« The Joe Rogan Experience

#930 - Will MacAskill

2017-03-13 | 🔗
Will MacAskill is a  philosopher and notable figure within the effective altruism movement. He is a tutorial fellow in philosophy at Lincoln College, Oxford.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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they've been jade re and you never have to go to the pool post office. Again, hallelujah and that's it. I don't want you anymore ads, so it's just wrap it up I guess today is a very interesting, an intelligent young man with some fascinating ideas I really enjoy talking to. Is recommended to me by SAM Harris. We had the conversation and I don't want to say too much She wants you to welcome he's one of the co founders of the effective altruism movement he's just really interesting guys a scholar reason. Fasa Risa is only twenty nine fucking smart to Maine,
give it up for Will Mccaskill reason. Gentlemen: the Joe Rogan experience trying my day, Joe Rogan Podcast, my name all day. Right now we live live, live. How are you, Sir yeah, I'm not too bad welcome thanks for coming appreciate. It yeah no worries thanks. So much for having SAM Harris is going to be with us, but you flaked out last minute he's busy man he's a busy man, so I'm. I'm interested to talk to you about a bunch of things, but one of the big ones is this idea of effective, altruism, and this is something that you really promote to the point where I don't know if this is true, but I read this about you that the thing that you make over thirty six thousand dollars a year. You donate yeah, that's right, so yeah. So everything above technically is everything about twenty thousand ones from two thousand and nine Oxford, so just for inflation, cost of living changes and stuff. But that's about thirty
six thousand dollars. So you just sort of decided that, which is by the way, the one percent for the whole world yeah, not cool, We've got two percent yeah I'll be in the top, still be in the top two percent. Even despite thought, it was thirty. Four thousand. I think thirty four thousand puts you in the top one percent. I think it's fifty five thousand dollars. It was a change. Maybe, since Trump's been in office, yeah, that's right, but it's it's you know what you're doing is. If that's really the case. That's that's a very charitable thing. Yeah, and it's also, I mean it's most. My income over the course of my life, like especially as an academic in a canal on tons, though, since the fact about his and blew up, you end up getting things like speaking fees, and you know right. I want to give all that away as well. So it's going to end up, probably being like the large majority of income. Of course, in my life,
Do you ever like want to buy something and the like should? If I wasn't so God, damn generous I'd be able to get this. You know I never do and basically never think that yeah. I think like this, like, I feel like in contempt society. We just get bombarded with marketing. So all that I'm saying like oh, you really need this thing. If you're going to have a good life- and I think, like an almost every case- that's just not to do psychological evidence just shows that once you above assert living, come additional money has a very small impact on your happiness and in my own case, like the things that make me happy like being surrounded by friends. That's for the gym membership. That's like forty dollars a month or something it's not very much. I can afford that, being able to work, and you know what I really am passionate about, already have that. So my life is a soul but in so many ways- and I feel like there's so much a focus on money and how money is the key to happiness, and it's just, I think, it's just all bullshit, basically, what's definitely
some bullshit in it- and I see that a lot in my neighborhood because I live where white people go to breed and they they they, go to breed and they sit down and they just talk about things. They talk about range rovers and certain watch is an certain purses and shoes and MS, is constant. The amazing thing is just how you adapt well to have done. It said mills of it, so you are the of it to you need to be well yeah, so I was once some part of a conversation. I was gonna give a talk, and I was going to like a family and as on the kind of that on a private jet. In fact, and the conversation was discussion with different private jets and which play with jets are better than so on this other person has this really nice favorite jet this means that, like at no
stays you ever lose the like. I could just have this nice a thing, no, because you can get to the point where you want a jumbo jet like one of those Qantas AIR buses, and yet I found out like a house yeah yeah. I mean I'm sure that one of those Richard Branson characters, probably has something like that yeah. Well, it seems to get to this. You you hit this critical mass stage where you you know like these billionaire characters, with a star buying hundred million dollar yachts in four hundred million dollar yachts and what is the most expensive yacht? I believe it's a half a billion dollars or more incredible yeah, and you need to have a staff to take care of it the whole time and if it ever, the thing is, I think, if I had a yacht that would make my life worse. Would be stressing about this yard. Like nothing gets damaged like I feel bad that I'm not using it yeah yeah. I would imagine and less whoa. I guess not, though, because if you can't look at this, oh Jesus Christ, it's a billion billion,
the streets of Monaco is what it's called and it is one billion dollars. Go to that thing. That's it! Oh, my got it the neighborhood. I think, some floating neighborhood? I think in all of these things you should replace the cost with how many bed nets you could buy for children and subs Aharon Africa. Well, that's just ridiculous. Hold I go up. One did once a one point: two billion scroll up estimated price, all my God, the eclipse for One hundred and fifty million to one point: two billion, that's like when you go get it made, and you go like how much it's going to cost me. Between four hundred and fifty million and one dot, two billion, like you know normal, funny yeah yeah normal shit, fuck it change that is fucking insane. Look at that God. Damn thing I mean it's. The routes of replica of the man go Grand Prix track. Oh my god! That's insane!
You can drive around on your yacht at a ridiculous rate of speed, so this is probably has like a ferrari than a bar all of the surface of his crazy yacht. Okay, let's get a fake beach, but it hasn't been sold. Yet I don't actually own yet I don't mmhm insisting he buys that they're gonna. Look at love! Attentions well, there are enough people, there's there's a bunch of those people, yeah yeah, I mean I don't know how two billion. That's probably it is only a couple of one thousand people in the world who are worth that much really how many are willing to sink the whole fortune. How many billionaires do you think there are worldwide? Let's see in the half thousand billion three five thousand. You sound very confident. I think it's about that. Yet, large number, that is kind of crazy. Three one slash two thousand people that have more than one thousand million dollars and there's all well Mccaskill. I know thirty, five thousand, it cuts it off, but then half that eighteen,
one thousand eight hundred people billionaires. Oh you're, happy glad. We've got well now, I'm just happy. We've got fact checking on it, connect to my full statistics, That's a lot of money man, but it is one of those weird things where I do not think that money equates to happen is one of the things that money does do. Is it alleviates the stress of bills, but a lot? the stress of bills can be alleviated by not buying as many things right like a lot The stress of bills that people have is sort of self imposed dress. Like you get a mortgage for a very large house. You have car payments, you have all these different things that you're paying for so that kind of Any stress that some people put themselves under is actually not really necessary. Yeah. Absolutely so if you broke it down to what do you actually need? Just need a nice place to live where it's not crime ridden in his save? You need a bad. What else do you need food yeah? You need food. Exercise? Are you one of those no tv dudes? Do you ever do Well, I watched Netflix just finished veep, which I love. Is it
yeah. It gets better. The first seasons are so good, but I guess I don't have that kind of patience affecting not sort of seasons. Yeah I just get addicted. Even if I want something I think it's awful. I still get addicted. I don't have to watch all of it yeah I have like the most compulsive personal. Have you seen The cards. I've not seen a delivery, not start classical show yeah. That's a good show like game of that. Yeah like game of thrones, makes my life worth. I like hate to really? I think it's amazing television, but I find it to so distressing because it's so good he'll have to watch it all the time. Why do you find it distressing? Just like you know the violence yeah, the violence, people getting the heads popped in some, oh, that one with the mountain yeah, that's the one that really stays with MOO. That's rough yeah! I'm! I have to give me a lot of anxiety because I know there's only two seasons left in and the next season's one coming up is only seven. Episodes in the final season is only six, I'm so happy that it's like a silent making.
Happy? Well, I'm not very happy about that. Our office, like someone saying the Gonna, stop selling Heather. When this happened. I was fine, then you might as well be yeah. I'm gonna have to get hooked on Oxycontin. That's what I feel it's as I just have to watch the whole season. All over again or the whole series, so you yeah television, you have a computer, I'm sure have a computer yeah yeah like move around a ton, so I normally like I don't have a house, but it wouldn't be convenient to have a house 'cause, I'm traveling. So much to you apartment or something you have an apartment. You live in England, living Dachshund at the time. I spend quite a chunk of my time out in the bay earlier, like significant part of our staff and the non profits out there, and I've got lots of contacts sister stations about there. So, most of your time, you, it seems like you're spending working for charitable organizations or yeah so I'm over. I have kind of free hat, so one is an academic. Some professor at Oxford. Second, is this kind of more public figure where I'm talking
but these ideas through books, so on this podcast and so on, and then third is on a nonprofit called the center for the altruism about tourism, which is more about like finding the best charities, the ones that doing the most good's going to help other people, the most antenna, promote them and try and get people to give more and to give more effect yeah we've gone over in effective charities or and effective, but charities that are the way they are structured. When you look at how much money is actually going towards the charity itself and how much is going towards the structure, the organization, it's kind of crazy yeah, I mean, I think, so, Normally, the focus of ineffective charities is on like yeah, how to spend on overheads by act. That's not the most important thing. The most important thing is: what's the child, as he actually doing like what's the actual program, so one charity, for example, that I'm sure that you'll find funny is a tactical homeopaths without borders, and it goes to Haiti in particular, and the cities like homeopathic remedies.
You know which don't work, they don't provide any health benefit and even if it had a zero percent overhead cost so apps like spent nothing everyone volunteers, it would still be bad chalati. You still shouldn't be giving to charity right. Well, that's a hilarious one! I didn't know that that one existed yeah yeah, it's kind of small. I would have imagined still, thankfully, only pass without borders, God, but then there's some super effective charities, like you know, program that you know: saving a life with everything and a half thousand dollars like the cancel any foundation, even if they were spending a bunch on you know in. Vesta gating what the best areas to focus on or like paying their staff more? If what you should just care about is how much money you picking in and what you're getting is an outcome I think it's impossible for everyone to it's impossible. You to give ten
as an all ten dollars is going to go directly to the charity because there's got to be over here. That's got to be infrastructure. That's got to be a bunch of people work in their rent. This is this. Is this costs? But the question is like at what point does it become kind of a scam because they are most certainly some organizations that appear to be, charitable organizations, but are really kind of a scam. Yeah there's. Definitely some so like the kids wish network, for example, kind of like the make a wish foundation similar idea and they spent ninety nine percent of their budget on fund raising. So they were just like this kind of Chattel ponzi scheme. Basically, so they spend all their money on fund raising itself to then invest in more fun facing, and one percent somehow or another gets out there was like? Maybe it's not as high as ninety nine percent goes above ninety. This is something crazy. So what does that money get yeah like what do they do with the actual money itself and then the idea behind that was granting wishes for sick children
I'm so San Francisco thing with back kids. It was like a bit like big event: lots of publicity around is bad. Kid a child that had some strange disorder, yeah so the child's. I don't know details. I think the childhood leukemia they wish was that they wanted to be Batman for the day. Okay, it is a different thing: yeah, okay, cool, so they like the make a Wish foundation set up this. You know amazing, stormy weather, going to kind of five and a batmobile and might have this a fantastic day with a basically batman for the day. Kids in it, which network is doing basically the same thing they find seriously six kids, often terminally ill kids say what one thing would you want and we'll make it happen,
but I think, but there is a lot of focus on like particularly bad charities. You know the ones that just really come up with completely dysfunctional, but I think that's not actually the most important message what's most important is just even among the challenges that are kind of good, even the ones that are making a difference. There still a vast difference in the impact you have did. It's of hundreds of thousands of times between the challenges that are merely good and the ones that are clearly the very best and that's primarily dependent on what program. Are they focusing on So what is there any charity that people should avoid spending their money on like? Are they Other charities that you feel like are just so ridiculously ineffective, like ones we mentioned of kids wish network a homeopath without borders, and the only path without borders is ridiculous, like voodoo on parade, just stop yeah I mean, there's another one. I can't remember if it does,
astrology without limits, and so it's even that limit. Now it does dolphin therapy for autistic children, which has no evidence of working but does actually just have some like risk of the and learning so again, it's Christmas yeah. So you can like cherry pick these examples, but the thing is that these are just not really representative in general. I think child he's doing good, but the question is just like in the same way as if you're buying a product for yourself, you don't just want to get like. You know a laptop as long as it's works. You want to find out. What's the best laptop, I can get with my money right. Well, if you're investing you wanna, not just get like an okay to turn, you want to see what what's the best, the town again right. So in that sense I think, like the number of charities, do you think it's just yeah? This is really competing for being the most effective child in the world.
