« The Joe Rogan Experience

#961 - Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson & Michael Shermer

2017-05-16 | 🔗
Graham Hancock is an English author and journalist, well known for books such as "Fingerprints Of The Gods" & his latest book "Magicians of the Gods". Randall Carlson is a master builder and architectural designer, teacher, geometrician, geomythologist, geological explorer and renegade scholar. Michael Shermer is a science writer, historian of science, founder of The Skeptics Society, and Editor in Chief of its magazine Skeptic.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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one of the best gyms in the world it's amazing state of the art facility with incredible instruction the strength dish is all under the tutelage of the great john wolf who's one of the most knowledge guys i've ever talked to when it comes to fitness and then we also have tenth planet jiu jitsu there and bang anbang moitie so go to onnit dot com check out everything we have and use the code word rogan to save ten percent off and also implements alright who what a podcast i got a few people today this podcast is well there's many people on this podcast first of all graham hancock and randall carlson two very dear friends who i have been on the podcast many times before and some of my all time favorite podcasts but last time we did one michael shurmur who is a professional skeptic was wait for it skeptical you wanted to come on and talk to these guys and debate these subjects and why they're not mainstream
it got a little heated at times but it also got very in depth and i think i think it's one of my favorite podcast it was fascinating we called in some experts and it was good time so i hope you enjoy it as much as i did so give it up for michael shermer randall carlson and graham hancock the joe rogan experience this is a very unusual guess we're going to have here in a very unusual discussion i have to my left michael shermer very famous skeptic uh he's been on the podcast before of course randall carlson amazing gentleman who knows far too much about terrifying like asteroids and graham hancock author also fantastic human being many times been on this gas as well and this all came out of a pod
ask that randall anne graham and i did recently an michael shermer commented on it and it was all essentia lee on the um the hypothesis that the great extinction that happened with the north american land animals that happen somewhere around the end of the ice age and the end of the ice age the abrupt end of the ice age being caused please correct me if i funny this up being caused by a comet impact michael shermer had some questions about that and we said this would be an amazing podcast to get everybody weather in a room and go over this since then it's been some interesting stuff that's happened well i thought this is really fascinating that four has a mainstream article in forbes did a comet wipeout ice age megafauna and this is actually from just a couple of weeks ago and then there was also this interpretation that's fairly recent as well about one of the stone tablets one
the stone carvings rather on go beckley tempe and gram you would probably the best to describe that yeah that was published in terranean may the terrain in archaeology anarchy archaeometry the tree review journal by a couple of scientists from the university of ed and they are proposing a an interpretation of to go back to the tempe imagery this call love injury on those t shea pillars basically one pen i put a forty three an enclosure and their deduction what they take from their interpretation of course many will disagree with them their interpretation that those said those images are speaking of the comet impact there speaking of a comet that hit the earth roughly twelve thousand nine hundred years for our time and randall this is been something the you been obsessed with for many many years now on you we've documented and detailed it in many and
in many conversations that we've had on the podcast oh yes i i can't say that i'm that familiar with that article i haven't had a chance to get into it but this idea that the comet impact is the what what is is the end of the ice age well it's so complex but now what we do is we throw some type of an impact into the mix and it seems to fill gaps that have pulled this right up to you seems to fill gaps that were at this point still unexplained you know there's varying theories between some extent climate change in some extent of human predation that caused the extinction and i've always felt like you can't blame it on one or the other i think humans probably had a role but only in the very final stages of the extinction event and one of the
one of the scenarios would certainly suggest that there were extreme climate changes between the what's called the bowling alley rod which was the rather nigel warming at the very end of the pleistocene which was then followed by the younger drias which was the return to full glacial cold and in the to the younger dryas which is dated about eleven thousand six hundred which is considered now to be the the boundary of the holocene post younger dryas pre boreal it's called would be the beginning of the holocene and it seems that most of the extinctions did occur between roughly the thirteen thousand eleven thousand six hundred years ago although the dating has a widespread on it so you can't pinpoint it down to a specific event but i've always felt like that there had to be something we need to look at that triggered the extreme the changes that we do see at the end of the ice age and into my opinion you can't attribute
it's only two milankovitch theories which is basically the changing solar terrestrial geometrize because there are too slow and what we see the end of the ice age were very rapid climate changes and so one of the things that i think has been missing has been to trigger wallace brecher pointed out early years ago that possibly a major flood from the drain lake agassi caused an interruption of the thermohaline circulation which is the basically the circulation of that the n atlantic ocean and that this might have been what triggered the young dry and then also contributed to the mass extinction events but now i think the dating of the draining of lake agassiz is too late for that it was probably a ladder event within the overall melting phenomena that occurred between roughly fourteen thousand six hundred and and about eleven thousand
years ago somewhere in there we have to fit that mass extinction event in and i definitely have thought that climate change was the dominant factor in that but then what triggered the change that always seemed to me to be something that was not ever really explained the comet impact theory is very controversial but the this has been steadily mounting now for a decade including physical evidence right like the core samples that show nuclear glass scattered out in asia and europe that are roughly the same time period when they do the core samples yes it's most of its dating to twelve thousand eight hundred to thirteen thousand years ago these are called impact procs these private nana diamonds melt melt glass microsphere yul's these kind of these
things are associated with it but not necessarily always caused by impacts of this is being part of the reason for the controversy but is the abundance of all of these at a particular level which leads a large group of scientists to feel that we have had a comet impacting into you know the full assemblage of things that is difficult to explain by processes without invoking some type of our a cosmic event and it also corresponds with what you believe is a period were earth travels through a series of comments well this gets this to the to the ideas of the the what would be called the british neo catastrophism victor clear ruben william napier and a number of others that have theorized that from time
at a time earth encounters the debris from a large disintegrating comet and there's an interesting william napier addresses this interesting article i can pull up here pretty soon that possibly around thirteen thousand years ago earth may have encountered some of the debris from a disintegrating comet which ultimately goes back fred whipple who is one of the the godfathers of of cometary science just come in on that for a second i'm i mean specifically build build a po victor clue by our our identifying the remnants of this comet with the torrid meteors dream which is familiar i think to everybody we pass through it twice a year we see meteorites particularly env october early november that deborah history is still there it still contains according to their argument bits of the comet there are large objects in it like committing and kirin nicky or go to and so on four five kilometres in senator and the suggestion is that the media streamers got lots of small bits of dust but it's got some larger stuff
to an some of that stuff fell out of the media stream twelve thousand eight hundred years ago and impacted primarily the north american ice cream now my goal when you listen to the podcast you had some questions you are professional skeptics of course are set up the goal what what are your thoughts about all that so yeah let me pull back in the if you give a bigger picture after the podcast i went and got the book magicians of the gods and actually i listen to it on audio so it's i don't know like sixteen eighteen hours of of graham reading with his is wonderful british accent which is you know for americans that elevates the quality of the argument by an order of magnitude yeah they sell things in infomercials over here and graham you're good writer compare einstein you you're a great skeptic and and you know and so i think you know the number
points about in general the idea of alternative archaeology which is really what we're talking about here i i i prefer that to suit archaeology because that's a little bit of it is supposed to be a little bit of an insult of the turn of archaeology he it so it's good to remember that so you have these guys on the podcast for three four hours and the audience listening thanks yeah why don't these guys get a fair hearing i mean it's like there's the mainstream and then there's these guys press but but there isn't just these guys there's hundreds of alternative archaeological theories so which one gets the play which one gets attention which one doesn't and for a mainstream archaeologists who is busy in the field and trying to grants and so on they mostly just don't have the time to sort through all these alternative theories because this is just one and as we'll see in the next couple hours there's hundreds and hundreds of things to be addressed so that's kind of what we do so just to rattle off a few of the lost tribes of israel who connell colonize the americas mormon archaeology expo
nation of native americans that kenzie runestones in minnesota that the vikings had come here the black egyptian i bought this is when i was in graduate school this book called black athena was published at the junctions were actually black and that the us or western white male dominance of history had written them out of the past so you know this was a whole alternative history all of archaeology fell down man thor heyerdahl in his hypothesis that the polynesian islands were colonized by south americans who went west to went east to west that's since been debunked but that that yet another one of these things south american archaeology olmec statues seem to have like african features on them so maybe africans were
directly across to south america so there's like an eric and donna can secularize stitching on most of these graham rejects in his book at two to your credit so you're good skeptic to but but for for an outsider to do an anthropologist from mars who steps into this thing kohl doesn't know anything is like will they are there alternative which is the right one and how do we know and so what what with the way it works in sciences you know the default position is the skeptical position we we assume your hypothesis is not true not not just you anybody's hypothesis like that the clue nate napier apophysis that was widely published it is widely covered in in mainstream a scientific journals and the popular science magazines like scientific american and it has not fair that well over the last decade or so it's it's still around and still debated but that the so you put it in the in the mainstream through peer review journals and then
when you go to conferences and you have it out and that's kind of where we end up with well this is what we think is probably true for now and then all these other people out here if they don't jump in and into the pool where everybody is there no way for an outsider to know whether these alternative things have any validity or not other than they make a compelling case in a popular book yes but but what are the mainstream scientists think so and the problem is is that a couple of specific things like what i call patternicity the tendency to find meaningful patterns in random noise you know the virgin mary on a grilled cheese sandwich or whatever those are fun examples but you know taking like pictographs picked
glass and then comparing them to constellations like you know here we have some constellations on your up here it's easy in the mine site to find a pattern the question is did those people really think ten thousand years ago five thousand so this is a a field goal rko astronomy and crap are the director of the griffith observatory here in la this is what he does and sometimes a pattern he thinks the patterns means up sometimes there totally random and uh or you take something like the pyramids as graham knows there's a hundred theories about the pyramids and there's the mainstream one and then there's all these other ones and this is why people like the director there you know house he just can't deal with them all you know so this is one example i used in my book white people leeward things that you have one guy calculate there if you divide the height of the pyramid to twice the side of the base you get the number close to and then he just sort of works all these different numbers so therefore its cosmically significant
richard hoagland was like the best example right he would find these patterns and mars and like in claimed that like if you go from this rock to half the distance and like right why would you do that like that doesn't make any sense he would create these patterns and that's ok all scientists look for patterns so like to take climate change either the earth is getting warmer it's not either it's human caused or it's not there's a pattern in the data you can see the pattern question is is the pattern real so this is why we call it we use the term climate consensus it's not a democracy it's not like we voted on it decided this is the truth it's that in dependently all these different scientists working in different fields publishing in different journals come to the same conclusion so we call this
silly and science or convergence of evidence science that it's not like these guys are meeting on the weekends going boy we got to combat those you know those crazy right wingers with our data there in dependently coming to these conclusions that lifts our confidence that yeah there's probably something to their theory such that there's now so much data converted to this you'd have to deconstruct every one of those independent lines so then you have things like when i called the problem of the residue of anomalies in any field there are residue of anomalies we can't explain so like ufos for example ufologists and me skepta agree that ninety to ninety five percent of all the ufo sightings are explained by natural phenomenons venus swamp gas airplanes peace whatever they know that so we really only talking about five percent like how do you explain that one right there in nineteen sixty seven on june third
i don't know no one knows that one and then from there they build well that's my case and if you can explain that then i have a no no no well that's very different than what we're talking about is how is that relevant to us here totally relevant because i think almost all of your argument is based on this residue of anomalies what we call the god of the gaps argument if you scientists can't explain you know this particular rock right here or that particular petroglyphs and i'm going to count that tord my compilation of data to support my hypothesis of a lost civilization but no one is saying that the scientists can't explain it would essentially particularly randall with a series of images is shown is that what you have here something that can be explained by rapid rapid melting
the ice caps in randall step in a few but well let's just okay we go ahead if you want well they do say i mean depends you mean by rapid you know i mean a glacial dan that is our geologist with some of that that breaks that's fairly rapid back in ninety six it was a very popular book called the the no is flood this is a serious book by two geologists and said it was the rapid filling up of the black sea that swamped over the civilizations living on the edges of this and that that's where the no no whacking flood story comes from a man says it was it was widely debated and so on and sets it has it that well yeah but that's fairly rapid i mean we're talking over the course of weeks or months or years at two a geologist you know thousands thirty years is rapid so it in impact biocom it happens in a couple hours or a couple of days or weeks versus a couple of months or years what do we mean by rapid what are you saying then yeah
okay so what are you saying about their theories in particular okay so the problem i think graham that the deepest problem is is it much of your theory depends on negative evidence that is i don't accept the mainstream explanation for the pyramids the sphinx the much a peach to whatever let's not talk about that let's just talk about this specific subject is where it's going to take a long time just to get out of this yeah alright so my final point is is the falsifiability one that is what would it take to refute your hypothesis like for me the answer would be like of called the beckley tapi turned out to be what you think it might have been the place where advanced ancient civilization once and have a what are they used it where are the metal tools where are the writing the examples of writing perhaps the decision was made not to use metal perhaps a decision was made that errors had taken place that that
in reinventing civilization we shouldn't perhaps go down quite the same route as before uh perhaps writing isn't always an advance perhaps perhaps uh an oral tradition which records in memory which enhances and uses the power of memory may be a very effective way of dealing with it we regard writing as a as an advance and i can see lots of reasons why it is in advance but if we put our self into the heads of ancient bulls maybe it wasn't i mean there's a tradition from ancient egypt that the god thoth god of wisdom was the inventor of writing but we have we have have a text in which he questioned by a pharaoh who is who is saying well actually have you really done a good thing introducing writing because then it's may roam around the world without wise advice to to put them into into context and what will happen to memory when people say
so there might be a choice not to not go that way alright but then what do you mean by advance when you say there used to be a last advanced civilization before ten thousand years ago which is when i was here for a second because what we know for a fact is that the carbon dating in all the area around the beckley tapi is somewhere around twelve thousand years that credit levin thousand six hundred years ago this is not nearly as they found so far a great deal of go back and tap is still underground right so it least what we know is someone built some pretty impressive structures a one thousand six hundred years ago seven thousand years before stone when that story broke this is long before you came along with your book it was controversial in is that we thought hunter gatherers could not do something like this because to do that you need a large population with the division of labor and so forth and so what the response to r kelly
this was well i guess we were wrong about hunter gatherers maybe they can do more stuff than we gave them credit for so why is that not a reasonable hypothesis versus they were it was actually advanced but we mean something completely different by advanced not fighting and metal and technology we mean i don't know what you mean what do you mean well i mean we have we have a body of archaeology which goes on for decades which is saying that megalithic sites for example gigantea in malta or hungary mormon i'd megalithic sites date to no older than five and a half six thousand years old ggg gontier would push it close to six thousand years old and there's no how to than that that therefore that the megalithic site is associated with a certain stage of neolithic development then along comes go back lee teppei seventh years older than stonehenge incredibly sophisticated site
very large scale it mean clash smith sadly he's passed away i spent three days working the site with him he was very generous to me he showed me a lot he talk to me a lot and he said basically fifty times as much as they've already excavated is still is still under the ground that there's hundreds and hundreds it's a giant stone pillars that they've identified with ground penetrating radar he's not even sure if there ever if they're ever going to excavate them but by so accounts we are looking if we take what still under the ground into account we're looking at the largest megalithic site that's ever been created on earth and it pops up eleven thousand six hundred years ago with no obvious background to it it just i have no one there to meet all of that's rather put but that we know of but to me that said that's immediately a rather puzzling an interesting situation and i would be remiss as as an author and inquire into these matters if i didn't take great interest in that the sudden appearance seventh
india's before stonehenge of a megalithic site the dwarf stonehenge to me that's a mystery and it's really with enquiring into we love to put it into perspective that's more than two thousand years older than what we now consider to be the building of the great pyramid of giza in combat in because comparison to us to then between our time now in twenty seventeen in the construction agreement you talk about two thousand years earlier than that and that is unbelief but when you're talking about seven thousand years before what we thought people were doing ok but my point was that instead of before we go down the road of constructing a lost civilization that was super advanced but different from our idea of advance why not just a tribute to these fully modern hunter gatherers who had the same size brains we have and so on that they were able to
got into this week just under estimated their abilities so why did i feel just tell us for so long togethers couldn't do it and we needed agricultural because actually i could generate surpluses that could pay for the actual is absolute but that was it so now what archaeologists is saying well i guess we you're wrong about hunter gatherers well they might be wrong about hunter gatherers or there might be another civilization that they had not discovered that is been on earth sorry michael lost lost civilizations are not such an extraordinary idea i mean nobody do that the indus valley civilization existed at all until some railway work was done around my injured arrow in nineteen twenty three suddenly a whole civilization pops up out of the woodwork there's just never been taken into account before the 1920s we still can't read it script you know that idea that we that we come across that another turn of the spade reveals information that causes us to reconsider not just was it huh the gatherers or agricultural list but perhaps something bigger than the
is involved or in between that's not that's not such an extraordinary idea i get it that mainstream archaeology doesn't want to go there but that's my job no i don't i don't think that that that's correct they knew they would be happy to go there if there's evidence for it by what you just said they now fully accept the indus valley civilizations how did that happen if they were done medically close minded and i don't say that they would automatically close minded about that the evidence the massive amount of evidence that came up with the discovery of one daro harappa rapper another another such sites is very difficult you have to be completely stupid to say that's not a civilization gobekli tepe is a bit more nuanced you know we have stone we have stone circles it's an interesting astronomical alignments the world's first paisley north south allied building made no definite again that's a pattern is the thing well i'm siding clash match well that's alright but i if any of us who read back into history ten thousand
years ago what we're thinking that they might have been thinking that's always a dangerous for anybody not just you always point who's close my classmate was the original excavator of quebec the tent he was that the head of the german archaeological institute dig out to go back to tempe he kind he spent three days is showing me around the site and and really nobody's disputing the astra michael alignments of quebec the timber they went perfectly interesting the classmate but that that and what is the alignment like house of israel as to when you have a a perfectly north side north south aligned structure perfectly north south to true north not magnetic north then you are dealing with astronomy definition and their other alignments of the sunscreen n as established today or with the procession of the economic system as well it's the rotation axis of our planet ok so it it is day
