and then you and then its gives you this terrible. Lost, gives you a terrible feeling, but it's also a terrible. It's a terrible feel. but it's an amazing opportunity to grow all my biggest grow. moments in my life of come from colossal failures. So why changes. Somebody in a fight from looking at it from an ego to amend a break. This down is really not me and you, when not competitors,
just these numbers moving around and I gotta figure out what, where my weaknesses are- and you know like bruce- lay like I've had my kick in this and break down- I mean it does. Can some people do that can ever when do that, you need some special you getting coach, the comes in and kind of, coaches tapes with you or some men sure yeah lobbied, as do the Lahti guys look at tapes by themselves: logos limitation of Coaches MIKE Tyson, famously had a one of his managers was a historian of boxing, so MIKE Tyson would watch old films of like the gray Jack, Johnson and Jack, Damn C and like Harry Grab and all these old school, officers need look at their movements and he would adopt some of their them. Their attacks and defence, and you know, there's there's definitely benefit to watching yourselves
and seeing where you screw up, and but this also benefit to having a mental coach MIKE Tyson also had custom motto. Who was his long time boxing coach you adopted avenues? Thirteen was also a hypnotist and worked with him on the mental aspect of his game and would literally say to him. You do not exist. Only the task exists, the task of breaking this man down, and this was in power. Did in him when he was a small boy? Was for thirteen years old and also What what was imparted was that when he did do this thing he expects it's love and creation and adulation at a level that he never had in his life, so his life. He was at this great deficit of love. He didn't have a lot of love and is family lives in terrible neighbourhood. There was no one, therefore him so that all There's a man who just happens to be one of the greatest boxing coaches of all time, who takes him
is also a hypnotist, was also a master of psychology in regards to combat sports and trains this young man to be one of the greatest of all time, and of course the results are unbelievable, but you have a perfect storm of things. Have two because he's also incredibly physically gifted so you have, he has incredible speed in power which speed in power That is why I really can't do much about power. They give your person small bones, and you don't hit very hard cash. It's not it's not in the cards for so he had all these things going for him, had power at a young age, but it a lot of it was like having someone who understood had a more him psychologically and a person that egos very important like you have a key, would talk about. There's a great documentary Thyssen talks about his walk into the ring and
in the beginning, his nervous he's unsure himself by the time he gets into the ring, he's a God and in doing so in his ego, he used at Eagle strategically him yeah, that's cool, it has trusting cause it, but it could also create massive problems where you, as it did for him outside of the ring. Why it sounds I mean I don't know the hammer any by any these people, but it almost sounds like he's been somewhat exploited at that age and having is turning his psyche into a structure to make him. a bit of a weapon and pride benefit in other people. I don't know a little bit of benefiting on people, but also greatly benefiting himself. Oh yeah became one of the greatest headway boxes, the world's ever known so there's this prose, and HANS there, but my point was that there is something to the ego in that regard where I think had to have to be Michael Jordan Right, for instance, who is it who had a tremendous ego huge but
also one of the greatest, if not the greatest basketball player of all time, but obsessed dirty video, Jimmy actually play to foreign ones. Where there was a video where some guy was talking shit about me. Jordan, after he retired, and so Michael Jordan, Kay back and played and one on one is strong, legitimate, Gordon, don't always talk and shit all thy. Who is Jamie? Did you blaming that happen multiple times? men, a documentary they go over five or six different situations. Where he's going back over someone slighted him in this and the tiniest way and just wreaked havoc was the already points on Yahoo com. Like you act like that exist, offered to hear he was his ego is substantial and is I'm sure, but So the results are substantial right
and that's it and so the question. I wonder- and this is really a question because I dont get to study high performance athletes with narcissism Morton. You don't get to do it. I mean you can get magic, get data from president and set that you give him his story ends, but it you just don't really have the data, and I wonder if you know like obviously from Mohammed Ali and stuff, and that's your braggadocio before fights that if in those combat sports ego, is super important to develop me theoretically makes sense. in a one on one cop Arusha and it's not about a team? It's you just have to win up to a point. I would say what I was saying before that the people that get destroyed who are these enormous egos when they get exposed? It takes incredible care to build yourself back up and some never do some good psychologically defeated and then never the same again, because the pain of loss in the pain of being exposed as being inferior to your opponent is just too much, but I wonder,
but that has had such a rare example of when it would be beneficial to be narcissistic or beneficial to Heaven go watchmen, I mean it's, but if you look across the literature the place it seems to work is individual competitiveness, because, if you're in a tea, so imagine how you see this in teams all the time. So the old stories a quarterback gets, goes in front of cameras Missy. I want it for the team in the next time the front line, just let the defense through in the quarterbacks dad, because next time you went to go see. I just want to thank my team and God, and then the team supports it, because in a team sport you can't be really successful without a team, maybe that maybe basketball a little bit but like football and stuff. So it keeps that ego but with boxing or fry it's just you. It is, but it also is a team as well, because you need a coach in you need someone to train, He correctly in Thyssen's case. When is coach died custom motto died, and then he is relationship with his coaches. Afterwards detour,
created to the point where he really is having like bucket carriers in in the ring where he his career, faded. It see me the act of its kind. You need someone you respect to. You need someone who's. I can make you drop your fuckin left hand, stop doing that! Ok, ok, thank you. Like you need someone who sees your failures in your mistakes and- and checks you on them and you need to respect that person says. Michael Jordan have person who were Think Michael Jordan was so hard on himself and so like so obsessed with winning mean a thing. This is why I wanted to bring him up, because I think there's psychological issues that these extreme winners have that you don't get to where they are without them. It's like the with the illness becomes beneficial right, you're, not sadistic. You don't make a good serial killer, right or good internet trolls yeah.
But, if you're, not if you're, not narcissistic or eager and egomaniac, I wonder if you ever become a guy like Michael Jordan, which is so dominant, or he is an example of somebody, He was very egotistic, I mean that's that I don't know I am, but that's what people say. Competitive, you know and its we work form any sit with us. So the other option might be that well, if you're kind of a dick and you're really the good people? Let you get away with it with that for Kobe Bryant they caught them. Mama mentality is known for having this mentality. Where winning at all costs, if you're not with fuck, you well, I'm gonna win now and also one agrees about ass, one hundred yards. It's it's weird, it's weird and they can read cavack on your personal life, because other people feel left out or maligned or not appreciated, or by Knoweth Kobe. He got back with his
anyway, and was trying to make work and was a pretty committed dad it. He made a correction you'd acid, which is also when you achieve a failure in your personal life. You know of a person who is so dedicated to success. The only way he got that good is when he encountered mistakes or failures. He corrected. So obviously he made that same adjustment as personal life as well right. You must have felt especially that the the You know the public issues that he had. He must have felt that they were tremendous failures money he had to make corrections. So what you said there's really interesting because that's the question this is so Look at then go that's a public failure about my marriage and- and is this solution to that about me winning by having the way. Mean marriage or do you say it's a public fail about my marriage? I need to be a more loving person and diskette connected to my family. More, isn't it
national person. You think that answer is dependent mean how you answer that question, I should say, is really dependent upon what it. What's your priority, Like is your priority. You or your priority you and the people who love I can can you works out into the equation right. it just fucked her I'll get a new wife. You know who does know me they're good, I mean, but that's so that people do that now in our system, as they said they would. You just got new I found it. Someone do that, unlike what they got, a new car society thing, I'm not a famous a celebrity type people wind of doing that. The exact thing right is it. My my doctoral dissipate dissertation was on narcissism, unromantic attraction and new misguided. In fired by Tromp Gazeta he's really by all its grey. Always are these beautiful wives? You know well and I mean I was back in the day and it seems like you said
hold down now? By tat I mean it was just the thing people dead, trophy trophy spouse word seems like to be that guy, who has your name on the buildings and has your name on the jet in decline. Have to have a super hot wife cargo. It's kind of part of that address guided brand seems to have been started. The brand thing that what's its also narcissism thing, because you want everyone to see all the great stuff that you have said we wanted but see his beautiful laid. It is I do not see your name The building, yeah, yeah and end again works, and why not do the problem? Is that the other three wise before that one? Maybe aren't you unhappy about it yeah, but they should in his partners like that's that's why? What it is this? Who is this with kindness and ass the game with many of these like high profile businessman, the game is, you know, get a hot wife, by a jet. Maybe an island, you know, keep moving always show everybody that
you have the nicest thing step out of the bulgarian. You know you know all that stuff yeah, but dad scattered the class a grandiose narcissism pattern and and the reason, and that that's life strategy is a successful strategy for a lot of people. I mean you get status and fame and some money when you lose a lot of money in those alimony payment is not a courts and other great clean clean. But but you know it works for a lot of people, but it's it's a very demanding lifestyle, but it's also what we talked about earlier. Look, what is success like there's many people live in a log cabin and have a real, simple life, but the real happy and then there's people that have you know House in Manhattan and they take a helicopter, the airport to fly their private jet the Paris and their fuckin miserable and there on antidepressants and take pills and they now yet are constantly and stress. Yet, if you try to get that, so the problem will try to get status. I mean trying to be happy because yours
cooler than other people like give higher social status, it's impossible to win, because there's always somebody better than you there is now there will be in five years or in five years, no one's going to give a rat's ass. What you did in the first place, because I think they like football for loser. Is we got rid of football, only idiots blade football I wonder like when a guy like Jeff Pesos, gets two two hundred billion dollars like this. Just enjoy working. Maybe he does Maybe he's, enjoys the game of working at that point. It's not for money. As you know, ended. I it would be money, as a counter may be, is like a marker. It wouldn't be like I can go by another bagasse I mean you could buy em all by the guiding company to be accompanied by any I nevertheless, it is then to be eaten up in the next stop bump yeah. He be curious to talk to but then he went got the new wife he's got a girlfriend
got the girl, neuron area there. She's done that can happen around guys. I dont not kept up with a bunch of high profile, fellows good she's, gonna little thing going everyone's happy, and you know I hope he's happy yeah, but it's it's curious. It's like I mean it's one thing: if it's someone is like, maybe a writer and they like Jk Rowling sous worth like a billion dollars right or more, and she is obviously still writing. She loves writing. Yeah. It's not like she made that money just doing business Things should enjoy doing she may that money is a consequence of our art. It makes sense to me that she keeps writing but, Wonder I've always wondered what the guys like that they're businessmen. Do you enjoy the business aspect of it? Do you enjoy that there is there something about showing showing up at the office and banging out to Hours a day, that's exciting to you, people I know do it. I like it
It is in this light on business. They kind of didn't get school they going to gain, they got an office. They got a team that russian it sounds like fun. I fear that we are again yeah and then social media. This is how we kind of I briefly, but it seems to me that. If there is anything in this world that feeds narcissism, it would be Instagram. It is I mean so social media. So so I first heard about phase of its bite been ten fifteen twelve years whenever came out- and I went to one of my students Laura like this- is crazy. We got a study. This study nurse This is a myth phase, but this is crazy. So, twelve years ago you thought yeah, I mean first ain't like that already exist and roused seven do as I hate the papers like two thousand seven or eight young and and
We looked at narcissism, like other people were narcissistic to more friends on Facebook. They they spend more time on their picture. They get more glamour, shards you to see these that that they pay using social media tat kind of put out an image in themselves and get followers and people of looking at it, sent him with narcissism. You see people or narcissistic or just more dialed, antisocial made it more followers. More friends. More connections send Marcel fees, they can take. The kind of thing is this dialed infer narcissism narcissism is the energy it's one of the energies born of the beginning she's that keeps those systems working and Instagram people have really done a lot of comparison. Social media work like as narcissism hyreanus diagram than Twitter versus Tik Tok at the? U. Now, because these things came to be, they change culturally, and we don't have that much money. Do research
but when I look at em, Instagram seems like the one that's kind of dialogue in for narcissism particular causes. Photographic Zenos does very good for status, seeking also it's the easiest to lie because you have filters. Oh yeah, and then people posed in front of cars that maybe they rented or aren't, there's or I find them whole thing hilarious. We re you get it I pass, I mean, is that I guess I parents figure go that's the idea. You too, that's why they call my Stacy Stay Youtube. Figured I posted Malibu. You know you rent a house on the beach people and lived the dream taken, bunch of photos, while there's money in it So it's crazy. It's like if we're going by the magic tat we used earlier to define this success ass, like what is successes if financial success because we were. I was read an article today. We are actually talking about this last night with him more to dinner and we're talking about boa, which is stay cows. In Hollywood, that's filled with Tik Tok stars now,
that's believe it or not. This is one of the big you steakhouses in Hollywood, and it's like a known in place where Tik Tok stars go and they they people take pictures of them in. But these tik Tok stars you. Stupid? Well, is it cuz they're making millions of dollars? He didn't bow, I'm not so if, but if they were making Millie. If you are not making millions of dollars, you like, like I'm an accountant, I'm a serious person and I make three hundred thousand dollars a year you doing very well, but this Tik Tok star me three hundred thousand dollars a month and no one. That is why our but they're doing it are. They is that dumb and it is part of, but they're doing is hype houses and in a showing pretty watches and showing go the hearings and diamonds and nice cars and all that shit like it seems like It's like a financial strategy. That's very benefit. no, but it's also based on bullshit and eager. What is this tik Tok
The growing influence of those four renting fake private jet set. is a sad. Oh, my god, you have already been set there's a set. That's all that is how Larry us, oh my god, That is the areas they re, fake, private jets wow how weird. although it when we see that the post was say, sense, now I just found out: Ellie grows using studio. Sicily with private gesture instrument. Pigs is crazy. Aging you're looking at could be fake. The setting two clones the, gee, I don't know just sort of shakes. My reality, a bit Ella well well, I'm not shocked, but I am
I've got to have, and I'm not it's weird put that thing of bawling boiling Anna Control, no shown everybody. I the first time I figured I'd first time this stuff click was our teacher class. Agus I'm an hour in the students in european attention there looking at the font and what do want you during class in their their watch In closing, I knew her dashing They are Jenner, they Kiley Jenner, like Dr Inner a ferrari and allay like over curve and like all I just hurt to watch, because, unlike why, this beautiful card and unlike but there just watching Her- and unlike oh, my god, this woman is a genius. She figure this out, like she was directly beaming tv right to my students and dishonor mediated studios in the riders and the scraps and she's. Like I'm just drive him,
It's amazing incredible what catches people's eyes and what makes something viral Jamie now we're looking at this video yesterday, this dude who is on a or drinking cranberry juice sing along too Fleetwood MAC, I saw that identity. Oh my god. I love that got something that these things alone and it you know it just is common for whatever reason is compelling, maybe when the world this this bad, just a guy, just levin- is best life on. This is just what this the hero we need, maybe because, like it's all so that the way he's doing alike there's no showing off there. He just got crime. reduce drinkin right. The bottle, Rowan skateboards now, where ailing fancy kind of Stone areas live in the dream. Licks, maybe.
