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and playing games to improve the effects of a can kush and that she suffered she's a game developer super into vision and a very interesting woman, and I really really enjoyed talking to her. Her book is coming out next week. You can pre order it now, but after talking to are you're going to really appreciate what you went through What this book is all about, so without any further ado, please welcome Jane Mcgonigal the Joe Rogan experience trying my day, Joe Rogan podcast by night all day, all right Jane what's happening, and he you are here. You made it home excited too thanks for doing that, appreciate it. So your stories are very fascinating story. You got a brain injury, an you decided to make a game to help your brain recover. Now what led

you to even attempt something like that? I've never heard of anything like that in the past. Well, I had been designing games professionally and researching them for ten years. By the time I hit my head, and it was not my first instinct. Oh, I have a brain injury. Let me make a game, but you know a month into the recovery, I wasn't getting any better. I was really depressed and anxious, and I mean I was it- was like the lowest point of my life, and I knew from my research that when we play games you know we have more optimism, were more determined group better able to ask people for help right to team up with this, be your allies and I just figured well. This is like the worst. I've ever felt my life. Maybe if I can bring some of that game, full spirit to recovery, I could kind of jump start my brain back into healing. So what was the nature of your injury?

I mean it was it started out as just a normal concussion, and how did you get that? So? This is my public service and really episode. I was standing up from underneath an open cabinet and I'm a runner safe, really strong legs and I was just in a hurry and I'm just full force right up into the corner of the cabinet hit my head. It was like classic, you know. My husband was joking around you know who's the president, and I can remember who the President was- and it's like. Oh, that that really mad yeah, I, like you, got hit in the head. You couldn't remember this is Brock Obama. They. Was an all I could remember was it's not George Bush anymore I can't remember who it was wow. So just standing up and hitting the edge of the cabinet was an open, open cat was entering cabinet. So this is the PSA. Is you know, shot cabinet doors because apparently now I've now learned after this happened to me that this happens to a lot of people and you can get at a serious head injury as like a football player. By doing this

ow wow. So just standing up so stood up. Quick ban blocked your head can't go unconscious. I did not go unconscious scene. I was Sol stars and everything, but it you know a lot of concussions. It takes a few hours. The brain starts to swell, and it's not until later that day that you really start to feel like something really wrong. So is that what happened here? Yes, yeah and- and you know what it was, there's no internal bleeding or anything, and so you know the doctor said you'll be fine and you know give it a week. Maybe a couple weeks I come back after a month. They tell me you know some people if it doesn't heal in the first month it takes three months and if it doesn't heal and

once it might be a year, and if it's not a year, maybe you're stuck like this forever. Were you experiencing the classic symptoms like you couldn't like stare at the sun, the sun might would bother your eyes loud noises. I mean all light like if I I I I would try to go into like a of whole foods of price and lights would feel like. I was like under fire from weapons. I mean I couldn't I was. I was in bed basically for three months. Everything, like all stimulus, would make me nauseous and migraines, and everything so it was it so it started out normal concussion, but then it's kind of unraveled into what they call post concussion syndrome, which is, which is, I think, that I didn't know existed, but a lot of people and the concussions take up to a year. To heal yeah. They can well I from working for the: u of c I've seen people that neglect those yes and it gets really ugly yeah. I also see people that were great fighters there's,

dining Tj Grant, who was in line for UFC title shot, got a concussion not even from getting kicked or punched. It was from, grappling exchange just bumped his head on something I will if somebody's knee or someone's hip or something like that and then was never the same again and is never fall again and it sounded like. I think, almost two years yeah and I mean that's something: I've gotten actually pretty active in the reef, community and trying to share information with the first week of recovery, really determine if you're going to go into this extended nursing. Take you three months, six months a year, if you're, not if you're not resting the first week,

I called you just do nothing, I mean they call it cognitive rest and basically you want to not do anything that is feels difficult for you, and so for me, I couldn't read. I could only watch tv shows that already seen before 'cause having to process plot Gnuplot was not was not helpful. That's what we watching Buffy the vampire slayer because of all the chameleon times, and it's it's a and yet you know, keep the lights off if they keep sunglasses on indoors, but the first forty, and then, after that, the first week, if you can avoid over stressing your brain, you have a much better chance to recover within the one to two

period as possible. Yeah and people don't know people that they try to. I try to go right back to work. I was in the middle of writing my first book and it was due in a couple months. I'm like I can't miss my deadline. I've got to do this. I got part them, it could barely I'm like. Can we see the screen on it but you're when you're? You know when you have a concussion you're, not thinking. Clearly you are not a rational person. You're just you just have to do. Is I have to try and People look at you and be like what's wrong with you, you are, you know totally out of it. Why are you trying to work but you're? Not you don't have that same kind of rational decision making ability. So sometimes you know friend, are you know a loved one needs to take you aside and say: I'm not letting you do anything for this first week. You've just got to let your and this is correcting from wrong, but it's relatively new our understanding of what takes place after concussion and what you have to do to recover

yeah. I know there's just last year was a big study that came out showing that, four months after concussion, your your brain, is still different. They're still, that's like a kind of a scarring that happens, our guests gap, that certain parts of the brain will still be the second four months after, even if you think you're feeling fine, which means that you're still vulnerable. You know if you were to get hit again, it would be more dangerous and and if you're still feeling symptoms after four months, you know that's why it's like, when you, you know, cut yourself open it, you get the scab, you can't be picking up the scab by doing things that are triggering your symptoms yeah. While so who was it that told you? You got to settle down out? Well my you know, my doctor said that, of course, I'm I mean I'm a science geek, that's I've a phd! It's like my background as having my husband. Can google to Google scholar, searches for dramatic brain injury research because I couldn't use a computer. It's like you got

figure? Is this normal and, like I said, feeling suicidal that was that was new for me and I'm, like literally having him google suicidal thoughts, jeez concussion, because I'm like is this? Am I really suicidal like in my rationally thinking I'm never going to work again and my husband got to take care of me. I should just end it, which is what I was some of the voices in my head were saying, but it didn't feel you know it's that didn't feel myself, and so fortunately he was finding articles like wait. One in three people with a concussion have suicidal thoughts, and that is actually a reaction to the neurochemistry. When you have a concussion, you don't have dopamine in the reward pathway reward pathways, which means your brain can't anticipate anything good in the future. You become like completely unable Imagine that you'll feel better that good things will happen for you and that's just like perfect neurochemical foundation for

so. You were able to remember how you used to think and so you knew this is not the way. I think yeah I mean it was I had I had like a. I was able to distance myself a little bit from the thoughts where you know I would say I would you know, because I was at home. I wasn't going where I would say my husband's like I feel like I have this for you set saying you should kill yourself and I would I would talk about it because I didn't it. I mean I think. If you talk about it it it becomes less. You know this feeling that you have that you have to really believe in and more like this thing that you can look at and try to figure out and, and that and so was like it just felt so

weird to me because I'm like, why would I don't know I've? Never I never had that before and once they knew that it was a symptom of concussion, rather than Jane has figured out that her life is terrible and logically she wants to kill herself. I was able to live with that, and you know the research literature says they go away as a brain heals, so I just thought: okay, it might still might still hear that voice. For you know a few weeks or a few months, but I know that that

a symptom of healing and not have actually feels so I'm just gonna get on with it now. Is there a medication that you can take what this is going on? Anything that speeds up the healing or anti inflammation medication right. So this is this is what's so hard about. Post concussion syndrome is there's nothing that's been shown to speed it up. I mean I was offered really powerful, anti anxiety, meds, depression Mads. I chose not to take them because I just didn't want to go down that road. But I've never taken them before and there's no known therapies. People have tried to do like oxygen, deep oxygen therapy and like hyperbaric chambers yeah, did you try any I did not try that, but actually this is a sort of very exciting for me, because there's no,

good treatment for this when my game works so well for me- and I saw other peoples are using, it worked well for them. We were able to get a grant from the n. I H to Texas, with young athletes their highest university medical research center. We just release our findings last week that the game that I invented did improve the post concussion syndrome, isn't a hundred percent of the people who used it compared to only fifty percent of people who didn't don black. So this is one of I mean this is one of the first validated treatments that can, you know, reduce the headaches and the knowledge of, in the confusion in the you know, difficulty. So how did you get to the point where you wanted to experiment with the game? Your recover, slowly mean slow is this. Taking like how many months afterwards, we still kind of well, this thirty four days which I will I will never I don't like it. It was emblazoned into my memory

thirty, four days after I hit my head, that I was I mean I was completely desperate. I'm at I literally was saying to myself: I'm gonna kill myself or I'm going to turn this into a game because I mean those two options so strange. I know, but you might be the in history. That's ever said that so much warmer turns into again. Yes, yes! Well, you know, as I was in the middle of writing. My first book, which was all about the psychology of games- and I just thought to myself- I should I got to prove it. You know I I in this book saying that playing games makes us happier stronger and more resilient. I think I this I mean, there's all other kinds of proof in the book, but I'm like I'm going to live it, and- and that was just I just I didn't know how else to provoke the positive emotions and when we play games and his whole list of positive emotions that we feel when we play games like curiosity and excitement and all and wonder

pride and she's like I got to get some of these emotions, because my doctor had said the more depressed and anxious you are, they can actually slow down. The healing process is actually detrimental fate if you, if you fuel, if you can feed the fresh anxiety detrimental in in terms of measurable effects or detrimental in terms of the way you feel like that, is that the from the brain's ability to heal that the neurochemistry of depression is not conducive to that. So literally being depressed can slow down the physical healing of the brain itself. Yes, and no answers to the like you know so try not to worry I'm like oh jeez. I know it's like I can't get out of bed my books do. I can right. My husband had lost his job a few months earlier and I'm like, I may never work and I'm going to be like a police state. Now this is like, and maybe if I can stand, you know right yeah

so so the thirty four days yeah. What is the thirty four days were when I was at its worse? Is that I just I mean it? Just everyone kept saying Oh you'll be fine in a few days, so we find in a few weeks and then I went and saw my doctor after thirty days and then the doctor said oh yeah. By the way some people don't get better in a month those people it often takes three months and for people who don't get dirty mind center often takes a year and if you're not better year than might be like this? forever- and I was alone- oh my god it just it made me kind of freaked me out. So did you fix paramount with things during this time like when your reach searching I mean The only thing that I really experiment with with this tiny eat things with like make as you make it for you, may get sick, which is supposed to be good for

for brain healing, and there is some scientific literature on that. Where I mean doctors will say, eat walnuts, you know Donna yeah, because that's a good like as it's it's it's available to them up real good. It's got me as was taking a capsule. Can absorb things better from food mmhm. Sometimes what is Wala Wala Ince's? It's like omega three omega six. Try at that and fish for uh, I'm one of those weird vegans. Oh, how dare you what about a hemp oil does that have natural camp is good. Help is really good, too yeah, but at the time I don't know the only thing I could kind of get it together to do Liz walnuts one a threat? Yeah did you know bill? Romanowski is out of life. What do I with that level? Well, as football player, it was a famous football player and he suffered a lot of concussions and created something called Nuro one and

it's a nootropic blend and he created it to deal with some of the symptoms that he had had or some of the repercussions from all the head trauma that yeah yeah they're wondering if you never tried anything like have not. I know there are a lot of that sort of nutraceutical like interest in experimenting with that. I did not try that because of the dopamine. I was wondering, like yeah tone in like five h, teepees without good for yeah rebuilding, Sir toner building blocks of certain I didn't get it together to try any of that, so you were just really struggling. I always try going, I mean I would. I would like. I would sit on the bathroom floor and like cry for hours, but quietly again want my husband to fly out nice very polite. Depression seems counter intuitive to someone who doesn't know anything like me, though, you're saying that you could only watch like Buffy the vampire slayer, because it already seen it before, but playing a game like decent part of

so emulating right now, an actually I couldn't play video games I would try to play like peggle I was like table, will be easy, it's like a kind of, pinball game where you shoot little pimples around pop pegs and it's and they played like the Hallelujah chorus every level you complete. So it's like yeah, I'm successful there like pie I prayed for for me. I think I'm like that'll, really help help me. But even that was too stimulating, so I can play video. So the game I met was not a video game. We did Salim make an app in a web version. So people could could other people can play But it was more like just a set of rules that I would follow. You know like you wouldn't like. Oh, how do you play hide and seek, or how do you play poker like learn the rules and play so I just started making up rules for myself about doing things that you would do in a video game like collecting, powerups or

spotting like making lists of the bad guys and all the ways like where they would show up in my strategies or for fighting them and coming up with a class list so like what something I can do in the next twenty four hours to feel better, not like something concrete that I can accomplish, and so just starting to approach my recovery with these really concrete game, full strategies and really the the you know. The first thing I did. Was I adopted this secret identity. Like my avatar, I was going to have an avatar in my recovery and that was Jane. The concussion slayer because I'm like I'm going to be like Buffy and Buffy did not choose to be the Slayer right, like they just you're, the slayer you have to save the world and I'm like, I did not choose to hit my head So I'm going to be like her and just tries to throw up occasion and kind of try to tap into my sense of determination and being a badass, and so what did you?

