« The Joe Rogan Experience

#729 - Jocko Willink

2015-12-01 | 🔗
Jocko Willink is an author, black belt in Brazilian jiu jitsu, and retired commander of the most highly decorated special-operations unit of the Iraq War: US Navy SEAL Team Three Task Unit Bruiser, which served in the 2006 Battle of Ramadi. His book "Extreme Ownership" is available now via Amazon -- http://amzn.to/1Nmzm9E
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Oh hello, friends, comedy dates coming up to say eleven time at the car theater at the MGM, with the great Joey Diaz Joey Diaz. Been blowing up lately and it's very difficult to get him to do shows with me days: 'cause he's just headlining everywhere, which is awesome but uh. I get soap But when I do get a chance to work with him, and so I will be one of the rare dates that we do together. That's December, December 18th, I'm at the Bob Carr. What is PAC stand for performing arts center never remember in Orlando Florida and then the Big show the big show and if you're interested in the big show, the Bob Carr Theater almost sold out and the Will it is also almost sold out. That is December. 31st in LA Angela's New Year's eve, the big show that is honey, the band Joey, fucking, Diaz, Dunkin, Fucking Trust,
an all re, motherfucking, Shafir and me December. If it's a fucking gangbuster of a show. Ladies and gentlemen, probably the biggest battle show we've ever put on ever that's December. First and there's a lot of other shit, I got coming up, but you can go to Joerogan dot net, find out all about that, including going to be in New York City at the beacon I've got three show is now at the Wilbur theater in Boston 'cause, the first two sold. I could have cakes, cakes lays and get on the steps of the podcast. You do hear that that cop going down clink, that's K. Man, coffee company benches, right there in the mug Caveman Coffee CO, dot com go there enjoy indulge. They have kettle Bell coffee mugs, how 'bout that you need that at the office
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He's a former Navy seal who wrote a book called dream ownership, and I don't want to say anything more about him because he's just an excellent guest. I mean it was really really really enjoyed talking to him and he's an exceptional human being, and I think you will you, as I did, learn a lot from him today. So without any further ado. Please welcome my guest Mister Jocko Willink experience trying my day Joe Rogan Podcast my name all day, all right. Ladies and gentlemen, we are here and I'm here with Jocko Willink of extreme ownership. How Us Navy seals, lead and win. I'm really excited to read this 'cause. I really enjoyed your podcast with TIM. Never seen you around the you have see a bunch of times, but I know I didn't know much about you, but you one of those dudes. You know
where I look at this guy MIKE that guy probably knows some shit. This is system in about you like. When I see you, you know you're hanging around with Lister. I saw you a few times at the UFC online. I probably know some shit. He seen some shit Then I saw that are listened to the TIM Ferriss Podcast. I go ok! Well. That makes a lot of sense. Now, if you haven't heard that podcast it is x, and you're the one of the first guy ever to come with your own notepad in your own pen to just one point that out just trying to be prepared. Well, that's your whole thing, man I'm a big fan of your social media posts to because I like feeling like a lazy fuck. Whenever I look at your social media posts, you have a picture of your watch. Four hundred and forty five in the mornings dudes out there working now. I like it yeah it's interesting, 'cause, Now obviously had zero social media presents like three months ago or whatever the case may be. An TIM Paris was, you know, basically said hey. You need to get on this social media stuff, and I
ok. Can you kind of show me what to do and he said yes signups going to signed up and then he dropped that podcast. That gets to listen to buy a bunch of people and all of a sudden I was engulfed in the social media world and I found twitter to be the one that was the easy to use and you don't have to write a lot. So you don't like people, talk, a whole bunch saying anything. So I figured that was pretty cool yeah. That was the thing that I was thinking when he was encouraging you to use social media is like a guy like do you not a peacock? Are you know? and there's something about social media as a person who's, an avid social media user. There's some peacocking to it when I try to do it with humor, and I tried it because it's it's an important task, they're, promoting comedy, shows and podcasts and things along those lines, but you're much more of keep it to yourself. Like one of the things that I loved about the fairest podcast. You were talking about how
you would have commanders have come to various leader and ask them what do you need? What do you need? you guys would have all these requests and all these things we need Wi Fi. We need this and you were like we're good, sir we're good sir, and the idea behind that is when you did need something. If you really did need something someone to come to you Yeah? You would get a quickly absolutely when I, when I needed something- and I spoke up and said: hey, hey boss. This is what I need, and this is why I need it. They would instantly give to me because they knew that I was telling the truth. It wasn't some you half assed request that wasn't something that we legit needed and they give it to me. Well, this is the value of someone who keeps their word short and means what they say and says what they mean and doesn't have a lot of bullshit involved in their vocabulary or in this coming from a professional bullshitter
in this. What I do I buy bullshit I talk, you know, fill a lot of hours of just shooting the about nonsense. Yeah and I mean I I have to you- know, look in the mirror myself I mean I just wrote with my my partner life Babbin, who I served with you know we just wrote a three hundred page book about us so for all practical purposes. Now, of course, it's about our team and it's about what we learn, what we experience, but there's no doubt that there's some level of you know self promotion when you're writing a book. That's got your name on the cover of it and and now sitting here talking to you, and I guess that puts me in the same league, maybe not the same league but at least I'm playing the same sport yeah we're definitely playing the same sport, but that, but there's benefit to that, because I think what you have to say ok, and especially what you had to say in the TIM Ferriss podcast is, is very important. It's it's not just important. It's unique because your perspective is of one who was involved in the most,
intense activity a human being can participate in in today's world. You were involved in combo in Iraq during the worst time of the war- and you came through it with some pretty intense lessons and you can. I think anybody listening to that podcast can get a lot out of it. There's inspiration to be gotten from that podcast for sure but there's also an understanding that can only be I don't think anybody else can relay what you experienced, but you you know you can have all these guys that write these you know movies and they could write. Screenplays and television shows about it or guys can write books about it. Embedded journalists can write about it. It's not the same. It's not the same I got a sense from just you talking about it on TIM Ferriss POD.
Just literally a shift in my perspective, of what it's like to be there yeah. It is, you know for me, it was my and I know this might sound weird, but it was my lifelong dream to be in combat and to be in a leadership position in combat. Ever since I could remember wanting to do anything of the substance with my life. I wanted to be some kind of a commando, and so I really felt and the battle Ramadi was you know, like you said there's two thousand and six. It was Ramadi Iraq. It was the worst place in the world at the time, and I knew the and I saw like my whole life had sort of been preparing me to be there in that position. Taken care those guys to the best of my ability and going out and and sending them out, to go and kill the enemy and supporting the
conventional forces that were there that were unbelievably brave and humble and just MA vacuously patriotic and we found a brotherhood that you know to this day. I don't you will ever be replaced, and you can see why you know these stories of war, the time and when we talk about the Peloponnesian wars, we talk about war for all time, because there's something there and I think it's what we began with, because it is the ultimate human test. You know it's the ultimate, it is other p all are trying to kill you you're trying to kill them and that's just the ultimate test and not that it's a great, castor attest that everyone should want to have happen because it's awful and horrible and red in many ways, but the same time it's there and it's present, and there is no avoiding it. There is
no avoiding it. War is part of the world. It's part of human nature. I know Dana right, you know, says fightings in our dna. Well, you don't have to go, but one two degrees further from fist fighting to where you know, tribes of human beings are trying to kill each other yeah, it's one of the subjects. Talked about with my friend Duncan. We were we're going over this and we essentially and the conclusion that the history of the human race is a history of military warfare mean you talk about the human way race. You talk about the civil war, you talk about you, world war, one world war. Two Korea in Vietnam. You talk about wars and in between those wars, people preparing for more war or trying to avoid war, the cold war in between wars. You know you talk about the various conflicts throughout history, whether it's gang is con or where, where is Napoleon or whether you're talking about war, mean almost all
all of our history has been trying to keep people from fucking with us and trying to take things that we think will help RP. That's essentially the history of the human race yeah, and I think what really brakes people on. Why there's an almost sick fascination with it in some ways is because there it's. You know. We say that combat is like life but amplified and intensified. So it's similar to regular life, except for the consequences, are obviously everything you know you can die. That can be the end of you So when you're in that moment and when you read out that when people read these books or watch these movies, they get some sense of what that must be. Like a knife, that's why there is like, I said some attraction, do it I mean that's, why there's hundreds and is a war movies and hundreds and hundreds of war books, because people try and uh
understand what that emotional content really means. Well, there's no Higher stakes so anytime, you're involved in an activity that literally there are no higher stakes other than the loss of your loved ones. In the grief that you would suffer because of that, the LOS your own life is about the highest, take possible an when I talked people like you or many of the other guys that I've talked to that have served and been involved in combat one of the craziest ask pics of it is many want to be back there. Many experience that life tuned up, eleven and they they recall it like it's the best time of their life. There's no doubt about it best time of my life, not busy, no doubt about it, feeling that pressure knowing what was at stake and again for in a leadership position. You know every it feels a little bit different from me in a leadership position. You know
worried about yourself getting her killed, you're worried about your guys getting hurt, killed and that's the most important thing thing. That's keeping you awake at night and the thing that's driving you and so. There's an intensity there, having so much pressure and so much at stake when it goes away. It's definitely leaves a hollow empty space inside there's, no doubt about it. When you see it with fighters with boxers mma fighters when they retire, they have a real hard time. Finding live life to be fulfilling. And I could only imagine it would be way more intense because of war, because the thing about it is it's such a solitaire e sport. You know you have your team behind you, you have coaches, you have guys that prepare with that you train with, but once you're locked up inside
cage or you step inside that ring. It's really all about you. The experience is yours: when you're at war lyrics is protecting all those around you as well as staying alive, an losing friends and thinking that you could have done something differently, and maybe someone would still be here. That's that's a completely different kind of thing to leave and to come back, two regular civilization and then to watch all the shit that you did in Iraq go to pieces now. You watch just fucking chaos over there now, every day in the news that the weather, it's the the civil war between the Suni and the or whether it what's going on with isis- and it just seems like whatever game
means that you guys made there are slowly being eroded every day. Does that also like pull at you? Oh yeah? Absolutely so we know like? I said we fought and when I say we I'm talking about a giant group of five thousand or six thousand Americans or the one one ad, just a huge group of awesome, guys, soldiers and marines- and we were apart of them, and so they we also very hard for the city of Ramadi. I mean this is it city, it's a city like a city in America. It's a you know, it's got roads and it's got houses and Scott Building and it's got a government center. It's got a soccer stadium, it's a city like what we have in America and we went in there and fought to take this city back from these savages that owned it at the time, and why do I call him savages? It's because they tortured people, the skinned people alive they beheaded people, they raped
girls and little boys? That was just disgusting, and so we went in there and fought against them and beat them and what we did in doing. That is the p people that actually live there again. This is a city with human beings in it, and I always have to tell the story or at least relate to people that you'd be running down the street. There be guns firing around if you kick open the door to a compound to somebody's house and you get in there and there'd be you know a guy, a dad working on a car and there be two kids kicking a soccer ball and there be a mom cooking lunch, and so there's people there and those people wanted us to be there and wanted us to defeat the insert things that were terrorizing them and we did- and they were joyous about that. And so, when you talk about what do I think now, when I see ISIS the black flag of ISIS, I mean, is there any other more dramatic
image? Then I could tell you then, that the black flag of ISIS now flies at the government center Ahmadi, it's it's horrible and it's sick ning and they went around and anyway it had anything to do with the coalition there. They went around with a list of names and they murdered all of them in all their families, and you know we. We as a country, we kind of left them hanging, and it's it's horrible, see that we left them hanging and we instigated allow crazy. We took Saddam Hussein out of power, which is probably ultimately a good thing to get rid of that guy who's, no and that he was a psychopath and his sons were evil fucks, but in creating that vac room like when the leadership is gone, you kind I have a responsibility to man is that area now is crazy. That sounds like
people want to say we're not in the building. The war were not in the the business of nation building. What are we're? Not building process or the the business of. Organizing or structuring a nation building a democracy out of one which did not have one ever, but you kind of have do well look what we did in Germany and Japan yeah we're still in both those countries yeah. We stayed there and get What the what two two economic super hours behind America. You know I know two were both in the top five German is definitely had a Europe. You know, besides China, but Japan. Those are at mix super powers that are very successful countries and we formulated their new structure now there's a lot of resistance in this country. There always was a lot of resistance to going to Iraq in the first place. 'cause people didn't understand the connection between nine hundred and eleven in Iraq, and it seemed like it was manufactured. It seemed like to people on this side that you know we
looking at it and we're looking at Dick Cheney and Donald spelled and all these chicken hawks that wanted us to go over there and why? But once you're there, you you kind of, have to have a different approach. Don't you well, there's? No doubt you have to have a different approach. You have to believe in what you're doing and again when you're number one and every every soldier or marine or service member will tell you that when there combat they're, not thinking about you, know the strategic mission of United States of America they're thinking about the guy, that's next to him, and what they're going to do to keep that keep their bodies alive, and that's. That's all there is to- and that's true in anyone will tell you that. But that being said come back from that operation- and you have time to think about what you're doing there, then you how to believe in what you're doing? And if you don't believe in what you and then you're going to have some serious issues, and so for me it was pretty obvious that what we were doing was was absolutely the right thing.
