« The Joe Rogan Experience

#477 - Dennis McKenna & Joshua Wickerham

2014-03-28 | 🔗
Dennis McKenna is an ethnopharmacologist, author, and brother to well-known psychedelics proponent Terence McKenna. Joshua Wickerham is the chief advisor to the ESC, Ethnobotanical Stewardship Council.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
just press the music let's just go right with music we have no no commercials today i like it what commercial you by the universal good experience dennis mckenna and josh worker him josh's from the no but that's no botanical stewardship council one of the file you were the founders of this right and what exactly does that mean for folks who have no idea what yes no botanical or stay search it means a lot of people struggle with council or council like your counseling people and ethnobotanical stewardship imagine bringing that up at a party well the esc is dedicated to transforming lives through assuring the safety and sustainability of traditional plants so
that means a transforming people's life through experiences with plants but it also means the sustainability of plants and the safety in their use so we're starting with alaska and it yeah you shouldn't start with like ferns people get excited about it it's hard to get eucalyptus you know people are going to get fired up about that but iowa discover anything involving tryptamines for folks experienced it it's something worth saving exactly you guys find it odd that in this day and age in two thousand and fourteen the average person who you would go up to to try to discuss these issues with i have no idea what you're talking about hi really i think over the last few years that's kind of changed iosg is he merging into mass consciousness and i think that's a good thing i would say
ten years ago fifteen years ago if you approach the average person on the street and they said ayawaska they look at we like you had a speech impediment or select yeah but it's a sorry people would recognize it now and then not in necessarily know what it's about not necessarily have a negative or positive view of it but the me miss out there and i think that's a good thing all definitely it's most certainly a good thing i agree with you that it's certainly out there with young folks right but with vo i'm forty six of folks my age and older it gets a little sketch you know it's like wait a minute what what are you doing for we already have mortgages and families those are the one it's very difficult to get them to even consider what you're talking about it be surprised the esc is sent out a call for experts and we've been bend into infiltrated by the mainstream people do evaluation work for the world bank and usaid there
sit in ayawaska people are going down to south america to have these transformative experiences to in ceremony there's a lot of underground liberty in the us as well and europe where it's it's not legal but in south america in peru ayawaska is protected as national patrimony that's awesome yeah beautiful do you ever worry that you're being infiltrated by government agents who that i am not clear right i'm not doing those saying anything illegal we're working in countries where i alaska is has been used for hundreds of years traditionally and we're looking at increasing the safety of it so that we're creating a kind of self dilatory model so that we can take that model to places where it's illegal and say this is a totally safe medison if you do it right people with certain medical conditions shouldn't take ayawaska but done with the skill could end our shaman in
right setting it can it can be helpful for all sorts of psychological issues or ptsd or depression and just give people a new effective on their life's most certainly i mean i'm a completely joking around but what i was saying when i was is like the you know that hasn't happened with marijuana marijuana is there still fight tooth and nail despite all the evidence that it's not just beneficial but really prevents a lot of cancers and does a lot of fantastic work with uh sd and with anxiety and all sorts of issues is medical issues you know inter ocular pressure for people with glaucoma and you know on and on and on people with aids that are having a hard time keeping their appetite up cancer patients mean it still they fight too thin client i oscar is a completely different perelman keys alaska's coming in at this through the back door i mean it's interesting that it had
those gain recognition over time to the extent that it does and to a certain extent i would it's you know josh like josh and me we say we work for the plants right and ios kids got it on the agenda interesting lee and people go down to south america and they have experiences that are revelatory and self transforming but also and they come back with an enhanced ecological consciousness and enhanced awareness of you know connect in between humanity and nature of the idea that nature is threatened and are you thinking via wasco is sort of a messenger from my community of species that's trying to you know tell though the these monkeys to wake you clowns an old it's you know we're coming the wire if we're in a crisis here you've got to read first and where fit into nature and do what to be done in the
shrinking time that's left so people come back with this renewed sort awareness of the interconnectedness of life and that we have a role in this you know we primates and we have to really understand what our role is as stew regis of nature rather than exploiter nature and i will ask you know that message it delivers to many people an unexpectedly they may not be going there too you know experience that but that's what they come away with from your work and from your brothers work uh uh terence mckenna what i got that i never considered before was that alex in various forms very well be responsible for why we are human beings in the first place in our separation from them might the whole reason why we're so haywire we're missing a crucial ingredient involved in the creation of cogs
i thought in the first place the creation of this ability to look at ourselves and communicate our ideas and really it become a human being and then we're set but from the mother and left to our own devices and all of our wild animal instincts sort of take over an our animal instincts sort of don't coexist peacefully in this week world that we've created as human beings and then we create chaos is it because we can't see what we're doing right right oscar allows you to see what you're doing i alaska yes i oscar refocuses the whole understanding when i think of the relationship that we have to that we have to nature and i think that's what you know if you believe in plant intelligence i mean there are different ways of looking at plant intelligence but it's it's christine how often people you know they come
with this renewed understanding and i think that's that's you know a desperate call on the part of the community species my watch guess been delegated to be to kind of lead conversation it's fascinating that ayawaska is the one that's been you know the in the four when mushrooms are so damn easy to grow you could i mean anyone could essentially get ahold of some spores and start cooking them in your basement like really quickly is ayawaska is probably the most complex combinatory beverage that we know as far as like psychedelic bruise it's the one that require the most knowledge is the one that requires the most care and creating and it's easy pretty extract dmt and then it is to create i when get all the plants and brew it together and know someone who really knows what they're doing how to cook up a good batch weird that that's the one yeah
it was it's all right i think it's because it's his soul entrance you know it it it's escaped from its home in the amazon and that's the area on the planet with the great file diversity and all that but it's got all those associations you know people regard it in mushrooms are also important but they just don't seem to carry that same i don't know what it is emotional kick ask is the one right now that's getting all the attention you know and it's quintessentially a plant mushrooms art plants so maybe that's part of the disconnect i'm not sure but all of these things in indigenous cultures are regarded as plant teachers and and as you mentioned a lot of it comes down to tryptamine chemistry an you know are brains for
already some are evolutionarily prime to react tryptamines i mean we have these tryptamine detectors for some reason and i think it's partly that we can so that we can risk steve and interpret what they're trying to tell us and what they're trying to tell us is there much time left and we have to really really understand our relationship to nature we have to realize that we're not separate nature well we're trying to overcome at least two thousand years of judeo christian history and and you know that those traditions there are ten there whole agenda in a certain sense is to devalue nature nature thing that we own it's there for us to exploit it's up there for us rape and we're busy doing that because you know my
problem with those religions is the focus is always on the afterlife so it tends to make you devalue this life it makes you you know it teaches call to devalue nature to devalue their bodies to devalue a personal experience all of these things and it leads to the very out of balance situation that we have going and uh what's disturbing to me is that we're all of the circle of the converted i mean we got the memo you know an the team is spreading the memo is spreading but i'm not sure it's do you think it's possible that the human race is essentially cramming
now when now you're about to do a test and you put it off to the last minute and and you know day before you like holy i gotta deal with this right and then you go bananas you taken adderall you filed through books into your head wants to explode that is a characteristic that's very very common for people that want to attack a project especially an important project right it's almost like we have thing where it has to be complete overwhelming where it can't be ignored and then we go into it full throttle right is it possible that the human race is cramming and that may be part of our self destructive tendencies are actually us recognizing that were fucking up and going into it more okay klay more materialistically more shallow more nonsense more can't kardashian more american idol more horsh just to get you to the point where
you get so sick of it you did it up and then move on yes yeah and we're in the middle of an ecological crisis and yes time is running out we certainly are cramming destroying the amazon were destroying the climate restoring the ocean we're destroying the air were destroying everything we get our greasy little hands on and this is first time in the five hundred years of european colonization of the americas that there's a kind of reverse reverse sort of message coming from the amazon people are going there not to convert but to be converted to learn to learn traditions and the indigenous people ninety five percent of their population was wiped out by viruses or wars or play and now we have this opportunity to come back from the brink and work with ayawaska that grows in the canopy of the rain forest you
have i alaska without the trees and so it's alternative to mining and oil exploitation and there's money to be made in it and i think coming back to cannabis the reason the dialogue is starting to change is because governments are realizing there's a lot of money to be made taxation it's a solution to budget crises and the same with ios good tourism i don't like to say tourism 'cause people are legitimately seeking a spiritual experience some people just want to go have a nice variant something is anything wrong with the word tourism but i know what you're saying like the frivolous idea value yeah yes i i think we you know i i think i watched a tourism is a beautiful way pilgrimage yeah is i six a tourism is sir is a phase in our relationship to iowa i think that all that potentially if we can you know
what i view is going on now is kind of a rough period but what is really being played out here is the evolutionary relationship with these plants that have gone on as you say ever since we became cognitive beans in fact it was the plants that trick that and now old and that conversation is going on in that but now the conversation is gone to a new level where i was scared before was kind of you know the let's under the stewardship of indigenous people confined to the amazon now watson circling the globe and i think this is partly this is plants do they like to spread and there's ready now tinted different cultures and the plant itself is now you know and if the amazon is destroyed which it may well be i will ask is not going be destroyed it's too late it's already escaped but i think you know
hopefully we can arrest this process but uh what you're seeing is has always been a coal evolutionary relationship where you know sometimes some it's it's more quiet it's underground but at some point says as the crisis deepens it's becoming more and more public in a that's uh and i think that's what you see going on you know and and potential yeah i think that ayawaska we're now discovering that it's good for so many things you know therapeutically for addictions for depression for tpts and that sort of thing and that's all to the good but we shouldn't make the mistake of thinking i once only for sick people in our it's it's for were all wounded and we all need to understand something about our relationship to nature
potentially the paradigms that are emerging in alaska tourism or these more you know these i centered spiritual communities in the states potentially this has the this may transform mental health here in this country it may transform psychiatry an from that it might transform medison ann it might actually transform all these other institutions that we have to deal with whose values to become twisted over two as the years of of bull indoctrination and these institutions are not going away and there fine they just need to rediscover a moral dimension to the consequences of their action if that makes any sense
our cleverness far exceeds our wisdom and that's a problem that's the problem we've got to become wise and when we couple that with our ingenuity of our cleverness then we'll be on hey saving the planet saving ourselves i think there's also this growing understanding of all the factors that encompass a healthy person and how many of them have to do with your conception of reality how many of them have to do with the way you think how many of them have to do with how you view your environment if you view your environment as hostile stressful and agonizing angry negative place you'll get sicker than your body fight it doesn't know what to do it's fighting it constantly in your battle you're all stressed out and your sis love to all sorts of things and they in in that sense there's a direct physical connection between
academic experiences an improved health and that's something that people really need to understand and i think once that catches route once people grasp that concept and understand the incredible pressure levy alleviating properties like i remember when the first times i i ever did dm team the the what the what the day afterwards like i had it's completely different view of the world that i i'd sort of apply now are all these other and like figure out like do all these these factors that i've considered as being important how many of them am i going to throw out like the way project is like my under rebooted and now only has one folder on the desktop
folders labeled my old bull and so now i have to open this folder go three how much of this is valid right this is this is my whole thought process this is my whole mind this is how i interface with reality unfortunately some of it made its way back in you know and then you know how to do another trip you know a few months later and then threw out more of it and it was a sort of us a deliberate process and re evaluation you can you can't reject it all there's some good stuff in that folder right but i think what the dmt experience the psychedelic experience does no that's per really what it does i like your analogy of the folder because now you're looking at the folder from the desktop you're outside the folder so it's liberated you you were imprisoned in the folder before now you can look at it on the outside and you can go through and say oh you know delete delete delete oh this is good let's keep this yeah you know let's integrate it so you know
ultimately this is a process of uh you know personal cleansing both physics an emotionally in your m you know to in your encounters with these things but also cultural cleansing you know i mean there are third good memes out there and there are good things going on but there's you know there's much noise there's so much bulshit it's hard to sort out what's worth pre survey in and what needs to be dispensed with i think we're also kind of trapped in this weird world of our creations as far as technology as well i think that techno she just like corporations just like anything that sort of becomes a force that sconce and the growing it becomes it has a certain self preservation aspect to it and i think that we are completely connected to the idea of constant innovation and cons
improving technology and that also is completely connected as to materialism materialism is the real driving force behind constant innovation if we all looked at our laptops and said i'm good are you good there's no need to we call apple right now hey these are fucking great stop right there right thank you literally don't need to improve internet speed you don't need to improve the laptop everything is wonderful let's stop all this and let's move on to something else well that's not what everybody wants everybody wants the newest latest greatest fastest we do video processor i want to screen roles and folds and but that's par with the trap yes this idea that we have to keep upgrading to the iphone ten or whatever i mean these tools work and i'm used in the proper way they can be amanda sleepy important for consciousness evolution and transformation that's what the