Do like, after you took on this persona or adopted the idea of this avatar like what did you do like what power ups like who are the bad guy? yeah, I'm back. Is there anything that would trigger my symptoms? So you know bright lights, a crowded space. You know conversation, I mean everything, but the thing with with bad guys and, like you know, in a video game Oh there is there's a monster. You don't run away. You gotta figure out how you're going to tackle it or get past it. So in the same is true with recover. From any kind of injury or illness. You have to keep testing the limits right, 'cause. Otherwise, you wind up never getting better. You kind of convinced that you're just flat on your back forever, and this is sort of an aside, but as I was doing all the research for this new book, I found out that the number one predictor of disability after a back injury is avoiding things that make your back hurt early on during recovery. So you would think like. Oh, you have to

you know, don't don't do anything that will make your back worse, but the longer you keep that mindset, that's the number one predictor of who becomes chronically disabled. You not able to work or their their life is affected and major way, and it's not. The severity of the injury is not the severity of the pain and so all kinds of injury and illness. Now, because you get stuck in that pattern, you never really so you get stuck thinking yourself is injured, yes, yeah, and so you know it's like, but with all of these things are still careful balance, so you have to recognize that the bad guys are bad. I can't I can't go out and being a crowded space for three hours can go to like a lady gaga,

answered- which I really wanted to do my skin not going to do that. I that that is kind of like I'm like the next time she comes through that'll, be like one of my epic wins when I can go see her, but like you can do little things to tax. Let me go into the whole foods and see how many minutes I can make it before the symptoms come back to kind of like testing. Today was thirty seconds I got to leave maybe next week, it'll be five minutes and then use kind of start to get your life back, because you don't want to get on that course towards seeing yourself is, is kind of chronically disabled, so so that you know I'd. You come up with these ways to to battle the bad guys you know every day in in, in the version we tested with the n I h, that's the game is activate three power ups, a day so from in that might been eating all nights or like cuddling, my my dog. Has that made me feel like a safe and happy so anything that provokes a positive emotion if you're depressed you have to really find what are the things that can get through that depression

and still make you feel good. So you don't cuddle my dog eat walnuts. Do you do three of those a day one bag. I battle a day where you really test the limits to see if you're getting better and one class today, which is the smallest possible thing you can do that. Will kind of move you in the direction of your goal or recovery, or just feel like something productive that you want to do so one time I my class, I decided to bake cookies for the braces the coffee place down the stairs. I'm like I. I because I could feel like I can do anything for myself so much, I'm gonna big cookies. For someone else today and as a result, randomly amount of getting free coffee for a year, 'cause they were like could not be,

if somebody came like down with this giant plate of like cookies, fresh out of the oven, but I did not did not expect that, but that was just like you know, find one thing I can do today that will have a positive impact and that's that's a sort of there's other stuff. You know in the game, but that's sort of the main you're. Basically, using game game models to kind of structure your life to make sure that you're staying engaged, not hiding, you know, actually making progress to getting better. This sounds really difficult like like more difficult than I think most people would ever imagine recovering from a concussion would be. I think most people would think that I wouldn't want to say most people even just say what I would think I had a concussion. I don't think since I was probably twenty an. I would think that what it would be like would be like. Oh man, I feel like shit. Let me just lie down here. I put ice in my head, I'll watch tv or something and I'll just go I'll. Take a lot of

apps right when you think it'll feel like a hang over something that the problem is that your thinking becomes model too. So it's not just that you have these physicals and you're not able to think clearly you're, not thinking like yourself and can really lead to a lot of confusion, bad decisions, you know people they try to hide the severity of the symptoms because they think that it will you know, other people will judge them or their debt like there's a lot of it. That's very common. I've now learned with concussions people hide the severity of symptoms because it's like you, just you're you're, not thinking clearly, and you think it's important that other people not really see, but I think I will become less of weird spokes person, slash guru for compassion because of my TED talk about it. So, every day literally, I hear on Facebook or twitter from someone who's just been can cost in our

like what do I do, and I actually I mean I you know have like: okay, I'm your ally and I'm, like always, you know sending direct messages to like ran people out on checking in on them to see food. Everything, because it's not even like your friends and family will not understand. They will think you'll be out on the couch for three days and they expect I'll be back to normal, and they don't understand why, three months for months later, you're still struggling. It's not I mean it is not been discussed enough, although I think that's changing now, people, especially with so many soldiers coming back with long term symptoms of the concussions now. The other thing that's confusing to me with this is that in the beginning, the first stage of your concussion, it's critical. You do nothing right, but then, after a while you're like pushing it like how how much time has been a whole foods for free right, yeah like many people, would think that that's

sort of counterintuitive yeah yeah well in beginning, is when the brain needs the most resources, right, so you don't want the early stages like yeah, how many days so hang on the city's you re it'll, say between forty eight hours to one week is the most crucial stage where you want when you want the most cognitive rest, and you want to avoid a basically just, exhausting the brain because blood anything you do that's cognitively demanding it there x blood flow to different regions of the brain. You don't want your brain spending time, trying to figure out your email. Instead of your because there's only there's only so much blood to flow around and you don't you don't want it to be tent and try and do an email will require so much more effort from you than it normally would so it's sort of like vicious cycle.

Now, eventually the rain kind of gets into this sort of no spaces where it's like. Okay, our work in our you've got yours got kind of your thickened up lesions. It's going to take you know four months to kind of resolve and and and be back to normal. So you can, you can test you can saying gauge and and not being engaged, will fuel depression anxiety. So partly it's like you're trying to balance the mental health with the cognitive health. I mean you can't if you were to do cognitive rest for a month, if, if you being in solitary confinement, and we know that that has really bad mental health effects, so you're kind of figuring this out, as you go along, there's really not a road map that set out no one's ever done this before and you just sort of take your game, designing skills and apply what you know about the positive effects of games

and you experiment on yourself like a guinea pig yeah. Is he worried it might be fucking your brains out what could be worse than what This is already happening and I mean like literally then forty eight hours, the that fog, that like super black, you know you wanted, I fog was gone and it was it none of that the symptoms and go, and it was asking cost as I was that that feeling of hopelessness really want away and because of the fun of the game, you know what it's it's so this is. This is why I wrote the book because I didn't really understand why work and you work from and then I put the rules online and people started. Writing me

from all over the world that they were using it and not just for concussions and people were writing, for you know I've cancer. I just had knee surgery, someone you know who is just like nose with ale last starts playing it and I'm it it. It seems to be. It seem to be extremely effective at treating depression, anxiety and also making people feel just stronger, just look better versions of themselves, and I did not understand it, and- and this is, I see this all the time- people because there can be a lot of skepticism- that a game can be helpful during a really serious challenge in your life. It sounds like trivial, sound stupid, so I freely acknowledge. I didn't understand why it worked. It seemed kind of absurd to me for people with much more serious problems, and I had to so that's why I wrote the book is why I started doing people trial in the studies we've been doing for the last few years to try to understand, because I didn't

All I knew was that it seemed to be having all these positive effects and that that was, I mean even to a game designer like myself, who believes in the power of games. I was really taken off guard, so how did you structure it? Like? Did you first start off just coming up with things like power pills or walnuts, and God guys or depression, and how did you like? Put this whole thing together? Yeah I mean I just don't making Youtube videos which is really funny. You can go back and look at like the first Youtube videos of me. It's like, I don't think so like. Why are making a game for my concussion or something like that. And first you to video you made what you will. You stay still suffering yeah yeah yeah. How many months was it in two? I thought this is, I think, on day, thirty four. This is like the day. I'm like a making a game, I'm going to make you explaining the game. What's it like to when you watch the video now it's crazy, because I can't you can see, I can't think of words. I I I I

yeah yeah yeah. What is it? What would it be under? Why I'm making a game concussion, something like that Jamie I'll, find it yeah 'cause it's like you can see. I can't I you see how fast I talk my I'm like talking really slow grosses of five years ago, yeah and how long do you think it was before you felt like one hundred percent? You again I mean I'm like ninety nine percent

yeah I mean there's still not a hundred percent. No, this is it yeah, there's still some things like certain lights, I can't be around well like it's a crate says it's like it feels like I'm having five years later, yeah. Let's, let's play this record there. I am. I am making this video to clean and checks thanks, bye in June hi Jim in a can you help me with that are covering up process after I hit my head and that confession, and that was it to go and the recovery has been very slow and hard. So it's getting to the point where I feel like. I need a game to help me get through it. I was doing some research today about

post concussion syndrome, which is what I definitely would have and that's where you can trouble concentrating truck oh I mean I probably just sitting there with my laptop in my lap, serious planning mental problem, solving, that would give me a concussion I'm having a very hard time. I was not a Bro and I get dizzy a lot. I get headaches and nauseous like thing where you could really say clearly: you're moving way way, slower, you're talking way slower, you could see you're struggling there, yeah unless you're on meth right now. I am a naturally very energetic person, it's fascinating to me that you're, not one hundred percent. Still, yeah, I mean you know, and I'm not sure and Harley why I was knocked out once when I was younger like knocked out for like five minutes, I fell off a sliding board.

What's a sliding blade is like a Philadelphia thing. I don't know like a slide like at the playground that you ok, I'd, I think in Philly we called it sliding boards and I fell right the side and hit my head on a cement block. Oh yeah. That was really young. That was my first concussion that's probably what's going on too is repeated concussions right now. What's interesting is I was so young I did not. Is like I don't know it's like for something I actually did. Know that I'd had a concussion. I thought this was my first concussion in two thousand and nine in the doctor, like. Oh, if you had a concussion board, know because obviously every He knows now. If you have more than one it can start to, the healing will take longer. I didn't know until like a month in my injury, I'm talking to my parents and they mentioned Well, you know the last time you had a concussion. You were feeling better much faster and I'm like what what what last time. Oh, you remember when you fell off the sliding board, when you were, you know, remember

anything when they are for right now my five year old doesn't remember anything which is for you know when you broke your collarbone and like You remember like wearing a sling for a collar on, but I didn't know that I had a concussion So even though you were four and then the next one, you were an adult, it still made. I mean it's I'd is like bees. The fines does not quite understand how this works at like if, if the cumulative knocks have to be all within the same few years or if we can stretch out over a lifetime, I try not to think about it too much because I'm like you, know God, if it happens again that I'm real. See you know, but I'm actually, I like walk around like this cover yeah. If I may look at a you know like a concert or like in it,

wear a helmet. If I lose you, I literally when I finally got it night club or something I want to wear a helmet, I'm like wanting. If I can bring that back, I just did a girl that used to go to mosh pits. It was crazy and she got head but it by a dude came over of my apartment after she had been moshing and she's, like mom like what are you doing? Oh, she. I think she went to see some crazy, fucking bad. I'm trying to remember the is there a band called the creeps yeah. It was yeah. This is in Boston and like eight thousand eight hundred and eighty nine, so we should be wearing helmets. You definitely don't get head butted in a Mosh pit yeah, but I would say Look there's certain assholes like drunken dummies, or you go out to places you. You know I'm short, so I'm always worried about the elbows like I was like reaching for something yeah like some big dude will test. I mean even like one planes and people are taking down their luggage.

I like how our by the windows or by the window, seat yeah. That's some the record. Mission of vulnerabilities, an issue with people that get hurt because then also do you realize you can get hurt and sometimes you just walk on eggshells all get on it. It reduces the quality of your life. Yes, exactly and that's I mean that's sort of they get to that idea of you know fighting the bad guys things that hurt you and then you decide kind of how how comfortable you are. You can't just run away. You can't just hide. You have to kind of push your comfort limits a little bit, but I'm I'm not gonna go skiing. You just don't ski not going to ski yeah wow. I did like certain there certain things now that I feel like it's not worth the risk to me. One slash three You know I can only imagine I just start skiing at forty five first time skiing I fucking wiped out hard last year. That's fine didn't didn't hit my head, and I'm pretty good at falling. I know how to fall or tumblr

roll with it. I was like dude. I was going fast when I wipe oh yeah, there's video that's online today that I just retweeted earlier today this fucking kid is in Colorado and he's on a skateboard and he's going seventy miles an hour down a hill, and you just watch, in, like every part of my body's like tingling here. You know that anticipation of injury is look. You tweeted that did you treat the a rooftop her like the guy in Russia, hangs up soon? That's you know. Really interested in like narrow hacks how you can do little things to like. You have changed like how your brain is working right now and that video it seemed to me would be really good for people to get a little adrenaline going if you're like on your watch and you're like having a hard time getting yourself out of bed. Oh my god he's going Seventy miles an hour down this crazy hill

horrible, music. For me, it looks like a video game right I mean it's crazy! This kid is doing this 'cause you can stop I mean actually he's really good. So there's a point where he he turns a skateboard sideways to slow it down like at the very end but and there's a couple little wiggles there. It looks like he's about to go down and if he goes down, dude you're breaking everything. Yeah. You want seventy miles an hour. I mean he is fall, lying There's no way. I mean they're not faking this. Unless this is some sort of advance eg, I was going to say I mean it almost could be a video game like watch when he reaches hands down. Yes, some kind of crazy gloves on and when each is hands down. There's a certain part in the video. Where he's touching sparks looking to spark see this parks. Look at that Jesus fucking Christ, I kind he almost fell. I mean he's getting like really close to fall,

