Hey everybody, what the fuck is going on, how you doing Joe DOT net forward slash tour. The tour begins soon in one two three weeks. Yes, weeks, I'm in Mini Minneapolis mini. Did it again what the fuck the people gonna really do even know where you are many out, Ellis St Paul, that's on June 23rd and then Indianapolis on the 24th. That's why it's so confusing to me, plus I'm stupid, but does dates, are all available at Joerogan DOT, net, slash tour and we've added a second show to both nights so Friday, night and Saturday night, and then I got a load of them afterwards, two weeks later, I'm at the Cobb Theater at the MGM in LAS Vegas Nevada, then August Comento, Seattle, San Diego

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It's really mean if you google him, You will find so many articles detailing his situation at evergreen, state college and the craziness, that's going on over there. He is very nice guy he's a very smart guy. He is an extreme progressive in the best sense of the word. And I really enjoy talking to him. I really enjoyed getting to the bottom of His thoughts on this, what he experienced and how can wacky the people the people are that are running this college And you're going to get to see it and once you do get to see it, I urge you just go online and watch some of the videos that some of these protesters- they've Essentia Lee locked out the school school is shut down today because of Threats- and it is the tip of the spear when it comes to politically correct, craziness gone amok, so that's it so the

this is what the podcasts about, and I really enjoyed it. I really enjoy talking to him, he's a great guy and I hope you enjoy it, give it up for Brett Weinstein, the Joe Rogan experience join my day, Joe Rogan podcast by night all day, all right with Brett. First of all, thanks for doing this appreciate it man very glad to be here. You look great, despite all this pressure. You're smiling is for people that I don't know what's going on, let's layout, all all of the events that have transpired- essentially, you are asked to step away, came from your college for today. Is that what it was? Is it one day? Well, this goes back far yeah. There is, let's lay out the whole thing. Okay, so we couldn't possibly lay out the whole thing, let's just for people that have no idea. What's going on right, there

listening right now, they're like who is this Brett Weinstein guy, so the core of it surrounds a tradition that we have at Evergreen called day of absence in this tradition stretches back long before I was ever at the college. I've been there fifteen years, this tradition stretches back into, I think the early 70s and it's it's built around a play written by Douglas Turner, Ward, a black playwright and the play portrays events in a fictional town where the black population decides not to show up one day in order to emphasize there roles in the town that the white population is unaware of and, as you would imagine, all hell breaks loose so anyway, that's a it's an excellent play and some early faculty at our college decided that we should have a day that you're in this event, and originally by,

track faculty and students, and then later people of color would leave campus for a day to emphasize the role that they play in our community and then they would later. The the tradition was amended in at a day of presents added to it where people would come back to campus, and this has been going on. As I said since the 70s in the whole time, I've been there and then this year it was announced by the organizing committee that the the situation would be reversed and I asked white students, staff and faculty not to come to campus and that did not at all sit well with me. As I said in my letter to the the person who had announced this receipt- or I should say, is staff online- she has ended up at the center of this controversy. I think wrongly just because my letter in response is addressed to her and then

was made public by our school paper, so her name has been dragged front and center, but in any case my letter, I said that there was all the difference in the world between a population decide absent themselves from a shared space in order to highlight their role and a population deciding to absent another population from a shared space which I find unacceptable, as as a person as somebody devoted to the gains of the civil rights movement. I just I'd and I should also probably say as a Jew and when people start telling me where I can and cannot be it at. It rings alarm bells so that that's the gist of the story and the letter caused quite a stir amongst students, staff and faculty who responded many of them quite angrily. Private.

Of course, people were much more divided on the matter and there are plenty of people who agreed with my letter, but publicly speaking, there was condemnation of the letter, but the event itself day of absence was mostly uneventful. I did go to campus, as I said I would in my letter- and I actually it's neither here nor there it was accidental. But while I was on campus, I ran into a student that I know very well actually student, that my wife and I were abroad in Ecuador with last year. We were teaching abroad and we had thirty students with us, and so one of the students who had traveled with us to Ecuador happened to be on campus too. This is a student of color. I'm gonna, stop this right too much. Bang around here is very strong.

Sorry, that's alright! That was going to go on. I was going to drive me crazy right. Keep going, so I ran into this student that I know well and care about quite a bit and we had a very nice conversation, mostly not about day of absence. As a matter of fact, I can't even remember if we did talk about to have apps but there was something poignant to me about the fact that, while I was being condemned for refusing to accept this new formulation that I was able to meet with a student who is important to me and the neither of our racial backgrounds is fund- is primary in our relationship. We know each other's people and that's really how I would like to see all of us interacting on campus. We all have our backgrounds they matter to us, but it can. It cannot become the primary interface between us. Let me stop you,

here and let me try to understand what the reaction was, because you right, He said that you think there's a huge problem with asking people to not show up simply based on the color of their skin. Exactly and what was the argument against like when, when you said that- and I read your letter and your letter- didn't sound racist at all- it sounded very well thought out. It made a very good point, but the response the in flight Tori response to your letter was so disturbing and shocking, Was there anyone who had reasonable debate with you about this? Was there anyone who said well, we we should. Taken in consideration? Why there asking us to do this, we should sit down with them. We should talk through this. It was there. Was there anything reasonable or was it just dig your heels in the sand and the

let the insults and the white privilege, and all these accusations fly well, like I said, there's a huge difference that you can't see unless you're at the center of one of these things between the public discussion and the private discussion privately, I had very interesting discussions with many people that was not absent, but if you were to look in on the discussion at the pub level it looked as if there was consensus united against me now, when you say public and private are the same p, will making contradictory statements in public that are that are commiserate. With you in private or is it just different people? A few of them? Do that that that actually is. The thing I find most surprising is that sometimes people will privately say one thing to you and then publicly do another. Mostly it's different people and I should say the people who have talked to me privately, an expressed concerns are actually quite a diverse group, so it's not as

White folks are disturbed by this, and people of color are united. It's not at all like that. But the part of the the hidden story here is that, in order to invent advance certain policy proposals, it has to appear that the community is united behind them and that anybody who stands against them is standing against them for illegitimate reasons. So that means that the number of people who are willing to express any sort of new wants about what's taking place, has to be small and they have to be dismissive also. What they did is they are called

a racist which is ironic because I'm an anti racist, I really I've. I've gone out of my way to first of all study the question of why racism, cars and I've, I believe, been pretty courageous in fighting against it. Were I've run into it. So to challenge me with that particular epithet was a mistake on their part was a strategic mistake and I I kept trying to tell them all this was still internally being discussed in the college. I kept trying to tell them that they should really check the concept that I'm a racist. They should ask because, if they did, they would discover that they actually way off the mark, and then they would have an interesting puzzle on their hands. Then they would have to explain to them selves while they had found themselves hurling this most poisonous term at somebody who not only isn't a racist but is pretty nearly the opposite. Well, it's a stand

maneuver. When someone wants to silence someone when someone wants to put someone in a category that's instantly recognizable, one of the best ones is racist, absolutely and- and what I found is that people simply could not figure out what they would do, if that a term term was applied to them. They were able to preview in their minds what that would be like, and so many people could see that there was no escape for them right. So it's like being called a rapist, almost it's like, even if you or exonerated they're still that cloud hang ring hanging above you, yes, but this also actually points to something pretty important for anybody who travels this ground. Themself they're going to discover this that many of the terms that are being used have been redefined, but they haven't been fully re defined. So one of the things that I've seen in several places is that a term like racist,

has been redefined so that the bar for being a racist is so low that you couldn't possibly help but trip over it, but then once you've tripped over it and you I accepted that you are a racist, then Stigma goes back to the original definition, so it is the dodge in weaving between the two definitions. That actually does the head. Lifting well there's also really disturbing idea, that's being bounced around lately that it's impossible to be racist if you're anything other than white right, which is ridiculous. It's preposterous anybody who looks at the actual definition of racism will discover that that's preposterous, but yes, that is pass in certain places as logical yeah and it's parroted. This very bizarre way that supposed to be unchallenged- and this is a fairly- In recent thing I mean this is something that existed two decades ago right. I agree and the pace at which it's moving in the last few years is very surprise,

It is surprising, but it kind of makes sense, because you get into these root groups of people. They have this confirmation bias they lump up together and they all reinforced their ideas in this echo chamber and they I'll do it inside the colleges and then, when he gets out to the rest of the world as we're seeing with your case at Evergreen, the press, the world is like what is going on over here, like what is happening in school and people who are sent their children off to school are very concerned with the doctor nation of these ideas and they adopt, and these very rigid mindsets that the rest the world just simply could pick apart pretty quickly. Well, this is the most shocking thing because I'm you know I'm I haven't been censured. I haven't been suspended still on the email distribution, I'm watching the traffic inside of my college and I'm able to compare it to the huge flood of

that I'm seeing from the outside world as they get wind of. What's going on at evergreen and the difference a million miles inside of evergreen. Actually, we are descending further into madness. The the faculty are blaming the fact that the campus had to be suddenly closed due to a threat from the outside yesterday on me for having talked about this in the outside world specifically from various. I see it. I can't use that term yeah, hopefully some day hi. I I hope it's soon and you know I must say one thing that I don't know we haven't even talked about where this site, where I got thrust into the spotlight here, which your listeners are gonna, have to no in order to understand why I'm even sitting here, but but the the intent

city and the I'm out of touch nature of the discussion inside the college simply reinforces the the impression that something is desperately off that that what we really have is a filter bubble that is so so strong that, even when the world sends very clear evidence that you've missed something somewhere and it's time to rethink what you've been doing there not waking up- and I love this college- this college- we maybe we'll get to talk about it, but the structuring of this college is so unusual and what one can do as a professor at Evergreen. If you're really dedicated to teaching it is the place to be because you have unparalleled pedagogical freedom. More freedom than you'd have is a tenured professor at Harvard, and you also have room to teach individually to students, because

Our students take one program at a time there full time in one program and the professors teach one program at a time full time and they can go on for a full year. So imagine you've got twenty. My students and you have them for a year full time You really know every student in your class individually, not just by name, but you know how they think you know their backgrounds, you know their blind spots and that allows for kind of teaching that can't be done anywhere else. So I am quite distressed at the fact that Evergreen is now. Endangered by what's going on, and I really would like to see it wake up and rescue itself because it is worth rescuing. I watched the is the president of the school gave the speech addressing all these issues. George bridges yeah looked like a hostage negotiation. It looked like he had a gun to his head. He was literally a hostage. It was so bizarre and kids are yeah.

Doing things out, I'm like what the fuck are you going to do and and and he It just has to take it. It's so strange. It's such bizarro world view it from the outside and to these posture as allegations. These kids are thrown at him of being racist and everyone's being racist and no one's doing anything to protect them, and everyone's acting like they're in danger in their ideas, are in danger and their their minds are in danger. It's just so this so h, grandstanding, it's so preposterous, like what is it well. First did you see the video in which doctor bridges, our president, is being challenged for his hand, gestures and the protesters are actually policing his hand, gestures.

It's what's wrong with his hand, gestures is not doing this as a no. No, it was a matter of a friend. I think you can even go like this to a friend because it dealt pause. You write blogs right there in the middle. No, he I think he is. I mean I I don't want a caricature this, because I really think it's very important as preposterous as what's going on is I think it's very important that we understand it. It's very easy to dismiss it, because it's so strange, but it's very important. We get it right. I think the complaint about the hand gestures was that they represented micrographs. If you will, I don't know sure that that was the complaint, but I can't make heads or tails of it. Otherwise what was he doing?. You. Can you move your hands and I think he was kind of gesturing like a person trying to talk with the motion right, so I'd I'd you think, there's a there's, a translation, which is this can be it is a micrographs in some way. You're speaking,

I mean it is in your hands. Well, we should talk about whether my congressional, even a good category, but, let's just say the protesters had enough. Control over him that he gestured they didn't like it. They, told him not to he capitulated he's been doing the entire time. I would say: there's a huge amount what's going on in evergreen. That is what I would call a show of force Is he afraid of losing his job? Is he afraid of losing the support of the students? What is he afraid of? Well, if I got to guess, I think he is afraid of the he's old enough. He doesn't need another job. He didn't need to take the job at Evergreen, which you took two years ago. I think he is afraid that this is going to be the caps. One of his career, a scandal in which he is allowed, the campus to get out of control which he did. But here's the crazy thing. It's a non scandal, you're a non racist who's been accused of being a racist. All you did was say, hey I.

