« The Joe Rogan Experience

#974 - Megan Phelps-Roper

2017-06-08 | 🔗
Megan Phelps-Roper is a social media activist, lobbying to overcome divisions and hatred between religious and political divides. Formerly a prominent member of the Westboro Baptist Church, she left the church with her sister Grace in November 2012.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
hi what's up ladies and gentlemen go on a big fat to or and it starts june twenty third in minneapolis minnesota and then june twenty fourth i'm in indianapolis oh shit we're moving were groove in that allow should happen at lahti dates all of em are available along with ticket links at joe rogan dot ford slashed tour allowed the shows are sold out we ve added second shows too lots places including those first to minneapolis sold out the first show pretty much almost four maybe maybe couple tickets left hundred tickets after so and then the sea thing with any nablus does a few scattered tickets remaining for the first show but tickets available for the second show joe rogan ned ford slashed tour go there check it out be happy enough you can be happy if you go there on a wine so that i'm just trying to make noise my face that makes sense
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day her name is megan phelps and she is formally of thee westboro baptist church and if you have heard of them they are the church that was founded by her grandfather fred phelps and they are the ones that protest the funerals of gay men with those horrible signs say god hates fags they show up at the funerals of of soldier that have died and they procreant proclaim that these soldiers are dead because people have not followed word of god and its dream we hateful and controversial group and she was a part of it for most of her life she's been out for four and a half years and is a really fascinating podcast first of she's a very very smart person very articulate very well read
and was just unfortunately born into this terrible situation or made after talking tour i mean not in her perspective probably but in the perspective of made many others i think fortunately born into that environment not unfortunate because she gives some incredibly unique insight us to me during his part gas into the listening to it of what it's like to grow up being a really intelligent very curious person whose trapped in this insanely rigid ideology that's a so extremely hateful she's brilliant really brill and really courageous and i think you can enjoy out us so without any further ado megan films
the job will gain experience towards europe willie walker junior fantasy maybe i will be you you never heard of him before i hadn't i confess that suffers thank you thank you do not appreciate it in a problem what is it like my guess is the best way to get started what is it like being a person there up in the westboro baptist church ferber person the outside for me i when i think of that i think of like this crazy hateful angry environment filled with like really mean people that say horrible things about gay people and also its other folks meet you in your super nice
seem so normal that is the conundrum so i mean a lot of things the words that you just used to describe the church that's definitely not how i experienced a growing up for the most part i mean my family outside of when they're on the picket line there i mean incredibly kind and gentle and and compassionate in and i think the biggest misconception about the church is that their motivated by hatred and in their eyes it's that happened of loving what we really that we were doing what we were doing was loving our neighbour so in the first time that phrase appears in the bible it's in the context of when you see your neck sending you have to rebuke him not just like watch him wander off on this way to hell so that was how we saw we thought we were warning people and and giving them the only hopeful message that could save them from eternity and how was there ever any descent amongst the people they were in a church about like how the message is being distributed like your whole
other sciences god hates fags and a gay guy was being buried at a funeral and you guys were they are protesting with those signs i resent ever anyone inside the organization that was like hey this is not the way to do it these people suffering in mourning not really i mean once once my grandfather it was if he was the one who kind of developed that strategy he thought so you know this the examples forefront funerals somebody if their bearing somebody so a soldier say or a gay person it's an example of the curses of god so god says if you oh baby i'll bless you and if you disobeyed me i'll curse you so why soldiers so several times in the scriptures its connect in between the sins of the nation and the bonnet the punishments so for instance in the book of judges it says they choose new gods then was war in their gates
and then in the books of the king's it says they her fell down many slain because the war was of god and they in the book of whose it says they have deeply corrupted themselves there for i will remember their iniquity and i will visit their sins though they bring up their choice and yet will i believe them there shall not be a man left so it's these these threats things these warnings from god that a few disobeyed me i'm gonna curse you so we would go to these soldiers disorder funerals to warn the living to say that if if if you don't want to we likewise punished you have to repent you have to change our ways and and obey god no people that are also hard core christians that also follow the word of god very closely but still would see like what you guys we're doing these funerals huh
the up these signs protesting where a soldier who supposedly gave his life for our freedom rights supposedly there over their fighting so that we could be safe here and then you guys are out there with these signs like there how to be a lot of people that have like minded views increase geography would still were furiously upheaval yeah absolute and from our perspective we thought that they were substituting their righteousness for the righteousness of god so they were upset though we were they're giving this message that was hundred percent biblical and are from our point of view and they d god calls that compassion when he sends his servants with his message so we thought even though they call themselves christians there ignoring these me a vast swap the bible that that support while we were set and how we were saying it so i mean
was definitely a lot of a lot of push back from people on all sides but an especially from other christians but we just thought there now really christian is there this like we understand that so you guys were pretty bunch solidified in your opinion it was a consensus like everybody thought you were doing the right thing right so i mean so that when the soldiers funerals when those protesting at was in june two thousand five that we started producing soldiers sooner how's it brought up so my grandfather had been since two thousand five so the wars in iraq and afghanistan he'd been is you see these things on the news and he was that mean that the funeral cycle is
under the funerals and he said these aren't funerals he's are patriarch pep rallies and there are saying all these things about god bless america will god isn't blessing america goddess cursing america so we have to go in and give a different message so that's how it came up initially but so i went to my first soldiers funeral protest and that the following month in july of two thousand five and before i went so every time we would go to these things i because protesting from the time i was five years old so when you go out on the unit to these protests a lot of times there would be media there they are people asking questions and i i wasn't sure how i would answer if somebody asked me why are you at this funeral i didn't i sure how i would answer it so i felt very you want to that i was going i thought i thought i ain't too i need to understand this so i went to my mother and she brings forth those verses that i just quarter to you and several others we sat down
as a family as we did every night to read viable and to talk about world events and you know the churches interpretation of these events in light of their understanding of the scriptures so you know she goes through and explained this in a very carefully and because her answers came from the bible i was that moves might might mound asian was but the bible as the infallible word of god and that its true no matter what any human thinks and that we have a deal to obey at one hundred percent no matter no matter what i think or feel otherwise i have to bring my thoughts and opinions line with this so even though i had a lot of trepidation at the beginning about going to those funerals i very quickly acclimated to it as you do when in environment like that where everything depends on you falling into line
what was it like when you first did it like what was the reaction to other people you know other people's reaction to you so that very first one is an online breschia and it was incredibly tents and so there is a bunch of cops we always every time we would go to protest somewhere we would contact the police to make sure that there would be a police presence was because people were tempted to and did you know would come after us italy and try to assault us and and against it happened with some regularity so from the very earliest days of the protesting we you know my mom and her generation had made this decision to who
i should say many of them are lawyers so they would mean a write letters from you know as as attorney saying we're going to becoming we're gonna be protesting in your city people this is what we do we know we hold signs on public sidewalks we are not violent we so explaining what approach what our protests look like and then and then saying if you want to avoid you know these kind of like what violence that often happens be there so this first one how old are you two thousand far originating so you were a kid now but a groan kid and you know you're with your parents and this is the first time your protesting a veteran what what was that experience like some standing a crisis were standing across the street from the church i guess at its very very solemn very quiet there were which is not
normal really for protests a lot of times we would be out there in a singing enchanting and and making it was a big public display but this was like i said incredibly tense nobody was really talking nobody was really moving and you know what the family was you pulled up in a and i think i'm going to limousine across the street and the family got out and in what the and in size and do they know you guys going to be there before him because we always what policies that we would send out news releases so they were aware that we were gonna be there and there were a bunch of i think they were marines again in dress blues standing there and they looked incredibly anger
and and upset but like i said i was it was like it felt like at any moment has something happened like that the whole situation could explode but again let so the cops having the cops standing there and so it was it was it was over it was pretty usually tents were half inch lucindy they weren't saying any like not not none of which they are so strong to say it's really unusual for protest like that we allotted time we would be exchanging you know we would of course be yelling about i will verses as and hatred of god and now they would talking about love and tolerance and how we're wrong and not christian and but at this one it was very quiet it wasn't always like that so pretty quickly you know once again once we became acclimated to do the protest and also they have you heard of the patriot guard riders
as a group of motorcyclists who decided to end they formed like an across the countryside in every state there was a group of these motorcyclists who when they found out we're gonna be protesting somewhere they would go and of their engines so that our words and songs and such wouldn't be heard by the family and and they would mean a hold american flags and try to block in a bit it's always its putting a buffer between us and the family and seven when that started to happen it became almost like a game sometimes an eight hour in hindsight i this makes me cringe and anne but became like this game of trying to like show that we were going to get our message
across no matter what any human being wanted because we knew we were so sure that this was what god wanted what made you leave a lot of things it started my very first sort of conscious doubts came from conversations on twitter so wow something good god done through tour yeah lots of good things element my husband there we go while i was taught the church it is just i don't know that he would use that word to describe himself there is a second assembly this nose like when people the problem authority is when people when you say atheists people think jerk and like so it was all so many people do so many people think that like oh is absolutely certain that there is no god and so it's a word that i hesitate to use to describe myself to buy but i'm not i'm not a believer
i am not a believer because i i love people i believe in people and that there is so much hope and for people on the weekend i myself sobbing conversations that you had on twitter did what do you like what what directed the open your mind right so i got twitter and it was like an extension of with the picket line right so roy got there were these picket signs and in a keyboard com who s in ass questions and so it was as it was a constant once a conversation and so i got on twitter to take then you know to do the internet too to reach more people and so one of the first things i did when i got on twitter was to attack this jewish man named david abbot ball herein a blog called judicious he was listed as the second most influential jus on twitter on this was no wrong actually camera member not member of item from my strength you can check it is the duty of the list
you want a job but anyway so useless in december to and so he responded initially with sarcasm and income and hostility but frequently he's out of change tactics and started in like mocking me although he still did do that some two he's asked questions about our picket signs and i started asking him questions about jewish theology cause i i wanted to better know how to counter it run the scripture try i was sure that they are wrong driscoll jesus and and they reject him as the messiah so all of these things and so rights we're having his back and forth in this goes on for about a year and in that year i'm actually met him twice i protest at him twice once went to his functions or did was giving speeches or yazzi cell in long beach actually
the delicious festival they had this lethal jewish cultural faster great man that's great he's great so he right so he was gonna be there and then i will when i was protesting em he came out of the picket line and it is what it was one of those like very rowdy pickets there's a bunch of color protesters like and they were it was an old guys this like the easter bunny and jesus and was actually got pretty violence i was actually soon got violent well yeah and the cops this mary told you we called the conflict the cost for disdaining they're watching people like actively assaulting as a kid us and so were like walking around trying to note to not be head because were bright gonna hit back we weren't there like us at the churches very against violence like they're not gonna be violent people or defend themselves just just turn
so it was actually really gladwin david came out because he became like a buffer between me and the rest of the counter protesters because the amerika tell it he was wearing his judicious shirt and whatever anyway so so the company's continued there and then also at another protests six or seven months later and then as not long after that second protests were talking again and he was asking about one of our signs that said death penalty for fags and of course i'm reiterating why the church believes that it is in the book of leviticus god calls for the death penalty for gate gaze and and then in romans one in the new testament its reiterated says they days that commits such things are worthy of death so and so i am time david these things and he says together it didn't jesus sailor he who is without sin cast the first stone
said what we always had to that which was were not casting stones were preaching words and he said yeah but you are advocating that the government cast don't and i remember in on this is all through twitter miss i i see this message and i i kind of gas nose like i had never connected that jesus there of course he was talking about the death penalty specifically about the death penalty and we were advocating it and so i wasn't sure how to respond but he david kept kept going he said anne and what about this member of your church who had a child out of wedlock and i said what what about it like this this is another point made of peoples in a common knowledge people knew about this and what though this interface and we would save the stand oh god isn't senselessness its repentance so she doesn't deserve that punishment because she repented she stopped she wasn't having primarily
ex anymore and she knows that it's wrong and she changed her mind and she changed her conduct which is what repentance is and he said yeah but she would have been killed if you had institute the death penalty for that same end it was the first time again that i connected that if you kill somebody as they said they you lose the opportune to repent and be forgiven and so guess i'm just sort of staring at my phone and intervene hands as he's in jerusalem and i really quickly ended the conversation i remember quite how but it was this sort of this like i had i do know how to handle this because like us at the church is full of lawyers are very intelligent and their arguments and their theology for the most part is very well constructed and super consistent and so for there to be this you notice this hypocrisy this contradiction i didn't might look my
brain was feluccas exploring so i went to a couple people the church including my mother and the response was prophetess tommy at any filling unfilled so she she's reiterate at the same verses that i had told david that debt supported our position but she didn't addressed the contradiction and when i seemed unsatisfied with it she said i was wrapped around an actual and just sort of in a push aside the response was so just to up shut me down and then to move on to the next thing which is a very human thing right when somebody put something in your face that that is a contradiction that you're not ready to do whether that you can't it's you you mean you be harmonised sort of pushed aside and ternata so the way that i dealt with it was to stop holdings