it's exactly the same place where was pointing those points to true north okay but but but back to see that they don't want to go sure they want to go there they would happy be happy to go there case in point two weeks ago in the journal nature of the most prestigious scientific journal in the world there was publisher article that humans or maybe neanderthals lived in san diego area one hundred and thirty thousand years ago this is an order magnet older than the clover status with mastodon bones they found was an actual it's yet so it so here's an example of how okay so clearly there's not some conspiracy to keep alternative people are friends or or radical theories out it was published in peer reviewed the most prestigious journal in the world there it is time that what happened well there's nothing that being a massive reaction to that and lots of lots of scathing remarks by other academics yet but that's normal that's how science works you get you get pushed back if you got to have a thick skin it's just the way it goes gotta have a thick skin that's that's for sure but maybe sometimes
skin is so thick that you just can't sense anything around well of course we don't want that either so what do you think is going on when you look at something like go beckley tempe that's covered covered up basically right yes deliberately buried again eyesight cloud smith he's the authority on this he's the excavator he absolutely adamantly insists that that's it was deliberately buried and finally covered with a hill which is what the beckley tapi means in the turkish language pot bellied hill and that you're talking about something give me the perspective of how large they believe it is currently as of current let's excavate at the moment is on a scale of stonehenge what's under the ground maybe as much as fifty times larger jesus but it called template that no one lived there there's no tool there's no cool you're talking i mean hell they sound as a but if it's buried it should be preserved should be pottery there's no pottery no writing no articles of clothing known
live there were you saying nobody lived there so why should they have pottery why should pottery be in the phil but why would they got why they go along and brakes and pots and stick it in the artificial feels something there trash when they something that would indicate it's different a different kind of people than what we're used to seeing in the archaeological record well teller it's just rubbish that they poured in its just stones and earth buckets of it in other words gram for you to gain support for your theory amongst mainstream archaeologists they want to see positive evidence to overturn the old theory another is the burden of proof is on the person challenging the main street i don't really agree in every field but is and there's some proof that the the the stream idea of these hunters and gatherers never had anything in what the theory was that would indicate these people were building something you remotely the size of go beckley tempe to me that's the stunning beauty of this find it over those are ideas of primitive gathers it could not do this apparently they can
one is possible yes that's right so this article is somebody else because the bigotry of low expectations you know it's like we had this kind of low expectations for these hunter gathers maybe we should jettison that idea and in my own other field of the history of real engine they also threw that out because this apparently was a a kind of a spiritual religious that's the wrong word they would have used actually nobody can nobody can know that that that's right so but if it was this is that the big national geographic articles emphasize that maybe this is the very first religious spiritual temple ever built because they didn't live there so they went there for a reason is also possible that this is signs that civilization was more advanced twelve thousand years ago than we thought okay more advance what do we again when we by talking about the ability to bid to construct an amazing structure well okay that's how big was it like hell with all these don't some of them are twenty feet tall yeah but some of them are smaller with with with astronomical alignments classmate called it a center of innovation he was
intrigued by the way that agriculture images around go back the to the at the same time that go back to tempe is is is created i mean he went on record with maine perhaps he's not right but he went on my code with me is saying that was the first agriculture these were the people who inven did agriculture not to me the notion that hunter gatherers wake up one morning and invent megalithic architecture the world's largest mega excite and at the same moment invent agriculture stretches credulity a bit and i think i would prefer to propose and i have proposed what we're looking at is evidence of some kind of transfer of technology that people came into that area who had other knowledge but that the plight and perhaps they mobilized the local population around the site perhaps that's precisely why we see agriculture developing there so perhaps that's the skilled as being hostile but but i don't see anything particularly space okay the stone work is spectacular but that that's not any more advanced
a few center few millennium afterwards we talk about something twenty feet tall me as we don't what we know a couple hundred gathers also a hundred people can move multi ton stone does mystery in moving the stones i still moving right twenty ton stones in indonesia today i am a megalithic culture still exists you also know the carving on the outside is extremely complex is three dimensional carving okay but i mean you know that means that last you know what that means lasko at thirty thousand years ago has magnificent cave paintings with dimension data but that's painting you know they they don't hold on a second do you know what i'm saying when i say three dimensional carvings like venus carvings were on the outside mean didn't carve them into the rock they carved away the rock around them which is pretty sophisticated stuff for hunter gatherers we're doing this on these twenty foot tall stone so i mean it's pretty impressive stuff ok but there the assumption is that they couldn't have figured this out we know from modern societies where say australian aborigines
in one generation they go from stone tools to fly in airplanes the brains are quite capable of doing these did they did they go from stone to stone tools to flying airplanes without somebody introducing the airplane yeah you actually king's argument for no no it's not that much of a reach to carve stone i've been carving stone said is higher archaeological opinion on megalithic sites for decades before this was precisely that it was beyond their ability to ten and now the mainstream is changes a little let's let's or the very least a little shift pause for a moment let's pause for a moment so for sure we all agree human beings made this yes so the argument so the argument is not whether or not aliens made it the arg one is whether or not human he's made it that were sophisticated well there are clearly fistic ated enough to make this incredible structure that is
is some sign of some sort of civilization i'm i believe so yeah enjoy your antics rock sure agree with graham that we've we've again under sold who these people were my friends diamond goes to pop into guinea he talks of the of the opening chapter guns germs and steel how smart these people are that live out there in nature and what it takes to survive i'm sure he wouldn't last an hour you know from la he would last an hour with his pop into guinean friends out there in the in the while well then that 'cause he doesn't know how to survive and they've been passing down the information for generate they're variation very smart ok so it's not sure it's not a problem of intelligence and is there ok so here's the other thing we no is that there might be lots more of these sites and and where there's there i visited one of them toronto pay you've got you've got the t shaped pill is sticking out the side of a hill in the farmers backyard i mean i i think we're actually at the beginning of opening up the same
not at the end of it okay but said that it would be for you okay why not to say we don't know this is a spectacular mystery leave it at that right why write a book well you guys on a filling all again guys on the mainstream side won't speculate on what explore i don't claim to be an archaeologist i'm not a scientist i'm an author it's my job to offered an alternative point of view and to offer a coherently argued alternative point of view and i must say go back the tapi strikes me as a gigantic mystery and a mystery that is worthy of exploration from a point of view that may not satisfy you well yup satisfy maybe you and i are you and your colleagues and i don't i don't i certainly don't have to satisfy you or them that's not my project you're opening chapter which meant i thought i really love the the the kind of conversation style you had with schmidt in the book where he's dialoguing where make goes and look at this and then he says but but but but wait what's that again now
like a little bit like columbo like what wait i have just one more quick just one more question and you know that mystery kind of seconds that's perfectly okay that's great i mean that's that's what science is all about isn't covering mysteries that we then have to figure out so there's always more mysteries but that doesn't mean that's not positive evidence in favor of a particular theory like a lost civilization it's just we can't explain this full stop yeah we certainly can't explain it and you can explain it by saying that we underestimate hunter and gatherers either well why not we know they made it whatever you want to call him well we know humans made it that's right we know humans made but whenever you want to climb but why do they believe that people were only hunters and gatherers twelve thousand years ago 'cause they didn't have any evidence the contract right this is evidence to the contrary i agree so you that they weren't hunter gatherers ok but there's several stages in between just you know twelve people living out in the jungle by themselves versus us you know there's like a whole bunch of different i would say that go
weekly tappy is a gigantic stage well we don't okay they didn't live there so we we have to figure out where where were they living and what was there so that that has to be excavated the only ten percent while an meanwhile what you're saying is that we shouldn't speculate at all because i mean mainstream archeology speculating okay just regulating when saying it's definitely but hunter gatherers who did this that's also pretty much more of a reach okay but not that it meant that they may be more than hunter gatherers state they may have been partially settled there's you can have any kind of number of state thank you khan apparently have is the possibility of a transfer of technology from people who really monsters of that technology i read it when they came in at where are these people wears what more you're dealing with their own twelve thousand years ago said that let's find their homes i don't know i don't know the their homes matter with their homes even survive after twelve thousand years i'm not sure what surprised there's something
trash is trash and tools we've got go beckley tempe it confronts us it charlie is the mainstream model i think it's reason to consider the possibility that something more than just hunter gatherers involved here in creating this extraordinary place well that's all i've done it seems to me that to to say hunter gatherers could build this i'm not wouldn't be opposed the idea that there hunting and gathering but it does certainly buy a lot of leisure time yes a lot of leisure time well we know sorry like well again if we this back particularly within that the climate zone at eleven thousand and six to twelve thousand and thirteen thousand years ago whatever it turns out to be we're dealing with extremely demand challenging climate which which wouldn't ness sara lee to my mind because two to the emergence of a settled culture that would be capable of
taking a project on this scale and as somebody who built a lot of things and moved quite a few heavyweights in my time uhm i find it the the idea sort of perplexing to me that they would be i would have to ask is what is their motive what is their motive for undertaking a project on this scale because it's an enormous project and to move a twenty ton lack of stone is really a challenging task to undertake today today well without without you know the infrastructure of of large machines and so forth to do it by hand it would be an enormous undertaking and i you know to me it's like when are they having time to hunt and gather when you're engaged in a project of this scale but we know hunter gatherers have way more free time than modern society people do that's the one thing we've learned is that it's a pretty good way to make a living
they have a better berry diet that we have this is the neanderthal diet right they have a better very diet and a lot more free time that's a lot less stress we knew that all along about hunter gatherers when we were saying they couldn't build megalithic sites we're looking at a time to do it where the environment is undergoing rapid changes to which adaptations would be extremely challenging and we know those changes are going on all over the planet we know that sea levels are rapidly rising over a period of a few one thousand years from us east and low about four hundred feet up to the present level we also know that that by orders we're shifting dramatically all over the planet the date the effects of the younger dryas were global pretty much that is i think the emerging consensus now dead that both famous fears north and south were being affected by the climate changes of the younger dryas so what is replacing this this phenomena this this project within this context
these extremely challenging times in which you know adaptation to the environmental changes could easily be there the all consuming challenge of the times i'm just finding it difficult to imagine it a disconnect to to see this disconnect between a project of this magnitude and the motive for doing it during a time when obviously the environment could be posing serious constraints upon ability to function in that random we don't even know the motives of the easter islanders and no we don't raise these huge step by we know they did it but he said had become a central question know what something had those motivated but let's get back to beckley yep be so we so let's just be real clear we know there are humans we know that it's at least twelve thousand years old and we know that the real dispute here the real question is did these people have structures and did they have agriculture we
well they were human beings they were essentially modern human beings so were they are gatherers or did they have structures before go beckley tempe they didn't have structures and they didn't have agriculture exactly they did so the fact that they were able to build something so monumental what kind of a leap at all to think that these people could figure out how to plant food and figure out how make a house well i mean again if you look back thirty thousand years forty thousand years to these cave paintings these are pretty sophisticated yeah beautiful they are clearly they had abstract reasoning they could think from the concrete to the abstract and so on it's not a big reach to go from that to a moving stones around i said the big difference between painting and engraving on cave walls an asset in creating creating the largest megalithic site that's ever been built on it i think there's a huge difference between those two i mean nobody would compare the construction
on on stonehenge or or it with with k paintings i agree with you the cave paintings are magnificent i've had the privilege to visit many of the painted cave stunning work and as picasso said when he amount of alaska we have invented nothing i mean they were the that was that modern human mind symbolic my dad worked there but this is another matter this is a large scale construction project that's going on and it's not just a construction parser like huts it's one hundred hundreds of very very low megalithic pillars which have to be mobilized brought to the place you know organizing a workforce in order to do that even that requires preparation and time and learning and practice is not something that you wake up one morning and just can do overnight you thing the paintings are more impressive than go back like yeah or at least comparable i think that's absolutely ridiculous to convey three dimensionality on a two d a plane that that's what because a man is light wow that's a great it's like developing
perspective tend to use the natural shape it's wall is but it's not create a three dimensional perspective look is that's pretty abstract comparing apples and pears is not a construction project it's not i don't think i don't know him but i don't think it's even remotely when i'm saying is that it doesn't take a huge leap of the imagination take these people were pretty smart they had no they were smart we know what they're smart just because of the fact that those construction projects were done by who by whoever we know they were smart whoever built gobekli tepe it was clearly intelligent whoever made those 3d carvings clearly they were intelligent but to think that one drawing on cave paintings is more impressive not wrecked just twenty foot stone columns it with three dimensional carvings on the bow of a lot of animals that weren't even in native to the to the region that's a sorry the case yeah because they could have been the most once a director of my point is that you know is that these paintings are like say thirty forty thousand years old to go back we tapi so there's tens of thousands of years to develop more that we that will pull up
very likely to find more archaeological site yet to be touched up till now we haven't found that we haven't we haven't found all of that intermedia material which sees a see if i could if i could actually see that intermediate material between the upper upper paleolithic cave fought and go back to ted if i could see the jewel evolution and development of skills i wouldn't need to invoke a civilization the survivors of a lost civilization have mastered those skills elsewhere to come in and teach those skills that go beckley tempe but it still looks to me like a transfer of technology unless you can show me that evolutionary process this whereby i can understand how this group hunter gatherers became equipped to create this giant site where they practiced where they learn skill to move the stones to organize a way for us to feed and water the work force in a rather dry place all of that is actually quite a logistical challenge yep obviously somebody medit somehow some yeah so the real question is do they have structures did they have agriculture did they have
some sort of a community where they lived in the stash location i would imagine so would that would push back the i'm where we thought that there was a civilization that would push them back into a realm of it least stepping out of the hundred their stage number guy schmidt as you show in your book he did not go as far as you certainly not right now but he admitted it's a mystery ok why that would be the scientific approach i don't know what it is great mystery let's just wait and see versus i'm going to postulate a lost civilization nothing wrong with that gram free country and scientist do this all the time as you've mentioned there's a rather humorous thing which i have to say actually not even ask jamie to pull up the the couple of images of fingerprints of the gods that's the book i'm known for and when i published fingerprints of the gods in nineteen ninety five
actually i was saying civilization is much older and much more mysterious than we thought an i was ridiculed for proposing that two thousand and thirteen one of the magazines that ridiculed me new scientist magazine in britain publishes a other story picture of go beckley tempe and the headline lies ation is much older and much more mysterious all right there and we saw okay fair enough and then it and so i just to do this i mean i've followed paley at the apology for my whole adult life and one of the big mysteries is how did we get a big brain how do we get to abstract reasoning from from say what chimps can do no one knows the doubling of the human brain size over a period of two million years because no one knows every couple years there's a new book out its climate change it was the throwing arm cooking that's right okay mate you know maybe there's another big one harbor perfect mate okay and these folks come and go and so don't have legs some of a doubt and it's just the way it goes
and then there's terrence mechanics pretty obvious it with psychedelics yeah that's terence mckenna is not made the brain bigger but that this is the old julian uh the julian jaynes number bicameral mind not at all this is david lewis williams who is professor of anthropology at the university of witwatersrand in south africa a psychological theory of cave on old q dusted terence mckenna and food of the gods he won a brilliant thinker what a little tend to think but david lewis williams at the university of witwatersrand had been working on this problem since one thousand nine hundred and seventy he and his argument is that the remarkable similarities that we see in rock and cave art all around the world are explained that weird even with a shamanistic art shamanism involves altered states of consciousness this is typical visions of altered states of consciousness and it seems you have a company a great leap forward in human behavior for this in your book i in supernatural natural as did
richard rams theory he that this is a highly regarded scientists at harvard so he is that meeting guy right hook in me right that seat by cooking the protein that's what gives you the energy to build a huge brain bytes another's guys starting with ten ten plus is on his side he's harvard already reacted an even so his book was like maybe it's probably a series of different events and a bunch of different factors that's right it could be a number different things so let's get away from gobekli tepe tapi an ancient civilizations and let's get back to the geological evidence which randall you're an expert at and this is one of the things that you had a dispute with and this is one of the reasons why we got everybody together now what what is your thoughts on what randall and graham proposed specifically random who is much more on the geological side of things yeah well
it's why i brought in my phone a friend right hello just such but but by way of background after your show i thought you know this let's just give us a fair hearing this is what we do so this will be our cover story and i think the end of summer issue comes out really sorry i hope that mark dafont is going to be doing some more work on the draft of his article for you that is up online because that article is full of bullshit eight minutes about me which had demonstrated plea fall so he he's i yeah is that i'm happy to i'm happy to engage with the ticket or issues well i have to put on my reading glasses and that whatever articles online this is not been published it claims it claims that it's a draft of the article that will appear in the two s two thousand and seventeen edition of skeptic magazine so pulled up graham and then sure yeah let's billy graham go over first so we'll have the mark on so here is you get the sense on magicians of the gods by the way i'm
michael i mean you say that you're here to you know to respectfully aim to get at the truth yeah there is conjuring to law civilization from now let me let me just get to the top of this i've got it here just bear with me a second so amongst the words in mark defonce article he is accusing me of ju ping the public saying that i'm public enemy number one he's accusing arm waving wait i do way biomes pontificating well my grandfather was a prime minister of the church little interest in peer reviewed research claim that now academic would debate that's utter bullshit i had a debates with his i he's a leading egyptian egyptologist back in two thousand and fifteen that was not my fault it's he had walked out on that debate i can play the so if you like a half of so he sting me and then looking out and refusing to debate further so it's bulshit to say i don't debate or i'm not willing to debate and
he says that i'm calling number of people into buying his books now how can we get any dialogue going when somebody begins like that ok then would you like some further bear with me i just have to scroll down and i don't have a mouse don't have a mouse so hanko can call some claim to several times that i could not get the a debate them not true i'm accused of doing an about face since since fingerprints of the gods are my my view is not allowed to evolve with new ever is that somehow i am on my part let me just finish it then cheap shot you know he cites jesus whose and and and and accuses me of not three a lot not having the scientific knowledge to issue deal with issues of gravitational it's true that hey suse camara who is a descent of the incas who has worked
seventy years on the mega lists of sexy woman whose father before him afraid or gemara worked seventy years is true that he's got a way out theory about gravitation thing is state in my book that it's a way out theory what i i want to say quoted in the attack is that however this isn't the part his theory i'm interested in where i feel he is solidly persuasive is in observations of the anomalous character of the monuments of the had these eccentric center the thought doesn't site that he just presents me is buying what jesus camara says i mean if that's the standard that you're going to have in skeptic magazine you have a this problem and then go back chappie he contends that go back the is used to advance to have been completed by hunter gatherers and must have been constructed by more advanced civilization well no that's not what i say i say it was constructed by hunter gatherers but that they were advised supported by people who have knowledge of this kind of work beforehand how is that getting a well i
very different i'm not saying it was constructed by am saying that the that a group of people settled among hunter gatherers and transferred some deals for them he says that seventy quotes me hancock makes the following stunning claim quote our ancestors are being initiated into the secrets of metals and how to make so it's a nice i do not make that claim i'm reporting that this name is made in the book of enoch that is not my then what else so you don't think that's the explanation well i'm being misrepresented by your author here if he wants to represent me if he chooses me of cherry picking he shouldn't cherrypick my statements he should quit overconfidence let's get it right it's out there it's out there on the internet you still work here is a beautiful one he didn't know it was on here is a beautiful one he cites some cloud schmidt on l on the character to schmidt makes a salient point almost as if he anticipated high cookbook quote fabulous or mythical creature
