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chicken! Is there a better way to go about it, Joe Quirky, tear from the Seasteading Institute, young Jamie, Que the music experience, for those of you who are not familiar with my gas joke. Work is from the Seasteading Institute and the Seasteading Institute Seasteading as a very unique concept: and it's been going around over the last x amount of years online. There been all these articles videos where people have talked about international waters going out and creating a city, a floating city and tr trying to re engineer society. This is you know all of the land on the earth has been sort of claimed and taken. You can't really start your own built in the middle of nowhere without the government

crashing a parade. But can you build a city he and design a utopia based on the mistakes that we see in society today. Is that a fair? accurate way of describing one misperceptions is that seasteading is not about creating one seastead? It's about close, as you can get to this thing. We hope you can move it around two, ok, good! Sorry, we can. We want to create as many seasteads as possible to provide people with the technology to found their own floating country and The idea is one hundred and ninety three national governments. Don't rep, isn't the range of ideas that seven billion people have produced and we're sort of have these government monopolies that control the decisions people make an in to have solutions for how to live together. We have to force them through these one hundred and nine three government monopolies. Technology in every other front is moving forward and the thing that's who in this back is that we're not innovating in the technology of governance

to the key idea is if we can create a silicon valley of the see if we can get you know. Thousands of Hong Kong's in Singapore's and Isles of Man's on the ocean and allowed innovators to go out there and form their own societies. Will discover new ways of living together and will push forward evolution in governance and what's the stops, fucking psycho like Jamie over here, starting the J country and just even like a one mile square thing that he's built some rap then it's. You know some mad max style world, no, nothing right, yeah well. This is the key idea Mean Jamie, can go out there and declare himself in a tyrant of Jamie Stead, but the problem is He has to attract people to come to his seastead and you just the key idea that makes floating nations differ from land based nations. I mean, if you are a evil dude and you take control of a land based nation. You got. You got monopoly control over those people. Those people don't have any choice. That's the problem with modern Gov,

so we can't choose among them, like we can, among other products that advance quickly. If we're on the sea, you gotTa Pete to attract immigrants, you got to compete to attract investment. You gotta compete to attract people to give you money so that you can be the business in a way that they think is profitable. You gotta attract diff kinds of ideologues out there. It's going to start as a business and you think of countries as being founded by conquerors, the future seasteads being founded by creators. What I like to call Aqua Preneurs that sets a pleat Lee different Dynamic, and if people can choose among seasteads that will drive what we think will be a market of competing governments competing to please people, and then this will ugh Unleash the innovation. That's out there, for them, half century people have come up with wonderful ideas for how we could live together. If you can go online and look up also, the interesting rule sets the problem.

No ground is claimed is no place. We can try this out. So the for permanent floating structures is coming. Half the earth. Surfaces is unclaimed by existing governments. We have a new frontier and I think it's time we started call using it in building floating cities. It's a very interesting concept, but I'm going to be honest, my own personal feeling about it. It's not not my opinion of how it should go about, but my own feeling when I hear this, the idea that I go yeah. That would be interesting, but man it brings up all these other problems, like some crazy fuckers, are going to have their own weird. Countries floating out there and who's going to What kind of lawless lands are going to create what kind of weirdness, but I think about when I analyze my own thoughts about my own instinctive reaction to it like it's just. I know, there's something wrong with the way society structured today, but change

brings a whole new set of problems and people are afraid of change yeah in order to understand ceased and you kind of have to go deep about where solutions come from, and so what's the right way to live together. The answer is we don't know why the right way to make this microphone? We don't know these kind of, magnificent solutions, they're not designed by some really smart person. They emerge from millions of people competing in a market to please us So we're on this exponential rocket, in all areas except governance, and the problem is, is that governments are monopolies and MOE. The problems were afraid of eggs among current monopolies of governance and the the idea is that on the water, a flu environment is fundamentally different from a land based environment. If you have a chunk of land very easy for a conquered, take it and declare monopoly control, and then the government does

advance it. Just it has no incentive to advance if you're on the water and trees can only form if people choose to attach to each other. There is no land. Unless you attract people to come visit you with those people aren't happy your you're seastead. They can detach and move somewhere else will have a completely different situation where, instead of citizens competing to survive their governments, decisions, governments competing to survive, citizens decisions. So if you a governor and your compete to attract citizens and you go bankrupt and your sister, this appears as people detach and move fluidly somewhere else, it'll be much for to kinda, control, more consolidation and then anything thinking about citizens, you're thinking about customers. Looking for the and governance they want an when you think about it. This is variation and selection, very uh, by governments, selection by citizens,

and I started as a science writer and a novelist. I wrote a lot about evolution I thought about. Why is there progress in the world? While is there? Why don't just chaotic your brain so sublime in biology that it can understand these symbols, I'm sending to you this coffee, mug so available, so cheap and so plentiful? It's because of variation and selection, decentralized variation, selection and when exposed to Patri Friedman's ideas about evolution like in the primal soup of the ocean. I realized he was right in on a fluid frontier where people can detach and move about and choose the societies they want. You would have variation and selection we'd unleash the kind of progress we see in market in technologies in governance, and we governance is a technology. I think it's real

interesting. This comparison that you made in recent video that I watched about cell phones and the company and that drives cell phones to innovate and the reason why we have such amazing phone today we have all these apps. While we have all these incredible cameras, great bad life, and it's because there's this incredible competition and multiple platforms, all across the world everyone's trying to come up with the biggest best thing every year, but in government you have none of this. You don't have any competition, it's not bunch of people competing to see who could whose ideas are the best. It's a very rigid, strict structure, that's in place, it's been in place for a long time. It's archaic! It's it's very, very flawed. The representative government we have in this country today. When you look, you look at the influence, they have it be the and you look at the influences on them as far as corporate interest special interest groups lobbyists, it's all madness mean no one in. Right mind. If you had a chance to re engineer society, no one

look at it and go perfect. There's no reason to talk with this. This is this thing is great I know it's a terrible, terrible system and it's the only system we have, and it is these system, and if you try to change that system, your trader or psycho or whatever the fuck, you are in an artist you're, a member. What are cult leader? This idea is that this same sort of competition that has led everything to innovate, to the incredible degree that it is at today, whether it's computers, whether it's cars all the things that we seen enjoy today in our society that that that are at this in pretty high level, it's because of competition, and that is the exact thing that is wrong with our government. This stagnation is two party system, influenced by corporations. That has the same mandate: the same ideas, the same tired rhetoric over and over and over again an seasteading. You believe, offers a potential opportunity to

break that moment. Yes and it's about breaking the mold, and I think the future of humanity turns on the pivot of this problem, because everything is advancing very quickly but Gov. This is not an it because it is these monopolies, like you- and I don't have to argue about you- know which app we're going to have on our Iphone and we all, vote on the app and then that we all get one app and we have to agree on it. And then we have to wait for years to vote on the next app we're all going to get. No, we apps periphery. We all get to choose them. This drives innovation in that field, and you know governments you can imagine in the government were in right now, there's like three hundred million people that have to fight with each other over is small. Little changes and then everyone ends up with a bitter compromise, and nobody is happy- and I astonished at how people pushing forward this blue frontier have been in day. Pendantly attracted to the metaphor of apps, so is this dutch guy

pronouncing his name. I don't know how to speak. Dutch, he runs water studio and he is his all. We created what he calls city apps, so we take big containers and he converts them into schools. He converts them into water, pure vacation unit c converts them into the hospitals, and he proposes he wants to float these things too. Crappy coastal governments and park them in the slums and provide schools and those kind of thing. For children and the the the advantage of these things have is that they are movable Suppose the government says we don't want that. Well, then, you can move, move it somewhere else it much easier than having to build school in those areas. He calls this program city apps, and I bet he's going to be doing this in the next couple of years. How far out do you have to be from shore? Does it vary from country to country? It depends on what we're talking about is very slightly from country to country. In some cases it's twelve miles so,

for instance, some see sitters are physicians, an biotech entrepreneurs and they're interested in innovating in the space stem cells or in biotech and feel like the regulations written in nineteen. Seventy are holding back innovations written in two thousand and twenty another. With monopolies that can't update their rules. So we're just stuck with these old rules. Somebody Guys just want to get a cease, did twelve miles offshore and start pushing forward stem, doesn't biotech, which is personalized. Medicine is the future of medicine. It can change everything. People want to get floating hospitals offshore, cheaper, better, faster care, millions of people travel to India to get you're better, faster care from you know: american trained physicians, white ache, a plane all the way across the world, and you can take a ferry just offshore, but to really be truly independent country. You have to go

about two hundred miles off shore two hundred miles, yeah. That's a really interesting point. You just brought up about medicine, about cheaper, easier, faster care arm or better care. That's so that's a very complex and tricky issue, because a lot of people worried about quacks lot of people worried about people that are not following all the regulations that have been set by the American Medical Association and the you would attract, but the bad people- yes, yes and then the so. The thing about the fluid rent frontier requires us to rethink these assumptions that we we bring to this. So I mention the fluid frontier. That's across the ocean yeah I got. I got a million

the blue frontier. So imagine, I'm a quack work, the clack and I go out there and I start offering some crazy procedure that causes cancer killer transmit, but enhancement caulking. Let's do an ins, I'm if if I start killing people I in a, I don't have a monopoly that the first see step that like kill somebody or causes a disaster. That would the end of that seastead that no one will move there. No will go there. No will invest in it. To take an example, one of the guys I'm going to feature in my seasteading book is Dr Chris Senteno, and these innovative in the realm of stem cells. There's pee all that lost example. Jarvis Green is a two time super bowl champ he cartilage under his kneecap christen. Ten was one of the he thousand successful operations where

only take stem cells out your hip re inject. Some into your joint. You grow a new cartilage like a baby Jarvis Green had been forced to retire. He took centenas treatments. He grew back as cartilage and he set a signed with the Houston. Texans he's had fabulous success with his procedure. After a thousand more than a thousand successful procedures, FDA knock on his door and said you can't offer this procedure. It's now illegal in the United States, this particular thing, so he was forced to license his procedure to the Cayman Islands, to to a company called Matix Synapse are flying to the Cayman Islands to get this procedure done, so economists call this regulatory capture. We have this instinct that if you make a monopoly of regulators and put them in place the protect us, but what ends happening is the dominant industries within that area and up

pulling the regulations are having undue influence in the regulations. Well is, process that this guy has to go through in order to clear this particular procedure that he hasn't done yet at first he thought he that he did and he thought, and it was all legit, but the FDA is unclear about what its jurisdiction is. They They came in and literally declared that your own stem cells once taken from your body and process, are now drugs so that okay! Well, your stem cells are no drugs. So now we have jurisdiction. We're telling you to stop, and you know that's absurd I'm actually quoting from the letter they sent. Sinto stem cells are known or drugs. Well, there's this process that I've gone through called Regina king. Are you aware of you heard of it

