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Is the code. Word Rogan in the Referral box at checkout and save yourself some money, that's legalzoom dot com. Do you, like my new song, very good? Thank you Yeah, don't use that Legalzoom I'll write a better one for it anyway. Emily and Vincent are here from Buddhist geeks and let's just get cracking my foreground legalzoom dot com, his co, don't open, podcast check it out. Logan experience trying my day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day I gotta figure out a better way to do commercials 'cause, it's always weird, with two people at a three or just sitting there, and one per in this talk and doing a bunch of it creates comfortable air in the room. I'm a little bit little bit it's a little odd Buddhist, geeks somebody sent me a link? I guess it was probably a couple weeks ago on twitter to you guys, and right away. I went this could be interesting, a can

agents of. Would you say spirituality, Buddhism and technology and geeks always is somehow connected with impaired Invision, which is very strange right, like being very studious and intelligent is connected to your eyes. Are fucked like every you know. I mean you're hearing it screens all day. I think is that what it must be right because, as I've spent more time in front of the computer, my eyes have steadily gotten worse, but your image, the logo, is the Buddha with glasses on so even the divine are not immune to the perils of lcd screens. True enough, is there a better way around this to to do something where it doesn't completely destroy your vision may be clairvoyant can develop that capacity. That's the only way. The reading does it to write, we've always associated reading with, or is it just old, and we

is blaming it on a bunch of other shit could be that, but I think it's staring at things up close, you know, there's just I think the eyes just get used to staring at things up close and I just can't see far away anymore. That's my theory with me. It's the opposite, though, my up close vision starting to suck, but my vision like looking at you guys. This distance is fine. It's perfect that might be age, then yeah, I'm saying this age. It's also because, when I put on reading glasses things just get sharper like on lots of things really would like. You like, I could read everything without the glasses, but they want to put a minus you like to give you know you know, look at pages. You can see the actual detail, the texture in the paper itself. That's all gone to me. That's all gone in the real world. What is Buddhist geeks, what you guys doing? Well, we started several years ago as a podcast doing this kind of thing talking to people and in the beginning it was just my sort of early twenties Eliot against the Buddhist tradition, and I

how to talk to people that weren't part of the main in this world, but had something cool to say. I thought so just basically started by talking to some different rebels, a lot of gen x, who we're kind of coming up as as teachers and meditation dino experts are masters, and it's started there just as a kind of wind project with a couple friends, and then people responded. So we kept doing it and we felt as of obligation to continue exploring Buddhism, Tech, ology culture. The way it's going blazing, and we just sort of from there just been on a sort of eight year odyssey, and only recently about four years ago can I join the team and we have been doing the mom and pop thanks. I love that Buddhism has rebels absolutely what is the main, what the main thing that people fight not fight against but rebel against with Buddhism

I think it's like most religions. You know, there's some aspect just rebelling against people telling you what to do or the feeling that you know this system of beliefs is telling you how to live in what to do with your life. I think that's part of it is just kind of breaking apart dogmatic structure. And sort of saying hey. Actually, we can make this our own and figure out how Do it ourselves because we're the ones that are interested in it, so we have to sort of take ownership of that and so there's a bit of like, I guess, generational push back Actually we don't want to meditate like the hippies. Did you know? We don't want lotus flowers and incense. You know we want like computer screens and meditation apps. You know we want to do it the way it makes sense to us, but is that an effective way to do it like meditation apps? Is that real, is it legit other, like some mended meditation, apps, there's better than traditional forms, a minute or an alternative? I should say to traditional forms of meditation. There are there's some good ones. I think they're good to start

as soon as you start really getting into it. Though, then it's useful to, I think, still meet space has the upper hand over the app space, interesting yeah, but I'd Rick beautify. That was one that Emily night time contributed to and it's a it's a modern mindfulness on the go app said, sir, teaches you how to meditate in different contexts like if you're at the jam or, if you're you know, on the tube one for working on the computer yeah I've read a couple for working on the computer. So it's really just about trying to bridge like what we're doing already in our lives, with a meditation practice in these ancient

tions that have come down. What do you? What is the app for working on the computer? What does that entail? Defies the app and then the couple and meditations that road? It's just simple things like bringing your attention to different kind of anchor points. For example, you know we all usually have some sort of touch screen mobile device, and so you know you can use your use it to bring your attention back as you swipe at you know, back and forth with your finger, such just something you know very simple to return to, so that you know, because business and the mind can start to just kind of settle so that you know you're more aware, and by being more aware, it makes a lot of difference when you say more, where you mean because a lot of people scattered there are all of yeah, he said yeah based on one minute and they were on. You know all kinds of different apps. You name, one is Facebook, the devil? No, sometimes it.

There's no meditation in Facebook, though correct not yet not what I think Facebook a it. It's a fascination with social interaction, right, that's what it is. It's this this thing where yeah. I read. This piece was talking about the origins of gossip and what would gossip is all about and why so many people are into celebrities and celebrity gossip, that Kim Kardashian stuff and that kind of thing and big thing being that our culture doesn't have the same sort of communities that it once had these tribal bonds that expanded from fifty two hundred and fifty people to cities of thirty million there they're very confusing for our biology, apparently absolutely, and so that's. Why will gravitate towards what seems to be really inane like this? This this pulled towards my god, she left him and he went up with her and uh. Goodness you see those magazine covers just want to grab them and people who have no,

part of your life at all. You shouldn't be caring about them even remotely, but for whatever reason, you're compelled to do it. A little bit of that with the Facebook thing right. I totally agree minute. I read a great art. Well, it said in some sense, Facebook brought that experience of living in a tribal village back Technology yeah all of Marshall, Mcluhan and his whole sir theory about every technology, bring something back from the past yeah the clone as My favorite all time quotes is the the human things are the sex organs for the machine world who yeah that's the greatest ever right. That is one of the all time. Greatest click Jbs Danes not only is the universe queerer than you suppose it's quicker than you can suppose. That's my number one favorite, but number two right up there. Because it is a it mean, Mcluhan's was right. What are we doing? We're making we're making computers and we keep

making better ones. We keep we're, essentially the evolutionary device that causes the things that we created to accelerate, far quicker and innovate. Far quicker than biology ever has a chance to and in the process where, all so it seemingly at least on the verge of creating some sort of an artificial biological life. Some, whether biological mean I don't know you call artificially, did cells that interact with each other. The same way human cells do but we're pretty God, damn close, whether it's a hundred years or two hundred years, pretty close to making artificial people, and where is that coming from it's coming from people, I mean we really I've if they are machines, biological machines and will be right and then a new life form will be birthed out of our greasy little hands, not ours. Obviously yeah, I think that's right. I I saw Elon Musk on twitter

days ago, said increasingly looks like to be the biological bootloaders for digital Super intelligence, yeah, most likely there's a bunch of people that don't believe that's happening. I read this interesting article on Kurz, while the guy was very critical, occurs while and He was uh. I think this guys, like sort of he's a curmudgeon, a bit he's it intelligent guy, but his criticism first, why was basically a biological criticism of that? understanding of the human mind is already it's fairly limited in terms of like how the human mind, processes, various hormones and neurotransmitters and proteins, and that are no way will be able to recreate that, because our ideas of human of the hue mind. The biological mind are still constantly evolving and changing and growing, and then we're not really ready yet to duplicate the human mind, but my

Take on that was that we don't have to duplicate the biolage. Functions of it to duplicate the actual functions of it is if they figure away two to make something that not only mimics the memory banks or the memory access of the human mind, but is much better than it. Does it in a completely different way and non biological way, and they can figure way to download intelligence or download consciousness or memories into that bank. Well, not going to really need this. The idea of cells and proteins- and that is those are the components of the biological machine, but if we can make a better version of that and do it like some sort of a synthetic version or some sort of an artificially create. Version, it doesn't seem to me that we're going to need to know everything about the human mind in order to recreate its process is right. That makes sense. I mean

Since I a a I feel like I'm, I'm not enough of a specialist on artificial turf intelligence to really know the difference. The problem is, I don't think anybody is, I mean, there's a bunch of people that are working really hard at it, but no one's ever done it. So if you haven't done it who's, the fuck. Are you an expert? I mean if, if there's no artificial human being, that is state of the art version, seven capable compassion understands action. Hopefully it will be well. It has to be right, otherwise, terminator style, that's right right, that's the so the question now, Sir, like the way we did nuclear power before we learn how to shut off nuclear power plants, like I hope, they don't do that with artificial intelligence like well. It's just this thing up and running and then we'll figure out a way to give it emotions yeah. No, I mean that's. What scares me a little with the ai stuff is that it's so much focused on the rational thought process and yet my experience of being human. Is that that's barely part of my human,

experience occasionally I'm rational. I have thoughts, but mostly I'm just like reacting to things and emotional, and I don't even know what's running most of my processes, yeah. That is an issue right yeah and I think it's also interesting to see just bring a little bit of the feminine perspective and it's like I'm very conscious of like you know, childbirth, and some of the you know natural things that are, on my mind, a lot and so thinking about merging the technology or creating some sort of artificial intelligence it. It seems to me that a lot of these conversations start to navigate really quickly towards getting out of the body, and so you know wonder if there is some sort of bridge between you know we're going to create something new and, at the same time, like you, were saying, like infusing, that with wisdom and compassion and some of these by logical processes, are we ever really going to get out of that? I don't know that it's just an undo,

Bing assumption a lot in these conversations that I think is interesting. Yeah it's fascinating, because the the general idea of the human body and the needs of the body, whether the needs for food of the need for the human touch or the need for You need to breed all these different things. Will be completely unnecessary if we're no longer biological an what what is causing war? What causing greed? What is cause Bing jealousy are these ancient monkey ideas that are stuck in our genetics. These mechanisms that have sort of forced us into the future they forced competition. They forced us to co, adapt just to learn to interact with each other and the along the way. We've sort of developed this method for managing the biology and meditate and being one of them meditation

and mindfulness, and trying to be centered in being the president has sort of emerged, because so many people like by my fucking heads all over the place and grow. This is hey. This is what I've learned. If you just do the yes and say this is where I am. This is what I'm doing all that other stuff is nonsense? I concentrate on this, and this I can get things done with. But if I live in, the past and worry about all the mistakes that I've made and I allow them to define them. Allow come to define me rather than be very limiting, and they can really ruin your perception so in a sense or flavor your perceptions in a very unsatisfactory or a very unwelcome way or your day, can be burdened by the past or you could be in like these. All these things are sort of designed to allow us to navigate the biological waters to figure out? What is the push pull of this machine.

Why is this machine jealous like what's going on, here? Why is this want me to be upset at someone elses success, while just want me to be upset that some is attracted to someone else other than me. Why does this want me to be upset at someone else's house or someone else's? Is family or whatever it is, that is tweaking you what's going on in here. Well, it's the machine wants competition, because the machine has gotten you to twenty fourteen a million years ago a monkey crawled out of a hole and figured out a way to draw an arrow that points towards where the food is the other monkeys that, oh, that way you could like? Oh, I see what you're doing and then those ideas, compiled and they piled on to other ideas and before you know it a million years later we have a civilization of complex civilization. That has all these different influences that have led us to this point, but a lot of them reply, a logical, a lot of the very motivations for doing most of what people do on a daily basis are very biological.

When those are eliminated, it becomes real questions like what's life. What exactly are we and if we reproduce through test tubes or whatever the hell is going to be? You know when become more, you know, 3d printers or whatever it's going to be when become biological, biological or artificial biology like what? What are we and what is life. Yeah those are really important questions, so I guess I guess one thing thought was interesting as I got into the transhumanist stuff, you know, while back was that they use this term. Mind uploading to kind of predict. You know, we'd be able to upload our consciousness into the cloud and stuff like that but I thought it was interesting that later I realized they never then use the term body downloading. So why is that you can upload your mind to the cloud. But you can't then download your consciousness back into different kinds of bodies, and I think

speaks a little bit to Emily. Saying that there's a lot a lot of the shadow of the geek culture is a disdain for physical body and a disdain for limitations, which I totally understand, because you know, I think, there's part of us that wants to transcend the limits of being human. You know, and it's the same thing that drives the Buddhist meditators to seek for enlightenment, It's to realize this thing, which is beyond in some sense, the limitations of the human experience? And yet you know real mature expression or realization in the buddhist tradition, is to realize that and then to return back into your incarnated physical form and to fully inhabit it. So uh hope that the transhumanists in the folks that are building these seeds of digital super tell a jance realize that even if were able to uh but our patterns into the cloud, we still, if,

if they're still beings, who have a sense of of themselves and and have some sort of physical substrate weather carbon or silicon that they're still going have to deal with certain issues of incarnation of being in a form of physical form of some sort. Even if it's a very loose digital in a very fast flickering, warm like it still there's still something there and there's still some sort of reference point, and I think that's where the Buddhist has something to say even about superintelligence and and what that experience I'd be like, because as long as there's a form as long as there's an identity. Right, like a reference point me, then there's going to be certain kinds of issues that we can't get rid of like. Then. I have to deal with you and to deal with these other use and then there's things objects outside of me and some of them I want, and some of them I don't want, and some of them are just going to ignore, and so, even if I were a superintelligent consciousness,

which I can't imagine, because my imagination so limited, I still think there will be some amount of fundamental faction. That's built into the experience of being are in individual. Who has a reference point and I think that's in some sense what the buddhist path is about. Seeing clearly is that, most if our existential suffering and despair comes from this fundamental appearance of being a separate being who exist on side of my body but isn't the I mean if you really stop to think about true enlightenment and being completely in completely in the moment, doesn't exists in the animal kingdom exclusively, I mean that's the only way they exist. They exist completely in the moment and a sense that the most biological of all creatures, and that that's a, but it has no existential issues. They. I don't have any angst in terms of their future, though