I mean you've got insurgents there that were foreign fighters that want to kill everyone in America. They hate us, they want to destroy us, so they want to do nine hundred and eleven over and over again in this country. They want to kill us all and so just to be there fighting them. I am totally on board was on board and remain that way. Today. Surgeons that came into these places, like Ramadi an were taking over the city and killing all these people and torturing all these people. Why were they doing that to them? It's the same. It's the same thing that ISIS did when they went back, I mean they want to have a chunk of land at the time they they said that Ramada is going to be the seat of their calef. It's going to be the capital city of their caliph, it that's what they were trying to do so in a sense like once war started over there, it became a holy war yes in it's a holy war, but it's in
listing because the people of Iraq there's people in Iraq, most people in Iraq when you, talk to them, they're normal people that want to have a job. You know build a new addition on their house fix the roof, get some good food for dinner. That night, raise their kids, so they can take over the family business or whatever that's what they want. They're, not a bunch of people running around doing what ISIS is doing, but who is the powerful force in you know in Iraq. Right now now everyone scared of ISIS and one thing about this- is there you know, because Iraq is have this kind of patriotic feeling that we have in America, which I know it may be dying in many cases, but there's a lot of Americans still believe America is the greatest country on earth, and that if you don't believe its greatest country on earth, and even if you see it for all of its faults that it has. You appreciate the
fact that in this country you have freedom, and so you can kind of, wait for that, no matter what you're thinking about your fighting for freedom, you're fighting to protect your family well in Iraq, they're like ok, I'll I'll fight for or whoever I'll fight for whoever or support whoever is going to allow me to live. They don't have the same attitude. That's why we, ISIS, came into Ramadi in the iraqi true kind of ran away there like. Well, we don't know, what's going to happen, we don't really have that core belief that they're fighting for so I think that's where some of the challenges come in and as they grow that they will will perform better. But it's definitely going to take. You know quite a bit of time. The patriotism in America was at its all time, high around September. Eleven right right after that happen, you You never saw more flags mean driving down the street in every car, had a flag hanging from it. No doubt about, I mean it was a body mind jaylon,
sold flags, that's what he used to do, sell car flags flags he put on cars. They had a good business going for awhile, but like a lot of things, people got accustomed to it. They got the settled in, and everything got back down to its normal level. It's so so is as big buzz of patriotism. Well, there's a big buzz of patriotism when you feel threatened Mmhm and we never feel threatened in America. Everyone is driving around in a nice big s. U v that gets eight miles to the gallon big air conditioned blasting they're, looking at their Iphone texting people socially interacting through the through the Wi Fi, it and they're not concerned about their safety, and so we're not concerned about your safety. What is there left to be patriotic when you don't understand what it means to live in fear, so yeah? So 11th comes and you get attacked and you feel that fear
guess what you rally around this thing: America, that's protected, you and your family, but you didn't think about it before, but now you're thinking about it- and you know you know what I'm gonna put the flag up on my up on my vehicle, this vehicle that I drive around in complete luxury, which is what America is like America is unbelievably luxurious compared to the rest of the world, is also unquestionable evil involved in flying planes into build. Zing killing civilians, just randomly haphazardly suicide bombing, essentially with the plane right into a building of all that was so evil that everybody just there. There was no way, there's no gray area, and that was pretty clear is about as clear as any event ever in human history agree now, when you found out. I mean you are already involved in the military when all this was going on You signed up like long before they like you. If there's anybody that I've ever met, that I've ever talk about those
This is how you feel you're born for this. This is this. Is your your your goal, your post in life? Yes, what What what pulled you into them? You grew up in New England. I did what part Connecticut in Maine, so I'm just sticks out on a dirt road, just kind of, General American General American? What? What was it that? through you to it like. Where did you develop this sense of patriotism? Well, I would say, prior to the feeling of patriotism, you know I like but I want to be some kind of a commando, and I would say that you, when you join the military, I'd, say people that are somewhat patriotic joined the military, but you travel around the world and you're in the military. That kind of confirms your patriotism or anything
Could you see what the rest of the world is like and how unbelievably amazing America is an again? Does America have faults? Yeah America's got all kinds of faults: there's all the things that we could do better and there's things that we've done in the past, that we should have done and there's things will do in the future that we shouldn't have done, but when you compare that with the rest of the world and how the rest, the world lives and what it means to be in an EPR best society, you're extremely thankful to be in America. This is once you've already been in the military and already started trout. So this is just you just had this draw towards it almost like your destiny, to be in the military yeah. Yes, that's it. It sure is strange that just came out of no, where I think there was no like event in your life. It just seems like this is just something that it was always. You are always attracted to I'm run around the woods as a little kid with BB once shooting each other, and that seemed like a good job.
Well in this funny. You know in seal you, don't you don't grow up, you don't Continue with your childhood. You know play time for your whole adult life- and it's awesome, you know that's the best thing about the seal teams. Is get to do what you always wanted to do and they pay you money and you get unlimited ammunition. Unbelievably types of weapons, bomb guns, explosives, grenades and they give it all to you and they say, get after well, they get excited, and then finally, I, like you, we got here. We go smart guy who was born to do this who's really looking forward to it. It's perfect, so I'm sure the recruiter was pretty fired up when he met me. I would be if I was really get out of the way and let me sign the paper that one check check the boxes and it's kind of it's even more intense, because it's not just you get to play, but only the strong get to play the week. Organ we
weeded out and what's left is people of similar character. That's what I found the most fascinating. I think that's one of the thing it's so romantic in the Publix I about the idea of the seals or green berets or rangers people that is very difficult to get in there and only a select few have the intestinal fortitude. Will power and the ability to to lock onto a task in a goal and get through it yeah and then, when you're in the seal teams. None of that means anything and, like all the training and all that selection process is just doesn't mean anything because you all that's just the baseline of where everyone's at and so when people talk about this intense training when you're in the seal teams? You don't talk about that training that you go through to get it, but that's just the baseline for everybody So it's just to make sure that you're not a pussy. Just exactly exactly, and here you are
forty four years old, you still get number four clock in the morning doing deadlifts. Thank you. It never left you. It did not. Leave me it's not going to is. It is not going so you you get through once you get through the the in and intensity of bugs, and you you get through. You know all the people they're gonna quit and you get through all the training. What is life like from there on out like how structured is training and physical activity, and things like that from there on out, you know again being in the seal teams, is awesome. It's such a and job that I literally didn't consider it a job except for maybe thirteen months out of career thirteen months. I worked for the directly for the animal that in charge of all the seals and he's a great guy and I learned a ton from him an from having that job, but it wasn't fun.
Job, and even he would tell you it's not a fun job. Either you've got who you are you're wearing a uniform everyday and in the reg, feel teams, you're wearing a pair of shorts and you're, barely wearing a shirt, 'cause you're out there in the field or you know getting ready, go in the field, so it's it's a great life and you're, constantly training, you're hanging out with a bunch of guys that are pretty much have the same attitude as you for the most part, there's a couple of guys that don't cut it and there's some guys that are super studs and you're doing your to emulate them, but you're hanging out with them great guys, and you know when I was a young seal we'd get to Friday and we go out, have a we get done saturday- we still go to work Sunday. We still go to work, we don't work out. We hang out. We do work on our gear. We get ready, there's even not even a war going on, we were just into it. We were just fired up for this you'll teams, and that was so it's a it's a great life and then once the war started, the intent
we definitely picked up, because you know everybody knew that we were going into combat and everyone pushed that much harder. That being said back in the 90s, we used to train really really hard because there was an unknown element. You know there unknown element where you didn't know what was really going to know what combat was really like. So you trained as hard as you possibly could figure out how to train we trained and then once combat started, and we Ok. Well, we kind of know what we're dealing with now. It be like a fighter go into a camp if he's never fought in the UFC before he's going to train super hard to make his debut. Well, maybe after he wins, really easily's first couple of fights, maybe he backs off on the training camp am not that we did that, but it definitely until he was there to push hard. Even for combat? So just essentially saying that, even before you were going to war, you were gonna, be ready. You you were gonna make sure that you had all your boxes checked in. Yet all your ducks in a row, one hundred percent, how much
physical training is there once you're actually deployed it it depends on where you are and what you're doing you know it depends on what type? missions are going on, but be in school teams is a very physical job and again It is it's a baseline. Everyone expects are going to be able to put on your rucksack in your gear and go out and move and shoot and communicate. That's the I never expected to do it. Whatever you have to do to to make that happen is kind of on you. Although we do do team what we call PT physical train, but we do team PT, but a lot. It is on you as an individual or your smaller element. You know, group of guys and that's how you you got a to stay in shape. You do not want to be the guy that you know can't carries kickers, wait, that's just you'll you'll get you'll get kicked out, but it's not structured, it's not organized like say, if you're deployed in Iraq, what I was getting at was, I always wondered I would imagine that the type of workouts that you do their exhausting right. You know you're deadlifting you
and cleans and presses, and all this crazy shit and chinups and running up hills. If you I had to go to war right after a hard workout like that, it's going to take something out of you. Yeah you've got to use you gotta use common sense. But how do you know when to stay in shape or what to do yeah you're not going to do like massive squat workout, while you're on deployment? That's going to put you in the hardware for three or four days: it's just not smart You know you're, going to it's. Like a Pavel, you know the Pavel actually yeah, you know he kind of I heard that from him years and years ago you know 'cause. He was trained in some Swat guys up in LA, and I talked to some of those guys and they said you know. Well, don't you don't need to go to exhaustion to get stronger system, ok, cool, let's try that, and so you've got to be ready to operate, that your primary mission, you gotta, be ready to go out on the battlefield and get after it, so you're not going to crush yourself so hard.
You're incapacitated yeah he's not a guy that believes in going to failure. Right he's got some interesting. He doesn't ideas, like some some follower from just one of those things I heard along the way yeah I mean there's a lot of different philosophy when it comes to training. But when you so what was that, when you're deployed it's essentially all entirely on you other than the the the the group organized PT trainings just about yeah, just about so, do you guys get together and say, hey we're going to go running or we're going to lift today we're going to let's go. Do some pull ups? What about martial arts training? How much martial arts training is involved? Ugh that depends on you know what the situation is and who you're working with you know. If If you were a junior officer that was working for Maine, then you are going to be trained in Jiu Jitsu all the time. If they work for you, so it depends on who they're working for you know I needed training partners, and so I got him so when you did that
would you take guys and teach him some basic stuff and then just shit out of him to move pretty much pretty much. Do you talk him through it, while you're doing it like defense, and get your arm here? Lookout yeah, but you know I should I would actually improve. You know I'd, go on deployment and come back and you know some guy that maybe I was having good battles with before. I left that come back and be better 'cause, all of a sudden you're going to work on really good offense into a bunch of strong. You know psycho seals that don't want to tap right. You got to make it work, so you know back in and be better. I wouldn't I wouldn't get worse on deployment. That's for sure! That's Eddie! Bravo theory! He believes that the real way to get better is not to train with people better than you, but to train with people that are good as you and just constantly drill finishes over and over and over again sharpen them up like a samurai sword
and then, when you do spar with people that are your level or better you'll, be much better. Just because your consul used to finishing yeah and, I think, there's a combination of both- you got to turn the employer better than you. You got to train with people are person you and we do that in seal training to wear call seal training. Iran before I got out was not like the seal training. We see with the guys with the the the logs during those around or boats on that, like I said, that's the basic training and no one really cares too much about that. Once you get in the seal teams, because it's just over to smash you in the beginning, smash you make sure, like you said, make sure that you do not exactly have the intestinal fortitude bring it, but once you get in the seal teams, then you go through. And called the work up and that's when you've got couple tunes that are trying to work together and we do crazy simulate combat on these guys? That is awesome. I mean it's it's devastating and we we would have a paint ball again. This is like a little kid stuff right. You get
get awesome, Paintball Guns Unlimited paintball rounds. We had this this, like the best laser tag system that anyone could ever imagine this crazy, expensive laser tag system where you could go out and fight each other with laser tag and when you're getting shot at. If the rounds weren't theoretically hitting you, then there was a little speaker on your shoulder. That would make noises as if rounds were going over your head so that you would know to get down and there explosions going off on these little speakers and then, when you get back from the training operations, all the they have little embedded. Gps is so you put it out on Google Earth and you could watch the whole battle unfold and watch what people did right and wrong, and my point this is that sometimes many too, especially in the beginning, when the sea- those weren't quite up to speed, yet they don't know how to together that well, three or four five posing for seals. So these are guys that are pretending to be bad guys. They would kill them all
just go out there and murder them all and, as these guys got better and started to work together and the leadership started to step up and take command in and do a better job of leading, then all of a sudden, a the seals would start to beat the the opposing forces. I'm not wait! Why did incredible tool to learn how to organize and did to stay together and work together as a team that what did they used to do in the past? Well, a very interesting topic, because it's very similar to you know what the UFC did martial arts, because you know, as you know, in one thousand nine hundred and ninety one? You know you and I could sit here and talk and you could be a kung fu guy and I could be an aikido guy and we could be like no, my martial arts better and you could be saying the same thing and we could theoretically debate it all day long but we've never actually do it Ann difference between combat. Obviously you can't, we can't say: ok, let's find out which ones better and we're on the same team was going to kill each other to find out. You can't do that so the first,
what happened with Simunition and that's you know they basically started Paintball, but it's high speed, paintball that you know fits in your real gone. If it's really if it's in real gun, so you take your you put a new barrel on your standard issue web. And now you're, shooting paint balls out of your will gun. You have thirty rounds. You change magazines like very, very similar to real combat and all of a sudden, just like a punching bag. You know when people say the punching bag doesn't punch back when you go into a into a house and you shoot a bunch paper targets, they don't move, they. Don't you back. So it's you know, guess what who win every single time and you can get pretty confident with your tactics, but your tactics aren't getting tested and so when these great technologies come came out, simulation paintball and these laser type systems it was. It was a complete change and we definitely change our tactics. Are tactics evolve just like fight tactics involved with the with the advent of the UFC and people said. Oh, this doesn't work the way we thought it did and
You know this idea of what we're going to go running into a room and no one is going to stop no matter what? No, actually, if there's a machine gun just lay in pain, in two years you go in you're stupid if you go run into that room, so we made simple adjustments, but it was an inner listing progression and it definitely imprinted the fact. You have to make your training as realistic as possible and also it also shows you how people humans have a tendency to believe in what they are doing, just because it's kind of what they believe in and you know again, I think, those those personal martial arts that were so popular, you know back in the day, people truly believe that, like no, I will actually stop you with. You know with my chi Mai, CHI be when they really thought that I had one of my Jiu Jitsu buddies was you know some guy in nineteen. Ninety five, like you, cannot take me down and he said bully mean I once I settle my chi. You cannot take me down and he said well, okay, settle,
do you want to try and the guys like sure you can try all you want. So the guy you know stands there and settles is g out and my body goes. Are you reading these guys yeah and he spike double legs in spanish mother, but it, but the guy believed it that's crazy and that's what that's what people get lowered in You know our egos lowers into a lot of stuff that we need to watch out for well, the belief is based on being taught it by people who also believe it too, and it's so confusing because no ones experienced in real life, which was why the initial question was when they used to prepare there like back in Vietnam WAR. You know during the first well, was this stuff invented like did they had during the First Gulf war? Barely barely very small groups had it. You know not not as many they have the laser set up and everything. I know we did get the good now they had that they had a worse laser system. You know they've been trying to do it for years, but what did they