creatures such a send or the sphinx winged bowls of horses do not yet to any iconography and therefore in the mythology of prehistoric they must be recognized as creations of the high cultures which arose later well bullshit push it bulshit you've just been talking about the painted caves go to show vague if you will see a lion man that whole entit startle lion man carved out of carved out of mammoth ivory go to go to show they bison man straddling lined woman her right arm is transferring is transit transforming into a into the head of a lion so exactly these certainly these mythical creatures did exist in the upper paleolithic this is rubbish to say that they didn't i mean how can i go on the teapot oh yeah okay so he said he's taking issue with me because i suggest the vulture on pillar forty three innings zhu de is ray
presenting the teapot teapot asterism all of the constellation of sagittarius and he goes and gives us little things of uncle sam and some other thing that he shows if you know anybody can impose any image on on anything well it's not my fault that a couple of academics who didn't even talk to me and had nothing whatsoever to do to me a published a major study in the i quoted to gain the mediterranean archaeology and art kilmer tree a peer reviewed journal when they make precisely that identification so at least i'm not alone at least there are there a peer review credential scholars who also agree that that figure is represent the teapot asterism within the constellation of sagittarius no reference to that shocks opinions supposed to not go into the minutiae because they've already been dismissed a study by lee richeson buffy far from it that study doesn't dismiss shock at none of that study was done on the body of the sphinx itself it was done
and the volume the sphinx temples and by the way the dates are extremely troubling some of them could push it as far as three thousand and six b c that the work was done or as early in some cases as one thousand bc i don't think that study proves anything and and and so on and so just to clarify what you do believe that and so that we don't misrepresent you so you don't think that the loss of was ation instructed them on the use of metals i i don't know i don't see evidence for that to go back where would you put that in the book then i didn't put it in the book i was quoting the book of enoch it's a huge passage on them on the book of enoch it's not me who sang that is the book of enoch the say i understand but why i fall i required all i require your different to do is to state that hancock is citing the book of enoch he didn't do that that is that is the i disingenuous is up the plight would you guys use but
more than bodies ingenuous it's it's a character well that's what the question is is why would what's the context of including that in your book i forget well the the context is that actually i was i was criticizing zechariah sitchin that's primarily what i was i don't think that a lot of civilization instructed the people who build go basically tapi on the use of metals and tools i see no evidence for that i see go back the tap the icon i go say they instructed them on the use of metals and tools unless i can find evidence for what did they do we donate generated agriculture they created a center of excellence around which i don't i got a not the day who build publicly tapi the loss of lies ation and advise them that you think happened yeah what did they do it's a they've come through a cat a resume their survivors few in number this is my scenario you don't have to accept it i'm sure you don't they settle amongst take refuge amongst hunter gatherers i mean i don't know you're probably quite have some survival skills i don't have many i mean if if we would
a comet impact in the world today which were to take out all the underpinnings of modern civilization i my go settle with hunt together is because they're the people who know best how to deliver i mean that i have chosen i will skills yeah except those of most of the others but i might be able to transfer some of my knowledge to them i might be able to might have something that i could trust with them and i might have very strong reasons why i might not choose to transfer all of it but so in other words perhaps this is what happened ok maybe but how is that different from zachariah sitchin's that well the aliens advised well well i don't know difference i think is massively different especially since like arise searching houses aliens arriving here in nineteen seventies nasa technology whitley he wrote his book in the nineteen seventies i mean i do sir i i don't go there they'll make that i don't make that suggestion i'm simply saying perhaps there's been a forgotten episode in human history perhaps it's fingerprints are
add a number of sites around the world but perhaps the extremely defensive arrogant and patronizing attitude of mainstream academia is stopping i'm considering that possibility and therefore i campaign to get that possibility considered and i try to do so with as loud a voice as possible well the year do you too man it doesn't disturb you that you mean you run skeptic magazine and someone publishes something like that i mean that goes against the whole idea of critical thinking i mean it's miss representing his quotes misrepresenting representing his perspective his point of view it's it's disingenuous this is one reason we're doing this so we could get his why would anybody right something like that and why would you guys publish something like that without checking the facts we are this was not supposed to be posted online and why is it when it's online though how to something get online what i just i just hasn't it will do that a useful as a country your side of the debate the reasons were here is to get your point of view exactly right all right so
you're saying that there's no evidence that any lost civilization exists the nine saying that fingerprints of their influence on later peoples we do know existed their physical objects i say go back the tap is one of them i say the sphinx is another but see this is that argument from either ignorance or personal incredulously i don't accept the mainstream are i can't think of how this pyramids could've been built therefore it was built by somebody else through some other technology that's not what i'm saying just said does postdating it but just once i get this fixes fixes older i do go robert shocks argument on the geology i'm also very interested in the astronomy of the site and again i have slides that i could show on this if we have if we have time might want to get into ed crops a criticism of their ryan correlation and why he says it's up to upside down i can talk to you about that you know
we do i mean i know it crops argument about that and that was from the 90s i think once we have our son robert shocks conclusions i don't that's not something i know about this raptor it's huge factor you got your mark you want different knows about shock and he rejected on the basis of that paper yeah and that paper really doesn't date the sphinx it works with dating of large blocks in the valley and the sphinx temples there not a single sample taken from this week all right then who dated it who dated it to somebody else and then why why do mainstream archaeologists not accept the older date for the sphinx and the answer they have a whole bunch of other evidence that points to the i think the answer is very to your question is very simple mark leyner hanzaki who ask put it on record back in one thousand nine hundred and ninety two when john the westin robert shock first presented the rainfall erosion evidence on the sphinx
anne what later in hawaii said is this things can't possibly be twelve thousand plus years old be cause there was no other culture anywhere in the world that was capable of creating large scale monumental architecture like this show me one other structure that's capable of doing that well they could say that in one thousand nine hundred and ninety two michael but they can't say it in twenty seventeen not since go beckley tempe phoenix mind gram could you please for people so this could be a standalone thing people could understand what is the argument about the sphinx the enclosure this thanks and doctor robert shock from boston he who's a geologist what was his conclusion what doc is saying is that the sphinx the trench out of which the sphinx is cut back as the unmistakable evidence of precipitation induced weathering weathering caused by exposure to a substantial period of heavy rainfall and that is particularly pointed out in the vertical fishers in the trench they see the sphinx itself has been
get to so much restoration over so many years that it's difficult for people to even see the core body of the sphinx today but it's easy could see the vertical fishes even down at the back of that that is that is what shock counts as rainfall precipitation and use weathering heavy rainfall which is selectively removing the softer leads and leaving the hotter letters in place and the problem is we don't have that rainfall in giza in egypt four and a half thousand years ago you have to go back much earlier to get that ring full as a suggestion so that's the suggestion by robert shakya independently yes of your conclusion totally independent independently chuck
recently on many things yeah as a matter of fact and and i disagree with him on many things but i i think he's on the money on this so that alone would set back at least that one i mean it's pretty much established that the great parent of he's a was constructed about two thousand five hundred bc rises absolutely no doubt that he was project went on to gaze at around two thousand five hundred so you are not that the whole thing was that much older it was that parts of it seem to have been from an earlier civilization or at least that civilization far far earlier than i was i would say that the ground plan what we have at giza the basic layout of the site was established in what the ancient egyptians cold septet p the first time astronomically in geologically i and my colleagues suggest that the first time can be dated to the period of about twelve one slash two to thirteen thousand years ago that that that
was when the site was laid out because there's intriguing astronomical alignments of the great pyramids to the belt of orion i know at krupp has completely opposite view on this and of the great sphinx to the constellation of leo rising due e housing the sun on the equinox the astrological age of leo again i have and that was a line with the geological evidence that robert jacques it aligns with the geological evidence the eight years originally so pretty much exactly spans the younger dryas mattress and so the only argument against that at the time was that there were no other structures like that from twelve thousand years correct and then crop said that the that the orion correlation wasn't real because it was upside down i'm do you want to get into that now well first that's not the only argument is that ok if this fixes built or the layout for the whole thing is built in gives a ten eleven thousand years ago and the pyramids were built in a twenty five hundred bc
what happened in between where all the people the trash the places where they live well there's different styles of constructing like us but not i didn't i would propose michael something like i'm on the street which has a relatively small archaeological footprint is on the side i mean the idea of information knowledge and traditions lasting for thousands of years within a religious system shouldn't be too upset to us i mean judaism is is is dealing with ideas that are ready best part of four thousand years old if we go back to or the child is and so on and so forth so that's all i'm suggesting really that that the idea is preserve maintain that the the size of the on the site but in something like a monastery which is which has got a very small archaeological footprint it is not high perhaps one can only speculate and i think there's a lot speculation on the archaeological site to one can only speculate perhaps having gone through a cataclysm perhaps they felt to blame for this
only a rightly i mean there are many many traditions in which humanity's behavior is implicated in the cataclysm that takes place and perhaps they didn't want to which civilization on completely right that perhaps they perhaps they waited passed down the knowledge through initiates enough was there to create a miss because it's undoubtedly a mystery that the construction of the great pyramids the first huge it's an easy preceded only really by the us pyramid at saqqara the construction of the great pyramids is vastly superior to the construction of the pyramids of the fifth and sixth dynasty that follow it and that's a little bit counter intuitive that we have this collapses because one would have expected it to go back to so it sounds like the work on the pyramid started already with the level of knowledge yes but okay so here's here's i would think about that as
how to perhaps scene and maybe because yes well so you have a bunch of egyptologists in archaeologists have been working on this site for centuries so this is one of the most ancient mysteries and so on and so say let's say there's like twenty lines of evidence that point to build roughly around this time period here and then you come out and say ok but there's this one and uh the rain thing that sits in that there was only rain at this time now there's a huge gap one anomaly or line of evidence here in like twenty here we're talking about a different structures so there's not a lot of evidence appoints the sphinx being from a particular time period will he say and like twelve thousand right i'm saying the rifle evidence suggests that i added a line meant that its alignment with the consolation of leo housing the sun right right on on the spring equinox is an equinox a market nobody would dispute that nobody would dispute that did you did you well no i mean if you make a monument pointing perfectly jewish i've stood on the back of the sphinx at dawn on the spring a an example he may i get i could show
picture it's head lines up perfectly with the rising sun no i don't think anybody even crop is disputing that it's an exponential market not his the thing your nation to gyptian you're building an equinoctial marker in two thousand five hundred bc know what constellation is housing the sun in two thousand five hundred bc i haven't run the program what is in the constellation of taurus selves so logically if you're creating an equinox among the ancient egyptians were not shy about making images of bulls plenty of them if you're making an could not show marker in two thousand five hundred bc re should created in the form of a bull not in the four with a lion you know that's the they've puzzling issue and yet we do have a time when a lion constellation how's the sun at dawn on the spring the knox and that is the period of the younger dryas okay i'd say that's a pretty big but i know you say that and your colleagues also that answer now and then we have a gap of about five or six thousand years where there's nothing
no yeah yeah please do i'm refer back to several articles that were published in the eighties and nineties this one is from out from nature early eighties late quick history of the nile and what its discussing is the evidence that there was a major shift in the in the hydraulic regime of the nile river it says between twenty thousand and twelve thousand years before present timberline into head waters was lower vegetation cover more open than today the nile was a highly seasonal braided river which brought mixed coarse and fine sediments down to egypt and sudan this cold dry interval had entered ended by twelve thousand five hundred years before present when overflow from lake victoria in high rainfall in ethiopia sent extraordinary floods down the main niles and those floods have been documented to have a one hundred and twenty feet above the modern floodplain of the nile
any civilization or whatever you want to call it living the nile river at that time would have had to abandon never they were doing there in their in gime this intensified hydraulic regime and it says it goes on to say a revolutionary change to can was flow flo with a superimposed flood peak so what happened there was a major environmental change that occurred right there around twelve thousand to twelve thousand five hundred years the dating could be adjusted somewhat odd since the early eighties but the point is made is that because of a major hi logical change major educational cover change major environmental change this would have caused also in impose changes upon whatever culture was existing there or living there at the time now what we have is in the aftermath of that event we have basically the emergence of desert which now would
choir serious adaptation it's very light the two that these events could have also decimate the population at the time leaving um basically no work force and then over a period of two or three four thousand years you find that there is enough of a recovery that these kind of monumental structures can be renewed but it's from this and a lot of other studies studies in the eastern mediterranean showing that there are sapropel layers which is caused which is basically material that has been washed in from the continental surface that has not oxidized it is essentially become rotten and carried in organic material carried in off of the continents by this enhanced regime of of water
actually forcing so much water that there was a fresh water leave it on the eastern mediterranean that are caused a sensation in the arm the the the circulation between the upper waters and the lower waters reducing the amount of oxygen brought down to the to the lower waters and so you had these layers of mud that form on the bottom of the mediterranean that show this massive influx of fresh water flowing off out of the and off of the the egyptian continent at the same time so clearly the evidence shows that there were major climatic changes that occurred around this time it is not so speculative to to imagine that whoever whatever we don't have to invoke any kind of super
civilization but whatever cultures were there that were perhaps capable of carving blocks of stone transporting blocks of stone if they were at go beckley tempe during this time range would have been that that that their activity would have been interrupted to the extent that it might have taken melania tour to recover to get the get the labor force necessary to undertake germont monumental programs on the giza plateau so so i think that if we this gradualistic scenario yeah that's a fair question to ask were what happened in that interval but if there is major climatic downturn in a major disruption of the the several patterns of whatever it was already there then you know now we might have an explanation why there would be a gap especially if these events caused a bottleneck in the population of the area of course this is all speculative but it is
not speculative to say that there is multiple lines of evidence suggesting these major even cataclysmic changes that engulfed that part of the during that era so that could that could find an explanation of wider is a gap there makes total sense well it does it because it does it not it only if you have to have the sphinx in conjunction with twelve thousand years ago in the law civilization if save the rain water erosion on this thanks it is is not an explanation for the h and that the traditional accepted ages and that what we think it is then there's no day to fill so really all we're talking about is we have again lots of evidence here one anomaly here i really want the anomaly thing to stick so i got explain the gap the gap is explained by
no changes yeah but what what what is the lots of evidence other than a lot of assumptions is in a lot of babies it's all i mean i actually can you cite me a single contemporary inscription from the date that the sphinx is supposed to have been made that refers to the sphinx i'm can you cite a single contemporary inscription separate from each of the contemporary to the date that egyptologists ascribed to the sphinx in other words the reign of cover can you cite me a single inscription that talks about things being built this is because i don't study this area i don't know okay well you can't because no such description ok okay well so well one i thought they would well maybe it's a giant project is two hundred and seventy feet long is seventy feet high is carved out of solid rock not but you had no reference at all in the old kingdom yes you have to come down to the new kingdom to get references to the sphinx an inscription stuff but you've already said that all of the pyramids were built at the time we think they were built not
thousands of i would say that a great deal of work was done on the parapets at the time of two thousand five hundred bc i think the ground time was laid out and we have like the step pyramid which is cruder not as design design is the other that's it that's a transitional stage at that time often argue to be a transitional stage you've been to this that payment option on our lot right an nd be to gaze at the no i've never been to gays are there well well they do make a very different impact i mean climb the great pyramid five times and i mean you're dealing with something or it makes you different in terms of what's required i mean this thing weighs six million times but it's four hundred and eighty one feet high it consists of two one slash two million individual blocks stone it's aligned to true north within three hundred and sixty years of a single degree to compare that to so is really not a valid comparison at all what's more interesting to me is the radical decline that takes place in pyramid building skills in the fifth and sixth dynasty go to unos coda peppy go to teddy
sakara these are a shambles you can hardly even recognize them as a payment what happened to all that knowledge that's invested in the why does egypt devolve so rapidly what what how do we explain this pristine amazing work that's done on the great pyramid unless there's a legacy of knowledge being attached to it okay so every archaeologist each each of egyptian archaeologists in egypt at all knows everything you just said they have that they don't except any of your arguments why not that's why i'm needed because somebody's got to counter this is it just that they are closed minded and they follow as i have us and they never think for themselves want to see it grows mind i'll play you one slash two minute video of zahir wash refusing to debate with me but all of 'em every one of the egyptologists an archaeologist over the last centuries until i'm senile they're all dogmatically close minded i can't see the arguments declared you or is it they're not convinced by your argument they're not convinced by my argument they genuinely an absolutely believe that their argument is right the notion that
i'm proposing is apparently so preposterous to them that isn't even worthy of consideration but it is worthy of insults and attack on me on my integrity on my decency as a human being on my honesty all of those things get attacked you know main street and that's fine i'm ready for that by the way i know that archaeologists it makes constantly attack each other all the time i used to take this stuff personally but then i want to see what they do to each other the ravaging attack dogs are let loose on any new idea i sometimes wish scientists would actually look what's good in a new idea rather than what's battle but i i get why they do not for one another it's a great at some young graduate student working in that area could make a name for himself by overturning you know my son was a young graduate student at the university of qatar studying egyptology he got marked down in his degree because he proposed the possibility that the pyramids and the sphinx might be a might have
older origins he was impressed by my work it did him a lot of harm in his degree and if all this was true and then a very young and i have my point come i'm not so my point which is if you go against the mainstream view your career does not progresses anything i disagree i mean how many examples how is it that we know anything that we know about each of our example from egyptology of somebody who's gone against the mainstream view would be loaded for so doing well we don't believe that everything about it that we believe two centuries ago it not say napoleon's time right how did dell that knowledge come about how did all the change that science melody begins with shampoo leon and the deciphering of the rosetta stone so how is he able to do that against the mainstream there was no mainstream alright so that he was explained there was no mister mainstream is taken time to form and it's a very solid now scientologists all sing from the same hymn book you'll find very little disagreement about them on anything every field but somehow or another einstein managed to make an impact because he turned out to be
right well i know i started and i don't know if i'm right but i'm gonna continue to oppose that mainstream somebody how don't know that's that's a valid comparison einstein in archaeology alien anthropology i mean it's a completely different feel now than a century ago how did that happen if no one ever accept new ideas they do it happens all all the time while they're being thought except go beckley tempe and that's a new idea and you know we were talking about things taking a long time and it seems like a long time to us is really a blink of the eye and in terms of archaeology were in the middle of that we're essentially in the middle of that with things i go back to tapi with forbes publishing an article about the younger dryas possibly being impact my comments and that being one of the causes of mass extinction right and when these are all mainstream ideas and i when alvarez proposed the impact hypothesis for the demise of the dinosaurs one thousand nine hundred and eighty it was ridiculed and but he turned out to be