because i knew that if somebody asked me about it i i couldn't defend it cuz i didn't i didn't believe it but there was nothing else i could do at that point and what the importance of that conversations is obviously we just one small contradiction one small inconsistency and a vast you know we still i still believe that everybody outside the church was basically isn't a completely wrong long and and evil and or delusional and that the church was basically right except this one point does anybody ever feel that it was bad you slurs idea some sort insulting term for gay people instead of saint god hates gay people sell at the vote very beginning they did use the word gaze he wanted a stranger while so my grandfather was eight gay is a misnomer these people are happy there committing suicide and there and their evil and abominable and they have no p scott has taken their their peace
an unhappy so gay is a misnomer and so the word the word fag they say it like amos in the book of amos there's a its translated firebrand there so my grandfather its aim the word fag is an elegant metaphor and its gaze but a are a bundle of sex right used for kindling zone gaze are they they burn in their last one towards another and they fuel the fires of hell in the fires of god's wrath so it's an elegant metaphor grandpa i'm so i do know the original metaphors really supposed to be even from the bible now the word faggot no action faggot means a bundle of woods a bundle of wood and they would use that expression to describe a woman because a bundle wood is burdensome
carrying around a bundle of wood is very burdensome so when they would call a woman a faggot there were two saying that she was burdensome so when they would call a man a faggot they would say that he is burdensome like a war and like a bundle of would like a non manly man they can't get work done in other those along those lines frame and then it became used by people a rony asleep saying that it was about burning them and that they would burn gay people because they would burn faggots of wood that's not really the case sounds cool actually had never heard that before yeah yeah if you look receiving you find that jamie google that the original term faggot meant burden but bundle of wood and burdensome like a bundle of what has been think about carrying a bundle of would specifically never truck its huge pain ass that's kind of what the source of it was last year i had
i had people use it wrong in the real problem is people who use a wrong i gave activists they try to say how horrible that word is because it was used to represent how gay people were burnt but there's never been like time in history were like there's a whole series of a people that willing burnt in our society round which is and things were done like real specifically but never been like a thing what we got here the word faggot has been used in english and delayed sixteen centuries abusive turn for women particularly old women referenced to homosexual sexuality may derive from this that wasn't have to be so weird dwayne got it accurately blah blah blah so there is an alternative possibilities at the word connected with the practice of fagging in british private schools
younger boys performed potentially sexual duties for older boys although the word fact it was never used in this context too but the big one means the bundle of wood the bundle of sticks what's aunt jemmy what you got something awkward to be carried is yes exactly burdensome so that's what comes from really didn't have anything to do with burning people but like the old over a paid it like did to make a big point like a big dramatic point but it's in our melodramatic you would think i would know this given our respective histories but i believe in the work of his umbrella d ass an important distinction for wine will use that term because it's really that their annoying i mean it's really just
in all these think of some non manly man can't get things done these pride crying all the time these burdensome very expensive gay people since we left to say much more maybe reflective reality has not and that it was a bit like and impossibly fearful joan overcompensate because you get now there's environment i'm going down to santa monica wulf the seventh day is upon us on earth you'll see cut off shorts and ill your tone what are they doing i mean it not trying to leg into a paint everybody with that one brush now either by an amazing songs being attracted to man something happens now i know what i mean like they're just people right look just others were also i mean right after we laughed like at first i thought we have to hide from the past missus ray i should say left together how old you guys so i was twenty six hours on the train seven
did you have long conversation for did many now is about four months before me when i first talk to her about leavings when was that first initial conversation and how did you gather up the courage to even sort of breach the subject of israeli terrifying an awful does that mean i remember from the time i was very young and there's a passage and do dorani me that my mom would quote and it's about enough somebody if if your friend somebody close to your eroding somebody comes up to you and says let us go and serve other gods like somebody secretly says to you those things you have two stone them you the one that they came to europe was to be the first one to and my hemison stoning people below they do though if it says in the bible and someone said hey we gotta we have to serve this golden cow they we also have led the imminent estimate it talks about rendering unto caesar the things that are caesar's and two gods the things that are got so we also
to obey the law of man we to obey the love and weren't so we're not supposed to be just so love man supersedes love god where it we're supposed to be obedient to the laws of men but also i mean there this is the kind of complicated a little bit at the energy where it s sort of undid a lot of the mosaic so that we didn't actually have to follow those things but i i don't know i think it's the whole i think it's like the death penalty for fags thanks if they still believe that punishment is is applicable then than then we should be trying to convince the government lobbying the government her like with signs right so so that i was my sister i went to her and said these things to her she could easily have turned around them until my parents not as a it's a culture of tattle tales not out of bed add intention but because they believe that they're trying to help you right
i don't want you to go down that path so so we know and i was there i first thought of leading on june july force and i was with my sister at the time and when it first occurred to me that i might that i might have to leave the church with the church might be wrong i thought i had to leave like that second because if it even occurred to me that men i didn't belong there and that god was gonna punish me in that i i just felt life's immediately so much guilt and like i was a betrayer booze all your social life connected still to the church yeah and with this work dad you already known your husband by then i had yesterday to do he was we part of it so but like it wasn't like that like the beginning leg so so he was just another person on twitter at first and it was uses fuck friendly conversation and went over the further course of several months i dunno eight eighty eight months or so seminary and then it was
ever and there is never any thing you know about feelings or relationships are all that stuff is totally your betters no nothing like that like not even not even anything like now thing like it's just that my mind and work that way and that there is there can be no relationship like that without sighters but alzheimer's outsiders now so you don't you i would actually thought i was never going to get married because most of the people in church about eighty percent or so the people in the church eighty people are so anyway or my immediate and extended family sine die there's no way them getting i'm just not gonna get messages except that it was it was it wasn't like an like an easy thing at first but it was just it was justified on the ground and i got it acts on the ground where you had to date someone inside the church was only eighty people the church or all your family candy your family fuck yet why am i should say they were a couple of
people my age and they kate may i just joined the church like you know that but i had no like i know just than any of them no one picture i think a hand but yet it's it's kind of strange but i i actually had a dream about meeting i should say also my husband at the time i didn't know he was totally anonymous on twitter like us it's just his words i don't know what it looked like it and no you know his name or where he lived or anything about him except except these words and use you just curious and kind and and that sort of and he loved people and so he what sort of always be pushing pushing the conversation bacteria like i'm giving at which like i told you all those verses about producing food rules and why we have to go and do this in the importance of it and why we have to thank god for these tragedies because
got a sovereign and hissing controls i'm i'm talking about the scripturally like the justify all these things and he kept pushing it back to he's not super well versed in the bible so he didn't know how to i see that the bible says these things but what about the family i just cannot imagine going in doing these things to two people and so this is all happening like on as i'm am also still having conversations on twitter with so many other people so it's like twitter became this like empathy machine for me like so it's just like on a picket line where we were people are budding heads and in arguing in debating in and yelling and its i am yes having these can be kind of aggressive relations but i am also seeing like photos of their cats and them needle exchange joking with their friends and so i am seeing a sight of people and sort of being immersed in this community
in a way that i had never been before and so it it's really it's like i'm trying to say when you say why did you leave like it in there it took it was so much sort of happening you know around this time so when by the time this like pile up of things you know i'm processing it as i'm going through this i am also talking to my sister and and she was the only and other people in church but she was the only person if i ever had a doubt or or a question aura like i thought were something wrong here she was the only person who would say yeah you're right that doesn't make sense that i should say my sister is creative and artistic and had out like a little bit of reputation for being kind of rebellious not as lake submissive as much me in and our other sister so
there was this this dynamic of you know between the two of us where she was elaborate and i could fully articulate my thoughts and feelings too and so when i first thought of leaving and i turn round and i thought i literally it was beer painting eta friends house painting the law and i i turned around to set my paintbrush down i thought i had to go and leave that second and i turned run it's on my sister and i thought i can't leave without talking to her so the next day i came home from work over though in a lunch hour and we would like to my room and we were talking about all these doubts we were having and i was crying and i put my head in her lap and and
i couldn't tunes art like articulating the idea of leaving was too much like it it's it's terrifying and it's just like impossible and i said i m what have we weren't here and she said what you mean and i said what if we were somewhere else answer that start this conversation where you know i cannot let go of all the things that i thought that the church was doing wrong that are art where our theo he was wrong where we were applying it wrong i mean in a way that that was destructive and unscriptural and she kept pushing the conversation back to we're never gonna see our family we're going to lose everyone in everything that's ever been important to us there is no hope outside this church all the things that we have learned about outsiders in that they were evil and they they could never truly love each other or care
care about one another there really just enabling one another on the path to how so and so this this back and forth dino goes on for about four months before we finally actually left and it was is better or worse is and it could have imagined but to get back to the well let's get to the move brown or worse than ever imagined so i should say so you left how did you if we're talkin to my parents and in the end it was another another issue had come up and i i couldn't we couldn't it was a battle that we were in a fight again we can i should say in those four months are kept trying to shore to give these doubts in a way that the turks would accept like trying to convince them not be as ope like but ass time went on i became more and more open about about these questions and doubts and i just
i couldn't we couldn't find it anymore i just looked at grayson they said we have to go and gaza we and i should say also we had already been packing like we had we had started packing or things about a little over a month before that and we had started like taking boxes to our friends house and with the understanding is actually are user highschool english teacher though we had kept up with on twitter and he is right we basically told him if something changes if the church changes and these things get better then bolt will take our stuff back and desperate unlike none of us ever happened and he was in our understanding and compassionate and newly supportive but so we had done all this stuff already but we actually had to go and pack the rest of our things so we walk at her appearance bedroom and went and started packing and been people started coming my brother
in some of the elders and my aunt my cousin your people have we were very close like our whole my whole life revolved around the church and so to look these people in the face and say that you notice the of the us them mentality the bonds that are created in environments like that are incredibly strong wish they were in our church and again mostly people are also my family so it was it was awful and i'm trying a crying and packing and trying to explain to them way why we're leaving and i can hardly talk you know if it just just i was so overwhelmed but next lady go back the next day with a u altogether s worst off more our parents helped us pay it's not it's not one of those like there are some or groups like
where they don't want you lee they'll del try to stop you from leaving like i heard on the psychology they miss average here i can restore run on yeah he is talking about like a fish like actual obstacles to you eating like physically like they're not gonna you can't get out of the gate nothing like that you know my they always would say the volunteer army and if you d want to be here then you don't belong here so it's just thea it's the threat of law using everything and everyone should have been ostro size by and sort of expelled into this world that you believe and have always believed is is evil and without hope and doomed so how did you do it how'd it dick youtube yet only stuff pact people come on in the same way i mean like they're they're they're trying to convince us but once they anderson and that were not being convinced though for that innovate they walked away from that night our dead jobs off at a hotel in jesus christ yeah like it it's it's so
a media that you become this you become other you become an outsider like in the next morning we do it back i rang the doorbell i rang the door of her your own house i lived in the house from the day i was born you felt like you had bring the doorbell who does not my world anymore why crisis during the doorbell it is like there's there's no other there isn't there is nothing else i guess this is not our homeland is not so we go in your packing all of our things it was just it was awful system i had been in those four once i had been so terrified of slang not knowing what was coming like just imagine you're going to lose everyone in your life into their just you're just going to think you're not gonna like how your parents met and fell in love like your grandparents send family recipes and photos and memories and what did the house's i'm like taking photos and voice recordings
this all the time lag in every it was just its overwhelming its the boys are also like a feeling of relief was there also feeling of like we actually did it i'm actually doing it it's actually happening i'm going to get away from this i know this isn't real i know this isn't right did you understand that it was a cop so i was really against and i still don't a tend not to use that word minutes it's fine shorthand i guess for some there are aspects of the text are not contest for sure like look like wanted so saying like there's no they're not get your money there on turn out like though not some charismatic leader china have cycle everybody's wives and children or whatever its money like that it's but there are definitely aspects that our culture is the fact that you can't there is no such thing as agreeing to disagree like that's and the de penalty for disagreeing is so high likened to there are things like that that that our
finally like but but i was definitely egg i was not in that and that moment i was not okay with using that that term for sure run it is definitely a it it was it took a lot of time and will also derogatory turn but wouldn't represents is an ideology that a group subscribes to doesn't necessarily have to have all the negative ramifications of an ideology right for it to fit into the category of a call right here i totally understand the now which is why i like you know if somebody says it i sometimes wool we'll say there are things that aren't call i can explain what i think is not but i am also i dont do it every single time i understand that it's so you yet all your stuff after hearing ring the doorbell you're gone and then how do you like and into the world did you have a job back then or did you have a job with the church has a job the church working for the law firm so its home job family life just does everything all at once and then all
of course you're going into a world that i had just spent my entire life you know pro testing enron and just so crazy when i look back now it at videos which i couldn't do for a long time but more they there are tons of videos and interviews and documentaries that you know where i answering these questions and i it's it's crazy were you there when lui through clear do document or the added you talk to him or user yeah bother i'm tv is the first time it was even really super nice came and we would like making a grows together and like going pulling and jumping on the train policeman and yeah you'd come to picket and it was really funding because like that so he came for three weeks like but three weeks like a lot like one month he came for a week and the next month came for another way and came again so the first