to do like during the Vietnam era? Go off the experience of guys that had been in world? two in Korea change. I pass it on and luckily and honestly you know being in combat the basic principles of combat. Are not these super crazy, complex things, you know the most basic principle that that we talk about is covering move, which is, if you and I are going to assault a building over there. I'm going to I'm going to take cover. Want to engage that building so that the enemy can't put their heads up and I'm shooting at the building shooting where we I think the enemy. Are you going to get up and maneuver into a better position? once you get into a better position and you get some cover you're going to start shooting, And that's going to allow me to move once I get to a better place, I'll start shooting and will continue to do that supporting each other as we move to a target and then once we get there will kill the bad guys and it'll be it'll. Be done, that's the most basic principle, but there's times where, before you know in between Vietnam, which is where we had
your combat in people learn that cover moving guys at work. Vietnam with people. I've taught me cover, move image in that time and the time and we started using the simunition and the lasers the better products we actually frog, some of those lessons as crazy that as that might seem, we actually forgot some of these very simple basic lessons of gunfight. And so it was great to have it back and it You know when we when we went to combat. Finally, we were more prepared for it yeah. I would imagine that kind of simulation. You call it simunition, that's that's an actual name brand and ok, it's a name brand is the paint yep So simulation is the pain, the laser. What is the name brand of that stuff, the one that we used was called debts and it was made by saab- and I don't know I don't know if they still make it or if that contract still going, but it was
Unlike your analogy to martial arts like testing it in actual competition, because it would seem that that would be the only way that anybody would ever actually learn what mistakes not make and how they could easily be replicated in combat. And then the repeated actions of doing those over and over again and ingraining them in your mind is prob. The only thing that could really you could on when you're in those intense situations of an actual fire fight. Yeah there's another good comparison. I don't know if you've ever heard. Somebody kind of say this, but. You know they'll say like let's I trained some kung fu stuff where I'm like an eye attacker and I rip your throat out and all that stuff and you train. You know Jujitsu moitie rest in boxing right, so people will say that you're not ready for the fact that I'm going to poke your eyes out or you're, not ready for the fact that I'm going to try and grab your throat or whatever, and therefore I have an advantage and
and that you have some kind of a training scar, because you aren't used to doing that, The ecm saying so, if, like I said, if all I who is trained to grab your eyes and poke your throat or whatever pressure point type attack, then that means that I'm better prepared for a street conflict. And as you and I both know like a guy that does that versus a guy that trains in mixed martial arts, boxing wrestling moitie Jujitsu that guys going to Destroy this other person in a street fight and the guy grab for his eyes and then he's going to his arm broken off and he's gonna get punched in at forty seven times, but point and tell him that that is that we had the same type of people in inside the seal teams. That said, oh it you get used to training with paintball, then you're going to develop training scars from it. So you're, not going to be used to your regular weapon, you're, not
going to be used to the recoil of a real gun, an you're, going to have more courage, because it's only going against paint and wall that, while there's, some small piece of truth to that. Just like there's, some small teach, the truth to the fact that if you never think about what it's like to be punched, a while you're doing jujitsu. Well, then it's going to be a surprise. For the first time you you are in guard with someone they crack you in the face. There's some small true through, but it's not a reason to throw out. You know that type of training- it just doesn't make sense, and the other thing that's good about it is you know in Jujitsu, which I'm boxing and wrestling you're going live against another human being, that's maneuvering on you and trying to defeat you when you have paint laser you're going against another
human being, that's trying to maneuver on you and defeat you so therefore, it's very effective in teaching what real combat going to be like what was it like? The first time you were deployed and when was that the first time was deployed in two thousand and three an deployed to Baghdad, Iraq, and it was great that's not what most people would think of. It would never think of that. That word it's very it. What interesting about my first deployment to Iraq. Was that again I was so happy to be in a position where I was opportune commander and we were doing real missions and I was excited and happy about that. And you know that doesn't mean those run around a smile on my face and we had a legit job and we had to get it done it also a time where the the insurgents there wasn't an insert yeah. We don't even really heard that word in two thousand and three and
so the operations that we did were relatively simple and r tactical advantage over the enemy was good enough that we just uh NYHA lated them. You know it was like it was like an unfair fight, which is how you want it to be. You want to have an unfair fight income, so we go in you know, o'clock in the morning we find out what a bad guy was in some house or some officer some building and we load more vehicles and go in all the night blast the door open with big explosive, breaching charge clear their house in about thirty seconds, grab them grab their buddies, bring them all back Interrogate him find out where their friends are and go out and do it again and it was awesome, it was awesome. It was rockstar deployment. We come home at three hundred o'clock in the morning and be done an debrief the operation and get ready to do it. The next day, you probably were in four or five firefights during that whole deployment,
couple Ma'Am bushes and I had one guy get get Woon did not very bad, so was it was. It was fun. It was good and we were ready for and when the contrast comes, when you go to my next appointment, the next deployment to Ramadi, which was completely different so and on that deployment, everything bad that can happen to a guy in a leadership position or it element happened to us everything, bad that could happen happened, and so it was the worst radically different than my first deployment. So your first deployment was
in a sense, a lot like what people expected the war to go like after we had experienced desert storm desert storm, which was just it's overwhelming success, just the only Casualties were when that one scud missile had hit a barracks, and it was just that is what America thought. War was like. Well, this is how good we are at it right now. We just go over there and we kill everybody and we lose a couple people and real sad about that, but we wrapped it up tight. So your second deployment. What was that like and how did it begin
well. It began with our deployment orders changing. So we were literally two weeks from going on deployment. So now my first deployment to Iraq, I was what's called a platoon commander. I had fifteen or twenty guys underneath May, depending on what time during the deployment was an. We were an assault force. We were like, we jokingly called ourselves Baghdad Swat, because that's what we do just kind of describe what those missions were. Like my second deployment now I was what's called a task unit commander and I had two of those seal platoons with fifteen to twenty guys that were underneath me, and then we had another seventy sixty or seventy support personnel. So these are people that do in tell people that man, the radios, people that clean in repair our weapons and people that key the camp running all that. So it's it's it's about, under guys, but there's only thirty five or forty seals,
and we found out about two weeks before we went on deployment our deployment changed going to Baghdad and really doing more. Really that's what operations we went. We were told we were going to Ramadi and I was again. And people always say you know, I can't believe you thought that and I can't believe how twisted you are now. I can't believe what I say: individual you are and etc, etc, etc. But, yes, I was extremely happy and motivated that we were going to Marty because it was the worst place in Iraq, and that is exactly where I wanted to be my whole life. So, yes, I was fired up to go there, just crazy that I mean it's so counterintuitive the way most people think I guess so, and I hung around with a bunch of guys that thought the same. Damn thing as me: let's go get these guys, let's get after it. Well, that's why you are who you are? I mean that's what that's why it's important to have people like you in the world they did just like it is a spectrum of human beings. There is uh
review manure on the extreme edge of exactly what you want when you have an army, if you put together a military force, you want to like you that has that attitude. You don't want a guy who's going to the worst place in the world, saying. Why main what the fuck? Why didn't? I I'm a baker like my dad, I could be making cup yes right now. Instead, I'm shooting people yeah yeah. I know you and seal teams and the Rangers and the special forces does a very good job of of attracting the type of people that you're talking about the type of people that are fired, to do that job and could not encouraging it in growing it like, like the it seems like the amount of camaraderie and the
density of the friendships and the bond. The brotherhood that you develop with those people just intensifies at all, yeah, it's a big gang. It's a big big awesome gang that you're a part of that's bad, ass and you're part of this fraternity. This brotherhood so yeah. It made in the fuel the fire in, and I should say, agency they fuel the fire. We fuel the fire, we're we are the fire. You know the guys that are there, the guys that I work with their their the fired up, guys that are completely ready to do this job, so you get over there you're in Ramadi, totally different situation than bang. That totally different situation in Baghdad immediately realize this immediately
we were going. I mean, I think I think we went to the first memorial service for an American within you know, twenty four hours of being on the ground there. We might. My big, my camp got attacked the I don't know, maybe the third or fourth night, that we were there. Every guy was on the roof of our building shooting back at bad guys that were shooting at us. It was and then, and we started conducting operations almost immediately and the operations were just just radically different. I mean the enemy owned, the downtown area of Ahmadi, they they, the dominant force down there. So, whereas before you begin through kind of semi permissive environment in Baghdad, meaning you know
so it's a bunch of civilians and they just want to get out of your way. And then you go and find this bad guy. Well, in Ramadi the bad guys were going to find you and it was different and they were everywhere they were. Who would train them? You know some of them were former regime elements so but some of them were you know, Ramadi was iraqi military city as well, so there are some of them. Leftover well, actually, a bunch of them leftover and then you had Syrians coming in foreign fighters. People coming in from all over Saudi Arabia? Jordan, I mean they'd come in from all over the place to come and engage and get their jihad on. Really motivated because America was now occupying iraq- is that what was was driving them I think more than the fact that that America was occupying track is that they wanted to take that land. I mean
America was no longer occupying Iraq when they went in and took Ramadi. This time we were gone. We've been gone for four years, so the occupation of Iraq was not the driving force behind this. So once you get there once you realize right away, it's different you're experiencing casualties at a level that was unheard of in Baghdad and you or engaging with an enemy? That's very prepared an overwhelming there everywhere and they did they were similar to us, meaning they did like first world country type stuff. They had met medical evacuation plans or one of their guys would get Woon. Did you see him get evacuated? You could watch on on the screens. You could watch what was happening, a vehicle Carmen and gathered them up and take wanted guys away. They bring in reinforcements. They had communications, they did fire Hoover. They did. You know the same
basic tactics that I was talking about. They did those tactics as well, and so it was a real, well trained and well coordinated men, determined enemy was this expected? Well, we we knew what Ramadi was like, but I would say it was expected, but he it's hard to mentally picture. What that's going to be like when you, when you're, going to go up against guys that are that prepared. So this was tactically, and as far as like that, the strategy that was involved to try to take a city like that, this a fairly new experience for the United States military right. We never what other be another. What Somalia, like what other herb in war had the United States engaged in like this, where you're in a city? Well, I mean obviously World war, two had all kinds of in conflict and in Vietnam there was portions. You know the
waste waste city was a huge urban conflict. Somalia was definitely urban, combat but you're right in the fact that we weren't going in there to try and stay, and that was one of the biggest differences or changes in strategies that the US military had that turn the war around, and that was as the as the insurgents grew and his two thousand four two thousand and five, the insurgent started, getting more and more unified and better and or well trained and more organized and America. What we did was kind of go back to our strong basis, so there's bases you gotta, understand this in Iraq, two thousand and five, two thousand and six. If you went to a base in let's say Baghdad, International airport there's a huge US military base. There was
subway the sandwich shop, Subway Starbucks, these places to become little little outcroppings of America, and so what we did when the insurgency got worse and worse and worse, and also the public appeal, yeah the war went down and down and down and all of a sudden whenever we were not going to. I'm going to minimize casualties as much as possible. So what does that mean? You do you go back to your base and we did that country, we kind of said: ok, we're not going to take huge risks anymore. We're going to pull back to our base. Is we're going to try and support the Iraqis as much as we can and let them go out and trying applications and we still did do missions, but we definitely had strong move back to these big bases. Well,. There was a guy. There were several people and one of them was general Patrias. He wrote this you know the counterinsurgency manual is now now what you had was you went from this idea of we're fighting kind of terrorists and almost
we're fighting an organized insurgency, and that was a huge strategic shift, and so now instead of going out and grab it and then coming back. The new strategy it, was implemented in Ramadi by a guy named colonel Mcfarland these clear, hold and build, which means go into these enemy, controlled neighborhoods you're, going to take buildings you're going to hold those buildings you're going to build them into your own for and you're going to have. American and iraqi soldiers live in those enemy, controlled territories until the enemy was gone, that ever been implemented before it had been implemented in town. Far in northern Iraq by a guy named Hc Mcmaster was another kind of legendary military army colonel. At the time. These guys are generals now they're awesome, guys he'd implemented up there.
It actually turned that plan over to Gentle Mcfarland and Jenna Macfarlane came down to Ramadi and implemented the plan there. But what was What was hard to understand is no one really knew about this. No one understood it. All day all they said was: oh, my god wait. A second you we're going to go into these enemy, controlled neighborhoods, where, where there haven't been american or coalition forces for a year year and a half two years, you're saying we're going there right before we arrived in. There was a road that the Marine Corps tried penetrate down the hit, thirteen 90s and five hundred meters, so thirteen dies in five hundred mycfo solace, Actually, what is five hundred meters is like every fifty meters or so little less than fifty meters. What is that in football fields? I'm five foot five football fields, that's insane. It is wow
So do so this new strategy to go in there and push in there was considered to be by many people was considered to be too risky, too dangerous and room and really in some cases, crazy, like this is a crazy, The strategy we haven't been able to get down there and now you're, saying we're gonna go down there and live there, so it was is very dynamic change. So this is a gigantic gritty. Boots on the ground approach to taking over a city like one. Step at a time, one building at a time. That's it wow, but then how to be insane yeah, yes or any documentary footage of this, where there any embedded journalists there were there embedded journalists. You know you can go on Youtube. Is Google Ramadi, two thousand and six and you'll see some good stuff. There is a documentary that came out. I think it was on the history channel
It's called a chance in Hell the battle for Ramadi and that, what's good about that, one Is it interviews a lot of guys that we worked with while we were there in what I was? trying to convey to you about the fact that a lot of people were saying this was a suicidal operation. You can hear these guys that were officers in charge of Italians in companies, they're saying the same thing, they're they're, getting told by their peers like this is a crazy idea and you guys are all going to die if you go in there wow now. What is morale like when something like that gets brought down when these are the orders? And this is what you have to do- an F ones, telling you it's a suicide mission. Well, that's where leadership comes in because you one of the one of the toughest things that I ever had to convey to. My guys was this fact that we were going to be working alongside iraqi soldiers, conventional iraqi soldiers. So you picture this. We all that first appointment I talked about
we were, we were only working with seals, I mean we were seals. The guide you're left with able you're right was a seal. The guy behind you was a seal. The can trust to trust you could to trust him. You knew him, they were. They were your brothers now we get to Ramadi, and the mission changed coming down from the special operations forces that were in charge of all special operations in Iraq, and the new new mission was two. It with a new mission. I'm trying to think of the exact was too train and fight company, an platoon sized elements of iraqi soldiers, train and fight company in platoon sized elements of iraqi children when they fight. That means, like that's a verb, saying we're going to fight with them So, all of a sudden, I'm telling my guys- hey, you know you used to work with a bunch of seals. You're going to now, when you go out, majority of the guys are going to be with our iraqi soldiers. That's the majority of guys. Now, iraqi,
soldiers are there: barely even military, I mean people there just unloaded poorly trained in In many cases, their loyalty is questionable. I mean these are guys that would shoot Americans in the back. So now I'm telling my guys, ok you're, going to go out there and do this an off. Usually the first reaction I got: was this crap this garbage? Why would we ever do that? This is the worst battlefield seals have fought on since Vietnam and you to go out there with a bunch of a bunch iraqi soldiers watching her back. That's crazy, and when I heard it, I thought it was crazy too. So what do you do then?
