« The Joe Rogan Experience

#694 - Jane McGonigal

2015-09-08 | 🔗
Jane McGonigal is a game designer and author who advocates the use of mobile and digital technology to channel positive attitudes and collaboration in a real world context. Her new book SUPERBETTER is available September 15, 2015.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
hello friends this episode of the podcast and all of 'em are fueled by caveman coffee company i'm drinking right now and i want to hear it ah that's why like that all the time uh yang caveman coffee co dot com go there liberate single origin single family coffee from my good friend tait fletcher and his amigos at take caveman coffee we got a lot of sponsors i got a bank through this episode is brought you by me undies i'm wearing right now they're my favorite underwear i wear everyday i don't even wear regular underwear anymore the only time i wear regular underwear anymore is if i'm what me undies i'm never out of monday so i don't wear regular underwear it's fucking lodge i'm dropping science they made from
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everyone of these mother fucking podcast it's one of the most important things in my life right here that's alpha brain take that shit before i do anything that i really care about including no i'm going to say something rude what i on it is is a total human optimization website what our goal is and what we we aim to do is to provide people with all of the tools to get your together all of the supplements all of the strength and conditioning equipment the inspiration the motivation from the on it academy link fucking ton of cool shit that we sell to really to mention in one podcast but if you go to onnit dot com you will get a an idea of what we're all in a big way we have the coolest fucking kettle bells on the planet earth there's a whole series of 'em the primal bells is all the great apes and bigfoot legend bells which is cyclops werewolf and heart bn zombie bells if you're into the new walking dead especially the new one the new one is actually better than the old one fuck
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and playing games to improve the effects of a can kush and that she suffered she's a game developer super into vision and a very interesting woman and i really really enjoyed talking to her her book is coming out next week you can pre order it now but after talking to are you're going to really appreciate what you went through what this book is all about so without any further ado please welcome jane mcgonigal the joe rogan experience trying my day joe rogan podcast by night all day all right jane what's happening and he you are here you made it home excited too thanks for doing that appreciate it so your stories are very fascinating story you got a brain injury an you decided to make a game to help your brain recover now what led
you to even attempt something like that i've never heard of anything like that in the past well i had been designing games professionally and researching them for ten years by the time i hit my head and it was not my first instinct oh i have a brain injury let me make a game but you know a month into the recovery i wasn't getting any better i was really depressed and anxious and i mean i was it was like the lowest point of my life and i knew from my research that when we play games you know we have more optimism were more determined group better able to ask people for help right to team up with this be your allies and i just figured well this is like the worst i've ever felt my life maybe if i can bring some of that game full spirit to recovery i could kind of jump start my brain back into healing so what was the nature of your injury
i mean it was it started out as just a normal concussion and how did you get that so this is my public service and really episode i was standing up from underneath an open cabinet and i'm a runner safe really strong legs and i was just in a hurry and i'm just full force right up into the corner of the cabinet hit my head it was like classic you know my husband was joking around you know who's the president and i can remember who the president was and it's like oh that that really mad yeah i like you got hit in the head you couldn't remember this is brock obama they was an all i could remember was it's not george bush anymore i can't remember who it was wow so just standing up and hitting the edge of the cabinet was an open open cat was entering cabinet so this is the psa is you know shot cabinet doors because apparently now i've now learned after this happened to me that this happens to a lot of people and you can get at a serious head injury as like a football player by doing this
ow wow so just standing up so stood up quick ban blocked your head can't go unconscious i did not go unconscious scene i was sol stars and everything but it you know a lot of concussions it takes a few hours the brain starts to swell and it's not until later that day that you really start to feel like something really wrong so is that what happened here yes yeah and and you know what it was there's no internal bleeding or anything and so you know the doctor said you'll be fine and you know give it a week maybe a couple weeks i come back after a month they tell me you know some people if it doesn't heal in the first month it takes three months and if it doesn't heal and
once it might be a year and if it's not a year maybe you're stuck like this forever were you experiencing the classic symptoms like you couldn't like stare at the sun the sun might would bother your eyes loud noises i mean all light like if i i i i would try to go into like a of whole foods of price and lights would feel like i was like under fire from weapons i mean i couldn't i was i was in bed basically for three months everything like all stimulus would make me nauseous and migraines and everything so it was it so it started out normal concussion but then it's kind of unraveled into what they call post concussion syndrome which is which is i think that i didn't know existed but a lot of people and the concussions take up to a year to heal yeah they can well i from working for the u of c i've seen people that neglect those yes and it gets really ugly yeah i also see people that were great fighters there's
dining tj grant who was in line for ufc title shot got a concussion not even from getting kicked or punched it was from grappling exchange just bumped his head on something i will if somebody's knee or someone's hip or something like that and then was never the same again and is never fall again and it sounded like i think almost two years yeah and i mean that's something i've gotten actually pretty active in the reef community and trying to share information with the first week of recovery really determine if you're going to go into this extended nursing take you three months six months a year if you're not if you're not resting the first week
i called you just do nothing i mean they call it cognitive rest and basically you want to not do anything that is feels difficult for you and so for me i couldn't read i could only watch tv shows that already seen before 'cause having to process plot gnuplot was not was not helpful that's what we watching buffy the vampire slayer because of all the chameleon times and it's it's a and yet you know keep the lights off if they keep sunglasses on indoors but the first forty and then after that the first week if you can avoid over stressing your brain you have a much better chance to recover within the one to two
period as possible yeah and people don't know people that they try to i try to go right back to work i was in the middle of writing my first book and it was due in a couple months i'm like i can't miss my deadline i've got to do this i got part them it could barely i'm like can we see the screen on it but you're when you're you know when you have a concussion you're not thinking clearly you are not a rational person you're just you just have to do is i have to try and people look at you and be like what's wrong with you you are you know totally out of it why are you trying to work but you're not you don't have that same kind of rational decision making ability so sometimes you know friend are you know a loved one needs to take you aside and say i'm not letting you do anything for this first week you've just got to let your and this is correcting from wrong but it's relatively new our understanding of what takes place after concussion and what you have to do to recover
yeah i know there's just last year was a big study that came out showing that four months after concussion your your brain is still different they're still that's like a kind of a scarring that happens our guests gap that certain parts of the brain will still be the second four months after even if you think you're feeling fine which means that you're still vulnerable you know if you were to get hit again it would be more dangerous and and if you're still feeling symptoms after four months you know that's why it's like when you you know cut yourself open it you get the scab you can't be picking up the scab by doing things that are triggering your symptoms yeah while so who was it that told you you got to settle down out well my you know my doctor said that of course i'm i mean i'm a science geek that's i've a phd it's like my background as having my husband can google to google scholar searches for dramatic brain injury research because i couldn't use a computer it's like you got
figure is this normal and like i said feeling suicidal that was that was new for me and i'm like literally having him google suicidal thoughts jeez concussion because i'm like is this am i really suicidal like in my rationally thinking i'm never going to work again and my husband got to take care of me i should just end it which is what i was some of the voices in my head were saying but it didn't feel you know it's that didn't feel myself and so fortunately he was finding articles like wait one in three people with a concussion have suicidal thoughts and that is actually a reaction to the neurochemistry when you have a concussion you don't have dopamine in the reward pathway reward pathways which means your brain can't anticipate anything good in the future you become like completely unable imagine that you'll feel better that good things will happen for you and that's just like perfect neurochemical foundation for
so you were able to remember how you used to think and so you knew this is not the way i think yeah i mean it was i had i had like a i was able to distance myself a little bit from the thoughts where you know i would say i would you know because i was at home i wasn't going where i would say my husband's like i feel like i have this for you set saying you should kill yourself and i would i would talk about it because i didn't it i mean i think if you talk about it it it becomes less you know this feeling that you have that you have to really believe in and more like this thing that you can look at and try to figure out and and that and so was like it just felt so
weird to me because i'm like why would i don't know i've never i never had that before and once they knew that it was a symptom of concussion rather than jane has figured out that her life is terrible and logically she wants to kill herself i was able to live with that and you know the research literature says they go away as a brain heals so i just thought okay it might still might still hear that voice for you know a few weeks or a few months but i know that that
a symptom of healing and not have actually feels so i'm just gonna get on with it now is there a medication that you can take what this is going on anything that speeds up the healing or anti inflammation medication right so this is this is what's so hard about post concussion syndrome is there's nothing that's been shown to speed it up i mean i was offered really powerful anti anxiety meds depression mads i chose not to take them because i just didn't want to go down that road but i've never taken them before and there's no known therapies people have tried to do like oxygen deep oxygen therapy and like hyperbaric chambers yeah did you try any i did not try that but actually this is a sort of very exciting for me because there's no
good treatment for this when my game works so well for me and i saw other peoples are using it worked well for them we were able to get a grant from the n i h to texas with young athletes their highest university medical research center we just release our findings last week that the game that i invented did improve the post concussion syndrome isn't a hundred percent of the people who used it compared to only fifty percent of people who didn't don black so this is one of i mean this is one of the first validated treatments that can you know reduce the headaches and the knowledge of in the confusion in the you know difficulty so how did you get to the point where you wanted to experiment with the game your recover slowly mean slow is this taking like how many months afterwards we still kind of well this thirty four days which i will i will never i don't like it it was emblazoned into my memory
thirty four days after i hit my head that i was i mean i was completely desperate i'm at i literally was saying to myself i'm gonna kill myself or i'm going to turn this into a game because i mean those two options so strange i know but you might be the in history that's ever said that so much warmer turns into again yes yes well you know as i was in the middle of writing my first book which was all about the psychology of games and i just thought to myself i should i got to prove it you know i i in this book saying that playing games makes us happier stronger and more resilient i think i this i mean there's all other kinds of proof in the book but i'm like i'm going to live it and and that was just i just i didn't know how else to provoke the positive emotions and when we play games and his whole list of positive emotions that we feel when we play games like curiosity and excitement and all and wonder
pride and she's like i got to get some of these emotions because my doctor had said the more depressed and anxious you are they can actually slow down the healing process is actually detrimental fate if you if you fuel if you can feed the fresh anxiety detrimental in in terms of measurable effects or detrimental in terms of the way you feel like that is that the from the brain's ability to heal that the neurochemistry of depression is not conducive to that so literally being depressed can slow down the physical healing of the brain itself yes and no answers to the like you know so try not to worry i'm like oh jeez i know it's like i can't get out of bed my books do i can right my husband had lost his job a few months earlier and i'm like i may never work and i'm going to be like a police state now this is like and maybe if i can stand you know right yeah
so so the thirty four days yeah what is the thirty four days were when i was at its worse is that i just i mean it just everyone kept saying oh you'll be fine in a few days so we find in a few weeks and then i went and saw my doctor after thirty days and then the doctor said oh yeah by the way some people don't get better in a month those people it often takes three months and for people who don't get dirty mind center often takes a year and if you're not better year than might be like this forever and i was alone oh my god it just it made me kind of freaked me out so did you fix paramount with things during this time like when your reach searching i mean the only thing that i really experiment with with this tiny eat things with like make as you make it for you may get sick which is supposed to be good for
for brain healing and there is some scientific literature on that where i mean doctors will say eat walnuts you know donna yeah because that's a good like as it's it's it's available to them up real good it's got me as was taking a capsule can absorb things better from food mmhm sometimes what is wala wala ince's it's like omega three omega six try at that and fish for uh i'm one of those weird vegans oh how dare you what about a hemp oil does that have natural camp is good help is really good too yeah but at the time i don't know the only thing i could kind of get it together to do liz walnuts one a threat yeah did you know bill romanowski is out of life what do i with that level well as football player it was a famous football player and he suffered a lot of concussions and created something called nuro one and
it's a nootropic blend and he created it to deal with some of the symptoms that he had had or some of the repercussions from all the head trauma that yeah yeah they're wondering if you never tried anything like have not i know there are a lot of that sort of nutraceutical like interest in experimenting with that i did not try that because of the dopamine i was wondering like yeah tone in like five h teepees without good for yeah rebuilding sir toner building blocks of certain i didn't get it together to try any of that so you were just really struggling i always try going i mean i would i would like i would sit on the bathroom floor and like cry for hours but quietly again want my husband to fly out nice very polite depression seems counter intuitive to someone who doesn't know anything like me though you're saying that you could only watch like buffy the vampire slayer because it already seen it before but playing a game like decent part of