time like i didn't know anything about him or who he was really i'm in a news from the bbc obviously in that but i haven't seen any of his stuff and then before he came the next time must we for a test reasoning i was in college and i was progressing site look on youtube and find this document that he did didn't you another one though white supremacy than nazis lowering the nazis so watch that entire documentary and as like like i know his angle is slicks its them all these poor kids they were raised in this they don't know any better and at the time i was kind of indignant so like i am thinking person you know like i at all life growing up like it was never just like i explained about the soldiers funerals i never just just went along with something
like i wanted to understand why i needed understand that it was scriptural from the bible and so if you could show me that then but like i m a curious person so but i just had never obviously question like the the most foundational premises of our belief system which is the bible is the info word of god and westboro baptist church are the only ones who have who can understand it correctly i didn't i just never never really got got past that because if it was in the bible and it made sense to me then it was fine sir anyway so i was kind of indignant when i saw what lui was trying to do like we're just poor children and so and i ve been told my family so that everybody you know everybody knew about it this you know what he was doing and i remember telling him something about how he was he was in city s what he was doing because was not being honest using really friendly but not being honest about what he wrote they thought about us anyway
what does he say what he said actually he actually addressed is specifically in the second documentary he said you ve been saying this but but i've never pretended to agree with you i've never i've been pretty pretty honest about it and it s i dont believe that what you're doing is right i don't play the bible is the word of god that and so i of course he's right he was exactly right but i didn't i consider the time will you leave you get out and then what do you do do you get a job so i thought me i saw my degrees and finance time when do business school all these people saying yes heading for a time it immediately that it s how we believe that the doom of thee world was eminent so i never really did that so end of days type starve yeah yeah so you're thinking because of all the cen one day there's going the reckoning and all
you gonna vanish yet destruction is emily was one of our lives watch a movie was as those terrible terrible movies with kirk cameron about the apocalypse goddamn left behind now though there so you should watch on issues that there are terrible terrible there so good so bad that they become oh my god what the fuck is this german her cameron no economy that did now it's really funny allies using the same team here since parliament yes so these episodes lawrence right here said something like lawrence rights had said something like author of going clear the book on scientology yes yes he said i m just enough lloyd narcissism of small differences nose like oh my god yes like we other christians like where some of our
our biggest targets and in the way it would be like the smallest things like for instance there was like one church that we had some kind of like very little affiliation with in the early days of the picketing and then their women started to cut their hair brooch women or not to cut their you know how to cut your hair at all we will to get ahead on my god that's awareness because a bible verse was bar worser its first corinthians eleven fourteen i think actually says a woman's harris is her glory is don't you know doesn't nature itself teach you that it's a shame for a man to have long hair but a woman's hair is her glory and its given to her for a covering so at its has long hair right so my grandmother interpreted that to mean uncut which
again like i i did not vote we didn't believe in interpretation at the church like the fact that he was adding something into the bible that wasn't there before gloves he cannot long hair without were and still cut em but but it's like a long hair is good and uncut better so and he has rules what about clothes i carry reconcile the fact you nuts postwar two different types of cloth so that is over there that that the sees this says the distinction between the ceremonial law moses and the moral law ceremonial laws like mixed fabrics and keeping kosher as poverty by death of mixed roberts i actually care remember but but we dissembling preposterously we don't worry about it because we thought these passages in the new testament said you don't have to follow the ceremonial laws so we don't worry about it but did you has spent any time researching the actual history the new testament lighthouse constructed so not i mean some yes but not real
because in our minds goddess sovereign so the tripoli predestination so god controls everything and everyone so god control the construction of the new testament were exactly right even those done by man it was gods you have it is those out gods word yet exactly how convenient went idling you just don't have you don't have to ask those questions but what about the vote that is like constantine wasn't even a christian until his death bed because god didn't want it to be that way it's just a does it erect and actually my sweet loophole for you just say that's god's will guard new done tar time don't worry about it but it's much men rode it yeah what they did it because god let him do that and the question is which version arrived another question like i i sort of instinct we avoided as like atheists what asked this question like why the king james version year end
you can't really answer because gramps said so like bright that's not really say that my grandfather was the fat like pasture first past the only passed over the pound to the west rochester i don't think we did i think everybody kind of ok get hold out when i think that guy grandpa example was gramps fred phelps ramps yes a guy and i just wanted a closed loop so it just like what was that was the thought process behind like just accepting that kind of stuff i did your grandfather ever bring up the even diversions of the bible that there are finding like whose thoughts unlike the dead see squirrels and things along those lines just didn't addressing just didn't manner because right again saw gods word anyone gods worlds god's work so it's so fascinating when someone so rigid with their belief system like this is it and this is and as long as you believe that it's all gods wills like outs god's will seriously but the new testing
was written by constantine the bunch of bishops and other guys well god let him do it my area and not just let him do that caused em cause them who forced it did happen he knows what he's doing absolutely every every word of our conversation that large with that does not allow all the you know sodomy and all the crazy shit gonna was god allow them so this is why i am not a christian your confused like what the well so there's this passage romans nine was not is the only reason i should say but but i have really i have real trouble with us and they think is is it still hard for me to say i think this is evil but i think this is a who's this passage in in romans nine that talks about it this analogy of god as potter and humans as clay in his hands and eight music example of jacob isa who in the bible dignity our twins
while they were yet in the womb before either the maiden good or evil god love jacob and hated isa and it took pains this picture of god he knows what if god willing to show his wrath and make his power known endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath made for destruction so it has god created some people as vessels of mercy people that he loves and others as vessels of wrath made for destruction so made for the express purpose of destroying them of torturing them in hell for eternity so and then sort heap paul his writing heat he paints this picture god making you do all the things that you do and then blessing some and cursing others and he as we all you're gonna ask me then why does god yet find fault for whose thus it is well right
guys making you do it why is he punishing you for it were of girls would you do a horrible thing you resist as well but you can't resist as well so he makes you do it and then you punishes you for it and the answer is you don't get to ask that question this may but old man who are thou there are against god shall the thing form say to him that formed it why has now made me thus using it ass a question to me this is i've aspects for i spent a long time talking to christians and you know people of manuel because i was the new testament so and but also talking to jewish people but the old testament and found so many of the lake interpretations and so many of our beliefs are not there not fully supported by by the bible and that there are so many different ways of interbreeding so many of our the more destructive of our beliefs but that one
have not found any explanation for that passage that anything that makes any kind of sense that's consistent with the text and and not evil and i just didn't i thought i couldn't ask that question for so long whereas at the church rate i thought i just had to accept this this is the truth and nothing that i feel or think matters against it but now i i can't not link of corn i cannot ask questions javascript would be so sir it's also strange when you re the passages in the bible and therein thou and i and he go wow what a weird like you reading something in a style of com indicating in thinking that we don't even use anymore how strange is that i can tell you if you had a kind of with a rational person and they ve they'll start talking and thou and die you d like what are you
why using those words like what's going on here are you ok you're crazy person but as long as you're quoting some ancient stuff you're allowed to do i like and it just it sort of her highlights how bizarre scripture really is and how bizarre these the logical imperatives he's ideological like pathways that are just completely rigid and carbon so you have to follow them but then listen you like you know me in talks like this anymore this is such a strange and they didn't even talk like then when they wrote it because you're dealing with something that was in ancient hebrew and then translated to latin is translated into greek and by the time it can two english boy what a terrible game of telephone you know that the grapevine brain either it is these are questions that i never thought i could ask or that again that it didn't matter because if god or in a four ordained all of it throne then it wasn't relevant but there's also i mean like there
so in this i was attacking the same harris but this morning he there are so many things in the bible that i find so much good there also send unlike the languages one thing that like you i know it sounds so weird to people but to a lot of people but i like the king james like i agree like again i my mother was reading us to us every every night and so these words there's actually passage it says i found light like talking to god i found thy words and i eat them and they were on to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart right so it was this thing where i loved it i loved i loved these ideas i i thought i thought it was the truth and i thought it was like the definition of goodness because i did it and god said it and but even now like theirs as one passes that i i really love it says zone by long forbearing as a prince persuaded and a soft tongue break the bone that last like that's that's it it's too
soft hung break at the barn that that free they love the imagery i love the like you know i did this ted talk a few months ago and end host in a kind of about this like modern political discourse this this tribalism this is becoming the scene of these council why'd you know positions and and failures of empathy and end like people think that cause they're so sure that their right that their position is the right position there willing to talk to the other side in ways it they're just it's it's terrible the way that i did at the church it's the rabbit it's you know that dismissive condescending you know just hostile i said where they here and that's like it that will not call work when people don't risk bond to it like they respond its toll
elementary behavior rights like somebody approaches you a certain way you tend to respond in kind so somebody comes to you and kindness and compassion you tend to respond you know and in that way also and when you are angry and aggressive and hostile like it just elicits the same reaction people get defensive end but that that verse i love that verses and beautiful who with his obviously some wisdom from what those people writing down and trudged trying to translate what that wisdom was and there are some really fascinating pastures to me it's he's been most fascinating as a time capsule when i read it michael regardless of who translated this regard this is still a thousand year old book at the very least in terms of or two thousand years old that alone is really amazing when you're reading the thoughts in the ideas of how someone was perceiving the world to them
years ago or roughly you now it's dish something to it where europe it also solidifies in my mind how briefly human things have been conscious of their time here on earth thousand years ago is not very long i mean it seems like an incredibly long time for a personal and to be a hundred but in terms of the the age of the human race itself which i think they just backdated again found a new discovery where they pushed back oldest known human being by over a thousand a hundred thousand years yesterday some new discover some new bones so now they know modern human beings have been around for at least
the hundred thousand years and probably go back even further than even now but but that's so cool like as i say i had actually think on rotten rules all this homo sapiens species from discovered in morocco was sir time ok yeah at a hundred thousand years to the history of modern human fossils these bones or from early anatomically modern humans our own species homo sapiens with a mix sure of modern and primitive traits national team of anthropologist paleontologists and evolutionary scientists report a pair of papers published was in the journal medicine journal nature evolutionary was was evolution talk like back home and we're gonna believe it how old were about dinosaurs tat young earth creationism one of the elder said something like cod brought baby dynamos on the ark real
yeah i did emerge it to drown i don't know we can't we just it is not a we just any time there is any conflict or apparent conflict between the bible and evidence in a physical evidence we just below the bible like because it's worse now marble while but what you're saying about like ancient wasn't like they resist so my husband he got super into paleo a few years ago and he read gender ants book the pillar manifesto and he made me read one chapter of it knows called moses the micro biologist and rob both absence rub wolf mentioned it on your protesters wherever that was a few weeks ago whatever and its sole fascinating tat like when you read leviticus like without the context in the time and in time they were living in like it
a lot of it just seems like every whatever we be reading this at home you know as a family like there's just so much but this seemed like incredibly tedious and like what are we supposed to be getting out of this i don't even know so i read chapter and it was so like incredible talking about like that and jewish the the the rules about washing your hands which is like of course that the simplest and most effective form of in our hygiene and and prevent in preventing pathogens and and infectious disease anyway so super fascinating how how many of those laws makes sense like what you are allowed to eat and what you weren't laddie because or because of not having pigs use all sorts of purpose as a tariff rate and the ninety dimly cats because cats eat wrote to also carry any weight but it's like its super there's so much detail in there and it was is incredibly fastenings like there's when you think about like just the history of humanity and how this book has shaped people's lives for so long it's it's it's really are
it's really it's really fascinating but it is an amazing piece of historical literature it is amazing that so many people have not to use the term but uses gospel mean that with the right term rent and it's just i always feel strange whenever i read it whenever rita feel strange thinking about all the momentum and all the history that has been altered by these words and by the application of these words and your own history when your own life was essentially guided by the application of the interpretation of these words that were thousands of years old mean that is bizarre but then what even more bizarre to me is that twitters what snapshot of it is that interacting with p all through online was this open forum change of ideas and especially
twitter words as hundred forty character limit yeah that's it it really bugs me that twitter such a bad rap clearly i saved your life liberty sure this is twitter saved my life i i i think i might actually do they actually i wanted what are actually a year ago and am going next week to i didn't rayner trust in safety council reeling yeah that's always sound so or well now that i'm out some of the people that are on a narrow their foolish i don't a lot be asked social justice warrior nonsense goin on that i'm guys all i'm have we not on the censorship or trying to lake stop people like oh banning people i think so i don't i just don't know enough about all that right like as a problem but obviously like definitely on the side of of iron people to be able to control their experiences on twitter of course like so i mean you should be able to like stuff on
black people yet on all that stuff that's good right after i mean like so you should control your experience but like trying to stop people from like armies somebody's when it sweats criminal when people are threatening violence and threats of violence and i think that of course would be illegal it it's illegal shore should be allowed on the platform but i agree and harassment of your harassing people were trying to get people to harass people like you soliciting harassment right others like hey let's go go after the egg inches and believe in god's wordy more let's go get her right like those gonna org using the platform for any sort of a fucked up wayward yeah but an obviously without much more on the side i have like the importance of the marketplace and ideas in vienna to everything and who absolutely because people so many people we ve come to these we too bad ideas in so many different ways sometimes we argue ourselves there's on those are influenced by other people but the way out of it isn't a pretend urge to push it out of the public sphere to engage to shed light on it and to publicly are