babies meet maybe in a protocol the man behind that Fleetwood, MAC, skateboarding, Tik, Tok, video wow love. It has faced gardens where two yeah, that's him so when you watch this guy Roland, like he's just whereas sweatshirt does not. crazy about it. So going cranberry juice he's a father from Wyoming to savage good time, as is really fun, because he stoked eighties Para and you're like this guy's awesome. Boys is really having fun when, when someone's been genuine, would someone's having fun for whatever reason that resonates, whereas it doesn't have to be some chick on a fake jet set pretending here I am with my howdy lives off. It's it's just a regular. Do he's a regular do landscape boy with a head ahead? Tattoo he's got.
leaves tat its feathers, something but is he's having fun? they clearly having a good time like this. We we recognize, anticipate. We see it in that guy. That's a real smile earlier sing and along to those songs, yeah but but authenticity. Why two interesting? Because how do you find it a bit like lightning at a ball of fire that and then a few bride him into sentence it. Do you think that it is the authentic and I tried to do? That's one of the brilliant things about social media is that there is no other people involved. So you get a chance. You get a chance to see these moments like outright, in this to a friend of mine, who is a producer, he produces television shows in a bunch different things and used we're talking about doing he's he's getting into the park ass world, but his talk about doing podcast and is talked about. Why is it that odd CAS they they have this residence
there's something there resonate with people in a way that, like a toy show on television doesn't and why sounds like because too many people in these television shows whose too many we'll staring there's too many unnatural aspects of it like this is really natural right. You and me. I just sit at a desk, there's a lot of you watching and listening, but it just happens to be that way: Did you know that right? There's? No one here here is just you and me sitting at a desk if there was no one else paying any tension. There's no cameras doing weird is the headphones right, but in firstly, this is the best way to have a conversation, because I hear you the same level that I hear me. So it keeps you from talk, no real and we're locked into it. Are there, so we don't hear any extraneous noise. I see this as a sound prove room price. You're anything outside anyway? But that's? Why works with the weather? Why works is because it's just happening right. There's no caught! Kate. I liked what you said: yeah right out again. Did you think you maybe
you're too happy that Donald Trump doing. Well, I mean this day and age is mobile, uncomfortable as those tried again this time. What I want you to do is to say just a little disdain we ve had to stay right. We we're both were banned. It out here still sneer ok, try again and soldiers that's in scope- and I bet you have a right of you're doing a documentary interviewed about. They want to use those men comments are hard like authentic moments are hard to achieve. You know and inauthentic moments right, especially when you do not over a long period tarmac apart, guess you can have some hiccups and clunky more, but those who cubs reassure people that, This is like he's as a person this like just like me, and he is just about this and interfere in the middle of something your lamp. It may actually- maybe I might be wrong here and in Egypt people see you rethink things in real time. It makes sense.
you don't ever see that one of those highly produce television shows they would cut out the rethink thing here and there go Keith! Let's try it again. Now that you ve thought it lets you can you just say one more time make it all yet lack demographic yeah. I saw them it's me think of is gonna somewhere topic, but I went to a bill a bit, that's where they were building building virtual reality systems for to treat PTSD and troops put on virtual reality glasses when you go back to like virtual Iraq, a virtual Afghanistan and it's supposed to bring you back to those feelings, and I thought well I'll, try and see what it's like never been there, but the way they did it is they show you in a room with a bunch of guys Doin cigarettes round. playing cards talking, but no draw I narrative is just kind of random stuff.
said the reason that work did seem somewhat more real than movies or television is that movies? Everything is everything. Feeds ended the narrative, so there's no kind of extraneous stuff. It's all narrative based. We watch a certain way, but when it doesn't, when there's things it don't feed in the narrative which kind of random people get more engaged in, it seems more real. So, unlike in pulp fiction, whether those random conversations, cheeseburgers, rather than as part of the movie, has nothing to do the plots, as is gonna random, stop it brings people and because it makes it seem real yeah it kid see this feeling, like you, don't know what to expect, because weird stuff happening that you didn't expect right in the moment right like one, if you watch law and order shows or something that one is real. Predictable television shows no disrespect landward but set there's some cookie cutter shows or you I see a common along and in some ways were some people at satisfying to see the bad guy get car the end, maybe he's a limit of a plot twist. You didn't see that's a nice surprise, but for the most part
you kind of know, what's happening. Procedural but you see a movie like no country for old men, where the A guy gets way ASEAN and you like foot a flock and you walk out of it. I wouldn't like that. Did I loved it, but I was like disturbed who said like I still freaks me out her eyes. Oh, my God is Jamie, such a great role to go. The terrible here. he got scared me. I dont get these fuckin fantastic. I don't get haunted by a law that that's at one move. Em like I don't wanna watch this when I believe, I can't do that to be like apple. It like it is thick. Stick with the cows disk, open, yeah, there's something about him and he's is he's got that there's people that have that thing right where they can embody whatever it is whether psychopath or whether it's you know boredom. Yet Javier Bardell MECCA can picture hobbyhorses, go
Yeah that blocker among farmers scares me ass, giving them I'm right there. You are there. We curses that Jesus Christ, what that guy, your kitchen. Is you just, but doesn't come across as just kind of all evil. It just seems much more like normal, like I'd, is normally evil explosive felicity, today. I can look like anything, can happen at any moment in New York. nervous than he's: gonna just kill you, like you like to eat your like? What do I do to fix those whose scaring people once again go at any moment, yeah that that gave me the creeps them over looming yeah, two great movie, and but the differences right like there's things
happening in that film that, like keep you on edge, you never get comfortable. You never feel like. I understand what this movie is now now you never you're comfortable and that's it that's the case of perfection as well. A lot of turn tenos movies. Do that he's very good at tat, keeping you like guess, like when we fuck as you going with us, and you can't really foreclose out another movie, happy ending Ramona. Go get a talk now, it's it's! You you're still the M thing by still thing about that: guy well the way the mind works is so interesting in the way the mine interfaces with other people the way their certain people that, for whatever reason they just bring out the worst in some folks right, absolutely, but in different ways, some people make people angry some people, this kind of destabilize thanks than people cause drama, yeah that'll, do different things. People also pick some people make.
Feel Billig. Some people legitimately can make you a better person. Because when you around them, you wanna do better. You wanna, you wanna, be better and you couldn't. Yes, you that my point was it. The opposite is true too, like and this is where the nature verses nurture when it comes to narcissism, more any other eagle problems, I Wonder like if you're in a bag Environment how much does that shape you as a human being a cow much of that change? Who your? If your round the wrong kind of people, how much it? How many people or out there that are lastly, around bad people may go. You know what that's how you get ahead in this world. You gotta be an asshole Allow me to be an asshole too, so I think you're, totally right. I mean there one idea so nice there's this idea, which I bought the Michelangelo phenomenon, really that you're gonna get relationships with people that are really good for you and I'm glad they bring out the best
Part of the right. You know somebody you like, they see you for the best part. They see the inner they see key than they see the best part a key than they and end like they make me a better per and you want, to be- and I don't want to be in an ace the purse- the key they see is a lot better than they Keith. I see, and that makes me better other people- don't do that bringing down given you the wrong message and you can either imitate them in fail or when you're trying to succeed, they just pull down they do it. I'm doing and sometimes it's little things like sometimes is little people just like little store little criticisms that people will do when you talk to them. They, like she from being comfortable. He had little jobs. I oughta big deal. God, why so sensitive like em? sensitive because it are fuckin annoying to be around, and I gotta get away from you and those little time. these things the imo or how to govern once it was really negative. Like everything was, could complain,
about everything, and then I moved California and I met this. Girl was really nice and I'm overthinking the difference. The way around her was like now havin fun like oh, we could just have last together, like Ikey, you can have. But you don't have to be around someone. That's always wearing you down, but if you are a chain who you are too because your reality, like is, is, is your interface sing with this negativity all the time and they can shape your personality. Can shape how you interface with the world of commercial really I mean that's what happens all the time you get in this? I mean this is goes back in the old self research like. How do you brute raise your self esteem? we'll get around people who, like this, that helps a yak is allied to your self esteem, is determined by the people around you and people that are anxious all time bringing you down. If you get six like you're saying that you get successful, they look bad guys, jabbing. You are going to cure
had ever yeah that's bad. The other thing is trauma This does trauma and life screws people up it just doesn't We can be very specific, so you get allotted young, trot, childish, traumas deck and lead the narcissism it can lead to other things as well. It doesn't seem to be specific, but it makes your personality le more rigid, and maybe you know maybe two or more fragile. So it's not a guy think, but it's not really specific, and what kind of bad thing is. Traumas also creates personality in some people at some people, trauma shapes their personality. The recovery from trauma builds character, and so on. more interesting per year? People that I know had traumatic up yeah there's this really interesting idea. They talk about his post, traumatic growth, so
It's weird about about life is, we can have like when trauma happened, to can lead to really negative things in really positive things both simultaneously and some of the negative things would be. You know PTSD or stressors, or you know anxiety at whatever difficult breyer. Relaxing kind of been wound up all the time, but the positive things are. The trauma can give you a motivation to grow and goes seek new things and Canada Classic Book on. This was Somerset moms the razors edge that the bill Murray made a movie of this him as a while ago, busy a guy in world were one who was traumatized in the war and and went out and ended up going to India answered of seeking seeking some religion, but but but who are traumatized you your suffering. You need to seek a way out, and sometimes that path, the growth can we do it better place than you would have been if you'd never suffered in the first place right in that's, what's powerful about traumas was powerful but suffering.