like this a couple times there with is like this intense wiggle and he's talking himself, make a speedskater so that he can go faster, crazy, fucker, like what is wrong with kids, I mean I get it. This is an adrenaline rush, but when you see this, knowing what you suffered from standing up under a cabinet yeah, This is freaky, as you have a helmet on, is that a hat and the helmet was at how we gonna do will it all look at that that kid is crazy? That's how he slowed down. Now he's down to a reasonable pace, but when you see he'll, do it again to slow down was aboard and look at this, that is nuts we figuring out how many hours of because he's like a virtuoso

yeah. So this is like thousands and thousands of hours. Yeah he's put the ten thousand hours, yeah yeah, but good Lord. You see something like that. Knowing what you went through like anything like we see like dirt bike riders doing, I actually have a really. I stopped watching professional football after I used to you know I mean go forty Niners right, but I can't I can't watch football anymore like I just I mean I can, but I don't enjoy it in the same way, because I just feel I feel bad the players and when I see when I see like a really hard hit, I just I just feel bad. So I think that's something that a lot people are struggling with these days with all these, you know the real sports story. They did on traumatic, brain injury and the issues that people are having and the

stuff. I've seen from fighters over the years is definitely affected. My enjoyment, what's this retiring after concussion, yes hit to my head, could possibly I mean this is a thing that right thriller yeah there were the retiring one two years into their career well there's more of that now than ever before, because guys are realizing. First of all, at the end of at the end of their career, they're, most likely going to be debilitated. That mean almost all of the players to take a lot of head suffer from serious injuries for the rest of their lives, and so when you're young and in looking at your future going look, I could put all my energy into this, and you know the or I can say you know what I'm still young, I'm twenty three. I could do anything I want like look. I've been in the NFL, I've experienced it. Let me just get the fuck out here: some out and make sure that the future of the sport is going. There's going to be a big, so

now divide were the only people who who really want to play and are willing to take that risk or people who feel like they have nothing to lose. Where is that in this is the people that want to watch it like. We we've experience that with the? U of c two there's a there's, a bunch of people that want to watch the the head injuries. They just don't know what they're seen. Yet they don't stand like when you you. Somebody get Kayode like really badly. When you see someone get head, kicked or dropped on their head or something like that, you just see excitement you see like oh, that guy just beat that guy yeah. I know I know it's that yeah I can watch. I can watch fights either for the same reason I have friends who are so into, and you know you just because I mean So I love games. I understand

again a good good. Sport is a good game and you admire people's ability to be so good at this. You know this thing that we've created to test human potential, but but you know it it's. If I've sort it started drifting to sports where there's fewer concussions, although you know like I'm, a big tennis fan and one of the big stars just got a concussion this weekend at the US open house. So she slips at in the open like the locker room after two and like the ice bath. After, like a phone not- and it's interesting, they showed her coming to the court to see if she could practice with her sunglasses on the hood he pulled up, and she just has that that look that like now I'm I saw her. I was like. Oh my god, I mean she's like right in the that zone of where she thinks she's going to play because she's not thinking

clearly, but you can see her. I mean she's like a shell of herself, so when you see something like that, do you want to reach out to her? Oh yeah. No, I know and people have been tweeting at her to be like you have to get super better, just finished their clinical trial. You can, you can be back by then he right now be better, but what is super? Better yeah, I know I do I do I do want to reach out because because I know how hard it was and how how so few people I mean the general public conversation about this is not caught up to kind of the reality of full experience, well that all of those ice baths, the that's one of the problems with that that form of cold therapy is that you get out in your legs like rubber, yeah, no you're you're, you arrange at work, and so that's why you can't do that stuff and then work out like this, some forms of cold therapy that you can do you can workout after, but not those ice pass. I know I have done. I run marathons, so I have done some ice bath and yeah. I have

never done the whole body cryotherapy we stepped in the chamber and go to two hundred and fifty degrees below zero. For three minutes. It's awesome, is it really? Is there like a mind by the element like you kind of? Is there like a mental state that is, change oh yeah. Well, your brain produces something called Neopan, Efron, cold, shock proteins and all these different things happen when you hit minus one, fifty degrees below zero, yeah, zero, yeah, is also the something that someone just invented. One of these are brought this up, something called a cryo helmet like put it on over your head. It's like a gel pack thing like it's almost like a hoodie and you put it on on and it's like. They really recommend it for people that have had head injuries that interesting. I haven't introduction and swelling right. I could I mean I could see that if you're trying to treat the inflammation, because it's like a whole thing like that, we got

your frozen helmet. You know he was little gel packs. Now yeah yeah one of those, but it's a helmet yeah. I don't know you might. I will, because I yeah no, you got to pull up like Google scholar, though, for me I want to see like. Is there any literature on this yet because I'm certainly go for? I don't put I'm I'm fairly conservative with telling other people what to do like for myself. You know I was like oh well make a game, but for telling other people to do, I'm like wait till there's appear yeah for sure but fighters. You know boss Rudin, whose former UFC Heavyweight Champion Great fighter was talking about that. That's it's important like when guys get hit to ice their head after it's over. Anything in his rationale was like look of hurt your name. What's the first thing they do they put ice on it. Why don't they put ice in your head yeah? I was like that actually makes a lot of sense. I know this is really interesting. I was just reading about. You know. You probably know this. They say like five minutes after you stop breathing. Supposedly you have like brain cell death. If you look at

drowned round, can't get them breathing again in five minutes, then, supposedly this too late and they're, now finding that, if you cooled down the body in the brain that they can come back, you can be not breathing, not. You know heart heart beating for more than five minutes now, if you get the body temperature snow in pack them with ice, that's what they're doing now they're starting to do that. It's like a first ranking for section. I know- and I was like I was telling my husband like we need to. We need to read this. Literature. So because I want to know, if I'm supposed to do this or wait till like the EMT shows like. If something happens, should I start packing ice or yeah, I'm not sure, I'm not actually sure if the practical implication. Yeah. As you get older, you realize more and more help. Damn vulnerable people are yeah, so physically vulnerable, What is what, because your eye in doing what I do? I have confronted a lot

skepticism and I would even say I mean people who are really quite sarcastic really about this oh I'm going to adopt a secret identity, and it's going to make me not depressed. You know, usually it's people not suffering from depression, who say this 'cause if you're really suffering from, something debilitating like an impression. You will try anything so that people who are pretty happy and healthy and they'll say this is sounds ridiculous, but but you're talking about bloggers right yes well yeah and the New Yorker just ran a big like a giant piece about about super better. At the sort of you know, it was both positive, but also still. The sounds kind of ridiculous. Well does sound ridiculous, but but then it's still can work and sound ridiculous. Exactly and that's why it's like I, when you really tell

normal people are and how much is out of our control mean those are the people who are the first in line to try this and who benefit the most. So we had half a million people play an electronic version like logging, their power ups in their bag as in class, so that I could get data on it and see what are the most effective power ups like. How often do you have to you know, check into it to get better and we found that people with the which is still the most painful and difficult situation these were the ones that were benefiting the most is like sort of the more you realize how vulnerable you are, the more open. You are and the more this kind of concrete, purposeful, positive action can actually make a big difference. That makes sense I mean once you feel the vulnerability inch you you you, it could be it. It becomes real Whereas when you look at someone who has a broken leg, then you go. I can

intellectually understand that that person broke their leg, but I don't know what it feels like right. If you've never broken your leg, you don't know that feeling like fuck. I can't even stand on this stupid thing. Is that that feeling, where, like Ok, now, what do I have to do? What do I have to do tons to do and then the reality changes and the reality of you having the head trauma and trying to figure out like there's gotta, be a way to get out of this swamp this mental swamp that I'm stuck in, let's fucking make it do you like you're, just I mean sense to me: a person who's a person's been through a bunch of surgeries and injuries and stuff. It totally makes sense to me because there's a reality, though every time, I've really badly injured myself like where I needed a knee surgery or something that's like a just an acceptance just goes: let's just go: do it, let's go, do it 'cause! Now this thing is broken. Until that happens, there's a bunch of people. Tell you well, once you try rehab in it. Why don't you try doing this? Like no

It's like. I don't think you get it now and a lot of times. You have an injury and you won't know if it will get better if you'll be able to get back to what you doing before, which is actually where the name super better comes from, because I wasn't sure, I would ever have the same cognitive capabilities. Not at that time I was you. I was, and I I just got my my phd. I was doing research I was you know I was used to being able to have an intellectual profession, and so I was like get better soon and I'm like well. What does it mean that means get back to who you were before this happened, and I didn't know if I would ever be able to do uh of that again, so I thought: well, I'm not going to get better. I'm going to get super better I'll, just be different, I'll, be like this. News for version of myself, like spider man, you know he got hit by the radio.

Have spider in this concussions. My radioactive spider- and I don't know if we are going to be but it'll, be someone different and instead of just trying to you, know anytime, you have an injury or you don't know who you're going to be at the end of it. It might be back to normal. It might be different and you want to be the best different that it could be? You have there's been many stories of people that have gotten knocked on the head and all the sudden had musical talent and mathematical talent. Are you hoping that that was going? I had the weirdest experience, so I'm a very introverted person by nature. You know like if my phone rings, he won't answer it like, even if you're my friend or like you're, my mom, that's too much social interaction. Like I get anxiety, I cancer. So that's been, like my whole life, but what we know about, like the difference between introverts and extraverts is introverts tend to stimulate themselves within,

all thinking they're, always there always thinking and they don't need other people to kind of get them excited. Extroverts respond much more positively to external stimulation. It's like a it's like they're, just prime to the. If they see someone smile get them. It's like a cocaine hit. You know. So when I had the injury I couldn't think to myself anymore, I couldn't like entertain myself with my own thoughts, and I became like this super extroverted person and, like I said like calling everybody in my phone like Contactless, in which people I would never, I mean, won't even pick up the phone, and I'm like please talk to me because I couldn't I couldn't literally cannot be an introvert anymore, but that only lasted for a couple months and then my sir to get better, I went back to the internet, and I still today I I try to keep some of that because I actually discovered we. I, I really think it's nice

talk to people, it's not. It's not actually a burden, you know, but that's so that was one of the super. Better and it is for me, is I realize, and you know we know from psychological literature, extroverts really are happier they the longer the psychologically healthier it is. If you can convince yourself to be social, it's it's really good for you. That introverts just is still have a different brain chemistry, so their brains telling them of scary, like you know, to make immigration. That's the one of the weirdest things about online interaction. Is it's kind of a combination of both vert behavior an extrovert, be because, even though you are interacting with people you're not seeing them no it's controlled and that it's it's the face to face can be really one thing: yeah yeah: what year it's like the just the the energy, so

it is yeah. I mean it's not it's not the same thing as being mean just because your introvert doesn't mean year. I don't know like socially able, like I, you know, you're, not gonna, Miss fit well. Obviously, you you're very cable for keeping a regular conversation going. Yes, I mean when, when you can say, you're an introvert but you're easily you like you're, just talking no problems or not had some introverts on this podcast before it's obvious they're, like everything is in effort, yeah yeah, there's, probably more of an effort for me than it looks. But I think it's more of an effort for everybody that it looks. Maybe that's a good point. I think that is one of the issues with online interaction. Is that you don't see the people? In the You know you just just like mine tension is it's kind of ambiguous and I, like your right side thing where you put something out there and it's not completely clear like if you say something I get the tone.