That's, actually very small, so give well for examples, evaluate to look all sorts of different global health and global development charities and its list of charities. It's like yeah. This is just super good. You should really be donating to them. It's only seven charities long at the moment, my next up from last year, when it was only for a child to form wow, seven charities. Out of him, I mean what is the overall total of active charities gonna be in the in the Townsend's, hundreds of thousands yeah sure what got you involved in this, so you're, a young guy. You seem like you, should be playing video games and a boarding or something to spend a lot of my teenagers playing video games. John yeah, it was again compulsive personality yeah. I need to ban myself and so your compulsive personalities now going towards good things and went yeah. I man is the key was managing my life, so the things I get really focused on deck to addicted, to were good things from that I so yeah it all started back in. So I was back in high school,
kind of undergraduate of being very convinced by the arguments of this philosopher Peter singer? I know Peter singer he's like a radical animal rights activists yeah. He has a few things He had this argument, which is that the way I tell the story is imagine someone walks is walking past a shallow pond. And they see a child drowning in that shallow. Pond and they could run in and they could save the child, but wearing a really nice suit suit. The costs like three thousand dollars, and so they say no. Not going to say that child I'm going to walk by and let it down, because I don't want to lose the cost of this suit. Philosophy. We have a technical term for people like that they called assholes and the This is how I can pay it. In my side and
obviously we all agree like yeah come on. If it's just, you could clearly save this child. It's light in front of you. You ought to do that. The cost of three thousand dollars does not count. But then, what Peter singer's insight inside says? Well, what's the difference between that child? That's right there in front of you and that child that's in Sub Saharan Africa, who you could say if you'll never meet them for sure. But you still save their life with just a few one thousand dollars. If you donate it to a fairly effective nonprofit, and he can say there's all different ways in which these cases might be DIS analogous. But it is ultimately like. No there's actually just know modeling of elephant deference and so yeah we do just have an obligation to give away at Lee is a very significant proportion of our income I was, really convinced by this kind of on an intellectual level for many years, but I know really did anything about it not until I went to Oxford to do postgraduate degree in philosophy and in
summer? Between that I need some money. I worked as a fundraiser for Cal International Development Charity, so is one of those annoying people in the street who had kind of past like thank, get in your way and then ask you to donate ten dollars a month, I meant all day every day I was talking about like look. This is the conditions of people next in poverty. We can do so much to help people at such little cost to ourselves. Why are we not doing this? and I was just over and over again and kind of getting these apathetic responses, and I was asking so frustrated because I just thought Look these people just not living up to their own values. People clearly do Claire care, the sum so block going on, and then I thought well, I'm going to do philosophy in at the time I was planning to do like for us to language logic very esoteric stuff, and so I thought well, I'm not living up to my own values. I should really try to make a change went to oxfords and I started asking a whole bunch of different kind of academics. Well, what the impact of your work, what kind of
if it's, if you made hi normally there like I'm, not really in it to make an impact? I just convinces in these ideas- and I was be disheartening, but I kept persisting until I met another post graduate student called Toby ORD and he just blew me away because he had also been convinced by these ideas, but he gone one step further and he said yep I have made of shipment to give away almost all of my income over the course of my life, that million pounds at time. He was living on nine thousand pound saving two thousand pounds and donating two thousand pounds he's like really hard core the thing, as well as like, actually taking these ideas and putting into practice. What we we blew me away was how positive he was and his it was not that he was kind of weddings, hash fudge awaiting. Instead, he was saying look. This is an amazing way to live. We have this amazing opportunity to do a huge amount of goods to help so many other people, thousands of people, what is actually very low cost to ourselves and me and that one person who
so can I shared my world view shared by ambitions just men, okay, that little psychological block was lifted, and it meant that I was like okay cool I'm on board. First, I gonna committed ten percent that I was like. No. Actually, I think you can do this for the pledge I'm and then that meant I had this question of one tiny to give away could come like million pounds of the course of my life, which that money go. You know one of make sure it has a big impact as possible, and that meant I started enter well. How can we compared between different charities? I found there's a ton of work from health and development economics. They could help us to answer this and what began as this kind of side project between these two no ivory tower academics me and Toby. We found the loads of people just with daily taken by the
idea both of giving more, but in particular, have given more effectively and over time. This kind of global movement called effective, altruism, start to form around these ideas, and so the bloating and a couple of ways, so one thousand away from just charitable donations to also thinking about well. What should I think about what aspects of MIKE personal consumption? What should I think about with aspects of my career? Finally, we aiming to do as much good as pause what should I do and then, secondly also start to think about, because that is often just global poverty as well, and it tends to be the face that within the community at the moment that cause areas that people think are the very most pressing, our global health and development, still for sure, but then also factory farming. Where again, this is such a vast amount of suffering, which is completely unnecessary. And then also preservation of the long bone, future of humanity and worrying about risks of global Catac
fifty things that may be fairly unlikely, but would be very, very bad if they did happen, especially relating to new technology like novel pathogens, sort of could design in the lab and so on. We are also very concerned with a eyes: well right: artificial intelligence, yeah, that's exactly right, and that's I think in this category of if you look at the history of human progress, technological change, just cleats these huge step changes and just how he manatee progress is so it was only twelve years. Nineteen, nine one thousand nine hundred and thirty three to nineteen four, five between LEO Szilard, first coming up with the idea of the nuclear chain reaction, and that was just a purely conceptual idea on a bit of paper, twelve years from that to then the deployment of the first nuclear bomb and think how change that is, having suddenly being nuclear. That was only twelve Yeah. We went over the invention of
airplane to dropping an atomic bomb out of the airplane, and I believe it was fifty years right somewhere in the neighborhood of fifty years. Yeah, isn't that take a few, so technological progress can suddenly go in these huge leaps that were not prepared for the wet, often very, not prepared for, and, I think, artificial intel. This is in this context, the where we're really making a radical cloak lesson in a I, especially over the last five years. It's really one of the fastest developing technologies. I think, and yet has huge potential and so many different ways as with any new technology, huge positive potential. Really, if you get a I light, you can solve almost any other problem, but also potential risks as well, where there is risk that might be more familiar. You know what is about what the Matian Unemployment and what he's about autonomous weapons, which I think should be taken seriously and then also just worries about well, what? If we could?
We do manage to make human level artificial intelligence is very good arguments that would then quickly move the super human level, artificial intelligence. And what then, are we now in a situation like the neanderthals versus homo sapiens, where we've suddenly created this intelligence that is greater than our own I'll, be able to control that are we able to ensure that transition is positive and negative have you ever considered the possibility, when you look at all the impoverished people in the world, all the cruelty, all the people that were are so just concerned with material possessions and shallow thinking and the just evil that men do. Is it possible? that we're sort of an outdated concept that what we are as biological organisms that are still slaves to the whole darwinian evolutionary survival of the fittest, natural
selection, sort of the time that we've operated under for all these many thousands and hundreds of thousands of years as humans, that we are giving birth to the next thing that just like. We do not long for the days when we used to be monkeys, throwing shit at each other from the trees. One day we will be something different, whether it would be a combination of us and these machines or weather. We are going to augment our own it gyms with some sort of artificial whether it's a some sort of an exo brain or something that's going Take us the network. It's going to be. I believe that we we create artificial intelligence. Artificial Intel This is no longer has used for us because we're a logical and then that becomes the new life form and then hide in the cave somewhere, hoping the terminators don't get us yeah. I mean, I think
over the long term, I mean with all of these things. The question of kind of timelines is very hot, and sometimes people want to reject this sort discussion, because oh this is so far in the future, whereas I think like, if Bing sufficiently important, we should be, talking about it, even if maybe it's decades generations, hence it might not be right. I mean it might not be that far away, but who knows like with the atomic bomb that was hugely fast progress. Just you know, twelve years, so we want to be prepared. I'm but then has for like yeah, is it going to be homo sapiens around for the next in one thousand years time? I think that would just be extreme unlikely that will be around you think we I can be around anymore yeah. I mean, I think, if intelligent creatures is still around, it's going to be some in a thousand years time. It's gonna be something that's not homo sapiens. Like you said this kind of free. It's like not what we
you can consider kind of typical humans. Now we're obviously severely flawed right. I mean if, if you ask people, if you have, person. Do you think that in your lifetime. You can imagine a world without war. Most people say no, like the vast majority of people say no, the or a world without crime a world without violence, a world without theft, most people say no that's that just shows you how inherently flawed most people view the human species? You know, we know that we can do it in small groups. You know like if the three of us were on an island. I am pretty sure we would be stealing from each other and murder each other right, just a few of us, but when you get to heart scale. Humanity comes very easy to disassociate or create this diffusion of responsibility. Where there's enough people, so you don't really value them as much and you're allowed to get away with some pretty heinous stuff specially, when you consider drone warfare or things that were able to do with long distance or not see
being the person that we're having the effect on yeah. Absolutely it's a very flawed thing. The human species it would be better if something better came along sorta yeah. I think I, though not well yeah. I mean well where we're gonna be obsolete in a hundred years. Anyway, I mean, as in will be that right. So the question is: just com will kind of you know generations. Hence will you know not the questions really about us? It's about augmented children really forces the idea to be considered what is valuable about life like is it the experience? Is it happy now Is it shared fun? is it love like what is? what's valuable about being a person, and how much of that is going to change if we There are made out of something that people have created or or
maybe were made out of something artificial intelligence has created because we've created something that is far superior to us so yeah I mean I have a view on this, as you might expect, where I mean, in my view, the it's valuable and the only thing out, that's valuable, ultimately is conscious experience. So that's good post, like red, conscious experiences, happy to happiness, joy and so on. That's positive, that's good! For the world, a negative consequences, suffering pain, This this there's are bad for the world, and so that's why you know it's a good thing for me to do some service to you to benefit you, but I can't do anything good to benefit this bottle of water right and so then the key question in terms of what should we think about? Supposing is the case that you know a thousand years time is now synthetic life, it's artificial intelligence or something that's
the like in charge and there are no longer any humans. Would this be good or bad? The question for me is, you know: are they having conscious experiences in other's conscious experiences, good about. So that's it just conscious experience. So it's a constant so selfish. It's a controversial view. There's a experiment, which is often used to challenge this view. Do you want to hear that? Yes, so it's called the experience machine you could. Again to this machine like the most amazing v are you could ever have and in this machine you will live for. Let's say you live two hundred, you yes and you'll be in the most amazing bliss. You have the most amazing experiences of
experiences will involve incredible elation ships, incredible creative achievement and so on and it'll just be like the perfect life to live exponentially for the next two hundred years, and the question is in so far as yourself insisted so put aside considerations you might have about wanting to make the world a better a spot, just in so far as you can about yourself. Would you plug into this thing, bearing in mind that a certain sense, all of these experiences gonna, be fake, you're gonna, have experiences of having amazing friendships, wing, great works of art and faith in great works of art, and so on, but they're not gonna, bill is just censor the inputs provided by a computer. So the question: would you all you in so far as yourself, instead plug into this machine? What would you? What would you answer? That's a very
question I might already be plugged into it right. I mean you know so this is this is a great question and I think it's a good argument, since it is the question well supposing plugged in you unplug, supposing in told you that actually you're the banker, Monaco and FUCK monaco- I'm not interested in that. No, I want to stay right here, so it can put in place to have to pay more. What to do. You would have enough, but it's interesting, then, if people think so most people and it seemed like- maybe yourself would he'd say no, I wouldn't plug into this machine I don't know if I would say that I would have to really deeply consider. It is right now, it's just so it's so abstract this idea that that could possible, and so it's it's fantasy, we're having fun. But when you talk to the leading minds when it come, seems to virtual reality or artificial reality or simulation theory. You know when they
start talking about what will be possible one day, they're gonna without a doubt, within one hundred years, five hundred years or whatever the number is, create an artificial reality. It's indiscernible from this reality you're going to be able to feel things, there's going to be emotions that come to you, you're, going you're going to be able to recreate every single aspect of an everyday life. It's just a matter of time. I mean there really close now and not not really in terms of like I'll give you emotions, and they don't give you feeling. But if you put on HTC Vive and go through some of those virtual reality games. I mean it's bizarre how real it feels and when you go back to like playing pong, did you ever played polo absolutely ppp you know it's such a weird thing that that he and inside of when I was a kid pool, he came along, we were blown away. We couldn't believe that we could actually do something on the television you could see it move. It was so fantastic and if you gay
that to one of my kids they spit on it. It would be like what kind of he's a video game, is this like they would think it's just so ridiculous, but to me at the time it was amazing. You go from that to these h, T C five games, which is all taken place within my lifetime, and you go well a lifetime from now. If you follow the exponential increase in the visibility of the technological innovation, it's going to be spectacular. It's going to be absolutely so. When that does happen, how will you be able to know double? How will you know if you're in and how do you know if you're not in it right now, that's the real question right yeah. I mean that actually some arguments for thinking. You know this is Nick Bostrom, a colleague of mine, the simulation argument for thinking we are in a simulation right now. In fact, it's very likely that we should be yeah that I that I act, I'm kind of agnostic. I think you should take the hot the apophysis seriously hi I'm, but I think the the argument doesn't quite go through for
what's attractive and what's not attractive about that there. You are his his version of it yeah. So the argument is that frame and if you could let his yeah yeah yeah. So his argument is that in the future, supposing we believe that, The human race doesn't go extinct post humans, humans go extinct over the next thousand thousand years, secondly, that the people in the future have an interest in I'm recreating the past, just the kind of historical interest of learning they're gonna be insistent running sick, because then I got not gonna have huge amazing computer power. They gonna be able to create simulations of the past that that can have some interesting learning, similar tions of the past. Well, the number of, if that is true, then the number of simulations that these future people are gonna be running will vastly outnumber the number of actual timelines that kind of base universe as it were,
so for the one real universe where history is kind of unfolds. There's also, Let'S- call it ten thousand simulations of that universe. Then it's the case that will go and I'm just you know these things that we are indiscernible for the people who are inside them is overwhelmingly likely just in the base late that I'm going to be in a simulation rather than in the real world says, actually is not that we definitely on a simulation, but he just points out the conflict between these three kind of belief that we could seem to hold one. Is that where not gonna go extinct in your future? Two is that you know people in the future will have some interesting, simulating the past and thirdly,
we're not living in a simulation, and he himself gives you know a reasonable degree of belief thanks ten percent likely fifteen percent likely that within a simulation are the people who understand the argument value more, but I think you know it's something you should at least be taken seriously. I'm the reason I object to is kind of. Even we had us, I think in it's somewhat technical I'm, but the basic thought is just the according to like the best guesses from cause muscle motorists well actually in an infinite universe. The universe is infinitely pick now we can't affect an infinitely big universe where the selected, by the speed of light to what we can affect on to what we can see. I am but the best idea,
according to the best thing that we have universe to scan it keeps on going. But if so, then, this old lady, like an infinite number of observers, of people kind of in that bottom universe, and that means that you've now got kind of an infinite number of people kind of experiencing things, and then you've got the simulations you got like ten thousand simulations, but you can't say ten thousand times as many simulated beings as the number of legal beings. Constantly, I don't know, go ahead, keep going. But that means, if you got so the key of the Boston's argument was that you got one thousand times as many simulated beings as you have real, like non simulated beings, but the problem is, is an infinite number of real beings, because the universe is infinite, yeah, that's right and so
if you've already got an infinite number of real beings. The fact that you've got ten dozen times infinite that still infinite, and you can't kind of a case where, like best methods of assigning degrees, of belief to things kind of run out, if you think it's there's an infinite number of simulated beings, an infinite number of real beings. Then what's the chance, you being one of the other, I mean like. We don't actually have the like tools to be able to answer that Neil Degrasse Tyson was trying to explain this to me a couple of weeks ago. There are infinity, these that are bigger than other infinities. So that's also the case, but open my brain again, so the number but the key, where all talking about the lowest, was called cardinality, the smallest infinity, which is the size of the infinity of all the integers one thousand two hundred and thirty, four accounting,
this, and if you take that size of infinity and multiply it by ten thousand, let's say you just get the same number, which is infinity right. I and then what Neil was saying was yeah these even bigger levels of infinity? So if you look at not just all the eating numbers, but all of the numbers you can make flexions out of a half a quarter and eighth, and so that's a bigger, that's just more numbers than the infinity of the counting numbers. We spent a lot of time trying to understand why human beings are so obsessed with innovation, why human beings are so obsessed with technological progress So I continued to come to is that we think of everything in this world as being natural, but the behavior, butterflies and wolves and the way rivers run down from the mountain, but we don't think of ourselves and our own behavior as natural
think of our own thirst for conquest and innovation and the even materialism. I think materialism is probably a very natural reaction to our need to. Somehow or another fuel innovation, and that one of the ways to ensure that innovation is constantly fueled is that people are constantly obsessed with buying new things, constantly obsessed with the Houston greatest, which fuels innovation, and you look at the universe itself and you look but all the various things that we know to be natural processes in the universe like liked, in order to make a human being, star has to explode when you literally are made out of stardust when you run that by p for the first time they go wait. What like in order to, you free to carbon based life form that has to created inside a burning dying star, and that's the only way you make this thing like what you are right now and then that thing
makes artificial reality and then that thing makes perhaps even crazier makes. I mean if you follow the ideas of technological progress. If something gets to a point where it's indiscernible from reality, how do you know it's not a new reality? How do you it's not a new kind of reality, like Jamie sent me hip to these artificial worlds. People have created it online where there are essentially infinite and constantly changing and morphing and growing, and the games are terrible. People don't like him because you go, you go to places there's enough in there and you can go to an incident number these places and there's nothing there. These adventures are nonexistent, so you're on these you're in these gigantic fake worlds, were you traveling from the place, but right now we're looking at it in a very two dimensional way: you're looking at it on a flat screen, one, it's not going to be two dimensional one day. It's going to be some
thing that you're interfacing with your consciousness is interfacing with it, is it only real if we can take it drop it? something, if we can hit it with a hammer, if we could put it on a scale, if we could use a measuring stick in measuring, is it only real there or Is it real if it follows every single check like if you check off every single item on the list of con this reality and conscious experience yeah, I think that's a great question 'cause. I think the dichotomy that a lot of people think in terms of of natural non natural. I think it's just meaningless. People firstly think his natural. Mrs, not I mean in a sense of the thing, we're doing is not to the old because wait like I'm Sabians of part of a natural process and in another,
maybe in another sense having we're doing is not natural, but then why does that matter? What's the model that developments of something being natural versus not not full rent lots of stuff that happens in the natural world is just really awful huge amounts of cannibalism they might like yeah Muda suffering. So it's not clear why we would care about something being natural wealth and unnatural, but then the second question is yeah. Let's consider this virtual reality again, this experience machine you could plug yourself into and as part of the description I said. Oh none of this would be real. You have all of these connections with people that you think are friends and so on, but that wouldn't be a meal. And I think you could very well push back on that and say why should something be physically instantiate e'd in order for it to count is over you'll experience?
