Hello, everybody, this podcast in all of them are fueled by cave man, coffee go to Caveman, coffee, c, o dot com and get in on some of the falcons. Deliciousness have you ever had that's a fact. It sounds like bullshit, though right I give a commercial, my say best tasting coffee, but it's the best I drink this shit everyday. I don't give a fuck if it sounds fake anyway, on to the sponsors. Squarespace, dot com. Folks, if you need a fuckin website, there's one solution: it's so much easier than the others and it is square space Square, Space can take care of all of the bullshit that you all but narrowly would have to hire someone to do. You could build your own profile, open a website, an do it for eight bucks a month and you get a free domain name. If you sign up for a year. What is square space square space

is an easy to use, drag and drop interface that allows to create a beautiful professional website on your own, with zero hassle plus twenty four slash, seven support. So if you fucking weirdos up in the middle of the night, making a website like that they can help you not only that they have a thing called cover pages feature that allows you to set up a beautiful one, page online presence in minutes. You get free online store and you don't even need a crib hard to try it there's so confident in their product. They allow you to try, it can Pleat Lee set it all up and then then, once you do it once you say you know what this is my fucking website I want to sign up then use the offer code Joe and you get ten percent off your first purchase to go to squarespace dot com use the offer code, Joe a free trial, no credit card, Quired start building your website today and again, once you do,

to sign up, use the offer code, Joe Square space, dot com. Thank you very much for your support square space. We love the fuck outta, you freaks, he uh huh. That's right! Lot of sponsors here today, ladies and gentlemen, we're also brought to you by me undies my all time, motherfucking favorite underwears. What is me on these looks what me undies is an amazing company that provides you with underwear online that you would to pay way more for if you bought 'em from a store because they don't have a retail outlet, they can sell you. The best God, Damn underwear in the world. I wear every I'm wearing them now, twice as soft as whatever underwear you're wearing now, because they're made from something called mode? All mold is some amazing fabric that I don't really know a lot about

but what I do know about it is there's a lot of natural, fibers and fabrics that are better than cotton wool well known as being better than cotton, but she don't want wool panties. Do you know that shit would itch, but mold all doesn't feel fucking awesome and it's it, wicks water, away from your genitals, who makes you feel better, we all know that paying for shipping sucks. So me, undies has remove that from the equation. All orders in the US and Canada ship for free me, uh, He even has a money back guarantee. That's how fucking good their underwear are. If you don't love your first pair, you get to keep for free. You literally have nothing to lose to sweeten up the d. Show me under me: undies is offering you twenty percent off your first order at me, uh these dot com, Slash, Rogan, that's a special off just for my listeners, so make sure you,

meundies dot com, Slash Rogan, to get twenty percent off your first order just so they know that we sent you. Last but not least, were brought to each and every episode by onnit dot com. If you go to an it, you can check out what he optimization is all about. What we are all about is selling products that optimize your physical fitness that optimize your mental fitness. What is that Joe? What are you talking about? I'm talking about new folks, mother fucker, I'm talking about vitamins and nutrients that enhance the way your brain functions. Are you skeptical? You should be, and that's why we have conducted not one conducted conducted, that's what they do in Kentucky. They can put things We have conducted not one but two randomized clinical trials that show results and improve it's in verbal memory, processing, speed and peak alpha flow state. All the information for all that is available at on it dot com,

as well as a host of strength and conditioning equipment like kettle bells, maces battle, ropes, sandbags, all sorts of cool, go dot com use, the code, Word Rogan and save ten percent off any and all supplements. Alright. My guests today is one of my favorite guess, he's just a fucking all around great guy, incredibly knowledgeable and uh. I learn a lot every time I talk to his name is doctor crawl, heart he's a scientist and activist and educator and all- and he has one book- that's out right now: fucking, Google, it I forgot the name of it. I think it's world Jesus Christ, high price, Neuro, scientist, journey of self discovery. That chat is everything you know about drugs, society and more it's an excellent book and he's just an uh

ron, awesome dude. So without any further ado, please welcome my friend doctor Crow hard, the Joe Rogan experience. Yes, welcome back doctor heart good to see brother good to be here for the sucker right up to you right there good to be. I was in Mexico City Annum in my hotel room and there's only like two different channels that speak English. Some while I'm forced to watch Fox news- and I saw you on the Bill- O'Reilly show those clusterfuck shows where they have one person like Bill O'Reilly's the host, and then they have all these boxes with all these different people an everyday talking over everybody and the nothing only last like three minutes and their tackling these complex subjects. You got maybe like a half a sentence out before you got interrupted. I don't even remember what that uh

it was. It must have had something to do with drugs and addiction. They brought you on right, yeah. I think that episode was drugs, an texting addiction, texting addiction. Really that's what it was it. It did generate it into texting, addiction, yeah, Jesus Christ. It was marijuana or something, and then it was never one initially right, because we were concerned about what they were concerned about. The high does suppose it high number of marijuana users to new hi number right and then the thing is is that I was trying to make clear that the numbers of marijuana users today is considerably lower than that. What they were in nineteen, seventy, eight or one thousand nine hundred and eighty, but they weren't aware of the information from ninety seventy eight or one thousand nine hundred and eighty is that, like the numbers per capita 'cause, there's so many more people now no yeah, it was percentage of, in this case, the percentage of high school students who were pretty marijuana use in the past thirty days of the past year.

Okay, he is like I I recently found out that there is a hundred million less Americans in nineteen. Seventy. Then there are today yeah that sounds about right yeah. This is crazy, if you really Even think about that mean forty whatever years ago, one hundred million, less people yeah we're still growing yeah we're crazy. We can't keep this up. That's ridiculous! So they were, they were smoking more pot back then more kids, more percent higher percentage. You have the highest percentage of Americans who were smoking or using any illegal drug, was about one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight in nineteen. Eighty at that time period it hasn't been anywhere near that high today, it was probably like right after the Nixon administration like that Idiot Probably had everybody just doing drugs when you get a president, that's that messed up gets busted with

you know Watergate, and you know all just all the foolishness and involved in his administration. I bet he led people to drugs. Well, you know it does the a lot of theories about it, but you know one of the theories is that people became distrustful of government and things that government was saying so not only that kids were experimenting in the sixties and it's set in, and this was later in the seventeen. They were still experiment and being distrustful of the government. So it's not surprising, but the thing is: is that even then going to use rates weren't that high really I mean because the people who were using marijuana at the time there now running the country there now doing yeah there in these responsible positions and they're doing about as well as previous generations, and so it's not a big deal that people use drugs. In fact, you know I'm working on a new book, and the thing is is that what I'm going to argue in the new book is that more people,

be using drugs like when you say more people should be using drugs. Here's a thing about. I hate the term I had this two terms that I have a real problem with. I don't I don't hate him, but I think they're there waited a it is one of 'em and drugs is another one because action is like when you start talking about addicting being addicted to texting. I have friends that are definitely they definitely are in line to check their phone way too much like they feel compelled when they're in traffic. They could feel like. There is a red light in there. Like, oh good, let me check my phone like I'm at a red light like Jesus Christ, what the is going on, but I think that's an impulse, is just a foolish pattern of thought to call that in addiction and then to call like alcoholism the same thing where you could literally die. If you

stop drinking well, that's crazy that these are not the same things yeah! Well, you know when we think about addiction. It's a simple sort of definition that we use in Madison and the definition is that, does it cause you a tremendous amount of distress and is it disrupting your social occupational, your family sort of functioning, that's kind of it I mean so people can the indulgent behavior everyday multiple times a day, but they're handling their responsibilities and they're not distressed about this behavior. They wouldn't meet criteria. Addiction, whereas somebody could like use alcohol or cocaine. There are some drug once a month or once per week or what have you and then they have all of these destruction surrounding that drug use. And they may meet criteria for addiction, whereas I could be using cocaine every day but handle in my responsibilities. It I'm not distressed by it. I don't have these problems there

later to it, I'm not an addict, even though I'm using it every day. So Dixon has to do with social disruptions and being distressed, not actual amount of use or how many times you engage in the behavior. But this sort of definition is missed upon many of people in the general population yeah, most people don't think about it. That way, most people think that if you don't use it your and like, if you don't it will save, you do do something. Every day like I had a friend, who was a longshoreman and he worked with this guy. That would shoot heroin everyday at lunch, an that always freaking out 'cause. The guys showed up for work everyday on time. He was a responsible guy, he was married, he had children and this guy would get heroin. He would cop every morning he would go there and he would sit in his truck and he would shoot up and you know whatever. However long that lasts, you know he gets an hour. Lunch

rank and he would come back and go to work, and I would like every day every day, as I did every day. Well, you know I, this past summer, the past three months to survive. I was I was in Geneva. I just got back in the states and I is working in a heroin clinic where they administer heroin every day, seven days a week twice a day to people who meet criteria for heroin addiction and when I say they administer heroin, I don't mean, like small doses, I mean doses that go up to like a gram. Day, one thousand milligrams a day a lot more than what people use here in the states typically, and these people who are getting heroin everyday large percentage of them, also go to work. A large percentage of them have families and they're taking Their responsibilities they are is their treatment and this is a treatment that works for them, but their treatment include two daily doses of intravenous

Caroline seven days a week, you know and and so like. When I think about one of the reasons I went there- and I did this because we we think of heroin in this country. We think of it as such is evil drugs and that's just the american mythology and that's just wrong. That's ignorance, and but that's how many, including drug experts in this country, think of heroin, but that's his. We have all that is great technology, but you're so ignorant when it comes to many of these drugs, so Heroin administered intervene basically on a daily basis is not it's not devastating? No, in fact, some people would do better about having the daily dose is a daily dose of heroin or another opiate. No, I was not devastating. Does he even me? I would go over fuck man, that's gotta, fuck you up like taking heroin everyday. It's been this whole journey. Miss since I saw you last time. I've been all over the world and this

whole to see what people do with drugs which, with drugs they're using and how they do it. It's been. So I open even for me, someone who has spent their life study in drugs and I'm learning so much more now, but the swiss experiences, but the Dutch also do this, there's some parts of Germany that does this. They have small programs in in the. U K, they had small program there, other countries, but this was by far have the biggest program. They've been the most that's. What they've been doing this for more than twenty years now, and he started doing this in response to the h I v concerned people worried about foes getting HIV, so they have to do something had to help clean needles. We had to make sure that drugs? Were pure city worry bout, Dat H, I v all of those things, and this was the rational response when they put it in the medical community, where people got treatment and and along with their hair one, and they have no plans of going back no ship date because it work

boy, that's hard for Americans to swallow right in is it because of all propaganda, we've been fed. Is it because just misinformation, I mean you would say propaganda, but even me the someone who is a prodrug for the most part person, I would say God in Heroin, everyday he's probably going to fuck you up yet, but you raise a good question. Is that part of the propaganda I? I don't know I mean. Obviously there are people who are you used is as part of propaganda, but in part, but not. I don't think they're trying to use this popcorn and I think they're ignorant and their clothes, meaning people, but then there are other people just think about. The films Trainspotting, you think of a number of these films. All of films now can't use that salacious story, any more. A death grip us, it's not reality, but it's good makes great films. It make great sort of subjects with documentaries, on

think about musical heroes and people who say well, they were misunderstood, so they use heroin that's not. I mean they use heroin, because it's a rational sort of use of the But when you think about it's ability to decrease anxiety, its ability to make people or have people relaxed just be in a space where they finally can get some peace. When you think about all of the thing things that many of these sort of musical icons or these great artists have to deal with its rational it, x, rational, since the thing that I'm trying to do is it's a? How do we? How do we allow people to do these things and be safe? How do we still keep from say because people going to do it? That's a fact. I mean we've been trying to get rid of heroin or in our country for sometimes but every year we have one hundred to two one hundred thousand new heroin users every year. That number has not changed for forty years and I don't expect

to change well. If that number hasn't changed, but the population is increased now, how does that work? What that's why it's like between a hundred and two hundred thousand every year that that It's a bit, it's been fluctuating between those numbers, and but the point is that we're going to have a substantial proportion of heroin users new new heroin use. These are new heroin use every year end on top of that people don't consider the people that take opiates in pill form that are prescribed by their doctors, which is incre. The and I've known many people live close family instead of ruin their lives getting fucked up on pills. You know I want to say addicted, but now I'm reluctant to say addicted, but what may be somewhere addicted. I mean, maybe that describes some people, but but please understand the majority of people who use those pills you

and responsibly and they know what they're doing. But there are people like you said who ruin their lives. That's a result, but the thing that we have to think about is that if the majority of the users of these pills are fine, and then you have this subset a smaller subset who are not, it tells and it's not the pills but but at the same token, dirt still some issues I have with the way we have our pills or or the way we do up pills in this country. Opiate pills we put acetaminophen in these pills, and which I am not a fan of having the seat of Madison in those fields, because Acida Medison is the number one reason for liver, toxicity and so so sometimes the people really want to push a dose of their opiate. They have to get even more acetaminophen. That would that's the more dangerous of the 2in no situation, this situation, why do they put acetaminophen in the pill? What is the function of it?