I can tell if you being sarcastic- and I if, if you say something mean to me like we have to look at each other and like fucking- really you know like in this is weird thing to it, whereas if you do that online there's, like none of that, I think that there's something very strange. That's going on in our culture right now with so many people, spinning a giant amount of their time, I'm only interacting with people through taxed. Absolutely well, that's one of the areas of research that I was diving into. So you know, because I I don't just mean research, brain injury, stuff. I mean typically research, video games and how they change, how we feel and think and act, and what is your highest in this? The field call performance studies, so I was just basically studying how people perform in video games and as a result of video games, sort of collaboration, skills, they're, sort of psychological performance on

things like that at Uc, Berkeley was where I studied and dial. So one of things that we know it's happening in video games is that there's a really big difference between playing a video game in the same room with somebody and playing online yeah. So if we're playing call of duty and I'm trying to kill you if we're playing in the same room, we act. Really undergo really great kind of they call synchronization. So our heart rates will sync up our breathing gates sync up, we get it's kind of mirror neuron in process going on where it's like blood flow is mirroring where it's flowing. The patterns of activation army ring each other and all of that's associated with more compassion and more empathy. We

like each other more. We trust each other more, even if the game is violent, even if we're competing all of this happens, and it happens because you know when you're playing a game with or against someone you have to try to get in their brain like what are they going to do next? What's the next move, and so your brain starts to mirror what you think they're doing so this is really It's mind, body nearing that goes on what triggers the mirroring the the observance of the character on screen. I well now it's big it's because it only works if you're in the same spot, physical space with that but you're still looking at a screen yeah

what you're trying to think what are they doing and there's just something about if you're that you may think you're looking at the screen. But there is also a general awareness like when you're sitting next to someone right, you're aware of serve what's going on and the and cues that you're picking up body language cues and if you like, turned to look at them. You you'll even just in a split second look at this and facial expression. Q and that doesn't happen in online games. So what we've been measured, yeah yeah yeah, so what we scene is, if you take the same game and play it. You know again somebody in the room you wind up with these positive impacts are, like you know, more compassion,

empathy, you like each other more. If you play the same game online you're not able to see their facial expression, you're, not able to get the same sinking phenomenon you actually de humanize, the opponent you, your testosterone goes up, you feel less empathy towards them, and so it's one of the reasons why, in the box, I talk about how you know, unless you're actively trying to change your personality to be more aggressive. You want to. I don't know: some reason you feel like you want to be kind of more of a have this aggressive hostile personality. You should not spend more than half your time trying to beat strangers online line because of the because it's not times a lot of time? Your have your gaming oh Jesus Christ. What are you recommended for twenty four hours in a day, snow spend more than twelve hours

strained, and actually it's twenty one hours a week is where you start to see the benefits of games, reduce and negative impacts increase. So there's another public service announcement what, if you have you done it in layers where you know you like, I used to do LAN parties, my friends used to play quake yeah LAN parties from it's a really fun in a lot of camaraderie and stuff yeah. But if you put a barrier up yeah, but in the same room or if they are in a room, that's right next door, but no there there and maybe you can hear their voice or if you shut that door in can hear their voice. If you change, have they seen like what? What if the mirroring is consistent? I'm the studies that I've seen show that you have to be in physical proximity. So if there was a barrier and we we unable I was unable to look over and get those cues from your body language or from your facial expression that it would not happen. However, cubicle thing- and I could just like

each up yeah, then you and then you'll. Probably why- and I don't- I like- I like this idea of the staging. The thing I'm really curious about is with twitch and now you to gaming. If you can watch somebody playing and and now you're seeing their face, while they're playing a game studies- have shown that watching someone play a game that you know how to play will trick the same. Mirror neurons cause your brain can kind of emulate. If playing a game. I don't know how to play under the controls. I don't have the goals. My brain will just be like the I don't know, but if I know how to hey MIKE how I know what she's trying to do. I I'm not a strategy for yeah whatever it is, everybody knows yeah. You can always goes yeah yeah, so one thing I'm interested in is, if I can see someone's face, you know, while they're playing we're playing a game, I know, could you get some of the but it would only be unidirectional because if you're like live streaming, your gameplay- you can't see me- so, but it be interesting says we know that if

get this mirror neuron effect, it makes people want to help you more like each other more and like thinking like being a powerful. You know twitch stream are you two game streamer like could make you really cultivate a large community people who really want to help you with like like if I were building an empire of like a new community, I feel like that would be what I would be building, because they would be really would be like a really tight bond. That's fascinating! You know this twitch thing is caught a lot of people by surprise. Yeah, I think a lot. No one would have ever thought that would be so popular to watch. Some play, video games right and the mirror neuron thing helps explain it, because it's not like watching tv, where it's just passive. If you how to play the game, your brain starts working to process it and anticipate. You know what they're going to do next, trying to figure out what what decision maker or where it'll,

so and so you're actually getting a lot of the same simulation as if you were playing the game yourself and that's the thing people don't understand with this with musicians too, if you to play musical instrument, and you watch somebody playing that's a musical instrument. Your brain starts to activate as if you were playing it you're so, which is why I can be more interesting for someone. Somebody knows how to play the piano to watch. Someone else play the piano or listen to someone else play the piano versus somebody doesn't know it totally makes sense. When I used to play quake, we used to watch these things they some demos and what it was was a game they would record and so you'd see it through. Our eyes. So you get to see how good a player it moves and then it would make you play you would play better after you saw that absolutely They were really popular. Like demos were super popular, you would download them and you would play them in game like in your game.

Remember that yeah yeah, I was like an account, is like a little bit. Well, that's the case with athletics to arm a lot of people tell me that when they watch like a really good basketball player play that makes them play better basketball yeah. I know it's the case with pool I play pool and when I watch really good players play like, I can kind of emulate what you do and but if, if, if I feel like it's not just like copying, but I kind of tunein your brain is practicing it. I I find that after a grand slam in tennis because I'll watch, The only reason why I'm not watching tennis right now is 'cause we're here. Do and this I going on high at the US open. My favorite player is playing like right, literally right now later player. Joey. The song who I need my puppy after I have a dog and a mango, but he's playing right now to get get to the semis, but no spoilers 'cause, I'm recording it, but I know that so I'll go like two weeks watching hours and hours of tense today, then I go

to play tennis and I'm better. I'm absolutely! I see the ball better. I get, to it better Absolutely because my brain is spent two weeks mirroring everything I see, but if you don't know how to play, if you've never played your body won't do it. So you have to have you have to have a model for, for this, to work totally makes sense. Yeah because, like something like tennis, like I've, been I'm and may be played. Once in my whole life when I was in my early twenties, so you wouldn't get as much I wouldn't get anything because I'm not going to play again. I don't think I just enough time in the day, but I totally understand that that totally makes sense. I think that probably is the case. It pretty much everything that Do it's one of the reasons why a sense community amongst people that are all involved in the same sort of endeavour, so important 'cause, you kind of push each other and inspire each other and also you kind of feed off of each other, maybe like. If we were all comedians, maybe you would have

make a certain kind of style that I don't have, and I would see your style ago. Oh James, got this crazy thing. She do it well that's kind of cool, and then maybe I would do something that you didn't do any like. Maybe I need to like be more this or me more and for sort of tune in to how people are doing to the point where a lot of comics when they're around each other? it becomes an issue sometimes because they kind of mimic each of those personas or or or even just the cadence, you would think you start picking up. There's a guy named David Towel, so one of the funnest guys ever and he she's got a way of talking, that's really fun and when he talks like there's so many young guys that come up that start talking like Dave it AL and it's like it became an issue where there was all these little like Patrice on EAST Comma, tell babies so Liza tell babies that were running around it, but really they're, just young comics that admire his sort of Kate and they're trying to do it too

and they were like super inspired, because they're, young and they're just trying to make it, and then they seen this guy there's this fantastic comedian, like God, and then they don't even realize it, but there just opting it yeah. No, that makes perfect sense. I mean you just becomes template and nobody exists in a vacuum right, I mean everybody sort of there's, everyone influences everyone around them to a certain extent. We all want to believe that were some rogue indypendent operator that exists out in the fridge. Society and lives in a fucking wooden house in the woods somewhere. That sounds nice sounds nice, but it's ok to creation of fiction. Oh yeah! No! It's funny some, the Myer Clive Thompson. He writes a lot about technology for acquired in New York Times, and he to book out recently about is technology. Changing our brain and the opening chapter says: news. Flash everything changes, your brain, this sentence, you just read it change

to rain, so I mean in one hand it's sort of silly did to look at research. That says oh games change. Your brain like this or music, should be like that, because everything you do everything you're exposed to changes your rain here making a memory or your activating a pattern. So I mean like even this conversation. You know Congratulations like you have changed my brain today, but this is just something think about it, a lot of responsibility and how we interact with each other. It is and well that's, that's one of the weirdest things about doing a podcast is how many people will tell me after they listen to podcasts for five hundred episodes. Did you change my life Oh yeah goods a lot of responsibility, but it we really are changing each others lives. I mean the podcast has changed my life just being able to talk to all these different people. So it's port not to have dipshits in your life 'cause? If you're? and people that are just constantly fucking up and constantly making the same

mistakes over and over again, like that pattern affects you too. That pattern we creep into your mind. Yes, and so you know it's it's- it's really good to surround yourself with people who inspire you, because they they talk about having a cognitive model for behavior change like if you're trying to get better in some way. If you can visual, if you know somebody who's already done it or doing positive things in their lives, it requires less center You for your brain to imagine yourself doing it like if you're, if you, if you don't, if you're, not trying to anybody who's, trying to get healthcare trying to get set or whatever it is your it's like it's literally harder to imagine, and so it's like more exhausting for you to try to imagine yourself getting better, whereas if you're surrounded by people who are doing it, it becomes familiar to your brain. There's all sorts of examples that your brain cone call on literally takes less energy for you to imagine yourself actually doing it and weirdly they found at Stanford University using avatars. If you can see an avatar that is

designed to look like you doing the sort of things you want to do like you know, being really physically fit like work, out in the game rule. If you just watch an avatar custom designed to look at you doing that it lower the for you to do it and then you will do more in real life. Real, like you know, you will work out more you'll spend more time committed to those goals just by having watched the sort of mirror version of yourself. Having done it, that's fascinating! That's fascinating 'cause! That seems open up a whole new realm of possibility for people creating virtual reality games. Yeah virtual reality is where your watch like one of the big things that they say it's an important for progress in sports and and then pretty much anything is visualization. Visualize yourself doing things. It's a big thing with martial arts. The take a lot of fight

big talk them through their scenarios. They will sit down and close our eyes, meditate and visualize themselves, getting out of bad situations, visualize themselves winning and do it over and over and over again to the point where it becomes like a part of this, your reality, your reality is you win yeah, you know it seems like if you could watch a video of you doing all those things and artificially created you absolute. Jumping higher than you've ever jump before did out scoring in tennis yeah, and what's so it's like it's, it's a there's a little bit of nuance to it. That's really interesting! So for exam If you are like walking on a treadmill while you're watching a custom avatar of yourself and the avatar seems, starts running faster and is getting fitter, you will run faster, you will, you will work harder if, if you are engaged in an activity, it can really get you moving. So

it would be good to tie it to when you're actually working out like it might not be it might. Last for you know, this movie today and a week later, I'm still feeling more powerful. You kind of want to do it in the moment there they, the one study at Sanford, found for twenty four hours they were, they said, were more physically active. Like taking stairs are doing more push ups or whatever by data, but I do like the idea of using it purposely like that. The one thing I know is like for positive visualization. I don't know if you've seen that's been movies are coming out. Do you have to visualize the effortful action and not the outcome like if you're visualizing getting you know, lifted up on people with people shoulders like? I am the champion that actually seems to sometimes have a productive affected. Your brain can imagine it so vividly you kind of feel like you've already had that pay off and you're put in less effort

that didn't study a few years at show this, so but if you're visualizing the effort for activity that it takes to get there you're picturing, you know here I have to do on game Day and you're. Thinking about that, the things that require effort on your part techniques- or you know that the actions are going to take. That is helpful. So you just want to think about. You know. I can't wait till a you know, call me up and say that I won right whatever you have, you can't think about just you have to be visualizing the things that are going to require effort, energy your part, that's the that's. That seems to be the most helpful, it's so fascinating, because I did just that statement right there. That seems to be the most helpful, there's so much weirdness and all this is if it's like magic like what like what is the with the visualization process. What's the mechanism like what? What what is it inspiration, a man how much of inspiration? How much is

inspiration, a factor in success. I well, I would say, probably gigantic right well. That was that all it is, I mean, there's there's so many different avenues. I am. I focus on self efficacy as what you're trying to increase as opposed inspiration to self efficacy, is when you, for all like you have the skills and abilities and resources you need to achieve your goal. It's it's! It's different from self esteem, self esteem, like I'm, a good person. You know it's sort of like myself. Self efficacy is very specific like if I have self efficacy about running a marathon. It means that I have done, and you know at least a few twenty mile runs, I know how hard it's going to be. I've got my research. I know how to you know few older, the RON. I know how much I hate take sodium. I have to take a different point. I know what the course looks like so I've got a mental plan having that sense of reasonable optimism and focusing on visualizing what you'll do successfully that's focus on your own skills and abilities that

in all of the scientific leisure is linked to better outcomes, whereas if you're managing things that are outside of your control, it just doesn't. How is it might inspire you and maybe you'll you know, get out of bed and put more of an effort. As you, you know, picture something good has thank you, but the the mental model that seems to be most powerful is when you're, focusing on things that you have direct control over. That makes sense yeah the self efficacy. How much of all that is just a little like what you're talking about is just focus is just thinking about what you're doing and the more you think about what you're doing in the more energy you put towards what you doing makes you better and how This is just it is a

symbol that all these ideas of just visualization is what we are doing is really just focusing more and loving more. What you're doing. I think that could be a big part of it. I mean that that focus attention you're you're, able to perform better. You learn faster. I think part of it is also something to do with the dopamine system. In video games. So if some so I've talked to lots of narrow scientists for this book and a lot of them will say if you want to increase someone self efficacy, you have them play video game because, in a video game, you're constantly required to take action and then wait to see. You know I try to fire my weapon. I wait to see. If I shot successfully, I try to orient around an obstacle. I'm going to see I'm going to get information every time,