and then that became accepted right it takes time about what was that he was are challenging the key turning point the finding of the crater that's what that's what made the difference yeah so we're hot hot to argue with get where's your crater well this is where press we need to bring enough photo friend do that okay marking the comp one of the one of the younger dryas impact impact scientists i mean the the point the point being made is the following firstly that the primary i swear on ice that they as many as four impacts that they were on the north american ice cap some creators have being suggested for example very deep holes in the great lakes us traders have been on and will be looked at by the team in the in the coming months whether to include the cart cars sold rated the code correct corvette checked rain and so on and so forth there all candidates the the creature has not been found yet but i would be surprised the craic was easy to find when
you know the impact is on two mile deep bison you know one of the biggest strewn fields in the world which is the australian strewn tektite strewn feel there's no crater associated with that but everybody except the proxies there's enough of them to to to justify that and that's what's going on around this input type of this on a related question that is not the lost civilizations of the demise of humans but they make a final extinction of north american mammals so this is been long debated before the impact apophysis was proposed in the competing hypotheses were over hunting humans just handed a mature to the point where not every last one to the point where the population numbers get too low and the species can survive or climate change or both the climate change we can the populations than the humans came over and and over a hundred all right so and then the impact hypothesis is proposed okay so this was debated and it didn't fare that well because there were a lot of almost and other species that didn't go extinct that you would expect
from a massive impact like that it would wiped out what why the selected species the kinds of species at humans what hunt are the ones that went extinct wears these others didn't well why don't hunt the largest i i there's no way since the human heart and taunted the predators there is evidence that they hunted willing i am it's but it's a very sparse i mean you have no more than a dozen sites that show association between human hunting and amit and a lot of those like the lubbock lake site is now being questioned what was presumably what previously interpreted being butchering marks on under the with remains there are now being reinterpreted as possibly natural marks on the on the mammoth bones but it's a big stretch to go from okay we've got a dozen sites where we have with remains and along with those mammoth remains we find a few clovis spear points in two or three
cases we actually find or they have found spear points in bad within the mammoth like in the rib cage but a very large stretch to go from there to say that ten or twelve million woolly mammoths or four species of mammoths on four continents were wiped out by paleo indian hunters the in bands of no more than two or three dozen there ever been to a head smashed in buffalo site yes but but but that it's a good example because no where did that go anywhere close to exterminating the species of american bison at each site has its own particular explanation could be hunting could be a massive flood earthquake whatever the massive flood yes exactly i think their loan i would be in complete agreement that is in me by massive there's the global versus you know local so for example there's fifty two mammalian genero went extinct in south america why would they go extinct in south america about the time
that humans were moving down there nineteen of the younger dryas impact hypothesis include south america in our insights there where does an in and out again the dating of the migration of humans into south america is controversial at this point you know there is evidence humans were there long before you know paul martin's idea of blitzkrieg require set the animals be so stupid that they couldn't they they they had no adaptive capabilities to the appearance of a new predatory species but what is being demonstrated from examining the life ways of of the paleo indian peoples is that they had very diversified dietze and they were hunter gatherers um now why would they be choosing the largest most dangerous animals to hunt when they had such a
liberation of other smaller animals we know that they were forging we know that they were eating seafood or so and and fishing because all of this is being found in the in the camps and then it does certainly do and explained the extermination of you know the date the cave bears the short faced bears the camel ops the the the giant beavers the giant armadillos the american place to scene lion the the grounds laws that were the size of giraffe if some more species of proboscidean's meaning mammoths extinct on four continents and to me like wait a second we don't we cannot we cannot invoke a modern example to seduce a well here is mallory well that's she also the birds extinct in
eagle this is an assumption american humans our themselves read that in people with adam laterals killing off all the saber tooth tigers and here's another answered when your questions you're saying like why would some of the animals be alive what we know the the astrid to kill the dinosaurs sixty five million years ago didn't kill everything right right that is a massive impact far bigger than anything we're talking about in many many animals survived that so we don't so why things survive and why they don't it could be proximity to the impact it could be that their food source wasn't removed it could be that their predators were i doubt in the they manage to survive i mean there's a lot of animals that are still that are alive today in this continent like for instance the pronghorn antelope pronghorn antelope dan floor this is a wildlife historian wrote amazing book come on and we will be talking about the american savannah during you know like fifteen and plus years ago there was also it's crazy animals millie if years ago that were like cheetahs
that were running down animals at extreme speeds which is a reason why a pronghorn antelopes can run so much faster than any of their current predators something much faster than them was killing them and that was wiped out but they managed to make it one of the reasons why they probably manage to make it is because their predators were wiped out even another another point michael if it's overkill its it's it's intrigue that the overkill occurs know precisely in the younger drivers window because i think you'd agree that not the whole story of the peopling of the americas is pretty much up for grabs i mean clovis first was the dom the model for a very on time and under that model which to envisage these clovis hunters coming in the bering land bridge i'm down the ice free corridor and then like eight hundred years with their sophisticated fluted points wipe out all the mammoth in in north america but now we know that humans have been coexisting and butchering mammoths listing with mammoth for thousands of years before that possibly ten
of thousands of years before that i mean come evidence in siberia i i don't only mean from evidence in siberia i've i mean i can cite you from from nature magazine just recently huge huge number though that i don't think the yukon is in siberia is it not okay coupons in north america jack sunk mars you know the excavator bluefish caves in the yukon back in the 1970s where were proposed was proposing that human beings had been in america is at least twenty four thousand years ago his reputation was uh he destroyed his research funding was withdrawn he was given no test to grants he wasn't able to do his work he was heavily penalized and punished by the community now just a few weeks ago we have the smithsonian coming out and saying sorry we got it wrong jackson i was right all along and tom dillehay you know with his work in monte verde the ship that he had to take i think we're we're in a very interesting time the peopling of the americas is really
our time that has absolutely been overthrown i notion while you disagree with mr onie and then which is fine but i do know that a severity you know it's an ice on again it's an anomaly it's an isolated site what do you wear all the sites between clovis ten monteverdi was still first for thousands and thousands of here's come on michael do you think love is still first where all the people between clovis anmon my problem it is your problem it's not my problem by bear in monte verde and that there in north america goes towards more likely that figure why there's a dentist open tracing s american indians are not in north american indians it's like the nature paper by people across the ocean that they were nice files humans in san diego hundred and thirty thousand years ago but when you look at that okay ok so they have mammoth bones it looks like they might have been broken in the length and the tools
but they're not okay the two kind of changing subjects here though well no no no it's going to try to quibble the evidence of any human presence that's right you try to quibble it when i quit i'll tell you couldn't make it to get help you're quibbling it and you're right what i sing very specifically that's opposing what he just said the re an archaeologists don't accept earlier than i would say earlier than two thousand and four two is massively it's massively accepted say mesa verde for example i have to bring up an image it why don't they accept mesa verde do except mesa verde as it is accepted now you sure about this is what twenty four thousand years fifteen plus possibly possibly significantly significantly team is kind of the outside of the window that humans came across the bering strait that's possible not twenty open clovis first not one hundred and thirty thousand years ago now if it turns out that nature paper is right and that's confirmed but that does overturn the mainstream theory
sure but why would you this is not like your field of study well argue against any so let's let's okay i'll just give you hi that's quite an ask professional smithsonian slide five today decades later the clovis first model has collapsed ok based on dozens of new studies we now know that pre clovis peoples slow did mastodons in washington state dined on desert parsley in oregon made all purpose tools that were ice age version of the exactly thirteen thousand and eight that's not no look at those between twenty four thousand years down at the bottom michael are you saying the smithsonian a wrong on this michael jumping to conclusions before you even read that you want to be right so badly you didn't read the part in other animals they don't hold on a second confirm humans had butchered horses and other animals there twenty four thousand years ago it says it right there you are arguing against it without even reading it which means you want to be right now
that's absolutely right schooling as i have no dog in this fight why do i know that whole thing we started pointing at you include published skeptic magazine and you have no dog in the fight you're asking me why don't mainstream archaeologists accept you should i got hands about okay call it whatever you want it goes back one thousand one hundred and thirty what do you think about what that says that there's evidence butchered horses twenty four thousand years ago okay i would have to check the site and i haven't seen this article that you have seen and not my problem okay there's no evidence here opposing this and you're saying there's no evidence yet need rafting article okay i'm not opposing anything i'm saying you certainly also is the reason why scientists accept these dates here because there's lots and lots of evidence for that is signed intel's an eleven thousand twelve that is that is satisfying today's youth that you find one person that says twenty four thousand another went blank two weeks ago one person is very does in another day or you're not arguing this without really doing any research about and then and then i i i
article is titled what happens when an archaeologist challenges mainstream thinking yes as it does in the smithsonian in the month of march okay jack sunk mas it was a brutal experience something that sunk mas once like into the spanish inquisition at conferences audiences paid little heed to his presentation giving short shrift to the evidence etc etc etc so was always the same when he proposed that bluefish case twenty four thousand years old it was not accepted smithsonian are saying is now this is accepted you need to get up to speed with data mike ok my allergy friends like jared diamond who i just checked with on this who's at ucla where he said he has a dog in the fight as well he just says here's the problem for fifty years people propose pre clovis examples recites or evidence they never hold up they always the dating turned out to be incorrect the carbon fourteen was not
elevated right there was this there was that they never hold up his somewhat sensually you are yeah you'll know that for a for fifty years well you're quoting a friend who says the evidence hasn't held up before instead of quote bring these articles with these scientists were talking about the data that showing that human beings butchered horses twenty four thousand years ago year disputing it just because you talk to a friend i'm saying that that has to be confirmed that particular i argue against it i'm not arguing against certainly work no i'm just saying that this is my cry i feel you were arguing against it and saying that it's not the case and i bring it and you seem to be if i'm correct you seem to be a clovis first advocate but put your put your reputation on the line and say you advocate promise for not going to put a label on it i'm going to say in the latest evidence that overwhelmingly shows humans coming across the siberian straits into north america eleven one thousand two hundred and thirteen fourteen fifteen thousand years
definitely did then they definitely had then now what do they before what could push it back much earlier it would be if they came by boat okay so like where i live in santa barbara their sights on the channel islands data go back eleven twelve thousand years ago and they can by boat now the problem is is well if they lived on the shores which is where the good fishing and eating is those are under water and in short of doing good underwater archaeology which is hard to do an expensive and most of its probably gun we may never know it's one of base without khilji actually is that ten million square miles of the planet that were above water during the ice age are under water now and marine archaeology still mainly looking at ship ranks you know well it okay they do that because it's it's the it's like it's where the light in my lease big unanswered question at any rate sought fought for the record to come at least say that you completely opposed the smithsonian's position on this that i has been known hard i shot a look at this i haven't seen this all right i'm not aware of the horse fine from twenty four
thousand years ago i am aware the hundred thirty thousand your date from the nature paper yeah i have a site on that too and it can't and if okay but it wasn't your circulation tools they're nothing like clovis points it's just a big like hand rock that might have been used it might have been random sorry a big hand rock is all there is before thirteen thousand years ago no i'm talking about one hundred and thirty thousand year old son one hundred thousand miles by the san diego where we don't need to talk about that well that raises interesting questions was it neanderthals was it denisovans was it anna formally modern humans one hundred and thirty thousand years it raises interesting questions about this interpreted site because they aren't don't i'm not kidding i'm not putting anything to that yes i i'm i'm saying yes that question was released in the us about the stone tools it's about how the bones were shattered and they believe the bones are shattered deliberately indicating that someone's trying to get out the marrow indicating more maybe or a tractor rolled over it
you know a couple of years no no no no no no no no no no one no one is this excavated that's just speculation immediately this my part this was one of the immediately defined has been quibbled by the archaeological mainstream of course it's been published by the archaeological mainstream too and the rest of the mainstream is quivering so we'll see how that plays out so that can't happen we will say what can happen that the mainstream won't allow radical ideas to nature published it and they ought to get the idea is being quibbled i am here to seventy eight really it's okay nature certainly would not have published it if the evidence would not strong i accept that nature is not in the business of publishing you know three g stuff it's a it is it is a radical proposal but it's strong enough to to justify publication in nature what's interesting to me is that the immediate reaction of the oculus committees don't say well what could this mean let's let's look into the implications of this i mean if there were neanderthals or denisovans in north erica one hundred and thirty thousand years ago we
a whole new scenario building here that really should interest everyone instead of instead of the first reaction is let's destroy with this because it's really annoying let's get rid of it let's prove it's wrong let's suggest that it was a fucking bulldozer or something like that maybe it was i don't know the work hasn't been hasn't been done yet but that instant sort of it's almost like an immune response to a idea that doesn't fit into the prevailing paradigm but the other work the work in south america the blue fish case work that's really not control actual anymore that's very wide really accepted clovis first is a discredited and abandoned position and i have some else to ask you actually considering genetics and dna i'm sure you're well up on that i mean can explain why we have a strong signal of dennis even dna in certain groups of south american indians and straight in aborigines and and melanie c ends but that that that is seventy an eight day some crop up in north american indians how would we explain that if they
came through the bering strait i have no idea what it could be both so i mean this just happens to be something i don't know anything about ok so part of the problem even doing this is that was your idea well here we are talking this is good but part of the risk is that you find something i don't happen to know about and then it's like you see i made my point what point that okay so it in like the history of the people in america that that area there's always somebody that comes in with it's you know not well this is this is that and rarely do they last why the dates were miss calibrated or whatever it's not just that scientists are close minded although they can be it's that the convergence of evidence isn't strong enough to overturn the mainstream terry so but it does happen uh maybe there are multiple migrations into north america and we just
have all the sites but when somebody comes up with a site like that tens of thousands of years earlier than all the others that are accepted here and it's over here where all the sites in between where is that it is like to get the five thousand year gap with the egyptian complex where are the sites if it's true we didn't fly there so how to get there well here and there must be a trail you know somewhere that we could find and less they came by boat and then that's evidence is part and less you're dealing with twenty four thousand years ago and there's not much evidence to find that navy they came by boat in that clearly implies they had navigational skills they had the ability to build both stand and find your way across the ocean and they got into it you can do the coast that's not quite as you don't need a big shingling but you don't need an ocean going but there's also a part of this is that that you know that's proposes that they came across by by boat
just following the shore use the same areas the bering strait yeah you just a hundred feet off shore you right and and and and most likely both right and one of the issues of course was the short faced bear with so formidable according to dan floor or is that it would have been a huge impediment for people crossing on foot anyway and the short faced bear went extinct right around the time we see more evidence of human beings entering in but why did it go extinct that's the big question would you have to add that to the list of predators that there would have been no reason for humans to have been hunt yeah the norm is enormous animal so the certitude two factors that go on here there is positive evidence in favor of a hypothesis then there's negative and so against the mainstream five offices and you really need both so it's not enough to just say i don't accept the evidence for here that okay that's fine and scientists do that all the time evidence what do you what let's play let's be speaking specific cuz you keep doing this you keep saying well
find things and it turns out no that's not true when you're essentially like proving your point of being a skeptic without having any real cases well you just keep saying this is the case is it but now you're not saying you can't say all the cases if you don't want to cite anything specifically don't keep bringing up things that are refuted because you don't have anything that you're pointing to so muddying the water okay you're simply placing in the pool none of the clovis thing for example go back lee tapi the pyramids all of these what's been disproved no okay making a difference let a different point that's the problem that is that you're not addressing the actual issues we're talking about you mud the water by saying things have been tossed out the window so we have to careful here and toss these things out the window as well not toss out just contemplate them published in nature for example some let's watch what happens to the hundred thirty thousand year old hypothesis if it if it holds up and there's other sites that are dated that way and so on and so forth and that will be
truly revolutionary and scientists would accept okay well i see the problem is that when you have a very strong paradigm like close his face which really dominates american archaeology prehistoric archaeology for for a long period it's difficult it's difficult from a career point of view for a kill just to come up a proposal to live sites those who did like tom dillehay let like jack sank mars paid a very heavy price for so doing so the incentive to go looking for older stuff than clovis is extremely low in the archaeological community as a result this ferocious reaction that went on for thirty or forty or even fifty years is you know i mean can also consider the lc kilo excavations in mexico where there the suggestion if you use some sort of human presence two hundred and thirty thousand years ago i mean that good are killed you but it was dismissed in the archaeologists involved where were ruined for getting involved in it's hard to see how that's a profession that encourages people to think outside the box
when careers get ruined and research funding gets withdrawn for an idea that doesn't fit the current mainstream hypothesis we don't like to think that that scientists do that they do that are you familiar with michalke ramos book didn't rkl i i know michael yeah okay so now and he makes in my mind as compelling to cases you do and for his humans were here tens of millions of years ago a and that you know his book is him nine hundred pages long 10s of millions yet tens of millions ok and he's a hindu so his ideas you know this sort of long recycling and but what evidence is it based on for 10s of millions of years i'm not here to defend michael creamer or to have a disk in about michael cremo that's not i'm sitting at this table but my point is that michael cream
it's not me it's right so but there's lots of alternative archaeology with where i began there's lots of alternative archaeology books and right but evidence is there to support that none so why are you bringing up that when there's evidence that he's bringing up creno's evidence is similar to his well mostly negative evidence that i don't accept the data this there is this peculiar sort of print looking thing in the mud kramer recess unicef eckley to the knowledge filter the most useful thing about that book is the publication of reports archaeological reports which are no longer available to the public which which do suggest an alternative but i'd say it's a very useful book to read beyond that i have i think to say that right yeah but that's not necessarily true you sing his only evidence you mean he's from was pointing to like some pretty significant evidence like this fix thing is is a geologist from boston university proposed this does water erosion because of water erosion that could have only been done by thousands of years of rainfall in his opinion as a
as a qualified younger right and that's not a lack of evidence i understand but why do no no other rkl geologists or kill their arms others no i was not true actually they do and i've had multiple conversations with rob where he is cited the fact that he has gotten a considerable body of support from other geologists not from egyptologist but from geologists who do recognize the effects of severe water erosion on limestone carbonate rocks and that's what we have there having severe water erosion it appears and is preserved on the quarry walls around the sphinx the sinks itself is graham said is difficult to ascertain because of all of the reconstruction that has gone on but the quarry walls which would once had the very distinct stepped profile of a typical quarry
no longer have that i mean they have now they have a textbook profile parabolic profile that would be consistent with sheet flooding which would be both dissolution because carbonate rocks dissolve and um acidic waters and what's called corrasion which was be the effects of water loaded with sand sediment which would make it very rough so if you've got the sand sediment flowing over the edge of what would have been a quarry wall what you're going to end up with is a smoothing off of the rough corners and the final result would be a a very rounded profile like you see there and you would also see where the fish others in the rock would be typically widened and open by the water penetrating knows fishers i mean it has all the earmarks of a very textbook case