it is stated that they put Acida Medison in the pill, because it's an added pain reliever, but I don't think that's the real reason. I think the real reason that is in the peel is think of it. This way on the California highway. I think the maximum speed limit is like. C five or seventy. Now imagine if someone designed so a car and let had tires on it that blew out when you reach seventy five miles per hour. So it's like this safety valve, so you blow out the tires, as somebody exceed the speed limit. I think acetaminophen is in the pills and opiate pills. For that reason, you take much you blow out your liver. You died really, so you think they put it in there for added liver toxicity to make sure people don't take too much of the opiates. I think, is in there yet to discourage to do with the use of Sophie is absolutely wow. I think that I think that sick and I think that that's a problem, because, when you think about even other countries like

Geneva or Switzerland. You don't see acetaminophen in these medications like they are here. You certainly don't have people prescribing them like they do here with the acetaminophen. You know it's like you don't need that in there. If you want Can you take an additional pain reliever, you prescribe it or you tell him, you recommend it, but you don't need to number one reason for liver toxicity in with opiates, I think, is there to have people blow out their livers or do to discourage people from taking. Are opiates, so would that be to alleviate their responsibility to make sure that less people have opiate addictions like what that doesn't make any sense to me, yeah, so it's like a okay. If you not old that you, if you, if you take too much acetaminophen and that would discourage you from taking the the opiates, that's what I think the reason it why

it seems weird to me that seems like they would have to of had a paper trail in order to I mean it seems like that. That has to be some that would be discussed. Well. I think that, like I said, the the stated reason is that it provides an additional payment and I'm saying it doesn't skinny sense if you want to have that additional pain. Reliever simply gives somebody acetaminophen or ibuprofen or something else, but you don't need to put it in round each other yeah. So would they do that to make some sort of a proprietary blend or something like that where their pills would be different than others that make any sense. No, no, because these things are all generic. Now right. There so there's no one making tons of money at the result of this they're all generic and they all now that stuff in them?

in the United States thing about you've heard of. If I couldn't fight it in is, I think, oxy code own and see the medicine Percocet perks that actually is oxy code, own bike, it in that's hydrocodone and acetaminophen, but all of these purposes Kirkus set Park at Dan. If I can- and all of these things have acetaminophen in wow, you know I don't have a lot of experience with opiates, but I did get a knee surgery once and they gave me this morphine drip. They gave me this little thing that you could press anytime. You want that didn't have a seat of benefit. I press shit out that button, but that did not have that did not did not that didn't have a seat in benefit and and like you say, you press that button, and then you probably need it that's cool that end. You are successful. You doing your thing, you have a successful podcast, I mean that's. Luckily I don't know man for kept kept me with that, but

might be still in hospital bed now. You know that you know yeah exactly I'm just fucking around, but I do have a friend that broke his nose. My friend Brendan Schaub. He broke his girls in the put him on those pills they put him on a oxycontins after the game. No surgery and his friends want up taking them away from after a couple months. He was just taking him all day. He could certainly could like. I said, then there are some people who get in trouble, but the vast majority of people don't, but the problem is that people they're simple reframe is that is these pills, not these pills? So you think that some people just have that sort of compulsive behavior and that behavior could manifest itself and drinking too much coffee or it could manifest itself and taking those pills or it's essentially the behavior. That's an issue more than it is the actual substance of the medicine. Well, you know people over indulge in activities for a variety of reasons and if we re

We want to understand why they do it. We have to understand that individual person situation and oftentimes whit too, damn lazy to do the and then it's so much easier just to blame the drug. But when we blame the drug there are some serious consequences and ' That's what I'm saying it's like. The consequences is that now we have this new legislation. We have this new effort to go out the people who use these drugs and that consequences. Those consequences are inappropriate, and so that's why I try to get people to be like well. Look at the individual person situation. What happened with that person 'cause it ain't the drug. I assure you that that's it's fascinating, that in Switzerland they're doing that is Geneva. That's where you said it was well Geneva. Zurich burn, yeah throughout the major cities and Swiss and they're giving them these high doses. Do they have a program if we want to wean off if these people want to stop doing it yeah. So this

program is for people who want to stop people who want to continue. They also methadone. They have people northing, they have uh, there's sort of treatments as well, but they just dismissed one of many options, that's all and Methadone is what we always heard of in America, like, I think I told the story. The last time you were here, but I used to play pool at this place that was right next to on methadone clinic and these people that would go and they'd get their methadone. Then they'd come up. Play pool, and they just look like zombies would call them methadone Ian's at least to call them they would come over just zoned out and they would just fucking out of it and this. Guy that I work with saying uhm he's like you know that methadone shit they give him is actually worse than heroin, and I like that, doesn't make any sense. Why? Wouldn't they just give him heroin? Well, I mean that's the question that the swiss ass. Why don't you just give people what they want, I mean so there are their answers. To that question I mean you will use. You said that methadone was probably worth it. Certainly,

can be for some people. 'cause, the half life of methadone is a lot longer. It lasts forever. It stays in your blood for a long time compared to heroin, so some people say? Well, you know I don't want to have a long, acting opiate such that it makes me feel kind of slow. That's why I want to use heroin as opposed to metal where's, all the people that they don't work for. That's fine, whatever works up, but then there are people who said it would just give folks what they want and that's what the swiss say in in this case what heroin they'll be some heroin users who say I want to get off of heroin. I want to whatever I can do to get off, because I want to choose a needle, for example, an methadone works well for them, buprenorphine works well for them, but then there are other people who just say. No. I want to continue to use run with the needle and as an adult, you should have that right should have that option. Yet

is the issue right? Isn't it because if we can freely purchase alcohol and even more insidious in a way. Is the amount of sugar consumption that people in this country especially, are consumption of sugar. This is something I've really been focusing on a lot lately, because I've been educating my kids about how much sugar is in things? It's be hilarious, because my seven year old was talking my five year old yesterday and she's, like there's nine grams of sugar, in that they have this little conversation about this thing that she wants to drink. That supposed to be healthy She's, like reading it, there's nine grams to see a seven, We will do that in my wow. This is kind of cool, but sugar can fuck people lives up for sure, and I know a lot of people that are addicted to sugar. Not just compare to eat it, but it actually changes their gut flora. The actual the floor inside their body cream gives this to the point where these people it gets. They get crazy for it. People get really.

Easy for sugar and it just causes all sorts of health consequences, but no one wants to say: hey. We should outlaw candy bars. No one should say that right, exactly right, right, same thing was booze right now we have we could we all everyone in this room. We could drink ourselves to death. Just with this shit that I have in my closet over here and that little kitchen, we could go in there and just show those bottles and we'd all be dead. They'd find us all dead, that's crazy right, but we won't do it right exactly, but We just drove a car here I mean I could have just driven that car off of the cliff, but we don't do that, because we are adults- and we are you know- we have some autonomy we should be true with sugar. The same should be true with these drugs, but that thing is- is that one of the thing that concerns us about sugar is that for so long we've been lied to about the role of sugar and disease, and so people didn't realize that sugar was causing all of these problem,

and so people felt like they would miss layer. That's ok! Now we have better education. So now you make these decisions with your eyes. Open the same could be done with drugs. You make these decisions with your eyes, open, you're, an adult you certainly can get in trouble with this particular drug or that particular drug. But here's how you do it more safely, You certainly can get in trouble with sugar, but here's how you can do it in a way. That's reasonable and a more safe than not and through education instead of demonising things and by propaganda, and I being more realistic. That's it! You know it's the! We are very judgmental and moralistic about a number of things, and I think that the drug issue is ideal for the a perpetuating on moralism yeah. That's it's a weird one to right, because don't you drink wine and church, this sort of one that's fucking happen

search in the last seventy either, but I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure that's supposed to signify the blood of Christ right is that it yeah it's booze hooked up which type for Jesus, but it's it would would just we're we're we're very strange and what we allow and don't allow other adults human beings to do and that that really is sort of gets to. The heart of all this and then we're also very squeamish about the idea of needles and when you say this program in Geneva, Super successful in the given people intravenous heroin, it's one thousand milligrams a day and like Wod needles Jesus, you know. That's something the actual,

Administration of it like the method of administration, makes people squeamish yeah, you know, but we give needles in hospitals. We do those sorts of things and one of the things about this program. That's nice is that they have clean needles, they have clean drug, and so it decreases the likelihood that they would have abscesses it's no sort of things or other sort of blood borne illnesses or concerns they're decreased. In fact, people are more healthy being in these programs and obviously the not being in programs so date they have made me me, so intravenous heroin can in effect act. In a lot of the ways that maybe some prescription drugs like Xanax or maybe some anti depressants, do they alleviate the anxiety that certain people have? Oh yeah, I mean the hair

one sort of ours so numbers these people have to tell you they have psychiatric illness suck. Some of them have schizophrenia. Someone have depression, they have a wide range of bill. This is just like any other identified addicted population. Her one, for example, helps people in in many cases, controlled, error, sort of psychotic, be they're sort of delusions, and so her one can be a very useful drugs in a wide range of soda for price range of symptoms. We know this at least people medicine, though this is a well. Let me clarify lease people in medicine outside of the United States know this. This is it. This is now anything. That's earth shattering or groundbreaking. Well, what is

difference between the education that they receive outside of the United States and inside the United States, just the bias that we have about certain medicines yeah. We we cannot divorce our drug education from our social control, and so when we think about how drugs or drug policy has been used to go out, the groups that we don't like and if we are not a part of the out group, we just kind of accept this information uncritically and we've been told that people who use heroin they have those issues and they're not like us? There are those people, and why is why, should we question we don't know them very well and we see people put a needle in their arm. Something must be wrong with them So you can tell all of these incredible stories. Physicians believed these stories in this country our medical experts or addiction experts believe this sort of stuff. But it's not true. It's not reality, and

so that's one of the reasons that I traveled or not continued to travel and to learn, and I'm learning so much about my bye bye. You sees that I held and that I'm trying to get rid of I'm trying to really just focus on the evidence. So in a sense like the United States, is very unique in its in its propaganda and in unique, and it's sort of singular view on drugs. Well, given that we have such a big military, it's hard for us to be unique because other countries with our military might and our money we kind of tell them nothing too so we're not unique Canada. Canada is one but all South America or large portion of South America, even some places in Europe, Asia,