Your brain expects information about your performance. It gives you a little dopamine release. Dopamine feels good, so you got excited, but increase. Dopamine also allows you to pay closer attention and to learn faster right. So anytime you're trying something where you're constantly taking actions getting feedback and you have to kind of learn and improve. You'll get all this dopamine going and that is associated with the ability to build self efficacy. So I think There is a I mean I think, there's a neurochemical process, that's uh lying? This is not it's not just mean it's not just a matter of what you think is also about changing what is going on in your brain, so that brain is primed to learn faster to improve and that that's the that's why you know that's why they seem to be so many cool applications for video game

because if you can get a cancer patient who feels really powerless and overwhelmed to the video game about chemotherapy, and it starts building self advocacy and getting all the dopamine going. There was a clinical trial that showed that kids, who played a video game about cancer, were four hundred and twenty three months later missing fewer doses of their match send taking more antibiotics. They were more engaged, which leads to more cases of cancer being going into remission. Isn't that just more focus is just focusing. I think you mean it's using it as a mechanism to focus and think about your illness, focus and thing about your car, but its focus with the dopamine hit and the increased over mean is going to it changes. So what now will get really deep here

every time that you consider a goal, your brain stops and says: is it worth it because your brains, trying to conserve your body's energy- and you know that that your cognitive energy will say, if I If I do this goal and do I really want it, I'm going to put the energy to do it and what researchers have found the more dopamine you have in your reward pathways, the more you focus on the positive outcome and the less you think about the effort required. So I give you a bunch of dopamine, hence you're gonna be thinking about. I might be cured some day. I don't care how many side effects are to this medicine. I'm swallowing this pill, you know, and- and I'm going to do it because your focus on the positive outcome, not all the other things that stress you out about it or make you you know the nausea and and that that the enter

that it takes, and this is true if you drink push up she now like do. I really feel like doing one hundred pushups right now. If you have more dopamine going you're going to be more likely to say this is important to me is supported by training and if you are low dopamine, which is when you're clinically depressed you have really low dopamine, so things seems too hard. Why am I going to bother getting out of bed? There's like the effort required, seems so much more important in the goal. So there is a neurological underpinning to self advocacy, is sort of this combination of really wanting to achieve your goal and having that increase attention? So you learn faster so there, but you have to it's. I mean it's not it's not! It's not just a matter of saying I'm going to pay attention now you have to be priming your brain to increase the dope

in your or pathways right and but the dopamine hit. What is the mechanism that creates the dopamine head? Is it just simply loving what you're doing you know who's asking? No, no, its goals its its goals, it's anticipation! What specifically is anticipation of feedback, so the fastest way for you wanted to increase your dopamine right now. I would say: make a prediction about something: that's going to happen today. It could be anything like I because I've I predict that signed. The will win today in four sets. Whatever it is, you make a prediction about something everything make a prediction: your brains like how I might be right, I'm gonna and and and that'll feel good, and if I'm not right to learn something, why did he lose in five sets or whatever? So I make a better prediction next time that gives you a dumping it. So, in a video game, when you fire your weapon, you've predicted that it's gonna successfully

see that guy over there and you're waiting for it to see on the screen. Did I miss, or did I hit that's why you get a dopamine hat so every time you make a prediction, your brain gears up to either celebrate that you were right, get a success or I got to learn so that I can do better the next time. That's why I think I I you know. I have friends. I have one friend in particular that you didn't grow up with any healthy sense of competition, and what is he's actually talked about that if there's one thing that he can go back and do again like he thinks his parents and really instill any sense of competition him and he's one those guys. If he's playing a game, it's not going his way. He'll pull the plug. He'll flip the board over he's that guy yeah right. Well, you know, what's going on in the brain. So this is you have this reaction, but to him losing is is devastating and games are only if you can win right well and is probably what's going on. Is his brain is saying

you know it's starting to realize. No amount of effort is going to turn this around, and so he just walks away. Well, not only that there's no there's no history of figuring things out and getting better right? everybody who's ever started anything and gotten really good at it knows it in the beginning, you suck and that's It's kind of exciting yeah like you pick something up, say tennis. You know like if I started playing tennis today. I don't know how to play tennis. I would suck and it would be exciting 'cause I would get my ass kicked and never like. Ok, I have to figure this fucking thing out like what makes that ball. Spin, like that house, that guy whacked that ball- oh, I see he's. No, he knows his number crunching his gaze like data. He knows he's got his chunking information. He knows that if I move left the balls, going, go there and he's going to go here and uh, and I don't have

so and that experience of getting better I mean that's the basis for self efficacy. So it's like. Sometimes people ask me my parents will say what kids should might the game? Should my kids be playing for a learning experience, but I say every game: it is designed to be a learning experience because you're supposed to be bad and that's why games feel so good it your your everything you playing the game, you're figuring it out you're learning how it works, you're, getting better that experience of constantly getting better in proving to yourself. I can figure something out. I can improve. I can master something. That's that's. One of the reasons is a fundamental reason why people like playing games and why they don't play the same game forever. I mean. Sometimes you do with the game that you can never

MR, like chess or something you know, but most people will will really get into a game for awhile and then feel like they have stopped Irving, and so the brain gets you know, wants to keep learning wants to keep getting better. The dopamine had certainly going to calm if you aren't sure how to be successful right. So you have to play a new game. So I we don't play TIC tac toe as adults right, no, no dopamine at detective because you know exactly what's going to happen. Yeah post it gamer give trying to my five year. Old ha ha ha ha we're going to draw time, kids from the, but there's there's a guy elitism attach chess more chances is the only game. That's considered a worthwhile pursuit terrible. But what is that? Because parents will tell kids that are playing video games, that they're wasting their time. I know, but if you came home in your kid, was playing chess silently with his friend and they're, just looking at the e bill, echo my kids up to

good thing, I'm I sure it might first because Einstein played chess, so is it well. I. It's part of it. So you know it's really interesting. If you read letters that he used to write, You know we've looked at, but he wrote to people that he was worried that he was addicted to it. He talked a lot about how he had this game addiction, which is fascinating when you think about to hey how many people worried about I'm addicted to world of Warcraft or whatever game. So even Einstein worried about being addicted to his game. It is a real game. Addiction is absolutely real. It is, it is a real at it is absolutely real and there are techniques for breaking that pattern by the way. If you would do you want a quick technique for how to break shore. Okay, there's a whole chapter in in the super better buck about game addiction and how how to stop it, how to reverse it and what tends to lead people into it. So the biggest wish my friend Dunkin was hearing biggest. I know when video games yeah, let me feel normal

the biggest predictor for who. Become addicted to games and feel like it. Kind of gets out of control spirals out of control is if they're playing for escapist purpose is to try to block other feeling. So I have these all these problems, I'm going to play the game in that I'm I'm feeling anxious I'm going to play the game instead. So the way you reverse it is you have to I mean I talked about is playing to get better. You are, instead of playing to avoid something you focus on what you're doing that is making you better. Even if it's just to start getting better at this game, then you focus on you know, I'm playing with my friends. It's like improving my relationship, so I'm focusing on strategy or building my teamwork skills or whatever it is. You start to think about other goals outside the game that the game is connected to

because the biological process of addiction is the narrowing of goals that the brain responds to. This is true for for drug addiction. I mean all four of addiction, pornography, narrowing of goals that the brain response right. So you know I said you get like this: I mean when you anticipate something good in addiction. The brain starts to believe that the only source of the next dopamine hit is the thing you're addicted to, and you can't imagine other things that are going to make. You feel that good or feel that excited and one of this great new boat called the biology of desire that lays the nuro scientist kind of lays out all the new thinking on addiction. And the way that you break one of the ways you break out of cycle for any diction is to start priming the brain to anticipate success or pleasure from uh.

Sure thing. So you have to talk about like widening the scope of what is going to provide that dopamine hit. So in gameplay you have to stop. You have to stop thinking about the game as the only source of that good feelings. You have to start thinking about other goals that you have, besides, just the sort of sense of relief that the game is going to provide So that's something that they tell addicts that are drug addicts, use channel that addiction into something else. So that's essentially what they're saying they're saying what you need to do is find something else, but that's positive that you can get addicted to so you're, seeking out that weird chemical reaction in the mind when you stimulated by something else right instead of chasing crack, he'll chase exercise yeah, but we're seeing

games, because games aren't inherently dangerous, you don't have to quit playing games and in fact it can be dangerous to just go cold Turkey on games, because if it's like taking someone off an android present without tapering them, 'cause games have such a powerful impact on our our happiness. You know many kids are going to listen to this call mom, it's dangerous for me to quit this game. It will you ever sent to Jane. There are like suicide. I mean their cases of kids who have killed themselves when their parents turn off the game. Those kids would kill them those over anything. I I think I think it is likely related to it's the same thing when you take someone off and uh I sent in the brain is no longer having bad the it is like the open windows need you lose. Your ability to imagine is the term positive. Is the term addiction like? Is that a flawed term, because it see like it's so limiting

and in so narrow in its scope week we think of addiction. We think of always on the heroin. Yeah know what you just man automatically. Think, but really what is it the your brain has locked into these that's half ways of achieving desirable effects. Absolutely and that's, there's a lot I've. I've done some work with some relabeled realization, centers recovery centers for addiction, where they're starting to be more aware of this, the new sense of what addiction is, but if people are interested the book that just came out this year about that the value to the higher does a really good job of explaining it. Because it's I mean that as a pretty provocative argument, it says that addiction is not a disease. It's it's a fun if the brain is functioning absolutely perfectly, it's just focusing on its like hyper, focusing on

goal? But if you had that same brain chemistry about writing a start up company I mean Mark Zuckerberg was addicted to his start up in the same way that someone can get addicted to a video game or addicted to a substance. Get hyper focused on one goal is your only source of of pleasure. In anticipation of these positive feelings, so it's the brain is working properly. It's not broken, it's not it's, not a disease! In that sense, it's that It is just gotten stuck dagan stuck, I think you productive yeah. That is maybe ultimately not good for you. Physically or not good, for your life that you're trying to leave it for your car you're, a good for your family life, or I had a buddy that was addicted to one of those role playing games. Here I guess was ever quest and he he has. This really profound statement were at the comic store once he was on the managers, and he said I am so good at making money

in my online life and so bad at it. In my real life, yeah yeah and like he was like who is sitting there like a broken man and I'm like how often he plays like eight hours, nine hundred and ten hours a day everyday now every day and he goes Yai arm cannot play it and then that's when he said that like I'm is like It is rare break from the game on during his free time, it wasn't working and he came down the comic sort of hang out these pasty. Why pay almost gray skin 'cause. He was just like just draw, main malnourished sit in front of a monitor. All the time moving and clicking and says, like the Inter and for that you know if you were to it, sort of follow the guidelines of of how you train, get people to sort of focus on their goals, as you would just start by asking him. Why are you good at making money in this case?

what what what is it take in terms of skill, or you know, commitment or research. What are you waiting and and and start to think about strengths and abilities? And then, when you are thinking about yourself and what you're good at what you're capable of it kind of takes you out of you on its not the game right, the game isn't making you successful or happy it's your own skills and abilities, and that seems to be, if you look at the scientific literature just talking about what you own and what what is a result of your skills and abilities that that helps you brought in that, so you realize you can,

fly that elsewhere there might be other venues. It's not the game. That's giving this to me is something that I own right, that's so hard to intellectual lines and when you're in the grips of it, I now I now that's why this is like questions in my book that, like literally, you can ask someone- or you can ask yourself, so you don't have to in like size images do that so the, but their hundred question about you just do what I do. What I tell you to do, they're all designed like little game missions because it is it is. It is hard to change your mindset. I mean it's definitely hard, but what we know from studies of all kinds of minds and interventions, is that once you do it, it sticks. So, unlike a lot of forms of therapy or medication, you have to take this pill for the rest of your life to be in therapy for years. If you can do a mindset, intervention, it's done benefits. Are there it's locked in and you can have a five minute mindset interval

and and and at instead of taking in a prescription for the rest, your life? What I found to mitigate my addiction problems are my addictive tendencies, is just do a bunch of different things yeah. I I have a bunch of different activities that I do and the reason why doing affects so many different things. The key for locking exactly so? You, like intuitively, figured that out, Well, I figured it out trial and error over a long life of addiction. I grew up being addicted to a bunch of different things. At first it was art and then it became martial arts and then I got older, became stand up comedy and it became a pool. I had a real problem with pool to a point where my manager thought it was ruining. My career was playing eight hundred and ten hours a day I was playing in tournaments. All I want to do is play pool. I would go my comedy sets and then I go play pool till three four hundred o'clock in the morning and then I would get up in the morning.