past they they live and exist completely in the moment. So isn't star awareness of the futility the of this existence? That's part of the problem, because, along the way we we're innovating, we're expanding, we're growing, we're doing all these, and things were going to bio hack in conferences and whatever the hell your doing, but at the end of the day you So when you die, you have a very short window here and it's like what. What do you see post to be doing. Are you supposed to be enjoying it are supposed to be leaving it better for the people that come after you and what's their poor purpose like? Why leave it better for them and what are they doing there, just leaving it better for the next? At the end of the day? What do we do with just enhancing this giant super organism known as the human race and for what purpose, because we're helping it pollute because we want more planes in the sky. We want better cell phones like what you know, the existential angst of being

of being conscious of being able to recognize? This is kind of like at the end of the day like this is just a weird little trip you're on you know, you're, on a birth to death trip, and what, if you become something, that's not human, if you become something is not burdened by biology, is not burdened by sexual, urges or or any of the the pettier of of turn human life that we all struggle with. What exactly are you here for what exactly is going on? and motivation might be the number one problem with artificial and it might not even be compassion, it might be that uh official intelligence it becomes so intelligent. So it's like what we're not doing shit. Ok, I'm not doing nothing will. Should I do anything like why would I expand? Why would I move on? Why would I make more of me while

they do anything. Why would explore galaxies? I don't even have ovaries, you know. I don't have a mind. I don't have a sense of futile sorry, I don't have a beginning and an end. I can make another one of me with a button like what am I do. Am I going to go see the top of you know the Grand Canyon, and for what, for? What purpose would have I'm going to get flying a plane and go to Paris? Why? What do I give a shit? I don't have any desire to learn like there's, no urge to improve and innovate. I'm now biological anymore, like what is created everything we have everything that we have every every building that we've ever made. Every work of art that we've ever created is essentially, this thing inside human beings that wants us to innovate and create this this. This thing that is, allowed us to radically reshape our environment that

is allowed us to design cities and pieces and pieces of art, pieces of architecture and all these different things that we created his all come from that same desire that desire to continually improve, but if, if the human body transcendent with some sort of artificial creation and we become far more enlightened, intelligent, the ultimate question b y. Well, I would say the ultimate question for me would be: who are we yeah? What are we? What is your? What because you know when that, when I'm listening to you talk about this and I'm like huh, there's apartment like no like? Let's not do that and then there's this other part of me. That's like yeah that desire to create and that desire to move forward in the evolutionary like impulse in us all is so strong and that's what makes us so beautiful, and so when,

I really touch into the mystery of it all in the beauty and the wonder and what you're talking about with the art? To me, it's like not such a question of trying to get out of this anymore. It's more like a question of how can we use these technologies and the things that we are learning through science and the natural laws of things? Because, honestly, if we start to violate much more of our natural laws, are oceans are going to rebel and, like our earth is going to become unstable and we're seeing some of that, so we do have to balance the biological component with the evolutionary impulse. An one thing that comes to my mind is a philosopher KEN Wilber talks about transcendent include a lot. So what, if you know, part of what we're doing is learning how to trans send some of our limitations human beings and, at the same time include some of those limitations that keeps us grounded. I think that's really important as well. Transcendent include yeah. I just wonder what would happen

if we eliminate all of our biological urges- and would things just completely stop, why would anybody create art if we don't want to impress other folks? Well, I think we have a choice. Maybe some some individuals would chew to eliminate those things. Maybe some would choose not to write yeah well, if there's like a huh, diversity and it's not just one thing that we become what, if it's like many things and people just kind of decide to go off reprogram their conscious in various ways. Well, I've always been fascinated by this idea of constant improvement and it's sort of what fuels. Modern corporations, this idea of constant growth, this it few rules human beings like. No one is happy with where they are. Are they want a bigger house? They want a better car, they want, you know if they an artist, they want to create their latest greatest masterpiece. They don't want to sit on their laurels. They want to consistently constantly improve. Where is the Iphone

six? I'm still waiting waiting, I'm waiting yeah. We have this consistent, constant need for improvement, and that is essentially designed into the evolutionary process itself. Like that's what lead single celled organisms to divide, become multi celled organisms to get out of the ocean to see clan, seek shelter, to seek improvements in altering its environment in order to protect itself from predators which led us to the 21st century, to where we are today, having this conversation that somehow I don't know you understand it, but I don't understand how my voice is being processed down into ones and zeros and pump through the sky and people are getting it on their phone right now. Is it driving in their car? This is madness. This is a mad mad mad world, and what is the the urge behind all of it. Well, it's this by a lot magical need for innovation, this biological need for constant improvement, and it's

it's designed in the evolutionary process itself. I mean it's. A part of the evolutionary process mean why why do animals evolved? Why don't they just say fuck it if these fish keep Sabonis? Let's just let's stay? The same color and go extinct, no bugs MER. They start like seen, caterpillars that, like look like predators that they have developed eyes on their backs so that they can scary so that less animals eat them, or at least they've got to that point where that design I mean, I don't know how you can ever really truly completely explain some of these butterflies that have these elaborate images that have have emerged throughout. I mean how many hundreds of thousands or millions of years of evolution, but it's it's incredibly fascinating that they've developed. This new need to figure out how to trick animals, so they can continue. You breathe even prove they've innovated and that's that if you could

talk to a butterfly and go listen to you live a week, why fucker do you care like if you die or your relatives die? What kind of bullshit life is this? You know live a week you fly around, people go, look at the butterfly and then it's over like let a bunch of your gpu, let's, let's just get this over with you know, come back is a better bug figure out how to exist as a microbe inside the body of the animals that are eating you and then develop from its poop into some magical plant that enlightens the people that eat it or something. But living is a butterfly is bullshit, but they don't think that way. There's just this part of this process. This continue to innovate. Constantly push forward, make things better. If we stop being biological, does everything just stop? Does everything just and you know what is the conversation, then? If you do, I have a motivation. If the you don't have an expiration date, if you don't have

peoples sexual choices to appeal to, if you don't have people's social choices to appeal to, if you don't want people to lie, q, if you don't have any desire biologically, what's the motivation whoa well, I mean. Obviously this is highly speculative in a way, but maybe I just throw in one piece sure kind of back down to the to the analog version of of intelligence, which is these human body sitting here. Having this conversation, if that's ok with you I'd, say, there's another piece: that's really important in what you're saying there's here is the drive to innovate into trance end, but then I think there's also a very powerful force that moves in the other direction and I would call it compassion or care or love, and it's that part of us that wants to include everything like Emily mentioned. Transcending

including you know, we can become better and better and better, but what good is it if everyone else is left behind? You know what good if we're in a living living the high life- and there are millions of people who are struggling to feed themselves, You know at some level when we get in touch with the reality of that there's part of us. If we're our hearts are open. You know that really resonates with the pain of that and wants to include and wants to respond to that stuff. Bring into that difficulty and I think that's part of the reason life exists as well. It's one of the primary reasons is not just to transcend, but it's also to care for and to respond to the knee of others, because we realized it's not just about us like it's, not just this experience it's important on. There are the all these others. You know that are also having an experience and they're. Not unlike me. You know there and that's why compassion can can exist, because I realize, like your experience, is not unlike my ex

variance, there's a way in which we have this common hardware, where this common sense sense of conscious. This I assume this common hopes and fears, desires, and so in that sense, and I think passion is a really powerful force that also holds life together and keeps it from flinging, apart into the into the ether But this cynical and objective amongst us would look at that and say: well, that's just a mechanism in order to keep society together to allow this consistent innovation, you need people, stay together in order to get people to work together in order to get the maximum amount of productivity out of the human mind and creativity. This is only one way they have to love each other if they don't lie. Each other they're not going to build shit they're going to go, live like TED Kaczynski and hide up in the woods in a little shack and try to stay away from each other as much as possible PA. The reason why we do so well is because we

compassion so it could certain would be considered an evolutionary device to ensure innovation and constant growth, and it has, I mean every society that has done well in a society that cherished its members. If you don't give a fuck about you members, you get to North Korea type situation where there's no innovation, the country stagnant everyone lives in fear. The lights are at night and that's uh worst case scenario for a modern culture and that that is based on most entirely on those same ideas that, like the lack of compassion for your fellow beings exhibited like and if you looked at the one thing or you ask That's the one thing that troubles you most about brutal dictatorship like North Korea, while the poor people that live there, the poor people that are soft,

they live there are compassion, is a part of what makes us it's a it's a it's a component, a critical component which makes a successful yeah, and I think you know you can look at it from in that perspective, but I think there's other ways to look at it, which is that compassion in and of itself is a good. You know that there's something inherent in the experience of compassion of the open heart, that's responding to suffering, which is in itself good, and that you know when you experience in touch into that space, which completely dissolve cynicism in in the moment of it there is. There is a feeling of this is this is right like this is right to respond to the difficulty of other beings on some fundamental level. We aren't separate from each other and some fundamental way, the level of the universe itself. You

everything arose out of this momentary, big bang right, that's our current story about it like okay, what the was that? Where did that? What what? What was that that it all came from this? Nothing, this infinitely smalls point in space actually in the big bang, isn't something that have in the past. It's something that is happening right now. It's something that the that which was prior to the versus still here, and that is also our nature and that nature is naturally compassionate. It naturally responds. It naturally includes everything, so I think there's something notice that also wants to reunite with our own deepest heart in our own deepest. But but does it really because in if that's the case, and how do you, how do you factor in predators? How do you factor in the the the kinds didn't competition in the wild that exists everywhere? Compassion really only exists when their safety is the only family exists. When would you know when you

worry about your own exist since constantly it's like this rap did sort of primal struggle when all that is put to rest and you build up walls and you have a fire and he can ho each other and everyone's together and find then there's the room and need for compassion, but with the eagle in the fish no compassion, I think you're speaking to our habitual patterns, that get ingrained in us as we grow up and with the buddhist training that I've been through. It really does teach us how to start to deconstruct. Some of that training I mean compassion, naturally arises in a moments notice without there being this strong sense of contraction around our small sense of self. You know when your child reaches for the stove you're going to try to jerk it back, but you don't want it to burn itself right. That's the level of compassion does naturally arising so well. That's that's also being a urinal

Interroll you're teaching this human being about things that it doesn't understand. Yet, I would think of- of compassion is someone you have no biological connection to at all and you see them in need of help and you help and there's something that inherently satisfying about that when you do help someone. That's very strange, like me, and my friend, we're driving were in North Carolina were driving down the road and we saw this car alright had like its hazards on, but they were like really really dim and those on the side of the road and as we pass the car. Maybe a couple one hundred yards later. We saw a guy in lying on his back. Oh shit, something happened, so we stopped the car we got out. We help the guy would called nine one one. We got the guy up yet severe asthma is car, ran out of gas and he had an asthmatic attack and fell, and- and we spent a bunch of time with this guy in the cops and and after was over. We had this like feel

and the guy was safe. The guy was, you know the government hospital in an ambulance. They took him to the hospital they. The whole thing was result, and we had this like elation this, like light feeling of happiness, that we did some thing- yeah, we retired and we just flown in- and we would rather just go to our hotel, but instead we spend an hour or so and we felt way better. You know it's like feeling of elevation you've helped your fellow being right, so it's naturally programmed in us, and so therefore we can continue to cultivate that, and so it's more of a consistent state. That's present that's what I've learned yeah, that's where the cynic would say that the whole reason for that is so that these human

can breed and make more humans and figure out a way to make a better electric car who figure out a way to make a wormhole. It also reminds me of science in the mirror, neurons too 'cause, we're learning that you know we're mirroring each other and what you're doing is affecting me and what I'm doing is affecting you and it's rewiring, our brains as we're talking. So so I mean in that sense, like we really are so connected that we don't even realize how connect we are. So, in a sense yeah, it is one of the most important things that connection is undeniable and it's it's fascinating. When you see people change the people that they hang around with yeah and they all the and improve or regress, and that's that consistent pattern with human beings. You find a really good group of friends or super healthy and like to do a lot of exciting fun things and their compassion to each other, and you start making not behavior, or at least mirroring that behavior or when you're and people that are just complete masses, so we don't have to be ruled by our biological

desires. So when you're saying, like greed and hatred and competition, and all that, then I mean- maybe that is where we are at a certain point in some of us- are and with evolutionary drive to continue to create an open, an really deepen into what some of the wisdom traditions have been talking about. Then you know it's possible to like. I don't know if all of ours wolves as we're as we're even talking here yeah, but my question remains like when remove all of these biological urges. What is the purpose of this thing? 'cause? It doesn't doesn't seem to me that there would be any reason to go on. If you run moved everything biologic, that's just yeah, that's just something I mean you can think like that. But what would be? The purpose I think it's hard to know. I mean this is my point of view is like it's hard to know, because we don't know what it would be like to be that to be whatever. That is mines going try to construct at all. So it's sort of like.