I don't think so. There's a doctor name is Peter Weller from Germany. He created this procedure where you take blood out of a persons body, you spin it in a centrifuge and apply heat to it, and the heated blood produces this incredibly potent anti inflammatory agent and it's it's extracted from the blood. It's like a yellow serum. Injected directly into areas of inflammation joint, swelling things along those lines laugh. This is very similar, yeah, probably and a I can donate my blood to somebody else. But now I donate my own stem cells to myself. Well, This'Ll does well I'm confused. Is this procedure? Is legal in the United States? It's legal, it's called off label, it wasn't for a while. They had it in Germany in the law or Kobe Bryant. A lot of these athletes were for

trying to do a lot of UFC guys flew to Germany to get this procedure done, but now it's available in several different places in America. I got mine done at this place, called Lifespan Madison in Santa Monica, and it's incredible I mean it has amazing effect on knees. Amazing effect, I had it done on my neck. On my back, I mean just any any areas that were like problem areas. You can reduce inflammation this incredible way, but it's essentially the same thing: it's taking your own blood out, making it turning into the serum, then injecting it back into your body. What's different about what this guys doing, that illegal. Do you know I don't know at the minute. Think of it, but you're talking about is a new innovation. Coming up with new innovations and the climate among people innovating in healthcare and in the stem cells and with biotech is one of fear, like they don't know, what the government is going to tell them to do, because the rules are unclear, they're, very complex and keep changing the rules and this

pulls the innovation we need. So if Look at you know the psycho dramas of our age. It's you know: healthcare care, its banking. It's no, the public environment is education, its war, it's all the things that governments micromanage and so these things, improving with all the other things we use that aren't micromanage by government. It's because Don't have in innovation, because the government monopolies, ultimately don't permit them if you have a monopoly, you don't want people to compete with you and we went provide more market competition on the ocean in a place. You don't have to. You know against anyone on the ocean. There's! No! It is against this micromanaging, but is there some benefits like like, for instance, the government's been cracking down on Dr Oz lately for all these bogus fat loss claims like this he's been all these different things in the show

on his show that are mirror calls them literally in his own words, miracle fat LOS cures, sure and then it turns out. They don't reduce fat at all. Literally, do nothing and and he's in trouble for that. That's it Morton right. I mean it isn't: What they're worried about with this stuff that someone can tell you, hey man, we're going to take some party of your? about it. We're going to fix your find bifida we're going to fix your school we're going to fix whatever the hell you got when injected it. It turns out. It's not do jack shit yeah. You know there might be some sort of a placebo effect that some people report, so you have some conflicting evidence, but is it important that there's some sort of a government regulatory or at least board of FISH Asians, who are knowledgeable in whatever field that approve or disapprove any sort of procedure, is not important I think these kind of things are important and but it's even more important to hit restart once in awhile. Okay. So if I want to stop, you know what you're doing that you like about the re injection of the blood I've never heard of this. They can call

the rule written in nineteen. Seventy five that the p that wrote those rules were not able to predict this innovation that happened in twenty fourteen or whenever it happened, and the idea is with new. Do blue fluid rules on the ocean? We have to start again with a new regulatory structure, and this happens. Naturally, when there's competition against against monopolies, In a sense you trying to do what the founding fathers of the United States did. They tried to see. It's going wrong in Europe and what what they don't like about the the system that they were controlled under they leave to come to America, establishes new country set for these new rules and regulations as new ideas and then a couple of later they turned a dog. Yes, I think it would be whenever it's a monopoly and it ends up turn into section. How do you stop that from happening on Jamie C stead? This is Jamie, looks like a God, Damn victor to me. I think you get that guy out there on the c

he's got his own little island next thing you know he's and all the women it's like Waco in the ocean, yeah and I'm and you're putting this into perspective the United States, because I think the United States- it was a giant life raft. You tens of millions of people who are misfits in their home countries came here to try out their crazy ideas and they discover new ways of living together that didn't up change in the whole world and if they're never been this giant life raft where people to try something new right now would be arguing. You know which x, better Communism or Marin, be the only options that we have. The United States discovered new things that people just take for granted like the democracy and women's rights, and things like this and it it happen. All over the world now He goes out on the ocean, starts his own seastead dead. Not claiming some giant bunch of land with a bunch of captive citizens that he can control. He has to can it's people that he seastead can make a profit that is,

it can provide blue drops and attract people out there. That is, he's will survive compete. Are there other stats? Imagine an environment where citizens at anytime can detach from a sees dead and flow to a different seized, but can they really because if you have a cease to save you hi, what's what's the pharmacy step, because I'm thinking it's a floating city for the floating city, floating cities have condos condos you buy you're stuck there. You got a mortgage you're, not going anywhere. You stuck on his floating city. He goes crazy, he's doing math. Now, God damn it. I got to condo on this meth heads seastead. I can't get off. I owe this money I'm up down on my loan. We're going. Do I have family, my kids go to school in the seastead yeah, What happens in land based governments right? One way to think about this is: is the dutch our country is sinking there. Building floating homes, they built a floating pavilion, they're working on a flow sure

There there there there they've been fighting against the water for a thousand years bill. Dams, the little dutch boy that plug the damn with his right there so custom to the water? When you go there and suggest we need to build floating cities and they don't think it's crazy and the company were working with on our floating city. Project delta sink Y n C speaks sadly about the mobility of moving units forming floating cities and how this works. The kind of market, competitive governments that would be peaceful that would empower citizens and disempower governments to governments are going to be constant. A governments will be hustling to cracked citizens rather than hustling to seize control of them, because the ocean is such a fundamentally do medium in which human

sure can compete now. Have you ever I'm sure you have shouldn't even ask that way. What about crime like? How are you going to protect citizens from invading cease debtors from pirates? How we not going to have like water, world first yeah yeah. I would. I would get this a lot in the end, and one way to think about it is that there's about a hundred thousand boats on the c right now and civilization right yeah at this moment, riding around the whole world? I think so. Yeah criss Crossing and most of them and docks and they're dropping stuff off, and you know if weren't. For all this fluid commerce, the the you know the the world economy would collapse. I thought it was way more than a hundred thousand votes on the whole plant recorders. Water yeah does matter and, if you think about all those boats have to have some form of security

and when you, when you hear about violence, you almost always hear about land based governments involved in violence. You rarely hear about violence and crime on ships, though it occurs so all civilization requires some kind of security and all votes have water propulsion. They have sound propulsion, they have, they have armed guards. I at this point, seventy five percent of of container ships have armed patrols on board and I written cruise ships have walked around american cities. Cruise ships are price of skyscrapers in their lot safer than some of the american cities I've been in, so he is really not a problem. If you're going to, you know make a new floating nation, you should have some security, but if you think about Iceland, Malta, Bora Bora, Bora Barbados there so many islands out there defense it's against the Big Nations Cayman Islands is an example of

no standing army. A lot of a lot of island nations have no standing army, they do business with the big nations and the way I it is, you know if you're gonna found your seastead did like a cleaner fish in a world of sharks. You know is not invading Hong Kong. The United States is invading the Cayman islands. Malaysia hasn't invaded Singapore when New Island nations provide huge economic value to the big nations, they do quite well. So The idea is that just it'll be it'll, be some sort of a benefit that the rest of the countries have by these competing governments. Don't, but don't you think that they would find that these competing governments put pressure on them to soar, to innovate and they would they would want to stifle that in some sort of way. Well, we shall see, because that's one of the key ideas I mean people little Une. Stand the power of small island nations to change the policies of great nations, and there are numerous examples of this. The most obvious one would be: Hong Kong,

you know Hong Kong gain some level of independence from China. Sort of an interesting, hybrid, called EAST meets West and create like fabulous wealth in a very short at a time, embarrassing, China, into changing its policies. China has a lot of problems, but by opening its markets with You know DEN pains open door policy, it's it's at least one slash two billion Chinese too, to escape poverty. Be cause of the example set by Hong Kong and their examples. It's over and over Portugal decriminalize, drugs, science, American, published the fabulous effects and that's changing policies in the rest of the world. I can go on and on with this e Stonia, with the flat tax island nations, innovate in ways that large continental nations imitate, and we create more of these. Why?

we look at like the african Island of Mauritius when we look at Hong Kong when we look at Singapore, when we look at the uh All of man all these play innovated and affected and been used? As example, of policies that have been instituted by larger nations. Now, when it comes to a practical application of this, how far away do you think we are from a legitimate seastead nation and it depends on how you define a c stead right now, we're working on the floating city project which were getting the car. The dutch company I mentioned before Delta sink created a feasibility study, so we hope to have a small floating floating, be with some level of independence in a host nations territorial waters, hopefully by twenty, only if all goes according to plan, so here's yeah and this I'll be in the territorial

shallow waters right after so it'll be under the jurisdiction that particular government will be under the jurisdiction of that particular government and we've got were closed. One deals with those governments willing to offer us some level of independence to see what create this is not a radical idea. I mean the special economic zone. Movement that's happening across developed nations is based on this idea of will create one little space where people can experiment with new rules 'cause. Even we politicians to recognize that in our government is screwed up, we'll see what kind of wealth can be created mean. Hong Kong started a movement that happened all across the world or now we're propose Let us do a floating one. We don't need any air land, let's see what can create me, but we can hire some local people, so we want to create a demonstration seastead that will attract some attention and a track more brains to the problem and hopefully we'll be able to move further out

and solve the remaining engineering challenges of floating breakwaters and large enough seasteads to remain stable on the high seas, and this is this is an engineering challenge that remains to be solved. But if you think about Shell's prelude is larger than the empire state building, it's a floating oil and gas facility that will built for hall, and it should be on the water by two thousand and seventeen uh. It's going to be in international waters for twenty five years. All the technologies are sort of closing in on solving the problem of creating a floating structure on the sea, and I think the more creative people we attract to this problem. I think the quicker will solve the problem and have a floating city. I think it will happen in the next couple of decades and it's easier to float than fly. We have space stations floating above us. We can certainly make see stations, it's just that would have been more sold on the idea of space,

they haven't been sold on the idea of floating cities. This is a pretty radical proposition to invest a significant amount of time in like what led you down this road because this is I mean this, isn't just like: hey man, let's move, and workers United States socks. This is like, let's start our own thing, and let's do it in is very radical way. What what was it that made you want to? You know invest so much of your time being part of Silicon Valley and seeing that so much innovation comes from people being able to freely compete and come up new innovations and all of a sudden, I'm using instantaneous global telepathy, which we call twitter. I never would have imagined such a thing could exist twenty years ago and I think radically underestimate the potential for innovation and I'm very excited about the future of technology and I'm in deep despair about the future of governance,

and when I saw that mobile nations on the sea that can disassemble and be reassembled elsewhere. According to the the decisions of the citizens, I realize wow. This is a fundamentally diff right way in which human nature can compete. That would be much less conquering and killing and much more about creating value in attracting people to move there and You know we're living in a world where you and I are a member of the global one percent. You know the World Bank estimated that if you make thirty four thousand US dollars a year, you are part of the global one percent. Meanwhile, we have this bottom billion who work for less than one dollar and twenty five cents a day. Thirty four thousand dollars a year is a global one percent. Yes, that's What the World Bank estimated another group estimated about fifty five. 55k yeah,

