Oh hello, everybody how you doing this May 12th this Friday may twelve. I am in Dallas, TX actually grand prairie I'm at the Verizon Wireless Theater with Ian Edwards and Tony Hinchcliffe, an it is almost sold out, so don't sleep and then July, seventh I am at the car theater at the MGM with Tony Hinchcliffe and a bunch of It's going to be announced next week. Tickets, are available at Joerogan DOT net forward. Slash ash tourer this episode, the podcast I got a lot of. I got a lot it going on. Ladies and gentlemen, but before I even tell you the sponsors, let this the pod ask that you're about to hear is my favorite podcast ever so that said, it's third buy Legalzoom.

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to in my life and was on fire in this episode. So without any further Ado, Jordan Peterson, the Joe Rogan experience. Welcome back Mister Peterson. Thank you. How are you not too bad. How are you doing doing good man? You look like um, a man who was dealing with a considerable amount of stress, but his handling it well yeah. Well, I hope that's true. I think the first part of it's true. I hope the second part is true. I've and that you were denied a grant for the first time in in your history as an academic. Yes- and you think this is well, based on your outspoken and very public uh

denouncing of the political correctness and of all this stuff that you've been going through over the past more than a year? Now I don't know because I haven't- got the full commentary on the grant. Yet I only found out that it was denied and it takes the granting agency awhile to send out the full report. I've heard from other people I know other people who I would consider relatively high profile- researchers walls also didn't get funded this round. So there might be multiple reasons, but I can't help suspect that the fact that the grand application concentrated on delineating that personality characteristics of politically correct belief might have had something to do with it still a taboo subjects, fastening that thinking and thinking and pondering and examining certain types of behavior would still be a taboo subject: yeah. What is amazing all right and becoming more taboo? All the time I would say, I don't think the universities her have

I think, they're getting worse still, it will be awhile before they get better. I should say that so globally, but certainly the case with the humanities and much of the Social Sciences. But it seems globally. I mean not necessarily in terms of uh all the different subjects, but certainly in terms of what you teach and what you were involved in and It's so me, I hate, we use the word, but it's so regressive to put restrictions on the examining of thinking in a university I mean it's kind of crazy. I mean what what you through in one of your most recent public speeches where They allowed these kids to be in the room with you with bullhorns and they were screaming eventually see if you can find the video that was the name Master Master Master University yeah and you were giving your speech

and they were supposed to be some other people involved, they backed out you decide to continue on so you're standing there in front of these people that were there to hear you talk and there's a group of kids with bull horns likely. Early and shouting and yelling and chanting with signs in the room just completely disrupting what you're doing and they allow this all to happen. Horns as well told They were blowing air horns quite close to me. That was the one thing I really objected to, because their horns actually happened to be quite loud. No, I don't know yeah it's it's actually an assault on your ears, it's very bad for your hearing like you're, not supposed to be in a room with those without hearing protection. They're supposed to be like for, like scary thing, play some of this Jamie. So we can hear how crazy this

regardless of the distillers emit yelling, shut him down, no freedom for hate speech and the Hates this thing, has like the prince symbol, meet some sort of martian language like what the fuck is, that they have. On that note, no freedom for hate speech. I guess it's a poly gender Simpson, symbol of some sort, there's a fist in it. It's one of the things that was really not so good about. All of that was did a lot of the people who are protesting were standing behind a hammer and sickle banner. You know which just absolutely amazes me because I still haven't been able to quite figure this out. I can't figure out why you could do that with a nazi symbol, but you can do that with a hammer and sickle. You know it's there's a reason, Maybe it's because the Nazi doctrine was so explicitly racist, but God is not like that hammer.

Sickle, wasn't equally murderous or actually quite profoundly more murderous as it turned out so, and how We cannot still know that is beyond me and and to only behind a banner like that, without realizing what doing or even worse, realizing it and still or using themselves behind it into airplane. About hate speech now there's no real communicating with people who are constraining like that they're in a kind of trance. You know, and I went up to try to talk to a couple of them and but when you people who were in that state of mind they're, not looking at you if you're, a human being, you know, you're the you're, the target of their conceptualizations you're, the realization of their can. July stations course they didn't listen anything I said: well, hardly anyone did. Although I got to talk outside 'cause, I took everybody outside and then spoke out there for a while

and when you were outside with a still yelling and bull horn yeah. But but what happened? I went outside and I stood on a couple of inches so and and the people that wanted to hear kind of made a circle around me and them more or less by chance pushed all the protesters to the back. So they could so that I could address the people that actually want to. Meeting actually wanted to listen to what I was saying and so did you have a dialogue with them? Or did you give a speech and how did that work? I didn't have a dialogue at all with the protesters with the people that came to see yeah yeah that worked out. Okay, once I got outside and I'm I mean I wasn't particularly upset with the fact that the protesters had showed up. I mean for actively speaking be As I mean, it is peculiar situation where, if the protestors show up that's good and if they don't show up, that's good too it's good if they show up, because I have access to a to a you body audience obviously, and then it gets filmed and the films get put together and not get

that gets put online and, generally speaking when the social justice types have come after me, they've done a pretty admirable job discrediting themselves and so it seems to be all to the good and then, if they let me speak well, then I get to speak and I can put that on Youtube. So it's it's a. The strange situation for me, because, as long as don't do anything too stupid or anything any better than I have done. Let's say I seem to come out, ok and like I'm, not I'm certainly not counting on that continuing and I'm not. I'm surprised by it, but So far it seems to be working out. So you know parade well the way you handled it is admirable. The way you kept your cool and just continue, talking and and didn't flip out and didn't, didn't, give and didn't succumb to the provocation it's, because they're obviously provoking you and they're. Obviously understand how the university allows them to do that, how they allow

to be in that room, first of all, with those air horns which are really bad for anybody in that room, who's near them. It's. Cause hearing damage yeah well in the one person who is who is horning me was really quite. Are I would say, let's say for word about it, to know that they were coming close enough to me to to to do some damage and, and and but you know, I I have seen the odd person out those rallies that really isn't Well put together, you know people I look in their eyes and I think now you're you're, initially here for the wrong reasons, and I think it's more characteristic, often of the guys that I see at the events rather than the women. I mean I'm not sure about that, I'm obviously speculating. But right, you know I have a reasonably good clinical intuition and some of the guys I see at those events there. I don't know what the our story is man. I don't know what they're up to. I guess there. What are they trying to do be allies of the women for their own the various purposes. I mean that's what it looks like to me. You know

well, there's, certainly an issue with that yeah, it's a it's a common thread with men that, especially in the male feminist category, that they they align themselves with these women as allies and as this they take this more high ground and there this person that's going to show you know other man how to do feminism and how to behave with women and there really just sort of they're mining actuation suffers social points. Yeah, you know for social and sexual points, my sexuales, absolutely sure, there's something seriously creepy about it. I mean I saw to that that that guy at the Berkeley, the recent Berkeley administration, the guy who hit someone with a bike lock her in a bag and he was hiding behind some women and then he darted out just nailed the guy with a bike lock with turned out to be a bike. Lock. Guy was just hanging there talking, he wasn't being violent. He wasn't doing it

and by the way that guy turned out to be a professor. They found that guy yeah and so has not been verified. All of that this photographs of him this photographs of his face, they compared the his eyes to the professors that they know that the guy was there and then the guy. Aligns himself with Marxism and he's just like communists. Socialist professor who's, very adamantly against right wing in ideology and this kind of shit so he pretty sure that that's the guy yeah yeah well, I kind of followed that- and I noticed that I mean for as far as I'm concerned watching what he did. That's the true face of those people, it's assault. I mean he a guy with a deadly weapon. Yeah I mean I also thought it was blackly comic that it was a bike lock. I not that just figures you know so, well. It's just the idea that you could just walk up to someone. You don't like the way they think and hit them in the head with a metal thing is just it's so crazy and so delusional, and so in Dick

have someone who looks at a person as the other you're not looking at it as a human being who disagrees with you like in now? a young human being like talk about a lack of empathy. I mean you're expecting this year old guy or how old the guy was get hit in the head. You're expecting him to have his ideology down, solid and not be influenced by p here's or not be Curie, it's about what this argument about. The guy was even yelling anything he was standing there yeah well, that's kind, I talked about this the protesters at Mcmaster, too. You know it's partly why don't get upset? It's like a look at these kids that are out there protesting. You know, apart from the professional professional protester types, and I think well, Jesus they've been served so badly by the education system, that it's absolutely beyond belief. You know they're, basically being sent out as avatars of this pathological post, movement by their professors, who are themselves too cowardly to show up generally speaking, and certainly aren't, aren't brave enough to debate me

or if they do show up there, like this guy with a mask on hitting people in the head. Who was a professor yeah? Well, they don't believe in dialogue. You know it's not part of their. It's not part of the postmodern ethos. To have a dialogue with people. You don't agree with you weren't able to talk to anyone that opposed you not so for not many series sense when you able to talk to anyone that had the hammer and sickle sign and said and asked them like. Do you understand what this dance forward? What does this mean to you like what what it? What are you trying to project by having the sun yeah? No, no wasn't wasn't possible at that then you I mean, like I said whenever I got close to anybody that was protesting, that there was no one to one human interaction. You know I mean I can tell when someone's going to be going to communicate with me and when they're they've kind of got cold eyes like a card fish, you know whatever they're looking at, has nothing to do with me or very little to do with me. Well, that seems to need to be one of the weirder aspects of this thing that you're going through this that this

these all these. The series of altercations you're going through is the think of discourse, and there was one that you went on television. We talked about the last time you were here, but it's very bizarre and Roger person that was saying: there's no Gender there's no biological basis for gender, which is just complete, insanity and you shooting that down. It might be insanity, but it's canadian law now or soon to be federally. So it's insanity for sure, but but it's the kind of insane it's going to have legal force very soon. What is specific, likely that there's no well with Bill C. Sixteen, which was the that I was complaining about or criticize, let's say, there's a variety of rounding policy documents that are derived from the Ontario Human rights. Commission- and they indicate quite clearly that you're to regard biological

gender identity, gender expression and sexual proclivity, as varying independently, which, of course they don't buy, any stretch of the imagination there so tightly correlated that wall, use correlation to imply cause or to infer causality, but Jesus when the correlations are above. Ninety five, you have to start wondering if there's actually not some causal link- and it's exert to me that we, We even have to have that discussion, but the notion this is being taught to school. Kids, this. This isn't this is mainstream doctrine Joe, I mean the gender look up gender unicorn, that's a fun thing to look up and what is the gender unicorn? The gender unicorn? Is this little happy symbol, that's being marketed to two children? You know we in elementary school are describing to them. Fact that biological sex, gender identity, gender expression and sexual proclivity very independently, they're going after them very young, and so that's part of

that's part of the school system. Now in many many places, so in many ways it's sort of an indoctrination thirty times you might say that the the gender Unicorn General Record man check that thing out: gender identity, female woman, girl, mail, man, boy other gender, gender expression, feminine masculine, other sex assigned at birth, female male other intersex, who, like aliens physically attracted to men, women other other. Under S. Yes, mostly attracted. So what you do if your kid is, you put a little marker there on the arrow to show where you're low, I don't know all those independent dimensions and obviously, if you look at the at the style of the gender unicorn You can tell what sort of age it seemed out. 'cause that looks like it's aimed for, certainly not aimed at kids over, I would say ten

yeah. Why did the gender unicorn have a double helix dna symbol, where its penis or vagina search should be that's to indicate that there's no there's no such thing as biology, I presume, but I know that's how ironic yeah, it might say so yeah, it's it's a weird place to put it over the crotch of the unicorn yeah. There's an indefinite number the weird thing about that as there's the gingerbread ginger gender bread person, that's a gender bread person has a male symbol, female symbol and then wore down my ball. Altogether with a circle with a is that a whole song whole circle strange problematic place for the circle. I would say very I would say so. Yes, yes, I don't like that at all. I feel triggered well. The whole thing is It's so bizarre, but what's even more bizarre, is the lack of dialogue. I feel like urine

weird position where a tremendous amount of support for you, outside of the academic system. People like me, people like So many people that support you Youtube video videos. So many people that read about you online your period. Seeing all this backlash, I'd like Mick Masters and these sort of things, but there's people, engaging you and the way they're they're, keeping from engaging. You is saying that you are demonstrating hate speech yeah, I'm that base some others hate speech. There's racism. The reason I've been called a racist is because I complained I criticized the University of Toronto's decision to use that trundle. Chow of black lives matter as policy advisers, and the reason I did that was because the two women who founded black lives matter. In Toronto, let's say they have: let's say they questionable reputations and leave it at that, and so apparently it makes me racist because well

you know all these reasons in them because apparently not well. Yes, I'm blown one of them has publicly stated that white people are inferior to black people, we don't have enough melanin in their skin and melanin is the chemical that communicates cosmically so that you're, spiritually enlightened. That was one essential, Clemen other one is is embroiled in lawsuit with the University of Toronto. Students Union for essentially she's been accused of him yeah the embezzling, with a couple of cronies, about four hundred thousand dollars from the coffers of the students union. So I felt that perhaps those weren't the best people to for the city of Toronto, to be associating with when they're formulating their anti racist policies. Well, clearly, that makes your Asus clearly clearly. Well, it's I'm trying to make as well all together, yeah it's in one little. Lump sum really fascinating about that is like you're, not saying anything about black people are saying about two individuals to individ.

Rules that you are having very specific. You know, everybody that makes up a group is the same. You see you have to understand that men and women right, that's right, except and women's men and women could be anything well. There's an interesting angle on the transsexual thing to it, because these activists they stand out and claim that they're standing for oppressed communities right and first of all, they identified the identity group that there that activate activating on on the part of as a community and and they imply that it's a homogeneous community and then they state that, because they happen to be members of that community by their own admission, let's say or by the declaration, that's a better word! They are now legitimate representatives of that community and one of the things that's been quite fascinating to me, since this is a curtis that I've had a very up a comparatively large number of letters from transgender people about thirty five so far, and every one of those

except one was positive. They're, not happy about, like that, my sampling of the Trans Community, which isn't It's not a random sample or anything like that, but thirty, five letters is a lot when the community of people is actually quite small and they're are. Happy at all that they don't they don't they're, not happy to be so publicly discussed now. 'cause many of them would just soon have some privacy, you know when they're already having trouble fitting in they don't regard these people as legitimate representatives. They don't believe they're not homogeneous in their political viewpoints. And they're, not necessary sounds of the people who are playing gender bender games because many of the trends tools, who are let's say serious about it. You know for lack of a better way of describing it aren't happy that this has become a kind of a fad. Essentially in that they are being used by the politically correct types to further their political agenda. So that's quite cool too, because it

it isn't obvious to me at all that the attitude that I have towards the situation is actually different in any genuine sense, then the attitude that at least at some stage a minority of the transsexual people themselves have and there's plenty of the on Youtube, who are complaining about the social justice appropriation of their of their moving entity you well, I don't even know if they have a movement they're, not a community right. I mean that they're, not a community. I mean a community zinc continual contact with one another, they have something that directs their actions. In common I mean, but you know the on the on the on the post modern end of the spectrum If you have some identifiable group feature, then that means one of that group and that everything that you do indicates indicate Only that mean they are there, levers in in race and gender and Sex

they believe in the reality of those of those categories, far more than anybody on the right. As far as I can tell so, it's very peculiar and and unnerving so so and and widespread and powerful and all of those things. So it's very peculiar that they are not into labels unless it suits their purposes to not into labels or into generalizing behavior in less it suits their purpose and also another thing. That's Weird to me is that whenever something becomes an issue that becomes discussed, that becomes a hot button issue. Which clearly transgender rights, whether it the North Carolina bill to keep transgender people out of the bathrooms that associate with that identify you know, but that they identify with with whatever gender it is. There's some sort of a hot button issue. There becomes This thing where a bunch of people seek attention through those issues and these people,

use whatever issue. It is too becomes like a part of their identity like becoming an activist, and and really being very vocal about it, whereas the actual cause itself gets muddied in the cult of personality, and it gets but in these personal wishes and ideas that the people who are seeking to get attention by communicating about these ideas sort. Of us, so you know it just because out a lot about human nature and human behavior more than it is about the actual issue, yeah. Well, it's an opportunity. Each of these hypothetically contentious issues is an opportunity for certain kind of sterile drama to unfold and the dramas, Who is the same? I mean you can see that in the in the demonstration say with regards to my talks. It doesn't matter what I'm talking about and it actually doesn't matter what I've ever said If it matters is that there is no