You know a number of places share our screwed up views on drugs because they meant to to share out screwed up views because they get some money for having these screwed up views like we support various programs in Columbia, about bugs eradication of drugs and all around the world. So these countries share our views but places like Geneva. That's really autonomous and there are some other autonomous nations that we look at the evidence and see what's best for their population, and that was best for the people of the United States. An they don't just accept the propaganda without think about their population. Have you seen? There's a new tv show fear the walking dead. It's like the you spin off. That's in LA, I have no. I mean that in a way you know for the from the United States, so I watch it. I thought immediately of you because is a

character in it. That is a heroin addict. This young son is a heroin addict and uh while. He was in this spoiler alert everybody if you're of the show, and you haven't watched any of the uh. I don't know spoiler alert here comes fast forward. The kids a a junkie and he's in this this drug den and he's shooting up in this chick. Friends with turns into a zombie, starts eating people's faces and shit, and they sound so much of what yeah it's great stuff. Well, they get him to uh, get him to a hospital right he They've got the hospital for days right, he's a little ticket. First, then he seems fine and then his his withdrawals kick in and is cravings kick in like fucking days later. Like days later, he can't take it anymore. I shake in he's. Throwing up over himself and he falls the ground have seizures and throws up on himself, but it's like a day ago. The kid was fine a day go his face. Has all the color in it looks normal and Iram

for what you had said last time you were here that is. Rall is a lot like getting the flu, it's like getting sick and then it goes away and thing else is just sort of in your head. Yeah you, you know, that's a severity can can can very based on the extent that a lot of people been using the drug, obviously, but yeah, it's the flu basically and you're not going to die and all of these sort of dramatic characterizations that we see on tv, it's the sell their product, it's really to sell their product and but problem is, is that people get educated on that bullshit on that sort of stuff, you're, going to say bullshit like the right way to say it yeah. It is bullshit forgot. Where about that? I was on O'Reilly. My best have you are Riley, you would've been interrupted. One hundred and fifty times already, we've already gone to thirty commercials yeah this this kid in the show his mother, actually breaks spoiler alert. Spoiler alert is my

they're actually breaks into the school to get pills for him. She breaks back in the school and adjust to fight zombies and shit, but she she breaks to the school to get pills for her son and she like slowly wean him off with these pills, but the fucking it was normal just a day ago. You know yeah it's too hard for me to what's the the stuff yeah I have it. I mean you know. On the one hand, it's like I'm trying to be a regular citizen, and just you know, appreciate art right people do, but then on other hand, it's just that. I just know the consequences of that rubbish. You know and the consequences that it gives some Iotic politician raison d'etre, so he they feel like this is their reason for being now and then they can go after his drugs. Because a side on this awful tv show yeah cheers tv shows actually really good yeah. Well, it's just. I think the real issue is like many people, the writers and the producers. Probably aren't heroin use yeah

So their idea is based on the popular mythology, the popular culture, the id that we've all been sort of fed by. Trainspotting and all these other films. There's sort of just repeating that. No I'm, as you point out that you can have a good tv show but get the drug issue wrong. Not yet that's a great point. Yeah is real wrong. Obviously a lot of us have this idea and- and I swear before I met you- I mean and I'm a person who's, I'm not averse to drugs. I thought of it all. As I thought heroin like. Oh yeah man, you can get addicted, you do it once you're, addicted name, your fox, it just somehow another becomes a part of you and that's why I've always had a problem when they start talking about marijuana addiction like how many people get addicted to meth

want to, because I don't understand what even the mechanism would be for you to get addicted to that yeah I mean again if we go back to the definition that I talked to the start of yeah, when we think about did social disruption, disruption of family function work and that sort of thing and it's causing you distress. You can clearly see how somebody might be addicted to marijuana. A low percentage of people become addicted to marijuana, but you certain can see that yeah somebody might get distressed by their marijuana, use, fine none, so they could meet criteria for addiction. But when you compare marijuana addiction to alcohol, nicotine, cocaine or any other drug, slower than all the rest of those struck. But certainly it's possible that somebody has some distress. Inhab, psycho social disruptions and function so the disruptions and functioning is what really identify someone as being an addict If someone is a person who's using heroin on a daily,

is but shows no disruption in their life shows no problems. Their their social situation or their job functioning or anything like that. But then they get off of it. Then there an addict because if they get off of it or they try to quit cold turkey, and then they get all fucked up because of that well, then you would have to kind of qualify them or well. Let's just one cry serial withdraw symptoms of only one criterion you have to have, I mean that's only one symptom, so you have to have several symptoms in order to meet criteria for diction, but if you only have withdrawal, that's not adding I mean 'cause, you can think about, say body who's, taking an anti depressant medication or somebody who's taken more frame for pray. All those people can experience which raw, but we won't call them an addict. I mean it's just like withdrawal just the common sort of drug effect at the long term view Subterra, caffeine withdrawal. All of these things are, I mean

people have a hangover often times that that's acute withdrawal, that's just in an acute sort of manifestation. Withdraw center, but we won't call them and alcohol it simply because they went out and partied for a couple of nights and well with drawl is not not the only criteria that we use to determine addiction, but most people would I mean most people would be wrong. Yeah and that's part of the problem here, right 'cause, this is they they are looking only yet withdraw, which are all is not a big deal. Well, it's only. It only becomes a big deal when we're talking about alcohol, withdraw from chronic alcohol use, or we talking about barbiturates, withdraw from chronic use 'cause the person can die, outside of those drugs. I mean Those are the only sort of more commonly used drugs that we worry about, which are all the rest. You'll be fine people.

Constantly throw around the term addiction. Then I guess in an incorrect way in it technically incorrect way, because I know a lot of people that I would say are addicted to coffee, where they need to coffee in order to wake up and function yeah, but like you, said that they they use it wrong. Yeah so mean because the coffee is actually helping them to maybe do their job better and not disrupting their job. The coffee is EVA. Is helping them in their human function with last. You were here. You explain something that really I I never knew either it's that that thing you just discussed that withdraw all is actually or rather a hangover is actually your body with drawing like the competitive Tori mechanisms. Your body uses to The alcohol in your system, that's with the feeling of being hungover, is. Is your body just withdrawing from that?

Certainly that that, certainly, that can be a symptom of withdrawal. The Hangal, absolutely I mean you, you put a foreign substance into your body, and your body tries to just try them in. You would call a humble Stacey's. This is a normal response and then alcohols. Half life is so short that it's in the body and then before you buy. He gets a chance to adjust completely it's gone, but your body is already over compensated, and so what you're seeing? Is this expression in some cases? How did How cold is this like when you when you, if you tried to discuss, like the bill O'Reilly Crowd like there's a lot of people that are not going to swallow. This definition, like their idea of deaf and their definition of addiction, is very different than what you're saying you know like before before we went on our you know? I was talking a little bit this past summer, been all over. I mean this past was, since I saw you last

every I've been all over the globe and one of the things that, when I give these talk so when people say I heard you on the Joe Rogan Shell. You know all over the world from Vancouver to Brazil, to Geneva to the Philippines all over. I know when they say that I heard you on the Joe Rogan show. I know that they are thinking people. I know that these are people who looked more information outside in a normal sort of source of information, and so those are the people who are trying to reach the people who are actually grappling struggling with these ideas and trying to evaluate the ideas for the merits based on their merits and that's it. Whereas when you talk the O'Reilly's and you talk about the politicians and you talk about these people, those are the people who I like talking to lease, not necessarily O'Reilly himself, but some of the people who watch him

and so I'm trying to reach the general public. The people who come, who watch your showed people who are into what you do, the common folk who are out there, which who is struggling in there trying to learn? And I think, if we reached them, the politicians will follow not the opposite of way around, and so my least favorite people. To talk to our politicians. I mean it's as an adult me and you. We would like to talk to people who take you seriously, particularly when you're, respecting them Paul physicians, often times, don't give a shit about you. They only care about their votes and they can use you for those folks. It's insulting to me to talk to people and in that way, and so I I try to avoid the coming here to this place. I know that there will be people out here who listen to you, who struggle with the and but there will evaluate it based on its merits- and that's all

well, you can ask, is that people evaluate your arguments based on the merits and then you have conversation discussions and you go back and forth and you the best evidence when an f fighting understands those rules and those are your listeners. That's not the politician That's not the talk show host those are not those people, and so there, not the people who I'm trying to reach, and it helps to keep me saying, because I can't deal with people who don't use evidence or don't play evidence is part of the rules. Yeah, that's a great quote. That's on your website about uh! I make sure that I don't engage in conversations with people that don't abide by the rules of evidence. That's a great quote and I agree with you about politicians to because essentially politicians just go with the wind of public opinion, girls and too many of 'em, they have a team of people deciding what they're talking about a team of idiots. Often to yes and

unfortunately, those people often times they'll. These politicians they'll get involved in debates or get involved in some sort of a public function with their discussing something or giving a speech, and they can say things that are just absolutely inaccurate and those things when people aren't really discerning or they don't the time, maybe to go over the evidence. These people take that, as fact yeah. I know you know that this is why I continue to be out here, because when people make those kind of statements based on no and it's in there just lies there, just inaccurate the consequences of those lies in the NACRA Caesar, so great and there's so many poor people who paid a price for it, that's why I continue to stay out here, not stay out here, to call those people out on it and try to embarrass those people. I mean I'm a I'm a firm believer in embarrassing politicians when they tell these lies when they make up this information because they are

Winning too many peoples lives as a result, you with their agents of poor information, often times, whether they want to be or not. I think all they want to do is get elected and stay in pie our in and then serve whoever paid for their campaign. That's it that's exactly it! It's a terrible system. If you think about it that way, that's it does. It is a terrible system. That's why I'm glad do your thing and I'm glad that people all around the world are checking you out. Well now, when you're on these travels and you're going around the world, did you go to Portugal at all? Did you talk to anybody from there? I talk to people there like high off issues there, but I haven't been to Portugal yet, and you know. I think you bring up Portugal because they decriminalized all drugs. So too did the Czech Republic to Czech Republic did it before Portugal, but we all know about Portugal and

So that's a good thing. I mean it's just simply means that people can't be arrested for drug possessions and drug possession is considered like a ten day supply of drugs in Portugal and which is a good thing. And then there are other places around the world that people are doing other innovative things like in Sao Paulo. Brazil, the mayor of Meryl, is being drug addicts or drug users paying him a salary, giving them housing, giving them food. Three mills and that sort of thing to make sure they show up for work in the end and then, if they're coming to work, that means they're not getting in the other activities and so he's trying to keep his certain areas of his city. Save doing that, and then we talked about

the Swiss, and so there are a number of people thinking about innovative ways to deal with drugs and to treat people like adults and not children like in our country. We still concerned about moralism, even though there have been some states to have said. As you well know, Erotel Alaska, Oregon Washington Dave said that we're going to glass marijuana for adults and they had a nice aspx California will vote in November six. We need to see if they want if they want to do the same thing so of moralism? We still have some people out here pushing for progressive, rational, adult sort of drug laws, and so I hope we continue to see this. Well, when I look at the current state of politics in America, and I could we call our leaders and the way they do best drugs. What

I'm looking at is it's almost like they're trapped in an ancient. Way of thinking that doesn't work anymore because of the internet because of the internet. We have so much access to information. Now we have, we have we have freedom to actually find the truth. So, like but you're talking about where people have these conceptions and then you come on an you, give the absolute truth fact based evidence and you're forced to like it. I mean like why do I have these assumptions in my head? Why do I have Why do I mean I was forced to confront these when I talked to the first time it was like? Why do Have these ideas in my head that the art- because I really research them- is this something that I have my out there in the field talking to people that are addicts talking to people that treating them? No, absolutely not no he's just trainspotting. This is just you know, popular culture, politics, given politicians, giving speeches, that's all I know of it, and I think there are

Base of understanding is expanding. Now I I agree. Yeah I mean these things to people like you. Well, thank you. I mean because what you're doing, obviously, these alternative media forms right. I mean, when I think about coming to your show my publicist and those people that it wasn't in the book rate which is a mistake, but I mean we know better. Now people are are learning now. So that's really encouraging to me that we have these all turn. The forms of media out here on on the one hand, but we you you made the you made a point: it's it's slow it slipped my mind. Now we can, we can go. I've got the point, will about politics being stuck in this so yeah. So, as we think about the politician, as we think about the politician, I think the last republican debate there were a couple politicians