so it's like Americans have taken the upper part of the hockey stick. I just chop of the one percent of that and start complaining about that. Yeah. It's not hilarious yeah, so we're fabulously wealthy with our access to institutions and there's another billion people. Or eight hundred million, depending on how you look at it, who don't have access to this and again poll in two thousand and nine uh. There's seven hundred million people who told this poll I want to leave my country forever, get the hell out and go somewhere else, and all the existing nations are acting as gated communities, locking them out this, not counting the people. That say I want to go somewhere for short period of time make my money and come back. These are all the people like tomorrow. I will leave my home, so there's desperate people we want to go somewhere. I think c won't be able to survive without immigration without attracting immigrants. So

so a lot of c sitters are interested in aquaculture. Creating vat see we farms on the sea vast tab reforms to provide the world with food and fuel great thing about Algy, but they grow their own bio, mass with carbon and nutrients, both of which are polluting the oceans. You could, in a sense, fear in view of the world with greenhouse gas. If you could ramp up these ocean for descale needed to feed people, you I need a higher millions of people to have forms. I don't think you and I are going to go work and algy form, but I people in Yemen or Somalia or Afghanistan would gladly take jobs. There I mean there's migrant workers are fleeing their countries in trying to find better lives everywhere and uh, one of the reasons I'm interested in the seasteading is: I think we have the potential to uplift. Cigna

big in proportion of the bottom billion. If you did develop this, how would you or would you at all control immigration to your seastead? I mean how do you, how do you weed out the undesirable? How do you keep people that are murderers and criminals from other countries that are fleeing jurisdictions of wherever they're from they get in a boat, and they showed that you see stead and just fucked the whole thing up security. Hopefully, like you can imagine you start Avast, Algy farm you're going to be interested in being safe and and there's already numerous security industries working the oceans that provide security for all sorts of oceangoing vessels, so that that industry already exists and it does a better job than you know. Land based cops and militaries actually but if you offer better jobs, if you offer a blue jobs to people, the take those jobs,

specially, when you consider that we're talking twice the population in the United States has announced that they are ready to go somewhere else, there's not there's not many places they can go, and you know I was talking to a a woman from Senegal Magatte Wade and she was telling me you know people my country. They they away on boats and they you know they die they drowned. She says there are fish food there, people so desperate to get out of their countries. There John well, it's not knowing where they're going to go. Saying just get me anywhere, get me out of this hellhole and those people will take better opportunities. Just like you know, I'm irish hundred years ago my ancestors were extremely poor. They took better jobs in the United States, low paying jobs, and now they are. Your grandchildren are living lives of fabulous prosperity, and we need to keep this

when we did more life rafts out there for the bottom billion. So would you have any sort of filtering system to keep people out? Would you verify passports and do background some people before you? Allow them an mean? What's the idea behind that, it's just going to be open and figure out. How to do it along the way when, when things go bad and then you get One way to think about this is it's not it's not about designing a society. I have no ability to design the society. I'm working today hide the technology so that other people can design their societies and, like new countries created in the past few decades, uh apply more modern rules to their founding and they do better jobs that you know just been something like twenty nine new countries since, like one thousand nine hundred and ninety, I hope I'm getting those numbers right. Yeah there's been like. Where are got like six. Since you know two thousand and two really yeah people, the new countries are created all the time

people can say I'm never. In her thirties, there were mostly countries breaking up into smaller pieces. A and for any promising. Oh yeah yeah I think, uh e Stonia is incredibly exciting and it's it's innovating in ways. Larger countries are not. You know to innovate in the realm of a flat tax, which was unthinkable, and I think I counted something like since Estonia innovated in the area of the flat tax. They grew it like twice the rate of surrounding european nations, causing arguments among their politicians to the two instantiate, a flat tax. I counted twenty two countries that have adopted Estonia's innovation, so new countries innovate old countries do not and new the new start up. Countries set the exam. Does that change things so Why are we waiting for historical accident? I'd like to create thousands of these, so the

place where you have to let go of the desire for control is to realize it's going to be up the founders of these societies, how they're going to provide security? It's going to be up to the founders who they're going to hire and what they're going to pay them there we're not controlling or empowering people to try things and the reason, I'm less afraid of aquatic nations than continental nations is because aquatic actions will have to attract people to live there. You're not going out in your car in our conquering someplace, where people live and saying I'll, keep everyone safe. You're saying I got to provide you an incentive to come, live with me and the other seasteads competing for the same workers for the same innovators for the same doctors and lawyers if they provide better, cheaper services, then people will detach and move there we're in a situation where there's nothing stopping in Exora Bhal growth of government Becaus? They are monopolies and we, I think you may he has to innovate in this space, and it requires this

deep mind flip to think about the difference between competing over land and compete over fluid the of them on a on a liquid, it's much harder to seize monopoly control. With your with your military over a bunch of boats on the ocean. Is it, though I mean it seems like they would just costs around you? If you try to do a Waco in the ocean, it seems very I, like the branch Davidian Complex out there in the middle of the ocean, like I know, Jamies planning over the mother Fucker going over there he's planning, if you just say, to do that and build some city and put up a giant, Barb wire fence and have sex with everybody's wife and. In store a lot of weapons, the government would probably come in. I mean, if you say, security and I'm obviously playing devil's advocate here. But if you say everyone will be responsible for security in your seastead at what point the security becoming like. Are you allowed to have a jet? Are you allowed to have nuclear weapons? Are you allowed to have you know if you in

to the point where your building some fucking Tesla weapons out in the middle of the ocean that can shoot down anything that comes anywhere near you at what point is the government would feel threatened by you and move in? How big can you get Do you that does every seasteading nation have to be sort of either like satellite of a larger nation. You I'm saying well conquerors, have incentives and the way to think about how this works is to think about precedence that already exist, so the is it the islands of Barbie This in Bora Bora that are just a few miles off the coast of Venezuela. Countries that are much wealthier and Venezuela doesn't attack them the Cayman Islands, you know in many ways takes a spiteful stance towards the regulatory structure. The United States welcome lots of veto, physician, mavericks and financial mavericks to their shores. United States doesn't attack the Cayman Islands

right, but they're not two hundred miles offshore with nuclear weapons, sort of saying if you established a city that became a country, that's loading offshore, that's heavily armed right, so you have to ask how are continental nations in control of nuclear weapons? Why aren't island Asians in control, small island nations. Don't have nuclear weapons and most of them don't have standing armies. You have to pay for that stuff like for me to go. Will attack someone and kill someone? There has to be a financial incentive for me that I feel like or whatever it is, an incentive of power that I feel like the cost of the invasion is going to back. In some great thing, I'm going to get like the oil or any other natural resource that might be within that nation a small island nations like Hong Kong. They don't have any natural resources except a big port. They are able to create all this wealth through trade and through policies, so

How does a seastead get enough money to get to build up a joy nuclear warhead, or something and law. From the seas? Well, couldn't Hong Kong sorta do that with all the money that Hong Kong is generated when they started building army? I think there would probably be a huge issue thank you and yet they don't because they, if you intercontinental nation like say China, you have control over a captive population, You can fleece and pay for whatever you want, so you an amazing amount of capital, brain power and money to build your nuclear weapons, and this is why these large, these large governments to me, are much more of a threat to the golden and some floating island that has, you know, still not go bank. Does it get started? What

is the major roadblock as far as technical capability of the creating something along those lines mean it has it? Has it? Has the technology been invented in order to create a safe floating city, or is this completely theoretical? The key enabling technology at this point is: how do you create something that can float on the high seas? That is a portable by they? You know the average middle class American. I write also in thinking that you don't have to worry about waves like as far as like rogue waves or tidal waves 'cause those more effect like land. Then they do the actual ocean itself. You're floating you just kind of like go up and down a lot. You wouldn't get swamped, I think you're talking about tsunamis, yeah, so rogue waves, like was that stupid movie with Mark Mark, perfect, perfect story. Yeah Tsunami's are harmless on the deep sea. People are

talk to hear that soon, like a tsunami wave, can literally be thousands of miles long. So, if you're on a boat boat over the course of a day. Your boat goes up about a meter and goes down to meet her, and you can easily not notice it tsunami. Become deadly when they hit land and the or to roll and pitch and bury a city. There was a report that I really love where there's scuba divers off the coast of some Thailand City. They were under water to swimming around having a vacation and they say, there's a weird discoloration in the water and there's a little little undulation happening. Oh well, and they go back to scuba, diving. They come back to the surface and hotel with a breakfast in is destroyed. The city is destroyed their swimming, they swam through a tsunami and didn't notice it. So coastal cities are sitting ducks for Tsunami's if you're going to be subjected to Sanam re be safer on a c stand:

So those big crazy ways from a perfect storm like if something comes so so so that is the fundamental engineering challenge huge waves on the ocean, so we the technology to create a floating city in shallow territorial waters and we're going to do that soon. Hopefully, the engineering challenge to be solved as how do you create permanent structures on the water that that are that can stay out there like you can create boats, but the problem is both have to come to shore every decade or two decades to get cleaned. You gotta have something permanent out there and there's numerous technologies. Like whoa, it's been commission been in operation since one thousand nine hundred and sixty two is the flip ship. It's basically shaped like a baseball bat you told it out into the ocean and then is ballast tanks so that it clips, and then it stands up right. Sis like one slash, six of the ship of this big baseball bat is above the water and five six is below the water and it's

tribe is being a stable as a fence post, and these are on the water in one thousand. Nine hundred and sixty two there still on the water. So much it is under the water. Most of it is nobody, essentially the anchor that would be the route that would be the root and so can sit there among the waves and you're on this thing out under water. You know, you can add, I'm looking at a window at a permanent aquarium. Jamies got a photo of it. He just pulled up here. This is what it looks like yeah, that's what the top part of it looks like wow it so most of the can some people of the potential of seastead involves telling I'm about what already exists. I mean that that thing is older than I am. It's been around really yeah, so it's expensive, it's too expensive for regular people to use it's used by the military. It's used by scientists, but you're music free on that thing. Now imagine you make for them or three of them. You can build a platform on it.

You can build floors below the ocean. You can build floors above the ocean, so of many of the seas. Seastead designs you can see on our website are built in such a way that the it looks like there on pillars on like land in shallow water they're. Actually not. If you build your pillars deep enough and buoyant enough, you can set, your seastead up, say you know fifty feet on the surface of the ocean and the ocean waves are moving underneath the seastead and remaining relatively stable on these pillars that are just in water and the pillars go down much further than you. You know we normally think it's kind of like building a a foundation in a swamp yeah. I saw something where they made it. So they they figured out a way to make things so stable that they you can play billiards on a on a boat.

They figure out a way to stabilize like a pool table to the point where it reacts instantaneously to the movement of the ocean and the ship itself. We can keep it stay, he's constantly balanced, yeah, there's so much. I can tell you about, I mean I rode on a cruise ship and alaskan cruise ship and a month ago I was on a Galapagos cruise ship and you can have your martini glass. You pour the martini glass. He said the table. It's not. You know it's not rolling over The larger you make your c stead the more stable it is in the waves. Those boats are kind of see states right, I mean, if you really think about it. Well, that's the the president. We use to get people thinking about cruise ships, I mean they're the size of skyscrapers. I mean you can look at pictures on the internet and realize those tiny little answer: people and everything

people do in cities, they're already doing on cruise ships. You know simulated sky, diving, they have rock concerts on them. Here's this video of these guys playing pool on a cruise ship and the the boat is moving. But yet the balls are are rolling perfectly because the the ship, if you can see the show, is moving, but the table stays compelling while so it adjusts with the movement of the ocean, the table consistently constantly adjust so that the flow or maybe moving, but the balls, never rolling nine crew. That is incredible and that would obviously be on like a smaller boat with not naturally stable anyway, because I'm an increase of two people playing pool. You know you even tell you the water, but if you think about the sinking of that russian Sub, you know they find a company to lift that thing off.