Asian and an excuse to trot out the ideology and two hundred and two hundred pathetically mouth, the same Unbelievably sterile and chaotic phrases. You know I mean the. I think the people at Mcmaster the protesters could only muster about every chance and two of them were seriously obscene and mean which I don't care about, except that its sole mindlessly on imaginative when it it's their operating at such a low level of of intellectual effort and and, of course, eight dawn by their path. Along your postmodern professors who are hiding behind them, like, like scared, scared, weasels so there's shut him down. That was the big island, racist, transphobic, homophobic. All these things with

substance, because there's no he's not shipped was the other one that we all right. That was quite tough transphobia, so sure, just that's right. Yes, no, no more! The more, a more specific yeah was more specific, which was you know, rather flattering and all of that yeah. So it's a you, don't seem to have any hate towards trans people at all. No from the discussions I've had with you, both on and off the air, the idea of you being trans. Phobic seems so inaccurate, because you seem pretty accepting about anybody. Whether it's a Trans person, a gay person, it's it's not. The issue is a lot more concerned about whether or not people are honest. I mean I don't want it, that's what I that's, what that's my fundamental orientation and soul or my fundamental concern, I mean I don't expect people to be one hundred percent, honest because of course who is you know, I mean that's a hell of a required standard hold anyone too, but all of that is smoking mirrors, and I think the people who are after me know it bullets so

skip through some of that just to just to sort of establish it for people. Maybe they don't know what issue do you have any issue whatsoever with someone being trans gender. No, I have any issue with that. What I have an issue with is that is that I don't like to see postmodern, NEO, Marxists, used the trans will issue as a lever for pushing forward there are political nonsense and I said that right beginning in the in the videos are made to begin with. The reason I wouldn't use the word zeons earn is all those other made up words. However, many there are now is because I'm not willing to cede the linguistic territory to postmodern radicals, I'm not doing that and they say well we're doing it on behalf of the oppressed transexual, people, and I think, yeah. Well, that's what you say, but there's no reason. I should believe that, don't believe anything you say. I think your contemptible cowardly idiot logically motivated cult like correctors of the use,

so why would I use your language, let's unpack that, because one of the things I find fascinating is how few trans gender people want to use those words, the Trans, gender people seem to want to identify with whatever gender they like it. If you or a male to female transgender person. You would prefer to be called a sheet right, like Caitlyn, Jenner, right right and pretty much. Everybody calls the the artist only known as Bruce Jenner, Caitlyn Jenner right. That's that's just it's like. If you had a look at how many people just open the it's pretty, it's pretty well accepted most Trans gender people prefer that they prefer female to male. I prefer they prefer to be a man. Now, I'm a man now, ok, Bob Dick, whatever your name is, and there's not a lot of disease or well. It's warm out of the loop, no you're, not out of the loop. The other thing is those are all third person pronouns like I know, I'm not going to call you a third person pronoun, while we're sitting here, you know I never would, if I'm referring to you

When I talk to someone else, their name right well, I could use your name you're right. My might use he won, but I don't know well right. Just all of it is palpably absurd ate it. I think it's always hard to get the level of analysis for the sort of issue correct. You know because the people were pushing it forward, say well we're against harassment and and and discrimination and- and they attribute all the moral virtue to themselves. But then what I see is that they're utilizing us a group very small minority group who already have enough problems. In my estimation, for not other than straightforward political purposes. I don't buy the arm. The warm hearted know all inclusive all that the people who are pushing this sort of thing forward claim to display. I don't see that at all what I see mostly is resentment the desire to undermine and I'm quite familiar with the post, modern philosophy, not as familiar as I could be, and also reason,

really familiar with its underlying marxism and there's nothing touchy feely. About any of that. I can tell you the postmodernist. The best you can do with Porter Postmodernist philosophy is emerged, nihilistic, that's the best, the worst this that you're a kind of typical social, revolutionary, that's directionless, except that you want to tear things apart or that you end up. Test, which I see happening to students all the time, because the postmodernists like rip the remaining structures of their foundations. The reticle foundations, so just to be really clear for anybody and your issues are absolutely not with someone who identifies with a gender other than their biological gender as long as not using that to to promote a political agenda? And I don't care, the gender thing right out. That's sums me anything. Well, it's someone it's it's a personal. So it's a personal issue right now, personally, should personally issue and and

I also deal with it on an individual to individual basis is, it varies just as much as they are extremely masculine men, extremely feminine women and there's a broad spectrum of human beings in between and each one should be dealt with on an individual basis. Yes, based on what they want, but when you're talking about these made up words, what seems like. Is it some people trying to push these made up words and turn them mainstream? Now the question is: what's the motive behind. That. Is this a necessary thing? Are there so the people that are of a sexual or of some sort of me. What a z are. What is that supposed to be? Is that supposed to be a male or a female? Is it supposed to be sexual or is it supposed to be a non conformist mean what is it? Well, it's to be someone who, who gender isn't specified right. Neither male nor female, or maybe they

they. They say technically in the in the policy guidelines is. Anywhere or no. We on the spectrum and that's actually in the policy guide, lines in Ontario, where or know where right and the? No, where I mean these are, these are policies that are big that are going to determine law right that within which the law is going to be interpreted. I don't even know what no, where on the spectrum means. I don't understand what that means doesn't mean anything it's well since it's nonsense, so you have so here's the options right. There is someone who identifies with the opposite: gender of their biological So there's a man, for instance, who identifies as a woman everyone's cool with Whatever your name is whatever you would like to be called, whether it's Wendy or MIKE, whatever it is? That would be the ways that you want people to make with their mouth. That means you! That's it right now, whether you're a he or a she outside of that. That's where things get squirrelly. So third This is the only issue the only

is like saying we're talking to Jamie Jamie, just decided he's going be now he's still show me James Girls, name too. I know girls name Jamie, so he could be Jamie Ann. Jamie, decides, he's a woman and now he wants to be called. She work: okay, okay. She alright Jamie now your she, but when it it's to like Zur, NZ, in the seventy eight different gender pronouns, it seems to a person outside of it person, who's cisgendered. It seems pretty pretty bizarre and it seems pretty preposterous and it seems pretty indulgent and it's like there's something else going on in this? Well, that's the thing it's that is there something else going on part that that that is what concerns me. There is something else going on in it. If there wasn't something else going on a relative obscure professors Witcher Ish Youtube videos on a relatively obscure

piece of canadian legislation wouldn't have had any effect right. It would have just disappeared when it didn't that's because there's more going on than the the straightforward issue surrounding the pronoun use, and everybody knows it for everybody feels it at least what it seems like from someone's outside of academia. Some, like me, is seems like you're, pushing back against something that they are really trying hard to establish and then it's some kind of control some kind of control with how people behave and communicate, and it's not not like a societal thing. It's a very small, isolated group of people that seem to be trying to indoctrinate others into their ways, and they they are becoming very vocal and very angry. An innocent, like verbally violent about your opposition to there

trolling the way they commit that other p out. While they don't like thing poking holes in their ideology in the post, the post, we could lay it out quickly. Okay, you know, because I've been I've been thinking about how to communicate this properly, and so the thing about the postmodernists and I'm gonna speak mostly about Jacques Derrida, because I'll consider him the central villain now he actually, he may make a point explain who he is. Please he's a he's: a french philosopher, french intellectual, who became quite popular in the late nineteen, seventies and then was introduced to North America through the Gale Department of English and of course, english literature is one of the disciplines that has become entirely corrupt, and so did was a marxist to begin with, but that fell out of favor because it turned out the March this. Is political doctrine kept producing evil empires and even radical left french intellectuals were forced to admit that by the MID 1970s,

you know they put their head in in the sand for twenty years, fifty years really thoroughly in the sand and made sure their ears were full too, but by the mid 1970s. The evidence that that was the case was overwhelming that even a french intellectual couldn't deny it anymore, and so they started to play sleight of hand with the marxist ideas. So, instead of trying to promote the revel open of the working class against the against the capitalist class. Let's say they started to play. Identity politics and said well, we can just separate everybody into oppressed versus oppressor, but we don't have to do it on economic grounds and so weak and I can call it power instead of economics, so that was part of it and then the other thing, but the fundamental critique, the Derrida this focused on this is this. Is this is really worth laying out, because that the problem that he discovered the post modern discovered, was discovered by a variety of other people at the same time in other disciplines. So, for example, among the people who were studying artificial intelligence

it's the early 1960s, it was always supposed that we'd be able to make machines that could move around in a natural environment without too much problem and the reason We could do. That was because the world in some sense, was just out of simple objects there they are now you have to do, is look at them and you see them and that's vision and then the complex problem is not how to see or what to see, but how to act in reference to what you see, but it turned out that the AI people ran into this problem, essentially sometimes known as the frame problem. Frame problem is: is that there's almost an infinite number of ways to look at a finite set of objects? So the fact that that vision for turns out to be way way way more complicated than anybody ever ever ever estimated. In fact, you can't actually solve the vision problem until you solve the embodiment problem, so an artificial intelligence that doesn't have a bar We can't really see because seeing is actually the mapping of world on to action, and so that was figured out more

more or less by a robotics engineer called Rodney Brooks, but but what's at the bottom of this is the idea that any set of phenomena can be seen a very low. Number of way. So, like there's a bunch of pens in front of me here, you know when I look at my brain basically notes that there are grippable object with which I can write. So I see the function like, like if you look at a bean bag, you see a chair not because it's got. Your legs in a seat in the back, but because you can sit on it and most what we see in the world. We actually see functionally rather than see as an object and then interpret the object and then figure out what to do so. The function of the object strange our interpretation, but there's an end. Number of interpretations. So, for example, if I was going to paint that you know paint on canvas this set of pans and try to do it in a photo realistic way. I would be looking at tiny details of these objects. The the motor, shades of red that are there in the multiple shades of white and black, and you know I would

compose it in many many ways, and so the a you guys ran into this problem, which was that looking at the world turned to be exceptionally complex and that's still being solved now. Okay, literature, the same thing happened. What what the modernists realize was that if you took a complex book, let's say the Bible, for example, or a Shakespeare play there's an endless number of potential interpretations that you can derive from it, because it's so complex and so sophisticated. So imagine that, well, you can interpret the word you can enter, but the phrase you can interpret the sentence you can tear apart the paragraph you can interpret the the the chapter but say you have to interpret that within the confines of the entire work, then of the entire tradition and then within the context of discussion that you're currently having and all of those things affect how you're going to interpret the play. So

so that their conclusion was well, there's an infinite number of ways to interpret a text and then their conclusion Well, there's an infinite number of ways to interpret the world and there's there's a way in which that's correct, and so the next conclusion. Was there's no right way to do it, so you could any old way, and then the conclusion was all, and this is where the Marxism creeped up again old people interpret the world in a way that fits Tate's their acquisition of power. Now that's where the bloody theory starts to get corrupt because yes a bit, but also no right, because- and this is why the wrong. This is why the wrong you see the world is complicated, beyond our ability to comprehend. So there a very large number of ways. You can interpret it, but but you have to extract out from the world away a game from your interpretation that you can

actually play. So if the lesson that you extract from Hamlet is you should kill your family and yourself, then we might say that that's not, very functional interpretation right because first of all, people are going to object to that right, it ends your life at ends. Many peoples lives, people are going to object to it and it isn't a game that you can. Play over and over again in the world. So when were when we're interacting with the world, you see what we're trying to do is too extreme. Check a set of tools that we can use to funk. In in the world, because we're constrained by the world so that we don't suffer too much and so that the things that we need to continue can be provided an we need to. Track, those out in a way that other people will so that other people will cooperate and compete with us in a peaceful and maintainable way so then you think. Well, we have to extract an interpretation that allows us to live and thrive over multiple periods of time in multiple,

parents well we're doing the same thing with other individuals who are motivated the same way. So there's a and this number of constraints on our interpretations and the postmodernists don't care about that at all. All they do is a well. No, no. You can but the way the world the world anyway, you want. All people are ever doing playing power games based on their identity and there's going to be no crosstalk between the power hierarchy? it's not even allowed. That's why they don't engage in dialogue. She just to talk to like let's say if you're, if you're a postmodernist, just to have a discussion with someone like you. You know a heterosexual. What do they call this? this gendered male of power, you know and white to boot. It's like that's, evil act in and of itself, because all your doing by engaging in dialogue with that person is validating their their power game. That's all you see, and this isn't this isn't. This is no aberration that these people don't engage in dialogue, that it's no aberration, it's built

right into the philosophical system. They regard the idea of the idea that, if in one power group and I'm in another, the idea that we can step out of that group engage in a dialogue have our worlds meet and reduce some sort of understand, yeah yeah some sort of negotiated understanding. No that's part of your your oppressive patriarchal game. That idea that whole idea is part of your game. So if I even engage in the dialogue, I'm playing your game, you win it's a completed site, so it's complete you People don't understand that Post modernism is a complete assault on two things one, it's an assault on the metaphysical substrate of our culture, and I would say that the metaphysical substrate looks something like a religious substrate, so it's a direct assault on that and the second think it's an assault on is everything that's been established since the enlightenment rationality, empiricism science, Everything Claire

give mine dialogue, the idea the individual. All of that is not only you see, it's. Not only that it's up for grabs, that's not the thing it's to be destroyed. That's the goal to be destroyed like the communists, wanted get old part of the revolution to destroy the capitalist system. It's the same thing. These people know, you might say Well, does every social justice warrior activist know this? It's like! Well, no, of course not it's not not anymore, in any every Muslim knows the entire muslim doctrine or islamic doctrine or every Christian knows the entire christian doctrine? You know what's fragmented among people, but then, when you bring together the fragments unite and the entire philosophy axe itself out. So you don't think that this is a nefarious plot. By a few Well planned out individuals that have some sort of an agenda that they're going to promote.

This ideology 'cause. Then they understand what they're doing you feel like it's. What you're saying that there's a bunch of different factions bunch a bunch of different parts to this, and it could be a lot of it is that people feel disenfranchised socially. They they are empowered by their positions in universities and by, these insulated environments and groups there, intoxicated by the power that they have over young people and shaping their minds, and in an imposing their ideologies, they receive feedback, from these kids? It builds up. Strengthens they shore up the walls around them and they push this forward and then, when they have something like this speech that you gave at Nick masters and they get to actually act that unites them unites them, and this is what you're getting from this glazed. I you know

odd, low, yeah yeah! Well! Well, it's it's as if it's like Richard Dawkins idea of meme! No, if you imagine that in your in your narrow Norrell structure, whatever ideas that you're manifesting are represented neuron by neuron. Let's say it's a web of neuron Not any one neuron has the entire idea set. This is obviously an oversimplification, but you get the point. There's a network from which the idea emerges well, the My idea is, is that an idea can just to point, multiple individuals as if each jewel is a neuron and so and there are people who are more or less fully informed as to the nature of post, modern doctrine and there pushing it forward, consciously and unconsciously, they're consciously Ford and acting it out, and so there are individuals who are more representative of the entire set of ideas and individuals who are less representative, but if you get them together,

group, the thing that animates them and unites them is the common set of ideas and those ideas were produced the post modern french intellectuals in the in the MID 70s, roughly speaking, shocked era, Michelle Foucault. Who was the person who, famously pronounce that psychiatric diagnostic categories were primarily social in origin, rather than logical and you know I read for Work- I think it was madness and civilization where he advanced, that particular doctrine Actually read for Colin, like there are done, but I just found. He was writing obvious. It's I knew from my clinical training that psychiatric categories have a sociological construction, partly because psychiatry isn't a science metal isn't a science it's an applied, and so those are the same thing at all. You know. A pure science is, is

clients. It deals with scientific categories like atoms, but an applied science. Well, it's uh remind between all sorts of different things and mental illness. Just themselves are shaped by the social environment, even though often they have a biological route. The way they manifest themselves as clearly shaped by society and language. I didn't find his work. The least bit um surprising, I thought. Well really I mean everyone who's, a sophisticated medical professional psychiatrist psychologist. Everyone knows that it's like I mean, there's a book called discovery of the conscious by a guy named Henri Ellenberger, J that was written in the believe in the sixties, great book on history of psychoanalysis and like he covers the shift in diagnostic cat. He's across time. It's self evident so anyways, there's all these french.