Is it not the case that in this virtual reality, your interacting with algorithms, but that's just as much at least as possible, for that to be just as much friendship is if you're, interacting with people who you know flesh and blood, and I think it's hard to explain kind of what the difference would be, because you know, if you think about STAR Trek usually put car, can be friends with data and I'm Lloyd, he's not kind of Bio Biological, but you know, we think that you can still have kind of model, worsen, friendships and so on with creatures that are not made of kind of human biology, in which case, why is the fact that something merely lives on silicone? Why wouldn't that was kind of seemingly merely software. What does that mean? You couldn't have a kind of a genuine friendship without thing, if it, if it acts in a sufficiently sophistic,
did way? Perhaps isn't there also an issue with are incredibly limited ability to view reality itself, 'cause we're only viewing the dimensions that are relevant to us in this current state of car, turn based life form this? This talking be cleaned to the spaceship flying to the universe. This is important to us, but when you pay attention to those that do to write on yellow legal pads and they get in a quantum physics and they have all those crazy equations that nobody but them understands. Maybe you do I look at that shadow. What the fuck are they writing, but they I believe I mean what is the current model. They believe there's at least eleven dimensions perhaps could be more. What if There is a dimension that you can plug into that it's purely con. Instrument, meaning there's no physical exam there's no touching the ground? There's no gravity, but you exist in a conscious state and its perpetual like if you take a rocket ship and it get
past our gravity and shoots off into distant space, and you have a clear shot of fourteen billion years back to the beginning of the universe itself, with nothing in the way you're just going to keep going for fourteen billion. In light years, you're just going to keep going like would have. There is a place that your consciousness can go to like that, where it's, how long are burdened by biology the timeline of birth to death by the limitations of the flesh but conscious s itself can exist, but in some bizarre dimension that we just haven't access to so yeah. I mean, I think, consciousness This is probably just ultimately physical process, and why do you think that in ultimately 'cause of conservation of energy The reason being so, you know this is age old, philosophical debate between
the Mona Yosondua lists, people who think is consciousness just ultimately some sort of physical process, or is it something special? So Descartes thought there was this peniel gland gland, there's a little bit of your brain and your conscious kind of soul was just going to stealing your like monkey body food the Oakland. The question is just for why the I think, the song, this argument about why that couldn't be right is it seems to be like it would have to be creating energy out of no where and we've never. This seems to be just fixed law of the universe. That just can't happen, because in order for me, you know this conscious mind to if it's not merely a physical process. If it's not just the plain in order for it to be able to affect what this physical entity is doing, it would have to use energy to be able to do that.
The energy would have to be coming from somewhere and if it's not coming from just the physical realm, then suddenly we got this counterexample to all Rest of science sort of. But you aware of the theories of human wrote, transmitters being pathways to other dimensions like Dimethyltryptamine, didn't know about all that about DMT, just in the pineal gland, where Descartes thought that all stuff was going on the seat of the soul. The Egyptians called the eye of forests and the reason why the Catholics in so many ancient religions were so focused on pine cones in their their art in their their imagery. That's the pie, Neil gland. It's that that's the the image of it, that's what it supposed to represent and for people have had these intense transformative, psychedelic experiences by consuming exogeneous dimethyltryptamine, which is produced by the brain that you have these insane transformative experiences where you feel like you are traveling to other dimensions yeah, so I think I mean I do want to say like have you done any of that? I've
never done. Dmt sonofabitch will not. What are you doing you're your time? I know it was such a good boy, but but it's something that's in the brain. I mean it's a natural product of human biology. I mean whether it's natural or not, isn't the question. Just you know. If I'm going to have a clear based on my brain, I want to be very careful to tonight make it did not break it. Yeah yeah, but it's one of the most transient drugs ever observed in the body. Your body brings it back to baseline in, like fifteen minutes. I am because I mean there's a lot of. I do think there's like tons of very often greatly overestimate risks of non legal drugs like MDMA, six of the safe and so on. It has also estimate the list. There is a risk that we sang yeah, that's the MDMA, yeah yeah, any amaze, weird right, that's a weird one. It's it's not a natural drug dime. So tryptamine. I think the real concern would be psychological, because what
your face is so bizarre, Terence Mckenna Mckenna had the best quote about it. I think he said that You would risk death by astonishment yeah. Ok, so I think it's so bizarre that it's almost a sin for a guy as smart as you did not experience it. But would you just come right back in your you, even when you're there you're there makes you it's not like you, your consciousness, dissolves into some bizarre quasi living state and they have to like work your way back. To being you again now, you're you you're will Mccaskill in the dimension, whatever the fuck it is, but what's a crazy about it is that this is produced in the very area where Descartes was believing that we did. The soul is in so many different eastern religions and all this Khalaj Ikle, like all these different all these different. Religions and all these different cultures,
they were all convinced at that? One gland had some massive significance in terms of the, spirit in the soul. Whatever that means, whenever spirit means so yeah. So then the question is just in these experiences. Is it the case, though you're like seeing into genuinely seeing into another dimension, or is it the case We just have a new kind of perspective on consciousness, so one thing I do think is the in terms of conscious experience is the soul of conscious experiences that humans have access to, and I think that must just be zero point: zero, zero one percent out of the entire landscape of possible, conscious experiences. So if you think imagine if you're a bat and you could echolocate, that's just a radically different conscious experience, I don't think that maps into any sort of conscious experience that you things could have? Have you seen people do that, and I know that the people who are blind people can do that. It's pretty amazing. That is amazing, very affectively too. It's like shockingly effectively yeah. I think you
you absolutely right. I mean but there's also experiences human experiences that are available without drugs that some p We have achieved through radical states of meditation and Kundalini yoga where they could achieve. Natural psychedelic states. Breathing people that have done that have experience like really radical psychological transformations, an incredible psychedelic experiences from that as well yeah, and so I think, like experiences are very important, very interesting and what they said that maybe we experience is zero point zero, one percent of all possible conscious experiences and This, allows you to do like see a little bit more of this potential vast landscape. Well, as I think, but I think there's nothing on magical about saying. Ultimately, that's all explained in terms of physics and terms of different sorts of neurons firing into most of our transmitters and so on? We don't need to say, oh, and it's also this other thing which makes all the
known laws of physics that you're seeing into some other dimension. In order for that to be an incredibly important thing, an in order to unscientific to say we know almost nothing about consciousness in terms of the areas of scientific inquiry, we no understanding at all about the relationship between conscious experiences, and you know what we would think of as physical process really have no idea about. You know if you take give me any sufficiently complicated physical processes which which a conscious, and or not all we can go on as they leave. This will I'm conscious, and so I know that things that kind of like MIA, probably conscious too, and that's the best we've got really, and this is known as a hard problem of consciousness and fly. Is often say that they've solved it with something, and I think it's always begging the question. I think we should be very open to the fact that just as in three thousand BC
people had no idea about the laws of physics. This was just completely unexplored, headed to the we should think contemporary science. This is just a big like big black gap in our scientific understanding, and perhaps it's something maybe 21st century science, maybe 22nd- the science. Can we get to grips with it? It does seem like the ultimate question like what is it four. Why is he here? What controls it is it in the mind? Is it external? Is the brain just to an antenna that tunes into consciousness the the the Dimethyl trip The main question is so bizarre because it's the most potent psychedelic drug known to man and your brain makes it what's in there. For I don't know if this is a myth, I've heard it what gets made when you die
yeah that they believe that, during high rates of stress, your body believes you're going to die and when you're dreaming, when you're in heavy rem sleep, your body produces larger amounts of it, then den baseline. But they don't know it's really difficult. They've. Only just now, within the last few years, the cotton Wood Research foundation, which doctor Strassman has a big part of it, he's a guy who wrote the book DMT in the Spirit molecule. He did a bunch of the first FDA, approved dry drug trials with civilians where they took people and he gave them a schedule, one drug dimethyltryptamine, which is so crazy that it's a schedule, one drug, your body produces. They gave it to be, but intravenously over the course of several months and they documented all the different trips and all the different diff commonality is that these people had in their experiences and
he's working very closely with the cotton wood Research foundation and one of the things that they found is that they've recently discovered it was just anecdotal evidence. It was produced by the pineal gland. We knew the DMD was just by the liver and the lungs. But now they know for sure because, if isolated it in rats so in living rats, they know that they produce DMT with the Pinyo gland, so that that explains a lot of ancient eastern mysticism and all the Cymbala symbology this, all these symbols that people had to represent these gland. Now they know, ok, well. This gland definitely does produce this incredibly potent psychedelic drugs. But now the question is at what levels during war, but periods of stress like do you have to bring something to the point of death before they experience this, and if that is the case, is it possible that consciousness itself is something that we you know since we haven't really figured out? What exactly it is? Is it possible that conscious this can travel through
is chemical pathway that maybe these intense dimethyltryptamine experiences are in fact a gateway to what people have assumed exists from the beginning of time like an afterlife or a sea of souls, or some getting some some stage of existence other than this physical existence that we all experience right now, yeah, so I mean I feel like I'd, be like crazy talk right. It sounds like they say it's coming out of my mouth, I'm going! What what are you talking about? Do I mean, I think I just be supplies of consciousness was just this one chemical. I think it's much more likely that something is this emergent phenomena from this incredibly complex system of you know billions of different, your arms filing in a certain way and when you have a certain process that sufficiently complex in the right way. Somehow- and this is just this big black box- that you've got no idea
so somehow subjective experience comes out of that, but it would seem I mean otherwise the issues you could have just DMT traveling in just a test tube or something and petri dish, and it would seem like oh, is this petri dish conscious, that would seem really strange. Why would that be the case? if you're breathing, air and you know. The error keeps you alive, like your breathing in and bringing that you don't think that air carries the life with it to another place. Air is just component of life, it's something that your body requires. So I mean it's possible. Maybe it's the case, though again I feel like be surprised if it's like this chemical is necessary. Consciousness, and so I'm not saying it's necessary, but I am curious as to how consciousness varies consciousness. Their consciousness and the actual feeling of being alive varies depending upon your health, depending behind stress levels, depend
Coupon, love and happiness, and all these different factors change the way. You view the world which is really interesting because in a in effect that changes consciousness and you can be more. You know you can be more elevated, like you can uh turn to you all this effective, altruism, that you're concentrating on is somehow another elevating your consciousness, because you're putting out so much love and much happiness and you're helping so many people, there's so many positive benefits to your very existence. I've gotta manage I've. Gotta be rather that somehow or another that manages to come back to you. I mean it definitely back to me in kind of how I feel about my life. I mean well talking about how your money is not the key to a happy life. The questions will what is and the answers are having a great community I'm having a greater purpose. Life, I'm feeling like you're, making a difference so uh
all reasons these. Why so we built up this kind, a community event, effective, altruism, you know, people around the world who are making a significant change so, for example, donating ten percent of their income to the charities, they think are most effective or pursuing a career that we think is really effective, and one thing I wasn't surprising from the outside, but I'm so happy happened- is that the strong community is formed. It's kind of like a little global village or something and people have found that actually far from being a sacrifices you might have expected, is actually incredibly rewarding. Becaus you've now got this community of. People who have shared aims to you and the old working towards the place to go and that's something that I think is very lacking in the world today low, so many people just trying to five- and you know they have a nice time on the weekend, but they're like where there's all of this going
end of my life, I'm not really going to think yeah. I made the most of this, whereas if you think at the end of your life, like yup, I dedicated my life to helping others, and I had this transformative impact on thousands of people, you're not going to think at the end of your life gee, I really wasted. That is just something I don't think you can really look about. If you go deep, though down the philosophical rabbit hole and you really consider that life is this temporary experience and even benefiting someone through this temporary experience is still a temporary experience. It's like you are helping. Somebody gave them a pillow for the ride and it's a temporary ride. The ride comes to an end and then one and then what is point of all this like what is the point of effective, altruism, if you're, just helping people during this temporary ride, that doesn't seem to mean anything. So I think there's two things I blow it out myself. I can do that too. Just raise up. I just go with the flow.
Freak myself out. Well, we do get freaked out at this thank God because existential ants, yeah, so angst of existence. So I think this to. I think it's two answers here. Okay, the first is that the light is the like goal right, ultimately again, if you think the purpose of life is to increase the amount of happiness in the deuce, the amount of suffering. The final goal is good experiences and the kind of anti goal is bad experiences. So when we're sitting here talking having a great time, this is us kind of achieving. This is getting points in the win counter. So having a good time, that's like- If we were really hating. This then we'd be losing well even more so because we're broadcasting this live and mill things that people are going to hear it and hopefully having hopefully there enjoying it, and maybe, if they're not at least
this little stress relief, like maybe there at the gym and all these idiots Kevin Allen, squats and they're getting angry yeah. So I think that's the first thing, but then the second thing is The lates to this idea of cosmic significance, where what the most of it. So you say I was just along for the ride: we're all going to get eaten up by the sun, eventually and so on. What's the can activate a purpose of life. I actually think there are some ways. The our actions now can have much greater cosmic significance, and that say, if that's because I think if you think that the human race survived for the next few centuries, it seems kind of inevitable that we're gonna spit stocks, and I think that would be good again. From this perspective, I'm going to Morgan City, one of just saying what we want to do-
promote happiness and reduce suffering. If that means we can live on other planets as well and have kind of fighting civilizations they're, not only whether people are having great lies, but also making scientific artistic contributions and so on. I'm then that's a good thing to do as well. Well, there's no technological reason for thinking that we won't be able to do that in the future, given couldn't wait to technological progress unless something really bad happens along the way and this kind of gets back to one of the things we talked about right. The stock was one of the
focus areas of effect. Filters and community is on content of its use, arabesques from of human extinction of global catastrophic risks. These are the sorts of things that codes impaneled the human journey as it were, I'm, and I think that, if you're working to mitigate some of these things, then you're increasing the chance that we do get to the sort of level where him not yet. Humanity can have a fighting future, not just on this planet but on other planets as well, and that actually means your actions really do. Have this huge cosmic significance, so the conscious effort to be a kind person, a generous person, an effective, altruism, spreads, Anet Imp tax people. There's this ripple effect. An your good deed could perhaps
fuel enough people with this thought and with effective, altruism and more people might act on that. To the point where we reduce the amount of suffering to the point where we extend the lives one of human beings. We extend the areas where we have no war. We reduce the amount of violence to the port. We can successfully innovate to the point where you can get off this planet. That's that then start from scratch with a new dictator on Mars Trump on Mars. How about that yeah I mean, so I think they were voting on Mars well, if he could become president of Mars, I'd be pretty happy with that, be fascinating. That would have to go to war with Mars. Do you think so I mean I've wondered about this many many times. I wonder if it's an outdated idea, this idea of traveling to the stars and again I back to this whole interdimensional thing that I wonder if that's the reason why we have never been visited by other planets by species from another planet, maybe that's not what happens? Maybe they develop artificial realities, maybe like with J.