delix are they're just tools there are kind of technology and like i say often to my classes and elsewhere technology in itself is neither good or bad drugs are neither good nor bad these technologies it's all about how you apply them rats where the moral dimension comes in that's why you know you can use you can miss use technology internet to karla two year old propagate the kardashians are doing lately over the internet but you can also change hearts and minds with with those tools like for example uh you know this live streaming symposium that were that were involved with that were our mandate is to plug this thing but it's important you know this conference coming up in amherst is just one example amherst massachusetts amherst all well you know this
social capital of massachusetts right perfect place to do this this uh symposium that's coming that's going to be live stream people should go to it's a cute name symposium p s y m p o s i u m and if it's going to be live streamed and if you go to the website you can you know for tickets for live streaming give that out one more time for people that were struggling imposing m p s y m p o s u m q right yeah this hard to impose the m dot com and if you go to their website what you're going to see right now which i had nothing to do with you're going to see a trailer for life screaming and that streaming and it's actually it looks like a stealth advertisement for my new product coming out which is the dennis
a bobble head i mean this trailer and i look like i have a movement disorder or something and you know but get beyond why do you why is it over give a movement disorder uh let's let's play it
i mean the plan number plate right now okay go to full you'll see what i mean i was just looked at it this morning and i actually this bubble and i what is going on how high was the person who made this pretty are pretty high he just made it last night i looked out and i you know this morning and i said seriously to be opiates there it is the important thing is get past the the the trailer and you can you can sign up for this symposium which is these guys these young fellows out damn cursed or really enthusiastic and good good people and they want this this conference to have an impact and i think it will amherst is one of the few places in masters said consider living i got familiar with
let's say it's yeah i've i had an ex girlfriend who moved out there when i was in high school and i to go out there and visit her and i remember thinking wow this is like a totally different world out here it's all like in stock wearing strange hippie open minded right right some weird sort of a strange place in the mid western massachusetts westerman it chooses his of strange place in and of itself because you have boston what and you know which is a very it's big city of very educated more colleges per capita than anywhere else but then you get out of massachusetts you might as well be in kentucky for about an hour and twenty minutes and then you get to this weird oasis where like the the woods part and then you know you have this strange place in amherst was really highly educated and open minded liberal community
well i'm not sure i've ever been there but i'm looking forward to this conference you do a lot of fun yeah it really is the perfect play it's it's very much like a very small boston in the middle of massachusetts but with no music right not as much music the guys organizing the conference really are working with the plants and for the plants and you don't have to go there to participate the the beauty beauty is this this live sign up for ten bucks you get a screening of neurons to nirvana a great film and access to all the the presenters yeah i have to tell you have you interviewed shown neurons to nirvana no on your side no are you i mean it you know from a technical and if you i'm not a filmmaker you can criticize it from point of view but as an educational tool for so alex i think this is really an interesting movie and what kind of thing you can sit down with your pair listen watch and
they will come away maybe some other assumptions will be shaken you know and it's a very good educational tool for the subtitle is understanding psychedelic medicines and it's entertainingly done and it's a kind of a review of the cut and research on bout four psychedelics mdma lst ayahuasca where this state of the art research is on that and these kind these chemicals you know we need to do is we were talking about before we need to check in hearts and minds i know it's a cliche but these chemicals under the right circumstances are actually a way to do that and coupled with that is education education is so important and that's kind of the vision of these gentleman brett green and and his colleagues that you know
symposia like this are an import component of this because it's a way of getting the information out and the more people it can be gotten out to the faster the change can be can be implemented yeah they did the change hearts and minds is an interesting cliche because we've heard so many times it's almost like we've heard wolf wolf wolf there's walters walls right holy there's a wolf the first time i did i did any psychedelics the first major one upside mdma was mushrooms and then that was my first experience like oh my god there's a wolf like this is this is a totally different thing this isn't something that you have to believe in this is something that's out right matter if you believe in it in that exactly aired for it too well you can't i really don't think you can be i think you can be the best you can be prepared for is to give up just let it go
so we don't fight it be prepared for that take a few yoga classes know what it's like to be uncomfortable and keep breathing right and then then then do it then listen listen to it surrender to the messages there yeah you said earlier which is a very controversial but oddly fascinating thing that plants the reason why we are human beings today why these plant it ends in these psychedelic compounds why that's so controversial i find that to be incredibly amazing when i talk to really intelligent people bring that idea up and they dismiss it like all it's instantaneously and i understand why because i get it that they're connecting the idea of a drug to a bad thing i get that but do you want to talk about powerful in
ince's on cognitive thought is there any more powerful influences on cognitive thought than a psychedelic drug i don't think there is i think i don't understand why that wouldn't be immediately considered at the top of the list top of the short list but it's not it's heresy that's the thing so than unconventional idea i mean if you look at you know we as a species we evolved in the rainforest initially and you know we evolved in an environment incredible chemical diversity you know and it's sir to assume you know and the reason they're such chemical diversity in the plant kingdom is that they're great just so you know they make all these chemicals for whatever purposes that's how plants mediate their relationship with their environment right they they
institute biosynthesis for behavior this is when i say this is a cliche they can't react to their environment through behavior you can't run away they can't fight they have fight through chemistry on the other side of that coin is we are chemical systems i mean i hate to break it to you folks but were you do drugs right that's why drugs work we're bio well engines are praying serpil chemical engines that run on neurotransmitters these plan compounds are are neurotransmitters essentially i mean you know they were lance a long time before they were in our brains before there was even complex brains enough to utilize these things that are you know in the course of evolution we internalize these things have adapted them to our own like internal signaling processes so now we have the you know the neurological tools if you will to talk to the plants in a live voice with
talking to is now we can actually have a conversation and because you get into the conversation of the conversation is you know you monkeys need to move to the next level you need to get more conscious of your place in nature our place in nature as a species i realized that were not separate from it we are part of it an if nature goes down we go down i mean there is no there is no escape ticket out of here not yet anyway and and the plants are the tools to understand this you know i mean there's good scientific studies now that show that psilocybin which is the one that's been studied can rely caleb induce a state that you might all of mystical experience i prefer to call it a transcendent experience but the the the you know the duggars if the experience that yet
can elicit under the right experiences this is an understanding of we are all one you know we're not separate that's the core of the i think the mystical insight that psychedelic spring about why in our brains even have evolve to have that kind of experience if it's not a way of you know kind of uh well i don't know being able to initiate that conversation with the rest of species i mean they're counting on us you know because never before we you know civilization and humanity is impacted nature in adverse ways because we've been around as long as we've had fire you know i mean fire back in paleolithic and even earlier was tremendously not necessary
destructive force but it was a transformative force on ecosystems we didn't particularly you said in a conscious way we we use it in a way that that served our our purposes but now with seven billion people on the earth and counting and technologies no one ever imagined that we have at our fingertips what we do now not really matters you know because we because before nature the homeostatic mechanisms that tended to take nature keep nature in balance you know we could cause tremendous ecological destruction and sure would eventually you know that would fade away in nature would come back into balance now we're actually in danger of permanently screwing up those mechanisms we actually have to kind of consciously intervene or be conscious
but we're doing 'cause the consequences of what we do or just so much greater that make any sense without absolutely does it absolutely does i think there's the thing that we need to uh put into perspective the relatively short amount of time that human beings have had access to the information that we have today the the terrible facts of prop panda and how long propaganda can stick you know when talking about just the just say no era of of this the the eighties the the nancy reagan nonsense i had doctor carl heart on recently whose are brilliant drive you aware of his work amazing work on and addiction and sort of educating people about the actual real reactions and human he has to drugs but he's talking about that was really interesting is like there has never been a drug free society nor would you want one
it doesn't exist so this this idea is so stupid it's been hammered into us this impossible ideal right and it's it's because of the ability to communicate it's ironic that you know the the ability to communicate route to mass amounts of people is so recent within the last few one hundred years one thousand years whatever it's been that we the active these things although in our probably small finite lives seems like forever is it probably just a little tiny blip on the radar where we've had this sort of cultural hiccup will los lost the script and the internet seems to be what's resetting the the information and i think that's one of the reasons why marijuana besides the financial reason my marijuana has gained so much steam just the sheer
well main avalanche of faxing the lack of gas the ld fifty rate of fifteen hundred pounds in fifteen minutes like just the sheer absurdity of what it takes to kill you and then the stats that come in i mean how many times you see someone posted with the numbers people die by cigarettes numbers people die by prescription drugs the numbers people don't buy alcohol the numbers people and you start look at that and then marijuana gets the bottom zero right what the fuck right now it's over and over and over and over again resetting this it is strange propaganda but to people that have in a live through it it's in doctor nation it's and how we've come to understand the world but with a mess which is penetrating that yes it is now with all that cultural baggage that that is that marijuana is loaded down with finally the real message is coming through when people are exactly like you say beginning to wake up to it and compared all the other recreational drugs that we accept this when
big nine an beneficial i've said that i think that in the future when people look back on this age where people are being arrested and imprisoned for marijuana they're going to look back at the same way they used to look at it killing witches is yeah it's really that ridiculous it's just it's so it's such a bomb a black mark on our our silly society yeah and just an indication of how disconnected we are this the concept of a drug free society as you say is as totally absurd because you know where we're we have drugs in fact we are drugs and you know uh trains run on neurotransmitters and send whether they're endogenously produced and we know for example a dmt m t is an endogenous general transmitter and that's a whole fascinating area of neuroscience now potential functions for dmt
you know are being found we know it's been there for a long time we've known it's endogenous but it's so clear what the hell it's doing in there now we're beginning to get some indications that it really does have a function for example places that you wouldn't expect modulating the immune system for example all this stuff is merging so you know i mean by any measure these internal chemicals are drugs they just happen to be drugs that we make ourselves we don't buy them from the local pot dealer or whatever so it also the perceptions are are changing three i i think i again i true the internet and the the some of the work like that rick strassman is done it's been pretty fast any as well in the most recent work showing that emt is actually produced in the pineal gland of love live rats which was always
for whatever reason even though everyone knew dmt was a a and dodges neuro transmitter and that human beings absolutely produced in the liver and alongs in different parts of the body the the the part the gland is always been ultimately incredibly past any because it literally is that third eye the any of the soul and there was so much the distance to that idea that this mystical chemical is actually produced by the third eye and i saw online like all this battling back and forth you know well it's only anecdotal evidence is produced by now there's actual physical and now there's actually with us we know it's there we knew it had to be there all day enzymes to make it all the precursors to make it were there but nobody actually nailed it down now they've nailed it down so that's that's progress that's a step but that's the resistance to the idea was very fascinating to me
why would anybody care whether not it was pretty the body makes it for sure like why is it such an issue that the pineal gland but it is it is because that sort of opens up door to eastern mysticism to all that traditional religious art that showed the glowing third eye and all these peaceful right beings with lit third eyes all of that is like oh well they probably knew something oh there's something to it they did noah thing yeah right well they knew quite a bit right the other thing is the egypt artwork that so clearly resembles the pineal gland and the a cross section of the human brain and there's so much of that in ancient civilizations in ancient cultures it just makes really try to piece together like when did we lose all this like what
figure that out when when did all that sort of slipped away i think it's lost i mean obviously it's not lost right we're now rediscovering it it was just it was esoteric you know it was tarek knowledge for a long time now it's becoming less sir terry more people are becoming aware of what the aims i knew what the visionaries of the mystics always knew this is no longer hidden knowledge you know it's becoming more accessible and that's partly the effect of the internet and partly if they a lot of very smart people obsess they don't for this and sharing what they're finding out so again this is i think part of the general raising of conscious it's in this area that's going on now amber lyon who's a she was a reporter for cnn and sort of lost her faith in
mainstream news when she did a piece on bahrain and it got redacted edited and turned into like a tourist peace and she you know she left cnn it was this huge thing she's really like trying to figure out what to do with her life and i i i suggested psychedelic drugs so she goes down to peru takes like just jumps on a plane like literally grabs what what clothes she had in her car jumps in a plane goes to take seven long iowa trips really changes your life goes on a year round journey year journey to discover very psychedelic medicines and in a different indigenous cultures goes to and does mushrooms goes to mexico doesn't it now she's writing or making this website called i got me she's dedicated her life to psychedelics within one year one crazy transformative trip and its people like her people like you and people like you that are there putting this information out