Postmodernists. They were all marxists. The most number student revolutionaries in France in the late nineteen sixties before that all fell apart, and they did two things they they pulled out. This song problem issue the issue of multiple interpretations and said well Nothing, that's canonical! There's no overarching narrative, there's no real interpretation, and I already said why that's wrong and then the thing they said was they did this slide hand, so, instead of the working class against the purse, was he it was it was. Against race or gender against gender unbeliever, device, if it's all they believe in his identity. There's no individual man that's going with postmodernism. This isn't the tax didn't all of this stuff. It's not random. It's driven by these ideas, like ideas, are always at war, always and we're in a war between these ideas. I mean marxism we already know was tremendously powerful. Doctor- and this is its newest manifestation

what is the motivation behind the individuals that are at the heart of this movement? Well, I would say that the motivations are as complex as as, motivations are in general, but they seem have solidified into a movement right? Well, I think the danger is part of it. Is that the it's a kind of it's almost like a scapegoat mentality, It's almost like psychoanalytic projection. That's another way of thinking about it's like what are the things that I've come to learn and one of the things I talk about a lot is that the battle between good and evil so to speak, isn't between states and it's not between individuals. Precisely, although manifest itself at those levels, it's an internal battle of moral battle that happens inside people, and so people have a broad capacity for malevolence and for and for benevolence, and that's a terrible war for people.

And it's a terrible thing to understand and realize in fact, often when people, lies their capacity for malevolence if they're not prepared for it, they develop post, traumatic, stress disorder that happens to soldiers in battlefields, so they go out innocent guys, you know naive, guys, young guys, and they go out the battlefield and- and they get put in a really stressful situation- and you know they they step out hide themselves and they do something leave a vicious and brutal and then they're broken. They can't take that manifestation of them and put it with like Iowa Corn fed. You know nice guy and no wonder because one is like a fly, eating Chimp Chimpanzee on a war rampage and the other is, you know, relatively well, brought up and polite

farm boy from the middle of the United States is like how, in the world going to put those two things together. Well, you can't that's post dramatic stress disorder and to treat that my experience with post traumatic stress disorder is that you have to teach people a philosophy of evil of good and evil, because the other basically can't recover and I've had I've had by the way. In the last four months, I've had two letters from people from soldiers with PTSD, and I met to personally who said that watching my lectures had had brought them back it together because they couldn't understand what what they had become before. Looking looking deeply at at the at malevolence now So I would say, with regards to this movement, this postmodern movement, the Clint aspect of it there's a there's, a couple of them when it's complete unbelievably authoritarian. If I got a letter today from a universe, student in italy- I don't know what university but she's, been having kind of a flame war on Facebook with

but the social justice warrior and at the end she recommended that this particular social justice for your seek out a local mental health counseling unit and put a link, do it in the in the exchange and she got a letter from the university. I guess the other person, The sjw type turned her in, but she got less. From the university saying that that violated university policy and constituted harassment and that she should seriously consider retracting it and that you know future employees. Employers might be looking at she posted? It was inappropriate to put that on the public site and it's like I thought, wow. If he, how could you be so clueless as a as a administrator say, to think that you're monitoring of your students, private utterances, you're, monitoring it institutional level and your intervention and threat at an institutional level is less it's dangerous than letting too

students, you know troll each other on on up on a public social forum. It's just I just I don't know what to think about it. It's just unbelievable. It happened in it's happening all over the place. The sword and so there's the authoritarian element to it, which is a hatred of. I think it's a hatred of competence. Because confidence produces hierarchies that aren't based on power. I think it's a hatred, clear, intellect hatred of clear in a like house. So when you say clear in well, you have a clear intellect, as far as I'm concerned I think, that's why you're so popular is because you pay attention and say what you see and you're, not too concerned about anything other than that I mean yeah. Of course you have an agenda because everyone has an agenda. You can't help but have an agenda if you're alive, but you can temper the agenda. Thank you can be clued in enough

try to listen and learn and watch and and pay attention to what your own senses are telling you and try to articulate that and that's what the logos is technically speaking. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because Jack Darida described western culture in a few. This phrase. He described it as fellow fell. P h, a l logo. L, o g, o centric fellow, go centric and needs to be brought down. Well, the phallus park, that's mail, the local park, that's logos! Now, that's partly logic, because the board logic comes from the word logos, but logos is a deep made, much much older concept that logic like low, this is it's essentially it's a theological concept and that's where things get complicated, but you could describe it as our as the matter. Station of truth in speech and the post, modern They don't like any of that so far.

Logo. Central logo be the ultimate Mansplaining as our yes, like any man who expresses or tries to correct in any way it becomes a man's or maybe to correct anything in any way it Kelly with, like you, you will where the to cruise Sally Yates testimony that's been going on in America. Last name. No, no, I'm not aware of that. I saw an example about an Australian, our congressional debate, where a guy was accused of man's planing by one of his colleagues and really like tore a strip off quite nicely yeah, what's happening in the states you will Yates is just been pretty brilliant. She was fired by the top administration, because The rejected this idea of what is. The very specific thing is about restricting immigration, about shutting down different people that are trying to come into the United States and she had this debate with TED Cruz, where she

it's brilliantly shut him down with you know her or her knowledge of the to and knowledge of what is and what is not legal or should or should not be allowed to happen and she was fired for it and he was grilling her an his yeah he's a very smart guy TED Cruz, although I don't with him, and I agree more with her the way it was going down. This debate was described as Mansplaining, because it was a man talking to a woman that recent. I also read about something like that with regards to the Supreme Court yeah, because somebody did an analysis showing that the female Supreme Court justices. Less than the male Supreme Court justices immediately attributed that to sexism, because you know how oppressed female Supreme Court justices are, so the the the still want to get back to this that the hatred or the dislike of clear thinking yeah. Do you think

this comes from people that that I'm not I'm not. I'm sure. I completely wrap my head around this, but do you think this is from someone with the they understand that their logic is muddy they on stand that their imposing of this muddy logic is illogical and some sort of way they feel it. They feel it feel it rather than think it I mean that's. The other thing is that There isn't a lot of clear thinking on the side of the social justice types, because a lot of what they're doing is is renowned ocean automation, level, yeah, yeah, well, they're, the best personality predictor of of of politically correct belief, because we've done this study, although it's not published yet is trade agree. Table and agreeableness. I would say the best way to think about it is that it's the maternal dimension. It that's an oversimplification, but not much of one so for anybody that the maternal viewpoint is something Anybody who's part of my in group is an

get in trouble and anyone who's outside of it is a predatory snake or something like that and so you're, seeing that manifest itself in a political doctrine you clearly seeing that today, with what's going on with these uh like the Berkeley, Milo Rally where people who are on the left, who you with, Think of as being pro woman, pro you know, anti violence are more than capable committing violence against women who support trump, because then they categorize them as Nazis to punch nazis, and I mean there's been a bunch of instances where you've seen video footage of people getting pepper, sprayed

hit with sticks because they were wearing the wrong. You know the wearing a wasn't, even a make America great again hat. It was actually a make bitcoin great again hat. This is a very famous video of a girl getting pepper, sprayed yeah. I think I've seen that one button crazy beyond by the left and by people who are supposed to be quote unquote, progressive and people were supposed to be pro women's rights, you know and violence against women, anti domestic violence? But yet they have no problem doing it to this other person, because this person becomes other because they're on the other side yeah. Well, this we were. I was talking about this line between good and evil yeah that runs down people's hearts. It's well, it's a it's a terrible fault line and it can be shocking. To see that it's the case, and so it's much more convenient for people to divide world into the righteous and the and the damn, let's say and then to persecute the damned it's convenient to, because you, whatever reason:

minted hatred and bitterness. You have in your heart- and you have plenty of that. Generally speaking, if your social justice type, because you regard yourself as oppressed and then like that's a great starting point for resentment and hatred right to be to be a victim. We know that that one of the precursors to genocide, and I'm not saying it all that we're near that state. I'm not saying that, but one of the precursors to genocide, in a genocidal state or in a pre genocidal state. Is the acceptance of victim step yes by the eventual perpetrators 'cause the idea as well- like we're innocent were being persecuted and those people are going to get us. So eventually that becomes well we'll get them first, and it gives us have a target for all your resentment in your hatred and it's a justifiable moral target, and so all the part of yourself that you don't recognize as contributing to whatever problem you think you know now pollutes the world. You can ignore all you're on the side of the good there's, no moral effort required and then

have someone to conveniently hate and hit and hurt and all the while, you can look at yourself in the mirror and say I'm I'm on the side of the good. I'm just punching nazis right, what is there hitting them with bike locks? You know, while you dark out behind a woman who's conveniently standing in front of you is there an evolutionary origin for what we were talking about in regards to soldier being able to commit these horrible atrocities in the name of war to these people they're able to look at someone who has a different, ideology as the other and attacked them is almost like a subhuman is there as some sort of an evolutionary origin for this, Disassociative, sort of thinking and behavior that some people seem to me, it seems like a very common thing throughout history. Sure anything that isn't part of your dominance hierarchies a snake, it's that and

it. It actually makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. I mean first of all, we are tribal primates right and are optimal. Group size seems to be something like two hundred and fifty. We can keep track of about that. Many so so relationships, and that's that's also that's right exactly and that's correlated with brain size, right yeah, so alright so you might say well why that size and then you might say well a It has to be optimized for two functions and one is what you want decline in the damn thing. So if it's really really big the probability, but you're going to climate is really low and if it's too small well, who cares? If you climb it, so you want it, you want it somewhere that that's big enough to climb and powerful enough to make the climb worthwhile and so and so there's some optimization there now. So you might think of I think within that hierarchy has explored territory and the reason for that is that explored territory

is where, when you do something you get what you want so so think about the conditions under which the limits of your knowledge, manifest themselves mean. Sorts of things. You don't know, well trillion things, but you know but there like torturing yourself to death there's a trillion things you don't know, but then, if you go the world and you act something out and come, is what you desire, then that registers an error so say you're at a party and you tell a joke and no one laughs. Well, the party see think about what happens to the space around the party. When you tell the joke Second before you tell the joke, you're in one place and the second after you the joke. When there's an awkward silence and everybody's looking embarrassed, you are no longer in the same place, you stepped outside the protective embrace of of that particular hierarchy and you've made your often alien and that's the thing that people use

process the alien is that it is the snake detector, the serpent detector, the dragon detector, and it's always been wait because anything, that's outside the hierarchy is a threat stranger strange idea any any. Any animal manifestation, any noise, any spirit. It's it's a it's a threat to the gritty of the dominance hierarchy and in many many ways. So, for example, it's deeply rooted 'cause. That was your question. What's the evolutionary basis, there's a great paper published in Journal called clause, one p, one about five or six years ago, looking at something absolutely terrifying. In my estimation, which was There's this there's this idea that part of what motivates the authoritarian end of political conservatism. So, let's say the right wing should stand, is a source. Created not with fear but with discussed, discussed is an entirely different emotion and

So these researchers did this fascinating study where they went to a number of different countries and also looked at states within the same country looking the relationship between the prevalence of infectious disease and or mortarion attitudes at the individual level, the higher the infectious disease rate, more authoritarian political views and and the correlation was really high. It was like one, it was point, seven The highest correlations between two phenomena: I've ever seen in the Social Studies Sciences and you might say, Why well here's one reason: I said that the Your idea and the stranger in the pathogen, let's say, are all the same thing. Well, it's all, because external threats to the structure of the dominance hierarchy know when they, when the Spaniards, came to the new world. Ninety five percent of the natives died, they died from smallpox. They died from measles, they died from Mumps, they died from chickenpox, because you don't know what the hell is coming at you when you let something new inside the dominance, hierarchy, Weather idea or disease disease,

words are a virus, think that was Lori. That was a that heroin addict author Brooks yeah. That was his phrase. Laurie Anderson made a nice video about that words a virus, and so we pawn to them with the same circuitry that we used to detect pathogens and I'll, tell you something even more fry when we were working this out, because it's associated with this trait called orderliness, which is actually good predictor of right wing political belief. I went back and looked at, Hitler's table talk to book, Hitler's table talk and he wrote that be it is derived from notes that were taken by his secretaries between one thousand nine hundred and thirty nine and one thousand nine hundred and forty two when he was eating dinner and spontaneously. Pounding on the structure of reality. He was very open Hitler very creative person, but also extremely orderly, and I looked at the the force that he was using to describe the Jews and the gypsies and all the other people that he burned and and destroyed, and all pathogen. It's all pathogen metaphor,

The aryan race is a body. It's a pure body. The blood is pure. Jews are rats or insects or or lice or disease, and so are the Gypsy and everyone else, and they need to be eradicated in burned out essentially and here's something even more frightening. So when Hitler, when Hitler first took over Germany, he was kind of a pub health freak hello, and he will also washed his hands a lot every day and he was also a worshipper of will power, so he was really orderly guy and he started this public health campaign in Germany and He put together these vans. That would go around like screening people for tuberculosis, which you was a perfectly fine idea, then the start beautification program of the factories 'cause. He didn't like how messy the factories were in Germany, so we had people clean them up to sweep them out and plant flowers out, front and and fumigate them for rats and insects. Parasites who, in the Jews were always compared to rats and inside

as well. They used cyclone be to do the insecticide well Cyclone B. That was the Yes, that was used in the in the death camps, so went like pathogen insect rats. Then it went into the Mount, is, you know, so so the people who were mentally deficient, they were like parasites in rats and then it was Jews and gypsies and parasites and rats they were using Zyklon B, not by Kane. I they were using Zyklon B. I don't know. I know that the gas was cyclone Zyklon a was the gas that was formulated with a very extreme smell so that people would smell it and no 'cause. It was extremely toxic, Zyklon B, It all came from Fritz Harbor Harbor was the guy who created the Haber method of extracting nitrogen from oxygen that we use for fertilizer today. Harbor create Zyklon A and made it extremely extremely toxic smelling. So you would know to avoid it Zyklon B that that it, whatever element was

moved from the snow yeah, I'm so that it would be used in gas chambers. They'd have no idea of there being Gastrite clamber who was a Jew ironically, did not know that his Zyklon A was eventually going to be used on its own yeah we I, I suspect they probably use icon a fumigation, so you know, but but the thing is: is that? Well so you you said what's the biological basis in the biological basis. Is that like we're? Basically why in some sense, also to two for the domain. You order or the domain of chaos. That's another way of thinking about it, the domain of order. Once again, is where you are when what you're doing is working, because you see because our our environment isn't just natural. It's Also social. So not only do you have to deal with the vagaries of the natural world properly so that it gives you what you're aiming at. That's how you know if you're right it gives you what you're aiming at

but you have to do it in a way that other people approve of an support. It's a very tight constraint. We talked about that as a constraint on the interpretation of the world, but then now in the and something happens to disrupt that stability. So that's like the white circle. That's the black circle in the White, serpent in the Yin Yang symbol. You know how the white one that's order. The white one has a black dot in it and that's because can come pouring through into order at any moment, and I have a circuit that detects that and that's the same circuit that detects snakes or predators and that, obviously, why wouldn't it be, you know an intriguing force. An intruding force has to be responded to right now, right so as a day and a need for a demand. Instantaneous response. Detainees spend almost like you were saying of those kids like almost a and on human. Or disassociate- have sort of the ability to act almost as, if like like something

other than a person with ease and allowed to humanize, Asia Right and and the DQ. The thing is is another thing. That's so funny is that we think that the natural wrist wants to looking at a human being is humanization and that isn't right, like the default person in some sense, isn't human, the default? Member of your. I was human I mean most tribes around the world, the name for their tribe is the people, implying that there are the people and all those other things out there are barbarians right there. Their forces of chaos, there are the stranger they the disease in trouble. Now I don't want to be too bleak about it, because this is the basic debate doing conservatives and liberals to some degree. Is the conservatives. Take the stranger equals pathogen route more

frequently and they're less attracted to the idea of the free of, or they work conventionally. That trade with the foreigner has benefits that outweigh the the the the risks and, generally speaking, liberals have the opposite attitude. So, but that's because those two things are both true One is that man, it's really useful to trade with strangers, because they have all sorts of cool things you don't have but be well. It might be real, interest because you don't know what those things are infected with, like, realistically speaking, let's say, but then Also, metaphorically speaking, you know here's an example of how how object can be a virus think about the automobile Like if you wanted to introduce something into a communist country, that's screamed our the pair.