I was talking about to me with these artificial computer realities like if, if someone develops sort of a matrix like world where you can plug into an experience, an infinite number of things in an infinite number of artificially created dimensions that are indistinct, People from this? Why would you want to like risk a six month trip in a metal tube too and planet planning? Maybe that's really retro. Maybe that's a really ancient way of looking at things. Maybe it's like zeppelins big flying balloons. Instead of you know so, yeah. The question you've layers is called the Fermi paradox rights. Is just given the so so one hundred billion stars in our galaxy eight billion galaxies in the effect Obel Universe, one hundred billion in the observable universe
The universe is also pretty old, fifteen billion years old. So if it was the case that life is very common, that it's very easy for us to life to then developed a level of advanced technological ability, we should expect to see evidence of aliens all over the browns, but you You see absolutely none somewhere along the path from habitable planet to space faring civilization. There must be some big filter. There must be some step, that's just incredibly hard for that or it could be unlikely that civilization moves them. Life not step to another, and one hypothesis is this yeah like people just civilization gets to sufficiently advanced level and just chill out there or they go internally yeah. They go internal. The issue
an explanation, I think is, is just not strong enough, because you know you'd have to think that that's for this kind of filter to work has to be a really strong filter filter. Yeah as in like because there's just so many stars, so many earth, so many seemingly habitable planets right. It has to be the case that it's exceptionally unlikely at some stage of other, like not just really unlikely, as in like You know one in a trillion one likely to on this path from habitable planet, to space, fitting civilization and so you'd have to think, like over two million civilizations that get to this level of technological ability. The old shoes to turn inward, I'm not seems, is very unlikely. It seems like well at least
on weds really find spread out, and if so, then we see evidence of that, because, because Makley speaking the time for them getting to the level of technological capability, where you can spread to the stars and the level where we'd be able to going to see a real evidence of that is kind of small. So I actually think that the reason that we can't see aliens is because the very first stages of life and credit unlikely the move from nothing to kind of basic of application and then, secondly, the move from single celled organisms to multi celled organisms and the reason for thinking this is very unlikely. Is it took an incredibly long time on earth billions of years before this happened and in particular in the move from single cell to multi celled life? That's only ever happened,
and so, given that we don't see any aliens, we think some part of this is really hot. Our best guess is that that that moved from single cell to multi celled- and perhaps we could be the creation of the fat cells as well. That was incredibly difficult, and that means that it would just exceptionally lucky to be alive as it were. But if the universe is infinite, that means that this has happened, an infinite number of times. That's right, though it might, but the very far away from like sufficiently far away that we are not connected to it like we can contact each other serve each other, but there's an infinite number of those. Infinitely far places so they would be. There would be some like clusters of the you know and again the idea of the universe, and for that it's only a hypothesis right and I'm just deferring to other people who say it's. The leading wealth of some of the the most puzzling hypothesis to me, was the evidence of
super massive black holes being at the center of every galaxy and the hypothesis was that the supermassive black holes are exactly one slash two of one percent of the mass of the entire galaxy and then, if you go through both super massive black holes. You may, in fact go into a completely new universe. Filled with hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with super massive black holes at the center of those galaxies, which will take you too HUN words of billions of galaxies in another universe and that it's never ending and that's what the real infinity is. It's not is the mass of all the things that we can serve in the fourteen plus billion light years that we know of from the Big bang today, it's all of those things being portals to incredibly different totally new universes. Yes, it's turtles all the way down turtles, all the way down. So the the real question to me- and this
we had this- proposes to Brian Cox- and I didn't get a sufficient answer. Why would we assume that there's someone more advanced than us like it is pause that someone some species- something is the tip of the spear- Something is the first that something is the most advanced life form in the universe. Why would we assume that someone, would be more advanced than us if we are the most advanced thing that we can find. The only logic that I could point to was that that we are relatively young in terms of the history in the age of the universe itself, the universe itself being roughly fourteen billion years old. We are four dot six. What are we What is what is the age of the earth somewhere in there sounds a bit like somewhere in the neighborhood right really young, when you consider the ten billion years of life Giver take happen or existence happened before we came along.
But why would we assume that there's anything out there that's more advanced, and why would we assume that this isn't as far as anybody's ever gotten yeah. I mean it's so in a in turn, infinity right? Eighteen billion years seems like a long time, but in terms infinity it's a blank, so I think we should believe that in the again, let's now just teach the infinity and just think about the observable you worse, which is finite, is people pulled over sweating in their car right now, yeah yeah, exactly infinity! Graham's number. This is of Graham's number. I don't believe so, with screens number got known as the large Number ever seriously used in the mathematical proof and TIM Urban of weight, but why has this amazing post trying to explain just how big grams number there's and that you have to use a special notation in order to be able to explain it and number just get really big, and once you really start to think this through you just like your left,
just kind of walking back and forth, like yeah, not like, just untenable, kicked out yeah for our little monkey, mind million is so big billion is just speck of dust computer. But even a trillion years, a speck of dust when you consider the possibility of the universe itself being infinite or the possibility that is the continuous cycle of big bangs, to expansion, to contraction back to an infinitely small point back to another, big bang, which is a plausible possibility? Yeah I mean, I think. Yeah, I'm also I'm very well. You know, I'm not, I'm not Neil Degrasse Tyson butchering tons of the science I think my understanding at the moment is that we currently think that the universe is just expanding and it just keeps expanding forever. I know it's definitely leading theory that was going to expand and slow and then kind of fun. Yes, but you mentioned humans being the most advanced kind of creature. I think that probably is correct in the observed
or certainly our galaxy. Let's say well, we know it is in our solar system right yeah, that's right, But I think we know it is in our galaxy as we think so and again the reason so far. But the thing is that far is like one hundred in light years, but when you're thinking about but when you're thinking about fifteen billion years of the age of the universe, that's actually just a very short right, but why would you assume that one hundred thousand light years from now there is not? something exactly like us, so it's possible. But the thing is that if it was somewhat easy or if it was just not incredibly difficult for intelligent life to evolve move, then it would have happened in the past already and we would see evidence of it and the fact that we don't see any evidence at all of intelligent life. On other solar systems like at all suggest, it's incredibly difficult for that to happen, but isn't it like being in the woods an unzipping, your ten,
and stick your head out and saying: I don't see anything. This must be empty woods. It's more. Like I mean You were talking about a very small area that we've observed and we've taken account of. So I think it's more like, because I think an alien civilization for us in the future goes to kind of stock act. Yeah spending to the stars in the course of you know of just a few seconds. May yes, let's say that will be really significant evidence. You'd see, Dyson Spheres being constructed, abound sons, you know to harness the sun's energy. You see some evidence of like electric engineering project and so on. It will
a really big impact. You'd see that with hundreds, the thousands of light years between us and the observable objects, but again the hundred thousand light years is just not very long compared to the kind of fifteen billion. So it would just be this amazing coincidence. If it's the case that he I am a life, that's as advance, more advanced than us has evolved just the same time as us, where hundred thousand years give or take his basic just the same time that hasn't evolved in the hasn't involved more than a million years ago, where we would start to see kind of major impact of that. So If something within the observable universe. We've observed so little: we don't even have really adequate photographs of anything outside of our solar system. Everything is just radio spectrum
the analysis is that they're getting off of light waves of what the components of the atmosphere is an so using analogy. What I'm suggesting is that I'm if it was the case that alien life was like not intelligent, life is not that hard to come by. You. Stick your head up a tent and you'd. Look like Tokyo, I wasn't looking like the words big? Why does it have to look like Tokyo? Why can't look like Kansas? What can I build big really spread out and very little life 'cause. I think if life is spreading out, then it's just going to want to what is life? Do it just tries to harness resource is in place to grow more than self- maybe it reaches a point where it realizes that few tile. I just concentrates fact of altruism at home bachelor star. That's the turning in would suggest in again, and so maybe it's the case that like yeah like is it more, and to get your shit together at home or to go all over the world with the same bullshit ideas right I mean that's the case
not be the same thing that you could turn towards. Interstellar travel like, wouldn't it be more important for these communities to concentrate on taking care of their planet and figure out a way to work in some sort of a harmonious fashion, with the very nature of the planet itself rather and travel to the stars. I mean possibly but now imagine this. This alien alien planet is ten billion errands and I, like, let's say a thousand years more advanced than humans are of the moment. In order for this argument to work, it have to be get case. Every single one of them makes that decision to just turn inwards and focus on what would that be the case? 'cause. Not all those people would be the ones that would innovate in the first place, wouldn't have to be every and it makes a decision would have to be. Everyone have a high enough consciousness to figure out how to make these interstellar machines decides not to harness this, nuclear power and jet off into space, but I think time that will just that would just be everyone
as well yeah I mean just technological progress just keeps going, and eventually I mean obviously we're doing this like weird thought: experiment right, speculating on like economics and sociology of hypothetical alien world, but. I mean just at some point as that as a civilization progresses, then there's going to at least be many many actors with sufficient. How so it's sort of liability to spend to the stars, and you need to say that every single one of them decides to turn so it's sort of like technology He becomes very rare and then ultimately, overtime becomes very common. Like the cell phone, like so cell phone first invented, it was extremely rare and very expensive. Now everyone has one and the capabilities. Those cell phones have greatly greatly improved and that This will happen with everything, including space travel. Yeah, I mean
so it doesn't need to be the case that gets up to ten billion people. Even if it's just like one thousand people or something again it would just seem unlikely that realization and they have the one that has you know. Even just a thousand people, everyone chooses, not one single person thinks hey. I was one the to be more like rice, but I don't know the that obviously is dependent upon there being a more advanced civilization than human beings on the planet. Earth, because if there weren't, if there a few years behind us like if they're the stuck in the nineteen fifties or maybe they're stuck in ancient Greece or you know, and then then obviously they do have the capabilities. Yet we might be the very most advanced we. We might be the very tip of the spear right yeah. I know I just think yeah, because I think it would be unlikely that something more advanced happened just a little bit faster than us, but not say one hundred million years ago, which is not very long ago right in cosmic terms, but it still pop
simple. I mean it's still possible that something happened one hundred years quicker than us or the they haven't, had the same setbacks that we've had this in terms of like asteroidal impacts, impacts and natural catastrophe. Super volcanoes in the like it's a it's a real weird thought experiment, because you start thinking- and you start extrapolating ok well, where are we going to be? Where are we going to be? Why would we do that? Like that's one of the things that always gets me this whole trip to Mars, and I have a joke about it in love. My last comedy special, people with somebody actually said this to me because it was before California TSA let's drought or mother, nature solve our drought for us rather or people like him, and we should really consider going to Mars because mean look at. Environment? California is almost out of water, and my joke was like a word right next to the Fucking Ocean like there's so much water, you can't see the end of it. We have assault, problem, we now a water problem like what going
in a bring water to Mars. Like this, the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life yeah. This is we are it's. When people start talking about my eyes, I mean, I think so, there's a project to going to mance sing for Mars. Second Coney right now, like the aim of doing that, because it's also totally on board with that in the same way is like going to the moon? It's like look. What we can achieve. This is an exciting like global human photo. So even just the space shuttle going into orbit's, pretty bad ass right, yeah, exactly exactly, but then this like oh well. We need this in order to be able to survive as a species and like look if you want to have this kind of refuge or colony in order to make the earth more robust mars. Just not a great place to pick right, so many different ways, the I mean MAS is like when we were young in hospitable and if you want to build a refuge when I go into the sea, that's like gonna, be protected from viruses or asteroid impacts. Not really, though, if one of those big
things is slander, the Yucatan slams into where your villages in the city, I mean, if you, if you had done this on the water village with you know ten years of food supplies and so on, then you could like come back, because the impact from the asteroid wasn't just like shook everyone office that the sky is going home. This guy's get clouded over with that the earth rang for a million years. Oh what is as in a way impact yeah. That's so interesting! Someone saying when you think about how that thing was that killed the dinosaurs sixty five million years ago. Adele is one thousand of those things floating around in space, so yeah. I was asking some people at NASA just just two days ago. Actually, on how many of them, we've managed to identify 'cause, they're serious about kind of scanning, the skies yeah, fine, and the answer I thought we had it covered. I thought this something that was like yeah yeah. We We know where all the like earth killers are, and they response was like no
no idea, we just we don't know how many of them are out there, and so we don't know how many we've managed to track there's a guy name, Randall Carlson, then I've had my podcast a few times and he's obsessed with the idea that asteroid impacts were probably would ended, the ice age you know, ten to twelve thousand, go and and he's there's a significant amount of physical evidence that points to this both in evidence of impact and nuclear glass. Try. I think it's called try tonight. I forget the exact word, but it here's all throughout Europe and Asia at around that same time, line around ten thousand and twelve thousand years ago, when they do core samples. Points to this idea that there were significant impacts from asteroid, Alot, Jects, all all over Europe and all over Asia around that time. They think some of 'em slam, moved into the ice caps that were North America was covered in a giant chunk.