so emulating right now an actually i couldn't play video games i would try to play like peggle i was like table will be easy it's like a kind of pinball game where you shoot little pimples around pop pegs and it's and they played like the hallelujah chorus every level you complete so it's like yeah i'm successful there like pie i prayed for for me i think i'm like that'll really help help me but even that was too stimulating so i can play video so the game i met was not a video game we did salim make an app in a web version so people could could other people can play but it was more like just a set of rules that i would follow you know like you wouldn't like oh how do you play hide and seek or how do you play poker like learn the rules and play so i just started making up rules for myself about doing things that you would do in a video game like collecting powerups or
spotting like making lists of the bad guys and all the ways like where they would show up in my strategies or for fighting them and coming up with a class list so like what something i can do in the next twenty four hours to feel better not like something concrete that i can accomplish and so just starting to approach my recovery with these really concrete game full strategies and really the the you know the first thing i did was i adopted this secret identity like my avatar i was going to have an avatar in my recovery and that was jane the concussion slayer because i'm like i'm going to be like buffy and buffy did not choose to be the slayer right like they just you're the slayer you have to save the world and i'm like i did not choose to hit my head so i'm going to be like her and just tries to throw up occasion and kind of try to tap into my sense of determination and being a badass and so what did you
do like after you took on this persona or adopted the idea of this avatar like what did you do like what power ups like who are the bad guy yeah i'm back is there anything that would trigger my symptoms so you know bright lights a crowded space you know conversation i mean everything but the thing with with bad guys and like you know in a video game oh there is there's a monster you don't run away you gotta figure out how you're going to tackle it or get past it so in the same is true with recover from any kind of injury or illness you have to keep testing the limits right 'cause otherwise you wind up never getting better you kind of convinced that you're just flat on your back forever and this is sort of an aside but as i was doing all the research for this new book i found out that the number one predictor of disability after a back injury is avoiding things that make your back hurt early on during recovery so you would think like oh you have to
you know don't don't do anything that will make your back worse but the longer you keep that mindset that's the number one predictor of who becomes chronically disabled you not able to work or their their life is affected and major way and it's not the severity of the injury is not the severity of the pain and so all kinds of injury and illness now because you get stuck in that pattern you never really so you get stuck thinking yourself is injured yes yeah and so you know it's like but with all of these things are still careful balance so you have to recognize that the bad guys are bad i can't i can't go out and being a crowded space for three hours can go to like a lady gaga
answered which i really wanted to do my skin not going to do that i that that is kind of like i'm like the next time she comes through that'll be like one of my epic wins when i can go see her but like you can do little things to tax let me go into the whole foods and see how many minutes i can make it before the symptoms come back to kind of like testing today was thirty seconds i got to leave maybe next week it'll be five minutes and then use kind of start to get your life back because you don't want to get on that course towards seeing yourself is is kind of chronically disabled so so that you know i'd you come up with these ways to to battle the bad guys you know every day in in in the version we tested with the n i h that's the game is activate three power ups a day so from in that might been eating all nights or like cuddling my my dog has that made me feel like a safe and happy so anything that provokes a positive emotion if you're depressed you have to really find what are the things that can get through that depression
and still make you feel good so you don't cuddle my dog eat walnuts do you do three of those a day one bag i battle a day where you really test the limits to see if you're getting better and one class today which is the smallest possible thing you can do that will kind of move you in the direction of your goal or recovery or just feel like something productive that you want to do so one time i my class i decided to bake cookies for the braces the coffee place down the stairs i'm like i i because i could feel like i can do anything for myself so much i'm gonna big cookies for someone else today and as a result randomly amount of getting free coffee for a year 'cause they were like could not be
if somebody came like down with this giant plate of like cookies fresh out of the oven but i did not did not expect that but that was just like you know find one thing i can do today that will have a positive impact and that's that's a sort of there's other stuff you know in the game but that's sort of the main you're basically using game game models to kind of structure your life to make sure that you're staying engaged not hiding you know actually making progress to getting better this sounds really difficult like like more difficult than i think most people would ever imagine recovering from a concussion would be i think most people would think that i wouldn't want to say most people even just say what i would think i had a concussion i don't think since i was probably twenty an i would think that what it would be like would be like oh man i feel like shit let me just lie down here i put ice in my head i'll watch tv or something and i'll just go i'll take a lot of
apps right when you think it'll feel like a hang over something that the problem is that your thinking becomes model too so it's not just that you have these physicals and you're not able to think clearly you're not thinking like yourself and can really lead to a lot of confusion bad decisions you know people they try to hide the severity of the symptoms because they think that it will you know other people will judge them or their debt like there's a lot of it that's very common i've now learned with concussions people hide the severity of symptoms because it's like you just you're you're not thinking clearly and you think it's important that other people not really see but i think i will become less of weird spokes person slash guru for compassion because of my ted talk about it so every day literally i hear on facebook or twitter from someone who's just been can cost in our
like what do i do and i actually i mean i you know have like okay i'm your ally and i'm like always you know sending direct messages to like ran people out on checking in on them to see food everything because it's not even like your friends and family will not understand they will think you'll be out on the couch for three days and they expect i'll be back to normal and they don't understand why three months for months later you're still struggling it's not i mean it is not been discussed enough although i think that's changing now people especially with so many soldiers coming back with long term symptoms of the concussions now the other thing that's confusing to me with this is that in the beginning the first stage of your concussion it's critical you do nothing right but then after a while you're like pushing it like how how much time has been a whole foods for free right yeah like many people would think that that's
sort of counterintuitive yeah yeah well in beginning is when the brain needs the most resources right so you don't want the early stages like yeah how many days so hang on the city's you re it'll say between forty eight hours to one week is the most crucial stage where you want when you want the most cognitive rest and you want to avoid a basically just exhausting the brain because blood anything you do that's cognitively demanding it there x blood flow to different regions of the brain you don't want your brain spending time trying to figure out your email instead of your because there's only there's only so much blood to flow around and you don't you don't want it to be tent and try and do an email will require so much more effort from you than it normally would so it's sort of like vicious cycle
now eventually the rain kind of gets into this sort of no spaces where it's like okay our work in our you've got yours got kind of your thickened up lesions it's going to take you know four months to kind of resolve and and and be back to normal so you can you can test you can saying gauge and and not being engaged will fuel depression anxiety so partly it's like you're trying to balance the mental health with the cognitive health i mean you can't if you were to do cognitive rest for a month if if you being in solitary confinement and we know that that has really bad mental health effects so you're kind of figuring this out as you go along there's really not a road map that set out no one's ever done this before and you just sort of take your game designing skills and apply what you know about the positive effects of games
and you experiment on yourself like a guinea pig yeah is he worried it might be fucking your brains out what could be worse than what this is already happening and i mean like literally then forty eight hours the that fog that like super black you know you wanted i fog was gone and it was it none of that the symptoms and go and it was asking cost as i was that that feeling of hopelessness really want away and because of the fun of the game you know what it's it's so this is this is why i wrote the book because i didn't really understand why work and you work from and then i put the rules online and people started writing me
from all over the world that they were using it and not just for concussions and people were writing for you know i've cancer i just had knee surgery someone you know who is just like nose with ale last starts playing it and i'm it it it seems to be it seem to be extremely effective at treating depression anxiety and also making people feel just stronger just look better versions of themselves and i did not understand it and and this is i see this all the time people because there can be a lot of skepticism that a game can be helpful during a really serious challenge in your life it sounds like trivial sound stupid so i freely acknowledge i didn't understand why it worked it seemed kind of absurd to me for people with much more serious problems and i had to so that's why i wrote the book is why i started doing people trial in the studies we've been doing for the last few years to try to understand because i didn't
all i knew was that it seemed to be having all these positive effects and that that was i mean even to a game designer like myself who believes in the power of games i was really taken off guard so how did you structure it like did you first start off just coming up with things like power pills or walnuts and god guys or depression and how did you like put this whole thing together yeah i mean i just don't making youtube videos which is really funny you can go back and look at like the first youtube videos of me it's like i don't think so like why are making a game for my concussion or something like that and first you to video you made what you will you stay still suffering yeah yeah yeah how many months was it in two i thought this is i think on day thirty four this is like the day i'm like a making a game i'm going to make you explaining the game what's it like to when you watch the video now it's crazy because i can't you can see i can't think of words i i i i
yeah yeah yeah what is it what would it be under why i'm making a game concussion something like that jamie i'll find it yeah 'cause it's like you can see i can't i you see how fast i talk my i'm like talking really slow grosses of five years ago yeah and how long do you think it was before you felt like one hundred percent you again i mean i'm like ninety nine percent
yeah i mean there's still not a hundred percent no this is it yeah there's still some things like certain lights i can't be around well like it's a crate says it's like it feels like i'm having five years later yeah let's let's play this record there i am i am making this video to clean and checks thanks bye in june hi jim in a can you help me with that are covering up process after i hit my head and that confession and that was it to go and the recovery has been very slow and hard so it's getting to the point where i feel like i need a game to help me get through it i was doing some research today about
post concussion syndrome which is what i definitely would have and that's where you can trouble concentrating truck oh i mean i probably just sitting there with my laptop in my lap serious planning mental problem solving that would give me a concussion i'm having a very hard time i was not a bro and i get dizzy a lot i get headaches and nauseous like thing where you could really say clearly you're moving way way slower you're talking way slower you could see you're struggling there yeah unless you're on meth right now i am a naturally very energetic person it's fascinating to me that you're not one hundred percent still yeah i mean you know and i'm not sure and harley why i was knocked out once when i was younger like knocked out for like five minutes i fell off a sliding board
what's a sliding blade is like a philadelphia thing i don't know like a slide like at the playground that you ok i'd i think in philly we called it sliding boards and i fell right the side and hit my head on a cement block oh yeah that was really young that was my first concussion that's probably what's going on too is repeated concussions right now what's interesting is i was so young i did not is like i don't know it's like for something i actually did know that i'd had a concussion i thought this was my first concussion in two thousand and nine in the doctor like oh if you had a concussion board know because obviously every he knows now if you have more than one it can start to the healing will take longer i didn't know until like a month in my injury i'm talking to my parents and they mentioned well you know the last time you had a concussion you were feeling better much faster and i'm like what what what last time oh you remember when you fell off the sliding board when you were you know remember
anything when they are for right now my five year old doesn't remember anything which is for you know when you broke your collarbone and like you remember like wearing a sling for a collar on but i didn't know that i had a concussion so even though you were four and then the next one you were an adult it still made i mean it's i'd is like bees the fines does not quite understand how this works at like if if the cumulative knocks have to be all within the same few years or if we can stretch out over a lifetime i try not to think about it too much because i'm like you know god if it happens again that i'm real see you know but i'm actually i like walk around like this cover yeah if i may look at a you know like a concert or like in it
wear a helmet if i lose you i literally when i finally got it night club or something i want to wear a helmet i'm like wanting if i can bring that back i just did a girl that used to go to mosh pits it was crazy and she got head but it by a dude came over of my apartment after she had been moshing and she's like mom like what are you doing oh she i think she went to see some crazy fucking bad i'm trying to remember the is there a band called the creeps yeah it was yeah this is in boston and like eight thousand eight hundred and eighty nine so we should be wearing helmets you definitely don't get head butted in a mosh pit yeah but i would say look there's certain assholes like drunken dummies or you go out to places you you know i'm short so i'm always worried about the elbows like i was like reaching for something yeah like some big dude will test i mean even like one planes and people are taking down their luggage
i like how our by the windows or by the window seat yeah that's some the record mission of vulnerabilities an issue with people that get hurt because then also do you realize you can get hurt and sometimes you just walk on eggshells all get on it it reduces the quality of your life yes exactly and that's i mean that's sort of they get to that idea of you know fighting the bad guys things that hurt you and then you decide kind of how how comfortable you are you can't just run away you can't just hide you have to kind of push your comfort limits a little bit but i'm i'm not gonna go skiing you just don't ski not going to ski yeah wow i did like certain there certain things now that i feel like it's not worth the risk to me one slash three you know i can only imagine i just start skiing at forty five first time skiing i fucking wiped out hard last year that's fine didn't didn't hit my head and i'm pretty good at falling i know how to fall or tumblr