starting this is sort of like undeniable tide this shift yes undeniable shifting right right psychedelics and neurotransmitters aside because people expect something big when they take these things and people are rightly a little apprehensive i mean it will change your life if you take these plans but if you want to have a transformative experience with plants and you're leery of psychedelics try going on a an all plant based diet for a little while change your intestinal bacteria and away you'll you'll have this sense of levity at likeness it will change the way you think about yourself not as quickly as a psychedelic plant experience and it takes discipline or try a fast i mean there are ways to have these these trying
formative experiences without drugs without plants but it's just the only transfer their wares that i've ever experienced from dealing with people that are gonna completely trance transforming the lives in a completely plant based diet is they can never shut the up about the fact there on a plant based diet god yeah hello to you over the head with a right right right operable if they are i'll to maintain yeah in in in light of the new information might slip and discovered over the past decade or so about the intelligence of plants about plants ability to calculate their ability to recognize it perhaps even a memory their their their ability to you guys dangers their ability to adapt there's uh business in plants that is undeniable and i think very misunderstood or non understood that's not a but were ignorant to it
and that's one of the problems that i have with people that push the plant based diet like i don't think i think life eats life i think it always has and i think you know you can get to the very bottom of the karma chain where your you your fungi and you're living off of poop and you know basically things that things have thrown away or you can be a tiger you know and they're all beautiful health system is crazy and beautiful and the only reason why we exist at all is that a fucking star how to die the whole thing is death for we're so obsessed with this idea of eating only plants or you know eating being uh based diet connects you more to nature i've become hunter over the last year and a half and i couldn't disagree more
one of the reasons being is at honey is a very psychedelic experience and a weird way that never would have believed to home the first time i ever went deer hunting and shot a deer and then wind up eating it there's a weird connection that you have with nature and with that animal when you do that especially if you do it in it's turned a fair chase environment you go out into the actual woods you deal with an animal most likely that animal right there had never even seen a human being before i shot it and they you know we're eating it that dear right there not the alien no not the alien that mother fucker he signing you but i think that there's there's life in everything and there's
most likely some form of a consciousness in all life and and i think it rains are over rated you know ever nervous systems are over rated in a certain sense you could say well how can a plant be intelligent it's it doesn't have a nervous system intestine for brain but it clearly displays intelligence and that in fact speaking of that and speaking of your hunting experience you know the author michael pollan right he had great essay and i think the new yorker recently about plant intelligence that if you haven't read it it's worth reading but i also love his chapter in the on dilemma which is which is subtitled the oral history of four meals and the meals is a meat meal where he where he wants to create a meal but he wants to do it
he wants to put himself in the shoes of a hunter gatherer so he to gather all wild foods plant foods obviously mushrooms pine nuts in this sort of thing but he also wants to hunt down a bore i think was an kill it and strip beyond skin it cut it up eat it and have that experience and i think what you say is totally legitimate if you're going to eat meat it's important that people realize where the tynan old died so that you could have that meal and native americans indigenous people of always recognize this because they are up against it so you know they thank the animal for what their kid a man that's that's really important and that's something that we should try integrate into everything why not thank the plants to thank you no thank you everything we wouldn't be here if we weren't sustained by this web of life so why are we
disrespectful to it i guess that's the crux of the question well we can't really feel what we're doing to this earth and we we have this diffuse responsibility thing by your meat in the grocery store wrapped in plastic notion where it actually came from yeah i've made a commitment this year to live entirely off of game meat of wild game all wild too nothing that you know nope in animals who just wind up shooting the hand that i was telling you guys about before the show of smoking and that's a pig i killed a man on this ranch to hone ranch so i mean and they actually have to have comment come in because these are invasive species these he's pigs and they will destroy everything the deer fawns the grounding
ground nesting birds the eat their eggs they're they're unbelievably devastating unbelievably devastating to the environment today aren't naturally right so there's a role for us as stewards of the environment these for sure unless you say they're devastating ecosystems i don't know in but hawaii this is their biggest problem and it's destroying ecosystems hawaii so there is a role for us to step in and say well you know we're going to kind of exert some control here and control that pop because they didn't originate in hawaii they are they're invasive species this yeah from eurasia lead for some regulation well there's an issue right now in san jose san jose they've started to make make the wait the suburbs and they're destroying people's lawns and you know
so we'll children do my lawn you fine yeah it's it is a weird connection the connection that that we have to to to life itself and the our thoughts when we talk about native americans like i'm almost immediately we think of the spiritual connection that native americans had to the land the deep respect that they had for the animals that they killed in the fact that they would every single piece of that animal the use the hide to make a roof for close they would use in you for for a string their bows and arrows the literally used every part to toenail flesh they ate them and they worship these animals yeah you know and it was it was a deep respect it was inexorable part of the relationship
to nature itself i really hear you on this i grew up in the woods of michigan mile outside of a town of one hundred and fifty people and my uncle is a hunter and a taxidermist but hunting for him as a spiritual quest and experience and you feel pain of the animal you kill and yeah utilizing all aspects of it i'm not i'm not opposed to eating meat by any means just saying that on all plant plant diet when when you do it properly can transform con business it's a it's a strange thing but on in all meat diet and eating that conscious conscious eating can which conscious conscious heating is conscious everything right which is everything everything from design of institutions of the internet of our experiences yeah when you were talking about earlier about brains being overrated one of the things that i've really it's been inescapable
for me over the last few years or so is this idea that we are the caterpillars that are giving birth to the moss and that our whole screwy system and our whole you know our issues with ego problems and materialism might be because we're just sort of a transitionary stage to this symbiotic relationship that we have with technology and then we're going to give birth to some artificial thing that doesn't carry the burdens of natural selection that doesn't carry the burdens of primitive instincts did the need survive animal reward systems that were built into us from the time that we were monkeys that doesn't sound like a very nice existence just so i can i suggest but not sure about that this is why bounce it around because i don't know i don't know if it's better i mean the idea is that well if i'm not a person well i'm but is the
the eagle hanging on to that is it mean if there is some sort of hyper intelligent artificial life that's capable of income completely a completely self sustaining existence where totally solar powered all garbage or waste product whatsoever it's fact immediately into the equation instead of put off like nuclear waste with just take a hole in owl figure that out later running that's madness to me in the news the nuclear waste issue is one of the most maddening and insane issues ever where they take these things build holes and then they put it in there and they see lit up like what do you look little kid like are you fucking cry that's like a little kid would do when they have to clean their room they lift up the carpet they sweep it under the great they put the carpet down it's a childish way of approaching an issue told instead of having completely holistic approach to this this thing like okay are we gonna build the
if we are going to build the stuff what we going do about the toxic waste ok let's back to that in before we move forward and then spend an extra few decades trying to figure out what to do with that ship and then maybe come up with a solution before you ever move forward but we don't do that we have this weird thing that we just sort of put it off and it's child companies have quarterly reporting requirements if we just change the financial reporting structure and wonder if that's one year of five year instead of this short term thinking well solar panels this is what happens to be this is it has to be a factored into corporate as you say because tions have gotten a free ride for too long because they never pay the environmental consequences of what they do and we have to change that where they have to be held accountable and responsible for the environmental impact it's not just that you pay two hundred dollars for an iphone you know you pay
two hundred dollars for an iphone but it cost two thousand dollars to deal with the environmental impact tell me fact you having cancer from the toxic waste that economic equation has got to change and that's one of the biggest challenges because it's a huge huge challenge to capitalism it's the it's laid down the gauntlet and say look guys okay you can make money but let's make let's look at the bottom line in the realistic way you're making a this profit but what do you call spare send the rest of society for year profit teen activities how 'bout a little payback here you know how about you know find some way to compensate for the damage that that corporations do and that is that's the biggest threat that i can see right now the corporations want to own everything they want to corporate everything
and nature is just another commodity as they see it to be all and exploited and now that's the perception that's got a change maybe one way to do it this to you know i i think king of hearts and minds i think if you can get you know there are ethical capitalists out there you know and chances are there partly ethical because they took us academics and some point i mean steve jobs and people like that you know and we could name others so you know psychedelics are teaching tools to help people kind of understand their place their responsibilities and uh uh we have to agree that's part of this it's not that we can't innovate we just have to be realistic about the impact that our actions are you also have this issue with corporations were having survival instincts and corporations
unlimited growth paradigm this right that is impossible like what we're talking about with like laptops that can we just stop here no we can't it's impossible now and we we also can't stop as far as profit well we made this much this quarter in this quarter we showed a twenty five percent growth excellent keep moving on by two thousand and seventy five we should have all the money in the world i mean that's really what every corporation isn't this what's happening yes it is in it's madness right you've got what is it five percent of the wealth concentrated in the one percent and the rest of us are you know services seats quickly the into a third situation and and that in that this economic slavery in a sense i mean people do what they have to do because don't have a choice there you know there they economic she their priorities are dictated by corporations this idea that profit is
the only thing that a corporation should be concerned with we've got to evolve beyond that sustainability is more important helping people's lives be better as more important than profits signature mean sure profits but that should be down several notches i think on the on the totem pole and in terms of what they identify as important i think it should be like food i think profit should be like food in that you can't eat poison and that if you're eating something and look we have all these calories you jay yeah but it's killing you grow your stand you can eat this this is bad for you like don't right yes what's thousand calories and i need towers to where no no you don't need those calories that's poison and and essentially the idea of profit is profit overall and profit over humanity you know the idea of financial finance
to gain over human suffering like that somehow or another it balances out is just like eating poison i mean it yes there should be no profit at all call when there's human suffering it should be one of those things with its factored in oh we can't eat this it's poison for humanity right yeah the corporation in the us if it does not maximize profit can be sued by its shareholders that's the law they have a well responsibility to maximize profit so crazy and so we have to change laws naturalization heads and tell the shareholders start the mandate they actually act responsibly that's i don't know how that works but you know if shareholders achieve a higher level of yes maybe they can influence the way the corporation is it was a nasa funded study looking at collapse of civilizations and one of the major factors is the discrepancy in wealth
that the wealthy people are using up the resources and their are from the effects and then it gets to a point where the people make decisions haven't been thinking about the the out the consequences in the alternatives and it's it's something's change that was a fascinating and very terrifying report because this is not someone with any financial interest in relaying this message this is not something that someone is selling a solution they're just looking all the data and go look if you just follow these trends this goes in and and and no there's no no indication whatsoever that it's going to slow down this is this is where we're going we have to figure this out before we hit this wall when i was an undergrad i was in business school until i took five grams
psilocybin mushrooms that i grew in my dormitory closet at the urging of terence mckennas books the old option eric method how to undermine civilization one char at a time radical but i realized that fighting a losing battle if i wasn't speaking the same language of making some profit of appealing to people's business interest so it was a long process i wanted to get out of this culture and ended up in china teaching english and i've spent most of the last ten years in china like a third chinese now really and i became comfortable well you know analyzing the situation i was in me people on their level 'cause i can't one thing being in china teaches you is to be constructive with people to come at an issue from how they're thinking about so i began that's why is that why is that
people don't want to lose face so it's a top down culture so you and the priorities of a leader and they have enlightened interest they have their self interests as well and you appeal to their better image of themself what's possible a win win situation where so i think of myself now is the kind of economic therapist i talked to corp tions i talked to ngos painting organizations and i try to help people find a balance what is what are the win win situation so the last six years i've been working with the global sustainability standards like the forest stewardship council and the stewardship council and the esc is hold on these organizations that you talk with enough stakeholders and you build consensus through dialogue and you have a transparent process that appeals to companies that appeals to regulators so
make mcdonald's for example they realized that they were catching too much fish from the ocean and it wasn't sustainable so they now call mcdonald's fish sandwiches are marine stewardship council certified which they can sell make fish sandwiches into eternity as long as the oceans are a viable for life or clark was cutting down the rain forests and cutting down arboreal forests in canada now all of their paper products are going to be fsc certified fsc certifies fifteen percent of the standing forests of the world so this this lab a fair share this notion of their stewardship i think is really important it's an important word it's got to be reintroduced into corporate thinking and corporate planning as opposed to profits i mean we all have a stake in survival not everybody has a stake in profits the shareholders have a stake in profits but there's no profits if you know what
we don't survive if this whole shooting match collapses so the concept of stewardship and i think that is is really important to to get that message out length and that's what people like josh you're trying to do and i think psych delix have a role to play absolutely in educating you know i mean it's interesting the you know we can it's going to be a while i think before i was kid gets integrated in this country in a way for example in therapy in bio med acen it's not going to happen but what you do see happening are these centers that are growing up an right now it's in america and josh and i asked him but an ickle stewardship council are trying to develop standards