Mount status of the individual. You couldn't possibly create something that broadcast that more clearly than a car the car is driven by one person. The person is completely autonomous, they're, completely sealed off they don't need any state support or sanction whatsoever. Move around in the car it's like, if you wanted to. If you wanted to rescue the communists from their collective pathology, best thing to do would be to Judy in automobiles because the automobile just screams, individual autonomy, and so you, when you, when you get a an artifact from a foreigner, you don't know what that's contaminated with. Let's put it that way, So we have a circuit for dealing with that and it's a it's a it's. The thing that associates the foreigner with

the force that eats the sun when it sets at night. That's the most archaic way of thinking about it, but it's the snake or the predator, So what do you do with a snake or a predator man burn it? You kill it, you crush it. It's like there's a there's, a destructive force that comes along with it. With that, that's absolutely! Well, it's morally righteous cuts. Yeah, you know. If it's a poisonous snake and it's threatening the village, obviously you kill it and then you're. Calibrated for it, So in a sense, the same dehumanizing force that allows people to act. That way in war also allows people to disassociate between anyway and who doesn't agree with their ideology in a school setting in a university like what happened. Yeah! That's why I don't like it! That's. Why don't like ideologies, because the would, you divides the world into those

safely flea within our dominance, hierarchy and serpents, and so that's yes, and and the reason that that this doctrine that I described about the line between good and evil running down the individual's heart I mean I got that particular line mostly from Alexander, so when, but it's also a it's a it's an idea. That's been helped intensively in the west for ' thousands of years I mean maybe it's being developed since far before we. We invented the stories in Genesis because, of course, the serpent. In Genesis. Of course Genesis is like a paradise right, so you can think about it as well. Functioning hierarchy. It's also a balance between chaos in order it's got walls and it's a garden so but there's a snake that pops and that's the same as that, as I said that blocked off inside the white serpent in the Yin Yang symbol. Is that no matter doesn't matter how perfect the

it is set up something that doesn't fit. Is to make its way inside. It's one of the the stories of kind- and you see the thing that makes it sigh itself manifest inside in the Genesis story is a snake. Now that snake so to be Satan, which is like how the hell does that happen? It's a snake like what? Where does that come from it's it's, not actually in the biblical writings to any degree, it's part of the surrounding mythology? Well, it's partly because people started to figure out that the worst snake wasn't a snake. The worst It was the snake that was inside a person, because level in person is way more of a threat than just a snake. Like a wants to bite unit wants to eat you, and all of that and they were hell on- are extremely primordial ancestors, but the human race has been trying to figure out where the threat is forever well. First of all, it was external right. It was all external The snake was the barbarian, but then it got

lies to some degree inside the individuals, like that's a bad person, it has a snake in them and then the idea it came out. This is so cool. The idea is that, while the snake, that's inside bad person a and the snake that since I bad person is some All the same, so that's where the idea of of an articulated morality starts to come from if there's an equivalent of evil across individuals, so then idea of evil itself starts to become abstracted at the same the idea of good does what gets associated with Satan and Satan gets associated with the snake. It's it's mind. Boggling I mean these are how these we were champs for Christ sake You know it took us a long time to develop up say ideal just to say the word. An ideal replies implies counter ideal say: well those things

they were embodied way before they were ideas and after they were embodied first, not as bad, but as a bad thing or a bad person. Bad had to be extracted out of that, and even that was extracted as a drama. First, you know it's like the bad guy. In a movie, he isn't a bad guy he's. Compass said bad guy, you know, he's he's a literary bad guy and the good guy, Just a good guy he's a literary good guy he's a hero he's got way more heroic attributes than the typical person and that's where abstract ideas are born. So anyways back to your question, the use you said armed with evolutionary basis for that sort of yeah. Does she do yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah that was a big rabbit, hole man? No, it's a great rabbit hole in it. It makes a whole lot of sense that there's an actual dead there and- and I knew you probably knew this, which is why I asked I knew you had an answer, rather that there is

some sort of an evolutionary basis for that sort of that ability that people have to look at someone as the other, you Well, also, how the hell are you going to respond in war? If you don't have that right? My dad was always an issue with people with invading tribes and, like you said, with other external threats, It was animals or insects or snakes or anything that could yeah. Well I mean in in in a primordial situation. I mean guys are in warrior mode, a good part of the time and modern people don't even know what that's like. That's why they go out and they go into warrior mode and they get post, traumatic, stress disorder, because it's so, unlike the way they can figure themselves that that they can't even can't even bridges. The gap between the two identities and for just for sake of clarity. I think for some folks, um post traumatic, disorders actually come from not just that, but also from the threat of being attacked from what I understand: um people like special ops, people

people like Rangers and Navy seals and the like are less likely to develop post traumatic. Stress disorder because they're acting versus reacting that there's people that are on that are going on like patrol and then they get blown up like those people apparently have a far more likely issue with post, traumatic stress disorder, because they're constantly worried about these extern. Threads and then they when they come back to civilization, they have a very difficult time getting back to baseline. They're in pray, yes, really very serious way. Yes yeah. So it's it's not just acting, but it's also reacting that the reacting issue sometimes is even more more problematic for the individual and the acting mode. Yeah. Well, there's a funny dichotomy there, because very frequently, if you're going to encounter a stress, it's best to do. It voluntarily use a whole different circuit use the approach circuit, and so I mean that sounds paradoxical. What you just said, because I said that you know

often observed themselves, doing something, get post, dramatic, stress, disorder and then you said well yeah, but if people act less likely to, but that's, but that's part of a more general phenomena, which is that, in the face of a stressor you're better off cycle physiologically to act voluntarily, either you're either going to be that thing. It advances on the on the normally or its prey nuts. That's roughly the way to think about it and to be a prey. Animal is a terrible thing because it's doom. It's paralysis like literally speaking. It's it's like in the Harry Potter Series with the basilisk great you look at the basilisk and it turns you to stone. Well, why well, because that's what happens to a prey animal when a horrible predator looks at it it's frozen. It's turn just don't that's medusa with all her snakes. She looks at you, man, mother nature, looks at you the like the devour part of mother nature, opens her eye on you. It's like your parallel that's an old old story that is

The really interesting thing that I never consider that modern medusa does have this head of snakes and she looks at you. She turns you into stone, and that is the biggest issue with people. It's not fight or flight people think it's fight or flight. It's fight, flight or freeze. Right. The freeze thing is very common with people and I've seen it. I've seen it with people that just they don't know what to do. When they're in a stressful situation, instead of reacting the freak out, yep yep they freak out. Are they freeze, you know, is all the two yeah. Well, you can see that if we go back to that example of say, someone tells a joke. Maybe they're kind of socially anxious and they finally managed to mumble out a joke, and it falls flat. It's like the freeze in the face That is very common reactions. You know the personal freeze then often no break into tears and run Well, if there's socially anxious, that's exactly what's going to happen, 'cause they've! Now they also know that they've been turned into a predator. Let's say a snake predator by the community:

very shaming, and that that is dumped on top of them. I mean not socially anxious. People are afraid of that, all the time that there, can be regarded by the group as an outcast, pariah, right yeah, and it's very hard when people in the paranoid amongst them are always thinking that people are talking about them and trying to make them the other right right. Yeah, yes, very uncomfortable state of mind, yeah? This is a very. I think this is a very important subject and a in explaining it. This way, I think, for the open minded. Whoever is willing to listen to this, who maybe might have opposed some of your ideas before I think we'll get a better understanding of what's really dangerous about this lack of dialogue. This lack of engaging in this shutting you out and making you the other as it were, yeah. Well I mean it's what postmodernism is fundamentally concerned about? They don't believe, there's any other way of operating in the world, and that you see in- and this is this- is one of the

things that I think western civilization has contributed so brilliantly to to the expansion of knowledge in the world is what's the What's the cure for the inadequacies of the group? Well, you might say it's the perfect state, so one of the ways I'm going to do a series of lectures on the Bible starting May, sixteenth and and for reasons that I outlined to some degree when I was talking about Genesis a little bit earlier, but in the old estimate, for example, the Israelites are always trying to make their peace with God, so they're trying to live in the world without getting wall up constantly by natural events and by you know, invading forces in which they attribute. To God's will? Yes, yes, there, whatever is beyond their understanding in some sense, they're more sophisticated than merely this, but whatever is beyond their understanding, but they're kind of conceptualizing being as such and trying to figure out how to deal with it and one of the hypothesis they come up with is something like well, you can bargain with it and the thing is you can that's one of the things that's so cool

all and partly the reason you can bargain with reality is because the reality that encounter as you move for in time is partly the world, but partly the abs, Rach Social system, and so you can bargain with the future abstracts. System, all the time you do that every time you make a promise you do, every time you sacrifice one thing for another: you know you see you for go. Impulsive temptation and that gives you a moral claim that you can redeem in the future. That happens all That's what money is, for God sake and know. We discovered the future at some point: As I said, we were chimpanzees at one point we discovered the future, then we discovered that you could bargain with the future as if it was a person. That's amazing. It's amazing and that's partly where the idea of God, as a personality came from. I should front flip that that idea that you could bar with the future, came out of the idea that God was a personality because the God as a personality idea, came first, but it was a. It was a

the developmental stage on the way to even be able to say the future. You know we no idea how this is like a six million year path from chimpanzee to to self aware. Human being, you know, and we don't I have no idea where these unbelievably sophisticated ideas that we have come from. Like the idea of sacrifice. Do you know how much blood was spilled? for human beings were able to sacrifice abstractly instead killing something we had to act out God enjoys you killing, something because he's happy with the blood we had to out. For God who knows Twenty thousand years- one thousand years before we anywhere near, the idea that you could do that abstractly. So when I look these old stories. I look at them like in evolution a now I'm not trying to reduce them in any way, because what we don't and about evolution. That could make a very thick book and there's other strange things about

religious phenomenology, that we don't have a clue about. You know like the fact that the drug zoloft called entheogens or psychedelics can reliably produce mystical experiences like no one has any idea what to make of that, you can just discounted it's like yeah. Well, you know their drugs, yeah sure people being using the things for who knows fifty thousand years, one hundred and fifty thousand years, might be the source of all our religious ideas. I don't I'm not saying that they are, but they could well be, and so why do we have a capacity for mystical experience? Who knows it it's it. It's associated with the sense of all its associated, with the same feeling that you get when you listen to protect early, dramatic music Are we in now we something moves. You deeply and know the hair on the back of your neck stands up. You know what that is, that's partly where action that's the same thing that have just do a cat when it looks at a particularly big dog, it saw, you feel,

When there's a swell of music are your hair stands up in the back of your neck? It's like you pop up, just like a cat except you don't like a bald cat. So what do you make of this This idea that well not the idea, but the reality that these entheogens closely mimic human neurochemistry know what they do. There's absolutely, no, about that body? What do you think the reason for that is well part of the reason is, is that we share an evolutionary pathway with all these things that we eat. You know plants and fun guy and you know, look we're work link. Evolutionarily to every form of life on the planet? You know and like serotonin in lobsters has the name on lobsters as it does on human being. So if you up there serotonin levels artificially the lobster get stands up more erect and and stronger much more willing to fight and if you decrease the serotonin lobster nervous system that it gets all depressed and runs away and hides think of it. It think about that I mean we speak. We split off from lobster

about three hundred and fifty million years ago, and they still I live in dominance hierarchies, that's how the dominance hierarchy is there's plant, that's older than trees, older than flowers. It's permanent right. We've evolved for the hierarchy, and in the Spirit of the hierarchy, that's that's the old testament, God that's at least part of it the Spirit of the hierarchy. So these things are well there boggling to me, which is partly, why I'm investigating them, but All of our wiring is conditional on that so what I mean. Women use the dominance hierarchy to select mates. So it's so strange because you know people of evolution from a natural selection perspective almost always but sexual selection plays a huge role, so here layout something wild for you. Okay, so we know that you twice as many female ancestors as male ancestors. Now people have a hard time with that, but you could imagine that roughly

speaking. That would happen if every single woman had one baby and only every second man fathered a child so for men it would be you either two kids are zero. Well, that's basic what it is on average across time, if you're, a man, you have two children, maybe with two different women or zero. If you're, a woman, everyone has one, that's how it averages out so there's more disparate of success among men and that's very common in the animal kingdom. By the way. Now the question is how do women select their mates now, unlike female champ female humans are choosy maters female. Will mate with any champ. They go into heat they'll mate with any chip. The dominant males are more likely to mate with him, but that's 'cause. They chased away the subordinate. It's not because the females exercise choice human feet this exercise choice and that's one of the things that differentiated, from chimpanzees, but how they do it. Well, they look at male dominance hierarchy. That's where the men are competing. Now you could

they're competing for power, but that's pretty corrupt way of looking at it like there competing for, let's say, influence they're competing. Leadership, and so in some sense the people at the top of the hierarchy. If their men are elected by the other band now I know there's brutes and there's predators and all of that, but I'm talking on average across time. It's, like the men organized themselves and there are influential man that rise to the top and the women take them now. He think about that. What that means is that over the million of years that a dominance hierarchy with those properties existed? So, let's say, since we split from chimps, let's say that six million years that means that male dominance hierarchy is the environment that pushes the mating male to the top, so that is the mail that's most likely to take precedence in the dom in the male dominance hierarchy is the one most likely to leave a genetic contribution, so that but the male dominance hierarchies. The selection mechanism mediated

the female. So what that means is that as we've moved forward through six million years of time men. Have become more and more well adapted not only to the presence of the male dominance hierarchy, but to the ability to move up it and that's the central. You could say in some sense, that's the central spirit of the individual. The individual is the It can move up, dominance hierarchies. It's the thing, that's at the top, it's the eye at the top of the pyramid, and it's been selected for, and what's happened is that we've watched, so we get better in better and better for by law, Ical reasons, call actually mediated at figuring out how to climb across a set of dominance. Turkey. So we can leave a genetic contribution. That's what's happened to human beings. Now imagine that has happened for six million years so imagine that we started to watch that, because we're curious creatures I was trying to figure out who we are and then, as we

watch that we started to tell stories about what the people who can climb the hierarchies were like those were heroes. That's were here, mythology came from and the biggest hero is the person who go out and kill the snake. Well, unsurprisingly. Because that was a big hero. Man and maybe, when we were living in trees, that was a hero, so big hero, the person who goes out slays the dragon gets the gold brings it back to the unity and distributes. It he's also the person most likely to go up. The dominant turkey he's the person most likely find the virgin right it's a virgin that you free from the dragon and you get to claim her right, and so they dominance? Hierarchy is a mechanism that selects heroes and then breeds them. Ok, So then we watch that for six million years we start understand what it means to be the hero. We start to tell story. About that, and so then not only are we genetically aiming at that with the dorm Turkey is a selection mechanism mediated by female choice, but

stories are trying to push us in that direction. And so then we say well, look that person's admirable. Tell a story about him, and we say this person is admirable. Tell a story about him in this person is admirable and at the same time we talk about the people who aren't admirable and then we start having admirable and non admirable as categories and out of that, you get something like good and evil, and then You can start to imagine the perfect person. That would be not only so it would be. You take ten Advil people in you pull up someone, who's, meta, admirable and that's a hero that becomes a religious figure across time. I becomes a Savior or Messiah across time as we can. What the ideal person is. And we did in the west. Here's how we figured it out. We said the ideal person the ideal man is the person who tells the truth, and what that means is that the best way of climbing but any possible dominance hierarchy.