When we talk about narcissism, what there's an eye The idea that I have had- and I think a lot of people have when it comes to Narcissus, that they're not redeemable yeah I don't like that idea anymore and its because it was very common. It was what I thought when I started studying narcissism mendicants, it's just so difficult to redeem, like alcohol tax, or rather scuffled, runs out Ex one, as we thought. Personality was pretty fix without all personality, afraid that it was fixed in the first six seven years and maybe James I may be the first fifteen or eight ten years, but it may be thirty, but we generally thought people's personally got fixed when they are young and then when they they destroy, stayed the same way and that doesn't seem to be the case. People do seem to be able to change
and then the other thing with Narcissism- is that when people want to change your somebody's depressed or anxious it's hard, you go to therapy to do a lot of work. You spend time it's hard to do, but people can do it. People with narcissist who a nurse mystic often turn of the motivation to change. They have some motivation to change the marriage socks or their their work has fallen apart, but they feel pretty get about themselves. So there's a real high drop out rate, therapy. So whenever you look at narcissism therapy, you find a huge problem of people staying in it. But if you get people to go in it and stand at it looks like people can change that isn't over what do they do excessive Donald Trump type person or someone who was pretty obviously narcissistic goes to a therapist. How do they do
well, you know others there's no gold standard for therapy for narcissism, because there has been net, there's, never been randomize clinical trial on closer narcissistic therapies, which conducted get a hundred people narcissistic and put fifty, and one can mission and fifty and the other we need more, but hundred one condition seems like so many other aspects of their life that are currently in flock it's hard to find that many people and you just very hard to find so we just don't have that kind of data we do for. Their disorders, depression and sometimes made borderline personality disorder. We lie people hospitalized for it. We have some so there's, no. Hence it. This is what work science is proven. You know it doesn't what seems to happen as their different therapies. They range from the classic, more psycho, dynamic therapies. You know, if you are in New York and we're narcissistic, you might see somebody and aid talk about
your childhood a little bit. They talk about. What's going on now, they probably link it to your childhood and some trommer issues you had in childhood and try to kind of rebuild that narrative about your life. and it would be a longer process and are below more self reflective so that soon and more psycho dynamic therapy, a cognitive behavioral therapy, which is pretty cool. Make it do it around here anywhere. They would that's it. Let's look at the specific behavioral path. learn to domestic you up the certain patented thinking and let's figure those out this week Ben you know every time I go home, I want praise, it is done at my wife's like where have you been all day? You know why I grab something yet why I get a parade when I get home, I geologists unpack that thought a little bit. You really think it. You know what your wife you and I are just eaten bonbon. What's really think about that? You really think that's what she's been due and who do? You think picked up the kids. I guess my wife did well that's something. Maybe she's tired
and you like yeah, maybe I should get a prey when I get home, maybe we're only now. You kind of restructuring, which I think generally worth were cynical. We think about people who are narcissist. There were a few Janos adjusting and changing or Senegal. We think they just they experience of negative feedback, so their pretending to be different, because people are mounted them right but we ve done that. I mean we ve done the research waves grad student. This is Chelsea sleeper. Did this big study, but we wish to set a huge number of people narcissistic and said Joe problems been antagonistic. This you're antagonism, your callousness, your lack of empathy. Does that cause you problems like yeah does, and they see it more than other people at least sometimes. So it's not it's different than what I thought. What I thought was you had people that don't really see that their running over everybody, but when we asked people it seems like there, where there's some awareness that yeah my egos consequent up some
These things you know, I mean I want to change, it might not be worth fixing it cause, I more important than you, but it might be something I see as a problem and if I could change it easily, I probably would so people aren't like that. Do not people narcissistic aren't site, you do not say this. You know they're not going out there. It's not like. I want to be mean to people it's like. I want to be loved. I want to be admired worshipped. You know I dont want to put a lot of energy and anyone else, but not necessarily trying to be mean all the time I wonder if many of them have started to develop the pattern. And this pattern is served them to a certain extent, and this pattern involves their perceptions. the outside world perceptions of themselves, and then these things they how themselves and this way of looking at themselves that you would cause, we define as narcissistic, but they almost look at it like a tool this, is sort of, even though its accrue to
oh allowed them to navigate the waters absolutely. I may I think you know we use the term self regulation for this sort of how, if you're, trying to pilot pilot your life yourself through the world, and how do you get ahead and what kind of self We want to bid you wanna, be sort of a promotional and confident and brash, or do you want to be quiet and a good friend you wanna be studious? How do you want to? How do you want to make yourself work? And if you find you know everybody, like well, the jerks get the girls, you know well I'm and to be kind of an arrogant jerk, and if you get a couple early successes in you start coming up with this strategy for life. my work for you for a while, but then is going to stop work That's what happens in line of probably stop when you reach a self aware woman that you actually like right now like shit right, I mean it's worked on these. dummies? Yeah? I mean I'm not, you know, I don't like it like a pot calling the kettle black situation by
I understand that transit we're we're like you guys, gonna Maybe I make a change me. I want to get married. What is also the thing is that we see it and other people that are doing well and we can imitate successful behaviour and some of that six, so behaviors people being assholes, yes and you think like maybe I have to be an asshole together, like there's mercenary those pick up artist, a little debt yeah there's some of these guys, if, like come up with these courses that they teach men had a a lot of them involve treating women like shit, nagging what they did tree them in a way that make the women not feel uncontrollably Croatia that make him slightly insecure and theirs. strategies on how do that yeah! No, I mean that this is something you see with narcissism in general and relationships of one of these allergies is most few different ones. Just game plain:
So what you can do with people as you can see, I'm really committed or wait. I'm not committed so in a relationship, theirs is what happens in a relationship. Is the person whose most committed has the least power, so if Europe, if I, dating someone? I love them a lot and she doesn't me that much an ice What do you want to do tonight and she goes I wanted, did the new. You know, I don't even know what they do anymore mark. You can't leave your house, but New romantic comedy at the theatre. Unlike sure all go, I love you Do whatever you want so because I'm more vested in the relationship I have I've got the least power. So people are narcissistic, then I'm not that invested in relationship. They get all the relationship power cuz. I got to leave you what how careless goodbye get some be harder knew so so there's a thing in relationships were by not committing you keep power, Moreover, the other person you can minute. I love you more. Do I go in and your beer beer, your game playing
their relationship. You keep power, but what you don't get from that as a committed relationship you get somebody or controlling and eventually that person's gonNa Sam out of this is bullshit you and yet a certain level resentment to absolute. Some people they ve been played with before, so they feel it. That's the only way to win this game. You gotta play back. That's the pick up. Art story and any one thing with you know if you go back to the north, in relationships, narcissistic relationships, meaning I, if I get viruses, nurses cystic. They usually start off kind of exciting and satisfying he made some either confidante. They seem like they gotta go in. I like this is cool, and so it's really exciting and then there's as normal part in relationships in our culture where it starts exciting, but then it gets more emotionally warm or carrying you like. Okay, that was fun. But what are we going to do now? Maybe we should, you know, go antiquing together, whatever
I got a cop, that's what that's literally for these old seventy serve his rider. In the end, then that is so you'd make this transition from four more of a kind of a fine sexual eyes. Energetic relationship does something more committed, ended that pursues. Our sister goes, I'm not making that transition. I was pretty Stoke just We did were I'll go, find somebody else and do it again so the problem with these relations people in our seasick as they can be really fine, but their only fund, for months and then problem starts so that so that is that is that a symptom of a narcissistic relationship of their short term, and you just go one to the next, to tat kind of that pattern of. So you get shortterm relationships because people did they get sick here,
I'm taking you out figure out and they find someone else. The newness is gone. The newness is gone your kind of over and you find somebody else or they get you and they got well. I got a chance to up my game. I can find somebody else. You know I can find somebody better. So if they find somebody better, they'll, just bail on you and find somebody and then this is where thing they do. They find someone better. They post pictures with that person on social media to let the other person. No. I dont understand that I don't I got me. I understand is one who has to throw. I guess I guess I understand it. I just dashes me you'd. I see it all the time and I go womb. I'm learning blew up without social media me to night. Imagine breakups were so bad like before. I remember like some. My first break up smells like eighteen, and thinking like God, I'm so sad, I'm so press. Imagine if I could look at instrument
and see her on the beach and a bikini because beauty the brazilian man with a bikini on himself like any approach, perfect water, like shit, you does it Bay, mobs based better just he's, got a little girl. Smugglers on looking to make shit. I know tests and resilient colors. You now for his long classic men with dogs Now they scare found a man with a thong dammit, so confident yeah, I mean that's what people going through today it makes them also wanna play that game back right, like other friends break up, and then you go to their each individual pages, and you watch them like tat, many each other with other photos of other people. and they all seem to want to go on vacation almost immediately. They wanted,
you too, like we want to be in Hawaii and they put out bacon out with drinks wearing stomach. tat might be watch out with this. It really is being floating hearts with those little filters. It's weird torture games had people do play with each other. I haven't studied there. I don't know anyone who has yet I'm sure I'm sure they have, but I haven't seen it and I want to know- because it's very interesting is social media just a comparison. being alone is so devastating to people in jobs and AIDS book is fantastic about that. The calmly and may I just you really be concerned and you know me in particular, have to young daughters- and I think about it quite a bit about them dealing with this comparison thing and it's that, but the those same we're talking about the breakup thing. I imagine that's another level on top of that, because here some you like massively, can
do you're in love with them. You say I rejected and then rejected you or something went wrong, and here they are having the time of their life in here you are depressed, larger Oh, I mean it is that that social comparison that fear of missing out is the other one that gets really bad. Would like all the friends with the lake at the party this weekend, and I was home, you know, and it just it's brutal, it? Is I've seen you know that the social media, like what we ve looked at, looks like what we're senior big spikes and depression. These kids and and cutting and self harm and other others things those it is so suicide another round yes, suicides going up and what I've mice Santos, social media. This is sense. It's not like. I know good paper on this, but my senses when it started. It was really easy for people on a great deal for narcissism and then the kid started feeling so much pressure like what I say with
My daughter and social media is as much exposures. Nineteen thirty's movie star the year in year out there all the time, that's a good way to look at it. You get celebrity problems, narcissism, but body Dysmorphia. You know those people go to you go to the plastic surgeons now and that you know you get a nose job. So you look better in yourself because I'm his nose is there distorted from where they hold their cameras and she get those and I noticed the kid started going from Instagram too, like than they ever fake, Instagram account Finster grammars, then they went to Snapchat chat cause. It was less pressure. Is the things went away and they could be room sillier? Then they moved to tick tock. Where I am what the heck didn't answer, it is dad's, I kind of filling Tik Tok might be the best of all them terms or the health right you're, not just can sit around having fun. Like my twelve year old does the tick tock and she just like bouncing around with their friends
telling them that our system to make yourself is seems more silly childish, and so it almost seems like there's so much pressure for those kids. They my created to doing silly dances on Tik Tok. None of this is true a distant. He doesn't like me. They're like Facebook is, most narcissistic in terms of expressing opinions, Instagram is the most narcissistic in terms of expressing your image then, and there Does the manipulation of those voting now some people just ridiculous the shrinking their ways increasingly his face. up in said that no there's somebody Tom it face tuning vase tyranny and yeah. That's heard tell me this is the new that you face turned look better mothers, Yonder's Arabs, it'll turn you into adult totally different person. You know like theirs: now to turn me into a girl and my ten year old thought, it was let s take a picture of me and run it through this up and also what is that and she's I
you, she ran through this job and it turn me into a pretty girl. She do it again This picture is a side by side is most ridiculous thing ever because it's actually me, and one of them is me and one of his me as a girl, and these girls are the growing up that have to deal with this shit. This is you don't know what anybody looks like, but you know what you look like ceiling yourself in the mirror, and then you look at this. Everyone african version of this shit withheld is gonna find it. So it was interesting about this. I mean the lots interesting but two questions. I ask what kind of esteem you getting from putting out fake pictures play KU getting status by it's working. I don't think you really do get anything. I think you think you're going to get something, but it never really comes. I think you just you're doing it based on the premise that you're going to develop a steam. You know- and
yeah. There's a famous Chloe car dashing picture where she just she adjusted so many things that it became this thing that people were sharing just because so preposterous because it literally nothing like her. So so many people thought it was hilarious. They were just sending it back and forth like what the fuck is you doing just fine. This pictures taken. ok. You got an alpine there. I haven't attack, but the This photo is like a preposterous photo costs No one knows what she actually looks like and then you look at this picture is like this perfect woman and now my who is that, unlike in the end, our needs it, she wrote low station under bitches skin, like that. he's doing it. But everyone knows this is worth crazy. Like everyone knows, you don't look like that. You're, a famous person, it's not like she's, taking a photo and like hey, here's what I look like here's, my selfie. What do you look like?