I think Bush and Christie and they were saying how they would bring the federal government into change. What's going on in color, oh, that Chris Christie, guy yeah yeah those guys- and you know that kind of logic and thinking I think that if he actually got the nomination that wouldn't have- but I don't know if they have the say these kinds of things, but it would be nice if the american people really punished idiots who safe, things like that, because on the one hand, we think about the folks of Colorado taking this vote and the whole issue of states right, and this is what the Republicans say they really like. Well, I don't mean to go out the Republicans or

because I think they're the same as Democrats. Quite frankly, so it's not that's yeah. This is not a knock on them as a party, but when people talk about the States rights hi, that's what this is, it does state have decided in so the public, the american people should really slam idiots who say things like they're going to go out. There stay. What about this issue of states rights I mean and and and- and so I think, Republicans and democrats- you re really go after these people for saying remarks like that. Well, Chris Christie in particular, because a lot of the things that he says are totally inaccurate and then on top of it. What is his concern? I'm assuming his concern is the health consequences of marijuana use, while the health quant once of being a gigantic fat fuck, are way worse than the health consequences of marijuana use when that guy is morbidly obese and he's talking about people who

call plant that makes them happy. That's ridiculous! The idea that you're going to take that right away from responsible adults like me, I don't know how old he is, but I don't think he's much older than you know. I feel you know. I hear you, but I love you outraged about this. I mean, but this is how this is. Americans have to do about. Her would well cocaine a boy, that's a tough sell, but that's why I said it. It's a tough sell, but people think of Coke is due to won't shut. The fuck up of parties want to start businesses with you want to tell you about some shit. But they never really did that's what people think about coke assholes, what no they haven't done: coke with people no damn I need to be around at least people. You know that do co, 'cause everybody I've been around that on Coke is an idiot. Well, You know some of the people who

coca around me are in government, so I guess they can pass. The city is too so. Well, it's the same thing with alcohol right I mean here's, a here's an example. There was a a guy that I know. That's a soldier that I came back from Afghanistan. He's got all sorts of pain issues from the war and he takes oxy cotton, and he's trying to get off of it. He slowly wean himself out, but he'll take like a couple of day every day and he was describing it to me when I was at a bar and Miami the tree actually wow manic dudes on it right now he so normal like and then, while I'm thinking that I'm next to people their drunk off their ass at this fucking bar at the improv people are hammered to sloshed and there probably on way more damage to their body right there, and I'm like wow, is poor flux on pills. You know, I mean it's it's in this thing how we have these

categorizations that, like the pill, the Oxycontin pill, like all this guys he's got to be picked up. Meanwhile, to my left, there's a bar filled with people just throwing back this liquid poison and torturing their liver in their brain yeah see this is the new book mean when it comes now, I'm going to have to come here, but this is precisely what I'm trying to do with him, trying to show people how to use drugs to enhance human functioning experience and so forth. Now that means that, as we get older, we may have to change out drug use from some like alcohol. Alcohol might be a little too toxic on some of our libbers as we get older are toxic in other ways. For us as we get older and some uh drugs like Oxycontin or something else might be more beneficial for you to achieve that goal that you're trying to achieve, and that's what the new book is trying to trying to look at it to help people change their drug use according to their age, their maturity

all of these things and how to keep them safe and also to help them to accomplish that goal that they seek to enhance human experiences. When we go to parties, we take drugs. So we take alcohol in order to as a social lubricant. You know, but maybe that social lubricant isn't working for me as much these days. I'll call disrupts my sleep. You know where is an opiate is perfect. You know I can chill. I can relax and I can get some great sleep and I can be here: do your show and be bright and bushy tailed and I'm ready to go as opposed to having that drink the night before, but have an oxy cotton or something else? That's just saying you know, I think also we're dealing with a reaction like when you, talking about people in the 1970s that we're doing the higher percentage of them were smoking marijuana and it could have been a reaction to the Knicks administration. I think

in a situation like that, you get that preachers, daughter, sort of affect the suppression where people just want to react to that suppression. People don't like being told what to do an in the case of things like cocaine. There's that naughty factor, there's the fact that it's forbidden this is fat after that. What you're doing is something that's illegal and that may is it more exciting. I think that's one of the things that was highlighted by the decriminalization in Portugal and the subsequent effects when any in Colorado. When you look at the they've shown in Colorado is the lowest instances of drunk driving and I think something like fifteen years, lower senses of violent crime that they've had in a long time and no deaths. You know that one guy jumped off of the building when he was high on pot edibles, listen people make shitty choices, all that uh

weather on pot edibles or they drink too much, doctor pepper or they have too many fucking twinkie, I mean wasn't their guy in San Francisco that killed somebody that used Twinkie as a defense but Winky yeah. It was a famous defense because sugar is a drug. I think that responsible adults being able to make choices based on evidence and based on reality. In fact, that should be the foundation of our society. How we treat almost everything tell menu you just laid it out with marijuana. I absolutely agree with you, but I just I want to push you to think about her one in the same way: cocaine in the same way, because what you just said, of marijuana right, but it also applies to these other psychoactive drugs yeah. We just need to make sure people know how to do these things safely. I I'm I'm I'm

opening my mind to this. I just don't have any experience in any of those. I was always scared of coke, because when I grew up I have a friend and his cousin got. He became a mess, he was selling it and all this dude dude was do Coke and hang out in his house and watch TV and sell Coke and he lost a ton of weight and he looked like shit and it's just. He made some bad choices, but he could have made those bad choices doing a lot of different things. Just like you talked about the guy who possibly Drum jumped out of the building at the edibles and have some other issue. You're. Absolutely right. There are a lot of issues I mean you. Can I'm sure you can look at my talks. You can look at other people, you can see you be like ok. Can you tell what drug I'm on? Can you tell what drug this person is on king? Of course you can't right, because people are most of us are adult and responsible

We know what we're doing. What's a good drug to take right before you do the O'Reilly show? Oh, no actually, with the older blockers, not a beta blocker might be helpful, but you might want to just take a low dose of amphetamine. So you can be really alert and attentive and ready to go really attack. Yeah you'd be ready to go. That's that style. You know I had a Peter shift. You know he is he's a financial genius and very which virtual character very, very successful but has he's like controversial ideas about economics. But I had him on the podcast and I don't know how many podcast he's done, but he star off the show like 'cause, that's how they do it. You know when you go on those talk, shows you gotta be able to fucking fire, but this shows three hours of just chilling out and talking so

an hour and a half then he starts to slow down like you want to drink. So I can't have a drink. So we got him a Jack Daniels on the rocks we sit and then and then he got casual about an hour and a half in and it became an actual conversation like. I know virtually nothing about finances So I wasn't challenging him. I just asking questions and I wanted to find out. You know I want to get him to illuminate certain perspectives, but he was ready for some to jump in. He was ready to beat that split screen thing when you have one person on one side, one of the other and they have opposing viewpoints, and they just talking over each other on the stand. I sympathize with the cake is that you know how it is and then before you know it it's over, and indeed you don't really get the many of us think that our it's not our opportunity to educate american public yeah. It's not it's really an opportunity for the host to show how smart they are designed yeah. It's all just also a lot of just preaching

the choir nonsense and they they want the conflict of two people with opposing viewpoints yelling. And each other and calling each other morons and pseudo symmetry is what they want to pretend that each issue has in sir amount of evidence over here in a certain amount of evidence over here and uh in this sort of real story somewhere in the middle. No most issues don't happen like that, but that's how non thinking. People can see the world, but the world doesn't work like that. No, it doesn't what was that documentary Jamie, do remember the name of the documentary that I was talking about with these people that were hired, go on and talk about Jesus Christ? I just watched it really recently. What is it mirage? Men wasn't Mirage menu, yeah they were hired to go on these shows and talk about whether it was the initially. It was whether or not cigarettes and nicotine were bad for your health and addictive, and then it

same about global warming the same people and they would go on all these different talk shows and just about this stuff. Very loudly and with confidence and is literally their job. They were being hired to do this so that go on the, talk shows, and they would just yap, they would just Just talk real loud and real constantly and talk over people and their function or their their career was to How to change opinion with these short little bursts, yeah yeah, that's what they do, and I don't do that very well. Yeah? Well, that's why I had to contact you after I saw you on O'Reilly. I was like you look so frustrated because that shows is so fucking retarded you not try not to show frustration. I really do so. If I did that's not that's not good well

say knowing you you what looks mildly per term on the outside. If I didn't know you had like a like, I handle that really well. Is this talked over him? They give you like. I mean I'm, I'm not even exaggerating you might have to talk for you. Might it got out twenty seconds worth of talking before they were talking over you yeah. You know. The thing is just so perplexing to me that you can be so irresponsible and have this stuff be on the airway and not get in trouble for it and then what they're doing on many of these shows they're doing more harm to the american education than more than most people and yet turn on in jail. In back there being rewarded handsomely for this sort of thing and then we're putting people in jail. For these other minor, infraction it's distorted

Then it's something really sick about this system. It is- and it seems like it's trapped in momentum- that these these shows have always existed the way they have. We know what these seven minute segments that go to add break one host loud boisterous guy talks over everybody. He shows up. Around for so long like that, their comfortable model for us yeah it for some people, they're not comfortable for me b as I tell you: I've been really trying to re thinking like when. Where can I live in this? world. But you know the US. Is there making a very hard for me to want to stay here, but you I have children that I have to raise here, but at the debt come out really where you going to go, Canada, Canada is good. Fuck I mean no disrespect to Canada. I mean I love it up there. Canada is really US light and really yeah. I mean thing, Hoover is a little different, but the rest of Canada. Is that trying to be like the US

s musically when it comes to drugs? In all of these issues, yeah giving covers the most open mind when it comes to drug yeah, I mean Vancouver. I really dig the folks of and cool, don't they have some sort of a heroin program in Vancouver as well. They do it's the d l this is for research purposes, but they they. They certainly have a program where they're giving Caroline and it's of a research project at the University of british friend of British Columbia. I was there on Friday night. I did a theater there and you could drive by the theater and get a contact high with your window. Open like litter just driving my it's so marijuana so open. You know that contact hot thing is not counted. It's not real right. It's not real! I've hotbox people in this very room. How dare you I'm going to change your research? Well, we fuck some people up in these. We can do it right where you just sit and we have wrecked some people. Let's do it today, is of real. I don't think it's a real.

I don't think it's really well. We could do an experiment there's. Another reason why I think it's real is this in Toronto and they have I don't want to give monks, I don't think it's legal, but they do comedy show there and they have Have the front is like a bong shop and then the back. They have a comedy club and have no ventilation whatsoever. You walk. The background you are in a fucking cloud of marijuana smoke the candles and no longer burning on oxygen. They're burning on marijuana smoke, there's no oxygen in the room, you're, breathing not only and you will get high as fuck 'cause. I have a friend who doesn't even smoke pot. I took him to the show he's like straight edge. He was high, as fuck He was like dude, I don't even know if I could walk and I was like exactly This is a reality like you just need to be an extreme situations, I'll. Take you to Torano right I'll, show you, that let's everyone will fuck you up. I guarantee of what we need to do. Take someone who's told

really clean like someone who doesn't do any marijuana whatsoever, and We have seen that audience and watch an hour and a half comedy show and then get up. That's cool do it and then we could also test their yard, and we can do all that stuff yeah. Let's do it well, don't take test positive, though, if you're at a party I mean you, can't you can't you test positive, some of these more stringent drug tests. You know, I know people say that you know, but I I haven't seen that, but but I don't know for sure I certainly haven't seen it, but maybe maybe it's possib Do you know the issue? That's going on right now with the UFC and this guy named Nick Diaz. Now this is a huge story in the world of sports, because Nick Diaz, It was one of the most popular fighters in the UFC and his very outspoken, marijuana enthusiasts he's. Also. Extremely healthy. He I think he eat it's mostly vegan, except I believe he eat some fish. He uh

seems triathlons on a regular basis. He swam back from Alcatraz, twice he's known for and one of the most fit guys in the sport, but it does marijuana and he smokes it all. The time UFC as Institute in Nevada State. Athletic commission has instituted a new drug policy in regards to marijuana with we've lowered the threshold considerably like much much lower, so you literally would have to be high like the day of the fight in order to test positive, so he is administered tests from two day. Organization, one of them the World Anti doping agency water and what is a blood test which is much more accurate than what Nevada State Athletic Commission uses. Nevada State Athletic Commission uses a urine test. The blood test both, but before and after the fight find him to be. Under the threshold so he passes, but no via how to using the your analysis test say that he fails

They find him one hundred and sixty five thousand dollars, and then they ban him from the sport for five years yeah. There's a huge outrage. Well, it should be. I mean really marijuana shouldn't even be on any of the even water. I know what a increase their thresholds that's required to trigger the pill, only, which is a good thing. But it shouldn't even be on what is list, because when we think about drugs and performing enhancing drugs, clearly people are not using marijuana to enhance performance, that's not where they're using it for recreational purposes, and maybe that was the day before or several days before, but it certainly has nothing to do with their competition, and so it should be off of those lists, and I mean this is what people should protest? Are you about demonstrate about the inner failed, the NBA all of these things? They should remove marijuana from that. They should also remove cocaine

came. It would not be used to enhance, perform the inside the in competition? You don't think it would enhance performance as a stimulant, I mean it's such a short lived thing, I'm fed it means can do a better job of that, but cocaine would be be barely a really would be. I mean, but if we start talking about drugs in sports and then we're really being honest, we have to think about. Why are drugs banned from sports? In the first place, and so, if we start doing that and then we can systematically go through the illogical sort of reasoning behind these fan. People say well a we care about the health of the athletes and drugs, okay, regulate drug use and in sports and make sure that They have a physician and so forth, but if you really cared about the health of athletes in sports, you ban boxing you