We can only imagine what it would be like not to be like we are, but it's hard to imagine what it would be like to be something that has yet not yet. So, maybe maybe we could have a follow up interview with all the ten super intelligence and we will be no need for process well, we can. We can get together in the the instantaneous mind, meld with yeah intelligence and refunds that that, to me seems more likely than any of those other scenarios uh. I wonder like but the next step is I've stopped many times. I've spent like entire days. Thinking about one thousand years from today to one thousand years from now like what is the difference in what What is the difference is going to be and how radical is it going to be? How radical is the shift, and I really have a feeling that it's going to have nothing to do with the body and all to do with the mind, and I think that

this idea of transcending the human body and I have a feeling they're- going to figure out some way that the human mind can access other states dimensions levels of conscious. That literally the the human body will be irrelevant? Well, it already can yeah? We we already can access all kinds of crazy that for some of the things that I've learned in meditation, you know it's or psychedelics open that yeah exactly right, but what's going on there. What is that? Do we know what is that is that? Are you opening up the floodgates for human neurotransmitters and the body's ability to process them get skewed and you then see with all sorts of you know do visual beliefs and cry visions, because your visual cortex can't process all these chemicals correctly? So you have this wild fantastic ride. Gives you the sense of euphoria this into being disillusioned with it huh, no, not at all, no just

completely offering the devil's advocate point yeah yeah! No. I appreciate that. I mean, I think, that point of view is coming at it from the biological physical perspective, but then there's also the perspective of consciousness itself. You know of the experiential aspect of it, which is, I think, also part of the challenge. Of our moment in time. I think is, is starting to recognize that both of these perspectives are valid. The perspective of consciousness of experience is also valid. So from the perspective of consciousness, you know it does altered. States of experience reveal something valid now, whether or not you know we can from that point, if you describe the biology of, I think it's clear,

we can't, and so it's useful to have a description of exits what's happening in the brain, these you know areas or D Afrin shading, and then these areas are lighting up and all that stuff, but that's not who we that's, not that all of who we are we're, not just brains right, because you know we're having thoughts about brains and the only way brains, existence through our through our internal representations of brains and and in terms of human consciousness. So I think you know that be the other perspective is like consciousness itself is also a valid perspective on this and, from that point of view, you those moments of altered. Experience of like compassion, like you described when you you realized, you helped the person in Asheville and were there for him. You know when your child's born or when you you take a hallucinogenic Medison with the intention of learning more about your, you know your deepest nature or something about yourself or going on a meditation retreat, an exploring experience moment by moment. I think this thing

reveal very important truths that are on the level of con dismiss itself, that you know you can't convince a skeptic or cynic that they're true. But you can give them the instructions and say: hey, run this program and see what happens and and and if you do it with a certain kind of intention, then you know it. It changes your life. It changes your perspective. It changes your sense of who you are you know, and what this is all about, and I appreciate that you're pointing out you know the one side of it, which is that you know yeah This is a limited trip like you know, we don't really know what the hell is happening here. We don't know how we got into this body, At least I don't remember how I got into this, but I don't know why I don't know why it's happening right. And and then like we're going to die at point, and we don't know when that's the other thing we we're going to die, but we don't know when we don't know how and we don't know how long for now and so,

but there is a certain kind of like in your face shock about that that I think we're constantly coping with human beings never constantly and compassion can be a way to cope with that. You know and love like there's a term that this tibetan master used, who came to the America in the 70s name, chuck him drunk, but he said there compassion and then there's idiot compassion, an idiot compassion when you are trying to respond to suffering, because you can't handle it because you don't you can't actually deal with it. Do you try to like make it go away or you try to oh poor, you poor you. You know that kind of compassion, so Compassion can just as easily be a way to cope with the. Shocking reality that we don't know. What's even going to happen next, let alone like what's going to happen in five thousand two hundred years from now, um

does that make sense. Sort of I always felt like compassion is just the way that we kept together, though we kept our our love for each other and bonds. That feeling other people's pain is the to ensure that we minimize that as much as possible that it's just sort of a part of the biological process, especially the biological, process of transcending the simple monkey mind and moving into some new state. The the ability to understand each other, communicate Express' information and also to be to conceptualize very bizarre ideas that human beings have kind based their entire society on we base society on bizarre things like laws, regular nations, money back with. You know, there's a weird concepts that we have had to factor in to our view of the world. The environment are

our interaction with that environment or effect on environment. How much which can we mitigate that? How much is just a necessary evil to maintain our wonderful existence with air conditioning and you know, high speed internet, I mean what what are those thoughts where those things going and how much of those are connected to again the same thing. This constant need to stay together, help each other innovate help each other move forward press forward and continue to grow. And is something like Buddhism or Transcendental, meditation or anything? Are these just sort of like is to get through this in a relatively sane way are these: essentially man created technologies, human created techno geez to mitigate the natural world? I in in a way they clearly are because humans sat under trees in India, two five hundred music over thousands of years ago, and it

lord their own minds and did come up with various programs for how to work with it variance isn't that fascinating that someone along I'm ago, was like looking around people hacking each other to death of swords, and it's, like you know, there's gotta be a way around some of this shit. You know like what's going on here going on. Why is everybody? Why is relaunching arrows over the top of those walls like what the fuck are we doing why, in India, what the hell is going on in India yeah? No, India's been the birthplace of a lot of developments in consciousness, not coincidentally worships cows, who not going Donnelly, make cow from double under animals that psilocybin mushrooms grow on completely, can did for sure. Without a doubt and Soma, you know the the ancient, vedic traditions and all these ancient Hindu texts that speak of the is psychedelic drugs. We don't even know what the hell they wore these important psychedelic gasp

to their culture that are completely lost no one knows what Soma is means. It's a huge part of their aim. Religious tradition and whatever it is like completely up for debate, some feel it's a comma Tory drug with you know the Emma to miscarry and Psilocybin and all sorts of different things, but no one knows just all guesswork, but that's got to be a part of it right Someone ate some mushrooms and said those cows are awesome. We need if we can keep those guys around, don't eat that cows eat this yeah. I don't either because the this from the couch. Yes, you know like what a trip starving people letting cows go because the cows make ship. Add mushrooms, grow on yeah. I I think it's crazy to that. People figured out how to pay it mention and and use the body in a way to produce some of those effects. Endogenous Lee know to be able to experience that, even without mushrooms

be able to get into this kind of states of consciousness and even to stabilize them. You know as a as a kind of baseline of exist welcome to win the masters, people that are really good at kundalini, the I have a friend who teaches it and he says he can reach these complete psychedelic states where he's interact, NG with beings that may or may not be there, that he can visually recognize in front of like he can see it as if he's tripping and I'm like how do you like? Where are you getting there six years and years and years of mindfulness in this very specific practice? Right concentration, you know, is the always tied to an every contemplative tradition. These sort of psychedelic or psychic experiences, like the ability to focus and to to be able to absorb consciousness in one thing, seems to be the gateway and to which you know all those other weird yeah can arise, but you're to not pay attention. Those experiences that that's like you're missing the point: if you're trying to seek out these hallucinations

traditions, a lot of district since do surveys suggest on not getting side tracked by them yeah, but they inform us and change the way that we can relate to things that they are important, yeah the end goal They they can definitely do a lot of good work. Yeah, and a lot of weird shit. Oh yeah, that is a you know in there's, like people like out there like casting weird stuff at each other, and you know I don't I've been it's about, so I don't know how much of it is like. You can just see you weird stuff happening and how much of it is there but ology, but all the same, like there's enough weird stories coming out of places of people that have been sitting in caves, for you know militant Millenia exploring consciousness. They were already uploading. I mean we've been, I guess uploading it to in some level. Well, there are

Work itself is representative of these experiences. If you look at to baton artwork is so trippy it's mind, blowing so psychedelic yeah yeah. We we did a meditation, a couple weekends ago and one of the guided meditations was to imagine a load flower in your heart that had a thousand pedals and each pedal with shooting off a beam of clear light that connected with another pedal in another being's heart and that sort of expert out infinitely, but it also went in both directions like in terms of the a in quantum level in the universe, is within atom and it went outward in all directions and I'm like okay, these these dudes were you know because they mostly were dudes. There will do this. These dudes were like exploring the furthest reaches of of the inner you. Cosmos. What do you mean by? They were mostly dudes that were able to do this. Well, I mean the cultures of Tibet, and most of these places

There were nuns and there were women doing the practices, but I don't think they had as much opportunity to do them because of the you know the organization of their cultures, but there's not a biological limitation. Achieving these experiences, no actually the Tibetan, say women easier time at these. This is imagine them, because testosterone is so controlling and limiting in, in that sense, like this so much ego bound to testosterone and and also the the mortality. Of testosterone like being the one that survives and good to all of this, is like inexorably sort of connected to the those sex hormone over the mail I would imagine that that would be more limiting and is a better meditator that I am I practiced twice as hard and experience half the results you guys ever go in a sensory deprivation tanks. I have not done that. I haven't done that. Yet how dare both of you

I know I know such a confusing thing to me because I've been such an advocate on the sensory deprivation tank and I talked to so many people that are in the meditation of my How do you not use the one tool that is essentially like designed for the best meditation possible? Well, retreats, you know we've. Both done a lot of months of intensive retreat and it's kind? sensory deprivation? I you don't talk, you don't you know eat what's in front of you, you you're sitting in silence was the time it like. It really does limit the sensory input right and you know I've been in states of consciousness where all sensory input sort of disappears. Awhile. So I feel like I've had that experience of how could you say that, though you haven't done it, you haven't done the actual tank itself. I don't know how it compares exactly, but I know what it's like to experience: a lack of sensory input Right Inter lease on a certain level and a certain level that you know there's no such

it's a visual sight, sound this actually probably deeper, because there's a sense of the body at all and the state's completely formless months prayer than what deeper than if your leg in a tank, and you still have an experience of the senses of your body like if you can still feel your body. Can you feel your body in a sensory deprivation tank? No, that's the whole point. Ok! So it's probably similar more intense this Why I've I've done both the sensory deprivation tank you're weightless? What to do it? floating in water. That's the same temperatures your skin, so you don't! He knows where the water ends in the year with your body completely ceases to send information to you, yeah and If you guys are already good at meditating, meditating in a tank would be like Turbocharged, probably write a hundred percent guaranteed the. I can't believe you haven't done what why don't you have a sponsor yet for for a I have one in my basement. I have a tank in my basement. Are you that sucker all the time you need new advertiser here, I

well. I could sort of help my friend crash, who owns the float lab in Venice, but I don't do it for financial compensation. I just do it because I want people to know about it, but I would I do I retweet people's tanks, all the time that I have no affiliation with whatsoever, just because I think it's in a it's a massively important tool that is somehow or another slipped through the fingers of our our consciousness, and I don't. I don't get how people having grabbed hold of that and ran with it. I read a study, one time that says a lot of people once they have some sort of opening. We could call it mystical experience for lack of a better word right now that a lot of people don't want to have them again after they've had it the first time something about the opening kind of freaks people out.

Those people are weak to just scare, but I'm just saying yeah I mean, and it can be scary for people, so it seems like the expansion of consciousness is something that is naturally in us as well, and so thinking about the technology where we started this conversation a little bit. It's like there is this impulse to explore and to like, expand and upload into different states and Realms of being with that fear of expansion- that's just that's just the ego. That's all that is us. Is your body trying to re claim like some sort of walls with let's put back countries on the soccer, so we can clearly defined it where you. When you have a psychedelic experience, one of the things that's the most talked about aspect of it is the boundary dissolving aspect of it that the boundary all dissolving? Like? I remember one of first times that I did a really potent psychedelic was

five Amiot Dm Dmt in the overwhelming message from it was that there's no op and there's no down and that you're just a part of the infinite, and that feeling is very like saying it like this is it sounds like just a bunch of noise coming out of your mouth. The sort of vaguely represents what this concept would be but experience, in the psychedelic state was so overwhelmingly. Educational and so it was so bad. Laundry defining, like whatever I thought of as a boundary in the past was now like. Oh, that was just this, and this is just that and what what you really are is one thing that is holding all these other things. That are all a part of this huge thing, and this you, each thing is you're in it. You're not separate, I'm not separate from you, you and I are these containers that are

inside of this there's air and there's always something there, there's not there's, no, nothing that doesn't exist. There's no! Nothing there's, no, nothing anywhere. Even nothing is something yeah notions and shinzen young one of our our favorite teachers. Emptiness is not a thing it's a pure doing, which is sort of another way of saying. I think what you're pointing to that things just happening as it is, and there's no innocence. There's no thing that goes beyond all of that. It's just this. You know it's just this happening, that's happening one. The universe also is like a soup. It's not like you, not throwing the ball through the air and some is catching it. It's not hitting anything. It's not vacuum like the whole thing is just it's filled with something: it's all connect, Like you and I aren't really separate from each other- we're just not touching skin but we're touching, something. That's touching us it's in that you know we're all feeling that boy that sounds hippie

who that, but, but it's also true yeah in some way. It's also true and that these these ideas, whether it's meditation or yoga or psychedelics, or these ideas, mindfulness, are in a lot of ways an attempt to escape this monkey realm to escape this biological realm that we find ourselves in to try to. If not but rather to manage it transform. Yes, I would say transform it to what, though I don't have a good answer, what that is kind of looping back around where we started this conversation to what write this. But this is not like building a house and you don't have plans like what are you doing? I'm just put in shingles on this thing and it's going to hopefully be something I think I think having. I think there we each have to answer question to work. I mean- and that's very personal thing that way. I think I mean

personal in one way, but it's also a collective in another way, because we, you know, we we influence each other and we get attracted to things that are connected with what's important to us. But you know to me to what you know I think what's beautiful is you know to move toward deeper sense of wisdom to to move toward being able to? live in harmony with that realization of interconnected body of deep of that, the kind of profound interconnectedness that you're describing you know that literally that there at some level isn't a separation between us. No, how does that then inform how I live? How does change. How I live. Do I sort of say: what's the fucking point and just give up or do I you know? Take that experience and begin to dismantle habits and and ideas and beliefs that are opposed to that experience and actually begin to live no more in harmony too, you know in the kind of language of contemplative training to

body that realization to make it your own. You know and to make your life an expression of that, an expression of that inter connected and compassion and deep care and love for other end, including you know, cutting through all the bullshit, including calling out delusion. You know, including being a pimp smacking the bullshit in which is, I think, a big part of you know what what I see you doing here, I would just say, leaving room for the what to change. You know: that's not like a fixed thing. They were gonna transform into this fix thing, we're going to continue to to change into a ball, and so that's beautiful to me. Yes, certainly beautiful from a biological standpoint, I mean I'm, I'm not a cynic in that I don't love life and I don't love him because I I enjoy this experience. Incredibly, I thank an amazing time. I think being a person is great. I love it. I love people love all the fun things you could do as a person, but what I'm trying to get to one

talk talking transhumanism and this escape the boundaries of biology there. A guy we talked about this podcast before they got bitten by shark, so australian cat lost his arm. In his leg- and they replaced it with this car fibre creation is moving around the standing there. No limp guy surround normal his hand that you know it's kind of crude, but It does move and it can pick things up and I'm like wow. This is quite fascinating, like they said to this guy: hey, I know you got your arm and leg bit off by shark, but lucky for you. This is two thousand fourteen. We have some credible innovation that we've created. That's a gonna. Allow you to have this leg that moves very much. Like a regular leg and you're, going to have a hand that can do a lot of things that a regular hand can do so. Better than not having that arm and leg, and yes and guess what it's going get bad Five years from now, we'll have a better arm in a better leg and you're going to enjoy this. Well. If,

