« The Joe Rogan Experience

#298 - Dennis McKenna, Brian Redban

2012-12-16 | 🔗
Dennis McKenna, Brian Redban - Date: 12/16/2012
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
hello everybody this weekend friday december 21st two thousand and twelve the end of the world show at the wiltern theater honey honey band joe coco diaz doug stanhope and me last we checked there's only only about hello so we checked is only about a hundred seats left so if you want in and no we don't think the fucking world is going to end all right settle down here they don't no everybody settle down also we got going on this week the improv yes i am prob thursday we're going to try to do a live podcast they're up above and while we're trying to do like a nice house chronicles but at the improv it's a death squad show it's joey diaz is going to be on it jeff richards is going to host it i don't know if you seen jeff richards lately he is fucking hilarious now he's a he's got the best what's that jimmy fallon
fallon on a roller coaster like it's hilarious will will make it be yourself but i don't think i'm gonna pee myself but thanks for the plug if you're interested people keep asking me where do you get those those crazy cat t shirts the desk but shirts go to death squad dot tv and that also pays to support the dust what that's what podcast network that brian produces which has excellent kevin pereira pointless show on it now so fucking great show all those podcasts for free you can get them all on deathsquad dot tv alright dirty fox or bouts the podcast we have dennis mckenna here and we're going to get down to business we're going to find out what the fuck is up the author of the brotherhood of the screaming of this experience podcast by night what's with the crazy
what do you do with that sound you something bitch settle down dennis mckenna first of all and your friends i'm sorry i forgot your name is we might have indulge something that makes you forget things really quickly but if you can talk in the mic if you want it's keith clever sling please keith level caitlin mackenna caitlin mackenna that's legacy right there ladies and gentlemen dennis first thank you for coming on and thank you for sending me not once not twice but three times thank you show me here i want to be sure you got a copy of the book in your hand yeah i started reading it in vegas which i think is very ironic you know to be in that the the darkest places that mankind is created and star to read this book but as i've known of you for a long long time i was turn on to some of your brothers stuff through
so it was a song someone played me now song but a a rave that he did where he would over the rave and do like his his end of the world and of time sort of rant yeah yeah things could they could do was call time wave zero wasn't it the even the the the yeah i could yeah i mean i know he was in several of those things the what i remember is alien dream too yes yes was that the one well any dream time was in there like a movie what was yeah no that was album that was album i think ken adams actually who recently released a movie called the terence mckenna experience really he saw now i mean that's up to dole entering the well no not exactly i mean it's old clips you know from other appearances pretty good interesting movie now that one clip i'd listen to
really may might have started like an entirely new chapter of my life to because it was so it was so first of all so freaky you know and it was never heard anyone talk that way and your brother had this really odd inflection that was like like uh when someone is really smart and they talk with a really odd inflection you start wondering what's wrong with you you know like why am i not talking like this guy like maybe he's right he's honest something like their confident is to talk like that well what i think is that was always sort of char about terrance was that it did really matter what he said i mean i used to get after him and say what you get twenty minutes ago didn't make any sense that it directly contradicts what you just said which also does to make any sense you know but the because it doesn't matter because terry terrance he could have read the phone
book and it would have sounded great and people would be hanging on every word because he just had that gift you know he had the voice he mesmerize people and he was you know obviously it's super in widely read new all this stuff you know as a result of his in the in the hospice program and before that alchemy and you know black manjhi couldn't eastern philosophy in all of this stuff you know what i mean he was by far much broader under scholar that all ever be i mean my i'm quite narrow you know i mean i know science that's what i know you know not really he was just incredible he could draw on so many you know threads knowledge and and people were hungry to hear it i mean here was a guy who could say you know he loved provocative statements right he loved
you know antagonize you you know make people think and people wanted to be wanted to you know and that that was part of his appeal i think great live appeal i remember in the early 80s for anybody really got to new know who terrence was but he was out few radio clips of that sort of thing but back in the early 80s do you remember sing along with mitch sing along with mitch what was you were probably too young for this sing along with mitch it was like this really cheesy stupid music show with this guy mitch do you remember what is last name was i don't know but it was all about sing along with mitch and he would present this show it made seeing all these old songs he get people you know in the audience of watching television to sing right and so terrence went on one of
these programs on the moderate are said you know you're like sing along with mitch except it's like think allow with terence right and it was like that but you know he just stimulated to people to think about things they never really thought so this was the show sing along with bench dark good reason for the excitement here tonight that was the one yes pictures and a legend in your own time shirley temple she's do at the studio at any moment and we planted crazy you really can't talk like that on tv anymore people wonder why you talking like that no i know that this was so this was wait
is that interesting though that style of talking like there was like a weird fake style of talking on television back then that they just don't do anymore what an interesting show yeah it was very interesting so that was that was really you know that was a big strength of terrence he was so articulate as manic he was well educated them and he could make whatever he was talking about make sense even our sound like it was making sales even when it he it didn't well he had so many interesting ideas that opened up so many people to to new possibilities but there so there were is most certainly a few of 'em that were very very controversial timewave zero novel the theory being a big one which i tried to explain a friend of mine once and just just x trying to explain it i sounded completely crazy i said did it say something
she was trying to figure out how to measure time through using each chain ching which is an ancient chinese method of divination that somehow based on hex grams and maybe a map of time and my friend give me like i was out of my fucking mind and i'm like well the idea is at time is like a an algorithm somehow are not trying to track it right so do you are you familiar with the e qing yes yes so well that was the framework for this idea and and the you know the time wave i mean that's one area where we had a very different perspective and actually in the book i have a chapter on that i'm way when i kind of unpacked the time wave and my own perspective on it was that you know he
postulated that the time wave is an actual map of time right and i think that's where he overstepped the bounds i think what really happened was he rediscovered an ancient chinese calendar you know that because you can use the teaching as a calendar there's no doubt he's demonstrated that but if he rediscovered an ancient chinese calendar based on the chain would have been remarkable a few chinese scholars would have congratulated him and nobody would have noticed me on that but then he he you know sort of possibly this whole crew the notion about time and about how time was a fractal stre sure made up of residences and anyway the sort of you know the thing of interest for most people was that he had to postulate an end date an
he postulated several end dates you know because the theory said it had to have beginning in middle of it and he postulated several end dates but the one he finally settled on was december 21st two thousand and twelve you know which was close enough i mean i mean he actually pasta dated an end date that was slightly off that by november right yeah i'm a real vampire right and so then this is all we're talking about a cycle of billions of years right right right so he looked at that and many found out or all we knew about the mayan calendar and thought well there close enough let's just sink these together but there's no direct connection to the mayan calendar but didn't he say that he arrived at a completely independently of the mind of the well the time date he said that he
little pleasure ea little fudgery he arrived at a date that was close to that right but also during the time there were several times in the past when he postulated end dates that you know word i'm in the time i wasn't well known and there were you know fits came and went nothing happened and he just viewed that as part of the process of trying to to you know fit this thing again history did anybody go back and re examine the yichang for the possibility of it being a really effective ancient chinese calendar is anybody looked at that ass well no one to my knowledge except heroes i mean if you just if you just split that part out it's like it's out there though well
they said i think that it's a calendar well the terence you know believed it was like why wouldn't someone will follow up on that i mean that it it mean the level of forget about though the map of time thing which is like really really hard to follow but just that aspect so it seems like it would be worth looking at it would be it would be worth looking into from scholarship yeah definitely i mean there's no doubt that it is a perfect three hundred eighty four day you know thirteen month lunar calendar i mean it works very well as works as well as any other color berkel system that we have you know they're all they all have an acura
is you know and and that alone is remarkable and the fi you know but he had this whole other theory and and you know the the problem now that i have with the with the time wave theory was that there was no way to quantify this idea of novelty i mean i believe novelty in grasses into the continue
but it's hard to put a number on that i mean it just look around novelty is in caressing the end of the continuum of it and it appears to be accelerating but maybe that's just our impression but this was his idea the question is how do you define a novel vamped right our novel of vance i mean he he he had the theory that novel vance suddenly erupt into history and you know make a change on there those kinds of fans are really rare you know i mean asteroid impacts that kind of thing yeah those are abrupt novel fans but he used to site for example you know all the dropping of the bomb on hiroshima
i mean that was that had a huge impact on history everything after that time was different you know it changed our lives but was it was that the novel vander wasn't that testing of the bomb in alamogordo or will it the you know einstein's discovery the equations that enable this to be possible all those things were novel offense which happened very quietly and kind of unnoticed but if they hadn't happened this spectacular thing over hiroshima would not have happened either right so so my you have it was that novelty kind of diffuses into history rather than erupt into history and pretty soon you know everything changes but it changes overtime and and we're not even subjectively aware of it that much what was his motivation to
could pursue that like to pursue such a strange and very hard to follow theory well to pursue this time wave theory well too explain that we really have to go back to probably explain the time wave to for people don't know what the hell we're talking about yeah it might be able to go one flight early is the time wave theory right well the time wave theory is this mathematical construct you know based on the each sharing that terrence scott basically downloaded to him when we did the what's have been famously known as the experiment at luxury era you know which the book also talks about in which again a lot of if you're terence mckenna fan you know what that is if you're not you're wondering what the hell is
this you know so but the experiment luxury rewas when we you know well let me explain it i don't even know if we could go into it on the podcast but it was so i think that we attempted to do when we went to south america looking for exotic hallucinogens and this was in nineteen seventy one and we were motivated i mean i'm sort of getting off track here but i'm trying to bring it back to the issue
the time wave we were motivated to go in one thousand nine hundred and seventy one basically by are interesting in fascination with dmt i mean that was what goddess going because we had encountered dmt and the hate and berkeley in the 60s it was very rare you know extremely not not on the streets or anything it was hard to come by but we had come by it and had the experience of it and thought holy christ there you know there is nothing else more interesting than this that we've ever encountered and so you know we were involved in all the political turmoil and anti vietnam war movements and you know speech and all of that terrence was at berkeley i wasn't particularly but we we just thought you know none of that is relevant this is truly the most amazing thing that we've
encountered and so and so you know our original motivation to go to south america was because as you know that smoking of dmt is very short right it's ten minutes fifteen minutes and you come back and you're like what the hell was that what the fuck was that you know you can't bring back much from it other than just an overwhelming impression of awe and amazement and that you've looked into some other world that's more bizarre than anything you've ever seen you know encountered so we thought if we could find an orally active form of of this dmt that we would last longer that was a simple rash it would last longer and we could kind of get rc legs there and figure out what was going so hilarious expression for dmt
your sea legs you see likes right just spend a little more time and so we read about this very obscure drug prepared from species of free in south america is called for role as an schultis the famous ethnobotanist from harvard rd about wrote published a paper in one thousand nine hundred and seventy called verola as an orally active hallucinate yet right now for role is normally used as a snuff in south america right i mean the certain tribes the yamamoto another tribes they extract sap they dry it down they make a snuff out of it but there were a couple of tribes that made an oral preparation from it so that a acted our attention and we decided to go to south america and look for this way to to drug
called cuckoo hey or something like that oh cool hey an it happened to be that the ancestral home of the which hotel was at launcher era that's what led us to go to a lecturer originally right with the search for this drug that no one ever heard of you us and ari schulte's and so we went there looking for that and well at the time nobody knew much about iowa ask i mean i wanna skills also orally active form of dmt but we didn't know that at the time and nobody did that put up maybe we can talk about that later but up but we looking for roku hey right i got to lot chorrera we found that
the mission village that we set up that we stayed at the mission launcher error had cleared pastures all around about a couple one hundred acres of passengers and they brought say cattle into this place the white humpback cattle well the ship the the king of this cattle is the preferred substrate for selah city cubensis was a particularly rich year that here i mean a lot of rain mist on the pasture and all that so literally every cowboy had huge clusters of psilocybin mushrooms you know growing out of them and no again this was one thousand nine hundred and seventy one a lot of people haven't had much experience with psilocybin mushrooms but we knew from a reference is what this mushroom was we didn't we'd never taken it with a thought great psilocybin mushrooms wonderful