I think you should be able to tell people they can't show up for work if they're white, they can't show for school of there. It seems kind of crazy and now hand. Escher's. This is how far we've sunk, that the reason we're not a Kent state. This is not the National Guard, shooting students, it's this moving your hands around where you're talking with emotion. That's a MIKE progression. These guys free of losing his job because of his hand, motions well, it goes beyond that. So, when George came to the college, he he studied us, which I can't hold him responsible for that. That was a good move. If he was well intentioned, he would have done that, but he studied us very carefully. He had a friend interview, hi, hundreds of us to figure out what was going on at the college, but then he set in motion policy proposals and committees were empowered in a way that was completely at odds with the way the school has run. Traditionally, how so well,

so. Among the many unique features of evergreen is the fact that the caught the college is in large measure governed by the faculty and even the administration. All of the deans are faculty members who have come from the faculty and when they're done being Dean's, they go back to the faculty to the faculty. Has control over the college in a way that I don't think there's another college in the cut. That runs that way it's so what that means is that if you want to advance a policy proposal, the faculty has to agree to, and George wanted to do, some things that the faculty would not have agreed to. So I I've told you about these full time. Programs for students get this really personally tailored education and they they join a community that everybody knows each other. He wanted to take those apart. Why? I can't imagine,

I can't imagine why you would I mean I I can. The most generous thing to say is that he did not understand what an important part of the evergreen model programs are whatever his reason. It was a terrible error. Only way to do it is to advance the the idea as an equity, enhancing idea. In other words, you can say that that the full time programs are anti. They are anti equity in the sense that if you are disadvantaged, you are less likely to be able to dedicate your full time to a program because you may be going to school. While you have a family and you have a job, and so you know no doubt there's some truth to that. But it doesn't. You know how many colleges in the country do we have that do for credit programs, and we don't need another. We have one college in the country that does full time, programs and EVA

if it is inconvenient for many people for reasons that are beyond their control. The real question is: can we get enough people for whom that's exactly the right model through the door? And you know they're, like you know it? It's also. The college is very inconvenient for people who live in Colorado by virtue of the fact that it's hundreds of miles away so anyway, If you wanted to advance that proposal, it had to be dressed up as equity, enhancing and once it equity enhancing. It became very hard to challenge it because, of course, if you did challenge it, then you were anti equity. Boy, that's convoluted you're telling me so he wants to sort disassemble, this very unique and very beneficial model that you guys are operating under is just one part of it now How does this get to this?

one suggestion that white people step down it doesn't the two are connected in the following sense: the President empowered he he chose people to be on. What's called the Equity Council, the council has changed its name several times, so I'm not even sure what the current name is. I think it's the equity and inclusion Council, but but in any case he chose this council. The council is, if you count the two teams that are on it. It's only one slash three faculty members, so it's mostly students, staff and less than half faculty, and he empowered them to propose modifications to the college that would be equity, enhancing and the thing that they advanced the strategic equity plan is extremely densely written. So it's hard to read and most of the people on our campus have not read it. Most of the people in the faculty have not read it. In fact,

when it was released. It was pretty clear that most of the people on the equity council hadn't read it because it was so full of errors, spelling errors and other things that would have been caught if people had gone through it, but in any case my wife who also teaches at evergreen- and I and several others did read it carefully and we're very alarmed at what was in it. So there were. There were features of the document that would, for example, completely reorient, are hiring so are hiring process. I would be up to see it revised and made better too 'cause. I don't, I don't think we do it very well. I think it's one of the things we were weak about, but but anyway, the proposal that they advanced was that, for example, every single higher would have to be justify I'd on the basis that it was equity, enhancing, meaning racially eckley, equity and handsome. So imagine racially equity enhance right, so it is not just a. Just a policy of hiring all people and not being racially

I'm but being discriminatory in looking for certain people, people certain colors, what your little Harmening twords, I think beyond that beyond But when I read that I thought, how exactly do you hire a physical chemist and justify that this is racially equity, enhancing so you would look towards like say if you had ten chemists you would try to only Hi are the ones that were of color yeah so there saying and that in yes, I think so I mean, as I said, that document is so densely written that it's hard to know. It really is set up, I think, to be dismissed so that it can be instituted, and then we find out what it really means, but think about the the all that I described about how we teach and everything that is not. Not a model that anybody trains to teaching

and the people who do it well are very unusual, so they're, not looking for the same professors that are you know that would be best at Berkeley, for example, we're looking for unusual people who will take full time programs and total pedagogical autonomy, meaning we actually literally are free to teach anything we want in any way we want, so that freedom is a marvelous thing. If you have a particular appetite for figuring out how teaching should be done that it's never been done anywhere else before and you're willing to to try it out and learn from the experience and and advance that way, so we're looking for very unusual people who find that at and appealing challenge rather than somebody who wants to get a textbook and deliver the the regular stuff. If we're now going to prioritize race over everything else in our hiring, then

finding those needles in a haystack who are actually well built to deal with that much pedagogical freedom, and that much contact with the students is going to be that much harder, because sometimes the right person for the job just simply isn't going to be dark skin, indoor who knows right so anyway, I found the proposed lasted, as did other people I talked to who had read it quite alarming at the level of hiring in particular. So is it meant to give the impression diversity, just by simply like look, we've got our boxes checked here Kate, Brown, woman, here's an asian man here is, I mean- is that what they're trying to do like look? We've got all our bases covered. This school divers. Well, I'd like to a placeholder on asian man, because during day of absence there was actually a. I guess you would call it a say, men are held on a how Asians might just be part of the problem here. Yes, Asia,

Susan and problem yes, and did you hear quote when you say the problem? I did and I'm not even sure. If I should, you know, the world is become so bizarre, so I need Asians are part of what problem. Well, I think I think the translation is that Becaus Asians are a population. I don't know to succeeding in a particular way, at least from the perception of those who are deciding what these seminars look like, that they. Actually, I don't know how special obligations in this I might say everything. I've just said about Asians could be repeated for women, especially white women, who are playing a special role in this equity battle on our camp. To so white women might be part of the problem as well as asian man quite clearly, and so right. So

the idea, I think I mean I, I have my own hypothesis about this, and that's really all it is, but it it does fit everything I've seen so far is that there are entities within the you know. You know ten years ago. The phrase women and minorities are a very common phrase right and what it meant was people who had faced historical oppression in the current context. That's too many people in order to to utilize these structures to to feed a certain set. Populations you can't very well have all women included, and so what's happened is people who are perceived as Yes, having been historically disadvantaged in some way, but also at the moment being successful in some sense are being shoved out of the coalition and then, if they feel I lost a sense of loss and having been shoved out. The mechanism to get back in

is to take on the role of what is, ironically, called ally ship in this case, which is not ally ship at all. It's an abuse of the concept of ally, ship ally ship is really of some symmetrical concept in the this is subordination is subordination that we hear that a lot with a male feminist community, the male feminists are supposed to be allies to women, and we, I even read a paper that was or an article. Rather, that was telling white people. If you truly want to be allies, you should not take high paying jobs, and you should only leave them to minority. Yes, my brother could ally yeah, that's what it, a good ally subordinates, and that means stepping away from a job etc? So it's not an ally at all. No, it has now thing to do without an. In fact, this is the thing that is most troubling to me about my personal situation. Is that if they really wanted, you know mind you're going to have to fill but they means. But if this coalition really wanted an ally for a quest for real equity, I would be an hour

right. I really quick reelect right, that's not what they want right, and so I wouldn't do that. What what do you think that means that, if, if they don't want real equity with they want is a special advantage given to people of color a special advantage giving to people that were historically oppressed. Well, let's put it this way, I believe so. I believe that in general, at the moment, coalitions are unholy alliances between two things, and in this case you have the real equity movement, which are people who we to end oppression, and then you have another movement that wishes to reverse oppression, and they don't know that they are different because until you reach equity there pointing in the same direction. I see so one is trying to balance it out by in some way pushing down against white people

when people have historically had privilege to trying to to reduce their role, they're, trying to literally a press which think about the story we're just talking about where the president of the college is being told how to move move his hands that's. Not so, unlike a black purse in a black man, let's say being told that he's not allowed to the white woman in the eye right. It's that kind of thing having been reversed. This is people of color, telling the president of our college how to move his hands. So it was people of color that were telling him to do this with his hands. That again, I gotta be really careful, because you know I've seen The video only once and I'm trying to remember if the people who are doing the asking are even on the screen. So I don't, I want to? I don't want to project something that I don't know for sure, but it was definitely this protesters which were protesting on some of them were white protesting on behalf of people of color and some of them, many of them where people have,

but even there were in trouble with the complexity, because the people of Color coalition that protesting is not synonymous with people of color, whatever their many people of color at Evergreen, who are who are simply bewildered by what's going on or very troubled by, because you can imagine, I mean imagine, just put yourself in the shoes of a person of color came to evergreen to get a really interesting education and didn't want to tell the president how to move his hands. And then you see the happening in your name. What exactly are you supposed to do that there's also the problem, the very real problem with the mob mentality, and it is a comma something with human beings and they get together in large groups and people start chanting and screaming, and they feel very justified. And they always want to escalate. It's very weird It's a strange reaction that human beings have in large groups acting together, where they just want to ramp things up. They want to take it

the next letter they want to shut this mother fucker down it's a weird thing. People do it, but I was watching it in your videos or for saying you should resign You need to resign like you need resign like wow, you did apologize to that woman for communicating with her the way you did right and very respectful and intelligent manner like it's they want to bully you around? They want to push you around. They want to take that, professor, that guy who's been allowed to be the one who's talking and distributing all the information, and they want to shut you down it's flat out bowling. Yeah and what I'm, what I'm seeing is almost nobody seems to know what to do about bullies, especially and their armed with a super weapon like the accusation that you're erases. Nobody understands that capitulating to bullies may solve your problem in the moment, but it makes the problem vastly worse over time, and so anyway, all I've done is apply that piece of knowledge that when it, when

the challenges you not. Capitulating is just a prerequisite to getting anywhere. Ideally, you want the bully to pay enough of the price that they don't continue what they're doing well. Ideally, you would like to have a rational conversation with these people and get them to see your perspective, and they should be the consider it and say ok he's not racist, well yeah this kind of Riddick those that were asking people who didn't have a say in what color they were born to step away from something or two we're, literally discriminating and under the guise being anti discriminatory. Tori were discriminating it's not even it wouldn't even be hard to have that conversation on one. Even I do it twenty on one, but don't you think that that's what they just start screen? Well, I mean a that you have to get used to the fact that you don't get

they're, all at once, you plant a seed, that's enough to cause them to know something about what we're saying couldn't possibly be right or we wouldn't be seeing. What we're seeing the problem here is that the mob we're talking about is so large that even you know in the couple cases on last Tuesday, I'm not this. Last as I guess it was two tuesdays ago now, the couple of times that I was faced with a group that was, you know somewhere below a hundred actually Do you think I made some progress, but I thought it was not durable at all because, as soon as the event was over, whatever progress was made got overwritten by whatever discussion happened. Next yeah, so it is possible to have these discussions, but there's something about the momentum that is in play here. That makes it impossible to make any durable progress. Durable progress is a very interesting description, durable progress.

Yeah 'cause you're fighting against this current movement of ridiculous ideas that that's going on through schools and we saw with Yale. We saw it with those students screaming at what was it the yes, it was a professor who is the put the guys they were screaming at that was trying to defend his wife's yes, email about Halloween costumes yeah. Maybe we should allow people to wear ridiculous, hollowing costumes because that's part of like the fun of Halloween. Yes, people are acting like you were saying that we should be lynching people, well, I'm so, first what he did reach out to me and his point was what you are going through is eerily reminiscent he's watched the videos he was just pointing out how shocking it was. I mean even to the point of my wife having been drag and here oddly in this discussion, where she

wrote an email internal to our our distribution list, asking the college why they were not protecting me and my students, who were being actively stalked on our campus harassed Doxxed, which stood my current students, but why why your current students being harassed? My current students, like almost all of my former students, know that this charge is completely baseless, and so they have been supportive so in defending you, then there being attacked app like their little soldiers in some sort of a strange ideological battle. They are being penalized for not falling in line wow. That's scary, it's real scary, bullying. When someone says hey he's a good guy and then someone comes after them. Instead, where this person lives, let's find them that it. That is actually literally happened, and what has happened to the students once they do find them well, so the

students have been. I think the idea is intimidation, so I've I've had students, follow in the woods and I would have had students visited at home, it's very scary, and that that I should say in just in terms of putting the context here, as the car college was pretending that nothing serious was going on. The police call me up on the Wednesday just after the Tuesday, in which I had been challenged in my class Anne asked me: are you on campus and I didn't have class? I said no, I'm not on campus. They said, don't come to campus and I said why and they said, because the protesters are searching car to car for what they describe as an individual, and we think it's you and the college has told us.