What what do you do then you're going to send your guys into harm's way in a much more vulnerable way and you got to get them to do it. So, first of all, I had to understand what we're doing In my own mind, I had to understand why I understand: why would somebody be telling us to do this 'cause? It seems freaking crazy to me. So, as I sat there and thought about it. I realize you ok, why is why is the present making Do this, why is the general? Why is the Pentagon making us do this? Why are the generals and colonels on the battlefield here in Iraq? Why, in God's name, would they be making us go out with iraqi soldiers? It's crazy and then I thought to myself: wow! Ok, why? Let's answer that question? Oh newsflash! If we don't do it, if we don't get the iraqi soldiers trained, uh an ready to maintain the security in their own country, then who's going to do it who's going to do it, who's going to train them and, furthermore, who's going to hold
security in our country, and the answer was nobody in the answer was us. The answer was we would be here forever. Is these Iraqis need to be able to get up and stand on their own two feet and When I explain that to my guys, but hey I know you don't want to work with iraqi soldiers. I understand I understand, there's more risk, here's why we're doing it we're doing it, because if we don't do it, if we don't get these guys up to speed, if we don't teach them how to defend themselves and how to defeat this enemy. They're never going to be able to do it and will be mired in this conflict forever and once once they stood that strategic picture, they were able to get their head around. And then slowly accepted what we were doing, how common were there complications dealing with the iraqi soldiers and did you guys have to take steps in order to watch over them? To make sure I mean you talking about guys, shooting guys in the back shooting Americans in the back. Did you have plans input
base to make sure that someone was watching them at all times, yeah yeah, so you didn't you couldn't treat them like. Did they speak English? No, we had interpreters and oh yeah, it's a nightmare and we would have some of the Mackie soldiers- some of some of the leadership of the iraqi soldiers- would be very good. Some of the grunts would be very good and some would be just disastrous, and if we have to change they didn't we had to change our tax. Fix so that we didn't use the terms left and right because they didn't understand left, and or or no numbers a lot of and can count. I mean it was they couldn't count yeah yeah, so the total damage could totally on it. Wow can't count holy, go, go four doors down, mmhm, I'm some you get to a five year old. Yes, what oh yeah, so that was definitely challenging. I think you're allowed to call them savages when they can count
this is not the rule. If you don't count on for, I reserve, I reserve the term savage for somebody that car Ansel commitments. You know atrocities against human beings. You know somebody that rapes an eight year old girl, like they're, doing holes, will do in that. Isis is doing that right now, that's part of their gig yeah. I reserve the term savages for them. So what steps did you guys have to take? To ensure that the seals and the other american soldiers were protected in working with these people, I mean just had to keep your eye on him. I mean in honestly, at this point the You saw this this happen, a lot more Afghanistan, which was the what they called they called. I forget what they have a term for it, but when the friendly, allegedly friendly afghan soldier turns and shoots over in the back. That happened,
or later in Afghanistan, and when we were in Iraq, it was pretty seldom that it happened, but we just had to be aware of it and we had you had a guy that was like just outstanding off the firing line and making sure that no one was, you know, pull in there open out and aiming at Americans. So that was a job yeah. We just gotta keep an eye on these guys you absolutely have to pronounce. It was a crazy added element and the other and just again 'cause, there's dichotomy and everything. At the same time, you have some guy. That was, you know some lucky soldier that was willing to take a bullet for your body, and so it's the what makes war so complex and confusing. Is it's not cut and dry and it never is so how did it start panning out once you started, this sees, sees clear, clear, hold and build. It was a tough fight basic with every one of these combat outpost. We ended up what they ended up. And these combat outposts, everyone of them was a pretty a pretty tough fight to their fight, their buildings
Their opponent, combat output, combat up what kind of the ten stories of how many stories of these buildings most of them were two or three stories, two or three praise, and so you said, perimeter around the building, key people stationed in them guns, at the windows looking out constantly and it would be, we take the building down and then and they would do a massive construction project in the middle of a combat zone. So these army engineers, God bless 'em, all would hold down there with their bulldozers and there they put these big, concrete barriers up and they put sandbags and all the windows and they build machine gun nests. On top and again we're doing this in the middle of like mayhem, wow and then have the secure combat outpost and while they were doing that, this is sort of was our our addition to type of operation was wall They were doing this big construction progress project. Obviously, the situation was very vulnerable for the american forces, and so what we would do is, I would are seals out into perimeter
buildings that were maybe a two hundred or three hundred yards away, and so when the enemy would come to attack, we kill him what crazy scene that must have been to be taking these buildings and then reinforcing eminent turning them into military bases and then one after others. You doing this to yeah? It was. It was an awesome effort and I think, a good number we put in one combat outpost and there was the army engineers put. Thirty thousand sandbags in why in combat outpost, sixty three buildings, just all things, a lot of sand out there note about it, no doubt about it, now and so how many buildings did you guys wind up taking over? All? Probably it probably a total of like ten, combat outpost, each one having to three or four buildings and again let clarify when I say we I'm talking about this massive effort of the one one td, which is the the first Brigade armored division and all the but
aliens that were underneath them, including one marine corps battalion and the I'm pointing that out. Joe is those guys are just on believable heroes. They really were. They were awesome. You choked up yeah. These guys were these guys were awesome. They really were yeah. I can only imagine the emotional attachment that you have to that. Yeah- and you know that you know you can look you- can google Navy seals and find you twenty million news stories about him? That's great but these guys, you know to have seen them kids. You know, because you know you're talking about earlier how
the seals. You know guys like me. This is what we want to do. Well, these guys didn't all necessarily have that attitude and as a matter of check the guys that were in Ramadi with us, when we first got there, they were reserve unit out of Pennsylvania, the two hundred and twenty eight iron soldiers. They were reservist. These guys were teachers that, like what you see when they talk about these reserves, these guys were teachers and professors, and you know, bakers and, they had real jobs and real world and want to get home to their family, and yet they were there grinding it out against a hard and enemy. And so yeah. It's it's it's it's a crazy thing to see, and it's very humbling to be around people like that. It really is: How long did this battle go on the battle for Ramada well we got there like, I said the two hundred and twenty eight had been there for forty months?
Fourteen months on the ground last around one hundred guys, I think ninety four and then the one one ad came in in May and implemented. Sees clear hold and build, and by the time what I left October, two first, two thousand and six and by the by January of two thousand and seven the battle was for most for the most part over and these eh attacks had been when we were there. Thirty to fifty a day went down to like one today and then one week and then one a month and an event you know I have pic. As of probably about six to nine months after we left, we got pictures the guy sent back to us of they were running road races down the worst. What were, the worst areas or they were playing soccer games. There was people out in the streets, there was seals or not seals, but
soldiers with no body armor on just walking around meeting people. It was a it was a miraculous turnaround and the peep over Marty that we had fought to support and help were joyous and were they had a stable city to live in and were ready to carry on with their lives, see, I think so movies like this get left out of the his dream. Narrative. Of course they do. They mow people me included. Just don't know about it. Aren't aware of it have a very insulated idea of what this war was. Uh about what happened over there and what are the pros and cons of this war? What are the frozen cons of taking a do you like this and turning it into a relatively safe place relatively, it was definitely a safe
There was less murders there than there is in Detroit. While I mean it was, it was a complete turnaround and again you do that. You can do that because the people there wanted to be stable, they wanted that they wanted peace and they wanted freedom and then one of the insurgents out I absolutely wanted the insurgents out. Do you think that most people in America have a distorted perception of them? military in general, an of the Iraq war in particular. I think it, hard for me to give a perspective of what civilians think you know it's very Foucault, because you know it's really easy to slip into like just a straight John J Rambo. You know there are no friendly civilians. It's really easy to get there, but it definitely when I hear Various people talking and you go? This person has no idea. This person is no idea the it's weird, because they'll clump, the p,
full of Iraq, they'll clump those people together as a group, and it's the wrong. They have the wrong impression with those people are like. You know guys I've been to Iraq and have gone into houses and talk to the local populace there and broke bread with them and drink their t you're like oh, that these people, these people definitely wanted us there like I hear this thing about. You know that they didn't want us there and we're occupying said. Oh no, there was there was times we'd, kill an insurgent and they would cheer they would cheer like. Thank you thank for killing that person. He was a terrorist and he was you know trying to trying to rape my daughter they were happy. We were there. What is Ramadi like now overrun by ISIS there,
I'm saying now that there's going to be an effort by the iraqi military to take it back, and God bless him and good luck. They would have to do the exact same thing. They're going to do the exact same thing. It's going to be it's going to be tough screen right off and without the it states military force, backing them up and leading something like that. Do you think that's even possible. It's going to be difficult, it is possible, but it is absolutely going to be difficult. It can be very difficult. That's one of the things that again, you know and leadership. Leadership is such an important thing. It's such an important thing. Is it really does change hi changes every variable in a situation, and so when you have good leaders, you can win, and I don't know who
particular is in charge of this iraqi force. That's going in there the Iraqis have some very strong leadership and if they've got the right person in position, they will be able to take it back now. America absolutely has incredible military leaders. Some incredible mill and when you, when you have to step up and lead of anisole like that on a city I mean american leadership, would be would absolutely make on the ground. Do you think that America should go back into Iraq? Well, first of all we're already back in Iraq we're on the ground. We got thirty five hundred ships there. This is a and I hate to answer your blunt question with a philosophical answer, but
war, is very difficult and very tragic and very evil in its own right, and so you should be very, very cautious about pulling that trigger and initiating a war, because horrible things are going to happen. Horrible things are going to happen and we are going to friendly are going to be killed. Americans are going to be killed, civilians are going to be killed. This idea that we're going to go into a Warren and environment and we're not going to kill any civilians. No civilians are going to die and you have to understand that- and I talk about this when people ask me this question there is
two types of will that you have to have if you're going to go to war, two types of will one is the will to kill people and, like I said, it's going to be enemy and you're going to folk as much as you can on killing the enemy. In some civilians are going to die. That is what is going to happen and you have to understand that that is part of what you are getting into so you have to have. You have to have the will to kill and you also have to have the will to die because Americans are going. Die and young men are going to come home in coffins and that's a horrible thing,
and so, if you're going to go to war, you should be going to war with a clear vision to win to win, and I say If we have the will and we have a plan on on winning, then we should. We should execute that plan. But if we're hesitant- and if we don't have the will, then we should stand by on so we developed that will and we can sit outside and we can shape and we can. We can try and shape events which we should. We should have a leadership role in the world. We should be looking out for american interests. I know that sounds like taboo language in this day and age, but we're America and
look out for american interests around the world. That's what we should be doing and there's nothing wrong with that. That's what other countries are doing, they're looking for their interests and when, when we're looking out for our own interests, there balance and things can move forward. So do you think right now the limited amount of troops that are in Iraq. It's you said three thousand five hundred now at what was it at the height I don't over. One hundred thousand I mean at the height is probably even close to two hundred thousand. What would it take to develop that will that you talk of? Do you think that the United States needs to see some other Paris? Like event, I mean we already had September 11th, they killed three thousand of our people on our
soil? But that was fourteen years ago and for a lot of people that might as well be another world. True true, I. I got gotta ask the other day about the warning signs. You know are who paying enough attention to the warning signs warning? Are there enough warning signs warning signs, and I I just I kind of shake my head. I mean what more warning signs do you need then go to watch. Youtube videos and they're, like we are coming to kill you. We are going to destroy you all that that's the warning right. There warning has been issued standby for people like me. They are completely on the outside of the military it seems like This came out of nowhere. It seems like once Arabs Spring started happening. We started pulling out of Iraq.
Also new start hearing about the I S, L or ISIL, or ISIS they're used. They use the term I si, which was which was I saw islamic state Iraq, they use that and I think two thousand and seven was the first time they use that as they started to take we are over in Syria. They, through the l on the end of it. You know which is love on, which is the historical name for that that region and the other one is Syria, the is so the it's the same people. It's the same people that were there and will continue to be there until we're out him out. When I was anything I was that it was something than anybody here had heard about as an organized thing we had, we had heard about insurgents in Iraq, but we had never heard of it in the in the leg, with a name like I Isis now that it's a name it's like an identifiable enemy and when you're in a war against terrorism, one of the things that I think kind of freaks
Americans out, especially those that don't have a connection with the military. Is this idea of a war against terrorism. Is this open ended, proposition? There's no enemy! You know like the there's? No there's no definitive end to this, like when Japan surrendered were or two was over. People are kissing in the streets that iconic image. Of the sailor kissing his girlfriend in the street that that none of that happened for us. In this country there was definitive ending and when we've pulled out of Iraq and we're planning on pulling out of Afghanistan, and then we see ISIS build up and get big in stronger and scarier, and we see what happened in Paris and we see what happened in Lebanon and in Nigeria, and we see these terrorist attacks were like well. When is this? Is there ever going to be a point where we have uh
Roger and his girlfriend kissing in the street. Is there going to be an end? Is there going to be confetti blowing in the main street in a parade doesn't seem like it. I would say that that's an accurate assessment that it doesn't seem like it, yeah, We got a long fight, you know, and you asked we know. Where did ISIS? How do we start hearing about him? Well, the same thing we were talking about earlier social media. You know, they've got social media there aiming it at D enchanted people all around the world that can cling onto something that will give them some sort of identity. Yeah. That's one of the most bizarre things about this. When you see people like these young girls from the UK joining ISIS, and you know there are escaping their country and going. There in joining ISIS like what what is happening here like how disenchanted do you have to be, or that looks a tree
active to you yeah, the two girls, I'm sure you saw this and there's two poster girls for ISIS. One of them died three to six months ago and they just got the latest report on the other one that was trying to escape ISIS and they beat her to death. Yeah the Immediate unquestionably, it seems to be a growing force in a more dangerous force every day I got again, I think on twitter, someone hit me the other day on Twitter. You know this is an idea and you can't bomb ideas was the was the statement to me:
and you know I try and avoid like getting into these massive sort of political debates or whatever, especially with one hundred and forty characters yeah, and that being said, Nazism. It was an idea that was defeated through military force. Slavery in America was an idea that was defeated by military force, Imperial Japan was an idea and a religion that was defeated by military force, and none of those ideas would have stopped without military force, and this is an idea that can be he did with bombs, and this is also an idea that, unfortunately, in this country gets connected to all Muslims. The idea behind what these people are do are doing gets. Connected to all Muslims when, in reality MO
for the Muslims in the world, they don't want something like. I just to be in control? They don't want to be in a perpetual state of war. They don't, don't have to worry about these quote, unquote savages and what they're doing yeah I mean the ISIS is killed, hundreds of thousands of well, I don't know, I don't know what the numbers, but we know that ISIS has killed. Thousands and thousands and thousands of Muslims. You know they went into Ramadi and killed. Hundreds in did the Muslims that had worked in. Away with the coalition forces so that they could have a peaceful city they murdered them all. So, let's say Donald Trump becomes president, and he listened to your podcast with TIM Ferriss, and you read your book and he goes Jocko. I'm coming to you for advice. Why Do I do I don't know why I said Donald Trump for President I'm hoping that's our own ISIS, let's, whatever fill in the blank new president purse,
Ratty comes notice, nose, said person, I didn't even go with woman or man. What would you do if you were? If you were in a leadership position? If you are in a position to make a decision or to start a process? What would you do? We would destroy them? You just go right back and we would destroy them. And you think that that's what America should do right now. Yes, yes, it is a cancer that is growing, it is malignant and it needs to be destroyed. So what steps would you take like? What would you do if you were in a position of power right now? You know it's interesting people get this idea that this is some crazy, complex situation, and it's going to be all
hard and all this I could pull together like two first lieutenants from the marine core, which is like the junior officer in the marine core and say, come up with a plan to defeat ISIS, you got two hours and they do it and would be a good plan. This is not a complex situation. How many people you dealing with when you talking about ISIS? I don't know twenty thousand ten thousand four thousand one hundred thousand stuff to tell it yeah, it's tough. To tell it doesn't matter! You assess it, you make you bring what you need to the table and you feed him. So what do you think is holding back from us doing? Something like I have no idea Is it frustrating to you? Yes, because if you got kids, can you see the again a malignant cancer on humanity that is growing unchecked when we have we're, like the master surgeons that
the ability to go in and eradicate this disease, and instead of doing that, we're just we're just not doing anything, so do you blame this? The current ministration. Do you blame the climate of the american public? now the political climate where people just don't want to be involved in another war or enter into a the prolonged interaction. I think People are always looking for. The easiest way out and going in is a hard decision to make it's a very hard decision to make and it's be very unpopular decision, and it would be the short term pain that everyone's afraid of that's what of things. That's so disconcerting to me about drones. 'cause, it seems to me that drones are is a way that we can avoid american casualties. So people don't complain about it as much so we send this robot in there to
fly in and then launch missiles and the good thing is, it doesn't create american casualties. But the bad thing is doesn't seem to be nearly as affective it's like sort of a, wishy washy attempt in some ways at war it seems almost like it would be something that would you would use in a supplement as well as a military attack like there would be a part of it. Instead of being the only thing that you use to try to combat these people. Does that make sense? I don't know if we have enough drones to get the job done and their affective, but I mean a drone is going to take out. I don't know two thousand and twenty bad guys, so there be a lot of drones in action. I don't know if we have that kind of capability, yet But we will someday, you will someday we'll, have a robot army and will be dealing with some terminator type situation right, yes, but right now it,
It's almost like. We need to get smacked like something needs to happen before we hit back, and I cannot in good conscience, agree with. I don't want to say those words yeah. You know it's just a whore Before I don't want to put it out so horrible thought yeah, it's a horrible thought, especially when you start talking about a dirty bomb yeah, you know and like oh here's, a sector of America that no one can live in anymore because it's been contaminated, it's radioactive now mean that's real and again. And for some reason the warning signs which can be seen. You know anywhere, you look we're ignoring them. I think people and for myself and speaking for the people that I come in contact with, I think people are becoming more and more concerned about ISIS on a pretty much daily basis. I think one
and the Paris did do. Is it woke a lot of people up as to possibilities that something like this can happen and that this isn't the end and this is ramping up and if they have the kind of resources to pull off something like the Paris attacks? Who knows where this is going totally agree with you? It is a very scary time what do you think is going to happen if you had a gas? What do I think is going happen in terms of a terrorist attack in America. Know know in terms of our approach to dealing with something like ISIS yeah. I think it's very difficult to predict the future, but not not to be a just a big cop out over here. I'm not trying to do that to you, but there so many different ways that this could go, and you know, are you from Russia into the mix because they
down the russian airline. You got a guy like Putin, who is a gangster. You know an. I say that in both contexts of of negative and positive I mean the guy is in the negative way he's a gangster. That's like scary, with his thought process and the same time like props, the guys, a gangster, and he is going to smash some people. You've got turkey in the mix. I mean it's just a very it's a comp situation, that's getting more complex all the time and this various part about it is that America is now in a leadership position. We are not influencing the world the way we once did. We are not people not looking to us as the as the leaders. There were in the back seat and that's a scary. We should be in a leadership position. There is nothing wrong with that is not bad to have up
benevolent country, and I I know people are going to go crazy, but a generally benevolent country, that's sitting here. You know even billions of dollars of aid around the world, never taking any soil, and captain I mean we've. I guess in modern times, we've never taken any soil and kept it we've given germ go back to Jeremy, we gave Japan back to Japan. You know, we've we're a fairly benevolent. Again. I know we've got faults. I know we've done things wrong in the past. I'm sure will do things wrong in the future but Have us not in a lead. Ship position is a very disturbing and when you say that we're not a leadership position, what do you think the shift is, and where do you think it happened?. I think it's been happening, and I think you know I think the current administration is definitely not as experience
as you would hope, and I think there's a lot of a lot of naive attitudes about what the rest of the world is like. Sold this administration, you think, was the beginning of the shift away from America being in a leadership position. Yes, what do you? What kind of a president do you think, would change that. Somebody that has a better understanding of the nature of the world like a John Mccain type guy yeah, maybe like a like like and you know again, I'm not to sit here and trying to think of who the best presidential candidate would be. I mean we have, hard time figuring that out in America as a whole. But again you look at a guy like you look at a guy like Cute and you look at a guy, like Obama Putains, whole existence has been geared towards this. You know uh,
the KGB guy I mean, he's been a player on the world stage in a part of it for his whole life and he's got an acute understanding of it and he's a black belt. You know he's a legit black belt, and you just see these other. You see the the the naivete of of this administration and it's it's it's really hard to it's it's hard to understand. It was one thing that Obama said it was yesterday or today that just drove me crazy. He was talking about the attack, on planned parenthood in Colorado Springs, and he said things like this don't happen in other countries like how the fuck do you say that just days after what happened in Paris, I was reading that just today before we started the podcast I was reading it. I was like. That is why the craziest things that someone could say after hundreds of people were killed in Paris. 'cause he's talking about it in terms of gun, violence from a religious perspective that what the fuck
happened in Paris what it because it's not about babies, it's different. Like yeah, I mean he said something. The other day too was I'm not interested some notion of America leading and winning. What is a man? Exactly? That's yeah, it's very it's just it's and it's it's a very disturbing. What does that mean? That's what would What did anybody ask him to qualify that or now it's one of eating spans kind of speaking and yeah that weird statement for the guy? Who is the commander in chief, the greatest army, the world's ever known interested stay number one, not, I think the concept of a benevolent Lee, the of a benevolent nation. You know that if you, if do
and see that the world we're always being chaos, and there will always be, at least in terms of like the foreseeable future. In the next one hundred years or whatever, were until something Crazy happens. I mean it would have to be something monumental: life changing that stop conflict all around the world you have to. If you are rational, pragmatic person, you looking at the future, you have to say well we're going to have conflict specially. If you look at places like Congo or you know, parts of the Middle EAST. Where people don't count and is this is where you would have to educate them to the point where the future, would look radically different than the present right. So, if that's the case, if the conflict will be something that we're going to have to mitigate no matter. What, wouldn't you want, the the one that gets to decide? Wouldn't you want to the person in the position of power? Yes, you would be.