Water without causing off the bottom of the ocean without causing a disaster Omar situation. This is a time ago. It was a few years ago. I think it was called the lawyer and the the come he is called memo Matt. I don't know how to pronounce these things because they're in different languages, but they had to lift this thing centimeter by centimeter, and they had to do. They had to create a platform on the top of the water and create virtually perfect stability. Well, they did this thing. Slowly off the bought the a nuclear sub off the bottom of the ocean noted took the lift it up, and it was a tremendous engineering feat We can go on and on? Like this, we might bore your listeners, but there are multiple technologies that are all closing in on hey. We can get so permanent on the sea and it looks like Shell is going to is going to build one soon. So the question is now: how do we make it cheaper? How do we try? more brains to this. How do

get a kind of x prize attract people to solve this engineering challenge? I think we solve challenge. Seasteading will will drive. Shell is going to build one and they're building an oil refinery. That floats is that with the idea- and it's not they're, not calling it a seastead, but it will be. You know two hundred miles off the coast of Australia. It's built in Like South Korea. And it's bigger than the empire state building. If you can fit several football fields on it and it's be in international waters for up to twenty five years. So it's a pretty city. Is it Think of it is like a giant, it's like a giant skyscraper on the water will be reasonably self sustaining or is it? Is it going to be relying on constant visits, bye bye? ships, like all ships in islands everywhere it requires and constant visits and trade, but this is like

they don't think of it as an independent country they think of it as an shell prelude, fling facility wow. This size of that thing, gigantic uh, bigger than the empire state building yeah more massive and remember how many football fields on it you could play. I think it's five like football games in a row, so it's, it's doable, it's just still too expensive. The act you know Shell can afford that, and they can. They can pay it back. Well, so our skyscrapers right mean you and I can't go out bills, skyscraper, right, Spencer, but we could, if we had a great idea for a business that would work aboard a floating skyscraper like a like a Ganttic, hospital, floating Cayman islands. You know one of my heroes, who's building, a health city in the Cayman Islands is named, Debbie Sheddy. He did create name, yeah, he's a he's, an indian guy, and he did

amazing stuff with you know who offer Americans heart surgery for one tenth, the price with the best doctors. That makes enough money where he can offer medical insurance to rural Indians, zero dollars and forty five cents a month. So he plays this kind of jurisdictional arbitrage. So now he's moving to the Cayman Islands in building what are health cities ready to That's the widening the rising wave of Americans who are going to be dissatisfied with their health care and when a faster, quicker, cheaper and will fly there and I've been looking at him as a guy that seems like he understands what Sis did would be. He seems to understand the principles and he's apply I, by using real islands? and I've always fantasized. If I could talk to him and get him to like invest in the c stood, and I you know I almost peed, my pants a few months ago, where he was in the news- and he said he had the best place to have a floating hospital, would be on a ship know off the coast of a major american city give

that? We don't have that I'm going to build one in the Cayman Islands. I'm like! Oh, my god, like there's so many people thinking along these lines like if we could just we have innovations and technologies moving forward and we have regulatory structures and governments holding it back and the world can't be held back. The world has to move forward, but you don't want to overthrow men's, that's violent. You want to innovate and compete with and in Barry s governments the way you know. Singapore in in Kong in the Isle of Man have done well in a small scale. When you see the certain laws that are in place that are very restrictive and they don't make sense, and then you see states that take it's like Colorado with the medical, marijuana practices or rather legal marijuana, where they're making untold amounts of money now mean far past, with a pretty acted and now other countries are starting to look at the revenue that's being brought in hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenue

and they're saying you know what this is. Why would we avoid this? This is crazy. What what are we seeing as where is violence, we've seen a drop in violent crime, we're seeing as far as drunk driving and driving accidents, we're seeing record lows record lows as far as like traffic fatalities in drunk driving. Why You know, that's exactly what happened! Someone comes along and says: listen the laws that are in place. They don't make any sense. The the structure that's in place. It's it's antiquated its archaic and it doesn't match up with what we know all about medicine? What what we know about physiology? What we know about life? Let's change it! the seeing the benefits and now all these other states are now. First itching to medical marijuana in projecting legalize marijuana all throughout the entire country, the same sort of situation. It's it's, these archaic, very restrictive laws that don't make any sense and there's no competition because of the monopoly of government. These laws are in place, people say: well, you could vote him out. Do you know how many much

can money is spent keeping those laws in place? Do you know how many people lobby the prison Guard unions, pharmaceutical companies eccentric center, so many different companies lobby and spend millions of dollars money to keep the laws in place? If you could have one state, just one state, you know, let's say South Dakota says you know what we're not so happy with the way things were. We're going to do is we're going to open up South Dakota to a complete utopian society, we're going to just start from scratch. That is C steading once come over South Dakota and Chart tribe rebuilding society over Would you be interested in something like that? Or do you think the only way to do this is to do it in the ocean? I read My first podcast last week and I interviewed Zachary because Serwis to the club, you didn't know, welcome the pi classical yeah, the first one, the first one to in there it was a marvelous interview is a fascinating dude. He founded the start of cities Institute now

the special economic zones is actually thousands of them all over the world as places like India, the China or all yeah our it's embarrassing to be in a country? That's not performing! Well, let's create special little zones where we can start over with new rules and there's called free cities, they're called free ports. So you know, Zac has been pushing pushing in Guatemala the idea of the Morse Free cities. You can create the more innovation you can create the more well if you can create for port if they choose to move there and take the jobs at our whole. Discussion was, which is a your challenge: the the engineering challenge of building something on the sea for the challenge of working out a deal with existing governments in and asking them for a piece of their land, and some of these places have been very successful. You know she ends in the bay from Hong Kong. Give

the example that Hong Kong set China agree need to create a little special economic zone called shins, and you know, created once spectacular wealth. So now they've allowed more these experiments. So the way you know when industry isn't working is, if you have to argue about it, you know arguments, don't matter our experiments matter and the real we have to argue about. Politics is because it's not innovating and everyone is frustrated and the more star up societies. We can create the more empower innovators to come up with ideas. We haven't thought of the the best solutions always come from outside our our heads. So I a big supporter of start of cities start of cities. Our people are a big supporter of c standing and you know the best societies win. Your idea is primarily to build in the ocean and if you do build in the ocean what

what are the potential natural disaster words you have to worry about. If you have worry about waves, you do have to worry about like things like hurricanes and things like that right would you have to engineer the buildings very specifically to deal with tropical storms and things along those lines C stead's are mobile. The people that that they're sitting ducks in the face of a hurricane is anyone. That's like nailed to a to a coastal nation. These all the mega cities in the world are springing up along the coast, and many of them are susceptible to hurricanes. If you're a is dead. You know I I in the EAST coast, I was subjected to a few hurricanes, you know about them a few days before they come and then it's batten down the hatches get in the basement? You know whatever you have to do your sister. Potentially just moved out of the way as boats do so you would just I mean what are some of them. That are just massive. I mean there's there's like Katrina, I mean how many states was good yeah. How many states wide was, could

green before it was enormous, was, is enormous and I'm curious to know how much how much lead time do people have in the warning of that Mmhm we need to talk about the I have to get bigger and bigger, with see sitting big subject and The thing I want to tell you about now is: will start with the fact that hurricanes don't cross the equator, let Don't know that there's never been evidence of a hurricane crossing the equator south to north either way yeah, go along the vertical access to the equator or go above it go above the equator or go below the equator really yeah. Why is that? I don't know the Coley role is fork. I have no idea but So there's this guy, Patrick Takahashi who's, like a biochemical engineer from Hawaii in numerous people like that are pushing. Or this technology called tech, t e and it's

Klay Ocean thermal energy conversion and a Klay takes advantage of the fact that this this of a tropical ocean is very warm and one thousand feet down. It's very cold and you like a huge temperature differential which can I have a gigantic steam engine and sickly, use the ocean itself as a solar panel to you, power and ocean city or an ocean plant, as he calls it and also power land based nations of the world. We can completely replace fossil fuels with a clean, green, renewable energy of tech. Does it sound, futuristic the bill, the working one in nineteen, seventy nine during the Carter administration was part of the oil crisis and then soon after that, when oil prices fell tech, the abandoned. No more tech plants were built now.

There's a whole companies involved with building tech they're going to build one off the coast of China. Numerous island nations have commissioned Otec plants to Also, if they're close, the Bahamas is going to build two So why did I go to this? We're talking about hurricanes quality, quicker best place to build these gigantic Otec plans is on the equator. Because that's where the surface water is warmest and as a did benefit you're safe from hurricanes for the most part, so the equator itself. How wide is the equator like what's considered the equator funnel line right, yeah? It's it's it's it's! Where the you know the earth spins on its axis and it's where it's basically the earth. Spends the most time closest to the sun. You know there must be a height, though right

yeah, that's a good question. It's funny. I was just at the equator when I went to the Galapagos Islands on my little trip and I don't think there's an official width of the equator. You know I have no idea or height. It seems like there should yeah I don't know. I think it's just the line where the earths the most time closest to the sun. You or else we have seasons 'cause the earth is on a wobble. The internet says it has length no width or depth. That makes sense. It's just a very fine line with no hide it's an abstraction range, so you have to be on that line. But if you went up to high looks like the northern tip of your city get fucked by a hurricane I mean that could happen because a lot of a lot, hurricanes, are caused by you know very warm water but social, bizarre that it would not cross

yeah like starts, you know, sort of near the equator, and then it moves either n or s wow. That's so weird yeah, and I don't understand why I'm just one of those things I've been to. By there, numerous Aqua, Preneurs I've spoken to the thing that makes seasteading that shows that it's a meta idea is all the diverse people that come to seasteading with their unique solution that no one who talked about seasteading is thought of uh You know on the on the website. We have this thing called the eight great moral imperatives of seasteading in each of them. Video thing that I made to try to introduce people to the key ideas. Each videos like five minutes long and each of them features in Aquafin, or that didn't even know about the other guys. But here's about sees dating and comes to us with. I have an idea for the Sea Weed Farm, and this is how we could you know

lower the carbon acidity the ocean, and I could do this with on a massive scale and one on the block, and then we have another guy. You know one of my favorites is Neil Sims, who who who runs the the level research project. He has cages that school with the moving fish. So he literally describe this to you, the hawaiian islands, as rocks in a stream and as the ocean comes by the islands that creates little eddies behind these islands like little leaf floating around. So he's got the circular fish cages. He keeps the fish inside them, so the fish just kind of school in a circle and the cages move with the schooling fish around in a circle, and he has a gps on the cage. So the sure out there, there's no environmental or negligible measurable, unmeasurable environmental impact, the Fisher, deep sea living as if they're wild.