Then all of these sorts of things you been football, you may only so that's like that's bullshit! That's not why you that's not why we care about drugs in sport, not because of the health of the athletes it's just not true. Well, we say that athletes are role models. Why should athletes have an additional responsibility more so than anybody else? That's a very good point. You know! So that's crap and you just go down the list and talk about why we ban these things and it just doesn't fit. We banned them because a more all isms and war on drugs, and that's just inappropriate. We are now starting to see that the rationale on which to Warren drugs is built is problematic. At best. What do you think of a situation like say the Lance Armstrong situation, where he's involved in a sport where he tests positive for some stuff? But I don't even think he did TEST Paz

That's right! I think they weaseled their way around the test, so well that he, Never really tested positive, but he ultimately had to admit to using performance enhancing drugs. They stripped him Tour de France titles, then, on top of that, because he was sponsored by the Post office, he gets hit with defrauding the government when you defrag. Government they're allowed to sue you for three times the amount that they gave you. So if they gave him, thirty million dollars they're suing him for ninety million dollars or something crazy like that, an on top of that once you strip him. If you're going to give that title to the next person who didn't test, positive for that. You gotta go down to like 18th place, which is hilarious. So, like my friend bill, Burr hilarious comedian had a great bit that he did this on the Conan O'Brien Show he was like. So basically,

our steroid it up. Guy beat your steroid about guide me they're, all steroid it up every bit. The whole sport is predicated not mean that that's what that that this, this port and I've even heard it argued by doctors that doing the tour to France without the drugs is arguably more dangerous for the athletes body, then doing it with the drugs. Well, France has always had drugs in it, I mean everyone knows this, and so this notion that is going to be clean or should be clean. It's a pipe dream, it's really ridiculous. I think that you know the whole Lance Armstrong issue not about him specifically, but we should allow drugs in sports. That's what that's what we should do. We should just regulate it, be on Justin upfront about it. Is that possible. Do you think that's possible in this in this environment that we're in right? Now? Of course,

possible. It was possible right before we got in this environment. Drugs drugs worry in sports. I mean think about the Olympics for most of the Olympics, people were using formance enhancing drugs? That's how we got more selective, anabolic steroids because of the Olympics in EAST Germans and that whole sort of thing, but actually they were here in America, but it was competition with the old Soviet Union. So I think that yeah, it's possible it's possible. If we're just stop being hypocrites about it and say people say well, give some people an unfair advantage. Yeah, that's a big now, that's a joke, that's really a joke. I mean particular particularly, I think, about every four here's when the Olympics come around and Americans get proud about all the medals we win when we fucking metal from a country like Switzerland, that has seven million people. New York City has more people in it, then Switzerland, the entire country, of course,

so we're going to have more medals than Switzerland or some other small country. Is that an unfair advantage? Not yes, but hell? Yes, it is. But do we talk about that there are some people who have resources and other people don't have resources. We, and I always have does unfair. So life is unfair. Well, the most unfair advantage in the Olympics, in my opinion, is when they were NBA players play basketball like Jesus fuck Christ I mean. I know we want to win, but holy shit. You mean you, let Michael Jordan or Lebron James or someone along those lines play in the Olympics against some dude from Czechoslovakia. That's kind of fucked up. Well, you know their argument was that the other countries were allowing their NBA players that play fine me, but from the I said when you have these huge countries like the US and a competing with these other smaller countries who have Lynn resources come on. Are you

you mean, and we talk about like fair advantage and unfair. That there's also there's people that have natural advantages like Lebron James again, like that guy You look at him. That is a genetic freak of nature, but you are very few people that are ever going to have a body like his right. I know, but turn the NBA right, but I'm saying even amongst the NBA. He sort of stands he's an outlier, obviously he's. Incredibly, the plan. Obviously talented, obviously, is massive work. Ethic, no question about it. Obviously he has basketball intelligence that surpasses nine Nine point: nine, nine, nine percent of the people in the game. There's all these other things on top, but then on top of it he has this fucking race, car body. You know I mean that, like like I, you know you take a you know: someone who's less physically talented they'll. Never going to if they both do the same amount of work. They both try. As hard you now

going to be that guy. But you know there are people who had bodies like his and they're. Not him. I mean you you've, seen this throughout sports web sure have these for nominal bodies, they're not him. So it's not only their sort of physical make up its peoples drive their work. Ethics, these things, I don't think are emphasized enough. I mean you think about it. We talked about Lebron, James and not Jack Jack Brown, because we don't know him, but Jack Brown has a hell of a body, but we don't know him because he doesn't have the eh like the work that he doesn't have the drive. He doesn't have all of these things, but you and I can go and look at the NFL roster some roster you can see some guys who are just built and they just look great. And then we don't know who the hell they are right, but we're talking him because this is a selection bias beak as we see him and he's doing it but uh. I I don't this the whole genetic thing I

we need to see some evidence before I start to talk about genetics. I I don't. I don't know to what extent that contribute, but what I do know is that work, ethics and dry. And people putting in the work. I know that pays off. I absolutely know that it certainly does and it you do. You need all those things you can't just have genetics genetics, just what is a expression. The hard work beats talent when talent refuses to work hard. Is that it and that That is absolutely fat. When you got a guy like Lebron James who has talent and hard work, then you get a superstar and you get that in all sports, but the argument being that he does have this advantage physically, that you know the average person with an average body This does not have, but the average person in the NBA does they have this body. They had they look, they can look like Lebron. Could they now could a lot of 'em, oh yeah,

I mean there are some guys who are pretty big, big and fast, and those sorts of things, but here's a good example in the UFC. Mixed martial arts. They used to allow testosterone, replacement therapy It was kind of abused and the way it was used is the way the male endocrine system works. As it's been explained to me. Obviously, I'm not a doctor, when you take test. Pastor own, your body stops producing it, so what these people would do is they would take it and then they would get off of it and there, body would have very low testosterone. Then they would get a blood test and the doctor would say: hey you have low, testosterone, you need to pastor replacement therapy, so we had guys that are in their 20s that we're getting testosterone replacement therapy which is kind of crazy. They would take it and then they would take large amounts of it.

And recover much better than other people? Would they would be able to work harder and try harder? And we had some in this? Is this? Is one guy named Vittore Belfort? Who is the poster boy for testosterone replacement therapy, because his career was kind of in a law he got on testosterone therapy? Is a guy who's been fighting in the UFC since nineteen twenty seven he's in his late 30s and then all the sudden in his late 30s? He is fucking smashing people and he looks like a God in his body's. Just chiseled he's got super confidence? He's super aggressive, attacking any just highlight reel knockout after highlight reel knockout in his late 30s. Then they take away testosterone replacement therapy than odyssey. Athletic commission says you know, This is just uh. We don't believe in this anymore. We think this is being abused, everyone's going to have to get off of it and one of the reasons why they did. It is because they tested him out of combat

and just randomly they grabbed him and he was off the charts like now, non human levels, so they make him get off of it. He then fights for the title after he gets off of it and he looks like a shell of himself, his body. It's like soft he's like skin is loose like he. He just doesn't doesn't have endurance like he just got destroyed in the first round by the champion. Then everybody looks at Ingles will see. You know this is what happens when you take a guy like that, and you get him off the stuff but there's a certain amount of people that look at a guy like that and go man. Wouldn't you like to see him fight on it? I would like to see what he could do. If you catch him on it ' 'cause, he seemed like a monster yeah, I mean I know I would I'd like to see. You know, because if we're going to draw the conclusion that the steroids was the reason that he was fighting like that,

so now that we did the a portion or the ab portion so now we need to go back to a put him back on the steroids and then and then I'll feel more comp that yeah. It was a steroid. But the question is, though, is that an unfair advantage for him versus the person he's competing against? Who is clean and natural? His opponent Chris Weidman, who is the champion is notoriously clean. He's just hard work looks I mean you know, doesn't look like it does any steroids at all. It just works already, smarty stuff, so yeah. So we should give the chat in an option to use steroids. If he wants the Usm, he can do it if he doesn't, he doesn't have to, but the other guy. We should also give him that uh and and and let's see what happens, the problem with that in mixed martial arts, as opposed to any other sport, is that giving someone test, pastor, Onora steroid, is

to allow them to administer damage to their opponent that they might not be able to do without so their point is going to suffer because of it. It's a different thing, like the ability to deliver a basketball into net is one thing, but the ability to kick somebody in head is a completely different thing and the idea being that, if you give someone EPO, for instance, which expel is your endurance threshold. You will be able to throw more strikes, you'll, be able to attack more aggressively without worrying, about conserving your gas tank, and that you could do how much someone in a way that you would not have damaged them. Naturally, I don't see that as a problem, I remember when MIKE Tyson was knocking people out when people walk in the room, up in the ring with him. There was always that potential that you might get damaged in ways might that's right, and so I I don't see this as a problem. We should let it in into sports- and you know this part of the the risk of what you do. That's it's as simple as that for me,

and then we should also monitor the athletes and make sure that they are. They do have healthy levels and levels that are not going to cause toxicity to them. But I don't see that problem. You know it's interesting. Conversely, guys have gotten off of it. They can't take punish like there's one specific guy and this guy, if anybody has an argument for taking it, it's this guy. His name is Bigfoot Silva. He actually is a giant. He has gigantism, so he tumor on his pituitary gland and he was taking external. What is it exogenous? Cece exagon exogenous? testosterone and if anybody has an excuse for taking it, is this guy. Well, when he was on it god this guy get angle, fucking punch take I mean he had this war with this guy Mark Hunt Epic, five round fight,

and then when he got off of it he gets hit and he just goes down like it's. It's really shocking the difference in his ability to take punishment while on it and then we'll offer see you know I have to tell you I'm a bit outside of my expertise. So I don't really know these guys, but you certainly have peaked interest and I want to know more about it because you know just to be logically consistent. I think that these things should be allowed in sports and, if I'm going have that position. I like to know more about like the things that you're saying like when he was on it. He could take a punch then when he got off he couldn't take a put. I don't How many years between that and age what role age plays in all of these sorts of things, but I like to know more, I'm just I'm just at a disadvantage because I just don't know

grand. I don't know enough of the details about it, but I would just challenge people to think about hey what if we allow drugs in sports, one of the things that it does do that it helps it helps recovery an apparently it mitigates the effects of damage it can mitigate effects of damage that you take not just in in training but also in competition, and in that sense. It would benefit people, but I do see the argument and Rhonda row he's made it pretty eloquently that if someone is taking a steroid, if their cheating quote unquote, it's going to allow them to administer damage that they would I have been allowed to do or would not be able to do with just hard work. Well, I know that's a that's a conjecture, but I don't know if that's true I don't know I have no idea. I understand, I understand it's

its most extreme version of sports writing so it's the most extreme consequences for this debate. Sure, and I think that it's a perfect place to start, because it is that support that you going to get in the ring. You gotta be a man. I mean better, be taller woman, you know, woman, you better be yeah, you have you can't be. You can't be a wimp getting at and that ringing. So I think that it's a great place to think about this, and but the notion that somebody will be able to administer more punishment because they're on STAR wars- I don't know if I accept that, don't know if I exit just suit, God need some evidence to two before I come to that conclusion. I understand your position. I'm pretty sure. That's a correct position, though, that you would be able to administer more. I think, if you take very town, the athletes that already have all those attributes, discipline hard work and then you

Add steroids you're, going to get a more efficient body, even get a body that functions more yeah, that's it. Right, but we're talking about delivering blows yeah. You think that people will be able to deliver blows in ways that yeah I do, and on top of that, I think also with with fighting a big one. Is confidence and there's something about those guys or choose to the tests yeah they their confidence, Fox yeah, because they're barely human, I mean when you hit these super high hyper, human levels of testosterone. You get these incredibly aggressive, confident men that can do things that they might. Subsequently, when they get off that stuff boy, their confidence, if roads radically right there, Instagram pages start looking like suicidal strippers, so I like motivational, quotes and shit and like they get real, weird jealousy ultimate experiment that we have to tell people there on