Stand down. We can't protect you watt. I know the college has told the police to not protect. You, the college, told the police to stand down, which means the police were literally barricaded in the police station, despite their sense that they very much needed to be actively protecting people outside of the police station. The police were left with no choice but to barricade themselves in the police station because they answer to the college administration, which told them not to act. I think because it wished to prevent aid, a news story, but this meant people engaged in these protests were roving freely about the campus looking for people following them. They, you know, so incredibly aggressive like looking for individuals in a car again to do what well that's the question. My guess would be even

they don't now. Let me say that it was me that they were looking for, which would make sense. I would imagine that they would have had the idea of I don't know taking me somewhere in getting me to knowledge, something that they think some sort of a hostage situation right, but suppose I didn't want to acknowledge whatever it is that they wanted me to acknowledge. Just as I didn't want to resign when they said I should resign, I don't I don't know if they had a back up plan. It worries me that one of the things that unfolded on the campus was that people who had a very clear idea of how things should go. Were they were literally they mean they were barricaded in the president's office with the president and a bunch of faculty members and staff, and the story is that the president wanted to go to the bathroom and that he was not even allowed to go privately to the bathroom. He had to be escorted by two people who president of the college, but who the people protestors protestors had

You go with him to the bathroom right, so that to me sounds like literally get nap. This just stunning that he agreed to that it it all of it is stunning. I can't believe I'm seeing it. This is p c gone amok. I mean this is what everybody's been worried about. This is that what you are right now is at the year the tip of the spear. We are previewing where this goes taken to its logical, x, yeah yeah, I mean and could have been Worse, had you not been contacted by the police? Had you been in one of those cars? Had you been pulled out? How you been pulled into some sort of a hostage situation where they're trying to tell you you can't go to the bathroom without us like they did to the fucking president. I agree- do it can't this is madness mean that's like people should go to jail for that? Well, so

Okay, I kidnapping it's kidnapping. I do think that the administration- and certain faculty members have a lot of responsibility here, so I think in some sense. Yes, it's literal kidnapping. This students, however, I believe, have become tools of something that they don't really understand. Tools of what, though, of on making I mean, is it an idea, rg and ideology outside of the school they subscribe to, or is it their own? I mean. What is it well, I believe if it is a militant belief structure, and I do think, based on what we've seen on our campus, it is emanating from a subset, of the black population. Okay. So I'm not saying that this is black people doing this, but I'm saying that the people who are at the forefront of it happened to be in that part of the coalition of people

caller and that they are advancing a set of some shins and beliefs that they seem to imagine. I describe some future world that they would like to reach and it's a future world. I mean it's preposterous. That will never happen, because what is the future world, where the four hundred years of oppression of black people in North America results in a a reversal of roles? I think I mean I I can't imagine having that fought and follow get through an not realizing that this can't possibly be anything like a way forward. I also see something that they've describe this reversal of roles. Well, the day would

like to come to this conclusion, so I would imagine that your listeners, having heard me just say what I said, have to be wondering a little bit about me and and where, where my sympathies really live, but what I've seen and if and if your listeners go. Looking at the videos that came out of evergreen over the last ten days posted by the protester I should point out videos that they thought you had them look good. They will find and many instances in which the official order of things says well, let's say: there's a four hundred o'clock meeting on the Tuesday in which I was challenged in the morning four hundred o'clock meeting. That became very dangerous. And the meeting began with an announcement that the chairs and the food were for people of color and that white people shouldn't use them. Yes, I know the chairs in the food we're only for people of color, correct white people have to be hungry right. You can't sit down

right and I've also seen you know, I don't remember where I saw it now. I probably have a screenshot of it, but I saw thing where some activists put out a message, broadcast message that and a person of color needed a power adapter for a computer. Were there any white people who could fetch one or something like that? Jeez I mean the thing: is that it's preposterous, but it is also putting in danger the actual vision of a war old in which race ceases to provide advantage right, so, anyway, it's jeopardize you that it should be reversed, its just so crazy, like we should oppressed now, like known there should be none right. We should get past this right. We should be anti. Suppressed, supremacist, one hundred percent. This idea get imagine if there was a college in North America that suggested that white people only should eat and why People only should be able to take the seats. Yes, I was

have in three hundred years, so it would have black people oppressed for the next three hundred than white people come back and say, hey we're going, to turn this around again I mean and the idea that one hundred years from now why people are going to be a minority in America, because the rates of birth- with Latinos and black folks that we we will it would. There won't be this minority group anymore, that they will be. In fact, a majority all I can say, is it's so obviously a wrong path, just in terms of a it's, not an honorable of, give it's racist, it's race, it's absolutely racist and yes mean it's not even it's not even difficult to see that it just simply is race, but if you say that on my campus at the moment, your the racist for not understanding why this is logic. So how do people react when someone says a person of color needs a power adapter? Can a white person go fetch? It are these white quote: allies running these beta males just running to go, grab a white power,

adapter and give it to this person of color. Is that what's happening? That's the literal description of Jesus Christ, and they have to in few years, they're gonna- have to go on to the workforce well and the thing that well! This is a whole other side of the puzzle. What this is really about, and not just at evergreen, but this movement, which is, and over so many campuses and shut down. So many people who spoke with positions that were not somehow sanctioned is really a battle between two incompatible worldviews I within the academy. So on the one hand you have the sign. This is an all of the things that function on the same assumptions that the Sciences do about how you figure out. What's true, and then you have these postmodern disciplines, which basically argue that the tools that the Sciences claim are about figuring out, what's true, are actually tools of oppression themselves, and so you know another video rulers ruler right exactly,

yeah exactly so there's this video in the middle of of the Tuesday, the first Tuesday of these protests, where the president barricaded with these protesters is talking to them, and the protest is actually flat out, say in referring to my email that I mentioned the word phenotype and that that inherently tells you that I must be racists, racist to even be thinking about a scientific term. In the context of this, which I find horrifying because these very students stand to gain a tremendous amount. They will be most powerful in the world in pursuing equity, among other things, they will be most powerful in the world if they are armed with a scientific tool kit with an analytical tool kit that allows them to to be forceful rather than

be preposterous. What was the context to use the word? Phenotype again, I I heard I said that I would like us. In my challenge to the new Dave absence formulation, I said I would like us to put phenotype aside right, put phenotype aside, meaning that I did not want us discussing equity as teams as different teams broken up by frank color, and so the very fact that I said phenotype and that I suggested that I would be willing to give a lecture to anybody who wanted to come about what understand to be the evolutionary context of racism and they did not want the lecture. I assumed that if I said evolution and racism that I was going to give you ten x lecture or something like that, and so it's it's preposterous that the way the way this works. Is they shut down the conversation before you can have it so that they don't actually know

what you're going to say and therefore don't need to address it. Yeah, it's quite frightening! Well, it's bizarre, because it's it's primarily occurring in universities. It's not happening really in high schools, very much it's sort of bubble up in high schools. It appears by people that I talked to the been in high school gone into universities that you see echoes of it. You see the beginnings and then, when gets to college you're away from your parents here in some new place, he they ever gathers in groups. They dig their heels the sand and they go fucking crazy, Well, I mean there is something about college yeah and no and we all it sure dumps. In college, but I also there's a hidden reason for being colleges, which is that there is real inequity in civilization that needs to be dealt with. I would say the thing that I find

most troubling is the skew in policing and in the courts that results in disproportionate fractions of some populations being incarcerated, which has terrifically destabilizing impact on this community. So I think that that is a very real harm that would be hard to overstate and that absolutely has to be addressed and just just to even make any claim on being a fair society. That said, it is very hard to attack the the private prison because

thanks, for example, right it, it's a it's a difficult challenge. On the other hand, the universities are soft target, they can't defend themselves and they already have sympathies in the direction of you know a view of a radically different enhanced world. So, in effect, I think we're being challenged on the basis that the inequities on our campuses are completely intolerable and that the is largely a fiction and that what really is happening is that this is displaced anger over a system. That is fair. That's been pointed at something that can't defend itself. That's fascinating, so this is a reaction to the actual real inequities of the outside world, the systemic racism places like Baltimore and we're finding out about places where

literally would not sell homes to black people, communities that have just had generation after generation of impoverished people that are fighting off crime, ridden neighborhoods right or what are you drink that has Brad Integrant right exactly so? What the Mercedes: what happening in the universities is sort of a misguided reaction to all the real inequity in the world. I would say not misguidance misdirect misdirect just pointed at the. Something and the reason it's pointed at the colleges and universities is that they simply can't defend themselves. That's fascinating, and so this is occuring in universities all over the country and at a rate that's accord into people that I know that teach pretty unprecedented, that this wasn't the case twenty years ago that you would have to sent. You would have debate. You have discussion, but you wouldn't

of these full blown ideological, mobs yeah. It would, but I think the thing is it hadn't been operationalized, yet the thought process that led to this was post modernism has been has been around for for decades, and so there were places you could go. If you wanted to have an absurd discussion, you could go, for example, to Cultural Anthropology. Cultural Anthropology was captured by Postmodernism thirty years ago, and so, if you wanted to hear people say really crazy things about what's true Cultural Anthropology was a place. You could do it if you step next door to Physical Anthropology,

it was just fine, and so anyway, that's been in the university and what's happened is it has been? How would one put it is been? Operationalized are activated so that it is now it is now. It forms the core of a vision that college students are trying to bring about, not all of them, but enough of them that you can't run a college without either decided to capitulate or figuring out how you're going to fight What was there a way that this could have been stopped or nipped in the bud the years passed or zero way that this could have been sort of planned for, or was there a lack of lack of foresight yeah? This is exactly it's it's what I was talking about a few minutes ago, if you, if you give in to the bully the bully, comes back stronger, we've been given in to the post modern Billy for decades.

And it's now come back in a form that nobody knows what to do with it. So what was the original reason to give in what will when it was a more mild argument? Well, because it was an abstraction So originally the idea that that certain that, based on their history, certain people who had been, for example, largely shut out of the sciences, were entitled to think without having to deal with the structures that had been built around- let's say men and most mostly white men over the course of western scientific history. So the idea that women maybe needed a place to discuss what was true that was not structured by men. I get that and in fact, there's a very good example in my own field, where

the difference between the way men and women. I don't mean every man and every woman, but the difference on average, I think, played a decisive and very positive call when Louis Leakey empowered three women to go study the three great apes in to figure out, what's going on with them and so Jane Goodall, to figure it out what was going on with the chimps, because she was because she was female and because she didn't subscribe to the rules. Men had written down about how you study these creatures, and so it is a case where something about the way men look at the world had prevented people like George Schaller, who had made his mark studying lions. He didn't do so well with guerrillas. So anyway, Jane Goodall's female approach worked, and it is largely the reason that we understand chimps today. On the other hand, Jane Goodall took the scientific tool kit and throughout the room

that had been biased rather than rejecting the scientific tool kit, which is what the post moderns are doing, which I think it's just tragic. What we should be doing is arming everybody who goes to college and frankly, we should be arming everybody who can't go to college with a scientific tool kit that lets them figure out. What's true, especially now, because science is the ultimate bullshit detector- and you know this era- is you know it, Hopefully this is peak bullshit, but they need the ultimate bullshit detector. It does seem like people bullshit right, and it seems like that. That's one of the reasons why it's so important for you to stand your ground is that you are you're being very clear in but what you perceive the situation to be and you're doing it in a very logical and a very

national, well thought out and clearly structured way, you're showing everyone what's wrong with this? That is a scientific approach. You are literally using the very tool so you're trying to empower these young children. Young children feel like they are yeah. The kid is a kid young that yeah that works yeah youthful exuberance. Human beings millennials yeah millennials? What I hate? Those words hate, those generational terms, but you're literally using you're dealing with a dilemma and you're using their very tool. Rules that you would like them to learn from this university and take forth into the world It is a very scientific approach, you're saying like more than no. This is not that's not racism, and this is racism and what you're doing here is actually racism right, and in fact you know, the irony is so my students and really my students. Many of them are both my students and my wife's students. We both teach evolutionary biology and students, bounce back and forth between

our program. So you know we have people in our community who are empowered by having an understanding of how things function, evolutionarily that gives them a window into all sorts of things, including you know, human social dynamics and other things that affect us all all the time. So anyway, Yes, there is a way of thinking about virtually any of the issues that most people care about using scientific rationality, which does not mean that you put aside your humanity, but it means that you give your humanity a tool to understand what is going on before you figure out how you feel about it and weather something ought to be done. How does this university survive this? How does Community survive this. How do these students come out of this with a new understanding of what went wrong

and in some way that allows them to save face and still be a viable part of the community? That is a beautiful question. Thank you for asking it. I really hope it works. I got three things and I'm afraid I'm going to forget one of 'em, but first of all, there's one clear first step. The president of the college has to step down, and there are two reasons: yeah to step down one. This is how things work. I don't like how you move in your hand, so I'm talking I'm sorry John Microagressions, that better, so he got to step down because a when something has gone as crazy. As we've seen things go on evergreens campus, there is an expectation that somebody will take responsibility, so he has to. I stepped down to signal to the world that somebody's taking responsibility, but in this case he also. Absolutely must step down, because this is his responsibility. He set this in motion and he made this happen, and so it is not

and justice at all that he should have to step down, and I frankly am flabbergasted that it hasn't happened. Yet I do not understand how the board of trustees could allow him to maintain that position as long as he has. But first thing is: he has to step down at the point he steps down. That's going to flip a switch. Suddenly, the question is ok. What now? The next thing that would have to happen is the faculty of my college would have to evidence that they actually got something out of this, rather than feel