for these organizations so that you know they are committed to a certain ethical set of standards safety and quality of their of their brew and so on but i can envision a time not too far in the future where if a person you know you can go to south america an if you have issues if you have sickness addiction or whatever you can get treatment but more importantly you can just get an education you can just get you can you can go there for purposes of spiritual discovery self discovery and all that once you have infrastructure which is growing then it partly becomes you know we need to get people in positions of power corporate ceos other cover leader and so on to go
have these experience that's the big one right we've yeah i mean you can't hold him in a headlock and force them to drink ayawaska although i'd like to a lot of times they're catalyst for creativity take your marketing team to south america and have a ceremony together and rebrand your company exactly increase your profits in the process and the benefits to people that some people have that's where the economic that's where the business model comes people have a negative reaction to that and i know this personally first hand because i the business on it on it dot com is a company we sell exercise quit man and supplements and and healthy foods and one of the
is that on it was created was my partner aubrey and i talking about it ann arbor going to south america doing ira wasco and then having these visions about his business and when i talked about that he was met with so much criticism so many people realize you're down there doing all right what's good thinking about your business that's so gross so that so base that so egocentric that so you know the the the message of the plant but it's it's creativity creativity eight it manifests itself in a million different ways and it yeah the idea of business equals evil really has to get
we have to get past that we have to get we all exchange you know it's not evil some guy could fix your car it's not evil someone can fix your your your refrigerator so you can store food all those things are businesses he'll and filled by fair trade coffee yes for most biodiversity and and farmers can send their kids to school exactly what i have so it is it's win win it's possible to develop these he come out model so i i totally disagree with your your crit your partner is exactly right on and okay he with his background assume it's he goes to our south america and he already has the mindset right and then alaska is a way to sort of flesh out asian if you were i mean he went there to learn something and boy today alerts
but he clearly he went through a bunch of other things about his life when you gonna get the personal ship clearly it first try and get me history open up my old bullship folder hit over the head not anyone of us here his dumb that completely i mean it's important process oh yeah no no doubt about it you know i got a tank session scheduled for tonight here in some style it'll workout the the word ethical company or the expression ethical company i think is is is a big one and i think that this this idea the the psychedelic experience for those who haven't experienced it or for those who already i dropped acid in college but i'm past that now i've got a 401k in a mortgage and college you know bills for
kids and i have a lot of things but that's an excuse for not wanting to confront it now it's just that's a self self delusion really nobody's ever passed no no when it was over we will if you're a human being and you have mean you your constant sort of soup of michael's sneer adrenaline hormones all these different things are going on you're trying to maintain balances and keep everything a and then keep pattern of thought in a good place so that maintains everything as well i think to to these people that are perpetrating a lot of the issues that we have whether it's the head of bp or you know it's some guy wants to frack say before you do that do this first and then let's talk no like confronted with your own our talent should almost be mandatory i mean you should show that you will but went before you start fracking you should show that you have a degree
that you understand the actual physical process of removing these chemicals you should understand you know whatever energy extraction degrees you have to have an whatever sciences that pertain to that you should also have psychedelic trips on your belt like you'd say you know here i see your documentation you've gone three or five grams and what did you get out of that do you like it should be one of those things where it's reviewed break okay haven't went and okay what you've you got it off your list before you proceed so i mean they should be like a presidential council for psychological fitness and they sit you down they go you don't psychedelic experiences on your resume ready the brain now yeah what are you doing opening up a company that digs holes in the ground you don't have any psychedelic experiences that's uh for disaster so you're missing a key component you're missing this connection to the mother earth via some
unfathomable experience that literally is impossible to describe so you're missing that part to go get that then come back and then we'll talk about business yes or people in the department of defense or veterans yeah there's that are dealing with all these soldiers with ptsd another important aspect of the symposia conferences a new organization called that its veterans for and theo genic therapy well that's great they're the founders part did in the maps ptsd study with mdma i came away feeling so much better and they want to open this up to other veterans and others suffering from ptsd so a portion of the proceeds from the amherst conference in the live the online live participation will will go to this organ
nation and to the s c that's spectacular i'm a huge huge fan of maps and rick dublin on the podcast for was it just a fantastic guy and he they just treated me something i re tweeted about they did a a new study autism adult autism mdma assisted therapy for social anxiety in autistic adults and so amazing amazing sister have charlie grove working with him working on that he charlie girl who's at ucla he's one of our hafter superstars if you will yeah he's name so we can get him on the pr ob charles scrope he's at harbor ucla he's done and he's done a psilocybin end of life study he's a member that hefter bore i may as well plug after here where that sort of small organization that nobody knows about after dot org
no h e f f t not after but after yeah it's a non profit and basically committed to clinical developing clinical protocols with psychedelic some kind of staked out psilocybin in some ways the same way that mdma is maps is things psilocybin this our thing and we several really christine protocols fda approved clinical studies right now for end of life a existential anxiety at the end of life for exploring actually what you might experimental mysticism because soul simon can reliably i mean to say mystical states roland griffiths work at johns hopkins has shown lists so it's an actual tool for the first time we're actually able to a
roach transcendent states of mind in a control clinical setting we can reliably induce the states and then study what what's the brain doing when when you're in the state of psilocybin induced mysticism well it's doing a lot of things similar to the state of mystic experience when you're it's on the nachor whatever i'm not sure that but anyway hefter dot org mode of the leading researchers in psych like science right now are either on our board or being funded by hefter and so we have fun keenum were focus lancel simon we work closely with maps but maps gets all the attention which is fine they're doing beautiful work but we're also doing effective important well we'll we'll certainly get some people to you hafter h e f f t e r diet work dot org hi my name def sure arthur heffter actually who's the he was uh
18th century scientists the first person to isolate masculine and a pure form from peyote e and demonstrate that it was the main ingredient of peyote e based on self experim and suddenly he was kind of exemplifies what we like to identify with you know good science driven by curiosity and ethics and yeah organization this psilocybin connection to dimethyl tryptamine dimethyl tryptamine being an endogenous chemical in your transmitter and psilocybin being very close very close what it what is the exact what what's the chemical was sir okay very simple dime the trip to maine is simply dimethyltryptamine tryptamine psilocin which is the active principle of psilocybin psilocybin is converted to silius and in the body so it's what farm i'll just call a prodrug it's converted by a very simple
chemical reaction to silius and that's the one that actually interacts with the receptors so sillas and is chemically for hydroxy dimethyltryptamine so it differs it's one trivial substitution on gold ring that oxygen that alcohol group top of the indole ring is what it them not dmt but it makes all the difference pharmacologic because solicit nails worley orally active and it doesn't require an maoi inhibitor and dm he does if you need what's the ayawaska secret you know dm plus mao inhibitor makes the orally active preparation by itself dmt is not orally active so you have to take it enderli by smoking it or the indigenous people make snuff out of it and so on they get get around that whole
toxification mechanism your gut is full of is full of mayo monterrey mean oxidase and the reason it's full of monoamine oxidase it's a it's a consequences are evolutionists omnivores skills plants are full a means most of our toxic can you don't want those you got the so you have the detox patient mechanism but they had a works for tm tm for that matter we can't be dining on dmt containing plants all the time and wandering around and we need to do need to be able to function in the world yeah your your brother had a fascinating idea about the at the idea panspermia in relationship to sell side psilocybin the how did you what is the exact nomenclature again for a high four hydroxy
our trip dimethyl tryptamine yeah that psilocybin i don't want to get bogged down in chemistry but phil soul side button for the camera so my it's got a fuss floral group that phosphoryl group is cleaved off that yield sillas in cilla centers for hydroxy dimethyltryptamine what is psilocybin and psilocybin is four phosphoryl dimethyltryptamine so it's got that phosphoryl group that makes it stable right so that's the formats stored in the mushroom and it can be quite stable for a long time soon as convert it to silius and it's very unstable and it's a femoral which is one why it's so easily metabolized by human metabolism it's very compatible with human metabolism which is why it's so you know it's appropriate can give it to people who are quite ill you know in terminal states and so on they could tolerate it's it's not a
it goes through human organism like ice water it's very easily handled you know but we don't want to get to know that isn't on the road don't know it's you know it's absolutely fascinating but the idea that your brother was promoting was that this may have come from another planet and that but you might be eating when you're eating mushrooms is your eating some sort of an intelligence which who is the weirdest thing about mushrooms is that it feels like they're talking to you certainly do have that impression yeah i vow dynamic that set up and the content which i guess not everybody as this you know this feeling of this science fiction ish cap to the experience but many people do and they're not all terence mckenna fans i mean if you if you fall well the terence mckenna recipe and eat five grams in the absolute darkness you'll be utterly convinced that they've landed you know
they are here yeah and whether that's just an impression or whether it's a you know some again i think this is possibly something you know bill into the structure of our nervous system and it maybe i mean we've always had this this fascination with with with you know with the external you know with the this sort of longing to may be rich turn to space maybe that's where we came from i don't know you know but certainly in this just in evolutionary process of cognition you know which week credit plants for if we want to buy into that idea we credit the plants for bringing about cognition the ability to
wonder the ability to speculate well you can't wonder if very much if you're looking down at the ground all the time you gotta look up when you look up you owe you know there's this universe out here an what's our connection to that you know we've always had this intuition that there is a connection i mean i don't so far as to say you know people ridiculed the idea that mushrooms might have come from outer space and so on and on the surface it seems like a ridiculous idea but you look a little deeper maybe not so much you know thanks a possible that spores are one of the hardest substances in nature and they can survive four they can survive in hard vacuum and radiation dense environments and they are not affected by it
other thing that your brother had mentioned was that it was so different than other life forms on earth because if its chemical makeup that he thought that the four hydrax your work for us for all yeah the four hydroxy four phosphoryl biosynthetic pathway is really only found in this group of mushrooms well actually and related species yeah he wasn't he was hm i start i i don't know if i agree with that so i mean mushrooms are socially player lee a part of you know earthly evolution that you can't really say that they stand outside of it i mean we know that's true i think if you want to make that prothesis you have to go further back and you have to say well you know maybe super civilization seeded oryx
she at some point not with the genes to make us feel but the means to make tryptophan and now trip van all these sillas and and serotonin and all these tryptamines come from tryptophan and tryptophan as one of those twenty amino acids that make up proteins so tryptophan is universally found in all organisms it's you know it's an essential molly jewel of life right it's found in everything but two trivial steps away from tryptophan two trivial and somatic modifications away from tryptophan you've got dmt you remove the carboxyl group you stick a couple methyl groups on tryptophan and there you are you've got dmt and i've often thought wow maybe this is a sort of sub text sub message of nature same just
around the corner right just around the corner from tryptophan is uh this compound that opens the door to other dimensions tension monkeys also fascinating the tryptophan converts to it eventually converts to serotonin is serotonin is just another trip to maine in fact chemically cortona is five hydroxy trip to maine still son is four hydroxy dimethyltryptamine dufaut name another one of these solution chances five hydroxy dimethyltryptamine so they're all you know very close to each other you see the diagrams uh oh hell there you are and these you go right so you can see how it works and
the idea that mushrooms come from outer space seems ridiculous to some folks but the reality is we were made out of stars we are made everything comes from outer space and i think that as we get further along in our understanding of the universe we're going to realize that everything is kind of fractal and there really is no separation between planet and other planets and the whole thing is just one big soup right right and actually an any i'm prebiotic environment i mean we don't know that much about exactly how life evolved but we know that in certain situations you've gotta build up organic compounds and under right circumstances it just seems to be a property of matter you know adams jules fall together in such a way that before you know it you've got living system see if you brought this up twice and i can't ignore it because it brought up in the last podcast as well you
you are fascinated by the idea of life being seated here by some intelligent force amber lyon who just discussed earlier she i had a vision of that actually happening on ayawaska and many other people as well do you think that something that is is a real possibility yes i do wow that's you want when you bring that one up you get thrown into that certain category right away dennis mckenna as what raise how to read we actually in my book i mean is which one my book all of the latest one the only latest one i wrote the brotherhood of the screaming abyss how the someone you put out a last time you're on here which is excellent for that that was really good you're really haven't bought it please folks go by it is fair really david that you really gave it a boost but i actually talk about that a talk about
this since at some length about this idea could it's really be and i'm trying to uh yes it from the standpoint of a critic of the ideas that will last totally ridiculous you know how could that be and they just dismiss it i try go a little deeper into it and say well wait a minute let's step back from this a little bit and if you think to ouch our this is stanshall situation how unlikely it is so we are even hear that conscious the six that this civilization exists i mean hey you know in in the in the from the standpoint of the improbable since we're living in a very improbable situation you know it which you know i know i think this is going on i think that life is probably widespread in the universe i think intelligence is rare and the