These things, and, let's see if their competence are, is increased right and we can see whether or not it's a placebo effect is still confident I mean, but I know that they have real physical effects, I'm not denying that at all, but I'm the competence piece would be interesting to see whether or not Somebody will still have this competence if we give him placebo and telling him. This is what, but, isn't it fascinating? Also that we're still talking about drugs like that term, drugs is just such a way loaded term the fact that that that term could be used for a steroid as well as for aspirin or coffee. It's really kind of unfortunate that we have this one blanket term that applies to psychedelic and as well. It applies to testosterone and it applies to heroin. I mean there's two, the things I actually like that. Do you do

why don't you like it? I mean, because we think about one of the things that bothers me about the psychedelic kind of movement, and God bless them. People who enjoy this thing, but you know people separate their drug use like the psychedelic users, like I'm, using this to go on a higher plane or for some other reason, as opposed person on the corner who's getting high. It's like you can rationalize your drug use. However, you want, but you you, using drugs and it's all the same thing you know. So it's like it's a beautiful thing, we're all to in this I'm not betting, you with my drug use and you're, not better than me what your drug all I said, I loved that died, so they lead ISM of the psychedelic that really annoys exactly it or other people. I mean this notion even the marijuana smokers when they talk about marijuana and not talk about crack and not talk about heroin. What the fuck is that

I mean come on you're doing a drug just like I'm doing this drug, and so it's a PA mercy. It's the same elitism that is pervasive throughout our society. I think the id is that when they're doing marijuana or something like that, they are being like responsible that getting something that makes two more socially aware and casual, whereas when you doing some- speed or some math or something like that. You know you're, stealing, cars and fucking drive it into pedestrians. That's how people look at it get laughing hard. Man As you know, you know. I I hear these things right like I have done all of these things, and it's not like, I am stealing cars or doing any of these other wacky when you get on the math. No, I mean what you know. Look at, I mean my life row.

Bobs about around my work- and you know my idea of a good time is being able to write a new paper to write a book, but that but that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate drugs and drug use, and so I think this is the majority of drug users in world of academia, Desear stance, cause controversy because you know you're, obviously, a very educated guy very well respected. Yet you say this so openly that you and joy drugs like whereas a lot of people, would shy away from that, even if they do research on the drugs themselves. I've had people that you know even guys that work trying to legalize drugs that are very is tent to admit there like Rick Doblin. I had him on the podcast. He didn't want to admit that he had taken Provigil before the show which is

he did, but he was hesitant to it. You know I'm not slamming him in August. I love me yeah me too. I was a great got right up. I found it fascinating that this there was this like hesitancy, to admit that he took something that is so mild, like pro vigil, gives you live bit of energy doesn't alter your heart rate It certainly doesn't alter critical thinking processes, but he was hesitant and he's the head of maps see not to talk about Rick situation specifically, but just in general, when people are reluctant to say these things, that's part of the prod because we need to help people get out of the closet. There are so many people who go to jail, who get it. Trouble who lose their job for doing a behavior that well respected. People in our society engage in Ieb all over the world and I've been hanging out with some of the more some of the movers.

Shakers in a variety of society. Ah, I have seen them get high and they are responsible people and now Are people who I want my children to be like in many cases some of these folks? Now many of those people are closeted, but them being in the closet, allows Disip Ocracy to go on. Allows us to go at the poor people for doing a behavior engaging in behavior, in which many of us engage. It sounds very wrong with that and that's very for me very hypocritical, an eye like to look in the mirror, as a man as an adult and to say that

I live my life as honestly as I can in that regard, and so what kind of man would I be? If I wasn't honest about this, it I mean I'm. The person who has given thousands of doses of these drugs to people and carefully studied their affect written books on this stuff. If I can't say this, why are you here? Why am I here right? I mean what is, I would be embarrassed as a person and I would deserve to be embarrassed as a person a because I didn't take the opportunity to help my fellow citizens who are catching hell for doing the same. Same thing that I and others do. That would be wrong, well kudos to you for taking that stance, but I think that it's, a brave stance isn't and in the world of academia like. How is that? How is that accepted? I I don't

No, I haven't thought about it. All I know is that I have to do my job, so I do my job and you know I try to my job is well or better than my colleagues. That's all I can do in those spaces, but you know I, those are those are not space. Is that which I live? I mean I work there, but I'm trying to, citizen of the world and so that's just a narrow aspect of my life does very admiral I'm glad you're alive and document glad this people like you out there. So important. I think I really do. I think things were a guy like you who so educating the subject can expand people's minds and say say things things such an honest way. I think it's it's it's very critical because, because We are so hesitant to admit these things. You know I mean I run into situations with parents all the time. You know go to school with their kids go to school, and then the Google me and find out you are all the fucking drug,

talk. Is the one that the freaks them out the most? Not the fact that I'm involved in cage fighting like that seem fine like they, they wanna get tickets. You know what to do. The drug stuff is with the weird part, especially the psychedelics ones. So I could look for the ones that seem to freak them out the models more so even in the pot like DMT, like ever parents ask me about DMT. You know this cure cross. Armed, so what is this DMT stuff? I have children too so you know I can get similar sorts of things, I'm sure yeah, you acme or an odd looking fellow, crazy, dreadlocks, you long fingernails and like this mother fucker this guys a doctor yeah, you just hit it on the head, but you know that is the sort of thing that drives me right. That's why, when people are sleeping, I'm working,

I mean I'm working around the clock. You know, but I pretend that I'm not you know send like I'm just chilling, and you know one of the most sort of uptight people you want to meet when it comes to work. You know I am a yeah, I'm a I'm. A difficult person to work for 'cause you're, a workaholic, absolutely absolutely at your work is very, very important to you. Obviously yeah. Absolutely you know it's like: if you're going to be in the game, you gotta be in the game to win it yeah. Well, it's also, you're doing is so critical at this juncture, because I think we're transitionary stage in our culture. I think our culture is ' but it's mind, and I think, as we said before, because the internet, because we we We have conversations like this, where no one can step in and stop us, and it's already too late everything you said it's all streamed. People have recorded it being a right, people are listening to it right now, there's no way around that people are getting they are playing in their car, no one could stop it and once

information gets out. Then they'll, Google, it uh a vast majority of the people that are curious about this will start. Looking into some of the things that you said and go wow, that's walking true wow. This is z and then they'll talk to people at work. They will talk to people at the gym, they'll talk to people that their friends with and then will expand further and further and further. So I think, what you're doing is critical. It's critical at this juncture, so that the fact that you approach it like it's so critical is why you know you're so important. Well, thank you ma'am, because you know that's how I try and see it. You know it's like I think about like. I don't want to let people down, but me not working as hard as I could, particularly when it's so important as you point out for so many people. You know because young people, older people, people always gonna, get high them, always gonna getcha. So what are the things we can do? Is we can help them? Do it more safely and more effectively we can do. We can actually do that as opposed.

This is saying: don't do that come on if you are thinking person, you want to know why it's more important that kids and people challenge me being challenged everyone and then, when they challenge us they might actually go and engage in this behavior. Ok, I have my own kids, so that means my kids hear me talking about this, so my kids might think what drugs aren't that bad 'cause. I heard it with my dad said so I have to do you understand that there is a potential that my kids will use drugs to yeah. I know that but the thing that I try to do is make sure they're safe and they know what they're doing and also that they understand their role, about educating their friends and keeping a friend say and even educating their teachers. Like I get my kids so the dad I had the drug talk in class, and this is what this person said. Does teachers that are just part said that but the

Geordie of people who use marijuana, go on to use other drugs and become addicted to marijuana some other drug. So my kid, my young kid, has the raises hand and be like mister x. It's exactly the opposite of what you just said, and then the teacher says you know like what evidence do you have for this sort of thing? Of course, my kids they do use like look at the last three presidents of the United States. You know, and so he goes on and he educates the teachers and that sort of way. But you know that's that's our thing for a kid to do an, but he feels compelled to do it because he understands that his that's part of his responsibility to there was a great the lecture by Terence Mckenna wants where he was talking about his kid being in class and Terence Mckenna is sore. The legendary feature in the figure in the psychedelic community and

child was in class, and the teacher was telling his child that LSD causes brain damage and he said you: no, it doesn't cause brain damage than teachers. Several who told you that he said Albert Hoffman, when you had a conversation with Albert Hoffman and you're, dealing with some fucking high school teacher and pulled on Colorado will it be interesting. If the the teacher knew who Albert Hofmann, what does he probably did yeah, I hope so I would hope so yeah. But it's the this. The narrative that the brain damage narrative is a big one and boy there's a a lot of things that could potentially cause your brain did not function at its best, and some abuse of drugs is certainly on that list, but there's a lot. The things that we do on a daily basis that are not good for you, like black poor diet, like a lack of exercise like

being stuck in polluted cities like breathing in brake dust and fucking exhaust fumes all day all these things are terrible for yeah, but we really have to challenge the brain damage. Narative I mean There are things that we do. Is that we. We don't challenge it I mean, then we wonder thing. So when we think about the brain damage. Narrative is as gay more Energie in recent years in part, because we have this technology of neural imaging, a brain imaging, but what in fact This happened with brain imaging is that brain imaging has become a projection test. Basically, you know what I mean when I say a projection test. Oh no, I don't you know inkblot test so or war shop. Sort of psychological tests where you throw up some image, then you ask the person: what are they see and you know you get this sort of they'll tell you their interpretation and psychologist has his or her subject

the interpretation of what that means? That's what brain imaging in drugs in sort of a drug feel has become it's become a projection test. So that means that the sort of what the examiner seeds is. What does tests or the information become. So it's a subjective sort of view, a subjective view of what the examiner thinks, and so you can take brain image. Ng, for example, you can take the data and give it to two different labs. Just give the data to two different labs, and you don't tell them who the participants are. I would bet you any amount of money that the two labs would not come up with the same into Ritesh, you know so people think of this is like being hard science it's there, and this is what we

we see, and we know it. It's not that way. It's really there's a lot of subject subjectivity that goes into these sorts of tests. And so one of the things we have to do- is just push back and ask people when they talk about these drugs causing brain damage, where what's the evidence that The questions that people have to ask please show me the evidence of the brain damage that you're talking about, because it's true amphetamines can cause brain damage. Nicotine is a lot more of the Danes, just in amphetamine heroin and all the rest of these things in terms of potency and that sort of thing, but we take nicotine and doses that we avoid any sort of damage that door. Said the damage associated with we take all of these drugs and doses that causes euphoria is way below the doses that causes toxicity. So when

start talking about brain damage. Humans don't usually take drugs in the doses that would cause brain damage because if they did, the drug affects become unpleasant and humans won't take it because it's so unpleasant. So the notion that these things cause brain damage need to really ask people to show you to evidence. I have not seen evidence in humans that all of these recognize any of these recreational drugs is caused some brain damage so when they have those scans and they show the brain and they show the effects like when someone's on x amount milligram of this or of that what I always wondered that, like what are you seeing you see like highlighted portions of the brain like what is it just activity in that area? So if we talked him, most studies have been done when people are not on drugs, I mean we talk about when people on drugs would do that, and so what you do you typically do you have like a group of

the FED I mean uses in one group. Then then you have people who never use methamphetamine. Other group. Thank you image their brain. You might do what this thing. We call the pet image that was, that was popular. What you inject a radio active compound in somebody's body, and this compound selectively binds to laissez dopamine cells in the brain and when it binds to the dope, he sells its is radioactive, it lights up and it didn't, and so you can see how many dopamine cells are in the person's brain or region, or you can get an idea of the dopamine cells and how many there, one of the things that has done a sort of popular way that it's done is that they say to methamphetamine: users have less dopamine receptors, then Banon methamphetamine used and so that

is interpreted as saying methamphetamine cause the methamphetamine users to lose. Dopamine cells kill sales. Basically, now we don't know what we're? What was in the brains of the of the methamphetamine users before they use methamphetamine? Do we only know from this? One scan, that's one problem. Another problem is, is that we don't know what the normal range of dopamine receptors or will or are in a in a person's brain. So if you look at like your brain versus, my brain will see differences. What is that me? Or if you look- that the brains of people who never use drugs or anything you'll see differences. What it does it mean. So we have a wide range just as humans. We have a wide range of dopamine cells in each person's brains versus somebody else so you can't say that methamphetamine cause these people to lose dopamine sell because we don't know