They had been wrongly portrayed in the media or something like that if the faculty- and there are many good faculty who do understand what's going on so they have been quiet because, frankly, they're afraid of what happens to them, if they're, not but but George, has to step down or be fired in, the faculty have to rally an evidence that they learn something and then the third thing, and in some ways this is the one that is, I think, the toughest they came after me, they came after two other people, the chief of police of our police force, Stacy Brown, who they have been attempt. She is a utterly professional.

Stream League good police officer, who is also an evergreen graduate and interested in cleaning up policing. She wants she's, aware of what bad policing is and what campus please correct. This police we've. So it's independent of the the region right, which is why they were stood. Down because they are part of the administration is- is has control over them, but the proof of police was demonized and I mean in the most disgusting ways, posters of her wearing a KKK outfit in some sort of I don't know what sex step garb was distributed on the this is a mother of three right and what was what was the logic behind it? Well, no, I hate to say it, but the logic, I think think was the saying that circulates all cops are bad, so she was literally her. Her swearing in was protested. So at the very moment she took the job. She was already persona non grata. They want no police

Well, I know in fact they advocated for that there was in the middle of this protest. There was a something like a police community review, but I'm not sure exactly, but school, but there was some sort of a gathering where suggestions about better policing where advanced and the protesters actually danced, not only the idea that the police be moved off campus, that they'd be disarmed, but that in fact, that campus policing be turned over to what they call community police. So at the very same moment that you have protesters as judge, jury and executioner searching cars for people stalking them their tail sing us that actually they want uh social control over the policing of the campus. It couldn't. It couldn't be more ironic. So how do they plan to handle sexual assault? Violence?

anything along those lines. Funny you made on sexual assault, because the third which, in addition to me and the chief of police was, is our grievance officer. Our grievance officer, Andy Siebert, is a also an excellent human being who is very dedicated to her job and very dedicated evergreen and has been there for a very long time, and one of the things that she's been accused of is not being sensitive to allegations of sexual assault. Now what she has not said in her own defense fees so interested in protecting the college from its own worst instincts that which he has not said in her own defense- is that she runs a summer camp for girls who have been sexually assaulted. This is the end, I think chief funds it out of our own pocket. So in all three cases, in my case, I'm accused of being a racist in Stacey Brown. The T police Chiefs case she's accused

is being a brutal, biased and an Anti Siebert's case he's accused of being insensitive to people who have been assaulted in all three cases. Not only are these things wrong, they are the opposite of right, and so I was just going to say. The third thing that I wanted to say was George has to step down. The faculty has to wake up, and then everybody needs to take a look at the fact that three for three they've gone after people in classic witch hunting style and the person in question was the exact opposite of what they were. Saying that the point you discover that you've been hunting which is, and then it turns out. The people in question are innocent. You have to step back and ask yourself how you got there How did that happen to you that you ended up hunting innocent people? That should be a wake up call for everybody involved. Well as soon as you start talking about searching for cars and searching for individuals, my mind immediately escalates to violence that

How my mind goes when I I know mobs- and I know people and I I just have far too much. Violence- and I know what happens when people ramp up ideas without a real pre- did open gold. They don't have like what we'd like to do is get br and talk to him. One on one inmate would want to invite him to have a debate, a one on one, debate with someone without an audience, so they could sit down and hash out these ideas. Well, hey you're working with something well, how do we find them? Well, babies in one of these cars, like that? That's not what they're doing right right now. I think we're going to find him but they don't have a step after they're, going to find you and less they do and it might be fucking. Barbaric. I mean it might be. You know we're going to kidnap him, we're going to force him to read this letter. You know I mean in this literally hostage shit. I agree, and I do think you know

I don't I don't know, I'm not an expert on what happens when mobs ultimately do something you know like. I think it's Marshall Con who was killed by by a mob over supposed blasphemy this last month, but was that in Turkey I thought I was in Pakistan was in Turkey, okay, but all right, I'm sorry! I should that's alright, but that's a different man world in different, it's yeah, but nonetheless the point is a jobs, a thinks that it's on the right track and it's so convinced of what it believes that ends up doing something that it doesn't know. It's capable of. It is also a diffusion of responsibility in a large group. They're allowed allowed to do much more horrific things. You would ever do one on one to an individual one hundred percent. So I don't think that anyone intends that, but I'm not sure that they ever do well. The ramping up

things is what terrifies me. I just I've just seen it too many times where people get together in large groups of people and things escalate, and no one knows why and then all the sudden it's chaos and there's an a literal feeling in the air that violence interrupt. I don't know if there's maybe you'd be able to tell me. Is there some evolutionary echo of that from back in the day when we would get invaded by large groups of people and we had to switch over immediately to some sort of a war like mindset. I don't know what it is, but there's something really bizarre that happens to people in large groups and if you've ever been in in a concert where riot breaks out or stampede where things go crazy? It's scary! It's terrifying! Well, you're, absolutely

right about the evolutionary roots that these are programs that exist in us four circumstances and one of the things- and you know it if I had been able to give the lecture that I proposed in the letter that got me in so much trouble with people. One of the things that I would say is that the most dangerous thing is that we have these latent programs that are waiting for evidence that it is the moment to do X, Y Z and because we haven't been in those circumstances until the moment those programs are triggered. We don't even we're not even aware that human beings are capable of some of the things they're capable of so we have to guard against these things at all. Costs. If we really you know never again, is a the important concept and if never again, is to mean anything. We have to understand why it happens in the first place so that we can repair the world, so it becomes impossible, yes, instead of giving into the influence of these ancient programs understanding there their their and recognizing them when they go

live exactly in fact. Maybe the thing that would be worth remembering is what happens to a drowning person when a person drowns their very dangerous right, because, they their body switches on a drowning program. That basically looks for anything that can be pushed down, so you can get up to where the areas yeah, which means that somebody can drown. You know their closest kin by accident because as a drowning program that they've never seen active until the first time they face drowning is suddenly online right, and so that's a simple one. But there are other ones to their ones for for tyranny, and I I believe things like genocide where populations that I have successfully eliminated. Other populations have done well,

and so, knowing that human beings are actually wired for genocide under some circumstances is well, it's a sobering responsibility. But it's also hopeful to me, because if you know that it's there, you can figure out what triggers that and you can. I think we can rule it out by raising people in an environment where awareness of that program allows us to teach them in such a way that that program is the act and that might be the only way to be. You must be aware of the fact that there is a potential to disassociate decide that this is the that this group of people is the other and that they are you and you could do horrific things to them This is literally a part of how human beings evolved to twenty seventeen, how we got through all the horrific things that have in place in the past and if you think about the the religious innovations that have occurred in the history of most of the populations on earth.

They involve a recognition at some point where the definition of self gets broadened to a larger group. So if you think about, for example, the golden rule, the golden rule has has progenitors in the hell tradition, but it, It's basically somebody saying some large entity needs to be treated as some extension of self, and really this is may sound funny to people, but if we are to survive the next century as a as a species, it's going to have to be through the recognition that actually all human beings are trapped on one tiny little planet and we're in severe jeopardy, and really we have to start treating each other, not as other, because we will you know we will

fighting each other as the whole experiment goes to Hell. We have to recognize that we actually face a common enemy, which is the unintended consequences of the system we built. Never like to bring up Ronald Reagan as the voice of reason. He had a fantastic quote way back in the day, one of his speeches during the cold war, where he was talking about how we would bond together if we were approached by some alien life form from another planet that threatened us. How we would all realize that we are, we are all in this together. I had. Idea that he said said that a great speech, because the conspiracy theorists went crazy. No, like there's a well I I think this is totally right and here's the even outer part, I think which is yeah. If there was a an alien race that came to invade the earth, we'd rally, if there was an asteroid that we had enough time to

No, that was coming in that we would have to rally together to do something about it. We do something about it, and so it is perfectly possible for the mechanisms that evolution built into us to fight each other, that caused us to cooperate to fight other groups to be re targeted at things that aren't of the groups that are problems, and so what frustrates me more than I think anything else is right now we do face a common enemy and that common enemy is, you know, let's say, climate change would be one facet of it, but it's the system that set climate change in motion which has also given us nuclear reactors that are unstable and difficult to control. It's given us economic policies that are going to cause us to destabilize as a result of concentration of well being and power in a small number of hands, those are common enemies and if we allowed the circuitry that is in us to be triggered that allows us to fight. A common enemy. Actually, we would be quite united at the moment and for a good cause,

which is one of the more disturbing things about Trump pulling out of the Paris climate agreement. Is that what what it says is that we're not in this together? I mean, but even more so than it says that these guys are mean he has advisors in this EPA guy is very dangerous character. That's climate change denier and there's so much I science going on this administration. You could even know where to begin right, but one of the real problems is it were moving away from. This group of people is trying to figure out what to do about emissions. What what do we do about all this garb, what do we do about all this waste? It's now even necessarily just about climate change? It's about sustainability, it's about what we doing with the byproduct of civilization. If there's one thing that should cut across political lines, it's that question what we do, about the things that jeopardizes altogether and if it's one thing that should disturb us about capitalism, the number one thing is putting

ahead of the environment that we literally need to sustain life and that's something trying to do with bringing back fucking Cole Cole of all things- and they have these coal miners on tv, and they don't even agree with it- they have that they end a bunch of coal miners. Today they were President Trump supporters. There were a happy. They voted for Trump because he's going to bring back coal and the well, I don't know about this. Why stepping away from the climate change thing, though, like even people and the coal mining industry are torn on this I mean this is a very dark time in that way up very dark and you know and ironic too, because I mean we're now behind the eight ball, because we've put this off for so long. We should have started doing this twenty five or thirty years ago, but even now it is actually not as hard as people think to figure out how the world might function that didn't create this jeopardy as a matter of byproducts of everyday activity. It's actually not that difficult, but the system is

built to frustrate it? So you know in the same sense, if you step back from the last presidential election and you think about. How is it that we ended up with two such lousy candidates for this position with such power? Something in the system has to be off that we don't end up with any viable candidates for that office, and it's same it's the same problem we are. We are caught in loops that prevent proper solution, making it's not that solution, making isn't possible. It's that solution making is not someplace. We can so from here because of mundane reasons in our system that are ultimately going to kill us. If we're not careful. It's also such a complicated structure that, outside of completely radical change like restructuring everything from the bottom up like tearing it down literally to the foundation and rebuilding it. How else are you going to fix this thing? Lobbyists and special interest groups and congressman

representative government? It's like there's so many different areas that allow for the lily of corruption and influence and just Cronyism, it's just it's such a dark and twisted corridor that you enter into if you're consider any kind of reform. Well, it can't be reformed and it's not going to. We can't tear it down either. I mean well what we do Well, that's an interesting question. I must say it's something that a number of friends of mine and I have been working on for some time. There are answers which. Five seven years ago, I wouldn't have thought possible that I now believe actually are possible, and so what we're really talking about? We can't have revolution. We can't afford it normal, work. The power arrayed against revolution is so immense that it's inconceivable that it could it could function. We also can't afford. A disruption massive enough to cause the system to restructure on it

on, if for no other reason than the fact that we've got more than four hundred nuclear reactors on earth today that require constant inputs of power or they melt down and spill, not only the contents of the reactors, but the contents of the spent fuel pools where we've stored decades worth of spent material. So basically we have to restructure the system without letting it collapse and without confronting it in the traditional way. So we need effectively revolutionary change without revolution, however, noticed that your life today doesn't look all that much like your life thirty years ago. From the point of view of how you go about things, how you navigate around the world, things sweep across civilization in a market system based on utility and that model can also be used to replace the system that we have.