that we find ourselves in that uh existential situation you know maybe we need to look take another look at this say well maybe this is not such a crazy idea you know that i mean i do think that intelligence you know it is we're not the only ones and i think you know i don't know degenerating into incoherence here but i think that intelligence can have an influence on the evolution of even the first you know it's a force in the universe and i think that mine is probably you know as primary a feature of really holiday is the quantum foam i mean it may not may not even be separate from it you know so it's okay to say we don't know and in a one of the face with science is it tends to be arrogant
tends to assume that it knows a lot more than it knows and we actually have we have a very detailed understanding scientifically of very small pieces of reality you know and so there's a tendency to say well we've got it all figured out no you haven't got it figured out you haven't got even a tenth of it figured out which is another useful message that ayawaska other in theater other psychedelics a reminder suv i mean i can never fails to remind me and a lot of people remember you don't know shit you don't know shit you know so get off your high horse an b a little more humble and be open to learning and saw right in front of us if we go back and look at what we know about human history and
what they knew and how we laugh at what they knew then right you know we we can go back to the time when they thought the world was flat back to the time where you know they were the killing you know because he thought that the universe was infinite back to that mean there's all these different things that people like had a consensus on there were absolutely incorrect that we go hahaha back then we were foolish that was a blink of an eye go right right and so the messages beware of what everybody knows beware of cultural consensus because chances are in a hundred here's what we thought we knew will just be seen in that light i mean we were so stupid back then yeah it's also one of those things too when you're discussing aliens will be discussing the possibility of an alien life form we want to think it's preposterous but we're preposterous
if we if we didn't exist actually more god we've actually most ridiculous thing ever right behind our praepostor hide me dead people that were locked in a cage and i honor them did you look at these photos behind me of jimi hendrix and the elves actually apparently wasn't really a mug shot you just a law enforcement nut wanted to get this picture which is even more ridiculous he loved the fact that people got locked into cages so much he wanted to get a fake picture of him locked in a cage is most likely was high as fuck on pills you know many wendy nix in to be a drug exactly i said sir and then this woman rosa parks she got arrested because she had too much melanin or scanned this in a certain spot on a having a piece of transportation and then she was celebrated as a hero i mean we're crazy yeah right he also totally what would that just the fact that we exist at all why we deny the idea that something else far more advanced than us exist somewhere else no
different than us looking at you know we i'm primates using tools and evidence of using tools without any human intervention figured out how to do it on their own like to get ants out of an hills and things like that were fascinated by it amazing we've we've discovered jesus it's easy shit you know like compare us to something else they would probably it's the same way look at these dummies there worshipping people that were locked in cages you know there right right you're a hero 'cause you're sitting in a different class that's the thing where where is an experiment of some sort and whether you know we are you know some civilizations some super civilization as genetically engineered this whole ecosystem and create after fan and then seeded into the ecosystem knowing that to over the course of evolutionary time it was going to develop things like psilocybin and serra told and it's almost as though
the civilization this hypothetical civilization wanted some please talk to and in order to do that it had to invent us primates you know and it had to get us talking first to our plants and eventually will get a chance to talk to them whoever they are you know or maybe they're already here i mean there are a lot of people say there are here and now and i yeah i don't know who knows the other problem is to so many people that are full of well that is in this is that the area where flaky mrs flourish if you hugely id i had this if i show and we stop doing it for and they wanted to keep i didn't want to do anymore because i got tired of talking to liars i couldn't handle it anymore we interviewed a people in people and some of them are well intentioned folks
there was a lot of liars there was a lot of people that were just there was a psychological issue and i can clearly see it 'cause when you podcast with someone you sit down with someone for three hours you can well shoot someone for a seven minute interview on the news show but you can't bullshit someone for three hours after three hours weird things start to show up like weird aaron's or you just can't keep the king pizza rhythm up so to speak right especially if you could do multiple podcasts like crack you after two or three i'll find you you might be very clever but after two or three little things get exposed like meskerem we've always reveal the base now here we are basketball to keep the rhythm going it's just after a while if you're full of shake your foolish it also to yourself and that's something that i found is that people that are constantly deceptive they're
internally deceptive and that manifests itself in weird things that they say that they don't even realize or bizarre 'cause they also easier to trick them selves i think because i think they look is their ability to really to to see things objectively false about falsifiable fact yeah things that you can prove that that's true or not the scientific method is important and all this theoretical conversation is nice about whether we had we have the imprints of other civilizations in our our e go system but the fact is we have an ecosystem and we have maybe we do ourselves that we have some control over its evolution or stewardship of it but we certainly have this opportunity to to either destroy the plan
or or preserve it but we certainly have an effect and we're certainly conscious in some way shape or form of that effect and when you extrapolate that to one hundred thousand million years from now if this civilization or something similar survives i think that it's going to be something like an alien invasion that we we we we really will be like that saying that wants to see the universe we read yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah especially being if you're an intelligent being and you recognize that a star is a finite we woulda stars only good to support life for another billion years right that's not a lot of time if you stop and think about how long time is existed on earth and if you are an intelligent species that lived one hundred million years from now and you're like hey you know we only have nine more of these to go we have nine more of these one hundred million cycles and then we're fucked then this sun burns out and there's no life here we gotta get moving definitely true stuck here yeah that's very interesting i've often thought that at least
cosmological models i think we got more than a billion years the cosmological model say into one hundred billion years be a true years lightly armed with the son i think that that told the sun the sun doesn't have much our planet it's a carport lights got for maybe four billion years but if we haven't figured out how to get out at that time were not paying attention and you know we're getting these because they are gay and exactly or getty and that's a very important point that you know i mean this i've been told on psychedelics many times the only way out is to go in you know but but this you know these cosmological models if you look at them which are kind of dreary and dip team when you think about it you know it's just now the current model is just endless expansion and not only expansion but accelerating expansion you're talking about that he does of the universe and you know not very
that's interesting is going to happen but the the factor that these models do not do not integrate into their plantis minden consciousness you know that makes all the difference that you know look far enough ahead that's going affect the way the cosmos evolves and uh uh when they don't take that into account and it's impossible to really know what the effects of it is but i don't buy the in fact that it's all going to just kind of peter out and play the last flicker it's going to go out and it's just darkness and cold i don't buy that surely this going to be more to it than last movie in which might be what we're missing are in the in our trip may be yeah i exactly i mean if you look at quantum models and we know there's three dimensions of space and one of time
but then there's the what is it the six hundred or eight other dimensions that are all folded and then you don't see that but what's in there right what's in there but that's the feeling that you get on dimethyltryptamine is that you've entered into a new area a new space and that space is somehow another inhabited with something that's communicating and some non verbal form that reaches you as intent it reaches you like content try that that might be where consciousness is headed once we free ourselves from this sort of a shell that were were we're clinging to yell that we might figure that out there like all that we were we were at a rest stop we didn't realize that we could drive just a
for miles down the road and there's the yellowstone national park like we could do the rest stop we thought that's where we were going the food truck a farce and we we saw there was no oh my god we just had to just figure it out i don't i don't i don't miss that possibility i mean this this our youth our relationship and add that we say about dan i've now life style this thing mushrooms other cycle mixed with especially mushroom seemed to set up this die log situation you know when you're getting this information but it's very hard to evaluate it's whether bull or whether there's something to it my my brother used to play games with them shrooms you know when he would take them at these high doses alone and and say well how do i know that what you're telling me is real tell me something
you cannot possibly know you know an they would never they would cough it up 'cause it was like you know but it was like alright i want the blueprints to the starship now you know download the blueprints now and i believe that you're you know that you are what you say you are an they're very evasive you know they never give you that kind of thing but they so you know i don't i have this thought on for people have heard this podcast unfortunately i have to repeat myself we have this idea that we have this this dismissal of experience hallucination hallucination being frivolous and my thought is that if you absorb some sort of psychedelic compound an have this intense moment where you do pass into another dimension and you you mean
with pure love and the very wiring of the converse is exposed to you and you get to see the fractal nature of reality and some incredibly profound form and that is what you're actually experiencing or if it's just your imagination and you go there and it's all in your mind but you have the maxine experience it's still the same like this idea yeah that everything that's real has maybe you have to be able to take a tape measure and touch it that you have to be able to put it on a scale that you have to be able to quantify the ingredients oh well it's made out of aluminum and this is glass and you know the keyboard is plastic now i know a laptops real but i'm to tell you it's all hallucination right right i mean sleep dwell in a hallucination that's what that's what the brain does it creates a model of reality that is that we
even we never experience reality you know i mean we take it on faith really that there's an external reality out there but everything comes to us through the filter and is processed and a extruded if you will into a more this comprehensible most of the time model of reality and that's where we live reality is out there somewhere it's unknowable you know but we're getting sick wells through this sensory neural interface and and the brain is basically a processing device it takes that information combines it with internal associations and everything and generates the hallucination that you and i and everybody else are living in at this very moment you know we're all part of this constructed reality so people dismiss it as you know psychedelic experiences hallucination i would say no it is
but it's just another hallucination and it's all hallucination it's all or at least interpretation of something personal interpretation a personal interpretation i mean the world physics we know enough through physics about supposedly external reality to know that it doesn't look anything like what we're experiencing you know it's all but in electrons most of its empty space this table is not solid it's mostly empty space it's all energean enerji fluxes weed experience of the world that way most of the time sometimes on psychedelics we do so maybe we're getting an actual peak into the way it's really constructed that we get we get to look at the circuit ford in turn it over temporarily and look at it this is how it's wired you know this this is the reality generating machine that you get to look at
you strip away you know the the cover off and look at the way it's it's uh the diagram is wired then you get some insights into it so then that's useful thing because then you can go back and you could say well none of this is real let's not get carried away that you know this is any more real than anything else it seems to be like the the information's coming from folks that study subatomic particles that that information is one of the most undeniable pieces of information that the universe is not what you think it is it's not what you say it just it's impossible for it to be what you think it is when you study subatomic particles right when you study things that can exist two places at the same time like what do you talk in about like they blink in and out of existence what does that mean when they go away i mean they go away they go when they come back with the fuck are you saying they go away and they come back are they here they not here right well they are and they're not well they move yes
but they also stand still at the same time right watson like super position like when someone i had doctor and mikkel swamis a theoretical physicist he tried to explain superposition to maine and i was like wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute it's moving still at the same time right right right what are you talking yeah like what does that mean so here you have physics you know the absolute sort of cutting edge science the one we've charged with explaining the fundamental nature of reality and you talk to these people and it sounds like the ravings of schizophrenic it sounds like someone who's on drugs yeah it does indeed it sounds like someone who have the mathematics and the measurements and all that to back it up and say look i'm sorry this is how it is like sweat arm method our instruments tell us if want to trust that we sent a scout scout went over the top of the hill and saw the impossible
yeah came back okay nine year out don't go over there it becomes a rainbow that talks to you right yeah that that is it it's fascinating because the the the x x nations of reality by physicists are in fact more bizarre than the experiences that are related by people who take ayawaska absolute those are way more believable right then particles super position or the fact that it's all empty space moving in vibration and what what no it's would and we talking about this is would hear it that's not hit you over the head that's going to hurt this is real there's no empty space there dude you're crazy but no that's what is yeah well it's
israel yes you know our experience even you experience you can't dismiss it you can't say it's not real right it's just not necessarily the absolute reality and i don't know if there is an absolute reality i agree with you i think that's also one of the transformative parts of the uh psychedelic experience that the experience itself is trash formative because you're experiencing it doesn't matter if it's not real what what does that mean it means nothing means nothing not ariel these are the sir dualistic delusions you know it's none of it's real it's all real so established established fact that when you get to the lowest measurable portion of reality when you get to subatomic particles it's fucking mad ok so let's go from there and then let's look at well it's all in your imagination well look at what that means because everything you see on this planet that
human being has made has somehow or other popped out of the imagination the imagination is a factory for the visions and the internet and airplanes right condoms right and i glasses and wrap tops i mean the imagination as a mother and we have this idea of the imagination is this frivolous thing big really just sits in the field and imagines what the world could be how 'bout you dig a ditch billy just gotta work billy hammer some nails and be a man pull yourself up by your boot straps and stop crying 'cause you're freaking out about the fact that everything's air everything particles the whole story or use it in a field and you know you take lsd and your steve jobs and you have all these fantasies except then you actually make it happen when you create the apple computer or whatever and that was a psychedelic vision ann was at the time and remains so and