you against it so the other people who might be tempted or starting to go down that path will understand others we need to have people who and articulate and defend good principles and to argue against bad ones so that good ones will rise to the top absolute mean that everything that's you and discourse in general it's one of the main problems with really did ideologies there's no room for that and then you just like it's got word in this is it you just have to trust it in theirs baby source in the ark and he's gonna go okay and because of that that that like i'm afraid who is mormon and choose mormon for a long time and then she they just sort of like drifted away they did it was kind of silly and then they were they read into the church and they start like how get started and they they decided may we should spend some time away and so they eventually left and why things that she said there was really fascinating she said
really susceptible to like like someone whose bullshit artist sleigh she's like easily influenced like too much socially growing up in this fundamental environment fundamentalist for where you dont question anything and just go along with the word she wasn't it leaves me really vulnerable to like being influenced rousing while as fastened she's got really gullible my wow cycle her structure of how she her quest turning muscles whirling wobbly and we can atrophy they didn't have any pep to them that's exactly what it is also about the decision making because if somebody else's always make decisions you never have to like the answer is already there free you don't have to figure it out for yourself so on both of those friends like when after my sister and i left it was this sort of like more or less constant
we are processing inch and asking these questions like i would have these so for instance like back to gay people after we left right so god in the sky wrote in an open letter like he'd been somebody that i had sparkles on twitter quite a bit and threaten to picket but never actually did he open letter after it might just when i published this statement essentially just a short explanation that you know we had left and that we regretted hurting people and that we were trying to find a better way to live basically just as we had been so public at the church which seemed like we had to it it seemed like and also that's how you get a so we did this he was open letter in response and invited us to church aurette hollywood united methodist church ah and he this he was gay he is gay as a dane church gore yes here and has he recognized reconcile only antigay stuff i was gonna say so you you said earlier that
it just be accepting like whatever you find in the bible see therefore you have to accept it and just go along with it no matter what we know what evidence or whatever seems to contradict it or whatever that's going to say that i encounter people for the first time including acts i'm actually sure how he runs as i think it has to do with the love of genes as and you know race and you know just that the old testament and whenever i am not exactly new trust to represent it as it does research well yeah so i honestly don't really know just la another war so that's it i say like i remember encountering for the first time christians who were willing to say like ya know the bible says that but i think that applied at a different time or i just don't believe that there are no more than one that has an old testament bible quote tattoo like hey you read the whole book man
i'm really annoy you say and they re not even listening but like that like i think that its honest right like to be able to say like yes i i i think this is good and too but to have the wherewithal to say like yeah this this is good this is wrong this of a bible has actually says hate the evil and love the good and i love that i mean i don't want a hate like oh i'm talking about never it's never about for me is about people about ideas like i think there are a lot of bad ideas inside china mind you i stood there are a lot about ideas there's a lot of people to get defined by bad ideas and i think that in that way the bible is a lot like people in that they give you take a really good person does something stupid does something wrong doesn't it back and it doesn't mean a bad pretty can't say like you are this
time you ran this red light and hit that car or you are this time or you would whatever you did you shouldn't have done that we may well have done impulsively what for whatever reason may i doesn't desolate defined you it's a moment in your life but we love define moments that and say that's you tie your word that is you you are bad and i don't like you now i hate you no matter what you do in the future you will be defined by this moment that you got drunk and drove a car whatever the fuck is it's it's so frustrating now like that we we the tendency now on you john ransoms book if you did i hear you're just yet so you ve been publicly shame the us like that that tendency that would lobby tit will end my family like this this its it wasn't notably judgmental like even within the church became even more so towards the end of it for my sister and i left where like everything
this is the way it my sister and i started talking about it after we like it's like everything looks bad is bad and everything that looks good is also bad like you once you if you can if you identify a person as some guy a troublemaker or you can just read into the worst intentions and motives when it's it's just as likely that its isn't that like to generalise the worst sorry it's gettin under john so sorry in some of the sound size i i can attack out of its active substance but you just don't want to generalise the worst about people and and and make it make that their entire identity rise the tendency to do that with people that are also there there are terrified of scrutiny coming their way so they do is they cast it all out on others instead of looking internally said look their own actions and blue they like to find a fall in person and then that is their main focus and you see people
when the time is ripe tabloid journalism is so fast many good the supermarket and you know in a mile hours don't cocaine you know it's like right there in front of you wouldn't know it's real who knows but it's like i want to see how he got cock reality do wrong when this person doing to drugs or whatever whenever anybody's doing she's leaving him for her lesbian and is now the stuff that we love when someone is someone did something back than everybody's watching it with love it because we all know that is some creepy shit that we ve done that if somebody found it and then everybody start talking about you'd be horrified so when you see someone getting caught publicly shamed and then this child on its very attractive to us in some weird way and almost cathartic and almost relief that it's not ass but it's oh dangerous right because that when when you make it when the penalty for speaking up and possibly
miss stepping in his written in and i don't have a holiday like my aggressions like i fact fundamentally like it's this like i understand like i'm not saying like i think it's really important like i was sent this to so many times like how we talked to people like it matters how you talk to people but if we're all looking for four offence we're gonna find it right and so what so the problem is like when people say something maybe not quite in exactly the right way or they like the way that we punish people when we make the penalty so high effort so to do go back to john john nonsense book the justine sancho in or shoot tasteless joke on twitter to her a hundred and seventy followers or whatever and then in blows up in her entire life is over people almost story will remember the joke yeah i'm going to south africa hope i don't get aids just kidding i'm right here these and that too
her life inside out right and i don't mean to say like i'm not saying like i'm just saying that there has to be more to get the look at grace like there's yes there is sir this is writer that i love actually and she says that the language of public discourse has lost the how she put it public discourse has lost the language of generosity like and that i think that really it's really terrible but like so when you make the cost of miss speaking or or of of maybe saying things in exactly the right way like we make that are so high what it does is it pushes out moderates and where you end up with people on both the two ends of these extremes and they are the only ones talking and then it just it just again reinforces this this in a cab suffocation and us them and you know tribalism and in its it's it's dress i think your honor percent right i also think there's something
that's going on where when you see someone do something really stupid like cathy griffin hold it up ahead of donald trump we realise that in our work day with our worst thought process worth circumstances that can easily be us the worst if you grew up in a fucked up way or you have some imbalance in your personal life or maybe have some chemical imbalance or you're depressed or and then you make a poor judgement call you get reinforced by other people around neither fools as well the next thing you know you're doing something dumb and that is that's why we like watching people balance and do handstands our buildings as we know the we ve taken risks we know we ve done something stupid you can identify those aspects of human behaviour in other folks and when they're doing something partake terrible there's a certain amount of relief that it's not you and it's a certain amount fascination of how will this play out in a certain how is this person recover from this all that stuff is very very intoxicating to us
as these tribal animals that live together and understand how valuable it is to have the love and support of your peers and then that hate is so dangerous the ostracism ostracizing of a person from the group the alienation of them from the social community the net the the knowledge that they have the people are talking about them all the time and uneven way cathy griffin she's on american geniuses burn in hell and all that is gonna be just eating away at or and we know it as one of them and so i would like to concentrate on it there's a certain amount of weird sort of voyeurism that's an involved in any any sort of public misstep that people have and then the pile on by a lot of people are just very very unhappy with their lives and so when someone else does something screwed up that they can take away some of the foe of their own missteps and focus it on
person and throw rocks and is also just the sense of of i mean righteousness year by the self righteousness they the m and this is why there's on did you see sir sovereigns new netflix by our so she your point she's talking about like going out to a picket westboro picket and while and i actually had seen she talked with him furthermore a few years ago to dismember like i i knew her as this lake i didn't really of course no her anything specific except where her her comedy she seemed kind of just loud and and the little or no she said things that will always make me cringe latest very like looking very blue and as you listen to her conway you're in the church a little like not alas me get now they're they're really like their constantly they call themselves there the watchers rights they are looking around the landscape and seeing like how the word of god applies to all these people they have to in order to comment on
what's going on i have to know what's going on so what people are saying and and the trends and and things so so yes i when i saw her no more i expected her to be i don't know the hostile and end whatever about we started talking about them but what she said what she said was always on the on the special the way she put it was i am there when she went out was was talking to members of my family and she said we have to see them as human and she was like kind i'm on a picket line like told it she said i told the duty joker whatever you know tried and though picketers i guess one of my cousins or something like sniggered in it when she when she makes us we have to see them as human and then maybe they'll start to see us as human and she put it on the on the netflix flesh was i am then like i am the product of my experiences and so are they and they are the only way
you can your changes things is to add to those experiences like to introduce like david did on twitter with me and my husband like introduces de as in ways that that people can actually hear them and and be moved by them you're gonna love categorize people into these rigid boxes that are unchangeable and that you this person you always be this person you are my enemy and you think this you think that you're a dirty abroad on europe disgusting republican and we have these weird ideological box is tat we love to shove people into that's a perfect example that i mean if they were little kids and they grew up in that church in their seven years old do we re we believe that they would have the wherewithal on the understanding of the full spectrum of human behaviour to say that this is wrong and that we should be protesting at the gate persons funeral and we should be holding up these signs say god hates rags because guy in fact or not i get are you write grandpa like who would have the mind what's incredibly brave
is that you deep into your twenties have this revelation and then have the courage to escape and so i want you back to that like what your job like what it was a first job you got so didn't get a job immediately i thought i had to i thought i have to be responsible like a person with my sister like we had some money saved us but we lived at home we didn't have a lot of expenses like we we used our money to travel across the country picketing but we still we still had some money wears out there because people are with and it is there that the greatest like i like it was always excitedly are you going to take a trip yet i'm goin was in my eyes and i was just like a part of life can judges to picket scientology little that's where we're going and clear water wants to super boring and there was nobody you gotta rank them gets my like george w bush is set
integration was like insane or was an there's like scientology all you otherwise like post nine eleven must yeah really rough to hold up those signs especially we had our scientists had thank god for nine eleven o god damn it and it s like we were station like at the intersection of these three streets and they were blocked offer the parade so like he finishes his inauguration speech in the sick huge crowd of people like hundreds of that what our how many thousands of people like flow down the thing and in their stuck in this in this intersection to go right past us on the sidewalk and so there is like this are neither seeing this like thank god for nine eleven and was rapped astronomy to so my mom had us i was holding the think i've seen armies or whatever and down like so people are just in re by the time they actually got to us like we're standing we re at the edge of these barricades looks on either side is the parade route and so like your people like jumping some guy jumped on my back like on one another licks stealing signs like jumped on your back yet
eggs i'm late my eye was like meaning over the barricades we couldn't steal my science are getting worse and like and so like one of my cousins actually gave his science to another church member and then was like standing on top of a trash can like going come on guys like just just don't worry about them they're not worth had there not worth it like but with my cousin whose just because it was so it got so physical like me are people and like the cost is losing you guys aren't worth he was trying to apprehending land he was what i'm yeah exactly while he answered lounge now and got pretty pretty company dicing but get violent we're going to jump on your back like what did he do so i will i'm holding my signs and unlike like by tucked myself into this barricades like there's nothing else he can do so and there was like those i should also say they were cops just on the other side of the barricade just like every five feet there was a coffin there's other like maybe fourteen thousand cops and easy that exercise first migration after nine eleven so anyway but so
in the end the cops from mostly just standing there like i look over the other guy gets off and my brother's standing next to me his seventy eight years he would have been like early twenties and this see that and then when he jumped over the barricade because the way people were coming after us and this car like pulls out a bit o club to in making us get back over the bed jumped back or on the other side like with these people who are and why doing anything but everyone the cops to risk their lives even though you're obviously provoking people i mean you're obviously putting yourself in a situation where saying something incredibly and all day and it is dead stating to all these people that lost friends and loved ones on nine eleven or in the tsunami or or family members at a gay she has really expect the cops are gonna take the beating for you or the cops you gonna get involved
for sure if we thought that it is like it's their job re they didn't never do what you did and write like would have would have some past sort of laws and listen you guys know what you're in four we have no desire help you they'll be no police presence would you still protest what we did that and that some that some cops did respond i would not say that there were no pre police presence ones remember yeah and some where was added care member but i have more than one more than once you have for sure and like sometimes the copsewood if we'd say we're gonna come to protests enough something in and they would say you know you can cut but you cannot sign or you can't tell you seven flag or that are sometimes tells invent sometimes they wait till we get stuck on the floor here like we desecrating the flag was a bigot we saw it doesn't idle and you know the american flags and i don't like my mom got arrested i had a beer in nebraska and my little brother liberal protesting against holder's funeral and we were like far away from the church but there is
group of people on the other side the street and they were all holding american flags all the way from from the road all the way up this in the long entry to the to the church we were quite far away and my brother was nine years old at the time and he did what he always at which was put down lay the americans on the ground and stand on top of it and hold a picket sign and within a couple of minutes nine cops showed up and started talking about arresting my mother for flag mutilation and contributing to the delinquency of a minor and so before they do the arrest in again my mom and my uncle were both there and there are both lawyers and my uncle's like you know john in versus texas the supreme court said in that case that you can you can you delete now i can you mutilate a fly you can even burn it and enough perfectly lawful and one of the cops is like we're not in texas or in nebraska