roll with it i was like dude i was going fast when i wipe oh yeah there's video that's online today that i just retweeted earlier today this fucking kid is in colorado and he's on a skateboard and he's going seventy miles an hour down a hill and you just watch in like every part of my body's like tingling here you know that anticipation of injury is look you tweeted that did you treat the a rooftop her like the guy in russia hangs up soon that's you know really interested in like narrow hacks how you can do little things to like you have changed like how your brain is working right now and that video it seemed to me would be really good for people to get a little adrenaline going if you're like on your watch and you're like having a hard time getting yourself out of bed oh my god he's going seventy miles an hour down this crazy hill
horrible music for me it looks like a video game right i mean it's crazy this kid is doing this 'cause you can stop i mean actually he's really good so there's a point where he he turns a skateboard sideways to slow it down like at the very end but and there's a couple little wiggles there it looks like he's about to go down and if he goes down dude you're breaking everything yeah you want seventy miles an hour i mean he is fall lying there's no way i mean they're not faking this unless this is some sort of advance eg i was going to say i mean it almost could be a video game like watch when he reaches hands down yes some kind of crazy gloves on and when each is hands down there's a certain part in the video where he's touching sparks looking to spark see this parks look at that jesus fucking christ i kind he almost fell i mean he's getting like really close to fall
like this a couple times there with is like this intense wiggle and he's talking himself make a speedskater so that he can go faster crazy fucker like what is wrong with kids i mean i get it this is an adrenaline rush but when you see this knowing what you suffered from standing up under a cabinet yeah this is freaky as you have a helmet on is that a hat and the helmet was at how we gonna do will it all look at that that kid is crazy that's how he slowed down now he's down to a reasonable pace but when you see he'll do it again to slow down was aboard and look at this that is nuts we figuring out how many hours of because he's like a virtuoso
yeah so this is like thousands and thousands of hours yeah he's put the ten thousand hours yeah yeah but good lord you see something like that knowing what you went through like anything like we see like dirt bike riders doing i actually have a really i stopped watching professional football after i used to you know i mean go forty niners right but i can't i can't watch football anymore like i just i mean i can but i don't enjoy it in the same way because i just feel i feel bad the players and when i see when i see like a really hard hit i just i just feel bad so i think that's something that a lot people are struggling with these days with all these you know the real sports story they did on traumatic brain injury and the issues that people are having and the
stuff i've seen from fighters over the years is definitely affected my enjoyment what's this retiring after concussion yes hit to my head could possibly i mean this is a thing that right thriller yeah there were the retiring one two years into their career well there's more of that now than ever before because guys are realizing first of all at the end of at the end of their career they're most likely going to be debilitated that mean almost all of the players to take a lot of head suffer from serious injuries for the rest of their lives and so when you're young and in looking at your future going look i could put all my energy into this and you know the or i can say you know what i'm still young i'm twenty three i could do anything i want like look i've been in the nfl i've experienced it let me just get the fuck out here some out and make sure that the future of the sport is going there's going to be a big so
now divide were the only people who who really want to play and are willing to take that risk or people who feel like they have nothing to lose where is that in this is the people that want to watch it like we we've experience that with the u of c two there's a there's a bunch of people that want to watch the the head injuries they just don't know what they're seen yet they don't stand like when you you somebody get kayode like really badly when you see someone get head kicked or dropped on their head or something like that you just see excitement you see like oh that guy just beat that guy yeah i know i know it's that yeah i can watch i can watch fights either for the same reason i have friends who are so into and you know you just because i mean so i love games i understand
again a good good sport is a good game and you admire people's ability to be so good at this you know this thing that we've created to test human potential but but you know it it's if i've sort it started drifting to sports where there's fewer concussions although you know like i'm a big tennis fan and one of the big stars just got a concussion this weekend at the us open house so she slips at in the open like the locker room after two and like the ice bath after like a phone not and it's interesting they showed her coming to the court to see if she could practice with her sunglasses on the hood he pulled up and she just has that that look that like now i'm i saw her i was like oh my god i mean she's like right in the that zone of where she thinks she's going to play because she's not thinking
clearly but you can see her i mean she's like a shell of herself so when you see something like that do you want to reach out to her oh yeah no i know and people have been tweeting at her to be like you have to get super better just finished their clinical trial you can you can be back by then he right now be better but what is super better yeah i know i do i do i do want to reach out because because i know how hard it was and how how so few people i mean the general public conversation about this is not caught up to kind of the reality of full experience well that all of those ice baths the that's one of the problems with that that form of cold therapy is that you get out in your legs like rubber yeah no you're you're you arrange at work and so that's why you can't do that stuff and then work out like this some forms of cold therapy that you can do you can workout after but not those ice pass i know i have done i run marathons so i have done some ice bath and yeah i have
never done the whole body cryotherapy we stepped in the chamber and go to two hundred and fifty degrees below zero for three minutes it's awesome is it really is there like a mind by the element like you kind of is there like a mental state that is change oh yeah well your brain produces something called neopan efron cold shock proteins and all these different things happen when you hit minus one fifty degrees below zero yeah zero yeah is also the something that someone just invented one of these are brought this up something called a cryo helmet like put it on over your head it's like a gel pack thing like it's almost like a hoodie and you put it on on and it's like they really recommend it for people that have had head injuries that interesting i haven't introduction and swelling right i could i mean i could see that if you're trying to treat the inflammation because it's like a whole thing like that we got
your frozen helmet you know he was little gel packs now yeah yeah one of those but it's a helmet yeah i don't know you might i will because i yeah no you got to pull up like google scholar though for me i want to see like is there any literature on this yet because i'm certainly go for i don't put i'm i'm fairly conservative with telling other people what to do like for myself you know i was like oh well make a game but for telling other people to do i'm like wait till there's appear yeah for sure but fighters you know boss rudin whose former ufc heavyweight champion great fighter was talking about that that's it's important like when guys get hit to ice their head after it's over anything in his rationale was like look of hurt your name what's the first thing they do they put ice on it why don't they put ice in your head yeah i was like that actually makes a lot of sense i know this is really interesting i was just reading about you know you probably know this they say like five minutes after you stop breathing supposedly you have like brain cell death if you look at
drowned round can't get them breathing again in five minutes then supposedly this too late and they're now finding that if you cooled down the body in the brain that they can come back you can be not breathing not you know heart heart beating for more than five minutes now if you get the body temperature snow in pack them with ice that's what they're doing now they're starting to do that it's like a first ranking for section i know and i was like i was telling my husband like we need to we need to read this literature so because i want to know if i'm supposed to do this or wait till like the emt shows like if something happens should i start packing ice or yeah i'm not sure i'm not actually sure if the practical implication yeah as you get older you realize more and more help damn vulnerable people are yeah so physically vulnerable what is what because your eye in doing what i do i have confronted a lot
skepticism and i would even say i mean people who are really quite sarcastic really about this oh i'm going to adopt a secret identity and it's going to make me not depressed you know usually it's people not suffering from depression who say this 'cause if you're really suffering from something debilitating like an impression you will try anything so that people who are pretty happy and healthy and they'll say this is sounds ridiculous but but you're talking about bloggers right yes well yeah and the new yorker just ran a big like a giant piece about about super better at the sort of you know it was both positive but also still the sounds kind of ridiculous well does sound ridiculous but but then it's still can work and sound ridiculous exactly and that's why it's like i when you really tell
normal people are and how much is out of our control mean those are the people who are the first in line to try this and who benefit the most so we had half a million people play an electronic version like logging their power ups in their bag as in class so that i could get data on it and see what are the most effective power ups like how often do you have to you know check into it to get better and we found that people with the which is still the most painful and difficult situation these were the ones that were benefiting the most is like sort of the more you realize how vulnerable you are the more open you are and the more this kind of concrete purposeful positive action can actually make a big difference that makes sense i mean once you feel the vulnerability inch you you you it could be it it becomes real whereas when you look at someone who has a broken leg then you go i can
intellectually understand that that person broke their leg but i don't know what it feels like right if you've never broken your leg you don't know that feeling like fuck i can't even stand on this stupid thing is that that feeling where like ok now what do i have to do what do i have to do tons to do and then the reality changes and the reality of you having the head trauma and trying to figure out like there's gotta be a way to get out of this swamp this mental swamp that i'm stuck in let's fucking make it do you like you're just i mean sense to me a person who's a person's been through a bunch of surgeries and injuries and stuff it totally makes sense to me because there's a reality though every time i've really badly injured myself like where i needed a knee surgery or something that's like a just an acceptance just goes let's just go do it let's go do it 'cause now this thing is broken until that happens there's a bunch of people tell you well once you try rehab in it why don't you try doing this like no
it's like i don't think you get it now and a lot of times you have an injury and you won't know if it will get better if you'll be able to get back to what you doing before which is actually where the name super better comes from because i wasn't sure i would ever have the same cognitive capabilities not at that time i was you i was and i i just got my my phd i was doing research i was you know i was used to being able to have an intellectual profession and so i was like get better soon and i'm like well what does it mean that means get back to who you were before this happened and i didn't know if i would ever be able to do uh of that again so i thought well i'm not going to get better i'm going to get super better i'll just be different i'll be like this news for version of myself like spider man you know he got hit by the radio
have spider in this concussions my radioactive spider and i don't know if we are going to be but it'll be someone different and instead of just trying to you know anytime you have an injury or you don't know who you're going to be at the end of it it might be back to normal it might be different and you want to be the best different that it could be you have there's been many stories of people that have gotten knocked on the head and all the sudden had musical talent and mathematical talent are you hoping that that was going i had the weirdest experience so i'm a very introverted person by nature you know like if my phone rings he won't answer it like even if you're my friend or like you're my mom that's too much social interaction like i get anxiety i cancer so that's been like my whole life but what we know about like the difference between introverts and extraverts is introverts tend to stimulate themselves within
all thinking they're always there always thinking and they don't need other people to kind of get them excited extroverts respond much more positively to external stimulation it's like a it's like they're just prime to the if they see someone smile get them it's like a cocaine hit you know so when i had the injury i couldn't think to myself anymore i couldn't like entertain myself with my own thoughts and i became like this super extroverted person and like i said like calling everybody in my phone like contactless in which people i would never i mean won't even pick up the phone and i'm like please talk to me because i couldn't i couldn't literally cannot be an introvert anymore but that only lasted for a couple months and then my sir to get better i went back to the internet and i still today i i try to keep some of that because i actually discovered we i i really think it's nice
talk to people it's not it's not actually a burden you know but that's so that was one of the super better and it is for me is i realize and you know we know from psychological literature extroverts really are happier they the longer the psychologically healthier it is if you can convince yourself to be social it's it's really good for you that introverts just is still have a different brain chemistry so their brains telling them of scary like you know to make immigration that's the one of the weirdest things about online interaction is it's kind of a combination of both vert behavior an extrovert be because even though you are interacting with people you're not seeing them no it's controlled and that it's it's the face to face can be really one thing yeah yeah what year it's like the just the the energy so
it is yeah i mean it's not it's not the same thing as being mean just because your introvert doesn't mean year i don't know like socially able like i you know you're not gonna miss fit well obviously you you're very cable for keeping a regular conversation going yes i mean when when you can say you're an introvert but you're easily you like you're just talking no problems or not had some introverts on this podcast before it's obvious they're like everything is in effort yeah yeah there's probably more of an effort for me than it looks but i think it's more of an effort for everybody that it looks maybe that's a good point i think that is one of the issues with online interaction is that you don't see the people in the you know you just just like mine tension is it's kind of ambiguous and i like your right side thing where you put something out there and it's not completely clear like if you say something i get the tone
i can tell if you being sarcastic and i if if you say something mean to me like we have to look at each other and like fucking really you know like in this is weird thing to it whereas if you do that online there's like none of that i think that there's something very strange that's going on in our culture right now with so many people spinning a giant amount of their time i'm only interacting with people through taxed absolutely well that's one of the areas of research that i was diving into so you know because i i don't just mean research brain injury stuff i mean typically research video games and how they change how we feel and think and act and what is your highest in this the field call performance studies so i was just basically studying how people perform in video games and as a result of video games sort of collaboration skills they're sort of psychological performance on
things like that at uc berkeley was where i studied and dial so one of things that we know it's happening in video games is that there's a really big difference between playing a video game in the same room with somebody and playing online yeah so if we're playing call of duty and i'm trying to kill you if we're playing in the same room we act really undergo really great kind of they call synchronization so our heart rates will sync up our breathing gates sync up we get it's kind of mirror neuron in process going on where it's like blood flow is mirroring where it's flowing the patterns of activation army ring each other and all of that's associated with more compassion and more empathy we