Is a much smaller scale, but this is what I've always tried to tell people when they say Why would you want to learn martial arts and what I always say is I don't want to learn martial arts 'cause. You want to beat somebody up. You want to martial arts for two things: one, because you learn how to overcome incredibly difficult things and in martial arts you're going to encounter times where you want to quit. You're going to get your ass kicked it's going to be difficult and it's extremely difficult to get good at it too. You do get into a situation. You want to either one who gets to choose whether or not someone gets hurt. You don't want to be helpless, 'cause being help us is a terrible place. But it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to go out and fuck people up and that's
or the same idea on a macro scale. You would look at the concept of America being a benevolent entity or benevolent superpower. Absolutely one hundred percent right. You know I mean. You know it goes with everything that we do and when I say we I'm talking about you know you train you workout, you try Strong. You keep your self aware of what's happening, it's not because you want to go around kicking peoples asses it's because you don't want to have to kick anyones ass people are not low. Joe Rogan be like going to beat him up right now, they're going out that guy, I know he trains all the time and it's in your face, they're going to know that immediately, you know that when you can tell you can by the way someone carries themselves what you know what they
out of the what they know what they understand. I you know I got asked the other day. If you were president, you ask me if I was got advice. They said. If you were president, what would you do if isis- and I said if I was president isis- would not exist jocko? They would not exist because. We would have a presence in the world that would prevent the growth of this kind of ideology, but what kind of a reaction do you think you would have from the american public from the insulated american public, probably one of the most sensitive times ever in terms of what they do? if they throw around the term Islamophobia few, even criticize anyone that just had is to be muslim, mean we're in a strange time when it comes to credibly sensitive, maybe hypersensitive people that maybe don't have a good grip on reality. Well, would you
take him over there and buses yeah that one thing I'd be there we go. It's interesting because I've already talked about this Islamophobia. I mean I fought alongside these Muslims. I fought alongside them to help them. My friends did, and America did. We fought alongside these people to try and help them, and we did so how that gets twisted in some world to where you know we're not where evil is completely beyond me. I think because there is legit Islamophobia out there in the world. Just like there's a there's. A legit hatred of Chris Windsor is legit. Hatred of Mormons means you're going find groups of people that are hated and there's also people that aren't willing to look deeper deeper into Some some global issue
of a global issue that these people that call themselves ISIS or ISIL or whatever they call themselves- and you know they themselves, the islamic state. You know Islamo Islam's bad muslims- are bad. Muslims are evil. I was watching something there was a SAM Harris had posted up on twitter. There is this guy who is proposed believe it was in Virginia. He was at a like county one of those meetings where you're talking about building something in the town, and he was he was talking about putting up a mosque. These people were screaming at him that Muslims are evil and you're. Evil cult is not going to come into our town and you're, trying to invade our tab, get outta here with your evil cult and like ok, that's Islamophobia, that's right there when you're talking about a piece guy who just wants to be able to worship his. You know his ideas, his religion in peace,
this place, he wants to build a mosque and people wanted. You know they're furious at this guy. That's real Islamophobia right, but there's a big difference between something like that, an what's going on in other parts of the world with ISIS giant giant difference, and I think when people want to throw around that term Islamophobia, I think a lot of time. What they're doing is they're just trying to be correct, they're trying to be politically correct, so she correct the trying to be sensitive and they trying. Let everybody know that they're not racist, that they are not xenophobic, that they're not islamophobic or whatever they are open, minded and progressive, so they're throwing around these terms and it kind of clouds. The water ok I mean yeah. These are the
people are running around calling you know Islamophobia, I don't know. No one's ever called me that. Not yet I'm sure they will have ready today on Twitter yeah. I don't see it happening right now, yeah, I don't. I don't see. How could I don't see how they could do that? You know again yeah we we for alongside muslim people, we ate with them. We put our lives in their hands and they put their their lives in our hands, and you know, America and my friends were killed, trying to help them. So how I'm a person that could be called an Islamophobe ISTS is kind stretch. I think yeah well it rationally, but you're talking about people that aren't necessarily rational. Well, you know people paint their own layers onto things and make them into what they're not well. I think it's automatic of what's going on with our culture too. Is
these hyper sensitive over simplistic? I do is, and people that would say these things like this die don't have a real grip like you have of what it's like over there, and I don't anybody does other than people like you that have been over there and been in combat. I don't think it's possible, I think that's one of the forms that we have we're behaving like children in a lot of ways, because we really have never had to live on our own yeah and it's it's. It's actually very similar to what we talking about earlier with the traditional martial arts, where you sit there in your fantasy world and think that you're, she is going to protect you and that, as long as you spread love, you are going to be protected because your chi is strong. Anne until you've been in a fist fight you're going to leave
and so that's kind of what you're saying do we need to get spanked? Do we need to get to a fistfight before America realizes like? Oh, no, there's real problems in the world that need to be handled this one of the weirdest times every. But I haven't been in my act about this. Is the first time ever someone broke into the White House or if you know that two thousand and fourteen was the first time we gained access and there was a woman guarding the front door? Is unarmed woman guarding the front or in a woman who is in charge of secret service because diversity and one of my every parts there was an article written about when the guy knocked check over ran inside and they said was reviewed and gender wasn't an issue, ok, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Like you mean, if Brock Lesnar was open the door. The same thing would happen. The guy would have knocked him over and he would have no one would have ever caught the guy who just want to ran by and that's fucking ridiculous, but it's that same kind of crazy thinking, politically correct, asinine thinking. You should have a fucking team
going to make the president sleep in a house, that's in the park should probably have a team of fucking assassins, so browning that building at all times, and you keep a lookout for dudes that are sp coming across the lawn knocking over chicks regarding the front door. There's no doubt about it, but it's the same. It's like we're so soft we're so used to being in this insulated world that we have here this nice sweet bubble when we drive our eight mile per power or eight mile per gallon Suv's. I don't know how you would ever really illuminate all these problems that you're bringing up I don't know how you could get these into the Hand World WAR person like in world war, two you and me. If we were thirteen years old, we weren't old enough to serve. We still knew that there was a war going on 'cause. We couldn't eat like we couldn't use any metal, we were gardening. At night we were shutting off the lights like we were impacted. All of America was impacted at the height.
Of the battle Ramadi the height of it, at the height of the war of Iraq, at the height of war in Afghanistan, America, Americans at the mall, were not impacted at all at all at all, not only that they weren't even allowed to show photographs of coffins. So if the first time ever in the history, the United States, the history of the United States taking pictures during war, two where they made it illegal to show photos of coffins, which is just absolutely insane like how? How are you going to? Let people understand what's happening, you don't even allow journalists to show photographs of coffins. It's the it's. The people are talking about. The same connection, what made you decide to leave the military? Well,
a bunch of things I mean it wasn't like one day I woke up and said: alright, I'm done you know. Obviously, if, if you haven't caught this up to this point, I I loved, I love the seal teams yeah, I love being in the military. At the twenty year mark I had a bunch of different things that kind of weighed in you know. I had a family that I hadn't seen or didn't know pretty much. So you start thinking. Well, you know. Maybe I should attention them a little bit. I had complete did sort of my last real job operational, open, the seal teams and, It was going to be a long time before I was in command again of a seal team or something that was important in from a war fighting perspective that was kind of kind of other thing that I looked at, that was tough and and yeah. I just I guess I that's it. That's it really.
So what would you transition? How long ago did you begin to get out? I got out in twenty ten wow, so it's just five years five years and what was your transition? We started this company where we go and work with civilian companies doing leadership and management, and you know my buddy life that was talking about earlier was one of the platoon commanders. That was with me in Ramadi and you know he run into a company? I'd run into a company and they asked us to do some stuff and then next thing you know you know I gave one one leadership training to a company and then they said come back and train all of our divisions and then the parent company of that company watch me and said: hey. Can you come to our
ceo summit in and went to see some other than a bunch of those seo said? Hey can come in and next thing you know I'm doing this. So what? What is the? What is the process like when you're when you're doing these these speeches are you're setting things up? How do you organize them and what you you? Obviously your lifetime was in the military. So what was it about you in about what you brought to the table that was so attractive them. I think it's because the principles of leadership and that's where we do that we talk about and that's what we did his leadership. The principles of leadership do not change weather your weather. Your mission is to caps, kill bad guys or your mission is to manufacture something or sell something or produce something. You're. Trying to you got a group of people, group of individuals and they're, going to be diverse, they're going to be different, they're going to have different intellij. These levels are going to different personalities, are going to different goals. We have different motivations and you gotta take All those people and you know,
buy them and try and get them to accomplish a mission in the most effective and efficient manner and that's leadership, and it doesn't like ice that those principles that we used in combat don't change regardless of what the mission is and what what's good. You know- and I said this earlier life is like combat, but amplified and intensified, combat combat is like life, but fighting intensified in, and that means when, when we tell a story like a leadership story about combat it, it's so obvious what the what the, install was, whereas in the business world they might take six months or a year, or maybe you barely even notice what the failure was you know and when we sum but, when we make those stark examples from combat people go. Oh, I see how we're failing in this too, and that's that's why I think people really took hold of of what we did and how we put it across.
So this was something that you were approached to do. This wasn't like an idea that you have had, and you thought about that this will be my new saying yeah. I mean it re, regardless of like all this garbage the talk of my life and I always tell people to like plan be prepared. Yeah, I almost complete. He fell into this with the fact that someone said. Can you come and talk to my people about leadership, and I said well yeah I've been talking about leadership, for you know several years in the seal teams and I've been in a leadership position in some pretty. Tough situations, and you know that's just just happened now duty, The course or is this: this is like a one time, seminar type of a thing. We do both well so sometimes we go in. You know we will do like a keynote speech and those are good. Those are good. Those great you know we get a lot of positive feedback about those, but then somehow will go on with company and we've done like two year contracts with companies where we've trained everybody that they have and we
get all their leadership aligned on the same page and an will go in. You know, for maybe a couple assessment will look and see, will learn about what business there in will learn about what they're doing, how they're doing it we'll see what areas they can improve on will form made a plan around that and it will come back and will train leadership? That's fascinating, so you you have to kind of construct a course. Yes, yes, I mean the basic, like I said, basic principles are always the same, but some organizations have different problems than other organizations they all all have the same. You know fifty seven problems, you know whatever that number is. Some of them were really bad at this, or really good at this or they're failing here, but they're winning here. So we gotta go in check him out, so you would see what the issue is and then we get it turned around. Is it's rewarding for you do you doing we're doing this yeah. Absolutely I mean I I
well number one. I can talk about combat all day long, and I can talk about it even more than I can talk about leadership all day long because it's it's. It's it's the most challenging thing. The most challenging thing about in combat in a leader that position is now you know trying to fit what the enemy is going to do and trying to trying to organize a good plan. The most challenging thing is dealing with all these human beings that that's the challenging thing is getting these guys and girls to do do what they need to do? What you need them to do to get them to believe in it? That's what's challenging an we definitely learned lesson. Positive and negative. You know that's one thing about our book that people have got a lot of feedback is this book. I'm like hey, look what we did. Look how awesome we are. No. This book is a lot Those chapters in that book are hey. This is what we screwed up here, the failure that happened. This was horrible situation and it was my fault is
that's where we learn the lessons and I think that's what's made, people relate to it more 'cause. We're not just saying hey we're the greatest thing in the world know we were, we were humbled. I combat we were. We were humbled by the enemy. We were humbled by our own guys. That did amazing things when we were around, so I think that's a little bit different, and again I think that's one of the things that makes peep that appeals to the people. Is they look at this and then so I can relate to that. I can understand it. I've failed to I a mistake: how did they they did? This okay got it when you talk think about combat you're, talking about people, organizing and staying together and figure out how to lead you're talking about these extreme consequences, the most extreme. Ever when you have these extreme consequences Obviously, when there's a lot on the line, people are going to focus and some people are going to fall apart and some people are going to pull together but you're going to get people that understand the gravity of the situation it.