so like this legacy supreme court case huts and he said through court has jurisdiction all over the country so i guess what i'm saying is like that the way that sometimes that they did sometimes there are real good cops who did their job more super professional and didn't their beliefs about her in religious blazer there what they thought about our message given the of them doing their job but sometimes in it they were threatened to arrest you know my our parents if they brought children they take their toll away from them you know things like that but but we absolutely expected them to do their job like that that was in this is it's really mean i know you're not justifying it but it's from the point of view of something like me someone like me i i would say that don't bring any there are no of you if you start that kind of shit at a few
or for a soldier and a bunch people combine beat your ass well then don't do that again because you're pissing people often you hurt in their feelings and you're dealing with some was already emotionally scarred those cops need to be out there stoppin raw breeze and breaking and entering into people's houses and carjack kings and that's what they're supposed to be doing that's supposed to be like helping out people were intentionally provoking and emotionally dud disturbing people right but i mean so i must say from the turkish respective it's like it's these are sincerely held religious beliefs and first moment what good is the first amendment like this it is there but it's not a first amendment issue like differently but because the that's no one in official position is saying you cannot speak also dickens that too like the campus what's going on these campuses right where are you think that the cops shouldn't be there to protect those people there there provoking people and making them angry way
different sort of a scenario i think the cops should definitely be there to prevent violence i campus for several reasons one reason because i think you're dealing with very young very impressionable people who make very poor choices and feel justified because their around a bunch of people that also have like minded ideas lot of peer pressure a lot of diffusion of responsibility that comes from these mass groups of people that are acting in the mouth mentality that comes along with i think it's very very important debate them from themselves and it's a hot but an issue i think protestors a soldier's funeral is just grows secondly i mean i know you do know you do mean but i'm just saying i don't think the cops our responsibility to save you from being gross i just i don't know i mean that obviously this was a supreme court it became do you know that that it this there was a hey where he pursued by their the church
i do remember that hat and how that play out it it went on the first thing they wanted ten point nine million dollar verdict against us at the trial court and then it was reverse at the appeals court in the supreme court said eight hundred and twenty one they have its the constitutional right for the do this as is their religious beliefs have a right they were especially because i mean with some i am i will say it like a light and i described to you that very first picket soldiers funeral picket that i went to like that was very close quarters you know and we were right up on top of them like if we had chosen to seeing or would know that they would have hurt us but in a lot of instances we were way far far like in that instance that went through court they were more a thousand feet away there is like a hill they defend didn't see church members in things like that there is so i mean they have a right to do it who i was wrong with the church
ok i have a right to decide their right to dilated say horrible things about someone who just dire someone who lost a sun or a daughter and war yeah i think obviously i don't i think it's terrible that they do it that was actually one of the things you know before my sister and i left that was one of her i was get a hold a sign that i didn't believe was true and i was to go to any more funeral protests reproducing to the police should i mean they're u their operating on tax dollars and it's a limited amount of real resets i mean we're taxpayers right i mean sugar but do you think they sang resources should get out of the wheel made how do i know i know but do you think that really that the cops that's the and as an intelligent and adequate and fair use of resources to go and protected two troublemakers tell at it it depends on what how you fatty feel about the first moment like it the it's it's it's the principle of the thing rather than the applications like this just one application like so so whose
deciding on its very that's the whole idea like so who widen we have not intrusted our government to decide what opinions are acceptable and what are so they they don't there they don't get too hat legs whoever it seems like your organizing this solely organizing this sort of antagonistic display where you know you're gonna we know that gonna make of our land jurists tight don't you think you should hear your own security but why should the police have to be there to secure you because because this is the law like that they are supposed to protect like the again what what good are first amendment and reiterate the to be able to to say its innocent protect popular speed it's right because problems because need protection unpopular speech needs protection so it's just again it's there
but the police are really they are due in force laws with a liar you don't get a punch somebody re under there's so soon but i'm not gonna go back ok so france's i've got does back to the campus thing for a second you have these people who have announced we're gonna go protests espresso we're not gonna let them speak even though they have been given permission by the everybody like that they're going they should be able to speak right we're we're locked item speak because we too like their message so if the cops well that's going to happen next it was a what happens but i'm just turn it on demanding about through them shut down on but i'm saying i think that's wrong i think they should be able they should go and like this is what leaving the car hughley nato is what it's called right i think an in inflicted the cops can't say will obviously this is still back till it it's not if the cops say well you can't speak because you are likely to cause a riot or people too in of some some kind of disturbance like they are not allowed to do that based on like a if it's just that
religious opinions we weren't saying we want you to hurt us we're not trying to provoke you to harass we're trying to deliver this message that we think is the truth of god right so it wasn't there is a difference between like delay lee provoking and inciting violence like deliberately inciting violence and what we were doing which was in trying to put proclaim this i said that we thought was the truth our goal wasn't violence we didn't want violence that's why we contacted the cops where we were going to attack them and and we didn't want to be attacked we just wanted to be able to exercise our rights without fear of with fear of violence at that's that's the principles of of our democracy right so i see what you're saying and i think that its gets a little weird war talkin about people giving speeches canvas and then having other people shut down those speeches because i think that the people who are pro testing have as
much right especially if it's in their school they have as much right too is their concern for this message as the person does distribute that message and if the police come along and say we're going to shut down the distribution of this message most attended when things are out of hand so an axe tool for someone is trying to silence peoples to make sure that things get out of hand so that having the cops present like an and letting both sides have their voices without visible in the bill to resort to violence of this is the whole idea like we would in these letters that would go out to the cops was that the idea of having buffer zone like yes we're going we want to proclaim our message we want to be out there to look we loved and i honestly we love to encounter protesters there because it has brought more pension dormice i understand that but i just think that you shouldn't i was there you anymore but i do not think that any
bunny especially from an offensive group like that should be able to allocate resources that are public use local police listen we then we will make the descent like we didn't make the disease and for them to like they decide like ok well is this likely going to look so they can either be proactive and set the buffer zone or be reactive like we're calling the cops because we're getting lunched or whatever and cause like they're going to out no matter one was a wee wee when even when they would say we're not gonna protect you were we would go am there were obviously with a rare situations where sufferance like when gabby give her the shot in arizona we had a couple of an fbi agent actually end a guy from the local police department come and say like you should go in there there's an eight year old girl who had been killed in the church said arena protest her funeral algae and so they said i don't think we can protect you like this it's too all adults too and so in that case we didn't act we actually didn't go
let's go chicken shit response actually eyes as i say i like so its hope that the thing is i was there in doing conversation and my hurt my mama's explain that we were gonna go it actually had more to do with logistics like we couldn't get there like tickets and whatever like we just couldn't get there so is like ok i guess like i hear you but i so reasonable so fascinated talk to you because you're such intelligent reasonable person it's almost impossible for me to imagine in two i see like the little bit of resistance to the de of this being a first amendment issue in the police it then kind of go back to the church i could see it boil up an aside you let's just like we are talking about this a little bit of time into the hole the importance of discourse in the marketplace and ideas this is one like like again i i i just think it so porn and i think it's important you know because obviously my own personal
variants makes me sir your believer in what you ve done journey through free speech than most people never experience free speech you dont even agree with anymore threat now is even more crazy so let's get back to you first job what was known as the first job worked at a very briefly like so i should say my mr we were in it was a couple months before it actually got a job we spent the first month with a cousin of mine who left the church a few years earlier she lived really close she had left her as well yeah so you guys knew some people had made it right about like a thing is it there's there so many my sister calls them might fucks rights like the thing about people who leave that very demonized more than anybody else even more than gazer jews or any other outsider its ex members who get the worst you hear the worst things about because they knew the truth and they rejected it right so i was why wouldn't when it
can when it why i thought of leaving like the last thing on my mind was that i could go to an ex member i thought you can trust them their evil exhorts since this whole intensely negative instinctive reactions to do those things but i was egg overcame came and i reach out to her a few weeks before we left and she was amazing within i talked to her in three and a half years and had said all kinds of terrible things about her after she left but what she was wonderful and she said like with like thirty seconds look like when i ate when she understood that i was you know planning to leave i wish i can live with me and it was it was amazing and so kind and so wherever they are for about a month my sister was stolen school so she was we are travelling back to camp the to pick us our ethics was half an hour for my cousins house anal forty
the week while she was still in school and so we but which were constantly running into our family driving by the pickets cause they picket everyday and because several times a day and at the grocery store and on campus and so it was just we needed it away so instead of going to deadwood south dakota a hum my brother then a fan of the tv show and i thought and it does seem like a nice quiet like play so how many people went with use you your sister and your brother now i just just union shows in estonia join you after awhile a brother who left about a year and a half after my sister and i did and i have another brother who left about eight years before i did want so another seven eleven gets so seven are still at home and for us to talk to them
yeah the applicable out yeah what about the people who know that they don't have anything to do with us now just like i'm doctor mom no no rush it they are but the thing is so back to twitter thick that's how i know what they are whether up do you like us i see fought like they post photos like i'm watching my little brothers grow up on their photos on twitter and you know seem but my parents why magazine it's awful i mean it's it's i'm glad i'm so glad to be living now and not you know before social media where i can actually see these things and a no there are two and a little bit of how do you want to reach out i do you do yeah i mean it i do on twitter is here this is great about twitter sometimes like i have been blocked me on my main account blocked not all of them but a lot of them through mom blocking
she actually created she she got kicked off of twitter at one point thirty thousand so she did bought me under new account of yet but it had locked account yeah why here ass deep mom blush what it's it's a big thing right when you see that you're blocked what is that what is a lump in your throat like dissuade imagine like it i can't believe like it so hard to think back to like i was in credit the close with my mom and i i love her and mr like acer make coffee every morning in like we ve gone walks together and with one arm and spoke to her well actually i i saw her at a picket a little over a year ago should amuse you didn't say anything to me she knew talk to know sheikh she couldn't like baby the from her body love doing
is you she can't like it's there is it so when i think about like when i was at the church and this is one of the hardest things to articulate i maintain that the feeling of like when somebody leaves like there is no interaction so it some people ass like all what you saw her at such a place in a wherever that the grocery store whatever what what would you say they would ask me this whilst at the church and it is so it's like i i don't make a purchase like dividing by zero like this situation does not exist like there's nothing there the idea of trying to talk to her it is impossible right and so crazy that's the now the exact reorient the third like jehovah's witnesses they call it a destroyer shipping rain we all have
ex munich scientology houses have it's one of the ways they control people the fear of alienation and declared a charming like them yeah exactly so they'll talk to gay people talk to people the rainbow shirts on we'll talk to ex soldiers don't talk to those people they won't talk to you that's insane but this is not a model acid when one of them like things about twitter and and address the internet in general is that it's a thing where so like they obviously like my little brothers sounds like they are in a hearing all bad stuff about you know me mr me anybody who leaves the door your bad things about us but good thing by the inner is that they can go on they can go to my twitter account see what i'm actually saying so and so i go through these phases relic i i i will tweet and i get like i can't i just like that
fear of judgment i guess for my family i just i just choose to focus on other things and not postings on twitter but like i said follow them on this other account that i created that's not blocked right and it's just the bbc accounts so i see like things it they say and like it doctrines that i now believe our unscriptural and suchlike i will treat them you know eighty versus like that by what this kind makes you like and try to like basically doing i was doing for them now against them like just in this work citizens as an end so there is some engagement a little bed with my family on twitter because especially because of it like anything that i do publicly so maybe something about this i don't know but like mama tat came out there was a couple of articles in people are tweeting it allowed and and so my uncle and my aunt both retweeting tweeting me
and reading about me and so i was you know we're having this report i guess like this you know going back and forth about these these bible verses and and debating and so all that stuff is it's it's i hope at some point hopefully will have will have some effect and in some ways it it already has so like the day that i left there was a we're gonna get to that job on the day that i one of my cousins you know came into my bedroom while i was crying and packing and it was asking like just very calmly like this my best my best friend she was a year older than me is that you're lonely and she asked me why relieving and i'm describing a lot of things and one that i described physically two signs one of them was the death penalty for fags and another one was facts care repent and she
sent me a message the next morning and i was describing verses that i thought you know contradicted those two signs and the following she sent me a message attack was it super early in the morning just like just doing me out basically like that and i know that the vigorous and romans one like the dead death you like there's no it isn't you have no argument like so so what's yours the your problem and so and then for a while after i left like those signs relic everywhere like she's holding my cousin changed your profile picture on twitter to her holding those two signs ex screaming into the camera and leg one of the elders like making a snow angel with those two signs that and so there doubling down on that's right end this goes on its during this time like i'm talking about it in giving a few interviews like talking about their like on twitter a little bit like reiterating the verses that contradict them