you know this thing here i mean this is the little psychedelic toy of the future you know it's in my hand that it just say when you ask it questions and it goes online and it gives you the answer so that entire volume of human understanding on that subject the consensus this is you know like we were just exploit explaining what the chemical definition of psilocin is the description of it you can find that out like that i had to go to you you're an expert you you he came to me with your a your education you explain it to me and but any one can do that with their phone just tap into the database ryan yeah so some that's a threat cold we've crossed in the last dec eight or so where basically the sum total of human knowledge is right here and that's incredible for
for transformation for creative thinking all of these things that's something we've never had before that and the connectivity the other thing is now there's seven and people or something like that on the planet well you know i don't know what the statistics are but for billion of them have cell phones you know so we've i mean they don't all have smartphones but they got some kind of a cell phone and so they are tapped into this database and that's making a big difference uh the way that you know formally franchise populations interact i mean you know you're a fish farmer and you have some fish to sell you can go on your cell phone and say oh well if i go to this village here i'll get a better price for that but uh little thing but in fact that decision effects ucommerce
global scale if enough people are tapped into that anyway your brother was obsessed with december 21st two thousand and twelve being some sort of a transformative moment in our history and a lot of people were me included i guess we can put that to rest i guess we can kenley that's that's one of the things that i've been thinking oh yeah yes as a specific day but if you really look at like the tipping point of technology technology and are connectivity and you know that's kind of where it whether it's one thousand and eight or two thousand and twelve when you're looking one thousand years from now when they talk about the renaissance you know when they talk you know but what what it whatever great periods of of human history run a winner but very a it's i can't periods of change this is gonna be one of the biggest ever and it really will boil down to these decade
these elise these up for a year so his his error i thought since i was kind of a critic of the time way for exactly this site but for folks i don't know explain what that means that his idea that he created a mathematical model based on the yichang that he claimed described structure of time i mean he postulated that time had the structure and time had an end or at least history had a tendon that that end was december 21st two thousand and twelve and there's know linkages to the mayan calendar which supposedly similar things it was mistake to link it to a particular day i that's not the way that novelty the idea was that this wave describe the way that novelty in ingressed
the continuum well i think that novelty and grasses in the continuing my i mean every day there's something new under the sun there something that's never happened before in history of the universe it happens but it doesn't explode the continuum it more like it seeps into the continuum but change does happen and uh we're going through a period of tremendous change but it's not linked to a particular day so what i say is he wrong as far as the particulars were concerned it wasn't december 21st two thousand and twelve but he totally right in terms of the idea novelty does increase and it has increased and it's increased it's increasing then it's accelerating and all you have to do is look around you know and he was clearly right i mean if you look at where we are now even from where we were ten years ago and even
twenty years can any of us even remember what it was like twenty years ago you know i mean the world is completely trance yeah so he was correct in that sense you know that that that you know things are changing what maybe and in just putting a date to it and giving people something to focus on he made idea more tangible for some it made it more fishable but i think it wasn't i think it was uh not necessarily a good strategy because it people were giving into the temptation of focusing on that and it was either on that date either everything is going to collapse or will pass the threshold and everything will be great and uh it's kind of a consciousness will be transformed and will be in this golden state and i i thought it was kind of a for many people it's an excuse for not taking risks
stability i mean it's a and and just all we have to do is wait and then it'll all work out no you know old not taking responsibility we've got to get cracking now all we can't wait we can't wait so now that didn't happen so with the message is the same we've got to get cracking and we can relax it's ok the aliens land no wormholes appeared before our eyes yeah none of that happened but it does i mean the things aren't happening and you know case italy make change i think happened quietly you know they're not notice they're not mendis we know with with obvious exceptions like you know yeah global asteroid impact i mean hey that's abrupt and transforming no doubt but that only happens once every few million years offense normally
don't explode into history that way i mean terrence used to talk about the you know the the first explosion of the atomic bomb you know well that was an abrupt if it but really i mean the when did the actual novelty take place when einstein developed the equations that describe nuclear fusion or was it the fish now was at the point where uh you know we achieved the first sustained nuclear reaction i mean these were not things that anybody noticed at the time but those were the transformative offense that made it pop able to a couple decades later dropped the atomic on the atom bomb on hiroshima you know the one that got the headlights but that wasn't really the roots of the novelty if you know what i'm saying no i totally know what you're saying and it seems that they're all pile onto each other as well they pile on to each other and their cumulative exactly
and we haven't even started most likely now we haven't started which is why the concept of an alien invasion seemed so ridiculous to us on our current capabilities but so inevitable when you think about the fact that we got robots wandering around on mars right now as we speak i mean what would we would we think we're going to do mean what we do the most perspective cular thing we do we have two things we do we blow shit up and we explore space those are the two things that gather the most attention right we can blow up a city or we can send a robot to wander around on mars and send back videos and you'll like holy ship those are the you know it like a very distinctly different but this does exemplify the limits of our power yeah we have per hour to completely you know disrupt the shooting match and it just it all turns into radioactive slag or we escape some
and i think you know i think it's wonderful that we could send robots to mars and all this but space is so fast it's never really going to become accessible to us unless we can figure out this hyper light thing and i don't know if it's traveling hi april you know traveling fast the light or figuring out how to open up a portal i mean this idea that you know there's tony and space separated by this vast distances i don't buy it i think there's a way to get from one place to another without going through new today to hyperspace it's a real thing well it might get down to to learn how to navigate it it might get down so we just have to be stopped being carbon based lifeforms right now that may be released right yeah right right it may end up that way too when you when you look at the possibility that dimethyltryptamine
and a similar psychedelics are a gateway to to some other thing weather another dimension and the state being another the access to a part of the mind that that doesn't doesn't exist do you think that that is that is that something that try to figure out how to say this but is that something that is like going to take a long time before that's something that you could pass off to other folks that haven't experienced that and have them accept it and is there bridge to sort of getting them to consider these ideas well i really i i don't know i mean the bridge the the most convincing thing is you know here's the here's the pipe smoke the pipe you don't need me to tell you as you mentioned before and it's quite true one of the beautiful things about
psychedelics is you don't have to have faith all you have to have is courage you know you have have enough courage to sit down and put that pipe to your lips and you know we can get beyond this conversation very quickly then we can have real conversation about what is all that mean what it what happened and what is the real what happened are we you know are you tapping into some external again these it's ridiculous words that that are dualistic and hence but are you tapping into some dimension that is not part if you or is it or are you looking at you know a certain neural chemical brain state that has the doesn't go beyond that and then it's like we can
fall back on what we were saying everything you experiences of neurochemical brain state right where that's what we are that's what our brain does so find it do you define it yourself like when you when you do it what do you think is happening dmt yes which is the most profound one i think well it's you know the problem with psychedelics one of one of the problems we experience with psychedelics is they're essentially on the language bold there beyond language and you tmt or something like it that has such a profound impact i mean you probably noticed it in yourself here now even down from the experience before you're trying to box it into some kind of a linguistic bar
that's you know when you're reaching out and you're babbling they say that's it that's it or by god my god or you know but to put it into some kind of a linguistic box because because it's in comprehensible by nature it's incomprehensible it's like trying to describe what god looks like it is by definition undescribable and so but our brain wants to conceptualize thing so so whatever model you create of what it is that's not it that's not the thing it's not what you experienced it's a memory of of what of what you experienced and uh i do know how you get around that you know i think that uh
well i i don't know it seems like even exploring the concept itself is almost impossible with almost experience almost impossible i mean it i mean so asking me to a supply a linguistic description so i with the caveat that any linguistic descript it's going to be an adequate i would say a lot of what my questions uh of dmt are the most profound experiences are it strips away you get to see the raw data the raw data of experience in the unprocessed form you know how we were talking about how the brain takes experience and and you know put all together into some kind of more or less comprehensible model an extrudes it out as as you know your reality your movie the movie that your producer director and star of and it does that
emt gives you a chance to kind of arrest that process and again as i said step back from it and look at the raw data look at the circuitry underneath free interpretation and say oh okay this is that this is the machinery this is the machinery that generating reality but but even saying that i don't do it justice i mean it's it's slippery obviously it's a slippery concept intensely intensely and i always wondered like what is the if there is a way to describe it to someone who hasn't experience and i don't think there i think there is and even to those of us who have experienced it you can't describe it after all you have is a member i'd been tricked like that's not anything like terence mckenna or dennis mckenna
scribe did what it what was your experience like no self transforming machine elves well i'm thinking of of my first mushroom experience but now no my first d m t experience was i mean it sounds trivial but it was sort of like some sort of ginger bread plato that was a live in talking to me and i just some sort of one aspect of the godhead with gingerbread or play sort of transforming gingerbread people i guess there in late if it didn't look like an elf but it kind of had that aspect yeah certainly felt alive like it had been waiting for me yeah that's the weird one see me yeah so the weird one is the timeliness of it and i felt dead that was my overwhelming feeling was oh no i really done it
but in the back of my mind i knew that i was coming back i was still sitting in my chair and before i knew it was over and i was doug stanhope who's a good friend of mine stand up comedian did dmt with me the first time ever did it how to my house and he went into convulsions which i've never seen before and what is five m e and l yeah he started moaning and foaming at the mouth like he was like like rules coming out his mouth he's going on and i was thinking did you die from this shit never heard of anybody done fuckd i just killed my friend damn how am i going to explain this and i've never i've never seen anybody have that experience before or since and it was weird it was who is moaning there's a big dose he took a big dose and uh you know when he came back just just filled with descriptions
when adequate you know which we all are but foxy is even trickier than dmt i don't know i mean i've had very limited experience with five methoxy because it's too much yeah i didn't i didn't think i was coming back yeah that's my maybe that's exactly the one we should be looking into i mean you know but it has more it issues with toxicity of all clapped him to but it's definitely puts you in this uh in this place you know james aurochs book the trip to mean alice no you should with him and this shows tryptamine palace james oroc who how do you spell it oroci believe five aksi dm this is all about five methoxy dmt that's a whole book yeah
and he says uh you think dmt is something five methoxy is where it's really at and i can't dispute that because actually it scares the shit out yeah it was different for me because it didn't give me the sort of comfort that dmt did that it was sort of talking to me communicating with me it was completely absent of any context it was impossible to exactly that's what it was there were no friendly elfin no gingerbread people know elf machines no nothing like that it was like you were you were my apprehension was that was that i was part of this ort cloud of souls i reserve part of this somewhere somewhere there's a place where all conscious entities arose from and go back to when i was in the center of this galactic cloud of of being you know
i mean i sort of had that dm awareness of my existence is a separate entity but mostly i was part of this so cloud and it is the best i can describe it you know and by the time i came back be all that was that was all completely faded though as it tended to that was that was twenty years ago that i had that experience so that's still resonate with me i am done it since i've only had it a few times and i didn't want to go back again and i was like i got it i got that what we're is the island and anti missile tryptamines was it is different every time and seemed like it was a communication like something talking to me like there's a lot going on the visual aspect of it was way more compelling thirty ferry little visual aspect with five methoxy was just white
and it was like it felt like i didn't have a consciousness anymore so anything they have ever done that seem to eliminate consciousness right wasn't didn't matter like to either the vaguely aware of the dalai aware of the fact that you exist at all well my more terrifying aspects of it it's like oh this probably what happens when you die yeah probably go into this thing and become whatever part of this cloud this community info for souls switches every every conscious being that ever existed anywhere in the universe it's a game i most tangible feeling of there not being an up and not being it down there's no there's no right through the whole thing you know and then you're part of the whole thing and it just goes everywhere you're not in the middle you're not in the centre you're not in the left not to the right it's just show the whole thing you know and you know it's an illusion and that that was the with the weird
aspect of the planets were an illusion that the everything's a lil wind all that nonsense just a part of the whole when you get down to the lowest thing you're a part of the whole soup yep yep he thought that he refers to it as zero energie point field oh yeah which yeah i mean that's definitely uh uh worth putting on your map and if you're brave enough for foolish enough it's probably worth exploring but i'm i'm too old for that not that the seasonal my friend it took it and he took a huge dose 'cause he didn't believe it was that he had never done any dmt before an he's an acid and i had never done acid before and i was telling him about dmt as i push even ever have done acid so he
he takes the empty in a big dose than the calls we have is like kill don't man and like i told you like no you didn't tell me you're trying to told me about it listen holy like he was convinced that he died he was a believer at all why was he ever yeah yeah it was you know it's it very disturbing but again impossible to ignore transcendent experience yeah it is i think salvia diven norum can take a person to a similar space sort of you feel that you're no longer a point of consciousness except it it does feel like a cloud it feels like a mexican dance party or something it's like such a metric things going on isn't it because it slipped through that the salvia slip through and it took a while before people realize it slipped through you