I have currently so in essence, if you think forward what is what is the world going to look like twenty years from now? It's very hard to know, because you know how much change has come in the last twenty years, so there will be revolutionary change at the moment. It will be dictated by a market, and it will basically give us more of what we think we want, rather than what we actually need. However, the same mechanism that causes technologies to sweep across civilization can be utilized to have of meaningful change in the way we inter relate with each other. The way we govern ourselves sweep across civilization. So that's the project that we've been working on find the scenes. So what is the project like? How does it work? Well, it involves different people with different expertise, and there are those

who are expert in the technological aspects, in other words, identifying those technologies that actually stand a good chance of replacing the dangerous stuff that run civilization. Now there are those of us who are involved in the game theoretic aspects of what it is that keeps the current system stabilized as it is, and what would have to change in order to replace it. So, anyway, it's a complicated effort, but it is not. I am hopeful in a way that I wasn't MAC during occupy, let's say, b cause. I no longer think that the only route forward is one of the traditional modes that we've seen so. Do you think that it's going to be a slow integration of technology into peoples lives to the point where it's going to affect the sis, some itself to the point where the current system, the way it works, just won't operate the way?

No, not really. What are you saying specifically? What I'm saying specifically is that people have been shut out of the gains of civilization and they have been fed a small portion of the phony growth that our system generates to placate them. They've also been threatened with austerity, which is largely a false threat, in other words, they've been told. Yes, we could do something different, but you're going to have to give up of the things that you value. So how about it- and in fact the world could be a very exciting place to transform if we work to recognize the real landscape that we face rather than the story that has been portrayed, that has told us that we really don't have any good options. It seems that there

there is still time, though, frankly, the clock is ticking. So what would be the steps that would be taken in order make this a reality. Well, question is: do I want to say that out loud here, where the entities that want to oppose you know exactly what it is before it comes? I don't know how mark that is. What I will say is that there are a good number of us working on the puzzle were serious about it and we are the things that would typically be is to dismiss us ought not be we're not looking too to be the head. Of some system that enriches us. We're looking to make the planet function in a way that serves everyone, so do you think, there's some sort of conspiracy to stop this like. If you actually bring it up, you think that they would actually be people that would make or take act. The measures in order to hold it off at the pass

I don't think it's exactly like that. I think there is a structure that has emerged that exists, um administrations come and go, but there's a structure that doesn't and it seems to have a central principle behind it, which is it doesn't like change that it can't control change, is one thing change happens, but it's not interested in change. That could upended so anyway, it the reason that we end up with a battle between and non viable Republican. Nonviable Democrat is that they have passed a test in which they do not threaten the fundamental structures underneath, in fact, Trump may actually be a violation of that. He may actually threaten those structures and they may be trying to figure out

do about him, but but in general, what we have is a system that filters on the way towards the levers of power such that anybody who, Is there wouldn't use them in a stabilizing fashion, which is why we saw the Dnc conspire against Bernie Sanders. Absolutely we saw them, can spy error in the most direct terms, and then we've seen them in court defended by saying that had every right to do it rather than denying it yeah. So anyway, I'm not. You know it's too easy to say conspiracy, and it is too it's too simplistic, because it implies that people got gather in a room and said things out loud, and that does happen sometimes, but it also through another mechanism mechanism of but scientifically, we would call emergence where those structures that frustrate change out compete, structures that

wow change. So it may be that what we have our forces that resist change reflexively without no And what they're doing the same way? You know a tree grows toward the light, without knowing what it's doing. Oh don't you think, though, that there be some benefit to discussing these potential. Solutions to these issues out loud and then people would so of like pick it up and act on it, especially given this enormous platform. I do so it's not that I don't want to talk about might mean in fact, we've we held a called an unconference conference in Palo Alto several months ago. Not that we don't talk about them out loud. What I'm concerned about is that a I'm only one of people involved, and so you know I have my area of expertise in this group, but there are many other areas of expertise that I can't speak to as directly

so anyway, I'm concerned about unearthing the thing. A place where it will be a cartoon version of something that's actually more sophisticated than that. I understand that. I'm not I'm, not, I'm not averse to answering questions if you got him What would be the first step? Well, the first step. It would probably involve blockchain currency that had strengths connected to it that made it competitively superior to something like the dollar

in other words the dollar, is a flawed entity in multiple regards. But the dollar depends on our value in it, and the thing about blockchain currencies is that blockchain currencies can be exchanged between entities that have an agreement about preferring them. So, for example, a group of people could decide to pay each other in in blockchain, current, be of some kind based on ideals that are not the same ones on which you know are our nation. Free sample is found it. So you could agree to a higher set of standards for something and agree to prefer each other in the context of business. So you would, you would do business with those who had also agreed to the same higher set of principles and that currency could therefore.

This place, something like the dollar will be fascinating. To see what I mean, I know the bit coin and block chain a lot lot of these different crypto currencies are gaining momentum and in fact, bit coin were we just talking about this is higher now that it has been like, literally in years ever ever so there's some momentum in that regard to be nice to see them use side by side. You know to see if it could be possible to gain more momentum to get to the point where it's, me right now you bring up I'm going to buy some a bitcoin people think you're a freak like my friend and Andreas Antonopoulos who's big in the Bitcoin movement. I've had him on the podcast a few times he's written books on it and he does everything in bitcoins paid get coin, advises airline tickets and Bitcoin pays his rent in Bitcoin mean he's he's deep, but it may the blood is one of one thousand people in the world. That might do that right. Although you know everything transformative starts in a

small minority of people doing it somewhere. So what I would say wait is that the crypto currency isn't enough in and of itself, you have to couple it with the structures that are capable of solving the other problems of civilization. Also someone figuring out what to do with nuclear waste. That would be a nice one. That's a biggie right, that's a big and it's high on my list of of. Let's say fears is that those nuclear reactors are so dangerous by virtue of what it is that keeps them stable day in and day out, yeah that really, if people understood the danger they face, based on on those reactors on the spent fuel that they they have people, we be alarmed. Well, if people just pay attention to Fukushima, I mean just look what's happening and know how many of those there are and here's the other issue. You know I've talked to people before and there's I mean it's it's it's really funny how,

when you subscribe to a certain ideology, whether it's a liberal ideology or whether it's conservative ideology, you meet Lee immediately adopt a series of beliefs that go along with that, and one of them on the right is that nuclear power is clean energy. You know, and my arg into that has always been. We've only had it for sixty years and look how many places you can even go anymore. I mean Fukushima, Chernobyl what does it three mile island view my allowance three rounds of? Can you go there? Now I wouldn't go there, it be the best of those three, but we also have the whip project in New Mexico yeah. The the number of places on earth you can just simply no longer go is growing in its place, is a Nevada where they just bury the waste or they just bury their waste Hanford. It just had a huge collapse, so Let's put it this way. We now know how dangerous this technology is an. We also know that what we were too

cold when it was invented, I mean everything we were told. We were told electricity too, cheap to meter. For one thing, we were also told will figure out what to do the waste and true and not true, not true, and here's? What's really terrifying mean every now, and then we, you know they're digging in Mexico City and they find some ancient aztec ruins and they have to stop construction 'cause, it didn't know it was there with the fuck happen have one hundred years from now, they dig into the Nevada, desert and just tap right into a chamber of spam fuel rods and kill everybody. I in fact that's one of the problems that they've tried to solve is how do you? How do you make a sign for people, you know a thousand years in future one hundred years right. We have no idea how you would warn them off. Nor are these things stable. I mean the thing about the whip project in New Mexico is that you know this was supposed to be stable for thousands of years, and we had this explosion that leaked plutonium. You know after decade

the thing was not stable. The way we were told it was, and so anyway, we have this terrible problem, and what to do with the waste you've already got is obviously a huge issue not making more of it would be a really good idea. Yeah and there I've been some solutions that someone there was a really young kid. I believe that came out with some radical proposal for taking the nuclear waste and converting it into energy that could power cities for thousands of years, whether or not it's viable in a bit. I mean it's totally possible. I mean it look if we, if someone can come up with nuclear energy in the first place the ability to split an atom and power a city. Maybe it is possible that someone could figure out what to do with that way, some new sort of radical approach to looking at it, but can't just leave it now. You can't just keep doing what we're doing over and over again and hope that we don't make more spots where you can't live well, I mean the first thing is

there is one thing we can do with it, it's better that we already have the technology to do and there's no excuse for not doing it, which is that all of the stuff that sitting in pools that has to be actively cooled after something like five years. It can be put in dry cask storage, which ain't perfect, but at least it doesn't require some system to actively keep it from boiling over and doesn't need electricity in order to cool it. Exactly should that happen in Fukushima and that's strictly a matter of money right. We could do that tomorrow. We could just require it, and we should because it's vastly safer, we could also. Potentially there are ways to take the spent fuel and to burn it down. That does involve other kinds of reactors, but ultimately, ultimately, I can't under and why we have not made an immense investment in fusion power, were we to discover the ability to make viable fusion power, which I believe we know is possible?

We not only would be able to power civilization without warming the climate, but we would also be able to full carbon out of the atmosphere if it turns out that we need to do that. If you have effectively unlimited source of power, you can take carbon out of the atmosphere and you could turn it into building materials that were stable for thousands of years and the tiny amount that we spend on a fusion research is inexplicable to me. Yeah. We Button way away from the original subject, but I think this is also very important stuff, but I wanted to talk to about evolutionary biology, alright and being uh. Someone who teaches that and being as that's your discipline, an I'm seeing all of these been what it. What is it like? Being a professor awesome, being someone who's studying this stuff and then seeing all these weird tray It's in all these weird personality aspects?

themselves, in these times of crisis like seeing these these situations your time at people. Yes, well, that's an interesting! I have become fascinated. I didn't start out studying people, but the longer I proceed in evolutionary biology, the more interested I am in people, and, let's put it this way. Sometimes something is surprising, but in general, if you have the right tools to understand people, an evolutionary evolutionary level things make a certain amount of sense they are. I have something I say to students frequently which, if a situation is confusing with people very often it makes more sense if you turn the sound all the way down. So you can't hear what they're actually saying, because very often, what's being enacted between people,

isn't really about the content of what they're saying it's about something else, and so let's take, for example, my first project when I was an undergraduate, I was studying with a very famous evolutionary biologist named Bob Rivers, and I wrote a paper for for his class and it was about the the holocaust it was about the really I was testing the question at the time. It was relatively common place to hear that

Hitler was insane and something about that didn't ring true to me, and I wanted to know evolutionarily speaking was he insane and in studying that question it became very clear that insane was the wrong description, that he was a monster, but he was a rational monster from the point of view of advancing german jeans, and that was a very troubling discovery to me that, in effect, what he was doing was it mean it's the worst thing imaginable, but from the point of view of jeans that are attempting to spread across the globe and exclude alternative jeans from access to resources, it was perfectly reasonable

not only what he did to to Jews and homosexuals and trial as witnesses, but the military plan. The future of Germany lies in Russia. The idea was that this was actually a sophisticated plan that would have advance the cause of spreading german jeans spectacularly had frame please so many million Russians not been ready to give their lives to turn the german war machine around. So what I'm saying this this has to be dealt with carefully because people hear you say that and they think that you're justifying it, but in arm of course it had to do you know whose ancestors were from Europe. There's there's no part of me that is in any anyway, okay with what half

quite the opposite, but understanding that, even though the Darwinism that Hitler was deploying was deformed and not not accurate, indefensible in a logical sense, the plan he was advancing was german jeans attempting to take over a larger frac June of the the resources the planet earth has to offer than they had available to them at that point in the thirties. So anyway, what I'm trying to say is that the

something that we we often teach students first, when we get him, which is called the naturalistic fallacy, it means that just because something is true doesn't mean it's good, that it ought to be true and so discovering the nature of something like the Holocaust is very important in the sense that it allows you to grapple with it logically, but as your grappling with it, logically, people want to imagine that you're saying it was okay and that's the opposite. There are many things that are true for evolutionary reasons that are completely unacceptable understanding. What those things are gives you a pretty good shot at preventing them from from unfold. It is also really is a problem with something becomes taboo to even consider hard to to look at. Like you, you would you can't look at the idea that he wasn't insane and that he was in fact rational in rationalizing his horrific acts and that there was some sort of a plan to it all, and