as time goes on, the other parts of his body start failing, like you know what man there's a problem, because you have this artificial right leg. Your left knee is gone, so we're going to replace your left leg to with this artificial leg. So this way you'll have two artificial legs and there but they're going to work great great. Okay, listen to your heart is going, but good news have an artificial heart and we're going to take this and a hundred years from now. This guy is just a brain in this carbon fiber body and he's looking at his eyes he's looking through. These are We created eyes, they say: listen, everything works great, except the cells of your brain are reproducing irregularly and you're going to develop Parkinson's, but we, I figured out a way to download your consciousness into an artificial brain, so we'll just down your consciousness into this in the what's left of you, you don't there's nothing, there's no biology anymore and well, what's

there that when you sit there like really turn that switch on- and you are- you know two point now what what goes on there well from it for buddhist perspective. What's there is your? Is your karma? What's there is the pattern that was you leading up to that point? You know the information that made you up and that has continued to move into this new substrate. That pattern has a momentum to it. It has a history that has memories has beliefs, it has. It has various things: it doesn't it's not it complete discontinuity, the substrates change, but the you know the pattern has continued in some sense right, maybe, but how much of that pattern is based on biological need? How much of that pattern is based on this? Cultural

conditioning and the the the patterns of behavior that you've adopted along the way in your life and the environment, which grew up in how much of the goes away. When you have a brain, that's made of fibers that are constructed out of silicon and or whatever I guess it depends on how it yet struck. This reminds me of I don't know if you have the experience and some of my teachers talk about this as an example, a lot is you're looking in the mirror now and you you kind of get the prize that you age, but there's something in you that you don't feel as H. Do you ever have that experience? I do more work, just like you know you just as part of you that has an age and then, at the same time, if you look in the mirror, you can tell that you've age. Does that make sense

the piece of us right? That's like I don't know. I still feel like nothing's changed inside inside, but your vehicle, but my feet. But then I look in the mirror and I'm like. Oh my gosh yeah like I got, I got it. My time is taken, even though I'm young, you know, but I I I get that so there's this like paradox kind of a play. So when we're talking about like, if we do upload or what is it, that is still there like, I wonder if some of that would still be there, that feeling of nothing's changed and then there is this change that happens and we, chin well, if you stop aging, I mean, if it completely ends or it said temporary aging. We just got to go and get repainted. You know I mean if your car gets a patina from. No but rocks and chips on the road and stop. All you have to do is bring to the body shop and they sold cars. Look awesome. You know We can't do that with a human being, but if we can this this

others, companies that specialize in replacing every single part of an old car, treating you a new version of an old car that that is all Emily incredibly possible for a human being. I think that's possible. That's crazy! Though you know- and there is this part of us that wants to live forever. I mean the Holy GRAIL like some of these myths of the listed for a long time, so everybody wants to sleep, but nobody wants to die. It's quite fascinating. Everybody is more than happy to shut off for eight hours sleep to slowly here yeah. Here we go nothing I find bazaars like I find it bizarre now. Is I mean a lot of the fear of death seems to be connected to a fear of of the unknown of what would happen after death. I am I just going to disappear. You know, what's going to happen,

and not knowing that is part of, I think, of the terror, the feeling of not knowing what's going to happen. And what I find interesting is you know, and we were just talking to her. Whenever is in teachers who, who teaches here in Santa Monica, she pointed out, you know in every moment. We actually don't know what's coming next, you know that not knowing it is something constantly having to deal with the terror of not knowing or it? You know, as hers and teacher called it, the don't know, mind you know, and so I find it interesting to kind of reflect, on what it's like to rest in the not knowing to rest in that that sense of not knowing what's going to come next, because in that moment every next moment is both a death of this moment and the rebirth of something new there's something new coming online and there's something disappearing and in

since I think it would become comfortable and familiar with that process of moment by moment, birth and death. Then you know whatever happens whether my consciousness gets uploaded to the cloud or I die, there's some sense of their some part of me, which is fundamentally okay with that death process that constant dying. That was the thing I always thought was funky about. The the attempt to escape death has actually in order to escape death, we're going to have to go through so many deaths of who we think we are you know like you're, saying to transplant your consciousness into a silicon brain like some part of you, ice in them, so we're trying to escape death by running into it headlong well, also, what if is merely a transitionary face. What if you are you live in this existence? But when you die, you will enter into a new existence, and this is what many ancient religions of speculated on throughout

beginning of time I mean since the beginning of time everyone think there's some sort of I mean whether it's wishful thinking or whatever it is. It might be just like consciousness is a very bizarre thing to try to define, but it is certainly a real thing. You know if you tried to consciousness in a lab and say like what is it? What's, what is it that causes creativity? What is it that would define love in some sort of a chemical process? We're good luck with that. You good luck with trying to figure what that. What that warm feeling is. When you see your friend at the airport, it reminds me that time magazine cover that says that you couldn't. They couldn't find the God particle to remember that yeah yeah in the brain that came round it yeah. Well, what is it what what it? What is there's so many different aspects to what is life? What what defines this existence for the person experiences of themselves and does that transition to something else at the moment of death, and is

why the brain it produces all these endogenous, psychedelic chemicals give you when you take them, give you this: elated sense of being give me this the sense of relieving of anxiety in this sense of connection into everything and everything every one that exists like what? Why do those exist like? Why are those chemicals in the mind and why do those chemicals why they released at the moment of death while they release at the moment of extreme stress when your body is worried, it's going to die while was released during the dream state like what? What is that and would we be trapping what consciousness we have now in this part, so, creation, if you can download consciousness into some artificial creation, is that a hellish existence for that consciousness because it's no longer able to transition to the next phase of being, and would you be

the transition to the next range phase of being as a biological entity and then realize, like all my God, what did I do with my consciousness? I left it back there in the robot and who and who be conscious of yeah? If there is no cuts yeah will? What is it? What yeah? What is that thing. What is the life? What is the life that gets that transitions? The life expires, the the the light goes out and you pass over, but yet this robot way sup, it's you and it has no life span. You know it has. No, whatever no sexual urges no need for community. It's just this thing. It has all your families. I hope you do that. I hope you don't design. The future is what we have real problems. If we designed it to mimic and replicate biological life, we have real. MS there, I think this would have real problems. If we didn't tune a that's true as well, will the biological us would yeah we because we would?

You know, that's where the terminator comes as no need for us yeah, but well everything that we are as far as what the our society structured. As far as the our senses of fairness and love and compassion there, all based on biological urges needs. The need to for community is a strong urge to keep us all together. So we stay alive longer. We all things are a part of being a by logical entity and when we no longer are Why would we engineer all those biological urges and thoughts and concepts into this carbon fiber creation? I've heard the argument, and I I think this is interesting too, though, that you know the need for community goes back to the very earliest moments of the universe. You know in some sense you know. When Adams, when Adams emerged, they emerged in collectives. You know that they didn't just emerged as a single atom that they're all with

When a single thing emerges, it emerges also with a collective you that's in that sense. You know. The sense of community is hardwired. Maybe into the universe itself, but isn't also the sense of competition. Then, because all bio Article life is, is wild race of things eating for things, including vegetarians I mean the whole idea- is, is things grow and other things come along and eat them as they grow and there's no way around it. Life eats life, you know, and you can try to keep your biological footprint as small possible and do as little harm as possible, but every step you take is killing life every time you who's your mouth you're? Killing bacteria? I mean your you're when you wash yourself you're, killing living things, is a lot of weirdness to this this whole, if that is tied to survival tied to birth, death

and the prolonging of the species or the improvement of the species as it tries to prolong absolutely, I mean it's a paradox to me, but that's just part of what's cool about being alive. Is that it's not going to last and that's one of the big issues with the transhumanist movement, this idea of transcending the biological limitations and living forever. But then it's up it's like a movie, that's one hundred hours long. You know I don't want to see star wars for one hundred hours. I want star wars for two hours, because the of two hours? It's awesome like that. A great movie, yay walk outside in the sunlight. You talk about how great that moment was with your friends, everybody's happy. But star wars is goes on for infinity. It fucking sucks know if for

A hundred years later, still going to work speed and to bargain with Laurel it like get me out of here. This is terrible. This movie sucks yeah. You know why, because it's boring, I don't want to see you for a hundred hours. I wanna see for two is that life itself, the question I would ask is you know, is it true? There will be no limitations if we transcend our biological imitations or is it the case that they'll be new limitations that we can't fathom that become again and this? this ties in with the question. You know that we've asked ourselves, you know with with the buddhist practice like is in light in an state, or is it an ongoing ever unfolding process, you know- and I think if it, if it is unfolding ever evolving process, then that means there will always as long as there's stuff. There always be limitations, there always something that's not quite as perfect as it could be, or that you know is is not quite

and so in that sense I would guess that I mean this is. My guess is not that we were trained, limitations altogether, but that will transcend certain ones and then discover new ones and then the whole process of creative tension, begin again at some new. You know level it will be like oh shit like I, I really he don't appreciate the fact that I can't have two insist simultaneously that I've did there's just one experience, even if I can move between multiple rounds really rapidly. I still can only have this one moment and experience. You know, then, what hi? I'm that's just a guess. It may be one of the limitations. Well, that's fascinating when you bring that up, because that that does open up a different realm of possibilities. If we can transcend the limitations of biology and then includes experiencing multiple things simultaneously or the abyss experience, multiple lives like if we figure out a way to combine our consciousness or whatever we call our consciousness once we try and biological life and combine

in our minds so that we do experience the lives of multiple people, if not the entire human race. That's on this track experience it all simultaneously that this is beyond the realm of biological understanding. That's where we of from this thing and become something that's far more complex and complicated, In less and less one aspect of that decides, it doesn't want to be merged into the hole, and then you get warring factions warring factions warring factions are problems with much larger scale. Warring factions of transhumanism is trying to pull each other's batteries out and trying to hold each other into each other's version of utopia. Yeah right, that's another issue right like what, if there's like a MAC version and a windows version and a non compatible and everyone

to figure out which one is going to be, the Betamax in which one you know, Betamax was better but Vhs survived, and you gotta pick the right team. That's right! Yeah, there's, there's different yeah, because it's not like there's going to be only one company that comes up with a transhumanist solution right right. This is reminding me of like the fluidity of perspectives as I've trained in practice. It's like the mind it has. The capacity to take on me Super multiple perspectives and how important that actually is in the world today to be able to take different points of view and take multiple perspectives and and not have the right way or the way. So there's a lot of possibilities. Yeah. What you said also this fascinating is this idea that we can't even really. Imagine what the potentials are, because the potentials will cri

new potentials that were before that unrecognizable. We didn't, we didn't see them kind of like If you went back in time a few one hundred years ago and tried to explain to them, the internet they'd be like what the fuck are you talking about. If you went back before the printing press and tried to explain the internet trying to access Google on your phone with voice, commands or SIRI. You know SIRI Yeah try to explain that to people that live before printed type, things like what are you even yapping about they would net. To be able to wrap their head around it, much like we will never be able to wrap our head around the possibilities once we transend the biological limitations. The I've mind to me seems to be the most likely the hive mind, yeah the idea that we're going to somehow another experience in experience each other on some very, very broad scale, I'm very large scale and I think, we're kind of doing that with shit like Facebook and

Twitter and with in, reaction on the internet. I think what we're doing is dipping our toe in the ocean of connectivity. Oh yeah, I like that phrase yeah because I think but we are slowly but surely devolve, are dissolving these developing. Maybe that's true, biologically divall right but dissolving these limitations of communication were slow, really but surely expressing ourselves in ways and interacting in ways that didn't exist for an then when new things come along. Like are you aware of Oculus rift? I've got the dev kit two waiting for me in north care Duncan. Has it my friend Duncan? Has it and he just got back from experiencing porn Indiana virtual reality? First person porn, and he goes it is the craziest thing you've ever experienced in your life. Like you are this other person having sex with someone

look down at your body? You can look at your feet in your legs and, and you can experience like sex intercourse with somebody that you don't feel it obviously, but he's like this. Going to change the entire world we live in in the new version of it is insanely high definition right. You know he keeps, you gotta come over house and check out the fucking new rift man. It's it's mind blowing. He called me The day he saw it he's like he's like this bigger than the internet goes is bigger than anything. That's ever been invented by people. I've heard the same thing and I mean I think, I'm most excited about is creating contemplative training. Invite in in in the rift you know what would it be like to completely, you know, like you, said, immerse yourself in a visual field, you know with nothing outside of it and be able to so in some sense experience some of the same states that psychedelics bird bring on, but you know directly through a technological interface,

but my friends call it techno delix. You know that the sense that the technology could produce some of the states as well well that's what Mckenna's belief was sure about DMT is that he believed that if you could create a world that mimics exactly the psychedelic experience of dimethyltryptamine, that he believed that in that state those same beings that you interface with when you take the psychedelic drugs would show up. He had this like field of dreams, type scenario. If you build it, they will come and that that would be the best case scenario. For psychedelic intervention, it wasn't getting a bunch of people take drugs. It's like poo Virtually this virtual. That one day the state will into the virtual reality will achieve the the the the type of possibilities to achieve something like the

yeah and then and then the question becomes, you know- and I think Mckenna said this- you know what what world do we build? You know what what virtual re, these. Do we build and what values do we build into the program into them? You know 'cause. I don't think that ish he's going to go away. We now have to ask those questions and and decide what we're building. Well again, that's the big move with the real my fuck it's it's not even essentially that uh, you know we're going to have a different biological body, but we might live in reality that is indistinguishable from this reality that we can pick up and put on a scale the concept of virtual exist. Of some sort of existence in a simulation as it were, You know the simulation is a weird word, because simulation implies that it's not real, but if it has all the consequences and all the feeling and textures and all the the interactions and interfaces that your regular life does as far as tactile. As far