we we were we were misled right we thought that hey was the real mystery that we were after it turns out psilocybin mushrooms were the real mystery and psilocybin is in fact the perfect orally active form of dmt right the silla active form of psilocybin is just one mile in one atom different from dmt and it's perfectly engineered for human metabolism it's non toxic take its orally active it's easily you know screed it's all it's ideal it really is that's a perfect psychedelic in some ways so we but at the time we thought we were after oh hey so we thought well okay so these
terms are here this is great while we're waiting for the real mystery we can eat these mushrooms when we started eating the mushrooms and pretty soon things got very weird we were literally eating them every day and they were they were we just started having a lot a lot of very interesting conversation how many days did you do for all you know i mean there wasn't that much to eat at sure we had brought canned goods and rice and things like that but we found that it was very easy to just kind of a few mushrooms into the soup you know they didn't taste bad so probably for a week for ten days or so we were pretty much taking mushrooms constantly one and uh and it began to suggest this experiment that we could do you know it began
it it the mushroom or the telogen slept spoke through the mushroom you know it was never quite clear but there was definitely it was like having a very intelligent guest at your party and you know you didn't see it but you definitely were in touch with it and it began to suggest this this experiment that we could do i mean this wild expert i meant the experiment a lot rarer and we you know how much detail you want to go into on this but we we perform this experiment that trying to get it back to the e chang and the time life thing we perform this experiment it something like create the philosopher's stone essentially out of our own dna and the dna of a mushroom and sound and light and singing into the mushroom and coming up you know
getting these superconducting resonances and you know i mean the stuff you can read about it in the book you know but but we had this idea that we could essentially i guess i should back up and explain we had this idea that the sounds that you could hear on high doses of mushrooms i don't know if your experience with dmt you hear things right you often here over tonal sounds in the whole oral spaces as interesting as the visual space in some ways well on high doses of must so that similar as well an you know if listen to the sounds so you can start to sort of try to imitate them and you know you can sing along with them or you can vocalize along with them and the attempts to vocalize them are generally not
oh good they're hard to imitate but you reach a certain point where you just locked onto it and then it just pours out of you they're in a very how powerful way and in a way that's it's like almost being possessed or something this this this sound energy just pours forth so the mushroom suggested to us a lot of ideas about what these sounds were and how they could actually set up molecular resonance as you know in our own brain things our own dna and the dna of a mushroom and that we could essentially well create in some ways create the ultimate object create the ultimate artifact which would be ourselves our own minds in an external lines form the
in a physical from the interior physical form that you could actually carry around it would be a binding of space time and it would be i know this is crazy stop that isn't highest you can get i think that's as high as a human can get well if you could have this thing about so we have how to about how to deuce this sound generate this option not only generate this but but fix it like in alchemy you fix mercury you know i mean that's the final step of alchemy kills this stuff was like mercury this was like minds it was the violet psycho flew would we called it you know when this was a shared vision between the both of you both this was this yeah shared ideas call vision in a certain sense and so how was it coming to you it was
mushroom was you know the mushroom or whoever was communicating through the mushrooms was just matter of fact eccle sort of wrapping this down you know we were receptive to it it was like we're writing furiously and it's like we developed this experiment this idea which had a whole lot of predictions i mean crazy predictions that yet you would actually have at the end of the day you would have for the night more accurately you would have a physical object that would be outside the body but it would be you and it would be like and it turns out there's all sorts of precedent for this right i mean the idea of the alchemist stone philosopher's stone or the time machine the flying saucer the you know the
alchemist scrying mirror you know that you can look into and see the future i mean this idea haunts the human imagination that there is a way you can externalize the imagination anne you know still will be at and this thing that you would have or whatever it was would be rich pensive to your imagination and it would be able to you literally whatever you could to match that saw isn't that sort of an alternate theory on ufos isn't as well that you're you're the imagination actually can conjure up a physical object yeah they don't even say yeah exactly exactly that's what we're saying of and even young speculated about that that's right so you know i mean i know this sounds crazy forty years later it sounds crazy to me too but
the time it was like this is what's going down right and you both agree to it that's receiving we froze agree to it and we made predictions about what would happen right at one we did this experiment this is what will happen and predictions were such that they couldn't possibly happen because you know this is absurd you can't create camp externalize the mind in this way but we made predictions and when those didn't happen a bunch of other interesting things happened instead we had literally painted ourselves into a conceptual corner where something happened to had to give and so we it into a prolonged altered state for like fourteen days i was some weird across the cosmos literally and you know i was i harken back to reese period when i smoke dmt
in my entire mind was co contiguous with the you know angry some space time and terra became extreme you know he became complementary to that he became extremely hyper vigilant and very focused on our place and be like the anchor like if i was out there in the cosmos he was the beacon that was bringing me home and our companions these poor people thought that we completely nuts you know and they were not dissipated these are the locals no no the two people that we've gone with where it was like they had step back from it
so they were somewhat earlier well the yeah i must have been so we were like rain it was very strange for them i'm sure in strange for used to of strange for us you guys being but we were making sense to each other and there's actually term in this for psychology in psychology it's called the follia do it's the it's the folly of two simultaneous you know psychosis essentially but it wasn't a psychosis that's the thing people have to understand it wasn't it psych sis if anything it was closer to a show monic in creation i mean the multi use of shamanic initiation more than the motifs of psychosis fit what went on we were transformed an we transformed in a complementary way and we also reintegrated or less you know so that i mean i'm fair
a functional now i don't know that i've ever totally reintegrated but you know what i mean it wasn't show sonic initiations where you go through this metamorphosis an things are done to you and you're torn apart and your changed but then you're put back together in a different form and that's really what happened but i wasn't put back together as the you know superconducting you know bionic creature with access to all information and all space and time that didn't happen and and so to try to bring this around to wither the time wave the time wave came about because terror this was you know in this hyper vigilant state work he did sleep for fourteen days you know he was watching over me for once
i think as i tended to wander off and you know i was completely three to the wind literally you know and and this this cosmic fantasy world but he was very focused but he started thinking make it charge of time he was true going to predict we i've done this experiment and we had predicted that the stone would condense in this physical form and at the end of the experiment that didn't have but we were getting the message that we did everything right it's just your timing that's off and it will come right the stone will condense at some points but so it became this whole game sort of of trying to predict when will the stone can dance and so terence again charting our course you know any he found like he was he count
back sixty four days two sixty four days to the to the you know from the date of the experiment and it turns out that was the date of our mothers death the previous october and then he started going forward from that date several cycles of sixty four and it turns out that was his birthday in one thousand nine hundred and seventy one so that became sort of focus for predict and when it would condense the course came and went so over the years he tried to for i guess fine tune this prediction find tune this and that's what the whole elaborate time wave theory grew out of you know he if if there is an alien artifact that was given to us by this experiment then it was this it was this mathematical construction
you know which wasn't given to me it was given to him what was given to me were you know i mean the experience of you know be been spared over the cosmos and then gradually over fourteen days basically condensing myself back into a body and you eating was i eating i don't know i get somebody was feeding me i mean i wasn't doing those things it was it was someone must've fed me do you remember going to the bathroom do you member i don't but you know what i remember i remember that i was in hyperspace i was co contiguous i shared topology with everyone so if i wanted to take a shit for example i would ask my friend to take a shit i could you know and i could eliminate that
play because art apologies were joined or you know if i wanted to like a cigarette i'd ask vanessa to smoke a cigarette and i could all those kind of crazy ask me to smoke a cigarette for you please write i mean i know this sounds crazy i shouldn't even be talking about no no you should public do you subscribe to the idea of the like these ancient cultures like of the mayans and these these people that but these incredible structures that very actually this is psilocybin induced to their culture was so sudden induced well yeah i do i think there's a good chance that it was i mean i think that that the only that certainly wasn't the only track and field jen that the mayans knew about but that was an important one what else did they know about well they knew they know about a lot they do about you know they knew about all
load central american ones the morning glories olio key the you know lady salvia probably all of those but the mayans definitely knew about mushrooms and i think it's likely that mushrooms you know i mean if if you talk about the stoned ape theory you know what you've talked about in terrence has talked about it's most likely mushrooms you know that because my shrooms are pam global they're found in every every climate you know if it's tropics it's it's i losophy cubensis if it's temporary so lots to be semi land sea otter but these things are all over the place their potent they don't why are any preparation no technology needed other than the curiosity to bend over pick it up an munch it and
in a one once you do that then the impact it had to be profound you know and and about omnivorous primates here who are hungry all the time very acutely feed into their environment i mean it's not like they're going to over look at it right so they'll see is a male elite test things in there that are exactly exactly they they're on divorce and they test things and so they test this and then they get the the message and i i think that you know i'm mean the stoned ape theory there there are things that are puzzling to me that i totally don't completely under and it's like you know we were you know if you if you look at the archaeological evidence for the critical
period when consciousness emerged in our species except for a couple of indications that go way back like half a million years but but you know the efflorescence of artistic expression which is really the only way you can tell having some between one hundred thousand years ago and eight thousand years ago you know you look at the cave paintings and some of the old first ones the blombos cave in south africa goes eighty thousand years that was clearly those artifacts were clearly done by conscious being with an artistic sense you know so if that equates to cognition but then the the you know then clearly consciousness was happening you know somewhere after a hundred thousand years up until now presumably you know consciousness was happening but if you look at the fossil record
the neurologically modern brain was much older than that you i mean essentially you know at least one hundred thousand maybe two hundred thousand years older than this emergence of consciousness you know the neurologically modern brain with all the apparatus needed to j language and it's all about language and it's about this making this connection between sound image and symbol mean shuffle symbol and i've argued in a lot of luck features and so on i mean my stick if you will that what this is what this amounts who is synaesthesia rights just easier it be in the translation of one sensor remote to another well liked cycad do right psychedelics
reliably induce synesthesia where you can hear colors and see sounds that's the most trivial aspect of it people can't do that without psychedelics but some can somewhere genetic some people are genetically synesthetic their experience of meaning and languages is very different it's in listing that synesthesia in genetically synesthetic people is often associated with languages and language and number you know so they'll say crazy sounding stuff like you know the letter c is hard and chrome colored you and their thing speaking in the abstract but this is an actual perception for them or you know the about the personality of the number nine well
now these are they functional these kind of something people many of them are brilliant yes they're totally functional so there are seeing all this around them all the time but they can still manage their way to move through it so there essentially walking through a living mushroom trip yeah kind of in a i mean i think they are aware of their so cognitive environment if you want to put it that way the one the same one that we inhabit but a lot of this stuff goes into the background for us right and less we take a psychedelic or so they like that and then it comes out into the foreground it goes on in the background that's essentially what i'm saying the process of understanding language is a process of synesthesia that were not even aware of right where we have
we live in we live in a world in which abstractions and symbols are as real as you know anything in the outside world right and we live in a world in which symbols have significance and that is the basis of language we are our ability to perceive meaning and it's based on this sort of conscious miss tesia which we do all the time ann and mushrooms may i mean respect to the evolution of the primate brain that what i what i think i'm postulate is that that you know some like mushrooms were able to trigger these types of synesthetic experiences in people and essentially became training tools for learning cognition training tools for learning