I would say that, even by enacting that planned, you would be insane in terms of how it you think of the world, and I think of the world like if we found out that Jamie over here was thinking about art, a master race and killing everybody off Food Co. James Caan, saying I mean that's like the to say no is not insane. He has a rational plan map again immediately. People would want justify any horrific could say about you just to be clear that, he's is not doing okay, James Good, fair enough, like sports political reason, do now, but but having taboo subjects are having things you cannot consider, even if you clearly not a racist person, even you're, clearly not a person without advocates genocide that the idea that intellectual discussions cannot be pursued about specific topics. Well, the first thing: if you're going to

go into evolutionary biology, especially if you're going to get anywhere near human beings. You have to really put aside the idea of taboo in international space. You have to be able to consider everything, because I'm so much of the story is, you know it goes from bizarre to horrifying. You know, there's all great beauty. One of the important things to remember is that the evolutionary the adaptive process, the adaptive evolutionary process, gave us not only our worst characteristics, our tendency to to war and genocide into oppression, but he gave us our best characteristics to our capacity to love, to empathize, to be compassionate to sacrifice for others. So all of those things, our evolutionary products- and you know the the message I try to convey to people when I talk about this- is that we have to pick and choose which of

the evolutionary pride and products we want to honor and preserve and which of them we wish to bar from the landscape. This is really what civilization is about. Civilization is about taking the whole spectrum of things that were capable of and providing a landscape for the ones that are honorable and good and making the ones that aren't honorable and good so expensive that nobody would consider engaging in them. Now, when you're in the middle of this crazy scenario that you find yourself in, and what you know what you know about evolutionary biology in about the mechanisms behind human behavior and.

How do you? How do you get back to work? Well, I'm lucky in that the freedom that Evergreen offers me to teach. What I want, how I want you can teach outside of the school mean you'd, be surprised. My contract doesn't even mention biology. I can teach what I want, so you could teach like football scores. I could teach dance I mean like really I mean I'm not a good dancer. So I can't but, but I could teach pottery doesn't matter, I'm what so. What that means for my perspective is that I'm able to take the stuff, I'm intellectually interested in and I'm able to make it my teaching life as well, and that has worked beautifully. I've really had a great time, bringing students in on what I think is the cutting edge of evolutionary theory.

Many of them have rallied, so you know it. It's a lot like having graduate students who are deeply interested in the same material and are able to play ball because you know they they take on the two, Tool kit, they learn to use it, and so anyway, my intellectual life is quite rich and it it involves undergraduate students, which is a pretty unusual, pretty unusual thing, but it does work pretty well. How do you get back to work at your school, though? Is that what you're asking yeah I mean? How does that even happen? Arts? A tough quest, and so you're. Confronted with the very real possibility that your days at Evergreen might be over well, there's a practical question: I don't think they can fire me because I haven't done anything wrong, so that means I can go back to work in the fall and I don't have another plan

I'm, on the other hand, you're saying in the fall your your school. How much longer does this semester have? Well, my and in June or July I unfortunately have a conference that I have to. I mean it's not, unfortunately, I have it, but I have a conference that unfortunately interfaces with the end of the quarter, such that I had to wrap my program up early and I met with my program for the last time yesterday, after the campus had close, we met in park again meeting in the park. Well, we weren't safe to be on campus, so we started. Doing that as an alternative. How many students I I'm supposed to have twenty five? I have thirty two. So who are the extra ones, people who beg to get into the program, and I couldn't turn him away- ah you're sweet. So now you meet in the park. Are you worried that someone's going to find out where your meeting and you won't be saved there.

You know I mean I don't go anywhere without thinking about it. So, yes, I'm concerned So it's really gotten that that crazy. In in your mind that you You have to worry if you're going to the supermarket or you have to worry if you're. I never know what I'm going to encounter and you know I'm not a big worry or on that front, I'm more or less feel like if I encounter somebody they're probably going to be upset, and especially if there are a large number of them. Actually, I could probably talk to him and get somewhere. On the other hand, given what people think is true about me an what they think the rules are with respect to what they're there for entitled to do. I don't know I really don't know what could happen wow. Well, what can be done or what should be done about some of the? I don't want to use the term Cray.

Easy, but some of the more rambunctious students that are apart This I mean there, it doesn't seem like they're, going to just change their behavior and go back to just being a normal inquisitive. Young person trying to figure out the world. It's like there's so embroiled in this ideology. It seems and they've, given them so much ground. It's like how do you stop this and we when you've held the fucking President hostage and told we can't go to the bathroom without representatives of your militant group watching MP, where does it go from there. Well, I should say what I said: I don't know five hundred and ten minutes ago probably sounded a little utopian, I'm not a utopian, I'm quite I think Utopia might be the worst idea humans ever had so what I'm saying should be a worst. Or cost.

Well I mean the Holocaust was utopian. I guess it was right. That was the idea, so so yes that I think that, but most people think of you open is like some moment in time, but we all sort of like. Oh, what are we doing? Let's work together, let's all be nice right! Well, people I mean you know you tell them yeah, hoping ideas of utopia, yes, that well they very impractical ideas. They think they a They think they know enough about the way things work to describe a good state for things to reach, and they tend to focus on one thing that they want to make better and ignore all of the harms that will come. If they engage in it anyway I'm not I'm, not a utopian, and what about to say about what could happen at evergreen is not utopian in nature, but I do think Evergreen was as

described earlier is really the tip of something. What happened at Evergreen is so extreme, and the way it looks to the world is so preposterous that I do think. I do hope that the academy is hitting bottom, that in seeing this little preview of where these things go. If they are allowed to to have all of their own accord, that people will wake up and they will realize actually as hard as it is to challenge the stuff. We have to do it, because if we don't this is what happens now. That said on our campus, if, if we get rid of a few bad actors, starting with the President, and we recognize that we have ended up in some new landscape where up is down. It is also possible that we could find we could find a new comp kind of common ground

so, do you think you could find a new common ground with these students that are screaming in the streets? Hey, hey hey ho ho these races teachers have got to go. I know This is going to sound crazy and some people are not going to understand why, when you know my family and students have been threatened, I would I would even talk like To be honest, I understand why they would say that, but but the difference is, can you talk to him in? a small group of people where they could be reached because indeed many of them are reachable. Or do you have to talk to the entire mob, in which case yes it's absolutely impossible. Isn't it also a problem in that when people dig their heels into the sand and they decide that this is how things are and then even when confronted with the disability they may have been incorrect or wrong or acted irrationally. It's very difficult for people to admit that, and reconcile and step back and maybe just self assess.

Somebody has to blaze the trail. In other words, I find myself accidentally in the position of blazing a particular trail of how do you stare down and accusation of racism. So someone from that side has to blaze a trail. Somebody from the realize, hey Brett, is the opposite of racist were being silly here. We all have a comma. Enemy in the common enemy is real racism good and and this is why I said recognizing that you have been involved in a witch hunt. That's the moment at which You know you either level up where you don't, when you realize you've been in aged in a witch hunt. That's the moment at which you can discover there's something fundamental, that's wrong in my. Program somewhere that allowed that to happen. Maybe that would be a subject that someone could teach as, of course, you know like how campus ideology, goes amok, absolutely how things go mock. I mean in fact.

It's not exactly that and it was planned long before this protest erupted, but I'm scheduled next spring to teach with another professor. Program on essentially the evolutionary origins of human violence wow, so when when you think about everything coming, do you have like a vision in your mind about how everything would sort of the dust will settle, and this president hopefully will either resign or be forced out, and then what do you do? these students that you looked at in the and they were screaming at you calling you a racist telling you to resign like how do you deal with that when you go back to school? Well, I mean if they were willing to listen. I could deal with it. The thing that is, I think, hard to appreciate from the outside a little bit is that be cause?

I know that there's nothing to the accusation and because so many students know that there's nothing to the accusation. It doesn't hurt in the same way that it would. If I had serious doubts about myself, disregard. So if they were to come around, you know we could make it happen. That said, that's not the direction things are going. As of this morning, Lee he, the internal list of the the faculty and staff was headed in exactly the wrong direction. What is the list? Look? What a Were they trying to do? Well, they imagine that this entire catastrophe e, including the closing of the campus yesterday and today, is the result of the. I think it was six minutes I spent on Tucker Carlson yeah, you got on Fox NEWS, you summon the demon I mean those airwaves are immoral, yeah yeah. So

have they literally said that that you should not have gone on Fox news? Oh that's beyond that their point is this here we go every evergreen state faculty demand punishment of white professor who refused to leave an anti white day. Oh it's anti white day, that's even more interesting wow came out today might have came out since we started the podcast too. I'm not sure when this hit Was it the college fix dot com that a minute that this is describing? What's in the letter at the contents of the letter right here, I've been we did it a few times to make a little larger. For me, we acknowledged All of us have power within the institution, oh who have power within these. The institution share. Responsibility for the racist actions of others. Furthermore, is those of us who are white, bear particularly large share of that responsibility. Oh god, we've.

How we have a great deal of work to do in order to honor and live up to the demands made by the student leaders, though students are leaders. Oh yeah after leaders like how, in Yale the students that stared down the professor and physically threatened him they, where they were actually it would awards where they wasn't. One of them given some sort of a acknowledgement of like being a leader, will find Jane will find that, but we acknowledge, We have a great deal of work to do in order to honor and live up to the demands made by the student leaders during last week's protests. We acknowledge, as this of color and others who are under represented and underserved, have been voicing their demands to us for some time through the students of color focus groups of twenty fourteen through their participation in anchoring the strategic equity plan

for November in Cooper Point Journal, blah blah blah and we have not yet truly listened and acted with knowledge, since right to protest in a firm president, three which is recent decision not to use the Miss God, the language of the current student contact. What is that current student conduct code to punish the protesters? What the language of the current student conduct code? Hey, hello, fine now, but be, I believe, what they're talking about is the president said that that students would not be held accountable. Trapped in my class, and then I believe he agreed to their demand for student of thorny over any changes to the conduct codes of the students who are engaged in this. I hope this is right. I don't want to say something it's untrue, but my understanding was that he agreed to that the man we vehement we reject the claim the students have been violent simply because they have been loud and emphatic. There is a difference between exercising the right to free

give voice an opinion and inciting violence, and that difference has nothing to do with the volume of four. So that's not true, because were they were upset that he was moving his hands. They calling that aggression. And now they're saying that On the other hand, she children scream I'm calling children. Now we support demands made by students and honor the positive institutional change they already achieved through their protest. That's hilarious, most urgent. Anne's below center on the safety of those individuals who are currently most at risk, at the same mean like the professor At the same time, we acknowledge that in weeks and months to come, our attention will need to turn to the larger structural issues students have identified and how he was students. We commit ourselves to participating actively and self critically in the annual mandatory trainings specify I'd in the memorandum of understanding recently signed by the. U was us EAST for that's our union, United Faculty

and management bargaining teams holding each other accountable when we act the racist ways against our Carly or our students. Okay. Well, then, why don't you hold yourself accountable that you acquiesced to a anti white day? That's that's racist right, but but what's going to happen here is this is going to be intolerable, re education by people who, frankly I I it pains me to say it but they're the most racist people on campus. I mean that's what this is this racism? It just happens to be in an unfamiliar direction, but it's racism they also are going to be in charge of of sensitivity. Training here which to me is the height of insanity, so scroll up a little bit in solidarity with students. We call for the evergreen this way. I creation to center student perspectives in a persistent media approach. Was

we go to can fruits that counter that all right, narratives that are demonizing evergreen? Okay, do you have an all right movement at all? I agree if I read that correctly I am now in the alt right, so you're, not writer, I guess so are demonising evergreen and day of absence is specifically wow pursue instant media approach was that you going on Tucker Carlson, it's that must be it yeah. So you have to break this down like it's code like we're not going to speak in English reading Hieroglyphs here, persistent media approach, persistent yeah. Am I all right you are now. I might be people think I am because it had all right people on is to stop war, but then conveniently when I have liberals on I'm a fucking raging, liberal God, take seriously the threats made to the individual community. Members all are to an individual community migrant you're about to get to me here. Views available institutional resources to protect them demonstrate a can.