is heat sensitivity, all the different aspects of our life, we could recreate those exactly. What is that, if it's not life, I don't if it is an experience and your taking in every single aspect of that experience exactly the same way you would take in this life. What is it an if that's, case. How do we know we're? Not all the already in it? How do we know this isn't an indistinguishable, artificial reality that we have created and we're just opt into this? The soccer I mean that's my presumption that here in artificial reality? I mean, I presume this is a virtual reality simulation. Why is that. Because it because stuff is happening- and I don't know, what's happening, what do you mean by that? I mean I guess we are watching Nick Bostrom,

last night kind of layout the argument for this. You know the virtual reality simulation hypothesis and he was basically saying you know. One possibility is in we're in a virtual reality, an ancestral simulation and then the other ability is that no technology note no civilizations, get to the point technologically, where they can produce this kind of technology. They all vanished, that's one possibility and then the third possibility was I'll see. If I can remember, I don't understand that possibility. So so basically saying this is a real universe, because no civilizations get so could be no civilization, which gets to the point where it develops that capacity that virtual reality technology How is that? Even an option, no civilization does it make could say. No civilization has. Or no civilization has there are so because he's assuming that, if, if someone does do it, this is getting kind of analytically Deepa. Damn show right. Yeah, that's true, but

thank you saying like if, if, if, if a hyper intelligent species and create a virtual reality, they will create many of them right, and so it's probably probability wise. It's much more likely that we're in a simulation. Because of how many that could be created, you could simulate infinite number. The universe is through a like a hyper next generation computer. So that was his argument for why we're probably in a simulation, I would never say. Probably I I would agree in the sense that it's quite possible that if it is possible to one day achieve the sort of technical magical ability to create thing that's indistinguishable from this reality if it is possible- and I assume that it's going to be possible. If you hear about things like this new Oculus rift and compare it to the quill, they used to have to dip into ink to write things down. That was the only way to distribute information yeah, it's possible that one day we're going to achieve that, but the

the thing that you have to take into consideration. It's almost universally accepted that at least If this world is real- and if this life that we are living is not a simulation. It's universally accepted that this is the pinnacle of human information that we are at the we're at the apex right now and that we are at the very more information today. We have more knowledge we. Have more of an understanding of our universe than any human beings before us ever have ever? So? If that's the case, Why? Wouldn't we assume that we just haven't reached it? Yet that seems to be far more likely than the. Disability that no civilization ever achieves it, that's, why it's not there yet! Well, then we just it reached it. Yet yeah that seems way more likely. I don't understand why anybody would reach a a contrary conclusion, if all the evidence, whether it's cultural, like what. Sing old television shows and comparing them to the sophistication of today's weather,

musical, comparing old you know, old Beethoven, music and all old music from the 50s, like buddy, Holly type shit and comparing it to what people are doing today, whether it's technology, control, which is super easy and clear to grasp and understand its There is no doubt whatsoever that were at the apex that, as far as but we can observe that things are. We have more ability were more competent, were more more more able to alter our environment, communicate, etc. Far more far more complex than ever has been at any other time in human history. That's been recorded that that we can access. So that's the case. Why don't we just assume that were on this path? To that? Why would we assume that no civilization has ever achieved it or can ever achieve it? That doesn't? I I don't assume that myself, but I mean I think I want one thing: I'd throw in the ring. Is you know that way of looking at our

Street is sort of like a linear model right, like we've kind of we've, got this about? You know the universe started this many billion years ago. The big bang and then it sort of coalesced into whatever it coalesced into and eventually you know the merge a billion years ago and evolved to be what it is now and we're at this sort of at the sort of linear progression of evolution unfold. But that story is only like two hundred years old, so Why would we assume that that story is accurate or that that way of looking at it, I mean it seems more likely that in one hundred years, while the completely different conception of what the universe is an and I wonder if part of that conception of part of it will breakdown and I'll tie this back into the contemplative tradition, because this is something that breaks down in contemplative prayer? This is the sense that time is. This in the way we think it exists, it exists in a linear kind of motion. Time

for the for the Zen in the Zen tradition with Dogan is Hola Chronic, like the holographic Universe seen all these things are contained within themselves in this sort of a lot of these. Descriptions of consciousness. You know all all times exist simultaneously and can be accessed simultaneously. You know, can be ax here there and- and so in that sense you know the as the truck does the two traditional tech say, the who does of past present and future all exist right now, including ourselves, and I know that would be a very different way experiencing time. I experience it be a maybe a like occasions, experience of that way, but for the most part that is not the way. I I I I tend to think this. The linear thing. That's like this got to start will have an end. Well, the number one mindfuck of all time is infinity and being be thing that not only is like, I think,

especially when your children in a like you know the kids will say something like you know I win times infinity. You know what what insanity the the the the big mine for of infinity. Is that not only is the concept of infinity possible to grasp, but the parameters of that concept or so strange that, if infant, he is real, If the universe is infinite. The way it's been described is that every thing that has ever happened on this earth in the exact order has happened on other earths and infinite number of times, including every single time line so right now. The 1950s are going on an infinite number of times in the exact same order the 1950s went on in America. The nineteen fifty on earth. The 1950s are going on in an infinite number of times in the universe, as are the 1960s as our new

one thousand eight hundred and sixty one December 21st as our December 22nd. All those days are happening in the exact same order with the exact same events exact same words and every possible variation in between soda different words different events. Different forms of expression, different languages arise, different Conca bears win those thing. These are all happening simultaneously throughout the universe, so everything is happening all at once. So infinity is correct, like what their concept of time being constant in happening all at once. It is it. This is happening all at once is just the container it in is infinite. It's. It is a fish pickle manifestation of this concept and ok in question to brief off that that I'd ask is, is consciousness, something that's happening,

this biological being in this one very and of the universe, or is consciousness, something that move moves through this infinite potentiality and experiences it that's the mindfuck. If do you wake up and you're in other you somewhere else in the multiverse, and you know your decisions and choices. Allow you to travel from one Patel to the next, but where wherever you left off, where you ever it? Maybe you are a smoker or a drink, in the past, or you had some sort of bad habits and you escape those bad habits, but not every time line, and then it I'm time nine. This deadline. Well, maybe not yet will after this conversation you know I mean I mean like the idea being that we're. We believe that we're limited to this. This is very same physical space in the universe, because they,

this is where we are every day. But what if we transfer our consciousness from this one to the next one and they're indistinguishable from from each other physically to us, but not their potential is very different and that in this since you are demention traveling and that's why we sleep so we could travel. That's why people say sleep on it, sleep on your problems, man made, go away in the morning and you're just going to transfer to another stage of you somewhere else in the universe, or maybe this is more hippie bullshit, damn it. I hate it excuse myself, rightly so, of hippie bullshit. But if even if infinity is correct and

not only do they believe that the universe is infinite, but they believe there are infinite number of universes, which is the ultimate ultimate mindfuck, the fractal nature of reality itself. Being that every single galaxy, which contains hundreds of billions of stars, has a supermassive black hole and center of it, which is exactly one slash two of one percent of the mass of the entire galaxy, and if you pass through the that, you will enter into another universe of hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with a black hole in the center. That has a portal to another universe, and then the whole thing just keeps going on So there all the whole every universe is infinite and inside every universe is an infinite number of universes, and that's how big it is. That's why every time line that has ever existed every pot. Ability is all happening simultaneously, all throughout the whole thing, so those Tibetans thought they sat in a cave and just explored their own minds. There tripping balls, they're, probably taking something where they

they were trained. Then they rinse intrusion, shooting on the Dutch in history yeah, that's the thing! The endogenous drugs, like your trip in even if you're, not trip and like you you have to everybody, does, is no way around it. You skew tripping, we sleep. An item should be doing, last night, yeah early yeah. Those are trips yeah. Absolutely there was a trip. This is a trip. Yes, I would definitely chip in right now. Well, I think a lot of people listen their trip into this people right now on a subway going well, will there everything is happening everywhere, all the time like the car have any like no, no, no. This is this is a unique moment. This unique not not not really drop the concept of infinity, then everything is happening right now. Yeah well for you, but everything is happening right now, but the concept of infant is undeniable mathematically. That's the problem. Is that, like you, can't just ignore, like all you have to do, is go outside and look up he's you go out.

Look up at night, you see stars realize those are just an impossible distance and those are the neighbors. Those are the ones that are really close and if He stood on one of those stars and looked out into the distance. You would see stars that were equally far away. That seemed equally ridiculous to try to reach, and if you got to those there's no end, you just you're going to keep going and going and going so all the evidence of infinity, at least of the concept of great great distance being outside of the realm of understanding. Is all it's right in front of us yeah every night in a moment, yeah at the at the same time, at the there's a way of experiencing infinity that isn't about distance. It's about consciousness and in any being, you know this conscious experience we're having right now the room that we're seeing the sounds. They were hearing the body so stations that were having all of these

also arising in our experience right in our awareness and the idea of infinite distances, thought that arises in my awareness and so in some sense there's only this awareness there's only this experience that we've ever had and in that sense. You know the idea, the concept of of infinity as a distance is a great distance drops away, and there is just this there's just this one moment that's happening. I think that's what you, pointing to and there's an infinite quality to it. In terms of that that the consciousness itself is infinitely present infinitely here I don't know how to describe it. Actually, the consciousness is infinitely present throughout the whole thing it it's undeniably the fact that we are conscious you know, just like you said, the infinity is undeniable. Con

this is undeniable. You know this is happy. You can do it, though, because there's levels of consciousness right, there's people they are conscious that are just there apes there's one through this life drinking and walking in the walls like they conscious as well, and is that consciousness like a very limited consciousness, and consciousness expands. What's the what's the ongoing theme talking about meditation and meditative practices in the lighten meant achieving these psychedelic states through consciousness, adjustment or consciousness, manipulation like there's levels and layers to the whole thing yeah there there are levels and layers, and there is the unified field of consciousness, which no matter what is arising in it and how simple or complex it is it's just what it is, though, why is really strange to me that the concept of say

pull biology as opposed like complex by logical life that understand itself simple biology of visual cells, or you know, than multi celled organisms and then the concept of a being that's aware of itself and can communicate over vast distances like human beings, extrapolate that one thousand years, plus whatever it is from now, do we have the ability to do the same thing with consciousness throughout the entire universe itself, like is uh our ability to communicate over vast distances and to communicate with each other? Is this just a beginning stage and is never ending process of dissolving boundaries where they actual boundaries of space itself no longer exist, and we can interface with intelligent life that is figured out the same sort of shit

everywhere else in the world, the like universe, wide web or so yeah exactly yeah. If the universe is infinite and most science I agree it is, are they believe it is many? Do I mean it's so those things while you have the observable universe right, which is like fourteen billion light years, or something like that, and then we talked about with the Big bang like it all came out of what like Mckenna had the best take on the big bang he's like so science is essentially saying. Allow us this one miracle in will explain everything and that's really what it is. The whole little universe came from something smaller than the head of a pin. How uhm? Let me get back to you on that, but it did and because of that, all this stuff here. What is that a miracle uh, as I wouldn't know, use that word? You know we click. Yes, yes, it is that's a fucking

miracle man. If we come back from the dead after three days that ain't shit, the you know, first came out of the head of a pin, you don't think that's more impressive than a dude coming back from the dead, the guy coming back. Dead. Clearly, a miracle. Can we agree on that walking on water? Clearly, a miracle right water into wine. The motherfucker made a miracle right The universe itself is a miracle Allah for stories about. It are miracles, yes, and whether or not those are just Fabre the same way. The ancient Hawaiians the Polynesians talked about the gods stitch in the stars together with thread. You know, maybe that's what our concept of the big bang is just our antiquated notion or are rather primitive notion of something that's really beyond our capacity to understand. Yeah. That's the that's the mind, fuck yeah, it's our myth. It's our uh this that's our Zeus. That's are you know, that's our Odin is like the big bang.

And one day they laugh at us. These fucking die. They thought that the universe is smaller than the head of a pin and that whatever whatever reason man it just blew up and became the universe. Yeah one day soon, probably yeah Maybe right, maybe or at least in terms of reference. It would be similar to Galileo to us yeah. You know Galileo thinking that universe was not centered around the earth and everybody going watt fucking crazy. This is like a big form point of contention, and now it's you know personally agree that Galileo was correct and everybody else is being silly. Ok very well covered day when someone proposes something far more radical than the big bang. That proved to be true and everybody and everybody else is like wait. Wait wait What were you saying hold on hold on hold on

like? Have you ever seen that there's an an audio of think? His name is Gates and William Gates, the guy who had the concept of similar? He is a simulation theory that he presented to Neil Degrasse Tyson yeah. That was the president's scientific advisor Obamas advisor for awhile. Was he really William Gates, yeah no kidding if it's the same guys, the same guy that found the computer code in straight sort of like a Samuel? L, Jackson, look alike? Yes, that's him! That's him and the person that he has with Neil Degrasse Tyson where he says they round self correcting computer code at the in the heart of string, theory, yeah and then Neil Degrasse Tyson goes way way way. Ok, ok! Ok. I want to hear this again like say this one more time you found self can correcting code, I'm I'm not sure. If I understand what you're saying pull the video, because that's.