It seems to me that would be much harder due in part that into people in the business world amplified and intensified. So in combat lives are at stake absolutely in business world. Have you ever had a fire? Anyone before know it sucks? Have you ever had people lose their job and couldn't pay mortgage and feed their kids because you screwed up as a boss know: that's pressure. Have you ever lost, it's a millions of dollars worth of capital because you made a bad decision? No, but you know, because I'm not a leader see so there's good things and not being a leader? Is the bed fits of non leadership so You know when people ask me that question to ask that question all time, I'm like hey, it's, not a it's not about lives, but it's about livelihoods. Then you've got people that are relying on you to succeed and win and again sure you get killed in combat? That's obviously the worst thing that can happen, but if
lose your job or your people lose their I mean people kill themselves all the time when they make bad business decisions. It's that much pressure. It's that much pressure for sure, and so that's why it does translate, because business people relate to that how to pressure and they understand how it feels to to have that bearing down on them. It just see to me for a guy like you that maybe you'll be even more attracted to going into business. Then you would be to teaching people how to lead their business is better yeah and we are in bed. Business we do have so it is definite what we're doing That being said for me to now go into business. I'd have to learn some new business. Well, why not just the skills that I do have, which is you know. We know about leadership, so let's just help other people, and that is reward it's very rewarding, to talk to someone and have them go. I did what you told me to do, and this is the result. This is the outcome, that's very
rewarding and another piece of it is you know, everything always ties to me back to America. The the businesses in this country are the economic power of this nation. An our economic power, is the backbone of our authority in the world and sort of. Businesses, grow and achieve is is very rewarding, because I know that it's it's a very patriotic thing to Capitalism is a very patriotic piece of America. That's an interesting perspective. That's an interesting way to look at the big picture and I agree with you, I'm going to say, from the people hate me saying, but I'm gonna say it 'cause I need to say it to you. You should have a podcast people he's getting. Because I say this all the time to interesting guests, but this is not something that's difficult to do and you would be fucking great at it, and I think that your pay. Active on the military your per spect give on our our situation overseas? I think we
be very unusual, very unusual and very educated, and I just think this No one out there is doing it like, like you could do it. Well, we definitely I've you're, not! first person said this matter of fact when TIM Ferriss, like we got done with the podcasts, and he press stop on the thing, and he just looked up at me and said you need to do your own podcast it for him. I've talked to solidly I've talked, I've talked to some of my my buddies about it and where were working this is all you have to do. Man get a phone yeah, yeah press record, you know sit down. People, it's not hard to do. It's easy trust. Me know it's it's interesting too, and I'm I'm getting over. The fact of, like I told you earlier like like I said, on the TIM Ferriss Program, you know people though talk for no reason, it's hard for me to get used to the the fact that somebody wants to hear what I have to say. That's not you know a seal or you know, direct business person, but I
definitely you know I'll, probably end up doing something with it. Well, I think you know, great military leaders, whether it's Zach, will it sunsu the ART of war, whether it's me emotive, boo, Sashi from the book of five rings? Great warriors from the past have written books, but civilians have gotten a lot out of, and I think that someone like you instead of writing a book and your book, I'm sure, is great and I'm sure there's a lot of lessons in that, but on a daily basis to be able to do so like this anytime, you want just fire up. Your podcast anytime seems like Paris, like the Paris attack happens, you could give your perspective instantaneously, upload it onto the internet and it's just never been a time like that. It's one before that we could sit down and read what me I want to massage. She wrote hundreds of years ago mean it's amazing, it's interesting to try to
here into the mind of one of the greatest swordsman that ever lived and see his philosophy, he's on life, but I think that today, with the advent of the internet and with what the ability to broadcast yourself virtually instantaneously. I think you could make up gigantic impact active and taking those experiences that you have so well deserved and so earned Ann giving people this inside that there's just not going to get it, I'm getting it from you like. I said I got it from you from that TIM Ferriss episode and getting even more from you now it's a perspective. You just not going to get from someone who wasn't there, you just not going to get it you're going to get fuzzy, but you know you know it's what it's like to speak to people said you ever heard. Two people talk about martial arts, don't know about martial arts. You know that's
I like to hear someone like me: talk about the military, really yeah, it's again another thing that that is I'm. Sorting out in my own head, which is this idea of broadcasting myself each. It's just weird. I mean you grew up. You were into this. You know I think you've been a comedian for pretty much the whole adult life twenty six years, so twenty six years you were getting on stage. That's what you wanted to do and honestly, when I first joined the seal teams, that would the most frowned upon thing was to be broadcast yourself, that you were a seal right. You are that what you did and it- and it took me a long time- I mean writing this book was a was a. It's a really hard thing to do because you sit you, you know you you're you're supposed to be humble right, you're, more you're supposed to be humble, okay! Well, I'm gonna write a big book about myself. I mean that just did that just doesn't work and it was really hard and and leaf- and I doubt
is one of the biggest things that we did. Is we edit it and edit it an edited it. We went through it just just to make sure that we were women across and saying things in a manner that really reflected that humility, which again it's very hard to do, because it's a dichotomy. It's a dichotomy because you're saying hey, you gotta be humble as a leader, but I'm alright, book about myself. You don't get messages, it's just crazy, and so, when you're sitting here like oh, you should have a podcast and I'm thinking you know you should brought cast yourself then again with the way I was raised, because I see these are your hold all life in comedy, I spent my whole adult life in the seal teams, and I was raised by these old Vietnam guys that wore badasses and they will You don't talk about this right and so I'm kind of going against this. The way I was raised and so again I'm getting over it, I'm trying to get over it by
and at the same time I don't want to get completely over it, because that's part of you know, That's part of the way I was raised and what I believe in I see their point of view. I totally understand why they would say you don't talk about it, but what I think the benefit of talking about it today, as opposed to their time, Is that through the internet, you can broadcast in a way that would be like look, no ones take a navy seal back in the day and give them a gigantic television show where they can say whatever the fuck they wanted. Anytime. They wanted. But if you have a successful podcast, you can reach hundreds without people with each episode, which is just like a successful television show, and because of that, you have ability to educate people and give people this perspective that I said that I got from you that I'm just yeah, I'm not getting from anybody else unless they've been there, but I get it from you. I get it from TIM Kennedy different Brian Stann. I get it from any stop. I get it people that have been there and you get a different perspective than you
ever going to get from someone who's just pawn, defecating or guessing waxing po medically on the nature of man and war. It's all bullshit until you talk to who's actually been there. You don't really and what they're saying. I think that I think it would be gigantic. I really think you should good. I really. I really think it would help a lot of people. I think it would help a lot. People understand from the perspective of someone who actually knows that talking about and there's not a lot of that in the world, I think This is also what you're talking about when you're talking about the leadership in this country. It's I don't know if you should be. Someone who served in the military in order to qualify for being the president, but I don't think it's uh an idea to throw it out there to say that at the very least, you should spend some time living in these environments where were involved in massive conflict at the very
least you should visit them, spend a lot of time with the people who have lived and served and fought these countries. So you understand clearly, with no fuzziness at all what the fuck is going on in the world. Well, there's no doubt that I think military service. I mean it was so good. Hey. It was so good for me and would be good for everybody. What about Jamie over there? Look at him I don't know either see you just said. I don't know, I'm not one hundred percent sure I guarantee Jamie would get all a lot out of it. I'm sure it will guarantee you would, but he might wind up like that. Dude in full metal jacket with a rifle in the bathroom private Pyle get some ha yeah! I I did you know military didn't the motor was great for me and and but again you were. You were born.
For this I mean this is like something you were drawn to like a magnet to metal filings. Yeah yeah. I know I was I was drawn to it, but I You still like when I joined my dad, my dad he said to me you're going to hate it 'cause. You hate a thought. He has a my dad's house alone. Okay, then you know that, but that's that give do an indication as to what kind of kid I was. I was like completely out of control and didn't listen. Anybody and I was probably similar to what you were like I'm guessing just out of control, kid that just did whatever and so joy military it put the straw sure around me and all the sudden. I could take all this energy that I had an what's really nice about it. You get this clean slate weather like ok. If you do this, you will be successful. Here's what you do check these boxes, like. Ok, I'm ready to do those things and you just do 'em an you've developed the
discipline. You know the disappointment. I talk about that all the time. You know the fact that discipline equals freedom and the more discipline you have as a human, the more freedom, I have, which is, can the counter intuitive. You know, people think oh you're, living this discipline lifestyle. So that means you you, you don't have any freedom and it's actually the exact opposite. I have freedom because I have discipline I have. I have you know financial freedom, because I have financial discipline. I have more time. I have more time because I have the discipline to get up in the morning. You know before most normal people get up those the kind of disciplines put a place in those definitely get instilled through the military. Well, I think the one thing the discipline definitely does help you with. Is it helps you get things done and when you get things done, when you are you are you actually do things you, you you, have more success. If you have more success, sometimes uh, a big part of success is just not being fucking lazy and just doing it just yeah, that's like ninety percent of it is just showing up get there
and start working like you're not going to feel perfect every day. If I felt If I only worked out when I felt good I'd, be a fat fuck, 'cause, there's a what days I don't want to do, it have its. How much the same with everybody that that actually gets good at something that you get there's gotta be those days you push through and they're, probably going to be more numerous than the days you don't, and so the bed sort of discipline in my eyes is always been that through discipline. I get things done first, I would say that I'm, like the most lazy disciplined person. I know because I don't want to do it, but I always do and I'd be interested to get your perspective on this this statement. So I also think that discipline is. It is a pathway to create city and I'll. Tell you when I talk about creative is another misconception about the military. When you, the battlefield, is an absolute exercise in creativity. Are
talk about how you gonna leave. These people were going to do how you going to influence them, how you going to talk to them? How are you going to say the right things? That's creativity! Now you throw on top of that. What I'm going to do the enemy? How are we when will attack them. How are we going to DIS? Org is them? How are we going to get in their heads? That's all this massive creativity and when I look at people there are artists, like yourself, 'cause you're, a stand up comedian, you, I would imagine that the more disciplined you are, the you know you gotta get up and write. You gotta write stuff down. You got to read and find out about, what's going on the world to have more things that you can jab baton and make fun of you, gotta increase vocabulary so that you are quicker and sharper so that when people are saying things you have more words to battle back at them. Although things all that freedom that you get on stage comes from the discipline that you study. You learn. You read you right, you talk you go through things.
Is that an accurate statement, absolutely accurate and there's a great book on it. Steven Pressfield wrote a book called the war of art and press Field was essentially like a ne'er do well till he was like forty years old. He was kind of a fuck up and then I figured it out somewhere along the line figure it out. I used to keep a stack of 'em in my old studio, not hand amount to guess if I thought they needed it like just take this trust me read this there's a lot of artists in comics. I I bet musicians as well, but we're right for sure one of the big problems is sitting down and doing the work, and you got an Pressfield talks about that in the most concise and beautiful way, and he cables. It like an enemy cause, it resistance, you know and that you have to sit down and you have to overcome resistance and that the pro goes to work and it doesn't matter if you're sick doesn't matter. If you have kids, it doesn't matter what you're a pro and you go to work and that that just it puts it in your head that the
this is what I do. This is when you have pride in that and then, when you are in front of that keyboard and your You got you look down the count. It says: uh, uh fuck, one thousand words today I put one thousand words. Then you you do. And work in out of that work, gems blossom little things. You might have a day where you just write nothing but dog shit. So what show up again tomorrow and tomorrow to that dog get a flower or merge. You never know, and that's the only way to develop real like to really develop your one hundred percent in anything whether it says author or even as a social artist. There's a lot of creativity in martial arts to be a great striker. You have to be creative because you have to you, have develop patterns or exit new patterns that are and aren't going to be perceived, lie: If a guy has a real simple one thousand two hundred and twelve you're going to time that shit- and you were talking before these podcasts Holly homes, victory over Rhonda Rowsey, and one of the things that we were talking
that was at Rhonda had this very linear straight. Or an attack. You knew she was coming and Holly. He is a master at at countering. All she had to do was wait and move, and- and it was coming in one direction- there was no, there's. No variation is no created. There was no creativity, it was mad bulldog rush that had worked on everybody else before, but she found one person who was a virtuoso at movement, an she need creativity and it wasn't there and she needed that experience that came with having faced some one who knew that Shin and new new New had a deep understanding of that movement, and she didn't have that in our repertoire, and so that's the result that we saw like a striker like Anderson Silva is extremely creative. You watch he's gotta fight versus Tony Franklin in Cage warriors cage warriors what the fuck was it called in England, small.