then like after more than two years i wake up one morning and i checked you know checking their twitters and there is a blog post and they said about that fags care repent sign and i was like oh my god open the blog post and it's for the first time ever they had publicly disavowed assign and using the same viable verses that i had been and i know that like a very small point with in the grand scheme of things right but that's that's reason those critical reasoning but so this is this the right selector knowing this is like why do you tell the story behind it i doubt i dont it was after my my brother left so i don't really know nobody nobody whose left since then i also have to do actually of my cousins have left since then also but none of them have any understanding of like of what happened so i don't know not like i'm not trying to take credit i shall say like what does it matter
it is a matter like this matters is that date decide to change is possible yeah zambia gets there had that what they're doing it's this is in any way the teachings of christ re emmy like the thing is excellent some of it is some some of it as yet but like those that are there on aids flagstaff who like so it's crazy because like this is only when i didn't realize until after we left also but like we thought the right hold you about love thy neighbor like they have a silent love thy neighbor equals rebuke rake that's in leviticus nineteen that's how it is ives loves zoo morning your labour when you see them sitting so that we have an opportunity to repent but the one i myself in the new testament jesus is talking with the sky and the guy says like how do i inherit eternal life and he says will jesus of what is known as the scriptures ay and he says to love god and love your neighbour and he says you're right he says and who is my neighbour
and jesus tell the story of a good samaritan so like this into dino story how do it son so this man as this man falls among thieves and they beat him and leave a map of half dead the bitter and ties have ten or and still his clothes and and leave him there has a priest goes and sees the man and he crossed the street and walked back the other side and then leave it is also like dealing with the things of god right he got zack something crosses and and goes on goes on his way doesn't help them and then the samaritan stops and binding his wounds and puts him on his own has put them on his own beast and takes into an end and give the innkeeper money to take care of them and says anything you spend more than this i'm going to i'll pay back when i when i come again so he's like actually play
to be taken care of him so in jesus says and who do you think wish which of these was neighbour to the man who felt fell among thieves and he said he who has mercy on em so in that is what i'm saying is like we reduced loving our neighbour to preaching to picketing to put words on signs and going out pushing them that's what we thought loving our neighbor was but the one timely example that jesus gives is not preaching like lead and go like this american didn't go and say like this haven't you because you're a sinner repent he went in help them right and so like where was that on our picket signs were white on in your practice yeah like widen exactly exactly like why why didn't we why didn't we make that an issue for ourselves like a primary part of our theme ology and why didn't we encourage others to do it to anyway though again this is something that i didn't realize until after i was struck into a couple of christian
friends of mine who who pointed that out nose like i cannot believe i missed that like all those years like what crazies like the un in the story the priest and alleviate or the people who are like in dealing with the things of god right so presumably preaching it's not enough i can that's not back that's not the fulfilment of that yeah so anyway there's six so many of these things that i just couldn't see when i was at the church because again you're in this it's it's kind of echo chamber that clearly we had access to the outside world we're having these discussions but the problem with that discussion is that in a lot of he's as people just didn't understand what our theology actually was how we actually thought which is why in david added by making this don't you us like the fact that this was an ongoing conversation that he really got into the nuances of our theology and could really understand where i was coming from to be able to make the point in a way that i can understand and that's i mean
kind of in a position to do that with my family now anybody any of us who leaves and who understands you know can can try to push back in wait it's a lot more effective than people who just don't understand whether where they're coming from so yet this job yeah i got it edward missus rennie at a dead end we were only gonna be there for a month and and they were gonna go back grace was gonna go to school and asking to get a job and then i was in deadwood for a couple of weeks i like i could the idea of going back to kansas and like being back in the shadow of the church like seeing our family all the time and like see them and not like this it's it's constantly being face to face with rejection round the p well that we love the most and like the idea of going back to that environment like i'll cousin was wonderful and i love her dearly like i just couldn't go back there so like the day fourthly deadwood grace decided to try out for a play their agenda
greed to stay with me we change like oliver glasses to be online were and were saying with jehovah's witnesses which we didn't know that when we looked at it was an urban be my first our first urban basely beautiful old house in the black hills and see aliquid bathed they thought at first when they realise like what was happy like who we were we start having these conversations in that we find other jehovah's witnesses and date they thought at first that we might be dispelled worshipped witnesses before they realize that we were at the church it was just like this is insane conversations about you know turning theology and interpretation and it was the sole mind longing to see that there are other ways of understanding these texts that are consistent with the tax but totally different than we understood anyway the husband then is to call on the marketing company and edward terrific job there portend so what is your process or what's the journey from leaving the church going to dead wood and then
becoming a sort of self proclaimed atheist but how do you how do you complete we remove yourself from the shackles of ideology or did you know so it's it son it's dead i didn't want to do anything is possible it's not like i'm a switch flips is everything that you knew is gone they obviously very rational yeah so it was like each each time we presented with a situation that that so like gay people or jewish people or these like jehovah's witnesses it was obviously i had the instinctive responses to their ideas and so but each time i would feel feel something it would look i would just like to ask myself these questions you know what are my feeling why am i feeling it is this just instinctive what is the evidence like does what makes sense like it's sort of like having to it should to try to reconstruct like
actually look at the evidence again like starting from scratch basically in a lot of ways so so each time or when presented with these situations like you know it's i'm saying there's always like to prince gay people like that actually didn't take that long to change like because i had met a lot of gay people like walls at the church and and they we left in you know we're talking to them and unlike you know i i i was doing the right thing and and and i'm sorry like i didn't i didn't intend to her to hurt you or two to say her full things about you like i thought i thought it was the true than now i don't know what the truth is i don't know i don't know what i believe i don't know i don't know what i'm doing and people i mean they responded to that i mean like they were really understanding and am pathetic in a way that i never imagined people would be like
and how i love you ve seen like gets is really hurt me stilted too back and watch some of those videos because it so it's i know it zactly where i was coming from at the time but it's so like the arrogance in the car dissension and the certainty that we were right and now course knowing like all the reason why i dont believe nothing that's very strange strange dynamic but anyway like the fact that people were understanding in spite of that long history of all the things that i had said and done at the church was was was overwhelming and and and wonderful but anyway psych being basically my sister in our basely putting ourselves over an over we were been deadwood for very long when i got a message from david is on my on my birthday and i i told him that we had left and you know he
he saw it stop treating he knew something was ok some tweeting several months earlier and so he by to come to the judicious festival which was a few weeks later thick end of february or something beginning of march and i had put us at the delicious like three years earlier and all these like negative associations and feelings about jewish people but relays i don't know anything about jewish people like britain resting the synagogue in in topeka like all my life but i haven't i don't really know what do other than we know just generally who jesus and reject him as the saviour so therefore there like without hope but i didn't know really much about jewish theology i didn't know anything about jewish people like had never really spent time with them so so i where to go to the festival my sister needed because we wanted tat we were to me jewish people and linked to this whole it's this examining process like what we believe and why and what an and we got so much like light and sort of way
from other people like learning what they believed and why you know so and then david said yeah but you have to you have to speak at the festival and i was like no no that's not burning like i can't i can't imagine facing these people that i have spent so many years i thought i just it just seemed impossible and terrified me to becoming face to face with you and i had an amount of the church the three month yet so's enjoy scary but my sister was like we're like she she knew that it would we needed this experience of of like of learning about jewish people and if the cost was we have to talk about fine and still also said later she knew how to most of the talking salts like ok fine so we went in and we spoke there and then i thought ok that's great now we're gonna like we need to figure out like greece
kept saying we want to do good that had been the motivating principle of our life was to do good and now we realized we did so much damage and end so anyway so we were find a way i wouldn't know what to do like how do you move forward from there and so we we just need to know so your kind of drifting that full first year we we basically a month was the longest we spent anywhere we were in a word visit ex members of the church you know who were across cut my dad's family who we never knew were growing up because they were never part of the church so me like we had seen them like would come visit for a few hours sometimes or maybe a clear allowed to visit them for a while but then my several years before we left they cut off all contact with his family there also been very limited already but then so you haven't spoken do doubt either so he spoke to his family his his parents and his is rather late
my my grandmother i called her about a month over a month after we left for my first nights and edward and i told her we laugh and she just immediately started crying she said i ve been waiting for this for thirty years like she had my older brother had one of my older brothers had left since since might have had joined the churches what you're saying in a she my dad's parents are so there's their amazing people like it is it was clear forestry retired from me from the air force and in their their wonderful people oh we could see of them was what their divorcing remarried there they're going to help their bad influence and like it too it's it's insane to me now to think like my grandmother has been without her son like her son for decades and how painful that that must be like i've only been it's been four and a half years since i left
and what am i gonna be doing and in thirty years like how my where what is what is the matter now too crazy journey you ve been on been on for just a half years it's really anything really work when did it solidify in your head that you were gonna like identify or leaks beaten as a non believer this morning i mean like so i was actually i could to sam about this a few months ago like because like there's there's there's pardon me that lake i mean when i said when a lot and a of people here jerk when they hear atheist end i use that word for myself atheists either an end and this because like it it entails like it seems to bring in like this ideally you're so certain you're certain there's no god you mock people who are religious you dont like them in all this and i i i don't feel like and i also feel like
i am i am open to evidence you know like i haven't like decided there is no god it's like i just i just to see the evidence and so i i don't believe in if there is evidence like i wanna know like i am i gonna talk to religious people all the time and i think about the a lot i just i can't not like it also becomes there's a group mentality involved in aviation and theirs one of the reasons why was reluctant to identify as an atheist is that so many people were asking me to identify an atheist like we do you a shit why do you want you come out told him religious rang like but especially a spell with the idea that there cannot be a god there cannot be any sort of a higher power and that after you die it just ends or how do you oh right exactly and that's exactly what i am it's not a knowing for certain that there is no god it's a i just
believers so little we know about human life and forget about the idea of possibility of after life for the possibility of what consciousness is the possibility of what this concept that we call soul is what it what is that more forget about psychedelic experiences and what are they represent and what what what are they that when they come from but essentially is human neuro chemistry there's the most potent ones are chemicals that are just in the brain their endogenous of the human body and what what are those experience and how why are they so akin to religious experiences and why why do people even leave now especially these scows in jerusalem connected the burning bush of moses with the acacia bush which is a bushes rich and psychedelic chemicals and they think that is entirely possible that moses had a psychedelic experience in which he came back with although laws that human beings are supposed to be living by as proclaimed
i the great spirit of the universe or whatever the hell i encountered a coup who knows but this idea that people love to say you know is tat there is no god like does just a silly saying there is one rain and this is why like they like the whole process sincerely i like it wasn't like reinforced by the idea of choosing another belief systemic howard i learn honest about jehovah's witnesses no link like ok i've it's mostly internally consistent i think there's a lot of ice i never was like tempted to join them whenever an extra they naturally there not dared not when it is any more like they're not since the other left a little over a couple years ago although lived while giving the you guys leaving and having these in conversations with them in their home my head southern do the i am we're still really get incidentally there is some of my best friends i don't i don't that was that directive a thing there was a part of the whole journey yeah
i think so we would have these long conversations and actually i was the craziest thing when i found out like that that they had left like it was it was thus in other names laura was her birthday and then if so is it don't celebrate birthdays slightly is talking on the phone i didn't even know is it worth isaac s spirit hung on the phone for like over an hour and i was telling you about us all these things i've been thinking about it like an at the end the conversation she's like it's like well it's my birthday today and celebrating it and i just like was shocked i didn't say anything for a like i i obviously like knowing what that and it was different wasn't as like as me for them you know like it wasn't does their level of black i know that disorient nation in the laws and that like all that it's complicated like you don't wanna like oh my gosh i'm so well you're out of this because they think they believe some things that are really kind of nuts but but so i was just like very cautiously
i don't know what happened but just now that i have always like loved and cared about them and and you know like but i was so eager to have you covers liked to understand what had happened with them and it's kind of just just fine following the like how much internal inconsistency like when you're saying earlier about them the idea about the bible in board board have gotten the quality trick there's no way you can argue around that this is why its i think in turn inconsistency like in the doctrines themselves like that's scene to be a really important way to get two to get in to get through that like all of you of doubt yeah because that's it you have to its finding the ink distance in these two believes that allows you to maybe question the bigger things the bigger principles and enraged adding it's important to ask the questions of matter what you believe it's important to question and to always be looking in examining for new evidence because like you talk about a lot but
confirmation by us and and cognitive dissonance like bees these things that keep us lock into these belief systems and end impervious to change her were not even impervious but like like resistant to it we want to be like opening and so this is i mean so try to do this and that is why like how do you do you ve ever want to i grab your mom and go you gotta listen to me for an hour just let's talk i would if she i would love to talk to her if she would listen to me what she she's women look do you know knocked at the door rang your doorbell that that's having to come tat not me my sister anne and like that close the curtain the window and turn off the lights inside the help that happen once but here they do they want and this is why is pass which hear this year she would listen to this i think it is possible i mean i think something somebody at the church will listen to it for sure
this is the thing like when people lee like everything that we say it must be any of us who leave that we say and do publicly that europe is very close attention to it like when i was at the church i did the same thing and partly so like needing to know like what they're saying that you can have a good explanation like his usual counter it effectively i am near the shore and port points agenda but so this is why another reason why it became evident that i couldn't hide forever like if i were the hiding following the rules pretending like none of this happened like not causing any waves further church metallic and doesn't change anything like the only thing that helps is is talking about it like an end because a here's anything like even if i like privately in in letters like yours things that i sent to my parents or other church members like they're not gonna i mean the problem now going to share those with my siblings and if they do it's gonna be with a whole bunch of you know what