These are crazy ideas and but they require being out in the place where there's no government jurisdiction for the most part, I mean off the coast of hawaiian islands. There is some government jurisdiction, but we have twenty five percent of the world's surface unclaimed by existing governments, where people innovating in these unique ways to like feed. The word with sustainable sushi me on the deep oceans is the idea managing people just an archaic idea, and it is what what you're saying what you're talking about we're talking about micro, managing the the government trying to manage all these things and, in fact them up with too many regulations? Is it impossible to really regulate human behavior at a at a certain point or to really regulate special when it comes to things like innovation, when it comes to, I mean, is our regulations in fact, road blocks?

to innovation. The creativity of seven billion people is unpredictable and there's always something new coming, especially as a seastead are where people come to me and tell me about things that could you see sitting form like I had no idea. I can't believe you're telling this is very exciting, so I've had to embrace my humility that I don't understand. What's coming so People are afraid. People want regulations and rather than take a position on whether we need regulations or not, we should all agree that the way to create sound regulations is not to simply create a monopoly. That is permanent control, pull over any particular industry and rights a bunch of rules passes a bunch of laws Puccini. Being thousands and thousands of more laws, and you those those more laws, don't keep pace with Moore's law to make a pun, I mean we have Thousands 10s of thousands of regulations written in the 70s that are still constraining innovation, those people were not capable of predict, innovations that were going to come in the 21st century. So if

I want regulations, you need them as Org panic and dynamic as the industries they regulate right. But how does that work? I mean, how does anyone calculate the sort of regulations to especially an incredibly fluid and dynamic industry like the technology industry most people like say: if you trying to regulate certain aspects of cell phone development, most people just are just not qualified to understand them. They just don't know what they're talking about your talk, not something that's changing year to year. If you have you made regulations and as far as the development of cell phones back on the Motorola Startac with state of the art, and you try to apply those same innovations today with the Samsung Galaxy S5 I mean holy shit. You're, dealing with a completely different animal. One of 'em is essentially a computer that can run your whole life and check your heart rate, do all kinds of nutty shit locate. You know it's got a gps on it and I can tell you where to go

navigate you and the other one was just simply a way to call people right, and the the humility we have to embrace. Is we don't know? We don't know how to regulate the future so, if you, if you confront the fact there is no human being that can pre regulate the innovations that are happening in a decade, you you realize that the way to solve these problems is not to simply create a permanent monopoly that you know right so way more laws. Then it then it allows to go away. You need to- pick up those monopolies, you need competing jurisdictions. If sort of like, I think it is fluidly overlapping, I am I market of developing regulations on the ocean uh initiated by the industries and we see this in in lots of other industries were regulation, develop overtime from within a lot of people don't know that a lot of the things we take for

reddit, aspirin, operations, lots of heart surgeries, just came from the ground from from from doctors experimenting, so every country goes through this cycle. It's it's such a constant cycle. It's actually called what is it called Cardwell's law, there's like an official name for it that you star at what these blossoming industries? Is there some disaster that happens that causes regulation in the? of medicine is the full Phyllida might scandal the you know that happened. You know decades ago So then these regulations come in place to protect people from disasters, but by creating monopoly of regulation production, the reg patients just accumulating accumulate and none of them ever go away. So you the the bureaucracy rides on this wave of innovation and starts dragging it down. 'cause, there's just no incentive for the regulators to cut back on

regulations and you end up killing the goose that lays the golden egg. But essentially the balancing act is between safety and innovation right, but a balancing act when special and talk about things like full, full Ahmad. How do you? How do you sort of manage that? How do you manage the the balancing act of safety and innovation because in in terms of especially some untested medical procedure, like I have a friend who got a stroke from Vioxx? Was some arthritis, medication and the you know so? Young guy got a stroke. Well, pretty crazy. Let me pull it off the market. Now it's illegal and his lawsuits and all that jazz. But what do you do to ensure that one those things the most beneficial, whether it's like the most beneficial innovative technology, arises or do you know air on the side of caution

and at all costs and make sure that no one becomes a victim of some emerging idea that hasn't been vetted out yet because we have a monopoly? They are strongly in the side of the precautionary principle. So the the regulators are in an impossible position. They have no way of evaluating all the new stuff that comes online. They don't they just don't have the resources, so they to do it in consultation with the dominant industries who in probably lean them towards

no don't allow this innovation through what if a disaster happens and regulators are blamed for disasters and they don't get credit for all the innovations that come through, but on the flip side, aren't the people that are coming up with these innovations? Wouldn't they try to influence them to any regulatory body to let them slide through because he's be extremely profitable and wouldn't they say hey, you know this is all safe and maybe in fact it hasn't and how there have been a bunch of different medications that have been released onto the market. That turned. I remember, Fen Fen. Remember that yeah yeah, I remember this girl she was about. She was a pretty girl which was not thirty, plus overweight and then one time I saw her and it wasn't that long it was you know, a few months later and all sudden Jesus skinny little bombshell yeah. I was like what the fuck is going on like would you do home on Fen Fen six months later, heart problems? All these health issues she balloons up again, but I know someone,

infantile. Yes, it wasn't good yeah, but we should run. The fact, like our minds, always go to this bad story, and so we see the thalidomide baby from the 60s, but I don't see the 10s of thousands of people, hundreds of and some estimate, even more than that that have died as the result of medical innovations that are available. Often other countries are already approved that are now approve, say in the United States right. So we don't. We do you and I are not going to agree on a balancing act and impose it on the world, but we recognize that there is a cycle that it starts out being protective and then it becomes over protective and then it prevents an quashes innovation and and it's a monopoly it never innovates. It never stops writing new rules and once it's controlled by dominant interests, new p people that don't have a billion dollars or ten years to wait to get their drugs through the process, and that is the

the conservative estimate ten yeah ten years, so all sorts of new players innovating and interesting spaces like, for instance, in stem cells or not able to compete. So we don't get the innovations that they have So there should be some regulation. There should be something it shouldn't just be the market decides it shouldn't just be, you know, will let people start dying, then people stop using it, and then you know now we know you can't you can't be that right. I mean the more time goes by the more I'm impressed with the power of the market to to regulate itself, but in terms of medical things mean that people will become victim. The market will regulate itself but is are you? Are you comfortable making that that distinction I think right now we're victims of being denied the innovations that are available. Weather held up or preventing innovators from discovering new things, and you know, if

do you know the same reason you put out a product that is in poison, and you put effort into your podcasts at the beginning to assure people build a relationship with you and if you don't like it, I'm going to give you your money back. It's a kind of regulation like you're incentivized, to find a good service. If you put something out there, somebody you're in a lot of trouble, but I think people underestimate the power of that kind of market force to incentivize people to not poison their patients. I agree with you, but then, even with all the regulation in place, you still have this doctor oz type situation. You still if someone is profiting off with something that doesn't do jack shit and is on television calling it a miracle yeah, I've been waiting for doctor OZ to go down and I'd, be I'd, be curious, which came first was that was a journalist, exposing him and then

governments came in and snapped him down. I don't know what happened. I mean our idea is always that doctors, it's uh, is. It was actually a medical student that chased it down. There was a whole article about it that was on here I'll pull it up medical student, so that that, if that's true, that's an example of a market regulation that occured right, but how many people got fleeced before that happened meet the medical student who wants to bring down doctor OZ? This is the guy who his name is Benjamin Mazer and bench in Mazer is the student that saw. I guess he was watching all these different claims and he's like this is all horse shit, so he he chased it down. Yeah and Dr Oz, I mean he's a good example of the point I'm trying to make. I mean he's in a regulatory structure, is completely ensconce and he was doing wasn't stopped. It took someone

you know coming from the ground up and analyzing it himself, probably a competitor and exposing a mess, a fraud. I don't know if his career, but I'm sure you know the people reacting against him. This is a good thing, so we're scribing the essence of a market regulation right here I had has anyone from the government come in and find doctor OZ? Has he been imprisoned? Well, I know he was brought in front of Congress. Haha yeah it was. It was a big story. It was all over the news, but he was on that. What's that show the new HBO show the gentleman with glasses, John Oliver yeah yeah John Oliver did a whole piece on doctor, OZ and Doctor OZ brought in front of Congress and Doctor OZ, saying one thing on his television show and then saying completely contradictory. Doctor OZ, grilled in Congress had missed, emits weight loss products. He touts don't pass scientifiques

so we're. Looking at I mean we're looking examples of market regulation, I'm not even going to take a hard stance that we don't need any regulations by a central authority. I'm going to take a hard stance in that asking people to look at the power of these kind of things to reg itself and problem with just accumulating thousands and thousands of rules that prevent anyone from trying something new and

the situation we're in yeah I mean I'm, not a big government guy, I'm not a fan of big fan of government, but it's just the the devil's advocate position I think, has to be sort of a dressed in the sort of sit scenarios, because I think there is the potential for factory and it's like how do you protect citizens from things that they're not entirely educated? In what laws do you establish that protect people from someone victimizing someone with some sort of an unproven product? Or you know bad yeah job medicine that you know leaves people crippled. There's there's that out there yeah. How do you deal with that in this see standing world, and how do you keep you know how to keep order? Well, it's the same way. It's the same reason. I don't put out a book with you know no words in it and you don't put out a podcast with just a bunch of parts, do you see what I'm saying

yeah I mean we, we don't have monopoly control over what we do. There's other authors competing to get you to read their books. There's other podcasts competing to get me to listen to them, and I listen to you. Instead, it's not about see stating is not about here's the list of tools we're going to impose on the ocean it confronting human nature and there's his potential for fuckery people do shitty things and the way to solve that problem is not to take some of those shitty people and give them absolute power over everybody else, and then they to make everyone behave better. I think governments will evolve and in nations will occur if decentralized power among multiple people, who can only profit and be selfish by finding ways to serve and please each other and that include foods producing regulations by which we behave, that's fascinating. So what you are essentially doing is you're, providing a method for new

new civilizations to innovate, not proposing any sort of guidelines, you're, not proposing any sort of new structure for government new structure for finances. What you're doing is you sort of opening up the door and allowing a wide variety of people to come through and allow the best ideas to float to the top, yeah see stating is not about seizing power from your political opponents. It's about ceding power to your political opponents, to try their ideas elsewhere to see if they can create some, and that will surprise you and you can laugh but the fiascos, if you want, but the more experiments, the more likely we are to discover solutions, and that's that's the truth of politics. You know society is more complex than this microphone. I can't design this microphone. I think I can design society through. My political opinions and

only tool I have to do that is for so that forces me to fight over who going to control the government to force people who disagree with me to do what I want. I don't think anyone knows how to run society. I think the solutions to humanity's deepest challenges are discovered were discovered by lots of people trying lots of crazy ideas. Well, I think one of the big issues in society is what I call the quantity of very is that when you have a very small group of people, the variables are not that large and you can handle twenty people if we had a relationship with nineteen other folks and we're all living together on a you know, a large patch of land that had a good amount of natural resources where that no one had to worry about starving to death, why someone else lived high on the hog if everyone would even with distribution of natural resources. Wouldn't be that hard, it wouldn't be a lot of conflict. The real conflict

comes when you have a quantity variables, we have three hundred and fifty million people, then you have things like immigration, you have things like beyond the the stock market. You have the things like. Do you know the weird things that go down in terms of loan in terms of credit cards, and it did so there's so many variables that that's when it becomes incredibly difficult to to manage a society when no one person can be aware of all the variables the quantity variables gets outside of the realm of comprehension, yes and everything that works out well, for us? is outside the realm of comprehension. I could not possibly make this table or that water bottle over that computer. Remember that! Well, I know that dude made it something Ok! Well, I wouldn't know where to get the would I wouldn't know how to make varnish so there's no varnish! This is wrong. It's worth, I really yeah you could you could figure this out, but