In a way, that's most stable and most lasting. That's that's the conclusion of western culture, so, in a sense psychologically, when you talk about postmodernists and their rejection of these classic male structures are what they doing realizing that they're not going to compete in the the classic as stayed did mail hierarchy so they're creating their own version of it sure that's the creative element, sure We reach you we out earlier. What's the motivation of these pathological, guys who wrote there like bolstering up the feminists yeah? Well, you know they don't compete any other way. They don't compete. They figured out how to compete. They compete as allies. Let's say very sneaky wow yeah wow yeah, that's how everybody was described him to When you I mean it's almost like a a you, we I avoid doing it because I just it's just almost feels good rose to label them like that, but that is the way you think of

male feminist, you think of them as sneaky yeah and yeah it's creepy indiscriminate, is discriminatory towards clay I male behavior well and no wonder yeah they've got a hope leading in that hierarchy. Wow, that's deep! That is deep. This is going to be hurtful to a lot of people. So how people listening to this right now very upset yeah. Well, you asked earlier why why the postmodernists? Don't like blunt speech, yeah? Well, that's why man? You know it's like the truth is something that burns it burns off, Deadwood and people, don't like having the dead wood burned off, often because they're like ninety five percent dead wood and I'm not being, I don't believe I'm not being snide about that! It's no joke when you start is how much of what you've constructed of yourself is based on deception and lies. That Horrifying realization and can ease, maybe ninety five percent of you

the things you say things you act out. You know it's Well you see that in Pinocchio, which I often you discuss Pinocchio when he gets corrupt as he as he matures. He first learns to lie. Many be comes a brain jackass on pleasure, island, it's like and and threatened by the underground authoritarians right, they're going to sell him to the salt mines. It's like yeah. That's for sure it's exactly right man! So Then you figure out your brain, jackass and you're lying all the time. That's a terrible realization, and then all that needs be burnt away and people don't like that, how you been embattled in this conflict for quite a long time in I've got to imagine that the way you look at the world the way you see things, many many steps ahead. Do you see any sort of a logical conclusion to this process? Do you see any light at the end of the tunnel or do you

see it impossible to avoid conflict like you. What what do you see when you look at this whole thing long term, well, I would say I can't look at it long term and reason, for that is that- and this is why I get a kick out of all the Keck. Pakistan boys. You know I do it of chaos. What's a is a mythological, It's ruled by chaos by the guard cat who's, a frog bite with a frog as it turns out. So I don't. I don't know about this, oh well, you need to look them up. That's a big internet thing: Kekistan, yeah, yeah, yeah, big internet thing all I know, but the frog, the frog that Trump Frog Pepe the frog with Dave, who is apparently distraught that his frog has been used to show them off a kill them off with good luck? He didn't all right so that the stupid of his the people who were who were using peppy, I haven't, got the story quite right, but I'll get it mostly

The people who were using Pepe as a meme used That's a look of Texas, yes, so the Salario that use this symbol, Ktvk Hahn to replace LOL and the reason they did. That was because Kate DK in Korean means lol, and so it was just this little joke check Kek and somebody found out. These were people who were zing Pappy remember to frog. Then people found out that Kerik. Egyptian God is he's a frog and he was categories sort of like a transexual. By the way he between categories, and so now they have this republic of and it's ruled by this egyptian God, whose name is cat, the a frog hold on, go back, go, don't don't keep changing this. Jamies doing this in the background, while you're talking but look at this there's uh, frog with a make America great again hat he's got like a tombstone

It says those who served in the Meme war, two thousand and fifteen and two thousand and sixteen we are the gods of great meme war. We are the shitposters, the legion of Kek. The internet, the death. Of the normies these, Uncac. We are one why the fuck is going on. Now. That is the question and that's the question you asked me and my answer was: I don't know we're in a period of chaos, we're in a period of chaos and in appear chaos, the time horizon, shrinks because because outcome is uncertain with this seems to be truly embracing. Chaos mean just that statement. The frog the Donald Trump thing and with the hat on this This is one of the things that seems to me to be a reoccuring feature in this whole chaos ballet. It watching play out. Is that people? are enjoying the fact that Donald Trump sucks as a president, they don't feel threatened by it.

Like it and they loans, don't like it, because they want to burn this mother fucker to the ground and torch this thing and like Phoenix will arise from the fart. No, no! It's not that it's that they are enjoying that it's falling apart. This is why we are the shitposters. Do you know what shitposting is yeah Jamie friendship posting, you really good explaining it. If you do posting for, like literally no reason other going to get someone mad, it's almost liked rolling, but it's like a separate level of Tro Ling right right way to say it. That's good ways: provocation for its own sake, Jamies the first person to tell me about Shitposting. I wasn't aware till about what year ago yeah? I think it was unclear about pre election time. No so I mean there's rules for operating in chaos, because that's and you're in the belly of the beast or the belly of the whale and you're underwater here in the underworld you're in underworld in chaos. And so that's a really cool thing to know Joe. So imagine that the

the normal world of mankind is inside that dominance hierarchy where everything is going well, because nothing Normal is happening, you're, getting what you need and you want an your conscious knowledge suffices right, ok, but then something Yeltsin, not structure, no longer works, so. Where do you end up in underworld. That's what happens when your partner of twenty years has a has. A long term affair can you find out about it like you? thought you knew where you were, but you did, and now that you found out you don't know where you are well, when you don't know where you are you're in the underworld right and that's where the unconscious forces play. Those are the gods is God's in the underworld People go to the underworld all the time, it's chaos, and depression, hopeless, Listen this it's everything ok. Realm is terrifying to people, terrifying and promising, terrify in promising his dragons have gold, because it's always,

the unknown has two things just like the future. It's like lookout. It'll. Do you in and look out it offers everything to you. That's the underworld! That's why We're always goes into the underworld to find a cave full of gold guarded by address and in the heart of it literally yeah you will for sure don't tell the story of mankind. It's three. Really our oldest story, the underworld is chaos, it's they often down there, there's all sorts of play of possibility and the reason The frog was the was the guard, of chaos is because of the frog. Is this thing that doesn't fit into categories? You see because it's partly water. It's partly land, it's tadpole! Yet it's it's adult right. So it's like fish and then it's like an animal. It doesn't fit and it's things that don't fit the So apart the categories right. Well, that's what the sexual student, the category of gender, for example, and now puts you in this state of chaos. It puts you in the state of chaos.

And that's what we're in now we're in a state of chaos, and so what are the rules for all in state of chaos. Well, as far as I can tell the fundamental rule when operating in care, this is tell the truth, so, for example, if you went for the people, that want to navigate this successful yep all you've got that's what you've got has a shield and a weapon and and and that that's the guide That's that's the way through one. You see that hero stories all the time you know. So it's it's a lot. It's allegiance to the truth, but the truth is a strange thing, It's a very strange thing. Often the hero in a story has to later their dark side before they're capable of telling the truth right in the hobbit, for example, he has to become a thief right because we have to get tough. That's the thing that's the also the thing about telling the truth is that it's not for

not for the naive, not at all, and partly it's because it burns off deadwood, it's partly 'cause. It hurts peoples, feelings it's a sword, so you have to be a warrior. Wow, a truth. Warrior. In this time of chaos right what emerges from this right? Sometimes sometimes it's catastrophe. That's the thing about these categories. They're real the real and you know the optimist that I hear say well depending on swings and then swings back and I think yeah well. Sometimes it takes a here's to swing back and it takes a hell of a lot of people out on the way and sometimes it swings back at all so know sometimes people go out to fight a dragon and it just eats them or burns them and that's the end of that. Right and like

we're in an unstable period of time at the moment, in a transition period of some sort. I can't put my finger on it, but I know that that's partly why what I've been saying, is be resonating with people, because Please note about pronouns. Well, it is, it is, except language turns out to be about a lot more like you can't take a little thing like that, desire to transform pronouns and think that that's a little thing it's not a little thing. It's also your disagreement with this use of these new under pronoun words they're trying to force on people, has opened up this disk option where you can, in light people on your very deep understanding of human psychology. It's not just simply Gender pronoun disagreement or transphobic erases your transphobic piece of shit. It's this uh, unity? Now, because of this I mean

essentially they fucked with the wrong dude to say the right way, because it you're you're actually any of the licensed tee shirt like yeah. It's it's like not shallow, in any sense of the word to mean the doing the aid you in this. This battle of rhetoric is it allows you to expose your very deep understanding with the problems that are going on right now with human beings in general. Well, it looks it looks like that to me, because what happens as far as I can tell with with my you tube channel say, is that people are often pulled in because of the so justice warrior stuff, but then they see. I have all these other videos and they're curious about me. Partly 'cause people are calling me names and so then watch a video to anything they. I haven't heard that before yeah, you know, and then they watch a bunch of them and then they write me say man. That was really helpful and I say thanks I'm really happy about that, because I am

Are you in an unmanageable position? Now, though, as far as like responding to people 'cause, I can't like I try to respond to people, but I can't yeah it's not. No, it's not possible. I would imagine like and over the last few months must be just overwhelming yeah yeah? Well, I've given up to keep up on my email. It's just not. My wife helps me with that, and I've had some other people help me, but you know I do is I look and I try to say thank you to people and write them lines when I have a moment, but you know, because I can't get to all of it- they just come in, Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah right and it's too bad people. Are. Writing me very heartfelt long letters often brilliant frequently, like using letters telling me you know their experiences the author, Atarian, left or or the way they've been, you know in in one way or another or or house, to clean up the room, change their life, that's quite fun, because it's something I always tell people to do. Instead of going out and protesting Jesus

cleaning up the room, yeah meaning well, my sense is that if you want to change the world, you start from yourself and work outward, because you build your confidence that way like. I don't know how you can go out and protest the structure of the entire economic system. If can't keep your room organized yeah, it's not an issue with people, though, that they always want to enact some sort of control over the outside world when they're inside is all fuckedup yeah. It's also people that the most adamant about it. Well, I think, there's some truth in that But there is truth and not I mean people try to outside world for lots of ways, but many of those these aren't just pure good, but you know I thought about well. I made a video call, which was called message to millennials, where I was it was called how to change the world properly a bit of a on the potential side. I suppose, but I was trying to produce

I think that was a counter position to this idea that what you should do is go out and fix up other people. You know what that's just not right. There's a new test would learn about that something about. You know, not worrying too much about the log in your neighbors I or both the spec, neighbors! I, when you have a log in your eye like yes, no kidding, but Do you really want to do you really want to face that? So what I thought about is that what what you start to do? Is you start to tell and act out the truth? Local like within the domain of your actual competence. You know because the world presents self as a series of puzzles, some of which your capable of solving and some of which you're not and you many puzzles in front of you that you could solve, but you choose not to you know that those are. Things that weigh on your conscience. It's like you, know, should really do this, but you don't like so I had this idea along time ago, because the world is a pretty dreadful place. I thought: well, what would the world be like if people stopped

meeting the things they knew they should do. You know, because the question How much are we contributing to the fact that life is a is an existential catastrophe in a tragedy. How much is our own corrupt and contributing to that? How to really worthwhile question as you leave on done, because you're saying Are you resentful? You're lazy? You have inertia. Well, you consult your. And so it says: well, you know that place over there. These little work. It's the same I working on yourself, and so you clean that up, because you can then things little clear around you and your better off because you've practiced a bit and and so your little stronger and then something else manifest itself and says? Well, maybe you could like take a crack at fixing me up too. So you decide to do that. That gets a little bit more pristine, You know when soon and it's humble because you're, not exceeding your domain of competence. You know it's like don't be fixing up the economy eighteen year olds,

you don't know anything about the economy, it's a massive Lex machine beyond anyone's understanding and you with it at your peril, so so even clean up your own room, no! Well, you should think about that. You should think about cuz. If you can't even clean up your own room who the hell are you to give advice to the world. That's a very, very important thing for people to hear it's a very important thing for people to hear, so many times I mean here's. A perfect example of understand, be able to resonate with it resonate with them. Rather, when you people that have a lot of is Racial memes on life Instagram and Facebook through almost all up L Ron Hubbard was complete. Really insane and was self diagnosing and the things he was trying to do. I mean, if you, Lawrence Wright's book going clear, he was clearly trying

fix himself in dating this religion, this religion. That was a lot of it based on self help principles that he took from other sources that you see from a lot of these people that are like a I there's, there's legitimately motivational people that are find great benefit in being an example, a powerful, strong exam. When they found great comfort in showing people the their methods that they used in order to improve their life like your own self auditing system that you're promoting yes It just it's not that they're all that it's all, it's all the not reveal, or you know no there's just it's not like, there's no way that people can improve the price. Quite the contrary, big people can improve themselves. I think to a degree that we don't understand. You know, because a human being for better or worse is something potential, as well as

thing actual right. That's really weird that idea of potential, because it's not actually measurable are tangible reasons. We seriously believe it's something like the idea of spirit. You know about potential yeah, but people believe in it is yeah because I might say what you're not living up to your potential and you might disagree but would definitely understand the statement right and just think. Well what is this potential? It's like! It's not actual it's not real, but it is isn't it though, if you see someone special artistic you see someone who may be a self sabotage with drugs or alcohol or personal chaos, but they can create amazing music, but they never get it out. And you see that often times with artists and often You see that after initial success, you'll see some amazing,

Motivation early in their career, then initial success and then self sabotage after the fact not realizing their potential. The obviously they've hit some sort of a frequency with their resonate with people that appreciate them. Authors, you see that with musicians comedians all sorts of people to create things and then they're not living up to their potential, because they've allowed the demons to take over the inner kings of their mind. You know so and again, I'm not talking to you there's a lot of sincere people that are motivational people that I follow. I think there's a lot of people out there that are then they take great pleasure in expressing to other people.

The things that have benefited them? So I don't? I don't want to sell they don't work well see. This is part of the reason I like the psychoanalyst Freud, and you know because I spend I would say particularly young, because I I don't haven't read anyone I regard is deeper than young he's, terrifying, truly terrifying, but but here's one of the things that differentiates him from the typical self help person. I really love this that he believes that the pathway to completion as a human being is through the is through the embodiment of the monster in body, men of the monster, that's the discovery of the shadow you see so young didn't believe that I'd, be a good person until you realized your capacity for evil. I don't mean acted out in the world, but I understand that it's what's possible, not only understand it, but that then to bring it under your control. You see because there's a big deal. Rinse between someone, who's naive and is a good person there now

they're good person, because they can't not be there like a domesticated, housecat, there's nothing. They don't even the capacity to be bad. So there's no reality in that the morale, It comes when you're a monster can control it and that's the an encounter with the shadow, so young said, for example, that the roots of the shadow go all the way down to Hell and what he meant that is that you can about? It literally you think about it, metaphorically will just think about it. Metaphorically is like You start to understand who you are, then you understand the Nazis. And who wants to understand the Nazis understand sex criminals. I can understand them right can understand and the reason for that is because I can see that as an aspect of myself, truly bye,

one of the things that so entrance terrifying to realize that which is why it's terrifying to realize the shadow, which is why people don't do it, it's no! they don't do it. You know it's the horrible thing to realize that you're human and what being human means like angel like Christ, to Satan, that's the human being, and you might say well, those are real. It's like okay, well they're, figments of the imagination that the human race constructed to describe themselves. Fine. Does that make it less frightening? I don't think so. So and it's not. It doesn't make it any less frightening. If you take those two extreme seriously- and you might say well who's going to take the Christ Extreme seriously. It's no problem. Man dispense with it. He I get rid of the other side, see how you do with that so he idea that you find so compelling.

Essentially that one has to understand their potential for horrific a view that it almost exists in all of us that it's a facet of just the human experience. Well, look I know partly why your soap it's 'cause, you're a monster Look, I watch what you did to the Kardashians on your on your gender on your comedy. Show man, you did this whole gargoyle thing yeah! You remember, you laugh yeah, so you can even laugh about that. I mean it was. It was horrifying to behold your crouched up on the back of this chair, like a terrifying to do oh yeah. I could believe you did it with the problem with doing it is this is going to sound fuckedup, but while I'm doing it, I'm not thinking I'm doing a comedy sketch. This is what's up about it, while I'm crouched there, I'm thinking like a demon Uh huh like wow, that's the reason why I do it that way and the reason why I do it in the like I'm very flexible.