legally yes yes it's through because it's it's own best insurance against abuse most people are like once is enough never can do one of these ones like five methoxy i mean most some people to to be fascinated by it they keep going back to it and but most people find it very disturbing and not not particularly enjoyable and actually just bizarro you know but and these are areas of consciousness these pharmacological tools are you know their exploratory probes into these realms of consciousness and just because you're familiar with the psychedelic experience which is mainly the tryptamine mediated serotonin
to mention there all those other dimensions out there and they are aspects of consciousness to salvia diven happens to be the kappa opioids you know it's a kappa opiate like and it's very selective for you know we don't think of opiates is going to those places you know heroin more feed those sorts of things there you for eight chan told you know almost sedated states of mind with op eight which is the old one of the three opiate receptors that them happens to be the one that salvia divinorum texas it's a whole other ballgame you know i mean it's not uh certainly not thing that anyone would seek out you know certainly not addictive but so that home of consciousness is mediated by that whole network if you look at the tourist the nightshades the anticholinergic starts working on
little choline there acetylcholine blockers so that's a whole other neurotransmitter system an if you look into you know that they have a long history of use obviously and they seem to be if you into the use of toll in south america to weigh fancy at where you look at the torah other night shades in europe this is the realm of rafe's and ghosts and that sort of thing even is a very interesting one too because of the reality dissolving properties of it where people think that there's where that they're not and they have a rich huge issues with memory yeah i think that's the destruction of the acetyl choline well yeah it does it does disrupt memory yeah we know that the seal coleen has a lot to do with the entrainment of memory and then to turn a deterrent to truck slapped so
hard to remember the state which is probably a good thing because the states are really bizarre i tell people to turret you knows j two is not a psychedelic but it's a true hallucinogen in the sense that if it's not a psychedelic state you have hallucinations the problem is you can't tell if the real or not usually a psychedelic hallucination you know it's not real you may be seeing something that's not there but a part of your mind that same them this is a hallucination here it's not there you know you see things on to tourists you don't know so there or not there you know you if i could i could have a loose nation i'm sitting across from you talking and you seem as real and solid as you do now you know but you not there thank you have a minute with you and then you sort of just
fade away like kind of a race you know you're sort of like what the fuck where did you go is that what's happened to you if you know that's what happens what happened to you when you do that that's what happ you're you're talking to someone they were at the blue really didn't exist yeah yeah well liked i took to tour you describe this in my book actually i have a whole chapter of other friend of mine and i cook d'atura when we were sixteen even knowing what it was i mean this is how clueless we were at the time i actually thought it was a kind of morning glory i i it had lst once in my life and we took these to tour and i thought it was a different species of morning glory somewhat all this stuff began to happen i told this is what a bad acid trip is like one and no it's not what a bad acid trip is like it's what a totally typical eurotrip is like an its characteristic that you
she to tease you see things that aren't there and i was an it was quite anxiety provoking and uh my friend i was in my bedroom i managed to you know you have to read the chat here but i finally got to my bedroom i barricaded myself with my bedroom my mother was completely freaked out you know as to what was going on i just said mom how old you i'll be out in twelve hours so it's ok don't worry how old are you sixteen oh that's awesome so i'm in the bedroom and one of the weird things i guess people who take to turn should be four ward one of the things that does is dilate your eyes right there but it's used medically to let your eyes atropine miss what they put in your eyes to do an eye exam what that means
is your eyes are dilated so you can't see very well and so any modeled surface anything with a texture like tablecloth or wallpaper anything you look at star to swarm and is and the next thing you know they are bugs everywhere for me so it was like the bug experience there were insects all surfaces were like cover it with these swarming you know things which were the distortions of not being able to focus on anything but i was totally freaked out by this and so my friends or images of my friend kept appearing at the edge of my bed at the end of my bed and they would appear and i would say help me help me get me out of here i mean you know and they would
just look at me and like you know you poor sap shake their head and then just fade away it's it's if fastening that has something to do with acetyl choline yeah you ever experimented with taking acetyl choline before you go to bed i haven't it's a it gives you the most amazing considering amazing dream so i'm not surprised yeah fascinating brown when i called durable lucius reams run because i'm not lucid dream like i i'm not disciplined in i definir study did i don't practice it apparently this techniques that you can you can learn how to like successfully lucid dream on on the natch as it were but if you take acetylcholine before you go to bed like a couple hours before you go to bed you have loose choose with you like it or not it's just more make your dreams are more durable when where is me personally when i'm aware
my dreams normally they'd fade away like i'm dreaming and that's gonna wake up right so what's so you're you're just boosting what's a natural process because when you go to sleep your brain becomes flooded with acetyl coal yes right and these deterrence these beasts tropane alkaloids what they do is block acetyl cold they block the receptors so they're acetylcholine that called the technical term is aunt cholinergic they block a seal pulling from binding to its receptor so that's the basis of the altered state consciousness an interesting lee enough the detour state of mind resembles it resembles profound sleep deprivation if you keep yourself awake for
five days you will have experiences and hallucinations that are almost indistinguishable from a state of deterrent toxication it's bizarre i don't recommend it by the way i mean don't do that or or we do deterrent have somebody there is looking after you because you really can't do distinguish reality and you do silly things you know i had a friend who took to one time and he spent the whole time dismantling his motorcycle engine on the floor on his kitchen floor taking it apart and cleaning it and put it back together he did and a motorcycle
so what was my god what if he learned how to do it though what if he gave a motorcycle engines like i've done this and then he starts doing all the other quickly able to do uber bizarre what is that there's that drug they use force for air sickness scopolamine yes that's the one that's the same thing to him that colombian psychoactive alkaloid in detour and bella dawdle and this is the one that does but there are other alkaloids but it's primarily scopolamine wow and they used to use medically they use to use kapala mean because it's for per child birth back in the days of barbarism when they thought women in order to give childbirth give birth had to be put in that
it had to be drug you know they used kopala mean to put them in a twilight state like a hypnotic like state of semi consciousness and then they could have the bait and of course they didn't remember any of that experience of which was sort of the point i guess how does nicotine fit in because one of my most intense lucid dreaming experiences was with uh teen patch nicotine has the opposite effect to that row pains nicotine is what's that rope it's called little choline antagonists nicotine is an antagonist so asin acetylcholine like effect which is why when you smoke you get this sort of kog dave activation you know it's great settle down and focus their attention on a task it activates cognition
a lot of the research now on alzheimer's and other dementias are finding things that either have this uh this colon cholinergic ag the fact like nicotine or they block acetylcholine from being broken down there little cholinesterase inhibitors acetylcholinesterase is the and it that breaks down acetylcholine i don't smoke cigarettes but i i found it absolutely fascinating reading stephen king's book on writing where he talked about when he stops multi cigarettes it really affected his writing process absolutely i'm not surprised that wouldn't you know didn't really fire up the way it is right that's right yeah so now we've again got off the track and we all fit in the
golds of pharmacology fascinated no means off track at all i mean it's all interesting because it's all in relationship to what we understand currently about compounds that affect the human body and what you're doing with the ethnobotanical stewardship council is to try to educate on these things try to expand consciousness and awareness of these things and really just just mon input energy behind it part of it is education it's developing a model of self regulation that can improve the safety of people that want to use these no plants but one thing i want to be clear about is that we are ourselves not setting a standard for sale are engaging open dialogue we're kind of setting the table for janice groups and people that run retreat centers
people that are selling i'll oscar online etc all the people that are involved in the kind of value chain of alaska to come together and determine what is sustainability at the site level look like ecotourism how are you giving back to the community to the biodiversity of the place where you're wary of your site how are you making sure people in the ceremony are safe that their screens logically or for heart conditions are not taking antidepressants they have people babysitting or so people don't wander off into the jungle the anti depressants an interesting one what's the issue with that well the issue with antidepressants and and i alaska is i involves can false mao inhibitors right and so it prevents the town of t m t right and the but
and so there's a lot of dmt in your city it's a serotoninergic agonist right and so the answer depressants so you are piling on one chick agonist on another kiss your inhibiting the breakdown process and males involved in breaking down both dmt and serotonin so the safety wise the issue is that it could lead to what's called a serotonin syndrome there a tunnel syndrome is something that happens when you got too much serotonin too much uh machine the serotonin button a little bit too hard and it could need hyperthermia an cardiac
irregularities and ultimately death if it's really bad you want to avoid the serotonin syndrome if possible that's fascinating because that's also an issue that people have if they take ssr eyes and they want to consume tryptophan or five htp exactly exactly that's also one way to do it and in some ways the psychedelic experience itself is kind of skirting this i mean you're pushing the serotonin button right but in most cases with psychedelic you you haven't inactivated the somatic breaks that are that are metabolize see this stuff so it's not an issue with sidewalks it's it's only an issue if taking ssr ssris or if you're taking mao inhibitors which most people
they're not used clinically anymore there's a whole older generation of antidepressants that are maoi inhibitors you shouldn't you shouldn't come by those with ayawaska and you shouldn't combine ssr eyes with ayawaska the the they may be a theoretical hazard there's i haven't seen a lot of reports serotonin syndrome happening with ayawaska but so it's a theoretical hazard i'm sure there are people taking serotonin uptake inhibitors are taking ayawaska there's no problem but they're probably taking lower doses it's just a good idea to get off those things uh you take i'll is it a did you get off of things period yeah
i mean it's just a few cam if you not for everybody they really help some people but a lot of times a antidepressants are over prescribed and over used for too many things they don't they don't really help people get to the root of their problems they kind of band aid it over and you feel so normal you know and you can be a pretty citizen and you don't really think about things too much they're prescribed for ptsd you know but they don't cure ptsd they just kind of dampen it down and and bury it don't give you an opportunity to really you look issues and working through this is why you know psychedelics are not a good mod for big pharma big pharma wants things like ssr eyes which you take every day for the rest of your life that's the business model cycle
like sir things that you might take a few times and work through your issues and you don't need antidepressants after that i've talked to many many people who said you know who i've been on anti depressants they go to south america they take a few i oscar sessions they never have to go back to antidepressants again i mean they can get off at for good many people have that experience that's a huge problem financially from pharmaceutical creek well you don't see him piling on sakhalin these sorts of an i o yeah this one yeah if it's not going to work that way because big farm they want drugs that people consume i think the way that i think one of the business model you can't use these drugs in therapy indiana therapeutic session without intense psychotherapy whether
that's actual cycle therapy or shamanism or some combination of those things these are drugs that have to be used in context the you know take two and call me in the morning model doesn't work for these these have to be used in a very very highly controlled sentence setting so i think where the business model comes it is you have places where people can go and get this kind of so it shifts from the i get the emphasis is on you know our whole biomedical industrial complexes set up to courage date solutions you know you have a problem you go see your psychiatrist he has seven minutes if he's lucky to talk to you here's a prescription get out of here you know that's the way it works with psychedelic you actually have to have a therapist who will sit down and talk with you this is whole novel concept and uh you know so i think
the business potential comes in is that too to have centers of therapy where you couldn't go and and get psychedelic therapy the emphasis is not more on the setting none the services provided than the actual chemicals yeah the setting in the the as possible in other countries where it's legal in america already happening yes america right now it's a huge issue but josh talking about selling ayawaska online i mean how many people do that in what's the legality when it comes to the plants themselves are not necessarily illegal right right dmt is illegal dmt is illegal but t is found in some any plants that so you know they can't
he make all those plants illegal because you know i mean they can but they are not going to be able to enforce it and it's not going to be able to have salad literally you're not going to be able to have salad i mean i'm you know harkening back to what we were about how close dmt is to tryptophan two steps away all but you i mean i wish somebody would do this there's no funding for this but i'll bet you if you had sufficiently sensitive instruments you could find dmt in all plants now you can just start randomly selecting them out of your backyard and run them through the mass spec or whatever you could pick up the t not in usable amounts but it's universally just you is drenched why do you think that is because it's so the tryptophan you know and it's just the the compound the tryptophan is universally distributed the enzymes that transform into to dm
we have other cellular functions so they are found in all cells they are just part of embolism and so it's just an accident of nature you know it's just it's just the way it is what a fascinating for its actually may be nature's trying to send us all a little message if you want to interpret it that way but it's just the way it is or it's just a part of the bill blocks the universe itself just part of the building blocks of exactly exactly and that kept doorway to another dimension exists in virtually everything that's alive uh huh what uh selling nine online i don't know if i don't know if people are selling i prepared ayawaska bruce on bruce online aren't are seems to be the case indiana in a gray area yeah i think that series
because sell it online well because it's a it's a drug that needs taken in an appropriate sentence setting it needs guidance so to sell it online is too big guilty of that whole thing take two and call me in the morning go off and do this with your friends with that let me know he shouldn't and and any real knowledge that's that's not ethical in my opinion that's how five me is acquired until fair reese yeah i when i bought five am you know i just bought online yes it's that delivered me enough to get the world yeah i mean it was a little i mean that you shouldn't you realize how potent and as more small does he need and if there they are sending you some giant supply of it that's an issue with with all of these things in the whole you know the whole decide