I know what you're saying I wouldn't be able to meet. You wouldn't be able to make the microphone yes, so I think you make table. I couldn't make the microphone smart, dude and I appreciate how the solutions are not imposed by somebody they emerge from the kind of global ecology, of voluntary transactions that produces solutions and the more people you have trying different things more peacefully. They can compete in the market, the more likely these solutions are to emerge, and we need to up the governance, the technology of governance, just like other technologies, and we can't do that through monopoly is this something that you do full time. I do it full time involved in seasteading full time. Yes, it's the first real job. I've ever had so I've always been a writer. I tell stories I started out as a novelist. I eventually became a science writer one. I was captivated by the seasteading story,

once I met the people. I call Aqua Preneurs with all their ideas. I realize this is the most important story I could possibly tell uh. So I you know I've written the book it's going to come out next year about seasteading, but I got I became such a c Van JE list. I talked about it so much you have so many of those blue jobs see Van JE list. The newer is yeah, I'm a professional bull artist and there is in Silicon Valley, need me to sell their ship to the to the to real people. I'm so, so they kind of brought me on to the Seasteading Institute too. Talk about seasteading, I you know they were smart enough to see that I am driven by I'm passionate about it, so you know: where does your money come from? If you don't mind me asking well, I'm working for a nonprofit and I paid speaker and the nonprofit is seasteading the Seasteading Institute, which was founded by Peter Thiel and Patri Friedman, so you get paid

to evangelize see setting. Essentially I get pay need to do lot. Lots of things with regard to the nonprofit and the money comes donations. The money comes from donations, so we have a four thousand donors, Ortho people who have donated, and we have hundreds of volunteers that have gotten involved and we have probably eighty five ambassadors. I'm getting so many ambassador applications right now. I can't keep up with a lesbian in buffer yeah you you should be. You should serve on our board or something so imagine that kind of time Imagine a regular middle class person who donates money to the Seasteading institute. Yeah. I mean people get affected with this idea. They realize it rather than arguing about my political, my particular political problem. I go. And realize it's the structure itself that we just don't have the innovations we just don't have new

Chris people experimenting with new ideas. We got go deeper and hit restart on pull small governments. Micro countries on the c and discover solutions were not imagining now. Just like the you know, states discovered solutions that were not in the imaginations of Monarcas in previous centuries. So explain to me how this works like if someone says I think she's doing is a good idea. Is there a Kickstarter pages there Bob do you have a Paypal link? I mean. How does someone donate to this word? It winds up being your income. We have for a donation page on the website. Every time we send out our newsletter to our fans, we put a little donation link there. We accept Bitcoin, it's it's easy to donate to the Seasteading Institute. If that's what you want to do, if you go to the website and are inspired by it and what is the website stating dot org and you know strongly recommend, checking out the eighth grade. Moral imperatives, which is

the problems the seasteading dating students had, is that it's been very technical and it's talking to you know a dick engineers in this legal scholars. Talking about stuff and people go and they're kind of overwhelmed by the information, and they don't know where to start so. I've tried popularized the idea and create you know eight little videos explaining the basic angles from which people are approaching c, stating the song global challenges that people care about, so the eight moral imperatives you have as a video on C stating and what is it's only a minute right, each one, probably about five minutes on average. The introduction is a minute, the introduction a minute, and then you can click on any of the eight and it's it has a list of things like do. What do you? If you will me something you care about? I can tell you about it: with a that's trying to solve that problem.

Click on the link Jamie go to the a great moral imperatives and let's just play the introduction. If you are just Google, the eight great moral imperatives, it'll show up it's the first, the first link, but it's on C org, and there is a fifty three second video that will sort of sort introduced. This idea, that is, that is issue right. Moral imperatives got gotta get down past the device. Political language is talk about human values that conservatives, liberals, libertarians and anarchists and

Everyone else shares for the most part. Let's hear this when we listen to the sea, we know what our moral imperatives are feed the hungry in which the poor cure. The sick, clean the atmosphere restore the oceans live in balance with nature, our civilization sustainable. Stop. I want to tell you about it off with the news add to fill these moral imperative by building building cities on the sea. Click on the issue you care about below, and maybe we can convince you to join our growing seasteading community. What is the timeline on on implementing this sort of thing like if you had to be realistic, and you had to make an as

ten minutes? How long between now and when? There really is a floating civilization. I've been I've enjoyed when you can think about it is when do we have to get one of these things going, and I was very impressed that the open or I interviewed, like sick independently cited two thousand and fifty as a I'm were. This is what we're going to run out of fresh water. This is when we're going to run out of phosphate. This is where we're going to reach peak oil. You, whatever People say, and you know I'm not if I did judge whether twenty fifty really is a deadline for humanity. Like a pinch point in in in several key commodities, humanity needs to survive, but so say we have no choice but to find solutions to global problems by two thousand and fifty. And say I'm saying we can solve these problems by engaging the power of the sea. So that's that's the timeline.

So I think, I hope by twenty twenty we'll twenty will have a demonstration seastead the territorial waters of a host nation. If we can hire some local people, create some blue jobs, absorb coastal run off into it into algae that attract more ideas. I'm hoping! Maybe you know you can imagine twenty five. You have something on the deeper ocean. People come up with a break water, We have people contacting us right now about you can create a solid ice breakwater to to protect the city. Some ice yeah I'd have to be in a room, probably cold environment. Apparently not, apparently you can get one in the tropical oceans. I'm not even go into detail on this. I'm I'm using this an example of the fight engineers that are coming to us with ideas for how to how to do this on the ocean. So you would use solar power to power some sort of freezing element that no. I apparently.

I'll have to point you to his proposal. Would apparently ice can sit for very long time if it's solid enough in even in tropical waters, but but whatever it's just one idea, I like the tech idea using the ocean, is a solar panel to replace fossil fuels a the idea to think about ocean crops, something to think about. Seventy percent of the world's fresh water is used for agriculture. Between like a quarter and a half of all land is used for agriculture. Where we dip, the topsoil soil using up the freshwater populations are going up. We're facing a water crisis by two thousand and fifty then you think about the fact that algae props c farms require no fresh water whatsoever require no soil whatsoever and we haven't actually reached peaceful peak phosphate, we've just taken out of the soil and dumped it into the oceans. Well, what words

all these nutrients out of the oceans well algy farms. So we can park. Lot appeal: repose in park, algae farms around the dead zones off the coasts of various cities in the world absorb all that nutrient in carbon pollution turned it into in fuel over the long haul. That's just one problem. The heavy metals so mean when heavy metal is a problem things on those lines like you would. You would be feeding that people can extract the well. You can extract, apparently there's people trying things with muscles and and various natural organisms that remove these things from from There's the it's weird: how many like bacteria and small little creatures process this stuff right and people talking that we need to form on that level. We need to form of these twenty little love, so you would get some sort of organisms that take out the heavy metals and then the other organisms would eat the carbon right and turn that into fuel. Well, people

you are trying to create these cyclical little systems, they're already doing it on a small scale. You know involving muscles that that no filter feeders with this kind of fish with this kind of algae LG haven't undergone all the artificial selection that make sweet, corn and soy, so productive and yet allergies a lot healthier. And a lot of people react and they say Algy. I want to eat that Most people don't know that LG is already in most of the foods we eat it. It's fertilizer that nourishes the land crops. We use it's in Spaced, it's in beer, it's an ice cream, a gene in agar, even how to pronounce all these aspects, and then she well, let's see what is it's huge and it's very healthy and it's very healthy. It has it's, probably the healthiest plant in the world, it has all the amino acids depending species has

fiber. You know fished synthesize their own a mega threes, they get it by eating allergy. And when you consider that you know corn This tiny little ugly thing that no one wanted to eat. Wheat is this: if you should someone a weed stock that say, I don't want to eat that, but you a few generations of artists, official selection, you can create all this marvelous stuff we eat. We can do the same thing with with algae were already using in our foods, and you know the bill and Melinda Gates Foundation help the recorder do live the founder of the sea, gardens project he's big on creating. He was to create c forms on the sea. He next, seaweed. Flour with wheat flour get to the developing world. A lot from malnutrition among those people, there's so many ways you can use the help your plants at the sea to feed people and-

and you don't need to use fresh water- a lot of people say agriculture needs to be aquaculture and we can give. You know can't specter the song, the songbirds, that's funny, that's it. It's a fascinating idea, the idea, the setting and it's it's also fascinating- to try to reverse the process that we've already begun as far as destroying the oceans. As far as the amount of pollution that were leaking into the oceans of that can actually be. Benefit. Some life forms in some sort of way and then we could sort of turn that background and and and get something out of it. In that way, I mean allergies, been the keystone of the global carbon cycle. You know for three and a half billion years. You know it. It knows what it's doing and we've been working against the carbon cycle and just like screw up the whole planet. We can

it we'll bak around. If we base our food on on the ocean, I read something about dumping: scrap iron into the ocean to re oxen, J oxygenate the ocean, because dumping scrap iron to the ocean. It would serve as a base for allergy to start growing on, and yes, so Patrick Takahashi and others proposed that for the tech supported plant ships, you might have to cede some iron. I mean this way. This have to be tweaked and when we get to this level of detail, I just refer you to the experts were talking about it and we never know what's going to work, you know all these Thinking about these ideas experimenting with them on a small scale. All this hope hope stuff is going on like what you just described. The ideas we need to open up this frontier, we'll to experiment on. We need to allow the ocean to to let's civilization, we need to base civilization on the ocean, because the fact that so much of it is such a resource,

the ocean, you know most of the oxygen comes from the ocean. Life comes from the ocean. Most of the oxygen comes in the ocean as far as like like in life, I don't latency for sleep, see, we've been yeah things on a map. Yeah, I mean seaweed Weed Forest make the world's rainforests. Look like potted plants, that's what I was when you consider like the amount of carbon. They store the amount of you they produce yeah wow yeah. I always assumed it was just forests. It's mostly ocean crops that keep the world in balance and the more the more you forest, the ocean with say, seaweed crops, the more carbon build their by have to pull this carbon and nutrient out of the water which lower the acidity the ocean, which is exactly what we need to do. The more when you pull out of the ocean, the more

carbon the oceans pulls out of the air. You could reverse the whole carbon problem by just creating massive seaweed farms on the ocean. The people have cal about how much you would need an be this, this state of the size of this country, and nobody really knows, but the fact is, if we start wrapping this up, we could you know soy, corn, wheat, it's not that not as healthy as like. Like wheat, bread. It isn't it amazing when you see issues that pop up technological issues, whether it's a you know, pollution or what have you and then Did these innovations come along to try to deal with the solutions or to try to create a solution for these issues, and it seems like that's one of the things that people do