like each other more we trust each other more even if the game is violent even if we're competing all of this happens and it happens because you know when you're playing a game with or against someone you have to try to get in their brain like what are they going to do next what's the next move and so your brain starts to mirror what you think they're doing so this is really it's mind body nearing that goes on what triggers the mirroring the the observance of the character on screen i well now it's big it's because it only works if you're in the same spot physical space with that but you're still looking at a screen yeah
what you're trying to think what are they doing and there's just something about if you're that you may think you're looking at the screen but there is also a general awareness like when you're sitting next to someone right you're aware of serve what's going on and the and cues that you're picking up body language cues and if you like turned to look at them you you'll even just in a split second look at this and facial expression q and that doesn't happen in online games so what we've been measured yeah yeah yeah so what we scene is if you take the same game and play it you know again somebody in the room you wind up with these positive impacts are like you know more compassion
empathy you like each other more if you play the same game online you're not able to see their facial expression you're not able to get the same sinking phenomenon you actually de humanize the opponent you your testosterone goes up you feel less empathy towards them and so it's one of the reasons why in the box i talk about how you know unless you're actively trying to change your personality to be more aggressive you want to i don't know some reason you feel like you want to be kind of more of a have this aggressive hostile personality you should not spend more than half your time trying to beat strangers online line because of the because it's not times a lot of time your have your gaming oh jesus christ what are you recommended for twenty four hours in a day snow spend more than twelve hours
strained and actually it's twenty one hours a week is where you start to see the benefits of games reduce and negative impacts increase so there's another public service announcement what if you have you done it in layers where you know you like i used to do lan parties my friends used to play quake yeah lan parties from it's a really fun in a lot of camaraderie and stuff yeah but if you put a barrier up yeah but in the same room or if they are in a room that's right next door but no there there and maybe you can hear their voice or if you shut that door in can hear their voice if you change have they seen like what what if the mirroring is consistent i'm the studies that i've seen show that you have to be in physical proximity so if there was a barrier and we we unable i was unable to look over and get those cues from your body language or from your facial expression that it would not happen however cubicle thing and i could just like
each up yeah then you and then you'll probably why and i don't i like i like this idea of the staging the thing i'm really curious about is with twitch and now you to gaming if you can watch somebody playing and and now you're seeing their face while they're playing a game studies have shown that watching someone play a game that you know how to play will trick the same mirror neurons cause your brain can kind of emulate if playing a game i don't know how to play under the controls i don't have the goals my brain will just be like the i don't know but if i know how to hey mike how i know what she's trying to do i i'm not a strategy for yeah whatever it is everybody knows yeah you can always goes yeah yeah so one thing i'm interested in is if i can see someone's face you know while they're playing we're playing a game i know could you get some of the but it would only be unidirectional because if you're like live streaming your gameplay you can't see me so but it be interesting says we know that if
get this mirror neuron effect it makes people want to help you more like each other more and like thinking like being a powerful you know twitch stream are you two game streamer like could make you really cultivate a large community people who really want to help you with like like if i were building an empire of like a new community i feel like that would be what i would be building because they would be really would be like a really tight bond that's fascinating you know this twitch thing is caught a lot of people by surprise yeah i think a lot no one would have ever thought that would be so popular to watch some play video games right and the mirror neuron thing helps explain it because it's not like watching tv where it's just passive if you how to play the game your brain starts working to process it and anticipate you know what they're going to do next trying to figure out what what decision maker or where it'll
so and so you're actually getting a lot of the same simulation as if you were playing the game yourself and that's the thing people don't understand with this with musicians too if you to play musical instrument and you watch somebody playing that's a musical instrument your brain starts to activate as if you were playing it you're so which is why i can be more interesting for someone somebody knows how to play the piano to watch someone else play the piano or listen to someone else play the piano versus somebody doesn't know it totally makes sense when i used to play quake we used to watch these things they some demos and what it was was a game they would record and so you'd see it through our eyes so you get to see how good a player it moves and then it would make you play you would play better after you saw that absolutely they were really popular like demos were super popular you would download them and you would play them in game like in your game
remember that yeah yeah i was like an account is like a little bit well that's the case with athletics to arm a lot of people tell me that when they watch like a really good basketball player play that makes them play better basketball yeah i know it's the case with pool i play pool and when i watch really good players play like i can kind of emulate what you do and but if if if i feel like it's not just like copying but i kind of tunein your brain is practicing it i i find that after a grand slam in tennis because i'll watch the only reason why i'm not watching tennis right now is 'cause we're here do and this i going on high at the us open my favorite player is playing like right literally right now later player joey the song who i need my puppy after i have a dog and a mango but he's playing right now to get get to the semis but no spoilers 'cause i'm recording it but i know that so i'll go like two weeks watching hours and hours of tense today then i go
to play tennis and i'm better i'm absolutely i see the ball better i get to it better absolutely because my brain is spent two weeks mirroring everything i see but if you don't know how to play if you've never played your body won't do it so you have to have you have to have a model for for this to work totally makes sense yeah because like something like tennis like i've been i'm and may be played once in my whole life when i was in my early twenties so you wouldn't get as much i wouldn't get anything because i'm not going to play again i don't think i just enough time in the day but i totally understand that that totally makes sense i think that probably is the case it pretty much everything that do it's one of the reasons why a sense community amongst people that are all involved in the same sort of endeavour so important 'cause you kind of push each other and inspire each other and also you kind of feed off of each other maybe like if we were all comedians maybe you would have
make a certain kind of style that i don't have and i would see your style ago oh james got this crazy thing she do it well that's kind of cool and then maybe i would do something that you didn't do any like maybe i need to like be more this or me more and for sort of tune in to how people are doing to the point where a lot of comics when they're around each other it becomes an issue sometimes because they kind of mimic each of those personas or or or even just the cadence you would think you start picking up there's a guy named david towel so one of the funnest guys ever and he she's got a way of talking that's really fun and when he talks like there's so many young guys that come up that start talking like dave it al and it's like it became an issue where there was all these little like patrice on east comma tell babies so liza tell babies that were running around it but really they're just young comics that admire his sort of kate and they're trying to do it too
and they were like super inspired because they're young and they're just trying to make it and then they seen this guy there's this fantastic comedian like god and then they don't even realize it but there just opting it yeah no that makes perfect sense i mean you just becomes template and nobody exists in a vacuum right i mean everybody sort of there's everyone influences everyone around them to a certain extent we all want to believe that were some rogue indypendent operator that exists out in the fridge society and lives in a fucking wooden house in the woods somewhere that sounds nice sounds nice but it's ok to creation of fiction oh yeah no it's funny some the myer clive thompson he writes a lot about technology for acquired in new york times and he to book out recently about is technology changing our brain and the opening chapter says news flash everything changes your brain this sentence you just read it change
to rain so i mean in one hand it's sort of silly did to look at research that says oh games change your brain like this or music should be like that because everything you do everything you're exposed to changes your rain here making a memory or your activating a pattern so i mean like even this conversation you know congratulations like you have changed my brain today but this is just something think about it a lot of responsibility and how we interact with each other it is and well that's that's one of the weirdest things about doing a podcast is how many people will tell me after they listen to podcasts for five hundred episodes did you change my life oh yeah goods a lot of responsibility but it we really are changing each others lives i mean the podcast has changed my life just being able to talk to all these different people so it's port not to have dipshits in your life 'cause if you're and people that are just constantly fucking up and constantly making the same
mistakes over and over again like that pattern affects you too that pattern we creep into your mind yes and so you know it's it's it's really good to surround yourself with people who inspire you because they they talk about having a cognitive model for behavior change like if you're trying to get better in some way if you can visual if you know somebody who's already done it or doing positive things in their lives it requires less center you for your brain to imagine yourself doing it like if you're if you if you don't if you're not trying to anybody who's trying to get healthcare trying to get set or whatever it is your it's like it's literally harder to imagine and so it's like more exhausting for you to try to imagine yourself getting better whereas if you're surrounded by people who are doing it it becomes familiar to your brain there's all sorts of examples that your brain cone call on literally takes less energy for you to imagine yourself actually doing it and weirdly they found at stanford university using avatars if you can see an avatar that is
designed to look like you doing the sort of things you want to do like you know being really physically fit like work out in the game rule if you just watch an avatar custom designed to look at you doing that it lower the for you to do it and then you will do more in real life real like you know you will work out more you'll spend more time committed to those goals just by having watched the sort of mirror version of yourself having done it that's fascinating that's fascinating 'cause that seems open up a whole new realm of possibility for people creating virtual reality games yeah virtual reality is where your watch like one of the big things that they say it's an important for progress in sports and and then pretty much anything is visualization visualize yourself doing things it's a big thing with martial arts the take a lot of fight
big talk them through their scenarios they will sit down and close our eyes meditate and visualize themselves getting out of bad situations visualize themselves winning and do it over and over and over again to the point where it becomes like a part of this your reality your reality is you win yeah you know it seems like if you could watch a video of you doing all those things and artificially created you absolute jumping higher than you've ever jump before did out scoring in tennis yeah and what's so it's like it's it's a there's a little bit of nuance to it that's really interesting so for exam if you are like walking on a treadmill while you're watching a custom avatar of yourself and the avatar seems starts running faster and is getting fitter you will run faster you will you will work harder if if you are engaged in an activity it can really get you moving so
it would be good to tie it to when you're actually working out like it might not be it might last for you know this movie today and a week later i'm still feeling more powerful you kind of want to do it in the moment there they the one study at sanford found for twenty four hours they were they said were more physically active like taking stairs are doing more push ups or whatever by data but i do like the idea of using it purposely like that the one thing i know is like for positive visualization i don't know if you've seen that's been movies are coming out do you have to visualize the effortful action and not the outcome like if you're visualizing getting you know lifted up on people with people shoulders like i am the champion that actually seems to sometimes have a productive affected your brain can imagine it so vividly you kind of feel like you've already had that pay off and you're put in less effort
that didn't study a few years at show this so but if you're visualizing the effort for activity that it takes to get there you're picturing you know here i have to do on game day and you're thinking about that the things that require effort on your part techniques or you know that the actions are going to take that is helpful so you just want to think about you know i can't wait till a you know call me up and say that i won right whatever you have you can't think about just you have to be visualizing the things that are going to require effort energy your part that's the that's that seems to be the most helpful it's so fascinating because i did just that statement right there that seems to be the most helpful there's so much weirdness and all this is if it's like magic like what like what is the with the visualization process what's the mechanism like what what what is it inspiration a man how much of inspiration how much is
inspiration a factor in success i well i would say probably gigantic right well that was that all it is i mean there's there's so many different avenues i am i focus on self efficacy as what you're trying to increase as opposed inspiration to self efficacy is when you for all like you have the skills and abilities and resources you need to achieve your goal it's it's it's different from self esteem self esteem like i'm a good person you know it's sort of like myself self efficacy is very specific like if i have self efficacy about running a marathon it means that i have done and you know at least a few twenty mile runs i know how hard it's going to be i've got my research i know how to you know few older the ron i know how much i hate take sodium i have to take a different point i know what the course looks like so i've got a mental plan having that sense of reasonable optimism and focusing on visualizing what you'll do successfully that's focus on your own skills and abilities that
in all of the scientific leisure is linked to better outcomes whereas if you're managing things that are outside of your control it just doesn't how is it might inspire you and maybe you'll you know get out of bed and put more of an effort as you you know picture something good has thank you but the the mental model that seems to be most powerful is when you're focusing on things that you have direct control over that makes sense yeah the self efficacy how much of all that is just a little like what you're talking about is just focus is just thinking about what you're doing and the more you think about what you're doing in the more energy you put towards what you doing makes you better and how this is just it is a
symbol that all these ideas of just visualization is what we are doing is really just focusing more and loving more what you're doing i think that could be a big part of it i mean that that focus attention you're you're able to perform better you learn faster i think part of it is also something to do with the dopamine system in video games so if some so i've talked to lots of narrow scientists for this book and a lot of them will say if you want to increase someone self efficacy you have them play video game because in a video game you're constantly required to take action and then wait to see you know i try to fire my weapon i wait to see if i shot successfully i try to orient around an obstacle i'm going to see i'm going to get information every time