We watch this for the first time last night? Oh really, this is one of my favourites I got taken down. I gotta find out. That link got taken down is on Reddit God, Damn commies who's doing that take. Why would you take decked out just self correcting computer code, correcting good code string, theory gates, let's say yeah? That's it strange computer code to discovered concealed. If you just go to that, I found it Just do what I just did: ok strange computer code discovered concealed in superstring equations,

there's a little bit a non since the beginning, for the first thirty seconds, like weird downtown tunnel here, put images that are behind your head right now. These are pictures of equations. I've been for the last fifteen years trying to answer to the kinds of questions that my colleagues, if it had been freezing, and what I've come to understand is that there are these incredible pictures that contains all the information of a set of equations that are related to string theory, and it's even more bizarre than that, because we need then try to understand these pictures. You find out that buried in them or computer codes, just like the type that you find in the browser when you go surf the web, and so I'm left with the puzzle of trying to figure out whether I live in the matrix or not you're blowing my mind at this moment. So you're saying, are you saying your attempt to understand the fundamental operations of nature lead

due to a set of equations that are indistinguishable from the equations that DR search engines in browsers on our computers? That is correct. So the way I'm still what I have to just be silent for so you're saying, as you dig deeper, you find computer code writ in the fabric of the cosmos into the equations that we want to use to describe the cosmos. Yes, computer code, computer code, strings of bits of ones and zeros. It's not just sort of resembles computer code, you're saying it is computer code. It's not even just is computer code, it's a special kind of computer code that was invented by a scientist name Claude, Shannon in the 1940s. That's what we find very very deeply inside the equations that up current string theory and in general

systems that we host. They are super symmetric, ok time to go home. I think we're going to so. Are you saying we're all just there's some entity that programmed the universe and we're just expressions of their code? Well, I didn't say that the matrix do something, but you said some of those codes are showing on the screen behind you right now. They don't look like codes, but these pictures, which we call Adinkra's or a graphical representations of sets of equations that are based on codes. So this is in fact to answer your question more directly. I have, in my life, come to a very strange place, because I never expected that,

movie. The matrix might be an accurate representation of the place in which I live. There give you an argument that we don't live in the making very good. Please quick, very simple argument is a property that the real world right down here. Has that no mathematical equation has no solution of an equation. Has the note that no abstract checked has here in the real world. It is always some moment which is one of the theories of passing moments in a mathematical equation. Doesn't have a flow of time in it. It just is this means that leak? Well, when I need him listening to me that the the the the ancient metaphysical fantasy that we call our guest mathematics cannot be true, because in a world that was the gas mathematics, it would be no

moments of time, wise in their math as a function of time, so we solve differential equations, but then you lay the solution out, you're mistaking you keep using. The word is- and I'm talking about the word describe you the whole drive is fine, but then let me let me finish please, since we started with my discussion. The point is that you know it's fun to talk about some deep metaphysical essence that sits behind physics before some of us, it's about trying to find the most accurate way to describe where we live. So my statement is that, in the description of our universe, that it's a super symmetrical universe which we're going to test in the LHC. If you believe that description, I can show you the presence of these codes. That's my statement, I'm fucked!

I can't I can't go on showed over. What do you say that you listen to what these guys have just described and talked about I disagree with the one guy saying that, because we live in this moment- and this is like this linear pattern to things that it can be a map- medical equation- that's not true! that? Doesn't make any sense that like saying if there is a car in the car, is driving on a road that has been created by people. If it's you know, it's going one distance, if it's traveling, that it can't possibly be an artificially created environment that doesn't make any sense to me. It's like you're traveling. Through this thing, because you're experiencing the now and it's progressive- and you know the past and you're, looking forward to the future and you

being in your in this month. That doesn't mean it's not a mathematic representation. What comes to mind is that a lot of times in our formulas are mathematic equations and I'm not a mathematician. It's at the mine tendency is to lock down on the variables, but then it locks it down, so it it's constantly changing. We mean by that, meaning that we had there's a tendency of mine to like to go into concepts as if they were solid and as if they were fixed in any kind of time that we do that we lock down the possibility. So if we can relax and to what ever it's red

resenting than that representation can continue to be fluid. So therefore, there's a lot of space and a lot of room to continue and the present moment is not just one thing. I just don't understand the argument that, if, if mathematics our- if, if it's, I guess, he's trying to say in a sense that because we're we experience individual moments, we have this moment we're in this moment, and that is progressive, that this wouldn't be the case if it was a mathematical equation that doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe I'm just dumb, but it seems to me that that leaves out the possibilities of yes. You could do that, our yes, you could. It could be a math Michael equation that you are experiencing, or it could be that this idea of this computer code that they're finding is just simply a lot

so many other codes that we found and things the that indicate that nature has some sort of a pattern to it. Like the feminazi sequence, like you know the idea that these moods that exist in nature there. They don't exist, because this is artificial, but they exist because nature essentially runs on mathematics. So is nature, artificial, visit it. I don't think anything is artificial. Well, you know it's everything is yeah well, everything is natural, this is like everything on earth, including like artificial chemicals. We are produced from things that are naturally occurring on earth and human, be Things are a natural creation of the earth or by logical life itself in all the bike, six of human beings, including things that we consider to not be natural r natural, just like a beehive, is a natural creation of

She you know. Nuclear waste is the natural creation of the inquisitive human being. It's they're, not nap but they are natural. Is everything is natural? They don't exist. Outside of our manipulation, but we are part of nature. So essentially, all of our creations are in fact natural. I I make this our so often to try to undercut the notion that using technology to develop your ability to contemplate the universe and consciousness that that somehow is unnatural. Is that all the time? But I'm thinking you know you, could you could say the same thing like everything is artificial? Everything is generated from something else. You know the big bang. You know that came from of the mathematical formulas in the starting conditions, came from some non physical place outside of this universe, and so therefore, there artificial from perspective, but I think that's the same saying the same thing as everything is natural.

Everything is artificial and everything is natural. Yeah right everything is natural. I think we, this idea of natural and artificial, that we describe with our foods. You know we describe it with the things that are healthy and unhealthy about what we've created in our culture, but it's when you using those same terms to describe human creation and then start understanding the nature of human innovation and creativity in the first place. Like boy I don't know, that's natural or not. How could it be any less natural than an octopus changing its shape to hide, or changing its skin tone to blend in with the environment is not natural sin, Official look: the Octopus is created nor to camouflage itself from predators or prey. What do you think people

are really pointing to, and they say, something's unnatural, like what do you think they're really getting at a really trying to say it's bad? It's bad yeah we're going to go back in time, Go back to chopping, wood engine and it's bad according to what like according, what set of values or what conception of what the is good in the universe. Right, I think we're constantly instantiating are utopias through. You know what we, how we live in, what we do and the we're constantly. Deluding ourselves into thinking? Our conception of the universe is the correct conception and then at, but but until like, we can't help it like. I cannot help but say you know. I think this the most important thing, compassion, wisdom, you know like I've, got my own conception of what's support, but is there a the most important

is the word most important, the problem with the definition of most important problem, because what is most, important to you is not most important to others right like it's, a very personal idea, what's most important, what's most important starving people right now is getting them food and water right, what's most important to the president, is figuring out what to do both Israel and Gaza. What's most important, you know he's like what is most It is a very personal thing yeah and yet there seem to be patterns. You know, like people, have certain values and and share those values with others and there's a collective code that seems to be running as I'll yeah and again boils back to what. What is that collective code? What's the purpose of it all to facilitate society civilization and to move forward with the progression of innovation to

become robots, to figure out a way to get out of here. And the trend is obviously there right. The symbiotic connection that we have to you know you don't want to leave your phone behind. You want to keep keep that sucker on you. If you leave behind you feel, like you left a part of you back. There yeah. I got. I left my hand, you know I gotta go back and get my hand means similar, yeah yeah Maya outer outer cortex yeah. There's there's something weird to that: yeah, the sims. Something we're to are our desire that this Marshall Mcluhan's idea, but where the sex objects of the machine world, that what we're doing is we're giving birth like a caterpillar becoming a fly were unaware of our actions. Really all

we being a part of this transition from the monkey body into this new transcendent thing? But then, then the big question is: what is that and what's the purpose of that and if we do become, that does just sit? Does it at point moving now, I'm just going to sit here. What's the point in innovating does no need. What's the point in creating new ones to what do more of nothing fuck? It to sit there so there, so we show up on some planet someday and there's like super complex, artificial beings that were created by by let's beings, and then they just stopped and they all just sat around waiting for the next stage of existence and it never came in buddhist cosmology. Actually, it's described that way that really yeah, actually the there six realms in the Buddhist cosmology and one of the realms is the God realm and the God realm the gods, literally just abide in this formless awareness for like eons

dancing eons, but at some point the story goes something changes and they die. They do have. They also are born and die. Those forms Rome's aren't, aren't minute, and so that at some point they they come out of it and they die, then they get reported to some other realm. Well, if you stop and think about the birth and death of stars and planets of these artificial beings live planets. They have a life time I've span, whether they like it or not, yeah, because the very source system they exist and is dependent upon that star burning a finite amount of fuel right, whether it's five, hundred billion years or whatever the hell, your stars got its tank when the suckers out it's gonna, Super Nova and that's a wrap son, there's, no more artificial intelligence on that rock that spinning around in space and the call

sin is: does the artificial intelligence that exists recognize that and feel the need to protect itself from this finite existence by building a space, ship and traveling physically traveling from dimension to dimension, or traveling within the dimension of consciousness and looking for a resolution there, but doesn't have consciousness once it becomes artificial. What is kind is consciousness purely something the universe is created, and we can't recreate how I doubt that really yeah we'll be able to recreate consciousness? I think if we come in- and this is just to kind of gas, but I think if we create a suitable substrate for consciousness, consciousness will appear and that's based on my assumption that in a consciousness appears where.

Where there something happening there, some sense of it of a hacker into something. Well, it depends on what we're calling consciousness yeah. I yeah level way like just raising awareness. They just kind of deal where it is, like being in this room of of of sight of sound, so animation and even insects of consciousness, nonsense and Alford wait. North said you know he he sort of prison and that even atoms have a most fundamental sense of consciousness that he called pre Henschen. I don't know this is kind of like a pantheistic perspective, but I I everything is imbued at the most fundamental level with consciousness, but that's that's probably because I've been spent. My explain conscious you when you say everything: do you mean like physical objects as well like a desk like this is to ask of consciousness yeah look at the most basic level, some former, but the non measurable, so completely just

copyright medical consciousness is nice yeah consciousness, isn't by definition immeasurable you, you can't measure justice, because it's not a quantity right. Why would you assume that in objects possess it, then it's it's sort of just comes from s comes from the deepest states of meditation that I've experienced this kind of sense of knowing that everything is at the fund, most fundamental level consciousness itself and said that there is thing outside of consciousness. You know, Adams could exist outside of consciousness, is just it's just a felt sense. I guess it's hard to just DR, like I don't have like a really solid argument for it, and even if something appears solid and it's a very male, you know microscopic level. We can see things moving around like, even though at this table feel solid, it's

completely solid right, of course, yeah every atom is mostly air right and the base rather yeah. So, in a sense like you know, I've had experiences to where the concentration becomes so strong that things to start to break down and everything seems to be dissolving and weakened acting in solving in reconstructing Weber. This, in just just the perceptions of your own mind is in this is just the the your your mind. Has this ability to perceive it its surroundings and its environment and in meditation you're altering the pram you're changing the influences, your you're changing the physical state, the flow all of the neurotransmitters and all these different things are changing. How you view the environments but you're not really changing the environment at all it. I guess it depends on how you look at it 'cause. No, I mean I'm not changing it and then yes, I am changing it

doing this particular practices you changing it in that you change your perceptions, match up perceptions, change the way you interface with the yeah. I think this goes back to the paradox of like it. It is very paradoxical. Yeah, like the paradox of you know, do we can we scribe this from the outside objectively and, like that's the most to perspective, or do we describe it as as the subject of conscious experience of it in in which more which is more true and I keep going back to like you can't reduce one to the other conflate one to the other entire? Otherwise, you basically you're just sort of propping up a particular perspective as the ultimate truth I don't know, I think I there's something completely disenchanted about seeing everything as physical objects, and- and this is a kind of just like- hallucination to make us feel better? So we can continue to propagate. I think there's something fun only wrong about that on the level of being a conscious being

yeah, I also see you know the tendency for people to conflate to their own experiences with the external universe as being like highly problematic. Two, that's a funny word disenchanted. It's a funny way of, because it is, you know, it is kind of the way your perception of it. Is that it's almost like this, the view of it. This is beautiful fairy view of it x, it more exciting and so like to think of them as to think of it more still terms or more. You know more what the word I would use just more clearly defined terms. It's like not as fun does that make sense. Does.

It's also, I think, like Emily was saying like the moment. We solidify reality, then, like we lose the background. You know we lose the sense that we don't act the completely now the every story we've ever told you know, as a species has ended up being wrong at some level. You know it's not it's not actually did like the big bang. You know At some point. We're going to realize that story was the best story. We could come up with to describe the evolution of the physical universe or the development of it or whatever, but some point we're discover something that just blows our minds again and then got to come the new story that can make sense of that. And we're going to get solidified about that. We're think that's actually the way it really is, and so I think, there's some about certainty and really thinking we have. It worked out that becomes problematic at some level.