Right. So it's one of the reasons why I do it in almost 'cause. I want it to be, in an almost in a way that you don't imagine human beings moving. You know that it's like it confuses the mind because it's not standard human movement and then on top that the way I'm thinking and then it's like explosive like when he yells out nonsense, and I say he 'cause, I don't think of it as me. I really let's it sounds so pretentious ball, while I'm doing that. My brain goes into another place why you can't do it. You can't do that unless you're a monster I think it's c because very happy when I retired it by the way I I I really I was really quite taken off. I was very impressed by it I mean I thought it was hilarious to begin with, but the fact that you would go there. I thought that was really interesting and comedians are like that. 'cause they go into dark places. There tricksters

they're, a mediator between the normal world in the world of the gods. There tricksters so it was very funny to watch you do that and I wondered how far you would let yourself get into it, but I part of the reason that you're appealing to people? If, if you don't mind me by me saying this, you know I'm not trying to be forward, particularly, but I thought about it. A lot is that your tough guy and you tell the truth, but it's both of those together. That's what's doing it because you know people don't look at you and they th and think like holier than Thou preacher. That is what they think. They think tough guy who's, trying to figure things out right on that's good, that's a good your good figure for the times, because this whole war against the fellow goes centrism, you know need calls forward, who are like you if we're lucky and your guys who have this warrior end because you know you're a fighter so and

If you're going to be a fighter, you have to want to win and you have to want to hurt people not for the sake of hurting them. That's what makes you different than an evil person, but you have to have that capacity. You have to develop that. I know that's the step on the way to enlightenment weirdly enough, because that isn't what people think well, I definitely think that truth is valuable commodity. In this very bizarre time an I think, it's also one of the reasons why you're very popular is that you have stuck your neck out in a world that does not encourage it, nor nor today me, and not only does it not encourage it encourages the exact opposite. Encourages you to take your head, you know in in the books and just in in some way shape or form go with the tide like. Whichever way it is get your ten year and it just. Yeah. Well, it's intellectual pride, I don't consider myself an intellectual precisely Would you consider yourself what is it

actual if you're, not how about nobody. Well, the thing because my ideas aren't disembodied, I asked him out: but to the romantic in some sense. Well, I don't live in my head. Exactly some degree. But what is an intellectual? Do then Do you think of it as a pejorative, when I think the term intellectual do you think of it as a limited person. Well, it's a funny thing in this book called thus spake zero through Strip Nietzsche has two stroke come down from a mountain top after being enlightened, and he sees this. He goes into the public square and there's this little tiny being There are like an inch high and has a gigantic here on it, and it's talking and people are gathered around listening. That was sort of niche is metaphor for an intellectual. It was like most little except maybe the rational faculty or something like expanded to monstrous dimensions on,

It's did not matter and and and and prone to become the sub of totalitarian ideology. That's the worship of the rational mind that the catholic church always warned against. You know it's not like the catholic church. Of course I have to say that I won't even say it but you don't need to know, that's right, that's right! So, but the point is I had a warning in the warning: was that the rational mind like to fall in love with its own creations right so the term intellectual. The problem is that it it identifies one aspect and it it's sort of defines one aspect of behavior and thinking only one yeah, it's the intellect not as well. What happens is it's it's like it's like the intellect is raised to the to the star this of highest gawd. That's the right way to think scene, God here's another way of thinking about it, that's quite cool. I learned this from you and you can take it for what it's worth.

The highest ideal that a person holds consciously unconsciously, that's their god. It functions. In precisely that manner and people might say well I believe in God, it's like well, it depends what you mean. Right and I'm not being not being foolish about that. It's like we're very complicated Creech And we're run by all sorts of very strange things down there in the unconscious. You know, and the Greeks thought we were the playthings of the gods, because We serve lust. We serve thirst with the serve hunger we serve rage. You know those things all trans send us. So that's why they were gods rage, that's the war God. Well, why is it a God? Well, it exists forever. It exists in all people, it takes them all directs their behavior, it's a god. Well, you can. You can quibble about the details? No, it's not a god! Ok, fine, it's a psychological force

right! Do people get too hung up on that one word: well, they don't they don't really. We have to think about. It functionally to some degree. We have to think about what that idea means. What are we? We, we I do forever. Just some superstition Jesus. We gotta be more Suv dictated than that man right. You know and that's partly well. This is partly what I think is unfortunate about the new atheists. Let's say: is they don't take the damn problem seriously? They think well, Christianity, that's just a bunch of superstitions like really no sorry that's just not deep enough man. So what it really is is the accounts of peep, will trying to workout the issues of being human. Let me give you another example, this is so cool. This is so cool. It's Northrop Frye, who is a biblical scholar in in at the University of Toronto. This was

this was? One of his elucidations of the structure of the Bible's, the Bible, actually a story in which is weird because it's whole bunch of different books. Written by a whole bunch of different people, edited kind of Willy nilly over thousands of years and then assembled by committee, it's really strange book, but it has a narrative structure and that sort of emerged as a collective desicion across these thousands of years. So the old testament. Here's the rough story in the old testament, Israel is have a middle power and it rises to power so and domination and then a profit rises and says: look you guys are all successful. Now you starting to get corrupted paying attention to the widows and children you're, not running your state. According to the Super Ordinate principle, you might say: well, the superordinate principle doesn't exist. It's like ok, keep it running that way and see what the hell happens. That's what the prophet says, usually

the risk of his life. He says that to the king, so I believe in God. You don't believe in the Super Ordinate principle. Let's say that the superordinate ethical principle no problem, keep doing what you're doing. Let's see what happens, what and this real gets wiped out. You know and then for generations, it's enslaved or its population is being destroyed and then it sort of climbs back up to power, and then it gets powerful for a brief period of time and it gets corrupt and a product some says. Remember that super ordinate principle that you made a covenant with your not paying the attention to it anymore. You better, look the hell out and everyone ignores it and bang. So it's it's order. Corruption, chaos order, corruption, chaos that happened six times now. So here's another there's an idea behind it. The idea, because the state keeps rising, the idea that emerges out of that that the aim is the perfect state. That's a you!

hope you dream that arises out of that. Let's call it learn process over thousands of years. If we could only get the state perfect if we could only get the state perfect. Well, let's say like the state of Israel or the or the russian state, the communist state? If we could only bring utopia in at the political level, our problems would be solved. Well then what happens is there's a institution in conceptualize ation that happens with the new testament and the new testament conceptual ization is wait a minute. The state isn't salvation. The individual is salvation now you say well we're going to just throw that out are we that was a hell of a discovery man. It was and then there's more to it. It's not only is the individual salvation, it's the truthful visual that salvation, you think of how difficult a concept like that is to develop. There's anything less self evident than that. You know, because you,

well who's, going to run the dominant targets like the biggest bloody monster with the club. It's like no turns out those are unstable, those societies are unstable, they don't work, they collapse into chaos, they get they lose sight of the Super Ordinate principle, whatever that is. The stable solution is the individual that tells the truth, and it's taken us forever to figure that out and that's partly what the postmodernists are after that's their anti fellow go centrism! That's why they skitter off and hide in the radiology. There afraid to come out there afraid to be seen there afraid to speak 'cause. They have nothing to say, soul. We Give get sophisticated about this stuff we're going to throw it away without understanding it. It's unbelievable like that stories. It's it's. It's the story upon western civilization is the story upon which

western civilization is founded. That's why Nietzsche said when God was dead, that everything, collapse into chaos, he didn't say triumphantly he knew what was going happen, so did Dostoyevsky. That's why I admire those people so much I knew what was coming so what I been trying to do and I've been guided in large part by young, because he was the first see young took niches problem seriously. Nietzsche said Look we're losing our faith, we're losing our bill to relate to the super, ordered ethical principle and he actually blame Christianity. For killing itself with the with the sword of truth that it had produced said so we're going to lose this and it's big. Make no mistake about it, because our whole society is founded on those principles. We get rid of the Enemy the Spirit at the base of it we're going to lose all of it. So when the thought well we're going to have to become superhuman to manage it. That's that's where his concept, The over man comes from or the Superman which the Nazis sort of pulled off parodied, I would say

No you don't you see, you was a student of nature is not directly but very much influenced by him. You thought that nature was wrong, that we create our own values, because it it's so hard to create your own value. Let's, let's say your kind of an overweight guy and you decide to go the gym for your new Here's resolution: it's like you, don't you go price? And then you stop and it's because you can't create your own values right. It's hard! not your own slave, you just tell yourself what to do. You have a nature. And so young's idea was well that we had to go back to the mythology we had to go back to the stories we had to go back into the underground unconscious chaos and lift out what we had rotten and that's what he was trying to do with his psychology and he's done it very effectively, the very very effectively He was a revolutionary thinker but very difficult to understand, and so I've been working with Young's ideas for a long time. Trying to, I would say, make them

more rational inarticulate. Not at believe me, that's no critique. Every time I go back to young, at which I do from time to time thinking I've kind of map. Today, might learn a bunch of stuff that I didn't know so, but so what I've been trying to do is to resurrect I'm trying to resurrect the dormant logos. I suppose, if you have to put it that way, that's what I'm trying to do, and it's mostly in mostly in men and there are starving 'cause, I mostly men- I don't know that just seems to be what's happening like bow Ninety percent of my viewers on Youtube or men, but then, when I go speak all men, what the hell are they coming to hear somebody speak men! Don't do that right! Women do that and so, and then I talked to about truth and responsibility in their eyes light up, because it's like no one ever mentioned that before and I it's it just boggles my mind,

I'm asking because I feel like that's a that, is a gigantic theme today that men in searching for some sort of reason or some sort of uh. I guess without without a better word path, some sort of path mean it seems to be very The prevalent today in almost all walks of life, this man feel disenfranchised with this world? They find themselves stuck in The reason that superhero movies are so popular. You know, that's polytheism, that's the return of polytheism fall into some purposes? I mean what the hell are. Those things they're demigods, obviously one of them is Thor, for God sake, I mean how more obvious could be right. You know, and so might say: well who's, the leader of the demigods 'cause. Person. You really want to follow right, yeah. Yeah. Well, the evolutionary answer to that is well the evolution,

SIRI answer to that. As far as the Christian route went was Christ, but if there's been lots of embodiments, at first, the Mesopotamians it was martic. Martic was the Savior figure. And eyes all the way around his head, and he spoke magic words that was his fund. That's what made different from all the other gods. He was elected by other than all. The other chords to be their king and many went out time out who's. A great dragon and made the world out of her pieces. One of his names was he who makes ingenious things out of the combat with time out. Well, that's what you mean do is they go out into the unknown into chaos and they We can genius things out of it, that's what we do and so that he's the phone Mark was the founder of of mesopotamian civilization and you could think about All! Those tribes came together to make Mesopotamia Mealhada God, and so then, guards went to war and out of that war of gods the garden merch that was Marduk because one of the sources for the figure of Christ now

and over the place, like you see the verbal man then c10 out broom. Will you think wow those guys have something in common That's what you remember about them. You see you read the heroic things. They've done, 'cause they! stick in your memory because they fit the pattern and then are telling the story about the heroic things that a bunch of them did it all amalgamates together, and then you come out with your culture, your God, then there's like fifty tribes, chapter on God's will the way. What are you going to do then the guards go to war, over centuries and then they elect to God, marred a in the case of the Mesopotamians and he's the thing that goes out and fights the dragon of chaos and makes the world it's. Yeah! That's exactly what he is you do that with truth,. Truth. Introduces you to chaos, you so it's so much of an issue with males, as opposed to females in our society, females already have enough to do

you really like. Maybe maybe men have to take this on voluntarily? That's what it looks like to me because, like you can screw around till you're fifty you can still have a family, you got time and, and you can sit down and do nothing. If you want, you can do it so, but you shouldn't 'cause, it's horrible to do that, and people who do it know it like it's meaningless, well. It's funny thing about meaninglessness, there's, no such thing when people say lives. Aren't me are meaningless. That is what they mean. They mean in pain and anxious all the time. What they mean. Those are meanings, man, you don't get neutral. You know I'm just sitting around, I'm not feeling any things like no right, sorry that doesn't happen right. So when you say do nothing Your life is meaningless. If you're doing nothing, What do you mean by doing nothing well by not accepting any

sponsored by not lifting a great load by not acting out the archetype of the hero. That's what people are that's what men are. If there anything there, mythological heroes? If there anything? For some path whatever it is. Lots of paths mean so look, there's an old, medieval idea. This is the idea of the imitation of Christ. This is something young elaborates on a lot. He believe this is one of the things that he said was that you're the proper goal of a Christian, Flea speaking is to enact the the pattern of Ray's life in their own to make it their own story, and so what what do mean by that part of it is see one of the things that characterizes the mythological figure of Christ. Let's say is that he it's on the burden of mortality voluntarily. He accepts it as a precondition of existence,

and we have to do that because otherwise we get resentful like life is hard. Make no mistake about it. People's lives are tragic. You know, if you pick a random person off the street. And you ask them about their life. Man usually there's things that have happened there. You know they just big the imagination. It's no wonder. People are angry and resentful and bitter, but the way out of the to accept it to accept your mortality, that helps you transcendent. That's partly what the to fix symbol means because it was it was. It was accepted voluntarily. You have to accept your death voluntarily. That's part of the path of the hero. It's a very difficult thing to do obviously Obviously, what's your alternative yeah? Obviously you know, I think people are constantly searching for that thing that you just described the thing of meaning. Having meaning in this life and that meaning has a different definition for everybody

everybody's meaning is dummy. You're, meaning might be very different than mine, or I mean you kind of have to have your own path, and I think that's also one of the reasons. People are so confused. Is 'cause you're thrust into an early age into a very rigid system of education? and then of jobs and then of B. Career structure where are in place said in most people don't feel like that's what they're supposed to be doing and we feel very alien, made by the very structure of society that we are in bedded in, of course, of course. Well, one of those two primary masculine mythological figures and one is the wise king and the other is the devours his own son own. That's the destruct, that's the that's the patriarchy that the feminists he's talking about. Well, of course, it's always there. So society is a destructive force. It doesn't care about you as an individual. It needs you to be. Part of society needs you to adopt the norms and to squelch your peculiar individuality and to be a cog and

be socialized, and you know too him yourself in and control yourself and not be impulsive. Yet to tyrant. The thing is society isn't only a tyrant, that's the thing! It's like how a little gratitude in there. Well, you know people a hard time with this, because we like it when a thing is only one thing but He is always two things. The thing that alienates you and the thing. That's your benevolent father, always now you know it tilts. Sometimes it tilts harder towards the tyrant and that's not so good, but that's an architect. Reality, so you know what do you have to contend with in life? This is why these are archetypal realities, because everyone has to contend with them. You have to with yourself and the adverse It's inside you that seems to uh who's, your every movement, the fact that you're, not that you just can't move forward smoothly through life without being in conflict with your cell