how to associate meaning with meaningless sounds and essentially meaningless symbols meaningless visual cues and aural cues but it made the essential connection to significance the feeling of significance no am i making any sense yes absolutely so that that's the mechanism involved of taking an intelligent thinking lower primate and turning it to a human being right exactly do you ever want a champ and give it a lot of mushrooms and see what happens well yes of course my god it's all want to do is right i just feel like there there's got to be something of that right but it doesn't happen abruptly it's happens over time right right just have a whole farm well yeah but yeah but again i mean there are other things going on there are there are you know i don't
if its climatological factors criminal logical factors maternal inheritance factors you know i mean this is a whole other area of we didn't even really describe the theory for people who don't know what what the higher primate siri is or sees me the that's why i am just a t shirt hear the the stoned ape theory is that psilocybin mushrooms or psychedelic mushrooms were responsible for creating human beings and the one of terence's assertions was that the the doubling of the human brain size curd over a period of about two million years and that this correlate stew the timeline of these fourth row receding in grasslands and then these monkey you know apes experimenting with different food sources does that stuff all jive with like core samples and like climate studies and is all that stuff the same
time with human brains has doubled as at all legit the it well yeah yes pretty much legit i mean we know that there were you know i don't think you could put your finger on any one factor in say this was responsible for the expansion of the human brain but definitely the you know transition from our oriel two two plane type existence it's on the serengeti was at time of incredible environmental stress for these for these primates and for the whole environment they had to adapt and they had to learn a whole new buy it a whole new mode of existence and it's not clear at the time frame that this took place over but i think that and it
it is not clear how much of what just happened i mean it's not clear that this necessarily triggered consciousness but it certainly triggered adaptations in in these primates that you know they were they were for forced into so that perhaps got them ready when the time came it's that's the part that's difficult to predict yeah or nail down how long how far back were these mushrooms used you know was it a transient thing or did the climate change you know there was there a point around one hundred thousand years ago where the climate in that area got much wetter and suddenly these things became more more common or were they always there and you know it's it's just difficult but i think one of the
characteristics that we do know about psychedelics is that they they can induce this feeling of what's been called pretentious nahs right feeling of a feeling that at experience something is significant so feeling of reverence or or you know all of those things that we associate with religious sensibilities you know it's not that psychedelics you know there are religions that have been founded around psychedelics obviously the mushroom cults and all of these things but psychedelics sir a religion they are in a sense d religion or they they they hit those parts of our brain that are capable of having religious religious responses in some way and so when you get that going then you
have these primates with a sense of being in touch with some you know in touch with some transcendent other that is more significant that themselves that they feel a longing for and i think that's the religious sensibility of that that's also what what drives our species forward you know is this is this longing to know the unknown essentially you know i mean terrence talked about i actually rudolf otto talked about that the psychedelics are a mysterium tremendum right rudolph auto talked about the they are a tremendous mystery that is terrifying and fascinating at the same time and the
this is been the continuing carats that's pulled our species forward in in my lectures i i sometimes like in them to the idea of the monolith in two thousand one if you know cuber tried to conquer types that idea the idea of the my to let something that's utterly alien totally incomprehensible completely terrifying an fascinating right they can't take their eyes off of it and it inserts itself into history or evolution at critical junctures it just shows up you know things happen and i'm saying we don't need to invoke the model it because that's what the psychedelics in nature are our own built in monolith in know built into the biosphere do you find it frustrating that that's not considered by this
gendered people of science when they discussed theories of evolution the you know that mean help is it's really strange to me i finally they factor it out yeah it's weird how the there's obviously a bunch of different factors cooking meat you for the the throwing arm you know there's a lot of the right actor right me right but why would they not consider that as well that's always been really confusing to me and the only thing that makes sense is that they done it there you go you on an x there but i mean even graham hancock talks about this the the person that wrote this very interesting book about the cave pay contains the mind in the brain is the name of the book i forget the author at the moment but this very well respected south african scholar who
put a book about how altered states in you know in the you know shamanic rituals carried out in the dark or in the almost total darkness in these caves that's what the cave paintings were about these things were painted painted by people in highly altered states doing shamanic ceremonies but eva the guy who wrote the book will not take mushrooms you know graham hancock attempted get him to i mean he wrote about his work with great enthusiasm and aberrations if you want to confirm your theory this is what you do why is it that it did do it though if you did do in did do it publicly it would it would hurt him in in in an academic sense well we do you know that's probably why he didn't do it why would it hurt i mean it seems to me it would hurt him because drugs are verboten yeah know but in fact that
is the honest thing to do is a scientist and and i think if enough of the right people you know the people in this field actually would let themselves have this experience i think the controversy would resolve itself because those of us who have experienced it just seems obvious it just seems it's very strange to me that it's not considered even as a factor at all when if you've had the impact event experience personally you know the incredible impact that it has how could that not be considered when in terms of something that affects consciousness if you're you're talking about someone who has no science someone who has no books to read someone who as you know whatever language existed at the time having a blow out psychedelic experience would be so staggeringly profound on the show
keeping of your vision of the world that it's weird that it's not considered and it's really a shame as far as the way the people that educate people in the world whether it's in high school or whether it's in universe colleges that they they personally are not aware and or and have been educated by this experience because it's it's not what everybody thinks it is they we this idea that escape from reality you're running away from things you're clouding things up with drugs and then because it's under this one blanket this one blanket of description drugs it's it's really weird that it's not considered as a factor in the development of the human being you well exactly because of the rubric put under i mean they're people it's one of these things that exists in the shadow you know it's in the shadow and the reason it's in the shadow is
because it is a true mystery and true miss trees are freighted with newman asati right with the numinous and you know i mean despite lip service that the church pays to all this stuff i mean the main mission of the church is to ensure that people do not have genuine religious experiences i mean yeah that's the most dangerous thing to the to the church that there could possibly be if someone passes all the priests in the whole you know higher equal structure just goes out and talks to god won't god's going to give you a different message the priests are giving you i tell you you know it's dangerous it's dangerous what did you give john marco allegro's work the sacred mushy cross his assertion that if for the folks who don't know this one just a brief one he was a scholar who was a an ordained minister who
came a theologian as he was studying theology he became agnostic and reviewed according to him the dead sea scrolls and believe that the end of fourteen years of studying it that it was essentially the hi christian religion was about psychedelic mushroom use an fertility cults and he wrote this book called the sacred mushroom and the cross and his that's his assertions that jesus actually was a mushrow well i don't know if i don't know if jesus was a mushroom but i do think that allegro was a serious scholar and i think he i think it's a shame that he was vilified the way he was because he was philology straight he was a specialist in these these aramaic language is he was one of the people appointed one of the scholars appointed to the translation the dead sea scrolls and he
incidentally apparently according to andy read of it and people like that he was the only one who wasn't a priest on this committee for one thing so he was immediately sort of outside the officially approve circles i think to the i'm not a fill ologist but i think to the extent that i mean you know so i'm not really qualified to interpret whether his scholarship was together or not he was call quality he was well enough qualified to be appointed to this to this translation committee so we must have had something going for him self and when in his his account is he says honestly you know when i reviewed all this stuff and began to put two and two together seems that there were all these illusions to fungi ann
you know to mushrooms and i didn't come to this with this agenda that's what's in here and he was a straight guy to when he was a straight guy yeah he was a stray so i think i think that he was a good example of an honest scholar who off slee reported what he found and who his message was unacceptable and so the you know the established the powers that be the higher authorities decided basically he had to be destroyed and he his reputation was thoroughly trashed you know now is it true i mean was jesus a mushroom did they use ahman idama scary or some other mushrooms i think it's likely you know we know that the the gnostics which is the pre christian or quasi christian group out of that wrote the dead sea
rolls out of which christianities supposedly sprang they have a lot of very peculiar notions set and notions that would be considered heresy by by you know chris it now i mean i mean the god of the bible genesis was seen in gnosticism is an evil entity right because it was keeping keeping humanity imprisoned in in the world of matter when the soul long to be liberated into the light and all that so that was his view of this whole thing that would not gross view but that was the view of gnosticism that's a pretty psychedelic vision right there you know i wouldn't surprise me at all if this group you know i was using either amen eight hundred am escario and or some kind of psilocybin mushrooms
the craziest quote from the book was that he had translated the word christ back to an ancient sumerian word which meant a mushroom covered in god semen yeah wow i mean that's a that's a heavy one yeah especially for a is not doing drugs yeah yeah i straight academic to this is what i got right now this is what he had and he had to be disc read it because that wasn't the message that you know but but you know we're there should we be surprised i mean the church has been suppressing stuff you know for years i mean the i mean look at the bible the bible is a very select
compendium of gospels but there's a lot of material that never made the cut as we know it's weird that to me that with the incredible power that the psychedelic mushrooms must have had on ancient people we know people have been taken for a long time we don't we we know for sure they existed how are they not being used all throughout these religions today like how did how did all the different intellectual societies of this world lose touch with perhaps maps of the very thing that gave us our initial intellectual curiosity like how about happen how could it happen that at the highest levels of learning which is where we're at in twenty twelve if you you know if you follow a linear timeline this is advances we've ever been so if that is the case how is it possible that
it's removed from cnn and the new york times it's not something is being not just a once in a blue moon john hopkins study which shows that it improves your personality but some legitimate consideration to that it might have been a factor and why we're here and we're one of the reasons why we are so fucked up one of the reasons why our society is so crazy is because we're detached from one very things that might have created this human being in the first place that's seems to me to be something that should be considered it's seems to me like if you look at all the other factors like eating meat in the throwing arm and you know figure complex problems and hunting in all things that could have happened how could you not be looking really closely at this one mushroom that makes you see incredible visions x
bloor realms that seem realer than this real this reality that we live in right now the only reason is because either your your you have experienced it or you have experience in you're terrified and you're trying to keep everyone else from it does the so i think i think it's more the latter i mean i think you what don't understand the proper and you if you will or the proper human institution to kind of be the steward of this mister it's a real mystery right the cape even though we understand a lot about the neuroscience we can talk about neurochemistry and receptors and all that that does not make the connection or cross the bridge between what we experience when we take it we know all about the underlying neural physiology of it but it still doesn't bridge the gap to what
we actually experience right so it's important so so i say it remains a mystery as does the ferry conundrum of consciousness you know how does the brain mind generator experience consciousness but it it is a genuine mystery and if this and properly should be the the province of religion but religions serve that anymore religions are political institutions right i mean they they if they have a real mystery they want to put it in a box and put it over here someplace and keep people from it you know because they gets in the way of promo gating the doctrine and the doctrine is you know told the line don't ask too many questions have faith right you must have faith
which generally means which means essentially you have to believe a lot of stuff we tell you that for which there's no evidence that's in the heart of them you believe it because we tell you to believe it so have faith don't ask too many questions you know and basically told the line so there are political institutions religions there into bludgeoning people into a certain mode of behavior and they working in conjunction now in our culture with governments and corporations and to help people you know taking mushrooms and and having all these funny ideas and questioning the status quo this is not
this doesn't serve the agenda he told of how many people who are making the agenda how many people really true we've had the experience is is it a very few so is it is it that they don't want these people having that in and and you know thinking about things and coming up with new solutions trying to reshape society or is it complete ignorance and just trying to suppress it because it's in their best financial interests is no well it's hard to that's really hard to know i mean whether they do it out of ignorance or whether they'd whether there is a more sinister agenda which is perhaps some of them have had this experience and and realize that for people to be having these types of experiences a threat to the status quo because exactly as you say it motivates us to change the way we are to change the way we relate to the world and we're no longer good produce