she says you dial you like she's, really hot. If, if she sent you picture and then you went to go meet her at the mall he be like. Who are you? Ok, whatever yeah, who are you you're? Not this person like this is different human, but by writing under bitches scan like it exposes. Mentality of these things. You're doing it to make people feel bad about what they look like, and this is so face tune in Photoshop that literally she forgot to add. One of the sides of the changed she was wearing filtering that China is one of them has disappeared because it's been absorbed in this filter but it still working to get people upset because of her attractive, Is it disturbs me how dumb people are, and it's not
just that it gets. People upset that of her attractiveness, but also people who think it looks really good. So I'm it I mean it's so what if I said, people are dumb, but people have a problem discounting for other explanations. So if I said hey I'm doing this, and this is me, and you go well. This is U obvious but I gotta remember, this is Photoshop, but ninety nine percent of time there's no photoshop so hard for me to discount the Photoshop even though I know you're photoshopped, some years old studies like this in the sixtys we have people like with like with bright brainwashing in North Korea, where they have people. You read a statement like, I think the Americans, awful or whatever and people, even though they know their under duress will still sorted think they believe it right, and I wonder for something like that here, like this is fake but you're still hot or maybe just maybe it's like man, you have such a dish. I don't know well people
men in general are really dumb right. We look at fake boobs and we go wow. She's got nice boobs, even though you know their fake, like they can be round like soccer ball right last. Use is something about it. Is it like your brain and we go that's hot it. We don't oh wow disturbing our latest reflection right, yet very little. We just go with the good part. Right going like right. The sexual ape part right of the feeling right, yeah, so If you do that with it, I don't know, I'm just very interesting cuz and then what happens if you're grown up in a world where, like half the images, you know we're just fake a lot of the image that you see of people on Instagram have been fucked with a lot No, what the number is, but it's a lot- and I, when I put this vote, up on my instagram, I got messages from friends of mine that are girls. They go and what are they I would say, as I I use filters, but fuck, that's crazy, somewhat wow.
what you use filters, but that's what, by using filters and so on, girls, like very pretty, which is even more insane like. Why would you use filters if you're pretty, like you you're the the genetic lottery in terms of facial features, but you want everything to be smooth You are worthy no pours and yet whistle filters going, for I mean is it: why did the filter Is it a certain walk or is it just to get ready on Titan it up and make you look younger and smear bride? Perfect it submitted like you know. If you do this and scrub you see those lines, your skin. Some people don't want to see any of that because they that a line in the skin or weirdness to the facial structure is is negative and eat all really It boils down to breeding choice. I mean that's what it is like that the geometry of your face yet like that Jaws wider. Your eyes are a good distance. Apart your cheeks ersatz eyes, you could be a good breeding
the media is guided fight. Our efficiency at adds pretty tweet. It is where super weird, when you look at these images when you'd know that their photoshop like this in other fixed or if you go to the interim thing, there's a little explore section where you just look at random people never seen before. I found this one lady who all of her pictures made her Levite cartoon like all of them, I she had like a filter that was maiden Russia than by lawyers. Aren't I don't think so, like this reserve, it's hard to know what she really looks like, because all over filters to the desk, and her face was so bizarrely smoothed out that she looked animated. They it didn't. It look they are on Canada. Like she added I get cheap phone and then she ran through these cheap filters and, like this was her face in life sometimes have stars all around her face, and sometimes she'd have like you know like it was weird I I wish
I mean like. I know we ve done the work looking at people, more nurses, cystic, more grandiose, don't use as many filters because they dislike they think they look so good. They don't worry about it as much. The people are vulnerable. We noticed using more filters. but I don't know what you're talking about a strategic. You know you strategically trying to get more attention or is this like us. Is it a fashion? I just don't know what the filters are supposed to do. Well, I think it's preparing us for artificial reality. That's it. I think I think it's preparedness for virtual reality, because You know there is already virtual reality games. We could go in like giving no sandboxes heroes. Who do the israeli really? The are place go to the actually have one here in Austin. What the other day and you put on these vs goggles inhabiting feedback, vast and then you're. A different thing inside game. He could be like a pirate or in this one game played we're robots, you're gonna be put down on a beautiful person, and it's gonna be crude at first
Eventually, it's going to mimic the motion in the look of an actual person and we're going to become accustomed to it. So if you don't like what you look like, you can go, be you know some oh well from the nineteen sixties eager be perfect, and you can do that inside this video game. I think that's going to be, I think, whether through augmented reality through glasses, virtual reality, but one of those things is gonna become real. I I agree I just don't know why it's taken so long because I went into one of our labs these years ago and tried in a cave. You know it virtual reality. They have the this answer so they know where you're going and it was really crude and others like. Oh, my god, is amazing how real this is amazing, standing over pet now I come die of his great, So we did a study we made people like I faked, Kim Kardashian, who made these avatars to deceive, and it's so crude at this point
and then I've seen some of the stuff I'm like this is gonna. Take over the world is once you can just a dial in immersed in this, and then you started daft in these different avatars in them. Whether those Didier personality do become that person. When you do it, you have what we call simulation it does. You know if you have an avatar of a fighter debate, a more aggressive or do I do the opposite. Bees and trotted do not act like MIKE Tyson. It's gonna be so interesting, but GAD scared, the hell out of me. You think we're just a few decades away from not recognise normal life anymore. I think we pass that about five years and might be right. You may be right now what someone lives with or works with in a narcissist like what, if your person, and you say, you're in an office. You know you work for a pr firm or something like that. Your boss is a narcissist and you is there a way
you can explain to a narcissist that they are a narcissist awake and help them Wouldn't do that general. I wouldn't go and sort of. If it's my boss, I went confront them about like I just because you get so the promise of reason, artistic and you confront them. You get you can get reactions like aggressive classic formula for aggression. Aggression is you take some these narcissistic and you say you sock say you can't do that. You can't have that So what do you do? A visit to see your company in your work, yeah ladder and your boss is an artist, so you have to protect yourself like because what happens as you might get manipulated or lied about it. We have to keep records of everything. Make sure thanks above board, and then, if you, if you do not want to manipulate somebody like that, you you kind of suck up to now people. Do it and you see in these corporations the people in our these suck up these kind of
yes, man or yes, women that followed that round table trump right, well I mean it I soon as they want people that work around him, because he fires or body else. I assume that's what those guys do. You know I mean that's so so one of the things you can have happen is you can just become a kind of a single fantasy. You know of a of inertia, narcissistic boss, but I dont think that's when anyone want to do now, you rumbling lamprey on the bar gash, exactly I just that you just gotta, following our biggest lamb rate on that bab. So that's it. That's a strategy to get through life. If you want recommended, but usually usually the other thing is, if somebody's that narcissistic there's, usually they ve done it to you and indebted to a bunch of people, whatever their doing so find allies find
Drank the numbers figure what's goin on keep records, make sure that persons I crossed in any lines if they cross it lines, got hr, don't put yourself in a position we can get exploited. You know be careful about trusting that kind of thing and if you're nice to somebody like that, they might like you and if you criticise- and they like you ass. So its doubts were that conflict comes in tat, a real strategy that I'm sorry it's worth, imagined myself being in an office work for someone that go fuck. This now I mean usually just want to get the hell out of here s. The problem or you try to get the person promoted, I'm it is what happens, we're alive. It's rather than promote it out. You get a better behest people through a lot. I get it through a lot horrible airs. Try to get them promoted out, get a move on to a better guys you this year, so good. Let's, you know wider. If you can usually be the king of yeah, maybe over, and you know that you should move to Texas,
What what do you think about psychedelic for people with personality disorders is that's? Why. open question. I can give you a very long answer. If you don't mind, I don't want it all our so there is this explosion and psychedelic research and new nominate? So the history was psychedelic medicine to really popular and fortys and fifty's early sixties? and now famously build w would aim, is to promote and propose proponent valets d to induce mystical experience because inducing MR experience seem to be a way of getting people passed, alcoholism. So there's a lot of interesting when it all got shut down and seventys it all kind of one underground people use them it may for a while, and then they found out about that said there is no benefit, and so they shut it down.