So there's a hero in the adversary on the individual level and then on the social level. There's the wise king in the tyrant, always going to run into that. I don't care if you are a Bantu, tribesman aura You know New York lawyer, all those things you're going to run into and then in the natural world you're going to run into the destructive element of nature right, that's the gorgon! You get you let that thing. Glance at you when your one like frozen puppy, but also there's benevolent element of nature, that's feminine! That's mother, nature both of those extremes. So it's the world! That's the archetypal world! It's because it's eternal as far as human beings are concerned. Those things are always there. That's our true environment. It's not these things. We see around us there. There lasting no time these other things last forever and that's what we were adopted to wear that were adopted to the things that last for

ever so, but yet we go through this finite life searching for meaning well and it's funny to note where meaning seems to locate itself you want a meaning that justifies the suffering. It's something like that. The transcendent meaning it's like this. This is hard, but it's worth it. Ok. So what do you do pick something worth it right? That's partly what I try to get people to do with that future authoring program. To say: ok, look the place to start. You got your miserable self right now, it's like five years out. Imagine what your life would be like if you had what you would give yourself we taking care of yourself. What would life be like just come up with an idea even about that and so then people do that and then they write out a plan to attain it and then the college kids are like

percent more likely to stay in university. If they do that, especially if they're men, because men need a purpose, I think women have a purpose early, now they have two purposes. You know they're going to have a family. That's a major purpose: man like just give birth, it's that's no joke and then devoted to something for like twenty years, you got your adventure right there yeah, but a lot of find great offense and someone saying that especially a man saying that man's planing that a woman's purposes to breed right. I mean it's not a a chai. Issue- that a lot of women have I was the only purpose. I know the you didn't call yeah people have an issue with it, but it's like grow up. You know if you're a sophisticated person. As far as I'm concerned. How many important things are there in life? one of them's family, like it's as simple as that. Now you might say: well, family, isn't the end all solution. It's like yeah. Well, thanks for pointing that out, you know I dealt with plenty of power

logical families, but it's huge part of life you have 'em the father you have children, it places you in the world if any society that looked the reason, societies, worship, the virgin mother and the child because societies that don't die, and so people ok. Well, you know that relationship between mother and child isn't the only thing. Ok, fine, it's still a sacred thing. And you miss it. You miss it. If you're female, you miss that at your peril. Now doesn't mean there aren't women who shouldn't miss it because they have another purpose that transcends that, but that's rare, it's very, very rare, and I would caution? Any women listening if they're young, not to be deluded, into the idea that they're Karere is, will be up such high quality that self evidently Trump's having a family, your We have to have a hell of a career before that's the case. Soul die I think that's unique to the individual, though, that some people just

will be more satisfied and I mean, depending on other doing artistically or create yeah whatever it is, you can make rules for the exceptional Bryant. You know they do they're going do those are open. Maybe those are open people. They have genius level iq like they're, spectacular in some manner and so there's a reason they're going to step outside the norm. They're shape shifters no problem, there's always Maybe people like that and we need them how they know when they're that well telling the truth. It's a good start, because then you don't fool self. About who you are. You know that's another, One of the things I tried to think through is why you should tell the truth. So it's not self I didn't manage smart kid, the smarter, the kid the earlier they learn to lie lying is very powerful because manipulate the world with your language and then you can get what you want lots of times or escape from things that you don't want. So why not lie all the time? Well, I think the isn't, there's a bunch of reasons, but one of them is. Is that you can't trust yourself if you lie and there

movie times in your life, where you have no one to turn too, except you, and so, if you have stuff so full of lies, then you're going to be in a crisis one day, you're going to have to make a decision and you're going to decide wrong and you be in real trouble. 'cause, you won't have the thirty necessary to make the proper judgment, because you few your imagination in your perception with with rubbish, so really think that three seat is this. In the old testament that fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and I can't understand what that means, because one of the say we do with the future authoring program. We offer people a little Heaven. It's like, ok, construct your ideal aim at it. Come up with a plan you get to modify the no problem you're going, do a bad job of it. No problem just do it! Okay! So then, now You've got a goal, and now your approach systems, technically speaking, the positive emotion, systems that motivate you are. You are engaged because they're engaged in relationship to a goal and the more transcendent

all the more they engaged, but that's not good enough. It's great to run to something you like, but it's even better to run away from something that terrifies you. So then we asked people okay. So here think about this real carefully, take all your faults and your inadequacies and your your hatred for life all of that and then imagine that gets the upper hand and then think about where you could be in three to five years and everyone knows say some people they'd be a street person. Some people know they've been alcoholic, some people know they be a prostitute or a drug addict like nobody's got their own little hell. They could descend into with fair degree of rapidity in a fair bit of enjoyment people know that, and so I say well delineate that out too so you know where you're headed when you fall off the path, and so then you running away and running towards like yes, let's Heaven inhale and you need it and they're real. There is real as anything that you can.

Pens on what you mean by real, I suppose, but. There is real as you make them, how about that and people can make, hell. Pretty real people do seem to construct these pitfalls for themselves. I mean selves, the TAJ is one of the most common things that you find in people that are struggling. I mean you would think that some who is struggling. The last thing they want to do is help them so most towards their own demise. But it's super calm, yeah! Well, I thought about that too, and so you can tell me what you think about this If you talk to people, they say what I want to have a meaningful life generally people want that. But then you think well what why aren't you? and then you think well, what does it mean to have a meaningful life exactly and then you think? Well, maybe it means that you have to take on responsibility: 'cause you're, Your sacrifices have to be worth something right. It has to have some cash

have some meat. What you're aiming at it has to be something that can elevate your wormlike self to the level of taller ability. No, you can say well, yeah. I've got all these flaws, but look at what I'm trying to do. That's the real ground of self respect. Well, hi mister, I'm off the truck with the quest ground of self respect. I can't remember what you asked me so we'll have to go to for topic. What how did we get? we were you asked about. The evolutionary your of now in group that was along time ago. I know it's a rabbit hole that just doesn't disappear, but where were we? just now

we're just now. No sorry fact about something else is happening right now give you, but you know what is it call me just got fired by Trump a little bit and twitter is of ablaze about I'm sure is a little off topic, but you wanna. You want to talk about a we were talking about. Man talking about men about men and what motivates them? Yes. And so then we were. I was talking about the fact that you know when I'm publicly now most of my audience as men and that their eyes light up when they're yeah. So we were, we were talking about the necessity of taking on the burden of responsibility right, because people not only are we should we. They are acting out the archetype of the hero, but we should carrying a weight while we're doing it because we're we're like pack animals. Happy without a wait, and I think it's I do think it's something like have

justify your miserable existence, do you think this is my theory about that um. I believe that there certain human reward systems that we have ingrained in us and that have allowed us to survive this long and that these reward systems a lot of them in overcoming struggle because struggle, was inexorable. Is a massive part of existence and without struggle, your body is almost like. Well, how come we're not hum not overcoming yeah something yeah right, so it's almost like a trick like you have to trick your body and you trick your brain and trick your humanity, your very existence, into having some sort of a purpose. In order to be at the baseline yeah. Well, I'm more off! Well, yes, it does make sense, but I don't I don't think I don't think it's a trick here is why I think that because I think there is something irreducible about suffering. I think it it it it. It speaks, self as a reality, Anon Quest double reality,

Nobody says to a to it's in severe pain, that it isn't going to matter in a million years right. The pain, trumps, everything So then it seems to me that attempts to alleviate suffering trump everything. So if you, responsibility. It's like there. You got one try, your way, out of that, doesn't matter fine you're suffering doesn't matter, then that's for sure None of the suffering matters you're going to go down that road are you you know, you know what you know, what the someone who says that no suffering matter matters looks like it's not pleasant. So there is there's no neutral position. With regards to that, so you see the world is full of unrequited suffering. Let's say in who knows how much of it is unnecessary? Certainly the stuff you create seems to be unnecessary, especially if you create it purposefully and people are doing that all the time. So if you need a burden, it's like how about how

dampening down the unnecessary suffering a little bit about trying hard to do that for the rest of your life, see if that'll do it, God only knows how far you get get along ways? Man, when when people talk about meaning, though, when When you talk about suffering- and this idea like there's what is what is going on in the mind that desires this difficult pursuit like what it, what is going like, why is that a part of being a person like? Why is it a part of your ultimate happiness to have these obstacles to overcome, these character, developing moments, character, building episodes in order for you to manage life and to get through life with the most amount of happiness. There's a story about this think it's a frog in the scorpion yeah. You know the story well the front, please, well, the frog scorpion know convinces the frog to give the right.

Across the river in the frog says: well, you're a scorpion. It's like you know, I'm not going to do that because you're going to nail me with your tail and the scorpion says no. No, if I do that when we're in the will both drown. So why would I do that? So the frog agrees to ferry the scorpion across and they get halfway out in scorpion, stings him and the frog says turns to him is dying, breath and says. Why do you do that in the scorpion said? Well, it's in my nature and that's the answer to your question. Is that it's in our nature, that's what an archetype is where the hero. Archetype is the story of men or, but do you think that that nature is because that is how we survived. How, over the millions of years we evolved from lower promenades to being a human being we needed to have the mechanisms in in our very existence to overcome struggle, then all the sudden you maybe we chose it. You know you think. Well I mean I think it this part of the evolutionary process, but look the thing about now: sexual selection,

or the mechanisms that we talked about say where, by the dominance hierarchies, the selection mechanism for the transfer of genetic material. There's a choice in that like if a group of guys gets get together and a leader emerges someone everyone respects it's like in election. Everyone voted on it. We chose that particular type of person. Well, who is that? Let's see, who type human beings have chosen that and then the women think oh look heroic type. It's like they grab him before. Someone else gets him, and so That's been going on forever, so did we choose it well the action of our choice across millennia selected it. These are things evolutionary psychologists, biologists, don't think about, don't think about. All that consciousness played in determining who survived and how and why it's been on for a long time. Well, they serve, know about sexual selection by female choice. No, but the full implications of that haven't been thought through, like I've just really started to

grapple with the idea that the male hierarchy is a sexual selection device? It's like men are voting on well, who, which of us deserves to go sleep with a woman? It's like! Well, you don't you're kind of a weaselly little snake, so you know no, not you. It's like, oh Jojo, looks like quite the guy. Let's put him at the top of the hierarchy, that's what men have been. With each other forever is more to it than that- there's a lot because the question is, who is it that they're electing but it really just about sexual selection, that's Joe Freud thought? So, like it's half about that, let's say Well, you know the survival of the individual in the survival of the species, so those are the two things, but in the butt and with that sexual selection, even with that, he say if person does rise to the top of the social hierarchy. In that small done

number of two and fifty people, it's person- is that enough. Does that person still need purpose? Do they still need something in or some difficult struggle for them to feel for most for most of human history? That just wasn't a problem there, we had struggled constantly ran. Yes, absolutely any problem today that the problem, our lack of problems, sure it's something Kierkegaard pointed out like one hundred and fifty like said, they'll come a time when everything has been done so well for everyone that the only lack the only felt lock will be for lack itself are you concerned because of that, and because you are very acutely aware of this issue, you concern with this potential. Sure that we have in front of us with artificial intelligence and virtual reality in this need to I live in a world, that's not real! Like I mean how many kids today listening to this exist for a massive amount of their day. Watching video games playing video games, yeah playing the people hero online yeah. I had a friend, and this is sick,

six story. I'll, never forget this. The statement that he said to me he was one of the managers of the comedy store who's, a very nice, I would use a addicted to video games, which I have been an impact in the past. I was addicted to video games for a couple years. I blame all time. I love them. They were so much fun, but this guy, he had it bad. I was. I had a career while is doing it. I managed to figure it out that this was a massive waste of my time and get through he didn't and when one day he was like, I mean pale like he hadn't been outside days, hanging out in the back of the comedy store were talking and he was addicted to two. I think it was Everquest which is crazy role playing game that you just do when you just people play at eighteen hours a day, and he said something I'll never forget. He said I'm so successful in the Yo Game, world and so unsuccessful in the real world. I

there's like sitting there like shaking his head and I was like wow in the little world. He was like very unfulfilled. Couldn't find a girlfriend was struggling financially. In the video game world he was like some warlock is out there slaying, dragons and an in any found grey, reward in, that video game world. I very concerned we will literally almost be like in the matrix plugged into some artificial electronic thing, which I, I think this video games that people are playing all day, long, there're precursor, to that dog, along. If you have great self control, they're, very enjoyable, they're, fun, they're, great social time with you and your friends get together. You play we have a great as long as you're, actually being productive and active in everyday life. I don't really think there are problem my concern is that they are a precursor and that we are the beginning steps to this, official world that will be embedded in in the very near future? Well, you know

we decided already that we're in a period of chaos. Yeah- and you know part of the reason, I'm loath to make any predictions. As I mean that's one of the reasons, it's like how many things be going sideways. At the same time, right lots of things are going sideways. I have no what's going to happen? I mean, Thomas cars? Seventy thank that's the biggest employment, category, driver yeah. So what then you know, but why worry about but there's twenty other things that are happening there, just as revolutionary right. So what's going to happen, who knows I have no idea, I think, Maybe I know how to steer the boat. You know. That's all. He tried to tell the truth and maybe you'll get through it. And acted out as well, because what else do you have is not another fan

stick sign of chaos and I meet. I say: fantastic, not a positive way, but that Donald Trump is our president. Now the president has who has had the biggest problem with the truth that we've ever experienced. We've never experienced a president like this, where we know that he has a problem with the truth. And it's it's it's open. It's! It's still hasn't seen the funnies us. He has an unstructured problem with the truth. He was first as the candidate to someone who had a structured approach to untruth right right so like like pick your type of lie, pick the Idia Liddy Aladji power aiming lie or a new kind of or or yeah more personal. I say: if you're going to be cynical, about it? Well, I'm not. I kind of lied to the didn't fit the standard structure that work accustomed to and felt very disenchanted with.

Yeah or maybe a nakedly self serving lie. It's like. Oh thank God. That's such a relief after the totalitarian ideology lies, oh god, when he said that way. So fuckedup, that's! Obviously it though yeah well, that's definitely part of it, and I mean lots of people did. I know people the voting booth, their hand was hovering over Hillary. You know when it was shaking and they thought to help with it trump. And so and it's a sentiment that I can appreciate. So, And so here we are, but that's that's only the tiny. That's only the tail end of the dragon I mean yeah, there's Who knows who can look ahead? This is ask it's time, we're in

it's associated with Kurzweil's prognostications. You know I mean he talked about the consequences of an ever accelerating technological transformation, and you know I mean look just in the last fifty years we've had the birth control, the hydrogen bomb in the transit. Thrown out us. It's like him. Those are some pretty wild tornadoes, yeah and and and that's just scratching the surface yeah. So the last one hundred I mean, if you just go back to the beginning of the twentieth century- today I mean it's fucking, it's unbelievable yeah! Well, you know in eighteen ninety five, the average person in the west lived on a dollar a day in today's dollars. In one thousand eight hundred and ninety five. Yes, really in today's dollars, yeah wow yeah wow, no kidding no kidding well, the other, with people when they find out how little the rest of the world lives on they find out that they top

one percent of the world makes about thirty four thousand dollars, USS yeah. Well, it depends on. I know if you're you know, for many people, who is rich is someone who has more money than them right, which is one of the things I really find funny about the like. The radical left protests on the campus is like down with the one percent: it's like hey sunshine, you're part of the percent you're just you're, actually a baby, one tenth of one percent or or maybe one one hundredth of one percent or you're just angry, because you're not there yet, but you will be when you're forty, you know it so does everybody else, and now, instead of regarding self properly. As a fledgling member of the elite, you want to have it both ways you the fledgling member of the elite and champion of the underground you're privileged, so how narcissistic can you get I have all the benefits of having all the benefits and you want to have all the benefits of having none of the benefits, because just all benefits isn't enough for you. One thing

It's a reoccurring, subject that I find incredibly fascinating and it keeps coming up and it's been even more so lately because of artificial intelligence, an automated vehicles and all these different things that are happening is there to be in a rotation of jobs and a subject keeps the and that's universal basic income. The idea of giving people giving everyone a certain amount of money twelve thousand or eighteen thousand dollars. What are your thoughts on that? I don't know what to think about that. You know it. Certainly. It would require a revolution in the way people considered their lives yeah and then maybe that rebel like what would what what do people do with leisure time? What should you do with it leisure time, it's like what is our time exactly is. It is it sitting in a closet like in like a discord, discarded Android, I mean that's often how people when they retire right, but would they have

to retire or would they have their needs taken care of as far as food and shelter and then be able to pursue something that they actually enjoyed and our interest? Well, that has the job that they were stuck in, doesn't exist and well that's the question and I would say I would say at the moment the data great, you know what happens to a lot of men who are unemployed now, they've, let's say they've they've had that from step on them involuntarily, but most people who we would be talking. But would be in that situation. Is that you know they they get depressed. They sit on the couch. They develop chronic pain problems, they start taking It will be it's for the pain problems and then soon they're hooked, like it's not a pretty. I mean, I know that not everyone isn't doing that. Lots of people are doing that right, so that's? Unemployment is an in kind of a different thing because I know, but my thought that unemployment, if if you've, got something like universal basic income and I'm worked we're talking about a complete revolution in the way society is structured right because, if auto

nation does come along and artificial intelligence does come along and it really is a situation where a lot the things that people do to occupy their time in order to feed themselves and shelter themselves. They don't exist anymore. It's not it's unnecessary, so you're not talking about unemployment like Bob you're, not a good enough lawyer. You've been fired and now you, like God, I'm a failure. I'm depressed, I am unemployed, we're not talking about that. We're talking about literally society, as we know it having a complete reset yep yeah. Well, I don't. I have no idea what to say about that. I mean I don't either! That's why I asked you well well, but look I mean there are people, here's the optimistic end I'll speak, determinist, I'm not a determinist, but I'm going to speak that way, anyways. So there are lots of people who are creative, are high in trade. Openness from the big five perspective, they're going to go, do creative things, but there are lots of people who aren't creative,