consumers you know we don't fit into the agenda anymore i think it's ironic you know it in a way you know back in the 60s dmt used to be called the businessman's true right the idea was you could smoke it on your lunch hour and get back to work after your lunch hour except that after you smoke dmt who would even want to go back to your cubical you know so they're inherently subversive in this sense that they encourage people to take person responsibility for themselves you know and think for themselves thinking for oneself is it discouraged activity these days
there's also the issue of a lack of guidance in this country especially when it comes to these different things because of the fact that they are illegal there's a lot of misinformation there's a lot of misinformation people don't understand how to use them they don't understand where they're going to get him from its if there was like would be amazing if we had shamanic institutes or people go and there would be someone who could literally guide you along i mean if we were really an intelligent culture that trusted each other as grown adults with ability to make choices and and have educated choices yeah we no it just seems like they were missing out well i'd give it twenty years saying i i i do i think i think that despite all the resistance that's probably where it's going and it will happen in a very
subtle way and that won't attract a lot of attention but i think that i mean you know until it's a done deal in a sense i think that what we're witnessing now is that with this psychedelic renaissance you know that 60s and all that that's all gone but now a lot of hysteria host died down and now we're in a position to revisit this whole thing at take a second look in a calmer way an i think a lot out of the research that you see happening is going going to i mean i know the the work the institution i'm affiliated with in that respect as the heffter research institute people should check thatoutafter dot org because
most of the leading researchers in and are on on our board or either on our board or supported by our by half terry to some degree but the work that people like roland griffiths are doing there are other investigators with his well known what he's doing is is the way open the door to the use of these things is to that's either religious or medison you know if you can find a legit am medical use for psilocybin then that changes everything because that mean is that the fda can be pressured to change the scheduling of it once the scheduling of it is changed its now scheduled one right and first criterion schedule one is a dangerous drug no possible medical use well if you do good rigorous science and you do several clinical studies which is what they're doing
with this psilocybin end of life kind of approach to it helping people to come to terms with their impending death and deal with anxiety and they may you know spiritual crisis around that that's essentially what they're using but if you can show legitimately that it has a use in that respect then you can change the regulatory framework you can you can actually get it approved for that use once it's approved for that use your how to change the scheduling of it from schedule one to probably schedule to then you open up the possibility of off label uses right as with any drug and then there can start to use it and i think that you will see in ten this maybe you will see x actually that you will see institutes
places where you can go i mean the next step is to say well if psilocybin can benefit dying people maybe can benefit well people maybe it can help well people people who are not sick tsd ptsd another example you know but just spiritual evolution just a discipline you know which is what shamanism is people have to go the south america now to find this stuff you know they do and a lot of them go there because they're not finding any spiritual satisfaction in our own institutions so what we have to do is create our own institutions that are not copy these of south american shamanism but our own you know our own neil shamanism innocence the borrows from these different traditions but that works for
us our works in our culture do you see the lack of changing of the classification of marijuana it's still scheduled one despite all the evidence of his medical uses for that do you find that as like discouraging and if anybody hears a that noise that's dennis plan velcro okay they don't get mad at us the city that some static electricity because people will get mad and send like a hundred twitter messages so you're sure i'm so sorry for him still i've i've a fiddler what can i say it more about it but deep back to the question do you do you see that the the classification from marijuana which still despite all the evidence of the contrary even some really interesting stuff about cancer you know some is all that rick simpson hemp seed oil and or i guess it's really hash oil it's because it is psychoactive active but he calls it hemp oil i guess maybe to make people feel better about it but whatever it is they
the work that that guys done and all the different studies have shown what it does to for glaucoma patients with duds for way sting syndrome and people have a hard time why is there no change in the classification of that because it seems like there's a good body of work that show some medical uses for it we get with cocaine is schedule to write cocaine is met schedule two because it has recognized medical use right that's hilarious well yeah i mean the the whole situation in away is i think with respect to cannabis is is this is somehow different because it's so freighted with political consider oceans i mean that don't really play the psychedelics to the same extent because even though we are immersed in this world of psychedelics and we think it's important we're still talking to three percent of the population at most
if that even gives a shit about psychedelics marijuana is like six percent of the population so i do i think you're seeing you know i mean i don't know i think the pharmaceutical cartel in some ways is lined up against this because medical marijuana is potentially so use well for so many things that they're making money on right now by making drugs to treat them and if you look at their research efforts if you look at what's going on in the back room and they're not talking about they're totally into cannabinoids kim street right there mean their developing all kinds of pharmaceuticals but those are patentable i that they can own and produce synthetically in charge you a lot of money for so i think that pot is a threat to
the hegemony of the pharmaceutical cartels that's one thing i think the government is kind of deer in the headlights about it you know as the obama had been nation's reaction to the latest legalization i mean fine they're beginning to get their act together of say the right thing which is okay apparently this will just let this social experiment go forward and see where it goes which is the right thing to do and i think if they do that you'll see it evolve tour other stay will say well washington colorado legalize pot they didn't collapse and they're making a lot of money off taxes we
some of that will do that so i think you'll see a change over time i would agree with you but what will cordova did in the first administration is is first years with the da the i l us that a lot of pot clubs when i said he wasn't gonna do that i know i know he said he wasn't going to do that now it's even grosser what they do what they actually do i've i know a bunch of people that have been busted they take all your money they take all your pot and then they say your case is pending and they do nothing they just rob you yeah right this actually rob you and stop you from doing business and scare the out of you swear i do it again but because you're not violating state law they they don't really pursue you they just steal from you they just show it down they just really financially and every other way and physically because you're going to be freaking out because you're thinking you might have to go to jail because federally what happens is when you are not violating state law but you were violating federal law when you go to trial they don't even let you use the term medical marijuana it's now
not allowed to be used in accordance inadmissible so there is no medical marijuana in the eyes of the federal government so you can't even defend yourself by telling the people in the jury that you were not in violation of state law it's incredible and it's really a terra crime on humanity i mean that's really what it is of the government is essentially a criminal cartels and the way that that and the way that they handle rash this the the other question regarding people in jail that do not not only do they not deserve to be in jail they haven't done anything wrong providing people with something they want and they're doing it according to a law it's a state law and that is a real sickness when people think that vindicated or justified in some way for locking those people in cages those are the real criminals that's the real criminals in our society is that people that are locking people in jail for pot that's a real sickness and uh
and that the how parker see is just so outstanding and everywhere in every bar and every drugstore everywhere you go there's alcohol and yet you're gonna lock these people in a cage for doing something that's not nearly as bad that's insane the here's the thing yes it everything you say is true but the thing is the people see through this the fact that you could get this vote in wash in colorado is a very hopeful thing if they will let it go forward then overtime they'll begin to see the benefits of that in the sense that exactly as you say parts okay is not nearly as harmful as alcohol so you'll see reduced traffic fatalities you know people may be driving stone but they're safer drivers with their stone will not lift their if their intoxicated you'll see reduced incidence is of domestic violence and other kinds of violence you'll see that actually low
do people smoke pot alleviates a lot of societal problem it won't eliminate that but you'll see statistically significant reductions in a lot of the parameters that because we know that alcohol fuels violent behavior it fuse fuels domestic violence traffic accidents all this stuff those things will be reduced if people start smoking pot in place of that so i guess i guess i'm just disappointed in the fact that it's taken so long that i will become kind of cynical so the way the government approaches it because it just seems so ridiculous at this point well it does seem ridiculous and it's like the emperor has no clothes i mean it's like this policy has so long been placed and there's so much inertia behind it right there's the whole law enforcement infrastructure
you know the dea the prison industrial complex the you know i mean so many things depend on it's not just the drug kartel's arraignment and their profits go away but the whole governmental infrastructure to support the prison guards union yeah all of those things dairy bore misli threatened they don't want things to change you know the last people who want to see pot legal is drug dealers there profit margins go out the window i don't think they really lobby that much though no they don't but you know what i mean and the government has a big investment in the current you know situation i feel if anything the one thing that's going to change everything is the internet the access to information is so complete now that there's really it's it's too hard to maintain ignorance right and for people for the gov
to maintain that marijuana has no medical application is just absurd i mean it's just absurd although they they do everything they can to discourage research you know out of one side of their mouth they say well we want people to apply for grants and we encourage research but then they make it impossible to get legitimate sources of cannabis to do the research so which is it you know so it is it's a bad situation but but i would say this i i would say that we have to remain number you know we have to take a longer term sort of view of this and we have to remind ourselves that we with witnessing a what what is really going on here is a co evolution between us and these plants and this has been going on for so how long one hundred thousand years at least
cannabis is among those plants right and so if you take a small slice of historical time and say what is our current you know species relationship with these plants it doesn't look very good you know they're being suppressed and all but it's a small slice of time in the end the and swim right because this is what's going on the plants when you cannot eradicate cannabis from the of the earth much as they might want to and they really don't want to hear about this just a small group that are profiting from it being illegal and they would like to continue to do so they will russia continue yeah i was and it will change it will change over time you know i i really think so yeah i just like i said i think i'm frustrated by the fact that it's taken so long yeah but that's also because
and so many people have had to suffer needlessly people that are in jail dowd who don't belong terrible case about a guy in montana who is a grower who was following the state law even had state law enforcement authorities on a regular basis come out to his grow houses and he showed them when he was doing is providing for all these different patients in montana and this guys up for eight years in jail and he's ease up for more in jail than he would be if he killed somebody yeah jails twenty five to life for murder and this guy is that's eighty years is his potential sentence it's insane for growing some plants that the state approved the state made a law they approved it he was there he brought state people in they said yup everything's good brought the state police in yeah everything is good ok we're good ok we're good let's grow some pot roast the plot gives it all the sick people and now
poor guys and one hundred and ninety or stretch right but since it's insane yeah it comes in as a man of science and you clearly are what you feel when you see like cnn you see like doctor drew talking all this craziness on cnn about withdrawal symptoms and withdrawal syndromes he was from from misuse and about the cannabis today is so much stronger than it was were younger it's incredibly dangerous these words incredibly dangerous it's like i feel this nonsense and i'm this is again a man who can't see describe a kaleidoscope this is a person who doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about a guy who's credibly straight and he's is describing something and it's always negative ignore for every artist ignore every person who tells you it makes food taste better and make sex feel ignore all of that all these people that are recording all these positive things and
focus on what is most likely bullshit if you if you go by personal experience like what we all know if someone is having like psychotic episodes because of marijuana i have got to think they're going to have psychotic episodes anyway i gotta think marijuana just got them there but they were already far i mean i would i would have to assume just knowing my own personal experience with the drug when someone who hasn't had an experience with a drunken they're talking about it it's mad ning it's a crazy person talking is like where are your bodies where are these numbers well these people are there cultural icons who were paid to pay too that's a very important warranty right not just got paid by the pharmaceutical companies paid by the pharmaceutical companies the media everybody else to put out a certain meme a certain message and so you shouldn't be surprised i mean i mean that's just you know this is driving crazy though
but when you see that if you i don't know it's enticement crate yeah it does i mean it drives me crazy but i'm sold and cynical and jaded didn't you know i mean it it's like i've done it dries it doesn't surprise me at all i mean i think the only solution is i'm not sure what the solution is the solution is to get the row word out to people somehow and that's what things like your program and other other channels well i feel like i do and you know i mean i liked plug errol you probably yeah know about heroin wonderful people we're doing a good job of bringing actual facts you know the table and so we need more resources like that yes they're not pro or anti right they're pro fact yes which is what i admire about the