your brain expects information about your performance it gives you a little dopamine release dopamine feels good so you got excited but increase dopamine also allows you to pay closer attention and to learn faster right so anytime you're trying something where you're constantly taking actions getting feedback and you have to kind of learn and improve you'll get all this dopamine going and that is associated with the ability to build self efficacy so i think there is a i mean i think there's a neurochemical process that's uh lying this is not it's not just mean it's not just a matter of what you think is also about changing what is going on in your brain so that brain is primed to learn faster to improve and that that's the that's why you know that's why they seem to be so many cool applications for video game
because if you can get a cancer patient who feels really powerless and overwhelmed to the video game about chemotherapy and it starts building self advocacy and getting all the dopamine going there was a clinical trial that showed that kids who played a video game about cancer were four hundred and twenty three months later missing fewer doses of their match send taking more antibiotics they were more engaged which leads to more cases of cancer being going into remission isn't that just more focus is just focusing i think you mean it's using it as a mechanism to focus and think about your illness focus and thing about your car but its focus with the dopamine hit and the increased over mean is going to it changes so what now will get really deep here
every time that you consider a goal your brain stops and says is it worth it because your brains trying to conserve your body's energy and you know that that your cognitive energy will say if i if i do this goal and do i really want it i'm going to put the energy to do it and what researchers have found the more dopamine you have in your reward pathways the more you focus on the positive outcome and the less you think about the effort required so i give you a bunch of dopamine hence you're gonna be thinking about i might be cured some day i don't care how many side effects are to this medicine i'm swallowing this pill you know and and i'm going to do it because your focus on the positive outcome not all the other things that stress you out about it or make you you know the nausea and and that that the enter
that it takes and this is true if you drink push up she now like do i really feel like doing one hundred pushups right now if you have more dopamine going you're going to be more likely to say this is important to me is supported by training and if you are low dopamine which is when you're clinically depressed you have really low dopamine so things seems too hard why am i going to bother getting out of bed there's like the effort required seems so much more important in the goal so there is a neurological underpinning to self advocacy is sort of this combination of really wanting to achieve your goal and having that increase attention so you learn faster so there but you have to it's i mean it's not it's not it's not just a matter of saying i'm going to pay attention now you have to be priming your brain to increase the dope
in your or pathways right and but the dopamine hit what is the mechanism that creates the dopamine head is it just simply loving what you're doing you know who's asking no no its goals its its goals it's anticipation what specifically is anticipation of feedback so the fastest way for you wanted to increase your dopamine right now i would say make a prediction about something that's going to happen today it could be anything like i because i've i predict that signed the will win today in four sets whatever it is you make a prediction about something everything make a prediction your brains like how i might be right i'm gonna and and and that'll feel good and if i'm not right to learn something why did he lose in five sets or whatever so i make a better prediction next time that gives you a dumping it so in a video game when you fire your weapon you've predicted that it's gonna successfully
see that guy over there and you're waiting for it to see on the screen did i miss or did i hit that's why you get a dopamine hat so every time you make a prediction your brain gears up to either celebrate that you were right get a success or i got to learn so that i can do better the next time that's why i think i i you know i have friends i have one friend in particular that you didn't grow up with any healthy sense of competition and what is he's actually talked about that if there's one thing that he can go back and do again like he thinks his parents and really instill any sense of competition him and he's one those guys if he's playing a game it's not going his way he'll pull the plug he'll flip the board over he's that guy yeah right well you know what's going on in the brain so this is you have this reaction but to him losing is is devastating and games are only if you can win right well and is probably what's going on is his brain is saying
you know it's starting to realize no amount of effort is going to turn this around and so he just walks away well not only that there's no there's no history of figuring things out and getting better right everybody who's ever started anything and gotten really good at it knows it in the beginning you suck and that's it's kind of exciting yeah like you pick something up say tennis you know like if i started playing tennis today i don't know how to play tennis i would suck and it would be exciting 'cause i would get my ass kicked and never like ok i have to figure this fucking thing out like what makes that ball spin like that house that guy whacked that ball oh i see he's no he knows his number crunching his gaze like data he knows he's got his chunking information he knows that if i move left the balls going go there and he's going to go here and uh and i don't have
so and that experience of getting better i mean that's the basis for self efficacy so it's like sometimes people ask me my parents will say what kids should might the game should my kids be playing for a learning experience but i say every game it is designed to be a learning experience because you're supposed to be bad and that's why games feel so good it your your everything you playing the game you're figuring it out you're learning how it works you're getting better that experience of constantly getting better in proving to yourself i can figure something out i can improve i can master something that's that's one of the reasons is a fundamental reason why people like playing games and why they don't play the same game forever i mean sometimes you do with the game that you can never
mr like chess or something you know but most people will will really get into a game for awhile and then feel like they have stopped irving and so the brain gets you know wants to keep learning wants to keep getting better the dopamine had certainly going to calm if you aren't sure how to be successful right so you have to play a new game so i we don't play tic tac toe as adults right no no dopamine at detective because you know exactly what's going to happen yeah post it gamer give trying to my five year old ha ha ha ha we're going to draw time kids from the but there's there's a guy elitism attach chess more chances is the only game that's considered a worthwhile pursuit terrible but what is that because parents will tell kids that are playing video games that they're wasting their time i know but if you came home in your kid was playing chess silently with his friend and they're just looking at the e bill echo my kids up to
good thing i'm i sure it might first because einstein played chess so is it well i it's part of it so you know it's really interesting if you read letters that he used to write you know we've looked at but he wrote to people that he was worried that he was addicted to it he talked a lot about how he had this game addiction which is fascinating when you think about to hey how many people worried about i'm addicted to world of warcraft or whatever game so even einstein worried about being addicted to his game it is a real game addiction is absolutely real it is it is a real at it is absolutely real and there are techniques for breaking that pattern by the way if you would do you want a quick technique for how to break shore okay there's a whole chapter in in the super better buck about game addiction and how how to stop it how to reverse it and what tends to lead people into it so the biggest wish my friend dunkin was hearing biggest i know when video games yeah let me feel normal
the biggest predictor for who become addicted to games and feel like it kind of gets out of control spirals out of control is if they're playing for escapist purpose is to try to block other feeling so i have these all these problems i'm going to play the game in that i'm i'm feeling anxious i'm going to play the game instead so the way you reverse it is you have to i mean i talked about is playing to get better you are instead of playing to avoid something you focus on what you're doing that is making you better even if it's just to start getting better at this game then you focus on you know i'm playing with my friends it's like improving my relationship so i'm focusing on strategy or building my teamwork skills or whatever it is you start to think about other goals outside the game that the game is connected to
because the biological process of addiction is the narrowing of goals that the brain responds to this is true for for drug addiction i mean all four of addiction pornography narrowing of goals that the brain response right so you know i said you get like this i mean when you anticipate something good in addiction the brain starts to believe that the only source of the next dopamine hit is the thing you're addicted to and you can't imagine other things that are going to make you feel that good or feel that excited and one of this great new boat called the biology of desire that lays the nuro scientist kind of lays out all the new thinking on addiction and the way that you break one of the ways you break out of cycle for any diction is to start priming the brain to anticipate success or pleasure from uh
sure thing so you have to talk about like widening the scope of what is going to provide that dopamine hit so in gameplay you have to stop you have to stop thinking about the game as the only source of that good feelings you have to start thinking about other goals that you have besides just the sort of sense of relief that the game is going to provide so that's something that they tell addicts that are drug addicts use channel that addiction into something else so that's essentially what they're saying they're saying what you need to do is find something else but that's positive that you can get addicted to so you're seeking out that weird chemical reaction in the mind when you stimulated by something else right instead of chasing crack he'll chase exercise yeah but we're seeing
games because games aren't inherently dangerous you don't have to quit playing games and in fact it can be dangerous to just go cold turkey on games because if it's like taking someone off an android present without tapering them 'cause games have such a powerful impact on our our happiness you know many kids are going to listen to this call mom it's dangerous for me to quit this game it will you ever sent to jane there are like suicide i mean their cases of kids who have killed themselves when their parents turn off the game those kids would kill them those over anything i i think i think it is likely related to it's the same thing when you take someone off and uh i sent in the brain is no longer having bad the it is like the open windows need you lose your ability to imagine is the term positive is the term addiction like is that a flawed term because it see like it's so limiting
and in so narrow in its scope week we think of addiction we think of always on the heroin yeah know what you just man automatically think but really what is it the your brain has locked into these that's half ways of achieving desirable effects absolutely and that's there's a lot i've i've done some work with some relabeled realization centers recovery centers for addiction where they're starting to be more aware of this the new sense of what addiction is but if people are interested the book that just came out this year about that the value to the higher does a really good job of explaining it because it's i mean that as a pretty provocative argument it says that addiction is not a disease it's it's a fun if the brain is functioning absolutely perfectly it's just focusing on its like hyper focusing on
goal but if you had that same brain chemistry about writing a start up company i mean mark zuckerberg was addicted to his start up in the same way that someone can get addicted to a video game or addicted to a substance get hyper focused on one goal is your only source of of pleasure in anticipation of these positive feelings so it's the brain is working properly it's not broken it's not it's not a disease in that sense it's that it is just gotten stuck dagan stuck i think you productive yeah that is maybe ultimately not good for you physically or not good for your life that you're trying to leave it for your car you're a good for your family life or i had a buddy that was addicted to one of those role playing games here i guess was ever quest and he he has this really profound statement were at the comic store once he was on the managers and he said i am so good at making money
in my online life and so bad at it in my real life yeah yeah and like he was like who is sitting there like a broken man and i'm like how often he plays like eight hours nine hundred and ten hours a day everyday now every day and he goes yai arm cannot play it and then that's when he said that like i'm is like it is rare break from the game on during his free time it wasn't working and he came down the comic sort of hang out these pasty why pay almost gray skin 'cause he was just like just draw main malnourished sit in front of a monitor all the time moving and clicking and says like the inter and for that you know if you were to it sort of follow the guidelines of of how you train get people to sort of focus on their goals as you would just start by asking him why are you good at making money in this case
what what what is it take in terms of skill or you know commitment or research what are you waiting and and and start to think about strengths and abilities and then when you are thinking about yourself and what you're good at what you're capable of it kind of takes you out of you on its not the game right the game isn't making you successful or happy it's your own skills and abilities and that seems to be if you look at the scientific literature just talking about what you own and what what is a result of your skills and abilities that that helps you brought in that so you realize you can
fly that elsewhere there might be other venues it's not the game that's giving this to me is something that i own right that's so hard to intellectual lines and when you're in the grips of it i now i now that's why this is like questions in my book that like literally you can ask someone or you can ask yourself so you don't have to in like size images do that so the but their hundred question about you just do what i do what i tell you to do they're all designed like little game missions because it is it is it is hard to change your mindset i mean it's definitely hard but what we know from studies of all kinds of minds and interventions is that once you do it it sticks so unlike a lot of forms of therapy or medication you have to take this pill for the rest of your life to be in therapy for years if you can do a mindset intervention it's done benefits are there it's locked in and you can have a five minute mindset interval
and and and at instead of taking in a prescription for the rest your life what i found to mitigate my addiction problems are my addictive tendencies is just do a bunch of different things yeah i i have a bunch of different activities that i do and the reason why doing affects so many different things the key for locking exactly so you like intuitively figured that out well i figured it out trial and error over a long life of addiction i grew up being addicted to a bunch of different things at first it was art and then it became martial arts and then i got older became stand up comedy and it became a pool i had a real problem with pool to a point where my manager thought it was ruining my career was playing eight hundred and ten hours a day i was playing in tournaments all i want to do is play pool i would go my comedy sets and then i go play pool till three four hundred o'clock in the morning and then i would get up in the morning
go work out i go the you know go to my company do the same thing every night and all but all i was thinking about was the game i was thinking about like knocking the balls and the like the dopamine affect or whatever it is of winning of or of being successful of running out the table of having the ball do what you wanted to do and because it's so difficult the reward is so much like anything you really like if you play a game it's really easy when you win it doesn't mean anything so when you play a game that's really hard to do that reward is so fucking exciting yeah but this is interesting 'cause like you become a more interesting person as a result of having all the things that you do like you're like this really unusual that you have all of these things instead of being hyper focused on one aspect so it's probably