water erosion don't you think it's very disingenuous comparing that to someone who thinks that human beings have been here for 10s of millions of years with no evidence to support it whatsoever he doesn't say of course he doesn't say he has no evidence he has a nine hundred page book full of evidence it's the quality of the evidence what about a quality that evidence it it's a good okay if it was that good you know we're not geologist sitting here if is that good why don't yell at so getting up he's right but the one that you're not listening do they all do no they don't hold on to someone else is who some geologists who work with egyptologists say that shock is wrong we have a geologist on the line when we ask mark will we can have one dies a pay and we can also have other guys opinions that we can get this matter has been in been in one hundred domain since nineteen ninety two it hasn't gone away yeah i'm argument that we are looking at precipitation and choose whether in on the sphinx has not been debunked it has been a post it is being disagreed with but that is different from
saying it's debunked and shock stays solid and strong on that issue here is a credential geologist he is a professor of geology at the university of boston he has a right speak out about this and he stayed his view i happen to find him a few very interesting especially since it it correlates with what i regard as the interesting astronomy of the site i think that site has origins that do go back into the younger dryas that's my opinion stated it many times and i've presented the evidence that i think on right side opinion you colleagues are absolutely at liberty to disagree and you do you don't think it's disingenuous to compare that to someone who says something that defies our current understanding of human beings and the did the actual evolution of humans okay your talk came out someone who's saying that human beings how many millions of years old 10s of millions 10s of bills
well we know for a fact right as far if you pay attention evolution right but that's what we weren't even humans so million years ago correct i mean there are creationists who think we're not talking about them were talking about grand hanger i know but my point was that so here you have the mainstream scientists and so it's like there's gram he seemed so reasonable but there's fifty like him and each of them thinks that they're they're right they're not there's your language he seems so reasonable you're you're right there are you kidding me of dissimulation what i liked the subject is the i'm not and then there's fifty like me uses much hydrolyzing arrogant i don't mean deeply unpleasant and personal approach ram i'm sorry i didn't mean it to sound like that i really don't okay okay i have a larger
that was accepted yeah that it when you're faced with a bunch of different alternative theories that are coming and it's not take take take physics i mean every physicist like he does have lawrence krauss he gets these letters daily of people saying i think i figured out why einstein was wrong and he can't address the mall and then they're smart people they're thoughtful people i really believe it what do you do with that that's my point and i feel that's not my problem and if there are tentative c l other real tend if there is that's not my problem either it's a problem for the mainstream to sort it out and figure we pay attention to in which all right i'm suspicious of this the whole idea of the mainstream because even working in the mainstream you find so many divergent points of view that you know i think that's basically a fiction that where is this mainstream that has arrived at this consensus an that there are no alternative interior motives there and that there are no dogmas that
are being perpetuated there you know what i mean i look the lot of the geological staff and and realize that there are many different points of view when we get to talk about the these floods at the end of the last ice age there are many divergent points of view there is what could be considered the mainstream yet even that has multiple interpretations and the same with this the the comet idea you know i mean i don't know what constitutes the mainstream there because there have been a group that has opposed it at every turn but at the same time the group that accepts the comet hyppa this is his to grow in fact there's even a number of individual it's involved that set out specifically to disprove it or discredited who are now basically on board and it has grown from being a small hand full of scientists that are now sixty three scientists from fifty five different institute
things that are on board with the idea that something remarkable happened at the end of the last ice age it was probably x jannock meaning something from outside um something from space there's no consensus as to exactly what that was which would be normal because it these discoveries are in in their infancy at this point but there's been an attempt credit the idea simply because that as the evidence has come in over the last decade it has evolved in do mysteries have been opened up as the ever comes in and the claim is being made well there's no consistent interpretation seven amps and therefore we've debunked it example is pinter's requiem pinterest yeah dalton requiem for the dry ice impact hypothesis i mean the publisher paper or in pnas saying requiem suggesting the impact hypothesis already dead that was in two thousand and eleven every single one of pinter's points have been responded to those who are crit
all of the younger dryas impact hypothesis rarely cite the fact that the so called refutations have themselves been refuted that new information is constantly coming in i see uh a one sided game being played here with a group of academics who are determined to demo straight that they could have be no possibility of anything like a comet impact twelve thousand eight hundred years ago and that the sixties three or sixty five scientists who are proposing that i just completely wrong and when they refute the refutations i very rarely see though about that referred to a committed upon a toll again your your colleague dead dead dead defense has that you did dismiss the younger dryas impact hypothesis without actually going detail into the debate that's gone he has this graph in his paper showing all these different dates for these does from of the critical papers you know there's another side to this argument so you needs to be he needs to be listening to what the other side would say well that's the point where maybe we should have not come on and maybe we should have a
come on as well because markham account is actually one of those sixty three younger dryas in hindsight yes what is that would explain to people that are just listening to this what is this graph that you're showing well this is the carbon fourteen date ranges from samples taken from the younger dryas boundaries so this is the boundary here and the point of this is that there's not a single consistent series of dates that would consistently show yet absolutely for short every side comes in right there is that they bounce around a lot here so maybe mark this is you know his area he could come on in skype irritate outs around and what's the what's the point of this for the lay person is listening to this well so if you take the ones that above the gray line than those were those are showing that something like an impact happened much earlier much later and the ones below it that it's you know much earlier so where is the consistency of
a single impact consistent across that middle of that i don't think there's any argument there was a a single impacting factors there's arguments that there's no there's more than one date we're talking about a stretch of thousands of years and more slender young runs one thousand two hundred years randall please to please give me your because you're the expert at this well are dates for the younger drias there's a big spread obviously but there's also a lot of possibilities for introducing in accuracies into the dating the what's called the old would effect can sometimes make make it appear to be older than it is by a millennium or two millennium but what we certainly do see here as a clustering right around thirteen thousand years ago that looks pretty evident to maine and everybody knows who radiocarbon dating that the dating might have errors and inconsistencies in it the one article i think that came out last year by james kennett and twenty five others was the by age
in chronological analysis consistent with synchronous age of twelve thousand eight hundred and thirty five to twelve thousand seven hundred and thirty five cal braided years before present for younger it's boundary on four continents that's a reputation of see what you think it is it's a refutation of the last modified does not refer to that reputation jamie could you pull up the age of leo i think i gave that to you and go to slide now her one hundred and sixty seven wow one hundred and sixty seven and that refers to the go to go one hundred and sixty seven jesus you're not fucking around one hundred and sixty seven slides there we go here we go
cosmic impact event at twelve thousand eight hundred calibrated years before present form the younger dryas boundary layer containing peak abundances in multiple high temperature impact related proxies including spherules milk glass and nano nanodiamond asian statistical analysis of three hundred and fifty four dates from twenty three sedimentary sequences over four continents established the younger dryas boundary age of twelve thousand eight hundred and thirty five calibrated years before present supporting synchrony idea of the younger dryas boundary layer at high probability ninety five percent this range overlaps that of a platinum peak recorded greenland ice sheet and of the onset of the younger dryas climate episode in six key records suggesting a causal connection between you and the younger dryas due to its rarity and distinctive characteristic younger dryas boundary layers proposed as a widespread correlation datum and randy
but if i can remember what you said correctly you believe that there was probably more than one significant impact over a period of several one thousand years let me let me pop in on that very very quickly i don't mean to cut you off go ahead but the let's be clear the suggestion is that twelve thousand eight hundred years ago there comets break up into multiple parts i mean anybody who saw the shoemaker levy nine nasa films back in ninety ninety four is aware that that comet broke up into more than twenty fragments all of which hit jupiter sometimes creating explosions larger than the earth itself right so i don't think it's controversial that comets break up into fragments and this is the suggestion of the younger dryas impact hypothesis that we're dealing with a giant comet that broke up into multiple fragments that orbits in the taurid meteor stream and that more of those fragments that's the suggestion for largest fragments fell out of torrid meteor stream coming in trajectory roughly northwest to se crossing the north
i can ice cap and they're they're up up to four impact on the north american ice cap the the the the the impact is then continue across the atlantic ocean there's ocean of impact in belgium and and indeed as far east as herrera in in in syria it's a it's a global event fifty million square kilometers yes surfaces is within andrea's boundary field really this thing so the suggestion is that there were multiple impacts at the beginning now the this question is what happened eleven thousand six hundred years ago when the younger dryas ends and global temperatures shoot up incredibly rapidly in the science on that is much less again since then the science on the beginning of the younger dryas fred hoyle back in the nineteen 80s was puzzled by the sudden temperature increase at the end of the younger dryas and he suggested presently i would say that this may have been caused by a comet impact in an ocean so maybe other bits of the taurid meteor stream impacted the earth
the filaments within the stream impacted the earth eleven two thousand six hundred years ago or maybe something else caused it i mean robert shark is in favor of extraordinary solar activity being rich well for that woman we don't absolutely no but that that's broadly the suggest with the beginning and the end is certainly in place at the beginning possibly impacts of or other things at the at the at here and others duncan steel and other astronomers have speculated that there could be impact eras epochs in which there is an enhanced possibility of the earth being impacted particularly if you have a large comet that enters into the solar system begins go hierarchy of disintegrations and basically litters the inner so system with material and we do know that the earth crosses the taurid meteor stream twice each year once and june and once in late october early november and we know that the tongue goska
out of one thousand nine hundred and eight which is not speculative i mean that happened it occured on june 30th would have been the peak of the torrid meteor shower it also came from the direction of the sun it it's position in space word emanate its radiant point in space from which it emanated at that time was totally consistent with the torrid your stream radiant so it's very possible that the turn goska event of one thousand nine hundred and eight is a member of that family of meteorites and so you know that would be again we don't there's no nothing definitive but it would be a prime candidate for investigation that perhaps and again mentioned earlier this goes back to the work of fred whipple way back in the 1940s who began to come search the tarde meteor stream and came to believe that it was much much more active in in the past than it is now
but it's an old diffuse meteor stream that at one time like graham said you know it's it has multiple objects il within it coming ten key is the best known i meant that's a fragment of the original john of the original giant comet that the estimate might have been based upon the out of material still remnant and the sodia chal light cloud that perhaps it was somewhere around sixty miles or one hundred kilometres in diameter another thing that i'm that i'm taken to task for is that i report the work of kluber napier and their suggestion that the taurid meteor stream is actually fucking dangerous and that we should be paying attention to it that it has had been a hidden hand in human history in the past and that it can cause us in the future now this is not gloom and do we have the technology to deal with the large object the taurid meteor stream with any filaments are on earth that will result in impacts on there at the very least
it's extremely unwise of us not to pay attention i'm accused of being served do munger and constantly predicting the end of the world and this and that but actually i'm simply report astronomers who very concerned about the taurid meteor stream and the possibility that we may face further impacts from it the future that's not woo woo that is science you know absolutely and i would agree with that and that and that is a form of catastrofe ism that scientists accept as the very real well lots i mean there's you know what if anything do you oppose about what they've just said nothing nothing nothing about younger people so i just a technical question you had your slide was twelve thousand eight hundred on there and so beckley tepley the oldest c fourteen dates or nine thousand seven hundred eleven thousand alright so that's twelve year gap exactly testing catastrophe no no go beckley tempe we be very clear about
the younger dryas one of the puzzling things about it is that you have cataclysm at the beginning and this glow temperature slump is surely cataclysmic by any standards and you have cataclysm at the end you have the massive spike a huge increase in global temperatures and you have not what to post when they you have a lot of water going into the ocean at that time so both ends of the dry a cataclysmic and it's at the recent end of the younger dryas eleven thousand six hundred years ago that we see about klay tepi misty lee popping but i know that you're a staunch opponent lantis and that you believe plato made atlantis up in order to make a political point and you may be right but the date that plato puts the submergence of atlantis is eleven thousand six hundred years ago nine thousand years before the time of soul on which happens to cohens i'd with not one house one baby at the end of good rice which i would have thought would cause
you to rethink your position on plato just a little it's interesting i'm open to the idea i tend to read myths in in the same way your guest during peterson does that you know it's a story to deliver some sort of moral homalea too is it's a common to ariana rose culture or society it's a way a literary way of delivering a message to people if that's how i tend to read instead of reading them like let's see if we can figure out what happened quickly but there's hard data there's hard data in plato's whatever you think it is and that data is data is that the submergence of atlantis happened nine thousand years before the time of solon that is a date that is five thousand six hundred bc that is eleven thousand six hundred years ago this to me is
one reason why we shouldn't just completely dismissed plato's notion of a lost civilization of the i'm not against that idea i mean the idea that say the parting of the red sea happen because of some impact that's not what i'm not promising that we don't go there i'm not a waste of time okay but but there are people that think that i don't okay or or that the plagues of the bible can be kind of guy that i waste of time but don't deal with plato all right so but my point is that some of them may have historical origins some of them may be completely made up this mythic stories for some other reason yes take him one at a time in my opinion the plato one is a commentary on his own culture of athens and being too bellicose being to war like in that this is not good for where we're going that's my opinion and the dates the tact that he pics a date that coincides with the geologically significant date of flooding it is not really going to change your opinion i think well i think again that's pretty amazing coincidence is it i mean we're fine yeah action not play doh i mean
plato said there was an advanced civilization with advanced agriculture advanced architecture advanced navigational abilities which was submerged by the sea swept from the face of the earth so that mankind had to begin again like children no memory of what went before and lo and behold he puts a geologically significant date on a date that we ourselves have only known is significant in the last twenty or thirty years so where is this place this atlantis i mean say as you know there's a one problem there's a long history of people speculating if we found a site that would be a big plus go do more marine archaeology well if we if we take it literally obviously that it's below the ocean but i you know i i don't necessarily take plato's account literally but i do say well it's rather coincidental that he had his dating falls exact on meltwater pulse one b when we know there was huge influx of
water into the ocean and also if we look at the his geography is it's interesting because he cites you know basically a landmass west of the pillars of heracles which is pillars of her the straits of gibraltar and he plays is this an essentially in the mid atlantic i think it was plant or one of the comp that the commentators on him that said it was something like three or four days sale west but if you there there is a sunken landmass that i think at the end of the last ice age because of the rapidly rising sea level and this has been well established by marine geology looking at evidence that that the resource plateau underwent an isostatic subsidence which would have been resulting from the early rising sea level we know there's no doubt that the north american continent has rebounded isis statically after the removal of this trip
this mass of ice that that mantle north america up to anywhere from a thousand to possibly one thousand five hundred feet well if you if you do a compare isostatic adjustment of the mid atlantic ridge you'll find at the azores island complex are much much larger and it turns out that that might actually be a nice place to develop at least a maritime culture something along the lines of the phoenicians are the minoans during the period of the ice age because during the period of the ice age the climate of the world was so much different than now you know the great basin area was filled with huge lakes asian forest savannah and grasslands migraine said come with the lowered sea level they were much larger area the coastline there were exposed probably where most of but we're as i did during the ice age is near the coast lines because that would have been the most benevolent place we
rising of the sea level all that's lost lawston there's nothing really french about saying well people might have lived on islands atlantic especially when we know that the that those islands most likely had a benevolent climate during the ice age so i don't go into crystal still be in flying machines or whatever all of this speculative stuff that has created to it but if we just keep it simple and say well is it pos build a culture along the lines of the minoans are the free nations could have existed could they have existed on and one culture in the mid atlantic and there's nothing really x no extreme about that idea in my even the idea that a more advanced sophisticated technological quasi technological culture coexisted with hunter gatherers
isn't too strange i mean we we we at century do so today we could exist without the gathers ramzan junglee don't even know we you know we exist i mean so i i don't see i don't see why a priority that's just an impossible idea to live by miss remembering that you in your book you mentioned indonesia is a site for atlantis i meant i mention good input on not as a site for atlantis that's danny hillman not to judge who is a geologist easy into these is leading expected megathrust earthquakes as a matter of fact he has written a book proposing that indonesia was atlantis and that's a good notepad on which he's been involved in investigating is a site at from atlanta in x danny has danny has proposed that now what interesting about indonesia is that indonesia sits upon the student a shelf and the sunda shelf was one of the parts of the world was most massively flooded at the end of the ice age if you go back to the end of the i said you're not looking at the malaysian peninsula you're not look
at the indonesian islands out going out towards the philippines you're looking at a giant size land mask all of which went the underwater at the end of the last ice age really rather rapidly so i think he has i think it's an interesting it's it's one of those areas in the world where that was very large scale flooding huge amounts of land was swallowed up also so hell the connection australia to new guinea during the age was also washed away there's there's there's a in a whole range of of issues regarding sea level rise in that very area which anybody with an interest in the subject should be paying attention to so it's quite possible that law like today many of the advanced civilizations of today are on the water whether it's new york or los angeles and that was probably the case back then and so the idea of atlanta is might not have been about one particular area but many advanced areas that were wiped out along with their knowledge
what is it with the rice is that look i mentioned i was a flood that the the two geologist with the black sea the theory that there were you know was the ram to with so small villages and you know it the massive flooding almost instantly wiped out and then that gets passed down as you know the oral tradition is the myths to me that seems totally reasonable yeah going into more discussion about the actual impact hypothesis and mega flooding so that we can get our i can't stand by getting involved for geologists your geologists you're by yourself and there's two of them what is only fair what is or geologist opposed to randall and graham are proposing i think it's the on the impact hypothesis versus the multiple glacial dams that burst over periods of time like that
i had that slide okay what's called him up and get him on as guide and we've never done this before users might suck well hopefully to worry this this slide here he is showing these are each independent carbon fourteen dates of these different instead flood in north america right from in it each individual i stand and what separates these dates there separated by well looks like from twenty thousand to twelve thousand so all before the impact well twelve thousand eight hundred was not large all yes are great restaurants at marks on the line what is this mark would mark can you hear us yes i can hear you mark the fact mark thank you very much for doing this we really appreciate you coming on here my pleasure i
you had a chance to listen to these guys talk what what is your thoughts just stepping into this cold well first of all i did not mean to upset mr handcock we seem to be quite disturbing on one apologizes not disturb to not are you having the state you have is this day of me and i'm not i'm not upset it it's just simply that you're extremely selective in what you present in your in your draft admittedly draft article that you've chosen to put online you don't represent you don't represent me accurately an answer his question 'cause i know we're getting no no no we have plenty of time we have plenty of time ok well first of all could i would you allow me just to address a go beckley tempe for a minute sure would you like to address the article first i think that probably would be most fair since we just brought that up okay i'm sorry what was the question graham well i i read out on their various