drug saying there are hundreds and hundreds of these things so i sort of say well you know we should stick with the plants at least we know what the identity of but but you know i mean i think that i mean synthetic out there people are going to use some its it comes back to education you know teach people how to how to use drug i ducation hasn't won't quite has quite grok to hasn't quite admitted that that is in fact that's real drug education not you know all drugs are bad never take it i mean that's absurd that's rich
this is how you lived through several errors of psychedelic awareness you you lived through the sixties you live through all that craziness you live through the seventies live to the clamp down and now oh you're here which is uh i think it's safe to call this the psychedelic renaissance i think this is this is the time well we'd like to think so i'm pretty positive yeah just at least it is in my reality there would reality that i experience right i mean i've never in my time seen psychedelics more reference that i see them today and in then it's because the company i keep part of it is because the message that i put out and the people that i interact with because of that i think also it's just it's just a matter cat got out back yeah the stigma is fading away the whole 60s baggage that psychedelics have been uh you know marginalized with for so long that's going away and a new more positive
perception is appearing as some of these therapeutic uses are becoming more aware in general consciousness so ptsd can be treated with m ds mdma we've got veterans out there who need them it's a hugely powerful message and if the department of defense is behind it it can't be bad kind of ironic mean isn't it for psychedelics has arisen from the the the war culture yeah we just totally ironic but so strange there it is and so these this is the messages are being heard more and more and there's less and less sort of you know partly because a lot of people 60s or dying off or whatever they don't remember but the knee jerk negative message about psychedelics is not happening as much
there's still much harder to distinguish now yeah the folks who use them and the hippies would write beads and the you know the the the the look which was so stereotypical of what you know the gold auto republicans found reprehensible that generation right they were lazy shiftless do for nothing people just want to get high and escape reality and that that that paradigm that perception is passing yeah it's all to the good what is it been like for you to experience these different waves well know why i haven't really been personally impacted by this this thing you know i mean i've i've been where i've been all the way through and not particularly public i'm much more pi
like now about it than i have been so i made maybe that's a difference but i don't feel that i have to be careful about talking about it in public i mean i'm i consider myself an advocate for responsible use you know and good science and i'm not even saying people should even take these things take it what i'm saying is if you decide to take it go into it with open eyes do some preparation pay attention to sentence setting do it in a way that you know if there benefits to be had maximize the benefits so approach it as a conscious a conscious exercise and uh you know uh an approach them with respect and in ten these are serious things what do you say to someone who has zero experience in these things and guarantee
right now this podcast is reaching people that have no psychedelics whatsoever they don't know anyone who is he and any psychedelic experience they don't know where to turn or where to start but they're very intrigued and the doors been open to them ok the first thing to do is get yourself educated about you know like sign up for this symposium right i mean watch the online thing but there are many other tools uh another group that i love to plug and i think they're doing a marvelous work is arrowood carrollwood dot org is online it's the best on main source of information about psychoactive drugs all kinds not just psychedelics it's the goat to place on the web if you want real solid information not bullshit not put out by the propaganda's put out by people who who's commitment is to accurate information start there it's fine
read about it there are trip reports there are safety reports that chemistry the the enfield bought me the part of it that the shamanic traditions it's all represented there that's the place to spell for p e r o w i d erowid dot org so there and read up about it educate yourself before you take the substance so that you can make an informed decision what's an appropriate method of use what are the right circumstances what are the hazards what do you not want to do that's the first thing and i i think again i think this symposium it's going to be great but it's also exemplary of what needs to happen and i'm really impressed that you know
young people like the folks that are organizing this conference are are stepping up to the plate and saying we want to make this a part of education you know an educational dialogue we want to have this happen on lots of university campuses lots of places that's the thing we have better tools now than we've ever had for sharing information take advantage of those tools you know before back in the 60s seventies you might not i have no experience with psychedelics and no real no way to know how am i going to find out about these things you know now it click of a mouse and near there
another there's no excuse for not educating yourself another very good site is i sears dot org i see e r s the international center for ethnobotanical ethno botanical education research and service based in in europe they have a ton of information about ayawaska and iboga the plant based psychedelics there also it sort of incubation partner for the esc helping yes he gets yeah i will gain is another fantastic drugs for dealing with addiction i have a good friend who had a back injury and got hooked on pain pills and the real problem and really couldn't check it i want to make go did i began became completely fascinated cured absolutely fascinated by i began and how is this possible that this is escaped western medicine
started his own i i began center down there and now you know regular i mean he's just a different human being when i talk to him he's just like so at peace and just has a different guy he knows himself in a different way running it breaks that that physical addiction to opiates instantly yeah the esc is of signing in random of understanding with the global i began therapist alliance to work on the safety and the sustainability of of that traditional plant it's under extreme pressure from the growing global demand it's traditionally from africa and it takes seven years for a mature plant to be grown and then you have to take the root out and kill the plant so there's a lot of work to be done is a global i began therapist alliance conference in durban this may as well
hoping to have some big announcements come out of that on the sustainability front so many things i am and i'm getting it never i mean it was it it never went away it was always there but it's you know it was suppressed essentially in western medicine i mean they had a perception that it had dope they were almost clinical studies approved by the fda and then they step back from it because of some supposed neurotoxicity which i don't think they ever satisfactorily demonstrated but that's a good example you know the therapeutic community was saying well game is so useful for this addiction therapy that we're just not going to put up with this and so i began his not illegal it's illegal in the states but it's not illegal in most of the world so these addiction treatment centers have blossomed all over the world
mexico south america even canada there treatment centers that use cybergames a to treat addiction and they've just said well you know after the fda we're going to step outside that framework and do it because it's important to get this therapy to people and that's that's all to the good i think that's a model may be for it's going to happen with sidewalk skin yeah i i would hope so and i would i would like to see what's going on right now with marijuana in this country slowly start happening with iowa oscar i became the psilocybin all the all these various things yeah do you have hope for that totale i do history is on our side and first thing i'd tell people that are considering psychedelics is put your preconception aside and just look at the facts what would you say to someone say we're talking about young people would have guys fifty
and you know maybe is going through a rough divorce and you know it's like man's fucking i need to reset my brain i need to figure this out but i don't know any nobody at the office knows i think about this stuff right smoke a joint right well i would say take it in a traditional context that you feel comfortable with take it in and if you're looking for psychological help maybe take it at a center that focuses on that if you want to if you've always been attracted to shamanic experiences than suss out which centers might best for you and read reviews of them and in two to three years the es we have a rating system or kind of star rating system for sites based how sustainable they are all safe side psychedelics not so much a yelp mean deeper level than a yelp because he can't fake it though
you can't take it but it's hard for somebody going in to see what kind of an impact the center has on the local community or where they're sourcing the i'll ask a come from comes from and that's where we're the yes he is bringing that professional expertise to to supplement what the community is doing and and certainly will rely on feedback from visitors that'll be part of the credibility in the transparency that we're building into the the way of assuring the sites are sustainable safe would be grievance mechanisms if you have a bad experience volume in five years five that's probably often stick time frame but hopefully in ten years they'll be places you can go and have these it's where you don't have to leave the country i mean you can already find them outside the country but it would be nice if there were places in the states where you could get this and it would it would transform psychiatric medicine if there was which is
him threatening to many people with a steak whole state in how it's done now but i talked to so many uh like my interests of other professionals that are involved in the mental health world they're very frustrated there like say these people are hurting and the way that we're handling them is not solving the problem it's only making it worse so you know their needs wholesale i would say overture name the transformation of the model i i think we're on the right track i really do i mean there's a lot of people that are cynical today and they look at today's culture and they look at the toxification our environment and the materialism and the nonsense on television they they see it as a bad sign but i really elect civilizations cramming civilizations cramming really do i don't think
just scrambling to try maybe we need something like all this nonsense that we experience on a daily basis to really motivate this global awakening we have to consume it to the extent that we're sick of it that it makes us sick and then we yeah that's the i you know you consume much of it that eventually you just regurgitated all at you feel much better afterwards you know i mean yeah but i think that's partly what we're doing it or so i think the most exciting thing too is that we have a way out or have a way up where is it's not like we're in this pit there's no ladder like there's parking lot hey guys we have the tools we have the tools i mean and they're incredibly profound an real you know these aren't radical things like we have a lot of these theoretical concepts about like fixing the plastic in the ocean well you know some night
your kid figured out a way that is a machine oops it up then it converts it into something usable then we use that for energy and thing is true with like nuclear waste or some theories about how to but those are all those are theory call dave they may or may not be effective they may or may not ever get built the latter is not be in your life yeah yeah right there but you know i mean it in respect to laugh we look at this dire existential situation the environmental crisis and all that and i take heart in the notion of never underestimate human ingenuity you know there are a lot of really smart people working on all these problems and that's my hope you know for our survival yeah i think that the engineer we will prevail i hope so because otherwise we're in and we're already deep the question is how do we how do we dig out of it it it it it know
why we have these smart brains you know we're not going to get there by being stupid yeah we've had enough of that and there's still plenty of it to go around and but we need to move beyond that you know and stop listening to a lot of people like our politicians for example who seemed to make a profession of stupidity in there actually out of their stupidity and that's distressing in my way in what way do you like me like sarah palin as such mean well yeah people like that you know the science deniers the people that you know i don't you know don't bother me with your fucking facts you know find is made up and you know when god told me this and you know this is horsh it i mean come on you know thinking at least should be criterion if you want to be a politician not somebody who's you know buying into some you know myth
from the fourteenth century i don't necessarily think most of them are buying into it i think what they've done is realize that there is a market for that that well there's just said again chunk of the population is terrified of change terrified of the pa well it is the unknown the intangibles and they would like something norman rockwell they would like you to paint i'm really clear and easy to recognize this pattern that they could jesus thank you jesus you know they just judging lord has me in so many ways and then just fucking themselves in this box perception and then polity since come along and they call that guy i know how to fucking play his heart strings right exactly well then you're part of the problem you're not really helping solve the problem you're taking advantage of what these people what i even karl rove called useful yeah people that want simple two so i call him simple answers for simple people hey get over there are no simple answers you know and what we need to be doing this
you for the real answers asking the hard questions realizing that it's all very complicated there are answers but is we're not going to get there through delusions and fairy tales you know we've got actually acknowledge and start thinking about this and start talking about it to other people in a real way so eleven these these people i mean the mushrooms are idiots sneeze i wasco she needs a dmt trip should be it's ahead with transplants as much and jeans yeah yes you would see would realize that she's right at the same time right mind blown in okay so the website for for the f the botanical stewardship council it's ethnobotanical council dot org and the symposium is spell
sam like as in psychedelic p posey am two thousand our team is april twelfth and thirteenth in amherst massachusetts right listen folks if it you know make it their side this symposium dot org symposia symposia simpler rosie dot org yeah yeah and if you can make it there beautiful if you can you pay to go there thirty dollars at the door twenty dollars in advance tickets thirty the door if you actually want to go but you can also watch it live for ten dollars online right deal and on your deal it's a so it's a great deal and you are contributing to something that is hugely important you are part of this whole movement there's something going on folks dennis your huge part of it joshua huge part of it that people listening to this podcast part of it it's all out there and it's moving it's moving in i think a good direction i really do one last plug
if i may three there's a congress that i'm going to next weekend in mexico to luka bringing together indigenous leaders with a boga peyote mushroom i alaska experience and they need of funding to attend to bring more of the the traditional healers to that conference called the second international congress on traditional edison and public health sacred plants culture and human rights and is this information all available on f no botanical council dot org can you can they find it there no but yeah that in the news section what the hell what the fox come on man we're all working together on this it just say it well i'd like to say joe also thank you for having us on and you my friend one of the change makers sure don't underestimate that i mean you're you're a hero
my oh that's a huge honor i'm a useful idiot what i am is a very useful you ain't no idiot i'm a repeater of things that are fascinating but i appreciate that very much and i feel as compelled as all of you to try to broadcast as much of what i've stumbled upon and and and talk about it as much as possible and it's impossible without guys like you so thank you all very mushy thanks to thank you for having us thank you to the listers were all in they should sit together people so why please go to ask the botanical council dot org go to symposia with p symposia dot org and uh that's it will be back next week with much more love yes then
Transcript generated on 2019-11-06.