Go work out. I go, the you know, go to my company. Do the same thing every night and all, but all I was thinking about was the game I was thinking about like knocking the balls and the like the dopamine affect or whatever it is of winning of or of being successful of running out the table of having the ball do what you wanted to do and because it's so difficult The reward is so much like anything you really like. If you play a game, it's really easy. When you win, it doesn't mean anything. So when you play a game, that's really hard to do that reward is so fucking, exciting yeah. But this is interesting. 'cause, like you, become a more interesting person as a result of having all the things that you do like you're, like this really unusual that you have all of these things. Instead of being hyper focused on one aspect, so it's probably

It seems like a good strategy, I'm just a broad spectrum. Junkie, that's yeah! That's I want, but I think that might be. That could be like a recipe for a good life hi. This is kind of interested in that idea. Now, click with you should that should should look at thank broad Spectrum junk. It works right now, but it could go off the rails, yeah. Well, you gotta, keep you gotta, keep you gotta, keep that circle wide going off the rails several times in my life, you should like. Even I like with running like, I definitely use running for my mental health and if I get an injury mmhm that is really hard for me. I have to replace it with something, or else you know you go into a depression. It's a big thing, which is it's our guys, it's very difficult for them to take the time off before they go back in training and wants to get injured, yeah, and I I have a couple crime

injuries that I have because one particular of a back injury. There was a a bulging disc that I just would. I would ignore right. I would I would I would hurt it pretty bad and then, two weeks later, I'd be sparring yeah, because I just needed that rush until it got pretty chronic and then I had to take a long stretch, often really let it heal up. But any that perspective it feels, like I mean just hearing. You say that makes me think really how important is for people to understand like how this system works. You can say look. My brain is telling me to go back and work out now, even though my doctor said don't do it and I can google and it says, stay off it for six weeks into understand your brains. Tell that because it once a dopamine head. If you really want to rehabilitate properly, you need to start doing other things that produce dopamine. Hats- and that's I mean fantasy sports, for example- do get really into that for the season that you're taking off, because that that you're making predictions so that's really does not work.

I won't work for you. No chance works for a lot of people yeah that not. I need to be active, yeah, physically out, yeah right well to be actual physical movement and yeah service. This is a big part of my adrenaline junkie thing. Yeah, it's actual nerves like playing poker. Is it was never exciting to me, even if, like people are gay for a lot of money, playing pool is extreme, really exciting, because there's the execution, the physical execution of things so you're going into flow state yeah, that's what that is too much. Well, I think my brain was wired with martial arts and competing, which is extr exciting, but dangerous and thrilling in the thrills are so hot at the thrills of competing or beyond anything that you can ever get from something that's non physical, non threatening it's it's high level problem solving with dire physical health consequences right so all sorts of craziness involved in it and the intensity and the focus that you need. So you under

and the guy on the skateboard really well, though, oh yeah, two! Well, that's! What's scary about it to Maine that could have fucking easily been me when I was seventeen or eighteen years old I understand all that shit. That's why one of the things that freaks me out most about those people that are tight, rope, walking and doing jumping those squirrel, suits for the jump off of cliffs and fly around yeah yeah yeah that doesn't always freaks me out is that I get it yeah. That's were freaks me out yeah race, car driving. All that shit is like I understand what this guy is doing is feeding that monster in his brain, that needs to be shocked and scared and thrilled, and what snacks and raw New York. You feel alive, I mean no, not just feel alive, but hyper along yeah yeah hyper alive,

but it's funny because you're asking about focus earlier and obviously, when you go into that, like that intense state where there is a high stakes, high risk, your attention is so super focus. Time slows down and you're able to see more process more. So that could be part of I mean. Do you think you're interested in in focus, because that's a part of that experience that high, which you don't get right there's I mean. There's lots of highs where you're not going to have a heightened focus and attention. There's that and there's this state of peace, that's achieved when you've overcome almost insurmountable obstacles and fear and nervousness everything else. Whatever weird problem that you might be dealing with with your personal life, they seem so inconsequential like like when I would have like our relationship. Problems are girls dating some craziness about to break up. I would go spar and I would like who gives of.

Yeah I am now in in you know. I would. I remember one time have: this conversation is Chrome's dating was like so dramatic and nonsense, MIKE so the I guess we're breaking up. I mean like what what you going to do it like I fuck. I can't do this like either way like each other or we don't like each other they're going to hang out and have fun or we're not going to hang out anymore. I want to do this anymore and, like oh you're, so cold here, so it sounds like my early 20s she was do really gain perspective instead of wallowing around in this, because I think there's an addictive aspect. Of relationship out break up, make up thing of the the highs and the lows of like they're, people that are addicted to arguing in relationships sure what defaulting I'd love is an addiction I mean it. I mean it's literally the same process, it's the narrowing of it, Jan on one thing, the only that person get you that excited get you that

while logical tricks, yeah age too, because I was trying to get you to breed yeah and what's really, then you get the really problematic relationships when that happens for one person and not the other and then lying and doctors yeah we got like, but it's like it's. Why it's? Why? Somebody seems you don't understand, even if you're dating and you kinda, like that person, but they're already there down the road there visit like they are, they are, they are in love. They are addicted, and then your behavior might seem totally crazy to me because I'm not there yet, and even I liked you because you're further along in that process, and that's of narrowing of attention. Yeah I freak out, which is you know. Maybe if I had waited a few more weeks, I might have been that I might be far enough along that. It actually doesn't scare me. Ophiolite people fall in love at different rates.

It's not it's not really that you're crazy person and I'm a normal person and therefore I shouldn't date you this is your for the biochemical processes. Look a little faster for you most. I think like there couples who break up too soon, because one of them came kind of cut further along in the addiction process. On the other? What a weird way to look at it, but yeah I mean, and also it's like the same. Exact person you could meet them six months later in their perfect right yeah, you meet them right now. Maybe they have a going on in their life that the farm of slower sure right, because you'll follow faster for something else. Getting you excited in your day right. Let's all that term fall in love like what exactly is going on there. What does that mean right, you know you just sinking up Whatever personality aspects that you have holes and square eggs in round holes and everyone's trying to figure out where everything fits in and then also a weird thing where we've all had friends at all

who they are when they start dating someone. It's very the strange to see to you know like they'll stop talking to some of their friends or they change their behavior pretty radically and like whoa It's got your like fitting into this mold at the other. Person requires, like one person is you're, more dominant or you're, both like super fucking, codependent, so you need each other all the time like I have a friend this month. Fucker can't go anywhere without his girlfriend. He doesn't do anything without her. I mean he. It's invite him over for podcast boom brings his girlfriend. You know come over for the game. She's here to great. You know he does Go to the movies. Don't do anything like that. Is he happy eyes a fucking mess he's a mess, but Two of them are a mess this like inescapable pair, but maybe their happy messy happy Maybe I don't know, I don't know either what is happiness?

That's strange. I mean it's like they're, not depressed they're, not jumping off bridges. You know the Bolton then shooting heroin. This all sounds good like what it, what is it that makes people addicted to each other, because they most certainly get addicted to each other yeah, like the feeling, when someone breaks up with you, when you can't believe that out, yeah yeah, like that is like a like someone stolen something from you that they've stolen your happiness by taking off and just simply leaving you alone, yeah yeah we knew they are part of you, like your whole, you our whole is missing. A slice yeah like the whole of I know that it means that all the metaphors that people use it really feel that way, yeah, but isn't that logical trick just to get us to breed like you, stick around long enough to make a baby and then you know, fall in love with the baby so that you raise it so that baby you can go and have a baby. In the sense of community that you have all sort of is addictive and it keep

you together, which I mean sure survival yeah I mean that's, why cooperation feels good. It's like kind of feels good, I mean I'm so tricky it is and, like I don't know you can I mean I'm a very practical person. I mean I think I try to help people feel good. I want to feel good and your cooperation kindness. You know those things, helped society and help evolution and like we're stronger together, and it feels good like that to call you, I don't mind that you know evolution is kind of tricking me. I mean I have two babies, I've, seven month old twin, daughters, and you know if this is a trick of biology, how I feel about them. Totally cool with that, because it feels good yeah. That's biologies trick to me tells me feels good. I like it. Thank you biology for giving me these feelings. I never had before

yeah I mean you can kind of intellectual lies it down to the point where it's no longer enjoyable, because it like glue, isn't life itself a trick in a sense because it's really temporary. Remember what you can accumulate, all the Audis and beautiful houses and boats you want, but the end of the day Ok, it's over, you know like. You use the sunrises and sunsets and you get a certain amount of time and that's it so you can in actualize that to the point really, what's the point I'm just going to, and now and some people do do that they almost get to this thing. They can't be in the moment, because they Don't know how long the moment lasts and the anticipation of the MO an ending is just too freaky. So, like fuck, this I'm out, it's sort of the same thing is my friend who can't play the video game. If he's going to lose and he pulls the plug, I mean there's a lot of law, it's the same sort of qualities and characteristics of that kind of thinking. There's over intellectualizing over to the point we can't even enjoy what it is.

I really want to work on this friend of yours, like a figure like video games, they're paid to like know what sounds like an interesting project. Isn't the remaining can out? Okay, much problems. I like I like I like the like. How would you help somebody who can't lose like who the batteries it? You should be so happy that you're trying to help them, because that means you're talking about him. It's like you're, focusing on him is a lot. I have all, but no bees alive, who is in America's on Ethiopia, live in a glass house. You know it's like Cain's lackeys, Fark yeah. You got to think it's at a certain point in time that there's there's there's levels to happiness and harm the harmony that you achieve with the environment that you find yourself in and the more chaos The you create in the more problems that you create just to solve those problems

that uh that enerji keeps you from doing something else that enerji is going to block you from the other pursuits, yeah, absolutely yeah! I mean you need to take committed action tour. Positive things in the of your life is again, of course. Yes, it is ever. I have a kind of a funny story about that. I you know I did the cold air for a few years ago and when you did, that is he break character?

so what if he comes not now not will not as it is. He comes in the dressing room before hand and they don't do a pre show interview because they want you to be kind of off Guard Allen's and he comes, and he says you have you seen the show. Okay, I'm gonna be in character and I'm gonna be really stupid and stubborn and your job is to disabuse me of my stupid and stubborn ideas, and they said no, let me ask you a question I is, you know, is life a game and I was like is this? If you like? Is he To seeing you know, is this look, as my only practicing some kind of witty report for the show or whatever or some like I'm trying to go into that mode and I'm like? Well, you know. Yes, of course it is, and he's like life is a game. We spend all our time playing it. Why are we bad at it? I'm like I'm like totally thrown off MIKE. Is he being like fills?

I don't blame him anyway, it turned out. He was actually being quite philosophical and he- and he had all of these- you know sort of thoughts about you know I mean he said mentioning philosophy, books, he'd, read everything I was like I'll cases like not like a not like a so you know we like banter and he was like really thinking about. That- and I always add I haven't mean to return to that question and try to come up with a better answer forms and it's a complicated game and there's no instruction book. That's why we're so bad at it mean it's, not everybody's bad at it. I wanted to people go wow. This person is a really, game going on yeah, you know, but it is just a game and essentially what what the problem is that there's loaded words like that with the word addiction is a loaded word. It's a loaded term. I think the word game name is a loaded term into it's, a combo,

heated series of events that you're trying to manage and you're trying to manage risk and reward and benefit, and the positive and negative aspects of behavior. Essentially it's exactly the same as a game. They're completely indistinguishable It's one of them is just open, ended and there's you know, there's no clear pathway, It's a game that literally you're standing in the middle of the universe, Bam and especially in twenty fifteen if you have the means you can get on a plane and go to another part of the game. You know you could just hop on a plane, and you know we were king before this podcast started about the radio lab podcast, that's out today about that by who was on my podcast Corey Knowlton, shot that rhino, like that's a guy who took the game and decided to go to a fucking place. He totally doesn't belong or is never never born there, whatever not and since it doesn't belong but a come. Three different area of the game and he's doing

and over there and everybody over in this part of the games like what the fuck are you doing over there, like some guy who gets a noob, and decide to sail across the world right. Well, well! Well, what are you doing right? Well, he decided that he's going to go different part of the board and he's going to get in a boat and he's going to drink rainwater and try to catch fish and travel across the fucking ocean. This isn't just like people are playing different kinds of games so, like the guy wants to kill a rhino, that's a combat game and the person wants to sail around in the boat is doing exploration is adventure, game and other people are doing. You know, collection, game reviews require resources and, the rhino guys doing the collection game way is collecting bodies yeah yeah, and I think the guy who's on the boat is doing the collection game. Two 'cause he's collecting accolades you know I made it across the ocean right when he sees a naked across it. Yeah the real way to do is: go across the ocean. Don't tell anybody right!