yeah in trip reports are very helpful for very helpful and they will say you know the danger this the you you need to be aware of these possible hazards and and and that's the only thing education the only solution to this is just say no you know a l l w that's the thing and this is an it's all about education you mentioned some money yeah it should be so i didn't disband it believe who's quote is that just so you know i think it's timothy leary should be online someone should have a cafepress shirt ready to go i'll be able to get off on amazon dot com right after this but you know the thing is it it's really all about education it's it's about empowering people to make an warm decisions about what kind of substance so there gonna use under what circumstances what intentions are there's a protocol there's a way to you
these things in a positive way in any way to use them destructively yeah i'm i'm fond of i mean i i always tell my students there is no such thing as a bad drug or a drugs they don't have moral qualities human beings have moral qualities there are plenty opportunities to misuse of drug or use a drug in a bad way that's not the drugs fault it simply has the pharmacological chem cool properties that it has poison isn't evil it's just point it's all about how people use it it's human behavior is what we need to focus on and that's what drug education doesn't focus on it it talks about the draw eggs almost as though they were demons are pathogens the like they have some kind of independent existence of a
evil virus or something they're not it's the way people use them and what what needs to happen with drug education is it out they don't want to admit this but here's here's the bald truth it's not about teach telling people do not use drug right i mean they say that's gotta be the message and that's the only message true drug education has got to tell people how to use drugs that's the difference how old if you you know if you choose to use a psychoactive substance that and here's a way to use it you know here's you do do maximize the benefit of it and minimize the harm harm simply simply you know but drug education doesn't institutionalize programs that are tell people how to use drugs is that funny
it's funny i mean it's stupid we expect people to learn how to drive a car we encourage responsible drinking in whatever that is someone that one instead you know we we say we encourage responsible use it's not that people to use it in a responsible way well i think we're big on people figuring out shit for themselves which is why we send people out into the world essentially with almost no knowledge whatsoever about sex and love when you're young you just sort of have to stumble into it at your most vulnerable and confused time same same issues apply right yeah to sex right sex education and drug ducation r jokes the way they're currently practice that is that's a joke and was also a joke is just the the does the raising of human beings i
i think so many people in this country are being raised by people were essentially children their entire life they never really did develop a true understanding of themselves or of their place in the world or an objective sense of this whole thing in the right the the great mystery of it all that's never conveyed and then they raise children the children have to somewhere another wake up and go okay nobody knows what the is really going on here this is we we live in a world of madness momentum and it just continues on the same path even though everyone knows it's crazy but can you a mansion i mean how many people can step out of that framework you know it's rare it's i mean if you're an entertainer so if you grow up if you're if you're raised in a religious household you know especially a fundamentalist household you encouraged to think about very much right heavily discouraged heavily discouraged you're encouraged to this is
you need to believe and all this other stuff is you know heresy and you know you're condemned if if you think about that so i really i mean well i don't know i said i mean we could get off for another forty minutes on anti religious rails to say and just do it don't say it well it's the it's ideologies the i any ideologies is that the issue is when someone is thinking about what they should do and it's already written for them subscribe to this one everybody situation is different everybody's life is different your wants and needs are different and instead of all these different ideas of what we're supposed to do and not supposed to do and what is evil and what is good we've long lost the ability to figure out what kind of an impact what we're doing has another people and judging that first and foremost and that i think is a very very much such a religious anna psychedelic principle that
that idea the idea of looking at everything is as how it's affecting the other people around you first and he did that no one would ever impose that kind of restrictions on your children because if you were truly looking at the development of children the first thing it says well i don't want to fuck this kid up you know instead of suppressing this kid and having this unbelievable resistance which every god damn human being is ever had ever will tell someone not to do something they want to do it when you are out of control them they want to break free when you're controlling person they want to pierce their nose and go fucking crazy for a it's it's it's the same all throughout humanity so we should have we should will figure that out by now well some have and some do but do you know i mean for you to be able to say that to have that perception a million how to have a before you well and you had hey you have to be an exceptionally enlighten open minded person you know what media if you're or comedian or for someone yeah x actually who pushes
envelope right who really who who the profession of out of stepping out of the box or trying to look at things from you know a broader perspective but if your person who i if you raised in a strict religious household those are your children are going to be raised in that household and you never really looked the you know you never take the blinders off because you know there's all sorts of bad stuff out there and you you just don't want to know about it ten you know and that's the problem you know of the ideologies the other problem is the predetermined patterns of thinking i mean one of the things i like to say i think that psychedelics are extremely valuable with respect to you know sometimes i talk about faith one of the things that's interesting about psychedelics is they don't require faith right i mean religious belief tenants are usually
partially that on this idea that here's a whole bunch of things that you should believe and there's not a shred of evidence for any of this but you must have faith my son right that this is why right why should you have faith you know chances are it's a lie you know we know that the religions have been scamming us for centuries that scientology oh no there there legit sure their lunch yet right trying to join scientology is when they were saying he knows i seen working my way in but thing is with psychedelics faith is an impediment you don't have to have faith we can
have what you need to have is courage but what do you say to the people the cynics the you know the people who would look at the psychedelic experiences and say ok you are glorifying an you're over exaggerating what's essentially a hallucination your visual cortex is being bombarded with these foreign chemicals you're seeing things that aren't there but all this is just your brains need to make something profound out of what's essentially a malfunction a mile funk so if you're thinking a malfunction of your visuals and you sort of attached all this importance to it after the experiences over well a point yeah that's the cynical point of view but to that i would reply that you know what we call ordinary reality ordinary consciousness even consensus reality is essentially a hallucination
right the reason drugs work is because we are made of drugs you know and whether or not we're on drugs or not our brains are creating you know this reality which we know does not resemble the real world whatever that is i mean the instruments of our physics and so and tell us that the world is a quantum world it's full of vibration that doesn't look a thing like this let adam so when we see heart a lot of water brain does is synthesize a hallucination essentially create a model of the world we proceed to live in i mean the world that we you and i share and everyone shared this is a model of the world this is a model reality not the real reality the real reality is completely unknowable and will always remain so so for people to say well you've just yeah you
disturbed your brain chemistry in a novel way and you've tuned into a different channel essentially you're still working with the model whether it's a model of the world experience through the lens of a drug or whether it's experience through the in of no sober conscious perception it's still a biochemical artifact in a sense our brains create this we live inside of it you know and that's so the what i would say to those people that it's not that you know there is some kind of objective reality which we're immersed in one where not on drugs it's more that on drugs all the time you know our brain is a organ that happened it churn out drugs you know which we called neurotransmitters and hormones and that's what
brains run on so all all you do when you take an external drug is you tweak one or more of those sets of receptors that that the rounds are talking to and you know he give us some lightly distorted signal from what we we have come except as ordinary reality there is no ordinary reality are we don't know what it is we we it's forever unknowable in terms of our subjective is a very ceramic sense yes it does there's a very strange desire to discount something you can't like put on a scale he can't like yeah bring it back and show it to someone but essentially most of what you experience in your everyday life is just that it's just an experience you're seeing things you're feeling things you're traveling you're taking in information but we have this real need a lot of people to discount the things that happen
discount the the vision of the second experience the hallucinations though the visuals the the the profound impact on the sounds even though those are experiences that you are taking in as an individual as a human being is an entity you're taking those in there they're dismissed their discounted because you know you can't you can't hear them you can't you can't paint them you can't you know there's nothing there you have nothing there you can't experience although significant to you well yeah but now i mean that's part of the task i think is to be able to bring something back from that place and people do i mean i think that's a lot of what psychedelic art it is and these sort of creative interfaces it's not the people go wouldn't take psychedelic drugs and never produce see the thing those experiences influence them profoundly and you
not be able to exactly reproduce them but given the technology that we have access to you can come pretty darn close you know with multimedia technologies and computer graphics and uh stuff and it may be that you know well i mean i think technology is only going to get better as we evolve you know toward it may in ten or fifteen years you won't have to take psychedelic drugs because we'll have pro technologies that just do the same thing or you maybe it is that you you know you take one psychedelic drug you take a capsule and its nano machine that will on dim and produce any kind of altered state that you want to call it
one of the more of sassy airy but also within the realm of possible that's the scary part is that it's not just science fiction one a fastening concepts that sir terrence had was the the the concept of the singularity as he saw it you know the the tech logical singularity it little bit different than the kurzweil and a lot of these features soft he thought it was very likely going to be a time machine our something along those lines something that will the we created where there's a new technology where time ceases to be linear would did you did you rap your head around that like how did you feel about that one yeah we did that mean we love to to play with idea and you know in fact we used to you don't terry used to speculate that you know two thousand and twelve that the singularity will be triggered the mall but that time travel is invented an every
but and and everyone after that will of course want to migrate back to the a journal moment when time travel was invented so suddenly they'll be all these time machines condensing out of nowhere instantly instantly everything changes right right everything changed i want to rap their head around that idea that infinite time and distance into the future would all be able to access the moment the first time she was invented that's right all come back time travel would certainly change everything if you could do that don't know i mean physics pretty much tells us that time travel is technically possible but old see if you have access to manipulate energies that are like
they'll be way beyond us for quite a while you know black hole level racks of energy and that kind of thing hundred do fear running things with time but there's always a possibility that you know if there will be a break through right you know for now i will it's is that we're going to we're never gonna stop my my thought about human ingenuity and being in our constant desire for innovation is that i don't ever see it stopping it seems to be a part of what the human animal is and what does here so when if someone like i do remember his name the guy out of university of connecticut who was the lead time travel expert so the fascinating character really is like a guy in a spiderman book because his father died when he was a young boy so he became determined to build a time machine to go back and save his father oh yeah really fascinating i cannot remember his name i will eventually but he
is his ronald mallett his his idea i think was that once he had really thoroughly research time travel he realized that you would never be able to go back before the the time machine was invented that you never exactly able to go backwards exactly but you can go back to that mall yeah well that's yeah terrence had that idea yeah long before this guy did and this guy was like you know he's a legit peer reviewed scientists on and i mean he's had like he has a a peer reviewed paper on the science behind time travel and they all agree that yeah if you could generate this insane amount of power you could be able to do it you could do it i find it amazing that terrence had this idea as well like really long before it was like sort of a mainstream thought well you know you can attribute that to it in a sense what we were immersed in when we were kids i mean we were both compl sweetly suck
into science fiction we were very much immersed in science fiction hg wells novel the time chancellor you know the time machine i mean that was a huge louis on me i probably read that sucker tanner for i read that when i was a kid yeah well i was on a holy fascinated by by that light all the versions of the movie as well wells at least two hours at least two urgency i versions i think i think the first one was possibly a little better but yeah so those ideas you know we're out there and an again in other psychedelics in shamanic states you can type travel have you read graham hancock's new novel
no very interesting not hang yeah well you should read it i would love to ferry office i've read is non fiction stuff and this is his first novel but it's all about he essentially a time bridge between the show monic persons seventeen thousand years ago and a modern counter our ten there're communicating across there in tangled literally quantum entangled in it it's it's quite fascinating not awful he had fun with it i find it amazing that we've we've been able to for the most part not destroy ourselves with nuclear power because the nuclear power in a lot of the ways the big impact the biggest impact that i was not just powering cities but destroying them and on the fact that we've sort of figured out a way to put a cap on that and really despite all the conflict in the world we haven't had a nuclear event like that since the 1940s right