I don't know what they're going to do, because it isn't going to be creative things. What do you think people? What why are people in creative and non creative like? Are there people that are just not at the It's never been nurtured in them, they have the potential to be creative or you don't think so. No, no, that pictures pretty clear on that. I mean that traits are highly heritable, their modifiable if you're really non creative, it's like it ain't going anywhere for you and the reason for that. Creativity isn't like it's. Not all sweetness and light man I mean the reason there are non creative people is, creative people often died Throat doing like screw thanks for your truck detention from people, they shouldn't detract attention from like the authorities. You know what creative the revolutionary? Well tyrants. Don't really like revolutionaries there's It's a reason not to be creative, now, like creative people, it's hard to monetize your creativity, artists have a hell but I'm surviving right and it and so create

pretty as such is a it's a double edged blessing for. Sure, and part of the reason that lots of people aren't creative is 'cause. It's a lot, let's think about it from an evolutionary perspective this is going to have a lot easier, not to be decked out in bright colors when the predators come along right you stay camouflaged against the herd like a zebra, stand out. I tell you a little story about that, so I think I got this from Robert Sapolsky and, if I didn't, I apologize so, let's say you're a biologist to go to study some zebras. You think people think well. Those zebras are camouflage 'cause. They have black and white stripes. Well No, that's not camouflage lions camouflaged, it's golden. It looks like the grass, zebra like fifteen miles away, it's black and white? Ok, so. Looking at some zebras and you think where I need to look at one zebra to figure out what it's doing, 'cause, I'm trying to understand zebras. So you look at it take some notes and look up- and you think, oh god, which zebra was that, because the camera It is against the herd, just the idea that the camouflage

is against the herd. That's such a useful idea to have in your mind that camouflages against the herd, so he goes up to the zebra in your jeep, and you've got uh Stick with a rag on it. You you put a nice dob of red paint on that zebras Haunch or you clip it's here like with the cattle clip, and the first thing you know you get the hell out of there in the lions, kill it 'cause. They can identify The thing that stands out and organ I swear, hunt around it and so that's why there aren't creative people. I think that is impulse can I think it was an ear clip. I remember this discussion yeah, that. It's also that the edge detection and, like a type, a of counter pattern, camouflage pattern called asap an a Santana flies, doesn't look like trees. You know when people think of up and pull up a set pattern. First light l, I t e

com. Yes, it was Terry Cab, camouflage pattern all season, all terrain, not canadian military. I looked out and you just told graduation. Yes, it's one of four hundred one. I don't believe in borders, for animals there, you could see a and the reason is animals can't they only. In black and white, like a predator prey animals like deer and its edge detection that they're looking for and these things the hard lines of the black in the Brown and the lighter colors it throws off the and that's that's fusion, that's a different color. That's a different type of kamma, a sad is what we're talking about, which is right above it that leg read it, but not a seal. Yet right there Yes, that's it and I'm also wrong. Canadians didn't invent this. The was stuff the military. Well, the military, that's a bunch of stuff! I'm sure I'll, give you guys, I'm a fan of Canada, man. I love it. I really do love Canada. I think people up there just so much nicer, it's uh!

evo of struggle to try to figure out. Why about many many times, but I think people in jail. In Canada are, I would say, there's twenty percent less Duche Bags in Canada, I mean it's assholes everywhere you go, but I Canada, for whatever reason, people extremely polite. Yes, yes, I would say: well, I don't know, I don't see, I'm not sure, I'm not convinced of it, because I often think the same thing when I come down to the US that people are more polite. Well, the term they are that their level of cuffs customer service, for example, but I think the this is one of the differences between Canada and the US, is like all of Canada in some senses like the midwest of the United. States right, you know, so we don't have this. We don't have this extreme culture that characterizes the US with the like. The great lows in the great highs were all were like Ella music. You know compared to a full symphony and there's gonna be some really tragic parts of a symphony. So you know if If you want peace order and good government, that's our constitutional,

Then you know Canada is your place, but it's a middle class middle of the road society, and that has some benefits. You know it's nice and welcoming and and not too your mental and kind of car. Secure and those are good things. It's I don't think it's a place that is great at dealing with excellence, but you know do you feel like excellence is suppressed because people don't like when One stands out too much are yeah, I think that's true everywhere, but I think it's more true of Canada than it is of the US think it's liberated a lot in the US, I mean, I think, there's It's always going to be some resistance, especially from people that don't feel like people always measure themselves against someone. If there's someone is out, there is just you know some genius, in some form or another, there's always going to be with people that measure themselves against that person and find themselves coming up short. Yes, they try to attack that individual.

Someone who has just catastrophic success and move away yeah. Well, I don't know that's another reason for the and for people to be enemies of clear thought as well, because clear thought is a good pathway to success. Yes, and so, if you can go after people who thing clearly it's another way of keeping the dominant turkey, nice and flat for your for your delicate. And let's say so: that's the enemy of competence element that I see as part of the Social Justice Warrior movement right right in extreme lack of financial success and yeah and even creative success in even the insistence that hierarchies are always based on power, it's like near give neurosurgeons is not based on power or e ideas. Obviously you know, hierarchies are based to some degree on power. We don't have to be juvenile about it, but you know the best neurosurgeons actually know how to do surgery. That's not just a power thing right farmers, hey they grow food, so there's no,

there's no appreciation for actual the real world. Well, there's no real world in Post modernism anyway, so that doesn't matter but there's no pre shizhen for competence or the fact that there is individual difference incompetence, even though there always talking about diversity and there's a downplaying of competition and the importance of compost. Definitely, oh! Yes! Yes! Well, that, yes and that's something, that's particularly, I think harder on men, because compete yeah and they compete partly because women like winners, I mean that's part of the reason. So in your shame for that in this post, modernism. View of the world. Oh yeah. Well, you know the schools increasingly or non competitive places. It's like for a guy. That means well, let's tune out and go watch video games because, like if I can't win at this, why should I play well to cooperate? It's like well, you know fair enough man, but I'd actually like to try to win at some yeah. Well, how evil can you get? Well, it's toxic masculinity, Jordan that one drives me fucking

crazy, like what does that mean toxic masculinity, toxic hasn't there's nothing to do in masculine or feminine. If something is toxic, toxic, there's, no toxic masculinity, if someone's evil they do something horrible of their Genghis Khan or Adolf Hitler. It's not toxic, masculinity, that's an evil person has nothing to do with the masculine or feminine yeah. Well, you know it depends. Your political agenda is, I mean men are more likely to be the type of person that does something awful in terms of dominating or war or violence, it's it's most in our nature in some way, because of all the things that we discussed before were more were more likely to do something. That's really evidente, there's plenty bullying that goes on behind the scenes among women. Absolutely no. They can't manage

test itself in naked physical aggression, and I actually think that's hard on women. In some ways I mean my my daughter, for example, is always mad at my son because, like not chronically, but you know, he'd have a dispute with one of his friends and maybe get physical, and then that be the end of it may be friends again. You know there where there's a way of bringing it to a conclusion, and without that, then things can smolder on forever. That's really rough, you know yeah, it's read some. Sometimes the simplest solution is a fight. Often, and it you know, I'm not University balance. I know what you're saying I know, but I'm embarrassed that I would even think that I have to you know, put some quote marks around developing person to your talk about young people? It is a it or it is an issue. The simmering and stewing of of of disputes where they never come to it yeah, and they never get resolved. Yeah yeah, it's a terrible thing to terrible thing. It's that's part

Hell for sure to have things that are just grinding away at you all the time you know it's not it's. Definitely not it's. A good place to be in good motivations, don't come out of it. That's for sure you've made some some statements and we've had some you had some conversa. Since about. Your role in academia and that you might not necessarily be unstructured, structured academia forever? That did this might be an issue like that. This is to a yeah, We feel that way now. Well, the university. I think what happened was the university reacted towards me, because a bunch of people got irritated an organized in you know when they're irritated way and said that I was a bad person and something should be done about me and there was for them, so the university thought they needed to react to that pressure. That's a terrible way of interpreting it but reasonable, but then a bunch of

who wrote the university and said, wait a second. I agree with what that guys doing, You should leave him alone and not only people from the general populace, but soon app I posted the original videos, like the press, was kind of a and about me for awhile in in the first. Two weeks or three weeks after I released those videos and there were the protests, but then they started to look into what I was doing and they thought oh turns out that you know. Freedom of speech actually happens to be quite important to journalists too, and they came out like really radical. All in support of me some of the major journalists in Canada and and and a whole the whole post media system, which was about a hundred and fifty or two hundred newspapers, and so the university had a reason to back off, and maybe they were happy to back off. I mean the dean I was negotiating. Was you know he wasn't a bad guy. He was

older guy, I think, he's in his 70s is responding to pressure yeah and he didn't want a bunch of trouble and you know- and he wanted the problem to go away right now and that's what you do want. For problems to do but anyways all this public support? I got gave the university a reason to leave me the hell alone, so they decided to do that and partly I suppose I was is reasonable during the negotiations, because I'm a reasonable person, and so in when they met me, they realized that I wasn't the particular kind of monster that I being accused of being right, and The universities left me off and then so I was. I had like a health crisis in December that more or less rectified itself by the meaning of January, but I wasn't sure that plus what it happened to me because of these It was in all the crazy response to them I wasn't sure I was in a sufficiently together position.

Go back lecturing in January. I didn't even know for awhile until December. If I was going to be, let's say aloud. Continue to lecture? So it's very uncertain, but I decided that it was here to get back on the horse, so to speak, and so I started lecturing in it and the students were very welcoming. So thank God for that. What is it like now, when you're in school? Is it complete different experience in before your note Eddie, exploded. Well, there's lots of things that are different about it. I mean this lots of students. There are lots of who come to my classes just to sit in the classes. There's? Who, stopping me all the time in the hallways and wanting to introduce themselves- and that happens a lot in public in in in in the strangest situation, so I'm rather on used to that the feeling I at the university well, I haven't processed any of that. Yet I mean I would say, I'm about seven months behind in my understanding of my own life. You know because,

things happened. So many things happened from September. To now that I haven't had time to think about any of them. You know it's just and it's been a continual, an absolute continual bomb treadmill of trying to keep up with the request for speaking in the email and and I'm supposed to be making these Youtube videos, because I have people who are supporting me for doing that. So I'm trying to keep that up and then I'm trying to go speak. Like when people invite me, but not all the time, because of course that's a lot of travel and so on. Trying to re calibrate my life, I'm trying to figure out. Ok, I got ten million views on Youtube. What am I supposed to do with that? of information. I've got two hundred and fifty thousand like subscribers. So what is what is that I mean what does that mean for what I should be doing, maybe I should be doing nothing but making Youtube videos for them. I don't know so try again figure out. It's unbelievable,

So it's like it's it's unparalleled just I mean think about it. From in terms of, is there any other academic that is ever done anything remotely like that where you have two hundred and fifty three and subscribers on Youtube and of relatively short amount of time, and then millions and millions of views on your videos. I know I don't know why I mean it well and it's it's a it's ill defined territory. Right, because who knows what you two bis right, I mean you know you your your presence, I don't know what you make of your presence. I mean you told me. I think that you're getting something like seventy million downloads a month, it's more like a hundred and twenty now, okay, so getting a billion downloads a year, something like that more than that. So what right yeah. So what the hell. So I could ask you: what do you make of that like? What are you there? Are you the? Are you the most powerful interviewer on the planet, or are you the most powerful interview that the planet has ever seen because it well

the numbers would suggest so nobody's had. Who has a billion of anything? No one you know it's never happened. So what the hell! So what are you doing and why is it working and where are all these people in God? what I do is just keep doing it. That's all I do. I just do what I do and I don't think too much about it. I enjoy it. I try Talk to people like yourself that I really enjoy talking to or the guy before you was a bow hunter which I enjoyed talking to him. Two very different, very, very different conversation tomorrow: I'm talking about a guy who's, a debunker or talking to a guy who's uh. He runs a site called Metabunk, we're going to talk about people that believe the earth this flat literally were going to spend about two hours debunking the flat earth? theory that is all over the internet, and you realize yes, I've seen it. There is a rabid

hi intellectual vibe, that's going on today- and this is, flag of theory? No wonder you know it's no wonder because the many of the prom and intellectual types have become prisoners of their own imagination. You know this is partly what breeds that terror of intellectualism. There's there's something there's something about it. That's we don't want to get to far away from our bodies. We don't know. Get too far away from our souls. That's another way of thinking about it, and you know there is this idea that, as I said before, that the Catholics always worn what is that the rational mind falls in love with its own productions or even more that it tries to elevate its productions to the status of God. Mmhm, and that's I mean that's really what what Milton was warning about, at least in some sense, in his in his book paradise law Last. You know these utopias are human creations and then people fall prey to them. It's like

idol worship really is very much like idol, worship and No wonder people get skeptical of of the intellectuals, because, they're producing these utopias that are fake, that they inhabit there almost like the abstract equivalent of video games so I think you're right about that, but I also think there's something else going on. I think People are aware of this chaos that we described earlier and they're terrified and they're clean to nonsense because of that terror and they're there, I am embedding themselves in these fruitless pursuits chasing their own tail. Hey I'm on board with that man not chasing it. So your own tail, that's a symbol of chaos. Yeah this is the dragon that eats its own tail. So that came, continuously to mind when you thought about that. It's it's a downward spiral. Man, yeah yeah, The thing is: is that as you as you retreat from the chaos into your own little prison. You get weaker

weaker in the prison, gets smaller and smaller in the chaos gets bigger and bigger. It's really an ugly pathway and you get more and more bitter and resentful yeah, I'm much more afraid of having your prison walls breached to downward spiral. Much less interested in pursuing the truth or any sort of objective reasoning and more interested in come nation by us to the extreme right. That's exactly what happened. I detailed out a process in my book maps of meaning exactly that. It's this feedback loop pay because you, the the the weaker you are, the thicker. The walls have to be, but the thick make the walls, the less challenge you face in the

sure you get so then the walls have to get thicker and then you get weaker and the walls have to get thicker and it's not a pretty. It's not a pretty picture man so hum yeah. That's what I think too yeah, because and on that note we just had three hours. We just did it. This is my favorite podcast of all time. Oh, I just want to you. Well thank thank you was awesome, I could I say it was my favorite podcast of all time I have a much smaller domain of podcast in Paris since died. We did have. This number nine hundred and what is it? Nine. Fifty eight, I think you touched on some things. That made me think in of very unique way today. So thank you much of that analysis a couple of times, so thank you very much both for both patients. I mean you provided a tremendous boost to my present. So what here comes of that is to be blamed

partly on you alrighty alright, You bet really pretty good. Thank you, Jordan. Peterson, ladies and gentlemen, see you tomorrow I gave up on trying to stops saying without any further ado. It just comes natural folks. It is not what life's all about nature sort of fuck. My talking thanks a caveman coffee go to Caveman coffee, c dot, com use the code word Rogan and save ten percent are awesome. Coffee, you to me undies my all time, mother, favorite, underwear, go to meundies dot com, Slash Rogan and save yourself, some mother fucking money You can save twenty percent off your first pair, just go to meundies dot com forward, Slash Rogan, thank you to cw hemp?

go to Charlotte's web, hampers name of the company, but go to CW, hemp, dot com and save ten percent off every day, plus or everyday advanced with the promo code. Joe RD, Seventeen thank you to Legalzoom, take care of legal issues, legalzoom dot com and get some savings by using the code word Rogan at checkout. Folks, that's it for today you so much for tuna to the podcast appreciate the out of people as always. Just I say, a million times to the point where it almost doesn't sound sincere, but I am a very very appreciative person and I have extreme gratitude people enjoy the show I love doing it. I love the chance that I To have these conversations with people like Jordan, Peterson and my

and campaigns and all the other people. I love it, I'm very happy and I'm glad you guys enjoy it. So thank you and will see you soon. Bye.