which is in your article where you misrepresent me no i did sorry no i didn't read misrepresent you do didn't misrepresent me okay so you said that i that i said that that i was actually talking someone in indonesia when i said you didn't understand newtons physics you know i didn't say i do sorry i didn't say i didn't say you were talking about someone in indonesia i said you were talking about hey sir hey susan name again hey suse camara in in peru is who i was talking about jesus kumara does have very exotic views on gravitation which i state seriously are not my interest i do say he may be right but don't say he's right i say this is not my interest and i got to say what my interest in this is work pick up that you're drowning me out here i was asking playing whether or not i thought i was misleading
an i don't think i was misleading you clearly stayed in there that maybe gravity was due to the way we've changed orbits around the sun gravity is not due to that it's due to doug state that mass and the inverse of what do you mean i don't stay that jesus kumara states that an i say i disagree with it oh come on i said i disagree with it would be i want to be respectful i can't really hear you when i'm talking i apologize but i feel like you are selecting electively changing the meaning of what i'm saying why don't you why don't you quote me as these words from my text when you say that i'd buy the gravity thing of jesus kumara whi don't you let me when i say hold on this is that the offices what i go on to say not quoted in the attack is the following quote however this isn't that part of his theory i'm interested in where
i feel he is solidly persuasive is in his observations of the anomalous character of the monuments of the andes i am and anything on jesus seuss occasional ideas thank you very clearly what it is in his approach that i interested in i'm not going to dismiss all of his approach because he has an approach on gravity that you don't like that's not even of interest to me and i say so in the book you don't report that therefore i yes you misrepresent lee well at least you're handcuffed i brought up him floor was simply to state that didn't understand and i say it right there don't understand newtons physics but i'm not even talking about you can see so i'm not talking about if you don't understand hi i'm not newt
if i if i wished if i wish to make an argument about gravity i wouldn't go saying that that isn't the part of hay seuss camara's theory the i'm interested in i'm interested in the other aspect of his work his old vacations through years of appeals away my point was simply to point out that you didn't understand the mechanics at this time everybody dies down time graham we don't know the way the article is hold on a second hold on and let these guys talking we did this represented we did yeah the way the sentences structured it's clearly out of context we were check we're going to change that yeah i was taken out of context and that's what i'm object mark i i'm not sure why he included in the book in the first place but he's not arguing about the gravity at all so we will fix that may maybe we can get straight to the flooding thing that as that as i was talking about gram is fine with that i mean graham i know there was something else on the other the other thing that i find to be misrepresenting is that statement yet hancock makes the following
stunning claim quote our ancestors are being initiated into the secrets of metals and how to make so it's a knives what mark the fat does not tell his readers is that i make that claim i don't make that claim i am actually reporting what is said in the book of enoch that's me who say we will book of enoch ram will fix that okay otherwise let's get let's back to the main needed this for god sake ok just give me the list of things that and i'll fix it will fix it but that's not the point of that well mark you're obviously very critical of graham's work and maybe aronie asli so but let's let's get to what you think about what you've heard so far all right mister rogan of all right i don't want to come across as a as a pompous scientists what i want to do is i want to protect people from the
grandiose assumptions his first mister hancock in his first book please call me gram please call me gram ok graham in his first book in fingerprints suggested that there was a a continent the civilization lived and through some imaginations this continent went south and ended destroying that civilization will as a geologist that that's just that's just nonsense and now he comes back and he wants us to believe that he was all wrong and then all of a sudden it's ok now to believe in common strikes so i'm sure this this famous civilizations not supposed to exist so mark mark if he means mark he seems to be doing mark all my work is in on line online i mean i see that i gather that you see your role as a protector for the public obviously you feel that the public are not intelligent enough to
descending decisions of their own in this aspect however to address saying that the public doesn't understand the science ok so this is the degree that you're missing so they need the superior knowledge of mark defense in order to understand it will find they need a knowledge of science ok well that's ok knowledge that i have let me come to your point which is you're saying that i proposed one mechanism for cataclysm in fingerprints of the gods and that proposing another mechanism for cataclysm today what i proposed in fingerprints of the gods was that there had been a gigantic cataclysm in the ballpark of twelve thousand five hundred years ago i looked at a number of post so of which the most striking to me at the time was earth crust displacement on earth crust displacement is reported as the work of charles hapgood not my work but i do reported it prince of the gods as an excellent theory which explains the information since i wrote fingerprints of the gods i've learned a lot
it's a lot of i wouldn't want to defend that theory strongly today i don't know if you have bought the latest edition of my book the the paperback edition of magicians of the gods but it contains and saying whatever happened to earth crust displacement i address the change of view in this and i think i have a right to change my view and i think it's it's healthy i mean why would i stick permana only two of you that i hold in one thousand nine hundred and ninety five if new evidence persuades me that it's wrong i'm sure that's a good thing not a bad thing uh i'm fun metal proposition is we had a massive global cataclysm in the ballpark of twelve five hundred years ago so naturally it's of great interest to me when a large group of scientists more than sixty of them over a period more than ten years now present evidence of a massive committed impact event twelve thousand eight hundred years ago exactly in the window i propose you are applying that there are a lot of people out to do believe in this there are there are some people believe in it i agree but for the most part i think
taking an honest view the common hypothesis has gotten to bump well that's complete rubbish mark that's complete rubbish also point out that in fingerprints you had people believing that the end of the world was coming in twenty twelve now how my supposed to take you seriously when you say things like that and then change your mind and we could all be dead by now i have a the changed my mind on the mayan calendar i regard mind mayan calendar is an interesting technological artifact with a better estimate of the length of the solar year than the estimate that we have with today the colin calendar is based primarily on the position of the sun amongst the constellations at the winter solstice and we are in eighty year window when the sun sits astride the dark rift of the milky way between the constellations of sagittarius and scorpio on
winter solstice that window is eighty years wide so the story of the mind counted by the way isn't actually quite over yet but i'm not i'm not means yes i know exactly what procession means ok well all of this stuff that you claim is on a procession a procession is the is the earth spin like a top don't teach grandma to suck with running through comic clouds you're saying that somehow were on some sort of cycle where the comments are going to come back and strike the earth right now sometime during the next forty years that's what you said a magician's now that's what that's what that's what big to clue been bill napier and emilio spend cotto say i'm a news you're the one who said and i make mr sure michael shermer for
first saying the same things about other people i want to know what you think but market i mean what you say i i'm a reporter and i make it very clear might be finished talking to mark son mark we got it we can't talk over each other i am a reporter and it is my job to report the work of other people and i report the work of victor clube bill napier and emily spend a all of whom drawing attention to the taurid meteor stream and who regarded as the greatest collision has facing the earth at this time and who specif play indicate that we may run into a filament of the taurid meteor stream in the next thirty years that is going to be very ad for our civilization is not my thing to do is proceed isn't a session went when did i say it had anything to do with procession you have also it's not because she has such an magicians indeed as a clock as a timer as a way of going back through the ages but i'm not saying procession is causing this encounter with the toward media streaming you go find the part
graph i say that know know know what you're saying is that we're on a cycle that twelve thousand two years ago this civilization is destroyed and now you're saying oh that civilization was so smart that they knew we were going to go through another shower and we're all doomed in the next forty years yeah i didn't say doomed in in magicians like you did and fingerprints but we we must conclude that that's your opinion because i don't know anybody else that you reference on that issue well our station has nothing to do with that i it's not even on that cycle i never saw cycle of about about twenty one thousand years twenty five cycles are twenty eight per session twenty five thousand nine hundred and twenty years actually it's not for possession one degree every seventy two years give or take a small margin that is the procession you really you really teaching right out of sight gags here so anyway well i i i i get it's been going on all day you can't criticize michael for bringing
other people that are saying strange things in comparing to even say oh no you can't say that 'cause it's it's not about me it's not true here so in the same thing you're reporting about other people and saying nonsense yeah i'm i'm reporting the work of victor clue bill napier and me spyderco to and i also i also indicate that i strongly support that work that's as far i got mark is very if i could stop you hear you so you think that this comment wiping out all the ice age megafauna theory has been debunked is that what you're saying no sir i have not saying that what he thinks that if you read the literature carefully the jordanian of right now and i know that this is still and you know what i like about the comet people is that they're doing it in the scientifically right way they're getting people to review the material they're getting people to go through that gauntlet to where the criticize they make sure that they do things right and they get it out there
just do this in two thousand seven he was crucified he's come back with his his group is come back with a lot of good stuff so i want i didn't see this play it play out i said that in my paper that we're going to have to wait to get a conclusion here so i'm not saying that the wrong but right now if i read the literature as a scientist i have to say that the comment guys are are are getting hit what do you take what do you make of the latest platinum paper in nature scientific reports the platinum anomaly across north america and it's coincident in time with the greenland ice cores on the platinum anomaly that what do you say to that well i say and maybe we can bring him on the problem with that is is that what does platinum have to do with the common you know platinum sir high in astros but they're not high in comments comments are icy bodies i saw the paper i read it i think it's interesting but i i can't for the life of me figure out but how is correlating it he has in the different areas of the club as he has platinum concentrate
things that are that are seemingly not matching up there outside the younger dryas so the younger driest i'd like to i'd like you to show them let's bring less less brain must come to understand what he's trying to say let's bring it doesn't refute the common hypothesis let's bring malcolm on since he's one of the co authors of the platinum paper this is going to get super complicated let's try one at a time we can only do one caller time apparently well i think my mom can you know should should should have his voice i want to criticize him if you can't be here that's okay my market is he can be here a little bit if i may about go go back to tempe because i've read schmidt i know that she made no ever found anything to suggest that there anything in the early part of go back to that that were not hundred the others they all were hunter gathers you know he found twenty i think
may be wrong on this but i think he found twenty two thousand stone tools there when he dug that so i'm not disputing that any domesticated animals he never found any domesticated grain he found tons of bones of animals so we know that about one hundred to two hundred people were probably working on go beckley tempe at one time and they were fed by wild animals and grain so there's no reason to go out on a limb here and say that some magical civilization amen and by the way that's another thing that drives me crazy you're saying these guys were magicians you're saying that they had secret knowledge what possible secret knowledge they give to the people how can you again i'm not saying that the word magicians of the gods comes from the apkallu in consumer and they
considered to have superior powers than they were considered to be magicians of a sort i'm i should i not report that because it's there in this case you should tell us what michael's been asking all day is what were their super powers i'm not saying that they have superpowers this the cimmerians who said that i simply report that you can regard as a cop out if you like but i am a reporter would you since the guy because that's the direct implication of the app called they were the magicians of the gods like you're saying they had magical powers to maine no i'm i think that they were the magicians of the gods as they were called in an ancient culture that's all i'm saying i want your audience to know that schmidt who worked there for twenty years that had didn't go there for two days and look around take some notes and leaving and write a book on it he worked there for twenty years and he found date with dates and everything he found that there were hundreds is there building those megaliths i don't dislike you want it if you want to easter island can i see you found the demo i an
oh my gosh there must have been some secret civilization that made these moi because stupid hunter gatherers couldn't possibly make this what we know that there were no special people on easter island it had to be by hunter gatherers why would you poo poo sorry are you saying i have to call it so i use i use is zero are you seriously saying that the inhabitants of easter island were hunter gatherers well absolutely and if effect we saw not little island off the pacific ocean they had no agriculture are you saying that the pacific ocean until about thousand years ago on hold on hold on a second one thousand what do you think that hold on a second big civilization mark please let him respond go ahead well first have you met cloud did you meet clashing do you know improve well you know he's dead and he know that i haven't met him ok well i did meet him i do know him personally i did record i did record my interviews with him with his agreement
and and what he states clean i don't disagree with you that the people around go back to tempe will hunt together is when go back to tempe was started what cisely intrigued cloud smith was the his phrase not mine that go back happy was a center of innovation when you ideas what deliberately seeded and spread out in the population i have klaus schmidt on record saying that i can note him saying that in my book and that to me is a very interesting proposition because it suggests that we have a site here being used to mobilize the population and to transfer to them the knowledge of agriculture which suddenly appears around go back lee tapi at the time that go back and happy as far imagining what do you mean by side and i add to that what i mean by what i mean by suddenly is klaus schmidt vet stated very clearly that these are the people that very same people who made go back lee teppei in cloud schmitz view are the people who quote unquote invented agriculture
if you don't mind me interrupting here for a second what about easter island was easter island established by hunter gatherers or not you were saying not you said you said it was established by hunter gather as i say not i say easter island was an agricultural society what's what's there to hunt and gather on a tiny island have you been to easter island i have six times and you know you can walk across it in three hours what's that gather on that well you know misunderstanding my point is that these are not sophisticated people ok bye sorry you said that you should be on both go beckley tempe i think that could you got schmidt right i think it's a unesco site we all recognize how important it is but what what i think michael and i can understand all this ties into some some magna this is civilization there's nothing there that indicates that they were influenced by some other civilization except a lot they started out as hunter gatherers and then we evolved into a agricultural society
yes and that's what makes it a great song can i answer you you're seriously saying that there's nothing there i mean the largest megalithic site on earth seven thousand years older than stonehenge is there there's no background to it no no evidence of practice or the megalithic site itself is the problem for me ok i uh we've got mega list in quite a few sites and by the way you're right there make a list just down the road from go beckley tempe probably so that several other i can see him on my house yeah we need to get to the bottom of this wonderful a lot of work to do there you bet so i think you good grief ok so you guys are agreement on that basis that i don't think there's any any need to follow up on this great civilization that you say exist to me the simplest explanation is a transfer of knowledge transfer of technology i've been writing about possibility of a lost civilization for more than one slash four century that's what i do i hope that it's a useful contribution to that the debate i mean archaeologists
we can choose not to listen to anything i say to dismiss me as a complete lunatic as they often do to accused as you do in writing of jew ping the public of conning the public and so on and so forth how did you know you were calling we did use the weight conning actually it's in the very last paragraph of your article 'cause i got it right here in front of maine we will fix that no don't use the white calling you got this was the first thing i wrote i just put it up for my students well is there well wait wait wait hold on a second hold on exactly why i am i am left with what i'm left with is that hancock m going to put my reading glasses on so i can read this properly what i am with this is quoting you mark is that hancock has a real knack for conning a hellacious number of people into buying his books i mean that's a direct ad hominem insult it's online in in your article you and buy it or not but listen i apologize to you for the use of that language is that
what you want here because i do i'm sorry i'm sorry you used it in the first place i think you're misleading your students why would you say that you're just putting that on line for your students as if that's not a big deal putting it on the internet it is saying you're just putting it online for your students and you've been proven incorrect and how many different times in this article now well about seven correct i haven't been proven incorrect well you have you misquote you don't give the contact name it's not even my call twenty twelve and even michael has said that the skeptic article will not repeat not reflect these out of context that means the making him right to the core is is the impact type out this is likely to be true or not and as an independent phenomenon is it connected to go back tempe in the younger dryas i mean that's kind of what we're getting at so then we can it maybe you can explain that graph that shows all of the glacial dam bursts and the dating
those as has thousands of years before the twelve thousand eight hundred year impact did you guys get in what is that what does that mean well i which map is that cement iron which about mark i'm sorry it's the glacial map of western washington national shows yeah it okay jamie put it up so this is right away i i should do to protect like so here i i submitted this michael made immense amount of changes on that paper i put it up because i want my students to see it i had no idea that people would go online and look at that like good morning but unfortunately you sent 10s of thousands of people probably two it by letting him well it's on here and i'm sorry for that but why is it ok to just put that up online for your students yet why you how come you don't have any problem with that but you do have a problem with
as it stands being released to the general public oh well maybe he's looking for people by everything i said except for the personal comment at the end well we'll see a list of all the editing process yeah let's okay let's put up this market at back to the mail okay the brown areas are now i have to emphasize that that the scablands is very famous people have been working geologists have been working on this for more than one hundred years i bet and very intricate still mapping and we now know what areas have been flooded that's in the brown green areas are the old glacial lakes a one of them you can he is the columbia lake and the
the one on the far right over in montana let's lake missoula now i guess my my point here is is that you guys want to make the flooding out here to be a and i i think brit's original idea was that there was just one flooding but then breaks came to to understand after looking at the data and all of the geology geologic work that it wasn't just one flood that it's many and that was the point of all of those dates that i show you that there were there have been at least seventeen specific flood stated there probably as many as forty to fifty floods out there and they're all probably related to a glacial dams breaking now where in the world would you ever say that this small area relative to an entire continent
why would you say that this is evidence for a comma strike comments right now even the comic guys are saying that this flooding out here is related to a com there are a large number for a very very small number of airy actual area that is flooded if you take a look now at my dates or not my dates but the dates do you have that michael just the one we were going to bring that up but let's let randall carlson address you now because he's the one that's the answer to this i mean he's got a point that if you just look at if you can find your examination to this area but the point is you've got evidence of mega flooding all around the ice sheet margin from the atlantic to the pacific you've got the work of key human lord in the midwestern states south dakota north dakota easter montana you've got massive spillways out there that discharged off the ice sheet you have glacial
river warren that was undoubtedly formed by most likely glacial lake agassiz and you've got the saint croix river took graham a couple of years ago that had mega floods down at their mega floods down the mississippi river there was glacial wisconsin that disk search down the wisconsin river left the wisconsin dells uhm there are the your lakes in new york that probably were created by massive floods emanating off of that scholar scoured exactly right they were scoured and they were probably scoured by subglacial floods that were coming under high pressure as you know you have the drumlin fields that are just to the south of them and you probably seen work of john sean there be any an bruce ranian nose out of canada reinterpret drums is crazy well why would that be why would
how do you propose the drumlins then were formed easily easel came forward and top top to the the terminal moraine in and spread the marines out in the but how i mean you've got you've got features that look like they're totally fluviale produced you have they look they converted bo tells you look at the internal stratification how does glaciers create internal stratification i've looked i've looked at it drumlins in canada looked at drumlins in new york state i've looked at drumlins in probably a dozen different places and where you can see exposures you see stratification you don't see if glaciers are grinding over deformable substrate how is it that they produce anything other than a chaotic jumble of glacial till you can actually
the layering i've seen it myself and we can pull up pictures of it here in a minute and i'd like for you to explain to me that 'cause i'm not disagreeing with you ok drammen by definition is made up of till i think we're getting kind of technical for this audience but you know an eskar is something that stratified not drumlin well you're missed miss identifying them is drumlins no i am not misidentifying drums i know very clearly the difference between an eskarina a drum when i looked at many askers i've hiked on i've flown over an airplane to finger lakes are gouged they're gouged yes are they now just by glaciers or are they also gouged by subglacial mega floods that's the question and i think that's a fair question to ask and if we look at some of the studies we find out that depositional material in them is massive it's not stratified its massive is if it was dumped in there a very short period of time let me go back to the to the