That's kind of the beauty of existence right is that there's a lot of mystery to this thing. Yeah, like half of half of that money. Exactly and yes, a jet met, like it's part of that comes from like I feel, like people can get disconnected from there. How and I can be airy fairy too, but it's rich. It's that Israel said to be up in the mind and the brain and then forget that there is. There is the feelings and the tenderness and the vulnerability in a in a positive way, because it lacks a lot of power in the vulnerability. So there some sort of balance that I think it comes in to play from some of the eastern traditions and then some of the western traditions, because I I feel that balance to and the rooms were talking between. You know opening more into the mystical part of things and then also you know needing the concept, meaning the rational mind needing the science

And where is that balance in our modern world? I don't I'm not sure. Where is the balance in the modern world to the modern world is essentially without balance? That's the and criticism of it is that we're raping the earth and torturing our planet, robbing it of its resources and polluting the oceans and all that jazz that there isn't a balance to it all and that the this is just what it is for you. You live this life and your exceptions in your ideas are essentially what flavor it for you and if you, if you choose to MR no nonsense, you still die, you know you live you die and that's it. He solved blind spot yeah, you still limitations yeah, most certainly, and the the the concept of consciousness in this way is more empowering or at least gives you a better feeling about

life that you're living and may enhance. That experience may make the experience a more pleasurable ride and may impact others around you, because I'm here and everything else, yeah we'll definitely made you know when I'm around people that are super positive. I feel better that's undeniable. I don't understand it, but I do you know inherently. This is like a part of you that grasps it, but it's undeniable and when you're around pessimistic people, it's a huge drag. That's a huge ride to be around super negative people like I'm. That's this really negative. Girlfriend wants it. When I broke up with, I remember: dropping her off and driving way going. Thank my god! I'm free! She is what if there was a side of things that was negative, she would find it and just start packing at it an even about that man, it was brutal, was brutal and that you know if you can find the opposite of that find. Someone

is always got a good Taylor K. This is what it is, but from here what we can learn to never do that again, and so this is an awesome blessing in that we've learned a lesson from this and we're gonna move forward, and you know we have a still of love and community and friendship and has a lot of people look at things that way and there's so much more fun to be around. It just makes the experience of life itself more exciting, and in that sense, what what people are in with Buddhism or TM or spending a lot of time in isolation, tanks or it's sort of a. Workaround for biology sort of a framework for developing your consciousness. As you manage your biology to make sense yeah. I think that's a valid with to

we might have run out of mind fucks in this podcast? I think we we hit a wall self, correcting computer code that James Gates and Neil Tyson might have thrown us into a wall. This is, How do you guys get involved in all this stuff like wood? What did you like gravitate towards this as a young person, just thing you discovered early on and sort of. Slowly, but surely it became a massive part of your life, for I think for for both of us. That's probably true. I don't speak family but a first for me. I grew up with hippy parents into a new AG parents, and so the notion of meditation and consciousness was was kind of part of the dialectic growing up where'd you up. I grew up Asheville North Carolina love that place. That's where from yeah. That's where we live now, you guys live their place. So

awesome. I don't tell people about it so awesome. When I was there, I was walking down the street I was like this is like, doesn't exist in anywhere else. The words getting believe me. It is getting exam ads, and now it's really out now it's really out. This is amazing. That's amazing, amazing town, it's quite interesting, yeah. We love it. It's so unusual like I was there with a buddy will Duncan other body in mind. We were walking on the street and go into this restaurant and when they went to this bar is like. Where else is there a place like this? it's like this small town of really like minded folks very open minded. Very progressive, but very small was the population there 100k, I think, is so it's Boulder Sized, that's, which is another similar town like that yeah, it's very, but you guys are like tucked up in the mountain,

we're in a holler we're in a holler. We like it yeah, it's amazing. How do you get there? I grew up just outside of their little town called Mars Hill, and I grew up two hours away in Wilkesboro. Small town seem to grow, attended towards Astral now. Well, we we actually lived in boulder for about a decade really yeah. We were working. She was working in Europa University. I went to school there all that is that Freaky hippy University right Buddhist inspired that we call it the Buddhist inspired Harvard I have a class in Zen flower arrangement Ikebana yeah. I didn't take that one but like this is hilarious. You get an accredited class and zen flowering the only place that I know of yeah yeah. We it's also kind of similar, similar kind of- yeah. The boulder mall certainly does an another place. That's tucked in the mountains, and it's like there's

Something about mountains are so humbling. Like you just looked like you can't be that imp, Morton: are you seeing what I'm saying like your daily life and troubles they? They are balanced in perspective by the images that you're seeing the most spectacular version means of art that nature created. Now the mountains are to me like snow covered. Recovered whatever they are seeing or a lake at the bottom of a canyon and just like here's stunning works of art and the just the sheer vast magnitude of them, like the Rockies forces, people this sort of humility, oh yeah, sort of like beach, towns no like wire beach town. So why is everybody so chill by the beach will look at the fucking Ocean man who taking you so seriously. Look at that thing is fast. You can't see the end and it's all water and it's MOO

open up and back in any point in time it could just rise up in one thousand mile high swell and take out the higher planet yeah! That's right! Yeah! There's something about nature! That's like super important! The people that live in a place where they don't get a chance to see it. You know New York City in a sense is humbling in its own way, because he said everything is natural. You know human beings, creating cities or not much different than a beehive. It's just we're way better at making shit than bees are so we make skyscrapers. But when you're in Manhattan, like la Is there a staying at this hotel, we're pretty high up and you know, you open up your window and you look out the window like. Oh? This is crazy

This is so futuristic and bizarre we're in the middle of it, like all the buildings are around us, we're seeing all these people moving around inside of their windows, some of 'em, I'm sure, with binoculars and telescopes, and shit peering out all the different stories that are playing out in the various little cubicles. And boxes around them absolutely yeah, but I think that the at least to me, the most uh p full version of that those you, the kind of imagery, is the natural version, the real natural version. As far as like non man created, I should say the mountains. There's something about it like specially, like a place like Asheville and or place like boulder sort of like Just defined by its environment, so the Buddhist Geeks thing one of the things that I thought it was interesting that you said that I find to. Is that you

start doing it and people start getting connected to it, and then you feel like kind of stuck in it. Like in that, like boy, I have a responsibility. Now people are enjoying this. Yes getting, maybe, hopefully Some value from it. Yeah. Well, it's a very least being entertained on a bus, you know or on a plane or or what have you you stuck in a commute at the very least that yeah? How often does do it? We do a podcast once a week, so we do like a interview like this, sir. Conversely, like this, probably once a week. Now, when you do those do you prepare for them, like you have like a theme or do you have like questions that you lay out beforehand and usually yeah. Usually it's with a with a person or group that you know we're exploring a particular topic like now. We've explored a lot around the interface. Technology and buddhist practice, various intersection points of how Buddhism is sort of interfacing with ecology in science and technology- and you know various aspects of culture

so will usually kind of go into one of those intersection points and explore with someone who's really been working at the interface and so who is in some ways the most informed and in terms of their ignorance, about what's going on at the interface and just kind of explore it and see what happens, and can you give me example of like one of the recent episodes we do that yeah sure. So recently I talked to Nuro scientist named David Vago who's at Harvard and he's a contemplative nuro scientist, Jake Davis who's a buddhist card the philosopher and we sort of explored some of the recent work around finding covering a neuroscience of enlightenment and they've, been sort of working with the question? Is there a neuroscience of enlightenment? Can we see what enlightenment and quotes looks like in the brain, and is that even possible? Philosophically, like is enlightenment one thing or is it many things and so we really just went through and

sports from their ideas around enlightenment? What is it what options? Are they using found in their in their in their research. 'cause David's been working a lot with folks, like Shinzen Young, who has been meditating for the years and who you know has a really kind of complex of meditation and mindfulness practice, and it's something that he designed to be able to be scientifically studied. So they've been sort of pudding, advanced, meditators, various F, MRI machines and sort of seeing what Happ and they do various kinds of tasks. Seeing what happens when they have these kind of peak moments? You know what actually is occur in the in the nervous system, seeing if they can come up with a model to describe that nurse quickly. That's fascinating! The F Mri is really interesting. Stuff, oh yeah, have you ever been in one? It's so weird? No! No! It's like a shamanic drum beating through your head. Really

it's really bizarre and when I, when we got in there for one of these meditation studies afterwards, I was like. Are they taking into account the fact The F Mri machine itself is like a completely altered state experience right. It's just a huge magnet urine I've been in an mri before a similar here that dung dung dung dung dung some this one had like the one we went to like? Had I mean what sounded like drum beats and all kinds of weird stuff. I mean I was wow yeah I mean I don't know if it's like no that's what it sounded like yeah. It was weird yeah I talked to a Neuro scientists, and they were explaining that there's some issues with F Mri's, where they're trying to use them for crime investigation, an they're being used people who don't understand the limitations of the technology, so someone was accused of a crime in India accused of murder in convicted by an F Mri result because the FM our eyes showed functional knowledge of the crime scene. Oh yeah

exactly- and she was very concerned about this because her perceptions of it were, you could buy reviewing the case itself. And by reviewing the information you could give someone functional knowledge of a crime scene without them actually having been there while the crime scene was going on and that. So, if you could read that there's functional knowledge of a crime scene, it doesn't mean that the person is actually been there while the crime was being played out, mean there's people that have functional knowledge of all sorts of place is like Mount Rushmore and put you know if you play that in some folks head that have like deeply studied history and paying a lot of ten, you might be able to show some sort of a functional knowledge of the area itself. If they have a only if they have a vested interest in studying this, like they're being accused of a murder, you know you would this would be a lot of intensity and emotional connection. To that

things is when it comes to technology and and the understanding of the human brain there. So there of all thing right now in front of us so rapidly yeah, it's true, I mean just recently in the contemplative neuroscience field. They discovered that when you're not doing anything that is like your baseline state, that you are in fact doing something, and then they just sort of that was one of the big insights came out of a contemplative neuroscience was that the default mode network of the brain is actually the selfing network, it's the network that is constantly constructing the sense of identity and referencing oneself, even when you're not doing anything so that you know the assumption prior to that was just like when you're not doing anything, nothing is happening, but actually a lot of stuff happening. It's like yourself program is running basically yeah what what well we don't understand? What the fuck is is that self program? That's the problem: how much that

just keep in the heart beating how much of that is maintaining a normal state without freaking out and ripping your clothes off in a traffic and what causes you to freak out and rip your clothes off and run into traffic, and do you find that having these shows and doing all these podcasts, giving you like a window that you would have normally not had before totally totally? I can't separate now out the experience of talking to all these people and exploring some of the topics that we explore from my experience now. How I understand the world, it's just the so intertwined, I'm sure you can kind of relate to that. Yeah. That's why I wanted to ask you, because it becomes like a part of your life- is not just about having these conversations, but about broadcast in these conversations and exploring them, not just through your own curiosity, but through trying to

either illuminate or figure out a way to express these ideas across where you think they're going to be accepted or understood. The best understood is probably the best way to describe it like that way. It's going to interface with the most amount of people. Yeah I mean. Sometimes I think it's one of the most grandiose things to do is start a podcast to start. You know to be a media person and I sometimes wonder myself service salt, just being he started the podcast seven years ago, so I've kind of been on the periphery of it and just watching it from the outside perspective, too. It's fairly interesting to see how like his podcasts and the stuff that he talks about in his own development. As I don't know, if you can relate to, it, has really come across in each episode as its and now we have an archive of seven years of like development of his own understanding and then how

everything just kinda coldly converges now are really exploring the convergence of the beautiful thing about a podcast. Is that you don't have someone telling you what the subject of today's going to be? You don't have someone telling you this is what you should be interested in. You know you, you find these unique individual visions, because of podcast Some of them are ridiculously stupid and some of them are awesome. You know, and what's ridiculous too to me, is awesome to someone else and that's the kind of the beauty of of podcasting, and it goes along with what we're talking about. I think when it comes to technology Social media is like the interfacing with ideas, the ability to exchange information, it's all sort of radically changing right in front of us- and you know podcasting- is just a part of that. Absolutely. How how do you like you're gonna, take this thing into the future? Do you have any plans for under you trying to expand it? Are you? Are you you're, nodding, search? Your virtual reality is next. I think I got your stock

stop podcasting. Well, I mean well that could happen. We'll see if that's popular, but easier? No, I think you know for us, you know we're doing but is key to the media project, but we're also, you know. Meditation teachers only work a lot with other folks, then we've trained in a with with various buddhist teacher, so for us we are wanting to make a space both for these conversations, but also for people to practice together in virtual space. So that's a lot of our folk slightly is on how to reinvent the buddhist practice tradition for the 21st century and a big part of that working on now is doing retreats online. You know periods, intensive, immersive practice that happen in the context of your life and also you know we're building were calling the Buddhist Geeks Dojo, which is going be kind of describing it as an early version of the matrix for training your mind, the Buddhist Geeks Dojo, the Buddhist Geeks Tote,

and what does that entail? What's going to be, it'll it'll be at least a place for people to meditate together to talk about what's happening in their practice, which basically is there life and to find a community of fo. So we're kind of on a similar journey of of cultivating certain kinds of states of mind and certain understandings. Why Buddhism no like. Why not? Why call it something? Is that work? I mean you're talking about rebelling against Buddhism right yeah. Well, we've rebelled. We've thought about this a lot and we prevailed against Aaron Rebellion currently interested yeah. I mean it's like we don't call it. Buddhism will call it something else and then there's a free work around that, so it's like I can't get outside of the framework, no matter how a framework, no matter, how hard I try and my training and has been with some really awesome people in the buddhist tradition, and I'm not going to be able to just let that you know it's always going to impact me and influence me.

And there's something about the flavor of that tradition and what it reveals hippies, hitman is changing and it's changing it changing changing in what way you guys are changing it a little because of technology and you're interfacing with technology I mean yeah, I mean we're just a small part of it. I mean. How else is it changing? I mean science is coming in really influencing it. The mindfulness movement is very much influence. You could call mindfulness a form of secular Buddhism. I mean only the guy that had that had the most impact on the mindfulness movement, Jon Kabat Zinn was decades studying Buddhism in India and Asia, so I mean Those things are very big shifts in terms of how it's being practiced and the context that it's being held well that's funny that you said this secular, because most people would consider Buddhism

to be some sort of a or maybe one of the only secular religions, and it's it's true in some cases and in other cases it's it's like a lot of other religions, there's a lot of what's the creepiest forms of Buddhism, there must be thrown of us creepiest for feel good. What was most dogmatic, the most ideology filled, I mean I must be right there I think, b, crumb yoga. No, I mean there are lots of forms that you know that are very rigid in terms of how they're taught and what to believe, when you do them, I mean, I think, that's hard to escape in a certain way 'cause when people fine and it was really powerful and works. They get really fixated on it right, like wearing orange, robes yeah dick wearing orange robes, although that's not really that popular more, at least in its current form in the west at monasticism is not definitely not taking off

That's one way it's changing! Also, it's moved away from an ass decision, Tord this more kind of late centered life that being integrated with everyone else. Being integrated in your life. You know how it is I mean, that's, I think, that's true of most religions that are doing well. It's like they've they've, moved away from the transcendent and toward the imminent. You know, they've reconceiving divinity has something that exists in your life as it is. It's not something, that's beyond your in some way that that something's wrong with your life, your your you know your body that you know this is a sinful terror. Vessel that is completely limited, I mean, and it is in one sense, but in another sense like that's just that's intermediary insight from you know from my experience the confining aspects of calling it Buddhism now like what. What is the the pitfalls of that besides hippies, definitely get some problematic it. Not that I love hippies, don't get me wrong. Yeah same hippies come in many shades, there's legit hippie! and then there's like

really annoying hippies, that just sort of you know the used hippie framework to just be annoying sure I mean I'll I'll say one can find anything that um Buddhism is a religion. I mean, at least in terms of how we understand religion is a tax free. Is it tax, free, yeah idea three exemption, the same way that other religions too. We do. We honestly, don't don't that you could you could do that. Yeah you'll give chase down, don't do it, it's really really hairy. We don't want to pay taxes. They go oh really time to take a little closer.