It was covered in as much as two miles high of ice just tend one thousand years ago, and he points to an incredible amount of physical change in the environment that looks like it took place over a very short period of time like cat, What's traffic changeover, incredibly short amount of time that he believes points to these impacts, melting, the ice caps, creating massive amount of flooding killing off. Who knows how many people resetting civilization in many different parts of the world, and this evidence of these a nuclear glass of these micro diamonds? That also exist. They find during a nuclear test sites when they blow off arms and they also find them at asteroidal impact sites. You know when you know that we have been hit many times in the past and they do have evidence of that, and then you see the moon and all the different impact craters on the moon. He know that this is just what he calls a car cosmic shooting gallery essentially he's like
it's very likely that that was the cause of the end of the ice age. There's a a lot of this climate data that sort of seems to point to that as well. So this so this is now like really outside man, we have expertise. Also I'll send you some links to some of his stuff. 'cause he's been obsessed with this for about thirty years fascinating guy? The two things that would really surprise me about that. Firstly, just that so many ice ages, and it just seemed to be this. It comes on, goes off sure, yeah, the you know, fairly dynamic protectable process. Well, as asteroid impacts, super random, so you wouldn't expect to have this kind of back and forth dynamic if it was asteroids that was doing it and then. Secondly, my understanding would be the asteroids would cool the planet, because asteroid hits ash just spreads out all over this guy that just blocks out suddenly. So it would Plies me if it had this kind of warming effect, I think the idea is that, first of all, when it hits it, the in
fact is massive and it melts off just a huge chunk of the amount of water that is covering North America right and that's one of the things that causes this massive flooding in this massive changing of the topography. As far as like what causes the net, I don't know if it interrupts it temporarily, and then it his back and gets warmer, but the uh that natural cycle of warming cooling has been going on since they from as far back as they can measure it. What he's talking about is significant quick changes, also the function event that kill somewhere around sixty five percent or more of all of the large mammals in North America really quickly, like woolly mammoths, really quickly see every time they don't know about that. There's a lot of speculation back and forth about that, because they were think that humans did it, but then they found these mass dead sites where there not consumed- and this was the one-
and these showed where these Willy Mammoth they found them with the their legs were broken and it looks like they just the impact of of something had knock them flat, sound like thousands of them in these mass death sites and sing. But I thought that the so first there just seems to me like the homo. The idea is humans, killing them all to seems like crazy. No, I thought, just like seems like such a good exponentially didn't even have speed. They had battle out also, but then I was like the best weapon. They have the time they weren't even riding on horseback at the time, but then, with respect to the death sites, I thought the mechanism for killing a woolly mammoths. You've got like you know two hundred humans and you just chase the woolly mammoth of cliffs. That does work if you can get him near a cliff, but the idea of gay
the mall near cliffs and killing them all off by a bunch of people that hadn't figured out the wheel seems a little unlikely it just it's possible like over thousands of years, because that's the thing like we often tell these stories about please civilization. Humans is like oh and then they might painted made in this great journey to Europe and so on and off and that's like they moved a mile every year. So it's like journey is actually just this vehicle. Actually, yes, very gradual, and certainly, if you've got this grave site, hundreds of woolly mammoths in this one place that might be over thousands of years. I mean again. This is just something. No that's the thing they're talking about carbon dating that there are it's all like within the same time period. You have to like real we go over his stuff with a fine tooth comb and talk to him about it, because I'm not the right guy. I just I just listen to him, go blue and then you know try to relay it as much as possible. There's a podcast that I actually retweeted today, 'cause somebody brought it up on Youtube
it's available so I'll, send you to it afterwards to see. If you, what do you think about it? But but this is something yeah, but if you know the book say pins one! Oh no! You would like the fifth person to talk about it. I gotta get everyone talks about saving savings is like the book pull up a little closer to you 'cause. It makes a big difference in this house, but yeah one of the things that most blew my mind, there was how much megaphone are. There was the early days of homo sapiens. You know moving across North America, there were two ton, sloths giant slots and there's one of just very, very many massive megaphone. Are there just don't have anymore yeah. The blitzkrieg hypothesis is what they called the human animal killing off all of the other animals, It's a really troubling hypothesis, because when we don't want to think that we're capable of doing that, but obviously we do do that. I mean we're doing it right now. We just to the Buffalo. I mean we almost with Iraq, the Dyson Dodo yeah, we're doing it just
Tasmanian Tiger. There's a lot of different animals that, within our lifetime of gone extinct, I mean where actually like in terms of extinctions. I'm not sure will get the number light, but it would be pretty accurately describe this as the an extension extinction mass extinction, because yeah huge the number of species have gone extinct, so result of human activity, and it's also one of those things where we don't think of it as being significant because it happens slowly over the course of many years. But if you look at it on a timeline, you, like, oh my god, look, everything is dying right now: yeah yeah, exactly so it's slow by humans. Very quick by nature. Logical standards, yeah, it's a fascinating subject: the end of the ice age happening so quickly, the the animals dying off so quickly, and so many large mammals dying off so quickly. So when you We think about what we know. People have done like when we almost killed off the bison.
We know why they did that. We know how they did that and they did it with extraordinary weapons and they did it with high powered rifles that could shoot things from afar distance. They did it by shooting off trains. I mean they did a lot of crazy shit back then. So we understand mean and there's a lot of physical evidence, you there's photographs of the actual piles of bones and all that crazy shit. When you when you take away those physical capabilities, the extraordinary physical capabilities like even riding on horseback, there's a guy, I'm Dan Flores. Who is a fascinating guys, a scholar who believes even without the the Europeans coming over, he ran market hunting and killing off all the bison. He thinks just the firearm and the horse with the native Americans, it's entirely possible that they were going to eradicate the bison on their own. I mean again, it just depends about time scales,
even if you're, just killing like slightly more of the species like killing just enough of the species that the now below with her you know to children for every two rights viability. What age yeah eggs Oakley then just over sufficient time and remembering that homo sapiens between the Hunter gatherer age, one hundred and ninety thousand years, very long time spans again for the short geologically but yeah very long time spans. So again, just you don't have to be killed that many Willy mammoth to drive them to extinction over the course of several one thousand years, What are your thoughts when it comes to like the ethical reintroduction of animals that have gone extinct like there are some people in Russia that are there? Currently, rather, working on some form of a woolly mammoth we're going to take woolly mammoth dna from some of these frozen bodies that they've got. I mean they've, gotten some pretty intact woolly, mammoths now
and they're going to try to clone one yeah. So I don't know the details of how this will work. I guess they have to just ate it. In an elephant I'm, I mean I think it's like scientifically and sing. I don't think, there's anything wrong with it. One of the I don't think he is trying to make them. I am where you have woolly mammoths everywhere. Yeah I mean I think, I don't think, there's any ethical imperative to do it. I think there's no competitor like I would think this. If there's more William S, that's the same as the just being more elephants and it might be a scientific and fast. I heard the while, with on, like hypotheses that we heard will, like hope, that's cool, but send the dick us yeah. I heard the idea was the introducing Lily manis to like stomped on snow, and to to yes prevent global warming. Global warming, slow it down somehow or another yeah there's. Definitely things of this sort of thing that people say uh
dinner but yeah with the idea wasn't just stomped out snow, but also to eat the foliage yeah. There was like exfoliating thing that they're doing where they would consume so many trees and so many plans that it would actually lower the temperature of the earth. What in the fuck yeah. I just seem very skeptical of that, but I mean there is this philosophical question of whether you should so the question of biodiversity loss, which has been huge? How do you value that so? Is it the case, the loss of the species? You can just cash that, in terms of impacts on individuals, because of this is bad for the animals. The die in the course of that, and this we may be like have a loss of kind of information that we can just knock it back. But is this something intrinsically bad
about just having fewer species and a lot of people seem to act to act in a way that suggests they seem to believe? Yes, but it's hard, I think it's hard philosophically to cash that out. I think it's hard to explain like? Why would we care so much about losing species We don't seem to care about having you know, deliberately abandon my using bleeding, and so on that we get more species. It seems like we're only just conservative about like not losing them, but if it really is a value to have clear divest you species, why do we not actively trying to promote greater amount of by diversity? It was merely preventing loss of biodiversity. The I think the reintroduce the re introduction of of species is also like. If you have an environment that stable,
if you have some sort of an ecosystem that stable and then you re, introduce a predator or prey or some animal, that's going to eat up all the foliage you're you're running this big risk and you taking these big chances that you can sort of predict the future. You could look at a plus, be well that's gonna Eagle, say it doesn't always work that way and there's been disastrous. Results results when they've introduced species. Other environments where they're not native, like you know, what's going on with like place like Australia yeah, so it really is kind of hilarious in that regard yeah, so the inst used to Bob. No, they introduced a type of flog. Two. Is there an gonna, but to this is welcoming entities, type of fog to failure it took over, so they introduced lab it's sort of and eat these flogs or something to eat the flags, and then they took over and didn't kill them. Works, and I think more than they introduce Fox is to try to kill the rabbit and they killed all the ground, nesting birds and they introduce cats to kill. The fox is
we have had to kill the rabbits back back, ordered an introduced species. Well, specially back, then yeah. You know when they were doing this in the eighteen, hundreds in Australia. They really didn't know what the fuck they're doing their thinking short term right in front of them, and they also bro put in a bunch of animals that don't have natural predators, so they have to gun them down from the fucking sky. I mean they. Of these all these deer and stags, and all these magic beach I mean, if you're, seeing a stag there incre with a roar, the sound like a lion, and they have so many of them in Australia and particularly in New Zealand, but they don't have any natural predators, zero, no predators, so they have to fly over in helicopters and gun them down, yeah just like, and they leave them just leave them to rot. They just have too many of them, yes same with kangaroos as well, yeah yeah, because I seen those herds of kangaroos ever seen that no, I haven't. Oh, my god is a video that some guy took somewhere in Australia and it is.
Thousands and thousands of kangaroos running across field- and it looks like a button like some apocalypse, some apocalyptic kangaroo invasion, see if you can find Jamie the video just cuz we're seeing to realize like. Oh, this is What can happen when there's no predators like animals just get completely out of control yeah, so I'm vegetarian and have been for a long time now, but with some other vegetarian fans, we had the conversation of yeah. What would be the most ethical meat to eat and I think we can concluded that can go. Who would be the most ethical because it's being killed anyway? they just need, like you've got this population explosion, it's on land that wouldn't be otherwise used for anything. You know Clearly what pretty good lives. The environmental impact is therefore going to be lower nonexistent as well, Obviously kangling me is very unusual in almost all of those the guards.
It's not the yeah, I mean it's very nutritious. Apparently the kangaroos is actually a type of deer, believe it or not. Yeah. I don't believe that I thought I see people which is a total. Different. It is, but it's related to the deer in some straight. Look at these fuckers just hanging out. This is not the one I'm talking about, though, there's a bunch of am running across So this is just a large population of kangaroo. You know there's something we hang in the deer family in some strange way, see if Jamie could find that too. You know that I've wallabies in Scotland yeah, I know yeah and an island called inch, chronic and yeah. I've heard of that visit them a number of times and other with they introduced to Scotland. Yes, lead the island, because who in had thought up at church, No need for that. So she- I don't you don't know, but she owned. She on the island shown does do on the other
like a personal zoo and she died. I think the zoo went to everyone. So it just kind of the wound is just got out in the sun and the wallabies took over a and will hold the first evidence, because people wouldn't likely visit this was they would find these dead, wallaby caucuses on the mainland, and that was during the winter. The LOS British for Lake would freeze over in the wallaby's, would hop on the ice well get hit by a comma, but the now very tame is a shame, because I first found out about them back when it was still a bit to seek the fascinating. Now it's become a bit of a twist hot spot wow. What is the kangaroos are my soup using more closely related to possums than dear ok, so, the not related to deer, incorrect somebody
me that they were in some way in the deer, family or cousins of deer, or something like that. Early explorers said that they were just that's what their descriptions were there like two years without antlers messed up right, like men but salsa, I mean it's a cura questions and find like an official scientists saying here's the site yeah. I wish I had this my whole life, someone who just follow me around and collect me every time. I say something about this is amazing time. Somebody put something up on Instagram today and it was a quote from the 1800s about an ancient philosopher or an ancient scholar rather would give his life for the information, that's available to the common schoolboy today, and this is from a quote from eighteen. Eighty eight,
that's yeah its own, which is nothing now compared to what we can do. Yeah. I think, there's another statistic and again it's unclear. How do you measure this, but in terms of written information, at least one newspaper there has yet more of it in then. You know what than typical person in the 1700s would be exposed. That I liked? I wonder what was the natural predator of kangaroos, because kangaroos are there a native animal to Australia and if they didn't do you know there was a giant predator in New Zealand at least at one point time it was called the Haast Eagle. And it was an enormous eagle, the biggest eagle. They think that ever lived and had something like a ten foot wingspan and they believe that even hunted people, a huge, huge eagle, It's a part of the, I guess is the Maori it's up
of their ancient mythology and they found out that is actually a real animal that was k somewhere around the fourteen. Hundreds was made extinct through hunting. My understanding is in Salia for humans and, crocodiles, there's just no major predators for that's, the Tasmanian Tiger File, a scene Tasmanian Tiger that died during human. Like translator, crazy. Looking picture, look at its face. Look at that mouth on that thing, Jesus Christ, but that believe those things died off in the 1930s. I just typed us in here. So that's now extinct, but a dingo is probably the more predator they have when did it die. Thylacine is now extinct. However, humans arrived in Australia at least fifty thousand years ago and introduced the dingo about five thousand years ago. So maybe those things written tank kangaroos with a big part of
Kangaroos, I guess, would probably be catching them when they're not with there are young, but they carry their young inside their body in that pouch, which makes them different any other kind of animal that would be pray 'cause. They can take care of their their young and bounce away quickly. This is why so in terms of large mammals, humans killed every single type of large mammal other than kangaroos in Australia. I think they're kind of one hundred different types, originally there's a bunch of different things, other than candy yeah yeah yeah you maybe giant koalas. Let's see understanding was the reason for that was be cause. They didn't have natural predators, and so they just didn't know to deal with people yeah. So that makes sense which have all of these. Like defense mechanisms, right then also have wolves and coyotes and bears and all these different things they're chasing them down. That's interesting.
With the concept of what's the most ethical thing to eat, I would think you would think it would be like molluscs, okay, so that's it yeah, so I do think it's totally fine to eat and if well, what I say is I don't anything with the brain, so that means that Istas mussels clams they'll, ok, so I got convinced I didn't use to be like this. I got convinced by an advocate for it's called bivalve veganism I mean it's not doesn't make a big difference. I don't really like these things, save them occasionally, but you don't like, like muscles. No really have you ever had linguine with muscles like a good italian restaurant with a nice red sauce. Yeah So when the good they're fine and when the bad, the really bad. Well, that's in that case with everything,
so some things will make it when they good that can gross hamburgers. I mean you can get down the line. You know you could rotten food. No, but like good pizza is just amazing, pizza or like, like, I feel like the very best muscle, unlike matter, what's really? Oh man, you need to go to a really good italian restaurant but never had linguine with clams. Do you like clams? So again, I just feel I feel be indifferent about them. Oh, I should create. You just need to go to a really good restaurant because reading in England, man, that's the problem, yeah English, I don't know how to make it tallien food there yeah, that's! That is that this medically, I mean, there's a few people right now, they're screaming in England, I'm a good italian food. You sonofabitch, I'm generalize, aware I mean ignorant and saying that, but I can't defend english cuisine. You having been out to New York San Francisco, yeah. Well, London has some amazing restaurants. Now London does, but it was always the generalized stereotypical knock was at the food in was terrible. The first time
there was pretty bad yeah with what's the most ethical meat? I think it is a really interesting question because I think, in vegetarianism, so on. It's normally phase of this either or thing like not doing anything just go vegetarian or vegan, but I was interested in this question of just yeah. Well, supposing you only want to go halfway or all the different food like what are the other, the ones that going to do the most in terms of animal welfare, if you cut them out Cosmo, people when they go halfway to being vegetarian, they might cut out red meat, beef and so on, and I actually if you can at least about the animal welfare side of things. I think that's just long and I think there's two reasons for that. When is when is the spectre the amount of suffering that the animal has in the course of its life, where the way the chickens are if you look at just average and again we're talking about most checkins, though you're talking about factory
thank divisions in conditions which is well over ninety percent in, like ninety nine percent of tickets that we can on in these conditions their lives. Just. I think that the west of creatures on the planet basically and condos, I think often don't- have great lives business. Nothing really compared to check, and I think pork assemble Like pigs also have really terrible lives, I'm well as a large animals, cows hi sheep, just in general on being treated as badly and then the second question is how many animals are you affecting, where, if you consume mistake or something that's like a thousandth of a cow and out whereas you can easily eat kind of half a chicken and that's a factor that people normally don't consider as well
and obviously maybe value of how's life later than a chicken's life- is something we do in some strange way. Yeah hi Archy that we yeah we have almost inherently, or at least we do in the western world yeah. I think it's really hard to know like this is one of the hardest philosophical question of thought about for ages and I've eventually, given up on this, you got on happy cow Day and I'm happy to convey which is, which is worse. How do you wait? Those two do you can or an unhappy fish people have very few feelings about fish. Like you see it, dead fish people don't feel the same way. They feel if you see a dead lamb yeah in general, I've become more sympathetic. I think there's a bias where you know we we tend to sympathize more with things that look like us fish, have these weird look kind of They don't take care of their young to that sounds like french ea Shun, cute, yeah and so overtime. I've definitely become a lot more sympathetic to taking suffering of chickens and fish fairly seriously.