it seems like a good strategy i'm just a broad spectrum junkie that's yeah that's i want but i think that might be that could be like a recipe for a good life hi this is kind of interested in that idea now click with you should that should should look at thank broad spectrum junk it works right now but it could go off the rails yeah well you gotta keep you gotta keep you gotta keep that circle wide going off the rails several times in my life you should like even i like with running like i definitely use running for my mental health and if i get an injury mmhm that is really hard for me i have to replace it with something or else you know you go into a depression it's a big thing which is it's our guys it's very difficult for them to take the time off before they go back in training and wants to get injured yeah and i i have a couple crime
injuries that i have because one particular of a back injury there was a a bulging disc that i just would i would ignore right i would i would i would hurt it pretty bad and then two weeks later i'd be sparring yeah because i just needed that rush until it got pretty chronic and then i had to take a long stretch often really let it heal up but any that perspective it feels like i mean just hearing you say that makes me think really how important is for people to understand like how this system works you can say look my brain is telling me to go back and work out now even though my doctor said don't do it and i can google and it says stay off it for six weeks into understand your brains tell that because it once a dopamine head if you really want to rehabilitate properly you need to start doing other things that produce dopamine hats and that's i mean fantasy sports for example do get really into that for the season that you're taking off because that that you're making predictions so that's really does not work
i won't work for you no chance works for a lot of people yeah that not i need to be active yeah physically out yeah right well to be actual physical movement and yeah service this is a big part of my adrenaline junkie thing yeah it's actual nerves like playing poker is it was never exciting to me even if like people are gay for a lot of money playing pool is extreme really exciting because there's the execution the physical execution of things so you're going into flow state yeah that's what that is too much well i think my brain was wired with martial arts and competing which is extr exciting but dangerous and thrilling in the thrills are so hot at the thrills of competing or beyond anything that you can ever get from something that's non physical non threatening it's it's high level problem solving with dire physical health consequences right so all sorts of craziness involved in it and the intensity and the focus that you need so you under
and the guy on the skateboard really well though oh yeah two well that's what's scary about it to maine that could have fucking easily been me when i was seventeen or eighteen years old i understand all that shit that's why one of the things that freaks me out most about those people that are tight rope walking and doing jumping those squirrel suits for the jump off of cliffs and fly around yeah yeah yeah that doesn't always freaks me out is that i get it yeah that's were freaks me out yeah race car driving all that shit is like i understand what this guy is doing is feeding that monster in his brain that needs to be shocked and scared and thrilled and what snacks and raw new york you feel alive i mean no not just feel alive but hyper along yeah yeah hyper alive
but it's funny because you're asking about focus earlier and obviously when you go into that like that intense state where there is a high stakes high risk your attention is so super focus time slows down and you're able to see more process more so that could be part of i mean do you think you're interested in in focus because that's a part of that experience that high which you don't get right there's i mean there's lots of highs where you're not going to have a heightened focus and attention there's that and there's this state of peace that's achieved when you've overcome almost insurmountable obstacles and fear and nervousness everything else whatever weird problem that you might be dealing with with your personal life they seem so inconsequential like like when i would have like our relationship problems are girls dating some craziness about to break up i would go spar and i would like who gives of
yeah i am now in in you know i would i remember one time have this conversation is chrome's dating was like so dramatic and nonsense mike so the i guess we're breaking up i mean like what what you going to do it like i fuck i can't do this like either way like each other or we don't like each other they're going to hang out and have fun or we're not going to hang out anymore i want to do this anymore and like oh you're so cold here so it sounds like my early 20s she was do really gain perspective instead of wallowing around in this because i think there's an addictive aspect of relationship out break up make up thing of the the highs and the lows of like they're people that are addicted to arguing in relationships sure what defaulting i'd love is an addiction i mean it i mean it's literally the same process it's the narrowing of it jan on one thing the only that person get you that excited get you that
while logical tricks yeah age too because i was trying to get you to breed yeah and what's really then you get the really problematic relationships when that happens for one person and not the other and then lying and doctors yeah we got like but it's like it's why it's why somebody seems you don't understand even if you're dating and you kinda like that person but they're already there down the road there visit like they are they are they are in love they are addicted and then your behavior might seem totally crazy to me because i'm not there yet and even i liked you because you're further along in that process and that's of narrowing of attention yeah i freak out which is you know maybe if i had waited a few more weeks i might have been that i might be far enough along that it actually doesn't scare me ophiolite people fall in love at different rates
it's not it's not really that you're crazy person and i'm a normal person and therefore i shouldn't date you this is your for the biochemical processes look a little faster for you most i think like there couples who break up too soon because one of them came kind of cut further along in the addiction process on the other what a weird way to look at it but yeah i mean and also it's like the same exact person you could meet them six months later in their perfect right yeah you meet them right now maybe they have a going on in their life that the farm of slower sure right because you'll follow faster for something else getting you excited in your day right let's all that term fall in love like what exactly is going on there what does that mean right you know you just sinking up whatever personality aspects that you have holes and square eggs in round holes and everyone's trying to figure out where everything fits in and then also a weird thing where we've all had friends at all
who they are when they start dating someone it's very the strange to see to you know like they'll stop talking to some of their friends or they change their behavior pretty radically and like whoa it's got your like fitting into this mold at the other person requires like one person is you're more dominant or you're both like super fucking codependent so you need each other all the time like i have a friend this month fucker can't go anywhere without his girlfriend he doesn't do anything without her i mean he it's invite him over for podcast boom brings his girlfriend you know come over for the game she's here to great you know he does go to the movies don't do anything like that is he happy eyes a fucking mess he's a mess but two of them are a mess this like inescapable pair but maybe their happy messy happy maybe i don't know i don't know either what is happiness
that's strange i mean it's like they're not depressed they're not jumping off bridges you know the bolton then shooting heroin this all sounds good like what it what is it that makes people addicted to each other because they most certainly get addicted to each other yeah like the feeling when someone breaks up with you when you can't believe that out yeah yeah like that is like a like someone stolen something from you that they've stolen your happiness by taking off and just simply leaving you alone yeah yeah we knew they are part of you like your whole you our whole is missing a slice yeah like the whole of i know that it means that all the metaphors that people use it really feel that way yeah but isn't that logical trick just to get us to breed like you stick around long enough to make a baby and then you know fall in love with the baby so that you raise it so that baby you can go and have a baby in the sense of community that you have all sort of is addictive and it keep
you together which i mean sure survival yeah i mean that's why cooperation feels good it's like kind of feels good i mean i'm so tricky it is and like i don't know you can i mean i'm a very practical person i mean i think i try to help people feel good i want to feel good and your cooperation kindness you know those things helped society and help evolution and like we're stronger together and it feels good like that to call you i don't mind that you know evolution is kind of tricking me i mean i have two babies i've seven month old twin daughters and you know if this is a trick of biology how i feel about them totally cool with that because it feels good yeah that's biologies trick to me tells me feels good i like it thank you biology for giving me these feelings i never had before
yeah i mean you can kind of intellectual lies it down to the point where it's no longer enjoyable because it like glue isn't life itself a trick in a sense because it's really temporary remember what you can accumulate all the audis and beautiful houses and boats you want but the end of the day ok it's over you know like you use the sunrises and sunsets and you get a certain amount of time and that's it so you can in actualize that to the point really what's the point i'm just going to and now and some people do do that they almost get to this thing they can't be in the moment because they don't know how long the moment lasts and the anticipation of the mo an ending is just too freaky so like fuck this i'm out it's sort of the same thing is my friend who can't play the video game if he's going to lose and he pulls the plug i mean there's a lot of law it's the same sort of qualities and characteristics of that kind of thinking there's over intellectualizing over to the point we can't even enjoy what it is
i really want to work on this friend of yours like a figure like video games they're paid to like know what sounds like an interesting project isn't the remaining can out okay much problems i like i like i like the like how would you help somebody who can't lose like who the batteries it you should be so happy that you're trying to help them because that means you're talking about him it's like you're focusing on him is a lot i have all but no bees alive who is in america's on ethiopia live in a glass house you know it's like cain's lackeys fark yeah you got to think it's at a certain point in time that there's there's there's levels to happiness and harm the harmony that you achieve with the environment that you find yourself in and the more chaos the you create in the more problems that you create just to solve those problems
that uh that enerji keeps you from doing something else that enerji is going to block you from the other pursuits yeah absolutely yeah i mean you need to take committed action tour positive things in the of your life is again of course yes it is ever i have a kind of a funny story about that i you know i did the cold air for a few years ago and when you did that is he break character
so what if he comes not now not will not as it is he comes in the dressing room before hand and they don't do a pre show interview because they want you to be kind of off guard allen's and he comes and he says you have you seen the show okay i'm gonna be in character and i'm gonna be really stupid and stubborn and your job is to disabuse me of my stupid and stubborn ideas and they said no let me ask you a question i is you know is life a game and i was like is this if you like is he to seeing you know is this look as my only practicing some kind of witty report for the show or whatever or some like i'm trying to go into that mode and i'm like well you know yes of course it is and he's like life is a game we spend all our time playing it why are we bad at it i'm like i'm like totally thrown off mike is he being like fills
i don't blame him anyway it turned out he was actually being quite philosophical and he and he had all of these you know sort of thoughts about you know i mean he said mentioning philosophy books he'd read everything i was like i'll cases like not like a not like a so you know we like banter and he was like really thinking about that and i always add i haven't mean to return to that question and try to come up with a better answer forms and it's a complicated game and there's no instruction book that's why we're so bad at it mean it's not everybody's bad at it i wanted to people go wow this person is a really game going on yeah you know but it is just a game and essentially what what the problem is that there's loaded words like that with the word addiction is a loaded word it's a loaded term i think the word game name is a loaded term into it's a combo
heated series of events that you're trying to manage and you're trying to manage risk and reward and benefit and the positive and negative aspects of behavior essentially it's exactly the same as a game they're completely indistinguishable it's one of them is just open ended and there's you know there's no clear pathway it's a game that literally you're standing in the middle of the universe bam and especially in twenty fifteen if you have the means you can get on a plane and go to another part of the game you know you could just hop on a plane and you know we were king before this podcast started about the radio lab podcast that's out today about that by who was on my podcast corey knowlton shot that rhino like that's a guy who took the game and decided to go to a fucking place he totally doesn't belong or is never never born there whatever not and since it doesn't belong but a come three different area of the game and he's doing
and over there and everybody over in this part of the games like what the fuck are you doing over there like some guy who gets a noob and decide to sail across the world right well well well what are you doing right well he decided that he's going to go different part of the board and he's going to get in a boat and he's going to drink rainwater and try to catch fish and travel across the fucking ocean this isn't just like people are playing different kinds of games so like the guy wants to kill a rhino that's a combat game and the person wants to sail around in the boat is doing exploration is adventure game and other people are doing you know collection game reviews require resources and the rhino guys doing the collection game way is collecting bodies yeah yeah and i think the guy who's on the boat is doing the collection game two 'cause he's collecting accolades you know i made it across the ocean right when he sees a naked across it yeah the real way to do is go across the ocean don't tell anybody right
where you been last six months so you know just chilling trying to find myself well you know what you wanna boat when i the training for a marathon i was like i'm not telling anybody 'cause i wanted to like just the internal yeah i wanted to be you know 'cause it's like this weird bias some people have about runners it like they brag about it a lot like they do it to like show off you know who says that people wish they were running i really leave that yes if you run like i have my cameron kaman hands he's run two ultramarathons paid hill you know post about on his instagram or i'll show you as time or something like that he's trying to like he an athlete in these sponsored by bunch of companies in part of his gig is that he inspires people and he really feels good about that over the genuine thing that he does takes people running up these mountains but you'll see these people that like bitch about it like these guys you've got one hundred miles in twenty four hours if that's
impressive not worth it you need to go look in the mirror and find out what the fuck actually impresses you yeah you post a picture of your breakfast you can get at about the thing that they ran yeah one hundred my eggs yes i mean it's like whoa why do people get upset that you say you're going to run a marathon why would anybody get upset it's hard to run a marathon you going to run for three and a now four hours or whatever the hell your time is that so fucking long time yeah it's hard for me to twenty minutes on the elliptical machine and not get bored yeah i could keep going for a lot longer yeah but a twenty minutes my flock to my dining is is cry is get this over with when someone says they ran i'm a marathon you start to question your own resolve yes which is like one reasons why they do that you're showing your score