bigger picture but hold on second which what's your point about that i'm sorry respond to that what he just said what am i responding to oh look we're going i have to disagree i mean one of my supposed to i don't want to get in an argument with him here he thinks that they're done my water right into to traditionally the way yes you are just see the grit the finger lakes is there couch now there parallel to one another if he thinks it's water ok what can we do we can disagree i guess well let me go back up to the the main glacier of the room iran tie glacier wally broker a suggested in nine in the nineties that water of the change actually it was changed from flowing down the mississippi valley into the atlanta over the arctic no one has been able to find any evidence of flooding towards the atlantic or the yard so when
say they're all kinds of evidence of flooding up there hi nick and then slowly broker backed off of his is scary because we couldn't find any flooding of why he back off of was that the idea that the draining of glacial lake agassiz triggered the younger dryas because what they did during the day king of the draining of glacial lake agassiz was post younger dryas and so that's what he backed off of he didn't necessarily back i was look we know that there were there were some more rain sitting here for only they've been carefully now you can watch the learn thai glacier move back lorraine after marine no holes in that moraine that that suggests flooding there's no change in the lake level of lake agassiz there's no ever since there randall four flooding you've got it wrong if you look at the mapping that the careful mapping with the geologists have done you just said that there was no change in the level of lake agassiz how is that possible i mean the ice receded
glacial lake agassiz expanded and at some point it finally breached right there at it by big lake in minnesota and and basically carved out the minnesota river valley which geologic little studies have confirmed they called go river warren and have confirmed it essentially it was caring it's pekpek discharge was roughly four thousand times greater than the modern minnesota river that flows there and where did that end up into the mississippi the mississippi then conveyed that water into the gulf of mexico and deposited huge amounts of of delta material that new orleans is built on now you know you're trying to make a flood or a flood isn't it there's a do difference between a glacier melting which causes a lot of water and a comet striking at which cases creates copious amounts of water i think guys refer to it the last time is a tsunami there's no evidence of a tsunami in north america have you been friendly here's another question why do you guys why are you guys talk
about north america when atlantis is supposed to be in egypt or more i have run around you found some evidence of flooding in north america and somehow this relates to uh optional did landis and so lost civilization well that's not that's not what i'm talking about right now i'm not talking about that we know there was a fennoscandia and i she we know there was a court hearing i she we know there was a lauren tied i she we know they all melted we know that there was somewhere around six million cubic miles of ice wrapped up in knows it in does ice sheets at the end of at the late glacial maximum they're all gone now they the milk that was an enormous amount of water and i so if you have band out to the airplanes i've been going back to the scablands in the area of glacial lake missoula since one thousand nine hundred and seventy i've been across that thing sixty thousand miles back and forth i have over ten thousand photographs of the material in the field and i
can tell you those floods were enormous they were beyond cherry picking look at the map you showed pictures you know we can measure those current ripple marks that you show we can measure much water went over all you have to do is measure you can go into camas prairie and you got a current ripple field there that is about seven miles long the i know i know it's ok and the high watermark in there is at four thousand two hundred feet above sea level the floor of camas prairie is just one thousand four hundred feet lower than that so we know that there were one thousand four hundred feet of water that passed through canvas prairie and down into the flathead river no we don't well because then are you disregarding are you disregarding the high water marks from the bottom of the canyon copper canyon is not what it was when the water first started flowing in that area you can't take the
hello the canyon and say oh there must have been four thousand sea water here i'm not talking about a canyon i'm talking about camas prairie basin which is not a canyon it's a basic or road at one time well most of the material in here was washed in so i mean we don't know how much it would have eroded until somebody does some core samples to get down to something that be dated to earlier you know than the late glacial maximum but the floor of thomas prairie is is thick layers of very coarse gravel bold and this is what composes the the current ripples that you see there i i don't see how you can look at those current ripples that are sometimes forty and fifty feet in amplitude with two and three hundred feet cord and say that that wasn't a catastrophic maybe it wasn't working it was a credit strophic flowed but it wasn't like a tsunami well then how would you characterize and and we can you know we can do i can play this game are you saying there every geologist
so on the planet practically says that there are more about forty different flow until you came along no no no obviously not familiar you're not familiar with the worked in victor baker or russell bunker or and uh of others that have challenged the forty floods hypothesis and are you going to tell me that those current ripples in camas prairie are created they are the product of forty separate floods oh absolutely in fact when you shut your pictures i could see the flow changes in that oh don't give me the the year encouraged stuff i'm sorry i mean you're right did you do the incredulous all the time well if you see some pretty incredible story floods created the camas prairie i'm a that's what you're saying that's for that's the product of forty separate floods those current cripples many floods have been in there i know that there are they're going they're counting them
and i and i last read something the effective forty somewhere around yeah that's based on the work of richard weight goes back to the to the early eighties and i think he's got no they'll go to go to his graph we don't is the graph which graph is this mark well it's the one right below the math here this one it's the dating ok flood here we go we're we're at that right now i i think what i hopefully hopefully we're disagreeing in a his comrades here yeah yeah yeah i mean i'm just trying to give you some data here look at those those are missoula floods late late missoula he's got him dated you're seeing that he's he's got standard deviations one and two standard deviations on on the median there so we've got these these things pinned by multiple carbon dates the
bell curves there show how many carbon dates he's got and you can see that these are document very very well yes so i don't understand why you're you're you're so opposed to multiple floods in better the last time you guys were on this show i heard you say that you thought there were multiple it's not you're trying are no instead i do i am not i i still i still think there were multiple floods i think we have to look at too just regimes of floods though and as far as the radiocarbon dating the thing we have to be really careful of is that floods in train older sediment and in the builder sentiment there could be radiocarbon dated material that doesn't really date the time of the flood but was invaded by the flood in trained into floodwaters and then redeposited so you know that that's a major problem with radiocarbon dating anytime you look at flood sentiment and i do believe there were multiple floods that's you know i think
misinterpretation to think that i only think that there was one flood but there the problem is here and i do it they were colleagues and i my approach to this is just like you know in the anime when two guys get out there and try to beat the crap out of each other and then at the end of it they give each other a hug that's kind of where i'm coming from so you know there's nothing personal here can give each other hugs but i feel the same way and by the way you guys very bright and and very knowledgeable well you know i right i really value this because i'm looking for you know i'm looking for holes in this idea very much so and and i've done some serious thinking about this over many years and i have interviewed most of the geologists that have worked on it i've been in half a dozen field trips guided by the the the main geologists that have worked on this and had a chance to dialogue with them and and you know i i'm convinced it you know there are still some not to be learned about this and i think we
to be looking at like you said the big picture and we could get back to discussion of the finger lakes and how they formed i think that's important i think we could get back to a discussion about drumlins and how they formed his studies on the valley heads maureen that are at the south end of the finger lakes that have it i can't think of who did it right now i could pull it up but basically so there it's water deposited but but there's a lot of unresolved issues about what happened during this transition planetary transition out of the last ice age and i think it's important that we have these options that we have these dialogues and then we try to to the bottom of what actually happened without you know posing too many preconceptions appan our models because i think we're looking at something very unprecedented here um randall i couldn't have said that better it was very well articulated let me go back to the big picture if i could just for a minute because
i want to address something that graham said earlier and that is that instagram seems i had this idea that that comets break up all the time but but people didn't understand i comets and meteorites understand that the the the comet so let me or whatever it was it broke up broke up because of the gravitation of jupiter we would not expect these comets to break up entering into the atmosphere is one of the problems that the common people have had the firestone one suggested of
the longer white comic striking now a days looking it up into multiple comments the problem is you can't get it separated if the comment rick so it's very hard to separate it so the hits in multiple places in so soon this is a big picture kind of problem with the common people are having with the sun so you may be able to get it to hit the north american ice sheet but i'm telling you that the studies are showing that you're not going to be able to who is without leaving marks and so far nobody's been able to find a credit you know that they are suggesting a4 kilometre comma if it could break up it would generate one million crater meteor craters you know how big that was that was forty nine thousand years ago we don't see that in the in the climate record 49th
one thousand years ago we should see that we don't see it it's about a bear a little scene prompt is been standing huge comet strike malcolm becomes has been standing by for best part of three hours since he's a member of the comet research group wouldn't it be a good time to bring it on yeah we can bring him on as long as marcus satisfied that he said his piece but unfortunately mark we can't have two people on the phone at the same time do you think i really appreciate you having on july appreciate you coming on too and i'm glad you guys especially you and randall seem to have ironed out a lot of your ideas i think there's there's a lot to be learned here obviously and there's a lot that already has been learned and this is an unbelievably fascinating subject and i think often times when these debates get heated a lot gets boston who's wrong or who's right but i think what we can i agree on is that what we're dealing with is an unbelievable point in history and the history of this planet and trying to
what caused it and why is some really fascinating stuff so mark really appreciate your time and really appreciate you it you in part of your knowledge on us mark if it if at all possible i would love to kind of keep some of this dialogue going 'cause i really would have value your input uhm right you randall and i couldn't get through i'm not sure why nine i'm not because i would have seen that i definitely would have responded so well that site please send me a look i will definitely connect you guys after this is over and thank you once again mark really really put a call and if i can just say i i do hope you'll revisit your article and just have a look at the context in which you present thank you so thank you mark okay l we're going to call caller number two this is a fascinating podcast though and your friend who is waiting is malcolm accompt monkeys one of the comet research group scientists
uh this is a large and diverse body of scientists who come at the material with different expertise and different areas of knowledge it happens that malcolm is a co author of the recent i regarded highly significant paper finding platinum anomaly across north america and i hope i might begin with begin with addressing why that might indicate a comet impact right is malcolm and it should be malcolm can you hear us i like here excellent how are you malcolm thank you very much for joining us i'm happy to be here so give us your thoughts on what graham just said if you would as to why why
sense that it was a comment that hit and why there would be these large deposits of these what what was it exactly because i mean that ties in with the recent paper but but malcolm is also an expert in magnetic microsphere yul's and i think he can address that issue as well the whole range of proxies of impact brooks and now i'm out and malcolm please just give us your thoughts on this entire phenomena if you work i will have to be here have you is the breaking up now go ahead go ahead markham i think there's an issue seems to be the can yeah i know what's going on i've got a feedback i've gotta turn off this ok yeah you gotta mute that other video oh ok ok you're listening to us at the same time as talking to us you're going to get your
getting us something like a 42nd delay or something exactly yeah ok we cool now actually i was very interested to hear marks his initial statement kind of put me off but his subsequent statements that were pretty accurate and there is there are many problems with the the the this is that there was an impact and that's the way i consider i don't really think in terms of a common impact i think in terms of extraterrestrial impact because i don't think we've proven a common impact i don't think we've proven we i don't think we know what kind of an impact it was there's too many questions that have to be answered so i can't sign up to say that i'm defending the common impact hypothesis because i don't frankly know what it was we have a lot of evidence that appears to be extraterrestrial in nature we have magnetic micro stills i can give you
criticism we get is that the the evidence has not been replicated that's where i thought mark was going when he is initial state and was at the comedy back i bought this is just been in the box and i think what he meant was if i can speak for him was that the fact that it was a common is bender bunk i don't think that's necessarily true yet it just as an indicator that it was a we have haven't that it was more of an asteroid hit than anything else and i could conceivable a rubble pile that somehow became disassociated all other be back there have to be a mechanism our model for that i don't think we have a model for that all asteroids come in many flavors and rubble piles are certainly one loose lose i go get some material that could become separated possibly
but i just don't know i just don't know at this stage yes the the biggest criticism that we faced in terms of of the impact hypothesis is that the evidence is not the rock likable and we now have i guess for three or four evidence wine that had been replicated by numerous independent groups go to the nano diamonds which may be the most controversial of the bunch of the evidence lines that's been that's been replicated by four different groups independent five different studies the magnetic micro cereals which were initially treated very hostilely because they didn't understand what we were talking about and some of that was a self inflicted wound on the part of the initial study
which didn't show what we were really refined and that's been corrected and there's just this the same objection criticism is being made magnetic microsphere roles are typically break well they're melted and then they're clinched on the big city they're subjected to high temperatures and then those temperatures are are rapidly reduced which is sort of accepted to be characteristics of an impact so we got that evidence of an impact in that been replicated by ten different independent groups and including many of the same sites that that were originally disputed so then the disputation has been largely based upon the failure to do the most basic part of the protocol which is
to want to do that the scanning electron microscopic analysis of the sphere roles okay that that is mike this field in the land of diamonds the other is the discovery of platinum iridium ore osmium which of the platinum group elements which are characteristic of an asteroid and we found some of this is a recovery in not not a lot but there's been certain sites that are rich and radiant at the and once again this is at the younger dryas boundary not above not below it so there at that boundaries so that date see which is pretty solid inner idiom is indicative of an impact of extra trzechel origin correct that's correct in the platinum is simply just another more plentiful platinum group element obviously that's why they're called a platinum groups osman is one that is usually associated with a uridium there are now
levin studies by independent groups have confirmed via the currents of platinum osmium were ready so it looks to me like the evidence is piling up on the most recent one of course is the plan to study by more that just came out a few months ago now randall carlson just i'm sorry to interrupt you but randall carlson just had us pull up some images that were looking at randall please and what this is well this is from malcolm's two thousand and twelve independent valuation of conflicting microsphere results from different investigations this is supplementary information figure for so it's just so that the people watching this can actually see what you're talking about when you're discussing the rapid quenching effect on the surface of the micros so so we've got on the screen here supplementary information figure for where you've got the micros
girls from ta for blackwater draw and papa cove so just just so people can see that surface texture looks like oh yeah he see these they look like leaf like structures across it well the to see but they're there if you see the original image it's large enough and clear enough to actually it is what we call dendritic structures or or almost like a carpet yeah we've those are essentially truncated crystallization it's a it's a crystallization process that's quenched i'm not geologist had geologists tried to explain it to me and that's what i'm trying to do here but yeah the fact that these are enhanced these things are quite enhanced at the average rius and really depleted above and below now there are spherules throughout the column with any column of soil
when you go down vertically deeper you find spherules but those ferrules are typically what we call author genic which means that they are created by terrestrial processes i need to do a scanning electron microscope and x ray dispersive spectroscopy to differentiate those from the actual processes that are producing these things yeah your figure five has a frame boy three year old which is probably what you're talking about if you could go to slide one hundred and thirteen jaime anne you'll be able yeah there it is you can see very distinct difference so we've got your figure five up in the screen now malcolm uhm the scanning
google fram boyd when when you look at our optical microscope they look just like the we're very much like the the what we call in tax rules are magnetic microsphere rules and make occur much more frequently i mean i've got i've got sides tens of thousands these things in every couple of centimeters of of settlement so you've got to separate the this might be the end tax year also the magnetic microsphere orange from these things but what you appear to be saying malcolm is that there is an abundance of impact proxy evidence which in your opinion adds up to a cosmic impact of some sort not necessarily a comet you're suggesting an asteroid is a mysterious event in that sense but what it up to is an impact in your view i'm is that a fair a fair proxies max urals the platinum group elements the melt glass which i haven't discussed yet
and the nanograms diamonds are enhanced and the enhancement has been replicated on numerous occasions for each of these these taxis so anyone who says that the work of you and your team has been completely debunked is clearly not completely familiar with the literature then that's that would seem to be the case that or were disingenuous in that regard so i would say that that because typically what we see is that the opposition literature does not cite the studies that have come out yeah we try and both the critical studies and hours and give reasons why hours bodies supplant there's james happen i wish they would share but could you go to hasn't been the case slide eighty two it would be nice if we could have had you on with mark so you guys could exchange information but unfortunately our capabilities that we can only take one phone call at a time we
definitely try to update that for the new studio although we never anticipated this was going to happen in the first place but uh awesome oh there we go screen malcolm we've got from from ted bunch at al two thousand well very high temperature impact melt products as evidence for cosmic airburst sandy impacts twelve thousand nine hundred years ago so we have figure from supplementary information six delight photo micrograph of magnetic and glassy spherules from melrose pennsylvania and it shows the the wide variety of shapes which includes ferrules ovals teardrops and dumbbells i think so you can see pretty distinct what you're talking about here with the with the glassy uhm and then like particularly i not sure if you were co author of this paper or not it's not you are not ok are you from with that paper do you know the image good okay
i chose some very interesting teardrop shaped dumbbell shapes and where you can actually see that like dumbbell h up there this of two dissimilar accretionary spherules one clear silicon rich in the other opaque iron rich that have been fused together that's that's pretty convincing evidence of the of the energy that's involved in these phenomena that you actually have fused ferrules like this and then jamie go down to the next image which scanning electron microscope images comparing younger drivers boundaries girls on the top row with known impacts holes on the bottom row this is a very interesting comparison because you probably seen this one malcolm a there's there's three across the top three across the bottom and he is actually a from nut under knudsen's farm in canada it's a young cretaceous tertiary boundary sphero and just below it is a younger dryas spiro from lake cuchillo co in mexico and
i can see the morphological similarity of the two quite clearly then indeed compares see is a a ferrell from the tongue guska airburst and then he is younger dryas boundary from lingen germany which dates to twelve thousand eight hundred years before present and you can see very clearly the rapid quench melt texture on the surface between the comparison comparing ten guska airburst with a younger price boundary object and then finally ef we have an iron calcium silicosis ferrell from meteor crater compared with an iron calcium silica younger dryas boundary spiro from abu haria seria and again in each of these cases you can see the similarities between the different types of objects so you have these three objects which are come from net younger dryas boundary layer all which
have morphological similarity to known impact proxies and this very difficult to dismiss this as being mere coincidence yeah i would agree and those those are very especially the ac be pictures are very similar to the material that i'm taking out of the younger dryas boundary at the sites that i've been looking at baja malcolm what evidence if any uh are you aware of about what is that new your glass material called trying trying trying trying trying trying trying to type that's how you say it i i this is what i understand there's quite a bit of that that also appears in the in the same time period in the core samples there are some instances of it but i would say quite a bit
is it me they're very site specific in one of the one of the things i've been trying to do is work my way closer and closer to canada see if there's any truth to the so this whole idea that the primary impact site was canada so i've been trying to look at so page closer and closer and i've seen sites in new jersey this would be eastern canada i've seen nights in new jersey new york and pennsylvania that produce what appears to be some form of trended tight or or milk glass or what ted bunch would call scoria like objects ann seems to to to bear out that that at least that far we're getting richer material out of the how did the younger dryers boundary settlement is that i'm gonna type this material only produced in this manner or it's also produced through nuclear explosion tests right but other than that is the only way that it's produced on earth well impact would do it uh or a folder right
to do with what is that right is is what's produced by a lightning strike produce on agia cyril's a good breeze all the high temperature products that you see an impact but in a very limited way you would next like to see in a in a layer list there was some sort of global lightning storm the was going to say about the the milk glass is that in in the the material we're looking at you see evidence of of melted down zircon melted chromite all of which are very high temperature features eating out very high temperature that was experienced by that particular are you saying the image we have up here yeah oh great ok good ok yeah there a is for meteor crater and b is from the trinity nuclear test so indian with a twenty two