I'm sorry, but I think when you combine these two factors of again yes fish, I think, except that it is less good information on them, but I think this might be the casket, certainly chickens and pigs compared to beef x. Think if you just want to kill like take out most of the suffering from your diet, the moving chickens, cage and cage decks. I think in the US action- that's basically all x. Unless you go to the missiles and pork, I think you're moving and maybe fish. I think you're moving most of the suffering from your diet, vastly more than when it comes to be four milk yeah well in terms of like the amount of individuals that get impacted, you're right in that one cow can feed much more people, obviously than one chicken can. So, if you're taking one life in that form. What disturbs me most about factory farming, something disturbs me: it's sort of existed and then I found out about it and it was already there and I have been eating it all along and that shocked
in that I was sit still sitting back. I'd watched some commentry on it and I remember sitting back thinking like this happened, because we weren't paying attention because I a grown man when I found out about it. I haven't been paying attention an when you leave people alone and you hey man, do you think you can get us some beef and guys like yeah yeah? I got it, don't worry about it. You just stay over there in your city, I'll, take care of it over here out of sight out of mind, and then we find out about it, and then you hear about in America we have these things called gag laws, I'm sure. Yes, it unbelievable like no possible justification for this terrifying. It's just because so yeah where it's they're, hiding information, hiding information. Yet, and there was a case where there there was an animal welfare activist goes into effect. The farmers filming instances of animal cruelty for kind of documentary film that gets presented, got tried
and how to go to prison for not intervening in the animal cruelty this- is happening all the time and she was the person that actually that so she got tried for not intervening, not stopping the animal cruelty. Yeah we just haven't seen all of the time. I thought she would get true, for violating the Agatha gloss. No well. She was invasion of privacy on a corporation. Think that operate secrets. Yeah, I think, is prior to the I got close to our house, we found another way to try are to discourage that yeah. So that's so insane, but the thing you said earlier, which, when you talk about the ways in which humans are broken, I think, if you just look at yeah suffering humans of
Now the thing that's really wanting is how mechanized it's become. So, if imagine, if yeah there was Even- let's say chicken just right here in front of us- and I just for fun- just kick it, I'm people would be outraged. People would just think I'm this kind of despicable person and that's the natural, the action, because I'm just quick flick, sing unnecessary suffering on this creature, then you can just modify the circumstances such that this, emotional reaction of sympathy just fades away. When now this huge warehouse and it's not just one trick in its hundreds of thousands of chick in it's all mechanized and it's all taken out of sight. I mean just stolen said: yeah single death is absurdity of one million deaths statistic and I don't I don't have strong. I know I don't like lessons from Starling, but it's an extremely good quote.
But he was talking about humans and you know any death of a human. It will be tragedy an at one they get to large numbers. It's a sort of it's very difficult to calculate because it's hard for people to understand or grasp concept of a million people dying bizarre about factory farming is that it's all kind of done behind these warehouse walls. It's all undercover and it's all in crap probably common, and it's all not discussed like this, like it was happening, was going to have wars happening and one hundred thousand people a month or dying or discussing you know? How do we mitigate this? How do we stop this? How do we? How do we bring peace there?
so few people wondering how to stop chicken suffering yeah. Absolutely I mean because we've looked into this and one of reasons such a priority area is just the amount of just philanthropic money going into this when it's the focus is really on factory farming, not you know, stay dogs and so on. It's in the low 10s of millions of dollars of trying to stop factory farming, yeah or Tonna mitigate it, and why is the solution like other than going vegetarian vegetarian? When have we re, This point is sort of like unmanageable point where the population centers, like LOS Angeles, New York, whatever that don't grow their own food, have gotten so massive that, in order to fuel these people with food, especially with I'm a protein, you almost have to have the set ups yeah I mean, I think, if you've gone the constraint of animal protein, I mean, I think, the answer's, probably still known by the other things you just don't need that complaint of animal protein. We eat why to clean more meat than we did.
You know fifty years ago, one hundred years ago, far more than we need to have a healthy diet. I mean I've been vegetarian. Eleven years do eat thanks, though, free range eggs yeah. I do that for me. I don't understand why people don't like when Peter had that whole campaign about eggs. Chickens periods. Mike look, I can understand you not wanting to eat factory, farmed chickens, eggs, because these animals are tortured in their confined in its horrific, but you can deafen define eggs and I have my own chickens. I have twenty two chickens and they lay eggs and I eat eggs all the time- and I ate five hundred am this morning, they're great. But when your talk talking about those eggs, there's it's like, there's no suffering the eggs come out. They don't become chicken, you take them, it's free and those chickens by the way,
they're a bunch of little murders. They run around my yard. I've seen the media burr mouse before. If they found a a bird that was down like a like a a nesting birds that have fallen out of it, a Nast, don't that bird up anything that's on the ground, the only thing they don't! seem to like they don't seem to like slugs No, they don't we pick up a little like rock. In my garden I'll pick up a rock and the chickens come over and just jack. Anything that's under the rock they figured out that, when I lift up the rockers bugs under there, there are little murderers man their ruthless, they don't like slugs they try and then they start shaking their head. They try to get the slime off their beacon, it kind of freak out so yeah I mean there's this big within the animal welfare kind of acumen activists. This is actually quite big divide between you could call them, maybe the abolitionists on one side and the welfare nests
abolitionists view is just you know, animal the way we see animals like how we treated slaves. This is just this is kind of the equivalent of slavery of our time and the only any imagine if we being in slave owning Americans had like hey. Why don't we just cut down the number of slaves right? Hold, it's just not doing nothing model seriousness. The welfare lists, in contrast, are more like. Look almost all the suffering if we're going to quantify the suffering of the way humans, the animals. Now ninety nine percent of it comes from factory farms. If we eliminate affects the farms, sure the still something left. It's not like, even if you get a one on the kind of final stage, but this is the way the vast but we have both the animals used and the worst conditions are, and so the welfare shouldn't said say: look, let's really just focus all of our attention on this and things like free range, eggs or circuses or
for a test. These are just really kind of not the main issue, and you know I'm not sure the most sympathetic to the kind of well FED Us perspective. I but it is interesting of the animal. I know lots of people who were in the welfare this camp and then moved to the abolitionist camp on welfare sounds where the kind of worry is just that, if you're just going to get people to do a little, then you're not actually going to move them at all, whereas you need to have this hard model line and then p, kind of see the integrity of that and follow it. Well. It seems to me that there's a slippery slope when agriculture and civilization were introduced, that someone wasn't going to exploit it to the n, th degree and figure well, is just going to be a better way to squeeze money out of the situation and then next thing you know: you've got these factory pig farms. I'm sure you've seen the horrific one with fly the drone over the lakes of pig, piss and pig shit
and that these animals are living just completely confined where they can't even turn around, and they just pumping him up with whatever the fuck they need to keep them alive until they get to a certain point where they can kill him and it is through people. So many people would be absolutely if that was right there in front of that would be second yeah. Hence the AG gag laws in order to keep that money coming in. They have to keep people in the dark of these situations and less they go online and seek it out and and watch these videos, in those videos are very polarizing too, because when you know, when you come to a lot of these animal rights organizations, a lot of them have roots in the animal liberation organization which doesn't even believe the should have pets. They think that your pets are all you know prisoners yet so interesting, going back to Peter singer where, he said the animal liberation, which is the name of his book, which is kind of text. You know founding text for what became the animal rights movement and what's interesting, is that singer,
I believe in rights is a consequential SEC. Two Italian never use the word once so. What he has a poacher just be thinking yeah. What's gonna do the most good, I'm on the pets. Question Donna speak for pizza, but he's gonna think well. If they have, good life in the wealthy to it's just seems fine yeah again, he'd want to say, like the focus should be on suffering yeah. On the huge vast magnitude of suffering. We go right back to the phones. Let's plan of one hundred and twenty three and four yeah. I have a hard time even entertaining the conversation that there's something wrong with the healthy pet dog, like that dog loves the owner. The people love the dog, and the dog is obviously gone through an incredible evolution, very process where it's gone from being a wolf to being a chihuahua like if you think that- things should be out fending for itself. In the forest boy, you're dooming that little fucker to death, I mean well the question that dog in all of these cases like the animals, wouldn't exist,
that the ways that they wouldn't exist from people I mean if it wasn't, for people breeding them and making them this bulldog. Like this, and they can't even hardly breathe and walk with a waddle like where we weird that we've done that in the first place. Yeah I mean I find especially the pets like dogs that have like difficulty: breathing genetic diseases. If any kind of gross like this gross, that we've kind of done that I've got one. What type of dog It's a shibu, Eno English bulldog mix, some poor little fucker he's a mess. We got him as a puppy you know 'cause, he was cute and you know he just seemed like you needed a home and we took Amanda. I saw messed up man I mean I've. Had him for ten years, he's at all these surgeries and can't walk right. His hips are all fucked up is just like that freedom, to the point where he's half shibui knows he's actually better off than a lot of bulldogs 'cause he's twelve now I don't think bulldogs usually live, that long they lived to that age, but he's got all sorts of like difficulties can't really run. You know is Alizee
place to lay down snore, but the poor little things like look at an actual legit was bold, are with their flat faces, like they have massive respiratory problems. Yes, I find that lake effect we like, engage this product yeah. This is leading them kind of weird, but then like yes, you can have a dog look after that. Well like not the problem, definitely yeah, and so this question is just if you're talking about that. Are you just like distracting from the main issue? right! Well, it also seems to me that this is just like everything else in life. I guess you go down the rabbit hole when you look at a deeper and deeper and deeper you go. This is a complicated issue. You know How do you get all these people to stop eating so much meat so that you don't need so much mean so that you don't need factory farming and have to get people aware of what is the consequences of you know going in. A chicken sandwich. Well, do you know where that chicken came from here check this out? Are you happy now L Analog?