And so we're in this weird place now word the researchers coming back people in it these research centres are really interested in empty. I may and sell aside then for treatment. Their focusing on PTSD. You know a lot of trauma therapy in their pope focused on couples therapy those him to be a couple, big ones, and so so those treatments are going on. The other thing that's going on people doing she medicines. So people are going to you now to two customary. or Peru. Primarily to do, I was gonna watch whom argue San Pedro ended there doing those bridge. Freedom because their illegal in the? U S and they're, trying to heal of a student Brandon wise who should get all credit for this. Who is interested in studying psychedelic?
several years ago has been pie for years, and so we we're interested in measuring personality change and psychedelic use, and so what we shall do, what we did is went down to measure people on some of these centres and measure the personality before going down. You know before it using the psychedelic so weak after than a follow up a three month, follow up looking at personality changes. And also getting peer report to personality. So not just measuring their personality bits and I get a friend to see if, if their friend seizure personalities changed because easy to get people to stay there personally change, but you want to confirm it with appear to make sure it's legit, so we ve been working on the plant medicine side of this, which is a whole different baggy tricks than the other psychedelic, so
and long story short what brandons dissertation found. Was that people using the Iowa had a big decrease in what we call the rod assess and which is his personality trade, the destitute society and depression and hostility. So that we found a big drop in that So then I was talking about like a week or two ago MIKE I'm goin on Joe Rogan Man, where he created Hut for nurses does makes do it I'll check it out for yourself.
branded, send me the data on narcissism a couple days ago. This is just fresh. This is not science, I mean their scientific data, but it needs to be right now, but just talkin, but what it looks like is. It looks like that the more extroverted piece of narcissism wasn't changing going down. If anything, it was going up a little bit more like drive. The the piece that had to do with vulnerability in security was improving, so that seem to be getting better. But we had a measurement of entitlement and that study like a sense of entitlement and that didn't seem to change real yeah, which I thought I thought I would change so where the biggest acts It seems to be. Is this broader sense of like depression, anxiety, neurotic says more than then sort of entitlement, at least in this? This is just a tech zealous from
The weakness seems to have been here. He asked, but the strength seems to me maybe have been enhanced still bit yeah yeah for some people, that's not good yeah, but I'm guessing for the people. You know that so when started getting when I first got interested in the end. This, like a delicate the research, had looked at a trait. We call openness to experience and openness. Is it as a broad trade, thus do with creativity in philosophy and as that x in interest, and so what they found in this research at Hopkins of people? Doing so aside, any mushrooms reported there open getting up increasing, so I thought well do we do. I was people are gonna, get super open after that. turns out tat. People who go down and drink Iowa are already pretty open to start with, so it really almost like a screen like your only getting,
people that are already pretty curious, open creative people that are going to do it ran on healthy user bias. It the buyer, so we got a selection bias. I think so. really seen that, and so I don't think the people the wrist down. There is really I mean it could be a risk of Vigo inflation. I wouldn't be I'm not so concerned about it. More what thou? What's going on as it seems to be trauma? That's he held a little Ben I'm. This is so this stuff is so intense, so and then so I started you know where I started, trying to figure this out a little bed. I thought why you just go: asked the Shopman you now because the village, this historic so the first guy study. Nurse was a guy named Havelock Alice. Who is this british and maybe australian back and really frustrated that british sex all adjust ex all exiled. We started studying narcissism because, like self pleasure in like self love and this
same guy very curious duty also went to the south the West United States in the late eighteen, hundreds and discover them eating piety, so he brought parity back to Britain and gave it a bunch of friends and wrote the first scientific article on pay, odious, called like Samir, like that of artificial fantasy or something really cool And he wrote this paper and he's like well, we did it, we felt sick and- and we turned the light sand and pretty soon we are currently using at the way the Indians did it, and I thought Well, maybe you should just ask them up before you start their sacred plan, your conversation or do and what is the sacred plan? And so you know Brandon met with people, and I've talked to people do this. What do you think's going on? You know how to use it causes outsider. I'm like I just think of the brain becoming plastic and the new pathways developing was set
metaphor and when I talk to the people down there, they're saying this is really about healing trauma and they see a lot of these negative energies in their twenty clean. These end Jesus you and it's really. It's like it very much a healing thing, but what they are talking about is spiritual and when I do a psychology and its there's a bridge between the two that's hard to take cross. If that makes sense, so I can understand the spiritual practice down there, but it's hard to talk about then psychology terms, so I can understand the personality process, but it's hard under talk about then spiritual terms, if that makes sense for colleagues to different disciplines and if you're not cruel young, its heart, which is while the people do in research, It's like a delicate or using neuroscience when you, when you're, comparing how people come in versus go out, but it sounds like this relatively little data and it's kind of being
accumulated in a lot of it is guesswork. It is very little data. When I do a personality study, I want a sample of a couple hundred people like to under people my study to fifty because I'll give you add two hundred fifty people there were diagnosed with some version of narcissistic personality disorder or narcissism ass. You would want to see them for a while, before you sent them down their villages. If I gave you like, I really want to do this day for real. I mean you do what you'd have to do: a placebo, controlled seed after having you'd have to ever. You know you Moluccas, set up in your shopman and need active one condition where their drinking this awful stuff- that's bad espresso, but it's not Iowa and the their condition they drink. The Iowa see aft ever placebo, controlled trial, one. How many people would trip ball, on the policy, while there, they ve done this in people they they sent
it's real, but I dont think day trip balls. I don't know. I mean people say there, but I'm like really it's hard ruin. People have expectations of inexperience and then they Vince themselves there having that experience when the psychedelic work. You know it always comes back to set and setting mindset and setting, and one of your the jungle and you're drinking a placebo right and you ve come in there and you ve been working on your intention and you ve guided diet beheaded time, your diet in your their something's gonna happen. You know, I mean you could go down there and do a ceremony, but it's very hard for me to imagine somebody having the same experience they would with Haiku Oscar their mind. People report things like that, but I just I don't know, but that's how you do it right? You do apply
He bore controlled trial, so they do these trials with Iowa. Ask in Brazil, where they have you: no have you drink a cup Iowa scary CUP of tea. The tastes like I was gonna. Put you in the scanner like FM our eye. The prom with those trials, though, is you don't have the whole she Monica facts phase out and setting you dont send set in, and so the work we are doing is really interested in the whole chemin process. But you can't say well the molecule of sodium t. It's. I ll ask it: the process. One of these it comes out of the heavy psychedelic, whether it's suicide ban or DM two, any the other ones. Ego death like there's something happens to you were the ego did gets diminished, for me. Maybe the most profound one was five MEO Dmt. That was a very heavy ego death experience, because, if it makes you feel like you, you didn't exist for awhile its little. It lacks the visuals of n n d empty and you, if you feel like you're litter,
only a molecule in the center of the universe, like you are a part of everything and nothing about. You is in even remotely significant. Here is a part and then, when you come back to it, you feel like you egos, scrambling to put its pants back on it yeah like what does and then you can feel you can feel your ego. China regain control situation, unlike brushing itself. and I remember making this concerted effort to try to grasp where, where my mind was when I came out of it in and before the eagle come back like to try to recognise, like What is it I was thinking? My came back and even the way I talk like I'm sick things a I'm saying things them to sound intelligent, not just because I'm run it a thought clearly, but I want people think I'm smart. I don't be a want peace,
wanted to come, although, like the way that sounded again, there was a smooth sounding sentence. You know, or if not smart least, that I'm interesting to listen to and also there is like a trick to who even formulating sentences that you're not just expressing yourself your expressing yourself with tension of pleasing or impressing others. There was real, oh, I was real where of that, maybe for when the first time clearly in my life, as are all that's kind of gross, maybe think about it. The faintness yeah, it's grosbeak fake they are, not just vagueness, but like did the tension Heine that it. wasn't it entirely pure now, and I was thinking that that death The ego I give him anything that is haunting Our assistance and not a control ego- it's like this is part of it may be. That would be an effective fair.
B, but maybe would have to be done over a period of multiple sessions side. I have some questions because I haven't tried five anyhow and- and this is so you have more ego, like you just molecule materialise? I felt like I fucked up right when I did it elsewhere. God I'm dead, we really more than any other psychedelic, because he does it You don't see anything it s. All white you're gone everything's gone, nothing you you feel like you got shot through a cat, and to the middle of everything and you get there's a weird. Sense that we have a guess, because a gravity worry. You feel the floor, underneath you and say get a sense. It that's down that this is up and that that's left that's right. When I did five m me- I didn't have any feeling like that- was that was no longer real and instead it was like down, was infinite up, was infinite
left and right were infinite and you didn't, just a new or, as I broke down the barriers, like all the four, of being a human, whether its blood tissue bone personality breath everything just went down the cells and then went to the Adams and then those I'm sorry out of the soup of atoms air all around you did so I've got a million questions were asked to. Did you feel there is a message other than what you told me did you feel There is a spiritual voice. There is something there is just boom boom, just boom. It was different in Andy empty the duty that you experience and I was good I've felt entities of communication felt intelligence. I've been mark and jeered at laugh, dad and shown love and shown beautiful things. didn't feel any of that in in five mythology. Five orthodoxy deity was really it's. It's Morse.
It's a stronger, psychedelic experience. Apparently you know our grounds grand programme, then than deep, regular DM two years. So more potent did you find you benefited from that? Maybe I did it twice. I think I think one thing I did get out of it was that realisation that The ego really does have a grasp on what you're doing all the time, even if you dont think it does and sometimes is probably some benefit in terms of your performance in certain things with that desire to do well desire to communicate and impressive way like others. There some benefit that clearly and for me, as a personal, communicates professionally his promise of benefit that but also the stark contrast of how preposterous that sea and when you are broken down to atoms and shit,
to the center of the universe and you realize you're just a part of some, weird, cosmic soup, Your literally made a start asked in theirs is all this weirdness to it. But there was no me that was most disturbing in the other dm two experiences that have had there's a me. Is me going but together, don't freak out Kieva together forgot. Let it happen let ago does all that I internal dialogue on live. While there was none didn't exist. Anymore has gone. Shore fear it does I mean you're. Is fun like it, I'm gonna wanna, do it just goes its like come on. I gotta try that by attended and enjoy terrorists we cannot deny joy that that version they didn't do that that's not a good recommendation that, on your cut out did the site
Dela ran on my own are ones that are from Mckenna brothers, as is not good yeah. I so when people talk about ego death, so this is such a great question because, like narcissism is ego, but this sort of one way to have ego, and easy to see. Go is partly. Why study it's kind of entertaining big and you can have you go the tall about fear, you know what you're just scared the time- and you know so, ego does a lot of things, scientist narcissism, but what your time as like foundation lay like how do you get to that core of bean and they talk about ego death? psychedelic community and I started. We use their scales to measure three: have instruments to measure ego death than I've looked at them and measured em, and seems like people are really they mean that different ways. So what you're talking when you tell me like, I was blown, ended the acoustic effort. Quantum feels they did. Nothing does make themselves like you.
the death. It sounded felt like their actual alley: ass, lung and debt yeah that I was scarce part about, as I felt like. Oh my god, I really fucked up. I'm TED yeah go death. To me sounds like ego death, their stuff that happens on I Alaska, where you'd get eaten alive and you feel like you're dying. Your bones are scattered through the wilderness, and that seems like ego death. You know people have experiences like that and then there's experiences people talk about, like you know, is looking at the ocean. I just kind of drifted off into nothingness. Sir, a kind of just drifted away like sounds like you just go little high in Berlin has got. It sounds like napping here I mean like what you're tell. I tell you about eager dead verses. Like you, I just contacts and mushrooms and looked at the sunset and my ego and in that, but in the questionnaires its it do not it's hard to distinguish between those, because we just had not a lot of people of experts
go down. Think in some of them like we're talking about towns, being by the ocean where people are chill because you're just confirmed, did by the majesty of the ocean this thing about these majestic experience Is there so overwhelmingly powerful that they just put you in Czech likes ending next to an elephant he's eager straw person. I got a bad mother, Fucker EAST, annexed to elevate likes it just put it in perspective when you feel it has enormous massive animal. That's like it didn't. It leaves no doubt that this thing is infinitely more powerful than you there's something about the psychedelic experience that that is well like it is so mine, blowing the it for worse. You sort of recalibrate you're significance, so here
Is the problem with somebody like me doing? This kind of work is with the big side effect of a mean one of the big side effects of Iowa Scots iced I studied this. Could I find it fascinating bed? I dont recommended to people, because the side effects are religious, that those these drugs are and in the agenda that kind of guide awakening, and you start I started doing this work and, unlike wholly, should this stuff's real and it goes. It gets very hard. When you see some of the spiritual stuff happens to go back and go out just fake. What do you mean by the side? Effects are alleged, meaning did did if you you know they ve done. These big surveys of people taken Dm Tee and they see aliens they see entities and when doing it. You know when you doing it in the shamanic context, contacts that that the medicine itself has its spirit.