Realization in England. I think it was yeah where he practiced this step in Upperco, elbow like a sideways elbow and his coach was going. Your fucking crazy, stop practicing that and he would make his wife hold the because his coach didn't want him to practice anymore 'cause. He thought it was wasting his time, so he practice stepping his wife and hold a pillow forum and he'd step in and throw this uppercut elbow, that's what he knocked out Franklin with, and he obviously Franklin was out class and that fight. But he wanted to make a point and like the want to deal ended. The face of Vitor Belfort Victor never saw that shit common 'cause. Nobody had done that to him before, because nobody had done that in the history of the UFC. Nobody had ever knocked anybody out with the first make you learn in martial arts, but the creativity to try something like that. He would throw punches to the thigh from standing throw a jab to your thought. He would throw a crescent kick and inside crescent. Kick to your face like what the fuck,
part of what made him such an effective striker is that he through these things, that you just didn't expect him to do. There's a lot of creativity in Jujitsu. You know that yeah! Well, I got Dean Lister in Jeff Glover or oh, my God, Jeff Glover is one of the most creative guys in Jujitsu. Today he's one of my favorite: he does this thing for folks had an arse, and jujitsu. Don't know we're talking about. He does this thing called a donkey guard. He's so how can crazy this guy? He gets on literally. He faces you with his butt to you an he launches himself backwards like a donkey, kicking and wraps you up, and it looks so prepare mistress, while he's doing it that so, any guys, especially when he first started executing it just had no idea what the fuck to do yeah. There is right there crazy, yes, he's out of his mind. He so he say comfortable in every. You know he trains where the same gym and
he trains every day with whoever and he puts himself in the most ridiculously horrible positions. I'm talking like, ok, he'll. Let people get a rear, naked choke on him. I mean he I'll watch another question: what is God's name, how it's going and he will escape he's just put himself in horrible positions, all the time just to organize and just to work on his defense and just to be in a bad way. I see avoid getting hurt. 'cause he's, not a big guy. He's super super super flexible, like crazy, flexible and no, he gets dinged up, but he just is very flexible and he knows where to put his body, you know he's just he's kind of a free because I knew that he trained with you. I was going to ask you like the idea of you and him training together for folks listening to who is the majority of our podcasts audio public? Ninety you're, about what forty or something like that yeah two hundred and thirty five yeah and Jeffs, well one hundred and fifty yeah yeah yeah, what the fuck I don't want to trip? I wait
depends I don't train with anybody. Is two hundred and ten the factories hunt fifty pounds in his training with guerrillas. You know how the fuck he does it. He does he's just super relaxed and he just moves moves really. Well, it's amazing. It's amazing and no back problems is alright. No neck problems he's one hundred percent at all times. Yeah. That's amazing, yeah deans get a little more dinged up. Dean looks like he ate ad. I saw him the other day, I'm like what are you with three hundred fucking pounds, and I don't mean in a fat way either he's huge big antic he's pretty big yeah. Is he just been power? Listen or something like what is he doing uh? I think he just eats yeah, but it is definitely lifting too 'cause like who doesn't go right to your neck is next is a genetic genetic mutant? I use another guys genetic mutant and yeah. He
and both those guys are are mutants their actual grappling mutants, where, if you- and I would like concoct some weird- you know like potion and create beings. You know you'd make like a Jeff Glover Keys, Weird Flexibles Y re and you'd be really good, and then you make a dean. Lester's is the big mutant who you queue when you, when you catch Dean you have to like. Do everything perfect because he's his defense is really good and he just doesn't it's really hard to tap in with stuff. You know like, like you'll, does give people, you know it's, for it would be like yeah go for it and it takes me like three days I'll have to soften his foot. Up with like nine foot locks, then just crank, it cry the crank, and then you know on the third day, I'll get a d one and it will already be like hurt. So you know so you have to solve a month ever stays tender, tenderizing meat. Well that was why it was so shocking when Josh Barnett tapped him, 'cause Josh, Barnett, tapped him and like
old school side like headlock joke, which is very rare. You know it's very where that you see like a high level guy that executes that choke like the way Josh did Josh got that old school catch wrestling. Knowledge too, which is just such a different approach. Get used to certain approaches, yeah and Josh has a very different approach and he's a very physically strong guys. While yeah- and I mean you know, Dean is just dean is a mutant and he is a gifted incredibly gifted grappler arm. But his you know his training methodology and lifestyle is not really conducive to competing. Like that, you know. Unfortunately, That's a nice way of saying is kind of lazy.
Let's just make those noises, not anything. You know he. He could definitely train harder and I've trained with all kinds of guys in the World World class guys all over the place and dean is absolutely you know one of those guys that is up there with, like you know, Hixson who have dream I'm trained Marcelo, but he's like that crazy, good, really wow. He was one of the first real leg, lock masters, really understood like an an what's up, who brought him in to into where someone brought him into a dcc the pride. Now I know he fuck. Why am I blanking Alan Belcher? Alan Belcher brought him when he fought, who smart harness who's the?
leg locker in MA an in that Fight Allen just stopped everything Paul Harris throughout a man literally eating every every single movement that I saw was like. Oh that's, that's this like. I knew exactly what dean had showed him exactly what those movements were. That's amazing What is dean doing these days, you're going to still compete or uh he's no he's teaching Jiu Jitsu and you know hanging out getting after it. I would love to see him just like get completely refocused and make make a run at winning, 80cc or whatever one more time before before he hangs it up, but she says: Ding dump like what kinda long just normal old, you know, Ju Jitsu type guy, you know he's his neck will be sore shoulder. We heard just that kind of stuff you know, but but you know he is a mutant, he's a mutant that could your five
he, he in eighty cc his last ever was in China. This is match against the charger when the judge is just a complete beast, and you know they went added it and that was a very close match. And again, if you watch training, videos of buchecha getting ready for 80cc he's training like a complete savage, I mean he's bringing wrestlers in he. It's clean and jerk he's flipping tires, he's doing everything that one does to prepare for a situation like that I mean, does not do those types of things. You know he'll come in and train a little bit and go on his natural ability as a mutant human being to get it down it's always frustrating when you see a guy who is so naturally gifted who kinda like lays back, but that's it seems to be that's a lot of what happens is that people that are naturally gifted don't have to work as hard, so they don't work as hard. It's also part of you know. When I talk about Jeff and Dean, both those guys,
there both and you know you could throw Eddie and then you could throw all kinds of people under this category who are who are kind of game chat measures. You know what I mean. Well, you know I don't know Eddie, that well of hung out a couple times, but I definitely know Jeff and Dean and there they got some. They got some some. Weird stuff about right. I mean they got some weird personality stuff and, from my perspective, If that is, you know, So, if you don't have that weird personality thing, then how are you going to be? You know a fifteen year old, Jeff Glover and be like you know what I'm going to do all day, I'm going to do all day everyday sit there and watch Youtube videos, I'm going to get good at this time it rain every day, I'm going to compete all over the country, I'm just that's what I'm going to do that. Or not! Some! If you have some, if your normal you're not going to do that, are normal persons like ok, I'm going to get a job at Walmart and then I'm going to do. You will train it also in for an hour and half night, these guys like: oh, no, I'm just going to rain all day every day and I'm going to live
in on the mat and dean same way like if he didn't have weird, like spark that made him. That makes him he's got some weird like knowledge which weird about him is, if you ask Eddie, Bravo about You know the rubber guard. He knows all this details about it, but if you ask him about footlocker or something that he doesn't know that well, he be like. Oh yeah, a little bit you last dean. Something that he knows nothing like you've, never seen him do before. He'll know all these detailed of the moves. I don't know if, seriously, don't know if he goes and watch it on Youtube or if you like studies or write it down, but he's got this. Weird little almost rain man, you know idiot savant type, weird thing in his head, he was one of those guys that had a really hard time transitioning into MMA. Absolutely his striking just never seemed fluid like, and he know I know he worked hard at it. He just
for whatever his body is designed for up things and you see that with everybody, because everyone's got strength and weaknesses, and everyone is going to go to something bad at something else. You know you and I know all these examples of people that are like this every fighter. You know it's got some we Kerry, and then you get occasion you to guys like G S p, that's just like well rounded right, but you know everyone, even even things physical Thanks physical attributes, you know some people are just super mutant, strong and some people are just super crazy, flexible and Soompi have unbelievable natural cardio and some people don't and So it's the people, then there's some people that are really good at grappling there's. Some people are really good at striking there's some people that are good at pudding, all those things together, which I was thought fade or was very natural at combining his. Breaking with his grappling and kind of making it all fit together. Better than most people could yeah yeah. I agree with you on that. I think that was
things that really stood out about him was that he didn't fall into that trap, that a lot of people do where, if you for a really good recipe, but you have knockout power, you just knock, everybody out and fade, or he would be you'd, be stunned and he would see your arm he would dive into Camorra. You know he would always take the opportunity that presented itself where there was a grappling situation where there is a striking situation and his well rounded ness was one of the things that made him special on top of his knockout art is aggression is he was so well rounded? It was his ability to flow with whatever was happening, and he also had that humility and He had that com like you like, you saw Holly had the other day, and I actually I actually again talking about social media. I posted up. I haven't posted much on face. The facebook before there's a video of Holly talking about she got beat by.
Sofia, Matthias in Kickboxing right and it was eight vicious fight. Watch it later kick boxer boxer Kickboxing, it's insane I mean, he gets destroyed. Holly gets completely destroyed hanging the ropes getting punched in the head. It's awful then watch the post fight interview with her and it's unbelievable because everything she says she takes complete ownership of the LOS she's, like I uh great training camp. I my coaches were telling me to do the right things, but I wasn't doing what I was supposed to do. I wasn't fighting the way I was supposed to fight the reason I last night is my fault. I did this and I will have to change things. If I'm going to be there, that hearing someone and the other part that was about it. Was she who's getting emotional like you? Could she likes? You want to cry, I mean she was crushed, but she kept
troll for emotions and let so when I saw that video on my panis crawlers is going to do going to do well in this fight. I mean I had a pretty good feeling about it. Well, she, She is incredibly solid. That's for sure, and that is so admirable when someone does take ownership of their mistakes, so important so important that we wrote the book the book is called extreme ownership that that's that that's literally the families in right there, but but that's that is like the key, though the reason it's called. That is because we and we made mistakes we owned up to him. And furthermore, when both life- and I ended up in position to where we were teaching leadership, life was teaching the junior officers that were coming out of the seal training, put them through the junior after training course- and I was teaching like I said, the advanced guys, and so you get two see
officers and, like I said we put these guys through horrible training scenarios, where everyone's getting killed and blown up and they'd be bought a bunny chairing people through the desert, and it's just awful an. You come back from these situations and you talk to one of the things they wanted good leaders and you say what went wrong and the guide say well number one. I didn't give we're not plan. No one really understood what my vision was. They didn't execute because I obviously didn't give them a good enough briefing, an you'd be like ok, fair enough and that I would go and fix that problem. The you get a guy that was would not take ownership of. If that would come in and say users a what what what went wrong returning. You know that that was you guys did a terrible job. What happened he said? Well, you know my my so. The force commander didn't wait for the command before he left and he screwed up and my putting chief wasn't heads up.
Where are casualties were being taken in my lpo and they did make all these excuses end It really was the difference between like who would be successful and who wouldn't be because the guy that takes on ship of the problems? What do you think? The rest of his team does just just it if that person takes ownership of the problems. Everybody on that team does the same thing. They don't say: yeah you're, right boss, it is your fault, no, they go Hey Boston or what I asked could have done a better job and that's read through everybody. Whereas when someone says they was my fault, it was Joe's fault. What is Joe do joke does not wasn't mind yeah exactly getting. Do we blame each other and guess what the problem never get solved exactly so to hear Hali talking about that after fighting taking complete ownership of a loss was very impressive. To me. She went to beat are like six months later. I believe yeah, it's one of the most Important things in getting good at anything is recognizing when you're, not good wreck
rising. When you make mistakes, it seems so simple right, but you know why, because go. No, he goes on everybody's ego, it's like even as I sit here and I try to teach people about. You know you got to keep your ego there's a chapter in there like you got to keep your ego in check. Once I went when I'll even ask somebody I'll be like hey is there anything? I done better in that in that speech, or in that class and they'll be like well, you know once that you could do at like immediately, unlike full wrestling hope, unliked wrestling like my ego, kinda god, I'm such a loser. I've been sitting here telling them about to put their ego in check and I'm an idiot, so everybody doesn't by everybody. Does it all the time? No one can take criticism and one of the biggest step of moving forward is is learning how to take ownership of stuff when it goes sideways and it definitely will You need some form some amount of pride in some amount of ego to get good at things in the first place. 'cause, it's such a count. Counter intuitive notion because you have to have a belief.
Pin yourself you have to be able like when you, when you first start out at June Do your wipeout being a wipe out and be like? Oh my god, I am fucking, never going to get good at this I'm going to suck forever, but to look the people who are better than you and know they had live sucked at one point in time. Ok, there's gotta be somewhere along the end of this tunnel. It's got to be a light. I just gotta keep going and No, no sexy girl. I was going say I mean ego drives. You be successful me to be successful, eagles, what's drive, the problem is when you let you go too far. Yeah and you know everything you know everything takes bounce. This is a dichotomy in everything. Every part of you has a dichotomy. You know you can get so into the physical aspects of things that you end up like doing a bunch of steroids and going crazy and growing your health right. Yes, that's not good right the other day and spectrum you can sit around and play video games and turn into yeah yeah.