people they watch those videos and then they go out fuck it I'm hungry. I want tickets and yeah lots of people. Do I do think, though, like so in the UK at least, if you buy a pack of cigarettes, you get these pics, is on them showing kind of what this is, what your lungs will look like if you smoke 20th day in those warnings and things it doesn't stop people in some weird way. I mean people who are addicted I think it must have some impact by one day, it does if you could buy a pack of chicken and say well. This is this: is this field of piss and shit that this checking grew up in right, like the opposite of an AG gag law like for sit in your face, because I mean you're, just just giving the consumer more information having that like. If you went to the butcher shop went to the Bush, section in the grocery store and there was videos that were playing constantly above the package meat head. So these animals getting like a piston through the head and hanging by their ankles and getting bled out while they bucked and kicked,
but that would be a fucking eggs, conveyor belt of baby male chicks falling into this out yeah well getting ground up yeah. That would be a fascinating psychological examination to watch. People walk up to butcher shop and see those videos playing like if that became the law. I mean there's an amazing there's, a comedy show sketch show that I'm did it something kind of similar, which is no. That would go up to the purchase counter and say: okay, I'd, like some sausages, they go. Okay, pick up a little baby pig and put it into this big box. Does is a fake and just like do this action and sausages would come out, obviously, they're not actually converting right, right and people will be out wait and no whip no know where comes on so yeah, that's the thing, that's just amazing is how people can call themselves
some of those well there's also people that love animals and eat meat like that eats Bacon then get mad at people for hunting animals. I have experienced that personally. This is a good case, though of the, aliens issue where I am I mean so I like oppose hunting ending that family gets killed but the thing is it's a so salient compared to factory farming, and it's like you know what I preferred. The people hunt, meat of them like fax, it from its like, of course, and like you, do the math this like? Not only am I behind that and behind that, like a thousand times again, the hunting is just it's. This very salient thing you know in the: U K it huge uproar about fox hunting and so on. That's a different thing, because Fox hunting you're not you're, not eating it I mean it's supposed to be for it yeah. It's kind of like vermin, control, yeah and there's some there's some logic to that that, if you don't have natural predators, you need to figure out some way to control certain populations that can be damaging like fox or in some places,
black bear and there's a bunch of different animals that you do have to control because they don't have, and then I have a natural, predator, yet yeah, but the thing is like incredible, for me is just how people can have yes, such long views on non such long views on hunting and then just hit me. No, the actions affect the farming yeah. They just don't see it. I know it is just because we have very many. Peelable. Is he sometimes of our model, the actions, but it's obviously wedding 'cause, there's certain with that, there's certain animals that you have to control the populations of especially invasive species like pigs like wild pig, is a huge problem in America and getting bigger and bigger. I know you guys: don't have them as much in the UK, but Indiana America, particularly in Texas and now in northern California, that would just massive massive populations of wild pigs and they give birth. To two three times a year and they can give birth to him these three to six piglets in each cotton. In six months later those
tickets are ready to give birth, so they just boom boom boom boom and, if you don't control their populations, what are you going to do? You know let wolves moves to control their population. I mean they have to figure out how to do it, and so they take into a lot of the same strategies that they're using in New Zealand that we talked about with stags in Texas. They have these helicopter hunts where they fly around and look up just gun down hundreds and hundreds of these pics, and they do wind up donating that, though the meat of that pigs to homeless, shelters and people who needed it is very nutritious and very healthy, and very good for you, and that's probably way better than buying pig from someone who's raised some horrific factory farming environment, but for people that want the animals to live and be on challenged and on you know, on the parade upon I get it yeah, it all seems very disturbing, but you got to control the population because you're not going to have any agriculture. I mean they're, going to fine now where the farms are an they tear them. Apart at night there
Turner animals. You can't stop them with fences. They go right through fences there, huge huge animals, wild pig, create millions of dollars of damage in Riverside County wow. That's that's like Riverside counties like super populated It is a enormous enormous problem in this country and by the way, when you look at that animal. What's really cool about pigs is that they morph. When you see that animal it looks very different than a domestic pig, but its exact same animal they're, all the same genus, some call Seuss Scrofa and when take a domestic pig and you let it go within months within months of being free, their hair starts to change. Their snouts starts to elongate their tusks to grow longer. They once they be Hum Ferrell once they realize they have to fend for themselves. There's an actual physiological change in the structure of their body, so interesting, fascinating, really crazy. Their hair get thicker, they develop a thicker plate
emails do around the chest to protect themselves from other males when they fight, pigs that people see there's a bunch of different kinds, some of them russian boars or wild. You know the different different kind of a pig but ultimately the all interbreed with each other yeah yeah. This is so and sing as well. Coming back to the question of: what's not cool and now and so on. People often think this about meet the rating as well. Where, if you look at the you know, chickens can barely stands because they've been so engineered which lasts. You know the amount pigs that you're talking about like and not meant to be pink right to be planned. You know cows dist. Can you really imagine a cow? Like is all things in the wilds of one more, of course not. All of these things are incredibly unnatural for you, thousands of years of selective
doing well. Crap cows, don't live in the wild, but here's where it gets interesting in Australia, when cows have gotten wild they've gotten loose from these pens that people held them in and then they become what they call scrub bulls and their out there are in the wild and people hunt them like they would hunt a wild animal and they're very wary and they run from people. They see people that get the fuck out of there in the bulls are incre. Blue violent, like the the male cows. These scrub bulls are some of the most dangerous things to hunt in the world because they'll actively chase you down like a bull like So if you see like people trying to ride bulls, are bulls kick, and you know they go crazy. Well, these scre, Bubbles are essentially those bowls, but many many many generations wild, so their fair call bulls yeah. And so they is a sort of were bred to be this domestic thing and then they got loose and then they became this wild thing, and so they look slightly
different like that's what they look like. That's a scrub bull, so they becoming slowly over the core. I have many generations a more wild animal, so they have these hunts for these scribbles, and if that thing sees you by the way that crazy, in bowl they will fuck you up. There are some of the most dangerous animals that you can encounter in. The wild apparently but I have a buddy, my friend, Adam yeah, they look different like look at the hump, it's back that looks like some crazy wild african animal- and it was originally a long time ago of reg your domestic cow yeah. So it shows just how artificially. If that's just, if that's the sort of changes you get over just the course of a few general natural selection as opposed to what we're doing with dogs. You know we create a whole dog mean that is those are the animals that have survived and in the days each
means their coloration. Their physical structure looks different in over many. Many generations is quite quite fascinating. It's like we have to figure out where we stand. I think, in terms of the entire ecosystem. Beak we're certainly not viable. We can't go, go out there and live amongst those animals, I mean we won't will get killed, will get eaten. So we have to stay inside of our homes. We have to stay inside of our environments and then we to figure out like how much of an impact should we have on those things around us. Should we be like all the other animals like like the wolves and all these other animals, the coyotes that have this impact on the environment, or should we try to lessen our footprint to the point where we have zero impact on any of the animals, and we just live inside of these sustained areas that grow vegetation? It's an interesting question because those models prey on each other. They all do and like what should we be a part of that? Should we take place? Should we take part in that? I definitely don't think we should factory farm. I definitely think
that was a huge mistake. An I also definitely think that that huge mistake is let us to be able to have these gigantic cities, and I don't think necessarily. Cities are huge mistake, but man trying to figure out how to feed those people in the way that they are system to eating right now, there's a it's a massive hello, letting them battle yeah, but I think the kind of question of large populations and how do you feed them that massively tells in favor of lower meat, consumption or vegetation war, because you've got this ten to one but will went right to create a calorie of meat. You need tends calories or more of of grain or sorry, whatever you're feeding them unless you're dealing with people, consuming wild pigs, yeah, wild pigs something with it that there are exceptions to that as well, but I don't think there's enough to feed people, though that's the other thing there's three hundred and fifty million. People in this country there's not three hundred and fifty million wild pigs exactly, but it means that in the
which are just as populations get larger than yeah again we're just going to need to use Landon Angie more efficiently. So this is like yet another argument in favor of plant based diets yeah. Well, in America at least, the majority, the vast majority of the money that goes towards conservation towards keeping wild animal populations high, is actually from hunting. It's uh build strange contradiction that makes people really uncomfortable once they find it out is that the vat ask majority of the money that goes to protect habitat, to preserve. Why wildlands it comes from hunting. In fact, hunters voluntarily agreed. Please isn't a nineteen thirties to give up ten percent. There are more make sure that our numbers right to of the money in terms of the percentage of sales of hunting equipment goes directly towards conservation. There's all these things, yeah
there's all these different entities, like the Rocky Mountain Elk Federation that have re poppy, did Elk into all these areas, but done so specifically so that people can hunt them. So it gets really we yeah, it might be. An uneasy alliance between in many people's eyes, but they're the ones that are giving up the money. The money is not coming from altruistic organizations that just want to preserve these animals, so they can exist in the free wild way that they did before people got here, but there's more tailed deer in America today than when Columbus landed. So it's all because of conservation because of hunting. So it's yeah another one of those weird things where my control picture yeah, as a solution. This I've heard suggested for, would you sing species loss which is to allow basically ownership of species? So you can call like the panda hello. Now. Is this a weird idea? But the idea is:
is the now suddenly like at the moment? No one has a financial incentive to ensure that pandas don't go extinct, whereas if someone were able to say no, I have if you want to the panda and video and you have to pay the owner of yeah well, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of this laboratory created meet that's going to go why you uncomfortable, I'm very positive about it. I mean the science is kind of tricky, but I'm positive about it in that. It's not going to be any animal suffering and it's going to be fascinating in that regard, but What's going to happen if we find out that. Well, there's a bunch of different things right. First, we have to make sure it's healthy. We have to make sure that doesn't cause some sort of weird disease, because you're not eating something, that's living and moving and when you eat sedentary creatures, maybe there's some sort of an adverse impact on our biology, because
I think, there's an adverse impact when you eat protein from an animal that is like weak and sick and they've actually shown. A study that Doctor Rhonda Patrick sent me recently that showed that animals that eat older, sick animals die a quicker. They have a shorter lifespan and in exhibit less health characterised. I believe it was then animal is that eight younger animals and there seems to be some sort of a direct correlation between eating younger, healthy things and having a positive, healthy impact on on physical life, self, the animal that's consuming it and, if you're eating something that never existed in the first place like what, unless they're able to recreate the characteristics of a healthy animal like strong muscle tissue like maybe they could do that with electrical impulses like some sort of electrical muscles musk, stimulation yeah. I don't see why that would be a problem.
I mean at least you think you'd be able to get past that, in fact, where you know the meat that we've gotten, the cart stuffed full of antibiotics. You know this are often via. This is why this is the kind of alliance won flu avian flu influence. Acne you can avoid all of them with all that? All that stuff comes from factory farming, in fact yeah and in fact then, once you start to engineer meet, perhaps you could engineer exactly the health, sold me you've got so much more control over the product, Debbie Crane. So of course you got it yeah with the development of any new technology is going to be cautious about ten, but ultimately, it seems like we should be able to get to a point where we have tastier cheaper, more healthy me that uses far less common, like has far less common. They outside, as a side effect, uses far less land area scan better
but every single way- and I mean I think, the science it does seem hard in particular just to get the costs down low enough. Well, I think they've got it down pretty low. I mean there was a recent article about it where they were talking about. The original one was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, and now they have, the down, like twenty bucks yeah. I think that was misleading. I wasn't yeah, it's a shape like it seems to me that there's a been a little bit too much hype around in the coming, where yeah there's some stories of like the costs automatically going down where 'cause, it's definitely much lower than that. I think it's definitely still decades away decades,
I think so really. Yes, amazing. What makes you think decades. So the argument is that the company, the so it depends on what you're talking about like egg white. I think it's p easy. Comparatively milk is comparatively easy, but structured meat, so no steak or chicken. That has a structure. That's, I think, very difficult and I think, apparently, part of what the difficulty is. There's a certain solution, the needs to hello this me and I'm not solutions company very expensive from and the key part of the cost. Ms, even once we get to the point of being able to develop this game, the cost down low enough- it's it's competitive, you're gonna need to take this fluid to the cuddly costs. I don't know how much like one thousand dollars lately to get it down to the cost of soda, and we don't currently, it seems have like a clear kind of scientific. It would be the ultimate conundrum if they found
Not the only way to make that fluid and to make it financially viable was to make it out of ground up. Pets will get killed, ' and anyway euthanized pets, so at like would people be upset if they took euthanized pets and they used it to make the fluid to grow the artificial meat in or would they prefer those euthanized pet it's just be cremated. So at the moment that fluid does have to come from animals that had certain part of it. That is animal base just guessing. So it's not exactly roundup pets? It's still not probably reigns, as I understand it still comes, you know if you can but is. Instead, I think it's going to change. I mean I do think
Given the level of just model cognitive dissonance, that's currently going on between people's attitudes to animals, pets, any animal they can see and consumption of meat. Once you take self interest out of the equation, once you've got meat that is cheaper than just as tasty, I think just everyone's going to switch and then within a generation people will look back at the current generation and just think how did anyone ever engage in such abominable activity, as factory found me yeah. Well, it's probably one of the darkest things that we as a civilized humanity do when you, when you think about other than war, which is Obv the most horrific thing or one of most horrific things. I mean it's arguable that, in terms of suffering it's the next thing because it has to be. That is the next thing right. Other than poisoning people for Prof
you know other than companies that have polluted environments of wanna pours in people yeah. So in terms of animals, a fifty billion animals are killed every year for human could worldwide worldwide, most of them have can short life, so Lehrer, no broiler hens have six lives. That's crazy, six weeks, so from the time they're incubated, the time there in a oven six weeks last night yeah, and I think that nuts, a point at which they die, is that the highlight of their life, in my view, is there. Life is just filled with suffering, and so that means any at any one time the seven billion animals. In fact, the forms right now living basically being tortured for the entire two. The short life, so the entire population of the human race? It's basically one to one yeah why any one time is a not so that's less than a hundred years old, yet much less than that. That's in fifty fifty years old, really
that's who is the first crazy asshole that jam those chickens, those little cages? Henley field, I think, since the guy his name, so he fascinating of I is of the free marketeers so back in fifty is good. I'm going to go to that question, but it's not as bad as lead entity. I promise you that's right is: are there awesome so back in the fifties? I'm free market economics was just completely dead. It was just not a mainstream idea toll within academic economics, but it really opposed to prominence across into the sixties, certainly the seventies and then fetch and Reagan. King and power huge up taken this intellectual movement, and so the question,
and where did it come from? I was actually very significantly driven by a small number of people in the fifties and early sixties like very deliberately saying. Okay, I want we want this ideology to become really dominant and one of the most important first organizations was the institute for Economic Affairs based in London, a think tank, and it was funded by the person who hello to fax the phone check into that. And so it's weird because I promote this idea of. I need to give a something that you know. Young people should consider. That's the only thing they should do, but as one of many things they should do of. Okay should consider doing. If you want to do good, you could go in like directly have an impact, but there is also another option which is doing something
really passionate about that. Maybe has less of a direct impact, earn a lot and donate what you're, making at least a significant part of that to the things you think are most important and then I think of this I think the Fisher. Sorry I'm. This is like this most of us instantiation of that, where the guy went became factually following on top and basically on any two could have give glands Jesus crying so is not just so indicative of how humans are so complex, it's so strange and that we will find all these justifications for all these bizarre behaviors and then we we were never like totally pure, like there's so many so many people that are so is terrible example, but when I use all the time ' 'cause we made so many people laugh anyway about a hundred or whatever allegedly, you know like he was helping and
pulling out so much love to. So many people and then being fucking evil so a bunch of people that he drugged, yeah, that this exists, duality that thanks yeah think about Germany. Think about the number of people who were involved in the whole course of their, children and their children, and if you talk to them, you would have had to like great conversation, would have been very caring and so on. This is, I mean yeah, it's a very. The powerful idea, the banality of evil, having events phase where yeah the worst crimes committed and not because people are bad, It's because evil in the way think James Bond villain, like this plotting something it's just be They have some goal:
some goal on which they are indifferent to suffering, and they cause that as a side effect. And so it's the same, if you ask people, do you want animals to suffer horrific Lee infected? The phones will see. You know, of course not is just I don't care casualties of war exactly in cash. Piece of civilization and the same insight. Actually, when we talk about ai as well as you know, sometimes in the media, people say all the while the about a eyes. Terminators gonna want to kill humans, but that's not the way, a told the idea. What, when you think about homo sapiens and neanderthals again, it's just having some other entity that has goals on which you're just not very important right. And that means that yeah and they're also going to judge us and if they are intelligent and superior to us they're, going to judge us based on the entire whole of our behavior, and then go look at this messy species, this fuck, This species is crazy Y landmarks musk has my most terrifying quote. He
his quote is the most terrifying to me that he thinks it with ai. We are summoning the demon, the demon yeah. I love that. Yeah, it's just like I mean I worry yeah like I think a lot of the me the attention around AI is like has been really unfortunate because it suggests like it's coming next year and it's going to control. It's like the d, I think, on to pull more fires right now or than is necessary, and so on sort of, I think, but if it is ultimate goals: the extinction of the human race, that's very demonic. In our regard, yeah I mean indifferent and if the way we think about mollusks yeah yeah, exactly the way we think of mosquito- yeah skills of my favorite, because vegans a slab miskito else yeah I mean I'm a ski on ski does: send him or not alive yeah, but there are they sent like, I think, clams and Melissa unsentient, then insect and like well, there's some weird arguments about that then mean why not eat crickets because cricket protein