so if they lost open, mean cells in the first place and- and the thing is that you have this tremendous overlap of dopamine cells in this case in the method, many users compared to the control. So that means that some people in the methamphetamine group has more dopamine cells than people in the control and vice versa. So what does it all mean? It doesn't mean what it typically means is we don't know, but when we know it doesn't typically mean is that it caused some brain damage, because when you look at these peoples functioning cognitive functioning other functioning, they look just like anybody else who didn't use. Methamphetamine, that's fascinating! So that's really interesting. So the only way to tell would be to take someone who is healthy and doesn't have a history of drug use and monitor them, get them hooked on methamphetamine

and then see what's happening to their dopamine receptors. Then you certainly that that could be a way of doing that. But they'll be really expensive and I don't know if it's just an ethical yeah. I mean we had these natural experiments already. So we think about. Amphetamine use became big in the 30s and we have this sort of history in the military we still use and feta means pilots use. Pilots are always on the stuff right. Why missions right to make sure the sharp right? So you have this history, so you just look in the general population, and you say alright, what is a dopamine related illness? You look at a dopamine related illness. One of 'em is Parkinson's disease. You lose dopamine cells, you get partisans disease, do you have higher rates of Parkinson's disease in methamphetamine users? And you know the bottom line. Is that you don't generally see this? You don't see higher rates of met them fed of of of Parkinson's disease in methamphetamine use. I mean that's

is one thing, but you can just look throughout the society and you can see very is illnesses. The politically neurological is illnesses and see. Do you have a greater rates of this illness in people who reported this type of drug use? And you don't really see that, and so I, when I hear people will talk about the brain damage thing in particular when they show brain imaging, that's not evidence of brain damage You know, when you have animal studies, you can give animals and feta means for every day for their life, and then you kill him at at so point and then you look at a dopamine damage, for example, use certainly can see damage. When you give in feta me at doses, three thousand and forty times what humans take yeah, you can see some toxicity, it's clear, but now when you give the doses data that a comparable to what you take over that same period of time, you don't see this really. Yes,

so the stimulants and the effect of the stimulus don't result in brain damage and less you're just ridiculous level. Absolutely this is the same thing that I worry about with steroid use. You know this is why, I want to make sure that we actually regulated, because we want to make sure people are not taken doses that are so large that they might actually be causing some damage and we don't regulate it. Yeah. You run that risk and so regulated, and then you, then, if you really care about people what you would do and then you make sure that you monitor them regularly. Make sure that they don't exceed those levels and you educate them about the potential consequences. Will a good exam hold. That is probably the Bodybuilding community, because if anybody takes steroids at hyper human and on preposterous levels, its body builders and yet- very few of them wind up dying from it. There are a

new cases of guys that were like really big in the 80s and 90s that are now dead from heart attack But if you ever see what those fucking guys look like you realize like these, these are not people that are taking normal levels. These are not people that are even taking commence. Levels to their peers, like a lot of them are taking just these insane insane. And some of them have come clean about their routines and what they would use mean they were This redlining, they would red lining their system on a regular day. They were trying to win and they were trying to that's a sport where you have to take so roids mean you're not going to compete with a Lee, Haney or Dorian Yates, not going to compete with them. If you don't take steroids, it's a sport. That is really you have to it's the only way it works. You do your human body, it's not supposed to be that big, yeah! Well yeah. My concern is that we should make sure we keep them safe, make it

that day, to understand what they're doing and how to do it. But that's uh that is a crazy sport. When you think about it, I mean some people, don't even consider it a sport whatever and activity whatever you want to call it. You know, because it's not like you're doing anything other than standing there. Looking big, it's weird right: 'cause you're, not but you're, not trying to run faster. You just standing there is that a sport? Well, you know if they think it is. It competing run activity, certainly a legit activity and their competing. Yes, I guess, but the competition is so subjective. It's like, you look at one guy, I mean I don't get it. I look at the like. If I look at Mister Olympia and is like the top five guys like

they are indistinguishable to me, they're all just giant huge dudes, I don't how to fuck this one person winning one person, not when I don't get it yeah, but you know our ignorance and prevent them from happening to sport. No, no! I'm not saying prevent them from having to support. I'm saying. Is it a sport? You know it's an activity, but that's nothing. Our ignorance, ship prevent them from calling to sport right? I mean you know there are some sports that I just don't get it. I mean golf is clearly a sport, but is it though My wrestling coach in high school, wouldn't even say baseball is a sport. Is I get to deal game, coach, Murphy to skill game. It's not a sport. You get tired! You get tired when you get to push through it when you're playing baseball, get the fuck outta. Here, that's on our support and is run hills. We said it was a sport. Well you know, that's that's how I feel too, but you know the thing is: is that my do on. This, certainly should not be considered.

So, even though that's that's because of my own ignorance, I should not. I shouldn't have much of a say so there, because of our ignorance, I understand, even though I have my view, but you know my view is less important well in body building, if there is a consequence to taking the the the level steroids that you need to take in order to get that big. Like didn't. Arnold have open heart surgery. I think Arnold had heart surgery, I'm pretty sure side. I think for a lot of those guys, but but but on all has had a I mean he at his life has been. You know I don't know why he had open heart surgery so, but I mean clearly he used Aeros. He said this but yeah I don't know. If that's the I mean you know the number one sort of reason that people die in the United States is heart disease and they get that for a variety of reasons, many of them have never taken steroids. So it's a b c d right? Isn't it so be city, poor eating habits, a wide range of things, some genetics, lack of exercise slot enough alcohol, no alcohol, no alcohol, I mean

Moderate alcohol use is associated with lower levels of heart, disease and stroke and all the rest of these things. Why do you that is it just relaxes. People takes a little bit the edge off and less trust on the body. Maybe there is, component that has been identified in alcohol that they think is helpful at getting rid of plaques and that sort of thing, but it's not definitive I don't know, is that one of those things where you have to take a healthy person and expose them call Dan monitor as well,

yeah even feta mean maybe it well. You know it's like if you do a wide range of different types of studies. You know because there is no perfect study, but if you have all of these different types of studies and then you have the evidence coming pointing to the same way the same direction, it increases your confidence that this is real and that's kind of what happened with alcohol to ever been dozens of large studies with thousands of people that have looked at folks who don't drink alcohol. Those people who drink moderate doses and those who drink excessive or larger doses and a moderate drinkers time at the time they are associated with all of these positive outcomes, and so it certainly starting to increase my confidence that it's something real going on where people should drink moderately should drink yeah wow, that's controversially right. Is this pretty controversial? Isn't it

is it ideal, should take a little heroin. They should drink moderately. Should some steroids, obviously not really stating your position, but it is in there's a thing and red wine there's an oxen called bridge vera. Trol is not something that they've succeeded with health as well yeah they were thinking about. It was specific to red wine, but now they think it's just talking I'll call in general yeah in a perfect world doctor Carl Heart, if you were the drugs, are first of all. Why cause we are czars? Aren't they like evil? Isn't that, like a fucking dictator when they or yeah in a way right, yeah. If you know anything about what happens with US drug policy, you can't help but think that they are evil. Byronic ironic, then that we call them the drugs are instead of the drug chairman or the drug, you know overseer or policy sico,

word where you have to understand the first drug czar was William Bennett and I think he he took that title and that's where is he ran with it he's like? Well, I'm a fucking's are going to act like one you were, I mean it's a if a president Obama or President Trump when he gets in office, is that skater shouting or what not real, man 'cause the same thing I live in this country. Look at all of these people run this country I mean, doesn't care about their all. Different, so well. I think if anybody would be different, it might be Trump and he's the only one. That's financially independent, yep yep, and that's probably he's so well, and he also has a has a personality and the other folks who are running for the Republicans. Only have personalities. That is true yeah, but this is not an endorsement, but no means, but this is just the state of fact. He has a personality, and personality means a lot in this goofy country, if anyway,

if someone came along and said? Listen, doctor heart year obviously very educated in this subject much so the average person what do You recommend we do in this country to handle drugs yeah. So the first thing I do that you know you'll be you'll, be really hard pressed to have me like working government for once. I just want to state that, because the thing that I love about being academe is that I'm a free man and then in government, these people talk about what they can't do because of some of the some. Whatever reason, I don't understand how you look in the mirror, when you

so. You can't do things, but if I had some influence on drug policy in this country, first thing I would do was decriminalize all drugs. That would be the first thing that would happen immediately. Then I would change our educational sort of programming in this country surrounding drugs. All of these things that vilified are drug and say that it's the drug that causes that that would be. Out people who are doing this sort of things that the government is paying for their money would dry up if they didn't change their to wait to their educating. That's that's another thing, Another thing I would do would police forces that I had control over. They would when they compass gate drugs, their domain mission, is not to arrest people. The main mission is key: people say whenever they confiscated drugs, they would test them for a

insurance and see what else is in that cocaine? What else is in that heroin and they would be published in the local papers? It would be published in some local sort of form where everyone would know, avoid this type of drug on just packaging, because it has this Dodo adulterant in that not say, whereas something else it doesn't have that adultery, and so the people would be informed immediately. There's another thing, I would do. I will work on legalizing or regulating drug them. All of these trusts figure out what would be the best regulated market for marijuana. What would be the best regulated market for cocaine? What would be the best regulated market for heroin? What will how do we best regulate ecstasy? How do we do this and that's that's where I would go and we would we would we would get rid of the people in jail,

Are there because of drug violation staple of bombs on a little bit of that is kind of scratch, the surface getting people out of jail that are in for non violent drug offenses? But it's been a. It was a very small amount of people and it was there is a big deal about it and I you know I couldn't help but be underwhelmed 'cause. He was only like sixty five people or something like that. I don't remember what the I think the total now has gone up to like eighty something Jesus, just fucking million people in jail. We have two dot three mill yeah. But how many of them are in there for no? No, no you're right, you're, right, you're, right, you're, right, saints, probably half the population right yeah, I know I'm I'm, which you men, you you you and overwhelmed me underwhelmed. I have been disappoint. I mean I voted for Obama, an eye hoping that we get a lot more relief on this thing, so I mean the crack. Cocaine was originally punished, one hundred times more harshly than powder cocaine. At the federal level. It's now punished eighteen times more harshly than powder cocaine that doesn't make any

since they're the same drug. That's just racism right! You know that or come back to racing targeting economic disparity, mean your toy, any people in in poor community yeah. You know we would add to our. The enforcement of drug laws has been racially discriminatory. That's a fact me, but we certainly can come back to the racism piece, but I mean so that sort of thing. We were expecting Obama to his administration of push for one to one equating with crack. What pattern it didn't happen and by the way it's eighteen one now and then, when you look at the arrests of people who are being arrested, it's still eighty percent black. It still does racially discriminate, Tori sort of effect, so change

and that law didn't have any impact on that. That's one thing and then, when we think about the people who are being the sentences have been commuted, you know he has become the president who has commuted more sentences than any other president. I think Johnson was ahead of him at one point, but now he's the past Johnson, But we have to think about when Johnson was president, we matter that two hundred thousand people in jail- you know now we got two dot, three million cells, so really this is a drop in a bucket and that this is due the pointing to me, I am so discouraged and it's heartbreaking actually, because we thought we would See this president be more bold about these things phrase these issues, and some of it is some of these sort of arrests are related to raise and race.