against me at the same time like it's it's but only by talking publicly can you in that's how they can actually see who you really are and what you really think in what you really gone through without the filter of what these horrors are doing things like that like it's it's giving your kids are you're your brothers and sisters you gonna hear this i think someone i'm definitely might definitely might do you have hoped that they will eventually bolt i do i hope that day not not because of any i hope they can hear the reasoning and see see the consequences of what they're doing for other people end up a lot of it i mean is unscriptural and so even even by their own understanding like they there there are things that contradict them i hope that they in our minds and at the very least i hope that the church continues to moderate till now
be so a lot of their new signs are things like another one of the big things for me was impractical they're right which is this idea was word in predatory like regulatory he took my router word praying for curse as for your enemies right oh god right so we did this raid curse against your enemies own often yeah while that seems credibly non christian right but there is that like david king david so use old testament though it is it true was it is of the things like you know we swedes took that as an example for us so he prayed for his enemies for their children to be fatherless and for their wives to be widows and so he's a prank god you do all these are bad things then said the romans use praying gents thrones know is it david philistines and saw i guess but
bite solution that is an example rain praying its enemies so after we left i sent is your contact in my is my dad and i talked about this problems like david also had a lot of wives but we don't take his ample as that men should have many wise and above and why doors because it contradicts what jesus and the apostle paul said about marriage ring one man one woman for life right so there is a new way right so an jesus and paul both also said that about loving your enemies bless them that curse you and pray for them than despitefully use you and persecute you see you're supposed to be praying for the good of your enemies rain and so that it is a contradiction brown and self anyway it's another like a long time like there's been like a bunch of sermons like and now my grandfather pathway three years ago and so
there's eight elders and there the eight pastors and might might out as one of them so there's been a series of sermons on in purgatory prayer since then and there like it seems like it seems so confused because like on the one hand there are still kind of justifying it but also it just seems like their turn you're trying to reconcile things that are irreconcilable so so but a lot of the then till they stopped i should say there used to be a flyer that went on every like friday and that used to say like thank god for fifteen dead soldiers we pay for fifteen thousand more and so it would list all the soldiers who died that that week end with an effect after like eight months my dad gave a sermon about purgatory prayer like at the time when i first in a sad that we know there is he put video news explain like why in purgatory prayer is the thing and in its work by the bible eight months pass he gives a sermon about loving your enemies within a couple weeks that
where was changed now it doesn't say that we pray for fifteen thousand more haven't seen the first part is the first part still think so they they say because gotta sovereign have to thank him for everything so the fact that these are still thank god for fifteen did so yeah so the second part i'm just trying to say is like they're there has been some moderation and a lot of the new signs are things like be reckoned to god and christ our hope things like that like that but are not got his bags like those are a hindrance its improvement at the very least even though there are still obviously these these harsh things as well as others some adjustment and some consideration is so you don't archer down anymore either right no one is while is there anything that you think that you can do other than continuing to speak and continue
to to do what you're doing that a reach them so i mean i almost finished writing a book from nearing the brook to them it is it is both for them and also for for other people there's a part of this kind of what i was giving we ask what you writing a book or yet letters to my mom and so it's not it's not it's not right quite that way my as oh i actually did consider doing it that way but we ended up like right now it's based on each chapter is based on a relationship the sort of brings us like the start of my mother and then my grandfather and sort of like coming into this ideology and then the process of all the like the mental machinations of of leaving unlike how my mind change over time and then what since we laughed legal and i hope that by enough for my family i hope that by articulating these things in
in a way is obviously weren't we're sitting here and even if we talk for a lake how many hours like there's only so much that it's not the same as having it and in a way that hopefully very clear and and and and honest to the experience like in as much detail and and clarity it with his machine curtis possible i think that that's i hope that that will will be effective in at least showing them that there is a different way there are other ways of understanding these things and so i do hope that i guess i also hope in my ted talk i i i i i feel really like hesitant about like trying to teach anybody anything at this point in order mainly because i spent my whole lifetime other people how to live and now to be like what you guys note
i got this like now i got you know like i just the idea of lake insinuating even in any way that i have something to tell people about anything like i am i really don't think that idea at all and the only reason did the tat john runs and actually as though you reach me about about doing ex he it was a thing that he was creating an event that use careering creating and as our era the first of the talk and end the curator skinner came back after whose like will think that this is how can we avoid the mistakes that you made and so like and i went back and like took samples from david and my husband the way that people on twitter gave me that actually helped help change things but so i saw it not explicit in that way in the book but i hope that just by talking about this telling stories like i when i reed accounts of people have gone through similar situations it it's so helpful to me like
realized like my family like yes they man their their activities are are kind of their extreme and like they manifest themselves in very strange ways to most people but there very calm men very human flaws and if if anything that if i talk about this in a way that helps other people see it in their own lives or than you know resonate with people who have gone through some more things like that's i think i want to do that i want to do as much good with these experiences as i can because just because i that's how much raise me on but their argument of course would be you know you were so right and so convened when you were with the church now you're so right and so convinced now they are outside the church how do you know your line so that the latter not the same it's not the same at all like i'm not i do not walk through the world with the sense of with that sense of certainty and and
in my position and righteousness of my position i am asking questions and i'm i'm trying to explain what why i believe differently now than i did i'm still the questions that like i never stop like you know mean i mean it's is theirs is such a many different way of engaging the world do know what you mean but if i was on their side and i was trying to pick holes in your statement which is what they seem to do right if their lessening the things you say there listen things you say so they encounter them with some sort of i will quote reach some sort of a more articulate opinion reign of i was listening may i would say you were so convinced when you with us now you're so convinced but now you don't even have god yet how could be right so the thing you're deluded satan serpent scales or covering your eyes for this action this is other another one of the paradox is that i realize before i left so there's this version and this is one that my mom make was good quote all that
growing up and with urgency like she needed us to understand this and in the verse is the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked and who can now and right so so far the heart was good home with the heart is a hard is like people being sweet and the human heart is inherently and according to the churches inherently deceitful right ok but the problem is they also talk about the heart ass being like that's how we know that the bible is truth has forgotten or god put in action on our hearts deceitful little heart yes exactly see your at the end of the day it's always our own heartsick it's our hearts that say okay well i'm going to follow the bible no matter no matter what or it another at the end of each one of us is always making indecision it's just that for them they they think
outsourcing it and saying that owed north the bible take well you're the it's your turn to articulate an unsolicited sam's same heiresses show a couple years ago like but it's that i read it actually in his book like that's what helps me like it's it's her own moral impulses that are authenticating the truth of the bible right so at the end of the day it still you it still your judgment you're the guy of your own deceitful heart so again from their perspective so guess what i'm saying now i like i'm not when i when i talk to my family when i'm addressing them like it's it's with these questions like i know how you understand these verses but what about these things that contradict them wrong i'm not hang you're wrong i'm saying i can't see how your right because of these verses how do you do is running you understand this what about versus the contradict other verses in the bible
they the church doesn't believe and that that is that those contradictions exist to the one you talk about those contradictions which are pretty clear what what do they say while also lord works mysterious ways you might get by there's there's always that like if if you think there's a friends like back to the like free will the amateur aside the predestination thing that god designing people to go to hell and then holding them responsible so there's this this is a contradiction re this the idea that you are responsible right you're and responsibility and god sovereignty they don't go to their rights also quote you see their quota man's there is a man's responsibility and god sir aren t they do go together by the court in the bible and waves phrased which the name an old man who art thou there are placed against guy you're ok yeah
shallow thing form say to him that formed it why hast thou made me thus so yeah thought that those ideas are inherently their inconsistent right there at their contradictions and so gramps i'm a work one day and in church he was recalled gramps grandpa families as acute may disgrace which are evil dude the high level is that he could be sounds easy grand pony angelic itself and clicking again funny oh hello area really was in sweden you are very soon he would sing song from the forties and cause migrating beautiful dal like us if you'd call us and love bug so you miss you you didn't get to see him before he died because you left i can talk about that you can i can't not less humanist our kind i want all sorry ma am but by his father
leader is even on an eye he is that does just that deep for all the stuff you talked about like can talk dear you can't talk to your mom but something about your grandpa he special i'll tell you later ok ok in the eyes of most people he was the boom voice of hate for sure and i told you understand it is not so fast moving though that you could see someone an intimate way you'd love them their family you get to see all the positive aspects of em and yet dig it to see this venom that he spews out all the world and that that also represents you guys in your family your idea algae in your behind this powerful leader he's the founder fathers reiser essentially he's the man who created the very bar that imprison your family right now i know and it's it's so and this is one of the things in after after i laughed like thinking about like how did we get here
how do we end up in this place to understanding of psychology or a lack of the press with any sort of ideology rigid ideologies that are backed up by a deity is there can be no questioning since there can be no questioning your do talking about human language in talking about something the king obviously from the words of human beings they they wrote those words down they put them somewhere and now you're reinforcing this ideology anyone with even a basic understanding of how easily influence people and about our out a male chimpanzee history or lower pay made history we know what the word incredibly susceptible to influence an incredibly susceptible to the whims of the group mindset and that this is imperative for survival these tribal instincts that we have in peril four survive on the reason why we made it to two thousand seventeen and that these play against us in forms of ideology in these very wrong
gently reinforced behaviour patterns that is what that's what that then when the problem because atheists versus the people who were deists r p who are christian or muslim or whatever the fuck it as it has nothing to do with that honestly is just about mind about humans and about our art into our inherent tendency to give in to these these predetermine patterns of behaviour to give us comfort in these patterns that other is so much comfort in certainty yeah i mean it's it can be really frustrating all these sometimes all the rules and the like like his at very rigid but but will after when i left the uncertainty justice enormous wait like i had no idea like what sweet on you yeah all the sudden yak is like a again will one first of all i makes doing things like this hard or like sweden publicly at all now that it's not like me like with god
my side or whatever is the idyllic i know i'm standing on my own two feet like it's it's my own ideas and like who the hell am i right you know just that the sense of like self out and uncertainty and and like it it's it's just it's it's it can be crippling sometimes but but you just you have to keep going and keep asking a question is one of the things like he said ah i mean the whole another reason i dont like to call myself an atheist or to comment myself anything actually see the same sorry not subject to the same here's that he this video or he is saying that we should call ourselves atheists or a secular our humanist we can accomplish anything we should just be good decent people living in the world and and challenging bad ideas wherever we find them like that it's not about the eight i mean we want an identity like shore crave identity and and longing in this like the the inward
are you talking about grams like how how much goodness i got to see him than like people on the outside never saw its because that note in group out mentality like that the bought like i said earlier that bond that are ford there it so it's so enticing but but it comes at him at a huge cost and i didn't see that for a long time so now this is another reason why don't i just dont like those labels it's not about the identity is just about trying to find the best way we can to live in the world and in do as much as we can i think they're bumps in the road in the evolution of culture i think that's what they are sank we haven't figured out how dangerous they are and that that we fall prey to them they are also the reason why we got here in the first place because we did figure out these ways the bond together we did figure out wait identify we with each other in his very extreme a very personal way and if it were for those things who knows if we would have ever made it this far who now but they also devote also been able to people have been able to
rationalize horrific acts through the use of this us versus them you know that our group versus the other it's a very strange aspect of what i believe is the adolescent nature of human social and cultural evolution which is where we're out right now we ve come so far we thank but really we haven't we have really been around that long mean they're talking about this modern human being they found three hundred thousand years ago tat its blip blip so the blink of an eye in terms of the history of the world never mind the history of the universe and i think that its very dangerous when someone tells you they know is very dangerous you dont now and showed what they know how to listen to them and that's what i ve been doing for ever since and i think people are recognising more and more now that is that's not save it's dangerous it it's an impediment to progress personal prague
us progress as a community we have just is insane instinct to joint team to the point where people there if i would certain patches of dirt on all your attack since this is all ok i am from new york oh you from new york or that why get you now ray i understand you you're in this nice little category you get to operate on these predetermine pattern now you ve u dont even after have your own beliefs you just adopt a conglomeration of believes that fit whatever category you fall into with your left wing progress over right ring conservative so its words were really weird where really weird monkey were so strange and we are also aware how where we are that's as an aside that is that that's where i feel so much and why i feel so much hope right because like the more awareness we have like that the better we can all about trying to sort of shore things up like a sea the pitfalls
and then try to find ways around them like you that incredibly courageous that break out of the pattern and and and just paddle out into the want the waters of discomfort because that's what people really hard time doing people really hard time changing really our time taking chances there really hard time doing new things and you did all of it it wants in one big burst and he separated from your tribe who was so poor need these separated from your tribe that's so hard for sure but it's this is one of those things were like i mean i was talking to david after i left before the delicious festival you're sitting in the home of the strategy that had protested the earlier and end