Ability by pursuing a disciplinary investigation against Bret Weinstein according to guidelines in the social contract contact contract rather and call the handbook Weinstein, has endangered faculty staff and students making them targets of white Supremacists backglass by promulgating misinformation in public emails on national television in news outlets, and social media. That is a very, very broad. You should sue. That's a hell of a bold plan. Huh you should sue just for that. You have endangered faculty staff and students see the problem with that statement is someone just read that now

and and and use that as a quote and just start saying that as if it's fact Well- let's, let's just let's just deal with this for a second get in ways, please, okay, so that that is a very interesting bullet point. The fact is, I have gone on. Media media has come to me. What I have done is, I have pointed to videos of the pro masters themselves, put up that because the world to say what the hell is going on in evergreen, and this resulted. The entire thing has unfolded. I've been fighting this a year trying to point out to my colleagues that they were making terrible errors. This is all result of reforms put in motion by president bridges, so they are now blaming me and I should say I do think there is jeopardy on the campus. We had a threat, yes, today, from somebody have no idea how serious it was, but I do believe that there is jeopardy to people on our campus. What specifically was the threat? It was at a threat from

A white supremacist group was a threat from the pro protestor group, like it wasn't specific, but so what I all I can say is that I got what I was told was a transcript of the call. I cannot vouch for it because I don't have access to you know somebody could be probably getting a house. I don't know right what it said was that they were coming to campus, I think with a magnum, and they were gonna kill, as many as they could is what they said, they do. We can play the audio

yeah. Yes, I'm on my way to Evergreen University. Now with a forty four magnum, I'm going to execute as many people on. I can't, because I can get all that you have that, what's going on there communists from background, I had a murder as many think one. I can't this is like a fair. Just keep your keep your just keep your, your eyes open, scumbag, ok! First of all, a there guys full of shit bees in amateur 'cause. A forty four magnum holds six rounds. Mostly maybe five might even be five row or is that a desert eagle that guys a bullshit artist? Forty four magnum you don't specify the round we're going to use. Nor does that weapon make any sense, but but nonetheless the point is his dirty harry. He thinks so

right, but you know I I I don't want to belittle people jeopardy. I have to say you might have been crazy and that he might have actually been really wanting to do that. He could have done right and it could happen and I'd buy. I think the jeopardy to blonde campus is real and I live right adjacent to campus, and I must tell you I brought my family with me, because I don't feel that they are safe there at the moment. The question is: how is it that we have reached the point of deciding that this jeopardy is from me Well that's horrific. What they've done is so irresponsible in releasing that and making a public, it's so irresponsible and and so so so silly that they don't the lies that other people are going to see through that. So clearly, well many scene information and like what misinformation? What specifically, they should be very specific when they accused

of misinformation. They should be very specific if there going so far as to say that you are and somehow or another summoning the all right and get a bit bit big make. Bing misinformation public on mass media. What is that misinformation? Well, I know because I've been watching the email traffic right, so their claim is that white people were not asked to leave campus, that there were only two hundred spaces in the venue off campus and therefore this was just supposed to be for a small subset of people, which is nonsense. There were only two hundred spaces if

wanted to go to the particular seminars that they were holding, for example, the one about why Asians were part of the problem until they had a seminar on Asians being a problem or a presentation of some kind. That is really racist. I believe so, but in any case they are conflating the two hundred spaces off campus with what was actually expected of us, and it was quite clear in fact one of my they staff colleagues put out an email boy. Time is gone into some weird thing, but I think it was last night in which he detailed the several emails that we had seen in which the school did ask white people to leave for that day, so they are promoting falsehoods themselves designed to obscure. What's going on, I think because they finally understood that the world doesn't get what they were doing well. Do they not understand that this is a trail. That's going to be released like that. This is actual data and that this data, They accused you of misinformation, and then you have all of this data, and then you could just

like release it to everybody like hey. This is the actual emails. Clearly is six what you're saying it makes you a liar right, several people. In fact, many people have now started to refer to what's going on in the staff faculty zone here as a cult, and I think you know, on the one hand, that could be tongue in cheek. On the other hand, the mechanisms at work that have people doubling down on absurdities rather than trying to get on the right side of history as quickly as possible. It is very cult like and again that you know the you asked me what would have to happen for us to to write this,

ship, the second one is that my faculty colleagues have to wake up to the fact that their belief structure is become bizarre, an unrecognizable from any normal position and very dangerous from the perspective of an educator, if this is what uneducated person who has gone through the entire system and now has a job in educating young people. If this, how you view the world and this is how you view facts, and this is how you distort them and then disseminate them too. The rest of these, like minded folks and it's very bizarre, ECHO chamber, that's being rejected. So it's almost universally outside height of the college. I mean it not just Fox news. It's rejecting it's. The Washington post is the New York Times that people are freaking out about you situation, an recognized very clearly, and very rightly that you are absolutely not a racist, and this is

this is kind of a lot of what I've said to Jordan Peterson when I had him on like they fucked with the wrong person. Again, they fuck with the wrong person, and this is one of the most horrific things about what I find so troubling about what I think of as I used to think of myself as a progressive, but I would I have a problem with all of this is that the left is attacking itself. Now, it's like it's there's, no one who's progressive enough. No one! Every single thing you do is a micro aggression. Every single thing you do is based on white privilege and therefore you're, racist and and less you somehow or other, give up all your money and give up all your jobs and there people who are asking to do that too, by the way, because people were asking people to give their money and put them in black banks give him to black people. I mean we're going crazy this.

This is literally it's not an individual psychosis, but it's a collective psychosis that were watching, and I believe that in literal terms, we're watching a kind of group insanity. Is this a problem with language is in some ways. Is this problem with in influence and charisma and people's ability to sort of change. The way others view the world with dramatic interpretations of events and things emails where this is not a one on one debate is a real problem with blogs in emails and I've. I've talked about this several times, but it it's it's worth repeating. There's a real, no problem. When someone writes something like that, specifically about another person like you and just writes it, but you're not there to respond, so they can write so much stuff, that's not true! Hey they can it all down and then is there and then some as to refute it, but it's still there. So you don't get to refute the actual document you

write your own and then someone has to go and read that at a different location, it's a real weird way to distribute information and it's contrary to the way human beings rationally, discuss and debate ideas. Well, I would say there are many rules that written into the way we interact now that make it possible for this to happen. So there was an instance where a faculty member accused those that were challenging any of these equity proposals as being part of a racist backlash, and she was clearly talking about me because I'm the most the most prominent person objects as faculty member, a white person, and now anyway, she says in a faculty meeting that now this is a racist backlash and I said to her in front of this faculty meeting. I said somebody might

want to check on the question of whether or not I'm actually a racist, because if you do check on it, you will discover I'm not, and if you don't, this is going to blow up on you, and the chair of the faculty told me that the faculty meeting was not the place to defend myself against Accu Asians of racism. I said to her: that's fine. Where is on not the place to live lately, yeah, Lorraine, to level the activations, but I said: where is the place. Then the faculty member who had made the accusation said you should not expect there to be a venue in which to defend yourself. You should just get used to these accusations. In a separate case, I was told who said that a white car bonuses, same fact remember who made the accusation wait a minute. The person said that you should just accept these untrue accusations. Yes, yeah, I mean your reaction that this is not a place for you to defend yourself against racist accusations. This

a place for you to just eat. Shit right you just have to accept. Is that use on a separate occasion. We were also told that that to question an allegation of racism is racist, now so convenient yeah, try right around that. One too question an accusation of racism is a right. We have an obligation to believe what I know I know need a minute. How that's crazy that is like that is such stupid back! Ask words! Thinking it. You know it's it's! What the cult mentality sounds like in side. It doesn't understand that when you say that to an outsider you know it simply doesn't have or it's creating a structure that makes it impossible to defend yourself, because these accusations are so preposterous that they realize that they have to have some sort of a bizarro world structure. Absolutely, oh, my God,

So what is this person teach they teach media, so they tell how ironic right they teach media. They are currently running a program where she's teaching, students to make documentaries and that program. One of the students in the program filed a public records request. Since we are a public college, you can request the emails of faculty and staff if you want them, and so she had a student file, a public records request for my email to make a documentary in her program So you got one faculty member searching another faculties, members email through a student looking for evidence of, I don't know what but evidence of racism. Well, presumably God! Yes, what little half of a sentence is she's going?

cut out a contest with a few dot dot. Exact words. I mean in fact, if you can separate my letters from each other and reorganize them, I could have set all kinds of them. Well, I think you should have a student ask for the emails that came for her. I but they'd be wonderful. They could be very interesting. I'd bet the wonderful she's telling you that you shouldn't have a venue to defend yourself, and you should just accept the fact that you're going to be called the rate that the idea that she can Call you a racist in a meeting, but you fending yourself against racism is not it's it. It's not the place for that is not the place for and in fact, this whole exchange took place with the president of the college. The provost sitting there and what is silently silently didn't, say a word, remove his hands and really good question. I don't for him moving and I do remember him not releasing an email after that meeting saying that, in fact, accusations of racism without evidence will not be taller.

Yeah, that's a pretty god, damn important, it's really from, and you just can't just there's there certain hot topics that You just got to leave alone when someone levels an accusation. This is the this is the current progressive mindset. The current, like she gone awry mindset yeah, it's fucking crazy! we're even we're all human, that's it. I don't give a shit where you're from I don't care. If you're from your ancestors are from one part of the planet or right next door, it does not matter it's who you are and as soon as try to gain some sort of a leverage position because of the fact that you think that you have some more oppression in your family ancestral. History were way off track were way off track. The track should be a already today. That should be where we are on this and as soon as woman, says you're racist, but you can't defend yourself. Well, we know

quality anymore man you're trying to have anti equality in order to bring equality to people that I've been treated unethically. Is that what it is absolutely right? It's structural inequity, which is the irony of the whole thing, is that people who were wrapped in the flag of equity- I challenged them because I believe in actual equity- and I was accused of being a racist for doing it also sounds like intellectual poverty too. It's like the actual structure of the thoughts that they're presenting so poorly worded. So it's a bit so poorly thought out and you're not allowed to defend against it. Well, that's that's what I was saying about the difference in assumptions and beliefs between the post, modern disciplines and, dare I say, the actual disciplines in the post, modern disciplines. The illogic of those arguments doesn't matter because logic isn't a thing: it's a tool of oppression.