Racial discrimination- is important, but one of the things that happens in our country when we start having this discussion of these discussion about racial discrimination. Is that we still. We were in this frame where poor, black people, poor other people, white people. All these other people in the country who are catching the same hell are not working together as a result of keeping it the disk station tie to the racial discrimination. Although racial discrimination is important in in a lot of domains and that we should not forget that, but there are people there are white people catching the same hell for the same or sim reasons. The reason might not be conspicuously race, but it might be, for other reasons, like I said, I've been traveling all over this all over the world night

went the Belfast Northern Ireland and you got a lot of fans there, like the Catholics, although they're not really catholic. Many of these people are not really Catholics but they're catching hell bye for similar reasons, you know, they're being DOM, created by a british sort of occupation. If you will and there they have similar problems as poor people have in this country, and so one things are trying I'm struggling with. Is that I'm try trying to get people to see how poor black people struggles in the US is connected with poor white people struggle in Belfast it their struggles are connected with poor peoples in the in Brazil all around the globe? These people have more things in common and in and sometimes the conspicuous characteristic of race. Kinda blah,

joins us from our connection with other folks, and so I'm struggling with how to communicate this in a way that everybody can see. Hey we're in this shit together and there are a few elite- is sort of people who are benefiting from us going at each others, throw and not understanding, and then this also just playing right into it. One of the things about cocaine and heroin, and ecstasy, as opposed to marijuana, is that marijuana obviously, is really easy to make. You just put it in this. Round you water, it grows harvested. It's simple: it's like you see it as a leave. You do you don't have to worry about there being a bunch of stuff in it. We talked about a day was sore use, adulterants adulterants someone's taking cocaine and cutting it with something else, becomes when you look at it. It still looks like white powder.

Legalization, if we legalized it as opposed to decriminalising, if you decriminalising it. What you're doing is you're not prosecuting people that are using it. But what do you do? the people that are selling it, and How do you move to an ethical responsible, open market for something like this? so, when you say what do you do with the people who sell? What do you mean the people currently sell? No, no, no will be some people that will be c like if we go to decriminalizing yeah. How? Obviously that means that you're not going to prosecute the people that are using it, but how do they get it yeah? So do we change that so decriminalization, taking about Portugal and Czech Republic You still have the illicit markets in those places, and so people have to understand that decriminalization is not to go out. There listen market decriminalization the major reason that you decriminalizes, that you don't want to put your citizen

in jail, and you want to encourage them to get help if they need help. So it's about the sort of user. That's kind of what you doing, but if you worried about illicit drug markets and you want to get rid of illicit drug markers then regulation is a way to go legal legal regulation and if you worry about adulterants regulation is a way to go because you get rid of the black market and you get to rid of the potential and dangerous compounds that people cut these drugs with. That's my major concern. That's why I kind of push for now regulating these markets, because I'm more afraid of the adults and I'm not afraid of her one. I know how to keep people say what heroin I know how to keep people safe with cocaine. I don't know how to keep people safe with some of the cuts 'cause. I don't know what they are right and no one knows until you test it.

It just seems to me that you're, if we accept the fact that people are doing drugs in this country and we kind of have right- I mean it's not like. There's ever been a time in our country that people stop doing drugs even for a month, there's never been like a month of no one doing drugs in this country, so the higher top president wouldn't function right. I mean those guys take sleeping pills and steam just to get going, I mean they they did, they have to do they really they have to. Using Obama take sleeping pills. Alright, I can't say for sure that he does, but if you, if we had a, I will bet you a lot of money that he does just because he's so tired because he works so crazy hours. He would be see, I would say it responsible if he didn't take sleeping pills. Really, of course you need. Sleep is one of the most important human functions and I want my president to be getting sleep,

but when you take sleeping pills, doesn't alter your rem, sleep and fuck with your cycles, some uh, and certainly can so you try and find want like opiates are outstanding for sleep you're, a big fan of the opiates. Aren't you are you working for the opiate industry? Are you involved somehow, but Are there others that are that will work and I'm sure he has some good physicians. I mean look, do all this is me: the residents have taken stimulants and sedatives as well. They should be currently they have to be on these different coast in the time change and they have to it. Just doesn't make me people who have to be in the public eye hi, I'm sure you they are taking drugs to enhance their humor,

experience and function so to go back to that. There's never been a time. It's not like an achievable goal. There's never been a time where we've gone a month a week a year or whatever, without anyone in this country doing drugs. So we know that the drugs are always going to exist. It would seems to me that this country- that's obsessed with making money to the point where we have privatized prisons and we allow able to profit off of people being in jail. Wouldn't it be yeah better source of income to instead tax league sales of drugs to make everything legal tax it and then you get the benefit like you got in Colorado. Colorado is the first state ever to get more taxes from I wanna than they do from alcohol, which is incredible. They made more money this year from out from marijuana than they have from alcohol and alcohol is been around forever. If we did that with Kane and with heroin with ecstasy, and all these are drugs that we know, people are already using an

We also know people are selling illegally and not paying taxes on it. It's not only people are selling broken going. You know what I'm a coke dealer. Bio responsible american Select pay taxes. I made a hundred million dollars a year. How did you make that money? I'm fucking hustle, you know hustle and flow. You know I do like Dylan Skill, no one's going to do that, so we're missing out on all that tax revenue. As a country I mean it's an economically unsound to not league. Is it in tax it if you know for a fact that people are going to do it yeah, it's things economically, irresponsible and then idea of these public or private prisons. Private prison. Is there a giant issue in this country because they also lobby and the prison unions, the prison guard unions and police officers unions lobby to make sure that drug law state in place to make sure that they have work? It's insidious, it's creepy and it's scary yeah.

Private prison. Now. The thing is: is that they're all those things you said, but I understand they only make up eleven percent of all prison beds in the United States right there, trying to their go in Brazil now and they're going to some other places and and it's certain that we are aware of what you just said but We also need to be aware of places like Louisiana. I think they have the largest number of prisoners in the country. They have local sheriffs, who kind of operate like private prisons, so they bid or they get these state prisoners to be house in the.

Jail, and they receive a certain amount of money for having knows those prisoners in their local jails. So this is a way for the local sheriff's to generate income revenue by taking the prisoners from state prisoners into their local Gerald jails, and so this technically is not private prison, but this is certainly unscrupulous and people should be aware of this going on throughout the country as well, so private prison. These are concerned, but also these local jails and local sheriff's they're doing similar things, but legalizing drugs, though, would be financially a huge boon to our economy. Yeah, yeah, I think so yeah I think so, but uh people will people. I don't know. If that argument alone is, is going to be s, could it be compelling? I mean I, I certainly think it's an, and

argument certain up, not alone, but it's something that should be considered, especially in the wake of what's going on in Colorado, yeah yeah there are people who are saying in terms of Colorado there saying that yeah Colorado is generating all of this tax revenue but they're having to pay out a lot of it too, because they have to enforce this new law, and so people are kind of distorting this sort of stuff. Right, but I think overtime, Colorado and other places is going to show that this is a huge benefit and the benefits far outweigh the I think an similar to what's going on in Portugal. Will you see the decrease in violent crime, the decrease in addiction, the decrease in all sorts of different problems are Asos decrease in revenues to their prisons and all of those things yeah

all the negative aspects of that we associate with drugs. A lot of it is negative aspects of crime. Yeah see the thing about Portugal, too. You have to understand in places like Portugal, Switzerland knows kind of places where they kind of take care of the people. They are more of a homogeneous society than we are and when you have a place like the United States, where we're not Asmaa, just like la you guys have every nationality ethnic group raised there all here not homogenous at all, and so one of the things that the drug laws have has done, and it has allowed us to separate out those people we don't like and go after them, so we decriminalise it makes it more difficult. So you taking away that tool, whereas paw to go to Swiss and those folks there such

Marginis societies that kind of care about the people in their society, because the people who are empower They see that many of the people who might be subjected to these loss. They look like them, they are there in our society, since it's not as the margin is it's easy for us to think about these drug laws being used to go out. That does people who don't share our value. That's that's what we say, but they really don't look like us and they're, really not uh. So this can't really happen, because we know that there are number people who look like folks who are in Washington and they are using, drugs they're using a lot of drugs, but they're not subjected to drug policy. I see what you're saying and so it's like. We have to be honest about why we have these policies in place in the first place they allow. I was to go out there to people, we don't like without explicitly saying so, so I

I think overall, as an overview we're looking at is we have a society that has a lot of ignorance when it comes to both the prevalence of drugs, the use of drugs and the effect of drugs, and that ignorance is part of the problem and it's shaped not just public opinion, but also show, Paula C shaped how politicians address these issues like like a guy like Chris Christie, that is allowed say ignorant stuff. The reason why he's not booed off stage? He does it is for a lot people in the audience. They don't know that what he's saying is unbelievably ignorant yeah and he can't provides the cover for them. You know they kind of support these things because there's not happening to them and less those other people who don't share their values is what they say, but they really don't. Look like they don't they don't dress like them. They don't go to the same schools. They don't do any of these things. So

rusty when he says that he sang is because he's representing uh what many us Americans think and he's providing cover for that bigoted ignorance or that uninformed perspective, So what you're doing now with this touring all around the world and you speaking in all these places like what? What are you doing yeah. You know I I was at well, I I spoke at the World Health Organization this past summer, universities in Belfast and London Geneva. Of course, Brazil, please just down there speaking I'll, be in Canada next month. So just doing all of these, these talks I'm trying to have these kind of conversations strong, inform people trying to let people know that deep in hoodwinked all around the world. They've been hoodwinked particularly come.

Is that follow the US drug policy and trying to expose why the countries are following this policy that has had its a detrimental impact on their citizens? How is this received? Is it really firstly received, or is it there's different places that are more open to it? Yeah you know. In Brazil, for example, they followed the US wholeheartedly and Brazil has. Fifty percent of the population is black right. Fifty percent they have like the great is african populations outside of Africa, update a mode and and imprisoned stir jails are filled with black people, and the more people in the country are black and their drug policy is being used as a tool to further marginalized this group. Basically, and so when I go down there and speaking and brought there by their government oftentimes, it's well received even from the ruling class and the

and so it's a conundrum to me quite frankly- that I'm so well received there by the ruling class. But there are some people who is who are very interested in changing policy geneva and those places. What I'm saying to them? Those folks there there like no shit. We know that you know, and they dare dare. Drug policy is reflected or it's more rational go to. France equally is ignorant as we are and they use their Paula jerk policy just like we do, and they are equally agar arrogant. As we are Belfast, they are they're trying I mean they are there catholic population? You know there on the siege, basically Vancouver, they feel message. Of course, Norway. All of these people

they are responding 'cause. They know. This is not I'm not wish. I was brilliant and bright and all those things I'm not now. This is not anything. That's earth shattering. These people know many of the people around the world. Calum we went was in Colombia, those people, their politicians, they know but they're getting a lot of money from the US to continue this sort of war on drugs, Mexico they know but they're getting a lot of money from the US continue. Does Warren Drug House in Mexico decriminalized a lot of things they decriminalize everything, but nobody talks about it because as I pointed out earlier in Portugal, The person is allowed to have a ten day supply of drugs before that that triggers some sort of criminal prosecution. So you can have a ten day supply of methamphetamine heroin. Whatever in Mexico

you get. Do you trigger of a criminal offense when you have just a small amount of something? So it's like? It's really not decriminalization. You know it's just. They lowered the threshold that Rick that trigger a criminal process, a prosecution, and so it's late doesn't really play out in the spirit of decriminalization. There, so they probably did it to appeal to the United States laws or to abide by what the United States is looking for them to yeah. I don't know exactly why they did it, but I know they're continuing their war on drugs in part because of us, which is a war on drugs, is really a war on people and particularly a war on poor people as we know, and I'm against wars you know and number next military person. Now people want to see you talk and are you still traveling yeah yeah? Where

maybe find out about you buy website Doctor Carl Hart COM and when is the new book coming out? No book won't be out into that the presidential election? Ok, alright! Well, thank you very much. You're always awesome real. Appreciate it. Be there man, I really dig what you do and thank you for happy. Thank you, Sir She ate very much an follow him on Twitter, Doctor Carl Hart on Twitter Doctor Carl. Is it doctor car art, dot, com's website? Thank appreciate it. I ready. Thank you very much tune into the podcast? And thank you to our sponsors. Thanks to anit dot com go to an it use the code. Word Rogan and save ten percent off any and all supplements. Thank you to me, undies the best God. Damn underwear on the planet earth go to meundies dot com, Slash Rogan, get twenty percent off your first order and thanks to Square Space Square space, the best fucking way

And for you to be free to make your own website of website that looks amazing and professional code square space, dot, com use the offer code Joe and you will get to percent off your first purchase an thank you also to Caveman coffee for getting us through this mother. Fucker, caveman, coffee, dot, com, caveman, coffee, co, dot, com, we love, you fuckers will see you soon, bye, bye. Big CASS.