europe as a whole was the sign my sister held in my mind i like living with this radical right actually have a ton saying what here one here you stay with a rabbi vieira by his life in their therefore how's the rabbi a whore they you think you pay them and then they feel good like they tell you what you wanna hear because you make some a whore yankees a comedian here too i must be a whore yet pariah probably they're going against the horridum prostitution they will enable give massages horse i wouldn't go they're making feel good pain relying geo it's like myself chiropractors would be horse work i cast david was like it's like you are european
and children like i am presenting their bawling an end because i felt like such arbitrariness again right after we left agenda and he said i said what do you mean he said well they're the ones who taught you to stand up for what you believe in no matter what it cost you and so i shall i love that idea then that there is still so much from home that i have held two and that that still guides me it's just that i obviously hunter is just the the things that i now think are destructive in and hurtful and just not true not not consistent with reality but that that give me a lot of like a lot of right well you you definitely see comfort and ancient wisdom and quotes whom yeah yeah what's hide like there's nothing like it so i remember i was there's a new yorker article it came out at the end of twenty fifteen answer i was doing interviews with the writer adrian chen whose amazing and he's in there
using writer just generally not just that article balikh as well in his conversations like like we spent three days together in kansas talking like maybe six hours at a time and then on the phone like the flower conversations regularly like it was so much i tried to really get across all of these all this trying to really understand exactly how my mind regional the details monitors whatever like and at one point like a not we're talking and and he my question is about the soldiers funeral i think and i immediately started like caught him these verses and liking like wow you just when did this mode like hell this is just like this like switching it is likely that i like it about the church like it's just not possible even though i think that i dont believe the bible the infallible word of god but like i said so much time like reading in a learning it in an memorizing your chapters at a time with my family and all the steps would like it
right there it's always lake and there like i said there is so much good in it so it's like i as i know you're says that better its companies when you cited such a sound so foreign to hear the king james boy to me it was just saying this conference yeah yeah yeah and its familiar and its and it's it's a part is a part of my my home when my upbringing that i then i can keep as a person side of it looking at it when someone starts spouting out biblical phrase prison terms in and using these pair balls and using these stories and passages in the bible to justify things and then equating like certain aspects of modern thinking and behaviour to those things to me it's almost like i'm looking at mathematics that i dont totally understand it's like us are you doing you put your plugging this equation and to achieve a desired result and this result is up of mind peace of mind
what you're looking to attain and you look to attain justification for your lifestyle and actions and you can do so with this quote which is essentially like you're you're you're plugging in some sort of theoretical physics mean this week stretch what i'm saying what i'm saying is dislike the feeling of it the field of it is like a lot like this will then you use this oh is that ok and makes this so we re all these little tools in order to operate the mind on a more harmonious frequency for europe personal satisfaction and you're feeling of happiness and peace like you can feel comfort in the fact that you have quoted the bible verses that explain your behavior correctly you have made the noise that contains the right order yeah and whether or not those noises makes sense at all and then when in doubt you throw in like some weird principle
that god has a plan for everything so fuck you doubts remain stick that right and their and our brains that's like dark matter where's all mass of dark matter you don't know using its an odd sort of thing because that does it our research as the uncertainty and the lack of knowledge like you don't understand it's a mad or understand together have to understand somebody else understands and also your using tools it's also a you're using these these phrases and these tools and these passages to achieve desired results internally as well as externally you're you're using them to comfort yourself but you are also using them too to prove your point against these others and that's a big part of what's going on with this whole tribalism call like behaviour its justifying your own patterns of thinking by demonizing and marginalizing other patterns of thinking yes he said
there's something that i i miss this for a long time to but like so my and father like i think i said earlier maybe that chins where some of the biggest targets at the turgenev spent so much time like a minor differences yes exactly but emily even like major differences like the hatred of god and eating and young people going to fraternity and end and why and all these things like like we we spent so much time cramps would instead of saying we are the only ones who have it right westward baptist church is the only true charging entire world and i am one hundred percent certain of that it was a different strategy it was attacked packing every other version of christianity every other under standing of of the bible so it it's like by default psych while you know exactly why all these people are wrong methodists and catholics and whatever like and you can articulate chapter and verse why they're all wrong and therefore
the end like it becomes clear like we are right and we are the only ones who are right and everybody else is so it's just this is it so frustrating so frustrating it's well i hate to use the word but it is lacking enlightenment because is doing with conflict and doing finger pointing dealing with insults like just to determine eggs god hates faxes using like that in itself it is like a giant red flag showing the errors of your thinking in order even sit down and draw this poster i didn't like this is this is not gods approach if there is a god of the bible and meaning there is a god it's in charge of this whole thing is filled with love and has a plan for us all to give a super motion only talking about the start i i
here i worked up side now don't apologize it's important look i mean it's amazing how will you keep it together without contact with your mom in your dad and brothers and sisters and has been for years along foreign ass in her last night train of thought they would sooner he said something while talking about just that the insults and ass intact cite the way i always we would say people don't it's not the method that's the point it's the message it doesn't matter how we say the message people are you're gonna hate and lack use if you say you know god grid must look at how and where were among the only ones going to heaven and sorry suckers you know like people hate that message rate people hate the idea that you have to like followed this rules you can't just leave the way you want to live you have to obey the
ideas as we understand them like people like that message then what you tell them what to do so that we would always make that argument and then of course you know after thinking about leaving us like of course it matters how you talk to people of course it does and even the bible tie about it's like you know in the new testament paul talks about to the jews i became a jew into the greeks as a greek and due to the weak i became as weak as if the idea is like you understand your audience and who you're talking to and you're actually trying to reach them you're not just self righteous in a proclaiming this thing and saying get on board or your doomed like it's it's there's there was no we had and we somehow could have arguments one on one but like you know when we got to these protests saying these things in it so provocative an inflammatory and we knew it and we just did it anyway because we thought it was justified as long as it was true minute in matter how we said it or when we set it or to who
we said it will it was a grieving widow aura ignored a child his father had just died or parents children had just died it's just it's it's insane too now i can't i have a hard time like so much of my his of my past like i know why i believe what i believe but sometimes it when i see these these contradictions i think what was i thinking when we were reading these verses and i i don't know i can't think of what they could be thinking now accept that it's just that cognitive dissonance that us just just just going past jugs oh yeah that sounds good but like not seeing in other words the talks about a deceived hardest turned them aside he can't even say is there not a lie in my right hand like that's that's the feeling but i have to go back to the according it was a great great here but anyway it's just this is why
i think we have secured a uniquely qualified to sort of translate those i that's that's the thing like i that's that's why i keep i mean i wanna keep asking the questions is not just about you know i think my family feels they feel attacked i'm sure when i talk but this and why i don't believe it and you know when i send this message on twitter and and i am i remember what felt like your hearing people a people that i had loved speak against these doctrines and values that i held so so dear but it's not because i'm trying to with them more or embarrass them more humiliate them is because i i want to help them see right if if i'm wrong about something then like i wanna know that too so it's just it's always this like openness to to change into into finding about why was you did this incredibly brave is not just leave but
when you change your thinking and change you have to admit that you fucked up data i have to admit your entire life been essentially about price we're getting a lie there was i honestly you know we are now going to work yeah that's his asylum for listening to as a kid are they was everything you know is wrong up up is down black as wide in short is long i remember like in this process of like ito before we left like ruin that envy like i can't later out of a weird ozone but yet it's totally what it just just coming to terms with like how how how wrong and how how could this have been for my entire life and how can we possibly face this like in my own mind let alone to all of these people i did it in front of the intellect the whole world you know anybody you'd see like all the doktor
raise all the times that i had so publicly defended all these ideas and now relation like how can i possibly face right and if you ever running for office as the first look at the alps in two thousand and three in a horrible thing she was what they do right yeah well i think you're our ability to say that you you don't agree with what you used to do and you are a different person now is so important for people to hear his want them important things i think you're saying because people feel so imprisoned by their past it's a huge problem with human beings that you we repeat sort of the same patterns of behaviour because even if wrong there's comfort in theirs now i've heard in going back to those cigarettes yet is comfort in in binge edi again is covered in gambling is kind know this i know this crazy rush of trying to find crack i'm alone for it i mean there's a lot of weirdness in
human behaviour patterns and what you ve done is not just have real intellectual courage too is actually challenge your own personal thought processes and ideas and look deep into the scriptures even following your whole life and find these contradictions bore these contradiction contradictions and try to debate them but also to just come out and say like i was making just big mistakes i think it's really hard to say i mean a lot of things but but two things just for people in general like i messed up there and i don't no yeah and like we have to be able to i mean i think to be able to theirs an isley like this is nothing like there's so much freedom and that in both of those ideas which i said earlier like certainty there's so much comfort and certainty later you don't hafta wonder you dont have to doubt you dont have to question you can just
go on your way and know that what you're doing is shattered lorraine and sure like there's so much comfort there but but in my experience it is a false certainty it's a false comfort because your ear you're going along if you're not if you're not examining if you're not like taking in new evidence if you're not like i don't know it's like i don't have to have all the answers that i can just say like doing my best this is where i met now like i'm i'm sure i would have liked find something i'm frightened find some that i'm that have got wrong now and they keep trying to get to keep trying to get better like you dont have become this static you know you want to be able to to grow and learn and understand and do better and as many ways as you can and you wrestling constantly with a dangerous and volatile factor that's uncertainty and that those people
avoid that sucker as much as they can like i don't want that ring just like learning to be comfortable there like i exist here and i exist in this uncertain space because its honest i don't know i have to know where i can keep trying to understand and and you know so it's one of the most the weakest things you can have seeing a person is a person talking about something in a way where like you like you ask him a question about something and they don't really know and they try to pretend they do sort pontificate where you see it instead of saint girl no true and set our ends of being like open to them possibility of anything being outside the realm of their understanding they double down double down their ignorance or they avoided at all costs you see literally see like the little the ban in the machinery the ego just but please on the guy
here's frantically we all recognize it is one of the more fascinate things to me about religion in general is that their we have this credible desire to become a part of a group we we everybody does we find comfort in these groups we also can see them the gears spinning when some when does agree with something orders someone does say something that resonates or or so when someone says something contradictor we see the gear spinning we reckon this is a whole some sort of a weird cognitive dance that we're doing to try to make make sense out of this term or existence on a planet hurling through infinity it's insane yards be but it's you and it's it's the human of today you know it's the here and where we find ourselves existing in communicating that clearly he is on some sort of a path some sort of weird path
progress and of innovation and of of understanding that we're in the middle of we're in the middle of the storm of understanding and it happening like clearly in your own life and you're living out and for the whole world let them yeah maybe it's going to wrap it up we did our two hours and forty five minutes and we stand by your brave first and i think it is really important what you doing massive really is prior to do i'm sure and the fact that twitter is i started my twitter so am i i just i cannot you you're saying earlier about like always lay a hundred forty characters like like george gesture well here's the thing like it so crazy like twitter like the fact that italy a hundred forty characters like nothing taught me how to be more i am very embryos i talk a lot
but like in writing and i do something in writing like on twitter like it tommy like distill my ideas and become concise and look at it stop me from using that was one of the things one of the ways that i stopped like insulting people instinct lake like we do we did it so much like we would write these elaborate insults like responding to emails and stuff like that was an american rights much as you want but like on twitter like so it two things at once a man and forty characters vice like throwing a you idiot like there's just additional space for it it also like when i did do that like there's this immediate feedback loop that you get so like you can watch the conversation derail in real time and then right i don't know i just do not like the convention instead i'd like addressing the arguments like then you're saying like you know you you don't know me they were seen although answer and like it just it stops anyway it's after the commerce if you want it to be about the the points are i learned so much about communication from twitter and i just love it so much like it's just a tool
like we depend on how we use it and i use a lot and i learned a lot of things on it i mean are constantly being sent articles and that's where i found out about the three hundred thousand year old human and every day someone sends me something to marry tweet it states that though we got connect then yeah big several days ago more twitter your work is coming out when i don't know i don't really know ass draft i'm going to tell you that name right now if they really want a different name ogre omen and i can tell you i wouldn't surgeon if people want to see more of your staff and you have a ted talk it's out there and rain and your account is just megan phelps
well there's gonna be the book but well when the book comes out come back area will do it again or i will tweet out your book in letter but i know anything a really jos conversation thank you so much anymore you think they will remain so brave to think a huge what you ve done is huge income for a lot of people listening to our thanks ever i see tomorrow by thank you everybody for tuna podcast and thank you too are sponsors thanks to caveman coffee go to man coffee seo dot com use a code word rogan and save ten percent thank you to zip brett crowed go to zip recruiter die come forward slash rogan and you can jobs for free thank you you also to nature box so let s on the spaced out there thanks to an age a box gotta
a box dotcom forts lash rogan for fifty percent off your first order as nature box dot com forward slash roving ok friends right that's it for today but we have one more because sebastian younger famous or journalists from his journalist period is in town you want to do the podcast so he'll be on tomorrow so that's it that's it for today and that will be the last one of the weak tomorrow and i hope he does join the shit this podcast like i did isn't she brilliant brilliant rhinos wrong legged felt and thanks also again to wheeler walker junior was earlier today and thanks to everyone it it was on this we haven't a great old time that's it lays gentlemen she soon much love by
Transcript generated on 2020-10-07.