Ayahuasca or San Pedro BO combo. Al divisionary medicines have their own entities and they open you up. So these entities go in and then the shaman of controlling the space to make sure the bad end of these don't get in and the good end of these come in, and you know clean out the bad entities and stuff, and so they're working on this deserves spiritual round that they see very clearly. You know they see it, but it's very hard free. You can really see it from the outside it s very hard to talk about psychologically raw meat. I dont believe a good language for it. So you do this stuff and you start experiencing entities, and you know what It makes sense that what do I call those choices, the collective unconscious? It seems to me that the only way people understand what you're talking about as if they have experienced it themselves- Ghana's Alike canal, because you can talk to this about this- to people that don't many psychedelic experience they just seen,
you're alone right, that's what time. But it's like him, but if you talk to it to someone has been there, I or they look. Ok yeah yes in the night and then what No, I mean so I guess what I'm saying is. My concern is, is a scientist? Is I started work you like Hung out in a lot of indigenous cultures, I've travel with it. Official did surf. I travel, I just been just been a lot of places, sinhala cool stuff so I start working in this in the shambolic context and seem what's going on, and I think for me, I'm like there's something real here and it's something powerful and these guys, no medicine, that we don't know, and it's a little frightening that I dont have language, for it will there's an ego. We talked about ego, there's that there is a perception that the West has that we have the best answers. Yet,
I think we do. I think we can suck, but their great, comparison. Some cultures all yet exists in the world, but then, when you deal with these cultures that have this mastery of this mystical medicine ass. All the sudden you like maybe were full of shit man, maybe there's another layer of things that we're just not so good at it. Maybe we're really good at these certain limited problems that we nailed enemy, gotta egos like all. We can solve all the problem right. It's like someone, who's really good at playing chess, and they have this understanding of chess and they're really get a chest, and so they think well. Obviously I superior cuz, I'm chess, but then there around someone is in a man. Jim Gymnast and they like a wait. A minute.
And do that I've spent all my time doing this yeah. But I didn't learn that and I thought that this was superior and then I'm watching you do the uneven bars and fly through the air and land of the bounds beam, and I can't do that. Yes, in a whole different plain of exhaust Lear experiencing western life with traffic and internet access in all these different things, and we ve got really good out there. So we think that this is the way to live, because I can send you an email send me an email and you're in the jungle in you, gotta leaf in your hand, that's my ass. His fever fools eaten bananas, when you go there and you see what they can do with their plant medicine and you experience what there say when they're playing their songs, and you realize the songs actually guiding this. Academic experience like oh so there very, very sophisticated in a world that I don't even have any information about whatsoever. Yes and the train
is so different. So for me to get a phd, I find a mentor. I study a topic I studied for several years. and by five years, I'm able to produce knowledge on my own to find goad right research. That means your phd you're able to produce new knowledge If I'm in the jungle- and I want to study Iowa Oscar, I don't read a bunch of books into a study I sit and by myself in a hot by the water and I drink, it unites drink a little bit and I die you know I do a diet and I'll. I I sit with this medicine for month or whatever the period of time is for months. I understand the medicine yo. You sit with tobacco in and study it for months, and you understand how to back works in you understand better anyone such ITALY. We have learnt a valid. What do you do it? Tobacco well like, like my Sherman, lotta shamans, you guys are tobacco is like a master plan, and so when they die it, they don't drink. Those smoke they'll do like new. You know like to what
What is the active ingredient in the nicotine or the tobacco gets the nicotine that day so that I've heard the term Machu, but like John tobacco they may use, and I've heard it's a very powerful master. Medicine of it is in all the natives load tobacco smoke. people's face yeah they put tobacco, but they also use it with a makeup powder, like a snuff snuff and they blow through a tube at your house. You kind of put. I don't know why you put your hands up, you just inhale and it shoot it up your nose. It's a very potent form. They have this very powerful chewing tobacco with it, take a huge thing and make it really small and you chew it. I think that it works with the Ayahuasca two, mayo, but I'd this sort out of my right expertise area, but I know it's a very important medicine for them. So then you train worth any use it survive. If I was doing this
money I and I had trained with tobacco. I would use that tobacco to help me in the ceremony said. Tobacco would be like ally for me and do they specifically tar certain aspects of people's personalities when they go on these experiences. Does anybody? That or do they just give you a trip in what you find you here. You are supposed to find. or you just silent, have you fine and deal with it so much,
I understand in this suggests talking to people who do this and then made a he might have done resource, but not the lifetime of work is that their looking for energy is so very much it's like you see these negative energies in your working on em. I mean you, the idea that you have a soul, sole body, a causal body of what is in an indian it Nanda, my accoucheur, I don't know the kind of bliss body and that's where these problems happen, sort of get damage there is this karmic damage in these psychic for more as a kind of it attaching to widen, making sense like illogically and they're kind of going in and go get goods get these
offer you, let's get you your soul clean soon, do it again, but that's the kind of stuff there scene is not really working with psychology, but you go in there. You know with an intention set and setting Sega like I want to be more loving. I went to heal this pain. I wanna be a better dad. You know men the work I do is I started we better Para. Twenty that acumen but people are doing stuff like that, but it isn't like going to psychology. Well, how is your child? How are you behaviour? Should I do in any of that? It's just very just kind of very I guess, uncharted medicine in some of the discussions are having down. There are due frame it more in terms of a western framed. You interpret, it do not interpret it for people, I mean there's third, their kind it. It sounds to me like their developing a hybrid system. That's a little bit West
bad sort of foundational. You know I d seen does because of demand Leon, western people demanding some structure, to whom I didn't sell, good or bad, though I don't doubt you know everything changes I mean it just that's the way. You know these systems just kind of cycle around and They learned at people. They should be about learned it from another group in a private earned it from the Incas Povey changed and then the westerners get down there and it changes and- and probably some westerners get down there in private this, where they do with tobacco, ragged, try to strip it out and Saladin as due also to Westerner staff, but
What what what did you mean when you're saying that it's more like religion will, when you're talkin about the experience that its meaning, that, when you're dealing with when you're done? If I go to Johns Hopkins and take synthetic cell aside and I'll, have a psychedelic experience, I'm using synthetic suicide, and so I'm not gonna throw up? I'm not gonna feel sick. I'm just gonna sit there and put something of my head and relax and that's can be my experience. I go into do plant medicine, I'm going to take up a medicine like I was go, it's gonna be in its natural form. I made a fierce hick, I'm gonna, hopefully throw up or diarrhea diarrhoea purge in that purchase? Super important, that's like part of the healing process, is purging to its different and then the entity in Iowa Ask is gonna. Hear me the spear
If I ask is like a spirit, is going to do the work along with the singing of the of the Shopman, so there's a spiritual energy that supposed to be the active agent in here that we don't believe words for this and in psych I mean call Young talked about this stuff, but in a hundred years psychologists been baby s. We just don't have good language for this kind of thing, so the concern is mean people that live one like I live in this very western kind of world and then you go and see that something else you got wholly crap how'd. You come back. You know it's hard for people, not if Disco do the normal psychedelic surgeon of spiritual aspect. You could take em, you don't throw up, and maybe you have the same healing you don't to have all those questions. You know, that's the risk when I wish there was a way where we could bring that to America and have people who were licensed professionals if there was a guest germanic research bore.
Yes and in earlier years, passed a bar of out of a and mean I mean I think, there's probably some beauty in going to these calls here's, where everything is, as it's been for thousands and thousands of years, we don't have any control over it, but has a lot of you, but I don't wanna go the jungle no now, and I think you are, I think, what's gonna happen, is it going to be your first fathers all the normal psychiatric medicines. Get rid of those benefits? If those who work in your try may be empty, may more and you're not gonna get the ego death with India. May I M just a little bit of red tape. Well, what I seen in the lead it I'm not! I'm not I go not man, I'm undeceived, dad reminded me figure I was like out, but the literature It is usually that the mescaline base drugs or empty a maid, don't get the profound ego death like you would with like five emmi I'll write. You were saying so their little
or gentle, so you probably won't be a profound and so be less less risk is so Simon can be a little crazier. I think so. Probably people do those, but if some people that are lower more intrepid might want to go to the jungle, it's more intense is more interesting. Is pike and bid hobby, the more open p. But more curious, it so funny as an adult as a person. It seems like. Were you through this structuring process from the time your baby to the time you're an adult and any kind of deal with what state you're, mine and personality or add, and then each I do some repair work and, while you to fry Do this repair work you're dealing with these underlining structures that are big it again, stood in your your body in your mind for decade upon decade and they ve car of these very deep paths of just yeah
you're used to things here used to the way you are and you it's very difficult for people to change? I think it's one of them reasons why we ve had a cynical approach to people who are narcissist or people with eager problems at that. To your forever, and I now don't you know who you are twenty years ago who yard today, and that we will be twenty years now period right that you're fucked so last area, because these passers cut so deeply. So it makes me think your TIM Ferris
I use down here. He's he's done a may he's, given all this money, the maps and done he's been huge support to psychedelic research, amazing, what he's he's done and- and he talks about- uses the metaphor of clay. You know that you're you're kind of your your life is grooves. You have these clay kind of group in clay, and this is how you act him with the psychic, delicate tourism is loosen up and allow you to put a new grooves. If you want, I think that metaphors good the people it and Imperial College and suffer so much as a snow globe. Metaphor like you, know the snow, globes com and then you shake it up and saying
Alex is shaken it up and allow the snow to fall differently. I sometimes think of those glad my metaphors always sock, but think of those they do those glass animals and vanished. You know that you have like your glass elephant with all these spears stuck in you from life. You know you decide everything you ve done just get these spears, jabbed emu and the psychedelic. Allow those you this kind of heat up and pull some of those out and in real a bit so, but that metaphor of this psychedelic opening up these channels and allow you to work, is, I think, a powerful metaphor, because it's what happens? also tells you. If you're doing this stuff have frickin professional with you and don't do it at home or a man might do if you wanted official but its date. This is dangerous, powerful medicine and if you're gonna be crafting here psyche, you want people with you that know what they're doing that. People, we set out to write this book. We should talk about this. our services, we have got to you oppose yet I God with
right after we asked the reduced by. But what was your intention where's your intention to sort of aluminum these issues for people to help them guide their own way through it and find out was to oh they have, or just a does, diagnose it and describe it as a condition. I I've been study, narcissism for probably twenty five. Thirty years has been that long to school, they started doing grad school and I have a whole bunch of implicit or tacit knowledge. Like I just know a lot, that's not written down and I've got I get it put this all down so anybody wants to figure. Narses can grab this, read it and get caught to know what's going on, and then they can go figure out what they want from there. So I wrote it a bit like a tool for people really want understand it. and then change. I'm not so. I dont like telling people what to do
how do you get your dollar easygoing? I, as a town like man, you gotta find your own journey. You don't apply if you aren't adventure, fuck, I'm doing my best. I get a you're doing your bursley, you gotta do your best to vat, rabbit like here the tools and then I wrote the book, and I try to explain like here so personnel bodyworks. I try to explain a little bit like here's, how we assess how we assess personality, so you don't be an idiot and think a bunch of tests online like I try to explain to people how this thing works in simple terms, I don't know if it worked as my effort, you have hopes gadgets, unlike what the hell, and dimensional ufos. Where did that mentions I cant figure this out. Well, mean even the phrase interventional Ufos us ever been defined. I know, but don't people talk about this later, but our kinds of worship, riders, like but who's gonna, know I'm like general, and I gotta figure this out. I like that what the hell's that entered a mention of what's wrong place. I have no idea. That's even though my might be total nonsense,
Certainly my total nonsense. I just wonder whether it is well. I think women people say that they're just grasping at straws like theirs, and if you, could say for sure this is an inter dimensional alien life form wow, you would do it the most amazing peer reviewed paper ever right, Why not? In order to say that you would have to have some real data, you have to be demonstrate you'd have to be will show how this is provable either with some sort of mathematics or some such kind of evidence. Something right. You can't just say it's an inner dimensional ufo, but people do say things. So that's that's what it is. Somebody just said: that's what it is one is things we target narcissism, an ego one. I think that people do they. They do like to pretend that they are special, and this is one of the reasons why I am so very, very sceptical about personal psyche.