i wonder how much more evolved we would have to be to be responsible for the actual use of a time machine i mean how how much more evolved would we have to be before we could have something like that it wouldn't be the president has access to the button it would be now the president has access to the hole in the universe you know i mean what how do we decide whether or not we're going to do this how do we decide who we go back in time and save you know when if eh happened in the news do we have like a congressional meeting do we go back in time and well just thinking person i mean i think that's that's missing you're standing up with the nature of time right i mean if i mean one of the reasons time travel is impossible supposedly that kind of time is because you can't do those things you can't go back and prevent the kennedy assassination you know because you
proliferate another timeline and things to at least one more but then you know physicists tell us and the current is everything you do precipitate zero proliferates multiple timelines six please explain that because duncan and i have been trying to wrap our heads around that one and we've we we brought it up to each other couple times the i'd it's sort of a an abstract idea in my head but every decision you make literally brings up creates a different universe created different universe and not only every decision you ever make if i understand it it extends to you know every collab so far of a waveform every you know collision of adams there and free of them you're free of fear no matter how many scuol or insignificant that were not even aware of proliferates multiple multiple time frames
it doesn't make sense obviously we can't rap our head around this and it may be that we are you know that maybe we're not maybe not confined to one of these timelines where were at maybe we're living simultaneously an infinite number of timelines god so hard to wake up here yeah it's hard to wrap here the idea of fractal universe is an infinite amount of fractal universes and they're constantly changing and moving like like a a tide filled with cells like a tide of cell just washing over the world over and over back and forth it never ends but why not what leave why why reality why this this is bizarre enough as it is thanks
i was said to be like if you don't if you you know you don't want to have a psychedelic experience you are whether you like it or not it's called life because of you existed in some sort of all logical continuum of real objective thought reasoning and you had to exist and and a life in today and the human world two thousand and that was my point that's what we were saying earlier the brain is a machine that simulates a reality that we live in yeah you know and then so so it it just is i mean it's our it it it it x the raw data of experience and it mixes it together in the way that and it stroup said in two something comprehensible so the brain is as much a processor of this data i'm outside is it i mean i don't i think the question whether the braid generates consciousness is one of the one of the things
darryl science has to confront and i think the evidence is that it does it's more of real detector of conscious what evidence is this why ever do that with evidence is this the the the brain detect concert is the well it's not all of the evidence of normal ordinary states you know these are dimensions that for sharp busemann for psychedelics they present as real i mean does the dream all those up why is why are there commonalities between those states you know between let i mean you don't have to be fans terence and dennis mckenna to take the opti it have similar experiences you know too so i think i just don't think that we really have definitive way to say that all of what we experience arises from the brain it's more that call christmas is
built into the structure of space time in a certain and our brains are detectors and processors much in the way of that television is a detector of a signal so the signal processes in a way that's comprehensible and puts it out there on the screen so the ego and the personality and the lifestyle you choose and what have you as you're making your way through this this dimension is the same just clothing that you wear to shield you from the great outdoors of reality essentia lee yeah it's a model that you create it model that you create and and it helps you get through this it helps you get through it and it apps closely enough close enough to some external reality out there that you can navigate your not stepping off cliff at cliffs or walking in front of buses so it has a definite survival value and this enough overlap between what
you're consensual world is in mine is and ours is that we can put talk to each other we can live in the same space it out to a certain extent it's a fascinating concept and it it really is and that's one of the more profound aspects of the psychedelic experiences the stripping away of that personality and culture an and everything and getting to some weird strange source getting to this strange thing that exist clear thought without for a minute you get to turn the circuit board over right you begin to turn you get to turn it over and see how it's wired i think that's one of the big you full interesting things about psychedelic some and particularly diem thi you know t m t just rips the curtain back and you get to see the raw data of experience
and how it's all it's everything everything memories people you talk to fragments you songs just whatever things are swimming around in your head use they're all going into you know through this funnel or something and it's coming out all up tape together some way and that kind of a coherent picture of of reality but the m t strips that back he gets a step you get to see it from the other side briefly how it's how it's worked you know the reality generating machine if you will that's what you see dmt what is your thoughts or what are your thoughts on alien abductions an ufo experiences and do you think that these are endogenous dumps of dan t that it's most likely what these people are experiencing is some sort of a
overflow or something you know no i don't i mean i think that you know i think that's true depends work on this where high doses of dmt can in you know in some people reliably induce these these abduction type in catteries we know they're not you know standing side a highway in new mexico and watching a ufo land there in a hospital bed you know with an iv installed but they're having these types of experiences for those who don't know what you're talking about it's rick strassman's work is a book dmt the spirit molecule it's all about the clinical studies and things i did with clinical studies with dmt and strassmann reported but in many of his subject who were given high doses of dmt they had experiences that were
similar if not identical to the classic alien abduction type experience so then you do think that that's what these people were having their having an dodges dumps whether sleeping this just something's happening and that's no i don't think that not necessarily i think that i think that there i think that what d m t does is it lets you poke your head temporarily into another tension so when these people are having these ufo awful experiences you think that other dimensions poking its head into ours and yes something like so you somehow the membrane is thin and you know whether it's you going there them going here but there's you know there there are interfaces between what we call ordinary reality which is an ordinary at all an these other these alternate real some occasionally they come together you know
the membrane stretches and then you get these types of is there an interesting with the general true i mean if that's true that model is you know the usual model of experiences reduction this is like the brain is generating all of this an that's where it's coming from and you everything we think we know about the world is based on that premise if this other premises true then we have to reexamine our most fundamental assumptions how it is you know how all the world is the issue isn't isn't part of it though that all these abduction experiences a good percentage of them happen at night
happen a lot of it was people aren't that they're not happening what people are like monday morning on the highway right work it's right happening while you're supposed to be sleeping well you're right it's producing dmt in the first place takes act do you think that the dmt could possibly i mean this is complete speculation but act as a door way where the actual real true entity can come through so these people that are having these ufo ducks experiences you know they are still lying in their bed they are actually still having this real experience yeah i do i mean and if talk to charlene's people that deliberately induce these states for exactly this reason to communicate with these nonhuman intelligences that give them useful information about all kinds of things i mean the shamans are just matter of fact about it and i'll just say well yeah what did you think it was you know this is the way
reality is then that that's where the cynics always coming and where is this information what do you bring back could someone please bring back and it unsolvable equation that fast maddox that's a tough one yeah yeah that's what what what do you think like that's it if you had a point to anything that's been brought back from the psychedelic expect a you know i'm not a the the francis crick thing that's disputed right whether or not francis crick use the device lee is saw the double helix while i was on lsd well he said that he did finally on his death bed on its deathbed there's no recording you know right it's right right how much of that is just a very mall us right we are totally out front about his lsd experiences contributed to his insights about this but you're right it's different call to measure bring something back and terrence was he has talked about he used to what he was taking mushrooms do exactly this get this
i dialed dialogue going with the mushroom and and you know insist that the mushroom tell him something that he couldn't possibly know you know and the mushroom was all is very cagey about it and didn't cough it up when you think well if i tell you that you will need that sounds like the imagination to maine i mean if i was the cynic i would say well that's obviously your imagination that 'cause it can't concoct anything that doesn't exist or something you couldn't possibly know it doesn't have the resources because it's coming from your own mind well that would be that would be the criticism and out of that comes something like this the time wave zero i mean i would submit that the time move zero was an artifact from this other dimension but do we really under and what it was i mean it was a conceptual artifact in a certain sense it was my dear so even certainly came from left field
regardless of whether or not it actually is some sort of a map of time it will certainly is a thirteen lunar cycle counter it well certainly as that came from a psychedelic experience that the knowledge of that actually l sensually that seems to be something that you can at least that aspect of it seems very unfortunate that it's connected with this idea of a map of time which makes people stick their is up in the air because of they just looked at it for that just the the teaching being a calendar and and on a lost count or non right calendar indisputably it's a calendar or you can use it that way i mean the mathematics is clear it's like you don't begin to postulate that this actually you know describes this archer of time that's where i have a problem with it because for one thing you know time wave zero completely orders relativity and all the aspects of time that go into to that so you well how it
claims that you know it claims that this map of time describes the straw sure of time everywhere you know in all parts of the universe but we know from relativity that it all depends on the reference frame right so you know so it's not clear so like a ship traveling the speed of light someone aborted experiences time at a different level it at this point is different way how do you come inside how to how to the catholic you can't reconcile it just doesn't account for you know i mean the problem with the time wave autistic over this conversation update i'm trying to write my head around it while we're talking about it i'm wave in my in my opinion is that it's not it can't be disproved we need again jesus and so that science can't disprove anything you know
can't disprove will science can disprove things they can't prove it not unique events ride unique events happened yeah it in other words in other words terrance or whoever created the time wave theory never defined these are the criteria that will invalidate this theory and science depends on in order to qualify as a theory you have to say what's going to invalidate it is it a what are the criteria that's come out take the founder tions out from under this theory that either means you have to chuck the theory completely or you have to modify it so the model fits the data better right and he was never able to or he never dear and i don't think he was really able to define what would invalidate the theory so it's a non testable theory so it's not a theory
so when it's just an idea it's an interesting idea but it isn't a theory it's not something you can disprove and so it's it's useful as an idea but it's but in some ways it's i mean you know you've got if you wanted to be scientific if you want to call this a theory in the scientific sense you have to define what's going to disprove it what i meant that science can't disprove things what i meant is i can't disprove like really unique events like the idea of a ufo actually existing and then disappearing like once it's here and gone if there's no physical evidence if it's not i mean how do you how can you disprove a you know event like that but when you yeah you don't i mean you don't i mean it doesn't mean they don't exist though right they do exist sure so nothing exists i mean i always thought the what j
wild hynix the ufo researcher famous ufo researchers said about ufos he said i don't know if ufos are real or not but i know absolutely one hundred percent that ufo experiences are real and that's the data that's the data that you have to investigate i think that i think that's a very perceptive thing to say especially coming from him he's coming from here he j allen hynek was a guy who actually work for operation or project blue book and he was assigned by the government to go and research different our sightings and somewhere along the line he cited listen i'm going to just do this and he stopped
for the government and just started spending all of his time researching ufos he was absolutely convinced he was always clear that what he was investigating where ufo experiences because that was the data that he had to work with you know that's absolutely one hundred percent true if experiences do occur whether those are confabulation of you know the mind and or whether they're you know whether they're x terrestrial origin extradimensional large and i don't think we can really say but did you ever have any sort of alien experience did you ever have any sort of extraterrestrial physical contact no i can't say i have you know other than being smeared over the entire universe yeah but that was that was
that was my head that was it was extraterrestrial but but terrence did you know at lecturer he did of course there was no one else to witness this eight and he i write about that in the book i actually quote at length action from true hallucinations in which he describes this and i have put out i don't doubt that it took place i mean there was all sorts of anomalous things taking place archer and then again it goes back to the fact that you guys were in ingesting the most incredible psilocybin mushrooms everyday all day i mean well but but the really interesting stuff didn't start until after we'd stay