your game score and people getting pissed too high or fucking showing her high school though sometimes i sometimes i level post a terrable run 'cause i like you to be too inspiring that people feel like they can't do it like fuck those people that like i'll do it i'll do it slow run so that people will see like hey if you're now that it's tricking you into doing shitty scores they're tricking you that's true well there's definitely that this is a lot of people who when someone will accomplish something uh fascinated by watching the observers and one of the instagram observers are the most fascinating 'cause whenever i go to someones page someone's done something cool like you know my cameron running one hundred miles i'll look at the the negative comments and i go to their instagram page and there are almost always blocked it's always always private like locked like you have to you have to be one of their excepted friends are the comment on their pictures
because they're hiding right they're not putting themselves out there right not showing their life which in which means they don't understand the vulnerability involve like if you were if you had the experience of having other people right on your wrist stuff the same way that you were doing on someone else you might not be doing that well though playing the low they're playing tic tac toe right yes someone else is out there playing chess yeah yeah if you like the new like zing my man you're playing tic tac toe yeah like take tac toe playing yeah i mean it is kind of what it is of life is this really super complex open ended game where essentially if you live free culture like we do you know we're not living in north korea we are assigned a job and if you don't cry something happens you know you go to jail you your your game is essentially open ended yeah it's not that's one of the reasons why when people get out of jail the find themselves like instant
analyzes the is the word but they find themselves so trapped in the game of jail that that's how their brain is wired it's really extremely difficult for them to deal with open ended game of life yeah yeah i mean even for you see it with you but when someone graduate college kids who have been from the top colleges who have been taught to play the game of achieving and achieving and this really rigid structure then they get out into the world and nobody's telling them here here the things you have to do to be considered a good student or be right asphalt and then they just lose it they too much yeah because they don't they are not they have not been directing their own game right so you if you if you haven't been designing the game now you have suddenly acquired that skill for yourself is also one of the problems that some people have with career academics people that never this is
the real world they went from college to teaching college and then they also they require these rigid standards of behavior and think i know i heard about that yet about the atlantic article yeah that is was interesting because it i've been so steeped in psychology literature and a lot of the folks who play super better are traumatized and they've they've been through ptsd mmhm and it is absolutely true that avoiding triggers alongs the problem i mean so i i mean i can look at the site for latest rents a trigger warnings are actually not not going to help they're going make make weaker over time it's like we're were talking about oh i'm so scared of the bad guy i have to avoid everything that is it we we know that that's not true
when i you know when i hear about that i you know i wish i try to talk to and i tweet when that article came out i tweeted about have a lot of people following me who are you know have ptsd and they're very conflicted about whether they're supposed to avoid triggers and they like trigger warnings because they think it's going to keep them safe but for everything we now is that you need to get better at controlling your reaction a trigger avoiding it doesn't help so i can i can see why that so frustrating to people well the for the one of the most frustrating aspects of that article in particular was that what's going on and colleges today is it's a control issue yeah they're they're controlling behavior in such an extreme way that there there to penalize people for micro aggressions which is like you say something i go alright which is just a part of
fucking human interaction with like if i say something to you and you give me a sarcastic response i have to side you know what i don't enjoy communicating with her because she makes me feel bad or i have to maybe i'm fucking do she and maybe people react to me in a negative way and i should think about not i want to say or how i want to say things but rather how people might view what i'm jeff hey how they take it in and maybe i'm just an an effective communicator with what's going on here is just you know there's there's like two people playing soccer okay they're both trying to hit the ball in the collide into each other whose fault is it it's well they're both the it's just non smooth movement yep and that that sort of interaction that you would get when you're trying to hit a soccer ball it very similar to the inter actually having to two people communicating with each other yeah your e colliding people the person is not necessarily totally responsible for that collision yeah they're both sort of responsible for it and there's a
the whole dance going on with it yeah poor decision making in the moment and a lack of experience in collisions and lack of an understanding of the consequences of those conclusions all that a part of going to college in all that is a part of growing up and when you people that are shielding you from aggressions yeah that is just a part of the the human in dealing with your more hormones and emotions and yeah you're separated from your family for the first time in ireland michigan and some crazy university in you got some fat stupid teacher that's never even existed outside the real world and their dictating your behave patterns and telling you you're not allowed to use male and female pronouns anymore and i like i like the teachers i mean you now i have a lot of friends who are who are you know they teach universities sept has done i will remove the fat stupid well i'm feature let's say skinny
smart really yet or whatever but it's a job defending that i mean mean mean like physically what i mean it's just like this this blah blah loaded sort of lazy entity that is creating this environment where your your establishing this my guess is looking what's going on this is not coming from instructors are faculty but this is coming from the suit but some of the nomina on but it is certainly it certainly was i mean it it's is a definitely a younger phenomena doesn't like something i deeply entrenched people who came up i'm at my professors are totally we like friends or feathers are totally weirded out by it don't know how to handle it they're not creating that culture i missed find something coming from the students who have been raised in this culture of you know i mean it's it's a very protective cult
and you don't nobody should have their feelings hurt and ready you know nobody should experience failure or rejection me i think i feel like it's more from that culture than from anything related to the contemporary email or that's a vanity thing because isn't contemporary academia academia overwhelmingly liberal and progressive i mean i think so i on the political spectrum when you have something and that's moving in one very particular direction often passed people will try to outdo themselves or i completely not in control i mean this is the reason why i student culture would have so much impact on this is because universities are now like business models and the customer is always right i mean
it's not the professor is not the one who is who is going to buy them professors more often than not resist it's really more the level of the the the business side of a college that is trying to make you know this make make this a good customer experience for the students i mean i think that is that it's more of the divide don't think the the political affiliations of faculty is not i mean none of that is really what's going on it's really more about that students pay so much money for college now and they expect lots of perks and they expect they are they're paying for certain experience i think that is really where you're seeing a lot of the friction com because that that's pretty great younger generation is
seems to be if you look at you know what a lot of experts are saying they want they don't want the things that feel painful or feel like failure or feeling stress well if that's the case then why are they pointing out all these flaws in and all these other people's behavior to control them and flaws in the way people press themselves flaw yeah i mean it's part of it is obviously things need to change right i mean or what needs to change unlike for instance i'm a woman i play games if i log into an online video game i don't want to be called a can't every time i log and applying design it happen alot yeah of course and do you think it happens a lot because what we talked about earlier where the interaction of just dealing in text is very strange in the interaction about people being right there with each other yes i mean absolutely seems like totally unnatural right yes yes and people i mean i don't that doesn't happen to
in real life that's roughly how many people in real life say those things to nobody nobody like how bizarre right yeah all the sudden you turn into this world so isn't that function almost of the world itself being completely and natural more so than the people being any different at work i'm not sure but i mean so all of that is to say there are things that people say and do in everyday life that are legitimately offensive and i mean i don't use the terminology microagressions i don't use it to trigger warning terminology so i think we're like in this period where on one hand things you need to change in some ways you know you have nobel laureate scientists giving speeches where they say that he doesn't like to have women in the lab because either they follow if you were you fall in love with them and then you can't work together i mean when someone a nobel laureate says that to a conference of you know young scientists that that's not helpful
i don't think but when he does not know that that was taken out of context you know the full extent of eyes i mean raise iv was a joke and he was also talking about his wife because he met his wife in the lab and it is also making himself to be full is it was very self deprecate you do know the excitement i did read some sort of re reassessment of that dawkins printed the full version of what he said and it's very different also every i rent the phone i read the full version yeah so it's like so this is actually a perfect example because so if he was joking right so his intentions are totally good is it possible that it's still not helpful to make that that kind of a statement that's i think that's what people are talking about when if on one hand there's a lot of interest in trying to increase the number of win science and technology is it
that somebody would hear that and still be kind of demoted by it or kind of that have that sink in people are when they're when we're discussing these things you don't have to police peoples language but i think it's i still think it's useful to say that might not be helpful yeah there's an article in the leaked transcript the transcript what happened was the people that saw it thought it like at lee some of them thought it was funny and but there were aspects of what he said that were probably clumba see monkey or is trying to be funny and he's really just sort of an odd guy who's a scientist and people decided that this is an awesome target like let's go after it right and should make an example which happens on the i mean the whole people get shane
on the internet now that's that's what happens i mean might you know i don't have any expertise in this area so it's probably you know worth me writing about it official quote he says is strange is such a chauvinist montre like me has been asked to speak to women scientist let me tell you about my trouble with girls his trouble with girls things happen when they were in the lab you fall in love with them they fall in love with you and when you criticize them they cry perhaps we should make separate labs for boys and girls now seriously i'm impressed with the economic development of this is fucked up here of is it was it was him joking yeah but he's definitely he's joking playing on stereotypes that girls cry girls can't handle criticism i mean i'm just saying is not going say that it's
i think it's totally fine to say hey when you say these things it might result in some girl thinking wait maybe i'm not going to be a good scientist be people say the girls aren't good in the lab or whatever it is i wouldn't say it that's yeah i wouldn't say it i try to be maybe you know even when we say things like about people who play games a lot you know they're wasting their life you want to go out and do something real i don't think that's useful to say there i think that that's actually can be early damaging some modernity generalize you know men yeah this and we'll do that and girls are good at being in the lab and it's it's it's it's damaging and i think now he understands that a joke like that as innocent as is he might have intended it to be when you're reading it in a text form
clean you taken some of it out of context it can be it can be offensive it can be hurtful for someone who can consider like me how many girls were reading that they were considering a possible career in science when i don't have to deal with people like this like i don't want to i'm going to cry in your lab asshole i just want to work i want to be a scientist yeah so we need to like police people to have this conversation of so that was just sort of exposed in some ways it exposes prevalent attitudes that this guy who is this esteemed nobel winning scientist has this attitude you know that he thinks it's funny to joke around about it and like even if he's not a sexist or a bad guy him making this joke about himself being some chauvinist monster yeah and it's because one of the things is because his wife is a and feminist and so he jokes around about him being a chauvinist monster yeah you know well that makes sense yeah but i mean that's
it's all out of context and it's all also you're dealing with a guy who's who's real focuses his re search not social interaction he's not like a nuanced speaker is not a guy who is a carefully considered speaker who gets on stage and thinks about everything and the impact of all i mean like we were talking about like awkward interaction that people might have in college well this guys awkward interaction is him being forced to write a speech like if he did this a bunch of times you probably get really way batter and you if you shut down with him alone in you guys are just talking over a glass of wine maybe you'd understand how his brain works better maybe i would have been more useful i mean if some offend you it's more you will have a conversation about it than to just start you know yeah but it's fun the log and shit all this guy is gay
all these white yeah famous or also somebody will write a book about the neurochemistry of outrage soon because it's a it's it's own high you know it's recreational record national outrage is without a doubt a real thing right now and i think that that's what's going on in colleges and that people are finding when you're in college when you were talking about the addiction that people have to video games and one of the things that sort of stimulates that addiction is if you're trying to avoid things in your regular lie well if you're in college the overwhelming anxiety of being a young person who has gone from being living with their parents going to high school now you're in college and you are just a couple years away from the cliff of real world take your fuckin sliding towards it you're trying to define it and redefine it and change it and establish yourself and then along the way comes things that you can be angry at well you will point your fucking fury there are the unmeasured or unbalanced fury at those things
it doesn't necessarily make sense but it makes to you because what you're really doing is you're avoiding the angst of social anxiety of of sexual injection and all the shit that makes a person feel weird things and you channel that towards microagressions or you channel that towards someone treat you deciding to the address you with a male or female female like there's a lot of weirdness to in a person and that that but you know it's the last thing i want to say about this is part of it is i think people just trying to make new roles for the game right
no end and when you're trying to change the rules of the game that is really upsetting if you're in the middle the game yeah i had a game of it a lot wait totally yeah i can't do that now and g we've always been here and she yeah yeah yeah yeah i think you're playing soccer you can't kick the ball anymore with your feet like right here in the middle of the game right right right so but that it doesn't mean as a game is i'm say it doesn't mean that there isn't a better game that actually could have different rules but it's really upsetting to be in the middle of the game and have somebody say wait