experiences, personal UFO experiences, personal experiences with big foot or whenever it is because it instantaneously makes you more significant than you are without those experiences. So your person that has been abducted by phone. I'm not saying the people have it. If people have had that experience, may I have no idea what you're experience has been, but If you are full of shit you say you have been abducted by you will follow? You are all the magical instantly more interesting, yeah, instant, yeah instantly your info more fascinating. Your interesting, your you in a way that no one else is because you ve experienced this God creature from another world right and they have chosen you for some strange reason: Maybe you have a particular genetic sequence: they're interested in or maybe you have been chosen,
your entire life and that's why you're so special seated, the others? A thing about this, the people wanting to be special the chosen? One by in item This lady there was me that she channels UFO from another planet and to tell me all this nonsense that other different thing she does- and I said, are you medication, and she like really really upset at me for asking. If on on, like that's a legitimate question like you're you're telling me that you are in contact and new channel a being from Other planet, you just expect me, you Saying at all. I know this sounds crazy. Yeah. I'm not saying I know this is not so instantaneous grandiose behaviour ten years like did like. I need to respect this because this is real, like I am forced in this vision where she has this knowledge, it's coming from this interstellar,
time travelling entity or whatever the fuck. It is in the communicates that, as it is type of mental disorder, and this is not discounting. actual real extraterrestrial experiences, because they very well, maybe real. I don't. If you're talking about unique experiences, novel unique experiences that you haven't had How do you know you don't know it's like if you are trying to describe, I ask it to someone who had never experience you like that for shit. But then, if you took the Iowa, You don't owe me that could be the exact same. in terms of you have abduction or you have experiences in closing counters. I don't know, but I do now that there's something about expressing that you have had these experiences. That makes you command respect in some weird way that I dont, like. It makes me like I'll, send your special you the chosen one. Are you really
your chancellor, you know you're you're, doing a seance you're talking to people from the great beyond your ear, channeling some to tee from four hundred million light years? Why are you really there This is bullshit because it seems bullshit, that's that's the that the problem, that is too many people that take advantage of that does this narrative that there are ufos out there that big foot is out there. I was in the woods I experienced him. He talked to me through his mind. I understood languages, Bigfoot target tux people tell about polish, or I have I mean you, I'm sure there it is. there's a nice stories out there of people that you can get kind of any kind. The of those variables bigfoot into dimensional bigfoot from another planet. Big but knows where the cameras artists, we never take pictures of em, but I do show for Cipher channel a few years back all european questions. Everything and I went into it far more
there are enthusiastic about the subjects that I came out when I came of it. I was thing and there's a lot of people at mental illness and that's what a lot of this is. I was the more thought about our more like this is just a lot of people like searching for meaning what one of things was saying, like you find a lot of unthinkable white guys. That's when you go look for you are fires or bigfoot, it seems like people been left out the dating game. They there, I'm just gonna like one scale, I'm not going to develop a wide scale, not app, and not this lifetime. That's what it s like a lot of the end of the day there not they're, not getting along, of attention, otherwise, because they wanted out what yes, they wanted and they really go out of their way to talk about these experiences and make them seem incredible, significant, whether it's a big foot experience- it's a? U S all experience. Abduction experiences encounters all these different things
It's their very rarely. Are they even remotely believable? If your purse, in his accustomed to people telling the truth yeah. This is a thing that I also found out when people lie a lot, they are not good at detecting lies in there good it recognising when other people detect their lives like someone who's like a pathological liar, they lie, that's how they make things up all the time they must lie. Themselves to go in for yeah lie? Lie lie. I think they lied to themselves as well. I dont think their lives, super brutally honest themselves and then like other people, I think it's no one wants to be a liar. So when you ve decided that you're just going to lie about things. You're, probably, instead of thinking leg aim better make this like good, you're, probably like psychologically twisted and you're fucked up. So they would tell you stories that they dont resonate. When someone like we're talking earlier about people, being like authentic and yeah sagacity resonates this this.
stores or resonated. Ah all there's no resonate, but a case will you get one does through? I talked to a lady did said she saw Bigfoot and she did not see fullest shed at all, but I think she saw a bear. So? It's a real, citing budgets. Amiss bears walkin see all the time and black bears walk on too all the time and she saw this thing and she was in the Pacific North West, which of you ve, ever been up there in the forests. Insanely wooded its land seeking gets like Q tips like you buy a box, acute upsets, other trees are stack next to each other, and she saw this thing walking through the woods on its hind legs, and I bet it was about. A better was blackbirds going up there, but it was a bear that had a hurt, paw or something and was just walk on two legs: they do it all the time there's, a lot of video of black their walk on two legs. I am today of the foot like the abominable snow. And yet they think is a bear to Canadian could restore yeah. I had been I've, never seen a big foot. I waited in a wolf terrain,
Well, have you really soon? I saw watering that was once in my whole life because I'm a guide I was with whose, like, oh, my god, it's all over answer crazed, because I know you never see him. The plate rare, but if I saw wove rain, had never come close to a big foot with a lot of guys. Never neither it's it's so attractive, though it's one of those things words its if you even if you did see it would be so hard to know if someone on a truly of someone saw they were telling. You would be so hard to know to tell the truth, because so many people are full of shit and at such an attractive thing to say like if you, if you tell a person that you saw. I was in the fourth sauce ask watch. I got a man, two people roll their eyes like why of fire. But if you did, you know. How would I know I'll go I would have to have to resonate with me, member I was still would now be guessing. I can't tell people are lying I'd like to have them it's very hard to tell if people are line. That's why the
I felt thing and always interventional thing- that's why I think it has something to do with mental illness. It has something to do with personality disorders. I'm getting I get that sent to that. There's a like a weirdness in there too there's some narcissism, but there is also a system like weird you see with fame. There is a so Roy Bow, Meister might be famously college might pose doc. Adviser did a paper with land Newman on Ilene abduction in the nineties, and their theory was that people had. You know what Heaven Gacek hallucinations are like your asleep and you feel like you're frozen in whom wake and you can't move and young sleep browsing exactly so they get that stayed air there highway hypnosis or something, and they go something. Weird and I'll go ass. People know it says anything and they run into somebody knows how maybe or abducted, by an alien. You know, this, and then they go talk to an alien expert and their gag. As what happens in people go well, I felt like I was frozen. Hypnotized, like what happened, is a tractor beam and put me up, and then I was the inspected
and they put a chip in man, there's like a whole alien narrative and I used to teach us my class. I'd say like what happens when you get abducted by aliens in the whole class would know they know what thence. They now aliens work, they all knew about the anal probe and, unlike I'm like so we have we have an entire narrative in this culture but alien abductions, but we don T ailing abductions. It's a weirdest thing. but it makes it easy for people to think they abducted, because they all know the narrative. It's. So I interesting, but then, when I saw do diner show that action These women driver yeah, where I saw her, I don't like it I'm listening flying and I flung Mexico a lot when I was a kid I'm like like this guy's not lie, and I know you re out, That said, this is what we're talking about now, that is a residence rights. He David braver is a legit airforce pilot name. David. I wasn't dead, she's pile for the Navy, legit pilot husband
enormous portion of his life and knows a tremendous amount about aircraft. Anyway, he describes it. He did a great job. Describing on my ipod gas, but I would tell anybody his interest in this look for friend lacks Lex Friedman podcast with commander framework, as they go deep into the woods about the technical aspects of it acting with, because it was just him and lacks is on. My show was Jeremy Corbeille and me and him is like there was three different voices in it. It's better to. and they really got into a well because Lex. It also seen my interview with him and he wanted to talk to a deeper about it and they he discussed the the way this thing moved the way in that it was clear, enough to him that he could see it with his naked eye, it wasn't this. This wasn't something was just like a screen. He lately has a d, understanding of the size of aircraft he's been traveling flying aircraft for
a long time fighter Jetson. He had described it as being about forty feet long. They describe why he believed it was about forty feet. Long think that was a number but he explain how it moved explained, how it actively blocked radar and act to be blocked tracking, which is technically an act of war, he explained The thing moved from sixty thousand feet to one feet above sea level in less than a second. They have no idea. How did it there's no heat signature? They don't know that it took off in equal speeds and then it was. It was observed by the naval base miles away like instantaneously. They like it too here now. I know what the fuck is this and the naval, the guys that were talking him over the walkie talkie. Whatever communication is was saying: we get these every couple weeks that we ve had it here before, we don't know what they are and
you nice seen it, but they are powerless to do anything about it again. Did they move with speed? That's eyes all of our current understanding of how things are able to move through space and time. We don't know what they're doing or how they're doing or why they're doing it. We don't know where they're from which you went and said that Indeed, dimensional alien like well you're, just using words, Yeah, you don't. Let them know Asia with no idea with surges. So here's my question, then so we got a bunch of people want to be on your show because they sought Bigfoot or they saw an alien dear we have a guy on your show. That says he sounds legit and then the Navy says he's telling the truth. So it's not a conspiracy theory. These things are real. As far as we know, we don't know what they are. Why are people more curie? about the real ufos. I think they are ok think the narrative right now is, like you know, tromp back,
Let me tell you where I ask when we open up again, there's so many narratives that are really like all the glory in close and in your face, we have to deal with real shit right now. This is what which is where the Pentagon, during the middle of this came out and said that we have recovered crap that are now yeah what world right ouch really validated would Bob Bazaar was saying in the late not eightys? The lady? Why? When he was working at areas for me here He talked about how these things work back then, and he talked about their abilities. travel, the same way that Tik Tok or Tik Tok thing travelled and, same way. Some of the other ones that they ve observe travelled the travel in the same way, and he doesn't seem sideways that narcissistic. seems like a normal dude. I may I don't know. I know Madam blessing its heart
I shall write it, but his story has been remarkably consistent over more than thirty years. Ok, and when I was talking to me in seem full shit to me, he seemed like a guy who had an insane experience many many years ago, where he was hired by the governor to go and try to work out what these things are and how they how they operate, and they did really know how they operated and they were trying a bunch of different scientist and part problem was that the scientific process requires multiple people collaborating and they want to shut down all this collaboration because they want to keep things very compartmentalized didn't want anybody sharing any this information and he was apps baffled by what these things are and what they did, but his two hits take on it was, he had been told, many different things and want to things. He had been told us that these had been here for a long time and that one of them was from some sort of an archaeological dig.