they seem. It seems that people need to be in the face of some sort of a problem to solve in order to truly innovate, and when you think of this, oh tech thing- and this oh tech thing happened during the Carter Administration, when the gas problems were at the peak. For that time changed the motor industry, the automotive industry was forced to make much more fuel efficient cars. Compact cars all came out of that in a before the american cars, these big v10 pigs, yeah and then all the sudden. We had an issue, and then innovation springs from that issue. You look at all the things that's going on today, like. There's a young man who invented some sort of LISA Theoretical designed to clean up the plastic patch In the middle of the Pacific, garbage patch boy and slash, I think it's his name. I don't know his name, but in amazing idea that, in a short amount of time would be able to filter out all that plastic and then perhaps that plastic could be reused. Perfect, perfect idea,

so the seasonings to gets proposals about how to clean up the great garbage patch right and as a generalist who tries to put this all together someone described an expert is someone who can describe to you in great detail why something can't be done. So I humble humbled, often by experts that describe well, that's never going to work. It's too hard to build a permanent structure on the high seas and here's all the reasons why I look at all this. Turn language? I use that intimidates you into thinking, I'm right and then a year, half. Later I find out shell prelude is building the fucking thing on the ocean, so things out of work, So Bland's slat is an example of this, so he designed this system to basically clean up the which patch the great art there. This is the system and he had a huge TED talk that you know, went viral and went all over the world that was so remarkable about. Him is the only nineteen years old after a few months. Huge backlash, people

new, better started, criticizing them and saying it is nobody's talking about it. People fall for these stupid ideas and I'm it's kind of embarrassing. I'm glad I didn't like feature too much. I guess he is just a kid who doesn't know what he's talking about so he rose to the challenge. He got some funding he's out there on the water experimenting and now backslash has backlash. Now people are saying: oh, it is going to work we grab this up and clean the great garbage patch and guess what no he knows, we don't know, all we know is he's proposed this thing. It's attracting a lot of brains to the problem. People are inspired to get it done. There's a backlash the back people were shown to be. It was an experiment on the water that they were mistaken, so he went out and did a small scale of this and he was able to clean up some stuff. So if we scale this up, will it work? Look it cause another problem that won't work is it it could even be a terrible idea, but by

galvanizing and being a lightning rod for this problem. It attracts new, innovative minds to update his solution and find the real solution. This is how the X prize works. One of the biggest shoes with human civilization in regards to the oceans, overfishing, fish, a huge huge issue. What ideas have been proposed? That makes sense that you are aware of that deal with that. Well, I spoke about Neil Sims in the Villa research project a moment ago and I'm and I'm not doing justice to to to what he's doing so more fish cages Blair is the line between fish farming and wild fish, so fish farming gets a bad rap, because you know fish farms, they're bolted to the coasts. The swim in their own poop. The go anywhere, they're, not living normal lives. Then you have to have you I'll silence and all this stuff, so he's just

wireless rethink. What fish farming is any takes it out, the deep it's below the water. You can't even see it. The the ages float around in eighties behind giant islands the fish around in there and there fish is healthy. It has no mercury. It's higher omega three content in the wild version of that fish. It's a totally you kind of FISH Kona come higher in omega than the wild fish, because a the fish live better on the deep sea when they're like fed by Hume periodically like the wild wild. I have no idea what are they feeding him they're, feeding him a mix of fish meal and soy and then finishing it off with fish meal at the end, and so she me guys a guy named Wong in in Hawaii are declaring you know great, so they've had ten

These tests with his fish were the experts can't tell the difference between farm fish, and wild fish, so if this becomes profitable you're talking about creating huge numbers of fish on the oceans and in the problem is, is that we treat the oceans like a giant commons and we're like Hunter gatherers out there. Exterminating them were not farming. Fish you know Hunter gatherers. Sapiens, left Africa and just exterminated all the megafauna on every continent. You know hun king fish is not the way to go. We prove that with bisons mastodons even ducks. The way to increase. The bio mass of the oceans is the way we've increased. The bio mass of the land, which is to farm animals and Neil Sims, is trying to do this in a humane way. Well, what was done with by senses. Lack of regulation what's been done with other animals game animals in this country is left more deer in this country right now, then, were there when Columbo,

ended? There's there's a way to manage wildlife, there's a way to manage certain amount of animals. The problem is: if everyone was hunting, there will be no more wild animals, the reality of wild animals is there's not enough. Wild animals in relationship to the amount of people are here is three hundred and fifty million Americans. They would require a lot of wild animals. If that's all we ate there's a way, though, to regulate and the problem, I think This is LISA has been understood, as it's been explained to me is that with fish you're dealing with international waters in dealing with a bunch of different nations- and they have an issue with the japanese cruise that won't stop wailing.

They wail under the false pretense of doing research, scientific research and then sell the whale carcasses, and these there's these boats that the sea shepherds have attacked and have shown like time and time again like these guys are fucking wailing they're not doing any experiments, they're not doing scientific research, but that's the loop. The loopholes that these Japanese both can still kill whales. As long as it's for quote, unquote: scientific research, so they're just killing whales. So the oceans should not be a wild west, it should be civilization should be apart of civilization right, but if there's seven I mean people that want fish. We have no choice but to farm fish right, it's like in a billion people get their main sustenance from fish and the is going to go up. I mean Lockheed Martin is actually funding. Neil Sims is experiments

is like the copper industry in all these different players are coming in 'cause. They see the future of food is in aquaculture. I mean a lot of this. Is we we have no choice? It's like we. You know over the last one hundred and fifty years or century of exterminated like ninety percent of the fish in the oceans, it's like either. We turn that around and we're going to have. Hunger is the the way that they can somehow another re populate the wild populations of these fish like tuna, drastically reduced. Did you CJ? dreams of sushi no documentary fascinating documentary, one of the sad aspects of it as he talked about what it used to be like it's, it's about a guy who's been doing sushi forever, and it's all about his obsession

with creating the perfect dishes and really interest. Maybe I did see that is. Is it said, and it's it's just about this one sushi chef. I don't. I watch out my wife. We as Maras yeah, fascinating right. The old man in Tokyo and in the subway station is a very small place. I thought it was so well. My my for me to watch my normal watching for can guide makes or she is yeah and then more and more people told me it's not about that. You got to see, you know check it out. Yeah watch it, but the saddest thing is like the showing photos of the fish markets from the nineteen fifties and sixties, and they were just fish everywhere and he would just talk about the wide variety in the large numbers. Enormous tuna were everywhere, which is insane, and now it's one tenth of that yeah and and and Neil Sims refers to himself as a as a passionate environmentalist and he went back and read about fish populations in in the world. You know he's a great fish kind of swordfish lover, and when he talks

but fishy salaries he so excited about how they behave and what they do and and yeah, you like you, can hear the pain in his voice. When he talks about what the fish population we're like in nineteen twenty and we can to long ago yeah and we can keep treating the oceans like a toilet and like a thing where we can just hunt's which fish is, we want the fisheries have to be managed. Fish farms can help with that and we have to re populate the oceans with fish, not just farmed fish, but wild fish like that was what the question was. Do you know of any methods that are being contemplated for re population re populating the wild? The only way it would work is if it's profitable to have lots of wild fish. So true and then you would also have to stop certain people from different nations. You'd have to have some sort of an agreement with fishermen everywhere. And people don't don't realize the ocean,

already, you know It's like the United Nations LAW of the sea. Is that there's all these legal frameworks that already operate on the ocean and allow people to interact with each other and there's, you know all overlap in the jurisdictions and it mostly gets worked out and it's the oceans is, you know, sort of analyzed and it's ready for the next layer of legal evolution, which I think is stewards of the ocean I think I think we're ready for a kind of new evolution in market based evolution on the water mark. Based regulation on the water and sovereign nations market based, but the prob. That's how people feed their families make their profit run their business. They run their business by pulling fish out of the water. You would have to tell them you're going to make less money, yeah po in less fish right and that's hard to do yeah and Sims tells a story about trying to work with poor fishermen in the cook. Islands

how there's just an incentive for for everyone to just take as much fish is. They can add to the commons. And- and so it's like With- I don't- grab the fish, the other guys, I'm competing with we'll go grab the, and you can say yes, but will need more fish for next year if You kill the mall. Now we won't have any fish next season. You know so have to have rules, but then the complex reasons why people behave follow the rules and why they don't and the problem with it. Is being a commons or every competing to get fish out, everyone has an incentive to cheat. So what? What is the means by which you get people to cooperate to preserve the fish long term, resources have to be managed or they go away. The present way were dealing with the oceans is, OB, not working right? We would have to make some sort of an agreement worldwide, and that seems to me to be one of the most difficult aspects of trying to fix the whole part of the whole problem. I think so. I bet bye

It's it's got to be worked out, otherwise we'll run into fish yeah. Now hope they don't run on a fish first and then say what do we do? You know? How do we fix this right? I mean even in areas where they have brought back certain animals, animals that were on the verge of extinction. Still have to worry about poaching and still an issue all throughout Africa with a lot of endangered species. Obviously we know about this with the rhino that, even to Day, even though all the knowledge that everyone knows, the rhinos are dying off, there's still poaching yeah. I was reading a reason. Explanation lately about elephants in Africa and they were contrasting Kenya nation Next to it, I forget what it is, and you know in. In one country, the populations of elephants went up in another country, population of elephants went down and it was kind of counter intuitive, and

you know the the place with a population of elephants went down was where there was just like a government monopoly controlling, which was, you could easily corrupted the place where populations went up and when it was sort of pseudo public, but also currently owned, it sell a certain amount of poaching where it become somebody's cash cow to have elephants there 'cause you can't just protect elephants and allow the populations to grow as much as you want. So I mean we can drill down and discuss how regulations can evolve to increase populations of wild animals in a manageable way uh, but you and I don't need to settle it now. The fact is, we need more solutions Africa, is a very interesting analogy. It's it's very interesting to compare what they've done with wild animals in Africa to what what needs to be done in

ocean, because there were many animals in Africa that were on the verge of extinction and now are quite quite common, but they are quite common in these high fence operations where they, right. It's really weird, like the populations of boo, and on a lot of animals that were almost in danger just a few decades ago, and now there's many of them like in the highest numbers they've ever recorded in Africa and some of the species but they're in these high fence operations and that's a weird sort of a contradictory situation when they've become manageable, profitable. They've become a resource yeah, they become a resource that you can manage and once that happens, that's when their populations go up, but then every is like, but no there hunting them. Yes, but there's more of them, but they're killing them. Yes, but there's more of them to kill

right. Okay, it's not as a is all weird line there and again it's it's. The superstition that I, as a sister most trying to get around the way you solve a problem is to create a monopoly of nice, be bull. Who will make everyone else, be good, we're talking about the same thing, so some of the often populations that are controlled by Say, a government monopoly and nothing else, those popular keep going down. 'cause, there's! No, when really incentivized, to protect against poaching, and you can. If you, if you work for that monopoly, you essentially have ownership over this. So there's all sorts of reasons to take pay offs and bribes there. The problem, with the elephants interact with people and elephants are dangerous and elephants knocked down trees. You know, elephants will, will attack people and and in these other places in Africa, where I guess you describe them as high fence operations, you make it so that a stable elephant population is profitable to the people who live there. So they say,