not that well even after you stop that though how much of that shit was still floating around your head i mean you guys were talking about crazy quantities are you to say did you ever sober up are you still high from that well in some sense we're still high from it 'cause that experience you never know you're always integrated and i mean it's rather strange to me that you know it's like that was one thousand nine hundred and seventy one so that was forty years ago and one of the more interesting things that terrence said about psilocybin which it was a real mind blower was first of all how closely it relates to normal human neurochemistry is that psilocybin is like almost exactly the same as chemicals that our own brain produces an very alien in that form that form the form that exists whatever the molecule structure of psilocybin as it's the only
similar with the way it exists there's no got something similar to it or there's something like it that exists in the the organic world other than our own brains well yeah well that's not quite true but i think what he was trying to say that is psilocybin is is only found and the fungal kingdom right as far as we know it's never been found in a higher plant although lots of tryptamines dmt is all over the place and if i remember derivatives but psilocybin and psilocin and do not occur as far as we know out i the fungal world outside the world of mushrooms why that should be hard to say maybe it will be discovered in a higher client tomorrow or next week but i kind of doubt it you know i don't want to get too much into the chemistry but i do think it's i think that you know this this touches on another you know
remarkable aspect of our universe of biological being which is that these trip to games dmt five methoxy dmt buffo kneen psilocybin citizen do empty itself is two steps from tryptophan tryptophan as amino acid that this universal it's part of the twenty that go into protein so it's not essential molecule of life tryptophan is the malik the enzymes that convert tryptophan to dmt there are two primary enzymes amino decarboxylase aromatic amino acid decarboxylase an methyl transferase is what they're called called i don't know if your audience
there's about this but the point is too trivial steps from tryptophan leads to dmt right and so dmt you don't go the biosphere is i traded with dmt it's not an uncommon michael at all it's found in probably thousands of plants that's found in animals that's found in fungi it's everywhere i think it's interesting i don't know what it means except you know stepping away from science for a minute strict science but the maybe this is kind of a subtle message that nature is trying to send to the month
he's so that's why the empties everywhere yeah look guys just look around the corner right fall or do you it's all there if i remember what turns just said was what he found for us it was what he was alluding to was that the psilocybin may have come here and from an asteroid that it could survive in a vacuum when he you i think it was the for us i believe in the four position describing the the molecular structure of cells i will psilocybin as far as for related transform position and you said it was the only thing that was like that is that it's the only one we found so far it's the only phosphorylated in dole that we found in well that and some close derivatives which also occur in the
does that make any sense than that that could have possibly come here we know that what's called pants beria's other discounts birmingham panspermia is how old the they believe that amino acids essential building blocks from life may have traveled here from asteroids and that may be how life is seated or an order i mean i suggest in the book actually people have to read the book because yes the half right where i unpacked this so i actually have a section in the book called reflections on lecturer at and they trying to not only am packet for the reader but try and look at it myself from the standpoint of forty years once you know after the experience and say what was going on and what sam's and what might have been going on was was it simply too you know nerdy guys who went to the amazon took too many drugs and and had you know these experiences and that
end of story or was there really something else going on and the whole issue touches on what we were talking about the evolutionary potential evolutionary significance of mushrooms and it may be the what we are is a million year multi me been here long biotechnology experiment essentia lee where you know if a supertech logical civilization bio technological civilization with plenty of time on its hands and a certain perspective if they wanted to take an ecology and see what happened when they see did these molecules into the ecology you know and then watched it unfold you know perhaps manipulating the way things unfolded it's almost like
they wanted to kind of yeah i guess create the conditions where intelligence and consciousness could arise and then see what the effects were in a certain sam prometheus style prometheus style prometheus as we all agree was pretty lame but something like that you said it first something something along those lines where if you see the ecology with tryptophan and the enzymes then this this thing it's going to be all over the place and then you know i probably predate the appearance of complex nervous systems but you know we know for example that the serotonin receptors here's our evolutionarily the oldest receptors that we known the oldest neurotransmitter receptors so
well i don't know i mean it's tempting to speculate a bit it's very sexy too it's sexy it's come from certain way to think there is actually in overlord of overlord that south their cd in intelligence throughout the galaxy i mean what a cool idea you yourself knowing so much of a biology when i'm at the complex processes that occur on this planet that are completely what what i wouldn't say they're orchestrated by nature but like this the parasitic relationships are really complex ones that parasites have with like the like water while worm that gets inside of a grasshopper grows then convince the grass i would commit suicide so it can be born into the water we we know about these weird crazy relationships that exist right exactly without a note so is it so well but this is a kind of an example of that right on the galactic scale exactly you know if if
where are fungi in nature and actually your cordyceps in years supplement is exactly that you know it's biology it grows on caterpillars there are there are some species that will grow on ants and you probably heard how they work they will infect the app at a certain point the whole story they will put these mycelium my will of the ant's brain and trigger to go from the base of the leaf of of the blade of grass to the tip then it will kill it and hello it's right and then and then they can sporty late right and will over grow the body in release the sports but it's induced the amp to go from the least optimal place to distribute spores to the most talked doubles incredible so it's controlled
so that that's a phenomenon that's an intelligent nature so kind of spreading intelligent so why is it so far fetched to think that there is a galactic super racer maybe it's that infects complex nervous systems we may be missing in our ecology that that they've induces us to you know invent culture and language of technology and eventually build starships and get off this but and do what they're doing and do with their continue it said that so the the most advanced form of like forming life and other places
maybe or may maybe just also it just could be that's i mean this this is giving it so far we should probably add to the interview far down the what ifs ladders you had collected over the lord sending spaceships filled with mushrooms yeah that's that's like next okay no you have to remember what that means then we have to remember that we exist you have to remember that we're putting a rover on mars taking photographs and possibly contaminate hannah how unlikely this whole thing is yeah that we should even be here i mean i mean one of terence's favorite phrases and i think it's true we should always remember what jbs hilton said you know the universe is not only strange
than you suppose it's stranger than you can suppose i love that quote and i love that he used to say queer because that's yes actually i ain said i was gonna say actually he said queer yeah i can't use that term is the funny that they did they took queer they took clear that that's what you need it the universe is a queer thing is it doesn't we can't exist in that as well they know anything that attaches to homosexual men can have a gay old time anymore with the red states it with what your versus just a fast stranger stranger no like you can't say have a gay old time the flintstones had gay old time in their fucking song you can have that anymore we are so sensitive with such little babies in the middle of all this information were trying to chop words away we try to take him take him away so you know i think i think that yeah i i think that ultimately you know people say well what can we conclude from all this and what have you learned from taking psychedelics you know for
forty years and all and the answer is kind of disappointing it will be disappointing to some people which is that exactly this the world is a marvelous place much more marvelous than we can imagine you know an we don't know very much you know i mean our knowledge is so restricted and i'll and i think that that's what you learn after all this time and this is what ayawaska you know my main plant teacher always insists remember you don't know you know don't get don't get arrogant is you don't know shit you know you just don't know very much and so it's like you could say well i don't know shit an i feel really stupid but it also clears the decks to appreciate things and
remind ourselves that we don't know very much but it clears the decks for learning it means there's so much left to be understood and marveled about and thought if you don't accept the position the position that you don't know shit and then enjoy all the information there was take in all the fascination in the wonder too many people are trying to control the position and they're trying to control it and pretend that they do no shit and that's the big mistake that's where the knee jerk reaction to denying global climate change comes from it's just a desire of insecure people to try to rationalize and control things that we to the controlled and the institutions want to do religion politics corporations the whole thing like we have a model we don't we have a corner on the truth the way we think about it is the way it is you know anybody who challenges that is is a hair it
now how long did it take you after launcher era before you jump back on the horse it seems like if i got smeared across the entire cosmos for a couple weeks and i don't remember how i shit or smoke cigarettes i might just fucking quit okay but not you how much time did you take off for you jump back on well i don't know some people would never have jump back on but but how much time did it take after four you will it to you know i could open a can of tuna fish and do like normal thing no no no no no no no no no no no no i mean how long before you had another psychedelic experience another site well it was probably a couple of years it makes sense it wasn't that long it wasn't really that long that and then that's a long time yeah did you like before you did it be like what the am i doing i really wanna get spread across the universe while i yeah all right well yeah i mean i have i have some some worry
it's about it when i went back to it but but not really because there were so many other circumstances the psychedelic was just a part of it a lot of it the reason it happened was because we set ourselves up into this you course conceptual or i don't know what you call it cognitive box we set ourselves we painted ourselves into this corner in terms of our predictions about what was going to happen you know because it was all about i am right a lot of it was about time and so when we leading up to doing the experiment we thought that well the reason all this strange stuff is happening is because a few hours up ahead in the future we've done this spiro man it is succeeded and so what we're giving it is the back wash from the future like a pro she singularity you know we were getting them back
wash from the future and that's why everything it's warping reality it literally is warping reality as we approach this thing so we went into it with the attitude that something had to happen something physics shattering and we were trying to overturn literally the laws of physics came into it the idea that something had to happen and guess what something happened just wasn't what we predicted would you just want a cuckoo for a couple we went cuckoo for a couple of weeks yeah exactly and we it's more than just cuckoo it was this you know this coordinated experience of terrence and self were we were linked and we understood that one person is we coming mirror images of each other almost like a photograph and it's negative and one one entity
going forward in time of another was going backward in time and you know out of our we we have the whole framework were made sales it might not make sense now yeah well it doesn't it doesn't i mean it does house it does but i'm lying down but i mean i get i get a yeah it does but i would i nothing i'm lying i mean i'm said i do under stand that you're trying to express something that i can understand right did you have a lot of experience is or any experiences where you saw ancient motifs mayweather it's hieroglyphs or egyptian or i i've heard people that say they've seen aramaic or arab type writing and what seems to be maybe perhaps the experiences of other people that have taken the same sort of psychedelic drugs and but it's a stored collected experience like that i know that was one of the things that parents believed that when you uh
taking psilocybin you're not just taking psilocybin year sort of conjoining the experiences of everybody who's ever taken that drug ever did you feel that you being that launcher era at any point yeah yeah is subsequently i have had i have had those kinds of impressions yeah i mean i mean i think it's interesting that you know one of the things that when when we when we came back from watch where one of the priorities at our life was to out how to grow those mushrooms right so that we can re access right but i mean then their was partly you know there was partly a mercenary motives but there was also the the real quality for us we want to other people to have these experiences to see if they confirm
what we were experience i mean where we just nuts or do other people have the similar kind of experience it turns out they do you know so that's evidence again for the up qnective reality of some of these dimensions or the reality i don't know if it's subjective but you know what i'm saying you don't have be terrence or dennis you don't have to know what we talk about or believe in what we talk about you can take mushrooms under the right circumstances in the dark five grams pay attention and you will go to the same place many people go to the same place do you think that that also explains why the indy ayawaska experience is a lot of jaguars and a lot of snakes in a lot of that type of just to them that's the dimension that's the dimension that's real for those people and it's just you know
it i mean it it is to us it seems in plausable an unlikely but to them it's like it's a part of their everyday reality they just accept it i mean it's much more matter of fact yes there are are these realms there are these entities you can get there with alaska and you know if you look at if you look at the paintings of pablo amaringo for example or others you know i mean he had ability to paint that realm as best he recollected but that's a tremendous contribution 'cause he provided the window you know into that cosmology you can sort of look into that conceptual place without actually take it as ayahuasca it's gray as does a alex grey a similar kind of thing yeah all in pablo's iconography all of these spirits that
see and ufos incidentally and plants and animals and all that they all have now aims these are not things that he dreamed up these are part of that because malls that he is able to to pick what is his name again pablo emma ringo ma are right and i got to check him out i've never heard of this guy before now i believe i've seen his are but a new design you know her name and more ringo he has a book that he put together with luis eduardo luna a good friend of mine blue is louise wrote the forward to my book oh i absolutely guy seen this guy before how easy stuff so amazing but yeah that's so he recollects his visions and was able to put them out to canvas yeah when it when a guy can do that like alex grey especially some of his images they reappear it gyptian they appeared it