where you been last six months, so you know just chilling trying to find myself well, you know what you wanna boat. When I the training for a marathon. I was like I'm not telling anybody 'cause I wanted to like just the internal yeah I wanted to be. You know 'cause. It's like this weird bias. Some people have about runners it like they brag about it, a lot like they do it to like show off. You know who says that people wish they were running. I really leave that? Yes, if you run like, I have my Cameron, Kaman hands he's run two ultramarathons paid hill. You know post about on his instagram or I'll. Show you as time or something like that he's trying to like he an athlete in these sponsored by bunch of companies in part of his gig is that he inspires people, and he really feels good about that over the genuine thing that he does takes people running up these mountains, but you'll see these people that, like bitch about it like these guys, you've got one hundred miles in twenty four hours. If that's

impressive, not worth it. You need to go, look in the mirror and find out what the fuck actually impresses. You yeah you post a picture of your breakfast. You can get at about the thing that they ran yeah, one hundred my eggs? Yes, I mean it's like whoa Why do people get upset that you say you're going to run a marathon? Why would anybody get upset it's hard to run a marathon you going to run for three and a now, four hours or whatever the hell. Your time is that so fucking long time yeah it's hard for me to Twenty minutes on the elliptical machine and not get bored yeah, I could keep going for a lot longer yeah, but a twenty minutes. My flock to my dining is is cry is get this over with when someone says they ran, I'm a marathon. You start to question your own resolve, yes, which is like one. Reasons why they do that you're showing your score,

your game score and people getting pissed too high or fucking showing her high school, though sometimes I sometimes I level post a terrable run 'cause. I, like you to be too inspiring that people feel like they can't do it like fuck those people that, like I'll, do it I'll do it slow run so that people will see like hey if you're, now that it's tricking you into doing shitty scores, they're tricking, you that's true well there's. Definitely that this is a lot of people who, when someone will accomplish something, uh fascinated by watching the observers and one of the Instagram observers are the most fascinating 'cause. Whenever I go to someones page someone's done something cool like you know, my Cameron running one hundred miles I'll. Look at the the negative comments and I go to their instagram page and there are almost always blocked. It's always always private, like locked like you have to you, have to be one of their excepted friends are the comment on their pictures

because they're hiding right they're not putting themselves out there right, not showing their life, which in which means they don't understand. The vulnerability involve like if you were, if you had the experience of having other people right on your wrist, stuff, the same way that you were doing on someone else. You might not be doing that. Well, though, playing the low they're playing TIC tac toe right. Yes, someone else is out there playing chess yeah yeah. If you like the new, like Zing, my man, you're playing TIC tac toe yeah like take tac toe playing yeah. I mean it is kind of what it is of life. Is this really super complex, open, ended game where, essentially, if you live free culture like we do, you know we're not living in North Korea. We are assigned a job, and if you don't cry something happens, you know you go to jail. You, your your game, is essentially open, ended yeah. It's not that's one of the reasons why, when people get out of jail, the find themselves like instant,

analyzes, the is the word, but they find themselves so trapped in the game of jail that that's how their brain is wired. It's really extremely difficult for them to deal with open, ended game of life, yeah yeah, I mean even for you see it with you. But when someone graduate college kids, who have been from the top colleges who have been taught to play the game of achieving and achieving- and this really rigid structure, then they get out into the world and nobody's telling them here here the things you have to do to be considered a good student or be right asphalt, and then they just lose it they too much yeah, because they don't they are not. They have not been directing their own, game right? So you, if you, if you haven't, been designing the game now you have suddenly acquired that skill, for yourself is also one of the problems that some people have with career academics, people that never this is

the real world. They went from college to teaching college and then they also they require these rigid standards of behavior and think I know I heard about that yet about the Atlantic. Article yeah, that is, was interesting because it I've been so steeped in psychology, literature and a lot of the folks who play super better are traumatized and they've they've been through PTSD Mmhm, and it is absolutely true that avoiding triggers alongs the problem I mean so I I mean I can look at the site for latest rents. A trigger warnings are actually not not going to help they're going make make weaker over time? It's like we're were talking about. Oh I'm, so scared of the bad guy. I have to avoid everything that is it we. We know that that's not true

When I you know, when I hear about that, I you know I wish I try to talk to, and I tweet when that article came out. I tweeted about have a lot of people following me. Who are, you know, have PTSD and they're very conflicted about whether they're supposed to avoid triggers and they like trigger warnings, because they think it's going to keep them safe, but for everything we now is that you need to get better at controlling your reaction. A trigger, avoiding it doesn't help. So I can. I can see why that so frustrating to people well, the for the one of the most frustrating aspects of that article in particular. Was that what's going on and colleges today is it's a control issue yeah? they're they're controlling behavior in such an extreme way that there, there to penalize people for micro aggressions, which is like you say, something I go alright, which is just a part of

fucking human interaction with like? If I say something to you and you give me a sarcastic response, I have to side, you know what I don't enjoy communicating with her, because she makes me feel bad or I have to Maybe I'm fucking do she and maybe people react to me in a negative way and I should think about not I want to say or how I want to say things, but rather how people might view what I'm Jeff hey, how they take it in and maybe I'm just an an effective communicator with what's going on here is just you know, there's there's like two people playing soccer, okay, they're, both trying to hit the ball in the collide into each other, whose fault is it it's well, they're, both the it's just non smooth movement yep and that that sort of interaction that you would get when you're trying to hit a soccer ball it very similar to the Inter actually having to two people communicating with each other yeah your e colliding people The person is not necessarily totally responsible for that collision, yeah they're, both sort of responsible for it and there's a

the whole dance going on with it yeah poor decision making in the moment and a lack of experience in collisions and lack of an understanding of the consequences of those conclusions. All that a part of going to college in all that is a part of growing up and when you people that are shielding you from aggressions yeah, that is just a part of the. The human in dealing with your more hormones and emotions and yeah you're separated from your family. For the first time in Ireland, Michigan and some crazy university in you got some fat stupid teacher, that's never even existed outside the real world and their dictating your behave, patterns and telling you you're not allowed to use male and female pronouns anymore, and I, like I, like the teachers, I mean you now. I have a lot of friends who are, who are you know they teach universities Sept has done. I will remove the fat stupid. Well, I'm feature, let's say: skinny

smart, really yet or whatever, but it's a job defending that I mean mean mean like physically what I mean it's just like this. This blah blah loaded, sort of lazy entity that is creating this environment, where your your establishing this, my guess is looking what's going on. This is not coming from. Instructors are faculty, but this is coming from the suit, but some of the nomina on, but it is certainly it certainly was. I mean it. It's is a definitely a younger phenomena doesn't like something I deeply entrenched. People who came up, I'm at my professors, are totally. We like friends or feathers, are totally weirded out by it. Don't know how to handle it, they're, not creating that culture. I missed, find something coming from the students who have been raised in this culture of you know. I mean it's, it's a very protective cult

and you don't nobody should have their feelings, hurt and ready. You know nobody should experience failure or rejection me. I think I feel like it's more from that culture than from anything related to the contemporary. Email or that's a vanity thing because isn't contemporary academia, academia, overwhelmingly liberal and progressive. I mean, I think so. I on the political spectrum, when you have something and that's moving in one very particular direction. Often passed people will try to outdo themselves or I completely not in control. I mean this is The reason why I student culture would have so much impact on this is because universities are now like business models and the customer is always right. I mean

It's not. The professor is not the one who is who is going to buy them professors more often than not resist it's really more. The level of the the the business side of a college that is trying to make. You know this make make this a good customer experience for the students I mean. I think that is that it's more of the divide, don't think the the political affiliations of faculty is not. I mean none of that is really what's going on. It's really more about that students pay so much money for college now and they expect lots of perks and they expect they are they're paying for certain experience. I think that is really where you're seeing a lot of the friction com, because that that's pretty great younger generation is

seems to be. If you look at you know what a lot of experts are saying they want, they don't want the things that feel painful or feel like failure or feeling stress. Well, if that's the case, then why are they pointing out all these flaws in and all these other people's behavior to control them and flaws in the way people. Press themselves. Flaw. Yeah, I mean it's part of it is obviously things need to change. Right, I mean or what needs to change, unlike, for instance, I'm a woman. I play games. If I log into an online video game? I don't want to be called a can't every time I log and applying design. It happen, alot, yeah of course, and do you think it happens, a lot, because what we talked about earlier, where the interaction of just dealing in text is very strange in the interaction about people being right there with each other. Yes, I mean absolutely seems like totally unnatural right. Yes, yes and people I mean I don't that doesn't happen to

in real life, that's roughly how many people in real life say those things to nobody. Nobody like how bizarre right, yeah, all the sudden, you turn into this world, so isn't that function almost of the world itself being completely and natural, more so than the people being any different. At work. I'm not sure, but I mean so. All of that is to say there are things that people say and do in everyday life that are legitimately offensive, and I mean I don't use the terminology microagressions. I don't use it to trigger warning terminology, so I think we're like in this period where on one hand, things You need to change in some ways. You know you have Nobel laureate scientists giving speeches where they say that he doesn't like to have women in the lab, because either they follow If you were, you fall in love with them and then you can't work together. I mean when someone a Nobel laureate says that to a conference of you know young scientists that that's not helpful

I don't think, but when he does not know that that was taken out of context. You know the full extent of eyes I mean raise IV was a joke and he was also talking about his wife. Because he met his wife in the lab and it is also making himself to be full Is it was very self deprecate? You do know the excitement. I did read some sort of re reassessment of that Dawkins printed the full version of what he said and it's very different. Also every I rent the phone. I read the full version yeah, so it's like, so this is actually a perfect example, because so if he was joking right. So his intentions are totally good. Is it possible that it's still not helpful to make that that kind of a statement? That's I think, that's what people are talking about. When, if on one hand, there's a lot of interest in trying to increase the number of win, science and technology. Is it

that somebody would hear that and still be kind of. Demoted by it or kind of that have that sink in people are when they're. When we're discussing these things, you don't have to police peoples language, but I think it's. I still think it's useful to say that might not be helpful yeah, there's an article in the leaked transcript the transcript what happened was the people that saw it thought it like at Lee, Some of them thought it was funny, and but there were aspects of what he said that were probably Clumba, see monkey or is trying to be funny and he's really just sort of an odd guy who's. A scientist and people decided that this is an awesome target like let's go after it. Right and should make an example which happens. On the I mean the whole people get Shane,

on the internet. Now, that's that's what happens I mean? Might you know I don't have any expertise in this area, so it's probably You know worth me writing about it. Official quote, he says is strange. Is such a chauvinist Montre like me has been asked to speak to women scientist. Let me tell you about my trouble with girls. His trouble with girls things happen when they were in the lab. You fall in love with them. They fall in love with you and when you criticize them they cry. Perhaps we should make separate labs for boys and girls. Now seriously I'm impressed with the economic development of this is fucked up here of is it was. It was him joking yeah, but he's definitely he's joking playing on stereotypes that girls cry. Girls can't handle criticism, I mean, I'm just saying is not going say that it's,

I think it's totally fine to say hey when you say these things it might result in some girl. Thinking wait. Maybe I'm not going to be a good scientist, be people say the girls aren't good in the lab or whatever it is. I wouldn't say it? That's yeah, I wouldn't say it: I try to be maybe you know, even when we say things like about people who play games a lot, you know they're wasting their life You want to go out and do something real. I don't think that's useful to say there. I think that that's actually can be early damaging. Some modernity generalize. You know men yeah this and we'll do that, and girls are good at being in the lab and it's it's it's it's damaging and I think now he understands that a joke like that as innocent, as is he might have intended it to be when you're reading it in a text form

clean. You taken some of it out of context. It can be, it can be offensive. It can be hurtful for someone who can consider like me how many girls were reading that they were considering a possible career in science when I don't have to deal with people like this, like I don't want to I'm going to cry in your lab asshole. I just want to work. I want to be a scientist yeah, so we need to like police people to have this conversation of so that was just sort of exposed in some ways it exposes prevalent attitudes that this guy, who is this esteemed Nobel Winning scientist, has this attitude. You know that he thinks it's funny to joke around about it and like, even, if he's, not a sexist or a bad guy him making this joke about himself being some chauvinist monster yeah, and it's because one of the things is because his wife is a and feminist, and so he jokes around about him being a chauvinist monster yeah. You know well that makes sense yeah, but I mean that's

it's all out of context, and it's all also you're dealing with a guy who's. Who's real focuses. His re search, not social interaction. He's not like a nuanced speaker, is not a guy who is a carefully considered speaker who gets on stage and thinks about everything and the impact of all I mean like we were talking about like awkward interaction that people might have in college. Well, this guys awkward interaction. Is him being forced to write a speech like if he did this a bunch of times? You probably get really way batter and you, if you shut down with him alone. In you guys are just talking over a glass of wine. Maybe you'd understand how his brain works better. Maybe I would have been more useful. I mean if some offend you, it's more you, will have a conversation about it than to just start. You know yeah, but it's fun the log and shit. All this guy is gay.

All these white, yeah, famous or also somebody will write a book about the neurochemistry of outrage soon, because it's a it's it's own high, you know it's recreational record national outrage is without a doubt, a real thing right now and I think that that's what's going on in colleges and that people are finding when you're in college, when you were talking about the addiction that people have to video games and one of the things that sort of stimulates that addiction is, if you're trying to avoid things in your regular lie. Well, if you're in college, the overwhelming anxiety of being a young person who has gone from being living with their parents going to high school now you're in college, and you are just a couple years away from the cliff of real world take your fuckin sliding towards it you're trying to define it and redefine it and change it and establish yourself and then along the way comes things that you can be angry at well, you will point your fucking fury. There are the unmeasured or unbalanced fury at those things.

It doesn't necessarily make sense, but it makes to you, because what you're really doing is you're, avoiding the angst of social anxiety of of sexual injection and all the shit that makes a person feel weird things and you channel that towards Microagressions or you channel that towards Someone treat you deciding to the address you with a male or female female, like there's a lot of weirdness to in a person and that that, but you know it's. The last thing I want to say about this is part of it is, I think, people just trying to make new roles for the game right.