The what's cute way to just throw a monkey wrench into the gears compliance, that's exactly what it is, and what do they want to cheat out of this? They just want to CHI Vol black professors and all white people on their knees as slaves, and what is it was the ultimate goal. You know just people run around fetching power, adapters Yeah I mean I have to again. I want to be really careful. Most most people of color, most black people hold no truck with this right. They don't want. The, but a tiny number who do want this or maybe I think they wanted until they see what it looks like writing the narrative and that can't be they were going. Undo, they're going to undo the civil rights movement and that can't be allowed well not only that the real problem with any of this really crazy shit is that it gives fuel to actual racists, and then it makes

actual racist, think that these people that are in Volved in these protests as misguided as they are. It makes them think that sleep look, He told you that these people are bad, see. Look we told do that, there's a reason why they are inferior and it just as soon as you as soon as you open the door to that, like you have real problems. Yeah this play is right into the cartoonish fantasies of the absurd left that the right believes in which is a tragedy. It is tragedy, but I will say, there's a there's, a positive outgrowth of this. I think, which is if, if I look in my various in boxes at the stuff, that's coming in from people that I've never heard of before this wake up call is uniting people across every known fault line. So I'm getting letters from

religious people from very conservative people from very progressive people. Every known fault line is cut by this, and people are, they are galvanized by Sia sing, something that doesn't fit any narrative they've seen before. That is to they staring down. An accusation like this is not common watching it stared down and the world not fall apart is

is encourage ing, and then you know you mentioned it yourself to have the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times on the same page about this, that's pretty interesting. So I do hope that what emerges from this is that all of the coalitions that exists will look at themselves and will recognize that they have you know. Maybe not. Every coalition has a noble part, but all of the ones that have a noble part will understand that it's paired with something that isn't noble, an I'm hoping that people who find themselves ill served by the narative will join together and that, basically, you know a coalition of the reasonable might emerge. Well, that's a beautiful hope, and I share that hope with you. I mean. I really hope that what's happening is that in these insulated environments of these universities and colleges, where things just get crazy, that when word

leaks out that they get crazy. It's very much like cults. When you hear about don't tell you, I came payment, don't drink the fucking cool something's going on down there, but these group mindsets that people fall into you know often times when you're in you're in the hive and you're in the middle of it. It can all be very, very confusing. My hope is that, as more p, people find out about the preposterous, but hey that's going on in these universities and colleges and how people are mean. These are young people that don't have a fully formed frontal cortex there are about to enter into the world and there they are doing this. With this ridiculous momentum of these silly ideas and there's people that wanted force that more and more and that these people, some of them, are actually professors at the very college this is going on. I mean that to Maine is one of the weirder aspects of it and one of the things that scares people a lot is the idea that these people

or going to live in these insulated environments and then they're going to go and get their graduate degree and then they're going to start teaching, go right back with the same ideas in this insulated environment and never really go out into the world where the market play of ideas is roundly rejected. A lot of these notions that they're trying to pass off through logic and debate, an actual discourse not through shut and people down because of the color of their skin or lack. Or you know, excess amount of melanin. I mean that's not This is not how human beings should be behaving in two thousand and seventeen. It's just not so when you see it so and so prominent and so so common. What is in Utah verses in colleges, this uh

people on the outside looking back looking in at this rather are, are baffled and for the first time, enraged uhhuh. Well, I think what you just described is exactly how this happened. The fact that the the critical race theorists in the post- modernists, are- you know third generation mine now, and so this has matured into a movement that wishes to reformulate the world according to what it thinks it understands, but it's so confused about the nature of reality that that it's just it's hard to even describe how preposterous it looks as it tries to emerge because they go from being at the university to eventual teaching at that same university be the same one or a yeah. They come. They come to maturity inside a field where these things sound reasonable and then they go on to teach them to students and so the,

ten city and absurdity grows with each of those generations and I think, had they been, is to the real world in the context of having to make sense. In order to make a living, which you know, I'm not a big fan of capitalism, but nonetheless, just even having to interface with the world and make enough sense to get by would in four it's a kind of mental discipline that is not evident here. Yeah mental discipline is a good way to describe it too. I mean it just it seems like like The idea that not only should there not be eleven level playing field, but you should force a playing field. That's not level permanently, not well yeah. It's it's crazy and obviously the world agrees or a good percentage of it is not even I mean I'm sure, there's some bias in who writes in who doesn't

but I would actually imagine there'd be some pressure. If you were really angry with me out in the world to write to me an I don't know, I must have one thousand highly supportive emails, all kinds of emails from amazing, interesting people all over the world now and a few angry emails, and I think hello, if it's three or four angry emails and two of them come from inside the the college yeah. I'm sure that some of them must be some of the professors that realize that this is a sinking ship. That's on fire, like you, you can't keep doing it like. This is not going to end well, you can't double down that's what they keep doing. Well, they keep double down what what happens now like? What? What do you just wait for the dust to settle? Do you? I don't know, I'm. But this is never happened before so. This is a very unique moment in your life. Completely

how old are you I'm forty eight? So your whole life? Well, essentially, we should be careful. There they've actually been a number. Nothing like this has ever happened. This is the intensity of this. The national nature of it is all completely unprecedented, and it's pushing both me and my wife to our absolute limit of what we can do to Stephen fielding all of the stuff that is coming across our desks and all that said, there is a a precedent when I was in a freshman and in college and I've, you know I've. I've had battles inside of my field, and so what? What I would say

is that when, when one has deep principles and one acts based on those principles, irrespective of the I guess, what would be called optics, you find yourself the one against the many repeatedly just by virtue of the way the world works, and so this is without precedent in terms of the magnitude of it. But it's not the first time that I've found that just simply proceeding from principles that I'm pretty sure are right, based on careful work has resulted in something boiling over in some amazing fashion. Have you Expn Lord the possibility of teaching outside of a university or college structure? Have you explored the pos ability of using new media where there it's on video audio text and in terms of

publishing things and maybe having a patron on page or something along those lines? Well, I would love to do it actually, because at the moment you know that the college has been a great place to do this because of the the unusual teaching model, but it's becoming less fun. I mean, even if I was not the center of this fire storm, the the rules that are being in did you did in the you know: diversity, sensitivity, training, that's coming, and all of that? What is that, when they make you do by they haven't done it yet need to learn how to not be racist right. So they have to assume that you have these issues in the first place right, so they first of all, why with never hire you if they thought that you were discriminate Tori and then. Secondly, what is going to be done? Has it ever been proven ever that you can change people through, will compulsive Tori or compulsory rematch mapping of their brain and anti racist, some sort? What is it like? It's?

two day, seminar thing like something like that. Well, the thing is, none of this makes any sense, because let's say this, let's say that all white people pick up racism from their environment development. I can't help it. So we know you're a racist, okay. Well, if we know you're a racist, then, what's the remedy He is going to be some sort of since tv training well, but if sensitivity he works, then how do you know? I haven't already had experiences that have done this for me. How do you know right right so there's that the whole thing is a logical and, frankly, I think it's punitive. I think I think the real purpose is. We would like to lecture you yeah so like that in

to be a question about. Have I considered working outside the college system, I've considered it. The real question is how to operationalize it so that I don't strand my family, because Evergreen provides a very high quality of life. We live well in a you know, a beautiful setting, but doesn't pay well, so we have an accumulated the resources where I can just cut the umbilical cord and take the stuff to a different audience. So I would love to find a different way to do it. I was in no way to do it in the meanwhile, like you, you don't. I have to leave one to do the other. Well, that's certainly true, and I wouldn't I wouldn't be averse to starting something like that, while teaching at Evergreen I really hope you do because I've you have some really interesting ideas and you're, very smart guy, and obviously your heart. Your mind is in the right place and it seems like before all this boiled over this new president things

going the way you would enjoy them going. This individualized attention the the freedom to teach anything you want made. It sounds wonderful in the hands of the right person, you seem to be. The right person is beautiful. Now I just like the whole idea of going to a place in learning I mean it's. It sounds like a great idea back when that was how it had to be done, but it doesn't take into account the wonderful internet that we all have. I mean the the only that you have now with this platform, with the amount of attention. That's on you right now to launch something. Is real you're never going to have anything like this ever again in your life, hopefully yeah from your mouth to God's here you know: yeah, okay, well, I'll. Take that as a piece of advice. This is the moment to launch such a thing. Listen to it I'll help you I'll I'll, promoted up all tweeted I'll I'll put it on Instagram all put on Facebook, a let people know! Thank you yeah! It's just that. I think that's! The future of the future is people educating anybody. I

anybody who wants it, whether you are you know here or there or do you don't have to be in a specific location and- and I think that maybe there's a lot of this can be overcome if we don't have these these groups of people that like live in these echo chambers and constantly circulating the same groups that reinforce these opinions and and and experience all this confirmation bias that makes them believe this is this- is all correct in that, though, the rest of the world is just misinformed and don't understand, but clearly by that email. That's it's big problem. Is the staff itself yeah? I don't to say the staff, it's whoever the administration and and some faculty they're crazy, they're crazy, calling you all riders saying this is all right in that you're, racist and miss information means. That is

that's slander. I mean it really is yeah. Well, it's slander. It's is also anything it's just worth pointing out kind of funny yeah, I'm they should have something to back. Those claims up. Those are just empty claims that they're beyond empty claims. I mean you know, I'm a I'm. A Bernie Sanders voter. If I'm all right. Where are they yeah talk across and try to say you were Hillary supporter? Usually I don't know no, no! No! No! No! No! No! I was going to do to say about me man. It just have you thought about contacting an attorney. I am now offers and people are contacting me saying I should you should as long as they keep that guys is. You should definitely contact an attorney and is there gonna put it like that on the internet, because for every person like me who reads it goes, this is nonsense. There's going to be a pos,

ability, someone reading it and go oh, that Brett Weinstein guys are racist or that Brett Weinstein guys he uses misinformation and in in the media and he's actively sought out this attention and he's doing this today image the relationship of the schools he's doing this out of spite, because called out for being a racist. We have this professor, who says he's a racist and she said it to his face and he didn't defend himself mean all that kind of shit? That's how boils over? No, I mean it's clearly, it's clearly justified and they won't listen to anything else. I've tried everything else, so maybe that's just simply the answer. I've really hope you do something alternative. I really do because I think, if someone like you, who has this unprecedented platform, are you you have been launched into the public eye, because so many people are outraged about this. I know you were my my friend Dave Rubin Show, and you know, I'm sure is going to be a thousand other request after people here this as well. People people don't want this

to be the case anymore and they want to do whatever they can to stop that, and they also want to support people that are brilliant, like yourself, that have wonderful ideas that we would like our kids to learn if they do go to college somewhere would like people to be educated in you. These unique facets of the world and and they have a platform where you could teach evolutionary biology in and out in hindered unshackled by this talking nonsense that you're dealing with are yeah great idea- and you know I don't know- It may be that the university system is so encrusted with the stuff at this point that it it can't be freed. That's what Jordan Peterson thinks I talked to quite a few other professors of think that as well mom dad. Believes it as well. Please, like there's just a certain amount of time left in the system where it's just it's so caked up, then. Maybe the only way to deal with this to ban that

then and then then we would have to reformulated yeah, which would be you know. Unlike civilization, the university system could be reformulated. We could start with a fresh, the paper is probably very dangerous to not have a university system not have it right have to said it's the way we figure out. What's true right and there's gotta be a way to save it, while cutting out all these cancers aspects of it or started afresh. You know we could leave the carcass to the post and build something it works outside where we don't have to let him in and then they'll be a whole group of people just talk about what a piece of shit you are those locked in some. Classroom somewhere, demonstrating all the different terrible things. You've done bring horrible things upon the college, just boy, it's a such a strange world you're in right. Now it is really it's it's almost more dreamlike than dreams. Are I sleeping? That's a good question.

I usually I sleep pretty well this one. I mean partly it's just the number of hours trying to field everything means I go to bed late and then you know by the time the sun comes up. The question is: how much more stuff is accumulated so less than I might I don't um? I guess the thing is I'm worried about. What's going on, I'm worried about the danger to my family that gets in the road of sleep. I know that what I'm doing makes sense, even if my colleagues don't understand that I am so I'm not getting enough sleep. That's for sure, but I'm also not ripped apart by doubt it's what I've done nothing wrong. So I don't have that blanket of guilt like. Why did I do that? What could I have done differently right? You know you're, not you're, not Kathy Griffin. Right now I mean it's:

So I just. I really hope this works out well for you and I'll be paying attention every step of the way, and if my offer is real, if you need some help, if you decided to put something together and you need some promoting it. I'd be more than happy to and I'm sure there's been a lot of people listening to. This would love to hear your ideas on things great well. Thank you. So much thanks thanks for coming in here- alright appreciate yeah me too: that's it folks were done, for they will see you next week by Brett Weinstein. Ladies and gentlemen, that's a brave man, this guy who took a chance and a guy. I think who has a real point, and I wish him well and I'm going to from every chance. I can thank you, everybody for tune into this podcast. Thank you to caveman coffee for keeping my brain pumping while trying to keep up with his ideas. Brett's ideas go to coffee, c, dot, com use, the code word Rogan and you can save ten percent. Thank you policy genius, life, insurance,

made easy ways and german go to policygenius dot com check it out. Zero jargon, zero sales pressure zero castle, and it really is a good idea to get life insurance The movement watch is excellent. Watch is very reasonably priced. Super high quality and they start just ninety five dollars- and you can get fifteen percent off today with free shipping and free returns by going to mvmt dot com slash Rogan. It is a company whose watch is I wear all the time. They're, really good, looking and they're really well made. And thank you. Each and every episode, two on it dot com go to in an I t, use the code word Rogan and you will save ten percent off any and all supplements my friends. That's it so for the week I'm enjoying this cast more than ever. I fucking love it. It's a lot of fun

and next week I'm really excited because we have my pal Arisha fear returned from abroad with many a tale of adventure, Wheeler Walker, motherfucking Junior- is going to be here. Holla at your boy Steve Rinella will be here. Oh my goodness, it sounds like another epic we so that'll be next week. So until then. Be nice to each other. Hopefully you have the urge to do that anyway, I hope you're happy and I hope you're healthy, and I appreciate the fuck other people, so until next time. Bye, bye, much love.