Well there there's yeah. Bodybuilding is the best example of that right because yeah, it's kind of died. I hope that wasn't kind of bodybuilding there's no. To you and I it is, but I think is a giant culture of people out there that want to look like huge mutant, still I think I mean I'm not in that world, but when I mean it Bobby Building is a great example of that, because when you start left wait till, like God, I'd like to be stronger and you start getting a little bit bigger. You like I, like that, I gotta muscle who this is cool and then you keep going and then you keep going, but some guys get so fucking crazy. They won't stop until they have twenty two inch arms and they want to have thought eyes that are so big. They have to walk out there. They've got a barrel in between their legs and you know, and they they just can't help, but they just take it to some completely unhealthy place. Yeah, that's a that's rough yeah! What's it's just the nature of trying to get good at something you gotta recognize what's good and what is just
insane yeah, it happens in training camps of fighters all the times. You know this training to train. So it's about a big part of problem of of the problem with with mixed martial arts so obvious to when you're over training. Somebody because all the like one night, they'll just fall apart and he won't be able to do anything right now was like all right. Go you two stakes and take two days off. You know because they will get to a point: use film, you're, just filling fall apart, yeah bold! You have to monitor your heart rate. That's a big thing that a lot of fighters don't do, monitor your resting heart, rate in the morning and if it goes up more than five beats in a day or two most likely year over train or you're, sick or you're struggling with something that would make Steve spell taught me that trick like every fighter, should do that none of 'em do they did monitor their heart rate in every more. His heart rate is like seven yeah Steve Maxwell can fuck
he can deal with anything he just one of those dudes, but he's he's another guy. I want to talk about the guys got a lifetime of whisper comes to strength and conditioning and what he calls physical culture and the culture of taking care of your body guys sixty the two or sixty three years old, fit as if it travels all around the world, training people- that's all he does doesn't have a house. Doesn't he has a bad bag that he brings with him when he travels around all the stuffs. In that bag I ran into him in San Diego 'cause. He's been downsizing like when I first time I ran into in San Diego, he was down to living in, like a an rv like a smaller the that's why this man is in the eye. I hear him on a podcast, whatever you know a year later, two years later and he's no, I have all my worldly possessions in a backpack yeah. This old is RV and it's like fuck it. I don't even know if you have a bank account,
in other news. This is a strange cat man. He really is a strange cat, but a very at peace guy. For sure yeah I mean it's, it was very interested. I wouldn't want to live like that. I don't like living like that. But he's also been the guy. That's live the other way he's had the house needs at the family and his Zach is a very successful jiu, Jitsu competitor and you know, got divorced and gave up the gym. He had the all the trappings. You had everything he's like. I like it better like this, like backpack the the keyword there was trapping. So you know maybe somehow built all these things around him that felt ended up making him feel trapped. Yeah for yeah, it's just what he figured out what he enjoys. He enjoys training still doing jujitsu to this day and he teaches a core, course jujitsu for lifetime, and it's all about maintaining your health. While you train- and you know, he's written articles on training smart to avoid injuries as you get older, and you know how to pick the right tree,
the partner's make sure you know you know just trying to hurt you, but you can keep playing an active martial arts lifestyle. Deep in your sixties, I kids yeah. You gotta be thankful that you started to do it through a little bit younger because you how to get in. Even today. If you start, Jujitsu is an older. We have all kinds of older guys coming to the gym and it's that first, like year yeah where they just don't know where to put their body yet, and they do notice they don't know to say no to that twenty one year old juice, the marine that's like in there to get after it anyway. Big smack answer role in this guys. Gonna tear him apart and that's how guys get her. If they're, if they're older and you know you need to ease into it a little bit. You got to take a train partners carefully and this it is always going to be the guy that hurts people who just beat his giant german dude. That used to roll at our gym is that was
everybody in leg locks and blow their knees out in the system. I was you know she never rolled back, I'm like, and I have a I've been leg locked by Denarnaud. How many times like I mean we might be talking thousands of times. He looked me locked, but you know I've never been hurt? You know and I've gotten him. You know not thousands with plenty of times and we've never heard each other. You know because we we know where do yeah I'd way, rather roll with a black belt for sure some fucking psycho blue belt, it's just too dangerous. Sometimes it just Tuesday Spazz out head bought. You accidentaly and weird shit happens. It's some one things that I think is amazing is that Anthony Bordain has gotten crazy. Z into Jiu Jitsu over the last. I think, two years now he just turned his blue belt. He's fifty nine yeah. It's awesome. It's amazing
He lifetime of smoking cigarettes doing heroin like nah, never was fit, never exercise at all. When I first met him like he would laugh about fitness, he just wanted. Drink beer and and know he first time we did my Ipod We got so high. I don't even know how we talked and- and I just did his tv show like couple weeks ago- Montana all want talk about Jujitsu, he's obsessed, I'm showing him. Some techniques were talking about different guys that like to do different things at different approaches- and t versus no guy in John Donna. Her and you know get. Free tone in an Eddie Commons and all these different This is amazing. I can't believe what a transformation this guy is overtaken Jujitsu. Definitely I mean people can get into all kinds of weird stuff right people get into surfing people get into skiing people get into rock climbing, there's, definitely something
or in Jujitsu Jitsu that gets into people's heads. We definitely happen to me. I mean I was completely and I Why am I mean? I still cannot like stop a Youtube video of cool move. I mean I just I just have to watch it yeah and I think it's because there's such a cerebral part of it there's something about it and I you know we teach kids an you'll see that the knucklehead key is the kind of knuckle dragon. Kids are kind of big, they don't really get it, but then you get kid like some smart kid. You can tell they're smart and those the kids that get really into jujitsu because they realize like. Oh. If I learned this, I can beat that big kid and that's where it starts, but gadgets. You can definitely be addictive. Well, gee this is the only martial art where really works like in the Bruce Lee Movie, where the little guy really can beat the big guy. The reality is like. If you watch the old K1 days where Bob Sapp was fighting when Bob Sapp was three
One hundred and seventy five pounds with abs like you've, never seen anything like it. He was he on stair. He was steroids. There was nothing human left and beat Ernesto Hoost twice. Who is arguably on the top two or three greatest kickboxers ever and Bob Sapp, just Bum rushed him and Donkey Kong DEM just beat him down with clubbing, punches 'cause, he was so much bigger than him. He was more than one hundred and fifty bigger than him. Probably, I think we're who's in it. His biggest is probably two hundred and thirty. Maybe some people into your point I was in Japan. I was with Dean as a matter of fact, when no gear a submitted sap that was in San that wasn't that wasn't saying there was a perfect example, for example with boy it had to be Nogara, though, because Sap Sap dropped him on his
and piledrived him on his head. I saw him the next day, no gira like after the fight- and he was hurt- I mean he was beat up bad. Oh my god, look! Some up his neck was fucked up. Apparently, for after that, I ever after that his neck essentially never recovered after that fight. You know that was one of the fights at fade or passed on federal, wouldn't fight Bob Sapp, it's like. Yeah. You take your fucking clown show, take your circus act, and now here is like fade or was like. No thanks on the freak show I'm going to fight, but then again he Hong man, Choi who's, a giant guy too, but giant actually Giget it is a giant not giant like juice, and the gills giant butt look Bob Sapp mean. All power to him. They didn't law against it and he went in there and they were paying him and that's how you made a ton of money doing that. But the point is that in Jujitsu, like
Maybe an mma, it's a little bit different 'cause. You know, obviously Bob Sapp drop Nogara on his head and most people would have been done then, but no Guerra was legendarily tough, but small man to tap out a much larger, stronger man. Basis, I watch Rick Rodriguez in Abu Dhabi, gets more so Garcia. I was very re. There yeah no way yeah days some and when we go through months, but when Marcel took records, backbones Rico threw himself backwards and slammed on top of Martley wake. Marcel's the backpack on Ricos Back Rico's like two hundred and forty, something maybe even heavier threw himself backwards, an land at all his weight on Marcelo ourselves shook it off and leg, lock them incredible. Incredible, I mean Marcel was like one hundred and sixty pounds, maybe one hundred and seventy maybe but just so skilled and so dangerous with his Jiu Jitsu that he was the favorite in that which is incredible, and that's that's where I think that addicts
comes in, because I think it's just a cerebral thing with people realize that it's like you said it's there's a real force went out. One might the my kid asked me yeah the movie, the Incredibles, yes there's, these people have superpowers and my my son asked a data. Is there really such a thing as superpowers and I'm like Jujitsu is definitely assume it's a superpower. You know, if you remember the days before anybody knew it If you knew a little tiny bit bad, you were just getting. No one can stop. You is awesome, also amazing, to see the pro grayshon of Jujitsu in comparison in nineteen. Ninety three, because the digits of now ninety three was so primitive in comparison to what you have today, like the guys we're winning with Jujitsu God. The setups were so obvious. You could the arm bars a mile away. There was nothing crazier, weird about it, and you look at that and compare into today. Like a Jacques array like when Jock array gets arm, it's like a work of art mean
you watch his setups. You look good Lord, like he tapped, Kriska mosey with an arm bar and I've watched the transition the way he can troll them on the ground and the scramble to armbar. I probably watched it forty times in a row. I just played it back and forth and went fuck one more time, fuck and like perfect placement of the schineni, the press for the Hipc. Everything is in place that can, all of the arm. It was a. It was a done deal from the moment. He started his movements now that to he's like that's just as beautiful as any painting that anybody's ever made is go down. One hundred percent is an art to that. No doubt about it. What year did you start? a ninety two or ninety, three damn you got in early got in early. Luckily, I had a pretty. Let's see we knew when we watch that First UFC, we all knew well, there's there's three or four of us that new that voice Royce Gracie was Gracie, was that's a rain
yeah and we had this old, cold steel, master, chief old Vietnam ERA, seal Master chief named Steve Bailey and he was, is like a high level white belt, and he, and with Thorin Gracie up in the garage, open torrents, and so he knew he knew digits in the garage for Mister Rogers and the epicenter yeah. Two, no kid in America, and but this guy Steve Bailey to train there and you know, one day we were over on deployment over in Guam and he said hey who here wants to learn how to fight and I'm like hey. I want to learn how to fight. And he just took us all and just choked us all. You know I mean like ok, you attack me and just choke song like ok, I'll, listen to whatever this guy is saying. So so he taught us. You know the basic you know like the rear, naked choke and the arm lock and like the Eric on or something like you know, we're talking like four or five different moves and with those moves, I never. I every write,
try to get into you know I just force someone into the rear, naked choke or for something, but they had no idea was happening, so is actually amazing. But but again I thought at that time that that was jujitsu like there was this finite thing a lot of people did, and then you realize you know that it's completely unending and it changes every day Jacques Machado had a guy that moved to black belt and he was a very good martial artist. He was very physically strong. This guy, it was a big like bulky. Do like a naturally big bone, strong guy, the gay people out problems and then decided in like didn't just decide this but said it publicly. I've learned all. I could learn about Jujitsu Jitsu and now I'm going to learn all I can learn about moitie and everybody just went out we're done with you, so it was like it was so ridiculed in the jets of community and in the people in John Jock School that everybody
like I was having a blue bell at the time, and I was like what the fuck is. This guy, like you learned everything, how can you learn every there's, no end who doesn't end goes on forever. Like you can't get, please get better, it's not it's not something until you achieve the speed of light and that's another another great thing about Jujitsu's because it like combat it reflects life and, if the day you start saying that you're good to go like in leadership, has ignore whatever task you're working on the day. You say I've learned everything there is to learn about. This is the day you start to lose, and I know that humility is something that you have to keep yourself in check again. I gotta ask the other day when were you? When was your high point of leadership, and I'm like, I never had a high point of leadership, I was always trying to I was always trying to figure out what I was doing wrong and what mistakes I was making 'cause. If you don't do that, that's probably
something I learned from jets. Are you know if you don't do that, then that going to get passed by another we're going to figure something new way of doing it and you're going to be left in the dark yeah as much as I like to use like the term that was perfect. There really is nothing perfect in human beings. There always room for improvement. There's always a shorter path is always a quicker victory. There's always there's always news, things to learn and as soon as you thinking that you've mastered some to the point of of an end like you kind of missed out what it's all about in the first place. It's all about. You constantly uncomfortable you supposed to be constant, comfortable and then, in these little victories that you get the good thing about when people tap you get up I get a little nice feeling right here and there like let's go again and they only have fuck back to be uncomfortable and there's no getting around any taps. You like ass shit, quit while ahead, no, no because you're missing the point. The point is that it's a long path along
arduous path, and I think anything that's worth doing, probably like that. There's no doubt about it now and that's another another piece again another place where Ju Jitsu is like life. Is he you think at some point? You think you know, like you, think, you're good, you think you're doing pretty good, and then you just get smacked you get smacked with something like now like when you were twenty five you like I'm, pretty I'm pretty good to go. You know, I'm pretty, I pretty much know what's up and then, when you're thirty or like I didn't know anything list which I was in India Image and it's true like even so, I think one of the one of the things that provides some small portion of like mature it. Is a human being. Is a man is when you get to. The point Are you actually realize that you don't know everything in your like looking at yourself, like I'm forty four and I'm like yeah, I'm going learn so much in the next three years.
Five years, I'm going to look at myself at forty four and go yeah, see how stupid you were then, and when come to that realization. I think that's a pretty positive thing because it takes awhile to figure out that hey you don't have everything figured out you're pretty stupid right now, even though it- You don't think so. Another thing that things like jujutsu teach you and I say, Jujitsu, but it's really a an all martial arts saying the Prob the other martial arts other than Jujitsu is at a certain point, I'm you can't really practice them. One hundred percent, like striking, you really can't pray striking one hundred percent for very long or your brain starts to give out just the fact jiu jitsu. You can change it, so you can do it deep deep into your 50s, I mean, there's like a or Anthony Bordain is pushing 60s still doing it, and you know it that is going to be a world beater, but he can get the most out of it. The most he can get out of it. It's it's that stays the same like what you get out of stays the same. Regardless of your were
hardness of the success like wow you're getting out of it, even if you're getting tapped when you get kind of, is doing your best and overcoming and improving upon what your best is everyday and doing so in a situation where there is extreme consequences are going to get strangled. You know you're going to get your arm broken. If you don't tap you're going to get your leg fucked up. If you don't tap, it's not as it name is combat obviously, but is extreme. You can get in a sport that you're participating in an activity that you're participate. In voluntarily in America, at five hundred and thirty, on a Tuesday where you're going to get through The people that are going to show up slap him together and then hug it out after it's over and going to be here tomorrow. Yeah I'll see you man and then you know back again, tomorrow same thing: that's another kind of primal piece that makes jujitsu jitsu, so it
intense is, if you and me roll like an I get you or you get me, and I tap in my heart. I know that if you and I were fighting for survival, I just lossed and you to killed me, and I see this with kids new kids compete. You tell me listen just go out. There have fun it's going to be fun, you know just go out there and do your best. I don't care if you win or lose just go out and have a good time. You tell him that you tell me you tell him that if they get tapped, they start crying, so emotional and why is that? Because a part of them inside there? and they don't even know exists, knows that that person has they been in a mortal struggle. They got beat yeah, they got their ass, kicked yeah. It's not like someone. This is what I always say like so many dunks a basketball and you did sucks but
It doesn't mean anything unless you decide it means something. What is basketball escalate into, would do all sports at all sports escalate into fights? So let's get rid of the bat the ball whatever else it just fight. Let's just that's lights, you know, that's why the I think the UFC has been so highly successful because it is it's what it's the ultimate combat sport again com that itself yeah. Well. It's also why the dorks in pencil necks, hate it so much because they think it's a regression back to the final days of Caveman combat like what are we supporting some fat fuck RD in art for like the New Yorker New York Post, or something like that about the Ronda Rousey loss about how barbaric and disgusting it was and what it. What and bullshit bullshit we were fed and that you know we're made out that she was this unconquerable to watch her beaten unconscious was disgusting and you don't get it man like you, don't get it like what you're doing with your fat face
like shoving cheese burgers down your mug is way worse than anything that she did inside the octagon. It's it's interesting because that kind of attitude can can cross borders and other things, and you know I I I used and talk to people you know through through our company people that are smart, what you mean every like I'll, be in a room with everyone's went to and I, Elite colleges been super successful in their worth millions and millions. If not hundreds of millions of dollars- and I was given- These talks the other day, and we, of course they ended up. Asking me about ISIS. And all that and as I'm sitting there looking and I'm thinking to myself like the these people are all looking at me and thinking I'm just a savage right. I'm just like hey, I'm a knuckle dragger. We just need to go, kill everyone, and so I tried to explain I'm like listen. I almost, I almost
feel ashamed to say this to everyone here, because is everyone here, is an intellectual and is very very smart. But there are some problems in the world that there is not an academic solution to in. Sometimes violence is the solution and it, and there can be a million arguments against that, but the reality of it is in the world. It's like. We were talking about earlier in the world. There are evil people that do evil things and the only way to stop them is to confront them and destroy them, and unfortunately, we we are so disconnected from that that it people look at you have seeing. Oh my god. How could that happen, and it makes people look at?
a military attack and say- oh my god, how could that happen? It can happen because we're human beings and were in perfect and there are there- are evil people in the world well, the people that think there's no ever no excuse for a violent solution. Take those people bring them to Ramadi right now, right yeah, I mean how do you deal with evil when it exists. How do you deal with it? Do you do hug them? Do you knock on the door with flowers? What do you do? I mean? What is the solution they don't have an answer they haven't and the only reason why they even have that attitude is because they live here in this sheltered environment in our beautiful bubble we call the United States of America that many brave men and women have provided and will continue to provide, regardless of what is said about them, and God bless those folks out there on the wire, yes, sir,
and with that extreme ownership, those three hours, man which is banged out three hours, damn crazy and here Jocko Willink and leaf leaf leave life, Valium Leif, Babin, extreme ownership, how Us Navy seals lead and win, and taco is on Twitter Jocko Willink on Twitter, as though it is Jocko Willink, and what is it on? Do you have anything else website? Well, yeah we we have a facebook for extreme ownership. We have extreme ownership, twitter, yeah, we're there are in the social media, world broadcasting ourselves and soon a podcast right, and I will I will do a podcast see I notice I will do not going to happen. Ecochard just be ready to record apart podcast brother. Thank you very much, sir. This was awesome. I really really appreciate it and uh I will put up a link on Amazon after the podcast so go out and buy this book folks. Thank you very much I'll go. Great thanks for having me on all right. Ladies gentlemen, thank you for tuning into the podcast and thing
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the phone to the top of the homepage and type in J r E that stamps dot com and enter in the J R E. All right take some Everybody appreciate the fuck out of you tomorrow. My guest will be the great Dmitry mighty Mouse Johnson, the best pound for pound fighter on the planet, earth and a really cool, unassuming intelligent young man, and that will be Wednesday. Then on today we have so one and only Bert the mother, fucking machine crusher with Brian model, fog and Redban whole boy should be a giggle fit. And will probably be drunk as fuck, so that will be on Thursday, but tomorrow mighty mouse and until then that's it podcast is over. Why still listening goddamnit it's over
fucking phone off all right, whatever you listening to this appreciate you people more than I could ever express. I've said all the time, but I truly truly mean it nothing but love. Thank you. So much bye, bye they cast
Transcript generated on 2019-10-05.