Could the Buddha's Geek Organization, yes, see what you do in on Saturday night yeah? I think with anything like Buddhism. I mean you inherit, but using that framework we inherit all you know we hear it and so there's a lot about religions and spirituality in general. That is not that I don't personally, like you know like what. So I think that there is a there's, a tendency to project. I mean you brought in the word divinity so I'll use that, like to project our divinity onto the teachers are on to some sort of system, and it can be dis empowering for a lot of people. People can get trapped and beliefs that you know have been carried forward for you know, years and centuries that the art isn't forwarding anymore, and so that sense like by choosing to go under Buddhism, were also choosing to. You know work on how we can evolve, how we think about it, and one thing that I really like is

the is the practices themselves, the mind training aspect of it. That's what's been really beneficial to me, and that's one of the reasons why I've chosen to continue because of its impact, the mind training aspects of it like what

what what what do you think is like the tangible benefits of this mine training aspect over that you personally experience. Personally, I can say personally, I feel much much more much more open and much more generous, compassionate there's a lot more freedom. I can get stuck on the smaller sense of self meaning. You know I have these thoughts of like unworthiness or self contraction, hatred or any of those. You know what biological kind of urges and, at the same time, if they're so transient and they're, so not who I am, and I see that very, very clearly that it kind of diminishes in just a second I'm on the good days. Sometimes it's more intense and I've learned to really work with that and learn how to

he clearly what's happening so that I have the freedom to really choose how to live my life in a much more full way. To really is like a work around for a lot of the biological falls. I think so. I think it's a way of working with the situation as it is and and making them most of it. If someone came along with another name, though, like Buddhist like the word, the this of someone came along with another name for a similar practice. Do you think that it would be accepted? They have yeah, I think, there's some. I think the buddhist tradition, especially in the west, has been modified like much of mindfulness based stress reduction, I mean some of these different techniques are taking from the ancient techniques at their something about grooves in consciousness and patterns like you were talking about earlier. So by going under Buddhism work,

end of riding in those grooves and they're, not all bad yeah. I know there's something I don't have my own experience and this it's a little embarrassing in a secular context, to talk about this because It's weird to say you know, for whatever reason I just fell in love with the the forms and the and the the ritual and the you know and just the feel of the aesthetic of Buddha. I for ship? For some reason, I just immediately felt a sense of being at home when I went to the first like meditation, retreat an. Why is there practicing and I was like oh wow, and I felt this deep sense of connection with that particular form and never reason it just like it works for me, and it's unlocked a lot very RAP

Lee that I don't know that would have been a otherwise possible if I was trying to do some sort of practice that I didn't really connect with that much. You know something about just the love of the foreman, the aesthetic itself that I can't really explain, except that I've always liked asian stuff and the inclining of the mind towards awakenings are awakening. You know that framework and itself as it's an interesting inclination, so you just like we had to search for the holy GRAIL. We mentioned that earlier. The inclination towards some kind of inquire into okay and the question presents of earlier like who, who it, who are way, who is this and I've, found that the techniques and the forms have been really revealing in that way, the deification in the teacher is a real issue, though right there really does become an issue with any time. Any person is the distributor of knowledge or for may shun they take this position. Yes, an elevated challenging and I think the

this teachers, you know we're learning as we become hopefully a little better as teachers is that the best teachers use that situation to help people kind of gain. The confidence in the own experience and to be able to know freedom for themselves. You know, through their own practices, of paying attention and being with things an in since the the best teachers are the ones that make themselves irrelevant and the best teachers his teachers make themselves completely irrelevant. I think, and process can be empowering in itself, yeah everyone, so com. Everyone involved ever get into like death, metal or driving too fast or yeah I driving too fast? Do you got a hold, there's a whole movement in the in the west of DOT, the Dharma Punk Switcher Dharma Punk, the Dharma punks, who are based here in LA they were like basically group of folks that my friends there yeah

the reference and you know their whole. You know they have like major house parties with huge music bands and do they do drugs that movement not really Well, I think a lot of them had done a lot of drugs and so part of the movement is actually about being able to be ok without the drug. I think so. That's part of the reason. A lot of people are attracted to that movie. What about drinking we drink? Man yeah! I have a glass of wine the little bit or do you get hammered so, if someone's at the bar and they pass your shot, just don't like it. Feeling. Yeah, it doesn't feel good. I feel like crap afterward, definitely after You know it's not the afterwards part like how do you feel before? How do you feel daring the hyphal afterwards like if I take the average of that I don't feel very good, so I don't tend to yeah that's personal

into Bukowski, used to get upset at stoners Duncan, and I were talking about this last night because they didn't have to pay for the experience they did Have the hangover the blue cast be felt like you earned your drunk with the hangover loved that he there's a there's a hang over from being stoned. It's just a little more subtle. Really. You feel like that, yeah sure we feel like to hang over for being stoned as I don't feel it at all. It's a it's, a quality of kind of a little bit slow, genus of the mind and of an inch Recent self referencing talk for me, like of of like more like subtle, fear and anxiety and and self preoccupation. That's what I've noticed that's fascinating, like in what way. In, in the sense that the described like you know after I've smoked marijuana like during its

It's an insightful opening experience, but after there's a sense of kind of being groggy and sludgy and like everything, is like less clear and less open than before, and so there's a quality of kind of like like contraction that comes after the expansion. So that's what I would describe it it's it's like a mental contraction is not like the headaches and no it's not as physical as alcohol. Do you guys getting that North Carolina? We does going on judges in California, we'd use. Never we live in boulder set in the city of us right. You remember. We we lived in boulder, so we we've, we've tried all varieties yeah, I'm sure! That's all! Maybe it's a no! I don't experience that yeah I mean I mean, maybe it's the mental training that we've done and being a little more sensitive to that I don't know, I don't know, but I don't get sludgy afterwards. There's no sludge Innis there could be personal differences this also indica, there's a just a job that which is a wide

virgin by a wide margin. The majority of what most people are getting yeah, it's easier to grow. It's more, common and it's what a lot of people were looking for is got more that narcotic effect, where is the city even have more of like an uplifting, different sort of, and then is also the eating of it, which is much more introspective. That's much more cycle, much more psychedelic, that's right, yeah. So personally, I don't have anything against of mind altering substances. I think meditation is a mind altering substance, I'm more just curious about. How do we use the substances? Are we trying to get away experience? Are you trying to have inside so are trying, because the problem with so many substances used you get into a pattern of of of of really trying to cope with the difficulty of experience and then getting addicted to that state as a way

dealing, and I think that's where the problem comes in from a kind of mine training and contemplative perspectives? Thank you. That's a good way describe it, because that is what sort of happens right. That's that's why people get drunk? That's what people do pills. Yes like this. This existence is so confusing in its of that you just want to escape and then use even that escaped becomes a trap, and then you have to escape again. You have to keep the scaping and then, if you stop, then you gotta deal with all this shit that comes up feel good yeah, and then you got to go to rehab and try to wean your body. The escape, and if your a teacher. You gotta be concerned about how everyone perceives you, because you're not perfect, because all pilled up, that's right! You a pill. Buddhist teacher teachers are all fucked up on Adderall, oh, there are as many buddhist teachers doing as many weird things as there are any other humans, I'm pretty sure

but you hope that at least overall there would be more improvement in their overall character or ability to cope with this existence. I think there is overall, I think people inclined towards openness and then there's a balance between you know the multiple levels of development. I don't know, meaning that you know just because we developed in spiritual context. Then you also have you know your social context, and so we have to continue to the up evenly. You know yeah spectrum. I think that's one of the trickiest paradoxes like you can become really good at being in this free, the liberated open, spacious, mind. Some people are incredibly good at you just with them and have a hit of that. You know, but like their sex life

completely messed up, you know and they like abuse, small dogs and children, and really I mean I'm, I'm I'm I'm exaggerating a little, but not that much I mean there are people who have had profound, profound realizations of the interconnection, all things and and they're profoundly dysfunctional on other levels, and I've met many of those folks and have been those folks. At times you have been folks no yeah, I've been dysfunctional and messed up and doing stupid stuff. What you're practicing Buddhism sure? What was the influence that cause you to be dysfunctional and fucked up, while usually in the insights that come from Buddhism that direction so the insights that have stabilized beef really sure sort of I got a psychedelic experience to make someone go crazy, permanently or temporarily yeah. I think I've I've I've gone through periods. I I'd say

bless. It's been less the buddhist meditation as much as been like healing just parts of my past. You know being human and having been through difficult times. You know, I think more of it's probably been the logical and one of the common things that happens. You know in a spiritual context, that people use their spiritual product practice to by pass those human psychological issues. It's called spiritual by passing so for me, I think part of what happened. Is I bypassed for a long time and really deep in a particular way and then had to come back around and deal with, like my human experience on a level that I hadn't the before, and then it was really painful. So it's almost like you have these sort of confining aspects of your personality that, because of perceptions, those confining aspects are probably good And then Buddhism comes along and blows down those boundaries and you're like I'm, not ready for this yet and then you freak out,

a little bit and then you come back around yeah yep and then the integration part, I think, is kind of what you're talking about two is is going deep in the contemplative space and then, if we're inclining, our minds towards you know seeing the reality of like what's really happening here like how are we constructing this reality and that starts to you know, peel back. You know there are moments where it's like, so much, there's a lot of freedom and then, at the same time it's like oh crap, like I gotta figure out how to integrate this in my life and maybe that those insights of the vast missing the spaciousness and that you know we're not just our bodies and we're not just our limited views of who we are. You know those insights have to be integrated into the way that we live our life and that's challenging part. That's when

you know the rubber meets the road and dot intake psychological work, it takes body work, it takes really tumbling, it's very humbling, because then it you the putting the teacher on the pedestal going back to that. It's like okay, we're actually all in this together and you know, maybe you know I've traveled these these enter worlds and can help other people navigate them. At the same time. You know we have to come back as a collective. In and, like you know, we gotta wash the dishes, he's got take out the trash, and then you know, if you have kids, you got a raise, the kids and, and how do you do that without without killing each other? you know them as more of our teachers, Jack corn fields. As often you have to remember your Buddha nature and your zip code both and right and the zip code- part I think, can be hard if you've been focusing mostly on on recognizing your your so called Buddha. Nature is like

The way that your mind inherently is yeah. That's similarly discussed the psychedelic community, like what's the point in having these experiences. If you can't bring back the revelations and enhance your actual, here now: life sure thinks it's really important and then and then, when it is the integrated like a, I definitely want to flush it out just a little bit more, so people can get the sense of that. Yes, there really their difficulties and they're beautiful, vast spacious. Moments and then at the same time, and even we don't have any beautiful splash like a bass bases moments. Even this moment in itself, as you're sitting here can be beautiful. We've all touched into that you know so it's It there's a sense that when it's a wearing out, that's how we describe it's a wearing out process of a smaller sense of who we are and that integration process is not always easy and yet, as it happens,

over all in over the long run. We are very, very, very beautiful people. You know like there's that capacity to be extremely powerful, extremely beautiful and connected really connected with each other, and that's that's. What inspires me, to talk about all of this. So in a sense you guys kind of buddhist evangelists. That's are we what but doing in the podcast sort of explaining or expressing what? How is his enhance your life? This is one way: it's yeah, it's one! It's one added to it. I mean we we're not evangelists in the in the sort of like missionary sense of right, we're Vangelis in this, in the sense that you know, we think there's value here for some people for some of the time that are inclined toward the sir or find it attractive and if they do like we have. You know it's useful to be able to connect with other folks. Who've who've done it and

I'm in some sense can you know, can be there with you, one of our one of our mentors said yet that the role of a teacher is to be just a little less afraid that student doesn't mean they're like have a completely figured out. It just means they have a little bit less fear of what's happening. So I think it's useful to connect with people like that. If you find you're attracted to something like that, like if you're inside to psychedelics ma'am, we've we've Ford, psychedelics units useful to go work with people who know a bit about it and who can like not freak out if you have a bad trip or if you start losing your your mind, you know that can like extend their stability to you so that you can actually go through that process and learn from it and in the end, like empowering experience of it, or at least an empowering interpretation of what happened instead of just feeling, like, oh my god, reality sucks and like I'm just going to be depressed and you know kind of crawl into

I'm. So I think you know the same way you know for us. We just want to create a space where people can in a practice together, like like they've, been doing for thousands of years sitting in exploring their minds in a collective. Well, I think you two or the calmest people I've ever had the podcast. This is been like the calmest podcast ever and I think yeah in that sense, you guys are excellent representations of the buddhist lifestyle. Thank it's all about being a piece sometimes being chilled and- unless you're a dharma punk. Unless you, unless you're driving up the four hundred and five nine o'clock that'll, do it to you. That will definitely do it to you. Thank you guys very much spent a lot of funds entertaining uh three hours and uh. If anybody wants to get ahold of your podcast, your twitter Oil is Buddha, deep Buddhist geeks, Emily Horn and Vincent Horn. Those are two individual twitter

and your website puthiskicks dot com and the podcast is Buddhist geeks and available on Itunes. All that jazz, you guys, Stitcher! Yes, yes, excellent! Thank you just do you have a a video aspect of it or just audio only we do a conference every year, and so we've recorded all of the presentations at the conference and to release those eventually Phidias tomatoes on Buddhist geeks, dot, com, yeah, okay, terrific! Well, thank you thank you very much. It's been a lot of fun thing very interesting. Thank you. Thanks to our sponsor, thanks to Legalzoom dot com, go to Legalzoom dot com and use the code word Rogan at the Referral box at checkout to save yourself some money thanks all. So to blue apron, go to Blueapron dot com forward, slash what is it four slash: Rogan, sprint dot com, Slash, Rogan and get your first two meals for free,

Will be back tomorrow with stand up comedian Nick Yousif and uh lots more podcasts this week. So take care and Bob for now big CASS from LA.