No end and when you're trying to change the rules of the game that is really upsetting. If you're in the middle, the game yeah, I had a game of it. A lot wait totally yeah. I can't do that now and g we've always been here and she yeah yeah yeah yeah. I think you're playing soccer. You can't kick the ball anymore, with your feet like right here in the middle of the game, right right right so, but that it doesn't mean as a game is I'm say it doesn't mean that there isn't a better game that actually could have different rules. But it's really upsetting to be in the middle of the game and have somebody say, wait

right. Those are the rules. Yes out, you know. Maybe we should. Maybe we should. I don't know. I don't know how to do it better, because I mean look, I'm a progressive person and I'm glad that things are changing in society in lots of ways. You know that I'm excited about. But what makes you happy? What do you? What do you think is good about the changes in society in a progressive way? I'm I'm really glad that we have marriage equality. Now, I'm really excited about that. I'm glad that I mean turn it and maternity leave. You know becoming more p having longer term leave and for the same, like paternity leave for dads as a new parent. I am really excited sure he's doing that and I like I, like you know I like that, were so talk about income inequality. I mean optimistic that there will be changes in that direction and I, I think that I think the black lives matter. It's hugely important movement. I think

so. I think there's a lot of conversations going on right now where people are angry I have struggled or feel like they've been playing a rigged game, and so it's not it's not gonna be pleasant and not all the tactics are going to be effective for good either, but but the general attitude is definitely moving in a more progressive direction. I think so, and even as somebody who has been you know, I've I've had twitter. You know hordes yelling at me because they thought that I was breaking one of the new rules of

our supposed to like what the people your cell might. One of the biggest as I had was about that my recommendations for playing tetris after a trauma, so they've been multiple randomized control studies out of Oxford University, showing that, if you play tetris within twenty four hours of a traumatic event, it will reduce the flashbacks. You have the severity of flashbacks and other PTSD symptoms, because it occupies your brain and prevent your brain from kind of locking in an obsessive, compulsive way on the trauma right. This is, I think this is incredibly important advice that everyone should know kind of like stop, drop and roll. You know if you catch on fire, you know what to do. Everybody should have tetris on their phone and have it available to them. If, because I know having suffered flashbacks from my,

head injury. How I mean I would have nightmares and beat of which I was hitting my head. I would feel it as if it real I'd wake up and I'd be convinced that I had hit my head in the middle of the night and was going to have this experience all over again just nightmares constant So I know how bad is no one to to do it. When I started tweeting about it, people I got told that they need to be like trigger warnings on my tweets, because I was mentioning PTSD and I might make somebody out like a trauma that they'd experienced in. Well they're trying to change the game yeah. So it's like, I understood I don't you know I've. I've been on the other side of it where people have said that I'm doing it wrong But at the same time I recognize there people who are suffering or an re or they have been at a disadvantage because of the way the game is rigged, and so I'm, okay with this, is their being like we're all gonna be uncomfortable for awhile. As these things change and

that's you know so, you're uncomfortable with being unjustly accused of being- and of we bring out the scientific research that shows that the game can help you with trauma yeah I mean I, I think, I'm with that I've I've, I'm gonna, keep doing it you now. I understand that the people who say it are hurting the people who who are telling see that I'm triggering that so irrational. I think it all irrational behavior like that, should either be ignored or shit on. I really do. I just think it's dangerous. I think it's dangerous when it gets pointed out you're pointing out the scientific aspects of a very specific activity. That's very good trauma and they're saying that you shouldn't talk about that now. That's nonsense! That's why I still talk about it I don't want to get into a fight with them about now. You certainly don't you should ignore them or shit on them. If you, depending on how you feel, but I think that

there's there's. Definitely I like I like how were dispatched to finding a life is like a giant game or is equal to a giant game, because I think that that's what's going on also with the reaction, the negative reaction to progressive thinking now, like I was tweeting something about this woman in Kentucky that was trying to stop. People from getting gay marriage licenses- and I really I took few days where I wasn't paying attention to twitter that much and didn't know that there was this giant movement supporting this woman, and I went to MIKE Huckabee's fucking Twitter page and saw that this crazy, old asshole was like saying that there's a war against Christians and that, like hashtag religious liberty, and so I was like that, doesn't religious liberty doesn't mean you enforce your religion on other people like that, so crazy, and there was so much below I got so many people tweeting at me, angrily tweeting at me for saying, like

if we did something about TED Cruz, about how ridiculous his views are on gay marriage and like that, he's probably gay and I can be bliss in a way that I talk to super feminine like this like how many times we have to see this with these men right, you have a bit that I used to do my act. There's two types of people that hate gay marriage is either you really dumb or you're secretly worry. The decks are delicious. Those are the people and like this guy is like there's something going on here. Why we care so much about two people that are in love that but watching the p. They're angry, that the game is being redefined, and there was all this. It was all this. Christian stuff, that was attached to it like. Well, guess what guess, what else it says not to do in the Bible? It says not to get divorced like this lady, the same lady who's been divorced three times she's on her fourth marriage, guess what else it says: you're not supposed to have tattoos all these people are tattooed is religious symbols on them. You gotta on your arm and you tattooed it you suck, and you got to read the whole book crazy, like the things that they choose

and it what it is is like trying to they're trying to define the world that they're playing in yeah trying to define again. I think it's important, because, even though I might disagree, I mean I vehemently disagree with people whose perspective seem to be filled by hate, but I think it's important to still try to have the empathy or that the mental insight to understand. Why does this make them feel so bad? I think what you just said knew the feeling that you thought you understood the rules me religion as a set of rules. He thought even so that you're you're playing the game are right. You're doing it right and it is, it is psychologically distressing to have. Somebody else tell you were playing a different game: yeah. You know your game, socks and you're not going to play it anymore. It.

I I try to understand where those feelings are coming from, because if you're gonna change people's minds, you know you have to. I think you have to acknowledge that they are in a real. They are really in distress about this. You know that I'm doing this to to be jerks, I mean they, before this change is transferred to them. Why are they in distress about something that doesn't directly affect them? because of what you just said because it is it is, it feels it's. They have committed to a framework, a set of rules and put that's it once you're in it you're in it, and- and you know, when playing a game. You always try to stop the cheaters and you protect the boundaries of the game. That's some minds that you get into and they just they think they're. Just doing is my country that was established by christian values. The fucking games locked, He can't change rules. That's it

he does seem like we was kind of touched on something here. This is. This has been a really good one for me as so the overall looking at the whole existence, as instead of defining it by the word game, but looking at it with almost the same sort of attitude or approach that you would look at a game is very beneficial good, it's worked for Maine your eyes got big ling. Saucers, like you like you did it, you did it. You scored you made it happen yeah. I think also like the ebb and flow of culture like the things that are seemed to definitely even Even though I resist like this nonsense about microaggressions and trigger warnings and stuff, like that, I'm very happy that things are moving in the direction of acceptance. Very happy that you know like you can be whatever the fuck you want. You decide you're a woman today go ahead as long as you don't hurt anybody who cares this guy want,

wear dresses, and you want. He wants you to call him Jane now, fine, ok, so these two guys want to get married to each other terrific. You know these people want to stop wearing makeup and they want to. What do you give a shit? Who cares who cares or they want to dye their hair? Blue. That's fine, too, like eventually we'll all figure out that we are all just unique in visuals that are a part of this gigantic super organism and the most conducive way or the most harmonic way harmonious. Wait for us to interact with each other is to fuck with each others path, the least whatever path, you're, on your way in your game, as long as it doesn't like negatively affect people as long as you're, not a destroyer, you know out there. Your path is to burn down to the Beatles House. As your path is to steal, your path is done to hurt. People is that's not going on why care, and then, ultimately, once that is established, I think then we will focus on ok. What are our rear? Real issues are

issues aren't gay people getting married to each other, a real issues, the people that are actually are burning, houses down the people that Stealing, these are the real issues that people have people that are not micro, aggressions but actual aggressions. People that are actually committing crimes against each other people there and one? Are they doing that? Well, what is wrong with their game? What happened to them what what series of events of place them in this sort of exertion yeah yeah, because it's not I mean people don't get into that in a vacuum no. I think that's also something you realize once you have children like you have now and as a father. One of the things is changed radically in my life is seen people now like when I mean people, I see them as babies that have grown up. I don't see them isn't being in a static state yeah. You know and

It's very strange like even that I mean I look at them and even though I got a I think of them as like what happened to that person. But you know that's like it's that's I I practices and Buddhism, and that's like one of the big latest meditations is to picture people as babies like when you feel hate, for somebody try to visualize them all the way down to the little baby self and picture what they look like as a baby and to think about who they were when they were that baby before all of life happened to them to make them into somebody that has now triggered these. You know hate feel of anger- is also in the womb. You know, I was talking to my horror, so famous pro football player who's talking to me about kids that grow up in horrible varmints, dangerous vault environments,

the mother has all the cortisol in her brain while the child in the womb and the kid literally grows up like with a short temper. Literally, there Dave developed out of the womb MIKE constantly about stress in danger: yeah yeah, all of that of that feral cats, but that was Farrah little raised and he was fucking terrified of everything from the time he was a baby and I locked myself in a room with him when he was a kitten, because the only way, bond with him. I stayed with him for like put a bunch of books in the room and cat food and uh. Box under like you made, were hanging out and when I come near when you feel like you just jump on the walls and like you've, never seen anything like a feral kitten, I mean he was really little to just a couple months old and when I would get to him and pick him up, he would start purring. If I only somebody loves me like like, but then when you put him down like the same

pat, which is because his brain was programmed from the time he was a little baby and there was not a lot he could do. I couldn't say that cats asshole will know that fucking cat was born under an apartment building. You know His mom was like running away from traffic and trying to eat rats or whatever the they could kill. Yeah. I think this is one of the reasons why game thinking is so powerful because you diss him out and see the bigger stronger us that it's it's there's, always a bigger game and more pieces of play and you're getting other people's. You know, strategies or actions. Are you know or the rules you know in being able to zoom out and see that makes you feel, I think what you have more perspective, more wisdom and maybe more compassion for other people. That's also why people like to rightly so Chris I very narrow, minded small town thinking, small little environments, insulated environments that are very, you know,

very critical, criticizing or very you know, just just have their way set, and they don't a wide variety of experiences they can draw upon, or they don't have a. Broad nuanced view of the board that they're playing on yeah. So this is like this is giving me a lot of what are food for thought about. I mean the links between social change and game, full thing there's something there. I think also as time is going on and This is one thing. The positive aspects of social media end of the internet itself. Is that we're getting more and more information instead of just accepting these preconceived notions that we have about different groups of people now we're being. Supposed to so much data, it's just inadvertently or

inarguably changing the way we view those groups and that you're forced to like when you see like this black lives matter thing, you see all these peaceful protests where these people are talking eloquently speaking and showing video after video of police brutality and then I've had I had a cop on Michael would, who was Baltimore retired Baltimore police officer that talked about very openly talked about the institutional racism and about how they had found papers from the 1970s that were describing how to behave in certain environments that were exactly the same as what's going on. Now, it's like this is a fucking system. This is that I don't think that attitude existed just a few years ago, and people we're looking at all that data now and it's slowly coming around and even the hard liners are dropping. You know if they were at a ten now there at eight or seven wells, Fargo and kids. You need to go to school or some

you know. It's like everyone is sort of slowly recognizing the pieces that are in play. It's a lot more complicated than we want to you know just narrowly sort of define them in these. These really simplistic terms where it's not simple. There's a a series of interactions that are going on all over the globe are human. Being they are trying to find their way in there also realizing somewhere along the line that their parents weren't, these all, knowing creatures, neither were their parents, neither were the pro Roosevelt or Fucking Abe Lincoln. They were all people that were trying to find their way as well, and this is a group effort, it's a group effort still going on. It's not even remotely done it's not even close yeah. So it's ok! So, instead of seeing the bigger picture, we will see the bigger game, and that will be that will guide us, yes, bring it all back to super better. Alright, you gotta get outta here going to catch a flight. So thank you very much I'll put you

your video up on twitter. An will put your the link to your book, which is available right now right. Well, it drops next Tuesday, but you can buy it now or you buy it now in yet but you can get it next Tuesday, all right with. Thank you so much. We really really appreciate it all right and what's your twitter dress again, it's advanced game. A v, a n t t a M Ny. You can just search for my name, Jane Games, it'll come up our beautiful. Thank you so much awesome time. Thank my friends for tuning into the mother, fucking podcast thanks to draftkings dot com, that's draftkings, dot com use the code Rogan and played for free this weekend for a shot at ten million dollars. Apart of ten billion dollars: Jamie Jesus Christ. That's a lot of money, whoadraftkings dot com! So, but you buy me, undies underwear, I'm wearing right now, today, in each and every fucking day, go to

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Lacey, Caveman, coffee, co, dot com go there by the best tasting coffee you ever going to fucking get your life, including multi coffee, subscriptions all right folks, that's it at the end. Have reached it thanks. So much we'll be back tomorrow with my friend Sebastian Sebastian, Maniscalco fucking hilarious stand up comedian and a great guy He Showtime special out and just all around very funny very cool dude, so that'll be tomorrow until then enjoy your life and get a kiss for you here. He means.