yellow turn yield an nancy is from one of the soviet era nuclear tests andy is again escorial like object from abba horia so yeah so and then if we go to let's see you got to love it says stalinite like objects the like jimmy there's only been found in about half a dozen sites at this point so don't you know i think it's a matter of how close you are to an impact point and if you're very far apart that would lend credence i think to the this idea of multiple impacts if they seem to get more you know more wonderful as you get further and further north and maybe there's more more legitimacy to to a primary impact site all right now we just don't know yeah we're still we're dying we're still work in that
alright we got another nice slide from from the bunch article here that use the caliphal slide yeah calcium oxide rich korea like object by the melting of carbonate and silica rich precursor rocks the yellow areas the calcium oxide the white areas less battlerite and dark areas are iron oxide so that's a really nice yeah i've been struggling with shut down and then maybe if you go to the next one we will see there's scoria like object from me crater arizona and you could toggle back and forth between the two so the people can kind of see the similarity between am see a lot that's when i in the sykes the produce no class that's what i'm saying yeah those two those two types of burma particular and how much this material are you finding in these sites well you don't plan
to say you don't find a lot of this material it takes it's a struggle to get it but what you don't find anything above or below it that particular layer unless you so that there's been a very dynamic environment which case it can be spread out in the in the soil column what's the implication of nothing above it and below it well that that you've got a specific date for a specific day and the lawyer that we've typically and just limit our investigation to layers that have been dated to the number drives boundary or contain boundary layer say do you have a very dynamic environment it can really screw things up it can be very difficult to interp so this is difficult flooding repetitive flooding difficult science to do so again this is difficult science to do yeah and and i should add there that proving an impact is not easy it takes awhile and
it just is proving an impact crater is not easy as i'm sure mark would agree that you find a crater and there's no guarantee that's either an impact impact event aurora volcanic event till you do the research and spend the time to investigate it but if you could sum guys for us what's your opinion now on the balance of the evidence always bearing in mind that you may change that opinion as more evidence comes in yeah i would say we were facing an unprecedented type of event here appears to have been a something approaching global i mean we but evidence now in south america we've got evidence in a lot of this stuff is unpublished there's a lot of things that that i could bring up there aren't published so that is kind of useless to refer to them because there's no way of checking what i'm saying but we're seeing stuff that goes very far into south america
and we're seeing things in syria we haven't looked elsewhere we've seen about in the pacific ocean we've seen it in europe so i mean so then it's all we haven't found it and it's but the younger dryas boundary that's correct yeah what have you found in the pacific ocean well sharma has found it a paper i can cite from his name be just a presentation we infer that the central pacific was a sight of deposition of osmium resulting from dusk from dust cloud following a meteorite impact at one thousand two hundred and twelve doesn't kill adams plus or minus four thousand so right net right in that ballpark sharma says that he found osmium i believe he's come up with micros ferrell so that same core but so the pacific is an idea that it gives you an idea of how extensive this thing was
now malcolm this is obviously some controversial material it's it's it's fairly new in terms of the public consciousness have you had anybody debate you on their serve you had anybody oppose you yeah goes with it goes with the territory i i wish the the the opposition in some respects in some cases i wish the opposition was of a bit higher caliber than than what i've seen i think it's it's been a sad state that the most virile my position has not but i have i hadn't regarded as particularly high quality mount malcolm michael shermer here just do you have an opinion on the the association of the impact with the megafauna extinction and also then grams i thought this is about the eight you know extension of this lost civilization i the i won't even comment on the lawsuit was asian
aspects of this i have a hard enough time dealing with a meteorite impact as far as the megafauna goes i think that like i would say all of the above i think that all these these factors came into play you got are humans who are you know for that period technologically advanced with with the the clovis point in the the apple island and the spear the replaceable spear tip that must've been devastating to the former but the the idea of attacking at approach the city and to me is almost unthinkable those things are today if you don't have a high powered rifle i just don't see how you you realistically go up against her boleh i mean it just strikes me as far too dangerous but other aspects of that question that i think we're going to be very very interesting lee debated in the next next
couple years or so we have a book coming out that addresses that directly at one of the sites i've been researching that the whole extinct through the megaphone are may have been as much related to religion is something else there may have been a religion built around extinction of megafauna uh how so that's well that it would want the evidence for that that that evidence will be coming out and that's going to be published in about a month or two but i could speak to the whole idea of hunting bull elephants though unfortunately people have been hunting with bows and arrows forever it's not an addle addle addle addle is less effective you get less range but uh people hunt with not just mod and compound bows which are very powerful which would allow you to shoot it from one hundred cards away way but with longbows they've been hunting elephants with bows and for a long time you know especially the thing with woolly mammoth was that they would go after the females apparently according to a dan flores who wrote
american serengeti and that the females would keep the young in their body their gestation period was very long like i believe he said it was two years is that correct i think was two years and so i'm extremely vulnerable when they were pregnant see if you kill off the females that are pregnant you're killing off a substantial part of the breeding population and the population suffers tremendously so that was one but it also could have been that end you know i mean humans i'm sure had an impact on virtually anything that we could eat when we were starving but not we wipe them out the blitzkrieg bob this is there's a lot of holes in that theory according to what a lot of people to study that well i think you have it you know if you have an environmental impact or a degradation of the environment that might follow a significant impact extraterrestrial impact so
the population was stressing the population of megafauna that way and then you've got a population of hunters in addition to that is chip there for some reason or other focused on hunting probably sitting in someone when the number gets limited they don't care whether it's a female or a male and they go whatever they can get then i think the population of megaphones going to suffer so i think it's a combination of factors not necessarily just one i think that's very reasonable malcolm is there anything else you would like to add before we let you go uh no i i i guess one thing is the interest i found it interesting in the discussion of the badlands and and that was really it was looking at the scablands from from flying over them when i was a young naval officer that got me interested
science and why pursuit science it was looking at that the catastrophes that were edged in the landscape there the catastrophic floods that really cost me to pursue a the career in science it's really a remarkable landscape just a personal observation well tomorrow we were very very thankful for your time and we really really appreciate your input here and it means a lot and thank you for everything you've and thank you for everything that you continue to do to highlight this it is such a fascinating subject and it's so amazing and uh it's just without someone like you presenting hard data in science it would definitely be lossed so thank you so much thank you thank you malcolm yeah thank you malcolm all right malcolm we're going to let you go ok take it easy buddy sound down time for your nap malcolm
that's a lot of energy so these podcasts along i mean four hours ago sitting there on standby probably you know chomping at the bit uhm before we go i want to see some pictures of the scablands because that is pretty amazing stuff and randall one more thing there we go one thing that you pointed out to me during one of the episodes that was so stunning was is woolly mammoth that been literally knocked over by an impact with broken legs and that died on the spot those images i do that it's actually a mastodon mastodon i'm sorry yeah yeah i want to see those so let's go to the scablands first so we can show the audience on youtube by the way only about ten percent of the people that watch this so if you're listening to this go check out the scab things on google and you could see this describe it to us randall well here we are this is a textbook scab
right here let's see what this is probably rock lake or sprague lake into cheney palouse scablands yeah you see the holes there that's a sign of turbulence extreme turbulence within the water cole king's then is what the process is called where you get it's so turbulent that it actually produces vortexes high intensity vortex motion in the water it will pick up settlement and then it can well let's way right into the into the bedrock going down there that's palouse falls which was it that's an underfit waterfall because what you have to realize is that at the peak of the flood this entire scene was submerged below water and the cataract here is an extinct feature and the over here was thousands of times greater than the present pollution that you see right there we've got a lot of great pic
there's a ponder geocosmic rex website and some awesome video clips on geo cosmic rex rex okay and you saying wreck like a car wreck well that's a play on words ok so yeah we are talking about that ok but uhm yeah we got some great drone footage on there i did we show that last time i was here we we did night of deadly showed a bit of the i prairie ripples did we show potholes cataract yeah yeah this the whole scabland thing is his literally fascinated me since one thousand nine hundred and seventy and like malcolm i think that summer of nineteen seventy traveling out some of these landscapes was yeah here we is the drone footage wow should yeah
and let's see be ready to pause you if we need so here is this the beginning is at the beginning we have a google earth image you can get a sense of what we're looking at here go back to the beginning right at the very beginning let's see if it starts off with a drunk so it starts off with the drone ok there she be another one that actually that's okay this is pretty cool this is these are four hundred foot cliffs this was a processional cataract very similar to dry falls the water was pouring coming from behind are here where is this specifically if anybody wanted to go watch this or look at this area natural area this is in eastern washington this is this is on the eastern rim of quincy basin it's called it's right along just you can see up there were those cliffs are in the middle distance right below there is the columbia river and
just north of wenatchee wisconsin wisconsin washington so basically what we had here was plucking quarrying as the water poured over this ridge this is the babcock ridge and behind us as the quincy basin which served as a temporary holding pond and let's is see is the draw here comes around i'm looking for the uh for the team keep going zoom in a little bit more there jamie i think we did so she can see you guys down on the ground right yeah we're in there somewhere lost in the vastness of the yeah now i remember we did show this yeah what about images of the the mastodons let's look at those and then was get out of here okay for that you have to go to the world of the place to sing on the aisle which i just should giving you that sounds like a amusement park yeah the world of the
this could be a way there some dudes normal skins on well maybe if they succeed in cloning some of those flash frozen animals up there may be really came out like that right yeah i don't possible it is but it seems like a terrible idea the lost world with the wrong nothing stockings any diseases but that's one of the big concerns about climate change right they were going to release some diseases but we don't have an immune system for yeah go to slide seventy eight this is a good example of by the way who is more thoroughly documented than randall carlson jesus christ man go to slides spell since two hundred and two thousand two hundred and fifty plus years of walking the walk in the scablands yeah this is phone deposit and what
happens is that in a particularly warm years when the the permafrost around the rivers collapses it exposes these huge deposits of bones which have been buried in the permafrost this is war you know when i look at stuff like this this site is why i say there had to be another mechanisms of extinction besides human hunting because this pile yeah because is it possible that this i mean it's not necessarily at the bottom of a cliff right 'cause you know that they pushed a lot of them off cliffs and a no no this this is stuff that when the the river floods erodes the banks and then this stuff falls out of the river banks right so it's it's been locked into the permit frost for however many thousands of years and it seems there's interesting lee two peaks of dates that one around thirteen thousand and the other on around thirty six thousand that that the arm the date that the fossilized remains are dating to which could point to
but potentially that there was some sort of an impact back then as well or something else some sort of notice i i i don't know i don't have an opinion on now by having all these together i mean has it been theorized that perhaps this was at the it but there's not a cliff near this right yeah just off the the to the right so there is there is a clip where at the bottom of a cliff right here that is actually it's a riverbank so just but you know that that was a hunting method they used storm the moffitt sided cliffs and they never make the only really couldn't even eat all of them like head smashed in buffalo head smashed it would yeah i would run so many i'm off cliffs there but but here's the thing here's the thing when look at it the more these mortality events of modern animals even like looking at elephants that perished during some of the severe droughts in the 80s in africa taffin studies show that it doesn't take three four five years before the remains have completely disappeared
in order to preserve a fossil that has to be rapidly removed from any kind of forces oxidation or scavenger or anything consume it see this stuff has been again it's been frozen in the permafrost for for however many years ten or twelve or fifteen thousand years so is likely covered in an event covered in an event yes now there was one that i really wanted you to get to that was a mastodon that had been literally knocked over and had broken legs yeah that would be we could look very quickly at slide ninety two this is one of the more interesting advance this was the the flash frozen woolly mammoth go to the go to slide ninety three it's a much clearer yeah this was a mammoth six ton mammoth that was again one of these river collapses the banks
my apps during a warm spring and expose this remains of a woolly mammoth with soft tissue preserved content with the food in its stomach undigested actually a mouthful of food the hips of the mammoth were both broken as if he was thrown back on his haunches very violently he had an erect penises which suggests to that he was suffocated which is it was a freak where he was afraid he was getting ready michael laughs at that that's the dogs ate the flash off the skull that's why it's it's buried like that you'll see the front left for lamb there you see bottom there left right at the center of the screen that's to his back leg that you see right there um the interesting thing about this is you know the rapidity of climate change that's implied by being able to freeze a six ton mammoth because
the contents of his stomach according to the studies had not really even putrefied yet which implies that the entire carcass had been frozen through and through probably in less than ten hours well i could see the iceman that's that's what that's exactly what happened to him yes interesting point in be a subject that we should talk about fell in between a crevice in a glacier correct yeah and probably got rapidly buried for the under the snow and the ice and that's how he ended up being preserved out overnight exactly the next slide actually shows a reconstruction of the of the in in this in a museum in russia showing what the the mammoths the circumstances under which you if you go to let's go in as a sidebar on
to show you how that science changes rather slowly sometimes it was a decade before they found out he was murdered because they found arrow point in his scapular here cut is about had defensive wounds on his hands and arms so he got in a fight and he had other peoples blood on his hand so he gave as good as he got and lost a fight so he was murdered wow and that took it with all that careful observation in laboratories of ten years before that came out yeah fastening the sometimes the stuff has to just take awhile so if i can try to find some common ground with before we sign off with graham you know you're eat you know your book it if you have this really great sadness that i quote
put this it would mean at least at some yet unknown and identify people somewhere in the world had already mastered all the arts and attributes of a high civilization more than twelve thousand years ago and sent out emissaries around the world ok i think this is entirely possible cognitively for sure and you know i would do it for me would you know the boats that they sent the emissaries out on the would carbon fourteen dated an and some specific examples of high arts and attributes of high civilization so if it's not metal and writing than whatever it is i would change my mind absolutely that's good to hear michael and i think as the as the research continues in this area but a few years from having been much and an outsider i have felt that the evidence is moving in direction that is helpful to the argument that i make i hope it will
can you to be that way i hope the evidence that you're looking for will come will come out i'm trying to like i say might might my role as a reporter and i'm trying to be a reporter for the alternative sides of things but to do so to do so in an effective and and hopefully third there's a good argument in history science to be made for the role of outsiders a complete outsiders odds to come in and shake things up i mean freeman dyson as an example you know yeah totally self taught autodidact i call you an auto died absolutely and they can make an if nothing else they push people to really figure out what it is they believe and why because otherwise no one's going to challenge him so inbred is a good example of that school teacher right now randall carlson good example absolutely also accept something less you still want to look at this real quick to mastodon i got it right here let's do it and he could go for days one morning swallow but randall he never gets tired of this stuff you could
your enthusiasm would be an awesome pill well maybe we can talk about put internet memory focus there yeah alright we're going to look at this mastodon here one hundred and twenty five one twenty five yeah so this is a mastodon that was dug up in a pit years ago actually and showed that the bones were lying on in in a layer of limi clay or moral about one foot in thickness when i mentioned it when it gets up and it goes on to say the skeleton proved to be badly disturbed in the bones crushed and broken as an exam all of the amount of disturbance one of the ribs lay beneath one of the tusks while another was thrust through an aperture in the pelvis a shoulder i had rested to the right of the skull in one of the large neck vertebrae was found about ten feet from the skull near a portion of the pelvis in spite of the widdis location of the parts this
it really is interesting the bones of one of the feet remained intact and in place very possibly in the spot where the animal last stepped so in other words the foot there's a foot still embedded in the soft material where he was apparently stepping at the time whatever happened to him and this is all the same time period as the other mastodon we don't have dating on this but it it likely was very at the very end probably right internet younger dryas window because of the amount of sediment over it go to the next slide jamie and will see one hundred and twenty six we can get a better bing thing theoretically at least was phone back yeah too there we go you can see one of the femurs that's been busted squarely across they go on to say that even the large to the bone such as the thigh bones were broken squarely across in places indicating that some considerable force had been exert upon them any
conclusion as to an agency powerful enough to cause such destruction must be highly speculative so basically what you're seeing here is a mastodon that got smashed into the into the ground while the the forces there were strong powerful shear forces that would have literally separated his leg from the fourth it's still in immersed into the into the ground so i mean there are many examples of the s and the last slide we're gonna show if you go back this now prompts you know what's what digging with jack horner the paleontologist the diners and he showed these debris flow pileups of dinosaur bones that had been splintered in broken wow and these are huge just from the force of the water and then piling up at the wall and so if we could do it to a dinosaur while right eight thousand and eighty five
eighty five is an interesting slide because what it shows is the london ivory docks which for a period of about two centuries this was uhm this was mammoth ivory that's being god of the siberian permafrost that's just a drawing that's drawing problem with that like that's what it looks like well this is what it looks like in nineteen century scene showing the ivory floor of the london docks covered by thousands of mammoth tusks and this went on year after year after year after year for roughly two centuries there is so much of that mammoth ivory by the way that they use it to make knife handles i actually have a knife handle that yeah that was made out of mammoth ivory and still to this day not only is it legal but it's common who's mammoth ivory for different kinds of things there's so much of it well they're not about danger species 'cause they're kind of loophole in this case
so what we have is tux that are being again dug out of the permafrost right so how did they get there that becomes the question does it have anything to do with human predation or was it a natural catastrophe that somehow ended up putting all these mammoths down an bearing aminta permafrost that's the question i want to raise well i think we raise a lot of questions i think we got some pretty good answers i think we had some great dialogue an i really appreciate your time all three of you guys and a thank you to malcolm and thank you to mark and thank you to young jamie thanks my pleasure and thank you treat quick shout out shout out i want to thank brad young camera wilshire my brother my wife julie for helping all make this possible i also want to have people go to the g cosmic rex website sacred geometry international website for a lot more of this kind of stuff then i'm going to thank my
so having partner and wife santa who's shared every adventure with me for the last quarter of a century climb the great pyramid together we've been at the bottom of the ocean together and i wouldn't be doing any of this stuff if it weren't for that wonderful woman behind michael sure we wanna thank god thank my wife jennifer my little boy vinnie and my agent my light now no no but the skeptic dot com it might pat who you know keeps the show running when i'm running around doing things like this all right hi joe rogan thank general joe i speak all over the world and whether it's south africa or whether it's japan or whether it's britain or whether it's the united states or whether it's croatia people talk to me and they say joe rogan sent me well thank you i appreciate it buddy listing guess now it really well none of them do that all you guys are thank you so much alright will see you guys soon thank you bye so long thank you everybody for tune into the podcast thanks a caveman
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rogan for fifty percent off your first order and thank you to on it oh and it used use the code word rogan and save ten percent off any and all supplements all right we're supposed to have everlast tomorrow but something came up and he's rescheduling he will be there the following wednesday will have every last on the 24th but we got jocko willink returning on thursday i'm fucking super for that super inspirational character and i think a very important voice in this pose ified world we live in so that would be on thursday until then and enjoy your life and thank you guys so much for tunein and gals and nonbinary people who are the funk you are love you guys thank you bye bye bye bye
Transcript generated on 2019-11-17.