he slash egyptian you know and i've always wondered like what what it what is that that you're seeing when you're when you're saying this sort of ancient motif hello did the it's teams uh for whatever reason it seems like a crazy assertion that your your accessing the experiences of all these people that have ever done this this drug but is it any weirder than cell phones you know as at any weirder than the ability to google something not subscribed and where it is so early not only within a hobbit in three days i mean you could say yeah you could say you know well it's a similar experience because these mushrooms activate the same receptors of everybody and we all have a similar brain architecture and all that at night i think that to a certain extent that's part of it but that's not the that's not the whole story i mean again that comes back to whether you know
the brain is generating this stuff or whether it's actually you know sort of just making the membrane thinner so that you can look at it did you have any experience with sensory deprivation tanks i haven't had very much with that no wow that's so crazy that seems like it be right up your alley you think so yeah i haven't experimented with have you been interested at all not really i find that the substances l r seem to reliably do it but the i should should look into i'm big fan are you oh yeah even just for relaxation for just for the body do you do it in conjunction with psychedelics or yes yeah so in that eating eating cannabis is my favorite one yeah eating cannabis and getting to the part where you're you're like the wettest
so i try to describe is when you're so high that you feel like the the parallel dimension the neighboring dimension is like a waterfall got your nose touching the water and you're right about to push through the other side that's when you get into tank so right when you just you know that there's a moment when you feel like you've eaten too much like you had a pop browning like this is not a comfortable feeling this is a terribly i definitely too much that's when you get the tank interesting and the the complete lack of sensory input from the tank along with that just blows the whole experience out of the water i've had some of the wildest trips of my life from i'm doing that the sensory deprivation tank on its own can put you in some crazy places but but it but on its own but it's really good for his relaxation it's amazing for like loosening you up and just
soothing the body and it's an excellent source of magnesium too because the salt in the water it's epson salts so it's one of the best ways for your body to absorb a good amount of magnesium but i just it's one of the things that i've never understood why people didn't get into it i don't need a lily john lilly was the inventor of it yeah and he used one on a regular basis i just i never i was want to know why that didn't catch on i never heard karen talk about it either now he he didn't he didn't use it as far as i know i don't know it's such an amazing resource me because i was always in a silent darkness yeah well exactly take it seoul side with in in near total darkness this kind of a century devastation i think that is so you're still in your body i mean right deal are not in this amniotic places you know have you ever tried mushrooms soon as isolation tank
no i have not done well no i did it i have done at once but i have not done a big dose i haven't i haven't done a lot but the muslims even to be a good place for good yeah the problem is i have kids and the wannabe blasted on my head nothing and then some some go wrong when you open the door and reality just hasn't tune back into you know you've got a plan your session you need somebody to look after our kids are you know ours that said it all that one of the things about cannabis those eating tentative if i get too high i can still deal with right around rises like a phone call i can call i can talk to people i can come back out of reality i can get back to be okay right and that combined with the the sensor dept tank is it's a pretty pretty profound experience but i think probably if you were into silent dark the thing about psilocybin those it pulls you out so much you almost don't even need a sensory dep tank it's almost like
right unnecessary that's unnecessary yeah but by itself but it would be interesting it would be interesting if your experience with those things you you go first call follow yeah well i have one i have one in my basement so i like to use it i use it all the time but even just like i said by itself just for relaxation just never understood why more people didn't want to have that just as a meditation tool is a tool for compe pleat lee getting alone with your thoughts and just separating yourself from any of the input of the body no it seems that it would be useful but terence wasn't into that but it was in the pot a serious regular basis of god yes man had the capacity for cannabis i've never seen anyone else is that
of the reason why he went on these rambling lectures is incredible when he would wind wind him up as some of the the great mp threes are available on the psychedelic salon of you you're familiar with so yeah great podcast and yeah renzo the guy who hosts it has just hour upon hour of terence's lectures amazing amazing stuff but was incredible is that you just you'll he would just go up there our and the wind them up put on stage roman for the microphone and he would just go on for hours right he could just wrap it out and now as you know it was i mean i'm sure it fuck a lot of that you know his inspiration what he was doing was actually what you know what he used to do i mean back before you told anybody knew about him sir whatever you know back in the berkeley days in the sixties you know he
love nothing more to to get a bunch of people in a room you know pass pass around hash or some kind of really strong dope something that would render everybody else completely speechless i couldn't say anything he would just regaled for our no and and he was and everybody was fascinated and he was totally coherent i mean everyone you know a lot of people they smoke a lot of cannabis they get quiet ride i'm one of those i can't wrap on cannabis very well but he just he could do it and then he found not only you know if it works for a bedroom full of people on his you know in his hippy crash pad on telegraph ave it will work for audiences all over the world so he turned it into a stick and a living at thank god he did you know 'cause because you know we have pull that out there think
he did as well because those recordings and the books and the lectures those experiences changed the entire direction of a lot of lives including mine absolutely mine yeah the first time i did the anti i'll i literally heard him saying something in the d m t trip i heard his voice rising something right it was it was just his impact i think is it was unbelievably profound that ability to relay those thoughts in this really compelling way if i mean i can't tell you how many gigs i've gone where i had to travel or how to draw and i just listen to psychedelic salon listen to one of the the lectures so compelling and fascinating and i think that opens up will completely new lines of thinking for a lot of people it does and you know it's interesting the the the you know the currency that this has
still out there isn't cheap this weird kind of immortality on the net what he said when you think about most of this was early 90s when he was talking about this but you can put a tape on and it's just is timely as though it were uttered yesterday he has this real feeling for the future and and you know people come up to me a lot of young people come up to me i've everything i learned i learned from terence mckenna and it was like before that my life was empty and now i understand that and you look at these people use it they couldn't have been more than eight or seven or eight twenty he was at the height of his career you know these people some of war in diapers when he was you know at the height of his career so they discovered him later somehow and he still had this in
well it's because it's so compelling it's a very completely viral thing i mean there's a lot of different people that have a lot of different ideas but they decide whatever for whatever reason it was a compelling i think it's a what if one of the great things that you're doing in in this book is you're not sure cutting anything and you know the way you describe your brother is with obviously with great love and respect and admiration but also great honesty and i that's that's very important i think it's it's really really important for recognizing his true contributions and king as the like all of us is a human being who is right now experimenting with all these ideas and sometimes they didn't the door it correct but that's the only way you get to those i do they have to sort of involve informing you have to keep playing with them and in the nature of that nature like full disclosure like what were the like if there's any glaring errors that he had made that people have you'd be
either repeated or that they have misinformation because of these glaring errors like what would it be what glaring errors and for any errors that like does you mentioned i don't know i'd have i'd have to think about you know i mean i think it is it is an effort to depict him honestly i i hope that people don't you know i hope the people see that you obviously do you know i'd love to a great deal i respected him a great deal and you know but we had our right full reason like all brothers you know we had our sibling rivalries so you know i mean i loved him deep lee i hated him deeply it you know that kind of dynamic goes on but when you said earlier that he would say something and you said well that didn't make any sense and you contradicted what you said earlier do you have anything specific well
he would always respond to that you know he didn't like me to go to his similar so much 'cause i was the only one that would ever challenge him everyone else is listening in sort of slack jawed fascination of his other indies complete lee you know wild ideas and i was the only one who would really ever get up and say well what you said twenty minutes ago doesn't make any sense and it contradicts what you say now and he would respond well consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds two minutes hello what a great quote right message board quote right this is actually i think it's all a waste mall by i think he was i think it was called the wall that's a great that was so the thing is terrence at like to have fun with idea and in some ways people took him to see
seriously and you know i mean there was a tendency on the part of some of his constituents to view him as a guru or you know even a cult figure to a certain extent i think he rejected all that he didn't want to be a guru he did see himself as a girl he wanted just to be like people the think for themselves you know that was the thing don't believe me but oh ok here's a whole bunch of really crazy ideas you know there's a great video out with a bunch of images and terence his words culture is your enemy there culture is not your friend yes cultures not your culture is not your very quick but it's so it's so powerful even to this day really it's so powerful that you you can listen to it and then watch cnn and not be affected in korea
s reassess the impact of modern media yeah exactly and that's a very that's a very valuable one because in fact culture isn't your friend and a lot of what what terence's point again think for yourself don't believe what anybody tells you it l m psychedelics are a challenge to that all these people that dismissed the psychedelic experience as you rightly point out they haven't had it you know or if they have they didn't pay attention you know so so their opinions count for nothing i mean they're like the people you know they like the dutch layton's makers who
bill telescopes but you know refused to look through the telescopes because that was a blasphemous act it's the same thing the brotherhood of the screaming the best it is available right now i have it in my hand it was all funded through kickstarter because people wanted to get this formation you you do you spend a year about a week we disco we talked about this but december in two thousand eleven right is when we has we're in contact through well yeah but i actually started well it took about eighteen months to write the book i started racing kickstarter money and april of twenty eleven and it's taken a year in six to write the book please ladies and gentlemen go out and buy this book it's fantastic is the brotherhood of the screaming abyss if you have not subscribed to the cycle salon on itunes go subscribe to that shit and go
get online and there's a millions of terrence is lectures and i don't say millions but at least one hundred there are available and their fantastic in their fascinating as is your book thank you very much for coming on here has been a real treat an an honor and a pleasure and i enjoyed every second of our conversation and if you want to do it again and will push this fucking thing till they out paper i should mention where it is at the easiest way to get it is amazon there's there's ebook just said those softcover books are on amazon you can order yes i got one of those kindles that's awesome just and it bang
thank you so much please i was literally in short this i did too and i i think great far yeah really has i think you blew a lot of people's minds too i gotta go back and review listening google some and and and think about some things because it was it was it was awesome is really a lot of fun thank you very very much is there any way people can give a website the of yes we have a website brotherhood of the screaming abyss dot com with that without the v and that they actually were opening up and new website exists but we're completely revamping it so that's already on line and just other day i launched dennisjmckenna dot com so here we go you're on twitter on twitter
residing m according to my daughter daughter nonsense i yeah access yeah you're one of those guys i know one of those guys ladies and gentlemen resisting change that's for existing she'll she'll give me on to it or something the wrong with the password i don't know ladies and gentlemen thank you very much of course we will be back this week will be back tomorrow with the great honey honey band who will be appearing at the end the world show with doug stanhope your ideas and myself that's december 21st two thousand and twelve at the wiltern theater like i said things is as of the starters podcasts was about a hundred tickets left for that the
thursday night the improv in hollywood you they could watch it live on you stream at used from the tv i will try to do it live if not it'll be recorded to be me a but we're gonna try to do a podcast upstairs and do a comedy show downstairs just like joey de as would be their ideas and most likely me most likely yeah well i i think i may try again ari or don i'm sorry i'm going to do but he's in town talking can do it right now i do it but yeah i'll get some people together some some quality desk waters if you want to buy the t shirts death squad dot tv if you want all this is this is actually this the higher primates showed exactly based on the based on the ground on terence's stoned ape theory it's a champ with a mushroom as mouse analysts left hand is a floating home and the right hand is the symbol for nuclear energy well that's just love letters letters okay come on son with a it is also going to a third eye with michael some metric shit coming out of it i'll get you one of these would you rock it
you bet what i take if we take a picture of you wearing this will sell it fucking thousand in these bitches ok alright listen find me very much but if you ever need anything promoted please let us know and again one more time folks the brotherhood of the screaming of this we will be back tomorrow with honey honey boo back tuesday with joey coco diaz on earth episode that's one episode oh shit bitches
so that's a great way to do it all right we love the shit out of you guys and will see you tomorrow bye bye
Transcript generated on 2019-10-18.