Alright, we'll have like five percent will let people poach for a high number well, not poaching, legal, legal. I shouldn't signatory pay like fifty thousand dollars and they go kill an elephant. It's kind of fucking crazy, yeah But then the people in charge of that are like. Okay, now I mean there's: either elephants are hunted or elephants become overpopulated, so there has to be a way that these populations are managed. It snow just a simple matter of Illegalizing Lee, all the killing of elephants, and this is the hard thing for people to get their minds around the hard thing for people to get their minds around who love animals? Yes, if you really truly want these animals to have large populations, you have to manage those populations and that's not something that anybody wants to hear. Yeah and I love animals and my wife is an animal fanatic and if we care about animals, Newt exist. We have to confront the fact that you don't just protect them and allow their populations to exponentially

grow until they starve or come in contact with villages in and kill people what we have in California. With this this, the government has outlawed in California killing of a lot of predators that are in large populations. Now, like most particularly mountain lions. There's a large population of Mount lines in California. Now and subsequently, the deer population is dwindled. They've dropped Stan Cially and there's a place that I go to call to hone ranch on one water hole. They have a trail camera, that's photograph. Sixteen different mountain lines, I mean that's fucking, crazy, that's sixteen different animals that are killing something virtually every day. Every day sixteen different

mean killing machines may mount line is a machine. They kill pigs, deer Elk, whatever they can get a hold of and they're just decimating the deer population decimating. You know what any any any game and all that and get a hold of, and it's illegal to, hunt them and it's not regulated it's not it's not being managed. It's not being managed correctly. One of the reason is because public opinion public opinion based on ignorance. They think. Oh, these asshole hunters want to kill mountain lions. Well, no, but you have to and as the populations of all these animals, if we're going to be stewards of the land in the end, they all need to be kept in check and they all need to be monitored, and it's not being done with the specific predators. Just because of what I believe is ignorant public opinion, and I agree with you and what people are working so hard to do with elephants and mountain lions needs to be done with fish on a map have scales the massive scale, yeah bring it back to

What I care it should be a huge part of you, the like it should be a huge part of what we planned for plan. As far as like looking towards the future mean what it. What percentage of our diet is based on seafood, it's going to be enormous, huge percentage, and we don't even realize that when we eat some broccoli or we eat, you know a cow that that the many of the crops that you know the cow eat or that came from the problem- came from algae fertilizers. If fuel feed and food, or very largely supported by ocean crops, do you live by the ocean? I live yes, I do. You know Shin freak. You know like one of those dudes out there, I'm an ocean freak. Yes, this was this a part of your life always or is this something that sort of developed? I I I I love the outdoors I was girl scout.

I love for us as well. I do love being on the ocean. I think I'd like to live on the ocean. I think the first you know get a good seastead going on considered living there, but yeah I'm having a backyard sure I was just on a boat, for ten days or something. A few weeks ago in the Galapagos Islands and ban sitting on a boat and looking out at the sea want to talk about contemplation relaxation you know some nice breathing doesn't any discipline. It just happens. You know the human mind I feel like it's meant to stare at fire and water and sky mountains in a good place.

Strangers like these, but it's essentially art work. That's designed by the universe. You know the thing that people love about artwork. Is you get to look at something like that boot that boot over there you look at and go wow. That's a man, that's really cool excellent built, and that's so cool workouts may make them what what a mountain is essentially the most incredible artwork ever, but it's completely natural. It's there all the time and no one can own it. You can move move around, it look at it from different angles, but it's essentially just like our work. It gives you the same feeling that you get when you look at a beautiful painting but magnified tenfold, one thousand fold. I think so I mean we were being in a place in Colorado, my wife and I and I spent hours staring at a big mountain like it was a tv. That's deep in me. It was just We believe the comfort I got from sitting on the porch and just looking at this magnificent thing in Colorado. So I don't know, that's just a primal thing and I think the oceans meant it affect

every time, I'm on the water and I'm just looking at the sky. Look at the water. I feel like wow, I'm and into a better person. Just by sitting here yeah, I have a friend who was a beach house and we sometimes go to hang out with their place and when we go there, it's just amazing how everything just sort of. Ah you sit there. Looking at the water splashing up in some rocks and everybody's just chilled out, it's almost like it has some sort of a tranquilizing effect on everyone found. It mean beach. Communities are notoriously relaxed. The last time you were in a really hectic beach community, essentially don't exist and you know, there's always island paradises with. Like people tell you it's just super mellow people Hawaii Mean Hawaii. There's out of fights in Hawaii, but you're also dealing with polynesian people some of the greatest warriors throughout civilization, so gangster that they got on these little fucking

news and travel thousands of miles across the ocean. I mean there. This is very aggressive people, but still cool and pretty chilled out for the most part yeah, I'm thinking about like little islands like the Seychelles Islands and the people who live there. I've never been to these places, but I'm told by p who go there. That is just like everyone is chill and calm, and it might be because they're just looking at water all the time yeah and looking at the vastness of the ocean, which sort of falls in the case of any ideas that you have any delusions of grandeur any you know you start looking at your life, what's important what I need to do. I need to get this done and this deal needs to be made, and then you look at all the ocean like actually in the greater spectrum. You know, if you look at it in perspective like come on you just a little blip little tiny little thing out there and just maybe just enjoy a bit more yeah. We we we evolved from the ocean. In the end, we have to complete the cycle and get back to get back to the ocean and become a homo aquaticus.

Something homo is another when you gonna going in there. I just I just cleaned that. Just now have you ever I have read the the theory about the aquatic ape. Yes, I read a chapter about it in the book. The the aquatic ape hypothesis. Would you think about that? Well, the planets? people don't know what it means. Well, it's this in candy fact that human beings, what makes us different from other large apes end primates, is that we share all these qualities of marine mammals that only occur among marine mammals and it includes a sub a he is fat. But chip stores all is fat between his organs. We have it just beneath our skin, just like a manatee or something we have all, Every breath control we can. We can jump in the water and swim around the diving reflex, which others have you know if you dive automatic, shut off your nose and all this sort of stuff falls in the water drown in mere minutes. You know work comfortable and water were hairless most,

mammals that are hairless are aquatic mammals uh, and you start list the more you list all these qualities. People are like my god, we went through a stage where we were like aquatic apes. That's what made humans different and it's one of I think the aquatic ape hypothesis is an excellent example of the difference between a hypothesis and a theory. What it has going for it is tremendous explanatory power we don't have Hard evidence like a webbed hominid foot by the way seven percent, I think of human beings- are born with webbed toes as one of the things people don't know: Waht yeah, seven percent see if that still true is true. When I wrote my bow look it up. So what I was researching this whatever six or eight years ago, yeah that was true, Play excited that the reference web toes

So then you think about it. You take a Ranga, Tang Baby, throw it into the water. It's good rounds, fast, you take a human baby, throw it into the water. It knows how to this breath. It wait. So it comes to the surface and then it naturally floats and kicks its feet. So this All this weird like. Where did we get all these qualities? It's actually one in two thousand to two thousand five hundred live births. Well, that's close enough yeah! Well, it's pretty small, it's one in two thousand and one and seven seven percent. What do you stickler for yeah? I'm a stickler for fax, I'm crazy, but it still is it's interesting that it I mean even that one in two thousand, it's fairly common. I won It was one in two thousand, that's more like a weird Manam anomaly. If it's something that's way, common, like one percent. That could be something you know: atavist idk like the append,

something less right right right. What the other things about the aquatic ape theory that are compelling. I, some, I should be uh, oh even large brains, the mammals with the largest brains are mostly in relation to the rest of their body or mostly aquatic animals, apparently dolphins, whales, orcas also that were were involved. No process and use you know fish fats really efficiently really really well like. Why is that true All I know is the aquatic ape proponents, keep lining up all these things and in some cases the only animals that have these things in common? Are you know aquatic mammals and humans, so it and it has to do with big. The main ones are like hairlessness and subcutaneous fat. What are the country with the arguments against US

It's against it are. We have not found a single fossil that would that would support this this type office. So that's? Why remains officially a hypothesis? Not a actual theory, muscles are really hard, though that's the difference between you know. One of things about fossils. This is something has to happen in order to create a fossil. For the most part, most people that die your body is going to be absorbed by the animals. The biology by bacteria by rodents, scavengers they'll, be nothing left. It has to some just to happen. You have to be trapped in a mudslide volcano whatever it is, it's like covers you with something that preserves you yeah. I think the chapter Aqua Ape that I wrote for that book available online and people can go check it out, and I think I'm going to to. I could not now to research the seven percent thing and then have to update that yeah have to and but It is a fascinating thing, though, the the idea that

the reason why people are so different and why we like, if you take a baby and throw a baby in the water, the immediately know the hold their breath. It's it's instinctive. It is weird like why do we have all these weird quality MIA and then also the fat thing that if you you take a champ like little baby chimps are hard hard, little muscle thing: yeah, baby, baby, sitters, floaty little suckers there floaty, yeah Bill does all this fat, this fat, and then you know if in a ranking, ten gets really fat. You you don't go and squeeze fat outside of its body mmhm. You know we store all this fat outside or organs. You know in our in our beneath her skin the Serbs subcutaneous, they call it and that's a good the quality of aquatic mammals. It's it is weird that we have all these qualities, but there's no there's just no hard evidence is the thing. So it's. In this massive attraction to the odd to the ocean- and you don't see a bunch of baboons now out there staring at the ocean yeah

all communities are found, and you know next to oceans, we love the water yeah, it's stuff, the aquatic ape look at other. Very interesting, listen man! This is a great podcast. I really enjoy this very much standing subject. I think I think is massive potential for all this, and I think that it's really cool that you are investing so much time it so much energy into promoting these. The- and I hope anybody listening to this explores further. You know go to see steading dot, org and check website and see what they have to offer and seasteading just seasteading on on twitter? What is the the Twitter handle the CZ institute. Yes, that is of Seasteading Institute on Twitter thanks man. Thanks had a great time lot of fun yeah. I appreciate it. Is there any else you want to direct people to or tell people about,

go to the Seasteading Institute, check out or our floating city survey. Let us know what you'd like to see in a floating city we donation page there read up on stuff. We are working on the floating city project and we'd like you to check it out and see if you think it's realistic and if you'd like to move their glory. Yes, thank you, Sir appreciate it. Man, okay, but we brought to you this week by square space. Thank you to our sponsors. Go to squarespace dot com use the code word Joe and save ten percent off your first purchases. Thank you all so to blue apron blue apron, a excellent way to get meals delivered to your house that you can cook easily with detailed instructions go to Blueapron dot com, Slash Rogan and get two free meals. Just going to Blueapron dot com forward, Slash Josh Rogan, I use Usm. I recommend them. Thanks also

on dot com, go to and and use the code word Rogan and save ten percent off any and all supplements lots more podcast. Coming. Week, rich Vos is here on Wednesday. Stefan Molyneux will be here on Thursday lots more stuff thanks. Everybody take care, big, kiss.