is excellent. Having cricket bars before they're covered in chocolate and he's really good there high protein yeah, I mean many. I do know many people do advocate for that. My view is just like if you're unsure than place safe and you being a lot of cricket slick yeah, but there's a lot of crickets out thirteen. Well, if you like might be hunting tickets for the tiny little spear. I don't think, is a do it here, a lot more brutal than that I mean I think factory farming for cricket to be a horrific institution. You know and you just what would you do? Fucking swarms of 'em the smash him down to a protein bar. I would I worry about. Is that what the current number of the amount of species that have ever existed that are now extinct? It's fucking huge, doesn't like ninety nine point, nine nine percent, something why not us why not us? And if we do give birth to artificial intelligence? If we are the caterpillar that gives birth to,
butterfly yeah that one's of taking over the world some artificial, butterfly yeah. I mean, I think the thing that worries me is that you know it's a. I is it's kind of it's own thing. I, and I think you know we do because it's like potentially extremely beneficial as well. If it goes even if supposing it goes well, there is a huge thing like we should care about it, whether or not we're worried about the extinction risk, because it's good, you know one of the things one of a rare cases. I think where we can really see into the future and think yes, this is going to be a transformative technology. We don't know when it's gonna happen, but when it does, when it does it's going to be transformative and it's going to be very powerful, and that means we should have some kind of careful thought, but it seems to me there's a variety of ways that the human race could kill itself now so novel pathogens being one example,
large hadron collider, so my colleague Toby actually about a paper on the large hadron collider, because there was all this talk about. Oh, we could complete holes and so on, and so he an academic paper where he just talked about the risk analysis that they did, and they said, oh, the chance of the large Hadley collider, creating a black hole or something else. It's like really dangerous is ten to the power negative sixty fee. You know that, Not going zero, it's not zero fastly, it's not! Zero was mother fuckers. They could but all eyes were really long. We did know, but the second thing also is that it's so you shouldn't think the end of things tend to the negative sixty feet really, unless you have very very strong models behind right, because what's the chance, he just made some mistake,
calculator- it's like you know, maybe as low as one in a million, but that mistake completely swamps the polarity, and so that was the point that he was making just statistical point saying look, I'm not commenting on whether this is dangerous or not. It's just that you've made a mistake in your methodology with respect to your risk assessment, and so it was really funny because then he was there. This is very calm. Sensible philosopher from oxfords in a place meeting with I think, later, surrounded by all the aluminium, like ten little oil tinfoil hat people yeah yeah living file, aluminium. I love the way you guys a little, and I know how many times I was so annoyed when I found this but Penley you'll it. Your way is correct. And is where. How is it higher with, and I really and then you start saying things like fire click. Oh this and I click click
If people in the niche in the fire uh, when we say it's and Ishaani sleek fire out fire, foyer foyer say for you, though, do people say foyer, so I've definitely had fire Walmart people was a white trash? Where are you from originally? Where am I yeah New Jersey is where I was born, because I thought a New York thing, but maybe maybe Maybe I didn't really grew up there and threw up all over the place. Boston mostly- you do so many things wrong. It's very hard area is very distressing to me to tell you that we don't do. We don't do queens, you guys still have queens. I love the queen get out if we need it still going Culas, it's so funny. I feel like every time I go for No, I think the queen is like hey lips, ridiculous institution, hello, but I said that's a job like wave in this very really. Wave she's kind of rocks are hand back and forth some sort of weird semi Vulcan stance, it's kind of funny
especially some of that kind of progressive. I have an american you've got a monarchy, isn't everyone's talking about it? this quaint yeah. We just like knowingly things about it like it's just really have war right, but she still lives in a fucking castle lives in a castle. She lives off the dime, but if you do in an economic analysis sheet, things and more money than she sort of, but she takes a lot. She sort of the anti will Macaskill. If you ask me, yeah, that's right, in the taxes they support. Just gets all this free money in that bitch. Just where is golden shit and around a limo, it's kind of ridiculous, so you could yeah, you could definitely get the same sure doesn't benefit? People are mad. I said bitch, I'm not really meaning the word bitch, so I could all do respect folks. Just a figure speech. Humorous figure, speech. Ok! Well, I appreciate that I don't want to disparage your ruler. Yeah. I appreciate the caveat such a strange ruler though kings and queens and pray
Charles, it's really it's a really funny. Part of that is culture. So I keep it's so funny because I keep, I spent a lot of time in California, but every time I come back, it seems to be on some major event to do. Loyalty, so one was the queen's birthday. When was the event of the queen's being the longest ever running monarch, when was that jubilee, We don't know about that at all of any of those things. For you is these massive events. It just means I come off the plane being in America for awhile, and this is pictures of the green everybody. I see. Ok, yeah, I'm definitely back in Blighty. Now now, what's going on now anything crazy, but yeah, huge news today. Well for me, as a Scott Nicola Sturgeon, the first minister so like the leader of Scotland, kind of think of Scotland to the UK is like state to federal. But it's a little bit different announced, there's going to be a second she's planning, second, scottish referendum, so
caused, the because Britain is taking itself out of the European European Union where they expect. Is that going to make Tuesday end of month. It's very shortly you voted overwhelmingly in favor of remaining so Petland in General is ten saline. A lot for the left than the rest of the UK previously had an independence. Referendum is very close. Actually, fifty two percent with in favor of staying of the union so said the union there's not gonna, be a second referendum. This this is what Nicholas Sturgeon is saying and because of the brexit vote. I think it's much more likely that Scotlands will say: yes we're going to leave, and then they have the main part of the European Union. Where does the last of Litton will leave and it's interesting for me, because I was very
play with the union against independence in the previous now, I'm not sure now I think I probably I'm in for it, because I think that blacks, it was just such a bad decision. The I kind of want them to be punished for that and well, I think it's two things one is the. I think that now the case for Scotland being part of the e? U but not part of Britain, the echo case, going, makes a bit more sense now than it did in the past, but then. Secondly, just I would kind of worry that leaves the? U e? U does that track kind of spark of, like you know, a much larger movement where the just the e? U as a project kind of breaks down and if it's the case like well UK leaves the EU, but, as a result, the country just falls apart. I think that would be you wanted that to happen. You wanted England to fall apart to be punished for leaving the I mean. I think it would be like a very major signal like
think it would if they prospered yeah. And then, if I do got if I was convinced that blacks, it was the right decision, it was actually best for the world and then I change my mind. I don't know enough about it, but I do have a friend is very knowledgeable and he's from England and his take on it was the the real issue with the you is that you're dealing with a bunch of people that aren't even elected they're, just sort of running the European Union and he's like, and you would. I have to tell you when you just look history: what happens when people a great amount of power and aren't even elected to their their position and the allowed to just go to any part of the European Union and move into it? He's like that was very detrimental and very bad in terms of the way England's financial structure was set up. There were like this. This would be detrimental to England, but beneficial to other places in the
idea was that we were supposed to accept the fact that would be detrimental to England and beneficial to other car. Trees and many people in England did not want to do that and then do it, and in making that decision they were thought to be xenophobic. They were thought To be, you know, nationalistic and that it was racist, so I think this I mean one thing is yeah, I don't like yeah, I mean so this kind of two things one is with respect to the cast sovereignty question I mean like European Union, like it has its own parliament and so on. You can vote on that. You each get a bit of electors and the reason in so far as it's undemocratic. It's mainly just because people don't care like the they don't care, what isn't going on Saddam a crowded but turn as in voters to turn out to elections for men. Members of the European Parliament, parliament, the tennis very low, thanks and in a sense of maybe it'll, be larger now that they realize the consequences of it. Well, I mean there's not going to be anymore 'cause, it's going to leave implode
since leaving so Britain's limit. So you no longer of voting for members right in parliament. I'm so that's one question and then like is this good about Clinton? I think, like the economic case, it's just incredibly strong for european kind of good for button. The reason being just like free trade in general benefits both parties, one of the we maximize the amount of the plate, I'm but then the biggest thing for me is just like with respect to unity between countries is like third tale by Scott West of war, which we don't really think about, because we haven't had a mate. What the world WAR since into the early mid twentieth century I'm, but Europe have had like a long period of comparative peacefulness like before the first World war. People thought no, it's unthinkable, given the level of interconnectedness between the countries that world WAR account into debt.
Right and so, and I think those sorts of things be. You know that's the tail outcome, but can be very bad indeed, and we don't often think about it, because it's just this occasional thing. And so that's why in general, and just always, like almost always more Pleau closer relations between, between countries that makes sense to me what he said makes sense to me as well, though, when he was saying essentially, it was like think of the United States, but now think of state being country how to elect a leader of that country. But you can elect a leader for the United States and so that's essentially how he was looking at the European Union. He was saying the European Union is not elected and yet There are controlling all these uh elected officials and elected states. All the all group together, instead of thinking them as like Germany and think it was England, think of them as states, and think of the European Union in the officials. The people that are in
troll of the European Union aren't even elected yeah, so I mean you do elect the parliament and then it's also the case that the analogy like the amount of power that Europe has via the remaining the other countries, is like nothing like the amount of power the federal government has over the Gulf government has of US states, like you know the? U K sets so the powers, the? U has one of the things that got made lots of attention as bendy bananas, the it's not like. We will focus area for people desire, but also in D. What does that mean? So, according to EU regulations, so EU has a single market. So that means you have just the same stand across all countries, but then that means you just start to have these standards over things, bananas and said there was one year regulation elation, which is that a banana couldn't be to bendy. Otherwise it would count as defective banana.
And so people will wake up in outrage about there's like how can the EU dictate to us the shape of our bananas but Think the case is like a good one was like really not that important, it's just a banana. Why did they even try to regulate it? Then? Well, it's if you want to have like a flea like single market. You need to have common standards across. And then this is the market dictate. Those standards were like the bendy bananas don't sell and then the straighter ones do yeah. I mean I don't know more of the detail about. It seems to me, like anytime, the government steps in on something as fucking ridiculous as the bend in the shape of a banana tree like a fuck face. Why don't you go take care of poverty? You know why? Don't once you handle something real instead of dealing with bendy bananas. Look so on the Bendy Madonnas case yeah. I can't off the top of my head. Think of why you'd want to not the sailor, but that's what people worry about when they were about bureaucracy. When you worry about too much control so.
It's a great example in fact of why people don't want, micromanaging of our culture yeah. But then the quest when is do we want to leave over bananas, and I like a lot of other factors. It's not the bananas that caused it right. But the thing is the: U K, as part of the European Union, has sovereignty over like saying. Come taxes all of its laws, long as they don't conflict with the you and declaration of Human rights, which was first invented by the? U K has control of yeah all of its internal legislation. It can. It can go to war if it once and the dead, so the loss of sovereignty seems pretty mild from my perspective and I feel like I feel like they focus on these examples, which is like. Okay, maybe like let's say
s a k, it's a cost we would like to be like maybe of the battle of Britain could make decision of man, as maybe the bananas was. The bat Cole would definitely is similar universal reaction. I mean the the there's are. A large percentage of the people in England are very upset about brexit. You know yeah, no, It's a really interesting sort of a divide between people. I mean. The thing I find fascinating is that we would make- and I think this in general- I think this with elections as well, as I studied a bunch of voting theory the wanting my phd and we make these momentous decisions as a country, we get everyone in the population to try and go to a specific place and then get the smallest possible information out of them that you can, which is just a single tech,
but yes or no was this so much more? You could be doing right in one case, with a referendum just at a particular date, where the turn out was affected by things like the weather it's affected by. You know what happened in the week before and said you just have figured out from under and given the mention this momentous ness of the decision. Spending more money on like actually getting the acts of the views of the people is super important, so instead yeah you have three of the period of six months and choose the best. You know bet best that free. Basically, when there's not, as that would be like a more accurate to accurate representation of what people think of a time. Sure, but isn't there also a gigantic issue with people not being informed about what they're voting on you don't have to be informed
about why you're voting? Are you certainly don't have to be accurate about what your you could easily be misled, yeah on the actual hard provable facts could be completely outside your grass and yet you still make a big decision yeah. I wondered before about having a test test yeah you go like but like when we really really basic. I think it would still this this question of just. Why do we care about democracy? What's the point white wing questions that I had a flood seems like a really important thing: yeah political philosophers talk about this all the time, so the kind of it could be like democracy seems goods. Other forms of government we know so far seem terrible, seem tap terrible Wes, but why? Why is democracy good? Is it just that democracy gives us this way to boost out dictators?
and the risk of single person taking power is just really really bad, and so we just need some mechanism to get rid of. That is it's intrinsically valuable? Is it that people just have a right to have equal representation, and that's just this fundamental thing, or is it justified on just in terms of the consequences? Is it because If everybody is able to contribute, then people will make better decisions. I never necessarily think it's an either, or I think there's also that people like to feel like they play apart, like they don't want to, like they're being ruled over by some monarch. They want to feel like they have some sort of a play in the decision making is also one of gross things about Trump winning in this country is how many people glow did you know how many people gloat a pond? after that, their side, one and then you're dealing with this whole team mentality that people adopt when it comes to any sort of an issue yeah. Well I mean this is Cody Exit right, yeah. No, in general, this is one of the things I'm really worried about with.
Is increasing levels of partisanship? This is just this really robust phenomenon that we're seeing an, and it's really worrying because it means we're just undermining anytime soon. People changing their mind like someone like people, say well, of course, Akomi acceptor, but like the vast majority of Trump's votes were and simile for Hillary's votes with some people, who just was what the Publican yeah Democrat well, not necessarily because of the the Trump one by so many votes. That of good percentage of them had do a voted for Obama to statistically I'm, but I'm still thinking, I'm all of Trump's votes. What proportion of people have only ever voted Republican. It's good question. I would like definitely bet greater than eighty percent really probably better than ninety percent yeah. That's right. I mean, if you look at the polls like it's all, is that in terms of expected number of votes
No, it's only forty six percent in favor of Tom. What is also the issue that the independence in the swing states, whether it's Gary Johnson, or whether it's Jill Stein, those into dense the amount of votes they got, would have swung at the other way towards Hillary yeah. I remember looking into this for Jill Stein in particular, and actually it was the case she would have won the popular vote by even more, but in none of the swing states did she get enough of purpose, pitch, not just Joel Steinberg, Gary Johnson as well yeah, the Gary Johnson, it seemed to me- was split almost evenly between thumping Helen right, but this is an interesting case. So the thing that people yeah- I don't think about so much- is like, I think the process because of like a democracy, but like one single like check box every four years is like the smallest amount of information. You can be get Hannah and
susceptible to all sorts of different things. A supposing- and this happens on both sides of supposing Joel Stein became. You know really are really popular, took ten percent of the vote should I just killed Hillary. Like wrestling or suppose in the Evan Mark Mullen, whose name yeah he was a republican independent spoke, did well in Utah anyway, supposing five I kinda does does really well can takes all of the votes away from from the fact that that's possible shows that, like fast I suppose the voting system is very bad? Voting system is not accurately representing the will of the people, and we could do so much better than it would mean that, like as a democratic pose, as he be much closer to representing what people actually believe, a feel about things, because right now it means that yeah, you can be influenced
stuff like how much support as a third party cat. That's a terrible system. It's terrible system it last too long the decisions last for four years, this person gets locked into position unless you impeach them and then remove them from office there stuck it sucks wish. I could talk about it more, but I can't I gotta get the fuck yeah. I know a lot about this. That does the least interesting thing we talked about, but the a I and all the other stuff just fasting stuff. If people want to know more about your effective, altruism movement and more about you, where should they go, they should go to effective, altruism, dot. Org. That's got tons of information that fact about them. If you want to, if there's one takeaway, the you really wanna, do you think, while much of this is kind of cool, I do want to make more of a difference. We've just launched a set of
funds, so it just means you can donate within one of these, because it is a global development. Animal welfare or preservation of the long run future against global catastrophic risks. You can just donate and have it insured that will go to the very most effective non profits, zero percent overheads depending how you tonight and like we don't take any money. Along the way and just means yeah super easy to donate as effectively as possible, alright, beautiful you, will appreciate amount of money is really fun will be back tomorrow with Jim Norton. See you Thank you. Everybody for two is a podcast thanks to K band coffee for fuel in us with caffeine, caveman, coffee, c, o dot com use the code word road in annual save ten percent off any of their awesome products thanks you also to square space. Your solution, if you need a website no longer have to
Search, you can make it yourself and you can make it awesome for a free trial and ten percent off your first purchase go to squarespace dot com forward, slash Joe, and thank need to stamps dot com stamps dot com. You don't have to ever go to the post office again, if you go to stamps dot, com click on the microphone at the top, the home page and type in JRE, and you will get their special offer that who's a four week trial, plus postage and a digital scale without long term, commitments that stamps dot com, click on the microphone and type in J O r d- that's it for today yeah we did it with back tomorrow, with my pal, the hilarious, Jim Norton Profession stand up comedian and podcaster he's on the UFC, uncensored podcast, my other pal, the terror. Sarah.
And I always love talking to Jim and Smart he's funny as shit and should be great. Alright, so we'll see you then bye.
Transcript generated on 2019-10-05.