and they had this idea of what they were and where they were from. But you know he did No, how much of what they are telling. Him was just bull shit so that you know he would have the wrong information. So if he ever decided a leak, it would b with some super complex government program that they were trying to disguise as alien crafts. Like we dont know, we all you know about that that too, Tat thing is that it moves in a way that, as far as our current understanding of how things are able to move then work if it moves in a way that, in infinitely superior, goes sixty thousand feet to one feet above sea level like that, and that's just because the radar takes a second track, didn't even know how fast away it might have been instantaneous. So they don't know what what what is doing. Then, how do you do that, as there is that Russia is? China know how to do the who knows to do that or is it from another planet? So when the
gone, says we recovered things that are not from this world. Maybe that's bullshit. To maybe this is stuff that we have made. This is something that we have developed a, maybe there's no person at all. Maybe it's just some sort of an infinitely fast drone that works This element is very rare, figured out how to make a fuckin particle collide or something I don't know that he does not seem full of shit right, Commander Frazier no way shape or form seems for shit. He is american, is Apple pie he's. He seems. One hundred percent logic, so do you think that when this becomes something people talk about that will change people's opinions about men, events or human, the human condition. If we encountered something that is absolutely from another planet, I think you would completely change our persuasions. It's kind of the fantasy as you'd start
with your neighbour a little better. If you, if you knew you could be eaten by an alien, it was Ronald Reagan speech that speech out, do a great speech I remember the sack in the eighties. He gave a speech for the United States and any was essentially saying how quickly would we forget our differences? If we were concerned with the threat from an alien world and all the alien dork like myself. Were Do is try to tell us something to areas like back yeah. That's what I thought and who knows me. Maybe he did know something. Maybe they didn't form of something it, sir? It's it's crazy subject. You know- and I think one of the reasons why so crazy is. We have so much light pollution that never see the stars really are so dad. I mean part of the issue at the human experience is, if you need anything old, it was all based in the world
Every night you saw the haven't dear, I guess, like a show, is watching the dead show every night you look in the sky and now has just gone, and so all those stories are lost from us and its really it's kind of like pollution. So Swear it's weird. It's really weird that we serve accepted as a necessary consequence of the road, the western world yeah, but I don't think we know it because most people don't. Get away and then walk. I mean you know: you're, not fishing somewhere in the middle of nowhere. You walk out to take a leak at two in the morning, look in the sky and you just you're, just like This is see the milk will do so. I went to Hawaii ones, who went a kick? Observatories are the greatest grants we caught it perfect where there was no moon noticed, it was last year s, hey ship with a glass ceiling just fly through the Heavens was an. You saw everything man, the sky with the naked eye up there. It was incredible new. Just so loudly incredible and I
still think about. I wish the scarlet Cardella if this guy looks like that all the time. I think it would be a lot like how we feel when we're next to the ocean x. It be like an odd spirit. Gay you give seem like your big deal, but didn't milky way even bigger than the feeling of being next to the ocean. I think I am more on sparring more humbling and the mountains war humbly than anything that we have here yeah and it's just not there I too, a guy who is just down enough virgin islands. Captain Marcus my my captain great went to went by a petty while under check out this site. but you see if you can try right anyway, I was you know the Temple like years ago. I'm looking at this temple like I found I want to make. Is this and I have a body any kind of anti like a call, staff and just knows a lot of the assets of Vienna, guys like Otiose man MIKE like some that you know but tat.
some the Crowley stuff, you know the adjective. I don't even know this assault. The austrian like this is weird I make this thing's crazy, so I kind of kept an eye on it, I'm going over there and I'm like dude. I just want to snuba and just get like a seabob to go underwater get in and it comes like. You cannot do that. I'm going to get fired and lose my license, and so It is nearly protected waters around and it's not it's really easy to see its right off the harbour in its huge. So why would you get in trouble for because people are going on the island by sitting? I guess I was in the first idiot TIM Deal and thinking about doing multiple done yeah. I think I've I've tried to talk to him out of a mug don't get arrested. I was I was
The first area values like this, it's just so healing you. Knowledge is right there and there's no gar near like I could just sneak in light James Bond, but its huge and an end. I am I'm like what kind of like this this guy's a creep. Everyone knew is a creep. A temple hit a temple where, in the top is off now from the hurricane at all, really not be gold dome on it off and it's easy doesn't crazy. You know that, and I guess I'd forgotten now, but that whole thing was just not so anyway. So back to the Holy you, a foe, the world thing. I think if we saw the stars every night, we probably way more open to the idea being visited, and we probably expect it. You know I think we would probably be way forward and while hopefully, with my back
can we killed each other back then too, I guess we killed each element. I've always always killed each other, but I liked it would be a little more mellow. That's when the more disturbing things about us right is, if you ask people, can you envision a world with, has never wore or violence stability, but it works in small groups. I give you may and Jamie's lived together in Ireland. I absolutely one hundred percent believe we would never be each other up or kill each other now to your team we Didn'T- I do culture exact stuff, but once you get to these unmanageable numbers, that's where you think violence is inevitable and the lack of communication. You become the other people I'm tribal yeah. Then you have violence, and then you have other things to go along with the bad aspects of humans idea. and it's always that I don't know if it's the Dunbar number, I don't know if it's from society's get over one hundred and fifty or three hundred it's some point. You get somebody with power and he can get a bunch of bs in a bunch of guards around him and just
for all the whole thing and then go to war in it's a nightmare. That's why these indigenous groups that are left in their so few out there, because they ve all been eaten up by cultures, so nice to go visit. Yeah an old people, yeah It's also there's there so romantic to us, because I think this part of us that understands that away their living. It's it's less complicated One of the we ve done by making life so rich and interesting and have so much available to us as revulsive complicated things to the point where this all these problems, that just they just have their without internet connections and electricity in their basically subsistence, there's that are also in tune with other Gaia. Yes, yeah, it's it's it's a hard life, but so is this one. This whence hard to achieve a better. In that one I mean, I think that life is, I don't know I've
Mongolian. We and we row with these. These guys would wait a translators in the nineties. It was fully three weeks was awesome and afterwards one of the women in the village. I gave that the translator, a wolf pelt. I looked at the guy like aren't you gonna stay? Do you really want to go back to town and he is like? I could just live here. You now is of any like now, I'm going back and that's what happened you by your life and then you get you your life and they are set out in your life and you're back once things I want to talk to you about is: do you think that one of the reasons why there are so many psychological disorders is that the world has changed faster than people have? Yes, I mean: how could you make sense of this world? I am I'm smart and- and I think about things and I've studied culture and about a month and a half or two months ago, is trying to good. I just second spare MIKE. I cannot I broke me, I'm like I cannot figure it out its chaos in May.
It isn't. I just gave up, but I've like. I can't do it. What seems like this to an event too many variables. It's a multi variable problem and you like its literally chaos. You figure it out. It's too much too many variables in all. My tools are useless and I'm just gonna resort to prayer, and maybe you know burning offer answer. You know with anti or something I don't know. The cynical sodomy thinks that were almost beings set up for this in the ball Cindy. our relationship with technology that were eventually being That's the only way we're gonna get out of this is where technology, because Our biology is essentially the same as it was what ten thousand years ago, something like that genetic I'm not very much not or not now, but the world is infinitely different, so I mean this: is it
can of worms, but this is where you get Neuro link. You know this is where you get your mind. I've been so so. There's two theories of the self and wine is that the self is sort of an emergent property from the action of neurons in the brain and that these things interact and complicated way, and when that happens, complicated early enough, a consciousness emerges self emerges, and that Elon Musk screw thanks what will get the be able to measure that will get the right. Software will get the right big data and we're going to be able to predict your behavior same way. I can predict the pigs behavior, I'm going to be able to predict you and then I'm going to be able to make something like you and put it on this computer. That's the project, singularity that that view.
it is, is a it's a it's a drives a lot of. What's going on in Silicon Valley, I don't think it's right. I miss essentially rebuilding Frankenstein you can we take associations and build a human. The problem is the other view, suggest there's a soul. You know that there's something in you that can't be constructed that there's some consciousness in you that we can't make out of neurons and create, and that's the that's where the that's the view that maybe William James or call younger. That's that's the vedic view. You know this abuse Ian in India and a lot of places and dad shoe doesn't fit well in psychology, because there's not really good place for the soul, since the 50s or 60s
We have these two views and we're going to see what happens. That's why I love you. I must cuz he's freaking going for instead of sitting around thinking, he's doing it and he said that's why you need that and I watch this show and there's some guy like we're going to solve this. I'm like you're never going to solve it, but I God bless you for trying. I hope you do whether he saw himself or whether we all solve it, and I say we very loosely about a part of it- the raw dissolved in the Collective Lee over the next fifty or a hundred years. It seems like we're moving in some weird dash where they want to go. They want is to link us into a computer and we're going to be aligned with these thing. That's what spooky that's I do something spooky that's because there's something that's except about our messy nature and that's one of the reasons why I think these indigenous cultures are so romantic to us because they do live, in the jungle in this very subsistence like way that they they ve been live in the same way. They understand the plants in the animals and to believe in that way
for thousands and thousands of years. I I I trying to understand who I am as a human. I was down in our visited that bushmen down. There is a cow and like safari this from my kids, you know I just want to meet the Bushmen dessert. old people and had a guy take us around. I was chatting with them and I was talking about like hunting and and I'd like how do you do it because he was were predators, we're just like the lions. We just follow the game and eat them like, oh, my god, we're predators, that's where we are, of course we're predators. It's just a soft, predatory, just soft, but they have to that's a trade off for weapons right, we're gonna weapons that this guy was very happy, being predators, gray, disliked eat, nor ex he's just stoked magnetic great energy, and I had lost That's because you live in these hot someone, as we don't think of ourselves, as predators were built, like predator
As you know, I don't want to look to the side when I'm scared all the time I mean we, you know we're we're the hunter, not the hunted most of the time but that and that's what we were genetic, that's what were made to be, which is where which is so strange that ten thousand years later, we find ourselves this really weird world lower in transition. But if you think about just a trend, should retreat from single cell organism all the way up to the human being its if it's gotta pee getting more complicated and you always got to give something to get something. I said: complexity works. You know you give up. I give up my freedom to do whatever I want, but I get society and society gives me more. I give up my peace to be on a team, but the aims better. You now serve you toughness to develop to develop weapons. Yeah and so in others that trade off and I and I'll again pardon me loves this. I'm so ended this text out, because, if so, when resting. On the other hand, I worry about losing our humanness because, like
try to spend one week a year off the grid dinner just free. It is fair somewhere fishing. You now know no phone, not that's nice, oh my god sanity and I never come out of that. Going out. I miss the internet on my god. I wish they blew the internet. I did Elk Recently I was up in the mountains and there's no self one single there at all, and you just it. Is you we sat gazing into it, and you, like you, achieve this state of like normalcy. Again, I could see. The world seems normal you'd. I wasn't thinking about nearly as many things I think about here. Not inundated but news and information you just out there live in the world and you didn't like cod. I miss in that you now, as Libya would overtime yell. If you do miss of One's family, not sure sure, don't know The ceremony miss the home of society. I I I I don't find
not at all, but I always come back. You know that you're nuts, they heard a job. I m all right. This life, you're gonna, be united. You gotta be a dad. I used to go down to Mexico like surfing the cargo, and I come back over once I came back in a week later I stirred scream and some of my friends pull out this graph and they'd graph, my mood and this they disappear, who is going to collapse, and if I may distort ladder back look at me. I, like I, can't get enough for those world, so it's to its attention now, where we have some the things that we have invested in this world and its great you now. I do want to give it up by its eye. For me, I am afraid I have to unplug in order to plug back yet I think of our plugged in all the time I go crate. Why think these kind of conversations in this book- the road and just understanding how the mind works? It it'll ill health people at the very least manage this weird state that we find ourselves stuck in. I want people to be able to have some clarity and make some of their own choices and they can make whatever choices
they want, and when you are informed, you make better choices, form you make better choices: yeah Keith! very much out why W W Liliana we Ivy League, William, now everybody my family worry about, and that is why, in my grandfather's male go by our middle name. Sir, just a lot of really conversation, goodbye, everybody! Thank you. Means for turning into the show and thank you too, policy genius. If you are homeowner head to policy genius, dotcom right now to get started, they ve saved their home and Otto. Sure it's customers, an average of one thousand one hundred and twenty seven thousand year policy genius when it comes to insurance, it's nice to get it right, were also brought to you by athletic greens. What am I all time? Favorite supplements if you are interested in upgrading your daily health routine,
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word you will see. Ten hours and the cash apple also sent ten dollars to our good friend, just in Rennes fight for the forgotten charity, building wells for the pig meat in the Congo and were brought to you by whoop, The fitness tracker I, where twenty four seven I fucking love it, it's fantastic. It gives all sorts of amazing insight on how Diet is working with your taken c b d drinking caffeine. How well you're sleeping it gives real information and amusing I use it all year, but I'm deftly using it through sober October for listeners. This podcast group is offering fifteen percent up with the code Rogan at check out so go to whoop. That's w h, o o p dotcom enter the code Rogan at check out to sea. Fifteen percent get to know yourself on a deeper level on block your self.
Blue, eyed friends. Thank you. So much tuning inertia.
Transcript generated on 2020-10-07.