right those are the rules yes out you know maybe we should maybe we should i don't know i don't know how to do it better because i mean look i'm a progressive person and i'm glad that things are changing in society in lots of ways you know that i'm excited about but what makes you happy what do you what do you think is good about the changes in society in a progressive way i'm i'm really glad that we have marriage equality now i'm really excited about that i'm glad that i mean turn it and maternity leave you know becoming more p having longer term leave and for the same like paternity leave for dads as a new parent i am really excited sure he's doing that and i like i like you know i like that were so talk about income inequality i mean optimistic that there will be changes in that direction and i i think that i think the black lives matter it's hugely important movement i think
so i think there's a lot of conversations going on right now where people are angry i have struggled or feel like they've been playing a rigged game and so it's not it's not gonna be pleasant and not all the tactics are going to be effective for good either but but the general attitude is definitely moving in a more progressive direction i think so and even as somebody who has been you know i've i've had twitter you know hordes yelling at me because they thought that i was breaking one of the new rules of
our supposed to like what the people your cell might one of the biggest as i had was about that my recommendations for playing tetris after a trauma so they've been multiple randomized control studies out of oxford university showing that if you play tetris within twenty four hours of a traumatic event it will reduce the flashbacks you have the severity of flashbacks and other ptsd symptoms because it occupies your brain and prevent your brain from kind of locking in an obsessive compulsive way on the trauma right this is i think this is incredibly important advice that everyone should know kind of like stop drop and roll you know if you catch on fire you know what to do everybody should have tetris on their phone and have it available to them if because i know having suffered flashbacks from my
head injury how i mean i would have nightmares and beat of which i was hitting my head i would feel it as if it real i'd wake up and i'd be convinced that i had hit my head in the middle of the night and was going to have this experience all over again just nightmares constant so i know how bad is no one to to do it when i started tweeting about it people i got told that they need to be like trigger warnings on my tweets because i was mentioning ptsd and i might make somebody out like a trauma that they'd experienced in well they're trying to change the game yeah so it's like i understood i don't you know i've i've been on the other side of it where people have said that i'm doing it wrong but at the same time i recognize there people who are suffering or an re or they have been at a disadvantage because of the way the game is rigged and so i'm okay with this is their being like we're all gonna be uncomfortable for awhile as these things change and
that's you know so you're uncomfortable with being unjustly accused of being and of we bring out the scientific research that shows that the game can help you with trauma yeah i mean i i think i'm with that i've i've i'm gonna keep doing it you now i understand that the people who say it are hurting the people who who are telling see that i'm triggering that so irrational i think it all irrational behavior like that should either be ignored or shit on i really do i just think it's dangerous i think it's dangerous when it gets pointed out you're pointing out the scientific aspects of a very specific activity that's very good trauma and they're saying that you shouldn't talk about that now that's nonsense that's why i still talk about it i don't want to get into a fight with them about now you certainly don't you should ignore them or shit on them if you depending on how you feel but i think that
there's there's definitely i like i like how were dispatched to finding a life is like a giant game or is equal to a giant game because i think that that's what's going on also with the reaction the negative reaction to progressive thinking now like i was tweeting something about this woman in kentucky that was trying to stop people from getting gay marriage licenses and i really i took few days where i wasn't paying attention to twitter that much and didn't know that there was this giant movement supporting this woman and i went to mike huckabee's fucking twitter page and saw that this crazy old asshole was like saying that there's a war against christians and that like hashtag religious liberty and so i was like that doesn't religious liberty doesn't mean you enforce your religion on other people like that so crazy and there was so much below i got so many people tweeting at me angrily tweeting at me for saying like
if we did something about ted cruz about how ridiculous his views are on gay marriage and like that he's probably gay and i can be bliss in a way that i talk to super feminine like this like how many times we have to see this with these men right you have a bit that i used to do my act there's two types of people that hate gay marriage is either you really dumb or you're secretly worry the decks are delicious those are the people and like this guy is like there's something going on here why we care so much about two people that are in love that but watching the p they're angry that the game is being redefined and there was all this it was all this christian stuff that was attached to it like well guess what guess what else it says not to do in the bible it says not to get divorced like this lady the same lady who's been divorced three times she's on her fourth marriage guess what else it says you're not supposed to have tattoos all these people are tattooed is religious symbols on them you gotta on your arm and you tattooed it you suck and you got to read the whole book crazy like the things that they choose
and it what it is is like trying to they're trying to define the world that they're playing in yeah trying to define again i think it's important because even though i might disagree i mean i vehemently disagree with people whose perspective seem to be filled by hate but i think it's important to still try to have the empathy or that the mental insight to understand why does this make them feel so bad i think what you just said knew the feeling that you thought you understood the rules me religion as a set of rules he thought even so that you're you're playing the game are right you're doing it right and it is it is psychologically distressing to have somebody else tell you were playing a different game yeah you know your game socks and you're not going to play it anymore it
i i try to understand where those feelings are coming from because if you're gonna change people's minds you know you have to i think you have to acknowledge that they are in a real they are really in distress about this you know that i'm doing this to to be jerks i mean they before this change is transferred to them why are they in distress about something that doesn't directly affect them because of what you just said because it is it is it feels it's they have committed to a framework a set of rules and put that's it once you're in it you're in it and and you know when playing a game you always try to stop the cheaters and you protect the boundaries of the game that's some minds that you get into and they just they think they're just doing is my country that was established by christian values the fucking games locked he can't change rules that's it
he does seem like we was kind of touched on something here this is this has been a really good one for me as so the overall looking at the whole existence as instead of defining it by the word game but looking at it with almost the same sort of attitude or approach that you would look at a game is very beneficial good it's worked for maine your eyes got big ling saucers like you like you did it you did it you scored you made it happen yeah i think also like the ebb and flow of culture like the things that are seemed to definitely even even though i resist like this nonsense about microaggressions and trigger warnings and stuff like that i'm very happy that things are moving in the direction of acceptance very happy that you know like you can be whatever the fuck you want you decide you're a woman today go ahead as long as you don't hurt anybody who cares this guy want
wear dresses and you want he wants you to call him jane now fine ok so these two guys want to get married to each other terrific you know these people want to stop wearing makeup and they want to what do you give a shit who cares who cares or they want to dye their hair blue that's fine too like eventually we'll all figure out that we are all just unique in visuals that are a part of this gigantic super organism and the most conducive way or the most harmonic way harmonious wait for us to interact with each other is to fuck with each others path the least whatever path you're on your way in your game as long as it doesn't like negatively affect people as long as you're not a destroyer you know out there your path is to burn down to the beatles house as your path is to steal your path is done to hurt people is that's not going on why care and then ultimately once that is established i think then we will focus on ok what are our rear real issues are
issues aren't gay people getting married to each other a real issues the people that are actually are burning houses down the people that stealing these are the real issues that people have people that are not micro aggressions but actual aggressions people that are actually committing crimes against each other people there and one are they doing that well what is wrong with their game what happened to them what what series of events of place them in this sort of exertion yeah yeah because it's not i mean people don't get into that in a vacuum no i think that's also something you realize once you have children like you have now and as a father one of the things is changed radically in my life is seen people now like when i mean people i see them as babies that have grown up i don't see them isn't being in a static state yeah you know and
it's very strange like even that i mean i look at them and even though i got a i think of them as like what happened to that person but you know that's like it's that's i i practices and buddhism and that's like one of the big latest meditations is to picture people as babies like when you feel hate for somebody try to visualize them all the way down to the little baby self and picture what they look like as a baby and to think about who they were when they were that baby before all of life happened to them to make them into somebody that has now triggered these you know hate feel of anger is also in the womb you know i was talking to my horror so famous pro football player who's talking to me about kids that grow up in horrible varmints dangerous vault environments
the mother has all the cortisol in her brain while the child in the womb and the kid literally grows up like with a short temper literally there dave developed out of the womb mike constantly about stress in danger yeah yeah all of that of that feral cats but that was farrah little raised and he was fucking terrified of everything from the time he was a baby and i locked myself in a room with him when he was a kitten because the only way bond with him i stayed with him for like put a bunch of books in the room and cat food and uh box under like you made were hanging out and when i come near when you feel like you just jump on the walls and like you've never seen anything like a feral kitten i mean he was really little to just a couple months old and when i would get to him and pick him up he would start purring if i only somebody loves me like like but then when you put him down like the same
pat which is because his brain was programmed from the time he was a little baby and there was not a lot he could do i couldn't say that cats asshole will know that fucking cat was born under an apartment building you know his mom was like running away from traffic and trying to eat rats or whatever the they could kill yeah i think this is one of the reasons why game thinking is so powerful because you diss him out and see the bigger stronger us that it's it's there's always a bigger game and more pieces of play and you're getting other people's you know strategies or actions are you know or the rules you know in being able to zoom out and see that makes you feel i think what you have more perspective more wisdom and maybe more compassion for other people that's also why people like to rightly so chris i very narrow minded small town thinking small little environments insulated environments that are very you know
very critical criticizing or very you know just just have their way set and they don't a wide variety of experiences they can draw upon or they don't have a broad nuanced view of the board that they're playing on yeah so this is like this is giving me a lot of what are food for thought about i mean the links between social change and game full thing there's something there i think also as time is going on and this is one thing the positive aspects of social media end of the internet itself is that we're getting more and more information instead of just accepting these preconceived notions that we have about different groups of people now we're being supposed to so much data it's just inadvertently or
inarguably changing the way we view those groups and that you're forced to like when you see like this black lives matter thing you see all these peaceful protests where these people are talking eloquently speaking and showing video after video of police brutality and then i've had i had a cop on michael would who was baltimore retired baltimore police officer that talked about very openly talked about the institutional racism and about how they had found papers from the 1970s that were describing how to behave in certain environments that were exactly the same as what's going on now it's like this is a fucking system this is that i don't think that attitude existed just a few years ago and people we're looking at all that data now and it's slowly coming around and even the hard liners are dropping you know if they were at a ten now there at eight or seven wells fargo and kids you need to go to school or some
you know it's like everyone is sort of slowly recognizing the pieces that are in play it's a lot more complicated than we want to you know just narrowly sort of define them in these these really simplistic terms where it's not simple there's a a series of interactions that are going on all over the globe are human being they are trying to find their way in there also realizing somewhere along the line that their parents weren't these all knowing creatures neither were their parents neither were the pro roosevelt or fucking abe lincoln they were all people that were trying to find their way as well and this is a group effort it's a group effort still going on it's not even remotely done it's not even close yeah so it's ok so instead of seeing the bigger picture we will see the bigger game and that will be that will guide us yes bring it all back to super better alright you gotta get outta here going to catch a flight so thank you very much i'll put you
your video up on twitter an will put your the link to your book which is available right now right well it drops next tuesday but you can buy it now or you buy it now in yet but you can get it next tuesday all right with thank you so much we really really appreciate it all right and what's your twitter dress again it's advanced game a v a n t t a m ny you can just search for my name jane games it'll come up our beautiful thank you so much awesome time thank my friends for tuning into the mother fucking podcast thanks to draftkings dot com that's draftkings dot com use the code rogan and played for free this weekend for a shot at ten million dollars apart of ten billion dollars jamie jesus christ that's a lot of money whoadraftkings dot com so but you buy me undies underwear i'm wearing right now today in each and every fucking day go to
meundies dot com slash rogan to get twenty percent off your first order what are you sing for you fucking savages thanks all so to stamps dot com use the promo code jre for this special offer a four week trial plus uh ten dollars bonus offer which includes a digital scale to calculate exact postage for letters and packages and up fifty five dollars in free postage or also brought you by on that's onnit use the code word rogan save ten percent off any and all supplements you mother fuckers and of course we brought to you by caveman coffee company each and everyone of these podcasts is fueled by caffeine so how i do it fucking caffeine and alpha brain so i fucking do it people chasing
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lacey caveman coffee co dot com go there by the best tasting coffee you ever going to fucking get your life including multi coffee subscriptions all right folks that's it at the end have reached it thanks so much we'll be back tomorrow with my friend sebastian sebastian maniscalco fucking hilarious stand up comedian and a great guy he showtime special out and just all around very funny very cool dude so that'll be tomorrow until then enjoy your life and get a kiss for you here he means
Transcript generated on 2019-10-15.